Episode 372

Thirty-three-year-old Jason Schaefer was delivering mail on a quiet afternoon in Longmont, Colorado, when bullets assaulted him. Witnesses saw a figure run from the mailboxes, covered in a hoodie and mask, and at first, the case seemed to point in one direction. But as detectives traced Jason’s final day, they uncovered a tangled web of jealousy, custody fights, family betrayal, and secrets hiding in plain sight, all surrounding a young father who never made it home from work. Get instant access to all episodes, including premium unreleased episodes, commercial-free at swordandscale.com

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence and is not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I don't know his life anymore. I am no longer a part of it. He made that perfectly clear when he decided to sleep with my sister.

• 0:35Mike Boudet?

  On the morning of October 13th, 2021, Jason Schaefer is halfway through his mail delivery route in Longmont, Colorado. It's a more recent subdivision of oversized symmetrical homes, sitting close together on small lots, much like the rest of America. Jason drives slowly from box to box. He's been at it since early that morning. So after starting his route, Jason stops for a few minutes to see his live-in girlfriend, Rosa, as he frequently does during the day. Jason's son is at school, Rosa leaves for work, and Jason goes back to his route.

• 1:18Mike Boudet?

  It's the same old, same old. Stop the truck, open the door, step out, sort the mail. The door stays open behind him, and the truck beeps at him on and off all day. Jason is close to the mailbox when the first loud pop rings out. There's no time to question what it is, whether it's a car backfiring, a construction hammer, or something else. The force hits his body. Before realizing what's happening, there's more.

• 1:49Speaker 03

  Is that not 911? Address the emergency.

• 1:52Speaker 04

  Yes, hi, I'm at 2005 Sicily Circle. I need an ambulance. Our post office guy was just shot. I heard four shots, and he's down. There's a FedEx. I'm checking on him right now. I am not. I can go there.

• 2:13Speaker 03

  Okay, can you, yeah, I need to know what happened to him.

• 2:17Mike Boudet?

  Jason goes down beside the passenger side of his mail truck, his body falling partly into the road, his head near the curb. He's unconscious. Blood gushes from his mouth, and his face is disfigured. A huge, deep gash sits above the right eye, and a bullet hole pierces his cheek just under the left eye. Other wounds are visible, too. One on his upper right chest, another on the middle left of his back. Envelopes are strewn all over the road. The truck is still there, of course, and the door is still open. The truck's beeping rings through the air in this residential community.

• 3:07Speaker 04

  Is he breathing? Yes, he is breathing. He is breathing. Please send an ambulance.

• 3:13Speaker 03

  Okay, ma'am, I am sending them. I'm sending them. I need you to answer the questions that I have. Where is he bleeding from?

• 3:21Speaker 05

  He was in a black hoodie, and he ran that way.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  Ma'am, where is he bleeding from?

• 3:27Speaker 04

  He's bleeding out of his mouth.

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Okay, can you tell where his mouth is?

• 3:35Speaker 04

  He was shot. Can you guys tell where he was shot? Can you tell where he was shot?

• 3:44Speaker 03

  Did anyone witness this?

• 3:47Speaker 04

  Um, I don't know if anybody saw exactly. We saw someone run. We heard four shots.

• 3:54Speaker 03

  Okay, which way did the person run?

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Um, down Renaissance.

• 4:02Mike Boudet?

  Witnesses at the scene are still trying to figure out what happened, and if this guy's gonna make it. But they also described seeing another man flee the scene.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  Okay, what was that person wearing?

• 4:14Speaker 04

  A hoodie.

• 4:16Speaker 05

  Blue mask.

• 4:17Speaker 04

  Blue mask. Yeah, I couldn't identify him. I just saw a backside of a man running away after four shots.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Is he conscious? Is he breathing? Does somebody have pressure on a wound? Can we find a wound?

• 4:38Speaker 04

  I'm honestly afraid to touch him.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  Okay, if he is injured and he's been shot, somebody needs to touch him because we need to know what's going on.

• 4:48Speaker 04

  I don't think he's breathing anymore.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Okay, we're gonna need to do CPR if he's not breathing. Are you outside?

• 4:57Speaker 04

  I am.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Are we able to do CPR? Can I talk to somebody who's willing to do CPR?

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Can everybody do CPR on him?

• 5:08Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh.

• 5:10Speaker 04

  Um, there's only me and my neighbor, and I don't think he's breathing anymore.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Okay, is there anyone there who is going to do CPR?

• 5:22Speaker 03

  I know it doesn't seem like he's breathing, but I need somebody to get close enough to him to confirm that for me, and then to do CPR if that is the case.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  I don't know what to tell you. I need help.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  I understand that, ma'am. Is there anyone else there with you who's the person that you were talking to?

• 5:40Speaker 04

  My neighbor, Katie, she and I are standing here, and we're very afraid, and I don't know how to do CPR.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Okay, I will tell you how to do CPR if you will go to him.

• 5:53Mike Boudet?

  Listen, when you're faced with an emergency, there are two kinds of people. The kind that hop in action and save a life, and whatever this woman is. I mean, who has the time?

• 6:07Speaker 04

  Okay, we have the police. We have the police. I'm gonna let you guys.

• 6:11Mike Boudet?

  As soon as paramedics get there, they rush to Jason's lifeless body and start CPR.

• 6:23Speaker 06

  7219, we're at the corner of Heather Hill and Renaissance, and I'm out with Wheeler.

• 6:29Speaker 07

  Copy Heather Hill and Renaissance.

• 6:31Mike Boudet?

