500: Tamara Thornton—The Mother of Mach

What happens when your son drops out of MIT at 19, starts a defense company in his twenties, and sets out to reinvent the way America builds weapons? If you're Tamara Thornton, you get a job. In this episode, Mike sits down with the Head of Marketing and Communications at Mach Industries https://machindustries.com/, Tamara Thornton, who also happens to be the mother of the founder and CEO, Ethan Thornton. Ethan's decision to leave MIT and pursue his vision for Mach has led to a company now valued at $1.8 billion. But the story gets more interesting when you hear it from his mother—and learn what Ethan was like long before he became a CEO. It's a revealing and often surprising conversation about family, ambition, risk, failure, manufacturing, and the remarkable journey from a kid who liked to blow stuff up to the leader of one of America's fastest-growing defense companies. At the center of it all is a fascinating question: What happens when the son you raised becomes your boss? Shout out to our great sponsors PureTalk.com/ROWE https://bit.ly/PureTalkRowe—Switch your phone service today and enjoy your first three months of talk, text, and data for just $15 a month regardless of which plan you choose. BuildFreedom.us https://bit.ly/TWIHIxBuildFreedom—The best place to find a six-figure, AI-proof job. Build your future. Rebuild America.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Mike Rowe?

  Hey guys, a couple of weeks ago, I had a guest on here, a guy named Ethan Thornton, who dropped out of MIT when he was like 18 or 19 years old, to build a better missile. He was upset at what was happening in Ukraine, and he was concerned about what was happening in our country as well, and just felt like he could contribute in some way, use his enormous brain to build a better mousetrap, basically. Well, the response to Ethan's appearance was enormous. I've gotten thousands of comments since, from people who would like to know more about how a college dropout could go on to build a company in just a couple of years that's

• 0:46Mike Rowe?

  worth nearly $2 billion, and what he's doing down there in Huntington Beach and out there in the desert with these extraordinary weapons that he and his team of some 500 people are building as we speak. People wanted to know more, and so did I. I'm actually working on a project now with the Pentagon where we highlight companies like this, who are focused on making the Department of War more efficient at what it does, right? So I called Ethan and I said, "Look, I know a lot of what you do is classified, but what do you think? Can I show up with some cameras, maybe have a look around the factory, maybe test some of these weapons?" He said, "Sure."

• 1:29Mike Rowe?

  So, I go to see Ethan Thornton, and we spend the day filming, and it's incredible. We go out into the desert to test some of the platforms they're working on. I get a tour, I meet all these engineers who worked for extraordinary companies that are now all focused on Mach Industries, and it was great. But then, I met his Director of Communications and Marketing, this amazing woman named Tamara Diller. And as I talked to Tamara, I realized a couple of things about her job that were especially interesting, one of which was, she's Ethan's mother.

• 2:11Mike Rowe?

  So, I just, I know a lot of people who watch this podcast have kids in college. I know a lot of mothers watch this podcast. And aside from all the other things that I went there to learn from Ethan, I was also really interested in hearing from his mother about what it must have been like to have a front row seat, to see your genius kid walk away from a full-ride scholarship to one of the most prestigious engineering schools in the world, to build missiles. And I'm so glad I did it. I thought it was just gonna be a quick chat, but it kept going on for like 45 minutes.

• 2:52Mike Rowe?

  And what I learned from her about Ethan, and what I learned from Ethan about her, might be useful to some of you who are trying to figure out what to do with your kids, and how to deal with your kids, and how to think about college and their future, and maybe even the future of our country. It's just a really interesting, unexpected, great conversation that I feel really privileged to have had. They haven't talked publicly about this before, and I'm so glad they did here. This is an amazing company. Ethan's an amazing guy. In fact, you should check out the episode with him if you haven't seen it already. But his mom, his mom steals the show, in my opinion, which is why our 500th episode

• 3:37Mike Rowe?

  is called "Tamara Diller, the Mother of Mach," because she is. Enjoy. This episode of "I Hate to Say I Told You So" is sponsored by Pure Talk. Why? Because I've been bragging about Pure Talk for nearly two years. I switched a while ago, because I wanted to be in business with an American wireless company. I wanted unlimited data for the lowest price I could get, and I wanted great coverage. So, I switched, and that's what I got, and I've been bragging on them. Well, guess what? A giant survey was conducted a few months ago, the results are out. 120,000 people were asked to rate their wireless company in four categories: coverage, support,

• 4:22Mike Rowe?

  value, and data. Guess which company was the only company to get five stars in every single category? Give up? I'll give you a hint, it was Pure Talk. So yes, I told you so. It's a great company. Everything they promised, they delivered. I'm glad I switched. I hope you'll consider doing it too, because this is a great time to do that very thing. Why? Because they're offering three months of their top-tier plan, this is unlimited data, for $15 a month. It's just a great way to test drive the service. After that, it's unlimited data for as low as $34.99 a month with no contract and no commitment. It's that simple. It's an American wireless company, they stand for good things, they offer great value.

• 5:06Mike Rowe?

  I switched, I'm glad I did, you should too. This is the time to do it. puretalk.com/row. Switch today. And I told you so. Head of Marketing and Communications at Mach Industries, also known as Tamara, also known as Ethan's mom. What in the world?

• 5:46Mike Rowe?

  How many defense companies right now are being run by a boy and his mom?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  We need whiskey or something for this conversation.

• 5:57Mike Rowe?

  You mind if I just start with some obvious questions?

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 6:01Mike Rowe?

  I feel obligated to ask.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  It's good.

• 6:03Mike Rowe?

  I'm assuming you're very proud of your son?

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Of course. Super proud.

• 6:07Mike Rowe?

  You have other children as well?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Yes, super proud of them. We have, yep, three other kids.

• 6:11Mike Rowe?

  Awesome. So where does he fall in the hierarchy?

• 6:14Speaker 02

  He's the oldest.

• 6:15Mike Rowe?

  He's the oldest?

• 6:16Speaker 02

  The oldest.

