Back on the Menu: Kristen Kish Dishes It All (First Guest Episode Re-Release)

It’s a new year, so we’re throwing it back to one of our favorite episodes of The Chef’s Cut. Award-winning chef Kristen Kish joins hosts Adrienne Cheatham and Joe Flamm for a deep, fun, and unfiltered conversation about her Top Chef memories, Chicago food roots, and the biggest lessons from the kitchen. In this episode, they dive into: The power of kitchen mentorship, featuring the San Pellegrino Young Chef Academy Kristen, Adrienne, and Joe’s first impressions and early memories of one another The buzz around the Charlie Trotter tribute pop-up event A new round of Fork It or Forget It featuring Raspberry Espresso Tom Colicchio’s hidden tradition from the Top Chef finale Kristen’s shocking Walk-In Confession about her worst kitchen mistake Burning foie gras, forgetting meat, and other culinary disasters Her honest journey writing "Accidentally on Purpose," her personal memoir 🎧 Whether you're a Top Chef fan, an aspiring chef, or love insider food stories — this episode is packed with flavor, failure, and fun. 🔗 Follow the Hosts & Guest: 👩‍🍳 Kristen Kish:⁠ @kristenlkish⁠ 👩‍🍳 Adrienne Cheatham:⁠ @chefadriennecheatham⁠ 👨‍🍳 Joe Flamm:⁠ @insta.flamm

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  This week on The Chef's Cut Encore Week Number Two, we are throwing it back to our very first guest episode with the one and only Kristin Kish. All the good times that we love. This was one of our favorite episodes and we think that you will love to hear it. Enjoy and happy holidays.

• 0:21Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to this episode of The Chef's Cut. I am Adrienne Cheatham.

• 0:26Joe Flamm?

  I am Joe Flamm.

• 0:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  So today's guest, super exciting. Joe, your friend, my friend, everybody's friend.

• 0:36Joe Flamm?

  Friend of the people.

• 0:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Friend of the people, chef and show host Kristin Kish. Now,

• 0:42Joe Flamm?

  And.

• 0:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  And New York Times.

• 0:44Joe Flamm?

  Bestseller.

• 0:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Bestseller. Yes, her new book Accidentally on Purpose is officially a New York Times bestseller. She is the host of Bravo's Top Chef. She's an all-around badass, has a restaurant, The Arlo Gray, in Austin, Texas, and she is just one of the coolest people you will ever meet in your life.

• 1:04Joe Flamm?

  Some of the best hair in the game, too.

• 1:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, well coiffed. So well coiffed.

• 1:09Joe Flamm?

  That flow is top tier.

• 1:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  I mean, she puts you to shame, Joe.

• 1:13Joe Flamm?

  It's a joke. It's a joke. Standing next to her is very, very fun, but also wildly embarrassing when you're trying to look good.

• 1:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's also very intimidating. I didn't realize how tall she was until I met her in person one time. I was like, oh.

• 1:26Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, but just, you know, one of those people who's incredible chef, better person, and a ton of fun. You know what I mean? Super quirky and just, I've always had a blast every time I've gotten the opportunity to work with her.

• 1:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's right. You've done the dish with Kish.

• 1:40Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I've judged some episodes of Top Chef with her, done the dish with Kish with her, and every time it's been an absolute blast, just chopping it up with her.

• 1:50Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, and Joe, we have something super special that I'm really excited about. Our podcast is officially sponsored now by San Pellegrino. So we want to give a special thank you to San Pellegrino and the Young Chefs Academy. They're providing mentorship opportunities. They're really helping push the industry forward through mentorship, and that's a huge part of what needs to happen to help keep our industry moving forward. So let's, let's bring her in. Everybody, this is our episode today with Kristin Kish.

• 2:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Hey Kristin, welcome to the show. We are so excited to have you here today.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Hi friends.

• 2:29Adrienne Cheatham?

  You are one of our favorite people in the food industry.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  Likewise, I was like, wait, Joe and Adrian have a podcast now? I was like, what is, what is happening? Like worlds colliding in the greatest of ways.

• 2:42Adrienne Cheatham?

  In the best way. Joe and I are old friends, actually. Every time, we're both from Chicago and we met on Top Chef, but we have become like besties. We're kind of like cousins. So every time I go to Chicago, we're either shutting down a restaurant, a coffee shop, or something. Like there is no trip to Chicago where I don't hang out with Joe.

• 3:03Joe Flamm?

  That's it. I gotta block off like three hours of my schedule. I'm like, oh, AJ's coming to town. Here we go.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Do you know, I noticed, you know, I maybe I've always clocked it, Adrian, but I just didn't realize until you just confirmed that you're from Chicago. I was like, you, you have, you have the voice. You, you have the.

• 3:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, most people say I don't sound like Chicagoan, which kind of pisses me off, but.

• 3:24Joe Flamm?

  She has it. It's like, it comes out. It's like in little bits, but she has like, you know, Adrian's dad's from Mississippi and she went to school at like, you know,

• 3:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  In the south.

• 3:34Joe Flamm?

  Florida Atlantic University.

• 3:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Florida A and M, agricultural and mechanical. Thank you.

• 3:39Joe Flamm?

  You know, somewhere, somewhere where she was on the drum line with Nick Cannon and, um, and,

• 3:46Joe Flamm?

  and so she has like a weird like southern kind of twang thing sometimes where she's not like super Southsidey, but like you hear it come out, especially when she's home or she's talking like other Chicago people. You're like, oh yeah, oh yeah, you're one of us.

• 3:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe is just 24/7.

• 4:01Joe Flamm?

  The bright green relish in your blood.

• 4:03Adrienne Cheatham?

  Squirt peppers. Give me a squirt pepper.

• 4:05Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 4:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  And so it's so funny. I actually, so I knew Kristin like through the industry, but we had never met in person until we were on the same flight going to the Cayman Cookout. And I don't, Joe, I don't know if you remember, but a couple of years ago, like in January, the whole flight system.

• 4:22Joe Flamm?

  You both just flexed on me so hard.

• 4:24Adrienne Cheatham?

  Now shut up.

• 4:26Joe Flamm?

  You know, just classic, you get on a small plane, fly into the Caymans, and you know, who do you run into? But Kristen.

• 4:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, Kristen Kish. She was like my aisle partner.

• 4:35Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was this day of like this massive meltdown at all the airports. So our flight from New York to Miami was delayed by like five hours or something crazy. So we're sitting on the plane like, we're not going to make this connection. Like, hi, I'm Adrian. Hi, Kristen. Like, I know you. Like, I think we're going to the same event, right? And we ran through the frickin' airport in Miami. I'm like all out of breath. I'm huffing and puffing. Kristen's just like on a steady stride.

