Liv Reads Homer: The Odyssey (A Modern Translation!) Books 19

Liv reads Book 19 of Homer's Odyssey, translated by Ian Johnston. It's time for Odysseus and Penelope to have a little chat, before things really kick off. This modern translation is used with immense gratitude to translator Ian Johnston and Vancouver Island University https://johnstoniatexts.x10host.com/homer/odysseytofc.html. Submit questions and prompts for future Odyssey readings at mythsbaby.com/questions http://mythsbaby.com/questions and get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. This is not a standard narrative story episode, it's a reading of an ancient source, audiobook style. For regular episodes look for any that don't have "Liv Reads..." in the title! Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

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• 2:14Liv Albert?

  Hi, hello, welcome. This is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv. And I am back again with another reading episode of The Odyssey. I kind of mentioned this, I think, in Friday's episode, but we had just like a slight shift in plans. Originally, Michaela was going to come back and take over, returning to Herodotus and all her history goodies. But Michaela is in the midst of finishing up her undergrad thesis, which we love for her. And so we just pushed that a little bit. So I, I promised to give you all some reading episodes, which honestly works out for the best because we are so close to finishing

• 2:59Liv Albert?

  this fresh translation of The Odyssey. And it just gives us more time to do that, which I'm pretty excited about. So I am back with another reading episode. And on Friday, we will have another amazing conversation episode. And then next week, Michaela takes over, brings you more history, and then I, in the background, start working on scripts because we are returning to scripted episodes. I am pulling back the old me of the podcast prior. And we are, we're going back to the roots. I mean, not least, I want to keep going on the plays that we began when I covered the Agamemnon, because, oh, that's so good. And I've never really covered the entire Oresteia of Ischylus, which is the trilogy of plays

• 3:44Liv Albert?

  that follows, and the only surviving trilogy that was actually performed as a trilogy. Clearly, we're meant to finish off with that story. But admittedly, I'm kind of weighing between returning to that story and going on with the second play in that series, which is Ischylus's Libation Bearers, or taking a little divergence to Euripides's Hecuba, Hecabe. That's the story of the end of the Trojan War and apparently a bit of a revenge drama. I haven't actually read it yet. Shock, I know. So anyway, I don't know. If you guys have thoughts, let me know. I feel like reasonably, I should probably do the Ischylus next. I'm

• 4:23Liv Albert?

  just kind of inspired by the Hecuba. Tell me if you have thoughts. Otherwise, we're just, we're coming back with, with just more mythology goodies. Oh, also, the shop is officially open. I will be making a more official announcement on the newsletter that technically exists. But the Mythbaby shop is finally open after like a year of me, well over a year. Oh, God, this has been so long in the making. It was really good timing when I decided I wanted to start a merch shop and do it all myself. And I ordered a bunch of merch and then Trump created all those tariffs. And then I've just been sitting on that merch for all that time. But we figured it out. The most affordable option are buying stickers

• 5:08Liv Albert?

  because I can send them via letter mail. And I do have the Signed Odyssey book plate available. So if you want to turn your copy of my Odyssey into a signed copy of The Odyssey, go check that out. It's just mythsbaby.com and find the shop. And more on that soon. For now, we're just going to get right back into The Odyssey because flying off the seat of my, flying off the seat of my pants. It's fine. It's just been a day. It's been a day. And we're returning to Odysseus. And we are getting back into book 19, which means things are getting real wild, getting, we're getting close to all the really over the top violence. You know, the climax, if you will, which just means ladder in Ancient Greek. You're

• 5:52Liv Albert?

  welcome. Just a reminder, Odysseus is back in Ithaca, but it is only Telemachus who knows that he's there. He and Telemachus are plotting and planning on how they're going to handle the suitors. They're working with Eumaeus, the, of course, quintessential loyal, good slave, who, who is a great character, if you put that aside. And while the plans are being schemed, and scheme they will.

• 6:49Liv Albert?

  This is Homer's Odyssey, Book 19, translated by Ian Johnston and used with immense gratitude to the translator and Vancouver Island University, home of one of the world's greatest desserts, Nanaimo bars.

• 7:10Liv Albert?

  So Lord Odysseus remained in the hall behind, thinking of ways he might overcome the suitors with Athena's help. He spoke out immediately to his son. His words had wings. Telemachus, all these war weapons, we must stash inside. And when the suitors notice they're not there and ask you questions, then reassure them using gentle language. I've put them away in a place far from the smoke. Those weapons are no longer like the ones Odysseus left when he set off for Troy so long ago. They've been tarnished. Fires have breathed on them and left their stain. Then too, a god has set great fear inside my heart. You men may drink far too much wine and fight amongst yourselves and wound each other. That would

• 7:55Liv Albert?

  shame the feast and harm your courtship, for iron by itself can draw a man to use it. Odysseus finished. The words his father said convinced Telemachus. He called his nurse, Euroclia, and said to her, Nurse, come here and help me. Keep the women in their rooms so I can put in storage these splendid weapons which were my father's. Since the time he left, when I was a child, no one's looked after them. They've been tarnished by smoky fires. Now I wish to keep them where they cannot be stained by breathing flames. His dear nurse, old Euroclia, then said to him, Yes, my child, may you always think about caring for this house, guarding all its wealth. But come, who will go off and

• 8:39Liv Albert?

  fetch a light and carry it for you if you won't let the servant women, who could bear torches, walk out in front of you? Shrewd Telemachus then answered her and said, The stranger will. I won't let anyone who's touched my food rest idle, not even if he's come here from somewhere far away. Telemachus spoke. She did not answer him. Her words could find no wings. So in that stately hall, she bolted shut the doors. Then both Odysseus and his splendid son jumped up and carried off the helmets, embossed body shields, and pointed spears. Pallas Athena was their guide, holding a golden lamp which cast a lovely light. Then

• 9:19Liv Albert?

  all of a sudden, Telemachus spoke up. Father, what my two eyes are witnessing is an enormous wonder. In this room, the beautiful rafters, the well-built walls, the fur beams and high supporting pillars are glowing in my eyes as if lit up by fire. Some god who holds wide heaven must be inside the hall. Resourceful Odysseus then answered him and said, Keep quiet, check those ideas, and ask no questions. This is how the gods who hold Olympus work. You should go and get some rest. I'll stay here so I can stir the servants even more. And your mother, as she laments, she'll ask for each and every detail.

