Matt Walsh: Dave Smith/Douglas Murray Debate, Transgenderism, and What It Really Means to Be a Man

Matt Walsh: Any country that can’t function without American aid has no right to exist. (00:00) Should Gay Couples Be Able to Adopt? (10:12) The Effects of the LGBT Agenda on Western Society (19:56) The Destruction of Gender Roles (30:16) Walsh’s Advice on How to Raise Your Kids (42:42) The Modern Obsession With Video Games (44:35) Should Marijuana Be Legal? (59:43) What It Really Means to Be a Man (1:20:00) Is the Manosphere Movement Gay? Paid partnerships with: iTrust Capital: Get $100 funding bonus at https://www.iTrustCapital.com/Tucker ExpressVPN: Go to https://ExpressVPN.com/Tucker and find out how you can get 4 months of ExpressVPN free! Beam: Get 47% off for a limited time using the code TUCKER at https://ShopBeam.com/Tucker Masa Chips: Get 25% off with code TUCKER at https://masachips.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, so I'm gonna, um, I'm not on X all that much, but I do read you. And sometimes I read your tweets and I'm like, Matt Walsh, ladies and gentlemen, spinning people up. Here's one. "We've been saying for many years that gay adoption and surrogacy should be illegal. Now everyone else seems to be catching on. This is an abomination." We've been saying for many years that gay adoption's an abomination? I've never heard anybody say that.

• 0:56Speaker 02

  Uh, wow, we're just diving right in.

• 0:58Tucker Carlson?

  We're diving right in.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Gay adoption is an abomination.

• 1:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think there I was referring to, uh, social conservatives because social conservatives still somehow get a bad rap. So, you know, so-called social conservatives. Even among other conservatives and other people on the right, uh, it seems to me. But, so when I say "we," I mean like so-called social conservatives?

• 1:42Tucker Carlson?

  I've never heard them say that. I've never heard anybody, I think I agree with it, what you said, but I'm not, I don't think I've ever heard a single person say that. Everyone seems to be afraid to say that.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, most people are. That's why I think, uh, but, but, you know, so-called social conservatism is, is, that's why it's not popular even, even on the right.

• 2:02Tucker Carlson?

  Is, can I ask you about, is there anything more hated on the right than social conservatism?

• 2:08Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 2:09Tucker Carlson?

  So you could say like, "I think we should drop an atomic bomb on a bunch of people and just like kill them all and their kids." And people are like, "Well, that's a really good idea." But if you're like, "Actually, we should like save some kids," then they hate you. What is that?

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or we should, we should, we should probably, we should look at the way that... Human society was structured for thousands of years. And we should probably consider that they were right about a lot of that stuff, you know? Maybe not everything.

• 2:38Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Maybe not everything, but there are just some certain basic civilizational truths that we have moved away from in recent decades. But I don't think there's any good reason to move away from them. And so if if human beings did something a certain way for literally millennia in every civilization that we know of, it's it's probably right. I mean, there's probably it's there's probably a lot to be said for it. Again, not in every case, but in in most cases.

• 3:09Tucker Carlson?

  It's worth pondering anyway. It tells you something if right, if every civilization, none of which that we know of had contact with each other, came to the same conclusions.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. So so it's something like the, you know, gay adoption. That and this is this isn't the only argument against it, but I think it is a worthwhile argument that there's never been a society anywhere on earth, anywhere, period, where they have had two men in a romantic relationship, starting a family. That's just that's never existed. It's always been a man and a woman start a family. Or in certain ancient civilizations and even some primitive ones today, you might have a man and several women, you might have polygamy.

• 3:52Tucker Carlson?

  That's that's a pretty common feature, I would say.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, certainly common, but you never had. And why do you have polygamy? And it's like, I'm not I don't support polygamy, but there was a logic to it, especially in ancient times.

• 4:01Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 4:01Speaker 02

  You got to create people, you know? And the whole point is to create the whole point of the family is to make children and care for them. And, you know, a a family that's headed up by two gay men is that's why it's it's it's an abomination. It's just.

• 4:19Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it never happened before, and now it's happening. And that's why we call it progress, right? This is progress. It's something that was never been done.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:27Tucker Carlson?

  And.

• 4:27Speaker 02

  Well, it's it's progress in the way. It's progress in the way that cancer progresses. You know, so when I when I hear about progressivism, I think of I think of progressivism. It is progress.

• 4:39Tucker Carlson?

  So we're at stage four gay right now, would you say?

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Stayed full on stage four. Yeah. Terminal. It's a it's a terminal case.

• 4:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I just figure why not just jump right into it. So, um, but what is, so I think you make an obvious and very fair and smart point. We should pay attention to the way things have always been done because maybe we can learn something. It's like discarding it all. French Revolution style doesn't end well. I totally agree. But what's the more affirmative detailed case against it? These kids don't have homes and here are two loving parents to watch over the child. Why is that bad?

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think that there are a couple of things. First of all, it's interesting to note that when this conversation about gay parenthood first started really in earnest like 10 years ago, most of the conversation was focused on adoption and gay men want to adopt. But now what's happened is there's been a shift and now you've got a lot of these gay couples that are turning to surrogacy. So they're renting wombs, you know, they're renting the, they're purchasing the body parts of women and renting them, using them like an Airbnb rental.

• 5:49Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I thought we got rid of slavery.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would have thought, but this is, uh, this is exactly, this is the, in a very literal sense, the objectification of a human being, treating them like an object, using them as an object. So it's just interesting. There was a study done recently, a survey a couple of years ago, actually, that found that it was like 60 plus percent of gay couples, when they think about parenting, they would prefer surrogacy. So it's a slight a hand trick you see on the left a lot where they, they want to bring about some social change and they, they present an argument for it. But then, once they get what they want, they abandon that. And then you kind of, you figure out what they actually wanted. So it's kind

• 6:31Speaker 02

  of like, adoption has given way to surrogacy. And then the whole argument, which I didn't, I never bought, which is that we're rescuing kids who are in these terrible situations and foster care, that's out the window because these are not kids that you're rescuing, you're creating them. Rather than rescuing a kid from an unfortunate situation, you're creating them to be in an unfortunate situation from birth, which is, which is a different thing. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is that even if we're talking

• 7:00Tucker Carlson?

  But would you concede that one upside to a collapsing post-industrial economy is there are a ton of poor people who are willing to have babies for profit?

• 7:11Speaker 02

  I don't know that I would call that an upside.

• 7:13Tucker Carlson?

  It's just like, this is so like, people don't take three steps back. Like if this were happening and if Dickens were writing about this in the 1850s, you'd be like, wow, you know, London's a very screwed up place. Yeah. Where we're taking advantage of the poor. Like, that's the step beyond prostitution. I mean, it really is treating someone, as you said correctly, as an object.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  But there's also, the fundamental point, whether it's surrogacy or adoption, the fundamental point is what does the child have a right to? We keep hearing about, we hear about this right to parenthood. I mean, you have gay couples now that are, that are demanding insurance cover fertility treatments as if the reason why two men can't make a baby is because of fertility problems? No, it's because of the laws of nature. But, and that is, that is cloaked under this, it's sort of under this umbrella of, I have a right to parenthood. Now, you don't have a right to, what does that mean? No one has a right to be a parent.

• 8:16Speaker 02

  It's great to be a parent if you can, but you're not born with this like entitlement. You're entitled to a child? What the hell does that mean? Rather than talking about the right of the parent, let's talk about the right of the child. And this also, this applies to so many, like this applies to abortion, applies to a lot of topics. What does the child have a right to? And I would say a child has a right to a mother and a father. A child has a right to the basic fundamental setup that, that, you know, billions of kids throughout history have had, which is a mother and a father. Now, if through the course of events, through no one's fault, that is taken away from a child, I mean, you can have a parent that dies, you end up with a single parent, you

• 9:01Speaker 02

  can have a divorce, which I think is terrible.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  But it's not supposed to work that way. So if you have a child in foster care, you're looking for a mother and a father. And to just say, okay, well, we'll give this child to two dads. You're basically giving up on that child. You're saying, well, yeah, we couldn't find the right setup for you, so instead you're getting this. And I just reject that. I reject that totally.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  And I also think frankly, that

• 9:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of people won't like this, but, but, but I,

• 9:35Tucker Carlson?

  I think we've passed the point.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. No one likes anything that we're saying. A child being in foster care is, is far from an ideal scenario. It's very, very sad. A child going to two gay parents, I think is worse. I think it's, I think it's easily worse, actually.

• 9:53Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Um, it's just more disordered. It's more confusing for the child. Again, neither, neither scenario was good. We don't like either thing, but um, I, I don't see going to, you know, gay parents as an improvement over the, the, what they had before.

• 10:15Tucker Carlson?

  Do we know that it screws kids up or we just sort of intuitively know it?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  I think we intuitively know, but also there's been plenty of studies done about, the mental health effects of kids that grow up in these, you know, single sex, same-sex parent homes. There's been a lot of studies done about it, but, but honestly, I don't, you can look at the studies, people will fact check and they're there. I, I just, I don't need studies for this. It's, it's the same thing with the trans topic, you know? From the very beginning, when we started talking about that, you had all these people saying, well, where are the studies? Where are the studies showing that we shouldn't chemically castrate? A five-year-old or, you know, or, or a 12-year-old? Well, there are studies now that will bear that out.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  But I didn't, we don't need a study to tell us that. This should be, this should be intuitive. We just intuitively know it. There are certain, certain things as human beings that we just know. And one of them is that sexually mutilating a child is bad. Another one is that a child needs a mother and father. We just intuitively know that. I don't need any study. I don't care what any academic says about it. I don't care.

• 11:32Tucker Carlson?

  So when you were born, the AIDS, the AIDS crisis, AIDS was sort of in its early years. And there were famous people who had AIDS, who died of AIDS, who lied about why they were dying because they don't want to admit that they were gay. So that was the world you were born into. Now, being gay is like an advantage in college admissions in a lot of schools and in hiring. So like we, it's moved completely. It's like the opposite of what it was in 40 years. Why do you think that happened? And what do you think its effects are?

• 12:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's, um, it's the collapse of, well, it's just this war on, it's kind of what we started with. It's this war on normalcy, on civilization, really. It's part of the anti-family agenda, um, the anti-human agenda. Uh, and I think that, and that's, that's always been there. Why did it catch on though, to such an extent? I think that the, the side that was supposed to stand up for the family and stand up for civilization largely failed and abdicated their responsibility to do so. You know, conservatives, the church,

• 12:57Speaker 02

  uh, has just largely failed. And not even failed, not even tried, really.

• 13:02Tucker Carlson?

  Not, not even tried. Why is that?

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Fear, cowardice, um,

• 13:12Speaker 02

  hypocrisy. I mean, hypocrisy in the, in the, in the actual sense, in the literal sense of not someone who's, you know, says something and does another, but someone who claims to believe something they don't, which is what actual hypocrisy is. Um, and so we have a lot of hypocrites on the right and in the church, unfortunately, who are just claiming to believe things they don't really believe. And so I think that the answer is, it's like, why, why don't?

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Why, why aren't there enough pastors in any church, in any denomination, standing up and talking about these issues and leading, you know, leading on these issues? And the answer is, well, there's a lot of cowards, but also a certain portion of them don't really believe it. I mean, they don't believe, it's like whether or not they really believe in God is a question. So I think that that's a, that's a part of it too.

• 14:02Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think the fact of it has been? Not, not just the acceptance of homosexuality, but the celebration of it, like what? I remember hearing, you know, 30 years ago, when this was gathering steam, people saying, well, it's not a threat to you, gays aren't going to break into your house and, you know, forcibly make you gay or something like, why do you care? And I thought that, you know, it kind of made sense to me at the time. But I, there's a sense that's just not true, actually, that it did have a big effect on everybody else. Do you think that?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  It certainly did because, because it's always a lie, obviously, when they say, oh, this isn't, we just want to do what we want to do and we're not, it does, it won't affect you and we, we don't need you to be involved.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  This is just what we're doing in the privacy of our own homes.

• 14:56Tucker Carlson?

  That was a good argument though, don't you think?

• 14:59Speaker 02

  In, in theory, in principle, it's a good argument.

• 15:01Tucker Carlson?

  I'm just saying, as a, as a kind of matter of slogans, you know, like, that's better than just do it for Nike or have a Coke and a smile. That's like a really effective ad campaign for Americans, because that matches the American instinct, like, you know, live and let live.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  And there's, and there's a certain, it, it makes sense to an extent

• 15:22Speaker 02

  that if someone across the street from me is in their home doing some freaky weird stuff, and that's it, and they're just in their home doing it, and I never even know about it or see it, my children don't see it, my children don't know about it, then yeah, it's hard to make an argument that I'm somehow impacted by that, because I'm not, except maybe in the most indirect sort of way. But that's not, that's not how it actually works. That's just the slogan. That's not what really happens. And so we follow the trajectory, and we've seen this time and time again. It always starts with...