• 6:17Mike Rowe?

  Alright, so your oldest boy is playing football, if I remember right, MIT, he's there for a year, and at some point, he has some epiphany, and I'm just imagining there's a moment where he comes to his mom and says, "Hey, I'm thinking maybe this way instead of this way."

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35Mike Rowe?

  I would just love to hear, because I know that other parents are watching and probably wondering that...

• 6:41Speaker 02

  How does that land?

• 6:42Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, yeah. How do you digest all that?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  I think you back up, and it was one semester, he was at MIT for one semester. So, my husband moves him in to start football, and then I go a couple of weeks later, so we're still in like late August, early September, and we're in the Uber to go eat dinner. I haven't seen him in a month, and how's football, how's MIT, how are all the things? And he's in the Uber, and he's like, "Oh my gosh, this guy, this guy from Lincoln Lab emailed me back, I can't believe it." And I'm there for three days, and all I hear about is Lincoln Labs.

• 7:18Mike Rowe?

  And just so people understand, Lincoln Labs is associated with MIT?

• 7:23Speaker 02

  It's kind of like their defense lab.

• 7:25Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. But like, off-campus?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we got kicked way off-campus.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Way off-campus. He had been in touch with a professor, who then put him in touch with Lincoln Labs, and just, you know, the obsession, Ethan's a little bit obsessive about things, so...

• 7:41Mike Rowe?

  Is he?

• 7:42Speaker 02

  He is, he is.

• 7:43Mike Rowe?

  Is he?

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yes. You go back to high school, he's blowing things up in the garage. He comes to us and he's like, "Hey, can you help me file a patent?" His junior year, and I'm like, "That's weird." Yeah, sure.

• 7:54Mike Rowe?

  Sorry, quick sidebar. What kind of things has he blown up in the garage?

• 7:58Speaker 02

  I don't even, he had like an electrolyzer?

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Solid rocket motors, lots of those.

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Well, the can't, what did you call them?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, the shoulder cannon thing, hydrogen electrolyzer, making compressed...

• 8:10Mike Rowe?

  Bazooka, basically.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, football bearings.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  There's a lot going on in high school. We're experimenting a lot. He gets into MIT, and I will just say, like, Gabe and I were like, "Oh my God, this is amazing." And I really and truly were like, he needs to be in a lab with somebody that knows what to do with him. And so he's gonna go to MIT, and he's gonna have a professor, and they are gonna geek out and do deep science things, and he's gonna be safe, because right now, he's just, I mean, there's a lot going on.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Because before, you had shut it down, rightfully so. You remember that conversation?

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I do.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  It's like junior year.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I blew up a bunch of solid rocket motor in the garage.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  So I had an angle grinder, and I was working on a knife. I was being stupid, and I had just poured like 20 pounds of solid rocket motors. I just see streaks of metal flying past me, and then the whole room turned white. It turns out like 20 pounds of solid rocket motor had lit off behind me. And so after that, rightfully so, she was like, "No more."

• 9:11Mike Rowe?

  I mean, dude, they really burned the house down.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Shut it down. Yep.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  It was bad.

• 9:17Mike Rowe?

  How old were you?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  I was 17, I think, that was your junior year.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Solid rocket motor was junior, yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  I go outside, and it's like, smoking.

• 9:23Mike Rowe?

  Are you worried about your son at this point? Or are you just like, you know, "Okay, so maybe we got a genius, but he needs some parameters?"

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yes, it's more that, I mean, like, all of our kids, like, they each, we have obsessive kids, like, all four of them have like the thing that they're interested in, and we're big on growing that. Like, great, to a point where you're gonna blow the house up, and then you're like, "Let's not do that anymore."

• 9:50Mike Rowe?

  So, but, I mean, the fundamental decision you have to make... Is do you encourage or do you discourage? You probably don't want to enable, but you have to make a parental decision.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, like you walk it with them. I think like as a parent, like know your kid. Walk through the phases that they're going through, like his MIT application. You know, how is it going? What are you doing? What are you working on? What are you submitting? And so then he gets an MIT. Super celebratory. That's amazing. And I'll never forget, I think it's like February 22nd. Russia invades Ukraine and you watch your kid like break a little bit. And looks around and is like, who's, who's doing something? Like what, what's the plan? And you know, you're in your 40s and you're like, I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the plan is.

• 10:37Mike Rowe?

  Were you, were you surprised that he cared as deeply as he did about something so far away and so geopolitical?

• 10:46Speaker 02

  No, no. Ethan was, I mean, the kids were all like raised on CNN and Fox News. My husband and I are super into geopolitics. We find it interesting. It's important to be informed. And so like, that was like kind of the sun up to sun down background noise of our house. We like to know what's going on in the world and you know, my brothers are both in the military. So of course we track it with that. You look at people that you care about and you look at like, what's the outcome? Like, are we going to get involved? What's the end game for Russia? What does this look like? And, and it's a not great feeling to have those questions coming from your kid. And you're like, I, I don't know.

• 11:26Mike Rowe?

  You're not sure.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know how this is going to go.

• 11:28Mike Rowe?

  I just wonder how many other 18, 19 year old, it was 18 at the time?

• 11:32Speaker 02

  He was 18.

• 11:33Mike Rowe?

  Right. Yeah. How many other 18 year kids are like tossing and turning, really wondering about the fate of Ukraine? I mean, it's a short list.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I think a lot do.

• 11:42Mike Rowe?

  Most of them are in the, in the service. They've got skin in the game.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Or folks worry a lot about it and are realistic and say, hey, what can I actually do about this?

• 11:50Speaker 02

  Well, and to be fair, he was about to go to MIT on an Air Force ROTC scholarship. So he wasn't entirely like disconnected from, you know, how is this going to land on our doorstep?

• 12:01Mike Rowe?

  You're, so you're playing football. You're in ROTC. You, you're at MIT. Like you've got a lot going on.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  There's a lot going on.

• 12:10Mike Rowe?

  And, and this thing happens over in, in Europe.

