Body Language Expert: 6 Psychological Tricks to Turn Awkwardness into Confidence

Do you want to know how to talk to anyone with ease and confidence? In this episode, you will learn science-backed psychological tricks to be more successful, charismatic, and influential today. Today, Mel is bringing back one of the most tactical and empowering conversations ever on The Mel Robbins Podcast, with a brand-new introduction and new insights for right now. Vanessa Van Edwards is a behavioral researcher, bestselling author, and the founder of Science of People, a behavior lab that studies high achievers and the science of confidence, charisma, communication, and body language. She also teaches at Harvard University’s Professional and Executive Development program. Her research shows that your body is communicating before you ever say a word. And with a few simple changes, you can start showing up with more confidence immediately. You’ll learn exactly what to do with your shoulders, your hands, your voice, and even where you stand in a room so you feel less awkward and more powerful. You’ll also learn why some conversations feel effortless while others fall flat, how highly influential people communicate differently, and the small psychological cues that can help you connect with almost anyone. In this episode, you’ll learn: -The best place to stand at a networking event if you do not know anyone -Why standing near the entrance is one of the worst places to meet people -The conversation starter that never works -How where you sit at work can boost - or hurt - your productivity -The A-B-C-D exercise that can help you work with your strengths, protect your energy, and prevent burnout Whether you want to become a better leader, make new friends, land the job, or simply feel more confident in the moments that matter, you’ll leave this episode with practical tools you can start using immediately. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page. If you liked the episode, check out this one next: How to Talk to Difficult People: Proven Strategies to Stop Arguments & Feel Connected Again Connect with Mel: Order Mel’s product, Pure Genius Protein Get Mel’s newsletter, packed with tools, coaching, and inspiration. Get Mel’s #1 bestselling book, The Let Them Theory Watch the episodes on YouTube Follow Mel on Instagram The Mel Robbins Podcast Instagram Mel's TikTok Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes ad-free Disclaimer

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mel Robbins?

  Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

• 0:09Mel Robbins?

  Oh my gosh, you are going to love this episode today because today you're going to learn how to use body language and six psychological tricks that can help you turn awkwardness, shyness, self doubt, insecurity into confidence. And you will love our expert today because she is a behavioral researcher. She teaches at Harvard University's Professional and Executive Development Program. She's a New York Times bestselling author and she spent two decades sharing what you're about to learn today. Her research proves that your body is communicating something before you ever say a word. And when you understand how to use your body to communicate the right things, everything changes. Today, you're going to learn simple

• 0:53Mel Robbins?

  body language cues that will help you communicate more confidence immediately. For example, exactly where you need to stand when you walk in the room and you don't know anyone, what to do with your hands when you're speaking, how to carry yourself before a meeting, a date, a presentation, or an important conversation. After today, you're going to know the six psychological tricks that you can use so you can start building real confidence, communicate with more power, and show up like the person you want to be.

• 1:26Mel Robbins?

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• 2:56Mel Robbins?

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• 3:18Mel Robbins?

  I am so fired up for the conversation today because you're going to learn six psychological tricks that turn awkwardness, insecurity, self doubt into confidence. And you're going to learn it from a world-renowned expert in body language. And here's a fun fact about our expert. Her name is Vanessa Van Edwards, and she was one of the very first guests I had on the Mel Robbins Podcast four years ago. And listeners around the world loved it. They're still listening to this episode, which is why I wanted to share this conversation with you, where she's teaching you six psychological tricks that create instant confidence. And here's the reason why I wanted to share this conversation again. I have been flooded recently with questions from your fellow listeners around the world. Questions about struggling

• 4:03Mel Robbins?

  with confidence. You're trying to get a job. You want to be more effective. You want to put yourself out there. Like, how do I carry myself when I don't even feel comfortable walking up to a circle of people? Well, today, we're going to change that. You're going to learn how to walk into a room, meet new people, speak up at work, go after what you want without second guessing yourself. Doesn't that sound great? Of course, it sounds great. That's why I want to introduce you to one of the most respected experts on body language and confidence, Vanessa Van Edwards. She's a behavioral researcher, bestselling author. She teaches at Harvard University's Professional and Executive Development Program. She's also the founder of Science of People, a behavior lab that studies high achievers and

• 4:47Mel Robbins?

  the science of confidence, charisma, communication, and body language. And today, she's here for you. So let's jump into the moment when Vanessa Van Edwards first walked in to our Boston studios.

• 5:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm so happy to be back. Thanks for having me.

• 5:03Mel Robbins?

  I am so excited to see you. And I guess where I want to start before we jump into all of the tools and the research. I mean, you just bring it every time I talk to you. So why does it matter to either know high achievers or to be one? Like, how does being a high achiever, other than the obvious, you're achieving your goals? But why does it matter?

• 5:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think that what's really crucial is that I've spent a career studying these high achievers. And I've noticed that they have very specific behavior patterns and communication patterns. And what they do is they take what I call communication shortcuts. So they are able to say no more easily to difficult people. That is something that I think everyone wants.

• 5:44Mel Robbins?

  For sure.

• 5:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They are more easily able to achieve their goals and enjoy the process. So many people, they achieve their goals and have no happiness, no satisfaction, no joy in achieving those goals. High performers, they enjoy the means and the end. So there's the enjoyment. They're saying no to difficult people easily. And it's also, I think that from my perspective, high achievers very clearly are able to know who they are and they're able to share it. And so my goal today is to help people achieve those three things.

• 6:14Mel Robbins?

  I love that. You know, the person that is listening to this conversation right now is somebody who is driven, they are curious, they're looking for ways to improve their life, they want the best for their family and their friends, they want to achieve their goals. And I also notice that we are, in the Mel Robbins Podcast family, a group of people who burn ourselves out, who take on too much. So can you talk a little bit about just being a high achiever versus just finding yourself being too busy or burnt out? Like, what is the distinction here?

• 6:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Let's be very clear. Burnout is not a sign of success. Right? We are not going to have any more. And I hope that maybe we can challenge ourselves. Do not compete for who is busiest. I see so many extremely smart, successful people, almost trying to one-up themselves or one-up others in busyness. Busyness and burnout is not a mark of success. So being burnt out just means you're saying yes to too much, you're doing too much. I don't think that's a mark of a successful person. I do think it's important to be uncomfortable, though. I think that if you're out of your comfort zone, it means you're pushing yourself. I think high performers are consistently stretching, not their time. They're not burnt out. They're stretching their comfort zones. And so hopefully

• 7:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  today, we can sort of shed that busyness competition and focus more on being assertive with our energy.

• 7:43Mel Robbins?

  Ooh, I love that. I want to unpack just that last bit.

• 7:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, good.

• 7:47Mel Robbins?

  What does it mean to be assertive with your energy?

• 7:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, this is the first pattern of highly effective people. One thing that I noticed early on is that I think that there are two different types of energy. There's social energy and work energy. Social energy is the energy you spend every day having conversation, managing difficult people, thinking to yourself, I have an idea. How can I communicate this idea? Presenting your ideas, managing interpersonal conflict, getting things done with people. That's social energy. Very different is your work energy. Your work energy is how you tackle your tasks. It's when you're breaking down your goals. It's how you're getting through your day. It's how you're checking off all your piles or sorting your papers. Those are two distinctly different types of energy. What most people do, and this is the mistake

• 8:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think smart people make, is they focus only on work energy. All they're thinking about in the morning is what tasks do I have? What's my email? What do I have to get done? And they forget how much social interactions can cost us from an energy perspective. And so what I want to think about is, okay, in your day, what are the things that give you social energy? The people who like, oh, they just make you feel so good. The conversations, the interpersonal activities that make you feel good. They are like plugging into a charger. Okay. What are the things that take your social energy? The people, the interactions.

• 9:11Mel Robbins?

  So it's the same things?

• 9:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's different for everyone, right? So for example, so for me, I get social energy from one to one conversations. I get social energy from teaching. I lose social energy from chit chat. I am allergic to small talk. Even a little bit of small talk drains my battery faster than going right into deep conversation. So even like if I'm having small talk with my Uber driver on the way to this interview, exhausting, right? I'm just like, oh, I can't do it. I can't talk about the weather. I can't. But like this conversation, I'm charging, right? So that could be different for certain people. Like introverts might feel that most social things take social energy. You actually have to think about that list. Work energy is the same. And later we can do a little activity on this of what work tasks fuel you? What gives you flow?

• 9:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What gives you productivity? What do you do? You're like, I could do this all day. Versus, of course, what work tasks drain you? And this also could be home tasks. It doesn't have to be just work, right? Like, I don't mind doing the dishes so much. I pop in a podcast. I listen to you. I listen to my audiobook. I love a memoir. And like, I'm kind of in my happy place. Whereas other people, oh, they dread it. So I think that what highly effective people do to bring back this is they are relentless. They are assertive in saying no to these social tasks that drain them or boxing them, which you can also do.

• 10:28Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 10:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they are relentless about grabbing the work that gives them work energy, taking it and assertively saying, I want it. So high performers, they are assertive about their social energy and their work energy, and they're very clear about it.

• 10:43Mel Robbins?

  Are you recommending that instead of just waking up and kind of going through your day and scheduling the stuff that you need to do, that you take a beat? And you think about, okay, what social stuff drains me? And what social stuff energizes me? And what work stuff drains me? And what work stuff energizes me? And I need to get really assertive with how I'm directing my energy and what I'm saying no to?

• 11:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I need to know it and I need to ask for it. And the same thing goes for relationships. The relationships that are the most toxic are not the toxic relationships. They're actually the ambivalent relationships.

• 11:18Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 11:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And this is, I think, the problem is with social energy and work energy. It's ambivalence that drains us the most. It's like an app running in the background. It's draining you without even realizing it. Ambivalent tasks and ambivalent relationships are the same. So the hardest category is not just, yes, those work tasks drain me. It's the task where you're like, I kind of like it. Mm hmm. Mm, mm, mm. When someone says kind of, I go, ooh. That was a flag for you. I don't want you to kind of like it. I don't want you to kind of like someone. It was okay hanging out with them. No. There's that famous adage now, you should be a heck yeah, not a yeah. Let's break that down into actual, some actual tasks and some actual systems. So ambivalence is a problem of our work energy and our social energy.