• 5:04Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I thought I had decent cardio, but that airport fucking put me to the test.

• 5:09Joe Flamm?

  And Kristen's like sneaky, like kinda tall too. So she's got that stride on her.

• 5:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 5:14Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? Where it's like, she, she, she looks, she looks fast.

• 5:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  It was like a gazelle. She was like a gazelle.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  But I remember, Adrian, we were at, we were at the airport and my luggage, like, bad mistake of checking luggage in the first place. But I checked luggage and we were there and like they lost it and.

• 5:31Joe Flamm?

  I, I want to know, like, were you guys sitting on the plane for a while and like doing that thing of like, should I say hi to her? Should I say hi to her?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  It was immediate. No, Adrian.

• 5:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  I waited until everybody finished boarding and I was like, hi.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Yes. But we, we weren't, it like, we weren't in the air being like, should we say something? Like, we said something. We acknowledged each other, from what I remember.

• 5:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  How did you first meet Kristen and Joe?

• 5:53Joe Flamm?

  I think we met filming Top Chef, right? The first time, I believe it was.

• 5:58Speaker 02

  When?

• 5:59Joe Flamm?

  Is that possible? That it was doing an episode of Top Chef?

• 6:02Speaker 02

  You guys were season fifteen, yes?

• 6:03Joe Flamm?

  No, I know, but you weren't on my season. I'm saying when you took over as judge, jury and executioner.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yes. Is that when we first met? No, fucking way. I had been to your restaurant. No, I'd been to your restaurant, Joe. Remember?

• 6:16Joe Flamm?

  Oh, you came to my restaurant? Yeah. You came to my restaurant before that. You were there with your family. I believe you were there with your parents, your brother, um, and your wife. And you were like, hey, I'm in Chicago. Um, could I come? And I think that might've been the first time we met there.

• 6:30Speaker 02

  But it feels like, you know, like, our weird, our weird little Top Chef universe is like, I've seen you guys on television. So, you know, naturally I know you so well.

• 6:41Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  When I see, it's like you, you're seeing each other and you're like, have we met before? I'm not really sure. Because I feel like.

• 6:47Joe Flamm?

  Right. In my mind, I'm like, that can't be what we actually.

• 6:49Speaker 02

  Instagram friends even before meeting in real life.

• 6:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 6:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  And there's some people that just have like that cool as hell vibe. Like I immediately knew Joe before I knew him. I was like, okay, we're gonna be cool. And like you have that kinda like, like, most chefs are kinda weirdos. We're kinda weirdos, we're kinda quirky. And I think like those are the best people and you get that vibe off people. And when I saw Kristen on the plane, I was like, oh, we're already good.

• 7:17Joe Flamm?

  Well, and I think like for me, it's like when I meet, you know, like meeting chefs like Kristen, like Kristen, you're so, you're so like, you know, all like the pictures of you and your chef whites are so pressed. And like Adrian's the same way. Like you both have that like very fine dining. Like, you know, I organized my spoons before I left for work today. Like, you know, just like super, super tight. And I'm always like, I always get very intimidated meeting chefs like that. Cause I'm like, I am like a rolling disaster.

• 7:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  No.

• 7:47Joe Flamm?

  Just coming in hot.

• 7:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Not at all.

• 7:49Joe Flamm?

  Like super loud and just, you know, coming in and I'm like, they're just gonna like not want this.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  No, we, we want that. And you're very much pulled together, by the way. You like, I've seen how you run your kitchens and your restaurants. And if that's any indication of who you are as a chef and as a leader, like you're very much pulled together, Joe Flamm.

• 8:08Joe Flamm?

  Well, thank you. But it's a, it's a, it's a very like loud, chaotic thing that I really like. And then I'm always worried when I meet like, you know, cause like seemingly it's like, I'm like, oh man, like, you know, this like Kristen Kish is gonna be like so like tight about everything. And it's like, you're one of like the biggest goofiest weirdos I've ever met. And I'd be that the kindest way possible. And it was like, so evident from the first time when we filmed Top Chef together, when you took over, I think it was the Milwaukee season.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:35Joe Flamm?

  Where we, we had to eat all the.

• 8:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Mealy wake.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  Oh, oh, mealy wake, yes.

• 8:39Joe Flamm?

  We, we, we ate all the hops and I got Adrian, we ate 15 dishes of people had to cook with hops.

• 8:45Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, not good.

• 8:46Joe Flamm?

  I got so sick afterward.

• 8:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  Was the resin like coating your mouth?

• 8:50Joe Flamm?

  It was, it was like, it was like when I was like 15 and I had hidden some weed in my room. And then like my parents found like the bowl I was smoking weed in. So I had to get rid of the weed. So I just ate all the weed raw.

• 9:00Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, God, Joe.

• 9:01Joe Flamm?

  Like, that's what it like took me back to. It was disgusting. Like it, I was like so sick the next day when we had to fill the elimination challenge. I'm like pounding Pepto Bismol. Cause I'm like, all I do not like, this is like. I can't like shit my pants at judges. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this will be a horrible episode for me. They will not invite me back. Or I'll be invited back as like a horrible reminder of this.

• 9:26Joe Flamm?

  But, you know, when I first, you know, met Kristin and just like filmed with her, it was so fun. It was so light. And, you know, you know, Kristi, you're so genuine and that's what I appreciate. You have such a great, natural vulnerability about you of like, oh, like, you know, you were like, oh, I'm kind of like nervous, but I'm excited. And it's like, okay, cool. I feel that way too. And I think like your openness about it made it so fun to film with you. Because it's like, oh yeah, like this isn't really what we do. Like, we spent our whole lives learning how to do something else. And then they're like, hey, go be good at this thing that you weren't ever supposed to do at all.

• 9:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Correct.

• 9:59Joe Flamm?

  And you're like, oh yeah, no, like, I'll just be like a TV host now? Like, I'm gonna like run a TV show? Like, you know what I mean? And that's what you're doing. And you've just like floated to it naturally. And I don't think people realize how like absolutely completely insane that is.

• 10:13Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, that takes a special skill set to be able to go from one world that's completely different to another. And that actually kind of brings us to our first segment. So a few years ago, I judged with San Pellegrino, the Young Chefs Academy. And that is all about mentorship. And the person who won in New York was, uh, Daniel Garwood. He was in CDC at AtomX and JP was his mentor. And, you know, it was like a really cool moment to see him coaching him through this kind of competition because Daniel's like, I've never cooked in a competition before. Like, this is weird. This is a different format. And so like to see JP kind of like coaching him through that at the Young Chefs Academy was really cool. Who was a mentor that kind of coached you?

