Scott Thompson on Epictetus and Approaching Life with Laughter

Ryan talks to Scott Thompson about his introduction to Stoicism after hearing Ryan on the Breakfast Club, the humor that he finds in the teaching of Epictetus, the striking similarities between tragedy and triumph, and more. Scott Thompson is a Canadian born comedian and actor. He is best known for being a member of the comedy troupe The Kids in the Hall and for playing Brian on The Larry Sanders Show. At an early age, Scott found comedy as his way of coping with and overcoming the traumatic events he experienced throughout his life. In high school, Scott was a witness to the 1975 Centennial Secondary School shooting and subsequently developed PTSD at a time when therapy and mental illness was considered taboo. He came out as gay during the AIDS epidemic. In 2009, Scott was diagnosed with cancer and underwent several rounds of chemotherapy. He is no stranger to enduring and embracing hardships and truly embodies “amor fati.”The Jordan Harbinger Show is one of the most interesting podcasts on the web, with guests like Kobe Bryant, Mark Manson, Eric Schmidt, and more. Listen to one of Ryan's episodes right now (1, 2), and subscribe to the Jordan Harbinger Show today. Ten Thousand makes the highest quality, best-fitting, and most comfortable training shorts I have ever worn. They are a direct-to-consumer company, no middleman so you get premium fabrics, trims, and techniques that other brands simply cannot afford. Ten Thousand is offering our listeners 15% off your purchase. go to Tenthousand.cc and enter code STOIC to receive 15% off your purchase. Kion Aminos is backed by over 20 years of clinical research, has the highest quality ingredients, no fillers or junk, undergoes rigorous quality testing, and tastes amazing with all-natural flavors. Go to getkion.com/dailystoic to save 20% on subscriptions and 10% on one-time purchases. Talkspace is an online and mobile therapy company. Visit talkspace.com and get $100 off your first month when you use promo code STOIC at sign-up. That’s $100 off at talkspace.com, promo code STOIC. As a member of Daily Stoic Life, you get all our current and future courses, 100+ additional Daily Stoic email meditations, 4 live Q&As with bestselling author Ryan Holiday (and guests), and 10% off your next purchase from the Daily Stoic Store. Sign up at https://dailystoic.com/life/ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more. Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:46Ryan Holiday?

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:55Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. I am just packing up my stuff right now. I'm heading to Ole Miss tomorrow to give a talk to the football team there. Lane Kiffin has been a supporter and booster of the books over the years. He read "Ego is the Enemy," and it resonated with him. He's been an awesome supporter. So it's always cool for me to go talk to people who are great at what they do. And I'm looking forward to talking to people in this program. I've got a flight to Dallas, and then Dallas to Memphis, and then drive from Memphis to Oxford. But I'm hoping to give a good talk, sort of walking through my mental process, packing up the stuff that I need.

• 1:39Ryan Holiday?

  I'm just working on the slides now. I'm excited about that. And you might wonder, like, why I do that? Why do I go give those talks? Why do I do these interviews? Well, I saw a piece... From The New Yorker about a month or so ago. And I'll just, I'll just read it to you. It was by a writer named Ivy Knight and it said, "The comedian Scott Thompson likes to listen to the Breakfast Club podcast while driving in Toronto. One day during the darkest part of the lockdown, the self-help author Ryan Holiday was a guest. The episode was about Stoicism and Thompson's attention was piqued when he heard Holiday quote Epictetus. He remembers it as, 'We all have to die, but do we have to die ballin?'" "That was it for me," Thompson said on a recent Zoom call.

• 2:23Ryan Holiday?

  "It hit me like a shot to the heart. He ordered the Inqueridian Epictetus's Stoic Advice Manual. And when it arrived, he made a cup of tea, sat down with his two cats Rusty and Dusty, and began to read." It's a, it's a lovely piece and, and I've been a fan of Scott Thompson forever. If that name isn't ringing a bell, for whatever reason, just Google him and look at a picture of him and you'll immediately recognize who I'm talking about. At least if you're of my generation or a little bit older. He was one of the stars of Kids in the Hall, the amazing sketch comedy troupe, which I remember watching all the time on Comedy Central. He was on The Carrie Shanling Show. He's been in everything over the years.

• 3:06Ryan Holiday?

  And he's a great actor and a hilarious comedian and also my guest on the podcast today. And that, that encounter, this wonderful conversation we had would have never been possible had I not gone on The Breakfast Club. And when I saw this article, I texted Charlemagne and I just said, "Man, look, look at what you did. You made this happen. You changed, you changed this dude's life by being the intermediary in which I could talk about Stoicism on your platform." So when I go talk to someone somewhere like Ole Miss or when I do these shows, it's because I've, one, it's cool and I love talking about it and it doesn't hurt as far as selling books.