• 12:15Speaker 02

  So yeah, he was still at home when that happened.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  It's high school.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was February that Russia invaded and then he goes to MIT in August. Goes up for football and then, you know, fast forward to where we started the conversation. I show up and I'm like, super excited. Show me your dorm room, all the things. And he's like, I don't care about any of that. You know, we go to dinner with a cute mom and her football son, who ultimately he interned here. And we're, we're talking about like the first game and he's oblivious, like totally oblivious. And Drew's like, yeah, dude, uh, the game's on Saturday. And he goes like, I can't go to the game. And I'm like, Ethan.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  I ended up going to the game.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  He, he did. He went to the game.

• 12:59Mike Rowe?

  Under duress.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  Under, I mean, I was like, you're not missing this game. So by the time December rolled around, there had been numerous indications that maybe this wasn't like what was going to happen. Despite, I mean, really, when he got in, Gabe and I were like high fiving. You know, frankly, we're not like big check the box people. Like I did, great that you went to MIT. That's awesome. But mostly like he found a spot where he can grow and if he blows things up, he'll be in a lab.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  I think it's important to add color on that time too. You always emphasize super hard, it doesn't matter what you do.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Do it really well.

• 13:38Mike Rowe?

  That's her advice to you growing up?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 13:40Mike Rowe?

  Doesn't matter what you do?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Like.

• 13:42Mike Rowe?

  Do it well.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Yes. Whatever the job is, all the jobs have to get done. I just care that you're excellent at the thing you choose to spend your life on. And I think for you, it was probably very exciting because I had been flying all over the place. And this was supposed to be, and largely was this very aligning function.

• 13:58Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, it's always super exciting when your oldest son drops out of a prestigious engineering school. Maybe the biggest one in the world.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  It's entirely paid for.

• 14:05Mike Rowe?

  It's entirely paid for.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  And you're a patriotic family and you're like, oh my gosh, you're going to go serve your country.

• 14:10Mike Rowe?

  Must be very exciting for you.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, we were, it was like a great.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  You responded better than I would have.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  It was a great four months. I'm telling you, we were like high fiving ourselves every day.

• 14:18Mike Rowe?

  What do you mean? How, how would you have responded?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  How do you think you responded? Cause I have my, we've never had this conversation.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  No, we've really never talked about it.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  This is a phone call too. We weren't even in person.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you remember though, like the weekend in August, we're kind of having a moment where we're not, we're not agreeing on what things look like. It's about this football game. Is he going to go or is he going to follow this Lincoln lab things? We're a little spicy. Ethan and I are both like pretty.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  We can get into it.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  We can.

• 14:44Mike Rowe?

  You're candid.

• 14:45Speaker 02

  We can make, we have a very authentic.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  You went to state and debate.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. I like to argue.

• 14:51Mike Rowe?

  A debater.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  But so Gabe, Ethan's dad is like the nicest human on the planet and he's like super diplomatic. And so we're sitting at this like countertop deli in Cambridge. And I'm like, okay, like we're not going to agree on what's going to happen. And so we have an AirPod in this ear and then Ethan has my, the AirPod in his ear. And Gabe's like, what's happening? What are you doing? And so we kind of started calibrating a little bit. You know, imagining like maybe a year or two years. And you fast forward to, to December and Ethan calls and he's like, I'm not, I'm not doing it. And like, you know, your kids and like the tone when they're like, uh, this is what's happening.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:34Mike Rowe?

  How long were you certain that you weren't going to do it?

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Here's the conversation we've never had.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Oh, great.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:41Speaker 02

  This is so fun.

• 15:42Mike Rowe?

  I'm here to make things as awkward as I can.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  Therapist, this is super fun. I love it.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Largely before I went. I mean, in like February of that year, after Ukraine. I wasn't living a facade, but I wasn't sure and I was nervous to tell you.

• 15:58Mike Rowe?

  He was giving you the slow no.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Um, it was probably within like two or three weeks of being there. Specifically Ash and I hanging out. I knew like 95% at that point. And I think it was probably October that I called, called you. I remember sitting on the basketball court.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  It was November.

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Maybe November, yeah. And I think, I think you responded super well. I think you're just sad. You're scared for me, which is a good reaction. Actually like a, a good reaction for me to hear.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was definitely not disappointment. It was definitely not like frustration. It's just you are walking into, you know, I know enough to be dangerous about how cutthroat, competitive, bureaucratic, anything in defense procurement is.

• 16:38Mike Rowe?

  Sure.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  You're choosing the most difficult sector at potentially the most difficult time. You're 19. We do not have connections. Like you are on your own. You're like, good luck.

• 16:52Mike Rowe?

  There's no good old boy plan.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  We don't know.

• 16:54Mike Rowe?

  He's not a Yale grad.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:56Mike Rowe?

  He's not going to.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  No.

• 16:57Mike Rowe?

  Start making calls.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  No, if he wanted to play, you know, Aggie football, Gabe's parents, great. Like we could, you know, like pick a thing, but that's not what he's doing. And so then it's just like, you're just, you know, it's going to be so hard.

• 17:10Mike Rowe?

  I'm, I'm, I'm listening to this and I'm thinking about all the kids who dropped what they were doing in 1941 after Pearl Harbor. Right? I'm thinking about all the young people who dropped what they were doing after 911 to join. You look at Ukraine and Russia. Drop what you're doing to start a defense company. That's different.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I felt like I was kind of yelling into the void and I still do a bit. Right? Like, I think you see what's happening in Ukraine and you can draw a very clear line to where things are headed. And you can wait for Pearl Harbor to happen. Or you can very clearly say, this is the direction the world is headed in. Let me, let me start as soon as I possibly can to try and get ahead of it. I was doing ROTC for a reason. I tried really hard to do Lincoln Labs for a reason. There's nothing like, it wasn't like, let me go and start a company.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you explored every avenue.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  I was trying so hard to work within, within it to get it done. It just, it wasn't going to happen because we're, we were massively sleepwalking then. We're still sleepwalking today. And at some point you have to step back and be like, this is the only path. It's, it's almost certainly not going to happen, but at least I can say that the second I knew that this was the path things were headed on, I went and did something about it.