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Tolerance, they say, well, just, just tolerate this, which, which is, which I guess we're supposed to think means, you know, it's just, people are doing this on their own, you don't have to, you could just stay out of it and they'll stay away from you and tolerate it, right? Tolerance, so it starts there, but then it goes to very quickly, acceptance, then they start saying, well, you should accept this. Well, accept and tolerate are not exactly the same thing.

• 16:27Tucker Carlson?

  How are they different?

• 16:29Speaker 02

  Well, tolerate means I just like put up with it.

• 16:31Tucker Carlson?

  I allow it.

• 16:32Speaker 02

  I allow it, I put up with it, I don't try to stop it.

• 16:35Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Is what tolerance means in the most literal sense. Accept means I'm embracing it.

• 16:42Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  You know, it means I'm embracing it and, but then they don't stop at accepting, because then they go to, well, okay, now actually we need you to celebrate it, you know, so it goes from tolerance to acceptance to celebration and.

• 16:57Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty fast, actually.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  Pretty fast. Yeah, I think, I think there was a time when that process might have taken, you know, 10 years and now it seems like it takes 10 minutes. So we, we went from decades ago, it was, hey, they're just in their private, in their private lives in their own homes, doing this, doesn't affect you, to now, while they're, I mean, literally marching in the street, you know, in leather bondage gear, like flaunting in front of confused children standing there.

• 17:27Tucker Carlson?

  Having sex on the street, actually.

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. Engaged in sexual acts and even worse than that, they're going into the school systems, they're putting this stuff in the school, they're, they're trying to tell my kids, well, my kids aren't in the school system, but you know, they're trying to tell our kids.

• 17:43Tucker Carlson?

  Do the authorities know your kids aren't in the school system?

• 17:45Speaker 02

  They do now.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  We still, I'm in Tennessee, so we still have, we still have that right in Tennessee so far. But then they start going into the school system and they start, they start promoting this. They start trying to tell our kids that, that you should also tolerate this and accept it and embrace it and, and celebrate it.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  There's this kind of, there's a, you know, what, what, what they're telling kids in school about homosexuality, for example, is not just biology. There's a moral message. They're giving them a moral message and the moral message is this is okay. There's nothing wrong with it. It's, this is, you know, a gay couple is equal in every way to a straight couple. These are just different variations, you know? It's a, it's morally neutral. That's their message. That's a, that's ideology. That's not biology. And, um, and once you start doing that, then it's like very clear how this affects me. You know?

• 18:40Tucker Carlson?

  But how does it affect the society?

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Well, fundamentally transforms society and our basic priorities, how we live, what matters to us.

• 18:52Tucker Carlson?

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• 20:10Tucker Carlson?

  Itrustcapital.com or click the link below.

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• 21:13Speaker 04

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• 21:54Speaker 04

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• 22:06Tucker Carlson?

  It scrambles the gender roles. That's what I notice, and that's what upsets me most because I think everything is built on biology, on nature, and gender roles are a function of nature. And I think if you scramble that, if you confuse that, if you convince people that there's no difference between men and women, like that's when civilization falls. Then you have like women fighting your wars.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:27Tucker Carlson?

  You know what I mean?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  And gender roles is another one.

• 22:33Speaker 02

  That again, it goes back to human civilization worked a certain way for thousands of years. And it seemed to work. Uh, and we went from, you know, mud huts to, uh, walking on the moon. If you believe we walked on the moon, which I absolutely do.

• 22:51Tucker Carlson?

  Boy, you are taking some bold positions.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  That is bold. That is bold.

• 22:55Tucker Carlson?

  You're taking on the entire internet.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  We, so we went, we went from, from there to there. Uh, with a kind of basic structure with a basic setup. Gender roles is one of them. There's like this base. They, they were so basic, so fundamental that you didn't even, you didn't have a word for it. You know, if you go back to 1700 and use the term gender roles. To anyone, they're not going to have any idea what the hell you're talking about. Even though their entire society is structured around it.

• 23:24Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  And, uh, and this is true even now. If you go, if you go outside of the kind of liberal Western bubble, which I've done, which I've done once when we were doing, what is a woman? I went to, uh, we went to Kenya and we talked to the Maasai tribe in, in, in Kenya.

• 23:38Tucker Carlson?

  Did they know what a woman was?

• 23:40Speaker 02

  They did know what a woman was. They were confused by the question, not because they didn't know the answer, but because they couldn't possibly understand why it would even be asked.

• 23:49Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  Um, but then I even, I remember a lot of this didn't make it in the movie because it was, it wasn't totally connected. But talking about gender roles with them, and again, they had no idea what that term even meant. But their whole society is completely structured around it. It was, if you're a man, this is what you do. If you're a woman, this is what you do. And that's it. And, um, and I remember asking one of the, the women, I was in there in her, uh, her hut, which is actually made of like cow dung and it's a one room hut and they all sleep on one bed. You know, mud, mud floor. And she was telling me what she does all day as the woman of the house, which is she takes care of the house. She takes care of the kids.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  And, uh, I asked her, she was happy doing this. And she, she laughed at me because it was such a ridiculous question because of course she is. And then I asked about depression and this might be in the movie. I said, you know, where I come from, there's a lot of people are depressed. And one of the guys said to me, well, we don't have that here. We don't, we don't do that. We don't have, we don't have depression. That's not a thing here. Um, and that's not, and yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Of course, there's unhappiness. It's not like a utopia. I wouldn't want to live there to be perfectly clear about it. But you do notice that in these societies that are structured around gender roles, there's just, there's a lot of anxiety and hangups that they don't have because they know they have a basic concept of who they are and what they're supposed to do.

• 25:25Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they're not at war with nature every day.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 25:27Tucker Carlson?

  You can't beat nature. If I go out into a blizzard with my boxer shorts, I don't care what, you know, my resolve level is or my courage. It's like I'm gonna freeze to death because you can't beat nature because it's bigger than you because God created it.

• 25:44Speaker 02

  Right. And we're and and we are certainly discovering that in this in this culture. And that's why,

• 25:52Speaker 02

  you know, you could go on TikTok, any which I don't recommend, but you can go on TikTok anytime and you can fit a whole genre of video now on TikTok where you've got these young women. It's usually it's usually young women who do these videos, these selfie videos where they're in tears, crying because they went out into the working world and they found it so miserable and depressing and empty. And they just hate it and they don't want to work and they don't want to do it and they and they're in despair over it.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  And and that's, that's exactly what's what's happened. I think we were, we were, you know, the message to women.

• 26:30Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, so you're not only against gay adoption, you're against women working at banks?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. For the most.

• 26:38Tucker Carlson?

  Where did you get all these opinions?

• 26:40Speaker 02

  It, it's not the ideal setup because I mean, and just to be clear,

• 26:46Speaker 02

  I don't

• 26:49Speaker 02

  I think that there are families where both parents have to work. I think there are a lot of families where they think both parents have to work, but they don't actually have to. Uh, it just depends on what your priorities are. And if you're willing to make the sacrifices, I think most families of you, you know, people say to me all the time, well, I'd love to have, I'd love for it to be one income. I'd love to homeschool. I'd love to have a family that we can't afford it.

• 27:13Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, but you went to Harvard and had a big trust fund. It's easy for you to say.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

• 27:19Tucker Carlson?

  No, you didn't have any trust fund and you didn't even go to college and you worked at Blockbuster. And then you told me this last night at dinner. I had no idea. You worked at a couple of Blockbusters.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  I did, yeah. Yeah. I was an assistant manager on one of the both.

• 27:30Tucker Carlson?

  Is that true?

• 27:31Speaker 02

  It was. That's how low their standards were towards the end.

• 27:34Tucker Carlson?

  It was definitely toward the end.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  I left Blockbuster and then they went out of business shortly thereafter. So you can connect the dots on that.

• 27:40Tucker Carlson?

  It's not the fir- by the way, it's not the first company you've worked at that's no longer with us, which is interesting. You are the destroyer. But you, you got, how old were you when you got married?

• 27:51Speaker 02

  Twenty-five.

• 27:52Tucker Carlson?

  Then you're, how long after that did your wife get pregnant with twins?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  It was about a year, year and a half, yeah.

• 27:59Tucker Carlson?

  Did, and that point, I assume she was raising the twins, right?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, yeah. We, we, yeah, I was working. I was making about forty thousand dollars a year at the time. Half that when we first got married. But by the time we had kids, I was making about forty thousand dollars a year.

• 28:14Tucker Carlson?

  And that was the only income in the family?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  That was the only income in the family.

• 28:17Tucker Carlson?

  And no trust fund at all?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  No, no, no. I, no, we, no savings of any kinds. You know, this was a time. There was one time I remember I went to the gas station to get gas and my card was declined, insufficient funds. And I'm in the gas station, I have no money. I can't, and the gas thing is empty because like when you're broke, your gas is always almost empty. And so I had no gas, I insufficient funds. And I remember thinking, this is after I had two kids already. This is how broke we were.

• 28:52Speaker 02

  But I remember thinking, I'm gonna have to ask someone at a gas station for money. I'm gonna have to do this. I can't believe I'm gonna have to. But I didn't. I just started looking under the, under the chair for coins. And I found about like a buck fifty in coins and I went and paid for gas, a buck fifty worth of gas in coins. Enough to get home and then we'll figure out the problem. But anyway, the point is, we had no money. We were very broke. And, you know, money went a little bit farther back then, but not that much farther. I mean, this was, this wasn't fifty years ago, right?

• 29:21Tucker Carlson?

  How many years ago was?

• 29:22Speaker 02

  This was eleven years ago.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Eleven years ago.

• 29:28Tucker Carlson?

  All of us remember 11 years ago, it was same country.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the same country. And, um, and we had, so we, we had one, we, we decided we wanted to have one income. We want to have a one income family, so family of four on one income. It was not a, it was not a, a high income at all. It can be done, I think in most cases, you just have to be willing to make the sacrifices. And a lot of people aren't, and that's fine too, because you have to decide on what your priorities are. And so you might say, look, it's a priority to us that we, um, have a big enough house that each person can have their own room. We don't want to share rooms for kids. It's a priority to us that we have two cars, that we can go on vacation, a nice vacation once a year, that we can have two or three TVs, that everyone can have a smartphone with all the plans. And we want to have, you know, we want to have five different streaming subscriptions.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  And we want to be able to eat out whenever we want, like, that's a priority to us. And okay, if that's a priority, then yeah, in a lot of cases, you're going to need a double income. But if you're willing to say, okay, we're going to, we're going to downsize our home. Uh, we're going to share bedrooms. We're going to have one TV, we're going to have one car. We're going to, we're going to go on much more modest vacations. And, um, and we're going to cut things down to the bone a bit because it's worth it to us to be able to keep mom at home and to be able to homeschool or whatever it is. So I think if you're, if you're willing to say that, a lot of people could do it, but.

• 30:56Tucker Carlson?

  Do you think it is worth it?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

• 31:00Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 31:01Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. Um, because a lot of the other stuff doesn't matter, really. It's like, there's no happiness in that.

• 31:08Tucker Carlson?

  I, I think, I think that's clearly true. Uh, on the other hand, you know, it's, it's a drag not having enough money. I've had more than enough money most of my life, but I have had periods where didn't have enough and had to sell stuff. And everyone goes through that. And it's, it's a, it's a bummer.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's very hard. Like I say, I, having gone through it, it's, it's, it's really difficult. I, I much prefer having money to not having it.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  But not at the expense of having someone else raise my kids.

• 31:41Tucker Carlson?

  So what's the upside of, you know, making the conscious decision to have the mother of your children raise those children?

• 31:51Tucker Carlson?

  The downside, I mean, you just described it like you're going to sacrifice in order to get that. But if you do get that, what do you get?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Happiness in the, in the home is a, is a big thing. Not, not perfectly happy. It's not, you're going to have your, your problems and your struggles and some of them might, may be financial and there can be some real misery that comes from that. I don't, I don't deny it.

• 32:15Speaker 02

  But it's just a fundamentally happier home in my experience. When the children are being raised by their mother, by their parents, the kid, the kids are happier. And, and beyond happiness, you can control how your children are raised and you can raise them with your value system and maintain that, which, which is almost impossible if you're putting your kids in public school, let's say. It's almost impossible because the kids are gonna, they're gonna spend five days a week, you know, seven hours a day, nine months a year for 12 or 13 years of their formative

• 32:59Speaker 02

  years, not with you or your, or your wife in this government indoctrination center around their peers. And so inevitably they're going to be absorbing, they're going to start orienting themselves to the world based on that by looking at their peers, not even so much what their teachers are telling them, but what their peers are doing. And that's what's going to happen. So, so, so at a, at a certain point, you're going to lose, you run the risk that you're just going to lose them. And that's why you have these parents who turn around and everything they've instilled in their kids seems to have just gone out the window.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  And I think this is a big reason why.

• 33:41Tucker Carlson?

  But then we're told that if you don't do that, if you don't submit to the culture, then your kids are out of step with their peers. They're weird. They never quite fit in. They're just weird. They're weird. Is that a risk? Is that a meaningful downside? Like, what do you think of that?

