Jonathan Van Ness EXCLUSIVE: He Reveals What Happened With JVN Hair (The Story He Hasn’t Shared Until Now)

Today’s conversation all started with a viral video where I questioned if JVN Hair was the biggest celebrity brand failure of all time. Jonathan Van Ness, Emmy-winning host of Queer Eye, bestselling author, comedian, and founder of JVN Hair, opens up about the biggest challenges of his career - from beauty brand bankruptcy to personal health crises - and how he fought his way back. This is JVN like you’ve never heard him before: unfiltered, vulnerable, and brutally honest about fame, money, and survival. Why JVN Hair became the fastest-growing brand... and then went bankrupt How losing millions overnight changed his entire approach to money What it feels like to carry the weight of a team and brand in crisis The shocking health scare that left him with “two buttholes” at his lowest point Why he fired his business team and finally took control How the Windsong Global deal gave him equity and a second chance The reality of building a celebrity brand without a safety net His reflections on Queer Eye, fame, and being targeted in culture wars The role of therapy, resilience, and self-acceptance in rebuilding Why his mission is still joy, curiosity, and making people feel beautiful This episode is more than a story about bankruptcy - it’s a masterclass in resilience, authenticity, and reclaiming your power when everything falls apart. HSR Angels get 25% off at JVN Hair with code HSR25(Excludes bundles, subscriptions, gift cards) ⸻ This episode is sponsored by:⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠HSR Newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Get 3 months free using ⁠this link ⁠⸻ ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ If you like what you hear, rate, review, and subscribe to Hot Smart Rich, the podcast supporting women who own their worth — in business, wealth, and life. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe on YouTube⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⸻ 💌Own your worth — and build the life you want. Subscribe to the Hot Smart Rich newsletter, the no-BS guide to startup life, consumer brands, and becoming your hottest, smartest, richest self, written by Maggie Sellers. Join 250,000+ women building wealth, confidence, and community on their own terms. ⁠⁠⁠⁠Subscribe here⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⸻ Become an HSR Angel in the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Global HSR WhatsApp⁠⁠⁠⁠ channel⁠! ⸻ Follow Maggie: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Tiktok⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Locker⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ShopMy⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ama... Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Maggie Sellers Reum?

  If you're starting a business, there are certain things that are so fun to think about. Y'all know I love a mood board, so everything that relates to the creative, the name, the brand, the website, the vision board. But then there are the things that make you pause and ask, "Am I even doing this correctly? Or do I even want to be doing this?" Like forming your business, getting the right documents, keeping your personal information private. This is where our sponsor, Northwest Registered Agent, is so helpful. They're a one-stop shop for founders who want to launch and legitimize their business without turning it into a giant admin spiral. They help you form an LLC or a corporation, act as your registered agent, and give you tools like a business address, operating agreement, website, phone number, professional email, and free guides.

• 0:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  They also have real corporate guides who know your local laws. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/hsrfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/hsrfree.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games! Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 1:08Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 1:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it.

• 1:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Holy shit. JVN, are you ready to get hot, smart, rich?

• 1:36Speaker 03

  I'm so ready to get hot, smart, rich.

• 1:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I feel like you already are hot, smart, rich.

• 1:39Speaker 03

  I'm just hot and smart.

• 1:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, we're on the road to rich, which we're gonna get into.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So this is gonna be probably the most intense interview I've ever done.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Scared.

• 1:48Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I, at one point, called your brand my favorite celebrity beauty brand and potentially the biggest celebrity beauty brand failure. So this is gonna be a lot, but let's just start how we always do, with consumption habits. What is the last thing that you put on your credit card?

• 2:03Speaker 03

  Um, a bag.

• 2:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Which bag?

• 2:07Speaker 03

  Um, a Birkin, a Birkin.

• 2:09Maggie Sellers Reum?

  The next question I always ask is, "What is the most expensive?" Thing you bought, but that would be it.

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, right?

• 2:16Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:17Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, my God, what's the most expensive thing?

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Jewelry for sure, or art.

• 2:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, and what's the timeframe of this?

• 2:23Speaker 03

  Um, well, I like to do this thing where when I make money, I light it on fire and throw it out the window.

• 2:29Maggie Sellers Reum?

  But I would actually say art and Hermes actually keep their value.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  I do. I have made good investments.

• 2:34Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And is this you using your gut instinct, or you have a team behind you that's helping you with this?

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Um, I do have a financial team, but they're usually dealing with my gut instinct.

• 2:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, they're like cleaning up the mess.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, fair. So, like I said, I at one point fell in love with your brand. This is like early 2023, and by August 2023, there was a huge announcement that it was going bankrupt under Amorous, your parent company.

• 3:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 3:01Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So I want to go back to the beginning of JVN Hair, and let's like tell this full story. So how long had you been in the public eye before you were approached by Amorous to start a brand?

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Well, I approached Amorous to start a brand.

• 3:13Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 3:14Speaker 03

  And I had been, Queer Eye came out in February of 2018. The end of 2019, I had this idea to make a line based off of goal versus hair type.

• 3:23Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 3:23Speaker 03

  So that was like end of 2019, I started like sketching out and having some ideas. And then I was looking for a company to partner with that would let me use glass and aluminum. And I pitched to like a lot of other like incubators, and once I got to the glass and aluminum part, it like, they're like, oh, and then they're, I'm sure we can do something else. I was like, no, I really am like committed to that part. So then I had been working with Biossance for like a year. And so then I was like, oh, my God, was the partner right below, like right under my nose this whole time? Like, why am I looking at all these other people? Like, maybe I could start with whoever owns Biossance. And so that's how I got the idea to pitch Amorous on JVN Hair.

• 3:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so you pitched Amorous on JVN Hair, but you had mentioned on Gloss Angeles that you had a seven-figure opportunity as an ambassador with a very reputable hair brand.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So why would you have turned that down to start a brand with Amorous? Like, what was fueling that decision?

• 4:12Speaker 03

  Well, I just thought it was kind of like this interlude of Solange's album, A Seat at the Table. There's this interlude, and this guy's like, if I get offered this much for this, then how much could I really be worth if I just like invested in myself? I'm paraphrasing there.

• 4:26Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  But I was like, if this company thinks that I could be worth that, like, I'd just been doing so many endorsements and I was like, I want to make a future for myself. And so then I thought, I had some ideas that I thought could be interesting to like imbue into that partnership, but then I was like, what are the chances that they're going to like, listen to me in that sort of way? And then I kind of investigated it a little bit further and I was like, I don't think that it will be responsive in that way. So then that's when I was like, I want to do this for myself. I want to do this for my future. And I love doing hair. And so I figured like, let me create something that I can grow with for a really long time.

• 4:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  At that time, though, you had mentioned like you did not want to get involved in things like ingredient sourcing and finances. So when you thought about what your role would look like, like what was your ideal role? And then was that actually what you ended up doing when you were under Amorous?

• 5:08Speaker 03

  What I was really passionate about is formulas, how something works. And then like naming conventions, casting, social, like, but I was like not, oh, and then packaging. Like, I really wanted like glass and aluminum. But I didn't mind like how we get that or like, I didn't know about any of that stuff.

• 5:26Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right.

• 5:27Speaker 03

  I'm very like an eternal student. Like, I love to learn. So whether we were at Amorous or where we've been since, I just have always been like in there. I just like want to learn. I want to ask questions.

• 5:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Are you, before you decided to do this brand, are you just like really passionate about sustainability or the environment? Or where did that call to do something different in the haircare space come from?

• 5:45Speaker 03

  Well, I got my start at Evita.

• 5:47Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  So I really drank that Kool-Aid. Like, I guzzled that Kool-Aid like it was running away from me. Like, I went to the Institute of Minneapolis when I was 18. I graduated when I was 19. And even before that, my, I'm from a really little town in Illinois. And I remember my mom taking me to the St. Louis Frontenac Mall to this Evita store there when I was like 11. And I was like, oh my God, these shamies, like what is fair trade? I just became obsessed. And then later, we went on a family vacation to the Mall of America like a few years later, where I notoriously, it's like a funny family story. I got lost and they found me at a Bath and Body Works, like in a corner, like just like reading ingredient lists on everything. So from a very early age, I thought like ingredient stories, how

• 6:30Speaker 03

  to use something and just kind of connecting with yourself through beauty was always like really inspiring to me.

• 6:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So at this time, you're building a brand under Amorous. Things are going really well for the first, how long of this journey?

• 6:43Speaker 03

  Probably up until that day in 2023, except, well, yeah. So we launched in like August of 2021 and things were going really good and expanding, making new products. And then it was like, the day of the announcement, I think, is when we found out, if my memory serves me correctly. I think in my whole experience at Amaris, I think I'd been paid on time like no times. Like at no time did I ever get paid on time. They also had like a really long grace period in their pay schedule, which I was like in trust, but that happens in the industry a lot. So that didn't necessarily like raise alarm bells. But then, when they filed, I was like, oh no, they owed me a lot of money.

• 7:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Did you have a gut instinct that things were not right up until that day?

• 7:34Speaker 03

  No, there were things that happened. I didn't think it was bankruptcy or not having money, but I certainly thought like, like there would be photo shoots or we would do these photo shoots and then like we couldn't use the images because like the team hadn't been paid yet. And I'd be like, you guys, this like really affects our ability to do things down the road if we can't like get these selects and do what we need to do with our retailers and do what we need to do on our website. Like, what's the point in investing all this photo shoot if we don't like what's happening?

• 7:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  So that, but then there's always like, there's always like a reason or there's always like a chat. But the interesting thing, not interesting, ha ha, but like interesting is that like our InSolar, JVN Hair team, we can like submit all the invoices that we wanted to, but like a different team pays for it.

