Ken Rideout On Why Everything You Want Is On The Other Side Of Hard

Ken Rideout is a masters world champion marathon runner, recovering opioid addict, and the author of the new memoir, “Everything You Want Is on the Other Side of Hard.” This conversation explores the childhood trauma Ken spent decades outpacing, the addiction that nearly destroyed him, his wife Shelby's cancer battle, and the paradox that the very things that propelled him to extraordinary heights became Achilles heels. We discuss his relentless mindset, the role of pain and suffering in igniting willingness, and why the real obstacle was never the competition. Along the way, we arrive at a truth familiar to every addict: self-awareness will avail you nothing. It's what you do with it that matters. Ken is a real one. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today's Sponsors: BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Momentous: High-caliber human performance products for sleep, focus, longevity, and more. For listeners of the show, Momentous is offering up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Ken Rideout?

  Extreme discipline has given me the life I wanted, but my kids are like, "My dad is crazy because I'm constantly on them." Can't be easy to be your kid. No, it's not. And what they see is intensity and aggressiveness, and I don't want to put this burden on them.

• 1:20Rich Roll?

  We have Ken Riedel, one of the world's preeminent masters athletes.

• 1:25Ken Rideout?

  A former prison guard, Wall Street trader.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  He has overcome addiction. He's been put in that fight-or-flight situation, and he's always picked fight.

• 1:33Ken Rideout?

  There's an element of me that's tortured, and my protective mechanism is to have a hard exterior. All of the hard-charging, driving, and trying to win and be the best is just an extension of wanting validation. There's something missing in my life that I have to do, which is...

• 1:53Rich Roll?

  Ken Rideout, you made it here. You're back in the studio. Round three. This is going to be a targeted conversation. We're here to celebrate Ken's brand new book called The Other Side of Hard. You did an incredible job on this book. It's memoir essentially, but it's also interlaced with all of these kind of,

• 2:15Rich Roll?

  like life learnings and wisdom about like how to approach obstacles and how to get unstuck. And we're going to parse all of that. But before we even go into it, I want to kind of land on the obsession piece right now. Because so much of the book is about your obsession, your obsession with,

• 2:37Rich Roll?

  becoming someone in the world, becoming this master's world champion, winning races. Initially, it was finance and this is a moving target for you. But underneath it all, there's always this like layer of obsession that's driving everything. So talk a little bit about like your relationship with that.

• 2:58Ken Rideout?

  I think growing up the way I did around, then people will see in the book around like drug addicts and basically mediocre to sub mediocre people. It was, and I don't know where it came from. I have a brother who's 11 months younger than me, who never went, didn't finish high school, never had a job as a career criminal in and out of prison.

• 3:17Ken Rideout?

  And I come to the realization through writing the book, like I hated him as a kid, hated him. I was like, why is this kid behaving like this? Because that was my worst fear. I don't want to be a loser. I wanted to be a winner. I wanted to be respected. And what I came to realize is like, he was just probably had some mental health issues and was dealing with parents that probably didn't have the tools to understand, identify and cope with those problems. And as a result, he was just floundering and being around that kind of behavior and that kind of chaos, like my personality is what it is. Like it was the same then as it is now. Like I was like, I don't want to be mediocre. Like being like the people around me scared me because I just saw them going nowhere. They weren't experiencing life.

• 4:01Ken Rideout?

  As a kid, I was like adventurous, like I wanted to like go to other countries and travel and do the things that I ended up doing, live in London, you know, go skiing in Europe and do these things. And I didn't have any role model for that. And there was no like, I didn't have a friend down the street, like the most successful person in my neighborhood was like, well, the guy was a, a, a mailman and his wife was a stay at home mom, stay at home wife, which was odd to me. That was like, they were like the, the model of success. So it wasn't like I was looking at people flying private and driving Mercedes Benz. And I was like, that's what I want. I just wanted a lack of chaos. I wanted the life that I have now. I literally wanted the life that I've created for myself. And if anything,

• 4:46Ken Rideout?

  I would say the obsession it, or the torture that I deal with is feeling like if I let off the gas and stop obsessing over continuing to succeed. It's like I said, every time something good happens, I can easily convince myself that that was lucky and it's never going to happen again. And I have to stay on the gas. And that's something that I'm hyper aware of and have worked on like extensively and spent time, you know, I spent almost a week at the onsite workshops, which for people who don't know is like, like the Hoffman Institute or Bridges. It's like a trauma healing center. And it was like an intense five day eye opener for me because I didn't think I had childhood trauma. And even saying

• 5:27Ken Rideout?

  that, like, I don't, I never ever like, I'm, I'm almost afraid to identify myself as a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm, I'm like, I'm, shit happens to me and I can control my reactions. And, but it doesn't, it doesn't change the fact that traumatic things happen. And you know, the expression, the most traumatic thing that happened to you is the most traumatic thing that happened to you, whether it's sexual abuse or getting bullied. And for whatever reason, my brain doesn't process trauma very well. And I hold on to it and it, it, it, it like grates on me. And going to onsite forced me to sit with my own thoughts without distractions, without a phone. I mean, I was such a dope. I didn't know that

• 6:07Ken Rideout?

  like they were taking my phone. I think I was naive to what was coming. And I was like, I blocked it out of my brain. For years, I'd have appointments with psychologists and just, it's completely out of character for me to just forget meetings and not put them in my calendar. But subconsciously, I would do it almost weekly to the point where I'm like, this is crazy. I've never had anything like this where this kind of psycho semantic reaction is happening where I'm like purposely blocking out the meeting, but I don't remember until an hour after the meeting. Oh shit, I missed my meeting with my therapist because I didn't want to deal with it. And go into On site and saying like, look, I don't think I have trauma. And then sitting with the woman and having her break it all down for me was like a punch in the face.

• 6:50Ken Rideout?

  That was like really difficult and super uncomfortable.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  The way I see it is you definitely suffered a tremendous amount of childhood trauma, in my opinion. You grew up essentially impoverished. You suffered abuse, bullying. Then there's the addiction piece, which is a coping mechanism for that trauma that, you know, serves its purpose.

• 7:13Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  And that's why us addicts, you know, kind of end up picking up in the ways that we do. And then you get sober, you discover running and running becomes a new way to cope with this childhood trauma that you've compartmentalized.

• 7:29Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  And in your mind, or in the addict brain, the solution to this problem is just to run more and run further and run faster. And you ran as fast as you possibly could. You ran so fast that you became the Masters World Champion, you know, the fastest 50 year old to ever run a marathon. And you crossed the Gobi Desert and won that race and all these epic stories, you know, we've talked about on prior episodes and are in the book. But ultimately, this is a means to try to control something that's uncontrollable, to create certainty as a response to that chaos that you experienced. Like, I'm going to control my environment. If I'm obsessive enough and I train hard enough, then everything will be fine. Right?

• 8:15Rich Roll?

  But it doesn't matter how fast you were. You were, you were the fastest in the world, but you still weren't fast enough to outpace your past, which eventually catches up to you. And what's interesting, and I don't think we really fully explored this last time you were here, is the fact that all of this stuff starts to come up in the aftermath of all of your financial and athletic success. You've done it all. You're at the top of the mountain. You've got all the medals and, you know, all the stuff. And then you start to sink into a depression. You have suicidal ideation and you're having, you know, issues in your marriage. All of these things are coming up, which must have been very confusing.

• 8:56Rich Roll?

  Because Ken, you know, like, you're not signing up to go to onsite on your own, like, because everything's great. So I want to understand how all of this stuff started to come to the surface. And, you know, what that experience was like and how you made this decision like, okay, now I really have to like face this.

• 9:14Ken Rideout?

  Again, I never want to be mediocre. I don't want to be bad at anything. And that includes being a bad husband, a bad dad, a bad friend, a like bad to myself. Which I, my concern for myself always seems to come last. And that's part of the problem. And what I realized is, just like with getting sober, at some point I come to the realization like, this isn't getting better unless I do something about it. And I, I wish that it was easy, but you've hit the nail right on the head. All of these things are coping mechanisms and trying to control the narrative. And I'm trying to impress people that I don't even know, or I don't even like, I don't know who I'm trying to impress. Or if it's I'm trying to impress myself. But I'm clearly like trying to fill a void in my life.

• 9:57Ken Rideout?

  And I realized that, just like with getting sober, like, I can't do this by myself. I don't know, I don't know why I'm feeling like this, but I should not be thinking that suicide is like an answer to my, to my problems. And as a result, I wasn't really having problems with my marriage. I was having problems with myself and unfortunately, my wife lives with me and she gets the brunt of my

• 10:20Ken Rideout?

  emotional struggles. And it, the way it manifests itself is by trying to control everything around the house. Who left this effing milk out on the counter? Who left the garage door opener, the garage door open is like frigging coyotes in the garage, you know? And as a result of not having control, I would lash out at everyone in the house. And I realized like, this is, I am becoming a person that I'm ashamed of. And I just, I had a friend, actually a guy I bought my house from who played for the Tennessee Titans, a super nice guy, Chris Spencer. He, he had said to me that he had gone there to onsite. And I knew enough about Hoffman Institute from people like Rob and Andrew Huberman and listening to people like yourself and talking about all these different options. And I was like,

• 11:05Ken Rideout?

  I'm never unaware of my problems. I'm not, I'm never unaware that I'm running is a coping mechanism. It's not like I'm like blissfully unaware and just like trying to fill voids. Like I'm hyper aware.

• 11:16Rich Roll?

  But like in, as they say in AA, self-awareness will avail you nothing. It's one thing to be aware of it and it's a very different thing to actually confront it and, you know, do the work and unpack the whole thing.

• 11:27Ken Rideout?

  No, that's a great point. And my wife would remind me all the time, just because you've identified what the problem is here right now, doesn't make it right. What are you gonna do about it? And then eventually I was like, I've gotta do something about this. And going to onsite was a good first step, but I would be lying if I didn't say, if I said it was a cure-all. But I will say for the week, for a few weeks after leaving there, I was on like cloud nine. I was euphoric. I was like high on life. And eventually, like anything, if you don't do the work and keep on it and, and, and integrate the therapy into your life, it all falls to the wayside. And, and that has to a certain extent happened. And going through the process with this book and the anxiety and stress I've been feeling

• 12:08Ken Rideout?

  with this book is like, that's now on my list of things that I have to do again is like, go back for a tune-up. So I'm looking at like Hoffman Institute in different places, just trying to do different things because all of the issues that you've identified are my reality. And, and it's like, they're not gonna, these problems aren't gonna fix themselves. And to the people that, you know how it is, when people follow you online, they think they know you and they, they admire certain things. And I love and respect people that like, like me. I like people that like me. But there is a part of me that's like, be careful who you like admire. Like this, everyone's going through their own struggles and no one's perfect. And I think sometimes, you know, social media becomes like a highlight reel of your life. And it's like, look at my life. I'm great. Look at my kids. Look

• 12:50Ken Rideout?

  at these races. I'm not out there posting like, I'm running right now, thinking like, how am I gonna get through this week emotionally? You know, and, um, but.

• 13:02Ken Rideout?

  Like you said, identifying the problem and doing something about it are two different things, but I am putting together a new plan and I definitely am aware that shit needs to be identified.

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  So here's the question for you, Ken. Would you rather spend three days, three sleepless nights and three days running across a barren desert trying to win a race? Or would you prefer to spend three days with your wife in an intense therapy setting around like your trauma and your intimacy issues and whatever else? Which would you opt for?

• 13:46Ken Rideout?

