Pro Bodybuilder Nimai Delgado On Vegan Gains, Training Pains & Changing The Game

But where do you get your protein? I get this question a lot. Today's guest probably gets it more than anyone on Earth. A sweetheart of a guy rocking one of the world's most impressive physiques, this week's guest is an IFBB Professional Men’s Physique bodybuilder with a most unexpected twist: Nimai Delgado has never eaten meat in his entire life. Not one bite. Raised vegetarian since birth, Nimai switched to a 100% plant based unprocessed diet in 2015, motivated by a desire to live the healthiest lifestyle possible. Not long after, his bodybuilding career skyrocketed. Proving animal products unnecessary for peak fitness, Nimai is indisputable living testimony that you can indeed build tremendous strength and muscle mass without the meat and dairy products most of us have been told our whole lives are critical for health and absolutely mandatory athletic performance. Nimai's evolution into bodybuilding began as a personal mission to make friends, get fit and stay healthy. Success came swiftly. Within a year, he had won several contests, including the NPC USA Championships, earning him a spot among the IFBB professional ranks. A fresh new face making serious waves on the vegan athlete scene, Nimai has recently shifted focus from self to service — leveraging his rapidly growing profile into a global movement to teach people young and old how to gain muscle, get fit, be competitive and thrive long-term on a plant-based diet. Nimai's impressive vegan gains have graced the cover of Muscle & Fitness magazine and feature prominently in the hotly anticipated Gamechangers documentary. When he isn't killing it in the gym, he's hosting the recently launched Generation V podcast and sharing daily diet and fitness tips with his 265K Instagram followers. Perhaps you follow him on social media. Maybe you've seen him flexing in magazines. But there's so much more to Nimai than bulging biceps. Today we unpack the untold story. This is a conversation about what it was like being raised by Hare Krisha devotee parents who immigrated from Argentina. It's an open account of his experience growing up on a commune in rural south Mississippi. It's an exchange about how the bodybuilding subculture captured his interest. And it's about why he made the choice to go and stay vegan. Of course, we cover his training routines. We discuss his daily nutritional regimen. Yes, we talk protein — where he gets it and the misconceptions behind the hotly debated macro-nutrient. And because suspicion is unavoidable, I do ask him about steroids. But most of all, this is an exploration of the lesser known Nimai — the spiritual and ethical foundation beneath what he does, how he does it, and most importantly why. It was an honor to have this awesome human in the studio. It's my pleasure to share his wisdom with you today. And my hope is that our exchange will leave you not only inspired, but questioning more than a few long-held assumptions about the role of nutrition in athletic performance. To get a gander of this physical specimen, watch our entire conversation on YouTube at bit.ly/richandnimai Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  It's always about the hard work. It's always about the diet. It's always about sacrifice and effort. Your daily habits outside of the gym hold way more value than what you do inside of the gym. So if you can get your diet right, you can get your daily habits right, then the results will really start to come in. I'm not trying to convince anybody to go vegan, because I want them to go vegan. I'm just trying to help you. I just want you to feel as good as I feel. And if you put all this stuff aside, this ego and these paradigms, then maybe you can experience a different version of life that you never anticipated.

• 1:37Rich Roll?

  That's Nema Delgado, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast. The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody. How you guys doing? What is happening? How are you? How's it going? How is that commute going? How are you doing at the gym? What's happening on that treadmill? Are the kids good? Is the boss treating you okay? Are you getting along with the husband, the boyfriend, the girlfriend, the wife? Good. Really glad to hear it. Did I mention I am Rich Roll? I am your host. This is my podcast. Welcome. Take a breath. It's gonna be okay.

• 2:21Rich Roll?

  Lot of anticipation about today's episode. Really excited about it. Today's guest is an absolute beast of a human, an IFBB pro bodybuilder, who is rocking one of the most impressive physiques I have ever seen in my life. But here's the kicker. Here is the twist. Nimai Delgado has never eaten meat in his entire life, not one bite. Raised as a vegetarian, Nimai switched to a fully plant-based diet in 2015, and that's really when his bodybuilding career began to skyrocket. In other words, what I'm saying here is that this guy, Nimai Delgado, he is living proof, indisputable proof, that you can indeed build muscle mass

• 3:06Rich Roll?

  without meat and dairy, and that perhaps everything you may have heard, everything you may have been taught growing up about the necessity of animal products for health and athletic performance, well, it just might not be true. And beyond all of this, there's so much more to Nimai and his story than the physique, than meets the eye. And I'm going to elaborate on that in a minute, but first.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  Okay, Nimai Delgado. I really like this kid. I'm so excited for you guys to hear this conversation. What's really interesting about this guy is that his whole journey started out as really just a personal mission to stay fit and be healthy. And he has taken his accomplishments and really turned them into a full-blown movement. He is this young, fresh face who is now making serious waves on the vegan athlete scene by teaching people, all kinds of people, how it's possible to gain muscle and stay ripped or be competitive on a plant-based diet. His impressive vegan gains have graced the cover of Muscle and Fitness Magazine, and he is prominently featured in the upcoming and highly anticipated documentary,

• 4:23Rich Roll?

  The Game Changers, deservedly so, as this guy really is truly changing the game. On top of all of this, Nimai has this unbelievably fascinating backstory, growing up with Hari Krishna parents on essentially a commune in the rural South. And what is less known and understood about Nimai is the spiritual and ethical underpinnings that provide the why behind what he does and how he does it. He's a great dude. I really enjoyed talking to him. So let's get into it.

• 5:00Rich Roll?

  Let's do this, man. All right, Nimai in the house, man. So nice to meet you. Delighted to have you here today.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me, man. I'm actually really, really excited to be here.

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  Cool, man. Awesome. This is a long time coming. There's a lot of people excited about this. And just to kind of kick it off, I wanted to say publicly, like, I'm just, I'm such a huge fan of who you are, what you're doing, the way that you're carrying the message. And I think it's incredibly powerful. And I've said this many times before, but it's one thing for a guy like me, who's a skinny endurance athlete, to go and, you know, talk about the things that I care about. And it's another thing altogether when it's a guy like you, because you're, I mean, for people that are just listening on their iPhones or their mobile devices and not watching this on YouTube, you should watch it on YouTube

• 5:51Rich Roll?

  to get a glimpse of what this guy's all about, because you are absolutely jacked. You have one of the most incredible physiques I've ever seen. And when somebody who's so strong, who is so ripped, is speaking about the things that I've been shouting from the mountaintops for a long time, I think it has the potential to land in a very different way. And I think that, that...

• 6:17Rich Roll?

  That is a very potent way of spreading this message and I applaud you for kind of taking that mantle and running with it, so to speak.

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Wow, that was like incredibly humbling to hear. So I just want to say thank you for, I mean, the super nice words and even considering me to have on the show because I've been listening to you for quite some time now. So it's like, like you said, it's a long time coming and I've been manifesting it for quite a while. So it's awesome.

• 6:42Rich Roll?

  Well, here we are.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:44Rich Roll?

  All in, all in. I've learned to like trust timing on these things. They happen when they're, they're supposed to happen.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I completely agree.

• 6:51Rich Roll?

  And I think it's a good time. You know, here we are. You were recently on the cover of Muscle and Fitness. Yes. So that's, that's a huge deal to be on the cover of that magazine. You know, vegan or not vegan. And also we're kind of, as far as I know, we're on the cusp of the Game Changers movie coming out. When is that? Is there a date yet for the release of that?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  If I had a dollar for every time somebody asked me, I wish I knew. The moment I know, everybody else is going to know because I'll be the first one to be posting it all over social media. But yeah, I can just say that it's worth the wait.

• 7:21Rich Roll?

  Right, cool. So yeah, I haven't seen the movie yet, but I know that you figure prominently in that for good reason. So let's tell your story, dude. You have a really interesting backstory about how all of this began.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:34Rich Roll?

  That goes back to Argentina.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess it does. I guess it does. I'll just go back to the beginning, from the very beginning. So my heritage is Argentinian. Both of my parents were born and raised in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Came from, you know, primarily Catholic families, went through the whole system. And my mom actually, I guess she's the catalyst to this whole story coming about. When she was about, I don't know, 15 or so, she had a very public boyfriend. He was like, I don't know, the vice president's son or I don't know the exact story, but they owned a ranch and she went over one day and basically...

• 8:18Speaker 01

  He slaughtered a pig in front of her and she was kind of traumatized by it as a 15, 16 year old would be and made a decision right then that she wouldn't ever eat or touch meat again. And yeah, she just kind of lived her life from 15 on and

• 8:33Rich Roll?

  That was it, like she just, it wasn't like, it wasn't just in words only, like she actually lived up to that.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  No, yeah, exactly. If you knew my mom, she's probably the most compassionate person I've, selfless person I've ever met in my life. And I'm not just saying that because I'm a mom's boy, like I really do believe that. And yeah, so my, my grandpa, he was definitely apprehensive whenever she decided to give up meat for many reasons that you and I hear every single day.

• 8:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, Argentina is a big meat culture. I mean, the big, it's a big part of culture and just being social, I would imagine.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they're very like vivacious people, Argentinians. You can always, I can always spot one from a crowd or if it's a group of Latino people on a talk show, like you know, you can always spot the Argentinian because they're so loud, they're so full of energy, they, they talk with their hands, they're all like, you know, like, my grandpa was a prime example of that. So as you can say, as you can see or probably expect, like, she got a lot of slack for it, a lot of, I guess, you know, feedback from her friends, family and concern, but as luck would have it, somewhere along the line, she was introduced to another lifestyle and that was through the form of Hinduism.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  So at that time, I guess it must've been late 70s, early 80s, Hinduism was getting a little bit more westernized. I don't know if you remember that time or not, I was, I was born in 89, so.

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was graduating college when you were born, so yeah, I remember it well, yes.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 10:09Rich Roll?

  I don't know what it was like in Argentina, but.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, me either, but apparently.

• 10:13Rich Roll?

  But I think just basically in a general sense, being more open to eastern perspectives about spirituality in general.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was a very small culture still at the time, back then, and she really resonated with a lot of the, kind of the core beliefs of Hinduism and she still does. And one of those beliefs was that, you know, you don't eat meat. She basically

• 10:35Rich Roll?

  Ahimsa.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Ahimsa, yeah, exactly. Ahimsa, the concept of do no harm, live a life of not causing any suffering, any harm. But also, she almost, she basically renounced all material things as well. And devoted herself fully to service to God and went to a Hindu temple and started living in the temple. And that's kind of, you know, the love story that happened between her and my dad.

• 10:59Rich Roll?

  And they. So he was a renunciant also?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, for different reasons.

• 11:04Rich Roll?

  Like robes and the whole thing?

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:06Rich Roll?

  Like, literally no money begging for your food kind of thing?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Not necessarily begging for your food.

• 11:11Rich Roll?

  Relying on the generosity of strangers?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically selling books. That was their way of making money. They were selling versions of the Bhagavad Gita in the streets and they would have a stack of books. They'd go and sell them in the streets of Argentina, try to convince somebody, try to convince probably the most steak heavy eating country to go vegetarian and maybe switch over or be open minded to another religion entirely.

• 11:36Rich Roll?

  Kind of like how you see the Hare Krishnas?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Actually, it is the Hare Krishnas.

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  That's essentially the tribe that they went into. Yeah.

• 11:44Rich Roll?

  So she had the orange robes and like?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:46Rich Roll?

  She cut her hair off and all that?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Uh, she didn't. My dad did. So the men do that. So my men had a.

• 11:51Rich Roll?

  So your grandfather must have been really freaking out.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. My grandfather's a super conservative too. He's an airline pilot, Navy guy.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  So, I mean, you could, you could, you could just imagine what she had to go through and what he thought whenever she told him. She's like, hey, I'm, I'm leaving to go join this Hare Krishna movement and basically devote myself to God. And yeah, that's kind of the love story that happened between her and my dad. They met, fell in love, had my sister, who was born in Argentina and just kind of lived that way for a certain number of years. But then, uh, things in Argentina were a little bit tumultuous. So they didn't feel like it was the best environment to raise their children. And, you know, as the universe would have it, they went from a temple in Argentina to a temple in Brazil, in Florianopolis, had my brother in Brazil.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  And we're all two years apart. So they lived there for a few years, right on the beach. I see pictures of it and it was just a beautiful place. But yeah, like you were saying, all bald. My dad was all bald. They go to the temple. They had like a little vegetarian restaurant at the time that they were trying to, you know, keep, you know, sustain their lifestyle and everything. And then as luck would have it, their spiritual guru mentioned an opportunity to provide them with housing and a place to live in America. So my dad was like, I'll do it. I'll go. You know, the American dream is something that's known all around the world. And my dad basically went by himself, didn't know how to speak any English, went to, landed in Miami,

• 13:23Speaker 01

  started working as a taxi driver to get enough money essentially to move or to send back to my mom so she could have a plane ticket to come. Then that happened and my mom came with basically two and a half kids. So she was pregnant with me.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  She was pregnant with you. So you were born in the States.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm the gringo of the family. That's what they call me, gringo. Basically the only American born here and ended up in Miami in the late eighties. Wasn't, there was a lot going on in Miami at that time. So they ended up going to Central Florida to another temple in Alachua and then right outside of Gainesville. Then went to New Orleans because they heard about another opportunity there. First day in New Orleans, got their car stolen. So they were like.

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  Welcome to America.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. So they were like, yeah, maybe New Orleans is a little bit too crazy for us. So ended up having another.

• 14:10Rich Roll?

  They're like, come on, we already gave away all our worldly possessions. Like we just have this car.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  From their perspective, it wasn't too much of an issue other than inconvenience, right? They weren't too attached to anything at that time, but they were trying to provide their kids essentially with a better opportunity than they had. And there was another temple in Mississippi, in South Mississippi. And I'm going to paint a picture for you. It's in the middle of nowhere, the middle of the Bible Belt. And essentially it was a dirt road and they had a big.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Like a big sign in the front that said, "Welcome to New Talavan." Basically, International Society of Krishna Consciousness. This is one of their temples, one of their farms. And that's where I was born and raised.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:53Rich Roll?

  So was it like a commune?

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Um, not necessarily, but everybody that lived within the perimeter of the farm were Hindu.

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  So it's a pretty well-known establishment within the the community.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So this faith-based community, essentially Hare Krishnas. And this is, this is the, this is the environment in which you're reared.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  Deep in the South.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 15:17Rich Roll?

  That is wild.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Essentially, I tell people all the time, it's just a bubble. Like, I lived in a bubble. Like, you're talking about being raised in a bubble and not being...

• 15:24Rich Roll?

  A very unique, different kind of bubble than what people think of.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  So that's, that's where I grew up the first about six years of my life. So every day I'd wake up, 5:00 AM, go to the temple with my mom. I would be dressed head to toe in traditional clothing. I would wear the t-lock on my forehead. I'd wear, I still wear neck beads. We'd go to the temple, we'd chant mantras. And I lived in this like really cool little environment. I mean, it was, it was essentially, it was a cow rescue sanctuary as well. So they would rescue cows from different farms in the vicinity. And it was like in a Himza farm. So they would drink milk and have ghee and make yogurt and all these different things. But from the cows that were treated with love, respect and, and everything else. And we also had like a garden, like a community garden that was like almost self-sustaining.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  So they would have like feasts every day. They would make food for the, for the community members. And every Sunday, they would have a Sunday feast. And it was welcome to everybody, just like most temples around the world. Anybody can come and have food on Sundays.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  That's wild. It's almost like its own little blue zone.

• 16:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, essentially.

• 16:30Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Essentially.