  The paramedics kept pushing. They know that even if Jason doesn't have a pulse, they still have a duty. CPR is the only thing buying time. It keeps the blood moving to the brain and heart for a few more minutes, and sometimes those minutes matter. So when officers and paramedics reach Jason, they keep going. One person starts compressions, and another takes over, and keeps switching back and forth.

• 7:00Speaker 06

  Do you need to take over? You do what you need to do.

• 7:03Speaker 07

  I'm not close enough. Somebody set up a compression. He's gonna, my witnesses say now, he went south from Heather Hill Circle.

• 7:13Speaker 06

  Suction is necessary.

• 7:16Speaker 06

  He might get in any area. I need suction ASAP.

• 7:20Mike Boudet?

  Needing suction means there's too much blood and fluid. They're trying to clear out Jason's airway while someone else keeps compressing his chest. Then they get out their medical equipment. They hoist Jason onto a gurney and strip away his clothes. A monitor is attached, and he's moved into the ambulance. That's when the rescue effort shifts into an investigation. The officers move away from the mail truck and the bloodstained curb and begin to speak to neighbors who had actually seen what took place in real time. One of them had been standing at her mailbox just minutes earlier.

• 7:58Speaker 05

  I saw a guy, black hoodie, blue face mask. Pretty much right where that white, or that red sign is, walking towards, yeah. So walking towards here.

• 8:08Speaker 06

  Where were you standing?

• 8:10Speaker 05

  At the mailbox.

• 8:11Speaker 06

  So you're over there, and you see him standing on the other side of the sidewalk?

• 8:13Speaker 05

  Yes, yeah. Grabbed my mail from him, chatted for a minute or two, walked back, and honestly, as soon as I closed my door, I heard the gunshots and saw that guy take off.

• 8:23Speaker 06

  Okay, were you one of the 911 callers?

• 8:25Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 8:26Speaker 06

  Okay. When you got up to him, what did you see?

• 8:32Speaker 05

  Blood everywhere. He twitched a couple times.

• 8:38Speaker 05

  Other than that, nothing. We were on the phone with 911, me, and right across the street.

• 8:43Mike Boudet?

  The witnesses give the police what they can. They saw a man in a black hoodie coming right up on Jason and firing four or five consecutive bullets. That same man then ran from Heather Hill Circle down to Renaissance Drive and disappeared. Officers spread out throughout the neighborhood, but a description only tells police what to look for. They still don't know why anyone would walk up to a mail carrier in the middle of the day and shoot him on his route. They need to know more about Jason, starting with his employer. The detective approaches Jason's postal supervisor.

• 9:23Speaker 06

  So, anyone he's had a problem with?

• 9:27Speaker 05

  You know, I wouldn't go so far as to say he had a problem with them. We had a carrier, another one, Oliver, but I would think that they would come after me and not him. But he was the type that if he saw somebody do something wrong, he would speak up and say something. So I still wouldn't think that John is off his rocker that much.

• 9:54Speaker 06

  Did John have an issue with Jason?

• 9:57Speaker 05

  I don't think he had it. I know he knew Jason had wrote a statement on him.

• 10:00Speaker 06

  Do you remember what Jason wrote Jonathan up for?

• 10:04Speaker 05

  Um, slamming, what was the statement? I can give you a copy of it. But it was mainly, he had...

• 10:13Speaker 07

  Outbursts of anger in the parking lot.

• 10:16Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 10:16Speaker 07

  He was slamming mail, walking all over it, pushing cars into, he, he, he's on medication. And he went off of it.

• 10:24Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 10:25Mike Boudet?

  As far as the supervisor was concerned, Jason was a great guy and a hard worker. He even came in early, a lot, just to help out. He was a rule follower with a strong sense of justice, but some people didn't like that.

• 10:43Speaker 07

  He's the type that would help everybody.

• 10:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 10:45Speaker 07

  I mean, he has his ways, but hmm, we all got our ways. But I mean, far as, like I said, he, he's more meticulous. If he sees something happening wrong, he will be that one that will speak up.

• 10:55Speaker 06

  Jason will?

• 10:56Speaker 07

  Yeah. He will be that one that'll say, oh, this is BS. Y'all know y'all wrong.

• 11:01Mike Boudet?

  The fired employee gave detectives a plausible lead, but Jason's supervisor doubted that this guy would have blamed Jason personally.

• 11:09Speaker 07

  I just can't see nobody hurting him. But then I can't see that y'all got in this neighborhood. We have never had, really had things like this happening, so it has to be personal. Yeah.

• 11:21Mike Boudet?

  Personal. This word starts to shift the case. Until then, police are chasing what witnesses describe as a man running from Heather Hill Circle, wearing a hoodie and a face mask and heading in a particular direction. But now they were finding out personal details. Whoever shot him did it in broad daylight in front of witnesses. Jason was killed in front of neighborhood mailboxes on a route he drove every day at a time when someone could have known exactly where he would be. This killing wasn't about just any mail carrier. Someone wanted Jason dead.

• 12:02Mike Boudet?

  The circumstances suggested that someone may have been waiting for him, and Jason's life wasn't the only one taken.

• 12:22Mike Boudet?

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• 13:06Mike Boudet?

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• 13:36Speaker 03

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• 14:20Speaker 03

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• 14:44Mike Boudet?

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• 15:38Mike Boudet?

  Police and paramedics tried to save Jason on the street, but he never made it to the hospital. He was pronounced dead on the route. In the street, Jason's supervisor from the post office was already talking to investigators. She knew Jason's route and the people he worked with. And when the detective asked who might have had a problem with Jason, she gave a possibility. She said a former employee was fired after Jason spoke out about him. But even as she said it, that explanation didn't quite fit. If that person was angry enough to hurt someone, she thought he would come after management instead, not Jason.

