#187: Jocko Willink on Discipline, Leadership, and Overcoming Doubt

"Don't count on motivation; count on discipline." - Jocko Willink Jocko Willink (@jockowillink https://twitter.com/jockowillink) is one of the scariest human beings imaginable. He is a lean 230 pounds. He is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu expert who used to tap out 20 Navy SEALs per workout. He is a legend in the Special Operations world. His eyes look through you more than at you. Jocko spent 20 years in the US Navy and commanded SEAL Team 3's task unit Bruiser, the most highly decorated special operations unit in the Iraq War. Upon returning to the US, Jocko served as the officer in charge of training for all West Coast SEAL teams, designing and implementing some of the most challenging and realistic -- and perhaps psychotic -- combat training in the world (his words, not mine). After retiring from the Navy, he co-founded Echelon Front http://www.echelonfront.com/, a leadership and management consulting company and authored the number one New York Times bestseller Extreme Ownership: How US Navy SEALs Lead and Win http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00VE4Y0Z2/theartofchapo-20. Jocko did his first interview ever with me (find it here http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/09/25/jocko-willink/), and it took the Internet by storm. Now he joins us for round two to answer the questions you've been asking. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did! Show notes and links for this episode can be found at www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. This episode is brought to you by Headspace https://www.headspace.com/tim, the world's most popular meditation app (with more than 4,000,000 users). It's used in more than 150 countries, and many of my closest friends swear by it. Try Headspace's free Take10 program https://www.headspace.com/tim-- 10 minutes of guided meditation a day for 10 days. It's like a warm bath for your mind. Meditation doesn't need to be complicated or expensive, and it's had a huge impact on my life. Try Headspace for free https://www.headspace.com/tim for a few days and see what I mean. This podcast is also brought to you by Wealthfront https://wealthfront.com/tim. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive (in a good way) set-it-and-forget-it investing service led by technologists from places like Apple. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years and now has more than $2.5B under management. Why? Because you can get services previously limited to the ultra-wealthy and only pay pennies on the dollar for them, and it's all through smarter software instead of retail locations and bloated sales teams. Check out wealthfront.com/tim http://wealthfront.com/tim, take their risk assessment quiz, which only takes 2-5 minutes, and they'll show you -- for free -- exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. If you want to just take their advice and do it yourself, you can. Well worth a few minutes to explore: wealthfront.com/tim http://wealthfront.com/tim.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Tim Ferriss?

  No, would it seem inappropriate?

• 0:12Speaker 01

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Headspace. More than 80% of the people I have interviewed, world-class performers across the military, entertainment, sports, and beyond, all have some type of meditative practice. I tried for years and years and failed miserably. The key is making it simple, and you can dramatically improve your life in just 10 minutes a day, and technology can help you. This change comes through guided meditation, and Headspace is by far the most popular app for this purpose. More than 4 million users, it's meditation made simple. So what I recommend is that you take this practice, meditation, which is rooted in thousands of years of tradition, supported by thousands of scientific studies, and try

• 1:07Tim Ferriss?

  it for 10 minutes a day for 10 days. That's all you need to do. You could also check out the founder, Andy Puddicombe's TED Talk, which has more than 5.5 million views. His last name is P U D D I C O M B E, if you want to look that up. But otherwise, download the free Headspace app, I have it on my phone, and begin their Take 10 program. For 10 days of guided meditation, completely free, 10 minutes a day, that's all it takes. You should give it a shot. Headspace.com/Tim. Just go to Headspace.com/Tim.

• 1:43Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set-it-and-forget-it investing service, led by technologists from places like Apple and world-famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years, and they now have more than $2.5 billion under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley, have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is... Why? Why is it so popular? Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy, but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, et cetera. And I'll come back to that in a second.

• 2:25Tim Ferriss?

  I suggest you check out wealthfront.com/tim. Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. And here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis, but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint. And little things that you may or may not be familiar with, like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than 10 asset classes, and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time. Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, et cetera,

• 3:10Tim Ferriss?

  can offer all of this at low costs that were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees. For everything, they charge 0.25% per year on assets above the first $15,000, which is managed for free if you use my link, wealthfront.com/tim. That is less than $5 a month to invest a $30,000 account, for instance. Now, normally, when I have a sponsor on this show, it's because I use them and recommend them. In this case, it's a little different. I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast, but because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials. So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront

• 3:55Tim Ferriss?

  that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now, back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com/tim. It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of.

• 4:25Tim Ferriss?

  Greetings, Earthlings. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is always, or I should say usually, my job to deconstruct world-class performers, to tease out the habits, routines, tools, favorite practices, workouts, books, whatever it might be, that they use that you can test, that you can experiment with in your own life. And this episode is going to be a round two, highly anticipated, with none other than Jaco Willink. And Jaco did his first interview with me, which was the first interview he ever did, and it took the internet by storm. Jocko

• 5:04Tim Ferriss?

  Willink, @JacoWillink on Twitter, JacoPodcast.com, is one of the scariest human beings imaginable, lean 230 pounds, black belt Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, used to tap out 20 Navy SEALs per workout. He is an intimidating and very intelligent person. I've spent more time with him, and the more time that I spend with him, the more impressive he is to me. He spent 20 years in the US Navy and commanded SEAL Team 3's Task Unit Bruiser, the most highly decorated special operations unit from the Iraq War. Upon returning to the US, Jocko served as the officer in charge of training for all West Coast SEAL teams, designing and implementing

• 5:43Tim Ferriss?

  some of the most challenging and realistic, and perhaps psychotic, combat training in the world. His words, not mine. After retiring from the Navy, he co-founded Echelon Front, I think I'm getting the pronunciation right, a leadership and management consulting company, and authored the number one New York Times bestseller, which was introduced in a way on my podcast, Extreme Ownership, which many of you have read. He now discusses war, leadership, business, Jiu-Jitsu, life, you name it. In his top-rated podcast, also does some really, really good book reviews or commentary on things that are dark in some cases, like the My Lai massacre. Jocko Podcast, check it out. And without further ado, we are going

• 6:28Tim Ferriss?

  to tackle, or I should say Jocko is going to tackle, your most common, most burning questions, and he doesn't dodge. So, I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Jocko Willink.

• 6:43Jocko Willink?

  Hey, thanks, Tim. Thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. And thanks to everybody that submitted questions. I'm gonna try and get to as many as I can here. Alright, the first one is from a guy by the name of Jeffrey McLeod. And the question is, how do you shut internal doubt down and negative chatter out of your head during critical must-do moments? How do you change emotional negative focus states when something or someone knocks you off focus?