• 16:31Rich Roll?

  And what was, when you would venture outside the perimeter of the farm into the local townships? I mean, how were you guys received and, and treated by the normal people that were living in the environment?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was always, it was always like...

• 16:47Rich Roll?

  Do you remember?

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:49Rich Roll?

  Do you have memories of?

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Vividly, vividly. I mean, the place where we were living, I mean, we were well-known within the outside community of who we were, and we were weird in those Hara Krishnas and their beliefs and, you know, their rituals or whatever they would call it. I mean, it's very foreign to the culture down there. So, we would go out, we would venture out to the, to the, to the real world, essentially. And, I mean, it was, it was different receptions from people. I mean, I remember vividly, whenever I was a little kid, that waking up to a burning cross outside of one of my friend's house.

• 17:24Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  And essentially, it was members of, you know, I guess, I would assume, the KKK, you know? I mean, that's unfortunately, still alive and real, and racism's a real thing still to this day. You know, so, it wasn't, it was challenging, I'll say that.

• 17:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's quite different for a community like that, to, to find a community like that, like in, let's say, like Big Sur, or, you know, an environment in which you kind of, you're not that surprised, you know? But, in the deep, deep south, that's a whole thing.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:57Rich Roll?

  Different altogether.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. I mean, it's its own little bubble, like I was mentioning, but that was until I was like, six. So, my parents, being the, the kind of free thinkers that they are, they wanted me to have more opportunities. So, they saw other kids that were being raised in that environment, that maybe they were living more of a very humble, faith-based life. And, they wanted us to get a proper education. So, they assimilated me into public school.

• 18:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:29Speaker 01

  And, I went to public school at a very young age. I remember, like, my first days at school, I would go to school with the markings, with the necklaces.

• 18:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  And, this is, this is the way my parents think. Like, oh, he'll be, he'll be fine. But essentially, they tossed me in the water and said, sink or swim, right? So, uh...

• 18:45Rich Roll?

  And how old were you?

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Uh, it was kindergarten through, uh, through the rest of high school.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  So, I, I was like, I'm a southerner. Like, it doesn't see...

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  You don't have an accent, though?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Oh, I fought it.

• 18:55Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  I fought it, yeah. I mean, my parents speak Spanish within the household. But, I never felt like I belonged, essentially. Like I was saying, I lived in a bubble, so it was like...

• 19:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not surprising that that's how you felt. I mean, I would imagine even in kindergarten, having some awareness of just being very different from everyone else.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was it was made apparent to me very quickly. That was different than anybody else.

• 19:19Rich Roll?

  So were you, were you, what kind of kid were you? Were you bullied as a kid? Were you a quiet kid? Were you an outgoing kid? Did you play sports?

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Definitely a quiet kid. I was always an observer. My grandpa used to call me the philosopher because I wouldn't really talk that much. I was very observant, but when I did speak, it was like something profound or something with like some thought behind it.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  Grooving you to be the next guru.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, essentially, essentially. So I would always, you know, I would, I just kind of accepted from a very early start that I was different and accepted the fact that not everybody was raised the way I was raised because it was made apparent to me. So I understood that kids were going to have their judgments on me. They were going to say things to me and I, you know, to this day, I asked my parents, I was like, what did you teach me as a kid? To not be tempted to kind of rebel or, you know, just be one of the other kids and just like, adopt that lifestyle. And they were like, we just taught you to, to, to love yourself, love who you are, respect other living beings, and we just kept reinforcing it.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  And we trusted in you and we knew that you had understood from an early age that that was the way that we lived and, you know, we don't eat animals. And I just kind of like, I was like, oh, it makes sense.

• 20:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:37Rich Roll?

  It is wild that you didn't have that impulse to rebel. Like, it would have been very, the predictable course would have been to say, screw this, man, like, you know, I'm out of here. I want to be, you know, the peer pressure, I mean, as a parent with, you know, I've got a 14 year old daughter, I have two older boys, like, I know how intense that can be to conform and to fit into the flow of society and to be able to have the Emotional wherewithal to to remain true to what you felt was your north star instilled by your parents. I mean, that takes a certain level of of self-awareness and and self-confidence.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's developed over time, like things test you, like just like anything in life. People will pick and prod and kids can be really cruel. I'll just say that. Kids can be really cruel. I don't know how many times I've had, even when I was growing up, I'd bring my lunch, obviously. And, you know, I'd open up my lunchbox and here they are. I grew up on Indian food, too.

• 21:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Both of my parents were really good chefs. I don't know if I grew up on Argentinian vegetarian food or Indian food.

• 21:41Rich Roll?

  Like Indian food with an Argentinian flair to it?

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Essentially, essentially, yes.

• 21:45Rich Roll?

  Do they still live there?

• 21:46Speaker 01

  No, no, no, they don't.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  We'll get to that. Go ahead, sorry.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  So essentially, I'd open up my lunchbox and like, I mean, the flavors that Indian food contain cumin, turmeric, all of these things are curry. All these things are very, they have a strong odor to them. So I'd open up my lunchbox and immediately the first thing everybody would say would be like, like, what is that? Like, what are you eating, Nima? And I'd be like, I don't know, my parents cooked it and I'm just gonna eat it. And they would always like put burgers in my face, chicken nuggets, all this stuff they serve at, you know, in high school and elementary school. And I'd be like, oh, I'll give you a dollar to eat it or just try it. And I never really understood that, like why somebody would get so much joy out of me doing what they wanted me to do. So I kind of, I come almost like made a stance against it.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  And I was like, no, I'm just, I'm not gonna do it to almost prove a point and just stay true to who I was. And that kind of helped me build up that strength and that confidence that like, I am who I am, take it or leave it, and at the same time, still wanting to be accepted.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  So I ended up becoming a chameleon, you know? I learned how to deflect really easily and really early on. So when people would ask me at birthday parties, you know, why aren't you eating hot dogs? I would just say, I just don't like them, you know? And I would just make, I'd make Dorito sandwiches. So I'd get like two pieces of bread, some like cheddar cheese and put some Doritos on it. And that would be my meal when I go to like birthday parties and stuff. And even in so other social situations where parents would come up to me and they'd be like, "Nima, are you hungry? Let me cook for you." And I just like, I hated that pressure of being different and being like a nuisance. So somebody had to like go the extra mile just to provide for me. So I was just like, no, you know, I'm, I'm fine. Like I'm, I'm just okay. I'll have chips.

• 23:28Rich Roll?

  But still maintaining that boundary, you know? I would think like a small child, after a while, you're like, fine, you know? And also this idea of you, like this sense that you have of this is who I am. This is, this is my set of core values. Did you ever have a reckoning, like a moment where you're like, well, wait a minute, are these my core values? Or are these just the values that I've always known because my parents were impressing them upon me? Like, is this what I believe? Or is this just what I've been told my whole life?

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. I think everybody goes through that at some point in their life. At least those who do reflection find themselves at that position in that crossroads is like, am I who I am or am I who I was told to be? Right? But for me, I, I really did believe that it made sense. Like I'm a logical person. It all made logical sense, you know? Like when I was younger, if I was presented with a few situations in front of me, if I had an apple or like a, you know, a baby chicken, I wouldn't rip his head open and start eating the baby chicken. I would just reach for the apple. So that same concept kind of can be extrapolated. And just because you're not the one that's, you know, taking the animal's life,

• 24:42Speaker 01

  doesn't mean the life isn't taken. So it just made sense, you know? I just kind of thought of it logically like that.

• 24:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people sort of just think, well, you know, that, that chicken breast is already, has already been killed and it's been. Bone and it's in the packaging at the grocery store. So does it really matter whether I buy it or not? Because it's already there and somebody's gonna buy it. Like, and it's easier to kind of be in denial or not, you know, solve that mathematical equation about where your, what your dollars are contributing to.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a sense, but I mean, not all life is determined by dollars and cents. I mean, if luckily I was raised from like a Karmic perspective too. So that's kind of where I understood that I'm, you know, I believe I'm not this body. You know, it's just a vessel for me. And one day I might be in that, that chicken's body. So I wouldn't like that to happen to me. So why would I do it to it when I'm completely fine living without it?

• 25:39Rich Roll?

  You've come this far. You don't want to go backwards in that cycle, right?

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, the, the concept of ahimsa karma, all these things, they add up over time. And I figured if I can just refrain from contributing to it, because even by buying a packaged chicken breast, you basically pay someone that's sitting in an office.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  That is their job to think, how can we kill more animals more efficiently? How can we extract from them more products? And you're paying that person. So, um, yeah, you still contribute to the, you know, the suffering and everything else.

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So never eaten meat in your entire life?

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Never.

• 26:19Rich Roll?

  Not even by accident?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  On, on purpose, I've never have. The one time I can recall where I ate it or I had it like in my mouth on accident was, um, I was in Taco Bell and God, I used to get, I used to eat Taco Bell a lot.

• 26:32Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Like, uh, bean and cheese, burritos, cheese quesadillas. And I ordered a cheese quesadilla, bit into it, immediately noticed the texture difference. It was like chunky and I just spit it out immediately. I started like getting like nauseous and it's just like the thought of that, just like kind of. Reinforced that it wasn't for me, you know? So that was, that was probably when I was in like ninth grade or so. So, you know, I've had moments where, uh, I mean, that's not the only, you know, scenario where something like that's happened. But, and I'm sure somewhere along the line, maybe I've accidentally consumed it and just completely unaware of it. But, uh, I just don't think, like, I consider my body like, I try to keep it as pure as possible and just, I just refrain from it.

• 27:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So, high school rolls around, you're still living in the community.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 27:22Rich Roll?

  Your parents moved out of that?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  When I was about seven years old. And we moved to a more, um, traditional southern community.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  And you start wearing like normal clothes and stuff like that?

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I wore normal, like, I, I went back home. I don't know what I said to my parents whenever I was younger, but I was like, just, just dress me normally, you know? And, uh, cause my sister was like, she was four years older than me, so she was dealing with it on another level. Uh, cause, cause she was also the white, Spanish speaking, uh, Hindu person with a weird name. So, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different things happening there to stand out. Uh, so she was like, I just want to blend in, just put me in normal clothes. And I was the same way, just put me in normal clothes and I'll assimilate.

• 28:01Rich Roll?

  Right. And you have, and your brother's older than you as well?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, my brother's two years older.

• 28:05Rich Roll?

  So they were kind of like the canaries in the coal mine out there, like, you know?

• 28:09Speaker 01

  This is what's to come.

• 28:09Rich Roll?

  Data testing. Yeah. Like, and so by the time you become of age, like, your parents sort of figure out like, okay, like, we can't do that.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 28:16Speaker 01

  And my sister's very vocal too, so I'm sure she let them know immediately, like, you need to stop this.

• 28:22Rich Roll?

  What, what do they do now?

• 28:24Speaker 01

  Uh, so my sister, ironically, she works, uh, for cardiologists as a echo technician. So she'll do heart scans. Uh, my parents, they have their own businesses, uh, as well as my brother. And I'm out here in California, just kind of figuring out life.

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, uh, so when, when you're in high school, are you playing sports? Are you athletic?

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've always been athletic. Like, I grew up and naturally I played soccer. When I was younger, I was like the young Argentinean. I had long hair too, so I was like, the Argentinean dude, like Argentinians are good at soccer. And I played soccer for quite some time and then was introduced to skating and I got hooked on skating when I was like 11 or 12 years old. And I'm talking about like-

• 29:06Rich Roll?

  Skateboarding or ice skating?

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Like, no, no, no. I figure skating. Uh, like inline, inline skating.

• 29:12Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  So like aggressive inline skating. So at that time, it was becoming really popular. It was all over ESPN. Uh, all those, the mobile skate parks that would do these tours and whatnot. And, uh, I got, I went to the skate park on accident. I thought I was going to a skating rink. And ended up at this skate park with these huge half pipes and bowls and all this stuff. And I was just immediately hooked. And, uh, I'm a bit of a daredevil too, so, uh, I got really good at it really quick. And even, I think by the time I was 13 or 14, I won some competition to like tour the, tour the country with like a, um, like an organization that did like mobile skate parks. And there was like professional skateboarders, professional rollerbladers and professional bikers. And I was doing that at like 13.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  And then, uh, skated all the way up until pretty much high school. And just kind of started like, you know, venturing out, just living a little bit more normal. Cause I was like, I do, when I do things, I had like go a hundred percent into it. It's just like my, my nature. So I like figuring out how something works. I like

• 30:13Speaker 01

  perfecting it or mastering the skill and then just doing it. And, um, yeah, that was about until I was 18. But I mean, even like in high school, I kind of like would keep them, keep my life separate. Like I'd have my skating friends and then I'd have my high school, like normal friends. Cause it was like-

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  Who, what were the high school friends like? Like what kind of crowd did you fall into? Were you with, like with the jocks or with like the stoners or the geeks? Like-

• 30:36Speaker 01

  I do, I'm a chameleon, man. I blend in with everybody. Yeah.

• 30:39Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  I, I, I always had friends in every-

• 30:41Rich Roll?

  That's like a survival, it's a survival technique, maybe, you know? Coming from that environment and realizing like if I wanna make this work in the real world, like I have to be adaptable.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I was always like a little bit more like on the intelligent side, I was only in bands classes, so I had friends with that were like considered geeks or nerds and stuff and like I love those people. And then I always like have the more socialite crowd where they were going to parties and all this stuff. And then the jocks, the goths, at that time, there was a lot of goths in my high school. And like I blended in with everybody, you know. So I, I mean, I'm sure if you'd ask, hopefully, if you'd ask, like a lot of my high school friends, I was pretty well liked throughout high school. But like many of them didn't know like who I was at the same time. They knew who, who I portrayed, you know, but then-

• 31:30Rich Roll?

  They knew the guy that you wanted them to know.

• 31:32Speaker 01

  Almost.

• 31:33Rich Roll?

  They didn't necessarily know.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, a few people did. A few of my close friends, you know, I had like a really tight inner circle of friends and they did. And they accepted me and they, that's why like I became more comfortable being who I was with them. But then outside of that, I never really talked about like my background or being a vegetarian or anything like that.

• 31:49Rich Roll?

  Was there anybody else from the community in your high school or any other vegetarians in your high school?

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Um, not that I remember.

• 31:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:56Rich Roll?

  All right. But the bodybuilding thing doesn't come until much later.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:59Rich Roll?

  Right? So you-

• 32:00Speaker 01

  We're almost there.

• 32:01Rich Roll?

  You go to college, right?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost there.

• 32:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you become this engineer.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:07Rich Roll?

  And do you, you start hitting the weights in college or what's, what's the college experience? You go to, are you, you're in Louisiana or something like that?

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So I actually started and kind of, I went to the gym for my first time ever was in, I guess my sophomore or junior year of high school. And I was always a small kid too. I was like a really, like I was always the shortest kid in my class. And it wasn't until like after high school that I hit like a growth spurt. And I made, I might've graduated high school at five, five, 130 pounds, 100, something like that.

• 32:38Rich Roll?