• 16:19Mike Boudet?

  According to the supervisor, there was an even more likely situation involving tension and conflict surrounding Jason. It was a custody battle.

• 16:29Speaker 07

  And then as far as the custody, he told me he was going through something, but he's trying to work it out. But I don't know too much about her. Like I said, I don't think any of us know more about her. The only ones that's gonna know is, is the people that's close to him. Cause we do try to share things with each other, but have to have that fine line, unfortunately.

• 16:51Speaker 06

  Sure.

• 16:51Speaker 07

  So.

• 16:53Mike Boudet?

  Even when there's a fine line, rumors find a way in, and the supervisor remembered hearing about someone who was dating Jason's ex.

• 17:01Speaker 06

  Do you know anything about anyone else that she would have been dating, possibly?

• 17:05Speaker 07

  Now, Jessica mentioned that, and then again, like I said, we don't really have desirable people. And, and you know, cause you know, everybody's trying to just get people to hire. So I can't remember if it's her, I got a couple of carriers who's having issues with their significant other ex. So, but I do recall her saying that she got a boyfriend that threatened him.

• 17:30Speaker 06

  How long ago was that that you heard that?

• 17:35Speaker 07

  This had to been in August.

• 17:39Speaker 06

  August?

• 17:40Speaker 07

  I wanna say it was around August, because when I asked him, did he want to talk now, that's when I broke the rules. I was gonna say, is it something that we need to be aware of? Do I need to change your route? Do I need to change the setup? Do she know your route? What do you want me to do? And he said, he'll take care of it. But again.

• 17:58Speaker 06

  So he didn't really divulge anything to you? He just said, he'll handle it?

• 18:01Speaker 07

  He said, he'll handle it.

• 18:03Mike Boudet?

  At that point, detectives didn't know if this was a real threat or whether it had anything to do with what happened on Heather Hill Circle, but they had a name. So later that night, they went to talk to a guy named AJ.

• 18:16Speaker 07

  How are you? Good. Are you AJ? Yeah. AJ, my name's Inspector Chris Lucas. I'm a federal agent. Okay. United States Postal Inspection Services, Inspector Mole. Okay. Um, we've got a gentleman here with Love PD as well. Hold on, listen. My line. Okay.

• 18:35Speaker 07

  What's up? AJ, um, your last name's Richie, right? Right. Okay. Can we talk to you for a few minutes? Yeah. Is it possible for us to come in, or would you rather us talk to you outside? I mean, I'd rather you talk to me outside. Okay. She's gonna be present, she's an attorney.

• 18:50Mike Boudet?

  Weird how he suddenly has a lawyer there, right? Well, it was his wife. His wife was his lawyer.

• 18:57Speaker 07

  All right, we, we just wanna talk to you a little bit about a lady by the name of Devon. Okay. Schreiner. Do you know her? Yeah. How do you know her? She's a friend. She's a friend? Yeah. How well do you know her? Um, I've known her 13 years now. Okay. Ma'am, what's your name? I'm sorry. Oh, Elise. Bridget. Oh, Elise. Do you? Maybe one of them. Oh, I'm, I'm Mr. attorney. Yeah, I'm gonna be my attorney, that's all right.

• 19:26Speaker 06

  He holds a bar certification.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Speaker 07

  We're good. So, how do you know her? You said you've known her for about 13 years?

• 19:33Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we've been friends for 13 years. I mean, over the last year or so, it hasn't been a very good friendship.

• 19:39Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 19:39Speaker 06

  But that's how I know her.

• 19:41Speaker 07

  Okay. So what do you mean it hasn't been a good friendship over the last year?

• 19:45Speaker 06

  Um, she, she definitely made it pretty clear that she liked me more than I liked her.

• 19:52Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 19:53Speaker 06

  And I'm married, so.

• 19:57Speaker 06

  We kind of separated a bit. We still talk.

• 20:00Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 20:00Speaker 06

  Um, we talked today. I have a pretty good idea what this is about, because.

• 20:05Speaker 07

  When did you talk to her?

• 20:07Speaker 06

  Uh, apparently while she was driving to the police station.

• 20:10Mike Boudet?

  Devon Schreiner, Jason's ex, wanted him, he stated. But the fact was that he was married and they were only friends. That doesn't mean that their history wasn't always platonic. And the affair may not have been over. Devon's sister Rosa knew it too.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  When you say one of her men, was it one of her boyfriends or? Yeah, because she has two. Okay. I know, so you said she had two boyfriends. So she had this guy Joseph and then AJ, which is the guy AJ also mentioned. Okay.

• 20:46Mike Boudet?

  All right, so I have to take a step back here and explain who's who, because you might get lost in all the different names. The person you just heard is Rosa, Devon's sister. In the clip you heard, she's confirming that Devon considered a guy named AJ to be a boyfriend, even though he was married. Now, these two sisters had been estranged for several years before briefly living together again in 2021. At the heart of the dispute was the fact that Devon was a bit, um, promiscuous, dating two men at a time, both AJ and a guy named Joseph. And Devon wasn't the only one that was a little promiscuous.

• 21:32Mike Boudet?