• 34:00Speaker 02

  I don't think it's meaningful. Weird is, there are bad kinds of weird, but this is a good kind of weird. Um, yeah, I hear this a lot. People will say, well,

• 34:13Tucker Carlson?

  How do you socialize them?

• 34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. How do you socialize them? Do you want to have, do you want to keep your kid in a bubble?

• 34:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  And it's like, yeah, I do. I absolutely want to keep my kids in a bubble. I really do. Um, not, not, you know,

• 34:29Tucker Carlson?

  But are they getting enough porn if they're in that bubble?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Right. Well, enough porn, enough time on TikTok. I mean, all that, all that sort of thing. That's, that's the point. You are supposed to be providing an environment for your child to grow and develop and mature physically, morally, spiritually, have a childhood, have actual childhood experiences. I hear from people all the time, people my age and older that say, oh, man, I remember when I was a kid and we were outside, we would run around the woods and we would be outside all the time playing tag. And I just wish my kids had that because kids these days are just on the screens all day. They don't have a real childhood. And I say that your kids can have that. There's no

• 35:12Speaker 02

  reason why they can't have it. My kids have that. I work in media and, and yet my kids have exactly that kind of childhood because we just determined from the beginning that our kids aren't, they're gonna have a real childhood. They are going to run outside and scrape their knees and, and climb trees. And that's what they're gonna do. That's the kind of, that's the kind of childhood they should have. And it is possible to have it. The only difference now is that it has to be a choice. You know, I think, I think 30 years ago, that was just the default.

• 35:43Tucker Carlson?

  So more than a choice. I mean, you have to organize, well, you're the one with six kids who are homeschooled. So you tell me, but it, it sounds from the outside like you have to reorganize your entire life around that goal.

• 35:55Speaker 02

  You do.

• 35:56Tucker Carlson?

  It doesn't happen naturally, right?

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Right. It doesn't happen naturally. That's why I said it has to be a priority. If it's an actual priority, if you really are lamenting that kids today don't have a real childhood, which I agree, I think that many of them don't, and I think it's a horrible tragedy, it really is.

• 36:15Speaker 02

  But if you really care about that, and if it troubles you, then yeah, you have to, you have to make-

• 36:21Tucker Carlson?

  So what if you, I mean, if you don't mind, if this is too personal, just, just say, stop being so creepy and I'll pull back. But if you don't mind, like, describe in specific terms, the steps that you've taken to protect your children and allow them a childhood in a world that would deny them one. Like, what have you done?

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Well, it starts with, we don't send them to public school. You know, we have always homeschooled from the beginning, so that's a big step. They don't have phones, they don't have access to any screens, except for our family TV. We have a family TV. We don't do, there's a policy my wife and I have had since the beginning, is we don't do screens. There will be no screens in a room that has a door on it.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  So we have one TV, and it's in a very public area of the house, where anyone can hear it when they walk in. And, and that's it. So we do have that, like, our kids can watch TV. They can't watch it all day, but they can watch it. And we're gonna know anything that they watch. You know, they're not gonna just sit there on the TV and choose something and tell us what you want to watch. If it's something I've never heard of, well, you're not watching that until I can watch it first.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  And they don't have any internet access at all. You know, no phones, no tablets, nothing like that.

• 37:42Tucker Carlson?

  Laptop.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  No laptop, no, no computer at all. And our oldest kids are almost 12 now. The, the only exception we make is if we go on long car rides, which for us is four hours plus, then we have tablets that are for the car, four hour plus car ride. There's no internet on it. It's books and like, educational games. And, and the tablets have that. And in the car, if it's four plus hours, you can use those tablets. And then when we get to our destination, we're taking the tablets back. And I, and I've-

• 38:18Speaker 02

  And I've noticed this, that, that even this, this little bit of access to this, that kind of technology that we do give to our kids in the car and this really, in this really specific scenario, you see how this, it just has this pull on them.

• 38:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  And it becomes a, especially if it's one, you know, we, we sometimes go places, it's a 15 hour, 16 hour ride over a couple of days. So during that time, they do have the tablets for a while. And when we get there, it's almost like a detox.

• 38:46Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  They, they're, they're just, they're, they're jonesing for the tablet.

• 38:48Tucker Carlson?

  It's like giving them one jelly bean. They want more.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. And I had, and I've had to take, you know, what some people would consider extreme steps to get them over that.

• 38:58Tucker Carlson?

  How extreme?

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Well, to me, it's not extreme because it's like what my dad would have done. But I remember it was last year, we had just come back from a long car ride. And so we took the tablets away. And then my, my son, it was seven at the time, freaked out. Like he, he want, he started screaming that he wanted his tablet.

• 39:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  And I said, you know, we don't, we're not that family. We don't, we don't have seven year olds screaming about tablets. We're not going to do that. And so I, I said, come here, bud, come over here. I brought him over to the, where our trash can is in the kitchen. And I said, here's where the tablet's going. It's in the trash. And, and that's it. We're throwing it away. You're not getting it back.

• 39:39Tucker Carlson?

  Did he have a funeral for it?

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, emotionally in his heart, he did. He was, he was shocked. He was, he was distraught. But we threw it away. I didn't give it back to him. It went in the trash. And like a year later, he got a new one for the car. And he freaked out and about 10 minutes later, he was fine. And he was running around outside, using a stick like a lightsaber or whatever.

• 40:07Tucker Carlson?

  But it shows you why most parents, despite, I think, wanting to do what you do, I do think a lot of parents will hear this and say, man, I would like to do that, or I should have done that. But the reason they don't is, the pushback from the kids is really intense. Denying kids electronics, denying them what all of their peers, what all their friends have, like, it's, it's hard.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  It is hard. It is hard. And especially if it's easier, we have it a little bit easier because our kids are homeschooled.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  And most of their friends are like homeschool, Christian families. And most of them are on the same page. Not all of them, but most of them are. And it does make it easier. It certainly does. If your kid's in public school, it's gonna be a lot harder because they are. There's a whole culture, you know, that comes out of these. Out of the screens, out of the devices. There's a language that comes out of it. And when I, when I see one of my kids, like one of the 12 year olds. Or the, or the eight year old. Around one of their peers who are not part of the homeschool community. But just like a, you know, a kid from public school or something. The difference is stark. It really is in every way. You can just, the way that they speak, like I said, they have a different language that they pick up.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  Um, the way that they carry themselves. I think a lot of these kids are a lot more just sort of jaded and cynical. They seem a lot harder to impress. They're overstimulated.

• 41:38Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 41:39Speaker 02

  They're not interested in things outside of the screen. Um. You know, my son, my 12 year old son is. And I was the same way when I was, when I was his age. I'm still this way. But he goes through these phases where he becomes really obsessed with a certain topic. And it changes. It'll, it'll change every four to six months. He picks a new topic that he's just obsessed with. The only thing he cares about is this topic. And it could be anything from, he went through a phase where, where he was obsessed with India, Native American culture. It could be Lord of the Rings. It could be, uh, anything. Space, you know, he did a dinosaur thing, as a lot of boys do. Anyway, uh.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  So when he's around his friends or he's around other kids, he wants to talk about. Whatever that is, he wants to talk about this, this thing that he's really interested in. And he'll learn everything there is to know about it. He'll end up knowing more about the subject than I do. I'm learning from him about it. Um, but I'll be around these other kids and he wants to, that's what he wants to talk about. He wants to talk about, hey. Let me tell you this really interesting thing I learned. And with some of these kids, they'll look at him like he's, like he's weird, you know? Because that's just not. They don't do that. They want to talk about, you know, the Minecraft movie or whatever, you know.

• 42:58Tucker Carlson?

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• 43:41Tucker Carlson?

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• 44:10Speaker 05

  It's me, the

• 44:13Speaker 05

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 44:16Speaker 05

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 44:24Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Fine. No one deals more deals than

• 44:34Speaker 05

  Please stop. Touche. Priceline.

• 44:38Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. You have three. And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 45:08Tucker Carlson?

  What do you think of video games?

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I've gotten a lot of trouble with some of my audience.

• 45:15Tucker Carlson?

  You're not allowed to criticize video games for marijuana. Those are the two things you're not allowed to criticize.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  You really can't. You really can't. Which, which to me only validates a lot of the criticisms that people are that attached to it. Because here's, here's my thing with video games. I, I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with them. We don't, we don't do video games with our kids because it's a screen-based activity and we've just decided that we're not, our kids are not going to have a childhood dominated by screens. And so we're just not going to do that. That's a decision that we made. But there's nothing intrinsically wrong with them. Uh, I, I think I would. A lot of the gamers, they'll, they'll, anytime I, I offer some mild criticism of, you know, video games or anything.

• 46:03Tucker Carlson?

  What's your mild criticism?

• 46:07Speaker 02

  It's not about the game itself. It's about, it's about the attachment to it. You know, it's about, it's about revolving your whole life around it. And so that when, when we get into this conversation, the, uh, video game fans will say to me, well, this is no different. You know, you're a football fan, which I am, I'm a big NFL fan.

• 46:27Speaker 02

  And, uh, they say, well, what's, what's the difference between playing a video game and watching football on a Sunday afternoon? And I think that's a valid point. I think that there probably is little difference. I think there's a little bit of a difference, but not much.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  And I would say the same thing about being a sports fan, that it, it's fine to like sports. I do. I love football. It shouldn't dominate your life. And there are people out there who it just dom, their sports fandom is the central thing about them. It's their whole personality. And that's excessive. That should not be your personality. You know, your, your affinity for some group of guys playing a game should not be your personality. It shouldn't be your identity. And I, and I, and that's my point about video games. That's it. So that's why I say it's a very mild criticism. You want to play the games? That's fine. You don't need my permission. But it should not be the central fact of your life. It shouldn't be your number one priority. You shouldn't have in,

• 47:25Speaker 02

  a, a, an attachment to it. You shouldn't have a, you know, a, a, an excessive attachment to it. That's it.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  And it, I think that's pretty reasonable, you know?

• 47:38Tucker Carlson?

  Why are people touchy about that?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  People are, they, they, it's part of the culture. People take their, people take their entertainment and their recreation very seriously. And I think for a lot of people, it just, that is their, the central fact of their identity. And so they kind of take it personally. They take it as a personal attack, which is not how I mean it.

• 48:01Tucker Carlson?

  Where are you on marijuana?

• 48:04Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I think it's awful. I think it's terrible. I, I used to have a more kind of libertarian view of it.

• 48:10Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Uh, if you were to go back 10 years, 15 years, my view was, I don't like it personally, but

• 48:18Tucker Carlson?

  You were never a weed smoker.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I've had it. I've never been, uh, years and years and years ago, not, not, not in adulthood. Uh, it's not for me. It's not for me. But, and my view used to be, well, it's not for me, but probably all this, I, I kind of bought into the war on drugs thing and all this money that we're spending to try to stop people from smoking it is a waste. And so it should probably just be legal, even if I don't like it. Uh, there's this argument from the marijuana fans that, well, it's no different from, uh, than alcohol. And we know how prohibition of alcohol worked out. And so if we're going to allow people to go out and get a drink, why shouldn't they be able to go out?

• 49:02Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty well, I think. I think cirrhosis deaths went way down, didn't they? I mean, they did.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, yeah. So I'm not, I'm not convinced by the argument for that reason. I'm also not entirely convinced that alcohol and marijuana are, are comparable. Uh, for, for one thing, and alcohol can be really bad and it, there's addiction and it destroys, it can destroy families and lives. Alcohol is though, at least a more social, it's a social lubricant.

• 49:31Tucker Carlson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  So if you're with a group of people and you're, you're having a drink, it can help you have, loosen up, you have a better time, as long as you're not being excessive. Now, if somebody gets trashed, then it kind of ruins the time for everyone and that can happen. I think marijuana is not like that. It's, it, it, it-

• 49:51Speaker 02

  It kind of turns you inward. It makes you antisocial. You know, so if you're sitting around a table with some people and a couple of them are drinking a beer, even if you're not drinking, you can have a perfectly nice time. But if you're sitting around a table and a couple of the people are stoned, it's like that's, it's lame. You don't even want to talk to that person. They've got nothing to contribute.

• 50:15Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Does seem to isolate people.

• 50:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's isolating. I think it turns you, I think it turns you inward. But regardless of all that, my, my, my opinion was, yeah, it should probably just be legal. But I also believe in, when you get new data, you get new facts, you need to analyze them. You need to be willing to change your mind. And so we, we have legalized it in many places across the country, in many cities. And I've been to these cities, as many of us have, where, where weed is now, it's like cigarettes were 30 years ago. Everybody's smoking. And I think the early returns are not good.

• 50:56Tucker Carlson?

  You don't think Denver, New York are pretty great?

• 50:58Speaker 02

  I really don't. I think they're quite, it's, it's quite terrible. It's not all because of weed. But just the experience of walking around, everybody's high, it reeks of weed everywhere. How has this made anyone's life better? That's my question. That's what I want to know. I, I'd be willing to adjust my view on this. And I've asked this question before. I haven't gotten a satisfactory answer. But we've made weed legal in a lot of these places.