• 3:45Ryan Holiday?

  But I've been amazed at the people who were introduced to Stoicism through these things. I remember I gave a talk a couple of years ago at an accounting firm, a huge publicly traded accounting firm. And the CEO sat down with me and we had a little conversation before and he said, "How did you hear about Stoicism? Why did you want me to come talk?" And he said, "Well, I read an article in Sports Illustrated that said, 'Football teams are reading your book and that's why I wanted to check it out.'" All of which is to say, this was a lovely set of coincidences that brought me full circle with someone that I grew up watching, I thought was hilarious. And we have a super deep dive into Stoicism, like, one of the best conversations I've ever really had about Stoicism, I think, I had with Scott. He was just so earnest and

• 4:28Ryan Holiday?

  fun and into it. And it was lovely. And I'm just really excited to share this conversation with you. He's got an amazing story. You can follow Scott on Twitter, @scottthompson underscore. And he's also working on this sort of short film about Stoicism that I saw a preview of. So stay tuned for that. Enjoy. I think you're gonna love Scott as much as I did. And of course, he's a pro and a showbiz vet, and he knows, he knows how to, he knows how to connect. And he just absolutely does it in this episode. And I can't wait to share. Where are you based?

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Uh, right now, I'm in Toronto.

• 5:05Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, okay. Nice.

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Where are you?

• 5:08Ryan Holiday?

  I live right outside Austin, Texas.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Oh, we were just there.

• 5:12Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, you were?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yes, we were there for South by Southwest.

• 5:15Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, I wish I'd known. We should have linked up.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Yes, we, uh, the Kids in the Hall documentary was screened.

• 5:21Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, that's so funny.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we did some stand up for the first time in quite a while. And we did some Q and As and, uh, you know, we went on stage. It was really great.

• 5:32Ryan Holiday?

  I was telling you, I grew up as sort of a latchkey kid. So I spent a lot of time watching Kids in the Hall. The reruns were on Comedy Central when I was a kid. And I would come home and watch it. And my parents had no idea. But I, I just, it's sort of seared in my memory from like, a chunk in my childhood is just sort of always being on.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Wow. Are you from Texas?

• 5:54Ryan Holiday?

  No, I'm from California.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Okay.

• 5:57Ryan Holiday?

  There's this, there's a sketch, I was trying to, I don't know if you're in it, but it's my favorite Kids in the Hall sketch. I was trying to find it. I wanted to show it to my, my kids. I think they're just old enough to get it now. But there's, it's like, uh, it's like in a waiting room for a doctor's office.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:13Ryan Holiday?

  And he sits down, is it you? You sit down on the couch and it makes a farting sound?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  No, is this the one where I'm in a waiting, there's one that there's no real words. I don't speak.

• 6:24Ryan Holiday?

  Okay.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  I just imitate everybody?

• 6:26Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, so this one, the person, if it's not you, it's someone, they sit down on the couch and it makes like a farting sound, you know, like when you sit on leather and it makes a sound?

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:35Ryan Holiday?

  And, and, and everyone looks at him and he goes, no, no, no, it wasn't me, it was the couch. And they go like, sure, sure it was. And so then he tries to recreate the sound on the couch to prove that it wasn't him. And he goes to increasingly absurd, much more embarrassing lengths to prove that the couch made the sound and not, and that he didn't fart in front of all these people. And I think about it every time I sit on a couch.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  Now, I guess you don't have squeaky couches then, do you have really soft couches?

• 7:07Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, no, you know what I'm saying? Like anytime you're, you move a, a piece of furniture and it makes that sound. And, uh, you know, it was, uh, it, it's a fact of life.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not, I don't, that's not me, definitely not me. The only fart joke I ever made in the kids in the hall was the one where the queen, because it's a common family and she farts. And that's the only fart joke I've ever made in my life. Cause I, I thought, Billy, I'm only gonna make one fart joke and that's gonna be about the Queen of England having a fart.

• 7:36Ryan Holiday?

  That's a pretty good one.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  It felt like a good one, cause I thought, you know, I'm just gonna do it, cause it's the furthest fall from grace, um, you know, though it makes bigger comedy for this, um, when someone falls the furthest, you know what I mean? Like in terms of power? It's like mathematical, it always makes the biggest charge.