• 10:57Adrienne Cheatham?

  Did you have anybody to help you with that transition?

• 11:00Speaker 02

  Well, I, it's, it's hard to pinpoint when it first started because I think as chefs, we develop our personalities like long before we even know we want to become a chef. Like, it's almost like which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are we the kind of people that could be chefs? Or are we the people that turned into it because we had to learn all along the way? And I think we naturally have, of course, this interest in cooking. We all kind of loved the idea of it. But then because it is such a specific skill set, not the cooking part, but the personality portion of it all. We're a little like awkward. Uh, we like things organized. It's slightly type A in a lot of different ways, like, and I feel like I naturally.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  Already was that kid of like, structure and organization. And then I found cooking and I was like, okay, well, now these two things are merging together. And I'm a better cook because I'm already this kind of weirdo kid. So all through culinary school, watching television shows, watching Emerald. And I grew up watching Food Network and Rachael Ray. And I would watch these people and they would just kind of flow and move. And that's when I learned how to move in a kitchen, I think, I think, because everything was staged and organized, where there was no wasted movements at all. So I think it probably started with television. And then from there, obviously mentors and culinary instructors, some of which I learned what I did not want to be. One of them was so terrifying.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  He, I had my, I took sauces class, I forget his name, but he was so scary. And I was like, I don't ever want to be this scary. Like, there's something like, I wasn't learning and it's the only class I got to see. And I think not because I wasn't good at it, but because I was scared shitless of this guy.

• 12:45Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  And so then you have the guys like McGinnis, who taught you through like this joy of cooking and happiness and no fear or ego at all. And then, you know, of course, all of our chefs that we worked for over the years, they instill a little bit of them. We take what we like, we leave behind what we don't, and we just continue evolving.

• 13:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I love that.

• 13:06Joe Flamm?

  You know, I thought one of the most interesting things in your book too was you're talking about, I can't remember the name of Barbara Litch's restaurant, where you were doing like, the small, like tasty menu cooking demo kind of things for people. Stir, that's what it was. And like the first place I worked at, you know, I worked, there was like a chef's counter up in front. And you know what I mean, at the time was like very novel. So you had to like talk to people while you cook. And I felt like that gave me such an advantage in my career. From like, having early on had to like, kind of break that, you know, that whatever, whatever you want to call it, that fourth wall of like, you know, interacting with the guest, and how it makes us able to connect with our guests and extend the hospitality.

• 13:49Joe Flamm?

  And I think like, just reading about that, it gives such a clear and natural like, oh, this is why you're so good at hosting these shows. You know what I mean? This is why you're so great on TV. Like, this is why, you know, you're such a natural presence on like, Top Chef now, as, you know, as running it. And I think that's like, such a cool connection. Like, it feels so natural, at least watching it. I'm sure you've worked very hard on it.

• 14:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I think it also has to do with like, the type of person that you are. Like, Joe, you're like this in your kitchen. Like, I've heard you talk to your sous chefs. It's like, you're just a genuine person. So if you're comfortable being yourself in all types of settings, then I think the transition to hosting and being on television isn't that strange? Or isn't that odd? Because you're already so comfortable being yourself. And you're not playing a part, you're just maybe hitting some lines. But there's nothing fundamentally about you that's different.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Correct. And I think it's because, like, you know, I think Stir was an incredible exercise in understanding what it felt like to be in front of people. But it took a long time to get comfortable in that role. And I can't say that it took a long time to get comfortable in hosting television, because I think that the projects that I chose to do, like, I'm not taking every opportunity that was presented to me on television. I said no to about 80% of them. And the ones, the 20% that I did say yes to, were the ones that allowed me to be who I am. And so you don't have to think so hard about it. And like, Top Chef, like, Tom put it to me in like, the most perfect way that I could understand on my very first day of filming. He was like, this is what, you do this every day.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  We have conversations about food. We eat, we give critique, we give, we have conversations with chefs. It's exactly like pre meal and like stand up before service. How you address your team. He was like, all you gotta do is talk like that. I was like, huh, you're right. I have been doing this for over two decades.

• 15:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Way to go, Tom, for the win with that advice.

• 15:53Joe Flamm?

  He is.

• 15:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  He dropped gems like throughout the season we were on, he dropped some fricking gems all the time. He was like that kind of quiet strength behind who would just be like, I'm like flailing around like on Top Chef. Cause it's like, I had never cooked my own, I'd already always been working for other chefs. And so when I got there, I had no concept of what it's like, do something meat and potatoes for 500 people. I'm like, I could do anything. Literally you can do anything. So how do you narrow down the scope of what you want to do? And Tom was like, it's just cooking. Like you've been cooking for what 16, 17 years? Like you're just cooking. There's just cameras on you. Yes, it's weird and it's different and it's a new kitchen.

• 16:33Adrienne Cheatham?

  But like, you're still just cooking food. Like just make it taste good. It was like, oh yeah, that's a good point.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. You, you kind of forget when you're in a new space and like television is a whole different realm. But the beauty of Top Chef and the people that are on it, Tom, Gail, and all the guests that roll through is that we're all filming a TV show, but we're all people that genuinely love and want to see the success of the people competing. So like, there are no tricks. There are, there are challenges, but nothing is, you know, we're not getting mystery baskets with like, um, you know, stuff just to trip us up. Like it is actually there to help push you.

• 17:12Joe Flamm?

  A bag of Jolly Ranchers, like a tin of long cut Copenhagen and like a flank steak. Go.

• 17:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 17:18Joe Flamm?

  It's like, what are we, what are we doing here?

• 17:20Adrienne Cheatham?

  Tom stuffed me and Joe one night with a whole lobe of foie gras. It was like right before the finale.

• 17:25Joe Flamm?

  Oh yeah, he cooked us dinner.

• 17:27Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, he cooked this dinner up in the hotel room.

• 17:29Joe Flamm?

  Him and Graham Elliott.

• 17:30Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. It was so awesome. And like, I was so, there's, we have a picture of me and Joe laying on the couch because we were literally like, we have to eat everything on this table. We're laying on the couch like both about to vomit because we were so full. We literally housed everything they cooked.

• 17:45Joe Flamm?

  I remember the next day, I was just like me and Adrian were in the kitchen like prepping for finale. And I'm like, I'm just sweating foie gras.

• 17:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 17:51Joe Flamm?