• 51:25Speaker 02

  In what way has it, has it, has it measurably improved life anywhere? Now that it's legal?

• 51:33Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I don't know. I mean, it's degraded people to the point where they're very easy to control.

• 51:39Tucker Carlson?

  Don't you think that's an upside? So if you're like running a criminal enterprise posing as a government and you don't want people to rebel violently against you, then you give them drugs so they won't.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  And if I was, if I was in a position of power politically, then maybe I'd feel that way, but for me.

• 51:55Tucker Carlson?

  That, that does like take three steps back. Like what is this? The whole population is like addled with something, you know? Ladies are on benzos, the kids are on amphetamines, the young men are on weed.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:10Tucker Carlson?

  Like, no one's in his right mind, but everybody's kind of grooving out to his own music and testosterone levels have just like dropped to the floor. And so probably not going to have an insurrection when everyone's high, right?

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it makes people compliant. It makes them apathetic even more than I think people just sort of naturally are these days. And of course, in reality, these are all bad things. So it kind of goes back to how has it made anyone's life better?

• 52:42Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  And I don't know, I'm a, I'm a simple person. Maybe I can be guilty of being simplistic sometimes. So if that's the case, then guilty is charged. But to me, it's like, I think a policy is bad if it makes people's lives worse and doesn't improve anything.

• 53:03Tucker Carlson?

  What if it works in theory? What if it's a beautiful theory?

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Well, theories are great. Then we, it's, then we can talk about it. Then it's a lot of fun to talk about.

• 53:11Tucker Carlson?

  It's like that, that famous, the de Gaulle line, which I think is probably fake. We know it works in practice. The question is, does it work in theory?

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:19Tucker Carlson?

  And you feel like that's in, in operation in the United States. It's like, well, you know, people have the right to X, Y, or Z, therefore we're doing this. And it's like, actually that's a disaster, but people have a right. You know what I mean? It's like, there's no reference point in reality there. It's just like, the theory makes sense. Let's go with it.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's why increasingly I, when people start talking about their rights, it, it doesn't mean a lot to me. I don't even know what people mean when they say it. You know, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  The next time someone says, well, I have a right to this, just ask them, what do you mean you have a right to it? What does that mean?

• 53:55Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I know.

• 53:57Speaker 02

  They really have no, they don't know what they're saying. I think the vast majority of people talking about their rights, if you ask them to define the word right, they would not be able to do it.

• 54:07Tucker Carlson?

  Define anywhere. What's white supremacy? What's racism? What's, what's antisemitism? What is any word used as a cudgel to make people be quiet and control them? No one ever is forced to define what the term means.

• 54:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:19Tucker Carlson?

  In fact, there are even laws that I'm, you know, around those questions that are laws. They carry punishments and the term is never defined.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:29Tucker Carlson?

  I just, I feel like this is a trend where language isn't used to communicate. It's used to control and therefore it has to remain not fully defined.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Right. And that's why I think all I can do in response to that is if it's one of these terms that doesn't mean anything anymore.

• 54:46Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Then it, then it, it's not persuasive to me in an argument.

• 54:52Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 54:54Speaker 02

  It, it's a term that has become not useful and it may have been useful at a time. It may even be a term that used to have a definition or should have a definition.

• 55:03Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  But there are a lot of terms that are just not useful anymore in a conversation because they don't clarify anything.

• 55:10Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 55:11Speaker 02

  Well, right, you know, rights, that's one. It's just not, it's not, I'm not saying rights don't exist. I'm saying it's not a useful term in a conversation most of the time because when somebody says, oh, I have a right to this, I don't know what they mean by that. And I think they don't know what they mean by that.

• 55:27Tucker Carlson?

  Right. I don't think they care, actually.

• 55:31Speaker 02

  And, and, and, but also racism, white supremacy, antisemitism, any, any of the isms, these are all, these are not useful terms anymore because, you know, when you're calling someone racist. That doesn't tell me anything about him, actually. It could be, if you're, if you're pointing to a guy saying that guy's racist. Maybe he thinks that all black people are inferior and should be enslaved. That's racist. So maybe that's what you're telling me about him. But you could be trying to tell me that that's a guy who understands that, you know, young black males are disproportionately violent and he's, and he has pointed that out.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  So you could be using the term to describe that also, which is not actually racist at all. So when you say racist, I don't know what you mean. So it's just, it's not a useful term. You need to be more specific.

• 56:21Tucker Carlson?

  It means something I don't like.

• 56:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:24Tucker Carlson?

  Like something that gets in my way.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  Right, there's, there's, yeah, exactly. There, you're saying there's something about that guy that I don't like.

• 56:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I, I want this thing and you're between me and this thing. And how do I get you out of my way? How do I incapacitate or destroy you so I can get what I want? You're racist or any of those other terms.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:43Tucker Carlson?

  You're in the way.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 56:47Tucker Carlson?

  I should have asked you this, but I'm interested if you don't mind. What is your spiritual practice at home? Like you, you educate your children, yourself, you and your wife. I assume your wife primarily educates your children. But as head of, head of household, how do you think about your requirements as like the spiritual leader of your home?

• 57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're Catholic.

• 57:07Speaker 02

  So, and we pray together every night as a family, which I think is, is a, and we can get lazy about that. I think a lot of families do, but I think it's really important. Doesn't have to be anything. You know, it doesn't need to be a two hour routine, but

• 57:24Tucker Carlson?

  But you say your prayers before bed?

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, as a family.

• 57:28Tucker Carlson?

  All of you, all eight of you?

• 57:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, not the babies and two year olds, they, they get out of it for now, but uh,

• 57:34Tucker Carlson?

  Basically you've got a whole congregation.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  We do, yeah. On, you know, it's, I think it's important to be on your knees. This is just a bodily

• 57:43Tucker Carlson?

  Physically?

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, physically on our knees and you know,

• 57:45Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 57:46Speaker 02

  Because it's a, it's a, it's a a symbol of humility and submission before God. You don't have to be on your knees to pray. There's perfectly valid prayer if you're not on your knees. But um, if you can, I think you should be, and I think it's a good, and I think it's a good image for the kids to see. It's a good image. It's a good, it's good for my kids to see me on my knees praying. It's good for them to see.

• 58:13Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Because to my kids, I am the authority figure in the home. Uh, I don't answer to anybody in the home. I don't have to ask anyone's permission for anything. And I, I'm ultimately like the source of discipline in the home as the father, as I should be. But for them to see that, oh, even, even that guy, even dad, who in the home, you know, this is his castle, but even he is showing submission and obedience and humility toward, towards some power above him. I think that's a really powerful image for, for my kids to have and that I had with my, with my own dad growing up.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  So, uh, so we do that. And I think this is also, I think I'm, I'm at the point where my, it's kind of like my, my, my whole ideology, my political ideology at this point is that I want my kids to go to heaven. I want my kids to go to heaven and I want them, I want them to be good and happy people. That's what I want. So everything that we do in the home, and we're not perfect. We don't get this right perfectly, not even close to it. But everything we do in the home should be tailored towards that end to help our kids be good and happy people.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  And, uh, and that's also, those are the policies that I support, you know? I, I, this is, this is, that, that's my, that's my, those are my politics.

• 59:56Tucker Carlson?

  Sounds like Christian nationalism, Matt.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  Guilty as charged. I'm a nationalist. I'm a Christian, so.

• 1:00:02Tucker Carlson?

  Another term I have never heard defined. Um, well, that's, wow, what an interesting way to frame it. What a, what a great way to frame it. What do you think of as your duties as a husband and father?

• 1:00:17Speaker 02

  I think it's, um,

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  Provide.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  You know, we talked about gender roles, so I do believe that the father should be the provider in more ways than one. You know, you're providing financially, like bringing home the bacon is a really important part of that, and I think that the father should do that.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  But you're also providing

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  safety, security, you're protecting, protecting.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  And, you know, I know when you say that it sounds like, well, that's easy, because like, what are the chances that I'm actually gonna have to fight off some bad guy that breaks in the house? It's not, it could happen, it's not impossible.

• 1:01:03Tucker Carlson?

  They're increasingly high, actually.

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  Increasingly high.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  But I haven't had to do it yet, and maybe I'll never have to do, I hope I never have to do it.

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  But, but, but it's not just about that. You know, as a man, you should be, I believe, a stabilizing presence to your family. Like, when they're around you, they should just feel safer and calmer. And not necessarily because they're worried that a bad guy's gonna, that's part of it, but it's not just that. Like, they're, they're, the world's a confusing place, the world is a dark place, everyone has anxieties, and when you're there, they should just feel calmer and better, having you around. And if something goes wrong, if there's, you know, the shit hits the fan, there's, there's a problem,

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  they should be able to know that, okay, well, thank God Dad's here. Or thank God my husband's here. And I think that's, that's one of the central duties of a father, which, which means, which means that, you know, we've gotten away from, in large part in this society, we've gotten away from, we don't talk about Stoicism as a virtue anymore at all. No one really talks about that. I happen to believe in it a lot. I may take it a little bit too far, you know, I, maybe I err too much in that direction.

• 1:02:28Tucker Carlson?

  But if you had cancer, you wouldn't tell anybody?

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:02:34Tucker Carlson?

  I admire that.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I, if I was, it's easy to say, but I think if I was dying of cancer right now, you would not know, and I would never tell anybody.

• 1:02:43Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:02:46Speaker 02

  Because it's not your burden.

• 1:02:48Tucker Carlson?

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• 1:04:09Speaker 05

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• 1:05:09Tucker Carlson?

  I have seen this firsthand, including recently, and I vehemently agree with you. And I think it's a generous, specific thing. I think that's a man's burden.

• 1:05:17Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:05:18Tucker Carlson?

  Not to whine. But I, and I, again, I've seen it in a very profound way. It changed my life, actually, seeing it. But I haven't thought through why it's important, but I know that it is. It sounds like you have thought through why that's important. Why is it?

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Well, it goes back to what I said, that you, that as the man, you should be a stabilizing, protective force in the house. You should be a calming force in the house for your family. You should be relieving their anxieties to the extent that you can. If you are verbalizing all of your many complaints and your anxieties, then you've inverted that. Now, now you're looking to your wife and your children.

• 1:06:05Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  To sort of carry that burden.

• 1:06:07Tucker Carlson?

  As your emotional support animal.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  Right, right. And you're, you're turning to them to carry this.

• 1:06:11Tucker Carlson?

  Totally right.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  And I just, I don't, I don't believe in that. And I think that, um, that it is, it's just different. You know, women, it's, it's not the same for a woman. I think that women have, are much more relational. Women share their, you know, their feminine. It's, we used to say the fairer, gentler sex. And so it's just a different thing. And, and I also think for women, now, most women, I think I've been conditioned that, that they aren't allowed to say out this part out loud, but I think it's true that they also don't really want a man who's gonna... Complain and, and open up to them too much. I know, they, they.

• 1:06:56Tucker Carlson?

  Can you say that one more time?

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  They don't want to manage.

• 1:06:59Tucker Carlson?

  At a higher volume because I think that people need to, men need to hear this.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  Right. It's, women will, we have been conditioned to believe that opening up and sharing your emotions is just a good thing.

• 1:07:10Tucker Carlson?

  Crying in front of your girlfriend.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:12Tucker Carlson?

  She really wants you to cry.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  That's what we've been told. And your, and your girlfriend might, might tell you that. She might tell you, oh, you know what? I really want you to open up more.

• 1:07:23Tucker Carlson?

  But what's she thinking inside?

• 1:07:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:07:24Tucker Carlson?

  He's such a bitch.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  Yes. That's why you ne- never cry in front of your, uh, wife or your girlfriend. Like never. I mean, in the rarest of cases, you have a, you have a, a, a close family member dies. That's one thing. Your daughter walking down the aisle, but other than that, just never cry in front of them.

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Especially not because you're stressed out, because you're just dealing with some kind of anxiety. You know, and, and people think that this is extreme or they, or they want to pretend that, well, if women can cry, the men can cry. But just, I, I like, like, imagine a scenario.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Uh, let's say you're in the car. And it's, the weather gets really bad and then you get lost. Maybe the GPS goes out. And, and you're lost. Weather's bad. It's really stressful. One of those stressful things. It's the, it's dark, you know? It would not be uncommon in that scenario for, if you're with your wife, she might start crying. Like she's very nervous. She starts crying. Oh my gosh, we're lost. What are we going to do? And that would not be an uncommon thing. And as a man, you don't think less of your wife for that. Uh, hopefully you're, you're there to comfort her and say, no, I got this. We're going to be fine. We got it.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Now you as the man, if you started crying because you're stressed out and lost and it's dark and it's raining and you don't know where you're going.

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  And your wife saw that, she will never look at you the same way again. She will always remember that. She'll remember the time when it was stressful and she needed you to take over and be in control and figure it out. And you started crying like a little bitch. She will always remember it.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  And I think we, again, I think we all intuitively understand that. We understand that it's, it's, okay, in that scenario for the woman to cry is normal. For the man to cry, it's ridiculous. It's shameful.