• 10:03Liv Albert?

  Odysseus finished. Telemachus moved away, striding through the hall below the flaming torches, out into the room where he used to rest when sweet sleep came to him. Then he lay down in bed, waiting for early dawn. Lord Odysseus stayed there, lingering in the hall, thinking how to kill the suitors with Athena's help. Then wise Penelope emerged out of her room, looking like Artemis or golden Aphrodite. Beside the fire where she used to sit, servants placed a chair for her, inlaid with ivory and silver. Imalchus, a craftsman, had made it years ago. He'd fixed a footstool underneath, part of the chair, on which attendants used to throw a large sheep fleece.

• 10:46Liv Albert?

  Here wise Penelope sat, while white-armed servants came from the women's hall and started to remove lavish amounts of food, the tables and the cups high-spirited suitors had used to hold their wine. They threw the embers in the braziers on the floor, then filled them up once more with plenty of fresh wood for warmth and light. But then Melantho, once again, went at Odysseus, chiding him a second time. "Stranger, are you about to pester us in here at this hour and throughout the night, roaming around the house, spying on slaves? Get outside, you wretch, and be satisfied with what you've had to eat, or soon enough you'll have to leave, beaten out with torches."

• 11:28Liv Albert?

  Resourceful Odysseus scowled at her, then said to her, "You're a passionate woman. Why is it you go at me like this, with such anger in your heart? Is it because I'm filthy, have shabby clothing covering my limbs, and beg throughout the district? I have to. Sheer need forces that on me. That is what beggars and vagabonds are like. But once I was wealthy and lived in my own home, in a rich house too, among my people. I often gave gifts to wanderers like me, no matter who they were, or what their needs when they arrived. I had countless servants and many other things that people own when they live well and are considered rich. But then Zeus, son of Cronos, ruined me.

• 12:10Liv Albert?

  That's what he wanted, I suppose, and so, woman, take good care that you too someday do not lose that beauty which now makes you stand out among the woman servants here. Your mistress may lose her temper with you and make things difficult. Or Odysseus may come home, for there's still a shred of hope, even if he's dead and won't come home again, thanks to Apollo he's got, Telemachus, a son just like himself. And no woman in this palace who acts with recklessness escapes his notice. He's a child no more." Odysseus spoke. Wise Penelope heard his words and rebuked Melantho, saying, "You can be sure, you bold and brazen bitch, that I have seen your shameless acts.

• 12:55Liv Albert?

  You'll wipe away the stain with your own head. You clearly know full well, because you heard me say it. I'm planning to ask this stranger in my halls some questions about my husband, since I feel such grief." Penelope paused, then spoke to Eurinemus, her housekeeper, and said, "Eurinemus, fetch a chair over there with a thick fleece, so the stranger can sit down, talk to me, and hear me out. I want to question him." Once Penelope had spoken, Eurinemus quickly brought a polished chair and placed it before her. She threw a sheep fleece over it. Lord Odysseus, who had endured so much hardship, sat down with her. Then wise Penelope began to speak to him. "Stranger, first of all, I'll ask this question.

• 13:40Liv Albert?

  Who are you among men? Where are you from? From what city? And where are your parents?" Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Lady, no man living on boundless earth could find fault with you, and your fame extends right up to spacious heaven, as it does for an excellent king who fears the gods and governs many courageous people, upholding justice. His black earth is rich in barley and in wheat, and his orchards are laden down with fruit. His flocks bear young and never fail, while seas yield up their fish, all this from his fine leadership. With him his people thrive.

• 14:21Liv Albert?

  So here inside your home, question me about anything you wish, except my family or native land, in case you fill my heart with still more grief, as I remember them. For I'm a man who's suffered a great deal, and there's no need for me to sit here weeping my laments in someone else's house. For it's not good to wallow in one's grief and never stop, in case the slaves or you yourself resent it, and say I swim in tears because my mind is now besotted, drenched in too much wine." Wise Penelope then answered him and said, "Stranger, the immortal gods took away the excellence in my poise and body when argives got on board their ships for Troy, and Odysseus went with them, my husband.

• 15:06Liv Albert?

  If he would come and organize my life, my reputation would be even greater, more beautiful as well, but now I grieve. Some god has laid on me a heavy load. All the finest men who rule the islands, Delikium, Samae, wooded Zikynthis, and those who live in sunny Ithaca, these men are courting me against my will, and they are ruining the house. That's why I have no time for suppliants and strangers, or for heralds who do the people's work. Instead, I waste away my heart, longing for Odysseus. They're all keen on marriage, but I tricked them with my weaving. Some god was the first to breathe into my heart the plan, that I should place a huge

• 15:47Liv Albert?

  loom in the halls, and weave a robe of delicate design. So I spoke to them at once. You, young men, my suitors, since Odysseus is dead, you're keen for me to marry. You must wait until I have finished with this garment, so I don't weave this twisted yarn in vain. It's a burial shroud for Lord Laertes, for when the lethal fate of his sad death will seize him, so no Acian woman in the district will get angry with me, that a man who has acquired such great wealth should have to lie in death without a shroud." That's what I said, and their proud hearts agreed. So every day I'd weave at the big loom, but at night, once the torches were set up, I'd unravel it.

• 16:29Liv Albert?