• 18:35Mike Rowe?

  Fifteen years ago, I went to Washington DC to testify before Congress. I wanted to see if they would join me in a national effort to reinvigorate the skilled trades. After a few hundred dirty jobs, I'd seen the reality of a widening skills gap, and I thought it'd be important to make a more persuasive case for a long list of essential jobs that didn't require a four-year degree. Anyway, it took a while, but the government has gotten back to me. And today, I'm super excited to tell you about buildfreedom.us. This is the best place to find an AI-proof, six-figure trade job today. What kind of job? The kind that lets you build something awesome.

• 19:19Mike Rowe?

  We're talking about opportunities in the defense industrial base. This is, this is the next generation of workers who will build the next generation of fighter jets and ships and drones and choppers and tanks and weapon systems and satellites and autonomous submarines. Build Freedom has also awarded my foundation, MicroWorks, $10 million in scholarship funds, which we have set aside to pay for the training that you will need to get started in one of these jobs. The money's waiting, along with thousands of AI-proof, six-figure jobs. Go get one at buildfreedom.us. Buildfreedom.us.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  And you've said that forever. You're like, I can at least always rest in knowing that I tried my hardest.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  And that I didn't just not do anything.

• 20:11Mike Rowe?

  But how do you wind up? So it's like, stage one, okay, I accept it. This is what he's gonna do. Stage two, you know what? I'm going along with him. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be in the company. Like, how does that?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  So that was a weird...

• 20:25Speaker 01

  Can I tell my side of that? Because I don't think I've talked through my side.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Sure, no, no.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I'm sorry. I just don't know if I've ever told you my side.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  No, I'd love to.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Because I called her first to make it happen.

• 20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:34Mike Rowe?

  So you, like, you, you offered to hire your mom?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  I had no idea what I was doing. So there are times when the, the company has a slope and you have a slope. And ideally, your slope is higher and you're above the company. But sometimes those things cross. And suddenly, the company has a higher slope of what you're capable of doing, and those are extremely painful times. So we were in Boston, I dropped out. We're in Boston, a few of my buddies, I knew what I was doing, I could do that. I had this incredible investor step up. We had raised like $6 million. His name is Jeff Lewis. He steps up.

• 21:09Mike Rowe?

  Where's he come from? What's his deal?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  He was in Austin. He's a, he's a major investor. He's been at a few big firms. He got tired of the VC version of sort of that system.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  He's with Bedrock.

• 21:19Mike Rowe?

  Okay.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  And started his own fund. But anyway, he and I meet, and he's like obsessive about like, I think this is gonna, gonna lead to something. And in a time when it was basically impossible to back mock, he, he steps in in the craziest way, which this is kind of a diversion, but becomes important for this story. He says, I want to write you, it was like a $100 million check at $750 million. It was like five of us. I'm like, Jeff, this like objectively doesn't make sense. This isn't a rational valuation. What, what's going on? And he said, basically, if you're going to succeed in this industry, you need, you need capital to go and win. He tries to invest at 750. I was like, man, that's gonna kill the company because we're gonna have several down rounds. Let's do 335, whatever. Russ, that happens.

• 21:59Mike Rowe?

  No, wait, I'm sorry. But why, why do you know what you're talking about with regard to venture finance startups?

• 22:06Speaker 02

  That will never make sense.

• 22:07Mike Rowe?

  What does that, like, why, why does he know this?

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Like, there are some things that I'm like, maybe this is from that. But his business acumen, I'm like, I mean, Gabe, Gabe was in banking for a while. And so he would have like deep dive finance conversations. But the venture capital dynamic and just being able to navigate that ecosystem?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  It's all people.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Like, everything is physics and people. And if you can think about how people think about stuff. Anyway, he steps up and he says to me, literally as I'm signing the term sheet, I ended up like, we, this all happened in the course of like one meeting. As I'm signing the term sheet, he says to me, there's a massive chance that this kills the company. Because it sounds great to give this much capital, and it was great. Like, there are like several like company-making moments. And one I will always owe to this dude is the fact that he stepped up and did this. But also, VC comes with the expectation because they only have such a fun return lifecycle. And if you don't go and make it happen, very, very, very quickly, you're dead. Like, with that, you've got many years to go and figure this out. Certainly, if, if, if I had started with money. But with VC, there's pressure. And so he realized that very, very quickly,

• 23:10Speaker 01

  I would have to go from like my buddies and I, like messing around with 3D printers to like building a real defense company in like 12 months if we're gonna survive. The thing he said to me is, this is almost certainly gonna kill the company because the company's slope is gonna be a lot higher than yours. But I think you're capable of getting it done. And then he dove in and gave me like a few pieces of advice. The hardest piece of advice he gave, I don't know if I've ever told you this.

• 23:32Mike Rowe?

  It's an exclusive.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  This is very exciting.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  The one piece of advice he gave is, one, you're gonna be horrible at managing your schedule. You need an assistant who can help you just be a normal human being. And then, two, you should hire your mom because she'll keep you anchored. Like, the, the gravity of, of what this is gonna lead to and the ability to not lose yourself. One, money, I'm not drawn to money. That's a gravity. But being in the system, like being in the politics of the system and seeing just how insanely evil a lot of what goes on in, in industry and in our government is, your odds are you lose yourself. So anchor yourself as quickly as possible. Bring your mom in to, to walk you through that process and frankly, hold, hold you accountable and yell at you a lot.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  You're welcome.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  When you're drifting. And that has certainly happened. But I don't think I ever told you that. That's the start of the whole thing.

• 24:25Speaker 02

  No, that's, that's fascinating.

• 24:27Mike Rowe?

  That's amazing.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's really cool.

• 24:29Mike Rowe?

  Two quick follow-ups to you. He's not attracted to money. You must have known that.