• 8:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Hmm.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  There was like a shared team that like paid for like everyone's everything. So that was like really frustrating because whether it was paying for something or choosing like where we sourced something or how we stored something for our brand, we didn't have control over that. So that was like really difficult.

• 8:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  For sure. Because also like you as the face are who people are coming to and being like, JVN hasn't paid me, when really your hands are tied, being like, it's not me, it's this controlled group that's doing it for all of Amaris's brands.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Did you ever have situations where people were like coming to you being like, like, explain one of those to me?

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Like getting a call from someone who I really, really respect, who's like family member had like done like merch for us and was like, we haven't been paid for like a year. What do I do? And I was like, oh my God. So it's not just me.

• 8:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Interesting, because I'm gonna ask you a tough question. So when you first joined Amyris, did you have equity in the brand?

• 9:06Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Looking back, naming the brand after yourself without ownership in that, is that a decision that you felt like you made too quickly? Or you just didn't know the information? Or what led you there?

• 9:17Speaker 03

  So picture it.

• 9:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  Where it's COVID, we're picking the brand. It's like me and that agency. There's this like pitch deck and it's like, we could name it something that has nothing to do with you. Like, you know, just like a name, like pretty hair.

• 9:31Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right, red shirt.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could do one that's more named off of you. Or you could do one that's like, they're just like, and so I was like, sitting at my desk and I was like, JVN seems fun.

• 9:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, okay.

• 9:42Speaker 03

  So that's how much we did it. There's a lot of like, think now, or like, do it now, and then deal with the ramifications later, which is not that fun. There's so many things that I would do differently with what I know now, had I known it then.

• 9:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, and your team around you at the time, they weren't like, JVN, don't name this brand after yourself if you don't have ownership in it.

• 10:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, no.

• 10:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  They didn't?

• 10:05Speaker 03

  No.

• 10:05Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so things go incredibly well. Like, you guys are the fastest growing haircare brand for a long period of time, two years. Up until that day, you're like, wait, I'm finding out that the parent company is going bankrupt. Can you take me back to that moment where you actually found out?

• 10:20Speaker 03

  I can't remember exactly where I was, but I just remember thinking like, okay, I wonder if they're gonna sell all of the brands, or like, some of the brands. Like, I wonder what they're gonna do. And then I was like, it wasn't for like, an hour or two, I was like, wait, that means I'm not gonna get paid. Like, I didn't realize, I was like, wait, that sucks. Um, so that was just like, a lot to take in. And then figuring out, from that point, like, talking to my team, it's like, they're not bankruptcy lawyers, they're entertainment lawyers. Whom, by the way, none of my team had ever built a beauty brand before.

• 10:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  For sure, this was so new.

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, with like, any of their clients, but this is their first time in beauty. And also, the personalities at Amyris were like, A lot.

• 11:05Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Well, and I feel like everyone can relate to that where if you have an expert that is like built all of these global brands and they're telling you this is the way things are doing. It's honestly hard to question that because you're being put in this position where you're looking up and being like, teach me your ways. It's very hard to stand up for yourself in that moment.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  It was in that like couple of days process where my team and I are like, wait, we're gonna have to like get a bankruptcy lawyer like, because you know, you don't do that law. So like, that's like an added expense. As I'm realizing that like, I'm not gonna have this large chunk of line item in my budget. And it's not just as easy as like, I couldn't have the people that were representing Amorous. Like, you know, so just finding that I was like, gonna have this huge shortfall of money. As I'm like, also needing to find like a new team to kind of help me navigate that situation. And I was like, I mean, I'm a comedian. So I was like on tour that entire time. I'm like on stage doing meet and greets. From the time that the bankruptcy happened to when we were sold, we like couldn't do anything. It was like the bank that's like representing Amorous is the one that's like taking all the meetings

• 12:05Speaker 03

  and finding all the buyers and kind of setting everything up. So it was a really like powerless situation to find yourself in because it's like, it's not like I could just like go out and find somebody. It's like they needed to do it. And it wasn't really until the 11th hour. It went from being this like, don't worry to like, oh God, this is bad. So there was like a good like two weeks there where I was like, I didn't know if we were gonna find a home or if we were gonna have a future, which was so sad.

• 12:31Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And scary.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Did you get told by the company internally or did you have to find out like everyone else did through the press?

• 12:38Speaker 03

  We found out, I mean, I think that all happened on like the same day.

• 12:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wow.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  It was like really close. I mean, there was like murmurings of like, you know, is this a possibility? Could it happen? But we didn't know if it was like, if they would sell some of the brands or if they would like, we just didn't exactly know what was gonna. So that was all pretty really close together.

• 12:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So you're on tour, you're dealing with a million things. It's not like you're just a founder. You have a lot of things going on. When that gets announced and then you do end up selling to Windsong Global in December of 2023, like what was that three month period or four month period like?

• 13:13Speaker 03

  Well, not to bring it up, but I literally, my body, like, there is this thing called a fistula where if your butt gets, like, your butt gland can get infected and it literally burrows a tunnel out of your body. I had, I developed a fever. I was like so sick, like so sick. And I was like, this must be COVID. Do I have pneumonia? What's going on? And then like I bent over in the mirror and I looked and I had like a literal second butthole. So that's how I was doing.

• 13:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, God.

• 13:39Speaker 03

  I literally grew a second fucking asshole. So I've seen your video with two fucking assholes. Biggest celebrity brand failure of all time with my gaping two assholes. Not fun. Uh, so it was just all around, not great. Poor Teresa over here, our president, had to, I literally found it as she was walking in the door for us to go into our like Star Trek shoulder to shoulder in my office, like, k-k-k-k-k-k, zoom interview. It was like, Teresa and I were like shoulder to shoulder for like 10 days in like a, it felt like a, like a crisis room.

• 14:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  A beauty crisis room.

• 14:17Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 14:18Speaker 03

  So emotionally, not great.

• 14:19Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Speaker 03

  There were nights where like I would literally wake up, like yelling people's names that were on our team because I was so concerned. And because there was people who I've worked with for three years at that point. There was people who I'd known for decades that I worked with through, you know, friends. It just was devastating.

• 14:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  So like people's livelihoods, feeling like I was responsible for that. Also, like the embarrassment, the feeling of like I trusted people that totally, you know.

• 14:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Led you astray.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. So it was like a lot to deal with. So for the first half of that time from like August to December, it was like, well, find a buyer, everything will be fine. Then from like around like mid-October to like December, it was like not sure. And I just think like numbers were weird and I didn't, and it's like, I never was like. In the P and Ls, I learned what a P and L was through that process. But I was never in that, you know, prior. So then it got to like the like, the last round where it was like, wait, like, what's gonna happen? Cause like, I didn't wanna go if it was gonna be someone that was gonna like, compromise our integrity, like mess up our formulas. Then there was this other scary thing that could happen where like, someone could just buy us if I didn't have the money that didn't even wanna work with me.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Like, they could just like, buy the intellectual property, buy the inventory, buy the name, and then sell it wherever the hell. And like, I kept saying like, wait, that's like a, I'm feeling like, that's like a JoJo situation, like, like, you know, singer, we all know who JoJo is, we're all millennials here. So, that, and so there was like, someone who was like that, and then there was like, two other people in like, the final round, and so, once I heard of like, these three potential people, I was like, well, I doubt that, that brand I hope doesn't make a cute offer. But then the other two, I was like, ah, this could be cute. And so, and one of them was Win Song. And they had had a couple of good stories of like, other brands that they had turned around. And then once I started meeting with them, they were like, really nice. And like, I was like, glass, aluminum, formulas.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  I was joking, it's not that funny of a joke, but we had just reformulated our nurture collection and changed the packaging. And I was like, oh my god, was, did this formula do it? Like, was this the one that put them over the edge? Like, I know I wanted to add the theramides and everything, but I didn't mean to like, base up them and everything. But I was so obsessed with this nurture formula, like nurture and air dry cream, I was like,

• 16:36Maggie Sellers Reum?

  We have to do it.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Well, we can't change them.

• 16:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Like, and I just was, and I'm really picky about that. I mean, I've been doing hair since I was like, 17, so I like, well, it's not lying on the podcast, since I was 18, but I think 17 sounds a little more dramatic. But yeah, so I just, I really wanted to make sure that we could keep the integrity of the line, so I was like, if I went through this much to get here, like, I get that we couldn't stay where we were, and I get that we were gonna have to make changes, but I just didn't wanna do it if it couldn't stay in my integrity. And so, Win Song really did make me feel like, yes. And so, then I was just like, oh my god, I hope this other company that wants to JoJo me doesn't make a better offer. And then that didn't happen.

• 17:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right.

• 17:09Speaker 03

  And so, yeah.

• 17:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So to call the elephant in the room out, I made this video because your products like saved my life. I was getting really greasy hair at the time and your green formula. And body is the only shampoo and conditioner. If you're listening to this, if you have a slicked back bun, it is the only thing that cleans your hair. And I actually didn't, like, I didn't buy it because of you, which I think what's talent actually really want. They want their brand to live on without people buying it for them. Sephora recommended it to me and I was like obsessed with your brand, like biggest diehard. And so when I saw the news, I was kind of like, like I had worked with celebrities and helped them build brands. And so I was kind of like, it actually wasn't directed towards you. It was actually directed to your team around you because from the outside looking in,

• 17:53Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I was like doing some numbers and some math, be like, this brand must be doing like at least seven million dollars. And I was like, I feel like this is a very low amount for it to be bought from bankruptcy court. Like, how did it get to that point?

• 18:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And so I think it was one of those things where looking back and as I was prepping for this interview, like there's always things that we wish we did differently and knowing what you were going through in that time and having brands myself now that have gone to bankruptcy court, like I know the hands tied process that it is. But I think in that moment, I was kind of just like, this isn't making sense. And a lot of that is because it didn't make sense on Amorous's part. Like there were multiple brands that they had to put up to auction. And I think what I'm interested in to hear from you is like, did you go to the Naomi Watts who ended up buying their brand back? Or like the Rosie and you were like, what are you guys doing?