  Rosa had become involved with one of her sister's boyfriends, Joseph. And Devon was pissed about it. She forced her to leave. So what did Rosa do? Well, I guess these two are related. So she moved in with her sister's ex, Jason, the victim. And their relationship quickly became serious. This is how Rosa knew who Devon was sleeping with and who she wasn't. She saw with her own eyes that AJ and her sister had something going on. Rosa recalled her sister making a threat, and it made her nervous.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  I don't remember what the threat was about. If you don't do this, AJ knows where you live and he has his guns.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  And he even told me, he was like, I was worried about that for a while, but now I don't, I'm not worried about it. AJ. Specifically AJ. He worries me the most, big time. And I don't know how often he comes around. When I lived with her, he was around quite often. Immediately thought of AJ.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Do you know AJ has, you're under the impression that AJ has had access to guns because of the comments that she made?

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:48Mike Boudet?

  The first person Rosa thought about was AJ. Her account contradicted AJ's description of the relationship, giving detectives another reason to question him. Rosa made them aware of yet another concern, her five-year-old nephew, the son of Devon and Jason.

• 23:07Speaker 05

  Hi, I was transferred to you. I was told that I needed to speak with you. Um, I'm not really sure about, but um, I've been getting a lot of calls uh, from uh, past coworkers and people that I know saying that there may have been an accident with my son's father.

• 23:27Mike Boudet?

  Devon brought up the calls she had received from former colleagues, since she had also worked at the post office.

• 23:34Speaker 07

  Um, what's your name?

• 23:35Speaker 05

  Devon Schreiner.

• 23:37Speaker 07

  Okay. Yeah, there's, uh, there's been an incident and so we're trying to figure out what's going on. Um, just, I have no idea what it is, if it's a random event or, um, but yeah, I'd like to talk to you about this. Um, are you available to come in and, over here, we can talk?

• 23:57Speaker 05

  Can you, can you tell me what's happening? Because everybody just keeps saying there's an accident and my son is supposed to be with him right now. And he is five years old.

• 24:06Speaker 07

  Yeah, we have this, Chase is here.

• 24:09Speaker 05

  You have my son?

• 24:10Speaker 07

  Yep.

• 24:11Speaker 05

  I'm sorry?

• 24:12Speaker 07

  Chase is here, he's fine. Uh, Rosa came to pick him up, um, because of what's going on and.

• 24:19Speaker 05

  Okay, so I don't, why, I don't understand why nobody called me.

• 24:24Speaker 07

  Um, we were actually trying to.

• 24:25Speaker 05

  I am his mother and nobody called me.

• 24:27Speaker 07

  Yeah, we're trying to find your contact information.

• 24:30Speaker 05

  My contact information should be anywhere that my son's father is. We are, I understand that we're not together, but I'm, I'm his mother and I should have been contacted immediately.

• 24:43Mike Boudet?

  She had a right to be upset because Jason was the father of her kid, and he had obviously been in some sort of accident or something. Instead of letting her know, the police had let her sister, who was living with him, get her son and bring him to the police station.

• 24:59Speaker 07

  I want to find out who was in charge of that and ask them what's going on with that. But yeah, um.

• 25:04Speaker 05

  Well, Rosa, Rosa is not his guardian. She does, she should not be having custody of him right now.

• 25:10Speaker 07

  We're not saying that she's having custody or anything like that. Uh, we just want Chase out of there. Um, you know.

• 25:17Speaker 05

  Okay, but the, you, so was, was my son picked up from daycare?

• 25:23Speaker 07

  Uh, yes.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  Okay, the daycare has my contact information. He should not have been removed from the school until I was contacted.

• 25:33Speaker 07

  Well, let's figure out what's going on. Um, and I'm.

• 25:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, I would love to, but what is happening? Where is my son's father?

• 25:39Speaker 07

  Well, that's what we need to talk about and, and uh, talk about this in depth. Are you able to come down to the police department? And in the meantime, I'll find out who was out on scene.

• 25:49Speaker 05

  Oh, I mean, you have my son, yes, of course I'm coming down there. I, I am in Fort Collins, so I am, I am a little, a little bit away. It'll take me a little bit of time to get there. Okay, well, does she need, does she need to be? I, she's my sister and, um, there is, there is a lot of, um, family issues with me and her going on that I don't want her, I don't want her with him. She's not his guardian.

• 26:19Speaker 07

  Okay, all right. We won't let her leave with, with Chase. So come on in and, uh, um, we'll get it all straightened out.

• 26:28Mike Boudet?

  On the phone, Devon sounded like someone trying to get information from the outside. But she was Jason's ex. She was the mother of his son, and she needed to know what was happening. But by the time detectives talked to Rosa, they heard something a lot more complicated. They heard about the tangled and complex love lives of sisters Devon and Rosa. These two got around, I'll tell you. While Rosa was living with Devon, she slept with Devon's boyfriend, Joseph. Rosa told detectives that she went to Joseph's apartment late one night to help him calm down after an argument with Devon.

• 27:11Mike Boudet?

  And then, as she put it, she fell asleep. In fact, her exact words were, "It was late. I fell asleep, woke up in his bed, and you can imagine what happened."

• 27:26Mike Boudet?

  So yeah, there was tension between these two very promiscuous sisters.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, they, they were kind of having an argument.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, then there was, I went over to his apartment to kind of help him anyways. And then there was. And you helped Joseph? Yeah, just like talking wise, make sure he was okay with what was going on anyways. And then. Do you remember when they were arguing over, when they saw him pretty big? They were arguing over her other man. I know, so you said she had two boyfriends. So she had this guy Joseph and then? AJ, which is the guy AJ also mentioned. Okay.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  So they were arguing over that and then, um, you ended up going over and, and talking to Joseph? How did your sister respond to that?

• 28:23Speaker 01

  Well, she didn't know that situation. Because, of course, there was a little bit of a history. Anyways, and I ended up telling her.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  And she was very, very upset. She threatened to kill herself.