  Well, obviously, the right answer is to do the work to fix my, like, not that my relationship needs fixing, and we'll get into my wife's cancer struggle recently, cancer battle. And my marriage is probably better than it's been in a long time because when we're dealing with like difficulty, that's where I thrive. So, yeah, obviously, I'd rather run across the desert because to me, I convince myself, whether I really believe it or not, I've controlled the narrative to the extent where I'm like, I can't lose. I'm gonna race, I'm gonna train like there's no way I can win, but I'm gonna race like I can't lose. So for me, there's something fun about like, I'm gonna figure this out, I'm gonna get these guys in the end. And that's like an uncomfortable challenge, but the idea of sitting and like talking

• 14:31Ken Rideout?

  about my feelings like we are right now is not fun for me. But I also wanna be honest with people and honestly, I love and respect you and when you ask these difficult questions, yeah, I'd much rather talk about how great I am and how good I am at running and all the bullshit, but I know that that's bullshit. This is what people really need to hear if they're going through it. No one needs to hear about, you don't really learn much in winning. You just learn like, I had a great day. When you get your ass kicked in life or in a race or in any endeavor professionally or otherwise, that's when you learn what you're all about. Because it's very difficult, especially when you go through something publicly or professionally

• 15:14Ken Rideout?

  where you have to deal with setbacks and other people are like standing there watching, whether you get fired from a job or like not finishing a race or getting divorced. It's like, and that's what I say to my wife, I'm like, even when we were struggling, I'm like, We have to fix this because it's not going to get better. We're not going to like, oh, I'm going to meet someone else and they're going to be a perfect fit. Like, no one's going to be a more better fit for me than my wife. The problem isn't her. The problem is like, we just have to figure out how to deal with this together. And while obviously I always accept all the responsibility, like a true addict, um, you know, we both could do a lot of things better. And I think that the nice thing about my wife is she's aware of that, too.

• 15:54Rich Roll?

  She's, uh, uh, going through cancer treatment right now, breast cancer treatment. How is she doing?

• 16:00Ken Rideout?

  She's doing great. Cancer free, um, all done with all her treatments. She had a mastectomy and now she is just, um, you know, they do, she had a choice of a double mastectomy or a single, she had a single. I mean, in terms of breast cancer, and I was just telling your wife Julie about this, and I'll, I'll, I'll come back, but come back to the beginning. But in terms of breast cancer, we had best case scenario. It was stage one, it was early. But when you hear your wife has cancer for me, again, wanting to control everything, I'm like, oh, my God, this is a death sentence potentially. Like, I'm scared. And I'm like, the, the, the problem in my brain is snowballing. I'm like, oh, my God, this is catastrophic. But I can't let her know that. I have four kids. Like, what am I going to do? Like, I wasn't, I never felt so vulnerable in my life. I was like, I'd rather have terminal

• 16:44Ken Rideout?

  cancer than have her go through curable breast cancer right now. That's, in that moment, that would have been my choice. And, and we're feeling sorry for ourselves, as I was explaining to Julie, for a few days, maybe a week. And then at some point, just like with preparing for a race or something, I just looked at it and I'm like, you know what? F this. Enough is enough with this. This ain't going to fix itself. Sitting here crying and whining about this shit isn't going to fix it. We need to like, toughen up, get with the program and like, figure out what the game plan is and bring some like toughness and, and, and aggressiveness to the treatment because. Crying about it isn't gonna fix it. Like, it's happening. Like, it's like being drafted into Vietnam.

• 17:25Ken Rideout?

  Like, you're going. Stop crying. Pick up that gun and learn how to shoot it because otherwise someone's gonna shoot you. And that's kind of how, and she, to her credit, was like, you're right. You're right. This moping around isn't gonna do it. I said, you're gonna like, write your own comeback story and be an example to the, I'm getting emotional, to our kids and to your friends about like, this is what toughness looks like in the face of adversity. And like, the choice is yours. How you behave right now is gonna stay with you for a long time. And as someone who has gone to like, through events and quit and given up and dealt with the bullshit that comes with quitting, it's so much easier to be tough and, and, and be tough right now. And she did it. And we, I was, like I was telling Julie, we went to the doctor, like, here's the plan.

• 18:08Ken Rideout?

  And you know, it was incredible. Like, tons of people reached out. Andrew Huberman was like, I'm gonna have this person call and that person call. We went to the first doctors meeting in Nashville with St. Thomas Ascension. And they were like, here's the plan. Boom, boom, boom. And I was like, I don't even think we need it. They were so confident. And everything that they told us happened. Instantly, she was in for MRI, the biopsy, this, that. And then two weeks later, they're like, all right, the surgery is scheduled. The only thing I'll say is they were like, really pressing for a double mastectomy. And I was like, man, do we, should we take like, a less aggressive approach and see what happens? At stage one, there's no, nothing to indicate she'll get it again.

• 18:49Ken Rideout?

  In the long run, she got a single mastectomy. She was, in hindsight, was really happy that she'd made that decision. So then they remove her breast, put in an expander, and then slowly inflate it every day. And to my wife's credit, we eventually like, learned to laugh about it. Cause like, she would be getting in the shower and I'd be like, yo, you look crazy. She would like, you know, for the first few days, she was like hysterical, like, I look awful. This is not good. But eventually we laughed about it. I'm like, yeah, you look crazy. You've got like, one 20-year-old boob and one 50-year-old boob. And uh, I didn't know how else to deal with it, but other than to laugh and she laughed about it. And now I said, you're gonna be 52, be a cancer survivor and have new boobs. It's gonna be great.

• 19:31Rich Roll?

  And she's cancer free now.

• 19:32Ken Rideout?

  Cancer free.

• 19:33Rich Roll?

  That's good. I'm really happy to hear that. I know you, you guys have really been going through it. But it's no surprise that, you know, in a chaotic cataclysmic situation like that you just, that's like a dopamine surge. Like, oh, now I can, here's my, here's, here's where I come alive. And I can attempt to control this and, you know, create a plan of action. And it's, it's, it's like you're, you're hardwired to like step in, in a situation like that because of the background that you had, like the childhood that you had, like it's all related.

• 20:06Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. Well, to that point, on the flight out here, I'm sitting in, uh, I was sitting in one, one row and a guy right behind me, I get up to go to the bathroom and an older guy sitting behind me. And he, and as I'm coming out, he's like standing in the, in the walk, in the aisle, but he doesn't, like something is off. And I'm like, huh, what's going on there? And he's like struggling to get the thing. He's probably like 70, 80, a little bit overweight. And he just has a crazy look on his face. I'm like, yo, you all right? And he's like, like stumbling. I'm like, no, this guy ain't right. And I snatch him up like under his arms. And I'm like, yo, are you all right? And, and he like stumbles into the bathroom and like falls onto the toilet. And the flight attendant goes, oh, she's like, oh my God, do I need medical? I'm like, yeah, you need medical, but people were just standing around and like, I was like on this guy.

• 20:50Ken Rideout?

  I'm like, yo, you all right? And, and, and it was one of those things, like to your point, when, when anytime I've been in those situations where something's going on, I'm like, who needs help? Not that I'm trying to be the hero. It's just like, my instincts just took over. And I was like, yo, what's going on? You know, who was sitting right there and watched the whole thing? Your friend Anthony.

• 21:09Rich Roll?

  Anthony Zemidi.

• 21:10Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 21:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. He texted me today about it. Yeah.

• 21:13Ken Rideout?

  Oh, I told you.

• 21:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:14Ken Rideout?

  It was scary, man. I was really scary.

• 21:17Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 21:17Ken Rideout?

  But he ended up getting, he ended up kind of pulling himself together and he was okay. And then I was like, yo, are you gonna have an ambulance for this guy? Like, he's definitely not right. And they were like, yeah, they had, they're aware on the ground. So. It was scary.

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  I think what separates your story in this book from other versions of it, in this genre of ultra endurance athlete addiction recovery story, is the fact that you had the courage to tell this childhood trauma story. And it creates this arc because it goes from here are the mindset tools, which are very much like be hard and never quit. And we're going to talk about that all the way to the conclusion of the book, which is essentially this epiphany or realization as a result of all the work that you've done to heal your relationship with your past, that the real obstacle is the self.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  And you have spent a lot of time in your life focused on other people in the competition. And I need to beat this person to overcome my imposter syndrome or to feel deserving or worthy of love. All of these things that are very kind of like human drives. But to understand like ultimately it's about my relationship with myself. And it really isn't about all these other people.

• 22:37Ken Rideout?

  No, that's exactly right. This past fall, I helped coach the local cross country high school team. And some of my talks to the kids, like I just would get so fired up for the kids. And I think the coaches at times were like, oh, this guy is intense. Because I would be like tell the kids, yo, you think that this preconceived notion of like cross country guys are nerds? These people don't know what it's like to be running one, two with 500 meters to go. They don't know what that kind of toughness is, the toughness that you have to find within yourself to get up and run in the morning. I was like, whatever you think about yourself, it's the truth.

• 23:20Ken Rideout?

  If you think you're a loser and a nerd, then you probably are. But if you think you're tough and you're a champion, then you can be that too. I would get so excited talking to the kids. And that was the, I don't know what got me going on that tirade. But when I think about the internal narrative and relationship with self, I really believe that what you think about yourself becomes the truth. And it's something that I've struggled with. And when I catch myself getting into that negative self talk, how would you take care of your mind and body if? You had to take care of your best friend or your spouse or one of your child's bodies for two years. I had to take your soul, put it in someone else's body that you love more than

• 24:02Ken Rideout?

  anything. How would you take care of that person? And when you think about your life in those terms, and like even with regards to addiction, you would never do to someone else what you would do to yourself. I would never put drugs in my, my child or my wife or anyone else, but I would, wouldn't think twice about at a, at a period in my life of doing those things to myself.

• 24:28Rich Roll?

  Your story is so incredible. I don't want to presume or assume that just because you've been on the show before, that everybody who's watching or listening to this has, has heard that. So I want to give you the opportunity to, you know, tell it in your own words, like a, a sort of, you know, truncated version of what we've talked about in previous episodes.

• 24:49Ken Rideout?

  The memoir is basically a memoir of my life from go, growing up in Boston in the inner city, playing competitive hockey, like on all the travel teams. It was my whole life. Cut out of high school, I worked in a, as a guard in a prison for four years, a prison that my stepfather had been in previously. My, my brother would eventually be an inmate there. A couple of years after I stopped working there, thank God. I worked there with guys like Mickey Ward though. They made a movie called The Fighter about him, just legendary.

• 25:18Rich Roll?

  Right. Christian Bale and.

• 25:19Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. And Mark Wahlberg.

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  Just, you were a prison guard to the, to, to him.

• 25:25Ken Rideout?

  He was a guard with me.

• 25:27Rich Roll?

  Oh, he was a guard.

• 25:27Ken Rideout?

  And his brother, Dickie Eklund, who was played by Christian Bale.

• 25:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Dickie was the, was the inmate, right?

• 25:32Ken Rideout?

  And Dickie is like a crazy, like Dickie is as crazy in real life as he is in the movie. And uh, it's funny, like I'm friends with a guy called Mike Lee, who goes by Bean Shooter on a, on Instagram, crazy guy. But those guys from Lowell were just all crazy, but it was, everyone at the prison was like one, one like bad decision away from being inmates or, or the guards were one decision away from being inmates themselves. It was a really. Crazy environment and the guards were like at times for me worse than the inmates. It was very crazy environment and I talk about that in the book in in in detail. But um went to college, um paid worked worked at the prison to pay for school. I played football and hockey in college.

• 26:16Ken Rideout?

  Eventually going into my junior year, I get cut from the hockey team and that sent my life into a spiral. Like once that was taken away from me, like I very much identified with being a hockey player. And in my mind, I'm like, all right, I'm gonna get through college and then I'm gonna go like maybe play in the East Coast Hockey League with my buddies or, you know, in a perfect world, play in like the AHL, you know, like the right below the NHL, even though that was a bit far fetched, but in my mind, that was a reality. And if I couldn't get there playing, I'd get there fighting. Like I was just like willing to do anything to stay playing hockey. So when that was taken away from me, I started to like experiment with cocaine. I think it's always funny to say experiment. I started to abuse cocaine with my friends and that set off like a

• 26:59Ken Rideout?

  three or four year odyssey with my Boston friends, like they these were crazy, crazy guys. Um lots of Teamsters and different uh blue collar guys and This is Boston, Boston. This is Boston, Boston. I moved to New York and started working in finance and I was hanging out with this guy, Mike Peltier, who introduced me to the world of finance. I was a pharmaceutical sales rep playing in a men's hockey league in Chelsea Piers. One of the guys who happened to be on my team was a guy called Mike Peltier, who worked as an inter dealer broker, like a broker of commodities. And inter dealer meaning like brokering trades between institutions, never dealing with like retail mom and pop customers. It was like in it banking. And um unfortunately, he died in nine eleven.