  Like I'm just like feel it dripping out of me. She's like, I'm gonna die. And we're, we're cooking at altitude too, you know, we're at the top of.

• 17:59Adrienne Cheatham?

  It still smells like foie gras.

• 18:01Joe Flamm?

  We're at the top of Aspen Mountain, just dripping foie gras fat out of our pores.

• 18:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  We have a segment that we call review review.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  And this is where there are, sorry, some things should not be so democratized and reviewing.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  You know, it leads for high entertainment. Like, once you can get past like the, oh, my God, I can't believe people talked about me or my food or my team or my business like this. Like, you know, you can only laugh at it.

• 18:32Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. So Joe, Joe, do you want to break down review, review?

• 18:35Joe Flamm?

  Review, review is kind of our, our, our, our happy time where we get to clap back at one star reviews on the internet from our businesses, our friends' businesses. Any ones we can find, because it's just, you know, now like three restaurants. So it's like, I get three times the ridiculous reviews as much as I'd love to say I'm better than it. I can tell you the first thing I do every morning is I open the reviews and if there's a bad one, I read that one. If they're all five stars, I don't even read them. Email and I keep moving on with my day because I'm a very broken individual.

• 19:07Joe Flamm?

  So we have this little one where we like to bring up one star reviews, read them and react to them in the way we don't normally get to. Because it's like, we can't just spend all day commenting on reviews and fighting with people in the comments because it would be absolutely insane.

• 19:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. Don't, don't go down that wormhole.

• 19:25Joe Flamm?

  So we always like to bring, bring, bring ones from our businesses, but also since you're a guest this week, we thought we'd give you a fun one from yours and give you the chance to respond. I think, I think AG's got one for you lined up.

• 19:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  I do. So there, I don't know, some like every chef friend of mine, like my friends send them to like, can you believe this? So if there's one that you have that you want to read, cool, but I have one that I thought was pretty ridiculous.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 19:51Adrienne Cheatham?

  Let's do it. Okay. So this one is about the Arlo Gray in Austin, Texas, which is your restaurant there. Beautiful restaurant. By the way, I've met your CDC. He's cool as hell. I've had his food. I've had your food. All amazing. So I was like, y'all have one star reviews. Okay. I have to get to the bottom.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  So many, so many. Okay. Yeah. Go.

• 20:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Well, okay. So this one really, really struck me in a, in a special way. So this one says, one star.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  Pretty place. Told to eat within an hour and a half because it was a booked night. We had reservations.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Okay. I have a hard time believing they were told. I think maybe they were hitting their um their reservation time because in, okay, for those that don't know, in reservations and restaurants, because we're a business and we rely on multiple people to come in, you can't just camp out at a table and we're gonna do our best to put you somewhere else if you're like past your reservation time. I have a feeling it was a two top because it's an hour and a half. Um, and maybe it was just a little reminder of like, hey, maybe they were hitting like two hours or two and a half hours being like, listen, we kind of need that table. It was a busy night. What's wrong with people?

• 21:06Adrienne Cheatham?

  And that's, that's what blows my mind. Like, nothing about the food, nothing about the service, nothing about the tangible actual restaurant. Like, I don't care about, if I'm reading a review on a restaurant when I'm visiting a city, like, this is the stuff that I don't care about. Tell me how the food was.

• 21:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  So like, you're pissed off and every restaurant has a 90 minute, that's just par for the course.

• 21:27Joe Flamm?

  Also, put it, put it in any other context. Imagine in this, you go to a movie, right? And you go, you see the movie, it's an hour and a half runtime. And at the end of the movie, they ask you to leave because there's another movie starting.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  The ones that get me, the ones that I really, that I just, I want to reply back to, but I can't, like, we have to be the bigger person, rise above, are the ones, like, those ones are so ridiculous that I'm like, I don't even want to fight with stupid. You know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna let you go.

• 21:58Joe Flamm?

  Right.

• 21:58Speaker 02

  The ones that give critique on food, but then describe the food wrong. All that, I read one recent, all that lamb, it wasn't good at all. I said, we have never had lamb on my menu because I hate lamb.

• 22:09Joe Flamm?

  I love that.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Never, there's, there is no lamb on the menu. And how you described the dish, that is not, that's not exactly what you had. So now I can't trust anything that you've ever said.

• 22:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  That is insane.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Not my food.

• 22:22Joe Flamm?

  All right, I feel like, I feel like we can roll on this all day.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, we could.

• 22:25Joe Flamm?

  And I would actually love to talk to you about this all day, Kish, because

• 22:28Adrienne Cheatham?

  We'll take that offline.

• 22:29Joe Flamm?

  I love a fired up Kristen, Kish. This is getting me going. But we, we, we gotta keep it rolling. So we're gonna get into our next thing, uh, which is, which is kind of like our, our line check segment, where we just talk about kind of what's going on in the industry right now, newer things that are coming up.

• 22:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  So this is something that is near and dear to my heart as a true Chicagoan. And there's different perspectives on everything, but I thought the reopening and the pop ups they're doing at Charlie Trotters is really special. My mom used to work for Charlie Trotter back in the day. She was a food rep, and this was in like the eighties, nineties in Chicago, where to get anything, you pretty much had to go through craft. So you had to go to get your sanny buckets, to get your dish supplies, all the way up to like greens. And so if a restaurant was shorted, my mom would do these things called hot runs. So my sister and I are in the car with her, we're like seven and eight years old,

• 23:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  and we're like standing in the back door of Charlie Trotters while he's like absolutely annihilating people on the line. So she would hate to take us, because back then, his restaurant was in a really bad neighborhood. So she couldn't leave us in the car, because my sister would like hold the baseball bat and like try to protect me if anybody was walking by. So she got to the point, she was like, okay, I'll take you guys to the back door, but you cannot step foot in this kitchen, stay right in the door frame. So we're standing there like in the doorway of Charlie Trotters. And that was like my first introduction to like a chef's restaurant. And then as I got older, I went to Charlie Trotters twice in one week. One time, when La Bernadette had closed for renovations, and I went home to Chicago to spend like a month at home.

• 24:08Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I had a coworker at La Bernadette who'd come from Trotters. So I went twice in one week and had a completely different meal each time. And it wound up being not long before they closed. And it was such a beautiful experience. Such a special place and it just sat for so long. And so the chef that's doing the first pop up there is Grant Aketz.

• 24:31Joe Flamm?