• 28:44Mike Boudet?

  It's hard to make out some of what Rosa is saying. She had been crying and she was talking quietly. But overall, she was trying to explain a messy family history that was already in place before Jason was ever part of it. Rosa said she didn't even really consider Devon to be her sister. That's how bad it was. Devon had been out of her life for years. And when they reconnected, their relationship didn't just repair itself. It got worse, much worse. For a while, Rosa lived with Devon until she crossed the line and slept with her man, Joseph. Well, one of her men, I should say. Rosa denied having an ongoing relationship with him.

• 29:26Mike Boudet?

  But after she told Devon what happened, she said Devon wanted her gone. Understandably. By late June, Rosa was no longer living with Devon. She'd been kicked out. And after staying at several places, she was invited to move in with her sister's ex, Jason. And almost immediately, Rosa and Jason became a couple. Rosa was also helping care for Jason and Devon's little boy when Jason had custody of him. The relationship between the two sisters had deteriorated so much that Rosa wasn't even sure she trusted Devon as a mother.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  He can't. I'm telling you right now, he cannot be with her.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  He can't.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  What do you think would happen?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  He thought you can, I mean, like, he would come back with us the days Jason picked him up with bruises on him. And Jason would text her and say, hey, where are these bruises from? Never told. She would never tell him.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Did she? And, sorry, and it worries me with her men there. The little, specifically AJ.

• 30:40Mike Boudet?

  Rosa described her own sister as a failing parent. But that wasn't all she had to say about her.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  Because she's a horrible person. She's a horrible person. I know the fact that he, like I said, that he's with me, that made her mad at it.

• 30:58Mike Boudet?

  Detectives weren't sure which relationship was more bitter. The one between Jason and Devon or Rosa and Devon. Jason, on the other hand, was no longer alive to talk about it. But there was a lot more to this story. And it all pointed back to the post office. Devon had once worked for the postal service herself. The same one Jason worked for in Longmont. But that didn't last long, and she was moved to a different location as a sub.

• 31:31Speaker 06

  So they had a child together. She worked for the post office for less than two weeks.

• 31:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 06

  How were you aware of their issues as far as their custody issues? What were the problems that you knew that they were having?

• 31:44Speaker 03

  Well, one of my clerks came to me and told me that she was in a building, looking in his case, looking around his case. That's when I had all the...

• 31:52Speaker 06

  At work?

• 31:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 06

  Looking around his case?

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, she was just looking around. So I had all of the codes changed. She was given a different code, and I took it out. So how she got in the building, either they let the door open, because carriers do do that, or he shared his code with her and...

• 32:10Speaker 06

  Had she already been let go at that point?

• 32:11Speaker 03

  She was already gone.

• 32:13Mike Boudet?

  So Devon was assigned a new location, but she showed up again, rifling through Jason's things. Somehow, she got a code that wasn't hers and let herself in. The postal supervisor wasn't happy about this, but then again, she maintained that this particular office had different standards than what she was used to. Sounds like a management problem or lack thereof.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  Where I'm from, we actually really didn't hire the significant other in that particular office. We hired you for the same company, but because we tried to avoid situations like this, you couldn't work in the same office. When I got out here, I got mom, a sister, daddy, cousin, uncle, and aunts working in the same office. And when they blow up, they blow up.

• 33:02Speaker 03

  I didn't even know that that was his girlfriend. Honestly, I would have thought that maybe he had better taste too, but apparently not.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  I thought she was a little bit strange and all, so the job wasn't right for her. Her, that and the fact that she was constantly... She was just strange and odd.

• 33:25Mike Boudet?

  Devon may have seemed awed to the postal supervisor, and Rosa may have questioned her as a mother. But there were two sides to this story. And from Devon's side, the last few months had been humiliating. She had left one postal job and started delivering mail somewhere else. She was fighting Jason over custody, and her sister was part of the custody battle since she was living with her ex and assuming the role of stepmom to her kid. Then, when Jason had an accident and their son needed to be picked up from daycare, the call went to Rosa, not the mom, Devon.

• 34:05Mike Boudet?

  At this point, she was confused and angry, trying to take control of the situation.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I need him, I need him to be here now. I saw my father's car outside, and I'm not really sure why he's here. Your father's car? Yeah. Who's your dad? His name is Raoul. Raoul? Yeah. Okay. Is he not allowed to see your kiddo? He's a registered sex offender, so he better not be around my kid. I'm not sure who's where, but he's safe right now. Who is he with? He's gonna be with an officer right now, so... Okay, because the previous officer that I spoke to on the phone said that he was with my sister, and she doesn't have custody of him either, because she's not his guardian. Okay. So I need to know where my kid is, and I need to know what's happening, because nobody's telling me anything.

• 34:51Mike Boudet?

  Nobody was telling her anything because anyone connected to Jason was a potential suspect.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  Okay. We definitely know your son is safe. You know he's safe? I don't know he's safe. Nobody called me. I live in Fort Collins. Like, I work in Loveland, I live in Fort Collins, and nobody called me. I had coworkers I haven't spoken, well, past coworkers, I guess, that I haven't spoken to in years, telling me that my father, my son's father was in an accident. This is the police party. He is here. Okay, well, why is he not here with me? I need him to be here with me. I haven't seen him, and I don't know what's happened. He was taken from his school without my knowledge or consent. And I don't, I don't know what's happened to his father.

• 35:35Speaker 07

  Good Devon?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:36Speaker 07

  Am I pronouncing it right?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:38Speaker 07

  I'm Steve, you can call me Steve. We gotta kind of step back here a little bit. I gotta tell you some bad news. Your ex-boyfriend, is it? Ex-husband?