  Wow. No football career.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not at all. I loved football, but I just knew I would get destroyed and ate up if I, if I played football. So I went, I went to the gym, but I had no idea what I was doing. I'll just be honest. I'd go to go. It was like a social hour for me. I'd see people I'd like to think I was working out at the time. And then I ended up going to college at LSU and studying engineering and majority of my time was spent studying for engineering. Cause it's a, it's a, it's a difficult major to be in. But at the same time, I was enjoying college. I was partying, you know, going to football games, all that stuff. I'm a huge LSU fan, college football fan.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  And then I started hitting the gym a little bit more because I was like, hey, maybe I'll get a girlfriend or something, you know? Just like I had, I had a growth spurt too. So I was like growing and it was nice, you know? Yeah. And I remember my freshman year, they say you gained 15 pounds your freshman year. I really did. But not in the sense that you would, like not in muscle. Just like came into your body. A little bit, a little bit more too. So I, I lived like on campus, close to a Taco Bell. And I remember they had these things called like points. It was like a point system that you bought with a meal plan. So you could use it at different restaurants on campus. And I would go every night and get like four, it might've been five, five bean burritos. Cause I didn't know how to cook and that was like my meal before I go to bed. I eat like three bean burritos before I go to bed and wake up and eat two and take it with me to class.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  So I was eating a lot of like just crap. Taco Bell. Yeah, a lot of crap essentially. And I, I put on like 15 pounds whenever I was like a freshman.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Continued going to the gym, but still didn't really get anywhere, you know? I had like a sort of athletic body. And then it wasn't until my last year of college that I went through a breakup and they say breakups make bodybuilders. That's essentially what happened. I've never heard that, but that makes sense. You'd be surprised. If you do a poll, ask how many bodybuilders started their career because of a breakup. It's a pretty high number. Yeah, I can see that. A high percentage. So I, I broke up with my ex and started, it was, I gave up alcohol at that time too. And I was like, you know, what am I? That's tough at LSU. Yeah, it only lasted for so long. But I figured if I gave up alcohol, maybe I'd get her back. Or I don't know what my process was.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  I just kind of want to take a step back and really figure out who I was. And I made friends with personal trainers at a gym. Because I was going to like the rec center on campus and my ex worked there. So I was like, I'm not going to go there anymore. And I went to another gym, made friends with some personal trainers. And then I really started understanding more concepts about training. And I made like a huge amount of progress within a year. And that was my last year of college. And then I ended up accepting a job offer in California.

• 35:35Rich Roll?

  So the idea is white sand beaches, warm water, palm trees, girls in bikinis, riding your bike on the beach.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking.

• 35:46Rich Roll?

  I'm going to California.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  I'm going to California. Like, see you later, suck town. Like, I'm going to California. And I accepted this job offer with an oil and gas company, mind you. So I was a mechanical engineer and I got this job offer to do. I didn't even know what the hell the job offer was for exactly. But I was like, I'm going to California and they pay well, so I'm going to accept it. And because, mind you, I came from really humble beginnings as well. So money was always like a topic of conversation.

• 36:13Rich Roll?

  Like, I'm not going to be a renounce yet.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  Essentially, yeah. Because I saw, you know, growing up in a humble household, you see how much your parents talk about it and struggle and worry about it. And they did everything and they provided me with like a beautiful childhood. And like, I'm still amazed at how they did it. But, you know, I made it to my, I felt like I had a duty to them to find a great paying job so that I would fulfill their original plan of giving me better opportunity.

• 36:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  So my brother and sister had their own paths. They're, you know, they're successful in their own ways. But they didn't follow like a straight line like I did. And I was just like, I'm going this way. And this is where the money's at, so I'm going there. And I accepted this engineering job with the intention of working in Long Beach, California. I was like, well, it's not LA, but it's close. There's beach there, so it's got to be like, you know, cool. In the hiring process. They called me and they were like, yeah, position in Long Beach has been, you know, changed and we need you in Bakersfield.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  So.

• 37:16Rich Roll?

  So like, all right, you don't quite know the difference.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Oh, not at all. So I, I, I respond back like, what's Bakersfield? And they're like, that's just another job offer. And I was like, all right. At this point, I'd already rejected a bunch of other job offers. So I was like committed at this point. So I Google Bakersfield and I find out it's like, you know, it's got terrible air pollution. Uh, it's a big oil and gas town. Didn't know much else about it, but I was like, okay, I'm going. And, uh, graduated college, packed up my Jeep, didn't take anything with me and just moved to Bakersfield.

• 37:45Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And started working as an engineer.

• 37:48Rich Roll?

  Right. And, uh, realizing that you're in sort of California's version of the South, right? Like a little bit, like it's, you know, it's farm, it's agricultural, um, it's rural.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  Gas for sure too. But when you, for somebody who's never been to California, when you think of California, Bakersfield is a very different vibe.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. And, and nothing, and nothing against Bakersfield.

• 38:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Like I loved Bakersfield when I was there. It's very familiar to me. Uh huh. But I had the dreams of like the California, you know, like skateboarding along the boardwalk and stuff like that. Um, so I get there and basically come back to the South. It's, I think it's one of the only, um, it's like the most conservative county, Kern County in California, one of them at least. And, uh, start working for the oil and gas company, find out really quickly that there's not much to do there, uh, other than like drink and, I don't know, farm, I guess.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  And you didn't know anybody there either, right?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Oh, not a soul, not a soul. But that's how driven I was to get out of the South and just like, kind of find a place that was more aligned with what I believed in. You know, I knew that California was a little bit more open minded and I was like, hey, maybe I could thrive there, find more like-minded people. I never had a problem making friends, but I did have this desire to kind of find my tribe essentially. And, um, So, started working as an engineer. I didn't like it. From the start, I never liked it. Basically, to not bore your listeners or to put them to sleep, I was in charge of making sure pipelines, vessels, and tanks didn't blow up or leak. So, it was a lot of compliance, a lot of regulation.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  That's important, though.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Oh, very important job.

• 39:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Very important. A lot of non-destructive testing, ultrasonic techniques, and I was the guy that basically walked into the operations office, the operations team, and said, "Hey, we need to shut down. We need to make a $10 million repair. We're gonna have to replace two miles' worth of 16-inch pipeline," which is like their main feeder for their power plant and everything.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  So, no one wanted to hear from you?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Oh, no. It was like the most least liked department in the, like, in the company. As soon as my team walked in, everybody like rolled their eyes and like, "Ah, crap, here's these guys." Like, we're the police, essentially, making sure that the oil company followed the rules.

• 40:02Rich Roll?

  Like I A D in the police department.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Essentially, yeah, essentially. So, you could see, like, my frustration is like, I feel like I'm doing a good job, but then it's not well-received. And I just got bored. I got so bored about talking about corroding pipe and inspections and replacing pipelines and tanks and vessels and doing calculations all day. And I just knew it wasn't for me. And at that time, I would leave work. I'd work nine hours a day. I'd leave work, go home, change, and just go to the gym. And that's kind of where I didn't have anything else to do. I didn't have much friends, so I was like, "I'll just focus on working out." Like, I liked it that last year of college. I'll just continue to do this, 'cause I make friends in the gym. Maybe I'll meet some gym buddies. I'll get to know the town a little bit better. And that's exactly what happened.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  So, I just made some friends in the gym, started working out with more, like, I guess you could say, advanced, you know, bodybuilders, or there was, like, the bodybuilding community in Bakersfield, like... It's a unique place. I'll just put it that way. It's a unique place. A lot of big dudes with big jacked up trucks, big muscles and a lot of money too, because they work in the oil industry too. So.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  So these guys become like your bodybuilding mentors.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Essentially, yeah, essentially. So I started hanging around.

• 41:16Rich Roll?

  You had a little bit of like training, understanding from your last year in college, but you're just, I'm just, you're just going to the gym. I'm going to get jacked.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, same intention, same intention.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  And now maybe I'll get a big truck.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I have a big, I have a big Jeep. So I almost fit into that crowd. Yeah, it just wasn't the size that I wanted to be yet.

• 41:36Rich Roll?

  It's not big enough.

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so you can see like my chameleon at work here because I fit in with like these big tatted up like, like almost blue collar guys, but yet in like the engineering world or the oil field world, like the blue collar guys don't necessarily hang out with like the engineers too much because there's like a, you know, just like a hierarchy or whatever you want to call it, like a social system within the the community as well. So I like blended in with those guys. I got along with them. We go get drinks and all this stuff and we work out together. And, um, you know, naturally you get bigger when you work out with guys that push you. And that's what happened. And I remember distinctly what happened

• 42:19Speaker 01

  was started getting more into shape. So I started looking more into nutrition. And I was like, how is nutrition affecting my gains? So that's when I started trying to optimize my nutrition and my way of optimizing my nutrition as a vegetarian at that time was I'll just take a lot more whey protein shakes. Because protein equals muscle, right? Or at least that's what I thought.

• 42:41Rich Roll?

  Right. I can't eat the chicken breast.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, no chicken breast.

• 42:44Rich Roll?

  And you weren't eating eggs.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  No eggs. Yeah, no eggs. At that time, the only like animal based products I was eating was Greek yogurt. I had a lot of Greek yogurt because I was like pretty high in protein. Not too bad of macros and calories. A lot of whey protein shakes.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Wasn't too huge on cheese, except for cheese pizza, bean burritos, that kind of thing. And, uh,

• 43:09Speaker 01

  What else? I think that was about it.

• 43:10Rich Roll?

  Just basically like more protein, the more protein, the better.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Essentially, yeah.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  And if I'm not gonna eat meat, I'm just gonna be pounding these shakes.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And I quickly found out that my stomach didn't digest whey protein. You wouldn't wanna be around me if I drank a protein shake because it was just like I'd bloat, I'd be gassy all day, you know, blame it on other people, I'd be like, yeah, that guy stinks, you know? But the truth was like, I wasn't meant to digest whey protein shakes, just never sat well. And then, I forget exactly how the chain of events happened, but I remember this part. I went to San Diego to visit a friend, was driving back up the PCH, ended up stopping in Huntington Beach, because I always liked Huntington Beach for some reason, and the vibes there. I just go along the Huntington Beach Pier, and they have like the beach boardwalk that goes underneath the pier, and I was standing up there,

• 43:59Speaker 01

  and I looked down and there's a demonstration going on. It happened to be PETA, or some kind of animal, I don't know if it was PETA exactly, but it was some kind of animal rights activist group. And they had a huge plate, and on the plate, they had giant carrots, giant peas, and people in like a nude bodysuit. They'd look like chicken breasts, you know, if you like took a step back and looked from a distance, it looked like a plate of chicken, peas, and carrots. And they had this sign that said like, "How does it look now?" And, you know, I didn't eat meat, it wasn't, it didn't affect me that much. And I was just like enjoying watching people's reaction to that demonstration.

• 44:35Rich Roll?

  People getting angry.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, they were yelling, people were yelling, everything was, it just wasn't a good scenario. They were handing out pamphlets, and as I'm sitting there leaning on the railing watching this, a woman comes up to me and she hands me a pamphlet, and she goes, I don't know what the hell she said, but I was just like politely handed the pamphlet back to her, and I said, "No, thanks, I'm already vegetarian, I don't eat meat." And she looked at me, and I forget this, and she goes with like, just like a super condescending voice, and she goes, "Well, do you drink milk, or do you eat cheese?" And I was like, "Yeah." And she was like, "Well, do you know that that's one of the most cruel industries, and it's even more cruel than the meat industry, and you're contributing to that?"

• 45:18Speaker 01

  And like, I then, at that point, I like handed the pamphlet back to her, I was like, "You know what? I don't really care, it's not for me." And I left, and went home, and I just thought it was a weird scenario. And as the universe would have it, again, I was on Facebook, and I think my mom actually posted a video about some kind of slaughterhouse of the dairy industry, something like that. And I like sat down and thought about it and I saw with my own eyes this video of what was going on in like dairy farms and how the cows were just kind of like locked in a cage where they couldn't move their head and they just had these mechanisms hooked up to them and they were sucking the juices out and I just thought to myself, I was like, wow, like I'm contributing to that by eating it.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  And I made a decision like on the spot and I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I just decided to give up dairy together too. Like as ineffective as I thought that, you know, whole scenario was, it, it worked because it planted a seed in my mind and I just happened to see another thing that reinforced it. And I just changed and I went, I went plant-based at that moment.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  Wow. And before that, you'd never flirted with the idea of going vegan or you hadn't developed any awareness of dairy industry practices or anything like that?

• 46:29Speaker 01

  I, I think like I knew a little bit, uh, but.

• 46:32Rich Roll?

  But you're like, come on, man. I've never eaten meat. Like, leave me alone.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was my argument. I was like, dude, I'm, I'm doing less harm. Uh, you don't kill the cow. What's it like? What's the big deal? You know? Uh, but yeah, uh, there is a big deal. So I ended up, I ended up giving that up and I was just like, all right, like now what? Like, I guess I'll go vegan or I guess I'll go plant-based. And I had known about.

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  What year was this?

• 46:58Speaker 01

  This was, um, I was 25, so I'm 28 now, or 28, oh, actually about to be 29, 29 in a few weeks. So, yeah, almost four years ago. And, uh, I basically started looking up, uh, plant-based nutrition because I, at this time, I'm still, you know, very into bodybuilding and, and whatnot. I knew you could build muscle. I knew there's a lot of myths out there about not eating meat because I was like doing it, you know, I was building muscle without eating meat. But I really did, you know, have my, my doubts about building muscle without any animal product, without my, my whey protein and my Greek yogurt. And, uh, Yeah, I just kind of, I was like, well, now I'm in it. I can't go back. I'll just make this work.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  And that's when I started figuring out, hey, there's a lot of health benefits to not eating dairy and whey protein and all this other stuff. So I switched over my whey shakes with plant-based shakes. I started incorporating a lot more like legumes and lentils into my nutrition program at the time. And yeah, I just went, you know, dove headfirst.

• 48:02Rich Roll?

  And what were the resources that you were looking to? Like, was it YouTube videos? Or were you reading books? Or like watching Dr. Gregor's videos? Or like Robert Cheek has his vegan bodybuilding site at the time. I don't know how active he is on that now, but there were some resources available.

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were some at that time. I think it had to have been, what, 2000? It was like 2014, the end of 2014, beginning of 2015, when that kind of transition happened. And I looked up vegan fitness, vegan bodybuilding, that stuff. And I did come across Robert Cheek's website and there was a lot of great resources there. But I'm a much more like practical guy. I just like to be my own kind of experiment and to see what works, what doesn't work.

• 48:43Rich Roll?

  You're gonna engineer yourself, the engineer.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  That's exactly what happened. I like to figure out how things work, optimize it, and maximize it. And I just started eating more, learning that I can incorporate more carbs, a little bit less protein. I read a book, I wish I could remember the name of the book. It was called like Vegetarian Sports Nutrition or something, and I learned a lot about that book. And I just kind of reassured that, you know, I can do this. I can do this. And at the gym, one day I was walking into the gym and there was a guy that was selling supplements. And I knew him. He was doing like a little giveaway type of thing. And he goes, hey, man, you're looking pretty good. You should do a bodybuilding show. I just laughed. I was like, yeah, right.

• 49:24Rich Roll?

  I mean, did you look, how did you look then versus like what I'm looking at right now?

• 49:28Speaker 01

  So I was in good shape. I was definitely in good shape, but I was about... Thirty pounds lighter. So I, uh, maybe not thirty pounds. I was probably about twenty pounds lighter. Um, so right now about one, I don't know, one ninety, somewhere around there. At that time, I was like one sixty,

• 49:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  one sixty-five, somewhere around there. And, um, I, I literally laughed in his face. I was like, yeah, right, dude. Like, you think I'm gonna get on stage in like a speedo and flex in front of like a crowd of judges? Like, first of all, what would my like corporate job think of that? Like, if they saw pictures floating around of me in a speedo?