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  First of all, internal doubt is not necessarily a bad thing. And I've said this before about fear of failure. Because internal doubt, that first of all, that's a form of humility. And obviously humility is a good thing. And that internal doubt and that fear of failure is the thing that, the thing that keeps you up at night preparing. That's the thing that's not gonna let you cut corners. It's the thing, it's that little voice, that little voice inside your head that's whispering, rehearse again, practice again, do it again, over

• 8:06Jocko Willink?

  and over again. And that's the voice that says to do everything you can to be ready. So I'm, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that little internal doubt. But this doesn't mean that you lack confidence. I mean, as a matter of fact, when you, when you prepare correctly, when you have the discipline to prepare correctly, then you will have confidence. And that is definitely a, a good feeling to have because

• 8:44Jocko Willink?

  The, all that negative chatter that you're talking about here, here's the deal with that. Every repetition of practice that you do, every iteration of rehearsal that you complete, every bit of study that you do and every drill that you do, all that, all that preparation is gonna drown out the, the negative chatter. So, you gotta prepare. Now, then we get to this piece here. It was, how do you change emotional negative focus states when something or someone knocks you off focus? Well, I think this is where it's important to have that ability to detach.

• 9:28Jocko Willink?

  And it isn't like you're gonna completely detach and not feel those things at all. Not like you're gonna make those emotions disappear. And it's not even like you'd want them to disappear completely because those things are normal. But what you have to do when you detach is it's going to allow you to, to see those emotions or that negative focus and see it from a distance and then understand that they are there and then make sure that they don't overwhelm you.

• 10:01Jocko Willink?

  And so, like, like in your head, you're gonna be saying, oh, okay, I see that. That's, that's some nervousness sneaking up on me. Got it. That's a good sign because that means my mind is focused and I'm in the game. Okay. What's next? Oh, oh, oh, got some, some negative thoughts? Okay. Well, those are normal and I gotta know that things are gonna go bad and that's fine. How bad can they go? What's a worst case scenario?

• 10:30Jocko Willink?

  Worst case scenario is not that big of a deal. I know I can handle the worst case scenario if it happens. So what else? What else is in my mind? What else negative thought am I having? What about those things that you can't control? The things that you can't control and you're worried about those things. Well, you know what? I can't control them.

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  So if I can't control them, why worry about them? Because the energy that you put into worrying about them actually costs you your effectiveness. It's going to cut into the energy you should be putting towards achieving what you're trying to achieve. So, focus on the things that you can control and make the things that you can control 100%. And, and the bottom line with all this, with these negative thoughts, if, if I give everything I can, if I prepare as hard as I can, if I practice as much as I can, if I do have a rehearsal and I do everything I can and I still come up short,

• 11:33Jocko Willink?

  good. I'm going to learn from it. I'm going to get better. So, that's what I'm going to do with internal doubt. I'm okay with it. Negative chatter. I'm going to utilize it. And I'm just going to detach a little bit

• 11:52Jocko Willink?

  to make sure I don't get drowned out in these emotional situations. So just get your head in the game and get after it.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  Done. Okay. Next question. Next question comes from Will.

• 12:11Jocko Willink?

  Will Gendron.

• 12:14Jocko Willink?

  And he says, how does his love of

• 12:23Jocko Willink?

  love and study of literature influence his leadership skills? What were some of the best books for developing his knowledge of leadership? Okay, so the thing that I look for when I'm reading and when I'm reading, that includes everything. And let's just talk about everything here. Books, history, books, literature, even poetry and even like song lyrics, everything.

• 12:45Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to learn about human nature. That's what I'm looking for. And of course, since since combat is like life amplified and intensified, which is something we say all the time. A lot of times, the books that are about war give some of the best insight into human nature.

• 13:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, you're talking about the stress and the fear and the courage and the breaking points. And the darkness of humanity. And also

• 13:26Jocko Willink?

  the beauty of humanity. And all those can be seen in their most extreme and in their most obvious form in war.

• 13:38Jocko Willink?

  And so a lot of books that I do read are about war and I have a ton of them. And again, they're not so much leadership books by definition. As a matter of fact, I don't even know if I have any quote unquote leadership books. But I got a ton of books that have taught me a ton about leadership. And first and foremost, and I said this on when I was on Tim's podcast for the first time, About Face by Colonel David Hackworth, it's

• 14:08Jocko Willink?

  it's the only book I've ever actually given to anyone.

• 14:13Jocko Willink?

  And it's a big book and people, people that have bought it, people on Twitter that have gone out and bought that book. It's a 700 page book. It is a big book. It spans from the tail end of World War II through Korea, Vietnam, and a little bit of post Vietnam. And it's a big book. It's a career military guy. And Colonel Hackworth was

• 14:36Jocko Willink?

  Just, just, just an incredible leader. And you don't just get from that from the book. When you, when you learn about Hackworth, if you start digging in and hearing what other people's opinions are, people loved him, especially the people that worked for him, loved him. Now, obviously, he had some trouble up the chain of command at certain points, but that's, that's part of being, that's part of being a dynamic leader, I guess. And he held his ground on some stuff. So that book is just incredible book and it's got lessons learned on every page. And, you know, I, I cover most of the books that I've read that have had a huge impact on me. I'm, I'm covering them on my podcast.

• 15:18Jocko Willink?

  So books like, like With the Old Breed by Eugene Sled, Sledge, and Beyond Band of Brothers by Dick Winters. I Remember the Last War by a guy named Bob Hoffman. Another book by Hackworth called Steal My Soldier's Heart. Book called Platoon Leader by Jim McDonough. And another good one, another good Vietnam one, The Killing Zone by Frederick Downs. And those books, I mean, you could just go on and on. And again, it's not always clear that, oh, here's the leadership principle.

• 16:02Jocko Willink?

  Here's what you should be doing. No, it's not always clear like that. But when you, when you understand what people are going through emotionally and you start to get a glimpse at human nature and how people react in certain situations and how their egos flare up, that's what makes these books good because it gives you something to, as it gives you a frame of reference. And I'm still reading all the time and I'm still learning, still trying to get better and still trying to take what other people have been through, how they handled it. What they did right, what they did wrong, mistakes they made. That's what I'm trying to do. And actually, I think that's actually one of the things that has made my, my podcast become popular is because I look at these other people's experiences and I compare them with mine.

• 16:48Jocko Willink?

  And it's just, it's, it's always, I'm always learning. And I think that when you look at, I talk about the mistakes that I made and even, even the book that I wrote with Leif, is it certainly isn't any kind of a chronicling of our triumphs. I mean, if anything, it's the opposite in many cases because much of the book is, is about mistakes that we made and it's about things that we could have done better and lessons that we learned. And I think that's why, I think that's why, why that book Extreme Ownership has done well because it's something you can learn from and, and I think people learn the most, myself included, when you fail. So,

• 17:33Jocko Willink?

  read and read and read some more and pay attention to, in my mind, pay, pay attention to the details. Not, again, not just the leadership, but the human, the human element, the human interaction, the glimpses

• 17:51Jocko Willink?

  into the, the core of human nature. And the bigger bank you build of experiencing how humans react, the more you know. And then you take that and you overlay the experiences you read about over what's happening in your world. And that's, I think, a key point is to actually think about how, what you're reading applies to what's happening in your world. And then you start to pay attention to human nature in your world and see that there's some underlying,

• 18:25Jocko Willink?

  some underlying force that makes people do what they do. And the better you can understand that force of human nature, the, the better off you're going to be and the better job you're going to do as a leader.