  And what I was curious like, cause you know, I think like you were in Chicago, kind of of like that Trotters heyday, like towards the end of it. And like, I wondered if you ever had that experience there, one, if you ever ate there, stashed there, or, you know, I'm sure you crossed paths with those people, because especially you said you were hanging out late night at a Bajans. I know that girl was rolling through there, rolling through there for some late night fries at escargot.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Um, I'd never, no, so I'd never been, of course, when I moved to Chicago, you have like the top of the chefs that you're like, oh, my gosh, and you know, they're in the city. But I don't know if I never had won the money or the confidence to put myself in the same space as a lot of those guys, which is a problem in and of itself, which, you know, where the industry is shifting. But I never felt welcome and a lot of it, I think, was probably my own insecurity. So I wish I had gotten to eat in there. I truly wish I could have.

• 25:24Joe Flamm?

  I think they built a fortress of people not feeling welcome. I don't think, I mean, some of that I'm sure, I, I felt the same way. But I think that was by design, too.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  That's how it used to be. Yeah.

• 25:34Joe Flamm?

  Yeah.

• 25:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I, I tried to apply there for my internship out of culinary school and it was crickets. I'm like, my mom used to work here. I mailed letters. I faxed. I phone called. I was in New York, so I couldn't just show up. But when I did go to Chicago, I tried showing up and they're like, oh, send your resume. I'm like, I've been sending my resume for two months.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Two solid months.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  And I think it's like, you know, we all can't have these jobs and these opportunities, sure, but like, just reply. Just say, you know what? Thanks, but no thanks. All that to be said, though, when I was in Chicago, I was very much more into partying than I was actually working and building a true, true big future. Um, and so I, I never. I never went. I never, I don't think I've ever like met anyone that worked there while I was still there because I was also running around with just a different crew. There's a lot of places that are so iconic for so many different reasons that really, you know, laid a lot of groundwork for our industry. Um, that I have yet to go to and that I've never been to that maybe perhaps I will never go to because now I'm just, you know, going to different places.

• 26:39Adrienne Cheatham?

  But it's what I find most interesting also about the pop ups is there are a lot of chefs who came out of Charlie Trotters who worked there for a long time. I remember reading Grant Attket's book, Life on the Line. Did he work at Trotters or did he just stage there?

• 26:54Joe Flamm?

  I think he just staged there and it was like a whole thing. And that's like the weird thing, you know, he staged there and then he went up to Trio at Evanston and that's where he met Kekonas. And Trio was a legendary restaurant and that's where Sean McLean was before he opened all his restaurants. Rick Tramano ran Trio up there before he opened True. My, my kind of bigger question for you, Chris, it is like, you know, like you see this happen at restaurants some time to time, but it's like in all culture, right? Where it's like the relaunch of something old. And you know, like, you know, do you feel like it's something where it's like it could still hit? Or like, you know what I mean? We should let these things go. Like I go back and forth.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  I thi- I think it's because it's Charlie's son. Um, and he's kind of like the newer generation of what his dad was like. If there's anything, you know, chef, restaurant industry, whatever, I think that the legacy that we carry is our family and the people that raised us. And that, you know, gave us life and all the different things. And if that's how he's going to honor his dad and his dad's legacy, then it's a beautiful thing. Go on with your bad self. Like do what you want to do.

• 27:57Joe Flamm?

  I think that's what it says over the kitchen there is go on with your bad self.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. That is going to be my new neck tattoo. Uh, I think that it's also a reflection of maybe what's happening in this industry. Like things are. You know, hopefully slightly more inclusive. He's doing it differently. He's inviting the grants in. Like, I don't know a lot of that history and the things back and forth there with with those two people. Um, but you know.

• 28:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, girl, watch the Love Charlie documentary on Netflix.

• 28:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Good. And it it touch, it's mainly about Charlie Trotter and his culinary legacy, but it does touch on that a little bit. Um, so it it does, after watching the documentary and then knowing that, I was like, oh, okay. That's a shocker.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  You know what's crazy is that like so many of these like chefs, the Charlie Trotters of the world, like, of course I know them and have heard of them. But I don't like, I wasn't the kid like with in culinary school with these cookbooks of Charlie Trotter, Thomas Keller, Grant Eckert. It's like, I wasn't this kid that just like trying to study everything that they were doing at all. So like, as much as I know, I don't really know a lot about who they are.

• 29:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  It's really cool. He's, I mean, he was such a cool chef, and I think that's maybe like what Dylan is trying to remind people of his legacy. Because he, you know, you weren't hearing a lot from him. Once the, you know, chefs as a celebrity culture were really blowing up. Charlie was kind of stepping away from the kitchen at that point in his life. So I I do feel like he had such an important legacy. He was the first American chef to be doing tasting menus. And vegetarian tasting menus, and this was in like the eighties and nineties.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  He was the one who put the chef's garden on the map because he would drive over to Ohio and work with Farmer Lee and like, get all these cool things and help him develop his farm to be able to supply what Trotter wanted. Um, so he was just doing really cool stuff and he was.

• 29:47Joe Flamm?

  So doing like the most wild boy crazy shit too.

• 29:52Joe Flamm?

  What I mean, and I just know this from chefs who I worked for, who worked for him for a long time. Like, if he picked up your knife and it wasn't sharp, he'd throw it in the garbage can and be like, if you take it out, you're fired.

• 30:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:02Joe Flamm?

  The dude was like, you know, the stories you hear, you're like, oh, that's like the embodiments of the intrusive thoughts that you're just like, no one would actually do that, right? He's like, yeah, oh, yeah, hold my fucking cappuccino.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  I had this idea, like when I was working at um at Montant, super, super fine dining. I in the book, I talk about what a horrid experience it was. Um, but I always had this thing in my head when I was so angry being there. I was like, I know how I'm gonna quit like I I'm, we had this like stunning kitchen with this big glass chef's table thing. And like, we had all these beautiful little fucking pots to like, you know, and I had every envision, like I imagined myself doing it. I was gonna take one of those pots, go stand across the kitchen, fling it across, shatter the chef's window and be like, fuck you, I'm out. Um, you know, I I didn't do that, which is a good thing, but like, doesn't mean that you didn't think about it.

• 30:58Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right. The intrusive thought was there.

• 31:01Joe Flamm?

  I think the the like romanticized quitting fantasies are some of the most passionate fantasies that chefs have of like, you know, they're like so detailed. You know what I mean? There could be a romance novel of quitting chefs, you know, like

• 31:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, vignettes, the little short stories.

• 31:16Joe Flamm?

  The room, it shatters and I ride out on my white stallion. This is the last time you'll ever see Kristin Kish.