• 12:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And highly effective people are very good at not having anything ambivalent.

• 12:08Mel Robbins?

  And what does ambivalent mean?

• 12:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 12:09Mel Robbins?

  It's a big word.

• 12:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And yes, ambivalent means you're not sure if you love it or hate it. You can take it or leave it. You feel neutral often when you do it. That is actually more dangerous. I'll give you an example that happens the most with people. Ambivalent relationships are actually the hardest. You might have that friend where you see them on your calendar. You're like, oh, yeah. Should I cancel? I'm so tired. Or I'm not really looking forward to it, but we've been friends forever. And it's been on the calendar for a long time. And you hang out with them and you wonder, is this fun? Or as my, my good friend says, is this fun or am I just fun? Right? Like sometimes really fun people can mask they're having fun.

• 12:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Actually, they're just fun, but they're not actually having any fun. So you're wondering, am I having fun? Or are they supporting me? Wait, was that passive aggressive? Why do I feel so tired? When you leave this friend and you think, oh, I should have just stayed home and watched Netflix? When you leave and you can't remember anything you talked about? When you leave and you question, do they really like me? Did I learn anything? Did I get asked good questions? That is the ambivalent relationship.

• 13:25Mel Robbins?

  And we pour a ton of energy into them.

• 13:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A ton. They take more energy than the good relationships and the toxic relationships. And so when you think about the people in your life, and I would highly recommend, make a list of all the people in your life. And put a star next to the people who you would drop things to hang out with. Like you would move some things around and hang out with them. That's a good relationship. Then put a, a minus sign next to people who you dread hanging out with. Sometimes these are obligatory relationships, colleagues or family relationships you don't really love. That's fine. Know it. Own it. Don't pretend that you like hanging out with them. That's okay. It's okay that we have you, that are not our people. And then put a question mark next to the people who you're not sure if you would forget if you didn't hang out with them.

• 14:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? You know those people, like weeks go by and you're like, man, I haven't even thought about that person? Those question marks, please stop seeing them. Just for a while. Do you miss them? Is your life different not seeing them? I think we have to be really careful with our social energy.

• 14:25Mel Robbins?

  Well, and here's the other thing we don't think about. You're a question mark on somebody else's list.

• 14:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's right.

• 14:30Mel Robbins?

  And you wouldn't want somebody to make time and hang out with you if they're sitting there across the table from you going, is this fun? Do I like this person? And so don't do that to somebody else.

• 14:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 14:44Mel Robbins?

  And the other thing that I'm getting from this, because this makes so much sense, is that if you were to take that energy and time and focus it on the people that you really like, that you don't see enough of, it would lift your life up and it would make those relationships so

• 15:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And deeper.

• 15:03Mel Robbins?

  Much better.

• 15:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. You've got to say no to the bad to make room for the right.

• 15:08Mel Robbins?

  Wow. So Vanessa, what does your research show about the top habits of a high achiever?

• 15:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  One is they start their day not just thinking about their to do list, but thinking about their work and social energy. Second is they use the Pygmalion effect in their day. So the Pygmalion effect is after a Greek myth that Pygmalion made a statue of a beautiful woman, and then he fell in love with the statue, and then he kissed her and she came to life. So this effect is studied in research that if you set up a good expectation, that expectation will come to life. So highly effective people are constantly using the power of labels to set up expectations. So they use labels for themselves, but they also use labels for others. So if they see someone who is an incredible speaker or presenter or organizer, they are constantly saying, you are such a magician with presentations. I don't know how you do that. Or you are so good at cooking dinner.

• 16:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Thank you so much for cooking dinner. That expectations also turns people to life and then everyone's doing better. So being clear in the beginning of the day, Pygmalion effect, no ambivalence. So getting rid of all those ambivalent relationships and those ambivalent tasks. And the last one I would say is the power of liking. So this is another study that I just love. The study changed my life, changed the way I think about likability. So I talked earlier about how you can be both assertive and likable.

• 16:27Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 16:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I truly believe that. And here's how we become likable. We've talked a lot about assertiveness, but how do we become likable to parrot? So this is a study that was done by Van Sloen, and he studied high school students. These are kind of the original likable kids, right? He was curious, why are some kids popular and other kids not? So if you were to ask someone, you know, why are kids popular? I probably would have guessed athletes, or maybe they're the funniest. Maybe they're the most attractive. So he looked at everything from athleticism to GPA to attractiveness to humor, as many variables as he could think of. And he found that there was, and this was across a variety of high schools and across a variety of grades. So it wasn't just one school. He found there was one single pattern amongst all the schools and all the grades.

• 17:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  He found that the most liked kids, the most popular kids, had the longest list of people they liked.

• 17:21Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 17:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. In other words, yes, we are in control of our likability. That if we find ways to like more people, we become more likable. And in the hallways, when he studied these really likable kids that everyone put on their like list, they weren't, you know, having hours long conversations in the cafeteria. They weren't, you know, checking in on everyone all the time. They were just acknowledging every single person in the hallway, usually by name. Hey Mel. Hey Greg. Sarah, looking good. Right? It was these micro moments

• 18:00Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 18:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  of likability. And that really changed my perspective is, one, it's not about their people. It's about you. You being likable is about spreading likability, and it starts with you. But if you can find, and I mean assertively, find ways to like people, you become more likable. And that means the onus is on you. But if you're ambivalent about those people, so those question marks on your list, stop hanging out for a little while. See if you miss them. If you do miss them, here's your next step. Find ways to aggressively and assertively like them. Find the things that you love about each other. Find the commonalities and make sure they know it. I think too often, as adults especially, we, we, we're too cool to show that we like people.

• 18:44Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 18:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You know, we play it cool. We don't, we hold back. We don't want to be the first liker. No. My mission in life is to be first liker. I invite people to sit with me at conferences. I'm the first person to ask questions in conversation. If I like someone, I literally tell them, I like you. I like you a lot. I am constantly telling the people I truly like, I really like you. I like spending time with you. You're so interesting because if I know that I can truly say that, I want to be assertive about it. And so that's the next step is I think highly effective people, the reason they're so charismatic is they relentlessly pursue people they actually like, and then they share it.

• 19:23Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 19:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. I like you, Mel.

• 19:26Mel Robbins?

  I adore you.

• 19:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, I'll take it.

• 19:29Mel Robbins?

  I like your brain. I like your takeaways. I like your energy. I like your enthusiasm. I like what is clearly a commitment

• 19:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:39Mel Robbins?

  that you have to helping us be more influential and also enjoy your life.

• 19:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 19:45Mel Robbins?

  I got really choked up when you said that thing about the kid walking down the hallway. Like I, here I am crying over this silly example.

• 19:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I felt emotional when you said you adored me. I was like, oh.

• 19:56Mel Robbins?

  Well, you know, because I think so many of us walk around feeling like [BLEEP] about ourselves.

• 20:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 20:01Mel Robbins?

  And so if somebody just walks by and is like, hey, I love your sweater. You look great today. You're like, oh, thank you.

• 20:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or even, I really like working with you.

• 20:09Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 20:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't know if I tell you that enough. I love when you're in a meeting with me.

• 20:12Mel Robbins?

  Oh.

• 20:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right? Like to be able to say that. And that's why it's so critical, that first exercise of knowing who you like and not being ambivalent, because I don't want you to fake that. Right? I only want you to be able to say that if you truly believe it. And so spreading likes, it feels so good. And I also think it prevents our burnout. I think that the way that we prevent burnout is yes, we can be doing lots of things, but if we're working with people we like and we're doing tasks we like, and we can all feel good about it, it gives energy. Like it makes you feel so good. And so I think that making that list of people you like, I want that list to get longer. I want you to find ways to like more people because that makes you so likable.

• 20:55Mel Robbins?

  Wow. You mentioned the fake.

• 20:58Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 20:58Mel Robbins?

  Don't fake it. And I'm asking this because I completely understand the counsel and advice about removing things you're ambivalent about.

• 21:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 21:14Mel Robbins?

  I would just like to know though, because I do think that there's that kindness of acknowledging people and saying hello to people and calling them by name.

• 21:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 21:23Mel Robbins?

  And but you're talking about like authentically aggressively liking people.

• 21:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I am.

• 21:27Mel Robbins?

  So does it backfire if you fake this?

• 21:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, I struggle with this one because I don't love the idea of fake it till you make it.

• 21:36Mel Robbins?

  Me either.

• 21:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah. But I understand that there are folks who have to employ that tool to step into themselves. So if that's you, that's okay. If that works for you, that's okay. But fake doesn't really work. And they've actually studied this. So Dr. Barbara Wild and her associates brought participants into her lab, and she showed them pictures of people who were authentically smiling. In other words, when they took the picture, they were told, think of something that makes you happy.

• 22:04Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 22:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And then they had people fake smile. And they had, they took the mood tests before and after. Everyone who saw the real happiness caught the mood. They actually had an improved mood score. Everyone who looked at the fake pictures had no mood change at all.

• 22:18Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 22:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So that means that if you want to be more contagious, if you want to spread positivity, likability, real, authentic happiness is more contagious. However, the people who saw the fake picture did not have a worse mood. They just had no mood change at all. So the way that I would frame this is I don't love you to be fake. It just makes you less impactful and influential. However, it doesn't have a detrimental effect on someone. And so if that's what you need to get through the day, or you're in a situation where you can't be like, well, I don't like you. We shouldn't hang out, right? Then that's okay. It's okay to be fake to get through. But if you can, as much as possible, I think stretching into or putting the, I put a question mark there on purpose. There are people in my life who I do have to fake it a little bit,

• 23:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  but they're question marks. I'm hopeful. I'm optimistic that one day we'll figure it out. I'm optimistic that one day we'll find something that we both like. I think that's okay. I think being fake with hope is okay.

• 23:20Mel Robbins?

  Hmm. That I like.

• 23:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 23:22Mel Robbins?

  Because what's authentic is your desire that it changed for the better. So you're not being fake at all.