• 27:43Ken Rideout?

  Um Mike Peltier, sweet guy, French Canadian guy, awesome hockey player.

• 27:49Ken Rideout?

  So I'm, we went out one night while I'm in New York. I've been there about six months. And I said to him at one point, I'm like, Mike, do you know that I've been here six months? I've never seen one single fight. And he's like, why would that be unusual? I'm like, when I grew up, and I don't say this to be like a tough guy, like I know who I am. I don't have to pretend to be tough. When I would go with my friends from like nineteen to twenty-four at the bars in Boston, every single night, either one of our friends would get into a fight or someone else would be a fight. It was like a really, really crazy place. And this is like not in like some dumpy bar. This was like in Faneuil Hall and like the touristy area, like in like higher end bars. But it was just a super aggressive place. Even now, when I talk to friends from Boston, they're like, yeah, that was really, it's a really unique place in that way that I don't know if it's like,

• 28:35Ken Rideout?

  people feel so oppressed and aggressive that they're fighting with each other, but it was, it was chaos. And that was like my reality. I never thrived in that. I was never like, I was like a normal person. I was like, oh, my God, I'm so scared. There's gonna be a fight. But I also had this thing where I'm like, well, if there's gonna be a fight, you at least better start throwing punches because otherwise you're gonna be of the victim. And I didn't wanna be the victim, even though I was scared, like I would tell my kids. I know sometimes it's scary when things are about to go down, but you just have to learn how to do certain things scared. Cause everyone is scared. No one gets into a fight and is like, not scared. Um, so anyway, I, I moved to New York, meet Mike Pelty, tells me they've got a trading assistant job uh, on the trading desk he's working on. I get that job.

• 29:18Ken Rideout?

  And I'm getting bullied like crazy by these people, which is crazy to say. I'm like boxing for the New York Athletic Club. I've worked in a prison. I wasn't the kind of person that was getting pushed around necessarily. But working on a trading desk is like being the freshman on a football team. He, there's a certain amount of hazing that's like kind of customary and accepted, but I was not comfortable doing that. And eventually like, The guy, one guy in particular harassed me so much that I slapped him in the face and they fired me right on the spot and I was so naive. You'd just gotten hired too, right? Yeah, I was there for a couple of months. And I was so naive, I didn't know we had competitors. I didn't know there were other trading desks competing against us. I didn't know that I would get two weeks of severance. When they told me they were gonna give me like two weeks severance, I was like jackpot.

• 30:02Ken Rideout?

  I was like, yes, I've got a two week runway to figure something out, even though I don't know what I'm gonna do. I have a degree in sociology and I have no finance experience. I've been working two months and I don't know anything that's going on. And then I was lucky that some guys in Enron heard the story and the guy who was the most senior trader was a Boston guy from Martha's Vineyard and he loved it and was like, hey, I called this desk, there was another trading desk that competed against the desk I worked on that what, but they weren't very good. But this senior trader at Enron was like, you're my sales guy and they're gonna hire you and literally they double, I was making forty grand, they hired me within two days making eighty grand. And then very quickly they were like, okay, your new salary is like a hundred and twenty five grand.

• 30:46Ken Rideout?

  And then I got hired to go to London to run, I got hired by Cantor Fitzgerald a year before, roughly a year before nine eleven. But because I had a contract with a competing Wall Street firm, they said electricity trading and natural gas trading was relatively new. Go to Europe, London and set up this trading desk for us. And it was like a dream job. I mean, it was like expat, meaning they paid my rent. I'm talking like the nicest house I've ever lived in at the time. I had a brand new Porsche. I was like a finance guy. I had everything, Concord, back and forth, London to New York. And around that time I was introduced to opioids and I had an ankle surgery, got some

• 31:26Ken Rideout?

  opioids and as soon as I took them, all of my feelings of inferiority, all of my fraud complex, imposter syndrome, which I was struggling with working in finance, like what I was describing earlier with racing. Every time I would do a big trade or get a job, I was like, oh my God, I'm so lucky. They're eventually gonna figure out, I don't know anything about what's going on. I'm just like faking my way through this because I had good client relationships.

• 31:51Ken Rideout?

  So I'm living in London and that was the first time I got sober while I was in London. I went to NA meetings over there, got sober, just white knuckled it and um, Enron went bankrupt. The, my life was turned upside down. They're like, okay, that, that job's over. Nine 11 happens at the same time and everyone that I worked with at, on the trading desk in New York, all died, like 2,300 people. The office was on the top floor of the World Trade Center.

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  So you're employed by Cantor Fitzgerald.

• 32:19Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  Working for them in London.

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  On nine 11, I presume you're at, you're at work because it's later in the day. And essentially you watch in real time as like, something like 685 of your coworkers.

• 32:39Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 32:40Rich Roll?

  Die essentially instantly.

• 32:42Ken Rideout?

  Yep. We were on.

• 32:43Rich Roll?

  I mean, what was that, what was that, what was that like? Like being in the office at that time?

• 32:48Ken Rideout?

  It was so shocking. It almost like didn't register. It was like you were watching something, but it was hard to believe it was real. And we have open line of communication with them, like a squawk box, they call it. So you can push a button and speak on a speaker into the whole trading floor or the specific trading desk that you're looking for. So if you're trading interest rate swaps and you need a price in New York, you push the button and say, hey, where is this particular month pricing? So when it first happened, like everyone, I was like, what the hell? Someone flew a Cessna into the World Trade Center? Wow, that's crazy. And then very quickly you see the other plane hit and just like everyone else, I'm like, this is, this, this, you know, you watch on TV, it doesn't seem real. And eventually we're talking back and forth and it's calm.

• 33:32Rich Roll?

  I assume you're in, like, the, the phone lines between your office and the New York office are wide open at that point.

• 33:37Ken Rideout?

  Initially very calm, like guy, because don't forget in 1993, someone lit off a bomb in the, in the basement of the, in the parking garage of the World Trade Center. And a lot of the people that were working with us had either been working there then or knew someone who had. So it wasn't like, oh my God, this had happened before. The crazy thing is I had a friend who worked on the 80, Drew Turnbull, who I worked with for years. He, he, he wasn't at Cantor, he worked somewhere else, but he was in the building in 1990, in 1993, just got out of school and.

• 34:11Ken Rideout?

  He was on like the eighty third floor. So the bomb goes off and they're like, okay, evacuate, electricity is out and stuff. And you know, think about this, when you go into an internal stairwell, there is zero ambient light. It's pitch black. I mean pitch black. And I know because during the blackout in like two thousand and two of New York City, I lived on the thirty second floor and had to walk up and down a couple of times to get in and out to eat. And it was so dark in the stairwell. You're trying to count the floors. Okay, tenth floor, eleventh floor. And every single time I'd go to the thirty seventh floor and pop out on the roof. I'm like, how did I miscount by five stories? It was that kind of like disorienting. So now they're ninety three, they're trying to get down like eighty

• 34:50Ken Rideout?

  something stories. It's pitch black and the entire hallway is filled with black smoke. You can't see it, obviously, but you can smell it. And there's people are like shoulder to shoulder trying to hustle out of there. He said when they popped out into the sunlight, he was like every single person like firefighters, everything on them was black from the smoke, their face, their clothes just pitch black except eyes. So when it happened, when nine eleven happened, it was kind of calm initially, like, hey, guys, get out of there. Like this looks and then when the second plane hits, you're like, yo, get out of there. And then eventually the lines went off. And you know, you're still like, oh, there's people up on the roof, there's people down, maybe only some of the stairs are gone. You know, because obviously the plane went through and jacked up a bunch of stuff. And then eventually, um,

• 35:34Ken Rideout?

  I mean, the stories that came out after it, like people that would come to London eventually who'd survived either weren't there or they were on lower floors, they'd come. There was one guy, an orthodox Jewish guy, he was like on the, you had to take two elevators to get to the top. So you'd go to a landing like on eighty something and then you'd get to the next elevator that would take you to one oh five. And he was standing with other people on eighty something. And when the plane hit, like jet fuel filled the shafts of the, of the um, elevators and the doors open. So he's standing to the side, the door opens and a frigging fireball blows out and and there's a woman who worked at Kenner standing there and the fireball engulfed her, but she's still alive, but she has no skin. This guy.

• 36:18Ken Rideout?

  Basically carries her down eighty stories with no like the pain. He's like there was, I mean, guy must have crazy PTSD. He's like, the pain from this woman as I'm carrying her, I'm thinking she's gonna die. She has no skin and she survived. It was just, but there were dozens of stories like this that came out later, but when it happened and the buildings went down, it was just like, no one really said anything. It wasn't like screaming. It was just like, holy cow, like this is crazy. Just like everyone watching it was, and then it just turned into like literally a war zone in at the office because people who survived set up shop in London. So everything was trading centrally from London and it was literally looked like, like MASH. It looked

• 37:00Ken Rideout?

  like a military setup. There were cots everywhere, people working around the clock. And then there were some, a lot of clients that were like, wanted to do business with Kenner to like, keep them going and like, help them because they had set up all these kind of relief funds. And yeah, man, it was, it was dramatizing, but something that I think in going to onsite that I probably had blocked out a lot of it and didn't really register with me. Again, I never wanted to feel like woe is me. So maybe I like put up some defense mechanisms, like this didn't really affect me, even though it did. And it took a little while to kind of work through that, but.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  But it was a moment where you realized, hey, maybe I'm not really valuing this life that I have.

• 37:43Ken Rideout?

  Hundred percent.

• 37:44Rich Roll?

  And, and I need to make some changes. It was a catalyst for that. Yeah.

• 37:48Ken Rideout?

  That's when I got sober the first time and was doing really well, but I wasn't like working the program the way I should. I was like a sober addict and went back to New York and just like you would imagine, soon as I had like a hard day of something, I would take some more pills and then it would lead to weeks and then I'd get sober for a week. And then eventually that was like a years long odyssey where I couldn't get sober for a week without help, without help of an outpatient detox, which is so, so during this time, I meet my wife and I'm in the throes of addiction, but I'm like, I'm very much a functioning addict. It'd be like someone who was like a hardcore drunk, but during the day they show up, they work and then they're just fun guy who's like, oh,

• 38:29Ken Rideout?

  just happens to be out every single night drunk. And eventually she catches on, realizes like, this guy is either crazy or on drugs because this is not normal behavior.

• 38:38Rich Roll?

  But you were, you were using when you met her and started to date her. So she only knew you as that version of Ken.

• 38:45Ken Rideout?

  Exactly. Who was like. Like just crazy, extreme. I would just be like get a

• 38:50Rich Roll?

  Because when you're not using, you're not crazy or extreme.

• 38:53Ken Rideout?

  No, not, not, not to that extent.

• 38:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:56Ken Rideout?

  And I, I was also making a lot of money. So I would, you know, I'm dating her. I wanted to so desperately to impress her. She grew up in a beautiful family. Parents are still married. All the kids went to college. They all get along. They're just like the perfect, normal family. I mean, they have their own stuff going on, but nothing relative or comparative to what I had seen. So to me, I was like, they have everything I want. So to a certain extent, it was almost like, I want her to be the mother of my kids and I kind of want her to be my mom too. In a subconscious way and uh, but I was always aware of that. But like you say, just being aware of it and doing something about it doesn't necessarily justify the um, identifying of the problem. So I meet her going through it. We break up, get back together.

• 39:41Ken Rideout?

  And because I have money, I'd be like, hey, let's go to the Bahamas. Oh, there's no flights. I'll get a private jet and we'd fly to the Bahamas private. And this was overwhelming to her because she was working as an actress. Her parents put her through school, but they didn't pay her bills or anything. So she was like working as a sign language interpreter, a waitress, doing odd jobs, trying to be an actress and you know, struggling, living with a roommate of her best friend. And um, then I come along and I'm like, you know, at one point we were, we were talking when we first dated. She's like, oh, if I, if I ever like made a lot of money, first thing I would do is go like to Victoria's Secrets and buy like a hundred pairs of new underwear or something. So of course, the next day I send a hundred pairs of new underwear. I was like, what, you know, whatever I could do. She, she wore glass, she wore, she needed glasses for certain things. So I bought her Lasik surgery.