• 1:09:28Tucker Carlson?

  But it's interesting that you said at the outset, we've been told the opposite. And it's almost like, well, it's not almost like it is, that all the ingredients in a successful marriage and family, and in fact, in a successful life, have been systematically targeted by the people in charge and their proxies for destruction. So like, everything you need to know to have a successful life has been undermined. Like, no, you definitely cry in front of your wife. Like, show your feelings. No, she should go get a higher paying job than you. Like, you should do more of the housework. Like, you need to be the woman actually in the relationship. No, it's totally fine to spend all Saturday playing video games while getting high or

• 1:10:13Tucker Carlson?

  whatever. Like, we're getting not just like three degrees off good advice, but we're getting 180 degrees opposite advice. It's like our society, I'm not, it's not like, our society has been targeted intentionally for destruction. And I'm wondering why? Where does that come from? If you read The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan, which came out, I think in the early 60s, you know, over 50 years ago, that book is like a recipe for destroying a society. And yet it was promoted, that's sort of the root of modern feminism. What is that? Is it spiritual? Are these like spiritual forces working to destroy the West? Are they, what, do you have any clue?

• 1:11:00Tucker Carlson?

  It's so comprehensive. Everything you've said is the opposite of what your kids are taught. In school.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  It's a, it's, it's certainly a spiritual attack. This, this all feels demonic because it is, in my opinion.

• 1:11:15Speaker 02

  It's also, it's, it's all an effort, I think, to just, to destroy the family, to, to upend the fundamental societal institution, which is the family.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Because all of the, you know, nefarious forces that want to control us, want to control, we do control what we think, control what our children think. The family is an enemy to them. The family is the one thing standing in the way.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  And so it, it's all about destroying the family. Even, even the, the, the things that seem little, like it's okay to cry in front of your wife.

• 1:11:55Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not.

• 1:11:56Speaker 02

  It's not. And, and that, again, that's an attack on the family. Because if, if a man takes that advice, and starts at acting feminine and emotional, it, it's going to hurt his marriage. It might destroy his marriage.

• 1:12:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  And so that's the ultimate goal. And, um, and I think a lot of it, I mean, you mentioned feminism. I think a lot of this does go back to feminism. I think that.

• 1:12:19Tucker Carlson?

  Was way more destructive than any plague in history.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Feminism by far and away is the most destructive ideology in human history. It's not even close.

• 1:12:28Tucker Carlson?

  I agree with that. Why do you say that?

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Well, let's start with the body count. Uh, sixty million dead babies since Roe, just in this country. And if we're talking worldwide, you know, hu- hundreds of millions. Uh, but in this country, sixty million children were killed by, through abortion, which is the feminist sacrament.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  So you really, you don't even need to go beyond that. That's, that's kind of enough, I think, to make the point. But of course you can.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Ever since feminism took hold, divorce rates have skyrocketed, birth rates have plummeted.

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  I mean, we're watching the, the disintegration of the family unit in real time. And people are, are, are less happy. They're unhappy. I mean, as, as much as there's this cliche kind of image of the nineteen fifty's housewife who, you know, was, was, was depressed and, and it was all the Hollywood films are always like. With this, with this image of the, the, the housewife was depressed and she was on whatever drugs secretly and you know, the, the husband was off having sex with the secretary. Um, and most of that is just Hollywood. It's a Hollywood cartoon. And in reality, it's kind of the opposite. Now is when all that is happening. The women are depressed,

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  anxiety riddled, on antidepressants. Men too. So, birth rates plummeting, 60 million dead babies. Divorce rates skyrocketed. People are unhappy. They're on antidepressants. You don't need to go much farther than that.

• 1:14:16Tucker Carlson?

  No, you don't. So let's say you're emerging from adolescence into the world you're describing now. You're 18, 18 year old male, um, American born. What's your program? What's your advice to that, to that kid? How do you make your way in this world? What do you do? How do you live a happy, meaningful life that gets you in the, in the end to heaven, given that, you know, you're facing these cultural headwinds? What would you do if you were 18 right now?

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  I would, I would do the same thing that I, a version of what I did do, you know? The roadmap is the same. Some of the obstacles are different. Some of the challenges are harder. Not all of them. In some ways it's, you know, there's, there are some things that are easier about today than, than 300 years ago, certainly. So a lot of the challenges might be different, but the, the basic path is the same. And you can't give up on it because to give up on it is, is despair. I mean, that's just giving up. So, hold fast to your faith. Number one. Number two.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  Figure out what your vocation is, you know, and, and you know, you'll have a professional vocation, something you're supposed to be doing with your life, and go and pursue that no matter what it is, and no matter how hard it is. And also keep in mind that if you're 18 years old, and I say this to younger guys all the time,

• 1:15:59Speaker 02

  in many ways, I'm, I admit, I'm quite happy that I'm not 18 years old, 20 years old in this environment. I am happy for that. And I'm certainly happy, thank God, that I'm already married, certainly.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  But you do have one huge advantage, um, one enviable advantage, which is that, which is the same advantage that every young man has had, that you're, you're young, you're hopefully physically healthy, uh, you're not married, you have no kids, you have no dependents.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  So you can, it's very low stakes, but you can go anywhere and try anything. Right? Like you don't, if you're looking around and saying, well, there are no jobs in my town. I can't find any jobs. Go to a different town. Go anywhere. Um, you can go, and if you end up living in your car for a week or two months, it's not great. That sucks, but you, you can do that because it's just you.

• 1:17:01Speaker 02

  Now for me, when I got six kids, so if things fall apart for me, it's much higher stakes and it's not as simple as I can't just like go anywhere and try to do anything. At this point, I can't just like, okay, well, I'll go get a job at McDonald's. It's not going to work. I got all these kids to take care of. But for you, you, you can go anywhere and do anything and you can take risks. And if it doesn't work out, it'll be hard, but it won't be disastrous.

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  So that's one thing.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  And, and that's your, whatever your professional vocation is. But there's the personal vocation that I think for all men is the same, which is that every man is called to be a father, every man.

• 1:17:46Speaker 02

  For most men, that will come in the form of biological fatherhood, not all. There are other forms of fatherhood. There's spiritual fatherhood. I think some men are called to religious life. If you're Catholic, called to the priesthood. You don't get married, but you're, you were still a father in a spiritual sense. But every man is called to fatherhood in some sense. No man, no man is called to, to live for himself only and serve only himself. No man is called to live a life where they go to work, come home, play video games, have no one depending on them. No one that they love. No one is called to that life. So go and pursue that, you know, go pursue that. And go pursue it fearlessly and know what you're looking for.

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  And realize that there, there are a lot of women who are also looking for the same thing. I hear from conservative Christian men all the time saying, I'm conservative, I'm Christian, there are no good women left.

• 1:18:43Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  There are no, there are no women out there who share my values.

• 1:18:46Tucker Carlson?

  Constantly you hear that.

• 1:18:48Speaker 02

  But then I also hear from women all the time who are conservative Christians saying, I'm conservative, I'm Christian, there are no good men, there are no men who share my values. And I'm like, well, you know, you guys, you're both out there, you, you both exist. I know you're out there. So you just have to pursue it and pursue it fearlessly and know what you're looking for. And, um, and, and don't waste your time. As a man, like, don't waste your time with women who you know don't share your fundamental values. When I, when I met my, my wife, we got engaged, six months later, we got engaged. So it was a quick, it was quick. And, uh, we talked about, on our first date, we talked about everything.

• 1:19:33Speaker 02

  We talked about religion, politics, everything. Just got it all out in the open. Because at that point, we were both, you know, I was 25, she was 24, but so young.

• 1:19:43Tucker Carlson?

  You're getting old.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. But by today's standards, that's, that's, you know, young to be getting married.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  But we didn't want to, we just didn't want to waste time. Like, what's the, what's the point? If we, if we have, if we, if our fundamental values don't align, then this, this can only end in heartbreak. So there's no point. I'm not going to waste my time. I'm not going to waste two years of my life dating this person when there's no future. And I know for a fact that the heartbreak is coming. It's the only way it can end. And I'm just delaying it for no apparent reason. I'm not going to do that. So we laid all that out really early on. And

• 1:20:26Speaker 02

  people ask like, well, how do you know that someone's values align with yours? Ask them. That's, that's one way to find out. Now, somebody can lie. But you can weed out a lot of people just by asking. And then, and then after you've done that and

• 1:20:43Tucker Carlson?

  Go to the polygraph stage.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Right, polygraph.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Well, that's where dating comes in and you kind of, you, you, you get to know them a little bit. It doesn't have to be that long. You don't need to date them for five years. It doesn't take that long to get to know someone, to, to know what they're really about, I think. And if somebody's a total fraud, if they're a terrible person, most people are not good at hiding it. Like, I think most of us can tell. I could talk to someone for two hours or less.

• 1:21:10Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  I could talk to someone for 20 minutes.

• 1:21:12Tucker Carlson?

  Easily.

• 1:21:15Speaker 02

  And if you're dating someone for six months, that's more than enough time. I mean, all the time you spend with them, it's more than enough time to figure out what they're really about. So

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  and it's still possible. And, and, and, and my, my, that's my main message to, to young men is that

• 1:21:33Speaker 02

  you know, there's this kind of, what do they call it?

• 1:21:36Speaker 02

  Mig Tao, men go their own way movement online among like some right wing men in the, what they, the manosphere.

• 1:21:43Tucker Carlson?

  What does that mean, men go their own way?

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  I, I, I guess it, it basically means, uh, the whole system is rigged against men. And the family courts are rigged.

• 1:21:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Everything's rigged.

• 1:21:54Tucker Carlson?

  It's all true.

• 1:21:55Speaker 02

  Which is true.

• 1:21:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  That's true. I don't deny it. What I deny is their conclusion, which is that

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  it's hopeless. Men just need to go their own way, do their own thing.

• 1:22:06Tucker Carlson?

  Like, like, go be gay?

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  I don't think that they would.

• 1:22:10Tucker Carlson?

  Sounds pretty gay to me.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  To me, it does. To me, it does. I think in practice, I don't know if it involves that in practice. I think often in practice just means go get a job, live your life on your own and give up on the.

• 1:22:21Tucker Carlson?

  No girls?

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Give up on the hope of, of, of ever like having a happy marriage because it's not possible.

• 1:22:29Tucker Carlson?

  Wake up by yourself every day?

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:22:32Tucker Carlson?

  That sounds like a lot of fun.

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  That's, that's, and that's despair. That is.

• 1:22:36Tucker Carlson?

  It's also, it's also weak. I mean, look, I think everything is rigged against men, obviously, particularly white men, obviously. But okay, then, you know, you've had tough tasks before. Make it your, your job, your duty to help fix it. Like, give the, give the middle finger to the people who are oppressing you and be happy. Build a great, happy life, have decent children. Like, that's the greatest possible.

• 1:23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:05Tucker Carlson?

  Counterattack.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. And that's exactly the right message is when someone says, well, everything's rigged. It's not fair. It's really hard. I might fail. Right. Okay.

• 1:23:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  That's the answer. Yeah. Yes, you're right. Okay.

• 1:23:28Speaker 02

  What now? Now that we've established that, now that we've established how bad it is, which we have. What now? What's next? What are you gonna do tomorrow? Now, we, we're all on the same page. It's rigged. It sucks. It's bad.

• 1:23:39Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  I hate it. I wish it wasn't this way. And yeah, even after everything I just said, you could still get married and somehow you end up with a sociopath who was able to hide it, which I think is rare, but it can happen. And then you have kids and she cheats on you and she takes the kids. She ruins your life.

• 1:23:56Tucker Carlson?

  Yep, yep. I've seen all that.

• 1:23:58Speaker 02

  That can happen.

• 1:23:59Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:24:02Speaker 02

  Okay. Now that we've established all of that, when you wake up in the morning tomorrow, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do with that information? What are you actually gonna do with your life?

• 1:24:14Tucker Carlson?

  You're gonna say to yourself, I'm not afraid because I'm a man. I could hit by a bus. I could get ALS. Like, the number of bad endings that are possible in your life is like limitless. And by the way, the end will be bad. Like, you're gonna die in pain and afraid. Okay, we know that. But knowing all of that, you still like. Have to be courageous and just jump face first into it anyway. I mean, that's kind of the whole point, right?

• 1:24:39Speaker 02

  Right. And especially when you have kids. Once you have kids, the possibility of tragedy increases exponentially.

• 1:24:48Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah. Wow.

• 1:24:49Speaker 02

  I mean, now you, because before it was like all the tragic things that can happen to you. Now it's one of all the tragic things that can happen to my kids.

• 1:24:57Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:58Speaker 02

  And then times up by however many kids you have.

• 1:25:00Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  And then you've got your wife and it's like, there are so many horrible ways that this could go.

• 1:25:07Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah. And may, and may.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  Right. But, but then, but then if any of that happens, what's the end result? The end result is, could be misery and despair. Okay. So then your solution is just to embrace misery and despair at the outset?