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 24:35Mike Rowe?

  Did you know that money was attracted to him?

• 24:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 24:39Mike Rowe?

  What does it feel like as a mom to see an investor like Jeff?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Jeff.

• 24:45Mike Rowe?

  Throw that kind of dough at a teenager who, I don't know, our mutual friend Alex, quick sidebar, Alex Epstein. When I talked to him about you initially, he was like, Mike, you're gonna like him for all these reasons, but you're gonna love him because he has clarity of purpose. There are people today, smart people, who look at the whole Ukraine thing from every side, and they've kicked the tires in every way. And they still can't really come to a definitive feeling. They still can't form a consensus. You, like, the thing that's buried in everything we're talking about

• 25:28Mike Rowe?

  is that you saw a headline and you immediately knew you had to do something, which turned out to be everything. You had to do everything.

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:37Mike Rowe?

  And then you had to help him. It feels like a great American...

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Can I answer this one?

• 25:42Speaker 01

  You answer this one. I think we'll have different answers. You answer first.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Just because I'm, I always say this to him. Sometimes when we get sideways, I'm like, I have known you longer than you have known you. So I get to decide how you feel about this. The clarity of purpose comes down to, and this is why it's important, this is a defense company, because you have to fundamentally understand what you are defending. And the thing that has always been consistent is the value of a human, the value of an individual, the value of a life. And he, and you know, and say, hopefully, I mean, all of my kids understand, like, that each person, regardless of,

• 26:28Speaker 02

  pick a thing, your disability, your income level, your job, your pedigree, it doesn't matter, people matter. And you, you extrapolate that from, you know, I mean, I got this insane, super kind email in eighth grade of Ethan being nice. I mean, I could give you a laundry list of people that are like, Ethan did da-da-da-da-da, that was so nice. He stood up for this person. He did this, like, but at the end of the day, like, you see what happens in Ukraine. And people can litigate that 10 ways to Sunday. Should we be there? Were they corrupt? Pick a thing. At the end of the day, people's individual freedoms were being attacked. And so...

• 27:07Mike Rowe?

  Trampled.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Trampled. And where are other places in the world that that's potentially going to happen? And are we able to defend people? Are we able to love people? Are we able to make sure that they are safe and protected? And that's the clarity. Like, that's why, that's my take.

• 27:23Mike Rowe?

  How important was it to you to know that you had your mom's, not, not just approval, but, I mean, backing? Like, she, it's...

• 27:34Speaker 01

  I think it is of the absolute utmost important, maybe more important than almost anything in my life, to know that she trusts and agrees with the reason I'm making decisions. I actually think on specific decisions made through that framework, we disagree quite often. But her knowing that I'm making them for the right reason is, I think, the, the important thing.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  And I think it's okay to disagree. Like, we... Well, but I think also, like, I-

• 28:04Mike Rowe?

  You should argue about this right now.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  I don't have- I don't have a vested interest in any outcome, really. Like, I want the company to succeed. I love my coworkers. I really do. I work with the best people. I want this to be a massively successful company. And I want to ship weapons that are enormously helpful to America and our allies. But at the end of the day, I'm going to, one, hold him accountable, and two, watch out for him. In a way that, like, nobody else is gonna do that. I'm gonna try to look around. I'm gonna miss things. I'm gonna fail, and that happens, you know, often. But I don't think you're gonna get, like, a more authentic, like, "Why are you doing this?" Like, "I'm not here for the money."

• 28:48Mike Rowe?

  Well, apparently, you guys are deeply opposed to filthy lucrative. But aside from the mom thing, is this fun?

• 28:58Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 29:00Mike Rowe?

  Like, as a job? Like, forget he's your son. If you would just decided, ah, you know-

• 29:04Speaker 02

  I don't know that I ever say this to him, but Sarah can vouch for this. Oscar, I say this probably once a week. Like, "This would be my dream job if it wasn't my son's company." Kind of like a tagline.

• 29:15Mike Rowe?

  This would be my dream job if it wasn't my son's company. And now it's just, it's-

• 29:20Speaker 01

  It's an okay job.

• 29:21Mike Rowe?

  It's something.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  No, it's fine. No, I just, like, everything that is stressful in a job, like, jobs are stressful, even when they're great, even when they're hyper fulfilling. Like, they're still stressful. But everything that I do, I have to look at at the lens, I mean, specifically, like, in comms and marketing, like, what's the story we're telling? What are we doing? It also, I have to look at it through the lens of how it's going to, like, personally impact my kid. And I don't care if you are 90 years old, your instinct is going to be to protect your kid.

• 29:53Mike Rowe?

  Mama bear stuff.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're going to try, but there are times when I have to suspend that, like, intentionally suspend that, and, you know, know that things are going to play out the way that they're, that they need to play out. And it is, like, I mean, painful, sounds dramatic, but it's a little complicated.

• 30:14Mike Rowe?

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. Gabe hears it all the time, every day. So, yeah, super supportive about it, and that's great.

• 30:21Mike Rowe?

  I think I've learned two things today about you. And I, tell me if I'm wrong, because I don't think you'd say this out loud, but I think you find it annoying that you're constantly described as the 22-year-old guy who's running a very consequential company. I think you probably find it annoying that the $2 billion valuation that Mark is currently enjoying also worms its way into the headlines. And I don't want to annoy you, but what I'm trying to get at is, everybody watching this is fascinated by all the stuff that normally gets built into that headline. But to me, though, it's way more interesting.

• 31:04Mike Rowe?

  This is the most interesting dynamic I've ever seen in my life.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Cheers.

• 31:11Mike Rowe?

  Ever.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  We're total weird-

• 31:13Mike Rowe?

  You are so weird, man.

• 31:15Speaker 02

  That, thank you.

• 31:16Mike Rowe?