• 35:50Speaker 01

  I just call him my son's dad.

• 35:51Speaker 07

  Son's dad?

• 35:52Speaker 01

  We are never married, but...

• 35:54Speaker 07

  He died today.

• 35:58Mike Boudet?

  Devon sighs as she puts her head down and runs her fingers through her long hair.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  What? How? What happened?

• 36:05Speaker 07

  Some shot in the face.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  In the face? Where?

• 36:11Speaker 07

  On his postal route.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  He was working today? He doesn't...

• 36:17Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, he was working, and someone came up and shot him.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  When did this happen?

• 36:28Speaker 07

  The 12:32 today.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  It is 6 o'clock.

• 36:35Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 36:38Speaker 07

  So it's kind of a long story.

• 36:41Mike Boudet?

  Devon is focused on the time of day, implying she's been left out of the loop. The detective is about to pull her into the loop, starting with her rights. After all, no one has been ruled out yet, least of all Devon, who is connected to AJ and AJ, who has allegedly threatened Jason in the past.

• 37:02Speaker 07

  So I'm really kind of concerned. I know that you got served just the other day with the child custody. And you're a little upset about that. But AJ, you told Devon in the past that AJ knows where you live and that they'll shoot you if you need to.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  I've told who?

• 37:19Speaker 07

  You told that to Devon, and Devon told that to your sister. Yeah. Well, he heard, Jason heard that from you, and then Jason told Rose that, and Rose told us that. That's happened about a year ago.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  That...

• 37:33Speaker 07

  That AJ knows where you live, Jason, and AJ will shoot you, Jason.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  I...

• 37:39Speaker 07

  You said that.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  The "I" said that? I've never said that.

• 37:42Speaker 07

  Why is your car at the crime scene area? Why are you in that area in your car? Why are you turning off your scanner?

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I didn't turn off my scanner.

• 37:50Speaker 07

  You did.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  No, I did not...

• 37:52Speaker 07

  The postal inspectors are here.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Turn off my scanner.

• 37:54Speaker 07

  You, or you didn't, you didn't go with the scanner. The scanner's at your boyfriend's house or somewhere in that area, in front of it or in a bush somewhere in that area. It wasn't with you, okay? They have a breadcrumb trail and GPS on your scanner. And the postal inspectors are here, and they said, before the homicide, you're not doing anything with the scanner. It's stationary for like three hours or more. And it should be mobile because you're working, but if that's your boyfriend's house, and why is your car in the crime scene area?

• 38:27Speaker 01

  I don't...

• 38:28Speaker 07

  You've got video of your car in the crime scene area.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I don't know why it would be on camera that I, my car was down there, but I don't, if I don't scan...

• 38:41Speaker 07

  Packages?

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Packages, then obviously I'm not doing that. But I, I did stop and, right, I did stop at his house for my lunch break, sort of.

• 38:55Mike Boudet?

  Three hours is sort of a long lunch break, if you can afford it.

• 38:58Speaker 07

  So I'm asking you, did you have AJ do something? Do you think AJ was involved in something like this?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:04Speaker 07

  Castigated, or if not, maybe it looks like it's you?

• 39:07Speaker 01

  Castigated? I don't...

• 39:10Speaker 07

  Your other boyfriend?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  I...

• 39:12Speaker 07

  Castigated?

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Well, I know who that is. I just don't understand how he's...

• 39:16Speaker 07

  I don't know. One of your boyfriends. One of your associates. Someone killed your ex.

• 39:25Speaker 07

  And we want to find out who it is. It seems like you're involved. Your car is there.

• 39:31Mike Boudet?

  The detective is doing one of the toughest jobs of his life right now. A job I had to do. Sorting out the men in Devon's life. You might have to draw a diagram after this episode because it does get a little complex, the way these two women are just, you know, going at it with all these different men. Well, actually, all the same men. Anyway, there is Joseph Castaneda, her current boyfriend. And then there's AJ. I don't know what AJ stands for, sorry. But he's the married guy that Rosa had already named as one of Devon's men. The guy who threatened the victim. And Devon's problem isn't just that she knows AJ. It's that her car was seen near the scene.

• 40:17Mike Boudet?

  And her postal scanner, the device that should be moving along with her as she delivers mail, has been stationary at AJ's house. Her route stops, her scanner sits near AJ, and Jason is shot while she's at lunch. But Devon doesn't seem threatened. She goes back to the one thing she keeps demanding. Her son.

• 40:42Speaker 07

  I'd like to exonerate you if you didn't have anything to do with this and get you out of this, please, please.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yes, because I would like to see my son.

• 40:48Speaker 07

  I don't think you want to hang out with me. And I think you want to see your son. And I want to check off all the boxes. So here's what's going on. We went out to the school and we said, we don't want anyone picking up the child until we figure out who's who and who's safe, who we can release the child to. If the ex, if the ex-husband shows up at the school and the wife's dead, I'm not going to release the kid to the ex-husband who just killed the mother. You know, that's going to put the kid in harm's way. So that's just standard police 101 business.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  But nobody called me.

• 41:26Mike Boudet?

  Devon just isn't understanding what the detective is trying to say. So he tries a little harder to explain it to her. Kind of like a game of Clue.

• 41:36Speaker 07

  We need to figure out what's going on and how your husband, how your baby's father died. So we're not going to let the son go just yet.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Well, he doesn't need to go, but if he can be, can I at least see him first?

• 41:49Speaker 07

  Right now, no.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Why?