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Rosie and I talked.

• 18:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And did that influence your decision or you were kind of like, this is my own thing. I just want your input.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  Well, Rosie and I just like, like said hi in our DMs and I was like, oh my God, I can't, we were talking, I love you. Um, and then, and so then we were kind of like talking about what situation we were in. I think the thing that I can say it, that we both expressed were just like, It was so nice to talk to someone who had been through something similar.

• 19:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Of building a successful brand and having the rug pulled out from under them. I think that's the thing too, that's so sad or just frustrating for me is it's like JV and hair didn't go bankrupt. Amorous went bankrupt.

• 19:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  Um, but I think, so as far as like the numbers are concerned, I think what's bankruptcy happened. They were like really wanting like a big sale. They just need like a big sale.

• 19:29Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  And once they got a big sale, they didn't really focus too much on any other brands.

• 19:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  And so for me, because I didn't have equity, in which, remember like in Behind the Music when Left Eye was like, how does a number one selling like girl band like go bankrupt? Get out the pen and paper and get ready, do your math. Sorry, I feel like I'm about to like do that right now. So when we started the company, we, the reason that I didn't have equity is because I didn't invest a cent in it. I got a really good signing bonus and I got a really good monthly and I got bonuses off of monthly. So because they invested so much in it, they were like, okay, you're not going to own anything because we're investing all of this money. But in, in success, in like three, four, five years, we'll come back, we'll renegotiate. And so the goal was to have equity at some point, but we weren't having it at the very top.

• 20:16Speaker 03

  And so if I could do that again, over or not, like shoulda, coulda, woulda, like it's good for me knowing in future. But one really interesting thing, I love how I keep saying interesting, haha, but this part I would think about differently. I, I remember when I started JV and hair, I was like, this is my legacy and I want to be with this brand in like 50 years. I always want to be able to do hair. I always want to have hands in my hair. So like an exit plan or like selling and success was like never on my radar, like ever. Cause like, I just was like, I was like, I just want to have like a great office where I can do hair. Like I was so naive, so much so that I was like, I don't ever want to sell, even if it is successful. Like, and now I understand how that goes. It's like you sell and then you stay with it. Like I didn't know that you could do both because I was silly girl. I was trying to learn how to be an author and a standup comedian after having been a hairdresser.

• 21:00Speaker 03

  It was like a lot, like so much was changing. In that bankruptcy process, I could feel from my end, once Biossance was sold for a better number. They really didn't like give, they didn't care too much. Whereas prior to that, they really cared. And then I definitely felt like a shift where like, once they had like a number that they felt like was better from one of the companies, they were like, they just wanted out. They just like wanted to be done. Which kind of worked for me because I didn't have equity. So whether we sold for $10 million or 50 cents, it didn't make a bit of difference to me because I wasn't going to get paid. Right. Any extra or less. So I think that's just kind of what I was thinking. I was like, I just wanted to find a home that I trusted, where we had more ownership of the financial side.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  And that was one thing with Win Song that they were just like so amazing about.

• 21:48Speaker 04

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 21:52Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  Film for IMAX.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  Somebody asked me how I'd define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others. Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and the new Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 22:34Speaker 06

  Hey, listen. Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet. And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.

• 22:56Speaker 06

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. A Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up. Okay, I'm so excited to learn more about the Win Song partnership now. But one of the other questions that I have in the bankruptcy process, when the

• 23:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Bankruptcy was announced and you finally gained control with Windsong Global. Did it affect sales at all? Walk me through that process.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  I mean, yes. And I think also 2024 was not a great year for me. I, there's just a lot of turmoil. There was like a lot happening. But I think a large reason, the bigger reason why our sales were impacted is because at that bankruptcy process, inventory couldn't get paid for. So there was like, there was just like a clog in the system of like even having product. Cause with like distributors and the like factories who make our products, like if they were like not being paid, they were like not releasing stuff. So there was just like a huge shortage of inventory through a lot of that. I think that was the biggest reason. And then Amorous was like, their, their business model was like growth at any cost.

• 24:03Speaker 03

  So they would spend like any amount of money, basically to make any amount of money, which I always thought was weird, but I didn't understand.

• 24:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  Uh, like VC, I didn't understand that venture capital life. Whereas our company now, Windsong Global, their growth, but it's like measured growth. And you need to do that because you're running at a profit, not because you're lighting money on fire and throwing it out the window. I also think in any transition, like even in the best of situations, sales are going to be affected. Because in our case, we already had inventory that we were up against, but then also like Amorous spent so much more money in advertising. Whereas like Windsong, we have a much smaller spends.

• 24:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  So like our ROAS needs to be like way more effective. And so like, we need to be like way more like choosy about like where we spend our money, how we spend our money, what's the assets that we're putting money behind. Like that's a way bigger deal than it was where we were.

• 24:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I'm smiling because you sound like such an experienced CEO. It's so amazing. I listened to your episode with Tori Dunlap, which I loved.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  I love her.

• 24:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  With her.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:00Maggie Sellers Reum?

  She was on yours. You were on hers recently and.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  She makes me feel really safe.

• 25:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  So I feel like I talk way more with her than I do normally.

• 25:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Well, I loved all of the episodes and I think like your vulnerability and ability to like really help people who. Feel the same way, like money is not something that they can control, or they just like don't understand it. And I think a lot of the time money is such a mindset. It's like how you think about it is actually going to dictate what your financial future looks like. Every ambitious woman has a secret weapon. So let yours be the Hot Smart Rich Insights. It's how over 250,000 women are owning their worth in business, wealth, and life. Whether you're building a brand, making moves in your career, or wanting to get control over your finances, the Hot Smart Rich Newsletter delivers the cultural context and consumer intel to keep you ahead. With only six months left in the year,

• 25:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  it's time to make consumer trends, financial hacks, and HSR insights your best friend instead of mindlessly scrolling on social media. We've built one of the most powerful communities of women at the intersection of consumer, capital, and culture. So join us with the paid version of our newsletter free for three months with the link in the show notes to claim your free offer. One of the things that I actually was so fascinated about, and I really wanted to ask you because you talk on her podcast about how this experience kind of changed your catalyst for personal finance evolution. And I think a lot of people listening to this will be surprised to think about you as a top reality TV star at this time. I think you'd already written a book and people are like,

• 26:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  well, didn't he just have the money to purchase the brand outright? What do you think that this experience has really done to you in your personal finance journey?

• 26:46Speaker 03

  I mean, at the end of the day, top reality star, self-employed. So for any self-employed entrepreneur, you would know. And I kind of had like similar financial habits, whether I was making like $30,000 a year or $3 million a year, which is like impulse buy now, think about it later. And I've worked really hard to budget. I've worked really hard to be more proactive about it. And I think it was the trauma of realizing that I was going to have like a seven-figure shortfall of something that I thought I was going to have. And knowing it's like, not only does Amherst have employees, like I have, like. Seven full-time employees.

• 27:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 03

  I also found out through this process that I was like one of less than 10% of American companies that with firms of under 10 employees that pay for all of their health insurance and all of their 401ks. So, I mean, I also pay above industry standard like on all of my roles.

• 27:36Speaker 03

  So navigating that with a shortfall, trying to keep my, you know, myself happy and hopeful through that was really hard, but I think that it it also just it taught me like, don't live so close to the edge.

• 27:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Which I think is important for everyone to hear, especially in this world that we live in, which is like show and like expend beyond your means, but it's like being able to have that safety net to figure out like you never know what's gonna happen is so important.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:03Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so when Sun Global comes in December 2023, it sounds like you were really excited about this.

• 28:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Did you have a say at all in who bought it or walk me through the process for where you have these three buyers and you're like, okay, I want to go with this one. What happens?

• 28:18Speaker 03

  So that so yes and no, like if the JoJo people had come in and been like, we're gonna offer 10 million, then no, because.

• 28:26Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Banker's court would say we need to pay off our debt. We're taking the 10 million.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 28:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Amorous had almost $2 billion at the time.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  Which is to be clear, that's $2,000 million, you guys. I do this whole bit in my show now, when I realized that a billion was like 1,000 millions and not 100 millions, wow, that's why billionaires aren't supposed to exist, you guys, because that's 1,000 millions.

• 28:47Maggie Sellers Reum?

  It's insane.

• 28:48Speaker 03

  That's so much Hermes.

• 28:50Maggie Sellers Reum?

  It is so much Hermes, so many houses.

• 28:52Speaker 03

  You can make a house made of box Kelly's and just replace it anytime there's like even like the tiniest little scratch.

• 28:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So they have almost $2 billion worth of debt, so of course they're gonna take a $10 million offer versus a 1.25 million dollar offer.

• 29:06Speaker 03

  So if that had happened, that would have been like really sad, but I also think if that had happened, I probably would have had legal recourse to like.

• 29:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Step away.

• 29:13Speaker 03

  Yes. And so I do think that ultimately Amorous did want a more beneficial working relationship between me and whoever, because it would probably make their life easier later. So I didn't have say, but I think everyone wanted, because I wanted to stay with the brand and I wanted to preserve like as many people that we were employing at the time, that was my number one priority. So I think that had a little bit of weight, but the biggest weight was like who was gonna pay the most.

• 29:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So it goes to Sun Global.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  And I'm really relieved.

• 29:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What happens?

• 29:46Speaker 03

  I can't remember where I was on that day. But I remember when it happened, like I had just had my butthole surgery and it was really painful. And Teresa was like, stop telling me about your butthole all the time. And I was like, I'm so sorry. I can't stop talking about my butthole. It's like, I just literally cannot stop talking about it because it just hurts so bad. And this is just so crazy and I can't believe that my body like.