• 40:27Ken Rideout?

  But she was never motivated by money or not. Like she doesn't have designer bags. She's just not into stuff like that. So to her, it was very overwhelming and off putting to be like, I don't want everything handed to me, but my way of showing her love was to give her everything that I always wanted, which is, you know, material, like whatever I wanted and I had the means.

• 40:46Rich Roll?

  But it's also compensating.

• 40:47Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, exactly. And she saw through that and it made things difficult because in my mind, I'm like, why are you upset? Cause I want to do nice things for you. And she's like, I don't need you to do nice things for me to like, like you. Eventually, we work it all out. We get married. I get sober here and there and we start the adoption process as soon as we get married because we were gonna have our own kids, but we also wanted to adopt kids. And we get matched with a daughter in Ethiopia. And at that point, I was like, that's when I said like, I'm gonna get sober or kill myself.

• 41:19Rich Roll?

  Right. You're you're chipping at this time, at this point, right?

• 41:22Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 41:22Rich Roll?

  You're and you're hiding it.

• 41:23Ken Rideout?

  Yes. So I I'm I'm using opioids, but then I'm also using subutex, which in my mind is like, kind of like, I'm kind of sober. I'm not getting high. And the subtext is like methadone. It's just keeping me from like going into withdrawals. But that's all it's doing. And when we, when, when I realized this is okay, I couldn't do it for myself. I couldn't do it for my wife. And I was like, I cannot bring kids into this because I'm not this person who's like unstable and like this crazy like I'm in my heart in my like sober state. I'm like empathetic. I'm like a little more gentle and like on drugs, I was hu- it's a hyper aggressive. And I went to an outpatient detox facility in New York

• 42:07Ken Rideout?

  called Parallax, where they give you like medically assist. They help you like go through a medically assisted withdrawal. So you I would check in every morning and they would give me like Ritalin to stay awake, blood pressure medication for the withdrawals and then Xanax and sleeping medicine to go to bed because he couldn't sleep. I'd sleep for a few hours, wake up absolutely drenched in sweat. I mean, like, to the point where I'm like, the sheets are wet, the mattress is wet. I'm like going from main our bedroom to the guest bedroom and like just sweating through everything. It was horrible. And around the fourth day, you know, I write about this in the book, around the fourth day, I I wake up to go to the bathroom and pass out blackout from all the different medication and the

• 42:47Ken Rideout?

  withdrawals. And my wife finds me unconscious and is like hysterical. And I just like.

• 42:53Rich Roll?

  Did she know that you were doing this?

• 42:55Ken Rideout?

  No.

• 42:55Rich Roll?

  You were trying to you were keeping this whole thing a secret?

• 42:57Ken Rideout?

  Yes. If I can get seven days sober with no subtext and no opioids, I can get a shot of a drug called VivaTral. That's an opioid blocker that will prevent me from getting high for 30 days at a time. And it was like a miracle drug. So I had never taken it. But I was like, oh, it's basically now now now Drexel or something. It's like, they use it for alcoholism, too. And um, so I'm thinking I only have three days to go and I'm gonna get this shot. No one's gonna be none the wiser and I'm gonna be sober, even if I don't like it, I won't be able to get high. And um, she finds me and yeah. And you know, if you've ever seen the movie Flight where Denzel Washington is like

• 43:40Ken Rideout?

  high and drunk and he gets in a plane crash and saves a bunch of people, but he's high and drunk when he does it. And they're like, they know it and he's going to trial and he thinks he can prove he's not drunk and high when it happens and he's been sober for like six months and he realizes the night before the trial. His room at the hotel he's staying at, getting ready for trial is cracked open to the neighboring room. And he's had all the booze taken out of his room, but he sees the door open and walks in. And all you see is the refrigerator full of booze and then the next day, flashed the next day and he's walking into court and he's like completely whacked out. He's been up drinking and doing coke all night. And he gets on the stand and they're like, and all he had to do, he was gonna be found innocent. All he had to do was show up that next day and be like, I didn't do it and he's done.

• 44:24Ken Rideout?

  And he gets on the stand and he's like, yep, I did it. I was high the whole time. I'm high right now. And they're like, you know, he gets sentenced to prison. That's kind of the feeling I had when she found me. I was like, yep, I was high. I've been like, this is the life I've been living. These are all the things that I've done. And I was literally like, yeah, I'm a piece of shit. I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm a loser. And uh, I'm looking at her and looking at the balcony and thinking like, I'm gonna jump off the balcony to get out of here, to like escape this confrontation. But obviously I didn't and I dealt with it and, and I uh, three days later, I got the vivatrol shot. And that was like the beginning of my like sobriety. I mean, I had some bumps along the road, but that was like the changing of my life. And that was also right around the time I started to like

• 45:07Ken Rideout?

  really like get into endurance sports and that became my like new obsession, crutch, new addiction and, and all the things that go along with it. And um, we went to Ethiopia, adopted my daughter and everything it was uh, everything was good. And it was almost like a weight off my shoulders though, telling my wife that I um, what happened, cause then I felt like I could tell her everything. I mean, obviously I wouldn't tell her, oh, I guess what? I got high again yesterday. But eventually she figured it out. She would see right through it. She'd be like, what is wrong with you?

• 45:35Rich Roll?

  So there were a couple of relapses after that before it really stuck.

• 45:40Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. There's so much shame around relapse.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  But it's part of the process, you know, I think it's rare. I think there are people who just think like, well, you go in and you get sober. And if you relapse, like you're a failure and whatever. But the, you know, the most, most people like are relapsing all the time before it eventually sticks.

• 46:04Ken Rideout?

  You, you'd identify it perfectly, though. It's like I, I would enter into a severe, severe shame storm of just like so disgusted with myself. And you realize like, that's why I've never shied away from talking about the mistakes I've made, because I think what you just said is important for people to hear. It's not, although you don't wanna, I don't wanna tell people like, yeah, listen, I made mistakes. Like, it's like, it's okay. Like, no, you definitely don't wanna have relapses. But I always feel a tinge of jealousy when someone's like, yep, I got sober in like, you know, 2002 on this exact date. And I'm like, I wanna have like, an exact date when I, because every time I would relapse, I'd be like, I'm not gonna keep track anymore, because there's too much pressure.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  That like attachment to like, this is my date, or whatever. I think it's, there's value in that. Like, you know, it's important to acknowledge, like, hey, you know, this, this much time has elapsed since, you know, I came into the rooms or whatever. But there's also a violence with it, you know, and, and that's what contributes to the shame. Like, if you go out, you're like, oh, I just blew it, and I'm a fuck up, and I lost all that time. It was all for nothing. It's like, no, it wasn't all for nothing. You know, like, you were sober all of that time. And now something happened, and you can learn from that, because all we actually have is today, right? And what we do with this moment is the only thing that is important, because it's actually the only thing that exists.

• 47:27Rich Roll?

  Everything else is a story, right? We have a story about our past, and a story about like, who we wanna become, or who, you know, we think we can become, or can't become. And, you know, for me, sobriety is, is very much about like, deconstructing all of those stories, and trying to be a little bit more present, and letting go. Like, I'm, I'm so willful, like you, and I wanna control things. And I wanna basically channel my obsession to like, make this or that happen. And and just being constantly, you know, humbled and reminded that like the way forward is really in the letting go.

• 48:04Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 48:04Rich Roll?

  And when you're, you know, when you're struggling to, you know, to to get pregnant or Shelby gets a cancer diagnosis, you're just reminded that, you know, we have so little control and and, you know, life is uncertain. And, you know, we have to like appreciate the moment that we find ourselves in, which is so difficult for me, you know?

• 48:26Ken Rideout?

  Yeah. The other thing I would say is when I would relapse, at least for me, it would remind me of why I'm doing this because I wouldn't even say like the getting high wasn't the end result. It was like, why am I hiding from these feelings? There's something I'm avoiding because what I realize is the only time I would be happy, if I would think, that's it, I'm getting high. I would be like almost euphoric from the time I decided to do it until I got my hands on the drugs and then it was all downhill. And then I was like, why did I do this? It's not as good as I thought it was gonna be and it never is.

• 48:58Rich Roll?

  Never.

• 48:58Ken Rideout?

  And it just gets worse. And with time and enough of those mistakes, I've come to realize like, nah, this is all a big lie. So when I talk to my kids about drugs, because obviously when I wrote the book and the kids have all read it, my wife's like, you kind of talk to them about this? Like, you can't just let them read it. Like, you gotta talk to them about addiction and stuff. But I always describe it like this. I'm like, listen, drugs are a lie. Like they're they're telling you that everything's gonna be okay. They're making you think things that aren't true. And what you're gonna realize is the things that you're hiding from are not gonna go away. They're only gonna get worse. And then you're also gonna have to deal with the fact that now you have like a drug addiction problem. And I said, it's just a big giant lie that you're telling yourself and trying to impress upon themselves like, because obviously they see the attention that the book is getting and that I'm getting.

• 49:43Ken Rideout?

  And I don't want them to think like, oh, my dad, these, these, he did these things and look at him. I'm like, no, no, no, these, these, these. The things that I'm writing about here are like, learn from my mistakes. There's other, there's other ways to cope with this and it would have been a lot less unpleasant for me. And they also see me, they know, they're not stupid. They know that I struggle with a lot of things. They know that I could be a lot happier. And that's been the most difficult part of this whole journey is like trying to be the person that I want to be when I'm around them and like want to be the example for them of how to deal with difficulties versus being like angry dad or aggressive dad. Like, that's not the answer. And it's, that's the thing that

• 50:27Ken Rideout?

  I struggle with, with when it comes to sports is like, I just, I can tell them anything, but I have to like behave like a, like a mature man.

• 50:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The problem with that though, is that if they're watching what you're doing, you're setting a standard that's very difficult for them to live up to.

• 50:45Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 50:45Rich Roll?

  You're like, don't worry about what I say. It's like, your kids are always watching what you're doing. It doesn't matter what you say, right?

• 50:50Ken Rideout?

  Right.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  This is your point. But they see you doing things that most people don't do or, or are incapable of doing, or just don't have the determination and the, the internal drive and commitment that you have. So how do you deal with that as a, as a parent to make sure that like, they, they don't feel like they have to, you know, kind of be a version of you?

• 51:14Ken Rideout?

  No, that's a great question. And I was just gonna ask you, do you have any advice? Cause I'm obviously not doing it right. Cause I don't want this, but I don't know how to,

• 51:23Ken Rideout?

  I feel like sometimes when I'm trying to be something I'm not, I'm like, I'm pretending, like I need to be myself, but I've got to find a way that it's like organic and natural for me to be a little more calm and less concerned.

• 51:35Rich Roll?

  I think plugging you in as, as like the coach might not be the best way to do it. Cause you're, then it just, you know, like you're, the Ken ride out's coming out no matter what, you know? Like you gotta make sure they feel supported and that you're there for them and all of that, but.

• 51:55Ken Rideout?

  There's a great quote.

• 51:55Rich Roll?

  I think when, you know, when all the, when all the like, you know, go harder stuff starts coming out, like, I don't know if maybe that's in service to them. I don't have the answer to that. I'm not a psychologist.

• 52:05Ken Rideout?

  No, I, um, there's a great quote from, uh, it's like a meme from, uh, Theo Von where he's describing his dad. And he's like, uh, great guy, threatened to, threatened to kill me a couple of times. Other than that, awesome. So I put it like, uh, uh, uh, text on a thing of me like train, exercising with the kids like in the gym and running with them. Like, how was it having your dad as your coach? Great guy, threatened to kill me a couple of times. Other than that, awesome.

• 52:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. As somebody who is public facing and transparent about your, your past with addiction, when you get an email or a DM from somebody, as I'm sure you do, like, hey, Ken, I'm inspired by your story. I, I just, you know, I can't get off the oxy or I've been, you know, I've been on the Vicodin for 10 years and I don't know what to do. I'm at the end of my rope. Like, what should I do? Like, I'm sure you get a lot of those messages, right? Like, what is the advice or the counsel that you give?

• 53:06Ken Rideout?