• 31:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  The next segment, Kristin, that we love to do is called Fork It or Forget It. This is where Joe and I kind of talk about something that we've seen either on social media or God forbid, in a major publication, that's just to us wild. Like, why would you do this? But some of them turn out to be kind of interesting. Um, so we decide and we are judge, jury, executioner. We decide the fate of this trend and if we will ever try it.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:52Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so my fork it or forget it. And Kristin, I really want to know what your thoughts on this are too. We are the jury today. Is this thing I've seen raspberry espresso?

• 32:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  Where people's position three.

• 32:08Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I just saw this the other day.

• 32:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, put three raspberries in the espresso cup, like not cup, like the the damper.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:16Joe Flamm?

  They put it in the damper.

• 32:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  And then.

• 32:18Joe Flamm?

  Espresso over.

• 32:18Adrienne Cheatham?

  Put the espresso grinds in it.

• 32:20Joe Flamm?

  And they make a raspberry flavored espresso.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  My first question is, does that fuck up the machine?

• 32:26Joe Flamm?

  According to the people who make the machine, because I weirdly went down like, not weirdly, this is me. Uh, I went down, I read like forty seven comments on this post that I saw this company that posted this. And everybody's like, dude, you're gonna fuck up the machine. They're like, no, we're not. We make espresso machines. It's not gonna fuck it up. But like, it's gotta fuck it up.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  So here's the thing, outside if if it does not fuck up the machine. Because I'm not about, you know, doing, you you don't want to do that.

• 32:53Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 32:53Joe Flamm?

  You're not about vandalism.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  All all I have to think is, like, I've had coffee flavored, like, um, raspberry or berry flavored coffee. I'm not a flavored coffee person. But at the end of the day, if you have a fresh raspberry and you're making a better flavored raspberry something. If that's your jam, fucking let it roll. Like, make yourself, make yourself happy. Personally, I'm not doing it.

• 33:17Adrienne Cheatham?

  No, I'm, I was, I was aboard when I saw this. I could not believe it. I'm like, who would defile coffee in such a way like I? I'm, I don't know. I like my coffee black because I actually like coffee. I don't put anything in it. It's like, why adulterate it? It's okay if it's too strong. Put a like Scotch, put a splash of water in it or something like that. Open up the flavors. Do whatever you gotta do, but like. I milk cream flavored, if like at that point, it's not coffee. If you want it to taste like something else, you don't like coffee. So just drink something else.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Drink a raspberry Celsius.

• 33:51Joe Flamm?

  It feels like one of those things that like you see somebody do at work where they're like, oh, hey chef, try this. I put raspberries in the espresso. And you're like, oh, okay. And then you walk away and you like go to your GM and you're like. Who the fuck hired them? You know, like, you know what I mean? You're like, why are they like messing with my espresso machine right now? Like, what are we doing? Like, is there literally nothing else to do today?

• 34:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 34:11Joe Flamm?

  Like, you know what I mean? Like, like. It just to me is like.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  Like, when you have, so like, I'm, I'm a purist, black coffee only. I don't, I don't do all the, all the things. But like in the middle of the afternoon, if I imagine having like a raspberry shortbread cookie with my black coffee, now we're playing in a flavor profile that feels like dessert. I can't do that in the morning. It's like a treat in the middle of the afternoon. So do, wait, hold on. My, I, I have, we have to back up because I have, I need some clarifying questions. We could stay on this topic forever. Um, the people that are doing this, is it like a range of all different kind of people? Or is it like specific? Like, is it like the young kids?

• 34:56Joe Flamm?

  I've only seen it on one thing and it was like on a coffee espresso makers page. And I was like, why is this in my feed? Why did they like trying to make me angry today? I don't understand. And it's like, my issue with it, it's like, I agree with you, Kristen. Yes, a raspberry cookie situation with an espresso is great. You know what else is great with an espresso is like a cigarette. I don't want you to mash a cigarette into the special grounds, rip the caffeine through it.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:31Speaker 02

  I just, all I can imagine are the seeds getting stuck. Like seeds are getting stuck and like, it's not pulling right. And just like, there's extra moisture going into this coffee that's already supposed to be perfectly concentrated how you're making it. Like, oh, to, to each their own, I say.

• 35:49Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah. If your brain is going that deep into questioning it, clearly it should not be done. So I will forget that. I am not going to be trying that at home or don't worry to my mom who has an espresso maker. I'm not going to do that at your house.

• 36:01Joe Flamm?

  I'm not saying you should go to jail. I'm just saying, don't do that to my espresso machine. I will be very upset.

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 36:09Joe Flamm?

  So our last thing we do, it's called the walk-in confession. We're talking about just how the walk-in is like the greatest source of information truly in a restaurant. If you really want to know what's going on, you know, it's the one place you can go where it's like soundproof, where it's like, if you've really got some shit to say to somebody, it's like, that's the spot, right? You know, you go to that walk and you say it, you know, you can, you know, be as real as you want there. You can cry in there. You can yell in there. You can scream in there. Like the walk-in keeps all secrets. You know, the wall, the walk-in, you know what I mean? Tells, tells no truths of, of, of the pains before. It's the ultimate place in my mind where if the walls can talk, you know what I mean? We'd all be in a lot of trouble.

• 36:47Joe Flamm?

  But so, we always hear just like, to try to share a story of like, one of those behind the scene things. Either it was a time of like, you know, when you're coming up where it's like, things went completely sideways, and you got through it somehow, or you didn't get through it, or um, things you saw, like ultimate hack moments that you were just like, oh man, I can't believe, you know, we had that day and we, we, we lived that life. Uh, or just stories, you know, we kind of share with each other that we just kind of haven't brought to light before, um, in, in this regard. Gosh, that's a, that's a hard one. Um. I could let age go first. Yeah.

• 37:25Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, I'll, I'll hop in first. So, um, I was first time on the hot apps line. I had been on garde maje, I had worked cold stations, dessert. I, I started my career in pastry, so this was my first time like, on a proper hotline in a restaurant. And the second course line was responsible for putting on the stocks and the jus and everything to reduce for the entree line and the saucier. So, I didn't know this, so I get in, I'm lifting these big stock pots with my like, line mates, and I could fit in these pots. They were massive. They would hold like, sixty pounds of chicken legs and chicken cages for stock. Um, so I'm lifting

• 38:07Adrienne Cheatham?

  these pots, put this pot of foie gras fat that had to boil, and kind of put the big stock pots in front of it, and I thought the saucier was keeping an eye on the foie fat, but it was, it was, it was, it was theirs, but it was on my station. And I was looking at the big stock pots, I didn't realize the foie fat was in the smaller stock pot nestled between these two giant ones. And shortly before service started, there was just a column of black smoke coming up from the back of the burners. And it was just the

• 38:47Adrienne Cheatham?

  most acrid, disgusting smell. I was like, everybody in the kitchen's like, what is that? I'm like, oh shit.