• 30:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I grew a second butthole.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, like I cannot believe that my gay body betrayed me in this way. Um, and so, yeah, I was just kind of dealing with that. And then when that, but there was like weeks there, like in like that, like November to early December, where like every time I would like walk into my bathroom and like look at my products, like it was like Julia Roberts and my, and um, pretty woman was like, lay a whisper. And I was like, no. And like, like, like, I was like, look at my shampoo and conditioner in the shower, be like, no. I'm gonna go get fucking biolash. I never want to see again. It was just like so sad, but I never did throw my stuff away. I never threw it away. But I was like, I just like looked at it. I was like, why? I feel like fucking Nancy Kerrigan in 94. I was just like so upset. And then when I realized that we were gonna have a future and we were gonna have a home, I was like, oh my God, it feels so good to not resent you girls.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  That was such a rough three weeks. I didn't want it like feel about like that, about you guys can't just love you so much. But the thought of us like not having a future was like really sending me and it just made me feel so sad.

• 31:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, but.

• 31:10Speaker 03

  And I had two buttholes. So it was just like so much.

• 31:13Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So you fix your butthole. You only have one now.

• 31:15Speaker 03

  Yes, thank God. Yes. It's, I've just been, can I tell you though? After that, after that, I was like, okay, if I do not have colon cancer, I am so, like if my butt's fine, I'm still getting on GLP-1s. Because like, ow, like I cannot, because like my body was just betraying me like left, right and center. And so that was like a huge turning point because I was in so much like physical and mental and like emotional pain. That I was like, I am done being stuck. I'm like done not feeling good. Like I will do anything to feel better. And so it really made me like. I like, I fired my business manager. So you'll love this part of the story. I fired my business team. Um, cause I was like, y'all are crazy.

• 31:53Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Not was, I think, what I wanted, cause I was on celebrity teams. So I was the person that was helping these people build brands and like, JVN, I have to be honest, when I was first negotiating equity deals for clients, like, I had no fucking clue what I was doing. I was like calling my sister who's a CPA, like head of finance at a brand, being like, what am I doing here? Like, how do I like do with this deal? I was trying to hire investment bankers to help consult for me, being like, how do I negotiate equity for this client? Versus like, so I took it upon myself to really like, help these celebrities feel empowered. And so that was the video where I was like, he needs to fire his team, because this is not something that like, he didn't go to MBA business school, like, and so I'm so happy to hear that you did that. So you fire the team.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  Well, I still have my, I still have like my agents and my legal team that got me into that deal. And so we talk about that sometimes, but that's okay. The other thing too, that we did when we went with Win Song is I do have equity now.

• 32:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That's what I was gonna say. So like, how did you guys structure it now? Like, from that day forward, you're like, I have a new home, I have new partners. Like, what happens then?

• 32:50Speaker 03

  Well, I feel like my team kind of learned from their mistakes, which was good. And so now I just have like a base equity no matter what, which is amazing.

• 32:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 03

  Then in success, it can be like a different one.

• 32:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  Um, and then I also can get like bonuses based off of EBITDA, which is cute. So now I know what EBITDA is, which is really fun. Um, so that's kind of how it is now. So like in success, if we sell someday, when we sell someday, um, I will stay with the company, cause I'm such a control freak, I have to be with my girls.

• 33:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So you now have your people, both your products and your actual people. So did the entire team from Amorous come over? Or did you lose some people?

• 33:24Speaker 03

  There were layoffs that happened in that, like, I think right when bankruptcy happened, I think we lost a couple of people there. But that's the crazy part is that like, most of our team stayed and most of them are still with us. And they are like some ride or die, like loyal, hardworking, creative people.

• 33:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Well, you guys have the best products in the industry for hair care. Like, I swear, that's why I was so upset when this whole thing was going down.

• 33:49Speaker 03

  Well, it really is different because I mean, we are silicone free and we use hemisquiline, which really is like a fundamentally different way of approaching hair care. Like air dry cream, if you don't have a hero product, it's really hard to like, to boot yourself through anything. And so that luckily for us, and not to like take credit, but like,

• 34:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You're like, I came up with that.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  I did.

• 34:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  I did.

• 34:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 03

  The name, the formula, I mean, I worked on it with it on a chemist, but I mean, that was like.

• 34:11Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Which one is it? Let's hold it up.

• 34:14Speaker 03

  And to me, and I mean, I've been doing hair since I was 18 years old. This is the most universal, beautiful product. It literally works. If you put this on to tangled hair, like 1A to 4C, it will just make your texture come out and be so much better. So our sales stayed strong. It wasn't like they like, you know, cratered, but some of the biggest, and Teresa, our president, told me like, from the very beginning, she was like, this year is gonna suck. Like, transition years suck, and they always are gonna suck, and the numbers are gonna be shitty, and the market meetings, you're gonna wanna like, run out of there sobbing, and it's just gonna suck. And I was, in the first market meeting that we did after the transition, I was like, I literally said my exact words leaving that. I was like, that felt like a drive-by shooting.

• 34:54Speaker 03

  Like, literally, were my exact words. Just red, just nothing but red on those graphs. And just all these corporate people and Sephora, and I was like, oh, this feels bad. But wow, what a slog. We really turned that, we really turned it around. We got so much better, so much stronger. So at the beginning, it was about like optimization, obviously, and I think that like, people thought it was gonna be an easier transition than it was. That created a lot of difficulty, like getting everything switched over on the backend, so that that's like seamless on like, a website, and then you like, open up the hood and you're like, wait, how did they build this website? And then, when you know your team can control that versus like how some other team built that like, you know, three years ago in the height of fucking COVID,

• 35:34Speaker 03

  that was a bitch. So, you know, fixing all that and untangling all of that, getting the website functional, getting like the operations side squared away, because that was like our team getting to take ownership for something that they did not have ownership for. So you're just like uncovering like,

• 35:50Maggie Sellers Reum?

  mess after mess.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Disaster after disaster after disaster. So then I started filming Queer Eye season nine, like the end of March. And that was just like, knock down, drag out, gut-wrenching.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  So much anxiety. I can't even tell you. And actually, I've never said this in front of Teresa before, but I'll say it now. There were like times in that transition where I was like, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. I don't even know if I can do this anymore. Like, my soul has just been catwalked on by like stilettos, like Valentino stilettos, but with like little like razors on the end of those little diamond things. And I just felt like I had just been like, just, and I also think, like, in an election year, when you've been like an outspoken political person and you're a brand founder, there was like so much tension there. And then, like, topping off by 2024, like, ending up in like a $220 million, like, pro-Trump campaign, I just really could not fucking catch

• 36:51Speaker 03

  a break in 2024. So that was a lot. I mean, I really feel like every kind of nightmare that I ever hoped wouldn't happen to me in my career, like, kind of happened to me within the space of, like, I don't know, six months. So to come out the other side now, and when we, like, when I found out that we, like, were gonna get the opportunity to expand into Ulta, like, massive. And I've never really talked about this either, but like, through some of that, like, I had advertisers leave my podcast, just taking so many hits, like, to your reputation and to your humanity, and having people question, like, are you a good person? Are you a bad person? Are you an idiot? Or, like, you know, there's just so much, all in that time. And so, coming out on the other side, when we started, like, when advertisers started to come back, and when we started to

• 37:36Speaker 03

  get better opportunities, and when our sales did start to get better, when we did that really hard work of, like, fixing all of those systems and getting our operations better and sourcing our, being able to take control of our sourcing and how we advertise, how we do marketing, how we pay things for social, how we do photo shoots. I mean, we changed how we do everything, outside of literally packaging and our formulas, which is really expensive. Yeah. We have not touched it. So I'm really proud of that. Honestly, not to sound like a a wokey left girl, but I think it's because I'm queer. I mean, I had to do that my entire life. Like, Contracting HIV, growing up in a really conservative community, like to this day,

• 38:18Speaker 03

  if someone says faggot, I'm like, yes. Like, I mean, I was so mercilessly bullied, like verbally, physically, like never felt safe where I was from. And I think that's why as an adult, like, I just feel like there's a part of me that just, and I've said this my whole career, like, I feel like I'm in a constant state of shock because I think it's just so much better. Like, I feel like, and even if I had never gotten Queer Eye, like, just going to the salon and being in a salon in a city where I had, like, a community and, like, clients, like, I just, I was like, I felt like, you know, Ariel with legs. Like, I just felt like I, like, I had made it, you know? So even if I had never done Queer Eye, never done JVN Hair, never had a podcast, never, you know, sold four New York Times bestselling novels, well, three bestselling novels, one bestselling children's book, not that anyone's counting.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  I would have been happy and fulfilled because I love doing hair. So that's one thing I'm really lucky for, that I did have that North Star that I've always loved. But I think that's why I've been able to pick myself up is like, I learned from a young age that like, you need to be able to like entertain yourself and you need to have something that like you are excited for, or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even like successfully, like, you will not survive.

• 39:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  If there is something that you are not passionate and excited to do.

• 39:31Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Or you have a mission. Like, I think that's what, like, I always look for, and even, like, influencers or brands. It's like, do you have something that's gonna pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place? You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then on the other hand, you're able just to like get through the shit of it when you're in it?

• 39:51Speaker 03

  I learned from a young age that you need to be able to entertain yourself and you need to have something that like you are excited for, or you won't be able to make it in life. Not even like successfully, like, you will not survive.

• 40:03Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  If there is something that you are not passionate and excited to do.

• 40:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Or you have a mission. I think that's what I always look for, and even influencers or brands. It's like, do you have something that's gonna pick you up off the floor and get you to that next place? You've also talked about the fact that you are a people pleaser. So how do you, on the one hand, have that trait? And then, on the other hand, you're able just to get through the shit of it when you're in it?