• 18:38Jocko Willink?

  So keep reading.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  Next up, I got a guy here named Kip McAnouny.

• 18:52Jocko Willink?

  What would his advice be to young men and women who are no longer in the military, but are still looking to contribute? Also, has he considered running for any public office position? So if, if you were in the military and you got out, either you retired or you just did your time and you got out. You know, go out and put those skills that you got from the military, put those skills to work. The, the discipline, the work ethic, the leadership, the, the ability to attack, to detach, the ability to, to instruct.

• 19:33Jocko Willink?

  And there are industries, I'm telling you, I work with businesses all the time now, and there are industries that need you. In fact, I will tell you that most industries need people like you, people like veterans. And so find an industry that, that you're interested in and, and go get busy and go get after it and make that your next mission. And

• 19:59Jocko Willink?

  if there's no industries that interest you, which is kind of hard to believe that you'd have no interest, but if you don't, or if you're looking for something, maybe that has more kind of internal meaning, then go out and find a, a really good nonprofit organization that needs help. Cause again, they need the same thing. They need people, they need leaders, they need people that are disciplined, they need people that can solve problems, they need people with the skills that you have, the skills that you learned in the military. So go and put those to work.

• 20:28Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you that.

• 20:31Jocko Willink?

  There's, you know, America as a whole needs leadership. And so there's no reason that veterans, like I said, who, who have a lot of those skills from being in the military and from being deployed overseas. There's no reason that veterans shouldn't make up a big portion of leaders in the civilian sector. So step up and get after it. I'll say one, one last thing about that is there's a lot of companies and I work, again, I work with all kinds of different companies. All kinds of companies want to hire veterans. They, they recognize that their success is based on the freedoms that they have. So they want to pay back somehow.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  And so there's a many, many companies are, are anxious and eager to, to hire veterans. So get out there, find what you're interested in and make it happen. Now, the other part of this question, as far as running for political office and I, I say this all the time, this is kind of a canned answer. I don't think I have the stomach for it.

• 21:34Jocko Willink?

  The, the corruption and the sliminess of the whole thing. Not to mention just the complete loss of privacy and the scheduling and the whole meeting of people that I don't like and having to be civil to them, the whole thing. It's, it's like I said, I don't, I don't think I have the stomach for it. And I mean, I guess that perhaps at some point

• 22:07Jocko Willink?

  that feeling could be overridden if things got bad enough, you know, I would definitely have a sense of duty and, and I'm a very patriotic person. And if the nation truly needed me, then of course I would serve.

• 22:28Jocko Willink?

  But until that time, I'm going to go ahead and just steer clear of any political endeavors.

• 22:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay. The next question is from Adrian Marquez and it says, any considerations regarding being a pawn of the, and he says industrial military conflicts and, and maybe he means military industrial complex. I'm not sure, but we'll, we'll go with it.

• 22:56Jocko Willink?

  So again, any considerations regarding being a pawn of the industrial military conflicts to serve the economic interests of US corporations? Would he do it all over again? The next part of the question is, what's next? Make up another excuse? Invade an African nation for resources? So, of course, when you are serving in the US military, you are, you are serving, at least you should be serving, the interests of the United States of America. Absolutely. And embedded in those interests, there are absolutely the economic interests of American

• 23:40Jocko Willink?

  corporations. And obviously, the economic power of the United States is a key component of America's power and influence in the world. And so, yeah, when you are a military member, you could be considered a pawn in the military machine. But the fact of the matter is, I am, I'm actually honored to have served as a so-called pawn, pawn in that system.

• 24:20Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you this, and I've said this before, America is, is far from perfect. And we have committed some horrors in our history. And even today, we make mistakes in the world. But when you travel the world, and you see how much of the rest of the world lives, how much they live in disarray, then you see the oppression, and you see the poverty, and you see the corruption, and you see the abject violations of basic human rights.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  Then you realize

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  how blessed or lucky or or maybe even spoiled

• 25:19Jocko Willink?

  we are to live in America. And and just to start, let's just start with, let's start with potable tap water, drinking water. We we just in America, we just have that here. We have it everywhere. Any home, any apartment, even the prisons, you turn on the tap and you get good, clean, disease-free drinking water. And that is not the norm in the rest of the world. And on top of that, we have power. Got electricity going into just about every home.

• 25:56Jocko Willink?

  That means just about every home has heat in the wintertime and they have air conditioning in the summertime. And let's just take it a little bit further. What about the access to the internet? The access to the internet here is widespread. There's like something like 70% of the adults in America have a smartphone. 70%. So

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  70%. So you can gain access to knowledge here unlike any other time in human history.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  And our our healthcare system.

• 26:33Jocko Willink?

  I know it's not perfect, but I'll tell you what, if you view our healthcare system from a third world hospital, which often don't even have the simplest of medical gear, you'd realize it might not be perfect, but it's pretty damn good.

• 26:53Jocko Willink?

  And then beyond that, it's just like, let's look at the food that's available. Never mind starvation and malnutrition. Our issue in America is actually too much food.

• 27:07Jocko Willink?

  And and much of the world still has people literally starving to death.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  And

• 27:14Jocko Willink?

  America offers an amazing opportunity to build and to create and to be what you want to be and to be who you want to be. Unlike anywhere else in the world, the ability to pursue happiness.

• 27:35Jocko Willink?

  Happiness.

• 27:39Jocko Willink?

  And, and all those things, all of it, is possible because of the unbridled individual freedom that America offers. And you know what else? It's also possible because of industry, because of the incredible corporations and businesses and individuals, because of people, that took advantage of that freedom and worked their asses off to build this nation.

• 28:16Jocko Willink?

  So, to have been a pawn in that, to have done my small share of work to allow this beacon of light and of hope and of freedom to continue, I'm, I'm honored that I had the chance. And would I do it all again? You're damn right I would, without question. And then, there's another piece to this question from Mr. Marquez. It says, "What's next?

• 29:01Jocko Willink?

  Make up another excuse? Invade an African country, or an African nation for resources?" Well luckily, we have plenty of resources in our own nation, and luckily for the rest of the world, we have used those resources over and over and over again, not to take, but to give. To give freedom to the slaves in our own country, to defeat and destroy the brutal Nazi regime in Germany and free the people of France and much of Europe. We used our resources to defeat Imperial Japan, who was rampaging through Asia, invading

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  and enslaving people with no sign of stopping.