  I typically say that first step is the hardest and asking for help is the hardest thing. And I would say, I'm not a drug counselor, but I'm going to connect you on a DM right now with Zach Clark at Release Recovery. And the best thing you can do is talk to people that have the tools to help you get through this because you've acknowledged, essentially, this is dependent on the person. I've said versions of this, like you're acknowledging, like you can't do this on your own, just like I couldn't do it on your, on my own. And the best thing you can do is ask for help. And I've had a long-term relationship with Zach Clark and a formal relationship with the guys at Release Recovery in New York, which is like a rehab center, sober living facility, just a full service addiction treatment service. And, um, They've been great. If you don't have health insurance and if you don't have the

• 53:48Ken Rideout?

  means to get into treatment, they'll provide it for you. They have a nonprofit like. But really, I, when I get those kinds of messages, it, I always treat it with incredible sensitivity because I'm not an addiction counselor. I haven't had the best, you know, I, I'm like not the picture perfect like sober person in the sense that I haven't had this like clean like upward trajectory of like I got sober and then never looked back. Like I've made all the mistakes possible, but I just emphasize speaking to the right people, taking, take, continuing to take responsibility for yourself. And most importantly, like keep going, no matter what, even if you continue to make mistakes, like every day you get a day, a chance to start over. And the only person that's, as you know,

• 54:33Ken Rideout?

  with an intervention, the only person that's going to get you clean and sober is yourself. And the fact that you're even reaching out, you know, or they were like, I think I have a problem. I think I need to do this. I say, if you are reaching out to me and telling me you think you have a problem, you don't need to think anymore. I can guarantee you have a problem, which is fine. I've been there.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  It's not about giving advice or being a psychologist or an addiction medicine specialist. It's about sharing your experience. Like that's what we learn, right? You're not there to tell them what they should or they shouldn't do, or to take their inventory. It's just like, well, this is what I did, you know, or here's what happened to me. And the fact that you have this set of life experiences gives you a level of kind of credibility for that person that, you know, inspired them to like, reach out to you. But yeah, it's not like there's any one way.

• 55:28Rich Roll?

  So let's talk about mindset. There's a lot in this book about your kind of all or nothing approach to life, this obsessive kind of relationship that you have with the things that excite you. And essentially this boils down to this mantra of win or die trying. Like is this, is this still your, your, your go-to mindset strategy?

• 55:51Ken Rideout?

  The whole expression makes it sound like I don't care if I die and I definitely don't want to die, but. That's the only way that I can get the most from myself. And the reason that I know that, as I've explained here before, is going to Hawaii the first time and qualifying for the higher male world championships and getting there and getting out on the run and quitting like a loser. I was so angry, I'm so angry at myself thinking about it now. Just like, how could you possibly quit just because things were hard? And the pain that I carry from that, not just that decision, but just in general, like taking the easy way out, using drugs as a crutch, like those kinds of things piss me off that in hindsight that I did those. And the fact that I can't change it frustrates me. And that's something that

• 56:33Ken Rideout?

  I'm trying to come to terms with. But and again, I want to emphasize that I don't have all the answers. I would never advise other people to take my advice or to take my approach. But that has been the only approach that I have found to get the things that I want to get into and to win the way that I need to win because I don't see myself as someone who's overly talented, overly intelligent. I wasn't like, you know, when I got to New York, it's not like the walls, the finance community was like, oh, my God, thank God, Ken's here. It was like, oh, this idiot, like in my mind, I'm like, I had to basically like kick down the door. No one was opening it for me. And same thing with running. It's like, if I don't go there with that mentality, I can easily convince myself like, eh, take

• 57:16Ken Rideout?

  it easy, man. Just participating is fun. And I just have never found that like, that space where I'm like, just participating is fun. Although I will say I'm closer to that than I ever have been. I'm getting old and I do love the running community. I love going to the races and seeing people like I, I genuinely do. And when I bring that mentality, it's like until the race is over, like, I do not want to like, be nice. I don't want to talk. I don't want to hang out. I don't want to like, take effing selfies. I want to like, kill myself in this race. And then when we're done, I'm like, everybody's best friend.

• 57:51Rich Roll?

  It's sort of antithetical to the conclusion of the book being like the competition is with yourself because this idea of win winning is really kind of about other people. And I would say that you have an unhealthy fixation with other people and being better than other people. And that speaks to maybe an underlying insecurity or like imposter syndrome. Look, we're addicts, we're sensitive people, you know, we feel like we don't belong. We feel like we have to prove ourselves and we compensate and have to go out and do outrageous things just to feel like, you know, we're deserving of love and attention. Like, I get all of that. But I think on some level, it is a little Ricky Bobby, you know, like you're either first or you're last, you know, kind of thing. And I can see why, like, it worked for you and on perhaps some

• 58:36Rich Roll?

  level continues to work for you. Like, it's a very kind of binary thing. Like, this is an, it's like you're either drinking or you're sober, you know, it's like, it's a light switch, like, I'm gonna win or I'm gonna die trying. And it's an accountability tool, like, I'm gonna hold myself accountable for, for this. And that doesn't mean that I'm going to win, but I'm committing to giving everything that I have towards that goal.

• 59:00Ken Rideout?

  That's how I feel going to the races. Like, I want to get the most out of myself. And

• 59:05Ken Rideout?

  yes, you're right that I want to win, but my fixation isn't necessarily with a person other than myself. Like, I, there's a part of me-

• 59:13Rich Roll?

  That's not true.

• 59:14Ken Rideout?

  There's a part of me-

• 59:14Rich Roll?

  You get fixated on these. And there's stories in the book, oh, this guy rubbed me the wrong way, so I'm gonna beat him. No matter, you get fixated on these other people. It's all about that other guy.

• 59:23Ken Rideout?

  In the moment, in the moment, you can get on my radar and all of a sudden, I'm like, you could have just left me alone. Now I-

• 59:29Rich Roll?

  It's like your brain needs that. You need an enemy. You know, you're looking for an enemy and that like locks you in.

• 59:35Ken Rideout?

  But I don't feel like I have any enemies in reality. Like, I never, I go to a race knowing who the other competition is, but I never want to like, I never wish ill will on people that I like, don't know for sure. I mean, I have like, I wouldn't say I have any enemies. I mean, I have competition, but-

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  I think it's like a device. It's a way of activating that part of your brain that gets you like, like, fully focused.

• 59:56Ken Rideout?

  Oh, in the moment, if we're like, we're one and two in a race, yeah, then I'm like, I'm gonna kill this guy. Like, yeah, for sure. But as soon as the race is over, I'm like, dude, good job. You should, when I went by, you should have jumped on me.

• 1:00:07Rich Roll?

  Not everybody has the can ride out cranium. You know, I think you're wired a certain way.

• 1:00:13Ken Rideout?

  Thank God for them.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? I think you, you know, because of your unique set of life circumstances, like your brain was wired to be this very intense person and, um, and, you know, lends itself to this type of like mindset and mentality as a way of like channeling your obsessions in, in healthy directions. But what is the advice to the average person who's not going to run the Gobi Desert? Who feels stuck, wants to make a change, knows, knows they need to make a change. But, you know, maybe they grew up, you know, they maybe had a perfectly fine childhood and they grew up in a, you know, loving home in suburbia and they don't have that, you know, they're not a, they're not an addict, they're not a recovering addict. They don't have that like edge that you have.

• 1:00:58Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you counsel that person?

• 1:01:02Ken Rideout?

  I would say you don't have to bring intensity to your life to get up and do something disciplined every day, but I would say that there's like a quote from Elliot Kipchoge, where he's talking about, um, discipline and how discipline will set you free. It's like the person who has discipline has freedom. The person who doesn't have discipline is like tortured or, or prisoner to their emotions. Like my emotions tell me to like not work out today and have donuts and just be lazy, which cool, once in a while is cool. Personally, for me, like one bad decision can lead to, in my mind, can lead to two, because it has. One day of getting high, when I would get sober for a few months and then I'd get high for a day, it would be like two weeks of being high 24/7. So like my brain doesn't work like that.

• 1:01:44Ken Rideout?

  But the other thing that I would say is there's so much gaslighting in the world. Like everyone's telling, oh, this is okay, that's okay. But deep down, we all know what the truth is. It's like if you wanted to lose weight, well, prior to GLP-1s, if you wanted to lose weight, you knew you had to eat less and exercise more. And it's like, I'm looking for that like diet hack. And there's like a whole industry about here's a healthy snack, here's this, how about this? Just eat less and work out more. I know it sucks, it definitely sucks. Getting sober sucks, but it can be done. And there's a million examples of how people have done it. And I would say that there are. Lessons in the book about how I did all those things that I don't think you have to be a savage to set some realistic fitness goals.

• 1:02:28Ken Rideout?

  Without your health, you have nothing like you really do. And it's your number one responsibility in your life is to take care of you. When Rich Roll wakes up in the morning, no one is telling you, you have to eat a vegan diet and you have to have this. If you wanted to be like, you know what? I'm having a whole effing cake or I'm having a box of donuts because they taste good.

• 1:02:48Ken Rideout?

  The only person controlling those decisions is you. It's the same thing with staying sober. It's the same thing with getting along with your wife. It's like all of these things require some form of discipline. And if you can learn how to harness that and take care of yourself. To me, the greatest thing ever is showing up and being in good shape and having people be like, wow, you really look like you care about yourself. Yeah, it's reflective of how I like, take care of my business. But when you show up disheveled and out of shape, it's kind of like, dude, your number one responsibility is to yourself. Like, let's go. And I love people that are trying. And I know it's not easy for everyone. But it's also doesn't have to be as hard as you're making it out to be.

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  So what is the tool that you use most frequently to stave off that voice in your head that's trying to lead you astray? You call it the beta voice.

• 1:03:40Ken Rideout?

  It's constantly haunting me. It's for me, it's as simple as discipline. And I think we can, we can talk around and around and beat it to death and overanalyze it. But at the end of the day, it's like, if you can't be accountable to yourself, how are you going to show up for other people? It's like, if I don't take care of my health and wellness, mental and physical, like at some point, my kids are going to have to take care of me anyway. I'd like that to be as long in the future as possible. Like the idea of, you know, I heard someone say, a man has two lives. The first one is when they think they're going to live forever. And the second one starts when they realize they only have one. And that I'm in that stage right now where I'm

• 1:04:21Ken Rideout?

  like, I'm like, this is coming to an end. Like, I'm not getting out of here alive. And I have four kids that I care about more than anything in the world and the idea that they are eventually gonna have to take care of me scares me. And the idea of me them having to take care of me sooner than absolutely necessary, like till I'm very old, like I don't, I don't want that. So there's an, there is maybe an element of fear there too, where I'm like, oh, I gotta keep taking care of myself. And obviously you don't have to be as motivated as I am or, or as obsessive about health and wellness as I am, but there is an element of accountability to yourself that I just don't know what to tell you. It's like if you're in college and you don't have discipline to study, like, why would

• 1:05:03Ken Rideout?

  you expect to be on the dean's list unless you're like a savant or a genius? You know what I mean? It's like, that's your responsibility. You just, you have to figure it out. Discipline is the only way to get that.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  You know as well as anyone that this boils down to willingness. Again, like self-awareness will avail you nothing. Like anyone who needs to lose weight or who is out of shape, name your, you know, maladaption knows that they need to do things differently. Like it's not an information problem. It's a willingness problem. You have a lot of willingness. For me, willingness comes and goes, like willingness is like this energy field. And the way I think about it is you have to court it, kind of like the muse, but you can't just make somebody willing, you know? You can't convince somebody to be willing. Like we see this all the time in like the rooms of recovery, like, hey, you're not willing, you know?

• 1:05:59Rich Roll?

  If you're not, if you're not willing to do anything different, like there's no reason for you to be here and you can tell that person all day long and do as many, uh, what do they call them? Interventions. Interventions on them as you want, but you know, until that person decides that they, they're willing to make that change for themselves, uh, it's all like hot air. It's not gonna do anything. Do you have any experience or advice to the person who struggles with willingness? Like they know they need to make this change. They don't need to be told that, you know, that they need to make it. They don't need to be shamed. They don't need more information. What they need is willingness, but you can't give that to them, right?

• 1:06:40Rich Roll?