  If nothing else, if nothing else, America needs to understand that a truly consequential defense company, that is absolutely dedicated to everything our country ought to feel good about, exists because the parents of this guy had the good sense to step back and let him change the road he was on, and then maybe the even better sense to jump in and stay as close as they could. I don't know. I mean, is file it under patriotism, file it under-

• 31:48Speaker 02

  I think file it under family and support, which is part of building an amazing country. And that's super kind. It's complicated. We cannot, will not, do not take credit for, like, this guy grinds it out 24/7.

• 32:02Mike Rowe?

  He slept two hours last night.

• 32:03Speaker 02

  Takes on the world.

• 32:04Mike Rowe?

  He slept two hours last-

• 32:05Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, and sometimes it's far worse.

• 32:09Mike Rowe?

  No, Tamara, understand, I mean, you were there.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:12Mike Rowe?

  We're out in the desert. I just learned that we gotta get up at 4:30 in the morning to go to a launch that probably won't happen.

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:20Mike Rowe?

  Now, it's 11 o'clock. We've just eaten some questionable food. I'm very tired. And your son has questions about AI. He's got questions about, hmm, how are we gonna manage, like, a whole list of issues that haven't even happened yet.

• 32:36Speaker 02

  I think we nominated you for president.

• 32:38Speaker 01

  We did do that.

• 32:39Mike Rowe?

  You're trying to suck me into politics, too. Like, all this nonsense.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  I don't know if I can say that, like, super loud, but I heard that you're running.

• 32:46Mike Rowe?

  That's a filthy lie, woman. It's a filthy lie. I am not now, nor have I ever been running. In fact, there's my ride. I gotta go.

• 32:59Mike Rowe?

  Here's a crazy idea. What if there was an academy out there that paid students to learn instead of the other way around? Specifically, men and women who want to work in the skilled trades. And what if this academy not only paid for your training, but also covered all the expenses associated with your training, like, travel and food and lodging? And finally, what if this academy guaranteed you a job at the end of the training period? Well, that's exactly what's happening at America's Workforce Academy by Meta. This is a five-week, highly immersive, pre-apprenticeship program that gets you all the necessary certifications you'll need to start a career in the skilled trades immediately.

• 33:41Mike Rowe?

  I'm talking about AI-proof, six-figure jobs, helping to build out the new infrastructure that our economy is depending on. Electricians, plumbers, HVAC techs, welders, fiber optic technicians. These jobs, they are all in demand like never before. And again, every graduate of America's Workforce Academy is guaranteed a job on a Meta website. I first announced this program a few months ago, and I have been watching the response ever since. It's extraordinary. This is a nationwide, unprecedented fast track to a long-term career in a skilled trade. If you, or your spouse, or your kid, or your grandkid

• 34:23Mike Rowe?

  are looking for a straight path into a career with no cost at all, check out the opportunities for yourself at meta.com/americasworkforceacademy. That's meta.com/americasworkforceacademy. Look, the point I was trying to make-

• 34:40Speaker 02

  We're gonna start interviewing you now.

• 34:41Mike Rowe?

  I don't, look, we sleep two hours. We wake up, we go to the desert, and he tells me, he's up till, what, you're up 2:00 in the morning?

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:51Mike Rowe?

  Thinking, thinking about a tangential conversation we had prior to this. So, this was a very long day. You slept two hours. He seems to do this a lot.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  It's pretty daily.

• 35:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Unfortunately.

• 35:06Mike Rowe?

  You said, like, three times, you've never talked about this. Not to each other, but on camera. So, you're very protective of him. You're very protective of the company. You're managing marketing and communications. Why did you let us come out here with cameras?

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Well, okay, to your point that you were making earlier, and to the point of why my job is complicated, if he's not my son, then a normal marketing person is going to index on, he's 22, and it's a $2 billion company.

• 35:37Mike Rowe?

  Correct.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  That's what you're gonna sell.

• 35:39Mike Rowe?

  Correct.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  It's so marketable.

• 35:40Mike Rowe?

  Correct.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  And the fact that it pains him so much-

• 35:43Speaker 01

  And I should explain why.

• 35:45Mike Rowe?

  Nah, it's all right. Your mom's okay. Never interrupt your mother.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  You're good. No, it does, like, it is, there's so much more to this story. Like, it is such a good story. And it's, you know, it's certainly Ethan's story, but it's 450 coworkers who are literally showing up, grinding it out, doing impossible things. The impossible things I have seen people do at this company is wild. Like, people wouldn't even believe it.

• 36:13Mike Rowe?

  I'm stunned.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  So, you have an opportunity, like, let's go talk to the people in the company that, you know, I think he's great, obviously, I think he's very talented. But he is surrounded by a lot of people who make the entirety of the story.

• 36:30Mike Rowe?

  I don't know you well enough to say this, but I'll say it anyway. It's back to the clarity of purpose. Those people I talked to today all admire you, and I don't, I don't know that it's because of what you built. I think it's because you have certainty on something that is consequential. And I think, I think most people don't. And we're flailing around, you know? We don't, we just don't have that clarity of purpose.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 36:59Mike Rowe?

  And it's weird. It's the kind of quality you'd wanna have in a boss, I think.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Appreciate it.

• 37:06Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, you're welcome. Now, you've been dying to say something. Go ahead.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  No, I wanna, it's not that important, but I wanna say why I hate it. I don't know if I've ever said-

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  It's, it distracts. Like, it distracts from the mission of the company. And then my main reason I've been so excited to have you out is, unfortunately, I'm the one that gets their time. I'm the one that gets to go on the podcasts. And I do one 450th of the work here. And so, the awesome thing is, one, how do you not make it about some stupid fleeting valuation or some stupid fleeting age? Neither of which really matter that much in the mission you're doing. And then, two, the fact that we got to walk you around and you got to meet folks at the company and talk to people, people like Spencer's, people like Josh, who are like, actually the ones that make things happen.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Like, my job is sort of to, like, get them capital, set a direction, and then, like, clear the way for them to do the actual work. And that's awesome, to be able to highlight that.

• 38:09Mike Rowe?