• 7:52Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's kind of a stoic idea too, like how, how that, that we're all equal at that level, right?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 8:00Ryan Holiday?

  And, and yet our mortification is higher because we're somehow expected to not do those things. I think there's an Epictetus line about like, imagine, like imagine the Queen having sex, how it's, it's weirdly takes them down to size a bit.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yes, like, so if it's like, uh, like if you have someone like, let's say who has very low status, like I'd say a homeless person ranting and raving, they fart, that's not really funny. It's sad.

• 8:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  If it's the Queen of England and she's like doing a prominent, you know, a walkabout and she's celebrating something and she farts, it's hilarious.

• 8:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and it's also funny because all the people around her would would have to deliberately not notice and pretend that it didn't happen. And so the the pretext.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  And of course, if it's someone that's low status, everybody is allowed to mock them and ridicule them.

• 8:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  And and then it becomes sad and tragic and not funny. And there's such a small, you know, very thin line between those two things.

• 8:53Ryan Holiday?

  When what's more humiliating farting or being the person who by nature of their job has to pretend that they didn't smell a fart, right? Like, there's this great, there's this great thing that comes to us from Epictetus, who I want to get into because I know he's your guy.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Oh, he's my guy, yeah.

• 9:09Ryan Holiday?

  Epictetus works in Nero's Palace, right? He's his boss is Nero's secretary.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:16Ryan Holiday?

  And he tells us this story about basically somebody sucking up to Nero's cobbler to make, you know, and I just, I love the humiliation, the self-imposed humiliation.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:28Ryan Holiday?

  Of like sucking up to a guy who makes shoes for the emperor because because because it's good for your job. So no matter how powerful you are, you're like, oh, man, I love your shoes. Really, you know, I love I love the image of that so much.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  I do, too. That's the reason I I fell in love with Epictetus is because he was funny. I never found anyone funny like that.

• 9:52Ryan Holiday?

  I want to I want to talk about the Stoics in humor, too. My my to go to your queen thing, though, one thing I also think about all the time is on comedians in cars, Jerry Seinfeld and Brian Regan were talking about, you know, um, you know, uh, when you go into someone's bathroom, they're like, oh, you got to jiggle the handle a little bit. It runs, you know, the the thing. And Brian Regan asks, who do you think the most powerful person in the world that's been told that is? And so he imagines like the queen asking to use your bathroom and then having to say like, you got to jiggle.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  In everything, really.

• 10:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 10:31Ryan Holiday?

  This is the idea that at the end of the day, we're all equal before the running toilet or airport security or weather delays, or you know, that that it all cuts us down to size.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Well, that's what I love about comedy is that it it's the most democratic art form. It democratizes everybody. It brings everybody down to the same level and it and it lets us all realize that we're all basically doing the same thing. We're all pretty much the same. We're all pretty much trying to find the right, the same stuff.

• 10:58Ryan Holiday?

  And unless you can get away with slapping the comedian in the face on national television, right?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Well, then, of course, we know that fame and power trump everything. That's for sure. I also know that I don't have to weigh in on this controversy. The whole time I'm looking at that going, oh, God, do I have to weigh in? And then I read this quote by Marcus Aurelius, which is that you don't have to weigh in on anything. I don't know if that's what he said, but I thought, and that hit me and I went, I don't, no one needs to know until I've really thought it out.

• 11:29Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you don't need to have an opinion. I think that's one, that's, that's one way. Although sometimes I feel like people in the Stoicism community misunderstand that to mean that if you have an opinion about something, you're somehow not being Stoic, right? So I think the idea is if the opinion is causing you distress, you're doing something wrong. If you're laughing at it because it's absurd, or it's teaching you something, or it's part of your job to have an opinion about it.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. That's the tricky thing with a comedian, especially a comedian like me, is that is my job.

• 12:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  To react. And my, my job is to see all these things that are happening in culture and to have an opinion on it. But what I've realized is that, yes, that's true, but I don't have to have it immediately.

• 12:15Ryan Holiday?

  You don't have to have it immediately, and it shouldn't make you miserable, whatever the opinion is. So like-

• 12:20Speaker 01

  That's what it was. Yeah. That's the quote, because I kept going, it's making me miserable. I'm just agonizing over what's actually happening, what actually did happen that night, and what it was really about. And I was agonizing about like, what do I say? I go, I don't need to until I've completely thought it through. And then I can write it out, but I don't need to like react. I don't, I don't have to go in hot.