• 23:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  No.

• 23:27Mel Robbins?

  Got it. Okay. I just loved what you shared about likability. And it makes me wonder, what about vulnerability? Does that make you more likable?

• 23:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Okay. So I think there's a misconception that to be likable, you have to be perfect or you have to be impressive. And so that was, I'm a recovering awkward person. That was me for many years, trying desperately to like be perfect and be impressive and have funny stories. And it doesn't work. In fact, vulnerability is one of the fastest ways to show likability. And there was actually a study that was done on this by Richard Wiseman. So what he did is he had an actress go into the mall and do a smoothie demonstration. She was selling blenders. That was her fake activity. And she did a couple of demonstrations where she made the smoothie perfectly with the strawberries and the bananas. And she blended it up and she poured everyone for smoothies.

• 24:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And they had everyone in the mall rate her on likability. Then they had a series of them where she spilled the smoothie. Okay. She dripped it, spilled it. Oh my gosh, so sorry about that. Just one little spill, like didn't make a whole thing of it, but spilled it. Everyone in those studies rated her as more likable.

• 24:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What a gift to know that your mistakes make you more likable. The reason for this is because we know no one is perfect. We know this. And we also know that if someone is trying to impress us, they might be trying to cover something up. And so I love the idea of likable people are not prettier. They're not more impressive. Liking more people, yes. But also approaching them with your vulnerability. So being at a wedding, trying to make friends and saying to someone, I'm starving.

• 25:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Even a little vulnerability. When I'm trying to make friends, when I'm uncomfortable, like a loud nightclub or a loud bar, I'm like, my feet are killing me. Are yours? Right? Like I think that sharing some of our fears, some of our weaknesses, that is actually a way to make everyone feel like themselves. And so being vulnerable, admitting mistakes, saying you're scared or uncomfortable, you know, for a decade of my life, I tried to hide that I'm a recovering awkward person. And the moment that I started sharing, I am awkward. I feel awkward all the time. That's why I do this work. I felt like I could be myself. And then all these people started to tell me they feel like awkward people too. And that's when I started having a real connection.

• 25:47Mel Robbins?

  Vanessa, I am so glad that you hopped on a plane and came back. And I know that we are just getting started. And so I want to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors who bring this to you at zero cost. And while you're listening to sponsors, I'm gonna be sending this to my three kids. Sawyer, Kendall, and Oakley need to hear this. I know you have people in your life that need these tools and tactics, so be sure to send it to them too. And Vanessa and I will be waiting for you when we come back. Stay with us.

• 26:17Mel Robbins?

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• 27:02Mel Robbins?

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• 27:46Mel Robbins?

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• 27:59Mel Robbins?

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• 28:06Mel Robbins?

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• 28:13Mel Robbins?

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• 28:38Mel Robbins?

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• 29:23Mel Robbins?

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• 29:53Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so glad you're listening to this episode today because we have got the remarkable Vanessa Van Edwards. We are digging into the research around success and how you can use the habits of high achievers and influential people to level up in your own life. So Vanessa, you can walk into a room and see who's influential, but can you teach us how to walk into a room and see somebody who's highly influential? Like just distinguish?

• 30:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. So the very first thing, I've noticed this in a lot of rooms, from both professional rooms to social rooms, to even speed dating, is typically when a person is tuned into someone or aware of someone, we angle our body towards them. Now, as adults, we get pretty good at hiding this, but our toes often give us away. So typically, when I walk into a room, I like to play a little game with myself. This is how I amuse myself. I try to guess who the boss is in the room, or I try to guess work crushes. And almost always, I can identify exactly who the boss in the room is based on where people's toes are pointing. Typically, we point our toes towards the most important person in the room. That is because subconsciously, our body is attuned to them, wanting to either

• 31:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  talk to them, go towards them, or wants to read them. So whenever I'm in a room with like an influence or a celebrity, even if it's just a mingling, I can almost always tell that everyone is like, their eye is on that influence or that celebrity or the boss, because their toes are pointed towards them. The only exception to this is when people have to go, you will notice their toes will shift towards the exit. It's if their brain are going, what's my escape? When can I get out of here? So one is always look at toe direction.

• 31:29Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 31:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It can also show you hidden crushes. Not always, but sometimes. Usually, I can tell when someone has a little crushy crush on someone else based on where their toes and that person will move, and the person's toes who has a crush on them will usually follow them, which is kind of a funny thing. So always pay attention to toes. That's the first way that we do it. The second thing is typically, not always, highly influential people claim their space. So all of this ties together. When you are assertive, you are assertive verbally, you are assertive emotionally, you're also assertive physically. And this has been proven. So researchers from the University of British Columbia studied athletes. And they studied athletes across genders and races, and they found that winning athletes,

• 32:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  athletes who win a race, they take up a pride pose. This was popularized by Amy Cuddy's TED Talk, which had its own set of history, but they've actually proven that just the body language itself is repeatable. So winning athletes, they take up space, they lower their shoulders, they usually tilt their head towards the sky. And then there's two measurements that I think no one talks about, but I want to talk about, that everyone misses. Yes, we get it. If someone walks in a room like Rocky, you know, with their hands above their head, we get it, they feel good. But that's very socially aggressive. Like, I'm not going to advise people to walk into a room, I'm here. It's too much. What the two measurements that actually matter the most for being impactful or spotting an impactful

• 32:55Vanessa Van Edwards?

  person are the distance between our earlobes and our shoulder.

• 32:59Mel Robbins?

  Wait, what?

• 33:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know.

• 33:00Mel Robbins?

  The distance between?

• 33:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Our earlobe and our shoulder.

• 33:04Mel Robbins?

  So right now, I think I probably have, what, eight inches, six inches, something like that?

• 33:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so for you, that's maxed. Try to put your shoulders down as much as possible.

• 33:12Mel Robbins?

  Like down?

• 33:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, that's the most, right?

• 33:14Mel Robbins?

  I just want to explain, because you can see this on YouTube, but basically, just imagine, as you're listening, that we are taking our ears, try to touch your ears with your shoulders, and shrink down into your body. And that's what Vanessa's doing.

• 33:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Turtle, turtle your head, put your shoulders up, try to touch your ears to your shoulders.

• 33:31Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, look, like pretend you're a teenager who's staring at your phone.

• 33:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is what happens. So as we do this, a couple of things happen. One is we feel terrible. You feel terrible?

• 33:39Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 33:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It feels terrible. So it feels terrible. Also, our vocal power drops. So it's very, very hard to actually give a lot of vocal power. I go into vocal fry when I do this, because it's very hard. So it affects your vocal power, it affects your perceived confidence of how you feel, and also affects how you look, right? You look less confident. If I were to give the entire interview like this.

• 33:57Mel Robbins?

  And you can see right now, and she literally, she's just like, hi! And she squeezed her shoulders up. You literally, all of a sudden, went from Vanessa renowned researcher to, it's Vanessa in middle school.

• 34:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is the only difference. This one little cue completely changes your perception of me.

• 34:14Mel Robbins?

  So for somebody who is introverted?

• 34:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 34:18Mel Robbins?

  And you are, like, the idea of the spotlight being on you is your worst nightmare, but you do want to become more assertive, or you at least want people to look at you and go, she's confident, he's confident, they're an influential person. What are, what's the body language that you can start to practice?

• 34:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Well, first of all, I write books for you, because I believe your cues can speak for you.

• 34:41Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 34:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  For introverts, your cues are even more important, because you can use small, micro cues, nonverbally, to speak for you, right? Okay, so for an introvert or anyone listening, you want to maximize the distance between your ear and your shoulder pretty much at all time, especially on video. Here is a classic mistake that I see all the time. Hey, everyone. Hi.

• 35:02Mel Robbins?

  You're on Zoom, and your shoulders are up your ears.

• 35:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And your shoulders are up your ears. Or you're waving hello with your shoulders up to yours. Or they walk into a date, or they walk into a meeting, morning. Your first impression is now little, small, defeated.

• 35:15Mel Robbins?

  Here's the cue I want to give you, as you're listening. If you are like, but I'm shy, but I am introverted, but I do feel awkward in those situations. I want you to think about middle school you, being terrified of seeing a group of cool kids.

• 35:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Mel Robbins?

  And the badass powerhouse that we know that you are inside. And I want you to imagine that your friend Mel Robbins is on one side of you, and your friend Vanessa Van Edwards is on the other side of you. And I want you to pull that body language together. That's what we're talking about. Because everybody can pull their shoulders back and drop them down and stand up taller or sit up taller.

• 35:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it.

• 35:54Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 35:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And that one cue creates a loop. And here's what I want you to think about. If that's, if you're, if that's you thinking, oh, my gosh, I'm scared, I am awkward, you can change the loop of your awkwardness with this one cue. Why? Is if you have your shoulders down and back, it signals to your brain, I'm taking up space, I'm claiming my space, which then tells your brain, okay, we're safe, we're okay. The reason why we hunch our shoulders is to protect our neck. That is why we're doing it.

• 36:17Mel Robbins?

  That's why we do that?

• 36:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, it's an evolutionary cue. So if I turtle my neck down, and I tilt my chin down, and I hunch my shoulders up, my throat is more protected. That is a more protected gesture. So it's, there's an evolutionary reason why we do it. So if your shoulders are down and back, your head is held high, my jugular is showing, my brain says, ah, we're safe. If you do the opposite, you're telling your brain, we are not safe, which then makes you have more cortisol, which shuts down your thinking, which makes you have dry mouth, which makes you blush, which makes you run out of oxygen, right? It creates all those awkwardness cues. So we can stop our awkward loops by simply changing our cues. So this is the first distance, is ear to shoulder.

• 36:56Mel Robbins?

  I want to make sure you got that. So if you're watching on YouTube, you're going to follow along. As you're listening to us, as long as you're not driving a car, I want you to actually experience what Vanessa's talking about. So I want you to take, will you walk, like, you take your chin and you point it down, and you put your shoulders up?

• 37:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Point your chin down as if you're checking your phone.

• 37:14Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 37:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, hunch your shoulders up, and then turtle your ears down, so you're as small as possible, so your jugular, your neck is protected. If you sit like this?