• 40:27Speaker 03

  I don't know. Well, I mean, so much of my therapy has been like in finding my centered self, like in internal family systems, which is like in parts therapy, which is like what I do with my therapist a lot. It's about cultivating your centered self, which is really like, all of us have a centered self. And that's like, that's like the one that's like really clear and compassionate and calm and courageous and centered.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  And so it's like working on like finding who that is and getting out of like my people pleaser part or the part that I have that's really polarized with my people pleaser part is my irritated part, which has also historically gotten me into trouble. So like getting both of them to like calm down enough so I can just be like calm and centered and like feel like I'm in my power has been like what so much of my therapeutic work has been.

• 41:09Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I feel like if I was you, I would just be waking up and be like, I'm literally just trying to make people beautiful and make people feel good. And I'm getting all of this criticism for that. Do you ever just wake up every day and just be like, why is this happening to me?

• 41:24Speaker 03

  Well, I think we're in the middle of like a pretty intense like rightward cultural shift, which I think is why a lot of that's been happening. So some of that like I don't really take super personally. Although, you know, Cheryl Porter, she's this like incredible voice coach. She's like a 22 million follower queen on TikTok. She's got like 12 million followers on her YouTube. She's just making her debut right now on And Juliet on Broadway, but she's incredible. She said something to me that really, I have not stopped thinking about it. And I, I think she changed my life and I think she also like kind of healed two years of trauma with like one sentence. I said something that wasn't even like all of the story about what we're talking about, but it was something about me feeling embarrassed or like shame about something that had happened publicly. And she was like, you have got to stop thinking about yourself like that.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Like, it's not about what happened to me. It's about what can I do for people? Like you have this huge platform, like what can you do for people? What do people want from you? Like stop thinking about like, oh, this happened to me because I had this. And it's like, no, like being of service isn't just like going to volunteer or like going to like, you know, donate something at a soup kitchen. Like being of service is like, what do people need from you? And I was like, oh, my God, I'm so passionate. I'm so creative. I'm all about exploring self-acceptance and like figuring out like how to get in like a better relationship with myself. That, I mean, my literal mission statement is to spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. It's literally what my mission statement is.

• 42:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Love that.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  And it always comes back to that. So I was like,

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, made in PG-13.

• 43:05Speaker 05

  Somebody asked me how I'd define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined? When we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 43:21Speaker 05

  Because identity is not a performance. It's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and the new Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 43:34Speaker 06

  Hey, listen. Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure. Now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet.

• 43:47Speaker 06

  And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.

• 43:56Speaker 06

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. A Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Girl, like, stop thinking about this criticism. Stop thinking about the failure. Stop thinking about like, oh my God, these things happened to me. And start thinking about, and it really was like, she took a fucking gong and like ringing this like bell. And it almost just, I was like, huh. And it was, so I think she Hoffmanned me already. I think it happened like two weeks ago. Because it's really, I've, I like really responded like differently to like so many public, not so many, but a few public things that have happened since that recording where I'm like, wow.

• 44:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You just launched into 700 doors in Ulta, which is like huge. Because what I read from your glossy article that I loved, it goes back to your mission of like being a Midwestern, like that's where you were born, is the Midwest. And Sephora's don't reach that clientele as much as they reach like the New Yorkers, the LA. And so being in Ulta is such a huge accomplishment for you.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 44:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You're met with controversy from people being like, he is a male biologically founded brand. Do people know that also like Olaplex is also like a male founded brand? Like they're like Andrew Rosen in the women's fashion, contemporary fashion category also is a male founded brand. So I guess for you to be met with that controversy when that should be a moment of celebration, like, When do you draw the line of what you say and what you don't?

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Because there was a lot of like conversation on like, oh, this is like what society has normalized. And I was like, yeah, I can agree with you on that. Like, we're normalizing thousands of children being starved to death in front of our eyes. We're normalizing people being blown away in our schools. We're normalizing literally women being forced into birth. 60 million women in this country don't have access to reproductive healthcare anymore. That's what we've normalized. We've normalized people getting shot and killed in broad daylight and then going to work an hour later like nothing happened. I think that's really not normal. I think that so many things in American culture have become so insanely normalized. But I think in a Christian way, as someone who, you know, was like born and raised in the church and was a little altar boy every Sunday of my life

• 45:59Speaker 03

  and went to a Christian sports camp for 12 years, for two weeks every summer, where I won the En Fuego for Christ Award, by the way. Jesus is not concerned about me in a dress as much as he is about like the rampant poverty and corruption. In a world where like we have really not that many reasons to see the best in each other and hope the best for each other. I keep thinking about being angry at conservatives or policies and thinking that like, okay, well, me being angry about that and using my platform to talk about how pissed off I am about that, kind of feels like me. It feels like what I really want Chick-fil-A, you know, but I know that's bad for me. Don't even support our community, you know? But I really need to like make the food at home. But I don't want to make the food at home. I want to do the easy thing. I just like want to order it.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  It's easier for me to like be angry and like be mad at another side and demonize another person than it is for me to say to myself, maybe they were fed information that's not true. Maybe they are in a culture of fear. Like, maybe they just haven't met anyone. Like, you know what I'm saying? It's like easier for us to be like distrustful and angry at someone than it is for us to like get into our compassion. Because it's harder to be compassionate when you have reason and lived experience to not be. Which if we were really talking about Jesus out here, that is what turning the other cheek means. It means like literally being burnt and turning the other cheek to be burnt again. But the point is, I think that's really what his message is about, is turning the other cheek. You're meant to be compassionate with your, with people. You're meant to like not judge people. So, yeah.

• 47:30Speaker 03

  I just think growing up in such a conservative place, I'm like not at all surprised. I'm always disappointed, but I'm never surprised. Because I mean, my hometown voted for Trump like three to one. Like, I'm very-

• 47:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Do your parents still live there?

• 47:40Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Well, no, my dad doesn't, my mom does.

• 47:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And you go back and visit?

• 47:44Speaker 03

  Not that much, no.

• 47:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I was gonna say, like, what does that bring up for you if you were like going back to the place that was just hard to grow up in?

• 47:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't love it. We went for an episode of Queer Eye. It was really hard. I thought, in the moment, it felt really cathartic. And then I found out after we left that there was like an uptick in like attacks on queer people after we left. And that just made, I wrote about it in my second book. You know, like in that song, I think it's by Cassandra that Taylor wrote. She said, when, it's like, when it's like, burn the bitch, they're screaming, but when the truth comes out, it's quiet.

• 48:17Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 48:18Speaker 03

  So it's like, but that also goes for good news, too. Like, people will celebrate the good things, but then if there is like another thing after, it's like, doesn't want to look with that. Doesn't want to-

• 48:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Well, I feel like that's even true for your success, too. Like, people are happy for you to a certain point. And it's like, I've realized, too, that it's like, heavy is the head that wears the crown. Like, when you start achieving and you add to your list of like, you know, I am a stand-up comedian that has sold out tours, and I have bestselling New York Times books, and I'm a beauty brand founder that has risen from the ashes, and I'm doing this again. Like, it's so hard to rationalize as a human, where it's like, as soon as you keep going up and up, people are just waiting to tear you down.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That is hard for me to rationalize with, because I'm just like, we're so here for when things are going badly, and then when things are going well for people, we don't want to celebrate it if it's too much for us.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah, it's interesting, right?

• 49:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah. Can we talk about Queer Eye for a second?

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 49:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. I'm so interested in the transformation that changed you more than it probably changed the person.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Oh, oh my God, there's a few. Um, Tammy always comes up for me from, I think she was like season two, episode one. Um, also, interestingly, when Rolling Stone did come out, she was like one of the very first voicemails that like I had. She's like, we don't believe shit, honey. Like, keep, like, keep your head up. Like, don't you let them like tear you down. Like, I know that's bullshit. Like, she was like, she's just, anytime anything good or bad happens, she's like one of the very first people there. Like, she's just such a love. When I did my, my last, I just did my first, um, young adult fiction novel this year, and it was so fun to write, but I did the book tour in Atlanta and she was like in the front row. She's just like so cute. Mama Tammy, she's like such a good person. But she's a huge one. Angel always comes up for me, too. She was season six.

• 50:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What was the biggest part of their transformation?

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Um, well, I mean, Mama Tammy was, I really feel like she was more for us than we even were for her. I mean, what Bobby did to her, like, community center was like so sweet and it's like really cool how that center is still used in her community. It's like, I think it's really helped her community. Um, but I feel like her love and attention, like, after the show has been like, really so healing. I mean, she's like a confidant. Like, I love her. I follow her kids. Like, I follow her. Like, I love her. Angel, again, I think it's been more like after, because seeing her kind of like come out of her, like, not that she was like in a shell, but I feel like when we did her episode of Queer Eye, it was like 2021, she was really early on in

• 50:47Speaker 03

  her transition. She was like navigating, living in Texas as a trans woman. Now she like lives in Seattle. She's so much more herself. She's like in a community where she feels safe. So I just, and she's like in her twenties. So just like seeing her like expand and grow and like become the woman that she is is like, just really inspiring for me. And also, it kind of makes me realize like some of the ways that like, I like unintentionally put her in a box, like on her episode. Like, I was like, let's do like a blended red light. Like, she wants bold ass red fucking panels all over her hair. And it's not like, I don't think she said that back then, but it's just like seeing her evolve to the woman that she is now. I'm like, wow, like, how have there been ways where like, I've been like, doing what I think would look best without maybe investigating as much as what I thought even the person wanted? Like, that, like, I feel like that's kind of a lesson she taught me

• 51:31Speaker 03

  is like, dig deeper, ask more questions. Um, I think.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Jamie, also from like Queer Eye in Austin, she did like Safe in Austin. She has this like huge animal shelter and she's one that like, I feel like really changed me, still does change me and watching her, she's like someone who similarly, I think has had a really hard time after the show and doesn't have as much support. And like I see her social not get the love and the support that it like once did. And I think that's been hard for her and it's hard to like.