• 29:52Jocko Willink?

  We used our resources to try and stop the spread of communism in Asia.

• 30:00Jocko Willink?

  And remember, that when I'm talking about resources, I'm not just talking about oil and steel and wood.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  I'm talking about blood.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  I'm talking about hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of American men and women that gave their lives

• 30:25Jocko Willink?

  in the cause of freedom.

• 30:29Jocko Willink?

  And, and what, what resources did we take when we paid with our blood?

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  We took nothing.

• 30:42Jocko Willink?

  We took, we took no resources from the Germans. We helped them rebuild into an economic superpower. We took no resources from the Japanese. We helped them rebuild into an economic superpower.

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  The Japanese and the Germans both have some of the highest standards of living in the world.

• 31:03Jocko Willink?

  We took nothing from Korea or Vietnam, and we took nothing from Afghanistan and even Iraq.

• 31:12Jocko Willink?

  We took nothing.

• 31:15Jocko Willink?

  And we only gave.

• 31:18Jocko Willink?

  And we continue to give. In 2014, the US government gave 43 billion dollars in foreign aid.

• 31:31Jocko Willink?

  And then, there was another 25 billion on top of that from America, from religious organizations and universities and colleges and private voluntary organizations, and even the big American corporations.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  Now, like I said, that doesn't mean that America's perfect.

• 31:56Jocko Willink?

  Far from it.

• 31:59Jocko Willink?

  Far from it. And our past is checkered with horrible mistakes that we've made as a nation.

• 32:08Jocko Willink?

  We've caused massive hardships and incredible suffering.

• 32:15Jocko Willink?

  But we also evolved.

• 32:19Jocko Willink?

  And we have become a benevolent nation, a good nation.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  And I know this because I saw it with my own two eyes.

• 32:33Jocko Willink?

  I saw the people of Iraq who wanted freedom from the tyranny of Saddam Hussein, who then wanted protection from the violent terrorist extremists, who cheered us in the streets when we killed insurgents and who wept when we left them.

• 32:54Jocko Willink?

  And unfortunately, who were murdered when we abandoned them because of the politics in our own country. They wanted us in Iraq, the people of Iraq, the normal citizens. They wanted our protection and they wanted our positivity.

• 33:13Jocko Willink?

  And they wanted freedom.

• 33:18Jocko Willink?

  Like much of the world does.

• 33:22Jocko Willink?

  And I was honored to have done my small part

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  to provide the opportunity for freedom around the world and to protect that precious freedom,

• 33:39Jocko Willink?

  which is all too often taken for granted here at home.

• 33:54Jocko Willink?

  Now, the next question. The next question is from someone named Don Ryan.

• 34:06Jocko Willink?

  And he says, "What's the hardest thing you've ever gone through? And what do you foresee as the toughest thing on the horizon you'll endure?"

• 34:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, the hardest thing I've ever gone through is losing my men in combat.

• 34:32Jocko Willink?

  And I say my men, but they weren't my men. They were my friends, and they were my brothers.

• 34:48Jocko Willink?

  And barring the loss of any members of my direct family, I don't think I'll ever have to endure anything as

• 35:01Jocko Willink?

  soul-crushing and devastating

• 35:06Jocko Willink?

  as losing my friends in combat.

• 35:18Jocko Willink?

  Next question.

• 35:23Jocko Willink?

  This is from Nathan Low.

• 35:29Jocko Willink?

  "What advice would you give an active-duty Navy SEAL or other military personnel following the election, if Hillary is elected or if Trump is elected?"

• 35:41Jocko Willink?

  Well, the fact of the matter is either Hillary or Trump will be elected. And the SEALs, just like the rest of the military, will do what the military always does and what they are sworn to do. And if you don't know what that is, I wrote down here the oath of enlistment, and I'll read it to you so you know what it's, what it says. It says, "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers

• 36:20Jocko Willink?

  appointed over me according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

• 36:30Jocko Willink?

  So that's the, that's the oath that you swear to when you join the military. You're going to obey those orders. Now, there is a little bit of a caveat. And that is in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 92. Because it gets a little bit more specific. The article is entitled "Failure to Obey Order or Regulation." "Any person subject to this chapter who, number one, violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

• 37:06Jocko Willink?

  two, having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by any member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order, or is derelict in the performance of his duties, shall be punished as court martial may direct." So, the key word there is lawful order. And they made this perfectly clear during the Nuremberg Trials, when the Nazi war criminals claimed that they were just following orders.

• 37:38Jocko Willink?

  Well, in America, that doesn't cut it.

• 37:42Jocko Willink?

  They have to be lawful orders.

• 37:45Jocko Willink?

  So regardless if Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Obama, Bush, Nixon, JFK, or Reagan, it doesn't matter.

• 37:56Jocko Willink?

  The military will carry out the lawful orders of the President, and that's that.

• 38:05Jocko Willink?

  Next question is from AJ Nystrom.

• 38:11Jocko Willink?

  He says, Jocko, in your book, you speak about leadership down and up the chain of command. What in your opinion and experience is the most effective way to get leadership up the chain, to wake up and break the cycle of rubber stamping ineffective practices, especially in law enforcement?

• 38:30Jocko Willink?

  So, this is a big question. And I'll tell you, first things first, the first thing you have to do is be awesome.

• 38:38Jocko Willink?

  That's what you gotta do, seriously. You gotta be the best police officer you can be, and this goes for any job. You gotta build the best possible reputation, and that means you gotta follow the rules. Even the stupid inconsequential rules, all of them.

• 38:56Jocko Willink?

  Become the front runner, the top dog. Now, that doesn't mean you become the loudmouth or the attention grabber, but you become the best legit police officer you can possibly be. And not only is this gonna build your reputation, it's also gonna start to build your relationships up the chain of command. And that's what you're trying to do, you're trying to build some relationships here. And the reason for that is you need to build up the capital, the leadership capital, the respect capital, so that you can ask some legitimate questions. And when the time comes, you go and you ask those questions.

• 39:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, actually, I shouldn't say ask questions, because that gives them a setup to provide you with the answers, and you already know the answers and you don't agree with them. So instead of asking questions, you take the reputation that you built as a badass, and you raise points, and when you raise points, you have solutions.

• 39:59Jocko Willink?

  And you have solutions that you've already socialized with the team, that you've already maybe even tested, or you've at least tried. In other words, these are solutions that you know are gonna work.

• 40:13Jocko Willink?

  And also, pick your battles.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  Pick your battles. You gotta, you're gonna have to eat some, some stupid stuff. You're gonna do some lame things, but you gotta pick your battles. You're not gonna be able to change everything, so you gotta pick the most impactful issues to deal with. And the other ones, just, you support those and you follow those like a good soldier.

• 40:40Jocko Willink?