• 50:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and the Hare Krishna community.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Oh, at that time, I had like, at that time, I, I had completely kind of like, uh, almost disassociated myself with the Hare Krishna movement because, um, I didn't feel like I belonged at the time. I had been spending so much time in my life suppressing it and downplaying it, but I did become disconnected. Like, there was a disconnection there. So, uh, I stopped going to the, to the temple for a long time. Uh, would go back to the temple when I'd go visit my parents and whatnot. Uh, but I never really went proactively on myself and learned more or did more reading on it and kind of really understand, uh, the entire thing. So I wasn't worried about the Hare Krishnas, is what they thought.

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  I'm just like, I can't escape like the juxtaposition, like the, the contrast of those two worlds. Like, the bodybuilding world and like the Hare Krishna community.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I'll get into that later, too.

• 50:56Rich Roll?

  Okay, good.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I'll get into that later, too. Uh, so, so here I am at the gym and this guy's like, can, trying to convince me to do this show. He's like, dude, it's in Bakersfield. Like, come on. Like, it's in, it's in two months. You got enough time. You look great. Uh, I know a guy, he can help get you stage ready. And I was like, no, dude, like, that's just not for me. Like, I could never see myself doing that. And he, he connected me with the guy either way. And I was like, well, maybe I could learn something anyway. And the guy was like, hey, you should do the show. You look great. You have a good chance of winning. And I was like, you know what? Like, can we curse in here?

• 51:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, I was like, yeah, fuck it. Like, why not?

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  What else you got going on?

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I was like, I hate my job. Like, I might as well find something that I'm passionate about, and maybe, I like working out. Maybe this will give me a goal to strive for. And I picked the date, and I remember I trained for eight or nine weeks, somewhere around there. I contacted this coach, and he had no experience with vegetarianism, veganism especially. And he was like, look, I can't help you with what to eat, but maybe I can give you some guidance on like, how much to eat.

• 51:55Rich Roll?

  And is the coach, is it, is it, is the focus really on the nutrition side of it? Or is it on the actual training aspect of getting ready for something like that?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  So I thought it was on training, but you quickly realize that it's all about nutrition. You know, it's, if you have a good foundation and you focus strictly on nutrition, you don't even have to go to the gym and you can...

• 52:17Rich Roll?

  It's like, because if you can get lean enough, like, it overcomes the fitness because you looked more jacked than you actually are.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, we all have muscle under here. It's just about trying to expose it, right? So if you just eat correctly, you can expose that muscle a lot greater by reducing the amount of body fat you have on your, on your body. So he helped me with how much to eat, and I was just kind of left in the lab, you know, mad scientist style, like picking different foods and experimenting, and trying to see which foods work best to yield the best results. So like, as you could imagine, I'm a data-driven person. So I would track everything. I tracked my workouts. I tracked how much I ate, how many calories, how many micronutrients, macronutrients. Everything was in the nutritional program that I was following.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  So you're doing like, spreadsheets and stuff?

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I'm a spreadsheet guru, man.

• 53:07Rich Roll?

  And where are you getting your, your workout routines from? The dudes at the gym?

• 53:11Speaker 01

  A combination, a combination. So he gave me a workout routine and I followed it. And then I did my own stuff, like, I always had my own routines that I would do because I knew what, like, worked best for me. And, you know, eight weeks later go by, and, you know, now we're here at the show day, and I'm like terrified. I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I didn't get up there on, in like a... What do you call it? Speedo. I didn't get up there on Speedo. I did a different division called Men's Physique and they wear the board shorts. They wear like the beach shorts.

• 53:42Rich Roll?

  I didn't even know that they were different.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, there's a lot of different, there's lots you don't know about bodybuilder man. It's a different, it's a different subculture.

• 53:48Rich Roll?

  This is not IFBB.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  No, no. So this was an organization called IMBA, which is International Natural Bodybuilding Association.

• 53:56Rich Roll?

  And Hold on a second, because I like, this is like a subculture I know nothing about. So do you like shave your body and do the fake tan thing and put the oil all over you and like, and are you starving yourself for like a week to get as lean as possible? Like, is it like a wrestler protocol where you're trying to literally lose as much, not just fat, but water content? Like, what does that look like?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's, it's kind of similar to a wrestling protocol or like an MMA protocol. But you want to be as efficient as possible. So you want to reduce as much body fat. You want to reduce as much water retention as possible in the final week. Well, actually, the weeks, the weeks leading up to it, you want to reduce as much body fat. The final week, you're more focused on reducing the amount of water retention that you have. So you can appear as lean and crisp as possible.

• 54:48Rich Roll?

  Right. And what are the techniques for doing that?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Similar to, similar to wrestling, where you do water loading and you do a lot of cardio.

• 54:56Rich Roll?

  You wear like that suit that makes you sweat and get on the treadmill?

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Some people do. I'm not a big sweater, so I don't really sweat that much water out of me. And it's not a really good approach, because you just reintroduce water and you, you store it again. So the way it works is that like the week leading up to the show is called Peak Week. And there's different strategies for it. At that time, what I was doing was water loading at the beginning of the week. So I'd drink like, start off at one gallon, then I'd go to two gallons a day, then I'd go to three gallons a day. And then towards the end of the week, I would, I would basically, or sorry, I'll go back. I would drink, I would water load at the beginning of the week. And I would reduce as much as possible the amount of carbs I was eating, because the theory is that carbs attract water. You want to deplete all of your glycogen stores.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  So all of this extra fluff and water that you have in your system, you want to burn as many calories and deplete yourself as much as possible. So you look really like a raisin, like shriveled and flat. And you can't get a pump in the gym. It's just miserable. You're like, you have carb head, like carb fog. That's what they call it. You can't think straight. You get hangry.

• 56:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's so ironic because you feel terrible, right? But then your skin's like paper thin.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. So I tell people this all the time. Like the guys on stage, they look the best, but they feel the worst.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we hear that all the time. Also, you know, these guys will say, and I'm sure you would mimic this, that you can only maintain, you, whatever, you know, you get that photograph on stage and then literally like six hours later, you know, when you, when you finish and then you eat or you drink water, then it goes away.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:28Rich Roll?

  Like you can only maintain it for like the just tiniest finite amount of time.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. Beautifully put. So like I said, my grandpa was a airline pilot. So I like to use this analogy. It's like you're landing a plane. So you see your target, you see your runway and you choose that X amount of weeks in advance. So you want to slowly lower or descend to that target. So if you go, you know, 12 weeks out from a show, just cut out all your food, do as much cardio as possible, you're going to kill yourself. You're going to spin, you're going to burn out, you know? So it's about kind of timing everything to the exact hour of stepping on stage. So you're trying to land this plane. The final week would be the landing gears coming out.

• 57:14Speaker 01

  And then touchdown would be stepping on stage. So the final, basically 24 hours before the show, at that time, what I was doing, I still kind of do it now. You, so you're water loading all week. Then towards the end of the week, you taper off and then you completely stop drinking water the night before. And what happens is that the theory is, and I talked with some doctor about the kind of more of the metabolic process that goes on behind the theory. And he confirmed some of it, that, you know, the more water you drink, your body will release a hormone to dispel more water, to kind of keep things going. And if you do water loading and then you cut it off, then that hormone will still be

• 57:55Speaker 01

  there. So there's like a lag period and you'll just kind of pee out more water than you should. So it's like you're draining yourself completely of water and then

• 58:05Rich Roll?

  The body thinks, well, water's coming because it's been coming.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the gear is still going, right? So the wheel is still turning. And then you reintroduce carbs the day before and the day of the show. So you got, we call carb loading. So guys will pound thousand grams of carbs Friday, a thousand grams of carbs before they step on stage. And what happens is, is it, it basically, the theory is that glycogen attracts water. So it'll, now that you're introducing glycogen to your muscles, it's sucking all the water to your muscles. So it's giving you this really good pump and this fullness, right? So

• 58:41Rich Roll?

  I had no idea about any of this. That's crazy.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's a really crazy concept to put your body through this amount of torture too.

• 58:48Rich Roll?

  To just basically appear a certain way for a short period of time.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  You, you train 10 weeks for 10 seconds on stage. Like, that's how crazy bodybuilding is.

• 58:57Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, but by, in fairness, you know, Usain Bolt trains years for however long it takes him to run 100 meters. It's not that different.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a very good point. It's just a funny concept to me still to this day. It's a funny

• 59:12Rich Roll?

  Well, it is, it is comical when you really think about it.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then on top of that, on top of that, you put yourself through so much effort and you, you end up paying to do these contests. Then you pay somebody who you've never met to judge you on how you look. And there's a certain amount of self-worth that you get whenever people tell you that, hey, you don't look as good as that guy. I'll just tell you right now. So we're going to place you at the end of the line.

• 59:33Rich Roll?

  It's a weird thing. There's a weird, you know, let's, let's face it. There's a bizarre like strain of narcissism.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely.

• 59:43Rich Roll?

  And it is a sport and I respect that. And I'm super interested in, in, in hearing what you have to say about the world. But it's, it's distinct from other sports in a very unique way.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  So you have to be a little extreme to be a bodybuilder. Like in some sense, you have to be extreme as a person's personality. There has to be something there in order for you to go through that. Same as all like elite level athletes. I feel like we have this thing about us that-

• 1:00:10Rich Roll?

  What is that thing? Like, is there a, is there a common like personality or emotional archetype that you see that drives people into this world?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  I think a lot of it is the dream. I think a lot of it is that dream and that allure of being the best bodybuilder in the world, having this like insanely attractive physique. And something happens through that whole process to where that might be the goal initially, but then a lot of people really do fall in love with it. And it becomes their meditation, their therapy to go to the gym and just work on yourself. So I, I respect all bodybuilders in all types and forms. But I feel like we all share that commonality amongst us.

• 1:00:59Rich Roll?

  All right, so let's go back to this first competition. So you're learning all of this as you go, right? First competition, you train for eight or nine weeks or whatever it is. You get up on the board with the board shorts on.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Rich Roll?

  What happens?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we go through the whole process too. So the tanning is the first time I ever got a spray tan in my life. And I was just like-

• 1:01:17Rich Roll?

  Not the last.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely not the last, unfortunately. So I get spray tanned, I go on stage and I do my, my posing routine. And I entered, I think, two divisions at that time. It was like the novice and then the open class. Cause I was like, hey, maybe I might win the novice. Maybe I'll get destroyed in the open. So I entered two physique, or two categories, ended up going on stage twice. So it gave me a little bit more stage time, more experience. And I did my posing routine. I had like my, my girlfriend at the time, a couple of friends in the front row. So it was like a hometown show for me. So they were all cheering me on. So I got like a lot more confident when I was on stage.

• 1:01:53Rich Roll?

  Right. And you got a girl, you just skipped over the fact that you got a girlfriend in Bakersfield.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  I did.

• 1:01:58Rich Roll?

  Okay, I knew that. Go ahead.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so as a show would have it, I ended up winning the novice division.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  And then won the overall for the novice division. And then in the open division, I won my class in the open and then won the overall for the open. So I basically swept the entire show in my divisions. And I walked home that day with like six trophies. It was weird. I had like six trophies, a plaque and this gigantic bodybuilder trophy that was like, no, I think he was like this. Like just both arms raised. And I was like, this is so cool. Like this is all the hard work that I've been working for and this big gold, plastic trophy, you know?

• 1:02:40Rich Roll?

  And, and literally brand new to the sport, first competition ever. Yeah. Like, that's crazy.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  So, so a funny thing happened after that. Obviously I was really happy, but the question that I avoided my entire life was now the most common question that I was getting. And that is, what do you eat? So I was forced to tell them that, you know, I did it all vegan. I did it all plant-based.

• 1:03:05Rich Roll?

  So going into that, nobody knew that was just your thing.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  I didn't announce it.

• 1:03:09Rich Roll?

  No one knew who you were or anything.

• 1:03:10Speaker 01

  No, no. I mean, amongst the gym members, some people may have known who I was, but Bakersfield's a pretty small town. Word gets around really quick there. And, you know, they were really shocked. It had two, two impressions whenever I tell people that I did it without eating the standard typical proto, or the prototypical bodybuilding diet, which is like chicken and rice, egg whites in the morning, wash it down with a protein shake. Then you drink, or you're eating your salmon and asparagus. So all of these things are very heavily animal-based and they're consuming a large amount of it too. So the fact that somebody just won a bodybuilding competition without eating any of that is a little bit like concerning or just like disbelieving to people. So.

• 1:03:53Rich Roll?

  On top of that, it's worth noting that, you know, a common thing that you also hear with people that are, with vegan athletes or vegetarian athletes for that matter is, yeah, that's fine. But he only stopped eating meat like a year ago or two years ago or five years ago. He made all his gains. He got big when he was playing football in college, when he was eating meat all the time. You've never had meat in your whole life.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:16Rich Roll?

  But the vegan thing didn't come in until the lead up to this competition. So you trained for this specific event, totally vegan for the first time.

• 1:04:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So basically 10 weeks before that I went vegan and. I basically made it really challenging for myself. I was like, I'm gonna train for my first bodybuilding show. I'm gonna train as a vegan. I have no idea what to do for both, but I'm gonna figure it out. And so I started telling people, I was like, look, you're not gonna like it, but I did it all vegan. I did it eating like, at that time, I was like, I was relying on like alternative meats. So I'd have like veggie chicken and what else was I having? Just like a lot of lentils, like high carb foods, which was kind of going against the grain too. And people were just kind of like immediately turned off. And they were like, ah, yeah,

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  that's cool, whatever. And then they just like go about their day. But then I found out that I shared it on social media. Like I never once made like an announcement that like, hey, I'm going vegan, like a lot of people do now. I just kind of did it behind the scenes. And then I just kind of came on the scene as like a vegan. And I shared like pictures and I was like, you know, I just won this bodybuilding competition and people say you can't build muscle without meat. And I did it, you know? So I got a lot of like positive feedback from that from people. And a lot of people asking me questions online, not necessarily in real life. Some people were interested in real life. But online, I figured I could probably reach some people that were like me and didn't believe it was possible. So maybe I can inspire somebody. And

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  I started sharing my journey a little bit more. And that's kind of where this whole thing began.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  Right. And we're gonna get into that. But just sort of back in this lead up to this competition, I'm interested in your experience training for the first time vegan. Like when you made that switch, okay, I'm not doing the dairy anymore. What was the experience in the gym? Like, did you, you know, were your gains truncated by that? Did it help your training? Did it hinder it? Like, how did you kind of navigate figuring out how to make it work?

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  So the first thing I noticed whenever I cut out the dairy products was how much better I felt like from a digestion point of view. I didn't experience the bloat, the gas, the discomfort that I felt quite often whenever I would eat dairy products. And I just figured that I was probably lactose intolerant, never got tested for it. I just figured I wasn't really digesting it that well. So that was the reason behind it. So as soon as I cut that out, I realized that I had this like new sense of clarity, a new sense of energy in the gym, and I wasn't like, I wasn't getting as sore anymore. So what happened was is that I could train more frequently because I wasn't as sore. The next day I was like,

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  well, I guess I'm gonna train again. Like my, I feel good. Like I'm just gonna do it. And I immediately noticed that I could train more. And that therefore you train more frequently, you see better results quicker. So it was immediate, the feeling. And I was already eating really clean, mind you. So it was just that next level of cleaning up the diet even more.

• 1:07:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's what you hear all the time. It's not that going plant-based inherently makes you a better athlete. But my experience, and it sounds like your experience and the experience that you hear from so many people who have made this switch, is that it expedites the recovery process. You know, the fact that you weren't sore means the body is repairing itself more expeditiously than what you were accustomed to. So in turn, you can push yourself a little bit harder, you can train a little bit more frequently, you can go a little bit longer, you're less likely to get injured, or have to take a rest day, or to get sick because you overtrained. And when you protract that over the course of a season, or a number

• 1:08:05Rich Roll?

  of months, or even years, you're gonna have serious performance gains as a result.