• 37:21Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 37:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You are going to begin to feel more awkward, uncomfortable, you're going to lose oxygen.

• 37:25Mel Robbins?

  It's hard to breathe, almost, but yes.

• 37:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. You're going to lose oxygen, you're going to have vocal fry. And here is the biggest aha of all. That is what everyone does when they check their phone. So accidentally, multiple times a day, you are putting yourself into defeat and shame body language, accidentally. What are you doing before a date? Probably checking your phone. What are you doing before a presentation? Probably reviewing your phone. What are you doing for? So what I want you to do is check your phone differently.

• 37:51Mel Robbins?

  How?

• 37:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so when you're holding your phone, what I want you to do is up and out.

• 37:55Mel Robbins?

  Up and out.

• 37:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Up and out.

• 37:57Mel Robbins?

  Up and out.

• 37:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. So when I check my phone, especially before something important, I am not hunched over with my chin tucked in, and my, and my arms tucked tightly to my chest, which we're going to talk about in a second. I am up and out. So I'm claiming my space, my phone is up, so that my chin is up, my jugular is still showing. If you check your phone like this, you feel so much more confident.

• 38:15Mel Robbins?

  It's true. I don't have my phone with me, but it's like, okay.

• 38:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Look at my baby. I think there's a good picture of that.

• 38:19Mel Robbins?

  Okay. So if I've got it up like this, true.

• 38:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You can even put your elbow down on the table, that's okay.

• 38:24Mel Robbins?

  That's true. And now I'm like, bicep flex.

• 38:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're like, wow, look at, you look so powerful.

• 38:28Mel Robbins?

  I'm like, I gotta, I gotta pull my phone out here and check it.

• 38:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it.

• 38:33Mel Robbins?

  Wow. And also, like, you can still, like, text while you're doing that.

• 38:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Or you can rest your arms on the table. That's okay, too. Like, you're still looking out, right?

• 38:42Mel Robbins?

  Up and out.

• 38:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Up and out.

• 38:43Mel Robbins?

  I love that. Okay, you said something about our arms. What else are we doing with our arms?

• 38:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so the, so first cue, ears to shoulders. Second cue, distance between your torso and your arms. Watch this. So if you're listening, I want you to pin your arms tightly to your side, and I want you to try to roll your chest in, and then I want you to cross your arms over your chest.

• 39:01Mel Robbins?

  Like you're giving yourself like a little hug in front.

• 39:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You will begin to feel like, mm, I'm a little nervous, I'm a little anxious, I'm a little uncomfortable. You will actually speak in shorter sentences when you sit like this. You're more likely to say no. In research, they find that when you're in closed body languages, you are more likely to say no.

• 39:17Mel Robbins?

  This pose, if you're not watching on YouTube, is the kind of pose you would imagine somebody sitting in, in a gymnasium at a dance, where they haven't been asked?

• 39:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 39:29Mel Robbins?

  To dance?

• 39:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 39:31Mel Robbins?

  And so as you cross your arms in front of your body and you kind of roll your shoulders forward, you do feel kind of like you're a loser.

• 39:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 39:39Mel Robbins?

  Like, I'm literally like, wow, I could get attacked at any time right now.

• 39:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it, because it's a protective gesture. These all come for a reason, right? These body language cues are not made up. The reason why they're universal, not all body language is universal, but the cues we're going to talk about today are universal. It's because there's a reason from an evolutionary perspective why this happens. So if I'm worried about someone attacking me, I want to protect my vital organs. I want to not have my flanks exposed and I want to take up as little space as possible so no one notices me. So we forget that when we're sitting in a meeting, or we're going on a date, or we're trying to psych ourselves, and we're sitting in the car and we're like, oh, I'm so nervous, we're actually creating a negative feedback loop for ourselves.

• 40:19Mel Robbins?

  So what do we do with our arms?

• 40:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So always, please, make sure you are using a desk chair with armrests.

• 40:26Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 40:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So this chair is actually a little hard.

• 40:29Mel Robbins?

  Because we're in new chairs.

• 40:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I can do it.

• 40:31Mel Robbins?

  New chairs, too.

• 40:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  These are okay, we have small armrests.

• 40:33Mel Robbins?

  You and I are both very tall.

• 40:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're very tall, I know. I know, so this is okay if you're a little bit shorter. It's okay, we have some. First of all, armrests immediately bring space. Now, look at the difference between this.

• 40:42Mel Robbins?

  That's true.

• 40:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And this.

• 40:44Mel Robbins?

  And for you listening, all we're doing is moving our elbows out to the side. That's it.

• 40:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So I'm actually okay, I know my mom would not be happy with me, I'm actually okay with elbows on the table if they're nice and broad. You can see space, I'm not trying to be protective. It actually broadens my chest, which gives me more oxygen, which allows me to have more vocal power. So I want you to always choose the chair with the armrest. Like, when I go into pitches, or I'm talking to a client, I always pick the chair with the armrest. I never pick the low slouchy couch.

• 41:08Mel Robbins?

  I don't either. You know why else I pick a chair with an armrest? Because I like to swivel.

• 41:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, the swivel is so good.

• 41:14Mel Robbins?

  And rock, and I like to cock an elbow on the back of the chair.

• 41:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's so good.

• 41:16Mel Robbins?

  Like this?

• 41:17Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is so good, so confident.

• 41:18Mel Robbins?

  I'm like, super relaxed.

• 41:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're a cowgirl. That's basically what that is, right? Yes, and so that is a confident gesture, you're claiming space.

• 41:24Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 41:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You have freedom of movement. The other reason why I love a swivel is because we should be fronting with whoever we're talking to.

• 41:30Mel Robbins?

  Oh, so by that, if you're listening again, you're seeing all this on the YouTube version of this episode, but if you are in a meeting and you're in a swivel chair, we want you to turn your chair and face the person who's actually talking.

• 41:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly. It is a nonverbal sign of respect when you swivel your chair towards them. You're literally saying, I'm going to angle my entire body to get on the same page as you. Tell me, tell me more, I'm aligned with you. And physically, from a research perspective, when we are aligned on the same parallel lines as someone else, we can see each other's body language better. We literally feel like we're on the same page. And so the swivel chair adds to that, and then if you can add armrests, that immediately broadens us and immediately gives us more perceived and feel, felt confidence.

• 42:12Mel Robbins?

  You know what's super great also for someone, especially if you're listening and you're shy, you're introverted, you don't like the attention on you, these are nonverbal things you can do that, based on the research.

• 42:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 42:26Mel Robbins?

  Demonstrate that you're confident, that you're influential, that you are respectful.

• 42:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 42:31Mel Robbins?

  That you are powerful despite the fact that you're not saying anything.

• 42:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it.

• 42:36Mel Robbins?

  What am I doing with my hands?

• 42:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so they actually studied this. They took videotapes of leaders speaking, and they had participants rate the leaders on their charisma, specifically their gestures. They had all kinds of gestures in these videos. They found there was one single gesture that people rated as the most charismatic. And it is, I call it the power pose for the hands, it is a steeple.

• 42:58Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 42:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So a steeple is when you touch the tops of your fingers' tips slightly together and you keep space between your palms. It is the most calm, broad gesture for your hand. You can do it with an armrest, you can do it on the table. Right now, just be careful, don't drum, that's evil drumming. That's very Mr. Burns.

• 43:13Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so now you're not tapping your fingers.

• 43:15Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're not drumming, we're not drumming our fingers.

• 43:17Mel Robbins?

  And if you're listening, everybody, and I want you to touch your pinky to your pinky, like literally make a triangle with your hands.

• 43:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Just try this with me for a second.

• 43:24Mel Robbins?

  Yeah.

• 43:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It will actually make you feel more grounded when you do it.

• 43:27Mel Robbins?

  It's almost like you've got like, superpower running from one hand to the other hand, you're like, zzzzz, you know?

• 43:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And the powers unite.

• 43:35Mel Robbins?

  Good, all right, there we go.

• 43:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, so it's a very relaxed gesture. Now, whenever I teach a cue, there are 97 cues, right? Not every cue is going to work for you. That's okay. I recommend, please try it three times in three different situations. Try it in a meeting, try it on a Zoom call, try it on a date, try it with a friend. If you've tried it three different times with three different people and you still feel ridiculous, you might not want to use it, right? I don't want you to feel silly.

• 44:00Mel Robbins?

  What's the second recommendation for your hands?

• 44:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Second recommendation, so, okay, I love a steeple. The other one is a very small, little subtle gesture, but it's a cue of excitement. So leaders, highly effective people, are cueing people around them to know how to feel. Cues tell others how they should treat us. So this one's a really good one, this is my favorite.

• 44:18Mel Robbins?

  What is it?

• 44:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's this.

• 44:19Mel Robbins?

  Oh, you're rubbing your hands together?

• 44:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 44:21Mel Robbins?

  So literally just rubbing your hands together as you're talking?

• 44:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like, when I'm about to say something, oh, this is really good, this is really exciting, even that small little gesture should be like, ooh, this is going to be good. I don't know why, I think it's because we warm our hands this way, but a very subtle one is if you're about to share something good, or tell someone, oh, this is such a good little story. That one little cue, it shows excitement, it triggers excitement. So you can often go from the this to the this.

• 44:45Mel Robbins?

  You know what I just got as you were doing that?

• 44:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What?

• 44:47Mel Robbins?

  It's almost like, you know, that's the motion you make when you're swiveling a stick to do a fire.

• 44:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, make a fire. Oh, yes. So it's like, literally generating heat.

• 44:53Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 44:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're literally.

• 44:55Mel Robbins?

  That's so cool, is what you're signaling.

• 44:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  We're generating conversational heat, if you're going to go with the metaphor.

• 44:59Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 44:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, the comment line, really, the bigger takeaway here is visible hands.

• 45:04Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 45:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So every gesture I could teach you is visible hands. It's a palm flash, it's a steeple, it's a gesture towards you. Visible is bare minimum. So highly effective people, they claim space with their shoulders and their arms, they have their hands visible because they want to show intention. We, some gestures communicate 400% more information. Like, if I were to say three, you're more likely to believe my three than if I were to say three and hold up five. So we just believe hands more often. So if I were to say, I have three really important things to tell you.