  I was reading the comments after you came on my podcast, both on YouTube and all the socials. They're very complimentary. And people who don't know you, who have never heard of you, never heard of Mark, are so heartened. They're just heartened. And look, man, it's not, it's not your fault. That you're 22 and it's not your fault that you attract money. But the way you've handled it makes people feel really good about the country. And it gives them hope. And, and, and I think the way you sort of dealt with all of this too, you know, I, I mean,

• 38:51Mike Rowe?

  my little foundation, there's not a day goes by, I don't hear from parents.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 38:56Mike Rowe?

  Who are like, you know what, thank you for making it okay for my kid to, to do this.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 39:02Mike Rowe?

  Because we didn't know how to do it. And I think a lot of parents kind of struggle and wrestle with that. And you, I just think you know something.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Well, I think you have an entire society, like one, um, you guys have talked about it, but my parents didn't go to college and they are both incredibly brilliant people. My mom to this day, like her, her mental math is like unparalleled. My dad didn't go to college and has built multiple airplanes. Like I've seen really highly intelligent people who don't have a check the box degree. I went into it, you know, a little, a little bit seeing that and, and Gabe agrees. But I think, you know, you start sending kids to school in second grade, wear your favorite university T-shirt and you start down a pathway that tells them that that's, that's success.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  I read a book, Ethan's freshman year, that if I could recommend to anybody, it's called, um, oh my gosh, I just went blank.

• 40:02Mike Rowe?

  It really made an impression, didn't it?

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Oh my goodness. It's called, um.

• 40:06Mike Rowe?

  Changed your life?

• 40:07Speaker 02

  It's not imperfect sheep. I just bought it for Cooney.

• 40:10Mike Rowe?

  Imperfect sheep?

• 40:11Speaker 02

  No, it's called excellent sheep. That's the name of it.

• 40:14Mike Rowe?

  Excellent sheep?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Excellent sheep, yes. But it's talking about like, you're a bunch of sheep and you're just going to keep going and you're going to qualify to get to the next thing and you're going to think that's the end. And then suddenly they, we, whomever are 40 years old and just recognize they've never one day done a thing that they were meant to do, that they were passionate about. And so back to how did we feel when Ethan calls and he's like, I'm dropping out of MIT? Super scared, like that's terrifying. Like what's your path? What's the plan? What's the trajectory? You know, he said on a podcast, I cried. That is true. Because I knew people were going to be mean to him. I read the comment, it, I will say your viewers are lovely. They're like, we're praying for you. I was like, literally choked up.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  It was, and I want them to know, like, that meant the world to me.

• 41:04Mike Rowe?

  I, I erase all the bad ones.

• 41:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there are, you know, you read this stuff and I'm like, gosh, he's like, what are we doing? Like, why are you so mean? And, and it's been closer even than that. People are going to sell you out. Unfortunately, people are not always super kind. But the counter to that is not doing the thing that you're passionate about. And if you're a parent and you would rather have your kid get a degree in philosophy, when you know they want to hold, create, touch and make something tangible. And you decide to saddle yourself with debt to send them to college? Or you saddle worse your kid because I don't want to be ugly to parents, but I am one.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  And so to some degree, you saddle your ego to your, to your child and, and what they've achieved and somehow that becomes your achievement. And unless you break that and step away and say like, this is your life, this is what you're meant to do. I would rather have the kid that is a plumber and super happy owning his own house at 30 years old with three cute kids than a philosophy degree. And they can't afford to buy a house because they're still saddled with debt with a degree that they can't get a job earning more than $40,000. Like we have choices and, and it doesn't quite make sense.

• 42:26Mike Rowe?

  When, when you were talking about your granddad, was that her dad?

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's my dad. He, yeah, he put me in the, the back of the ultralight. I can't believe we told that story.

• 42:35Mike Rowe?

  What was the biggest thing you learned from your dad that you think you've been able to pass on?

• 42:40Speaker 02

  Oh man. I mean, I would say both of my parents, really. They're just zero ego people. Like do hard work and, and, and don't look to that as your true north. Like be super convicted about why you're doing something.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  And Shelley deserves as much, if not more credit than Ralph.

• 42:58Speaker 02

  My mom, I have to tell you, like, my parents still farm. My mom is about to be 70, 70 and 74, and they still farm our farm, the two of them. I mean, they're like the toughest humans. You know, on the one hand, Gabe's parents, um, both worked at Texas A&M. And so, you know, getting to see that entire ecosystem and be a part of that and then having kind of the agrarian background and, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Made for like a really, I think, like unique perspective about where you kind of choose your trajectory. Like abundant respect on all of it, but there are a lot of right ways to get to, or a lot of different ways to get to the right path.

• 43:42Mike Rowe?

  Yeah, not one path.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  There's not one path. And, you know, like growth mindset is such a cliche, but when it comes to, I mean, you have an entire life. And so, you know, these kids and these parents that are afraid to pivot or afraid to like take a chance and you know what? Go, go take two years and see how it goes. Go save up money so that you're not saddled with debt. Go find out what you're passionate about and then decide. Like you don't have to at 18 say like, this is my thing. He would have just graduated from MIT with a degree in, the, the funniest thing he said on a knock to SpaceX, but in that same conversation, do you remember you said, I don't want to work at SpaceX and work on one bolt the rest of my life.

• 44:26Speaker 01

  SpaceX has gotten a lot of hate during this conversation. Not this conversation, the whole thing. I need to say for SpaceX, I also think Mach wouldn't exist, and I said this to you earlier off camera. Without watching Elon land the two Falcon Heavy boosters at the same time.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  So I think there's, I think there's balance in that.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  But in terms of like what you want to do with your life and like.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Creative impetus behind it and.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Go cut your own path.

• 44:51Speaker 02

  Well, and, and for Elon to pave a path that hopefully Mach inspires some 10 or 12 year old kid right now and they see Viper flying and they see all these 22 year old engineers and techs and they're building awesome things that are defending our country. Like.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  And I'm sure it'll be a lot cooler than what we're building and hopefully a lot better.