  And so for three years, I tricked Acians into believing me. But as the seasons came, and the months rolled on, and many days passed, the fourth year came. That's when they caught me unraveling yarn, thanks to my slaves, those ungrateful women. The suitors all shouted speeches at me, and against my will, forced me to complete that piece of weaving. And now I can't escape, the marriage, or invent some other scheme. My parents are urging me to marry, and my son is worried about those men eating his livelihood. He notices, because he's now a man, quite capable of caring for a household, to which Zeus has granted fame. But tell me of your house, the race you come from, for you did not spring up from an oak

• 17:13Liv Albert?

  tree in some ancient tale, or from a stone." Odysseus, a man of many schemes, then answered her and said, "Noble lady, wife of Odysseus, Laertes's son, will you never cease from asking questions about my family? All right, I'll tell you, but you'll be giving me more miseries than those which grip my heart, as is the rule, when a man's been absent from his homeland as long as I have, wandering around through many towns of mortal men, suffering great distress. Still, I'll answer what you ask, the questions you have posed. There's a place in the middle of the wine-dark sea called Crete, a fertile land surrounded by the sea.

• 17:56Liv Albert?

  Many men live there, more than one can count, in ninety cities. The dialects they speak are all mixed up. There are Acians there, as well as stout-hearted native Cretans, Caidonians, three groups of Dorian's, and noble Pelasgians. Their cities include great Knosos, where King Minos reigned, after he'd talked with Zeus for nine full years, the father of my father, Deucalion, who in turn sired Idomeneus and me. Idomeneus went away to Troy, in his beaked ships with Atrius's sons. My name's well-known, Ethon, the younger son. Idomeneus, my elder brother, was a finer man. I saw Odysseus there, and gave him welcoming gifts. The wind's force brought him on to Crete.

• 18:41Liv Albert?

  As he was sailing on, headed for Troy, it drove him off his course, past Mallea. He'd moored at Amnisus, where the cavern of Ilithia lies, in a dangerous harbor, fleeing the storm, but only just. He went immediately to the town, seeking Idomeneus, saying he was his loved and honored friend. But by this time, nine or ten days had passed, since Idomeneus and his beaked ships had left for Troy. So I invited him into my house, and entertained him well, with a warm welcome, using the rich store of goods inside my home. For the other comrades, who followed him, I gathered up and gave out barley from the public stores, gleaming wine, and cattle for sacrifice, enough to satisfy their hearts.

• 19:25Liv Albert?

  Those men, Acian lords, remained there for twelve days. The howling north wind kept them in that place. He would not even let them stand up straight, some angry deity had stirred him up. But on the thirteenth day, the wind eased off, and they put out to sea." As Odysseus spoke, he made his many falsehoods seem just like the truth. Penelope listened, tears flowing from her eyes. Her flesh melted, just as up on high mountain peaks, snowdrifts melt away beneath west winds' warm thaw, once east wind starts to blow them down, and as they melt, the flowing rivers fill.

• 20:06Liv Albert?

  That's how her lovely cheeks melted then, as she kept weeping for her husband, the man sitting there beside her. Lord Odysseus in his heart felt great pity for his grieving wife, but he held his eyes steady between his eyelids, like horn or iron, and he kept up his deceit and concealed his tears. But then, when Penelope had had enough of her laments and shedding tears, she spoke to him once more, and said, "Now, stranger, I think I'd really like to test you out, to see if you did, in fact, entertain my husband and his fine companions there, in your halls, as you just claimed. So describe the style of clothing he was wearing then, and the kind of man he was,

• 20:51Liv Albert?

  and tell me about his comrades, the ones there with him."

• 20:56Liv Albert?

  Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Lady, it's difficult to tell you this, for any man who's been away so long, it's almost twenty years since he set out and sailed from Crete, but I'll describe for you how my heart pictures him. Lord Odysseus wore a woolen-purple cloak, a double one. The brooch on it was made of gold. It had a pair of clasps and a fine engraving on the front. A dog, held in its fore paws, a dappled fawn, and gripped it as it writhed. Everyone who saw it was astonished at those gold animals. The dog held down the fawn as he throttled it, and the fawn was struggling with its feet, trying to flee. I noticed the tunic on his body, glistening like a dried-out onion skin. It was so soft and shone out

• 21:41Liv Albert?

  like the sun. In fact, many women kept watching him in wonder. And I'll tell you something else. Keep in mind, I don't know if Odysseus dressed in these clothes when he was at home, or whether some comrade gave them to him on his swift ship after he went aboard, or perhaps a stranger did. Odysseus was liked by many men. Few Achaeans could equal him. I gave him gifts myself: a bronze sword, an exquisite purple cloak with a double fold, and a fringed tunic, and I sent him off on his well-benched ship with every honor. In his company, he had a herald, older than himself, but not by much. I'll describe him for you. He looked like this: he had rounded shoulders, a dark skin, and curly hair, and his name

• 22:25Liv Albert?

  was Euribates. Odysseus valued him above all the rest of his companions, for he had a mind that could match his own. As Odysseus spoke, in Penelope he roused desire to weep still more, because she recognized in what Odysseus said signs that he spoke the truth. But then, when she had had enough of tearful grief, she answered him and said these words: "Stranger, though I pitied you before, in my home you'll now find genuine welcome and respect. I was the one who put him in those clothes you talk about. I brought them from the room, smoothed them out, and pinned on the shining brooch, to be an ornament

• 23:06Liv Albert?

  for him. But now I'll not be welcoming him here again, when he returns to his dear native land." Odysseus set off with an evil fate to catch a glimpse of wicked Ileone, a place that we should never speak about. Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Wife of Odysseus, Laertes's son, don't mar your lovely skin or waste your heart by weeping for your husband anymore. I don't blame you in the least, for anyone would lament the husband she had married and then lost, once she'd had loving sex, and to whom she'd bore a child, even if he were not Odysseus, who, people say, is just like the gods.

• 23:48Liv Albert?