• 45:35Mel Robbins?

  I'm looking at your hands.

• 45:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You'd be like, it's five.

• 45:37Mel Robbins?

  And she's holding up as you're listening at all five, well, is your thumb a finger? Like, I don't even know, it's like.

• 45:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Like, all five fingers.

• 45:45Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 45:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A thumb is a finger.

• 45:47Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 45:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  By the way, try, hold up five but say three.

• 45:52Mel Robbins?

  Three.

• 45:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Horrible.

• 45:53Mel Robbins?

  Like, you just.

• 45:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Can't do it.

• 45:54Mel Robbins?

  It doesn't, I'm trying to do it as you're listening. One of you try to do it while you're listening.

• 45:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Say, I have three ideas, but hold up five.

• 46:01Mel Robbins?

  I have three ideas.

• 46:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Horrible.

• 46:04Mel Robbins?

  Horrible.

• 46:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Why?

• 46:05Mel Robbins?

  I don't know.

• 46:06Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I know, I'm going to tell you, that was a rhetorical one, I'm going to tell you. I was asking why to myself. So here's why, is because it is very hard to lie with gesture. We are very used to lying with our words, and so it's very easy to say three, five, easy. It is very hard to lie with gestures. So if I were to say, I have a really big idea, and I were to hold up my hands like this, and a very small, like I'm holding a little dime or a penny, you would say, Vanessa, it's small. So our brain subconsciously knows this, we are more likely to believe a gesture over a word.

• 46:35Mel Robbins?

  Interesting.

• 46:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is why highly competent people are so good with their gestures, is they're basically signaling to you, I believe in my content so much, I know my stuff so well that I can speak to you on two tracks.

• 46:46Mel Robbins?

  Mouth and hands.

• 46:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. And so another kind of expert level's bottom is keep invisible, keep your hands visible, out of pockets above the desk, right? I like to greet hands first. Second is, can you be explanatory? Can you add a punctuation, or an underline, or a highlight? If you're going to say that you have a big idea, show me how big it is. Is it beach ball big?

• 47:03Mel Robbins?

  So for you listening, I really want you to get this, you might want to check out the YouTube version so that you can watch this, but as she was saying, big idea, she literally held her hands out to be demonstrative with her hands, and it does communicate belief. And it's like, you're right, it's like taking a highlighter with your meat mitts.

• 47:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it.

• 47:25Mel Robbins?

  And just being like, here we go, I believe in this.

• 47:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And it's purposeful, right? So it's not just gestures for the sake of gestures, where I'm just jazz handsing it. It's like underlining purposefully, it's like giving someone an outline.

• 47:35Mel Robbins?

  That's so cool. So how do highly influential people communicate?

• 47:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  They communicate with their nonverbal, their vocal, and their verbal. We talked a little about body language. Last time, we talked a lot about vocal, but we want to keep our voice nice and low. We also want to make sure we're not using vocal fry. So vocal fry is when we're like this. If you hear yourself using vocal fry, just speak louder.

• 47:58Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 47:59Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Volume immediately gets rid of vocal fry. So if you hear yourself going into that pattern where it's like a sizzling pan, just speak a little bit louder. Same thing, if you hear someone using vocal fry, you can ask them to speak up.

• 48:10Mel Robbins?

  Got it.

• 48:10Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So, nonverbal, we talked about. Vocal, we just talked about, we also talked about it a lot in the last episode, definitely go listen to that one, that was a fun one. Verbal, verbal is the last big section. So we talked about labels. One thing I didn't talk about is how highly influential people use verbal patterns that change people's behavior. Here's one of my favorite studies. I think about this study all the time. What they did is they brought participants into their lab, and they split them up.

• 48:36Mel Robbins?

  Into their lap?

• 48:37Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Lab.

• 48:38Mel Robbins?

  Oh, I thought you were just like, wow.

• 48:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's not that kind of study now.

• 48:41Mel Robbins?

  This is a study.

• 48:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I don't know what they'd be able to do in their laps, but we were talking about body language, so. Into their lab. And I should be careful with that word, now that you're doing it, it reminded me of that.

• 48:53Mel Robbins?

  Okay. I think we were talking about body language, so I'm thinking about bodies.

• 48:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  People were sitting in their laps? That's so interesting. We should do all of your interviews like that. Okay. They brought people into their lab, and they split them up into two different groups. The first group came into the lab, they were greeted by the researcher, and they were told, today, you are playing the community game. And they went to explain the rules of the game and they played the game. The second group came into the same lab, the same researcher, and they were told, today, you are playing the Wall Street game. But the trick was, the games were exactly the same. Everything was the same, except for that single word cue. So being told you were playing the community game versus being told you were playing the Wall Street game.

• 49:36Mel Robbins?

  So Wall Street versus community.

• 49:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That's it. Everything else was exactly the same.

• 49:39Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 49:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Guess what happened?

• 49:41Mel Robbins?

  People that were in the Wall Street game immediately like turned it on like, I'm going to win, and people who were told, we're going to play the community game, they turned it on to be connected.

• 49:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 49:52Mel Robbins?

  Am I right?

• 49:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're exactly right, but the outcome is a little bit sadder than that.

• 49:56Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 49:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But the outcome is sad. You're right. The Wall people wanted to win, which means they shared an average of one-third of their profits. In the community game, people shared an average of two-thirds of their profits.

• 50:08Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 50:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  In other words, people who were primed, where they heard the word, Wall Street, thought about sharing or being less communal. So they didn't want to share as much, they were primed by the idea of Wall Street.

• 50:21Mel Robbins?

  Wow.

• 50:22Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Whereas people who were told they were playing the community game actually acted more collaboratively.

• 50:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  This is an incredible study because it shows that we can change someone's behavior with one single word. So when you think about your calendar invites, what kind of calendar invites are you sending? I don't know about you, but I usually get call, meeting, one-on-one, conference, video call, Zoom. Those are sterile. They're not priming anyone for anything. You are actually telling someone, keep your brain on autopilot. This meeting will be exactly the same as all the others. What I want you to do is think about how can you play the community game? What do you want someone to feel, think, and behave like when they see that invite pop up in their inbox?

• 51:06Mel Robbins?

  What do you recommend?

• 51:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, collaborative session, goal meeting, mastery meeting, team session, team collaboration, creative hour. Right? Like, we can, they're not long, but we're using words that are actually setting people up to feel and behave in those ways. I don't know about you, I open my calendar multiple times a day. So if you send a calendar invite that is purposeful, that is actually setting them up for success, you are priming them to feel and act that way every single time they open their calendar. That breaks autopilot.

• 51:38Mel Robbins?

  I love that. We are implementing that. I'm yelling at everybody now. We're implementing that.

• 51:44Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. And no more emails that say, "Subject follow-up." Follow-up is the worst subject line in history. Worst line in history. Yes.

• 51:52Mel Robbins?

  Vanessa, I just love learning from you. And speaking of learning, I want you, if it's in reach, to grab a pen and a piece of paper while we take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. Also, make sure you share this episode with somebody that you love, because a little bit later in the episode, we are going to be playing a game that Vanessa says will change the way you think about productivity and focus forever. Stay with us.

• 52:20Mel Robbins?

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• 53:01Mel Robbins?

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• 53:46Mel Robbins?

  world-class spas. Eat at an award-winning restaurant with unmatched sunsets. Play championship golf courses surrounded by stunning Sonoran desert landscapes. And top it all off with beautiful desert scenery that instantly helps you disconnect. We spend so much time taking care of everyone else. Scottsdale is where you can finally take care of yourself. Visit unwindinsscottsdale.com to plan your trip this fall. One of the things I'm most proud of here at the Mel Robbins Podcast is that we're constantly growing and hiring new, amazing people to join the team. So let me introduce you to our new producer, Matt. Matt, you just moved to Boston, joined our team, furnished your new apartment with our sponsor, Wayfair. Be honest, how empty was this place when

• 54:31Mel Robbins?

  you got the keys?

• 54:32Speaker 02

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• 54:37Mel Robbins?

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• 54:45Mel Robbins?

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• 54:52Mel Robbins?

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• 55:22Mel Robbins?

  Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so thrilled that you're here. You and I are learning so much about leveling up and the habits of people who are highly influential. That's you. And so Vanessa, for someone, though, that is nervous about saying the wrong thing, are there certain words that people use that are highly influential? Or are there things that they talk about with other people?

• 55:47Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So for people who are nervous about what they're saying, what I would say is, you don't have to say more. You just have to be more purposeful with what you say. I think that's a common misconception of people who are nervous or introverted, is they, they don't want to have to say more to explain themselves. Actually, using very purposeful behavior cues in your language allows you to say less. Like, I can say, let's have our collaborative session tomorrow, and then invite you to that. You know exactly what that's gonna be. Right? I don't need to write a whole agenda. I don't need to have to explain it. You immediately know. Like, I don't have to say, so tomorrow, I would really like us to open up and talk and maybe share some. No. All you have to say is, let's do a collaborative session tomorrow. Or, that's highly warm, right?

• 56:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you want to be highly competent, let's do a brainstorm session tomorrow. Or, everyone, tomorrow, we're doing a power-through day. Tomorrow's a day, we're gonna whip out those tasks. We are gonna do it together. We're gonna conquer some of those tasks. We're gonna be super efficient.

• 56:41Mel Robbins?

  I'm wearing sweats. Let's go.