  Like there's that thing in AA where it's like, well, you just need to go out and do more research. Like it's a very kind of like detached, you know, unemotional thing. Like, well, come back when you're, when you're ready. You're clearly not ready right now.

• 1:06:53Ken Rideout?

  The same way people don't respond to interventions until they're ready to do it themselves is the same. It's the same exact emotion, I think, with with getting in shape and accountability and fitness and all the things that go along with it. It's like I, if I had a magic answer to make people willing to take care of themselves.

• 1:07:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a mystery box. It's a mystery box, but that that's why pain and suffering is so vital. Because these are the like catalysts or, you know, that ignite willingness, you know? They're the things that like when you're in enough pain or you've suffered enough, then suddenly you're willing to do something you weren't before. Right? And why these experiences that we have in life that are painful, or even when we volunteer for suffering, it's because it's so deeply related to our relationship with willingness, you know? It it it brings that to the surface.

• 1:07:45Ken Rideout?

  Well, I would say this, it's like if you're not willing, but you know, you need to make a change. Sometimes the best thing you can do is reach out for help to the appropriate like parties or someone that has is doing, someone that has gone through similar struggles, which is why AA and NA makes so much sense with people. Because you're hearing their shared experiences, because what you realize is that everyone has so much in common, regardless of their background. And my 14 year old son is, uh, man, he's going through it. He's like, you know, going through puberty and he's just a ball of emotions and it is like the hardest thing that I've dealt with in a long time. And on Sunday, he must have been having like the Sunday scaries and was all down in the dumps and his grades weren't great. So I was like, dude, I gotta take the phone. I gotta take the computer out of your room.

• 1:08:30Ken Rideout?

  And, you know, he's like obsessed with making videos. He's now taking flying lessons and he's very obsessive when he's into something. And I'm like, I have to take these things because you can't do it. And he was down and dumb. So I said, come on, let's let's go take the car to the car wash and we'll talk. And as we're talking, I said to him, like, you having a hard day, huh? Yeah. And no words, you know, he's very just sitting there like listening like it's so difficult. And I'm like, buddy, the same way I had to get off of drugs, I had to realize. I can't do this by myself. How you think it's going for you right now? It's like, not good. I said, right? Sometimes when our lives are unmanageable, we have to just accept the fact that I don't, I, I'm not doing, I'm not doing good at this. I need help.

• 1:09:13Ken Rideout?

  And I've had to do it. Your mom's had to do it. Sometimes we need to just realize like, hey, how's it going on your own? No, not good. I can't do it by myself. And you're in that space right now. But the good news is the things you're struggling with, like you're imagining everything. Like you're, you have everything going for you. You have a clean slate. Lots of good things come. And like I heard Andrew Huberman the other day saying it's all internal. Like when you win a race or something good happens, someone doesn't sprinkle dopamine on you. And I was explaining that to him. I said, the emotions that you're feeling, like you're imagining a lot of things right now. Like you're, you're depressed about something. Like, yeah, this might be a chemical imbalance, but recognize like you're imagining a lot of these things like, school sucks, this sucks. Instead of thinking, this is great.

• 1:09:57Ken Rideout?

  I get to start over again Monday. Lacrosse season's here. It's gonna be fun. You're in the eighth grade. You're one of the older kids. You're gonna have a good season. I said, you gotta like tell yourself all the things that you have to be thankful for. Thank God mom's cancer is like cured. I mean, imagine if she was really sick and like going through it and like, people die from this. And I said, but we're, we're, we're good. And I think it got through to him a little, but man, it is, it is difficult.

• 1:10:23Rich Roll?

  It's a hard age. It, it's, it's so hard to be an adolescent or, or teen these days. Like I, you know, I just, I have so much compassion for, I'm sorry he's going through that. You know, it's just, it's, can you imagine being in junior high school or high school with social media and everything? And the toxicity of what's being, you know, communicated through those screens?

• 1:10:47Ken Rideout?

  It is very difficult.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  They're inundated with, you know, so many challenges as a result of that, uh, that we didn't have to. And, um, it's, it's, it's really difficult. I mean, what he's going through is, you know, he's not alone. Like this is particularly with like young, you know, young boys, young men like that. Like it's a big problem. Is he looking at the looks maxing stuff? We're putting out an episode on that. It's just total insanity.

• 1:11:11Ken Rideout?

  On the looks, looks.

• 1:11:12Rich Roll?

  They get like the whole idea that like the only thing that matters is how good looking you are. And you know, all of that, that whole trend on social media right now.

• 1:11:20Ken Rideout?

  The difficult thing, man, is he doesn't really communicate with me like that. My kids are so different. Oh, I have four, right? I have a daughter who's 15 and then I have boys 14, 12 and 10. And they are so wildly different. It's like four completely different aliens in the house. And everyone is in a different stage of like maturity and a different stage of um development. And yes, to us, he, I can be very judgmental too. And like, obviously, you know, they see me away.

• 1:11:50Rich Roll?

  It can't be easy to be your kid.

• 1:11:52Ken Rideout?

  No, it's not. And it's very difficult for me to see them go through that.

• 1:11:57Ken Rideout?

  Especially the little one. He uh, he lost a couple of um. I get so sad thinking about it. He lost a couple wrestling matches and he was so destroyed. And it like, it was like devastating to me because I'm like, I know that he's bummed.

• 1:12:17Ken Rideout?

  To think he disappointed me. And I'm like, and I say to him like, dude, do you realize the only thing I care about is that you're trying? What you, how can you be the best? We haven't been the worst yet. We've only been wrestling two years. That guy has probably been wrestling for seven years. And yeah, I mean, he got mauled. But the kids were like really good. I'm like, dude, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to look at that kid right now and be like, he's been wrestling for years. You barely like even how to put your frigging wrestling shoes on. But it was so hard. He was devastated. I mean, really devastated. But he kept getting back up and going back out for the next match. And we went home and I was like, I had to take him aside and it was, it was really hard because

• 1:12:56Ken Rideout?

  as I'm talking about this, I'm getting choked up myself while I'm talking to him and I'm like.

• 1:13:02Ken Rideout?

  I just want you to be happy and try hard. I don't care about, you don't, you don't have to be the best, but I know that he feels pressure because when I go to do something I like, I want to win and they know that. And I say to him, but I I've said like, dude, you've seen me lose more than I've won. Like you only know the win, the wins because they like get out more attention, but how many times have I gone to races and got killed? A lot. And man, it's, it's really hard.

• 1:13:27Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:28Ken Rideout?

  But yeah.

• 1:13:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the, uh, the can ride out mindset and obsession, you know, doesn't, doesn't, how does that measure up when it comes to parenting? You know, like that's, even if you're saying all those things, they're seeing how you behave.

• 1:13:42Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  And they're measuring their own, you know, kind of output and effort against that. And, you know, if they have a shred of that DNA strand that you have of imposter syndrome or insecurity, it's only going to like, you know, exacerbate that. So that's a, that's a hard one.

• 1:13:58Ken Rideout?

  It's, um, it's incredibly hard because it doesn't matter how many times I tell them those things. I made a post the other day about this. My kids hear some of what I say, but they believe everything they see and what they see is intensity and aggressiveness and, and I'm aware of that. And it like breaks my heart, which is why I get so emotional thinking about it. Cause I don't want this for them. I don't want, I don't want my kids to have my personality or my aggressiveness. Like I don't, like I said earlier, I don't profess to have the answers. I'm, I'm surviving. I'm not like, this is the way to do it, run through everything. I'm like, that's not my, that's not my conscious mindset. That's like my defense mechanism for a lot of other like issues that I'm dealing with. But to your earlier point, it has served

• 1:14:42Ken Rideout?

  me well in terms of like, getting this book done and, and all the things that go with it.

• 1:14:48Rich Roll?

  You know, these, these relics of childhood trauma become superpowers and go to strategies and, um, defense mechanisms that not only allowed you to survive, they basically created, you know, this larger than life, life, like they, they have empowered you to like great heights. At the same time,

• 1:15:12Rich Roll?

  These things are Achilles' heels.

• 1:15:13Ken Rideout?

  Yes, that's right.

• 1:15:14Rich Roll?

  Like, your greatest strength is your greatest weakness.

• 1:15:16Ken Rideout?

  Exactly.

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  So like, what gave you all of these things is the very same thing that can take it all away and destroy it. And that tension, you know, like, I'm familiar with that. Like, how do you reconcile those two things? But I think, and this is like a credit to Julie, who's sitting in the audience over here. One of the things that Julie's always like telling me is that the most important thing, like, the priority is to heal those childhood wounds so that you can show up as a, your most self-actualized self for your spouse and your children,

• 1:15:59Rich Roll?

  and to interrupt that generational pattern of trauma and abuse so that it stops here. And I think that while everyone's celebrating you for all the marathons that you've run, and for the Gobi Desert race, and, you know, all these other kind of like adventures that you've been on, the most courageous thing that you have done and are continuing to do is to heal those wounds in the interest of Shelby and your children.

• 1:16:29Ken Rideout?

  That's it.

• 1:16:29Rich Roll?

  That is your Mount Everest. This is the mountain that you're climbing. And it's very clear in the book that you realize that, you recognize that, and you're taking that challenge on seriously.

• 1:16:41Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, it's the, like, what you said about the Achilles' heel. It's like, not only is that my Achilles' heel, but it's like, for all the successes and wins that are aligned in the book, the only thing I obsess over is the Achilles' heel. I'm like, I gotta fix this. I gotta fix this. And the running is just like...

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  But your willfulness isn't gonna fix it. And there's no amount of running, or no amount, no number of race victories that's gonna resolve that, because the solution is, is almost the opposite. It's like everything in life. It serves you for a period of time.

• 1:17:15Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 1:17:15Rich Roll?

  And then it doesn't, because you've grown past it. So your addiction to opioids...

• 1:17:21Rich Roll?

  Worked until it didn't.

• 1:17:22Ken Rideout?

  Yep.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  And you needed that at that time in order to survive what you were going through. And then it played, it played its part and you were done and you struggled to overcome it, but you eventually did. Then it becomes running, you know, running becomes a way of, and it moves your life forward. Like, I'm not denigrating it. Like, I'm, I'm right with you, buddy. But at some point, it's like, okay, how much are you growing and learning by doing this? Like, you can, you can keep running races the rest of your life, but, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's diminishing returns at this point. And I think the universe like delivered you that message when suddenly you're depressed and you're like, why am I feeling this way? Everything's great. Okay, that's not going to work anymore. Now we gotta go over here and we gotta do this.

• 1:18:07Rich Roll?

  And it's not as sexy as like running marathons, you know what I mean? It's messy and it's, you know, behind closed doors and rooms and it's hard to, there's no stopwatch. So you can't, you can, and you're not racing against anyone. You can't really judge how well you're progressing. And it's really just up to you. You have to hold yourself accountable to this.

• 1:18:28Rich Roll?

  And, you know, it's not something that plays out on social media or that you're going to get likes and accolades and, you know, like get externally validated for. But it is the most important thing, yeah.

• 1:18:39Ken Rideout?

  Well, you're right. That's why I really haven't run any races. I mean, I ran the Austin Half Marathon just because I was like, I gotta get at least set some goals. I'm just going through the motions and it's like, I do love the process of getting ready, even though I'm like not nearly as like fit as I've been. But I haven't really competed in a real race since like the, um, Chicago Marathon in like 23. That the age group world championships, but since then I haven't really done anything and I, until you, but you described it perfectly. Like I'm, I'm desperately trying to get to the next chapter and, and realizing like this is, I do know running is not like, I don't want to feel like it's like this performative thing, which is what it was becoming is like initially I was running to get sober.

• 1:19:23Ken Rideout?

  It was like my own personal thing and I was getting faster and I loved it. And then I started to get recognition for it and became like a performative and almost like for other people.

• 1:19:33Ken Rideout?

  But to your point, it's like the willingness versus able, like am I able, I'm able to do anything I want, but am I willing? And that's basically like the next chapter that I'm on to is like, all right, what am I gonna do next to like? Get to the next like level of maturity here because running isn't it right? I've like exactly what you said, I've maxed out the running of like drugs didn't work. Running ain't gonna get me where I need to be, you know?