  Because that gives you more capital. When you do raise issues. And, and here's the other piece. When you raise issues up the chain of command, and this is a piece that people mess this up all the time. When you raise these points up the chain of command and when you give the solutions. You have to do it from a point of humility. You can't be looking for the credit, you can't be looking for the attaboy. You gotta come across and you've got it, not just come across, you've got to actually be

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  the humble person putting forth some suggestions on how to do things better. And I'll tell you that the absolute black belt move is when you get them to think

• 41:29Jocko Willink?

  that it's their idea. And that they came up with it and that they've made up that solution. That's the ultimate black belt move.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're looking to achieve. And that is how you win, and that is what I did with my career. I worked as hard as I could, I followed everything they told me, but when something stood out, I was able to attack it, address it and get the problem solved or changed because I had built up that capital. So build your reputation, build your relationships, build and vet your idea and your solution. And then present it with humility.

• 42:13Jocko Willink?

  Next question is from a guy named Jonathan Mule.

• 42:22Jocko Willink?

  How would his lifestyle of extreme discipline translate to someone living a seemingly unrelated life? Artists, writers, etc. who might find more productivity in pockets of leisure or late at night? Now, I would argue that in these creative pursuits, you actually require even more discipline. And I would venture to guess that the biggest reason that creative types, people in creative industries, they, well, the reason that they don't produce isn't because they don't have vision, and it's not because they don't have talent. I can just about guarantee that in most cases, it's a lack of discipline.

• 43:05Jocko Willink?

  I, I'm always saying about, about working out, I'm always saying that the, the weights in the gym aren't gonna lift themselves. You gotta go lift them. Well, it's the same thing with a book. That book isn't gonna write itself. You gotta write it. And the painting isn't gonna paint itself, you gotta paint it. And if you don't feel like writing, or drawing, or painting, or composing, that doesn't matter. You do it anyways. You, you grit down and you force the words onto the paper, or you force the brush onto

• 43:47Jocko Willink?

  the paper, or you force the notes out of the instrument. That's what you have to do. You have to make it happen. You have to force yourself to do it. And it's not always gonna be good. And you might go back, you might write a thousand words, and you might delete 950 of them. But you got 50 words, 50 words that you didn't have before, 50 words that you've created that are solid, 50 words closer to reaching your goal.

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  Now, as far as the time of day goes, to me, it doesn't matter. If, if you have some kind of time of day where things seem to flow better or whatever, great. Take advantage of it. I think, I think people think because I wake up early, which I do, that I believe that everyone must do that. But honestly, it's, it's, that's not true. It's, it's the principle. It's, it's about the principle, not about the specific time.

• 44:57Jocko Willink?

  And I gotta throw a big butt on that. Because although you can, you can maybe work at different times, or maybe you stay up later, or maybe you do better work at 2 o'clock in the morning, or 3 o'clock in the morning, and so there's no way you're getting up at 4:30, that's okay.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  But that doesn't mean oversleep, and it doesn't mean procrastinating, it doesn't mean hit the snooze button, and it doesn't mean staying up late, diving into the depths of useless YouTube videos and claim that that is you being creative.

• 45:31Jocko Willink?

  Do not lie to yourself. There's a decent chance that being creative is actually being lazy in your mind. Do not, do not fall into that trap.

• 45:47Jocko Willink?

  And I'll tell you something else.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  In order to gain skills, in order to master your craft, any craft, you have to practice. You have to practice and practice and practice over and over and over again and again, and that requires discipline. That requires discipline, and that is another example of how discipline will equal freedom. The more you practice your craft, the better you get at it, the more freedom you have to create.

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  So build the structure and follow it, put the discipline into your life.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  And the discipline, it will increase your skills, and it will increase your productivity.

• 46:37Jocko Willink?

  And the discipline will, it'll set you free.

• 46:45Jocko Willink?

  Now, going on to the next question here. Will the muster event, oh, sorry, this is from Marco Lopez. Marco Lopez. Will the muster event be a once a year thing only? After working with and training so many different companies, are there any repeating patterns or common weaknesses that business owners seem to need to work on? And it also says, will you please encourage Jocko to do another Joe Rogan podcast? So, right on. Joe, Joe knows I'm standing by. We'll, we'll make it happen at some point. Yeah, great to be on his show. We're just, we're just now getting around to round two, two with, with Tim.

• 47:29Jocko Willink?

  So, maybe Joe's around the corner. So, we'll, we'll have to wait and see on that one. All right, to get to the question here, for those of you don't know, the Extreme Ownership muster is a leadership event that we're having in, in San Diego, California. I'm doing it with, with my business partner, the co-author of the book Extreme Ownership, Leif Babin, who's a, a SEAL that I worked with for many years. And my brother, and we're holding this thing in San Diego, California on October 20th and 21st. And what the event is, it's going to be about combat leadership. That's what it's going to be about. It's going to be about combat leadership and we're going to teach the fundamental principles

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  of combat leadership and how to apply them on the battlefield, in business and in life, all, all three. And they're all, you're going to see when you come, you're going to see how all three of the applications are the same. These fundamental combat leadership principles, they don't change regardless of whether you're out hunting down bad guys or whether you're hunting for a sale. They don't change. And the response to the event has been, it's been awesome. And we got a ton of people coming to it, which likely means it looks like we're going to do another event. Possibly, we gotta carve the time out of the schedule, but it looks like possibly

• 48:52Jocko Willink?

  the spring of 2017 likely going to be somewhere on the East Coast. If it's going to be somewhere on the East Coast, there's probably a pretty good chance we'll be looking at New York City. Not set in stone that we're gonna do it, not set in stone when we're gonna do it. We might wait another year. I don't know yet. It's just up in the air. We have so much stuff on our plates right now that we've gotta figure out if we can fit it in, but if we do it again, maybe we'll head out to the East Coast. And, you know, New York City, get some. Now, the next part of this question is, are there any repeating patterns or common weaknesses that business owners need to work on? And the answer is yes, absolutely, there are.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  And we see the same issues from company to company and from leader to leader. And the same issues that we see in the civilian sector are the same issues that we saw while we were working with SEAL platoons and training SEAL platoons. And the core problems that we see are what we wrote about in the book Extreme Ownership. That's one of the reasons we wrote the book was because when we'd work with these companies, people would say, do you have this stuff written down anywhere? And eventually we wrote it down. Now, what are some of those issues that we run into? I mean, you've got departments and divisions that aren't working together to cover a move. You've got communications not being made in a simple, clear, concise manner. You've got either too much micromanagement, which leaves the troops to take no initiative,

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  or you've got not enough guidance and the troops now don't know which direction to head into. Or you get a company that's trying to take on too many projects or too many initiatives at the same time and they don't prioritize and execute, so they end up getting none of them done. And, and then the, obviously, the most impactful one is when you have leaders and team members taking ownership, real ownership, extreme ownership of everything in the world, to make sure that problems get uncovered and owned and resolved.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  Because if leaders and, and members of the team, if they don't take ownership of the problems...