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  So yeah, basically, when you train for a bodybuilding show, you experience all those things like cumulatively, right? So I noticed the difference. And I feel like, touching on what you talked about earlier, is that people, they don't know they feel a certain way because it's just their normal, right? So I never knew that

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  There was another approach that I could feel sore less, uh, which could allow me to train more, uh, because I just knew that I worked out, I would get sore, it would take me X amount of days to recover. I just figured that's how it was. Uh, and that was as a vegetarian, mind you. So I always feel like everybody has their own sense of like homeostasis and their own normality that they kind of always linger around, right? So imagine all the people that are out there listening and they are consuming this diet that they've been eating their entire life. And it's just normal. It's normal to feel like lethargic after eating a heavy meal. It's normal to feel this way the entire day to have to take a nap or that

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  you get headaches every day or that, you know, you just have this irritable bowel syndrome or, uh, whatever the case is, it's just normal. And then you cut something out and there's like a new sense of normal and you're like, whoa, I feel great. Like this is what it's like? This is what it's like to feel this way? I never knew that was possible. So essentially that's kind of the transition that most people experience when they go plant-based because it's like they're, they're experiencing this new energy, this new sense of, uh, thriving and the performance comes after. Like, you know, you have better mental clarity, you can think better, you're happier, uh, you're more likely to be more productive, you know, go longer in the gym.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's all good, man.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Rich Roll?

  So, uh, after that first competition, are you thinking like, hey, maybe I have a, a career here? Like the universe is, you know, loud and clear. Like, hey, man, you're pretty good at this.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:10:13Rich Roll?

  So what comes next?

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  No, I would never say that I thought I had a career in it at that point. I, I thought, you know what? I won a local show. There wasn't that many people. What did I really win? You know, like there was no, there wasn't like a serious amount of competition there. So that's when I, I looked at other competitions like coming up and I found one in Fresno and I was like, okay, this is a bigger show, bigger city, um, a lot like more established. Competition. So I was like, I'm gonna go for that one. The difference was that it was non-tested. So I knew going into it that I'd be going against guys that were probably taking stuff or...

• 1:10:50Rich Roll?

  So it's a different, it wasn't, it's not, this isn't the Board Shorts organization. This is like a different...

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  No, still Board Shorts, but different federation. So it's like, just different organizers, different set of contest rules, regulations.

• 1:11:08Rich Roll?

  And non-testing just means they're not drug testing.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:10Rich Roll?

  So you know these guys are gonna be jacked up on whatever.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that's not to say everybody, but I knew that that was a very strong possibility that I'd be going up against guys that were probably at a big advantage compared to me. And I entered that show, I don't know how many weeks later it was, but I entered that one and ended up winning the overall there. And at that point, then I was like, okay, there is no limitation to this. There's, I'm not restricted by this diet. I can compete against guys, doesn't matter what their diet or their lifestyle is. I can compete. And that's what really...

• 1:11:43Rich Roll?

  You're still brand new.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, so I...

• 1:11:46Rich Roll?

  There's so much potential out there waiting for you.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think when you win at anything, it makes you a little bit more inspired.

• 1:11:52Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  To work harder and see what else you could do. And that's, that's kinda where I was at when I won that second competition.

• 1:11:58Rich Roll?

  And how does it work? Does somebody come up to you after the competition and go, hey, like, let me take you to the next level? Or you should do this now, or let me guide you, or, you know, how, what are the mechanics of how it unfolds?

• 1:12:10Speaker 01

  No, so they have like different, it's like a qualification series. So if you competed at like a national level show, or sorry, a national qualifier, you have to place in a certain rank to be able to compete at the next level, which is all the winners. So that's the national show. And then, in the national show, if you win a certain rank, normally it's first or second in your class, then you get awarded a pro card. So that's kinda like the progression there. It's almost like going from like the high school to college to...

• 1:12:39Rich Roll?

  Got it.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  The pros. And after I won that second show, I was like, man, I'm qualified. There's a national show next year. I think I can, I think I can compete. So that was, that was my new goal.

• 1:12:52Rich Roll?

  Right. So then what happens there?

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  So I think like maybe a year and a half later... I did a couple of other shows and won some, I got second in some, and I was still qualified for the national show. And then that's when I was like, okay, if, like, what's my goal here? I was like, if I can prove, because it goes in stages, right? First, people say you can't build muscle without meat. Then people say you can't win a bodybuilding show without meat. And I did both of those. Then people say, well, you can't compete against the pros. And then it is like, the bar keeps getting set a little bit further. I'm like, okay, well, I'm this far.

• 1:13:29Rich Roll?

  Well, because the cognitive dissonance is so, is so deep that no matter how many times you continue to defy it, that the goalposts just keep moving, right?

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:13:40Rich Roll?

  They've got to point to some other reason that, that affirms their worldview.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I'm like, to this point, I was so, kind of like, watch me. Just watch me.

• 1:13:52Rich Roll?

  Right. So that was the drive.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  That was the drive.

• 1:13:54Rich Roll?

  That's where it was coming from.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. In a sense.

• 1:13:57Rich Roll?

  And you start sharing this stuff on social media. So now this is becoming like a public thing.

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So then I started like waving this flag and I was like, hey, I'm doing it this way. Like, there's a different approach that I didn't know existed. Like, I found the secret sauce. So those who are interested and want to learn more about it, you know, come follow, because I'll be posting about it a lot more and follow my journey. And that's where the whole social media aspect started kind of snowballing and getting a little bit more well-known within that community. And, you know, it's like I said, a year and a half later, here I am going into my first national show, and it's the biggest show of them all in Las Vegas. And I don't know how many guys there are per class, but essentially each, there's like six or seven height classes. Each one of the height classes is larger

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  than most of the local cumulative amount of people. So there's more people in a height class than there isn't a total competition.

• 1:14:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  At a local level. So.

• 1:14:54Rich Roll?

  And you're in the Speedo now.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  No, no, still in the board shorts.

• 1:14:57Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, same, same division, just different federation. And.

• 1:15:01Rich Roll?

  You're supposed to see the quads.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  They don't, they don't judge on this one. So there's different, there's different levels of bodybuilding. It goes like super heavyweight, then like heavyweight, and then like different weight classes. And then they go like classic physique, which is like, kind of like, there's height and weight limitations. Then they go men's physique, which is the one that I'm in. And it's more like, more the cover model aesthetic, kind of. Not so massive guys. Not like Mr. Olympia. No, there is a, I mean, you can't compete to be Mr. Olympia, but in that division. But not like guys like Phil Heath that are just, just huge, like 250 pounds on stage. Dry. And so there I am going to my first contest and I ended up winning my class. So that meant I was award, I was gonna be awarded my pro card.

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  And I walked off stage at that point and I got like super, just like emotional, like I had reached my goal. I became a professional athlete and it was, it was just like overwhelming. So I stepped off stage and I was just like, wow, I did it. Like I really did it. And I was just thinking in my head, I was like, this is gonna do so much good for everything I represent. Because now people can point to somebody and say, hey, you can be a pro because that guy did it. You know, you can compete against elite level bodybuilders because that guy did it. And that was kind of my, like, one of my reasons for doing it. I love bodybuilding and everything else, but it becomes much easier to immerse yourself in work and sacrifice

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  whenever you're doing it for something beyond yourself. Of course. Because bodybuilding is a very, very vain sport. You have to be, you have to be selfish, you have to be vain. Because the only way you can get to that level is by only focusing on one thing. You know, and that's building up your physique. So the fact that I was doing it, or I had this kind of like team behind me and I was representing them. So I felt like I couldn't let them down now. So I had to work hard, I had to stick to everything. And now that I went pro, I was like, we made it guys. Like it wasn't just me making it, it was everybody making it. And that's kind of where I like, I decided like, yeah, now I'm really gonna be vocal about it. Because now you can't tell me shit. Because now I'm a pro. So what's your excuse now? Like what more do I have to prove? And then now the, the, the argument. I know what's coming.

• 1:17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, now the argument is like, yeah, but you can't make it to Olympia.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  All right, watch me. Just watch me. Just give me some time.

• 1:17:24Rich Roll?

  That's what's next.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  That's what's next.

• 1:17:26Rich Roll?

  And how big is that leap from what you've accomplished to Olympia?

• 1:17:30Speaker 01

  Not much, not much. So they changed up the qualification for Olympia now, but it was previously if you won in overall at an Olympia qualifier, which is normally like a big pro show, then you automatically get to go to Olympia. Like if you won first.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  And you've done that?

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  No, I haven't done that yet. But if you get second, third, or fourth, or fifth, you get a series of points. And at the end of the year, the guys with the most points get invited. So now, since there's so many guys that are competing again, they went into a point system. So you have to compete year round now and place in the top five consistently to get the most points by the end of the year. And they invite the top 30 guys, top 40 guys to Olympia.

• 1:18:09Rich Roll?

  I see. So you're now training for various events and trying to accumulate those points?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, essentially.

• 1:18:16Rich Roll?

  So how far or close are you to that?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  So this year wasn't what I wanted it to be. There was, a couple of things happened between 2017 and 2018. So I moved from Bakersfield to Long Beach, California. Basically, I went through this self awakening and I was like, I can't live here anymore. Like it's, I'm capping out. I'm like limiting. I was in a bad relationship and I need to get out. So I went on a trip to Bali and just had this like, kind of like self aligning moment where I was like, what am I doing? Like I only live once. Why am I wasting my time slaving away for something that's not bringing me any happiness or joy? So I went back home, went to my boss's office at first hand. I was like, look, you need to find another place for me in this company

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  or I need some time off to go interview for other companies elsewhere because I just can't do it anymore. He was like, don't quit. There's a spot for you in Long Beach. So I ended up transferring to Long Beach. Thought that would solve my problems as far as being unhappy with a job because it was a new location. It was closer to LA. All my friends, a lot more to do. I worked there for five months and I was more miserable than ever because now I was garnering a lot more attention on social media and seeing like firsthand the impact that I was making to the people that I was trying to reach. And I remember I went to an event in London and I gave a speech in front of, I don't know how many people, 500 people, something like that. And afterwards,

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  a guy came up to me and said that I helped save his mom's life. And I was like, how's that? And he goes, well, you were the reason that I went vegan and my mom was a type 2 diabetic. She couldn't get out of the bed and she saw how I was surviving and thriving on a vegan diet. So she was willing to try it. And since she went plant-based, she's able to move around. She like cured a lot of her illnesses and I completely think that you helped save her life. And it like brought me to tears and I was like, still gets me like going now. And I was like, what am I doing? Like, why am I wasting nine, 10 hours a day for something that I hate?

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  And technically, you're a professional athlete. Yeah. And like, I didn't tell anybody at work. Like in Bakersfield, people knew. At in Long Beach, I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want them to know. And I was like, so I was like, kind of like going to, this is what happens. So I was like, go to events in like London and give speeches. Right. Was that Devolution? No, that one was London Veg Fest. That was London Veg Fest. So like, here I am going to London, traveling to different countries, giving speeches about something I'm so passionate about. And then coming home, talking about happiness and talking about living your dream. And I come home and living a nightmare. So I went to the office that Monday, it was a 6:30 meeting, and we start talking about the same shit, corroding pipe, compliance, different projects.

• 1:21:10Speaker 01

  And I felt this like, I've never felt this before, like such a state of claustrophobia that everything was like closing in around me and I had to like get up and leave the room. And I knew that as soon as, yeah, panic attack. Yeah. Sort of like hyperventilating. And as soon as the meeting was done, I didn't go back into the meeting. As soon as the meeting was over, I went to my boss's office, closed the door and I was like, I'm putting in my resignation. Like, this is my last two weeks or week or something. And he was like, whoa, like, where is this coming from? So, so he was like,

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  You know, what are you gonna do? And I'll never forget this conversation. Like, he's a pretty level-headed guy. I tried to explain to him that I have like, you know, this passion for spreading awareness about veganism. I'm a bodybuilder. He's like, yeah, I figured you were like, something. And I explained it to him and he goes, he goes, so you're quitting to become a vegan?

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  And I go, I go, I'm already, like, in a sense, yes.

• 1:22:19Rich Roll?

  A professional vegan.

• 1:22:20Speaker 01

  A professional vegan, yeah. To talk about vegan professionally. And, um, yeah, I didn't expect him to understand. And he was like, well, you know, congrats to you. You know, he was really receptive of it. And I'd only been working there a couple of months. And he was like, you got bigger balls than I do. Cause you know, I got like a family to feed and all this stuff. So I can't make that jump. But props to you for following your heart and following your dream. Then like,

• 1:22:43Rich Roll?

  It's good, man. Sent you off with well wishes.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, we have, we had a great relationship and great guy and everything. And I really appreciate that conversation, too.

• 1:22:51Rich Roll?

  But then it's like, all right, well, like now, how am I gonna make this work?

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so, I mean, going back to the London thing, I felt like I was doing a disservice to the community and to so many other things by not fully investing myself into like my purpose that I felt like I had to. And that was the main reason why I quit my job. I, you know, I was like, you know what? I'll figure it out. Yeah, I'm giving up like a really well-paying job, like six figures at 23, you know? So I'll make it work because money's not everything. You know, I have a ton of money in the bank account, or I did whenever I was like working there. I was like, I have a lot of money in the bank account. What happiness has brung me? Nothing. So, but when I'm truly happy, money doesn't matter because it's like,

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  I'm having a sense of fulfillment and I'm helping people and that's what I really

• 1:23:43Rich Roll?

  It's your version of renunciation in the modern world.

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Rich Roll?

  You know, like that, that, that whatever compelled your mom, it's almost like that same trigger came up for you.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  I came full circle.

• 1:23:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:56Speaker 01

  Is what happened. I thought that all these things would bring me happiness, you know, having a title, having a well-paying job, having a condo on the beach, you know, all the material things. I thought it would bring me happiness, but you know, the more you work for it, the more you become a slave to it. And after I kind of renounced it and just kind of sat back and I was like, I immediately had like regret. I was like, what the hell did I just do?

• 1:24:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  Like, I just fucked this up.

• 1:24:23Rich Roll?

  It's gonna happen now.

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, and

• 1:24:26Rich Roll?

  Well, that, and there's that like, projection that perhaps some people have, that they're placing on you, like, oh, well, he's a pro, like, he's getting paid and like, well, like, there's sponsors and there's all this, there's the reality versus the imagined reality that perhaps your social media following might have projected upon you.

• 1:24:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, people have this idea that when you become a professional bodybuilder, the opportunities come raining in and you get paychecks left and right. Like, you don't get paid. Like, you pay

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  You pay them.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  You pay them. Like, I'll put it this way. If you win a bodybuilding show in my division, you might get $2,000 to $3,000 to win first place. How much does it cost you to go to Denver, pay for a hotel room, pay for a flight, pay for all the meals? Like, you break even. Like, even though you might win a small purse, you break even. So, people thinking that they're gonna become super rich from being a pro bodybuilder, it's like, you're going in it for the wrong reasons, I'll tell you right now. You gotta find something else to go in it for, like, maybe self-satisfaction or whatever. But, yeah, I think, I did have some sponsors at that point, and that was kind of what was like sustaining me economically. And I just knew that whatever I did, I was gonna do it.

• 1:25:36Speaker 01

  Fully, 100%. And now I wasn't jumping, like, playing this teeter totter game where I was like half in, half out. And I was just gonna see where it would take me. And that's kinda where I'm at now.