• 1:25:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  Because you're afraid that it might happen?

• 1:25:27Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  And I, and I, by the, you know, I would rather, for me, if I'm going to end up miserable and in some tragic scenario, which I hope doesn't happen, I'd rather it be because I went out and like lived a life.

• 1:25:46Tucker Carlson?

  It's one of the saddest things about this country. The country's getting sicker despite all of our wealth and technology. Americans aren't doing well overall. Obesity, heart disease, autoimmune conditions, all kinds of horrible chronic illnesses, weird cancers are all on the rise. Probably a lot of reasons for this, but one of them definitely is Americans don't eat very well anymore. They don't eat real food. Instead, they eat industrial substitutes and it's not good. It's time for something new. And that's where masa chips come in. Masa has decided to revive real food by creating snacks, how they used to be made, how they're supposed to be made. A masa chip has just three simple ingredients, not 117. Three. No seed oils, no artificial additives, just real delicious food. And I know this because

• 1:26:28Tucker Carlson?

  we eat a ton of them in my house. And by the way, I feel great. So you can still continue to snack, but you can do it in a healthy way with chips without feeling guilty about it. Masa chips are delicious. They taste how a tortilla chip is supposed to taste. But the thing is, you can hit them really, really hard, and I have, and not feel bloated or sluggish after. You feel like you've done something decent for your body. You don't feel like you got a head injury, or you don't feel filled with guilt. You feel light and energetic. It's the kind of snack your grandparents ate. Worth bringing back. So you can go to masachips.com. Masa is M A S A, by the way. masachips.com/tucker to start snacking. Get 25% off. We enjoy them. You will too.

• 1:27:08Speaker 05

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• 1:27:12Speaker 05

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• 1:28:09Tucker Carlson?

  Well, you are going to end up miserable in some tragic scenario at some point. That's just a fact. Like, we shouldn't hide that from ourselves, actually. Like, that's something horrible is gonna happen to you, for sure. You're gonna get the diagnosis. Somebody you love is gonna get the diagnosis, or worse. And the whole point is, you know, you're dad. You're not afraid.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:28Tucker Carlson?

  Right? I mean, you're running toward the sound of gunfire and away from it. That's like your whole role.

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I totally agree. That's, that's, of all the unpopular messages that we've talked about, that's probably the most unpopular.

• 1:28:40Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 1:28:41Speaker 02

  Is, is that like, it's gonna end in tragedy, no matter what. We're all gonna die. Like, we're all gonna die.

• 1:28:46Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, yeah, it's bad. Right. It's bad.

• 1:28:50Speaker 02

  That's the thing that nobody wants to think about and talk about. We should probably think about it and talk about it a lot more than we do.

• 1:28:56Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, the more you think about it, the lighter you're bearing and the more cheerful you are. If I was, I was reading someone recently who said, um, you know, meditating on death every day is the, is the most certain way to joy and cheerfulness and lighten us. I think that's right.

• 1:29:15Speaker 02

  I, I kind of agree with that. I mean, I read a book. There's this, um, there was a book that was written years ago called denial of death. Did you ever read that?

• 1:29:24Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:29:26Speaker 02

  And I'm blanking on the name of the guy who wrote it. It'll come to me. But anyway, the book is called denial of death. I don't agree with, it's kind of psychoanalytical. There's a lot of psychobabble in it. It was written by an author who ironically wrote this book, published it, won, I believe, a Pulitzer and died and died of cancer, I think. He didn't know that he had it when he wrote this book, but then he published the book and he died. But anyway, his, his, his kind of theory was that, like, all of modern society is actually fundamentally set up to distract us from the fact that we're gonna die.

• 1:30:05Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  That, that terror of death is what drives everything.

• 1:30:12Speaker 02

  And he takes that farther than I would probably take it, but I think there's actually a lot of truth to that. I remember I read this book and I, and I, and I, and I, and I could see a lot of that in my own, in my own life.

• 1:30:23Tucker Carlson?

  Of course.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  But then I, I discovered that, that once I, once I started actually thinking about that and meditating on it, maybe not literally meditating, but really thinking about it, I did become, I became less fearful somehow of it.

• 1:30:37Tucker Carlson?

  Of course, because you've, you've looked the monster in the face and like, accepted, you know, there is something snuffling under your bed, you know, okay. So how have your, um, well, two-part question. How have your views changed? And how has the definitions, speaking of definitions, of conservatism changed in, say, the past 20 years? Let's start with you.

• 1:31:02Speaker 02

  I don't know that any of my views have, they haven't fundamentally changed. I've, I've become more radical. I've certainly become radicalized on pretty much every issue. I'm, I'm just farther to the right on everything. Uh, my whole life I've just been, I started on the right. I come from a conservative Catholic family. And so I'm already starting like way over here and everything that's happened in the country and also in my personal life has only just moved me farther and farther. So that's the only way that my views and

• 1:31:32Tucker Carlson?

  Where does that lead at the end? Like, what's your view of Francisco Franco?

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  Where does it lead in the end?

• 1:31:40Tucker Carlson?

  No, like, what? So if you start right and you keep going right, where do you wind up?

• 1:31:44Speaker 02

  Are we still filming is the question?

• 1:31:49Tucker Carlson?

  Where is the 80 year old Matt Walsh on the issues?

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  That'll be interesting. They'll be interested to check in.

• 1:31:56Tucker Carlson?

  It'll be, I'll be long gone, but um.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  But I think, so that, that's, that's my own personal trajectory.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  The definition of conservatism though,

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  has, has only changed in that I think it's

• 1:32:15Speaker 02

  in that it, it has no definition. I, I think it's like so many, we talked about the words that don't mean anything anymore. Words that used to be useful and maybe used to mean something and they just don't anymore because of how they've been misused and abused and overused. Uh, and I think conservatism is another one of those words. I just, when you, when you tell me now that someone is conservative, uh, I, I don't, it doesn't tell me a lot about them. I don't know what you mean.

• 1:32:42Tucker Carlson?

  It generally means I'm not going to like them. Um, well, they're going to be some kind of fraud, you know, on the internet. Uh, luring people with false prophecy. That's kind of what I, that's, that's my gut reaction. So discredited has that word become. But I mean, what, the reason I asked this, it's a moving target. Of course, it means something different in every generation or maybe every year. But because Donald Trump just got elected after four, probably the worst four years since the American Civil War. Under Joe Biden, there is this like large group, tens of millions of people who are aligned in this thing, this movement, this block of voters, this ideology and what is it and how has it changed?

• 1:33:29Tucker Carlson?

  These are big questions, Matt. So I'm gonna let you, I'm gonna give you a second to pause.

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  Okay. Because I don't know what it is exactly is my point. I don't know what it is. I think it's, I know what it isn't, I think. So one thing that unites us is that we have this general idea of wokeness, leftism, whatever you want to call it.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  And we don't like that. So I think we all have that in common, you know, we, when we look at a a woman with blue hair and a nose piercing. Everyone on the right, we could look at that woman and we could say, we probably don't like her and we probably don't agree with anything she thinks.

• 1:34:09Speaker 02

  So we, we don't agree with the blue hairs. That's one thing we have in common.

• 1:34:13Tucker Carlson?

  And, and the main thing that we don't agree with them on is that we think free speech is like a foundational concept, the foundational concept of the United States. And if you have an opinion, you ought to be able to express it. And I thought this was what everybody agreed on. I thought this is why they voted for Trump. Shows you how dumb I am. And then I wake up and I see these people, many of whom I know, scolding Rogan, me, just scolding in general. You, you're not supposed to platform that person or that set of ideas or that, those are words that shouldn't be spoken. And I'm like, what, you know, we're a hundred days into this and already people I thought were on my side are mad because of like naughty words or concepts or ideas or questions,

• 1:34:55Tucker Carlson?

  questions. Literally people on the so-called right are mad about asking questions. It's like a parody or something. I thought that's like we made fun of the left, like they'd be like, just asking questions. Your questions are more than questions. They're assaults on me. And I'm literally hearing people on the right say that about me. So it pisses me off, but not, it's not just me. Like what the hell is going on?

• 1:35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't take you seriously. If you use the word platforming.

• 1:35:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  Negative. I don't, I don't take you seriously. I've already lost respect for you. That to me, that's a leftist thing that to me, that's the blue. When I think of the blue hair.

• 1:35:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  Woman with the nose piercing. I think of her as someone who scolds you for, why did you platform that person?

• 1:35:40Tucker Carlson?

  Well, that's why I don't like her. And you know, all things being equal, I'd feel sorry for her. She's got blue hair and a nose ring. There's no man who loves her like I feel sad for her. That would be my default view. The only reason I don't like her is because she's scolding me for platforming people she doesn't agree with.

• 1:35:54Speaker 02

  Right. Well, I don't like her for a lot of other reasons too, but I don't. You're not, you're a lot nicer than me. But yes, that so, so using that term is like a pejorative. As this forbidden thing is that that should be a leftist. I mean, that should be one of the quintessential, we think about wokeness. That's one of the quintessential features of wokeness, whatever that is exactly. Is this idea you don't want to platform people? Uh, I, I just don't agree with it. I mean, what, what is?

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  What does that even mean? And also.

• 1:36:28Speaker 02

  Usually when someone is accused of platforming someone else.

• 1:36:33Speaker 02

  It's like, it doesn't even make sense to begin with, because the person that they're saying is being platformed already had a platform. Like, we all have platforms. We're all, we're, we're out there saying what we think already. So usually when they say platforming, what they really mean is. You talked to that person. It's not that we don't want you to platform that person. They already had a platform. We don't want you to speak to that person. And have any kind of conversation with them.

• 1:36:58Tucker Carlson?

  But what they're really trying to do is set guardrails around my mind. And treat me like a slave, a non-human being. They're, they're trying to tell me you're not allowed to, to think certain things. And I reserve the right, I think it's an absolute right to think whatever I want. A, B, if you disagree with what I think, it's incumbent on you to convince me that I'm wrong. Through reason. Like, show me the countervailing evidence. It's not enough to say. My views are naughty. The person I'm talking to is naughty. They're discredited, they're bad. I mean, that's like a species of religion and a false religion, I would say. And yet I'm seeing that impulse that, that reveals a way of thinking that is totalitarian. And low and dumb and embarrassing and that I associate with the left, but I'm seeing it everywhere on the right. Like, what the, I'm trying not to use the F word.

• 1:37:43Tucker Carlson?

  What the heck is going on, Mount Walsh?

• 1:37:46Tucker Carlson?

  Like if I disagree with you, Matt Walsh, I would say, I disagree with you and here's why.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:51Tucker Carlson?

  And I would pay you the respect of taking your ideas seriously and trying to dissuade you from those ideas. I would not say, how dare you, Matt Walsh, think that? Because that's insulting not simply to you, but I'm insulting my own intelligence. That's how dumb people communicate, right?

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, I believe in free speech in principle, so people should, and to me, free speech is, it's not a complicated idea. Free speech means that you have the freedom to express whatever opinion or perspective you want.

• 1:38:23Tucker Carlson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Uh, I can agree or disagree, doesn't matter. Now, that doesn't extend to things like, in my mind, hardcore pornography. That's not speech. That's not an opinion that's being expressed. That is digital prostitution. But if it's an opinion, if you're just sending a message about what you believe, you should be able to do that, period. Um, so that's the first thing. But then also strategically, you know, when you start complaining about platforming, it's just a, it's a bad strategy because all, when, when you point to someone and you say that person shouldn't be platformed, uh, all you're doing, if you're worried about what that person is saying, all you're doing is making people more interested in what that person says. I know, I'm that way.

• 1:39:09Speaker 02

  If, if I hear that there's a controversy because so and so was platformed, and I've never heard of that person, I immediately say, oh, what's this person all about? I gotta look into them.

• 1:39:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:20Speaker 02

  I always do that.

• 1:39:21Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I, I take it one step farther and then book the person on the show.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:25Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, always, of course.

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  Because it's, it's like, and whatever it is you said that upset, upsets people, I'm interested because people are so upset. I might not agree with it, but I'm interested. Uh, and I, I just reject in principle. Like, if you are telling me that I shouldn't hear that person or talk to them or take them seriously or listen to their ideas, just in principle, I want to say, no, F you. Now I'm gonna listen even more. Now I'm gonna listen to a two hour podcast that I would have listened to otherwise just because you said that.

• 1:39:55Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. And especially if you don't explain the person's ideas and why they're wrong. I mean, I think a lot of ideas are wrong, and there are a lot of poisonous people out there selling crap, poisonous crap. I completely agree with that. I just think it's important, it's essential, it should be required to explain why it's wrong, not just that it's bad. What did you think of the debate? A lot of this kind of broke through the surface in the debate between Dave Smith and Douglas Murray on Rogan a couple of weeks ago. Did you watch that?