  But end your crying and listen to my words. I'll speak the truth, hiding nothing. I've already heard about Odysseus's return. He's close by, in the wealthy land of Thesprotians, still alive and bringing much fine treasure with him. He's urging men to give him gifts throughout the land. He lost his loyal crew on the wine-dark sea and his hollow ship as they were sailing from Threnachia. Zeus and Helios were angry with him. His crew had slaughtered Helios's herds, but they all perished in the surging sea. But Odysseus, by clinging to the keel, made it to shore, tossed by the waves on land of the Phaeacians, who by their descent are close relations of the gods. These men honored him with all

• 24:32Liv Albert?

  their hearts, as if he were a god. They gave him many gifts and were eager to bring him home unharmed. Odysseus would have been here long ago, but to his heart it seemed a better plan to visit many lands, collecting wealth. For above all mortal men, Odysseus knows ways to win many advantages. No other man can rival him in this. That's what Phidon, king of Thesprotians, told me. And he swore to me in person, as he poured out libations in his home, the ship was launched and his comrades were prepared to take him back to his dear native soil. But before they left, he sent me away. It happened that a Thesprotan ship was sailing for wheat-rich Delikium. He showed me all the expensive presents Lord

• 25:16Liv Albert?

  Odysseus had assembled, enough to feed ten generations of his family. That's how much was lying in storage there, in that king's house. He told me Odysseus had traveled to Dodona to find out from the towering oak what plans Zeus had for the voyage back to his dear native land, after being away so long. Should he come openly or not? He's nearby and safe, and will be here soon. He won't stay away from his friends in Ithaca much longer. I'll make an oath on that for you. May Zeus be my first-witness, highest and best of the gods, and the hearth of excellent Odysseus, which I have reached. All of these things will happen, just as I describe. In this very month, Odysseus

• 26:00Liv Albert?

  will come, as the moon wanes and the new moon starts to rise."

• 26:06Liv Albert?

  Wise Penelope then answered him and said, "Oh, stranger, I wish what you have said might come about. You'd soon come to recognize my friendship, so many gifts from me that any man who met you would call you truly blessed. But my heart has a sense of what will be. Odysseus won't be coming home again, and you'll not find an escort out of here, because there are no leaders in this house, not the quality of man Odysseus was, if there ever was such a man, to welcome honored strangers and send them on their way. But, you servant-women, wash this stranger and prepare a place to sleep: a bed, cloaks, bright coverlets, so in warmth and comfort he may await the golden throne of dawn. Tomorrow morning, early, give him a bath

• 26:49Liv Albert?

  and rub him down with oil, so he'll be ready to take his seat inside the hall and eat beside Telemachus. Things will not go well for any one of them who injures him and pains his heart. That man will accomplish nothing further here, even though his rage is truly fierce. How will you learn from me, stranger, that I in any way excel among all women for my prudent plans and my intelligence, if you dine here in my halls, dressed in filthy, ragged clothes? Men don't live long, and if a man is harsh and thinks unfeelingly, then everyone lays painful curses on his future life, and when he's dead, they all make fun of him. But if a man is innocent and thinks with no sense of injury, then

• 27:30Liv Albert?

  strangers spread his fame far and wide among all men, and many say, 'He truly is a man.'" Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Honored wife of Odysseus, Laertes's son, I've hated cloaks and shining coverlets since I first left the mountain snows of Crete, when I departed on my long-ord ship. So I'll lie down, as I have done before, through sleepless nights, for I have often lain on filthy bedding, awaiting bright-throned dawn, and having my feet washed brings no delight into my heart. No woman in your house will touch my feet, none of those who serve you in your home, unless there is an old one, who knows true devotion and has

• 28:13Liv Albert?

  suffered in her heart as many pains as I have. I'd not resent it if she touched my feet."

• 28:21Liv Albert?

  Wise Penelope then answered him and said, "Dear stranger, no visitor from far-off lands who's come into my house has ever been as wise as you or more welcome. Your words are all so sensible and kind. I have a woman with an understanding heart. She gave my helpless husband her fine care, the day his mother first gave birth to him. Although she's weak and old, she'll wash your feet. So come now, stand up, wise Euriclia, and bathe a man the same age as your master. Odysseus may have feet and hands like this, for mortal men soon age, when times are bad."

• 29:10Liv Albert?

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• 29:53Liv Albert?

  basics. Like, they have really great things that you can wear with so many other things, just the options are endless. And as the weather gets colder, like all the sweaters in my closet, Quince has everything you need to round out your wardrobe, from warm, responsibly-sourced down jackets, and cozy cashmere scarves and gloves, to beautiful fourteen-karat gold jewelry that adds the perfect finishing touch. And of course, everything at Quince is priced fifty to eighty percent less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you're paying for quality, not brand markup. And if we haven't learned anything in the last ten years, isn't it just getting rid of the middlemen,

• 30:34Liv Albert?

  you know, making things more affordable? So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and three sixty-five day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was me. Let's talk about myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

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• 32:24Liv Albert?

  Oh, nerds, here with a quick break. I actually don't know how much more of this book we have, so we'll see where this break appears in the episode. But I don't have any direct questions to talk about this time. I just am kind of inspired. I mean, I think it's just so fascinating to read this interaction between Penelope and Odysseus. It really just says so much about them and the world and like, the idea that it seems better that Odysseus was like choosing to be away all that time just because he was getting treasure. It's just, it's

• 33:02Liv Albert?

  giving, it's giving typical, typical man. It's just fascinating to me and it's, I now, of course, can't read this without thinking of Nolan's Odyssey for good and bad. I wish I could. But it's just fascinating to me and like, if you've all listened to the conversation that aired on Friday with Charlotte Gregory, you know, I mean, God, it was just all me talking constantly, listening back. It was, ooh. But I just, you know, I understand that like objectively, this is just what a Hollywood movie is, but I just, I just find

• 33:39Liv Albert?

  it so baffling that we, as a culture, can find so little nuance in characters like this. And like, I just, I just don't understand how it seems better in any way to just present this guy as like a good guy who did nothing bad. It's just so odd to me that those are the decisions that just kept, keep getting made over and over and over again. Like, I mean, this is a really good example of the complexity of Odysseus that Nolan was like, no, no, no need for the man to be complex. He must be simple and straightforward and

• 34:21Liv Albert?