• 41:50Speaker 07

  Right now, no. We've got to figure out if the butler killed your baby daddy's son, or if you killed baby daddy's son, or if a hooky killed him, or if it's a random person killed you.

• 42:03Speaker 07

  I don't know who killed them. And I don't want to turn over the ex to the baby until I know that everything's legit and that you're calm and that you're rational and you're not a crazy person because I've never met you before.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  I'm not calm. My son was taken. Nobody told me that anything happened. My son was taken from school by either police and I was not informed, or by somebody who is not legally allowed to pick him up from school.

• 42:33Mike Boudet?

  A parent focusing on locating a five-year-old under those circumstances is not inherently incriminating. But she never mentions her son's loss or the death of his father, as if she's already processed it.

• 42:48Speaker 07

  Your son's dad died today. And so please take a look at the butler or the ex, or somebody who owes him a lot of money. Someone needs to ask me some questions about your diligence. I don't think he has a butler. So we've got to rule the butler out.

• 43:04Mike Boudet?

  He's definitely ruling out the imaginary butler, but he's not done pointing the finger at AJ and Devon. It's just not going to be in the library with a candlestick.

• 43:15Speaker 07

  Devon, I think you're a good person, but something's not right here. I think the kid is out. There's something weird going on here. Everything is pointing to you being involved in this shooting. People don't go around shooting postal people.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  I mean, I work for the post office and I have before and I have been...

• 43:37Speaker 07

  Supposedly you're on video two weeks ago breaking into the Longmont Post Office? That's a separate...

• 43:42Speaker 01

  I didn't break in. I work for the post office. I'm allowed to go in.

• 43:47Speaker 07

  But who cares about that? That's just a stupid burglary.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Burglary?

• 43:51Speaker 07

  Yeah. Let's talk about the homicide.

• 43:54Mike Boudet?

  So let's talk about the homicide. Before the detectives said it out loud, they had already laid out the pieces. A Nissan Rogue with a missing front hubcap near the crime scene. Devon's Nissan, I might add. Postal scanners record more than delivered packages. They also record location. Devon's scanner should have moved with her on her route. Instead, it remained near AJ's home for roughly three hours. Devon said she was there for lunch, sort of. AJ had already been named in a threat against Jason, and he had guns.

• 44:33Mike Boudet?

  So a car, a scanner, a three-hour lunch, a married boyfriend with a gun. Then the detective presented the next clue.

• 44:44Speaker 07

  Why, why are you, what's your involvement in this? Because I think there's a lot more than you're telling us. The video of the shooter looks kind of like you. It's from a distance, but it looks like your height and your build. It doesn't look like AJ's height and build. Doesn't look like Castaneda's height and build. Looks like your build with a black hoodie.

• 45:03Mike Boudet?

  Eyewitnesses had described a man running from the scene in a mask and a black hoodie. But they had obviously missed something. There wasn't a man in that hoodie. It was Devon. The detective wasn't guessing either. He already knew it was her. How could they be so sure it was Devon, you might ask? Well, the answer is simple. They were sure because they had seized AJ's phone and found a screenshot of Devon in the exact same outfit, taking a bathroom selfie, of all things. What a dumbass.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  There is nothing being hidden. There's something else.

• 45:45Speaker 06

  Okay. So if we don't talk about your car, do you want to continue this conversation? Or are you done with the conversation?

• 45:51Speaker 01

  There really isn't else to say. I've said my day. I've said what I needed to say. I don't see what other questions you would have.

• 45:59Speaker 06

  Well, I'd like to know, who do you think would have done this to Jason?

• 46:02Speaker 01

  I don't know who would have done this to Jason. I don't know his life anymore. I am no longer a part of it.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  He made that perfectly clear when he decided to, for lack of better words, sleep with my sister.

• 46:17Speaker 06

  Can I talk to you about that? Or do you want an attorney?

• 46:21Speaker 01

  There's nothing to hide with that either, so I will answer some questions about that.

• 46:25Speaker 06

  Okay. You're okay answering questions about your sister?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:29Speaker 06

  Are they dating?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  They are living together.

• 46:31Speaker 06

  Or they're sleeping together?

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Definitely sleeping together in front of my son, which is how I found out. From a five-year-old.

• 46:38Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 46:40Speaker 06

  How old's your sister? Is she of age?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  She's nineteen. She just turned nineteen.

• 46:45Speaker 06

  How old are you?

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Twenty-six. She had been living with me at the beginning of this year until the end of June.

• 46:54Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  And then I found out that she not only slept with my ex-boyfriend, but also with my son's dad. And I kicked her out and I told her she was no longer allowed to live in my house if she was going to be that kind of person.

• 47:09Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 47:10Mike Boudet?

  Even then, Devon didn't confess. She wasn't budging. She didn't say she shot Jason. She didn't confirm the selfie was real or that the hoodie was even hers, or that the person the witness saw running from the mailbox was her. She stayed where she had been from the very beginning, in an angry, confused, and even slighted state, careening her way out of responsibility, as she'd always done before. Her statements gave detectives a possible motive. Resentment over the custody fight and Jason's relationship with her sister. Only one thing hovered in the air when they led Devon away in handcuffs was her married

• 47:54Mike Boudet?

  boyfriend AJ. Complicit.

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• 49:28Speaker 03

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• 50:12Speaker 03

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• 50:34Mike Boudet?

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• 51:18Mike Boudet?

  Start your journey to a new language today. By that evening, detectives were pretty sure that the evidence pointed to Devon as the shooter. Her car had been recorded near the scene. Her postal scanner had remained stationary at AJ's home for hours. Investigators had recovered an incriminating selfie from AJ's phone, and Devon had openly expressed resentment towards Jason and her sister, Rosa. But Devon never admitted to shooting him. That evening, Devon Schreiner was arrested for first-degree murder.