• 1:25:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so now you got, you started the Generation V podcast, and you do like, online coaching programs, right? Is that like, the main source of revenue for you at the moment? Or how are you, how are you making it work?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  So, so it's, I mean, you know, you're like, you're in social media as well. There's many different ways to make money as a social media influencer. You can do it by endorsement deals, you can do it by sponsorships, you can do it by one-off posts, you can do it, there's a million different ways. I had, I had some money in the bank, and I knew I wanted to start something, and something that was my own, be my own boss, cuz I never really sat well with having a boss telling me something to do. So I decided that, you know, I can train people, because I'm a, you know, I know the process and the system on how to make it work. Cuz I'm like, I've trained other people before, but I never had time to train somebody when I was working as an engineer. So now I'm at this crossroads, and I'm like, okay, do I wanna become a personal trainer?

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Like, no, cuz like, you can train maybe nine, 10 people a day, and then you're capped out. And I was like, that doesn't make much sense. So I figured that I wanted, like, my goal has always been big, like, I wanna reach a lot of people and have the biggest impact possible. So as a universe would have it, I got connected with another guy, and he's like, a software engineer. And we put together a system to where we could scale coaching and help a lot of people at once become vegan, or try, you know, go plant-based and reach your fitness goals. And we were trying to come up with a name for it, we didn't like any of the names. And we have all these names on a paper, a piece of paper, and he's like,

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  into web design and SEO, search engine, everything. So he's like, what about, what about this one? I was like, yeah, right, we'll never get that. And it was called veganfitness.com. And I was like, well, that'd be beautiful, but that's gotta be 30, 40K at least. And turns out, he did a little search and showed who owns it, and it was one of our good friends.

• 1:27:44Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  That owned the domain name.

• 1:27:46Rich Roll?

  And wasn't doing anything with it?

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  He was just sitting on it, yeah, just redirecting it to something else. And he, we told him what we wanted to do. He's also very philanthropic, and all about the movement, progressing the movement, had big plans for it, and just gave it to us at a very, the homey discount. And

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  That's amazing.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  And we ended up with veganfitness.com. And so now we're doing online coaching. We have really big plans for it as well. We have, we want it to be basically nutritionfacts.org meets bodybuilding.com. And we want to reach the younger demographic because that's the generation that's going to make the biggest impact moving forward. And if we can convince young guys especially, that being vegan is cool, you know, you can build muscle, you can get the girls, you can look a certain way, you can perform as an athlete even better, then we've really tapped into the change, right? So it's about making vegan cool and approachable. And doctors do such a good job of breaking down the science and the evidence behind it.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  But let's face it, a 20-year-old doesn't give a shit about heart disease. Like dude, I'm 20, I'm invincible. I could jump off this building and punch you in the face and like, nothing's going to happen to me, right? So we want to appeal to that generation and say, hey, you know, yeah, you get all these extra long-term benefits, but right now you can be a better athlete, you can look better, perform better. And yeah, we're just, we're trying to tap into that demographic and make it cool.

• 1:29:13Rich Roll?

  That's the keys to the kingdom. And what is your sense of like where we're at right now in terms of influencing that demographic?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  We're getting close. We're getting close. I think with enough, particularly athletes, I feel like they have a lot more influence than other people. Doesn't matter if a doctor's saying it to you, you know, you eat this way, you become healthier. But if Kobe Bryant walks up to you, he's like, you know, you're a basketball player, you love him, you want to be the next Kobe Bryant. He's like, hey, you know, if you do this, you could, you could be me. That dude is going to change that day, right? So we kind of have that mentality, that approach to convincing the younger generation to give it a try. Not, not to go fully plant-based, just give it a try. You know, I'll convince you to try it. The diet will convince you to stick with it. Give it two weeks, give it three weeks, you know?

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Learn from the experts, learn the reasons, how to do it, or learn the process, how to do it, and then the rest will just work itself out.

• 1:30:11Rich Roll?

  Well, like I said at the outset, I mean, you're the perfect, you're the perfect person to be doing this, you know? You have the physique, you have the understanding, you have the accolades, you're a handsome dude, you're jacked, you know, you're photogenic, like you've got, you have all the qualities to be able to penetrate. That sector of the population and really shift culture in a huge way. Like, I think it's exciting.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  It's really exciting, and that's kind of where it's a big responsibility to help to kind of be that link or that bridge between mainstream and subculture. But I'm willing to give it a try and to take it on. And, you know, it's like you mentioned, muscle and fitness.

• 1:30:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, how did that, how did that cover come together for you?

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  Man, I don't even know. I don't even know. Like, I had shot for Muscle and Fitness before, after I became pro. And I was like, fuck, yeah, like, I'm gonna be in Muscle and Fitness. Like, it was right after I went pro, like, the week after. And I did this, like, eight-hour shoot and with one of the best fitness photographers in the game. And it was like an agency that contacted me to do the shoot. And they're like, yeah, we like your look. Would you be interested? And I was like, hell, yeah, I will be. So I did the shoot. Like, three months, four months later, the issue comes out. And I'm like, dude, I'm gonna be in it. Like, there's gonna be pictures of me in Muscle and Fitness. And, you know, maybe they'll talk about me being vegan or something. I opened up the article. Not even my name was mentioned. Like, they didn't even give me credit for the, for my name. And I was like, damn.

• 1:31:40Rich Roll?

  They just used you for some other...

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  I was just like a stock photo. Like, it was like a whole program. Like, it was like, it was like a seven-page spread. So it was like all over this, this edition. And not even, like, one mention of my name, at least. They gave the, they gave the hairdresser credit, but they didn't give me credit. And I was like, happy, but like, I had people messaging me, like, hey, they don't mention your name or anything. And I was like, well, it's me. You know, you can see me. It's me. And so that happened in 2016. And then ironically, somebody contacted me from Muscle and Fitness again. And we're like, hey, we know you did a shoot with this guy in 2016. Wondering if you'd be interested in doing another shoot? Like, as a model for a program that was, you know, they designed.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, of course. I'd love to. I was like talking with the editor and I was like, you know, I would also like to talk about this thing that I have going on here. And you know, I'm like one of the only, I'm the only male IFBB professional bodybuilder in my division. And I'm kind of helping carry the torch to show people what's possible without eating meat. I'd love to talk about that. And he was like, ah, yeah, let me, let me see what my like editor in chief says. Turns out the editor in chief or somebody up there was vegan. And they were like, run it.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  Really? At Muscle and Fitness?

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. They were like, run it. So the guy calls me and we do like a pretty long interview over the phone. Didn't think anything of it. I thought it was going to be like a little sub article or something. And then the day comes with a photo shoot and again, we shoot for like nine, 10 hours. It's grueling to do one of those photo shoots. I don't know how many you've done, but.

• 1:33:19Rich Roll?

  Not like that.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Oh, man, it's.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  Not, I've done, I've done, let me count, zero bodybuilding shoots.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you this, it's exhausting.

• 1:33:29Rich Roll?

  But here's one thing, I will, I will tell a funny story. Like I have, I have shot with photographers that have shot bodybuilders, like that have shot for Muscle and Fitness. And I've said, so, so tell me how that works, you know, and they go through the whole thing like here. You gotta like, you know, flex your stomach and like exhale all your air. And then like, you know, there's a whole thing to like, make you look super epic, right?

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we spent, we spent an hour at least setting up lighting, right? He's like, stand there.

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  Shadows.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Stand there. And then he's like, you know, hold the weight. He's like, stop when you get down and really show me some effort. Cool. Takes like 10 photos. You do it again. He looks at the, he looks at the screen. He's like, nah, gotta do it again. Your hair's, your hair's off. So you do it again, do it again, do it again, do it again. Next thing you know, 50 pounds feels like 300 pounds. And you're like. And on top of that, you have to keep like a, you know, somewhat of a decent face and contract muscles and be very conscious of everything that's going on.

• 1:34:29Rich Roll?

  Make sure that every muscle you have is flexing.

• 1:34:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So do that for eight hours for 10 different exercises or 15 different exercises. And at the shoot, he was like, oh, we're gonna do a cover try. And I was like, what's that? And he's like, oh, we're gonna try and shoot. Like, maybe they'll take it for a cover. I was like, yeah, okay, well, we'll go ahead and do it. So we shot for the cover. And that was that. That was that. It was like a week before I did the Armored Classic in March. And I was really happy with the photo shoot because I was seeing the pictures and I was like, oh, this is awesome. It looks great. And that was the last thing I heard. And he was like, yeah, the edition will probably come out like, you know, a couple of months later. And, you know, as luck would have it, I was just sitting on the couch one morning and a friend of mine, another pro bodybuilder, sends me

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  a DM. And it's a, it's the cover of Muscle and Fitness. It's me on the cover. And I'm like, where did you get this? And he's like, dude, I just got an email from them talking about how Muscle and Fitness is merging with another magazine company and you were on the cover. And I was like, again, that sense of like, holy crap, like, what just happened? I got no notification whatsoever. They didn't tell me.

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  They never even told you.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Never even told me. And after that, I was just like completely awestruck and didn't believe it was real. Like, it's still surreal to me. To, and, and on the front page, it says, uh, something about Nimai Delgado, vegan bodybuilding tips, or something like that. So he even mentioned veganism on the cover.

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  On the cover of Muscle and Fitness. That's a paradigm shift. That's like a cultural moment.

• 1:36:01Speaker 01

  It's huge, man. And like, I don't know, I didn't do the research and go back to all their covers and, and everything. And I don't know if there's been a vegan athlete on it before, but just for them to even mention the fact that, you know, the word vegan on the cover is, is a huge win for the entire vegan movement. And then I get, I finally get my hands on a copy. I open it up. It's a 10-page spread. First page says meatless muscle and it's got like a cow with like an X through it. It talks about my whole story and how I've never eaten meat and how you don't need meat to build muscle and I'm a pro bodybuilder and just goes through my whole story, what we just talked about and it was just such a, yeah, such a, like a fork in the road, like a shift. Like, man, if Muscle and Fitness is catching on, this is huge.

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  Did it change things for you or what was the reaction to that article?

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  So the reaction was really positive online. I asked all my, my followers to like, go buy a copy first because I understand how capitalism works. You know, if that copy sells more than the rest of the copies, chances are they'll feature another vegan on the cover in the future. Or if we request more information on vegan athletes, then they'll feature them because there's a demand for it. So I convinced all my followers, say, go buy a copy, take a picture with it, tag me, tag Muscle and Fitness, let them know that we as a movement support each other and we want it. And it was, it was overwhelming how many photos, DMs, everything I got from that.

• 1:37:27Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  And, and since then, they translated it into different languages as well. So it's been, it's like, I think right now, it's in Germany as the cover.

• 1:37:38Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:37:39Speaker 01

  It's in France, it's in Turkey, it's in Japan, all these different countries. And it's the same article just translated. So like, the whole world got exposure to the possibilities of a vegan diet.

• 1:37:50Rich Roll?

  That's amazing, man. Super cool. Well, let's, uh, let's bust a few myths here. Like, I'm interested in how your nutrition has evolved and how it stands in contrast to kind of conventional wisdom about what a bodybuilder should eat, right? And kind of where you started and how it's morphed over time into whatever it is now.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the nutrition program that I originally started on was really reliant on kind of processed, alternative meats.

• 1:38:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're talking about the fake meats.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, alternative meats. And over the last like year, maybe year and a half, I kind of started, you know, eliminating those and introducing more whole foods, more less processed, high protein foods like tofu and tempeh, edamame. Some, I don't, I don't do satan just because I, I don't know, it gives me heartburn. And then plant-based protein shakes, a lot of beans, a lot of lentils.

• 1:38:49Rich Roll?

  Is there a specific type that you like?

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  For what?

• 1:38:53Rich Roll?

  For the protein powders.

• 1:38:55Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I'm sponsored by a brand right now and I, I like it and yeah, there, there's many out there. Like, I don't want this to be a plug, but like, there's just many other plant-based alternatives out there for, I mean, that you can substitute easily and has just as much protein, probably got a little bit better digestibility from like a comfort level. So, a lot of people deal with that same discomfort that I had when they, they drank whey protein shakes and a lot of people don't experience that when they go to a plant-based shake.

• 1:39:26Rich Roll?

  Right. And what is the relationship to protein in general and how has that kind of evolved for you? Like, what is, what's the conventional wisdom? Where did you start with it? Where are you at with it now? Like, really specifically? Cause this is, I mean, it's like, it's the protein question, right? Like, we gotta answer this question.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I, I'd be glad to. So, originally, I was one of the sheeple, thinking that, you know, you had to consume more protein and that would equate to more muscle, more gains. Then, I realized that, you know, everything I read, from like, a clinical study point of view, not necessarily bodybuilding.com, nothing against them, they have a lot of great information, read from like, a lot of other influencers or bodybuilders, they go with like, the more is better approach. So, you know, two grams, two to three grams sometime.

• 1:40:15Rich Roll?

  For every pound of weight.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  For every pound of, of weight. So, if I was 180 pounds, I would need 360 grams of protein, you know, at least. So, that's a lot. For a vegan, that's a, that's a lot a lot. Because, you know, to get that much protein through plants, you gotta eat a lot of volume. So, I started looking at it and just like, it didn't make sense to me. I was like, everything I read said like, there was like, an optimal point and anything above that didn't really work to your benefit. You know, you might have extra calories, but your body kinda just like, urinates the extra nitrogen and you can't really use it. Like, there's a limiting factor there. So I go by lean body mass. So just because somebody's 200 pounds doesn't need to,

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  you don't need to consider them 200 pounds of muscle. You know, we have body fat. So you don't need to feed the body fat. You need to feed the muscle. So I always go by, I calculate my lean body mass, which is your total mass minus your body fat percentage. So if I weighed 200 pounds and I was 10% body fat, then I would, my lean body mass would be 180, 180 grams.

• 1:41:21Rich Roll?

  Got it.

• 1:41:21Speaker 01

  So then there's even another fraction that is like 0.8 to 0.9 times that. And that's the number that I go by.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  Right. Which is, that's really the USDA recommendation, right? Or it's like 0.7 grams per kilogram, I think, is what they recommend.

• 1:41:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not sure exactly what it translates to in kilograms. I always go by pounds.

• 1:41:43Rich Roll?

  Right. Me too.

• 1:41:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Unfortunately, we're American. And I get this question asked so much online. And I give them the answer in pounds and they're like, well, okay, I guess I'll go convert it. But.

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  But, all right. So.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  I'll just put it like, flat out, like, I weigh 180 pounds right now. I keep my protein at like 150 grams.

• 1:42:01Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Whether I'm bulking, shredding, 150.

• 1:42:04Rich Roll?

  Still a lot.

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah, maybe 160, like somewhere around there.

• 1:42:09Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  So that's.

• 1:42:10Rich Roll?

  But a typical bodybuilder is taking in about twice that.

• 1:42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, more than twice that. Because I go by lean body mass. So a lot of people calculate it by just total mass.

• 1:42:20Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And how did you arrive at that? And why have you decided that that's what's optimal for you?