  nothing is his fault. Everything just happens to and around him. Like, it's just wild to me that, that it seems like the, you know, quote unquote, more like modern, I guess, take to be like, everything happened to this man. He made no decisions himself. Like, he was a good guy all the time and everything just happened because he tried his best and failed. Like, no, this, this dude, like, you even heard the way that the, you know, narration, the whole American narration like talks about it. He's like, these are his lies and he made them sound really true. Like, now there's just nothing wrong with that? I mean, obviously there is like objectively, like morally, but like, in terms of storytelling,

• 35:04Liv Albert?

  like, it's complex. It's interesting. It conveys a more realistic human relationship to like the world around you, to the people around you. It's just more realistic and it just seems so counterproductive to me for us to continue this idea of like just presenting men as like objectively good, even when the originating stories, which are so grounded in reality and history and culture and like, the quote unquote founding of the West. Like, why is it that the same texts that all these loser supremacists hold on to as being these

• 35:47Liv Albert?

  like foundational texts to the West are simultaneously, they convey too much complexity for the modern West. Like, if we were to convey Odysseus as the morally flawed, complex, complicated man that he objectively is in Homer's Odyssey, that somehow that's like a betrayal to the West. Like, it just, it just doesn't make any sense. And it just keep, but at the same time, I, yeah, I think it's the, I think it's the probable autism, honestly. But because I also just, I mean, again, I don't have any direct questions, so apologies for this like little ramble. If you don't want to hear it, you can go ahead and skip ahead. But I will just say one more thing that's really not about this

• 36:31Liv Albert?

  section, but which just keeps playing in my mind. Especially, you know, the more I keep interacting with, particularly this translation, just purely because it just makes me think of the movie and it just makes me think of how people are reacting to the movie and all this. And I just want to say again, for, for those listening and for those interested in this, you know, do or don't listen. I just want to point out, like, so I've been getting a lot, I've gotten messages and comments from primarily men who are, I want to state, like, this is not me coming for anyone individually. I want to address this

• 37:11Liv Albert?

  mentality because I think it, I think it warrants addressing this like very, very directly. And spoilers, it's still about Helen because the reaction to Helen and the representation of Helen, I think, just holds so much, like actually really important modern cultural relevance. Because we have, so, you know, I'm not going to go in again to, to the decisions that, that Christopher Nolan made. When it comes to Helen, I will just say that, you know, he chose to go with a Helen who is explicitly not the Helen

• 37:52Liv Albert?

  of the Odyssey. That's objectively true. The Helen he chose is of course a Helen who, you know, was seemingly beaten by her husband, scarred by her husband, abused by her husband. They have this like very fractured, very uncomfortable, very triggering, frankly, relationship. And I've had a lot of people write to me in various ways, saying that they understand, they understand why Nolan made those decisions, right? And I, I think there's a really big difference between understanding why Nolan made those decisions

• 38:34Liv Albert?

  and actually justifying those decisions. Like, yeah, there are sources where Helen is not necessarily as happily received when she returns home to Sparta. There are sources, there are versions that might suggest this kind of relationship. They're honestly minimal. Like, I can't really think of any offhand. Generally, the sources have Menelaus like pretty simp before her, like between the Iliad and the Odyssey. And then also, you know, like, say Euripides is Helen or, or anything like that. Like, I can't actually think of any direct sources that convey that. But like, I understand where someone is like, I understand this. Like, yeah, if we want to, you know, believe the surface level of like, okay, they all figured, they thought that they were fighting the war for

• 39:19Liv Albert?

  her, you know, if there's this idea that she went with him, whatever, like this, this guy, this warlord gets his wife back, how is he going to react? Is he going to be kind to her? Like, it is believable that he would beat her. That's not, I'm not saying, when I critique Nolan's choices, I'm not saying that that's not believable. The problem is how believable it is, right? Like, that, yeah, that does seem like the most likely response of a man to this event, is that he would take it out on his wife, he would be violent with her, he would be abusive, regardless of her role in it because she

• 40:01Liv Albert?

  has absolutely no agency under this patriarchal system of ancient Greece, right? Like, yeah, it's believable that a man would be violent. The issue is not the believability. The issue is that that is not what is in Homer's Odyssey and the choice to go with like what is quote unquote believable, when that believability is based on a man's apparently like inherent need to be violent. Like, like, saying that it's believable implies the belief that a

• 40:40Liv Albert?

  man was in his, that it was his right to be abusive to her. Like, to say that that's believable means that you believe that that is what a man is most likely to do. And if a man is most likely to do that, he believes it is his right. Like, if, those things are connected. And so to make that choice in the year 2026, when the past two years alone, let alone everything else, have seen, you know, the acknowledgement that there is like

• 41:17Liv Albert?

  a worldwide cabal of rich men who use their wealth and power to systematically traffic, rape and abuse girls and women. And as we see case after case after case of men working together in various ways to rape their wives, either just themselves or to bring a bunch of other men in to do it, right? There have been multiple investigations this year alone. There's Gisele Pellot. There's, there's, I mean, I know the CBC here in Canada has

• 42:01Liv Albert?

  done an enormous amount of investigation into this. It is an incredibly real problem that men's abuse of women is

• 42:15Liv Albert?

  Considerably more widespread and also accessible and they, we can see that men are teaming up to find ways to abuse women from the absolute horrors that are the Tate Brothers and the manosphere generally down to any old fucking dude who's going on a server and posting photos of the horrible things he did to his wife. So while she was sleeping or drugged or all of these different things and having other men come in and cheer him on and tell him tips for doing it differently. I don't want to say better next time. That's the

• 42:58Liv Albert?

  reality of the world we live in right now. And so to choose to make Helen a, an abused, a terrified woman, when that is not in the text that you are purporting to be putting on screen. That choice is an active choice to contribute to the continuation of this epidemic of violence against women. And on top of that, to then cast a dark skinned black woman who would inherently get an enormous amount of racist vitriol because explicitly

• 43:43Liv Albert?

  because of the character that you, a white man chose her to play. It is at the very best irresponsible and at the worst, it's abuse. Like, that's a choice that he made and he inflicted that on Lupita and this woman had to just deal with it. And on top of all of that, like, it is incredibly important and it is my job as a white woman to remind everyone of this. But it is statistically and factually true,

• 44:21Liv Albert?

  objectively, in every possible way, true, that specifically in North America, but even more specifically in America, where this movie was made, that black women are the first to be abused. They are also the least likely to be taken seriously. They are, without a doubt, the first people harmed by the patriarchy, long before it ever hits people like me, women like me. It is affecting black women. Black women have like the highest mortality rate, like, um, I don't even remember the right words, but like mortality rate in giving

• 45:02Liv Albert?

  birth than like, in the States, more black women die giving birth than like anywhere else. Like, it is an unhinged statistic. It is so irresponsible for Christopher Nolan to do that. And I just want to direct this to everyone who keeps explaining to me that they see why he did it, or that like, this, this, and this reason make it believable. I just want you to look inwardly about like, what makes you feel the need to say that?