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  Then guess who solves the problems? Nobody. So these are all, again, these are our fundamental problems that I saw when I was training SEAL platoons and it's the same thing I see now and it's the same solutions that we apply to these

• 51:23Jocko Willink?

  same problems. Learning the tactics, the fundamental tactics of leadership is, is what we get down to.

• 51:33Jocko Willink?

  And we'll see you at the muster.

• 51:36Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next.

• 51:40Jocko Willink?

  This next question is from Damian Hudson.

• 51:44Jocko Willink?

  What does Jocko struggle with? Or maybe better to say, what is he at work on? He comes across bulletproof and just pushes through on everything.

• 51:57Jocko Willink?

  Would like to know his method for identifying weaknesses and putting structures in place to resolve, correct, improve. Would like to know his approach for his personal challenges. Well, first of all, I can assure you that I am far from bulletproof. And when you ask what I struggle with, I struggle with everything. I'm, I'm not naturally gifted at pretty much anything. I'm, I'm not naturally strong. I'm not naturally fast. I'm certainly not the, uh, the sharpest tool in the shed. And so I constantly have to work on my weaknesses. And if you want to know what my weaknesses are, there's, we don't have enough time on the podcast to list all my weaknesses.

• 52:42Jocko Willink?

  I mean, it just, that's the way it is. Now, as far as my method for identifying weaknesses, it's pretty simple. I'm constantly doing a self-assessment and detaching and looking at what I'm doing and what I can do better. And I ask people that are close to me, people that I trust, ask them if they have any feedback for me. Ask them if there's anything I could do better or where I can improve. So that's pretty simple. Do a self-assessment, ask other people and find out what your weaknesses are, what you could do better. And then the next part of the question is, what do I do to put structures in place to resolve, correct and improve?

• 53:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, I, I just attack those problems.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Weakness identified? Roger, attack the weakness. Problem identified? Roger, attack the problem. And I'll tell you, I'm not a guy that spends a bunch of time over analyzing, or over planning, or diving deep into meditation on how I'm going to attack a problem. I simply attack the problem. Now, that doesn't mean that I blindly attack, and it doesn't mean that I hold a course without checking on my progress. As I attack a problem, I'm going to continually assess and make sure that I'm on the right course, that I'm headed in the right direction, and making sure that it's the most efficient path. And I will absolutely change course if I see something I can do better.

• 54:11Jocko Willink?

  And because I have that kind of attitude, it allows me to move quickly to execute, and then initiate change and alter the course as I go, if it's needed. And it's the same attitude that I had when I was in the SEAL Teams. I could be very decisive very quickly, because the decisions themselves did not close my mind.

• 54:34Jocko Willink?

  The decisions did not close my mind. I would make a decision, and I would continue to reassess and readjust as needed. But also, as we moved forward towards a solution. So, you got a problem? Step one, identify the problem. Step two, attack it. Step three, reassess and adjust, and keep attacking. Get that thing solved.

• 55:05Jocko Willink?

  Next question is from Chris Bell.

• 55:09Jocko Willink?

  "How to stay motivated when every day is a struggle to accomplish goals?" Well, I can tell you very easily, this isn't about motivation.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  And accomplishing your goals is not about motivation, it's about discipline. I already talked about that once today and I'll say it again. I probably talked about it more than once, talked about it a bunch, I talk about it all the time. It is about discipline. Motivation is fickle. Motivation comes and go. I mean, you think about motivation, you, you, it's something as simply as being hungry can sap your motivation. Right? That's ridiculous. You can't rely on that. You have, oh, my blood sugar went down, I'm, I'm not motivated anymore. Oh, I didn't get enough caffeine, I'm not motivated. No, wrong answer. Motivation is unreliable and when you're counting on motivation to get your goals accomplished, you're likely going to fall short. So, don't count on motivation. Count on discipline.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  You know what you have to do. Go make yourself do it. Make yourself do it. Everybody wants some kind of magic pill or some

• 56:21Jocko Willink?

  life hack or something that eliminates the need to do the work. Well, I will tell you what, you need to do the work. You gotta hold the line. You gotta make it happen yourself. You have to make it happen. It's not going to happen on its own. You have to make it happen. So, dig in.

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  Find the discipline, be the discipline, and accomplish the goals, period. That's it.

• 56:59Jocko Willink?

  And our next question is from Austin Farley. And he said, best advice to today's active duty force regardless of branch,

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  about career oversight deployments, differences between all service members? Okay, so, the, the basic question is best advice. Well, the advice... Besides be aggressive and stay safe. That's my number one. Uh, I would tell you for me, the biggest component for, for success in the military, i- in my opinion, is to do a great job in whatever you're doing. And I know that sounds pretty obvious, but I'll tell you, I saw a lot of guys over the years who were always looking for the next ticket to punch, or the next good deal, or the next job that they had to get to take to make a promotion or whatever. And for me, for the most part, I just took what they gave me and I did the best I could at it. And I'll tell you,

• 57:55Jocko Willink?

  not only did this keep the Navy happy, because the Navy, you know, they had a trooper that was just getting after it. It also kept me happy. Cause I wasn't sweating the promotion or the evaluations or any of the political stuff. I was just, I was just getting after it to the best of my ability. And if you do that, I'll, I, in my opinion, if you do that, your career will take care of itself. You, you'll get the good jobs because people will want you in those good jobs.

• 58:25Jocko Willink?

  And the other thing I would say is this.

• 58:32Jocko Willink?

  A big piece of being in the military is a gut check.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  It's hard work. It's either too hot or too cold. It's not enough food. It's not enough sleep. It's not enough water. It's hurry up and wait. It's plan for months to do nothing and then don't plan at all to do something for months. And on top of all that, you throw the politics and the egos and the bureaucracy. And when you mix all that together, it, it can be pretty miserable.

• 59:12Jocko Willink?

  But I will tell you this, all that misery, relish it. Relish every moment of it because those hard things, those rough things, those are a part of the experience of the military and its experiences like that. I promise you will, for some twisted reason,

• 59:40Jocko Willink?

  you will miss them when you leave. So, don't hate them, don't avoid them, dive into them and kick them in the ass with a smile on your face because another thing is that smile is contagious and you elevate the morale of your whole unit when you wear that smile. So have fun and kick ass at what you're doing. And for those of you out there on the front lines, like I said, be aggressive. The best way to mitigate risk on the battlefield is to be aggressive. Do not be reactive.

• 1:00:23Jocko Willink?

  Step up and get after it.

• 1:00:28Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, to all you active duty folks, thank you for what you're doing. And for the vets that are listening, thank you for what you did.

• 1:00:40Jocko Willink?