• 51:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Watch it.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:58Maggie Sellers Reum?

  How do you feel with Queer Eye entering into its last season?

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Well, you, we wrapped it last month, we finished.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  And then we just went to the Emmys like two weeks ago or like a week ago, which was for season nine, did not expect to win.

• 52:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That was amazing.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  That was really fun.

• 52:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That was your second?

• 52:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was our second. It was the show's seventh, so not expecting for them to call our name at all. And then there's this thing at like award shows where like there's camera people there, you know, so you can kind of tell like if the camera's in your face, like you might win, but if the camera's nowhere close and like, and that's I could tell in 2024. Cause like all the cameras are like by Shark Tank and I was like, oh my God.

• 52:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  We're not winning.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're so not winning this. And so then when we were there this year, the camera guy took like three gaping steps like past me and I was like, oh shit, but I was like, that's fine. I was like, are you in place of acceptance? Like I knew we weren't gonna win. And then like the lights came on and she opened the envelope and she was like, Queer Eye. And then I felt this like whoosh of air and he was like in my face and I was like, the only other time, this is perfect for the fish to let it come back. The only other time in my life I made that shocked of a face is when I found the second butthole. Literally, my face, like I forgot that I was in glam. Like when they said Queer Eye, I was like, like I palmed my face all the way, like I knocked off lashes. It was so, I cried, it was so fun. It was, it actually was like the most fun win of anything I've ever won.

• 53:20Speaker 03

  Cause I totally did not think we were going to and I'd already accepted not winning. Like I was so just happy to be there. And then I was like, oh my God, the gala is gonna be way more fun now. And it was.

• 53:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So do you think that you'll do reality TV moving forward?

• 53:32Speaker 03

  I hope so. I think it needs to be like the right project. And I also think like my mission statement, I'm serious about that. Like I do, I really wanna spread self-acceptance by modeling joy and curiosity. So it's like, if it doesn't fall in line with that. Um, I also have been like, I'm working on a fiction project right now and I've been learning how to, um, I just, I really like writing.

• 53:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Hmm.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  And I also with JVN Hair, like this morning, I spent like three hours like shooting our air dry cream, like jumbo stuff or like our jumbo content. I did like three models hair, I did my models hair tomorrow, I have a whole salon day to make social content. So I really get like my hairdresser and like artist like mind satiated. Um, and doing our models and like prepping our models and doing all of our photo shoots. And then when I'm not doing that, I really am either like working on stand up or working on writing something or my podcast, which takes up like so much of my time as you understand. So that's kind of like what I spend my time doing, but I, I would love to do unscripted. I think the other thing about unscripted TV is like not in a good place right now. Like Lizzo, I just saw did this really good TikTok where she was like the age, she's

• 54:36Speaker 03

  like, I'm Lizzo, I'm a multi like platinum recording artist. And this is why I tell you that like the golden age of like music videos is dead. I was like, I need to do a hook like that where it's like, I'm on like one of the longest running Netflix shows of all time. And let me tell you why unscripted is like, cause if it's like, no network is willing to take a risk on anything. And you have to like have such insane numbers for them to bring you back a second time, which is why us making it for 10 seasons is like unheard of.

• 55:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  Um.

• 55:05Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Can I tell you my thesis or my, my, um, hypothesis?

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Tell me.

• 55:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Is I actually think that brands are going to be funding a lot of the unscripted shows.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  They are.

• 55:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah. But I'm like, so are you familiar with that brand Built?

• 55:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 55:19Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So they did that like roomies, roomies, roomies series and then in style that the like intern on social media, I feel like JVN Hair is gonna do like an unscripted thing.

• 55:27Speaker 03

  Yes, I love that.

• 55:29Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah. Like I just feel like, cause realistically the consumer, at least of JVN Hair, like they wanna see you using the products. Like, how do I fix my hair like this? And how do I do this? And how do that? And like, it's not just about that. And that's what I realized about my show was like, yes, we could be an everyday like founder podcast, right? Where you just talk about the brand, but that is so not real life. Like your life is existing at the same time you're building a brand. And so I wanted to create a space where it's like, you learn about the, who the person is as they're building the brand, as much as you're actually learning. Learning a tip or a trick. And I think that's so true with where content is going is like, people want that longer form of the brands that they're obsessed with because you've created this world of JVN. What are the three words that you would describe JVN hair as actually?

• 56:14Speaker 03

  Oh, expressive.

• 56:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  Inclusive and maybe it's like celeb. No, expressive, inclusive. I think people like throw around like, like the word holistic. So that's what I mean when I say that it's kind of a fundamentally different way of approaching your hair. If I had to do packaging again, I was really in like my row phase and I still am in my row phase.

• 56:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Like the row?

• 56:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, okay.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  I'll never like fall out of love with Mary-Kate and Ashley. Like they've just had me in like a stranglehold since I was like two and like I think about that part and um, it takes two and she was like chopping. Like I just loved them so much. I can't get over how much, you know that part, right?

• 56:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Um, so that's why all these are beige. Cause I was just.

• 56:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  From the row?

• 56:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. I was like, to me, when I think of like expensive luxury, I think the row, I think beige, I need timeless, I need classic. I would make these like brighter and cuter now. Um, and if you notice like our line has evolved like brighter and cuter.

• 57:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  So if I had that to do over, I would totally do that again. I just was like, I was like, everything needs to be beige and timeless. And then I realized that in Sephora, it ended up looking like a fucking locker room stall and because everything was beige. And I was like, oh, but because we're just, but we're sustainable girls around here. So we're selling through all of that. Okay? We're not just like taking our stuff and dumping it out, which is what a lot of other brands do. We're selling through our stuff because really I did not want a bunch of like shit at TJ Maxx or floating at the bottom of an ocean. Because like, I was like, oh, that color could be cuter, but it's the same formula. And there's so much waste. It's, it's for a reason. We're trying to like not be wasteful.

• 57:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  It's crazy though, because I as a millennial, like I love beige and I feel like every brand actually tried to be like Gen Z and like these big bright colors because that's what we thought Gen Z wanted. But like.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  Do you think they'll come back to beige?

• 57:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I do.

• 57:56Speaker 03

  I love beige. I, I still love it. I still love it more than anything.

• 57:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I actually think.

• 58:00Speaker 03

  You know what I also love is pastel tie dye.

• 58:02Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Same. Same.

• 58:03Speaker 03

  So I'm like, do we just go like?

• 58:05Maggie Sellers Reum?

  A little.

• 58:06Speaker 03

  But then it's gonna look like a camica and I can't do that.

• 58:08Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I gotta say, if you went like, super bright, I don't feel like it would be like.

• 58:13Speaker 03

  It's not us. But can I tell you that in like, it was like, I think it was 2023. And me and T were like, ah, you know, it's such a hot color. And we were like, butter yellow. And then we were like, that's because that's when we decided to do our dry shampoo and like, our styling line, like, expanding into more of like a buttery yellow. So like, it's still like, supple and like, refined. Because if you notice, when the row branches into color, they'll do yellows and limes. Um, so it's like, we can, if the row doesn't do it, then I don't want to do it. If they've never done it, then I'm like, I can't do that color. That's kind of like a barometer for me.

• 58:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Is your dream collaboration with JBN Hair, the row?

• 58:47Speaker 03

  Um, it's not because I think I would die. And so for the health of like, the brand and everything, I just, like, I don't want us to have like, a dead founder, you know?

• 58:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So who is your dream collaboration with JBN Hair?

• 59:00Speaker 03

  Well, I, I, I would be so fun to do Mary Kate and Ashley. But I just, I really do think I would fucking die. Like, I think I would just like, drop the fuck dead. But can I just say, they would both be so good for air dry cream.

• 59:11Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so we're gonna get them on.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  They really would. Oh my God, I think Mark Townsend still does their hair. And I used to assist for him when I was at Sally Herschberger. And he would come to LA when, because he really worked in New York. So he's like, wash his clients and touch some marker. You remember me? I got you good coffee.

• 59:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so if Mark ever can't do their hair, you're filling in for Mary Kate and Ashley.

• 59:27Speaker 03

  I don't know, I really do think I die. They can use my products.

• 59:29Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, who is the person you fangirled over using JBN Hair?

• 59:34Speaker 04

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from the start.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Film for IMAX.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 59:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Somebody asked me how I'd define myself. And I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 1:00:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Because identity is not a performance, it's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself.

• 1:00:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  That's the paradox. Paradox intense and the new sweet chemistry by Prada.

• 1:00:20Speaker 06

  Hey, listen. Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure. Now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet.

• 1:00:34Speaker 06

  And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built in microphone.

• 1:00:42Speaker 06

  The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  There's one really famous person who I can't say, but [BLEEP]. So she was like really cool. I was like, oh my God.

• 1:00:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, which product does she use?

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  She uses our nurture mask.

• 1:00:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Is there a celeb that you really want to use JVN hair that hasn't yet, other than the Olsen twins?

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  I mean, I'm so down with anyone using like, I'm, you know, I'm kind of Dolly Parton in that sense. Like I'm agnostic. The person who I've always wanted to use my products and like my biggest celebrity like dream, like did, and she ruined me for this question. And so now it's like the inaugural part of every podcast where I get to talk about Michelle Kwan. Who is the most decorated American figure skater of all time. And actually I literally tested instant recovery serum on her hair when I was formulating it. I blew her hair out with all of our products and yeah, she was one of the first people that I did IRS on. It was in Philadelphia. I met her there to test it on her. She's been a huge supporter of our brand from the jump and I love her so much. And I can't believe that she wanted to be my friend because she came on Queer Eye season three.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  So like, she really did kind of ruin me for like meeting your heroes because I met my hero. I know, but it's like no one ever can like live up to that. Like she was, she like for most people, if it was like your Beyonce or you're like, you're Adele or like, it was always Michelle Kwan. I've only ever been talking about Michelle Kwan. When I wrote over the top, my first book, my editor was like, girl, you have a problem. I think you referred to her like 222 times. Like it needs to, you gotta bring it back down to earth. Like 10 times or something.