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  I did. I watched, I ended up watching, I wasn't planning on watching the whole thing, but I watched the whole thing over the course of a few days. It was a long debate. And, you know, I have a different, I come in with a different perspective than maybe some people who are really interested in the debate, in that I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't, everyone is, I'm constantly hearing from the peanut gallery demanding that I kind of give my verdict or my take on Israel and Israel versus Palestine and all this kind of stuff. And I have given my take, and my take is, I don't care that

• 1:41:07Speaker 02

  much. So I just don't care that much. I'm not just America first, I'm an American chauvinist in that I only care about my own country. I honestly don't care about other countries. I wish them well. I don't wish any of them, I don't wish them ill. I wish the people of other countries well. I think they all have a right to defend themselves, and they should. I think that if you can't defend yourself as a nation, or if you can't survive without being propped up by another government, say ours, then you shouldn't exist as a country. That's just the way of the world. So.

• 1:41:43Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, wait, wait. If you can't exist without being propped up by another government, say ours, you shouldn't exist. Israel cannot exist without being propped up by the United States.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  You think so?

• 1:41:56Tucker Carlson?

  Its nuclear program came from the United States, its weapons come from the United States, its economy is supported by the United States. I'm not attacking Israel, I'm just saying in point of fact, I think that's true. And, I mean, Israel thinks it's true, or they wouldn't have armies of lobbyists and influencers in the United States. Bibi wouldn't have shown up twice in the past three months.

• 1:42:15Speaker 02

  From my perspective, it seems like they can handle themselves quite fine.

• 1:42:22Speaker 02

  But any country, if there is any country out there that fundamentally cannot exist without being subsidized by American taxpayers, then not only should that country not exist, but that country already does not exist. It's not really-

• 1:42:41Tucker Carlson?

  That's interesting.

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  It's not really a country.

• 1:42:43Tucker Carlson?

  Right? No, it's-

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  And unless we want to go back to the old way, which was, you know, back in the bad old days, when we did real empires, you know, if you want to just be conquered and you're going to be, you're going to be a vassal state of ours, and we're going to sort of own you, then that's one system. But we don't really do that, at least not directly anymore. So if you-

• 1:43:12Tucker Carlson?

  Can I ask you, that's such an interesting, not only does it have no right to exist, it already doesn't exist. It's not a real country.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, not a real country. If, any country that that-

• 1:43:21Tucker Carlson?

  Right, that's true of.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now, I'm not convinced at all that that is true of Israel. I'm not convinced at all-

• 1:43:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know either, by the way, and I think Israel seems like a perfectly functional and strong country, including with a strong economy that goes up and down, but basically, I mean, they have a robust tech sector, they've got a lot going for them. And so I think I kind of agree, I'm just saying, they don't seem to feel that way, but who knows what the truth is.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  I think that if we were to withdraw, I think we should withdraw all federal, all foreign aid from every country. You know, I don't think we should be doing it at all. I think if we-

• 1:43:55Tucker Carlson?

  Really?

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think if we did that, I think Israel would still exist. I think if we took away all the foreign aid tomorrow, next week, two months from now, Israel would still be-

• 1:44:05Tucker Carlson?

  I agree with that.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  A country.

• 1:44:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  There are probably other countries on the planet that just would not exist anymore.

• 1:44:11Tucker Carlson?

  But countries have to make more realistic decisions when there's no backstop, in the same way that people do, and in the same way that people on welfare or people with trust funds equally kind of tend to make terrible decisions about their own lives. I think it's also true for countries. You get way overextended when you're dependent.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this is, and by the way, this is, when I say- That a country that can't survive without us shouldn't exist or doesn't exist. That's not any kind of like moral judgment. It's just, this is the way of human civilization. You, you, you have to be able to, you, you have to be able to stand on your own two feet to, to be, to even qualify as a country.

• 1:44:54Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  And I think the American taxpayers have been saddled for many years now with propping up country after country after country. When that, that is not a responsibility that should fall to me or you or to my kids. Our responsibility is, is to our, is to ourselves. And it's also true of us. If we could not exist.

• 1:45:19Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:45:20Speaker 02

  You know, if, if, if we were depending on welfare from some other country in order to exist, then I would say that like we, we're not a country anymore. So, you know, take it away and like, let whatever happens, happens. Let, let the thing fall apart and maybe from the ashes, we can build a real country. That would be my take if it was true of us. So.

• 1:45:40Tucker Carlson?

  How did we get? Um, I, I vehemently agree with you. I don't think I've ever heard it as well put. But I don't think anything you said is radical. I think it's, as you just said, it's the way of human civilization. How do we get to a place where that qualifies as a radical view?

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  I think it's, it's, people have been conditioned that, um, you know, xenophobia is a, is a, is a great sin. And so I don't know, it's this, I don't really understand it because I've never felt it. But for a lot of people, they just, it, it, it feels wrong to them to actually prioritize their own country. It feels, it, I guess it feels unnatural to people, which is crazy. It's bizarre, uh, because to me it's the most natural thing in the world. Like I, it's not, it should not be controversial to say, I care more about my country than I care about anybody else. I care more about the people in my country than I care about anyone else.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  And the amount that I sort of care about you, it, it increases the closer you are to me.

• 1:46:53Speaker 02

  That's the way people work. So I care the most about my own kids. I care more about my own kids than anyone else. If my kids are in a fire and someone else is in a fire, I'm saving my own kids a thousand times out of a thousand. If I had to choose between one of my kids and a thousand other people, I'd save my kid over the thousand. Because that's, that's my, you know, they're my kids. That's my blood. And, and then, you know, branching out from there. I care about my, my family, my, my larger family. I care about from there, my community, where I live.

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  And then, you know, there's a subsidiarity and then, and then branching out from there, I care

• 1:47:38Tucker Carlson?

  Centric circles of obligation.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  Exactly. And that's, that should just be so natural. That's, that's how people work. And, and that's how everyone works. Like, if I told you, anyone who hears this and thinks that it sounds cruel or something, well, if I came to you and told you that your friend's child died, you would be really broken up, I would assume.

• 1:48:06Tucker Carlson?

  In tears, yeah.

• 1:48:07Speaker 02

  You'd be in tears about it. If I came to you and said, you know, just a few minutes ago, a child in China was hit by a car and died. You would say, that's, that's too bad.

• 1:48:22Tucker Carlson?

  It's sad.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  And then you would not think about it again.

• 1:48:26Tucker Carlson?

  Correct.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  You would move on with your life and never even think about it. Even though that's a child, it's a child, the child died. It's a terrible thing. It's really sad. Objectively, that child in China dying objectively is as terrible as your friend's child dying. But your attachment to that child in China is much less, is basically non-existent.

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  Um, your obligation to that child is

• 1:48:53Tucker Carlson?

  But the idea is that what you're describing is sentiment, sentimentality, really. And that it's our job as evolved beings to override that false sentimentality with like a clearer moral code.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  I don't think it is sentiment. I think it's the opposite. I think the idea that we should

• 1:49:12Tucker Carlson?

  But you know what I mean? Like

• 1:49:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what they

• 1:49:14Tucker Carlson?

  This is effective altruism, actually. It's like, no, that every human life has equal value, which I think you would agree with as a Christian.

• 1:49:21Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah.

• 1:49:22Tucker Carlson?

  Therefore, our obligation to every human being is identical.

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  And I, and, and you're right that they would. So what I'm saying, they would call false sentimentality, but, but that is false sentimentality. This idea that we're citizens of the world and we value everyone the same is a false sentiment. No one actually thinks it. You know, you would save your own child from the fire. Is it because you think your child has more moral worth than anyone else's child? No. Is it because your child dying in a fire is objectively more sad than someone else's child? No. But that's your blood. That's not sentiment. That's your blood. That's your family. But that means something.

• 1:50:07Tucker Carlson?

  But blood doesn't matter. Genetics aren't real.

• 1:50:11Speaker 02

  I think it's the most, it's one of the most real things there is, you know? And, um, and it's obligation, you know, it's, it should also be, it should be inherent. It's instinctual, but it's also, you have an obligation to your child. And then branching out of the concentric circles.

• 1:50:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  You have, you have an obligation to your country and you have an attachment. You should have an attachment to your country and a pride in your country. These are your people. This is your history. These are your ancestors.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  And

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  and so that's it. I mean, and to me, it's the most, it's the most natural thing in the world. And

• 1:50:51Tucker Carlson?

  So nationalism is, is not really an ideology. It's just like nature. It's just the default position. It's like

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Yes, it's the natural state of human beings.

• 1:51:03Tucker Carlson?

  Natural state of

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  It's the natural way that societies are organized. That's all nationalism.

• 1:51:06Tucker Carlson?

  Why is everyone afraid of it and against it?

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  I think it's, it's a lot of it is confusion, not understanding what nationalism even is.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  It's part of the kind of globalist agenda. It's part of this destructive. Like I said, a lot of it comes down to destroying the family and, and we do that by inverting everybody's priorities.

• 1:51:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  So that like they want to get you to the point where you're, where you're more concerned about

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  peace in Ukraine than you are about

• 1:51:44Speaker 02

  protecting your own child.

• 1:51:45Tucker Carlson?

  Well, they've absolutely succeeded, by the way.

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  They have.

• 1:51:48Tucker Carlson?

  Go on social media, which I really try to avoid, but whenever I go on it and it's all right wingers or whatever they are now, but it's all Trump voters, right? In my feed. They're yelling at each other over mostly about Israel, but also about Ukraine, but about foreign countries. That's what they're mad at. I mean, they're totally obsessed. And by the way, I think it's legitimate to have views on all foreign. I've got a million views on a million different foreign countries, including those two, but that's their overriding concern. It does seem, I hate the word op, but it does seem like by design, someone has sapped the vital energy from Trump's voting base by convincing them that what's happening in these foreign countries is more important than what's happening in their own. That's what I see. Do you see this?

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  I do see it and, and I don't. I don't understand it. I don't understand why. How do we get to a point where? The dominant conversation in this country is about what's happening in other countries. I don't, I don't understand it. I don't understand the people that are obsessively focused on it, on either side of it, really.

• 1:52:57Tucker Carlson?

  I agree.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  Because.

• 1:53:01Tucker Carlson?

  Can I say, America's role in the world is a different question. Like, we play a role in the world, we certainly have. What's the appropriate role is a question that Americans should be concerned with because it's our money and the lives of our young men. So, but this is something different. You're saying people's like obsession about a foreign conflict between two like foreign actors. Is that what you're saying? Or I don't want to put words in your mouth.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Obsession with a conflict.

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  Taking any foreign country and making it the centerpiece of our political debates makes no sense to me.

• 1:53:42Speaker 02

  And I think people on either side do that.

• 1:53:45Tucker Carlson?

  My senses.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  When I go on Twitter, go on X, and no matter what the topic is, it seems, it's like, you know, it used to be six degrees of Kevin Bacon or whatever.

• 1:53:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  Now it's two degrees of Israel. It's like, no matter what the topic is, it always comes back for a lot of people to Israel, one way or another. And that's not how I see it. I don't see Israel as the centerpiece of any of these debates at all.

• 1:54:15Tucker Carlson?

  It does seem like it's blowing, or blowing up is probably too strong, but it's definitely dividing

• 1:54:21Tucker Carlson?

  the, you know, Trump's voter base, big time. Do you feel that?

• 1:54:25Speaker 02

  I do, and it's a shame. Because why are we being divided over that of all things?

• 1:54:31Tucker Carlson?

  Let's be divided over fentanyl or X or whatever, something, you know what I mean?

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's going, going all the way back to what, actually, your question that I never answered.

• 1:54:41Tucker Carlson?

  I don't think I gave you a chance. It was often so.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  Well, I was, I was also off. But about the Dave Smith and Douglas Murray debate.

• 1:54:50Speaker 02

  My point was, I'm going into it. I don't really have a dog in the fight. I don't know why these guys either. And I don't know either of the guys. I don't really, I'm not following the issue that closely. I'm just not. I'm focused on America. And so I'm, I'm really just interested to see how this turns out. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm listening to both arguments. And I thought that Douglas Murray, who seems like a really smart guy. I thought he made a crucial mistake in the debate. By starting, it seemed like the first 45 minutes to an hour was this, kind of this litigation over who's an expert and who isn't.

• 1:55:33Speaker 02

  And that's just not, you're not going to win the argument that way. Nobody wants to hear it. Nobody should want to hear it. Credentialism, you're not an expert. You know, we, we've seen what the expert class has given us, especially over the last five years.

• 1:55:50Tucker Carlson?

  Pretty good job or no?

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  I would, I would give it a solid D minus. Very generous, very generous. So nobody wants to hear it. Nobody wants to hear about, about calling yourself an expert. Goes back again to words that don't mean anything anymore.

• 1:56:06Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:07Speaker 02

  That's a word that should mean something. It should, it is possible. Expertise is a real thing. There are people who can be experts on a subject. I would hope that the pilot of my plane is an expert in flying a plane. As we've seen, we can't, we can't rely on that being the case either anymore. But that's what it should mean. But we've also used the word expert and applied it to people who are making outrageously false claims. I mean, the experts are the ones who told us that, you know, you can castrate your son and turn him into a girl. That was the expert opinion. That was the opinion of the expert class for years. And, and

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  still is with some of them. So in a world like that, in a world where the experts are telling us that women have penises and men can have babies, the word expert just doesn't mean anything anymore.