• 56:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, I'm ready to run. That changes your perception of the day. It also changes how you would act in the day. There's many studies that show the power of our words, especially behavior cues. But there's one other that I think demonstrates really the potential here. So what they did is they had participants come into their lab, and they gave them a basic task, like an intelligence task. And they had two different versions of the task. One had a set of sterile, formal directions, the kind of directions you always see. Please complete the following to the best of your ability. The second group had the same set of directions, but they sprinkled in a couple of achievement-oriented words. So according to the research, achievement-oriented words are words like master, success, win,

• 57:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  achieve. They wanted to know if just sprinkling in a couple of those words could change the way people performed. Here's what they found. Everyone who got the achievement-oriented words performed better on the task. They also, this is more important, spent double the amount of time working on the task. They had more motivation to the task, and they enjoyed the task more. This shows us that as humans, we are desperate for these cues. We want people to tell us how to act and think and behave, or set us up for success, because that gives us motivation. When we hear a word like win, or see a word like win, it makes us think more like winners. And that is a gift. It is a gift to use

• 58:09Vanessa Van Edwards?

  these words, to not be on autopilot with your emails, to not be on autopilot with your calendar invite. The onus is on us to wake up our words, to take interactions off of autopilot, and to gift people motivation.

• 58:21Mel Robbins?

  I'm ready to win. Let's go. I'm ready to win. Come on, Vanessa. Let's go. What about self-talk? How does a highly influential person talk to themselves? I mean, are they super critical? Because I know a lot of successful people that are very hard on themselves.

• 58:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So one, I think that a very simple, research-backed answer would be, use more behavior cues on yourself, right? Use words like win for yourself.

• 58:48Mel Robbins?

  Give me an example.

• 58:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, on my calendar, when I have to do my research, I'm in a research year right now, I don't label it Vanessa Block, right? Or Vanessa Writing Block, right? That is so boring, and that primes me to be like, oh, a research block, a writing block. No. It's Vanessa Winning Morning. Get it done, Vanessa. Power up, Vanessa. Right? All my alarms in my phone are like, super motivational of the words that I literally want to see. So one is, in your own calendar invites, in your own alarms, in your own self-talk, the more that you can use these cues for yourself, the better. That is my research-backed answer, and it works. It does work.

• 59:27Mel Robbins?

  How can you talk to anyone with ease and confidence?

• 59:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah, yes. Okay, first of all, transparency. So like, I think the more that we can talk about our own behavior, the better.

• 59:37Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 59:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But I think that how we talk to anyone with ease and confidence is by breaking autopilot. Conversations become stilted. Conversations become difficult when we're both of us are on autopilot. This sounds like this. Hey, how's it going?

• 59:53Mel Robbins?

  Good.

• 59:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Busy? Good. Right? Busy? Good. Oh, how about you? Yeah, busy but good. How are the kids? Oh, good.

• 1:00:01Mel Robbins?

  That's a fake smile, Vanessa. I can tell.

• 1:00:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right. So I think that well-meaning people, they ask what I would call safe questions, or autopilot questions, and they get the same answers. And so the only way, I think, to talk to you with ease and confidence is to break autopilot, and it's uncomfortable.

• 1:00:17Mel Robbins?

  Is there a question or two that you like?

• 1:00:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. So if you are willing with me, anyone who's listening, to stretch a little bit, I think we have to break out of the how are you, what do you do, where are you from. In fact, I would like you to go on a diet with those questions. You are no longer going to ask those questions. You are immediately triggering autopilot with those questions. If I ask someone, what do you do, they've answered a million times before. Instead, I want you to ask, what's been good? What's good? What's good this week? Or you ask me this in the interview, working on anything exciting recently? So what's good? Working on anything exciting recently? And specifically with what do you do? That question is problematic for me, because I think that what you're really asking is what are you worth? You're trying to put someone in a box. And I get it, we want to understand where people come

• 1:01:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  from. It is much kinder to ask someone, working on anything exciting these days?

• 1:01:10Mel Robbins?

  Well, it also means if you're like, working on applications to go to school, or you're working on training for something, or I'm working on not losing it with my children, or...

• 1:01:21Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, exactly. That question gives someone permission to tell you what they are excited about. And that is a gift. So when you ask, what do you do, you're actually putting someone in a very specific box. So replace how are you with what's good, or what's been the highlight of your week, or what's the highlight of your day. Replace what do you do with working on anything exciting, or have anything coming up that's exciting, or have any fun plans coming up. They're subtle switches, but they make a huge difference. Because when you ask someone...

• 1:01:51Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Working on anything exciting, their brain has to search for excitement, excitement, excitement. You just gave them a gift of optimism. You just ask their brain to think of good things, which is such a beautiful way to interact. As opposed to, I hear a lot, been busy? Oh, no, no, never ask busy, because if you ask someone, been busy? Oh, now I think about how busy I am. How busy you are. It's so true. It's so true. And then I literally talk about how busy I am. Yes, so. Instead of the thing that I'm excited about. Exactly. And it actually triggers this negative loop of only talking about bad things. So, one, never open on autopilot. Two, try to talk about things that are exciting. And three, if you can, you want to level up the conversation. How? I think a big mistake that people make is they ask too deep questions too quickly.

• 1:02:35Vanessa Van Edwards?

  So like, I don't want you to be like, what's your biggest dream in life? Right? Like, an introvert is gonna run. So we did a research experiment, a speed networking experiment, where we assigned six conversation starters to our speed networkers. It was 500 speed networkers across three different events, and we had them rate the quality of their conversation. We found some conversation starters bounced to the top and some went to the bottom. There was one that almost broke my data. And it was because people either gave it a five, they loved it, they thought it was the best conversation they ever had, or they gave it a one, they hated it. And I was like, what is going on? Do you know what question it was? Of course, what is it? What's your story? Oh, I hate that question. Okay. I'm like, which version of me?

• 1:03:18Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I feel like I'm in a therapy session, like, what? Okay, so introverts and ambiverts hate this question. What's an ambivert? Oh, an ambivert is someone who's in between introvert and extrovert. They're called social introverts or introverted extroverts. So an ambivert, they can, yeah, I know, that's you, yeah. So you're an ambivert. So it's someone who can dial up into extroversion when needed, but you also need a lot of recharge time. Like, I'm sure you're gonna like, after a really social event, you have to like, uh, have nothing, that's why you live far away, right? Like, same with me. Like, I live, I don't want to talk to anyone for certain parts of the day. So ambiverts need a lot of recharge time, they can be extroverted when they need to. So introverts hate that question, because they're like, am I in a therapy session? This is horrible. Extroverts love that question. They're like, how much time do you have?

• 1:04:03Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Should I start with the childhood or my college years? Like, they are thrilled, tell you. So, in leveling up conversation, be very careful with that question. If you're with an extrovert, that's a gift. They love that question, and you want to give them lots of time to talk about themselves. If you're with an ambivert or introvert, or you're not sure, for heaven's sakes, do not ask that question. So instead, I recommend safe questions. The highest rated questions in our little experiment were, what personal passion project are you working on? What was the highlight of your week? Those were two of the highest rated questions. I like the second one. Right? Or have any fun plans coming up? Those are the high, still safe, right? If you just met someone or you're just catching up, those are all safe questions. So that's how, you want to think very carefully about the questions you ask. I love that.

• 1:04:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You have really interesting research about where you sit at work. Yes, yes. Okay, so this is not my research, but it's research that I found that I was like, how does everyone not know about this? 58,000 working hours across 11 different companies. So this is a massive amount of data, and these are companies in different industries, okay? What they found was that if you sit within 25 feet of a high performer, you improve your own performance by 15%. Wow. Yes. What this implies is that our performance is contagious, that highly effective, highly charismatic people are contagious in a good way. They actually lift others up.

• 1:05:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  When we see someone who's sitting in nice, high confident body language, we are also more likely to sit in confident body language. So all of these cues are actually making you be the contagious high performer, but you also can hang out with high performers. And so I think that that power, you can get it from others, great, and you can also give it to others, both. I also understand that the research shows that the negative is true, that if you sit in the wrong place or near, like, the wrong person, how do you even know? Like, so what are we looking for? If you sit next to a low performer, it decreases your performance by 30%. What? Yes. Let me break it down. So, this was, study was done, they brought people into their lab, and again, they split them up into two different groups.

• 1:06:14Vanessa Van Edwards?

  One group, they wear a sweatsuit, and they had them run on the treadmill and sweat into this sweatsuit. Okay. This is pretty gross. The second group wore sweatsuits and then did, were first time skydivers. They had them jump out of planes wearing the sweatsuit. Then they had two samples of sweat, non-fear sweat and fear sweat. Okay. Right? They took these samples and they had unsuspecting participants smell the samples. They had no idea what they were smelling, but they had them smell these sweaty armpits of these folks, and they put them in fMRI machines and they measured their brain patterns. They found that everyone who smelled the fear sweat, even though they had no idea what

• 1:06:57Vanessa Van Edwards?

  they were smelling, caught the fear. Their own fear centers lit up. What they think is happening is that we are attuned as humans, if someone else is feeling adrenaline and cortisol, that leaks out and we catch other people's fear. So I think that kind of last channel of this is if you are secretly afraid. At work. I think that we leak that out in micro cues, small nonverbal cues, chemical cues, and that is contagious. So, a lot of this is about getting yourself right first. Your day starting with, what gives me energy?

• 1:07:42Vanessa Van Edwards?

  What socially gives me energy? What work gives me energy? How can I self-talk to myself to set myself up like a winner? Because I know that if you don't, you become more negatively contagious. You have also incredible research about specific places you should stand. Yes. Where should I stand at a networking event? Okay, so we did, at our speed networking events, we had kind of like a pre-session where we observed the foot patterns of people on this map. We had a map of the event and we tracked where people were walking. Interesting. And we noticed patterns across the events, so it was across multiple different events. There were really good places to stand, and there were really bad places to stand. There were social traps and there were like, social honeypots where you wanted to stand.

• 1:08:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, this is the mistake that most people make in networking events. They stand right at the entrance. So they don't know a lot of people, so they get there and they're like, I'm just gonna stand right by the door because I don't know anyone, and I'm gonna try to get someone as they come in. Uh-uh. This produced the shortest conversations. We literally watched as people had these really little awkward micro conversations. Why? If someone comes into a room, they need to get themselves situated. They might have to go to the bathroom, they want to get a drink, they want to get something to eat. They also want to scope the room themselves. If you pounce on someone, I call it the starting zone, so if you pounce someone in that start zone, anywhere near the door, anywhere near the check-in table, anywhere near the coats, you are gonna get someone when they are not ready for a high-quality connection. They're gonna be like, uh-huh, autopilot, autopilot, uh-huh, I'm just gonna get something to drink.