• 38:56Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh shit. That's that foie gras fat. Oh my God. And it was like, I don't know what it is. And I was like, I looked at the saucier. I was like, didn't you pull the foie gras fat over to your side through like the, you know, through the brigade, there was like a, an opening to get to the sauce station. I thought they were pulling it over to their side so they could ladle off the fat for the sauces they needed. I was just like, fuck my life. I should, I should just get my apron and just like leave right now because I'm getting fired.

• 39:28Joe Flamm?

  It's been getting to service too. You know, where like everyone's just gonna hate you all night.

• 39:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep, yeah.

• 39:32Joe Flamm?

  Like every time you walked out, like, oh, you got an extra towel? It's like, no.

• 39:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  The Canapay guy was like getting his first few tables set up. And I'm like, oh God, now we all have, no, I have to, I have to step off the line and ice down this problem. Oh my God. I was mortified. I definitely got called into the office and got written up for that. Cause it was on my station. He was like, yeah, it was the saucier's foie gras fat. Yes, they were supposed to have pulled it over, but it was on your station.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 40:02Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep. I have not talked about that in years.

• 40:06Joe Flamm?

  Sit in that chef's office, just getting, yes chef. No, I understand chef. No, thank you. Thank you.

• 40:11Adrienne Cheatham?

  Thank you for not firing me chef.

• 40:13Joe Flamm?

  I'm, I'm gonna do better tomorrow chef. I won't be sorry. I'll be better. I'll be better chef. Thank you chef. I'm, I'm gonna go clean the walk-in.

• 40:22Adrienne Cheatham?

  I cleaned the walk-in for like a week after that. Oh my God.

• 40:26Joe Flamm?

  Um, I'll give you one, and I don't think I've ever told this story. I didn't, I never even told the chef I worked for. I got away with this one. We're like, it was opening night, we were up in a restaurant, or it was like, it was like day one or two of service and we were doing these, uh, pork blade shoulder steaks. Like have you ever seen those where you take pork bone and shoulder, you slice it sideways? And we would smoke them before service at like this crazy Chinese water smoker thing. So I had to smoke like 20 of them. I'm like running around, I'm super the weed. I throw them in the smoker. I don't set a timer and they're only this thick. So you were only supposed to smoke them for like 10 minutes.

• 41:03Joe Flamm?

  I forget, I go running back, I open the smoker. They are fucked. I mean, they are beyond well done. They are on the road to jerky. I'd left a bit there for like an hour. And I'm just standing there and I'm just staring at a smoker. Filled with these and I'm just like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. And I'm like panicking and like just standing there and I'm like, I can't tell chef. Like he is gonna flip out. Like this is like my second sous chef job. I'm like, he's gonna send me. This is gonna be it. I'm gonna get fired. Like we're like a weekend, like I'm like, I can't do this. So I just wait till nobody's looking. I go in there, I rip all of them out. I throw them straight in the garbage. I take the garbage bag, I run them out to the dumpster.

• 41:48Joe Flamm?

  We were on, like this place was right off of Lake Street and this is when there were still the butchers there. I sprinted out the back door, threw the bag of the dumpster, ran down the street to a butcher. Bought 20 more pork shoulder steaks with my own money, ran them all the way back, threw them on a quick here, threw them in the smoker. And it was like two minutes before service and he's like, where are those pork steaks? I thought you were smoking them earlier. I'm like, oh, they're just about to come out now. I didn't get a bit on time, chef. I'm so sorry. And you know, like pull them out right before service. He's like, oh, these kind of look weird. I was like, yeah, I don't know. They sent weird ones. I'm gonna talk to them about it tomorrow. I'm gonna make sure they send us the right ones. He's like, you gotta stay on them. And I was like, oh, yes, chef. I'm gonna stay on them. I'm not gonna let them get away with this. And it was just like, one of those, I'm just pouring sweat, just like.

• 42:34Joe Flamm?

  We're good, we're good, guys. Like, like it was unbelievable. I never told another person at the restaurant. No one knew it happened. It was just like one of those things where I was just like, my eyes must have been this big the whole time. Just like, like you did, I'm like, yeah, I'm so good. Why? What'd you hear? What'd you hear?

• 42:48Speaker 02

  I commend you, Joe Flamm. Like, that is a commitment to making sure you don't get in trouble. Like, I think we've all had that moment of like, just fucking fix it right now before anyone knows. Um, I did come up with two. One, um, is, I was, I was young. I was young and you know, like, and no one was asking me to do it as like a hazing thing or to test me or whatever to make me look dumb. I just thought I was doing something smart. And I did mop the, I mopped the freezer.

• 43:19Joe Flamm?

  Oh.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  So that was, that was cool. Um, he's like, well, I guess now we have an ice skating rink. That's awesome.

• 43:30Speaker 02

  Fucking stupid. Like. The initiative like I'm gonna clean this freezer. Yeah. Look at your little crystals down there. Let me mop you up.

• 43:39Joe Flamm?

  Oh, I gotta make sure this water is hot.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yes. Yep. And I, yeah, I made a nice skinny drink. Um, the second one was when I was very, when I was at Montan, already, imagine already feeling disliked and not welcome and you're the boss. So like people that are already gaslighting you and making you feel so like so dumb and make you feel so like unworthy of being in their presence as the boss, set that feeling. And then I'm in charge of making family meal and we have this downstairs prep kitchen and I was making fried chicken thighs. And so I was like doing my dredge and I was doing the thing and I was getting ready for family meal and I load the fryer

• 44:23Speaker 02

  and either it had already too much oil in it or my shit just had way too much moisture. Everyone's prepping and three restaurants use, shared the space. So it was Sportello, Drink and Montan. We're all sharing the space and I'm putting my chicken in the fryer and I start to see it and I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And it just, it just fucking went. It went and it just oil everywhere and I spent the rest basically of all the way half into service, cleaning it up because I did not want to ask for help. And I was so embarrassed. Like it wasn't even like, oopsie, I made a mistake. I was the boss. They already hated me. They already thought I sucked. And then I did that and I was like.

• 45:08Joe Flamm?

  And like that feeling of like, you know, where you're like, everyone is rooting for you to fail.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  Right. Correct.

• 45:14Joe Flamm?