• 12:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, and most of the things that you end up regretting as an artist, a person, a creator, comedian, or whatever, are the snap judgments that you made, that you expressed before you had a chance to see how it would play out, or what you really thought. And now it's on Twitter on the record forever.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so that's where I'm at right now, just thinking it through, knowing, knowing that there are so many things that are going on. And there was so much going on that night, that I'm still not quite there in terms of making it funny.

• 13:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Because now I really just see tragedy.

• 13:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, that is the other part. As you get more empathetic and understanding, a lot of the things that would have previously pissed you off, or previously, you know, taken you down a rabbit hole, you can see that like, a hurt person is doing that.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  That's right. And I know, I mean, you know, I know what my real beliefs are about what happened. And right now, if I told you them, it would be, I would be in trouble. And so I will only say that when I have it formulated completely correctly and hilariously, so that if I do get into trouble, it's the trouble that I want to get into, not because I went in on it hot.

• 13:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, I love that.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  I understand some things that, there are things that I think about, where I go, I don't think anybody else is really thinking this part. But I, I, I'm not quite ready.

• 14:09Ryan Holiday?

  So let's go back to your introduction to Stoicism. Obviously, I know the story, but, but walk me through how you get, how you get introduced to Stoicism.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Well, it was at the very beginning of the pandemic, and I was alone. And I would go out to my car, and I would just park place, different places in the city, and just listen to, you know, radio and stuff. And I was listening to The Breakfast Club. And I think it was you, it was you that was on, right? And you were talking about Epictetus and I was, I was already parked and I heard it and, and, and you said, um, we all have to, um, die, but do we have to die bawling? And that just hit me like, like a, like a slap to the face on a, on an Oscar broadcast.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Like this, it almost brought me to my knees and it luckily it didn't because I was driving and I'm not very good driving on my knees. I know that thing's better on my knees, but certainly not driving. And I just thought, I gotta hear the rest of this and I just listened to it and I thought, wow, that, that's me. It's like, I don't, I'm, my whole life has been, I react to everything and everybody is just loves to watch me react. And it's also part of my comedy and I think it's what makes me a good comedian because I do react instantly. But I thought, I'm tired of being jerked around by my emotions. Like I, my emotions have always been, they've been my, I don't know how to explain it. Like, um, they've led me.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  I've never, I've never been in control of them. Sure. And I've, and then maybe as a child I fell in love with the whole idea of like tragedy and, and, and recovering from violence and recovering from, um, trauma. And I just thought, enough already. I, I don't, yeah, I'm gonna, we're all gonna die and I wanna go, when I die, I want to be, I wanna have dignity. I don't know what, why? Cause I, I don't know what, why it hit me so much. I've been trying so hard. I've been doing therapy. I'd, I've been in therapy many times. I've read lots of self-help books, but never anything until that moment really hit. And I think it might've also been because it was from someone from 2,000 years ago. Not you, but you, you're an old soul, I think, but, and I, and it just hit me like, oh,

• 16:29Speaker 01

  I can, this person I can listen to. And, and you were talking about Epictetus, you guys were talking about him and I just thought, who is this person? I need to know this guy is because you're saying that he was a slave and that by the time he got out of actual physical bondage, he was already free in his head. And I thought, that is exactly what I want. I have never been free in my head. I have been in bondage my whole life and to my emotions and I've just let myself be jerked around like a puppet. And I said, enough. And I can still be a good comedian. Um, and I'm, I'm too, I'm at an age where I just go, I need to have control of this.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  I need, I, my, my emotional reaction to things cannot be entertainment any longer.

• 17:18Ryan Holiday?