• 1:02:09Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh my God.

• 1:02:10Speaker 03

  To me, compromise on like 80. She just really got to me. My like, my young queer trauma. Like she was like my beacon of light and hope. And she never stopped. And now she's like my friend and she uses my products. So I just.

• 1:02:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh my God. This is the best to see this evolution for you. I am so happy.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  Oh my God.

• 1:02:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. I can't have you on the show and not ask you about my transformation I need to do. Looking at me, what is one thing that you think that I should evolve?

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  Well, one thing I've been thinking this whole time is I love your cheek color. What is that blush?

• 1:02:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, it's COSAS. Life is something.

• 1:02:44Speaker 03

  Can I tell you something else?

• 1:02:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:45Speaker 03

  So Alex Kinsani said on TikTok that we're never putting anything on our temples because it snatches you back. So ever since then, I've been militant about not putting any blush.

• 1:02:54Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, if you put blush here, it snatches you back?

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  No, she said if you don't put anything there, it snatches you back. So she was like, I never put any makeup right here because it snatches. But I've just been looking, but now I feel like she's wrong because this blush that you have, because I can feel like your blush placement, you put it up here. And now all I want to do is like take blush and like put it up here. Cause I feel like this that you're giving me this whole time. I can't believe that I didn't stop the conversation to talk about that until now. Cause it was, in fact, you know, those times I was like losing my train of thought.

• 1:03:19Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You're looking at the blush.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  This entire time.

• 1:03:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Cause I saw this Instagram video that was like.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  So pretty.

• 1:03:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Is it? Okay.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Okay. Well, do you want, okay, let's talk about your hair.

• 1:03:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  I can see that your natural color is lighter than your brown.

• 1:03:31Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Speaker 03

  And I just always feel for people that go darker than their natural color because it's like really annoying to like, I almost feel like that's like a more annoying route than when you're, when it's dark and it's lighter down here, it's like more forgiving.

• 1:03:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. This is a line.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  It, yeah. And so I think one thing that you could do is, I love you brunette. I think you're so pretty. Like no notes. I just like hate lines of demarcation and I hate having to deal with them.

• 1:03:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:03:56Speaker 03

  I think it's expensive and it's time consuming. So what I've been doing with a lot of my clients is switching them from permanent color to semi-permanent color.

• 1:04:02Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  Cause it has a softer grow out. And then that way, as you wash your hair, it like schluffs off over the next like 30 to 40 washes. So it won't be totally your virgin color, but it's, you see your hair color start to come out. I, I like to compare it to the difference between like pantyhose and tights.

• 1:04:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:04:18Speaker 03

  Permanent is tights, semi-permanent is pantyhose.

• 1:04:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:04:22Speaker 03

  So that I would talk to your colorist about evolving to a semi-permanent base instead of a permanent base.

• 1:04:27Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. One other question. Do you see these hairs right here?

• 1:04:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:04:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  How they separate? Should I laser this? So it's not disjointed?

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  As someone who is living on borrowed time for my hairline, because everyone in my family is like bald and I don't know how, I still have hair at 38. I could never advocate for someone lasering hair off their head. It just feels.

• 1:04:49Maggie Sellers Reum?

  But look at this.

• 1:04:50Speaker 03

  Can we transplant it? Can I come with you? Can we transplant into my hairline? Nice hair.

• 1:04:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  But what, but it's like detached.

• 1:04:57Speaker 03

  I love that. Spray some dry shampoo on it.

• 1:04:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, really?

• 1:05:00Speaker 03

  Spray some dry shampoo on it right now.

• 1:05:01Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Right now. Okay.

• 1:05:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, with love. I didn't mean to be so nasty. But I think that might like join your friends with your other friends.

• 1:05:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So do I lift up my hair and do this? Do I have to press it down?

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, you got it. Oh my, I always feel like Lee Lightly when she was on her press tour when I do this to people.

• 1:05:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh my god, Jay, the end just did my hair. I think I met my celebrity crush in real life.

• 1:05:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What do we think?

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  I just, you have great hair.

• 1:05:24Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Thank you, but the hairline is a problem.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  It's not a problem. You know, I almost wonder as if it...

• 1:05:30Maggie Sellers Reum?

  It's a mystery.

• 1:05:32Speaker 03

  Well, I think that it might want to live on the other side.

• 1:05:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And so I'd need to change my part?

• 1:05:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you can only do that when it's like wet.

• 1:05:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:05:39Speaker 03

  When it's like dry, it doesn't want to do that. But I did fluff it up and blend it in.

• 1:05:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so I mean, I feel like...

• 1:05:44Speaker 03

  I am sweating through my shirt so bad. You, the start off of this interview had me so fucking nervous.

• 1:05:48Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So do you feel like a little, like, was it cathartic to talk to the person that made that video a little bit?

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  It was more fun.

• 1:05:55Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:05:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And I do really want you to know that like, it came from a place of not trying to tear it down by being like...

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  Can I tell you the only part that really hurt my feelings I really didn't like?

• 1:06:05Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Speaker 03

  It's talking about my team, girl, because my endorsement say, I've known those kids as...

• 1:06:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I was meant for the business manager, like the person who like really like...

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  The next time you do a video like that, be more specific.

• 1:06:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Because they're such a big team and then they're like, oh my god, and then they're like, oh my god, do we fuck it up? And like, are you mad? And because like that video went far and wide, so my team, you had them shaking in their boots. And they got mouths to feed.

• 1:06:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And can I say, like, the thing about me is...

• 1:06:31Speaker 03

  That you're Canadian and you guys just really are direct, but you're really nice.

• 1:06:34Maggie Sellers Reum?

  And also like, I'm sorry, like, if it like hurt you...

• 1:06:37Speaker 03

  Do not apologize. Anything would have hurt me. Looking at me at the wrong way would have hurt me in that time. I was very sensitive.

• 1:06:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I know, but I just want you to know from a place of like, I made it because I am such a fan of what you've built and I was like so confused and sad. Yeah, like I, if you re-watch it, which I did a bunch leading up into this interview, I don't feel like I came at it from a place of like, oh my god, this is so embarrassing. It was like, what happened? Like, this is crazy. And I really just feel like what you've done with this brand and like, everything that you've gone through is probably the most impressive turnaround like I have ever seen. I think you are going to be so incredibly successful. I actually need you to message me if you're ever... Raising money, like I would love to invest.

• 1:07:22Speaker 03

  Call bail.

• 1:07:23Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, like if you guys raise money, like please, like I, please call me. And I'm just so impressed. I'm so grateful you came on and.

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  I could tell when you made that video that there was like care and love in there and like I really could. And you were so complimentary in it and like, like, and I just was, it's embarrassing.

• 1:07:40Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Like it's not.

• 1:07:41Speaker 03

  Well, no, sometimes having a flop is embarrassing.

• 1:07:44Maggie Sellers Reum?

  But that's, I think, what I love about people like you who like climb so high. And the higher that you climb, it's so much harder to put yourself out there because you do risk failing. And I'm nowhere near you now, but like the podcast today that we're recording is the number 33 in the world. And so like I get afraid to try new things or like have longer episodes or like do different things. Cause I'm like, oh, we have a formula. It's working, but that's actually what will kill businesses is when you stop experimenting and you stop trying. So I feel like everyone just needs a little JVN in their life. So what day is your podcast out that people should be listening to?

• 1:08:14Speaker 03

  We do Wednesdays is getting better.

• 1:08:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  And that's where they're just getting better at doing things.

• 1:08:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  It could be getting better at like work, life balance or money or like understanding a topic that I'm confused by. Like I'm doing one on like, um, understanding belonging better and like being better handling rejection. So it's like two that I'm excited for. I just did one on singing better. And then Mondays are our Monday edit where that's me and our senior producer. And we're talking about like the BT, like the BTS of the pod, the news, we do our hot bitch of the week.

• 1:08:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Love it.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  My hot bitch of the week right now, or last week was like the shit, like the shadow side of the street. Cause like it's just so much cooler.

• 1:08:49Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, love that.

• 1:08:51Speaker 03

  You know, so it's never really a person. It's usually like a thing.

• 1:08:53Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:08:53Speaker 03

  And then it's like the Jonathan Van news desk. It's like the things that we're following is fun. So I love the Monday edit. We got a little joy there. If you've followed my career for a long time, my first like foray on camera was this thing called gay of thrones.

• 1:09:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 1:09:06Speaker 03

  So I feel like the Monday edit is giving like my gay of thrones energy. So it's a little more light, a little bit more fun. Used to be more beauty based on Mondays. We did pretty curious and then the audience was like, girl, we don't want to hear about that anymore.

• 1:09:16Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  We want.

• 1:09:17Maggie Sellers Reum?

  The audience is always right.

• 1:09:18Speaker 03

  Yes. So now we kind of evolved it. And so that's Mondays and Wednesdays and I have so much fun doing it.

• 1:09:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Can I ask you a few rapid fires before we leave? I'm like literally obsessed with you. It's a problem. Um, don't give me your phone number because I'm going to text you all the time.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  No, please. I want to give a cheat. I have to snatch the polo button. I want to be friends.

• 1:09:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Yeah, me too. Okay. You can only pick one for the rest of your life. Okay.

• 1:09:37Speaker 03

  HIV medicine.