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Uh, so there's, there's a clinical study out there that references, I don't know the reference, the exact reference, but there's quite a few out there that show that, you know, after a certain point, it doesn't benefit you anymore. So I figured, why not like, find out where that, like, I'll use that as a reference and just kind of find out what works best for me. So, like I said, I do like a lot of data analysis, tracking and optimization. So there's like certain body scans you can do to track like how much your total mass is and how much of that is muscle mass. So when you're in a deficit, like a caloric deficit, trying to lead up to a show, means you have to eat less than what your maintenance calories are. So you're going to lose weight. So you want to do that as optimal as possible because you don't want to sacrifice the hard earned muscle that you just spent the offseason trying to gain. So it doesn't make sense to build up two pounds of muscle just to lose two pounds

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  of muscle before a show. So there's a balance point there that you have to hover around. And like different scans, like DEXA scans will tell you how much muscle mass you have. In-body scans measures like resistance, muscle impedance or impedance and will translate that to how much muscle mass you have on your body, what your bone density is. So I track that. And basically, if I'm losing more muscle than what I want, as I'm cutting down for a show, I'll kind of like increase my protein a little bit because that's not the goal. Like I want to maintain that muscle and like hold on to it and lose the body fat. So I just kind of use that as kind of like nutrition is different for everybody. I can tell you exactly my number, somebody out there can go follow it.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  They won't see the same results because everybody responds differently. So that's kind of where I just use, you know, trial and error.

• 1:44:04Rich Roll?

  Right, gotcha. And what is the relationship between sourcing your protein from whole foods versus supplements?

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  Supplements are always going to be a little bit more processed. So different doctors out there, T. Colin Campbell for one of them, will tell you that, you know, when it's more processed and isolated, in its isolated form, your body doesn't necessarily absorb it as efficiently. So it's always better to get the whole food source because it contains other chemicals that will help your body absorb that vitamin or mineral or whatever. So that's kind of where it led me to, maybe I'll just go more whole food, plant-based and see if I see a difference. And it's the same. So I just kind of shifted all my like, like more alternative meat style of nutrition to more whole food, plant-based.

• 1:44:52Speaker 01

  So that just means that I have to eat more carbs, more beans, more lentils, all the stuff that I love eating, a little bit more tofu and tempeh, which I love as well. And I see the same results.

• 1:45:04Rich Roll?

  Right. And you're in a sport that is terrified of carbs.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:09Rich Roll?

  So what's the relationship to carbs? And how do you, you know, think about the low carb, no carb craze? And you know, how, there's a lot of talk about ketogenic diets and all different kinds of new ways of avoiding carbohydrates in your diet as a means of optimizing performance?

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just from like a basic nutrition point of view, like carbs are our energy source, right? So it doesn't really make sense to cut those all out. There are times when you can manipulate carbs to your advantage, but you don't have to, like you don't have to cut out carbs, like very much so, people in the fitness industry are carbaphobic. So they refuse, like anything that says carbs in it, they're like, no, I can't touch it. And anything has protein in it, they're like, ah, give me more. So my approach is like, first, like optimize how much protein you need, right? Figure that out first. Most people don't even have any clue. They say you're vegan, but what about, like, where do you get your protein? How do you get enough protein? And I ask them, like, how much do I need? And they're like-

• 1:46:12Rich Roll?

  And how do you find out how much you need?

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  Protein?

• 1:46:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How would you optimize that for yourself? Like, if someone's listening to this, they're fit, they go to the gym, whatever, like, how would they figure that out?

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just kind of explained it. So like, the, figure out your total mass, figure out your body fat percentage, or an estimated body fat percentage, calculate your lean body mass, and then get about 0.8 to 0.9 times that. So if you weigh, you know, if you have 100 pounds of lean body mass, get about 80 to 90 grams of protein. And just kind of use that as like a reference. Like, it's not the, it's not the perfect solution, but use it as a reference.

• 1:46:46Rich Roll?

  Just play around, like, within that scale and see what works best for you.

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And then, the next thing you can do is calculate your fat percentage. So normally, I get about, I don't know, maybe 20, 25% of calories from fat. And then the rest, I just leave to carbs. So that leaves me with like 50 to 60% of my diet comes from carbs.

• 1:47:04Rich Roll?

  And when you say car, I mean, carbs can be anything, right? Carbs can be Coca-Cola and potato chips, right? So when you say carbs, you're talking about what specifically?

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  I'm talking about like whole food carbs, not highly processed, sugary white bread, or, like, I stay away from all that. I don't even include oil into my diet. Eat a pretty clean diet. A lot of potatoes, a lot of beans, lentils, legumes, rice, oatmeal, cereals, granola. All those things contain carbs. I eat a lot, a lot of green veggies, like a lot. Like you can only see my fridge. I go through like a 10 ounce bag of shredded cabbage. Like I eat like three or four of those a day, just because like I use that as like a foundation for like my big Buddha bowls that I make. So I eat quite a bit of like green veggies too. So you're getting a lot of micronutrients, which help your body recover quicker. Right?

• 1:47:58Speaker 01

  So the carbs that you're consuming are whole food plan based and they contain other additional properties that help you perform better. Right. And what about supplements other than protein? So my supplement protocol is pretty straightforward. I'm a skeptic when it comes to a lot of supplements. I don't believe that people, people put too much trust in marketing and not enough investigation in the evidence. Well, it's a multi-billion dollar industry that, that is completely unregulated. Yeah. And preys on people's fears and lack of understanding and knowledge. I think that's kind of how we came to this point, right? Of like the protein myth

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  and the carbophobia and all these things. So it's like the more they can push something to, for you to consume or to buy, then the better it is for them. But they're not necessarily looking out for your, your health. They're looking out for their pockets. So I'm a big skeptic when it comes to anything. I'll just like, you tell me something, I'll take it at face value. Then I'll go take a look and see what I can find for myself. Like trust but verify essentially. And that was like a huge engineering thing that everybody used to say, trust but verify. Like measure twice and cut once. Right? That kind of thing. So same thing goes with supplements. There are certain supplements out there that work, some that are complete phony bullshit. You're just buying expensive urine, as Dr. Khan would say, you know, you ingest all the supplements and all you're doing is pissing it out. And

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  so I take protein. I'll take BCA's. I'll take vitamin D3. BCA's in addition to protein? Yeah. And what are those, what are those doing for you? So basically BCA's for those that are listening are like essential amino acids. So some of them we get from our diet. Some of them we have to consume through food. And if you take BCA's during your workout, you can prevent, like if you completely deplete yourself from your energy source. So normally that happens like, I don't know, it depends on your intensity, but. If you run out of fuel, you'll start pulling energy from elsewhere. So most of the time it comes from muscle. So if you have BCA's in your system when you work out or when you do something that requires a lot of endurance, then it can prevent that a little bit.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  So that's why I take BCA's, not necessarily because I'm trying to build muscle, I'm just trying to maintain what I already have with that. Then I'll take D3, which I think everybody should take D3. If you go get a blood test, you're probably a little bit deficient in D3. Yeah, a lot of people, probably the majority of people are vitamin D deficient. Yeah, same thing with B12. So I take B12 as well, which we can't really get in a lot, large quantity from plant foods. And I take DHA and EPA. So that's more of your long, long chain fatty acids. Right, and are those from like an algae source? Yeah, yeah, they're derived from algae. So those are like my four or five main things. I take creatine like every now and then. Creatine's another like synthesized supplement, doesn't come from animals. It's very easily available, it's cheap.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  And the science backs up its claims. And we don't expect to be Mr. Olympia by taking creatine. But it does work. So it'll help with performance, help with endurance, strength, explosiveness, that type of thing. So I'll take occasionally creatine, but. Yeah, is there a harm to taking that long term? Honestly, I don't know. I think everything in moderation. That's like the key when you do anything. It's like, you don't want to rely on anything. It's like even like, I'll go, I'll go like a week or so without taking any protein shakes. I'll take a look at my diet and see what I can include that I haven't been eating, that I've been getting from like a multivitamin, you know? So it's like, it's about balance. Right, are you doing, do you do regular blood work? Yeah, yeah, I do, I do. So I think that's another thing that most people don't do.

• 1:51:37Speaker 01

  They, they say that, you know, they feel crappy and they blame it on all these other factors, but they don't necessarily know why they're feeling crappy. And getting blood work is one of the most Right. easy ways to identify what's wrong, what's going on, right? Yeah.

• 1:51:50Rich Roll?

  So we referenced earlier that the more successful you get and every kind of hurdle that you overcome, you know, in your mind makes you, makes you more bulletproof to, you know, the, the voice of dissent, but also there's going to be the people who are like, yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but, right? So I can't let you go without asking about the steroids because you're in a culture in which that is, that's, look, it's ubiquitous, right? So I'm sure there are people out there like, well, he's not eating animal products, but he's, but he's doing steroids, right? So where do you come down on all of this?

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's a lot of people say that. There's videos out it. There's like, I mean, you name it, there's articles, there's like, it's the internet, right? Remember that. So just remember that everything on the internet isn't true, right? You don't know who wrote it. So it's, it's a sad truth that society has set the bar so low about what's possible and what's not. So I get accused of it daily. You know, I even, I think I blocked the word on my Instagram because it was just like every other comment was that. And I was like, I'm sick of hearing it, you know? I'm not here to defend myself to anybody. I'm here to talk about the benefits of this diet. You know what I mean? Like, if you don't believe me, it's not my job to convince you, then like, I'll just keep

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  on living my life and talking about what I want to talk about. But the, the issue there is that people have set the bar so low about what's possible and what's not possible naturally. And they think that they are doing like justice by accusing somebody of taking steroids. And don't get me wrong, a lot of guys do. A lot of guys that are listening probably don't know that a lot of guys they know are doing steroids because just because you do steroids doesn't mean that you're gonna blow up. Like, it's always about the hard work. It's always about the diet. It's always about sacrifice and effort, right? Supplementation, all this other crap, it, it accounts for this much. If you don't have this huge pyramid, you can't get, like, this is the amount that supplements accounts

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  for. So that bar has been set so low and people are so easily

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  accusing other people of doing it, that it perpetuates that thought. And the person below that reading saying like, oh yeah, you only got this way because of steroids. Like now that person thinks that that is the only way that you can get that way. But they've never tried it. They don't know their limitations. Like, how could you possibly know your limitations if you've never pushed yourself to your limitations? And know how far that bar really is. And I'm the type of guy that like, I pride myself on work. I pride myself on work ethic. I pride myself on optimizing things. It's like, I'm very analytical, data driven. So I find out what works and I apply it. And there's so much room for growth when you optimize your nutrition and you optimize your,

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  your exercise, like your exercise programs. So many people don't do that. They think that they're going to take a magic pill, take a magic juice or whatever. And they can get there without doing all the hard work that comes with it. So my answer is like, it's really easy to judge somebody based off of a photo or one picture. You don't know me. You know, you don't know where I come from. You could look at me and never, ever assume that I'm a white Argentinean Hindu. Right? Like, you don't know my story. So how could somebody possibly know someone from one photo or one video? When 99% of the time, that person doesn't even know who they are. Right? So it's like, I've accepted it. Like, I've just come to terms with it. It's an argument I'll never win. Doesn't matter what I do.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  I'll never convince anybody. But it's just a sad reality that these people think it's impossible, but they've already exposed the limitations of their own mindset. Because they don't believe it's possible for them. So it definitely can't be possible for anybody else.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  Well, it's certainly more comfortable to dismiss someone like yourself.

• 1:55:52Rich Roll?

  As a cheater, because then it makes it easier to you, for you to feel okay about not putting yourself out there. You know what I mean? Like, and that's unfortunately a human quality.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 1:56:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you know, I, I think it's, it's a weird thing because you are in a sport where like, it's rife with that. And you see these guys that, that have these physiques that you just know it's just, it's, it's perhaps not physically possible for them to look that way without some kind of enhancement. I see pictures of you and you look unbelievable, but it's not like otherworldly. Like, it looks like it's within the realm of, of possibility. You know what I mean? Like, it's different from some of those other guys. So, you know, I, I, I believe you. I take you at face value with that. And I trust that you're, you're telling me the truth. And I appreciate your willingness to talk about it because it's got to be a sensitive thing for you, especially when you make this decision to put yourself

• 1:56:48Rich Roll?

  out on social media and you have this cause that you believe in and you're trying to kind of expand people's consciousness and awareness. And then, you know, you have to be on the receiving end of that. But I guess that's, look, it just goes with the territory.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:57:00Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, you're part of this world, and that's just part of it as well.

• 1:57:05Speaker 01

  It's understandable, too. Like, I don't get mad. I used to get mad because I was like, hey, come on, like, I did it the right way. Like, you're trying to detract or slander my name or say that it's like I'm a cheater or whatever else. And like, nothing against guys who do it. I know so many guys who do it and they're great people. And it's just like me and my personal values is, is like, I don't want to sacrifice my long-term health for short-term goals, short-term benefits. Like, that's logically one of the reasons why I'm vegan, you know, because I'm looking ahead to the future. Like, I want to live a long, healthy life, and spend time with my grandchildren, have like, be able to be active when I'm that age and not be relying on all kind of prescriptions and everything. So.

• 1:57:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Who's that guy? The bodybuilder, YouTuber guy that didn't just pass away? Rich Piana? Piana? Like, I don't know much about that story, but. Did he die of a heart attack or something like that? Or heart fail? Was it drugs or was it? I don't know.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  I don't know. I met him a couple of times and he was actually like a really cool guy. Like nothing against anything, his personal choices or his personal choices. I don't know exactly what happened there, but you can't help but wonder if that played a part, you know, to it. So like I said, if there's any guys out there that are considering do it, just know that there's so much more room for you to optimize in different avenues, like in approaches you haven't tried yet. So just don't go resort to that, you know, because you worked out for a week and you didn't see any results. Like dude, I've been working out for like 10 years, you know? And you only see, you only have met me in my path in life at this moment, but you didn't see me like way back when, when I was just like you, you know? It takes time, but anything that's like worth it takes time.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  And if you're passionate about it, you can sustain it, you know, you can get there. Just take, it's how bad do you want it? Most people want it, but they don't want to give up drinking, you know? They, they say, oh, I work out. I go to the gym, I eat, right? But then you take a diet of like a deeper look and they're out partying every weekend. You know, they, they're not willing to put in the work, so.

• 1:59:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:10Rich Roll?

  How are your parents doing with all this? Like where are they? They're not part, they're not on the commune anymore, right?

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  No, they don't live, actually they're going back. So, so they, they live in New Orleans, right across the street from the temple in New Orleans.

• 1:59:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  And they actually bought land back in Mississippi.

• 1:59:29Rich Roll?

  So they're going back?

• 1:59:30Speaker 01

  They're going back.

• 1:59:30Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, they went, they went full circle too, because then they like left it. Now they're like getting older, they want to go back and just live like a peaceful life, minimalistic and just, yeah.

• 1:59:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And what do they think of this, this whole world that you're in?

• 1:59:47Speaker 01

  They all, they're like my number one fan. You know, they don't understand it as I don't expect them to. I try to keep my mom in the loop as much as possible and she's all like, oh, it's so great. Honey, like you're doing so many amazing things and I love her for it. Like she doesn't have to know, like I just need her support and that's the only thing I need.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  But they, they embrace it and they're very proud of who I am. And especially now the fact that I'm like being more vocal about my background, because that's something that they really wanted to instill in me. So now the fact that I'm talking about it more openly on the show like this, they're just gonna eat it up.

• 2:00:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool how you've taken what you intuited, like what you learned as a young person, you know, as part of that community and, and made it your own in a different way. And, and now you're translating it or sort of conveying the ethos, like the spirit of all of those values are being channeled in a modern way that can connect with a young audience. It's not couched in Hinduism or Himza or any of these things. It's couched in things that are relatable to, you know, an 18 year old kid who just wants to, you know, go to the gym and get stronger and didn't realize when he clicked on your video or looked at your Instagram

• 2:01:03Rich Roll?

  that he's also gonna get blasted with this spiritual message. You know what I mean? But you do it in a very graceful, like roundabout way where it doesn't, it doesn't feel like that, that's what's happening. But you're kind of elevating awareness while you're providing these people with what they think they want on a surface level, if that makes sense.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  You are 100% right. Like I'm very, I guess mindful of how I talk about certain things, especially when it comes to spirituality. Comes to any ethical conversation, anything about politics. I mean, they're all very touchy subjects for people. So I wanted to appeal to the younger generation and to develop a new sense of consciousness, because I feel like Certain things come in different phases, right? If you develop the consciousness first, like I had, then it's very easy to follow this lifestyle. But if you come into it for another reason, maybe the more vanity perspective, then eventually those thoughts kind of come over time.