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  And there's always another, a longer race or a crazier, you know, like you can be on that treadmill for the rest of your life.

• 1:20:04Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  Right. But like, what are you actually getting out of that?

• 1:20:07Ken Rideout?

  That's right.

• 1:20:08Rich Roll?

  What in your mind is the difference? The differentiator between the person who can hear something, read something, watch something like this podcast, hears you say whatever, and then goes, oh yeah, okay, I'm gonna do that. And then they do it and they change their life versus the person who just can't, they know what they need to do and they just can't, they can't get there.

• 1:20:35Ken Rideout?

  You almost wish you could like sit next to them and just be like, hey, instead of this time thinking that you want to do it, pick up the phone, call someone, just take one step in the right direction, it becomes contagious. And it's like, all of these like sayings and expressions sound corny and cliche, like the journey of a thousand miles starts with one step. Yeah, that the the Gobi March seems insurmountable, but I at some point I was just like, well, let me just show up on day one and start getting after it. And eventually you're in day two. It's like being in onsite, I was laughing with my roommate was Eric Decker, the NFL receiver, who's like become one of my closest friends in Nashville. And we're in the room together with another guy, with another older guy, the three of us in a room together. I'm like, I can't believe I have three roommates

• 1:21:19Ken Rideout?

  and I'm like 50 years old. Like, I can't believe I'm here. It was like I was in jail.

• 1:21:24Rich Roll?

  And yeah, like we're old men, you know, like you're like talking about.

• 1:21:28Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, exactly. So we're in the room together, but we were laughing because I had like the day they they give you the schedule and it's in days and blocks and like. The calendar has like block here, then we got this and I'm crossing them off like I'm in prison. I'm like, guys, last day, we only have three modalities and we're out of here. And they were laughing and I was like, in a weird way, as I was driving out of there, oh my God, I was an emotional mess driving home, calling my wife. Cause I hadn't been able to use the phone. I had so much to say to her. But as we're leaving, it's like one of those things where when people ask me like, how was onsite? I always say, it'll be like this, your back's jacked up. How was your back surgery? It sucked, but guess what?

• 1:22:08Ken Rideout?

  I'm better now, but if I didn't go through that back surgery, I wouldn't be to the point I am now, like doing pushups and working out every day at four thirty in the morning. I'm so proud of you, by the way. I love seeing your workout videos. I'm serious.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine anyone is finds any of it. I, I think it's so boring.

• 1:22:25Ken Rideout?

  I like it. To me, it's inspiring because I know how much you suffered with that back. So when I see you doing pushups to me, because I know if I couldn't work out or run because my back was jammed up and then it got fixed. And now I'm doing 14 pushups, I see everything. I'm like, yes, he's doing it. I feel genuinely happy for you. That's been part of my therapy is like having friends like you and Rob Moore and Zach Clark. And some of the other guys that we've mentioned today is like having friends that I like genuinely love and want to see them succeed is a new experience for me in the last like 10 years, call it where I've been comfortable enough with myself to like genuinely. I think before I was almost so insecure that I didn't want to acknowledge that someone might even be better at anything.

• 1:23:10Ken Rideout?

  But now to have friends that I want so desperately to see succeed that I can feel happy for other people and their successes has been life-changing for me because I feel like I get to participate in so many wins. Because when I see my friends win, I'm like, yes, we're doing it. And I feel a certain extent, I feel a version of that when I win myself, because I know that I have some friends that are really happy for me and there's a part of me that really feels like I'm carrying everyone with me when I'm doing these events, good, bad or indifferent. When I win like the Goldie March, I feel like, oh, we did it. I feel like I won for everyone that's kind of been on this similar journey or that's friends with me.

• 1:23:50Rich Roll?

  What is your relationship with happiness? Are you a happy person? Is being happy important to you?

• 1:23:57Ken Rideout?

  Yes, but I try to reflect, I try to think more about like being at peace. Because happiness is like an emotion that comes and goes. Whereas someone who's peaceful and like living in gratitude is. Like I look at someone like Mike Posner and I feel like a tinge of jealousy. I'm like, he seems so at peace. I'm like conflicted all the time. I called him when I was going through some stuff with the recently that you and I have talked about. When I was frustrated with some other situations and I called him and I'm venting and ranting and raving about it. And he's like, Ken, relax, it's all gonna be fine. And I was like, I know you're right. I'm like, I just, I hate that it bothers me. But he's like at peace.

• 1:24:37Ken Rideout?

  So I think of when I think anytime I catch myself wanting to be happy, I think more about finding peace. And because I have moments of happiness every day, I look at my kids and I feel happy. But if I'm in a bad space, I look at my kids and I see anxiety. Because I'm like, oh, I know my daughter is struggling with this or that. And I was talking to Julie about this. It's like, man, having, being a parent is by far harder than anything I've ever done. Like, living and dying with their emotional struggles is, is so difficult for me. And something that. One of the things that I want to work on when I get to my next like stop on the therapy train. Um, the therapy journey is like realizing that the kids are gonna be all right.

• 1:25:20Ken Rideout?

  I don't have to like be in control of their emotional, their emotional journeys, you know? I don't have to wear their emotional like baggage, like they're gonna have good days, bad days. And when I was in onsite, the woman was like, well, how would you feel if your children had to go through this? When I was telling her, I didn't think I had trauma. And, and, and I was like, my kids could never have gone through the things that I've gone through. And she was literally like, why would you be special? Like, if, if they were in it, they'd go through it, whether they like it or not. What are they gonna do? Be like, I want to get off the ride now, I don't want anymore. Which is how sometimes I would describe my own life where as a kid, I was like, I'm on a ride at an amusement park. I don't want to be on it anymore. Let me off.

• 1:26:03Ken Rideout?

  That's how my life felt with living in the house I lived in where I was like, guys. I don't wanna be on the Turkish twist anymore. I'm getting nauseous. Like, stop the ride.

• 1:26:11Rich Roll?

  Was it just like anger and fighting or was it like alcoholism? Like, what was going on?

• 1:26:18Ken Rideout?

  My, my, my mother and stepfather would smoke weed every day. And in the, you know, eighties, in seventies and eighties, like, that was not acceptable. That was like hippies and like, I have a different view on, on weed in general. Now, I'm not a weed person, but I have a different view, uh, similar to alcohol. But as a kid, I was like, oh my God, cuz weed wasn't like something that was like cool. I was like, these people are degenerates. And then I had my uncle who lived with us downstairs with my grandmother who was shooting heroin. It was just like, I don't wanna be around this. I was never attracted to drugs. I had contempt for everyone that used drugs. Which is crazy that I then found myself in my own, you know, addiction cycle. But, um,

• 1:27:03Ken Rideout?

  on top of that, it was like very aggressive. My mother and stepfather fighting all the time, usually, usually screaming and yelling, but occasionally physical. And then my brother just like literally in fights every single day. And then as he got older, cops at the house all the time. He had a motorcycle, which is fucking crazy that it's my grandmother bought him a mo- like a legitimate like ninja motorcycle. And, um, he just, he was hanging out with drug addicts and other junkies and it was just madness. It was never any stability. All I wanted to do was be home when no one was home and be like, oh my God, peace and quiet. And it was never that. So now I like peace and quiet. Like when someone rings the doorbell and the dog, we have two dogs, my wife has two dogs and they start barking. I'm like,

• 1:27:47Ken Rideout?

  get those dogs out of here. I don't do well with like loud noise or someone slams a cabinet. I'm like, who slammed that cabinet? It's like a gunshot going off. I'm like, my, my trauma response is immediate and instant.

• 1:28:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that, th- those triggers are installed deep in you, those buttons, man. So when you, like, sit down and do like an inventory on your behavioral patterns or like, like what's, what's coming up? Like, what's the thing that is inflamed right now or that keeps happening that you know you need to work on, but maybe haven't, started to yet?

• 1:28:25Ken Rideout?

  I think all of the things we've talked about, about being a better dad and being a little bit more

• 1:28:31Ken Rideout?

  patient and at peace around the house is something that is is pressing right now. But I will say the culmination of the book and the

• 1:28:42Ken Rideout?

  publication on March 10, all of that stuff is like coming to a head. I'm like, it's been, it's been building for so long that it's like, not that it's super anxiety inducing, but it is. And it's just like, I'm so nervous slash anxious just about the release. I want it to be, I want it to go well. And I just, because I have, you know, this deal with Simon and Schuster, I have an agent, I just want to like, represent everyone. I want people to like it. And there's, I'd be lying if I didn't say there's that, that feeling that you know, that I struggle with of like wanting people to like it and like, being nervous about being trolled by people that I don't really care about their opinion,

• 1:29:24Ken Rideout?

  but I let them invade my peace. And so.

• 1:29:28Rich Roll?

  Here's the thing, dude. First of all,

• 1:29:33Rich Roll?

  I understand all of those emotions and desires and and aspirations for the book. But you wrote a great book. I said, you should be proud at the outset, but you corrected me correctly by saying, you know, it's more like gratitude.

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  You've already done it.

• 1:29:56Ken Rideout?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:57Rich Roll?

  You have done the thing. You have, you have created this expression of your life. And it's going to go out into the world and you have no fucking control over what's going to happen, dude. It is just uncertainty from dawn to dusk. And there is nothing that you can do to exert control over it. And that's a very uncomfortable place for anybody, but I sense particularly uncomfortable for you. Right? So I think this is like, I'm going to watch this like a spectator sport. I'm going to be like, let's see how this goes. Because, look, listen. There's every reason why it's going to be celebrated and you know, it's going to be

• 1:30:39Rich Roll?

  everything you want it to be. But I guarantee you, there's going to be like stuff written about it by critics who aren't going to like it. Like, that's just how it goes. Like, when you go into the Colosseum and you, you know, show up in public, that goes with the territory. So I think for you, it's all about detaching from all of that and learning to just accept that that's part of the process. And it's almost like God, the universe, whatever you call your higher power, is delivering you this challenge and opportunity to grow. Because you do have this thing with external validation and other people's opinions. We all do. But like, this is a flashpoint for you. That's right.

• 1:31:24Rich Roll?

  And this experience is gonna, is gonna really like, you know, like, it's just, this is like an AP course in that, right? That's right. Because it's, there's going to be a lot of, a lot of opinions out there. And you can't manage them. And if you start getting into fights with people in the comment sections and, you know, like, letting your lower impulses like, drive this, it's going to be a fucking disaster. Yeah. But if you can be a master of your own emotional being and approach all of it with gratitude and a degree, like a greater degree of equanimity, it's going to be an amazing experience. Because you've already done it. Like, you wrote the book you wanted

• 1:32:07Rich Roll?

  to write. It's a fantastic book. And everything else is just a roller coaster ride that you're not, you know, driving. You know what I mean? And so can you enjoy it? Or are you going to be the guy who's like, reading every, everything that comes out about it, reading every comment, refreshing your Amazon page, like, the obsession, the obsessive, you know, version of you, like, I know, like, I know this, right? Like, like, that's what it's going to want to do. Like, the beast in you, you know, is going to want to do all of those things. And I think The challenge is, can you, can you make that a different experience for yourself?

• 1:32:48Ken Rideout?

  That's all great points. The one thing that really resonated with me is can you be the master of your own emotions? And that to me, of all the things you said, that's one thing that resonated with me where I was like, yeah, that's the next challenge. I'm gonna learn how to master all my emotions. And I will say, the one nice thing is that I've gotten over the years with experience in doing like the podcast that I did with Teddy Alice and now having my own, is I have become better at like, not getting deep in the comments. And the one thing that I never, very rarely do is ever respond to negative comments. Because I realized like, when's the last time you left a negative comment for someone you didn't know? I realized like, these people like, that's, I don't know people that leave negative

• 1:33:33Ken Rideout?

  comments, because who would waste their time? Sometimes, I was talking to one of my neighbors and they're like, oh, so and so, I live in this community in Nashville, and the neighbors were saying, oh, this one has a problem with this one. And I said, can you imagine having enough time and enough like free space in your brain to be worrying about neighbors fighting with each other? Like, how do these people, these people have nothing going on? And that's how I feel about comment, negative commenters is like, who the hell has time to watch strangers on the internet and then leave shitty comments about them, about other men who are just out there trying to like, get it done?