• 45:39Liv Albert?

  Because I never said it wasn't believable. I said it was not in Homer and is irresponsible. And anyway, we're going to get back into it now. Um, except I'm just going to point out real quick that if you noticed, uh, shortly before the ad break there, when I was reading and Penelope was talking about her enslaved women and I kind of had to take a beat before using the word women, I need you to know, it's because I changed it from the translation that said hussies. Because that was gross.

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• 48:55Liv Albert?

  Penelope spoke. The old woman clasped her hands across her face and shed warm tears. Then Eurydice spoke out, uttering words of sorrow. Alas for you, my child. There's nothing I can do. Zeus must hate you above all people, though you have a heart that fears the gods. No mortal up to now has given Zeus, who hurls the thunderbolt, so many rich, burned pieces of the thigh, or offered such well-chosen sacrifice, as you have made to him, praying to reach a sleek old age and raise your splendid son. But now, from you alone, he's taken away the day that you'll return. And it may be that women in some strange and distant

• 49:37Liv Albert?

  land make fun of him as well, when he arrives at some famous home, the way these women mock you here, all of them, to stop their slurs, their insults. You won't let them wash your feet. But wise Penelope, Acharius's child, has asked me to do it. And I'm willing. For Penelope's sake, I'll bathe your feet, and for yours, since the heart in me is stirred with sorrow. But come now, listen to me, hear what I say. Many worn-out strangers have come here, but none of them, I tell you, was so like him to look at. Your stature, voice, and feet are all just like Odysseus. Then resourceful Odysseus answered her and said, "Old woman, those who've seen the two of us with their own eyes all say the same. We

• 50:22Liv Albert?

  both look very like each other, as you've seen and mentioned." After these words from Odysseus, the old woman took a bright bowl to wash his feet. She poured in plenty of cold water and added warmer water to it. Odysseus then sat down, some distance from the hearth, and quickly turned around towards the darkness. For suddenly in his heart, he was afraid that, when she touched him, she might see a scar he had, and then the truth would be revealed. When Eurydice began to wash her master, she recognized the scar immediately, a wound he'd suffered years ago from white tusks on a boar, when he went to Parnassus, making a visit to Autolycus, his mother's splendid father and his sons.

• 51:05Liv Albert?

  Autolycus surpassed all others in thievery and swearing. A god himself, Hermes, had given him those skills. For him, he used to burn pleasing offerings, thighs of younger goats and lambs. So Hermes traveled with him, bringing willing gifts. When he traveled to the rich land of Ithaca, Autolycus had met his daughter's newborn son. And once he had eaten dinner, Eurydice set the young child upon his knees and spoke to him. "Autolycus, you're the person who must name your daughter's child. We've been praying now for a long time to have a child like this." So Autolycus then answered her by saying, "My son-in-law and daughter, give the boy

• 51:45Liv Albert?

  whatever name I say, since I've come here as one who's been enraged at many people, men and women, on this all-nourishing earth. Let him be called Odysseus, a man of rage. And I say this when he is fully grown and travels to his mother's family home by Mount Parnassus, where I keep my wealth. I'll give him some of it and send him off. He'll be delighted."

• 52:08Liv Albert?

  Odysseus had travelled there to fetch those splendid presents from Autolycus. When he got there, Autolycus and his splendid sons clasped his hand and welcomed him with real affection. His mother's mother Amphitia embraced him, kissed him on the head, and both his beautiful eyes. Autolycus instructed his distinguished sons to prepare a meal, and they did what he had asked. They hastened to bring in a male ox, five years old, flayed it, and prepared the beast, slicing up the limbs. They cut these with great skill, skewered the meat on spits, roasted them with care, and passed around the portions. All day long they feasted until the sun went down. Each one had a share, and their hearts were quite content.

• 52:53Liv Albert?

  After the sun descended and the world grew dark, they went to bed to rest and took the gift of sleep. But as soon as rose-fingered early dawn appeared, they set off to hunt, with Autolycus's sons and dogs as well, and young Odysseus left with them. They climbed up Mount Parnassus, through the forest there, and quickly reached its windy gullies. By this time, Helios's rays had started to strike the fields, rising from deep streams of gently flowing ocean. The beaters reached a clearing, the dogs went in first, ahead of them following the tracks. Behind them came Autolycus's sons, with Lord Odysseus in their group, close to the dogs. He was holding up his long-shadowed spear.

• 53:37Liv Albert?

  Now, right there, a huge wild boar was lying in a tangled bush. It was so dense, the power of watery winds could not get through. None of Helios's rays could pierce it, and rain would never penetrate. There were fallen leaves in piles around the place, the sound of rustling feet, made by the men and dogs as they pursued the hunt, disturbed the boar. It came charging out from the thicket to confront the hunters, with bristles on its back, eyes flashing fire. The beast stood at bay before them. Odysseus ran up first, eager to strike the boar, his long spear held up in his two powerful fists. The beast jumped out at him, attacking from his flank, and struck above his knee, a long

• 54:21Liv Albert?

  gash in his flesh, sliced by the creature's tusk. It did not reach the bone. Then Odysseus struck back at the boar, hitting on its right shoulder, that long spear's glittering point went straight through. With a grunt, the beast fell in the dust, and its life force flew away. Autolycus's sons attended to the carcass. They neatly bound up brave Odysseus's wound, using a healing spell to staunch the flow of dark blood seeping from his skin. The hunters hurried back to their dear father's home. Once Autolycus and Autolycus's sons had fully cured him and presented lavish gifts, they soon sent him back, in a joyful frame of mind, to Ithaca, his native land.