  They are like, you know, I mean, you have the biggest target on your back. I always tell new sous chefs that I'm like, you have the big, I'm like, these people, they might gas you up. They might say this, but I'm like, they will eat your lunch if you leave it unattended.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:26Joe Flamm?

  Like they don't care. They want that spot.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. They want you to fail.

• 45:30Joe Flamm?

  And it's like, the feeling and it's like. Like you describing, like, we've all unfortunately have that feeling, a fryer boiling over, like, I could feel that in my stomach.

• 45:42Joe Flamm?

  Of like, it's like, it makes your toes curl.

• 45:44Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yes.

• 45:44Joe Flamm?

  The worst way of like, you're like, oh, no, this is like.

• 45:48Adrienne Cheatham?

  How many boxes of salt did you have to pour on the oil?

• 45:51Speaker 02

  We used every single thing in the dry, in dry storage. It was horrendous.

• 45:55Adrienne Cheatham?

  And I know that feeling of like, not wanting to ask for help because you're like, no, I got it. I'm fine. I got it.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I made the mess.

• 46:01Adrienne Cheatham?

  Like, I can handle this.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:03Joe Flamm?

  Yeah, I just explained that I ran under the L tracks for three blocks to get pork steaks because I didn't want to tell everyone that.

• 46:09Adrienne Cheatham?

  And spent your own money, like, like, that's, that shit was not cheap.

• 46:12Joe Flamm?

  I was not making very much money at the time.

• 46:14Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 46:14Joe Flamm?

  You know what I mean? It was like, well, okay, I'm almost gonna overdraft my account for this, but I'd rather do that than get absolutely

• 46:19Adrienne Cheatham?

  Right.

• 46:20Joe Flamm?

  eviscerated in front of the whole staff right now to start the day.

• 46:23Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yep.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  We are, chefs are some of the most resilient motherfuckers that have ever been on this planet. Like, we will like, what do they say? Like, you, you bite your own, I don't know, you bite your, something spite your face. I don't know, something.

• 46:36Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, you'll cut off your nose to spite your face. Yep. Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've done that.

• 46:41Adrienne Cheatham?

  That's so real. That's how I was with the foie gras. Like, it was, everybody knew it was my first time on a hotline. I was the only female in the kitchen. Actually, there was another female on the entree line in the AM named Stacia. She was from Boston. Super cool, but they were like, you, you know, you're not tough enough. You're not gonna cut it. You're gonna fail. You're gonna run out of here crying during certain, like, the sous chefs when I first started took bets on how long I would last.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  I hate people sometimes.

• 47:05Adrienne Cheatham?

  I was at the restaurant for like, eight years, but they were taking bets. And so I was like, when that foie gras went up, I was just like, oh, this just validates everything they fricking thought about me.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:16Joe Flamm?

  It was, I worked one job where the chef told me in the interview, he was like, listen, I don't like you. I don't like people who went to your culinary school. I don't like, you know, like, basically told me everything he didn't like about me. He's like, but I know your brother-in-law. He's like, so I'll give you six weeks. He goes, you probably won't make six weeks. And I was like,

• 47:35Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, my God.

• 47:36Joe Flamm?

  Can't wait to start chef.

• 47:38Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 02

  You know, and now because of all those things that happened to us, I think we are more compassionate leaders. I think that we give people the grace, we push them, hold them accountable and have boundaries, but we do not discourage. I think because, you know, we know what that feels like. We can do better.

• 47:54Joe Flamm?

  A hundred percent. You know, and it's like, I had a conversation with Estashi the other day and she was in, I was like, hey, like, I'm like, I told her, I was like, my expectation isn't that you're going to run a station today. My expectation is that you're going to ask questions and like, be a good teammate. That's it. You're here for the day. This is your day. This is your time. Like, I want you to see it. See if this is somewhere you want to be. And if you like it here. I go, my expectation isn't that you should be able to come in and run a station. That's not what you're here for. You're here to come in and learn. And like, because I could just tell, she, she just seemed like really like tight and nervous and like, but it was like, she had like a really good attitude. And it was like, you know, I, I, I felt like it would be a good fit, but like, it's one of those things where it's like, you know, when we came into lines,

• 48:35Joe Flamm?

  they'd be like, oh, you're, you're working at that station today? Like, you're new? And you're like, yeah. They're like, oh, you're, you're fucked.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:41Joe Flamm?

  You're going down. You're going down. We're going to watch. We're going to laugh at you. Don't ask for help. We won't give it.

• 48:46Adrienne Cheatham?

  Yeah, you're on your own. But I, I think that's a great point that it's, it's shaped who we are as, as people. And I think we're all better from it. And I think that we lead better because of it in the, in the times that we have the opportunity to like, shape people. Um, and Kristen, I know you have to hop off, so I'm getting angry text messages. So you gotta go. I gotta.

• 49:09Joe Flamm?

  Thanks so much for your time, Kish. You are the best.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  I love you guys. I, I truly genuinely love that the two of you are doing this. And I feel so happy to have been on it. Like truly, you guys are fucking phenomenal people. I love it. Happy for you guys.

• 49:24Joe Flamm?

  No, thank you so much for doing it.

• 49:26Adrienne Cheatham?

  Joe started reading your book already. I'm, I'm picking up a copy and I'm starting it tonight.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  I'll send you a copy. Don't you worry.

• 49:31Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, I, I already got one. So send me one, but.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  I'll send you another one.

• 49:36Joe Flamm?

  If you, if you sign hers after you didn't sign mine, I will be wildly offended.

• 49:43Adrienne Cheatham?

  Okay, so that is it for this episode of The Chef's Cut. Kristin, thank you so, so much for joining us. We absolutely love you and hanging out and talking with you has been a true blast. Joe, can you remind people where they can find you on social media and restaurants?

• 49:58Joe Flamm?

  You can find me always on social media at Instaflam and in real life at Il Carchofo Rosemary and Boulevard Steakhouse. Thanks again to Kristin Kish, awesome guest, awesome person, great stories. And age, if they got questions for you before next week, where can they find you online?

• 50:15Adrienne Cheatham?

  Oh, so that is Instagram, Chef Adrian Cheatham. And if there's anything in the show that you guys have questions about or want to talk about, please drop a comment, drop a question. We'll be answering anything that you might not have understood, some of the chef lingo or industry talk. If there's any things, we'd love to engage with you guys and answer the questions that you have.

• 50:38Joe Flamm?

  Tell your friends about the podcast. Word of mouth helps us out. Tell them to come listen to me, Adrian, and the friends we have on. Having a great time here. From us, from Kristin, this has been The Chef's Cut. Thanks so much.