• 52:03Mike Boudet?

  But she wouldn't be alone.

• 52:05Speaker 05

  Jim Longmont Police have arrested a man they say was complicit in the murder that happened here just last week. And according to police documents, they revealed that man's followed Jason on the morning of his mail route. 34-year-old Andrew Ritchie was taken into custody last night on charges for complicity to commit first-degree murder. Police say he was in a relationship with Devon Schreiner, who's charged for shooting Jason, her ex-boyfriend and child's father. In Andrew's 23-page arrest affidavit, he told police Devon had talked about killing Jason. Andrew admitted he followed Jason last Wednesday morning to see if Devon would show up. He told officers he even had a 15-second conversation with Jason, telling him he was

• 52:49Speaker 05

  pushing Devon over the line regarding child custody. Andrew says Jason told him he wasn't afraid of her.

• 52:56Mike Boudet?

  Okay, I looked it up. Andrew Ritchie was his name. That's AJ. Andrew Ritchie. I don't know what the J's for still. But AJ was also arrested and charged with complicity to commit murder. AJ, or Andrew's, account shifted responsibility towards Devon, of course. And this information made its way into a jail phone call between Devon and her other boyfriend, Joseph.

• 53:28Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Hi, dear. Are you okay? What's wrong?

• 53:32Speaker 03

  There's more news today.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  What happened?

• 53:36Speaker 03

  AJ telling them everything, as well as they found a picture of you in the outfit.

• 53:45Mike Boudet?

  The picture is important because Devon's defense attorney would later argue that she was coerced by AJ. But that's pretty, you know, hard to believe, considering she took a selfie in the same outfit the killer wore. I mean, what kind of a fucking dumbass takes selfies of themselves before committing a crime? It takes a real piece-of-shit narcissist. And I think that's what we got here.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  What did he say?

• 54:14Speaker 03

  That he tried to talk you down. And this had been going on for a while, and he tried to warn Jason.

• 54:24Mike Boudet?

  But that's also hard to believe, given what AJ and Devon allegedly said next.

• 54:30Speaker 03

  Well, he said the picture of you in the same outfit that happened that day. He's also stating that he said, "Today's the day, and you have everything you need on the day when he dropped you off to work." He's being held for complicity.

• 54:47Mike Boudet?

  During most of the phone call, Devon's boyfriend, Joseph, was torn up about being separated from Devon. I guess he really missed that sweet, community puss. Meanwhile, she did a whole lot of apologizing to him.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Sorry, you're not okay.

• 55:03Speaker 03

  I just wish I could have seen you good.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  I know, I wish I could see you too. I'm sorry. I wish I knew what to say to make it better. Sorry.

• 55:13Speaker 03

  I wish I could make your situation better. It's getting worse.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  It's not your job to make this better, though.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  There's a lot stacked against you.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  I'm sure there is.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  I can't abandon you.

• 55:29Mike Boudet?

  While Joseph refused to abandon her, AJ had completely turned his back. He said he tried to talk Devon out of it. He even tried to warn Jason. But the facts remain that Devon killed Jason, and AJ knew she was going to. The jury rejected their defenses and found both defendants guilty. They were later sentenced to life in prison without parole.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  And keeping him in his house would be one of the best possibilities. And it is up by my dad, and it is up by my sister, even though they shouldn't have custody and they shouldn't take care of him. You aren't opposed to them seeing him because they are his family and his friends are here and his friends are...

• 56:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  You know, he has the neighbors, the friends of his that are neighbors when we lived at the house. He has his friends from school. He has Jocelyn. He has all of those friends. And taking him away from everything on top of not seeing his parents would not be good for him.

• 56:52Mike Boudet?

  The custody battle continued, of course. This time, Jason's parents were the ones fighting for custody of their grandson. Devon had a different idea. She felt her son should stay where he was, and Joseph should raise him. Either way, the kid had lost both parents, which, you know, isn't great. Jason had moved on in a way Devon deeply resented. She really liked puppeting these men around, I guess. But Jason was now with her younger sister. He was seeking more time with his son, and prosecutors argued that the custody fight

• 57:34Mike Boudet?

  and his relationship with Rosa had become part of Devon's motive to kill him. She shot Jason in the middle of an ordinary neighborhood on an ordinary day while people stood outside collecting their mail. It's crazy that she chose to kill him instead of her sister, which she seemed to resent even more, and probably not for an unjustified reason. During her first interview, Devon repeatedly asked why she could not see her son. By the end of the case, her own actions had provided the lasting answer. Jason was dead. Devon was going to prison.

• 58:18Mike Boudet?

  Their five-year-old son had lost both of his biological parents. For the rest of her life, Devon would be separated from the person she insisted mattered most, her little boy. In the end, it just goes to show how some of these sayings we've heard all of our lives are true and exist for a reason. I'm reminded of the one saying, "All is fair in love and war." And although it's probably a very true statement in a lot of ways, there should probably be a footnote that instructs dummies like these two sisters to keep your family out of it.

• 59:17Mike Boudet?

  We hope you've enjoyed yet another episode of Sword and Scale. It's been 13 years, can you believe that? Been doing this for a very long time. It's sort of become part of me. And that's unfortunate because it's very dark, dark, dark, disturbing stuff.

• 59:39Mike Boudet?

  Usually I tell you to go buy something, but not today, not today. Go be with your family, tell them you love them, give them a hug, stay safe.

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