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  It should, but it doesn't. Which means that if you're gonna have this conversation, skip past that. We don't need like, we don't need to litigate what an expert is or who an expert is.

• 1:57:13Tucker Carlson?

  You wanna begin with the merits of the debate?

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  Right, just, just get into it. It doesn't matter. This guy that you're sitting next to, whether he's an expert or not, makes no difference. I don't care if he's a scholar. I don't care if he's a homeless guy you just pulled off the street. His arguments are valid or they aren't.

• 1:57:31Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  And that's all that matters. That's all that anyone cares about.

• 1:57:35Tucker Carlson?

  This went on for an hour?

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, I'd say the first hour was, was about who was an expert and who isn't.

• 1:57:41Tucker Carlson?

  What is that? I mean, Douglas Murray is famous for being smart. What do you think that was?

• 1:57:47Speaker 02

  I don't know. I, I honestly don't. I thought it was a, it just a strategic error. Um, a pretty serious one. And then, by the time you actually get into the debate, then a lot of people have just kind of checked out because it comes off as kind of snobbish. And it comes off as, you know, it's credentialism as, as you're trying to invalidate the argument before it's even presented. So, that, that was the mistake. Then when they actually got into the actual conversation, I found it to be, I just thought it was interesting. I really did. And I thought they both made valid points. They both know more about the subject than I do.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  A lot more. That was very clear to me. And I, I think if you could chop off the first hour of the debate, it was an interesting conversation.

• 1:58:40Tucker Carlson?

  Who do you think made a more compelling case on the, once they actually got down to the question at hand?

• 1:58:55Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think that, so Douglas Murray said one thing. He made one point that I thought was, was really good, which is a simple one. I like simple points.

• 1:59:06Tucker Carlson?

  Me too.

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  And at one point he asked Dave, because once they got into arguing about what happened after October 7th, how Israel responded.

• 1:59:18Speaker 02

  And Dave has all of his criticisms about what Israel has done. And then Douglas Murray said, uh, said, well, what, what would you, what would you have them do? What, what, what would you prefer to have for them to have done? If they want to rescue the hostages and also destroy Hamas? What, what do you want them to do instead? And then from what I remember, Dave, he pointed out that, okay, destroying Hamas and rescuing hostages are kind of, are not necessarily the same objective. Uh, and then they started talking about rescuing hostages. They didn't really circle back to the destroying Hamas part. And I would have liked to see him stick on that point. Like, get an answer.

• 2:00:03Speaker 02

  Well, so, so if you're Israel, you have a foreign, you know, these, these foreign enemy that's come into your country, uh, slaughtered hundreds of people. What should, how should you respond to that? And I think he should have, uh, he should have pressed that and he, and he didn't. And so it became, it was sort of unfocused. Cause I would have, I would legitimately like to hear the answer to that. For sure. What, what would you have them do? So we could talk about maybe there are other ways to rescue the hostages. But do you think they should try to destroy Hamas? Given what happened?

• 2:00:42Speaker 02

  And if you do, how else should they go about it? But they kind of moved on to other things and it became this kind of, it became a sort of unfocused, in my mind, sort of like circular conversation. As these debates tend to devolve into very often.

• 2:00:59Tucker Carlson?

  If you were in control of what people on Twitter debated, what would they be debating right now?

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  Everything we talked about for the first, you know, hour of this conversation is, is what? Like, let's talk about the war on the family.

• 2:01:17Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  Uh, on marriage. Things that affect our kids. You know?

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  How do we, how do we raise healthy, happy kids? Let's talk about that.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Any of these issues is like serious, deep cultural issues in our country.

• 2:01:35Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 2:01:35Speaker 02

  Is what we should be talking about in my mind.

• 2:01:39Tucker Carlson?

  You feel like it's very hard to go from affluence to less affluence. It's very hard to move backward. It's like hard for the human brain to deal with it, but it's possible.

• 2:01:50Tucker Carlson?

  You feel like the United States could become significantly poorer, not poorer, but less rich than it is now. And still remain cohesive and happy. People with meaningful lives who love their neighbors and their spouses and their children. But you, you, you're not going to do that without families. You can't do that if people are living in studio apartments by themselves with their cats. Like that's just not going to happen, right?

• 2:02:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:16Tucker Carlson?

  So I just think objectively, that's the most important issue. Why isn't it the topic of discussion or debate? And why did the Republican Party shunt aside social conservatives like circus freaks for 40 years? Like, what was that?

• 2:02:34Speaker 02

  I think there are a lot of people invested in it not being the topic of conversation because once you start talking about it, you start noticing things that they don't want you to notice.

• 2:02:44Speaker 02

  Well, you start noticing who the, you know, this, the, the, the actual agenda to destroy the family, to destroy marriage. You start, you start noticing that.

• 2:02:58Speaker 02

  You know, we, we veered off.

• 2:03:02Speaker 02

  Took kind of a left turn, veer off away from the way civilization was structured for thousands of years. It hasn't really worked out.

• 2:03:11Speaker 02

  You start looking at any of these things and you, and you say, okay, well, we started making all these changes, all these reforms, all this supposed progress.

• 2:03:19Speaker 02

  And a lot of the, these wheels have been in motion for decades.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  How has it worked out? You know, what, what, what's, what, what, what, by, by its fruits, you shall know it. So how has it worked out? None of it has worked out.

• 2:03:36Speaker 02

  And I think you noticed that, and, and I think there are people who don't want you to. And also some of these social issues, when you're talking about families and these kinds of things, it hits closer to home.

• 2:03:46Tucker Carlson?

  That's for sure.

• 2:03:47Speaker 02

  As it should.

• 2:03:48Tucker Carlson?

  More than tax rates, you could hurt people's feelings. Yeah.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  It hurts, it's closer to home. And so people feel everyone has, they have their own hangups. They have their own sensitivities. They have maybe mistakes they feel they've made in their own families, their own marriages, with their own kids, and they feel indicted, I think. So I think for, for some people, it's just feels it's safer to talk about issues that are 10,000 miles away.

• 2:04:13Tucker Carlson?

  Do you ever get, I mean, there are plenty of conservatives, so-called influencers, who, you know, have personal lives that are what you're describing as bad. Do they ever call you and say, hey, Matt Walsh, you hurt my feelings?

• 2:04:27Speaker 02

  I certainly don't call me. No, they don't call me to say it, but plenty of conservative influencers, quote unquote, will, you know, they'll, I'll say something, they'll send out a tweet, they'll attack me publicly. So I'd much prefer the call. I'd much prefer the, it's not hard to get my number if you're in the, you know, business or send me a message or something, but people don't generally do that. That's not how people operate.

• 2:04:55Tucker Carlson?

  Have you noticed that like a huge percentage of war crazed Republican senators are secretly gay? What is that?

• 2:05:05Speaker 02

  Are they?

• 2:05:05Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah. Like, what is that? What is the connection between?

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  Which are the ones that are secretly gay?

• 2:05:12Tucker Carlson?

  I don't know, that the ones who are secret about it. But there is some kind of, I, I guess all I'm saying, I'm not being catty. I'm trying not to be catty or cruel or whatever. But I do think there's a connection to the way that you live at home, connection between the way you live at home and like the policies that you espouse and the impulses that you have and like the vision that you have for the country you lead. Like, I don't, I don't really know if you want people with like truly unsettled, dark personal lives with power. Do you?

• 2:05:43Speaker 02

  No. I mean, I, I, even outside of the people running the country, I

• 2:05:51Speaker 02

  I automatically have at least some semblance of respect for a man if you know, he's a good husband and a good father. And you can't always tell that, but I think often you can. And those are the kinds of people I want to surround myself with. I don't want to be around people who aren't. Um, people have disordered personal lives. I don't, I don't really want to be around them. So if I don't want to be around them, I don't want them running the country.

• 2:06:15Tucker Carlson?

  Fair. Last question, broad question, 100 days into Trump, how's it going? Are you, are you happy with it? I assume you vote, you voted for Donald Trump?

• 2:06:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:29Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, has it been what you expected?

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  It, it, in some ways, it's been better than I expected in some significant ways. I, I, I think that my number one criticism of Trump in his first term was despite all the talk about how he's a fascist dictator, in, in reality, in his first term, it seemed to me he was very shy about wielding his power and his authority. Um, he seemed to be a lot more worried about what people say about him, what the media says about him, a lot more focused on the coverage and all that sort of thing. And this time around, that doesn't seem to be the case, you know, and jumping in with 2,000 executive orders or whatever it was, dozens, um, touching on some real hot button controversial issues.

• 2:07:16Tucker Carlson?

  What was your favorite?

• 2:07:20Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, as someone who's been really invested in this issue, there's several executive orders, uh, dealing with gender ideology. I mean, even something as simple as illegally defining what a man or woman is, we shouldn't have to do that, but we did, and he did. Um, prohibiting to the extent that it's possible from his position, the castration and mutilation of children. Now Congress has to follow up with these executive orders and codify them into law, which hasn't happened with, I don't think any of them, which I am worried about because the thing about an executive order is that when the next guy gets in there, if he's a Democrat, he can just, he can undo that as quickly as

• 2:08:04Speaker 02

  it was done. So, uh, that's, that's a, it's a Band-Aid. It's not the permanent solution.

• 2:08:13Speaker 02

  Why hasn't, why hasn't there been a law yet passed by Congress federally banning the mutilation and castration of children?

• 2:08:22Tucker Carlson?

  Cause they're for it.

• 2:08:25Speaker 02

  For it, or they, or they don't care that much?

• 2:08:29Tucker Carlson?

  Well, same thing, you know, same thing, I think. I mean, if you, you're in a position to stop something, it's not that hard. And you don't, I think it's fair to assume you approve of that thing.

• 2:08:40Speaker 02

  You, yeah, you approve of it, or you just don't, you don't, you don't, it's, you don't care enough to try to stop it, which effectively it's, it's one and the same.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  So I, all that was good. I liked all that. And I think that he's using his powers, authority. He's not, he's not, he's not afraid to do that this time around, which I think is really good. If there's one major criticism or, or area for improvement, it's, you know, I don't know what the deportation numbers are exactly. I think they should probably be a lot higher.

• 2:09:17Speaker 02

  Easier said than done, of course. And also we have to, I acknowledge that there are fewer people coming in now, you know, which is going to bring your deportation numbers down. But I think that should be a lot higher. And, and I think, I think that, I understand politically focusing on illegal aliens who have committed heinous crimes. We should focus on them, but not just them. I mean, we should be deporting anyone who's in this country is not supposed to be here. You know, I don't care if you had a speeding ticket or a DUI or a manslaughter charge. I mean, I care, that's a big difference, but in any of those cases, or if you had nothing, you shouldn't be in the country.

• 2:10:01Tucker Carlson?

  Then, but there are plenty of people, the majority, I would say, of people in Washington are arguing the opposite, which is like, you know, it doesn't matter that they're breaking the law. That's what they're arguing. In fact, they should be protected as they break the law. So why are you following laws? As someone who was born here, paying all the taxes for all this stuff. Like, are you following the law?

• 2:10:21Speaker 02

  As far as you know, I am, yeah.

• 2:10:25Tucker Carlson?

  Text your wife and find out. Um, I hope not because you'd be an idiot to do that, wouldn't you?

• 2:10:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, well, except that, of course, I realize that this, this, you know, get out of jail free card is doesn't is not, does not apply to everybody.

• 2:10:38Tucker Carlson?

  But do you feel like a fool? Like you're propping up a system with at least half of the money you make every year, at least half, more than half, if you total it all up, even in Tennessee. And you're paying for a system in which like you're the, it's only downside for you.

• 2:10:58Tucker Carlson?

  And it's upside for people who are mocking the laws that you pay to enforce. I don't like, do you feel like a foolish?

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, you feel like a sucker, but also what's the, what's the alternative? Because if I were to say, well, hey, if they don't have to follow the law, then neither do I. Well, really quickly, the system will come along and disabuse me of the notion that this is a, that this is.

• 2:11:18Tucker Carlson?

  That you have as many rights as a Haitian, who's there illegally.

• 2:11:21Speaker 02

  Exactly. Because I don't. So that won't apply to me, especially as a, you know, as a dreaded white man. So, uh, so we're kind of left with no choice.

• 2:11:32Tucker Carlson?

  I'm only throwing it out there because you said you were becoming much more radical and I'm trying to accelerate the process by pointing out some things that I want you to think about.

• 2:11:38Speaker 02

  I appreciate that. It'd be hard to accelerate it at this point.

• 2:11:45Tucker Carlson?

  I love it. There's a forest fire of truth within you. Matt Walsh, thank you for submitting to all this. That was, I really enjoyed it.

• 2:11:51Speaker 02

  Appreciate it. Thank you.

• 2:11:52Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you.

• 2:11:57Tucker Carlson?

  We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor, hit, follow and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter, telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate it. Thanks for watching.