  Next up, I got a question from Paul Wetkick. And it says, unfortunately, this is to Tim, I guess, unfortunately you, Rogan and Harris, all pussy footed around him. I realize he's probably an intimidating presence, but ask him how he feels about killing people, especially possibly innocents. And don't let him use the doing my job, bad guys collateral damage narratives. Ask him how he feels about it. He's intelligent enough to cope with being pressed for an authentic answer.

• 1:01:19Jocko Willink?

  So Paul wants to know about killing people and possibly killing innocent people. And what that's how I feel about that. So first of all,

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  the nature of war is death.

• 1:01:43Jocko Willink?

  The nature of war is is killing.

• 1:01:48Jocko Willink?

  That is what war is. And of course, there's all kinds of other components to war. There's economic and cultural and diplomatic and strategic. But at its fundamental core, war is about death and war is about killing.

• 1:02:04Jocko Willink?

  And in the question here,

• 1:02:08Jocko Willink?

  I'm told I'm not allowed to use the narrative of doing my job, but there's a reason why that narrative exists. Because death and killing actually is the job of a soldier.

• 1:02:22Jocko Willink?

  And we train for that job. And when the time comes, we do our job and we are good with it.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, part of that comes from the training. And part of that also comes from the dehumanization of the enemy.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  Yes, that is a true statement. The enemy becomes dehumanized to the soldier.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  That's one of the reasons why soldiers are generally okay with it. And in the past, the military had to help that process along. They had to help the soldier dehumanize the enemy. And it still does do that to some extent. But I think in the wars that we are in now, we don't need any help dehumanizing the enemy.

• 1:03:21Jocko Willink?

  The enemy dehumanizes himself.

• 1:03:27Jocko Willink?

  You see, we in the military, we witness what they do. We see what they do.

• 1:03:39Jocko Willink?

  We see the results of the torture and the rape and the murder.

• 1:03:47Jocko Willink?

  We see families beheaded. We see people skinned alive.

• 1:03:56Jocko Willink?

  We see young people, kids.

• 1:04:02Jocko Willink?

  Kids. Forced to carry out suicide bombings.

• 1:04:10Jocko Willink?

  And now, with the internet in action, the whole world can see the completely despicable and brutal behavior of these subhuman savages. Burning people alive, throwing people from buildings, drowning people in cages. Ten-year-old sex slaves.

• 1:04:38Jocko Willink?

  It's absolutely disgusting and abhorrent.

• 1:04:45Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you that I have no problem whatsoever killing all these vile creatures, all of them.

• 1:05:00Jocko Willink?

  Now, you also ask about killing innocents. Killing innocent people.

• 1:05:08Jocko Willink?

  And, as I already stated, the nature of war is death.

• 1:05:15Jocko Willink?

  And in war, innocent people sometimes are killed.

• 1:05:22Jocko Willink?

  And you want to know how I feel about it? Well, it is horrible.

• 1:05:28Jocko Willink?

  It is horrible. It is awful when it does occur. And yes, it does occur.

• 1:05:37Jocko Willink?

  And let me tell you

• 1:05:40Jocko Willink?

  that America goes through great lengths, extreme lengths, and in doing so, incurs incredible risk to prevent killing innocent people on the battlefield.

• 1:05:54Jocko Willink?

  When I fought with the 11 AD in the Battle of Ramadi in 2006, the entire strategy, the entire strategy was developed to minimize not only the killing of innocent people, but also to minimize the amount of infrastructure that was destroyed. So the buildings and the power and the water, all that. And again, American troops took incredible risks, incredible risks to mitigate the risks to civilians.

• 1:06:27Jocko Willink?

  But war is messy, war is confusing, war is imperfect.

• 1:06:39Jocko Willink?

  War is hell.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  And despite all the efforts that we make, despite all the good intentions and the precautions and the planning, sometimes innocent people are killed and it's horrible.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  And it's horrible for the family of the slain and it's horrible for the military man that pulled the trigger or dropped the bomb or threw their grenade. It's horrible for the mission. Because in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, we are there to protect the local populace. So it takes us backwards strategically as we try to win the hearts and minds of the people.

• 1:07:22Jocko Willink?

  But you know what?

• 1:07:26Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't defeat us.

• 1:07:30Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't beat us and it doesn't even turn the local populace against us. And I'm speaking now from my experience in the Battle of Ramadi. And let it be perfectly clear that the local population in Ramadi absolutely wanted us there.

• 1:07:47Jocko Willink?

  They wanted us on the ground in their neighborhoods. They wanted us to help them get rid of the insurgents that were terrorizing them, literally terrorizing them.

• 1:08:02Jocko Willink?

  And when innocent people were killed, for whatever reason, we apologized.

• 1:08:09Jocko Willink?

  And we did what we could to help, and we met, and we broke bread, and we explained what had gone wrong, and we asked what we could do to help, and we paid them money, and we helped them repair their buildings. We did whatever we could.

• 1:08:25Jocko Willink?

  And I will tell you, and this never gets represented in the press, but most of the time, the local populace, they understood.

• 1:08:35Jocko Willink?

  They understood it was a war.

• 1:08:40Jocko Willink?

  They understood it was a war against evil, and they understood that that meant violence.

• 1:08:47Jocko Willink?

  And they understood that in our efforts to help them get rid of the cancer that ravaged their city.

• 1:08:59Jocko Willink?

  Well, they understood

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  that there would be bloodshed in removing that cancer.

• 1:09:12Jocko Willink?

  War is hell.

• 1:09:18Jocko Willink?

  It is best to be avoided at all costs, so that innocent lives are not lost.

• 1:09:31Jocko Willink?

  But

• 1:09:33Jocko Willink?

  sometimes war cannot be avoided, and sometimes war should not be avoided.

• 1:09:42Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes, in order to protect the innocents, war is the only choice.

• 1:09:52Jocko Willink?

  And I am thankful

• 1:09:55Jocko Willink?

  that there are men and women in the military that have the courage and the strength and the moral fortitude to stand up and face evil and to also withstand the awful burden

• 1:10:12Jocko Willink?

  of killing and of death.

• 1:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Now, I think this is the last question here.

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  This question came from Andy Vasly. It says, "What are the biggest lessons learned from jujitsu that transcend the art of fighting itself and can be applied to being an effective leader?"

• 1:10:44Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 1:10:47Jocko Willink?

  I'm a practitioner of jujitsu and it is a, it's a pretty incredible,

• 1:10:56Jocko Willink?

  it's a pretty incredible thing to train. And for those of you that train jujitsu, you know what I'm talking about. For those of you that don't train jujitsu, go train jujitsu.

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Because there's so much to be learned from jujitsu about leadership and about life. I mean, for instance, I talked about discipline a lot today. In jujitsu, you're going to learn about discipline because it takes discipline to get on the mat day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  And you won't always feel like training. As fun as jujitsu is, there's going to be days you don't feel like training, but you have to find the discipline and you have to do it. So you're going to learn about discipline in jujitsu. You're also going to learn about humility. Because in jujitsu, you will get humbled. You will get beat by people that are smaller than you and weaker than you, and they will smash you. They will literally submit you.