• 55:06Liv Albert?

  When he got back, his father and honoured mother were delighted, asked him every detail of how he got the wound, and he told them the truth. How, while he was hunting on Mount Parnassus with Autolycus's sons, a white boar's tusk had gored him. That was the scar that old Euriclia was grasping in her hands. She traced it out, recognised it, and dropped his foot. His leg fell in the basin, and the bronze rang out. It tipped over on its side and spilled the water. All at once, joy and sorrow gripped her heart. Her eyes welled up with tears, and her voice was speechless. She reached up to his chin and said, "It's true, dear child, you are Odysseus, and I did not know you, until my hands had touched my master's leg."

• 55:52Liv Albert?

  She spoke, and her eyes glanced over at Penelope, anxious to tell her that her husband had come home. But Penelope could not see her face or notice, for Athena had diverted her attention. Odysseus's arms reached out for Euriclia, with his right hand he grabbed her firmly by the throat, and with the other pulled her even closer to him. Then he said, "My good mother, why this wish to have me slaughtered? You yourself nursed me at this breast of yours. In the twentieth year, after suffering through numerous ordeals, I've come back to my native soil, and now you've recognised me. A god has put that in your heart. Stay silent, so in these halls no one finds out. For I'll tell you something, and it will happen. If gods overcome these haughty suitors, set them at my feet.

• 56:36Liv Albert?

  I will not spare you, though you are my nurse, when I kill other women in my home."

• 56:43Liv Albert?

  Prudent Euriclia then answered him, "My child, what words escape the barrier of your teeth? You know how strong and firm my spirit is. I'll be as tough and as hard as stone or iron. I'll tell you something else. Keep it in mind. If a god does overwhelm these suitors and sets them under you, then I'll tell you about the women in your home, the ones demeaning you, and those who bear no shame." Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Good mother, why speak to me about them? There's no need. I myself will look at them and get to know each one. But keep this news to yourself, leave the matter with the gods." Once Odysseus spoke, the old woman left the room to fetch the water for his feet, since what she had before had been spilled.

• 57:29Liv Albert?

  When she had finished bathing him, she rubbed him with rich oil. Then Odysseus once more pulled his chair closer to the fire to warm himself. He hid the scar beneath his rags. Wise Penelope began to speak. She said, "Stranger, there's one small thing I'll ask you myself. Soon it will be time to take a pleasant rest, and sleep is sweet to every man, even if he's troubled. But gods have given me unmeasured grief. Every day I get my joy from mourning, from laments, as I carry out my work and supervise the servants in the house. But when night comes and sleep grips everyone, I lie in bed, and piercing worries crowd

• 58:11Liv Albert?

  my throbbing heart, and give me great distress, while I mourn." Just as Pandarus's child, the nightingale of the green woods, sings out her lovely song, when early spring arrives, perched in thick foliage of the forest, pouring forth her rich, modulating voice in wailing for her dear child, Itylus, Zethus's son, whom with a sword one day she'd killed unwittingly. That's how my heart moves back and forth in its uncertainty. Should I stay with my son, keeping an eye on all possessions, and my female slaves, and my large and lofty home, honouring my husband's bed, and what the people say, or

• 58:53Liv Albert?

  marry the best of those Achaeans who court me in my halls, the ones who give countless bridal gifts? For my son, while young and with a feeble mind, would not agree I should get married and leave my husband's home. But now he's grown, his youth has reached an end, he's begging me to go back home again, away from here. For he's truly worried about our property, which these Achaeans are using up. But come now, hear my dream and interpret it for me. In this house, twenty geese approach me from the water to eat my wheat, and when I look at them, I am delighted. Then from the mountains a huge, hawk-beaked eagle came and killed them, snapping all their necks. They lay there in piles inside my hall, while he was carried up into a shining sky.

• 59:38Liv Albert?

  Now in that dream, I wept and wailed. Meanwhile, all around me fair-haired women of Achaea gathered, as, in my sorrow, I was there lamenting that the eagle had slaughtered all my geese. But he came back, and, sitting on a beam, projecting from the roof, checked my sorrow, and in a human voice, spoke out to me, "Daughter of illustrious Icarius, you must be resolute. That was no dream but a glimpse of what will truly happen. The suitors are those geese, and I am here. Before I was an eagle, now I've come as your own husband, who will execute a cruel fate on each and every suitor." That's what he said, then sweet sleep released me.

• 1:00:23Liv Albert?

  When I looked round the hall, I saw the geese, pecking the wheat beside the water trough, as they used to do before. Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, "Lady, it's impossible to twist another meaning from this dream. The real Odysseus has revealed to you how he will end all of this. The suitors' deaths are all plain to see, and not one of them will escape destruction and a lethal fate."

• 1:00:53Liv Albert?

  Wise Penelope then replied to him and said, stranger, stories told in dreams are difficult, their meanings are not clear, and for people, they are not realized in every detail. There are two gates for insubstantial dreams, one made of horn and one of ivory. Those which pass through the fresh cut ivory deceive. The words they bring are unfulfilled. Those who come through the gate of polished horn, once some mortal sees them, bring on the truth. But I don't think, in my case, the strange dream came through that gate. It truly would have been a welcome thing to me and to my son. I'll tell you something else. Keep it in mind, that morning is already drawing near. When I leave the palace of

• 1:01:37Liv Albert?