• 45:13Mike Rowe?

  And that's how it goes though.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's all you can ask for.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:17Mike Rowe?

  All we can do is point our cameras at the, at the stories we think are interesting and the people we think are unusual and impactful with respect. You have to understand that part of the thing that, that makes people so hopeful in the, in the comments you're talking about, it's, it's, it's the very things that you're hesitant to embrace. They see something in themselves, they see something in their own kids. You know, you, you're, you're inconvenient for a lot of 22 year olds who, who don't have the, the clarity of purpose, who don't have these, these things. But you know what? None of that's your problem. None of that. That's just, that's just noise.

• 46:02Speaker 01

  And I think we can all be excellent, right? Like all, all I can hope for is, and I, I, I hope it's a different path. I, I hope no one tries to replicate it or do anything other than, than wake up and realize. I think, I think we're sold this, this story today, um, that you have to sell out at some point. Or that, that if you don't, you get crushed by the machine. And it's funny in your, in your comments, the only negative comments are saying that you all bankrolled the company.

• 46:29Speaker 02

  Right. Oh, those are my favorites. They're like daddy's money. I'm like, so funny.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Which is kind of my biggest reason for doing this. Not because I, I care. Someone can think that like y'all funded the company, someone can think X, Y, or Z. But it's, it's important to me that, that everyone realizes, and it doesn't, it doesn't matter what it is, but you, you can, you can wake up and choose to have agency. Whatever you're doing in life, like go, go, go do it incredibly well. We, we live in a capitalist, like constitutional republic. And in that framework, i- if enough people wake up and just choose to do that, choose to work on the right missions, choose to, to, to, to vote deeply. Don't, don't go and watch two YouTube shorts and vote on that.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Like go read the policy. Invest in the right companies. Like if you go and do those three things alone, it's hard. Alone, it's hard. I mean, I've gotten incredibly lucky, 99 out of 100 times doing what I did wouldn't be here today. And I'm, I'm still hour one and it, who knows how the story ends. But it doesn't matter how big the impact is. If everyone steps up and chooses to do that thing, then a lot of the things we consider pressures today that make it impossible or, or perceived to be impossible to do that thing. Like if, if enough people step up, you, you do fix that over time. And so that's my biggest reason for doing this is, is, is to show that like, one, I haven't sold out and I'll never fucking sell out. Two, sorry.

• 48:03Mike Rowe?

  In front of your mother, dude, really?

• 48:05Speaker 01

  Two.

• 48:06Mike Rowe?

  This is the kind of relationship we're really talking about.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  You learned it from me. I have a really bad cousin.

• 48:10Mike Rowe?

  You terrible potty mouth, you two? Or?

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, two, it is.

• 48:14Mike Rowe?

  You fucking think you know somebody?

• 48:17Mike Rowe?

  Now this shit.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Two is that it is possible. One, you don't have to sell out. Two, you can go and make something happen. Doesn't take luck out of it, doesn't, I mean, I'm incredibly lucky to have met Jeff. And Jeff wouldn't have invested in me if I was an idiot, but I, like that was, that was a stroke of luck. There have been probably 10 things like that, but it is possible. And so for me, like the, the biggest thing, not, not for my own sake, I don't care. I'd rather not be in front of the camera, but to like show that that, show that that is, and so that enough people hopefully wake up, go and be the best electrician on earth.

• 48:47Speaker 02

  Yep. Create motion, yeah.

• 48:49Mike Rowe?

  Yeah. So I mean, but look, that's, that's it. There are two stories. There's a story of Mach, there's a story of our country, all that. But there's also the story of a company and, and a mom trying to make sense of it and you, that's the thing that's relatable. Everybody in their own way are trying not to be excellent sheep, you know? Nobody wants that. Everybody wants to be excellent, but nobody really wants to be sheep. But the thing about excellent sheep is they almost always come from other excellent sheep.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:16Mike Rowe?

  We really appreciate you letting us in and, and sharing so much of what you know.

• 49:20Speaker 02

  Being our therapist. Thank you for facilitating a conversation. We haven't.

• 49:25Mike Rowe?

  Here, let me give you something. And in honor of grandfathers, Carl Noble was mine. He inspired Dirty Jobs and the MicroWorks Foundation. I put his name on some whiskey just because it's ironic. I don't even think the man drank in his life, but that's excellent.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 49:41Mike Rowe?

  And since you have a bar.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  I appreciate it.

• 49:44Mike Rowe?

  Take it.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 49:46Mike Rowe?

  Honestly, really, really great. Thank you.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  So fun.

• 49:49Mike Rowe?

  Thank you so much.

• 49:53Speaker 03

  I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry it went on so long, but if it made you smile, then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online and leave us a review. I hate to ask, I hate to beg, I hate to be a nudge, but in this world, the advertisers really like to judge. You don't need to write a bunch, just a line or two.

• 50:37Speaker 03

  All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. Not four. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. And not three. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. Definitely not two. All you've got to do is leave a quick five-star review. We need five. All you've got to do is leave a quick- Even if you hate it. Five. Especially if you hate- Review. Thank you.

• 51:03Speaker 04

  Business is booming. Is your fulfillment ready for peak season? Switch to ShipStation now and handle more volume with confidence when it counts. ShipStation connects Shopify, Amazon, TikTok Shop, and over 200 more integrations with one platform that does it all. You can manage orders, sync inventory, track returns, all automatically. Everything your operation needs, all in one place. Right now, qualified shippers get a real dedicated person to get you set up and switched over for free. So when peak season hits, you're ready to go. Switch today at shipstation.com code AUDIO.

• 51:33Speaker 05

  When your workday is constantly disrupted, your workflow isn't flowing. It's come to a grinding halt. You don't need an assistant, you need superpowers. Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly, is built for how you actually work. No new tabs, no switching apps, no losing your place. Go handles busy work like finding documents or summarizing email threads, so you can focus on the work only you can do. Try Superhuman Go, from the makers of Grammarly. Find out more at superhuman.com.