• 1:09:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You are not gonna be able to make a connection in that start zone, so do not. A thousand percent correct. Right. And that's a mistake that a lot of introverts will make. They stand there because they don't know anyone and they're afraid to penetrate the room, and then introvert goes, why did I even come? I'm not even having good conversations. And you'll get that sort of deer in the headlights. Look, if you watch people, I love to sit and observe people, if you watch people when they walk to a networking event, they're very wide-eyed. And that is because from an evolutionary standpoint, they're trying to take in the room, who do they know? Where's the host? Where's the bathroom? Where did I put my coat? Is there food? Right? If someone is pounced on, when they're doing that kind of wide-eyed survey of glances, they are literally like, chemically not ready yet. Wow. But they're not settled enough.

• 1:09:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Where do I stand? Okay, so the best place, this is where the longest conversations happens and the most business cards were exchanged, was right as people exit the bar. Here's what would happen. People were nervous, they entered the start zone, then they go, I gotta get a drink, I gotta get a drink. Whether that's coffee or tea, whatever, people like to anchor themselves with something in their hand, it gives them something to do psychologically. So they wait in line, and they're kind of like waiting, they're thinking, oh, I'm here. And you'll literally physically see, as people are waiting in the drink line, like, they're like, it's like they're here. Then they get their drink and they turn to the room, and you'll notice, that's when people are ready to connect. That 10 seconds of, I've got my drink in hand, took my first sip, and I've turned to the room, they're like, I'm ready, I'm ready, I'm ready.

• 1:10:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If you are standing right there, you are a social savior. Because if you don't find someone to talk to in that couple seconds, you're like, oh, I don't know who to talk to. But if you're right there and you're like, hey, that looks great, what kind of wine did you get? Or, oh, hey, what's good today? Seems like a fun event. You have just saved someone from having the awkward experience of not having anyone to talk to. So right as people exit the bar. Wow. Have you studied, like, social events and where would you advise somebody to stand if you're single, or, you know, you're going to an event alone? Yes. If you're going to an event alone, I do highly recommend staying in that, that exit the bar. The other place for a single person, or if you're going to an event alone, is in the eye line of the host or the most connected person. Here's why.

• 1:11:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  If the host can see you, just, you don't have to be in the conversation, but if they can see you, and they're like, oh my gosh, Rachel, I've been desperate for you to meet my friend Jasmine, come on over. You are easily able to be connected to. So I always try to be in eye line of the host if I don't know where I'm going. You also can stand in the eye line of the most extroverted social person, because they love to make connections. That is their strength, that is their social strength. That is a gift to an extrovert. So, do you know where you should stand at a wedding? Oh, I haven't studied it. Tell me! The door that the caterers are coming out of with the trays.

• 1:12:05Mel Robbins?

  That's always where you'll find Mel Robbins. Get over here with the lamb, child. Meatballs.

• 1:12:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  By the way, it's so funny you say that. That is my favorite place to stand because I'm always hangry. And what's funny is when I stand there, I say to the other people, caterers coming out the store, what are you looking for?

• 1:12:22Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, exactly. Come on over here.

• 1:12:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'll be a co-conspirator. I'll be like, oh, you're looking for the Tino's grilled cheese? Got you, I got you. I saw one of those, I got you. You actually become friends with the people who are hangry like you.

• 1:12:31Mel Robbins?

  Yes, exactly. So what is your favorite productivity exercise? How do we increase our focus?

• 1:12:38Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so I have a very unique approach for activity and I want to play a little game.

• 1:12:42Mel Robbins?

  Let's do it.

• 1:12:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Play a little game? Okay, so if you're listening, if you can get a pen and paper, that would be great. If not, just use your memory. We'll, we'll play a little game together. So what I want you to do, I call this alphabet work. This is my favorite productivity exercise. It's my favorite team building exercise. It should, if you activate it, completely change the way that you work. So at the top of your piece of paper, I want you to write A, B, C, and D with four columns.

• 1:13:06Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so you're just making four columns. One says A, one says B, one says C, one says D.

• 1:13:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Mel Robbins?

  Got it.

• 1:13:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A, B, C, D. Okay, so what we're going to do is we're going to break your tasks and your work to energy and your social energy into A, B, C, D work. Your A work, we're going to start there. Your A work is only the tasks that you are better at than most people.

• 1:13:30Mel Robbins?

  Okay, so A is what I would get an A on.

• 1:13:32Vanessa Van Edwards?

  A is what you would get an A plus on. It gives you energy. You hit flow. You are exceptional at it without any exceptions.

• 1:13:41Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:13:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And you might even be known for it. So I want you to list different tasks on your A work.

• 1:13:47Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:13:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I also want you to list some social energy tasks. So where do you thrive? Like, what is your favorite way to socialize? Who are your A people that you just like feel like yourself, you're authentic? They give you energy, you look forward to it? So I want you to put some of those things on there. Tasks on top, energy at the bottom, social energy on the bottom. B.

• 1:14:07Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:14:07Vanessa Van Edwards?

  B is where my smart people get tripped up.

• 1:14:11Mel Robbins?

  What's B?

• 1:14:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  The work you're pretty good at, but you're not the best at it. They're not tasks that you hit flow. They're tasks that you can get through pretty easily. They're not tasks you're known for, but they're not tasks that you're bad at. This is the hardest column.

• 1:14:27Mel Robbins?

  Why is this the hardest?

• 1:14:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  It's because we have to distinguish between tasks that we're exceptionally good at, that we hit flow at, and tasks that we're pretty good at. And smart people have a lot of things on their B list, but not always a lot of things on their A list. And smart people can get away with doing B things for a long time. Same thing with your social energy. So what are some socializing things that you're, you like? You don't love it, you like it, it's okay. You don't feel drained from it, but you know, like you can do it. Same with people, you enjoy spending time with them, but you would have to give a little bit of social energy to spend time with them. So your B people.

• 1:15:02Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:15:02Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Spend some time doing that. C work.

• 1:15:04Mel Robbins?

  C.

• 1:15:05Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, C work is work you are average at. You're not known for it, you're a little clunky with it.

• 1:15:11Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 1:15:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You can, C work is marked by you're a little embarrassed. A little bit embarrassed by it.

• 1:15:18Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:15:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, you're like, oh, I'm not so great at that. I wouldn't want people to see it really well. So that's your C work is your average. D work should be the obvious one. D work is work you are bad at.

• 1:15:30Mel Robbins?

  Got it.

• 1:15:30Vanessa Van Edwards?

  D is work you are worse than most people at this task. You should not be doing it. You are slower than most people. You make more mistakes in this work. Your D people are also the people who take away your energy. They drain you. They're the people who push your boundaries, who challenge you in a bad way. They're people who you dread seeing. Hopefully that's not a long list. So where do you feel like I am surviving, not thriving? Where do you feel like you just are not your best self? That's D. Okay, here's why this is so important. Your day, your entire day should be about optimizing your A work and giving away your B, C, and D work.

• 1:16:13Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Your entire day should also be, I know, it's a little uncomfortable.

• 1:16:18Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:16:19Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Your entire day should be about figuring out the people you work with. What is their A work? And gifting their A work away. A mistake that people make on teams or when partnering up is they partner with people who have the same strengths as them. You want to partner with people, you want to hire people, you want to work with people, you want to learn from people who have different work than you, where their B and C work could maybe turn into your A work. So your day should be about optimizing your A work, learning to see, could I level up my B work? Could I learn something or use a tool to turn a B work into my A work? And how can I give away most of my C and D work?

• 1:17:01Mel Robbins?

  I mean, this is really cool. I am looking at my listen as you're doing this and you're listening along. I'm just going to try to recap so that I want to make sure that you get this.

• 1:17:11Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes, and if you're willing to give examples, I think it would be very interesting to hear them.

• 1:17:14Mel Robbins?

  Okay.

• 1:17:16Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I'm happy to give mine too, if that's helpful.

• 1:17:17Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, I think we should. So do you want to start with A? Okay, so I am fantastic at giving ideas, ideation.

• 1:17:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:17:26Mel Robbins?

  Like, if you want somebody to open a can of worms and like to start flying ideas and getting everybody off track, call Mel Robbins. I can literally ideate better than anybody on the planet. You think that you're stuck? No, you're not. You think there's no way around it? Yes, there is. You think that there's an obstacles? I see an opportunity.

• 1:17:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And I would call that motivational. So ideation and motivational.

• 1:17:48Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God. And it's also like in content. What about this? What about that? What about the other thing? What if we did this? Oh, this would be great. Like, I'll come out of this episode and I will have 17 different topics for us to then go do something on.

• 1:18:00Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so here's what's critical. Busy people like you, you often give that away. So as you get busy and you're doing back-to-back interviews, don't give away the ideation time after your interview. Don't give away content ideation to someone else in your team because that's your A work. And so that can happen as we level up or we become managers, is we end up accidentally giving away our best work. So make sure you, there's someone on your team that you are ideating with.

• 1:18:30Mel Robbins?

  That's great.

• 1:18:31Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You're not giving it away.

• 1:18:32Mel Robbins?

  Tracy Mertz sitting over there. Second thing, business development.

• 1:18:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah.

• 1:18:36Mel Robbins?

  I have a hundred percent close rate in meetings, especially around speaking. Hundred percent close rate. If I have an in-person meeting or Zoom meeting, the deal is done, period.

• 1:18:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, so this is really important because what happens when you get busy and successful is you have an agent or manager, right? You're not always in the room.

• 1:18:53Mel Robbins?

  Correct.

• 1:18:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so that means you have to hire someone whose A work is that. And they know that if it's a particularly hard close, they can bring you in.

• 1:19:01Mel Robbins?

  Yep.

• 1:19:01Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Right, you cannot give that away.

• 1:19:03Mel Robbins?

  Creative direction. I just don't have any time for it. So I was a film major in college and just spent my entire college career in an editing room and I love that. I have zero time for it.

• 1:19:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Is there a way you could do it one morning a month?

• 1:19:22Mel Robbins?

  Probably.