• 1:34:09Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna clip that little paragraph that you just said there. And when you call me mad about something, I'm gonna just hit play on it and play it back to you.

• 1:34:17Ken Rideout?

  I have done better at that with dealing with comments from people I don't know. The, definitely the book reviews, but the book reviews so far have been excellent. Publishers Weekly printed a really good one that I like, felt super proud of. Because at the end, it was like, what you get from after, I forget how it says, after Ken describes his like, win after win. It's not said in a bragging way. It's just a matter of fact way. And what you realize is that he doesn't think he's special. And it's just like a reflection of hard work and grit. However, it was written, it made me feel good. I was like, yes. Cause I don't ever want to talk about, I won this and I won that. Like, look at me, I'm the best. Yes, you want to be the best and you want to win. But I never feel like. I'm special. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here telling you all like frigging problems I have with myself.

• 1:35:01Ken Rideout?

  I'd be just highlighting all of the great things that I did, which.

• 1:35:05Rich Roll?

  So what is the core message that you want the reader to take away from the book?

• 1:35:11Ken Rideout?

  I want the reader to know that anything that you want to do in your life is possible. And if you think that I know that I have achieved some extraordinary things, but I'm far from an extraordinary person. I have like a very physically average person with an with an above average mindset when it comes to setting goals and those things are available. Everything that I've done is available to anyone. Nothing in there required a special skill set. I wasn't born with like awesome genetics. I wasn't gonna, I wasn't a threat to play any division one sports. And whether you're looking to change careers, get sober, take on some physical challenges, start a family. There's stories about how I was able to achieve all of those different things successfully in the book.

• 1:35:56Ken Rideout?

  And if nothing else, I think that there's very entertaining stories about how I did them.

• 1:36:02Rich Roll?

  We've talked a lot about childhood trauma, but I feel like we're kind of dancing around getting down to the nitty gritty of what it actually is inside of you that needs to get healed and fixed. We've got the addiction, we've got the bullying and the childhood abuse and the opioid addiction. But beneath it all, like what is the thing that is animating you and that needs to be repaired?

• 1:36:34Ken Rideout?

  I think if I had to boil it all down to kind of one thesis statement, I would say that, and it pains me to say this, and I want to be sensitive, because you can, you'll, readers will see throughout the book, like my parents didn't do a lot of things right. But I also don't want to like just smash them up in the book and be negative towards other people. There was a lot of things that Michigan I wrote in that book that I went back and took out. And I'm like, this doesn't add to my story to say, look what else they did. It doesn't add to the story, but it will devastate them. Even though it happened, I just, it's not in my nature to just. Hurt people unnecessarily. And if I think I had, and with that being said, I think my father,

• 1:37:16Ken Rideout?

  who had me when he was twenty, so he was young and inexperienced and didn't have probably the best upbringing himself. He was adopted. And I would say that he probably got a lot of his validation through my sports. He was not happy with my brother, obviously being, uh, you know, struggling with what he was struggling with, with mental health, not into sports at all. He was never athletic and my father very much identified with sports. Not that he was like a big athlete himself necessarily. He played some sports, I think in high school. But

• 1:37:48Ken Rideout?

  I think that that's where I always got my validation was trying to like, impress my dad, which it pains me to say, cause I don't really want consciously, I don't want that to be the case. But I think that I would be, it would be naive for me not to acknowledge that. And I think maybe to a certain extent,

• 1:38:06Ken Rideout?

  all of the hard charging, driving and trying to win and be the best at different things is just an extension of wanting validation from my dad and slash the world. And the reason I get so emotional talking about my own kids is because I don't want, I don't want to put this burden on them. And I think in writing this book and talking about all these things and sharing this experience even with you now, it's part of me wanting to like, close that chapter and be like, I, I've done everything I need to do. I don't need to impress anyone else. The only people, the only really opinions of me that matter are my own and the people that live in my house. And I know they love me. So I think that that's been really the

• 1:38:52Ken Rideout?

  kind of

• 1:38:54Ken Rideout?

  overriding theme or like undercurrent of this whole thing is like just constantly seeking validation that.

• 1:39:01Ken Rideout?

  And again, it pains me to say it because I don't want to feel like I need validation. I want to say, I don't need anyone, I'm good. But I would be, it would be naive for me to have that cavalier of an attitude and not be honest about the situation.

• 1:39:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate you being so open and honest about that. And to the extent that the book like closes that chapter for you, it's also ushering in this experiment where, you know, basically like this is a, you know, like an external validation meter, you know, it's going to go out in the world and every day the meter's going to go like this and, and, and it's going to, and, and the job for you is to not like, as it, as it flickers back and forth to like, use that as how you're making a judgment about your self-worth.

• 1:39:51Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  Based upon how it's received, you know what I mean?

• 1:39:54Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, it's been an interesting journey and the advent of social media and having people like, kind of know who I am and like be invested in my story is like a really awkward feeling at times.

• 1:40:06Rich Roll?

  But it's an act of service.

• 1:40:07Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 1:40:08Rich Roll?

  If you're like, this is in service of the person who needs to read it.

• 1:40:12Ken Rideout?

  Yes.

• 1:40:12Rich Roll?

  And it's not going to be for everybody, but to the extent that it's going to reach certain people and it's going to impact them in a positive way, I think the more that you can be in that, you know, inhabit like that mindset, it, that like alleviates the anxiety of like, you know, the, the, the perception aspect of the whole thing.

• 1:40:31Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:40:34Rich Roll?

  Knowing what I know about you and your relationship with Shelby, your wife, my sense or what I'm gathering from this experience that the two of you and your family have had navigating this cancer diagnosis and treatment is that it has softened you in certain ways and also changed your relationship with spirituality on some level. Can you talk a little bit about that?

• 1:41:05Ken Rideout?

  Yeah, no, that's a great, a great topic to discuss because.

• 1:41:11Ken Rideout?

  Shelby always took, has always taken the kids to church on a fairly regular basis, at least two or three Sundays a month, and I would use it as an excuse to do a long run. And I just, I grew up Catholic, but never really embraced religion. I would say, I wouldn't say I'm an atheist, but I would say that I've been like flirting with the idea of leaning more into religion. And I think when she was diagnosed, she definitely leaned into her faith heavily. And

• 1:41:44Ken Rideout?

  and a lot of people from her Bible, like she goes to a Bible study, I think, once or tw- once or twice a month. And seeing all the people rally around her was refreshing for me to see

• 1:41:58Ken Rideout?

  how tight the community is. So like at, and then at Christmas, we go to,

• 1:42:04Ken Rideout?

  we go to church together. And I'm trying to think of the name of the place we go in Nashville. They go all the time, but it was funny when we walked into the service. It's outside, it's festive, you know, there's people everywhere and it's because it's like the star pastor was there and he's standing outside saying hello to everyone. And it's a little bit like those southern churches where the church, it's a big church and the pastor is like a celebrity. And he's standing outside and saying, hi, and my daughter, my daughter is into it. She loves going to church and she'd be like, oh, dad, Pastor Mike is here. It's like, he's never comes, he's always on Zoom. And as we come, dude, it was like they were hyper focused on me. Every person was like, hey, welcome. It's like,

• 1:42:45Ken Rideout?

  it was almost like God was like, we gotta get him, get, get the dad quick. And even my daughters, because my daughter's there, she's like, they're like celebrities to her and they go right past her, don't even look at her and they hone in on me. And I'm like, oh, hey, what's up? And go, good to see, nice to meet. And they're like, hey, keep coming back. And that's been

• 1:43:05Rich Roll?

  It sounds like an AA meeting.

• 1:43:07Ken Rideout?

  Exactly. I was like, man, they like, they, they, they identify me. It's like they knew. And it's funny, I just, I did an interview with Nick Baer, who's really like leaned into his faith recently. And I have a lot of questions about it. And I was saying to him, like, I don't I don't even know where to start. Like, how do you start reading the Bible? I open it and I'm like, it's overwhelming. The words, the letters are so small. There's so many words. There's so much in there. I'm like, where do you start? And he connected me with a guy in Nashville, a pastor, Lyle Phillips, maybe. Anyway, and I connected with this guy. I'm gonna meet him next week for coffee and start to like, explore this journey. But seeing Shelby go through this and the strength that she got

• 1:43:52Ken Rideout?

  from her own faith was motivational to me. And it gave me, I think that as we've been discussing today, like, there's clearly some thing, there's something missing in my life on the spiritual side. Like, I'm doing all these overcompensating type challenges to avoid dealing with the real work that I have to do, which is like finding this like inner peace that we've been talking about. And seeing Shelby deal with her own mortality and the challenge that she's faced is incredibly scary. It's like I said earlier, when she was diagnosed, it's almost like I would have rather have terminal

• 1:44:34Ken Rideout?

  cancer because watching her feel scared and unsure for the first, certainly for the first week or two. And then eventually, like I was saying, the science is so advanced and medicine is so advanced. They outlined for us exactly what would happen and it almost seemed to happen in hyperspeed. It was all a blur in hindsight. And I remember telling her, like, this is all gonna be a distant memory because I didn't know what else to say to her. And I was trying to keep it positive. But there were definitely some like really low moments going through this before she had the surgery. And that was one of the most difficult periods of my life is just seeing her be scared.

• 1:45:16Ken Rideout?

  And not just seeing her be scared, but seeing the kids scared. And they all reacted wildly different, differently. Because for the first day or two, we're like, let's not tell the kids yet. And of course,

• 1:45:30Ken Rideout?

  The kids would see me talking to her and then just start crying and and like really crying. And then I'd walk out of the room and my kids were just like, what is going on here? And then eventually we just had to tell them because it was so obvious and um. The two older ones were like pretty matter of fact, but my middle son is very emotional and he was like. Man, he had a hard time. He was like told her like I I know you're gonna die. It was very, very traumatizing, but like I said, at some point, we just had to like suck it up and like try to find some strength. And um, I think that. The silver lining to this whole thing is that they saw her really like be strong and especially like once.

• 1:46:11Ken Rideout?

  We had the plan and she went through with the surgery, seeing her kind of like walking around and having like. Post-surgery with the drains in and I mean, it was it was a big surgery. So seeing them seeing her recover and. You know, women in general are so much more tough. If I had a cold, I would be like, oh, bring me this, bring me that like, you know, she they told her, don't get up. And she's up walking around and I'm like, they told you to lay down. She's like, I'm okay, I'm gonna be fine. Whereas I would be like. Have the bell. She she has, I'm like a big baby. When I'm sick, she brings a bell and it puts it next to the bed. She's like, just ring this bell if you need anything. I mean, usually the kids use it, but of course I abuse it when I have it myself, but um.

• 1:46:51Ken Rideout?

  She was an excellent example of the kids of how to be tough in the face of adversity and how to deal with fear because there were definitely a lot of fear and um. They also got an example of like how to lean into your faith. We say grace every night before we eat dinner when we eat as a family if the kids don't have sports and um. They talk a lot about being thankful for that. She's okay. And it's just. My wife is like the leader, you know what I mean? She's like the silent leader that does all the hard work like a like a female lion. She's the one that's like out there. Hunting and doing all the hard work and I'm like. Thinking I'm the like king of the jungle, but really she's leading from the front. Yeah, king baby. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  I love you, buddy. I love this journey that you're on. Like, I have seen so much, so much growth in you in the past couple of years. You know, it's a remarkable thing. And you're just, you're a real one, dude. You really are. I'm proud of you for this book, and I think it's gonna help a lot of people. And it's gonna, it's gonna move people too, because you're telling the truth, you know, and that's what these books should be.

• 1:47:59Ken Rideout?

  Well, I appreciate and love you, man. And thank you for having me. Like I said, without you, I genuinely don't think that this book happens. And I'm incredibly grateful that you allow me to come on and talk about the book as it comes out. As you know, writing a book is tremendous pressure to like, do all the things. And it's not easy to ask for help. So, thank you for making difficult situations a lot easier, and for being such a good friend. So, appreciate it, brother.

• 1:48:26Rich Roll?

  Back at you, man.

• 1:48:27Ken Rideout?

  Thank you.

• 1:48:28Rich Roll?

  Thanks again. Peace.