  Odysseus, a day of evil omen. I will arrange a competition featuring those axes he used to set up in his hall, aligned like ribs on a ship, twelve axes in a row. He'll stand and shoot an arrow through them all. I'll suggest this contest for the suitors. The one whose hand most deftly strings his bow and then shoots an arrow through twelve axes is the one I'll go with. I'll leave my house, a lovely home where I've lived as a wife, full of what one needs. Even in my dreams, it will stay in my memory forever. Resourceful Odysseus then answered her and said, honored wife of Odysseus, Laertes'

• 1:02:18Liv Albert?

  son, do not delay this contest in your halls a moment longer. I can assure you, Odysseus will be here with all his schemes before these men pick up the polished bow, string it, and shoot an arrow through the iron. Wise Penelope then answered him, stranger, if you wish to sit with me in these halls to bring me pleasure, sleep would never sit on these eyelids of mine. But there's no way men can go on forever without sleep. Immortal gods have set a proper time for every man on this grain-bearing earth. So now I'll climb up to my upstairs room and lie down on the bed, which is for me, a place for grieving, always damp with tears, since

• 1:03:00Liv Albert?

  Odysseus went to wicked Iliad, a name no one should ever talk about. I'll lie down there, but you can stretch out here in the house, putting cushions on the floor, or let the servants make a bed for you. Once she said this, she went to her bright upper room, not by herself, her two attendants went with her. When she and both her servants reached the upstairs room, she cried out for Odysseus, her dear husband, until Athena cast sweet sleep across her eyes.

• 1:03:47Liv Albert?

  Oh, nerds, another book down. I, oh, Penelope, Penelope, this whole bit, this whole bit.

• 1:03:58Liv Albert?

  It's one of the first times I've hit a bit of a hurdle with this translation, too. You might have heard it right after the ad break, but I had another time where I had to change the word hussies to women. Hussies is just a wild choice overhaul. Like, there's just a lot going on there. I just decided that I was gonna try to see, this is a weird pause because I just decided I was gonna try to see if I could hunt down the Greek, and I'm not good enough to be 100% sure, but in the right area of the original Greek, I did find the, I think, feminine version of dog, which definitely can be bitch, but also just

• 1:04:42Liv Albert?

  dogs. I don't know. I found the very, there's like a ridiculously old translation that's available on the Perseus Project, which is what I use to figure out what words are. And it uses creatures rather than hussies. And frankly, I'll take creatures.

• 1:05:01Liv Albert?

  In any case, it's really interesting to see the way they speak of enslaved people, but also like the way that an enslaved person like Irikla also speaks about other enslaved people. Like, there's clearly a hierarchy, particularly when a woman like her, you know, who has been like with a family for the entirety of someone like Odysseus's life. It's just kind of fascinating and dark and intriguing. But if I could just never read the word hussy again, I think I would be perfectly happy. In any case, I will be back soon with more readings and you can catch more from Michaela soon. I'm trying to think of what Friday's

• 1:05:44Liv Albert?

  episode is. I've just recorded it and I made a plan and I've already forgotten, but I'll tell you what, it's gonna be good because I've only recorded really delightful episodes recently. So stay tuned for that and more. We've got a bunch of conversations backed up, ready to be edited and released and, oh, more good things coming. We're back. We're trying, we're trying. It's really fun to be a self-employed creative during the downfall of, you know, Western civilization. Not that I'm not welcoming it, just it's gonna be bad while it happens. Anyway, on that incredibly lighthearted note, you know, just like me,

• 1:06:29Liv Albert?

  as usual, let's talk about Myths Baby. It's written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangowish is the Hermes to my Olympians, the co-host and producer. Note that, we're bringing that in more. We're, you know, the whole co-host vibes. More Michaela, right? More Michaela. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, also something we're trying to do more with soon and ongoing. Check out the new little shop that I have opened and hope it all works correctly. If you can check out mythsbaby.com and just click on shop, or it's mythsbaby.com/m merchandise. We have those Odyssey bookplates, really fun

• 1:07:13Liv Albert?

  stickers that I've been sitting on for fucking years and have otherwise only been able to sell it, like those couple of London events I did. So check out these stickers, the Euripides Fan Club sticker is naturally a highlight. It's incredible. The Cathonica Cuties is amazing. Remember, all of these illustrations are by the absolutely incredible Angel Incarnate. We absolutely love all the work that she's done. And finally, these things are available, literally, like I, the amount of money that I spent on these, this merch, like, two years ago, and I've just been sitting on, I'm just really excited to hopefully make some of that back because the times are tough, my friends, the times are tough. And I understand

• 1:07:54Liv Albert?

  that's true for so many of us. So, you know, only if you can and you want to, but also, similarly, if you can and you want to, consider being a patron and helping us keep the show afloat by getting access to ad-free content bonus, plus a discount. Patrons get a discount, which makes the bookplate free. You just have to pay for shipping because in a perfect world, it would have been free anyway. It is, I think I made it $3 Canadian, which is considerably less in most other currencies. It's really just to offset the cost of actually mailing it out. And otherwise, patrons get a general discount as well. They get 15%

• 1:08:38Liv Albert?

  off. And yeah, consider that, patreon.com/MythsBaby. These are all the ways that my anti-capitalist heart is trying very hard to continue making a living while also not asking people to spend more than they have. Can you tell I'm good at it? This whole capitalist thing?

• 1:09:04Liv Albert?

  In any case, thank you all so much. I am Liv and I love this shit.

• 1:09:22Speaker 01

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  We'll have room for fried cookies.

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• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Enemy of My Dreams by Jenny Williamson is a historical romance novel set in the time of the late Roman Empire, where Alaric, a brutal Gothic warlord, and Julia, a Roman princess, with a love of good wine, team up to take down Rome.

• 1:12:45Liv Albert?

  The much-awaited sequel, Game of Thieves, comes out December 8. In this sequel, Julia and Alaric must overcome centuries of conflict to work together, or the turbulent riptides of rebellion and the demons of their past will tear them apart.

• 1:12:59Speaker 03

  And now, for a limited time, when you preorder Game of Thieves through Burning Pages Bookstore, you'll get a signed bookplate and a free art print of one of Jenny's favorite spicy scenes from across the series.

• 1:13:12Liv Albert?

  Get this amazing artwork only from Burning Pages at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves. Don't wait. Order your copy from Burning Pages today at burningpagesnc.com/game-of-thieves.