• 2:02:08Rich Roll?

  What do you mean?

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Like, we're all-

• 2:02:10Rich Roll?

  Like, why am I doing this?

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Well, we're all connected with our actions and our thoughts, right? One directly affects the other. So initially, people might think that, hey, I need meat. I need it to look good. That's just the way it is, right? I need to- I don't like killing animals and stuff like that, but it's just the way it is. So then I keep living that life. But if you come into it and just say, hey, I'll just change my actions. I will just stop eating meat just to look good. Then the thoughts start to develop because they're directly related to each other and say, maybe I didn't need it. And wait a minute, why is it this way? And they develop a new sense of consciousness. And then like the- I've got funny stories.

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Like, some of these guys that you would never, ever, ever, in a million years, considered them to be, like, ever tried going vegan. Some of those guys are like posting like animal rights videos and stuff nowadays. So it's like-

• 2:03:06Rich Roll?

  Like guys back in- From the gym in Bakersfield?

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, a couple of them. A couple of them, yeah. So it's like, wow, like, I never pushed that on anybody, you know? I just pushed the health message, just because I feel like that's the foot in the door. That's most like a common denominator across the board, that people want to look better and feel better. This is your way. Like, this is an approach, you know? Maybe becoming trendy now, it's been around for a while, but it may become more mainstream now, but it's been around for a long time. So if you try it, you know, maybe the consciousness will develop over time. And I'm not saying that people aren't conscious. I'm just saying they don't know what they don't know.

• 2:03:40Rich Roll?

  What do you think is the biggest myth or misunderstanding about you and about bodybuilding in general, based upon what you've learned?

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I can, I can be a pretty misunderstood person. Yeah. From like- What do people not get? I think we get a lot. You could correct, correct the record now. Well, we talked about the steroid thing, but if there's other things. I mean, like, I still expect that after this episode. And I mean, as I've done- Yeah. Many interviews and stuff and like, I'll expect it till the day I stop doing this. But, um, I don't know. I mean, it goes by anything, just maybe just don't judge a book by its cover. You know, like I may come across as a person that's vain or post shirtless photos and whatever, whatever, but it's all a strategy to get you to read a caption to maybe change your life to help you, you know? So it's like, if, you know, there's so many people out there that are willing to judge

• 2:04:34Speaker 01

  other people and it's just like, I come from a big place of judgment. So it's really easy for me to look past it and deflect it and just kind of understand that that's how people are. They- Oh, meaning like you have a lifetime of- Yeah. Being judged. Yeah. So this is nothing new. Yeah. Yeah. So it's almost like I was groomed for this, you know, to be like, stand strong in my beliefs and everything and be a beacon of light for people and just be willing to take the, the shots, you know? But it's about understanding people as well and just understanding that people judge something they don't know. Same way that I was judged when I was a little kid. Yeah. And the way I was raised. And it's okay. You know, you just have to approach them and help them understand. So that's what I'm trying to do.

• 2:05:16Speaker 01

  I'm not trying to convince anybody to go vegan, like, because I want them to go vegan or anything like that. It's like, I'm just trying to help you. Like, I just want you to feel as good as I feel. You know? And if, you know, if you put all this stuff aside, this ego and these like paradigms, then maybe you can experience a different version of life that you never anticipated. So it's just where I'm at. Yeah. Beautifully said, man. I think that's a good place to-

• 2:05:45Rich Roll?

  Wrap it up. How much are you, uh, how much are you training right now?

• 2:05:50Speaker 01

  Uh, I train daily. Like I said, that's my meditation.

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  But I heard you say somewhere like, oh, it's 45 minutes in the gym, right? Like I have this vision, like I used to live on Marine Street around the corner from Gold's Gym and I would go to Gold's Gym and then, you know, over, I've lived in Los Angeles like 20 years and every blue moon I'll pop in over there and it's like

• 2:06:12Speaker 01

  The same guys.

• 2:06:12Rich Roll?

  From nine to five, it is the same people. They've been going there for 30 years and they look the same and they're literally, it's like they check in, in the morning and they're, they're, they're there like all day long. You know, the same like sort of aging bodybuilder crew.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:27Rich Roll?

  Um, female bodybuilders and the like. I always say it's like a mix between like a prison yard and a porn set.

• 2:06:34Speaker 01

  Gold's Gym and Venice.

• 2:06:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's weird, man, you know? But then when I heard you say like, look, if you can't get it done in 45 minutes, like you're not focused.

• 2:06:43Speaker 01

  Essentially is what it is. Like even when I was working as an engineer, people thought I was a professional bodybuilder full time. They had no idea, you know? Like I, I talk about that for that reason is that like, yeah, but it's easy because you have all the time in the world to spend three hours in the gym. I don't have that because I have a job and all this stuff. And I was like, wait, wait a minute, like, I was an engineer for, you know, five years and I lived that same lifestyle. And all you need is an hour a day, you know? Like that is about like, it's not like, like endurance training, I guess, like where you have to go like,

• 2:07:18Rich Roll?

  You gotta be, yeah, it's like so much time.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  You know what I'm saying? Like there's a certain limit there where you can't break down anymore. You just, you become useless at that point. So there's no point in working out two hours when, you know, an hour and a half of it, you're on your phone bullshitting, talking to people and just kind of spinning your wheels. Like that's the reason why you're not seeing results, bro. Like, cause you talk all day. You know, if you go in there with 45 minutes to an hour and really put in the work, you will walk out of there, like crawl out of there. Like, that's why, like, spend a day with like your gym buddy and then spend a day with me or spend a day with another professional bodybuilder and you'll understand why they look that way. You know, people think that just by being in the gym, you're going to get results.

• 2:08:00Rich Roll?

  There's a whole industry built upon that idea.

• 2:08:03Speaker 01

  Very much so, very much so. So you only need an hour max.

• 2:08:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  You know, but then think about this is that you're outside of the gym 23 hours. Which one do you think holds more weight for building muscle? You know, like, yeah, you break down in the gym, but you build outside of the gym. Your daily habits outside of the gym hold way more value than what you do inside of the gym. So if you can get your diet right, you can get your daily habits right, get everything kind of just your ducks in a row. Then the results will really start to come in. So that's what I'm talking about, the extra growth in different aspects of people's lives.

• 2:08:36Rich Roll?

  And where are you on the whole like low weight, high rep? Low rep, high weight, like, are you like, how does all that work? Like, I don't know anything about that stuff.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Oh, man, there's so many different.

• 2:08:46Rich Roll?

  There's different theories, right?

• 2:08:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You talk to one person, it's one thing. You talk to another person, it's another thing. I'm a big believer in periodization training. So you follow something for an extended amount of time. Eventually you'll plateau because your body's so adaptive and it responds like more efficiently the next time you do it.

• 2:09:03Rich Roll?

  Diminishing returns, so you gotta shake it up.

• 2:09:05Speaker 01

  You gotta shake it up. So I follow things for about four weeks at a time. And sometimes I'll go in and do a completely new set of training routines just to kind of help create that shock value to my body. So it'll help stimulate it to grow in another area because the more you work out, the harder it is to figure out these new ways to stimulate your body. So sometimes I'll do high rep, low weight. Sometimes I'll do low weight, high rep. Or did I say that right? Yeah, the opposite, right? So heavier with lower reps or lighter with higher reps. There's many different people that will tell you that works. There, you can do a traditional bro split. A bro split's like a five day workout split where you go like.

• 2:09:41Rich Roll?

  That's not where you get mad at your buddy who you work out with?

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  That's a different kind of bro split. That's a bro breakup. That's a bro breakup, which does create bodybuilders too.

• 2:09:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:53Speaker 01

  So, you know, your five day split would be like chest on Monday, back on Tuesday, take a rest day. Legs on, on Thursday, arms on Friday. So it's like an isolation style workout.

• 2:10:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:05Speaker 01

  Then you have like your upper lower crowd, which likes to do upper body one day, lower body the next day. Take a rest day, upper body, lower body, take a rest day. Then you have people that do push pull where it's like you do all pushing movements. You do chest, triceps.

• 2:10:18Rich Roll?

  That's what I've always done.

• 2:10:19Speaker 01

  It's very effective. All of them work. All of them have their own. Uses. It's like, I tell people, like, same thing with nutrition. You have a toolbox, and you have different tools for different purposes. If you use the wrong tool for the job, you're not going to get the right result. So same thing with keto, same thing with, you know, the low carb thing, or high carb thing. Like, it's all like relative to what that specific point in time is in your fitness journey.

• 2:10:45Rich Roll?

  Right. I like it, man. All right, parting words. Somebody's listening to this. They're like, "All right, I'm motivated. I'm going to the gym. Nehemiah tell me what to do. What's the one thing I should do? What's the one thing I should eat?" Everybody wants to distill it down into that, you know, little box that you can check. But if you could impart like some sense of wisdom or empowerment for somebody who's just trying to like, get a little bit fitter, eat a little bit healthier, perhaps believe in themselves a little bit more.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  So, so a few different nuggets I got for these, this crowd. First thing is that you can't outwork a bad diet. Remember that. Get your diet in, in check first, then worry about working out. When you go to the gym, go with intention and go with a plan. Have a checklist. Just, just by doing the checklist, you're doing more than what you would have done if you're just wandering around. Number three-

• 2:11:41Rich Roll?

  Be intentional.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Walk into the gym with intention and like you're clocking into a, you're clocking into work. Like, get the work done and then worry about your other stuff later. Number three would be focus on the bigger picture. So many, I get so many questions about, what about meal timing? What about if I eat this on, in breakfast instead of lunch, or eat too many carbs at dinner? Like, think about the big picture. Like, first worry about how much you should be eating and just choose a 24-hour period and make sure you eat that much in the day. Then break it down and say like, how, like, then your next target would be like, how many grams of protein you're, you're needing. And then just focus on the big things. Like, it's like the 80/20 rule. Like, if, if 20%

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  of your effort gives you 80% of the results, focus on that. Don't worry about the extra, the extra detail that's not going to give you or yield the most results with the amount of effort that you're putting in. So, the, the 20% that's going to give you the biggest results is, like I said-

• 2:12:42Speaker 01

  Fix your diet. Second thing, going to the gym with intention. Third thing would be consistency. Just be consistent. Just be consistent. There's no secret formula.

• 2:12:52Rich Roll?

  It's not sexy, though.

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  It's not, and people don't want to hear it. But it's the reality. And you know, there's a reason why the guy in the gym that has been going to the gym for years, like you say, and they look the exact same, is because they've been going to the gym and doing the same bullshit exercises they've been doing the last 10 years, and they've been eating the same exact way they've been eating the last 10 years, you know? Like, they're consistent, but they're consistent in the wrong approach. So like, fix certain problems first, and then you start to see your results climb.

• 2:13:21Rich Roll?

  Nimai was awesome, man. Thanks for talking to me. Beautiful, super inspiring. I'm really excited for the next chapter that's soon going to be unfolding. I think when Game Changers comes out, you know, it's going to strike a major chord, and it's going to put you in another stratosphere in terms of public awareness. And it's beautiful that you're carrying this mantle and trying to help people, man. So anything I can do to help you, I think it's fantastic.

• 2:13:50Speaker 01

  Thank you, man. I really do appreciate that. And I'm ready, ready for the next chapter.

• 2:13:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And is there a competition coming up?

• 2:13:57Speaker 01

  There was a few this year that I kind of started prepping for. I did three this year, back to back to back, and just kind of got, I needed to focus more on my business and everything else. So it's like, it's really tough to juggle bodybuilding prep and traveling and speaking at events, and then trying to start up a business and do that. So decided to take a little break.

• 2:14:18Rich Roll?

  Are you, you have any speaking things coming up? Like, is that on the Vegan Fitness website, or on your Instagram, or where should people go to?

• 2:14:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. My Instagram, I'm probably the most active. So you just find me at Nimai underscore Delgado. So it's N-I-

• 2:14:33Rich Roll?

  Why do you have the underscore? Did somebody take your name?

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  No, I feel like I have a unique name. So people always botch it. So before, it was just Nimai Delgado, but people were like, what am I looking at? Like, they couldn't distinguish where the first and last name started. So I had to put the underscore in there. And then veganfitness.com is going to be a really exciting website for people to go. It's going to essentially be like an online resource for anybody. That is interested in the plant-based lifestyle from an evidence-based perspective.

• 2:15:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's exciting. That's very cool.

• 2:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:04Rich Roll?

  And you got the Generation V podcast recently launched.

• 2:15:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:15:07Rich Roll?

  Check that out.

• 2:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, Generation V has been an exciting, exciting project. I like it a lot better than YouTube and that whole platform.

• 2:15:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. It's a, you know, you can breathe, you know?

• 2:15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you get to know people. You get to really share a story.

• 2:15:19Rich Roll?

  That's the beautiful thing about it.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like Instagram's really instant, instant gratification, right? Podcast, you're in their ear, you're talking, they get to know you as a person. And I feel like that's more convincing than a picture.

• 2:15:32Rich Roll?

  For sure. All right, man. Peace and plants. We did it. How do you feel?

• 2:15:37Speaker 01

  I feel good, man.

• 2:15:38Rich Roll?

  You good?

• 2:15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could go for another two hours.

• 2:15:40Rich Roll?

  You did? All right. You've been going. Yeah, we went 210, man. We rocked it. Awesome. Uh, thank you so much. Come back anytime and talk to me, man.

• 2:15:47Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. I appreciate you, brother.

• 2:15:49Rich Roll?

  All right. Peace.

• 2:15:53Rich Roll?

  Did I not say that he is awesome? What a super cool guy. I hope you guys enjoyed that. Let Nimai know how this one landed for you by hitting him up on Instagram, at Nimai underscore Delgado. Check out his podcast, Generation V. Be sure to check out my YouTube channel for the visual version of this podcast, so you can see how absolutely jacked this guy is, as well as clips and behind-the-scenes stuff that we're sharing on that platform as well. And hit up the show notes on the episode page on richroll.com to take this experience beyond the earbuds. If you're looking for nutritional guidance, check out our meal planner at meals.richroll.com. We have this amazing platform

• 2:16:33Rich Roll?

  where we are offering you guys thousands of plant-based recipes, all customized based on your personal preferences with unlimited grocery lists and grocery delivery, amazing customer support, available to you seven days a week from experts, people who really know what they're talking about, available to answer all of your questions. And it's just a dollar ninety a week when you sign up for a year. For more, visit meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu on my website. If you would like to support our work here at the RRP, you should just share the show with your friends and on social media. Tell your aunt about it. Tell your Uber driver. Tell your supervisor or your yoga teacher. You get the point. And hit subscribe on my

• 2:17:15Rich Roll?

  YouTube channel and whatever audio platform you use to enjoy the show. You can also financially support the program on Patreon at richroll.com/donate. And I want to thank everybody who helped produce today's show. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering, production, show notes, and interstitial music. Blake Curtis and Margot Lubin for video and graphics. Reese Robinson for behind the scenes video and portraits. My man DK David Kahn for sponsorship relationships. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. I really appreciate you guys listening. See you back here next week with the great Tony Hawk. Until then, be well, my friends. Peace, plants, and much love.