• 1:11:59Jocko Willink?

  And that is humbling, and there is no escaping it.

• 1:12:04Jocko Willink?

  And those, those are very important. Because, like I said, I've said this before, is that those are lessons that some traditional martial arts would try and teach you, almost as theoretical lessons, you know, like you, you must be disciplined. They'll tell you that, in theory, but in Jiu-Jitsu, like I said, without, without discipline, there's no, there's no progress. And in a traditional martial art, they'll say, oh, you know, you must be humble. Like I said, in Jiu-Jitsu, you actually get humbled. So, Jiu-Jitsu teaches you a lot about life.

• 1:12:41Jocko Willink?

  And, that's one of the things that makes it so powerful, and it has the question, back to the question, was what does it teach you about leadership? It absolutely teaches you some key things about leadership, and I'll give you a couple of the most important elements.

• 1:12:56Jocko Willink?

  First of all, detachment.

• 1:13:00Jocko Willink?

  And I've mentioned this word a couple of times today, in Jiu-Jitsu, I'll tell you right now, if you let yourself start to get frustrated, or you let yourself start to get angry, or just emotional in general, you will start to make bad decisions. And, when you start to make bad decisions, that is the beginning of the end. So you have to be able to detach from that emotion, that frustration, and you gotta focus on doing the right thing at the right time. It's absolutely necessary. And, and that's the same thing in a combat leadership position, or in any leadership situation. You cannot get caught up in all the chaos and all the mayhem.

• 1:13:43Jocko Willink?

  You can't let your emotions get a hold of you. So you have to be able to detach from that. You have to be able to step back and breathe and see the full picture of what is happening without the cloud of emotion and all that mayhem obscuring your vision, so that you can make good decisions.

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  And Jiu-Jitsu will teach you to do that.

• 1:14:09Jocko Willink?

  Now, another piece of Jiu-Jitsu that transfers directly into, into leadership, is the idea of indirect warfare, right? So in Jiu-Jitsu, the whole premise is to attack the weaknesses of your opponent. You don't want to attack their strengths. You want to attack, I mean, just fundamentally, you, you attack the weak areas of their body, like the joints or the neck. You're, you're not attacking the strongest parts of their body. And if you attack where your opponent is strong, so if you have an opponent that's very good at defending one type of, one position or one type of hold, you're just going to wear yourself out. If you're attacking that, eventually you're going to run out of energy and then they're going to get the advantage.

• 1:14:55Jocko Willink?

  So you can't just attack the strengths. You have to attack the weak points in Jiu-Jitsu. And now on top of that, you also have to distract your opponent. And you have to make them defend some area. So you might maybe attack one area so that they put their defenses there, but it's just a feint. Cause what you're really going to do is you're going to go and attack an area where they're not defending. You're going to attack their weak areas. And it's the same thing with leadership. And the clearest example of where this is directly seen in leadership is when you're dealing with people's egos. So you take a person that has a big, strong ego. You don't attack that ego head on.

• 1:15:40Jocko Willink?

  That will just make that person get ultra defensive. If you attack their ego, they're going to get defensive immediately. Now you've built up, now you're going to have an even harder fight. So what you do is you bypass their ego. Maybe you even massage their ego a little bit.

• 1:15:57Jocko Willink?

  So that they let down their guard.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  So that they let you into their head a little bit. And then tactically and quietly you sneak in and you plant the seeds of what you're trying to get them to do.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  Of where you're trying to lead them.

• 1:16:14Jocko Willink?

  And soon enough, without seeing it, those seeds are going to grow and your idea and your plan and your leadership comes to fruition. And that is indirect warfare. And it's the same thing in jujitsu, it's the same thing in business, and it's actually the same thing on the battlefield as well. We don't attack enemy strengths unless it cannot be avoided. So take up that jujitsu, start training, and apply those lessons across the board in your life. And I think that's, I think that's it for questions for now. Thanks to everybody for listening and thanks, of course,

• 1:16:58Jocko Willink?

  to Mr. Mr. Tim Ferriss for having me on. Tim has been, for those of you don't know, he's been a huge supporter since I met him. And I really appreciate, Tim, everything you've done for me, and everything that's kind of stemmed from that has been, has been awesome. The interaction from everybody through social media and Twitter and Facebook and all that, and everyone that's listening and giving me feedback on, on the podcast that I have and the book that I wrote with my buddy Leif, and it's just awesome to connect with so many people. And it's awesome to know that there's so many people that are in the game. So many people that want to get after

• 1:17:38Jocko Willink?

  it, just like me, looking to get better, looking to do better, looking to be better. So, thanks to everybody for everything. And like I said, especially thanks to Tim for, for kicking this whole thing off. So, until next time, this is Jocko.

• 1:18:03Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest Things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:18:46Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget it investing service led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years and they now have more than $2.5 billion under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is why?

• 1:19:31Tim Ferriss?

  Why is it so popular? Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, et cetera. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out wealthfront.com/tim. Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they'd put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. And here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not

• 1:20:15Tim Ferriss?

  be familiar with, like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than 10 asset classes, and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time. Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, et cetera, can offer all of this at low cost. That were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees. For everything, they charge 0.25% per year on assets above the first 15,000, which is managed for free if you use my link, wealthfront.com/tim. That is less than $5 a month to invest a $30,000 account, for instance. Now, normally, when I have a sponsor on the show, it's because I use them and recommend them. In this case, it's a little different.

• 1:20:58Tim Ferriss?

  I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast, but because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials. So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now, back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at wealthfront.com/tim. It's fast, it's free, there's no downside that I can think of.

• 1:21:42Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Headspace. More than 80% of the people I have interviewed, world-class performers across the military, entertainment, sports, and beyond, all have some type of meditative practice. I tried for years and years and failed miserably. The key is making it simple, and you can dramatically improve your life in just 10 minutes a day, and technology can help you. This change comes through guided meditation, and Headspace is by far the most popular app for this purpose. More than 4 million users, it's meditation made simple. So what I recommend is that you take this practice, meditation, which is rooted in thousands of years of tradition, supported by thousands of scientific studies,

• 1:22:25Tim Ferriss?

  and try it for 10 minutes a day for 10 days. That's all you need to do. You could also check out the founder, Andy Puddicombe's TED Talk, which has more than 5.5 million views. His last name is P U D D I C O M B E, if you want to look that up. But otherwise, download the Free Headspace app, I have it on my phone, and begin their Take 10 program for 10 days of guided meditation, completely free, 10 minutes a day, that's all it takes. You should give it a shot. Headspace.com/Tim. Just go to Headspace.com/Tim.