• 1:09:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Reality TV or stand up comedy?

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  Stand up comedy.

• 1:09:42Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. You're dancing coffee every day?

• 1:09:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:45Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Or solid core?

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  Solid core.

• 1:09:48Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Do you still do your dancing coffee though?

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  I do.

• 1:09:49Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Ooh, you can only have one. You have to sell the rest. Kelly's or Birkins?

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  Sell the Kelly's, even though they don't resell as well.

• 1:09:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:09:58Speaker 03

  But I like Birkins better.

• 1:09:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Dry shampoo or fresh blowout?

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  If I'm doing it for myself, dry shampoo, because like if I just blew that thing out, like I don't have to do it again. So for myself, dry shampoo. But if it's like me refreshing my own blow dry or like going to get a fresh blow dry, then I would like much rather have a fresh blow dry.

• 1:10:14Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Heels or flats?

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  Flats.

• 1:10:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, really?

• 1:10:20Speaker 03

  Me and my stylist are really at a thrill right now, because she keeps trying to put me in stilettos all the time. And I'm like, I'm almost 40 and I can feel my bunions like fucking beating in my third eye. If it's not a platformer wedge, I can't handle it.

• 1:10:31Maggie Sellers Reum?

  So Javion on this podcast realized he has two buttholes and three eyes.

• 1:10:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:35Maggie Sellers Reum?

  What is the most overrated hair trend right now?

• 1:10:38Speaker 03

  I have like a, I have, even when they were like big the first time in 2006 to 11, I like fucking hate tinsel strand.

• 1:10:46Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, I don't know what that is.

• 1:10:47Speaker 03

  Because I've seen these fucking tinsel strands in everybody's fucking hair again.

• 1:10:50Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so that's a no.

• 1:10:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, like what next? The fucking feathers?

• 1:10:52Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay. Oh my God, I did that at a music festival and it was just like.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  Like recently?

• 1:10:57Maggie Sellers Reum?

  No, this was like.

• 1:11:00Speaker 03

  It's coming back.

• 1:11:02Maggie Sellers Reum?

  No, like Burning Man needs to stay in Burning Man.

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  Girl, I just, I don't like these like accoutrement in the hair.

• 1:11:07Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Who has one celebrity hair that you would love to fix?

• 1:11:10Speaker 03

  Okay, I don't want to get canceled.

• 1:11:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  You won't.

• 1:11:13Speaker 03

  But, and it's not, like, it's sheer, sheer curiosity. Because I, I am really good at like, understanding how hair moves. Like as a hairdresser in hair school, we're taught like to break down and updo. Like where is this hair coming from? Like how would you have formed this? Like you have to like guess based off of a picture what's happening. I cannot figure out what's going on with Donald Trump's hair. Like I don't know where anything is coming from. I don't know where it starts. I don't know where it stops. I don't want to do it. I don't want to fix it. I don't want to be in the same fucking room with him. Like, and there's not enough body conditioner or shampoo and like that Blake Lively volumizing Blake Brown foam. There is not enough, there's not enough. It's not, I, I don't want to do it. But I am like a little curious.

• 1:11:56Speaker 03

  Like from afar, if I could be like a fly on the wall to see. His hairdresser.

• 1:12:02Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Style his hair.

• 1:12:02Speaker 03

  Do that. Because like, where is it starting? Where is it stopping? Like, what in the flat wrap is going on here? I don't understand what the fuck is going on with that fucking hair. Who's someone whose hair, like, I wanted to? I don't know, I just feel like celebrities have, like, such good hair. Like, I don't have notes for most of them.

• 1:12:19Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  Like, most of them have, like, really good hair.

• 1:12:21Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Huh.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  You know who was so sweet that I got to do a scene with once? Helen Mirren, and she does not-

• 1:12:26Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, I don't know who that is.

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:12:28Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, like, give me a hint.

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  Helen Mirren, she's, like, iconic. She was, like, in, like, what has Helen Mirren not been in?

• 1:12:37Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay.

• 1:12:39Speaker 03

  Um, I got to do a scene with her in, like, Sarah Cooper's, like, Netflix special where Sarah Cooper was like that comedian who, like, lip syncs Donald Trump. And then she did this special on Netflix. And I had to play the reporter who Trump and Billy Bush are talking about.

• 1:12:51Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:12:52Speaker 03

  And Helen Mirren was Billy Bush.

• 1:12:54Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:12:55Speaker 03

  Or Bobby Bush, or whatever the fuck his name was. And then Sarah Cooper was Donald Trump. And so I had to, like, do a scene with Helen Mirren, which was like, I still can't believe, like, in hindsight, that I, like, was on camera with Helen fucking Mirren. Um, and she has gray hair, she doesn't need anything done with her hair. She's just so cool. I think about this, like, I think it was, like, Paris Fashion Week. I can't remember who she was walking for. It could have been Vivian Westwood. But she was walking the show and she lifts up her dress and she's barefoot and she just starts, like, running, like, down the runway, like, at full-

• 1:13:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, that's so cool.

• 1:13:21Speaker 03

  It gives me the chills thinking about it. So much so that I'm like, is my official coming back? Do I have COVID? Like, I just, like, I don't really either. Those things, I'm just saying, the thought of her doing this run was like, she's just a bad bitch. Like, Helen Mirren is so cool.

• 1:13:32Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, so you wanted to do her hair?

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, manifesting that for you. Last one, do you mute or unfollow people?

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  I unfollow.

• 1:13:39Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I like that.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  If you're dead to me and you've absolutely, like, unfixable damage, I unfollow. Except for this one girl who I was drunk, that was one of my really good friends, who I just unfollowed because she hurt my feelings. So if you're watching this, Monique- That's why I unfollowed you, but I it's not because I you're dead to me.

• 1:13:56Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Will you will you follow her back if she apologizes? Do you hold grudges?

• 1:14:00Speaker 03

  Um, yeah, I'm working on it.

• 1:14:03Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, what's your birthday?

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  March 28th, I'm in Aries.

• 1:14:06Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Oh, but I feel like they're not.

• 1:14:07Speaker 03

  Although this identity expert on the Today Show said that we shouldn't tell people our birthdays anymore, but I feel like mine's so publicized, like, what do I care?

• 1:14:12Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, also, I just read something, I think it was in the New York Times, that actually, like, our horoscopes are very off from when, like, I need to find this article for you and send it to you. I don't want to butcher it, but basically, like, the stars shifted so much that, like, when you actually search your birthday, it's an interactive article in the New York Times. I actually have, like, identified as a Gemini my whole life. Apparently, based on what the stars were when I was born, I'm actually a Taurus.

• 1:14:37Speaker 03

  Are you trans zodiac?

• 1:14:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Well, I think that everybody is.

• 1:14:40Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, we're all like trans zodiac. Oh, my God.

• 1:14:43Maggie Sellers Reum?

  JVN, I think you were probably in my favorite interview. I'm dead serious about wanting to invest in your brand if you ever raise money. I'm so impressed with you. I'm so grateful you came on and shared your story, and thank you so much for doing this.

• 1:14:56Speaker 03

  Thank you, and I'm so excited for your success and come on, like, top podcast queen.

• 1:14:59Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Thank you.

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Yes, I'd love to have you on mine sometime.

• 1:15:01Maggie Sellers Reum?

  I was like, where can people find you?

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  I'm the most active on Instagram and TikTok. I'm at JVN on Instagram and I'm at JVN underscore official on TikTok because someone got my fucking name on TikTok.

• 1:15:10Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Wait, who has it?

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  I don't know, some boy whose name is JVN, but he seems really nice and he's, like, young, and so that's nice for him.

• 1:15:15Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Have you ever asked, can I buy your name?

• 1:15:17Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:15:18Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:15:19Speaker 03

  I don't want to.

• 1:15:20Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay.

• 1:15:20Speaker 03

  I'm just gonna have my little JVN official.

• 1:15:22Maggie Sellers Reum?

  Okay, well, we can find you on JVN and JVN official, and thank you so much for coming on.

• 1:15:26Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:15:38Maggie Sellers Reum?

  If you're starting a business, there are certain things that are so fun to think about. Y'all know I love a mood board, so everything that relates to the creative, the name, the brand, the website, the vision board. But then there are the things that make you pause and ask, am I even doing this correctly? Or do I even want to be doing this? Like forming your business, getting the right documents, keeping your personal information private. This is where our sponsor, Northwest Registered Agent, is so helpful.

• 1:16:04Maggie Sellers Reum?

  They're a one-stop shop for founders who want to launch and legitimize their business without turning it into a giant admin spiral. They help you form an LLC or a corporation, act as your registered agent, and give you tools like a business address, operating agreement, website, phone number, professional email, and free guides. They also have real corporate guides who know your local laws. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com/hsrfree and start using free resources to build something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com/hsrfree.

• 1:16:41Speaker 04

  Welcome to the 50th Hunger Games.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Witness the beginning of the revolution.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Hey Mitch, you've been trying to take down these games from Star.

• 1:16:48Speaker 01

  Filmed for IMAX.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  Make them remember you.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  The Hunger Games: Sunrise on the Reaping, November 20th, rated PG-13.

• 1:16:58Speaker 05

  Somebody asked me how I'd define myself, and I didn't know what to say. Because how can someone be defined when we're always evolving? I've been so many things. I'll be so many others.

• 1:17:14Speaker 05

  Because identity's not a performance, it's an exploration. Never the same, but always myself. That's the paradox. Paradox Intense and The New Sweet Chemistry by Prada.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  Hey, listen! Power up your play with Nintendo Switch 2 and experience Link's legendary adventure, now reborn in vibrant detail on our fastest and most powerful system yet. And harness the power of the Ocarina with the built-in microphone.

• 1:17:49Speaker 06

  The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a Nintendo Switch 2 exclusive. Game and system sold separately. Game rated everyone 10 and up.