• 1:19:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think that's the question is, do you have enough other A work where it's okay? Or do you want to say, I'm going to carve out one block to charge me?

• 1:19:31Mel Robbins?

  Probably. Yeah, well, we're giving, I mean, I do it all the time. I just feel like it's, it's, and then recording. I mean, obviously the skills in terms of being able to just turn on a camera and go and coaching.

• 1:19:41Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:19:42Mel Robbins?

  On the fly.

• 1:19:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:19:43Mel Robbins?

  Would be another thing in the A. And then in terms of social, like my top thing is dinner at home.

• 1:19:49Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Ah.

• 1:19:50Mel Robbins?

  I literally, I love.

• 1:19:53Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Love it.

• 1:19:54Mel Robbins?

  To have dinner at home.

• 1:19:56Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And so you would know, like, no, if, so if you're listening to this and you're hearing Mel talk about this, a recipe for burnout would be if next month you see a week where you happen to have a bunch of dinners out.

• 1:20:08Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:20:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  You would probably, at the very end of that week, go, gosh, I'm so wiped. I'm so drained. I don't like my life. I don't, you begin to question bigger things, but actually it was that you did a little bit too much of that C or D work that week. That's okay, we can know that, like if you have a busy travel week, but it's critically important to know your patterns, to know that if you were to miss dinner at home a couple of nights in a row, it would probably trigger your burnout, but you wouldn't know why.

• 1:20:34Mel Robbins?

  Oh, for sure, for sure. And then in terms of B, I literally put everything else.

• 1:20:41Mel Robbins?

  That is, and then I've got a couple of things on C and D, which is I'm horrendous at organizing.

• 1:20:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay.

• 1:20:47Mel Robbins?

  I'm horrendous at being on time. I do not know how to make an Excel sheet. My business partner's job, Christine, is protect the team for Mel. Not because I'm a jerk, but I destroy structure.

• 1:21:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Love it, love it. Okay. So, the recipe for anti-burnout for Mel is looking at your task list for your week, for your day, for your month. Everything that is not in that A column should not be on your list.

• 1:21:18Mel Robbins?

  And we now know the script, thanks to you, which is Christine, I hear that you need me to create an Excel spreadsheet for you.

• 1:21:25Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yeah, I am a spreadsheet disaster.

• 1:21:28Mel Robbins?

  Yes, I'm a spreadsheet disaster. You want to see roadkill on a page? Ask me to put something in Excel.

• 1:21:36Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:21:37Mel Robbins?

  You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna hand it over to Sawyer on our team, or Emily on our team, or Dara loves a good spreadsheet and a presentation.

• 1:21:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And in the meanwhile, I'm gonna make us a lot of likes and views in my interview later today.

• 1:21:50Mel Robbins?

  Correct. I love that.

• 1:21:52Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Exactly.

• 1:21:53Mel Robbins?

  That is masterful.

• 1:21:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And here's the thing, so if your entire focus is more A work, less B, C, and D work, every day, every month, in your general tasks, when you say yes to projects, when you're looking at a project, people tend to think about the end goal, right? For example, so many people tell me, Vanessa, I want to write books. I say, really? Do you love being alone at a computer all day? Do you love that? Oh, you want to write a book? Do you want to spend three months writing and then years marketing it? Do you like that? And I always say that because I'm like, let's get real on what you like. If you want to write a book, does your ego want to write the book? Do you want to be able to say you're an author? Do you want to be able to share your words with people? Or do you love writing?

• 1:22:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Because those are two different things. So for every project, you should do all the tasks, and then how much of those tasks are A, B, C, or D work? Sometimes you have to do D work. Sometimes you have to do C work. Know it. Assertively own it. There is D work on my team, where it's all of our D work. And you know what I do? We have a D work day. Say, okay, everyone, we're ordering our favorite lunch, we're pumping some music, it's a D work day, we hate it, sleep in, we're coming in at 10:00 AM, and then we're gonna grind it out, we're gonna do our D work together. When D work is acknowledged for yourself, as well as your team, it helps us feel like, okay, we're in it together. I know what my D work is, and there's some D work I still have to do, and I don't like

• 1:23:24Vanessa Van Edwards?

  it. But I know what it is, I build in buffers, I have battery recharge. So it's about energy management.

• 1:23:30Mel Robbins?

  You know what I also immediately saw is, it's like getting everybody, all right, guys, let's all clean up after dinner together. Nobody wants to do it, let's do it together.

• 1:23:40Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But we love eating dinner, so we gotta clean it up.

• 1:23:42Mel Robbins?

  Yes.

• 1:23:43Vanessa Van Edwards?

  And let's turn on music and make it as fast and fun as we can.

• 1:23:45Mel Robbins?

  So, what do highly influential people do at night?

• 1:23:48Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm, ooh, at night? Hmm, I think having a pause moment at the end of the day. Now, I haven't actually studied this, but I think that highly effective people give themselves a lot of time to think. Like, when I study historical highly effective people, you'll see that in their daily patterns, they have a lot of space. They're not busy, they're not burnt out, they're not working until the moment they shut their eyes. And so I think the end of the day is a time to look back and be like, oh, good job, I did a lot of A work, or, phew, I did do a lot of B work today, and I am tired, or I did not have a good lunch with her. So I think that pausing is the most important thing we can do at the end of the day.

• 1:24:31Mel Robbins?

  How do highly effective people set goals?

• 1:24:33Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm.

• 1:24:34Mel Robbins?

  How would you recommend, if you want to be really effective and level up your success, that you go about even thinking about your goals for the day, or the week, or the year, or the decade?

• 1:24:46Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm, using A, B, C, D work to break a goal into tasks and timeline is very important. I also think that when you're thinking about your goals, are you gonna enjoy the process, the means, as well as the end? I see so many folks who are highly ambitious, they set these big goals, at the end, they'll be happy. And this is those if, then statements, which I think are a killer for burnout, and a killer for happiness, which is, if I am a bestselling author, then I will be happy. If I lose 20 pounds, then I will be happy. If I become a mother, then I will be happy.

• 1:25:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is a goal that's setting you up for burnout, because you are saying to myself, you cannot be happy until you achieve that goal. And so I think when we're talking about highly effective people, they enjoy the process of getting that goal as much as the goal. So that could be, I want to find workouts I love every day, and find workout partners who make me laugh, so I can lose 20 pounds.

• 1:25:53Mel Robbins?

  Yeah, you just sparked something as I was listening to you, because I was thinking, wow, that's a great way to think about it, that I'm gonna lose 20 pounds, and I'm gonna figure out how to have fun and enjoy it as much as I can while I do it.

• 1:26:08Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes. Because then, if you achieve the goal, fantastic.

• 1:26:11Mel Robbins?

  Right.

• 1:26:12Vanessa Van Edwards?

  But your goal is actually happy in the moment of actually doing it. So I would say, when you're setting goals, what can you do to enjoy the means of that goal, so you're not delaying your happiness?

• 1:26:21Mel Robbins?

  How important is it for a high achiever to have something big that they're working on?

• 1:26:27Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I think essential. I think essential. I think that everyone should have a quest. I think everyone should have a quest. I know that's a very big statement, but all the happiest people I know, the most successful people I know, however you define success, whether that's they're the richest, whether they're the most famous on social media, however you define, they all have some big quest. And that could be traveling to every country in the world, that could be raising three children who find their passions, that could be learning to cook, and they have microquests and big quests. And so I think if you don't have some kind of quest that you're working on right now, it's hard to find meaning. I think meaning is incredibly important for giving you purpose behind your days and your actions.

• 1:27:11Mel Robbins?

  Amazing. So what is your final word to the person that has been listening and hanging on to your every word?

• 1:27:20Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Hmm, what I haven't said is, if you're burnt out, if you're stuck, if you're feeling like you're underestimated or overlooked, not getting what you want, it doesn't mean you're not trying hard enough. It actually probably means you're trying really, really hard. And it's okay to try a little bit less hard, and just do it in different ways. And so, one, you're doing enough, you're trying very hard, you are good enough. What I would say to think about is, are there some things that you can say no to that is a gift to someone else, that is their A work? And can you take back some things that would gift you energy, so that you can work in

• 1:28:04Vanessa Van Edwards?

  a way that sets you up for success and sets others up for success, without having to work yourself until you can no longer think that you are working enough, you are good enough, you just have to try something a little different?

• 1:28:17Mel Robbins?

  I love that. And I also love the piece about figuring out who in your life you're giving time to that you're ambivalent about.

• 1:28:26Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Yes.

• 1:28:27Mel Robbins?

  And take that time back for yourself.

• 1:28:28Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Take it back.

• 1:28:30Mel Robbins?

  Vanessa Van Edwards, holy smokes, I like you.

• 1:28:34Vanessa Van Edwards?

  I like you. I like you.

• 1:28:36Mel Robbins?

  And I like you too. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I more than like you. I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to take absolutely everything you just learned, and take up space, and use these strategies to level up how you're showing up, how you're speaking, how you're supporting yourself, and go create an incredible life. I'll see you in a few days. Hey, it's Mel. All right, hold on. I love it.

• 1:29:21Mel Robbins?

  Oh, my God, are you okay?

• 1:29:23Vanessa Van Edwards?

  That is the worst sound. That's the sound.

• 1:29:27Mel Robbins?

  What up, bud?

• 1:29:29Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Now, we get comfortable, you guys are buddies. We feel that we're old friends. We feel it.

• 1:29:37Mel Robbins?

  Awesome, awesome.

• 1:29:39Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Oh, yeah. Here we go. I know how this game works.

• 1:29:42Mel Robbins?

  Yes, ma'am. Where were we? Oh, we're doing this.

• 1:29:45Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Okay, great, great, great.

• 1:29:46Mel Robbins?

  Okay. I want to do one more, um, okay, keep going.

• 1:29:50Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Woo, woo, woo, woo.

• 1:29:53Mel Robbins?

  Nice.

• 1:29:54Vanessa Van Edwards?

  Woo.

• 1:29:55Mel Robbins?

  We did it. Oh, and one more thing, and no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend, I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

• 1:30:36Speaker 03

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• 1:30:47Mel Robbins?

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