  You know, what's interesting is, is that I had a similar reaction to Epictetus, who I was introduced to as far as the scope first, although I ended up reading Marcus Verius. But when, when I, when I read it, I was like, how has this been kept from me my whole life? Although I was only 20, but it was like, what do you mean? Like, how is this not, how are these not the people we're talking about all the time? How are these not the sort of secular saints of our world? It's, it, it's like, this is exactly what I needed.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're lucky you found it at such a young age and I, I didn't find it till I was like almost 60. And, uh, I just, and I just thought, I, I hope he sounds like he's funny. And then I started reading at the Anchory and I went, oh, this guy's hilarious. He really made me laugh and then I thought, he can't even read or write. It's just too much and he's lame, you know? And I thought, and I, I kind of fetishized my pain in, over the years, like going, fuck, I suffered so much. Why do I have to go through such fire? And why do I have to have such horrible things happen to me over and over again? And then I just went, well, it has to happen to someone. And, uh, so it might as well be me because I obviously can take it.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  So, and, and I also, there's another thing about it that I'm really odd. Is he talk, something that never, was never part of like modern psychology was he would talk about the gods. And it sounds so old fashioned and ludicrous and silly, but that's what I needed. I needed to have someone that actually believed in God or gods or something spiritual as well. And because nowadays we live in a world where people mock that. You know, we've tried to destroy religion, which is insane. You can't really. And then we've created a new secular religion with all the same tenants of, of religion. Except with one, one thing missing, God, which is just an incredibly stupid thing to do. You recreate religion without God. Okay. That sounds like that's going to work.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  And so that was, that was it for me. And I just started reading that and it was just, everything was a revelation. When I would read him, I would just go, this is the guy for me. This is the one. I was in therapy and I told my therapist I'd fallen in love with a philosopher. And, uh, and that was it, you know, because I thought if this man can find happiness in himself after a life of physical bondage and then to be released and he's lame from being beaten and he can, and he was as happy as when he was in bondage as when he came out. That is the secret of life and I want to know that. And you're right. Like, why does everyone not talk about him?

• 20:00Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's, it's funny that you, you got introduced to Stoicism from The Breakfast Club, like a hip hop morning show. And I got introduced to Stoicism. I was at a conference. You know who Dr. Drew is?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  Of course. I've done his show.

• 20:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, of course. So I, I, when I was in college, I went to a conference that Dr. Drew put on that was sponsored by Trojan condoms. That's where I got introduced to Stoicism, by Dr. Drew at that thing. So you never, you know, you never know where you're gonna find the thing that you're like, that's what I needed the whole time.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I was like in such, it was so difficult. You know, the pandemic was so, it has been very, very difficult for so many of us. And I was alone and the kids in the hall had just started our reboot and I, everything I'd been dreaming up was coming true. I'd been waiting for so long. It's all I ever wanted. 25 years. I'm like, we need to come back. I need, I have so much more to do.

• 20:53Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  And then it happened and then the pandemic hit. And I just thought, oh, man, I cheated again. And, and then I had to have an operation on my hand. So it was, uh, that was it. I go, this is gonna be rough. I live alone. I'm in a lockdown. I mean, Toronto was rough. I mean, this country went really hard on the pandemic. And then there's a lot to unpack there and I'm not quite ready to weigh in on what really happened in Canada. But I just thought if I had to get to get through this, I need something else. And because I had to have an op my my right hand, my hand started falling apart from injuries when I was a child and other things. And so I I couldn't use my hand anymore. I couldn't write.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  And so I had to have an operation. They had to rebuild my wrist. And so I was, you know, I I was alone in a pandemic. Um, and there was a full lockdown, dead of winter, and I only had my non-dominant hand. And I thought for me to get through this, I need something else. And that's when you you were speaking and Epethys came along. And that's when I thought, OK, that's what I need to help me get through these six months with my left hand alone.

• 22:06Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's it's interesting that you responded to that specific quote, which I do love. Because uh, death, it seems like has been a or brushes with death. Do you seem like they've been a theme through your life? I mean, wasn't there? There was a school shooting when you were a kid?

• 22:22Speaker 01

  When I was sixteen, yes.

• 22:24Ryan Holiday?

  What happened?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Well, uh, you know, uh, I don't know how. Well, when I was sixteen years old, a boy behind me that sat behind me in class, kid down the street that I I'd known for a long time. He uh, he came.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  And he killed three and the and um, seventeen people were wounded.

• 22:48Ryan Holiday?

  In Canada?

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. And it was it was a long time ago. And it's a kind of a story that Canadians have kind of buried. Because it was too painful and it was before the whole. It was actually the beginning of the whole school shooting um, phenomenon. But it happened in Canada, so it was kind of ignored. But it was a very pivotal moment in my life. Um, and um, it was my class and I was headed for class and I was late. And um, so.

• 23:14Ryan Holiday?

  You missed it. You missed being.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was literally like he was around the corner. And I was coming up the hall and um, I heard it all begin. And I'd never heard guns before. I don't, I thought it was firecrackers. And then I smelled the gunpowder and then I thought, oh, it's um, it's firecrackers. It's a party. What kind of that sounds like a good party? And then I could smell it and then I I heard screaming and then I saw blood and I thought this is this is this party's gone bad. And then a teacher saved my life. He grabbed me and threw me in a class and I hid there for quite a while. Well, it happened around us and people kept coming in and out. But anyways, you know, it was a, it was a bad thing and I do realize it's true. I've been stalked by death my whole life.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  I mean, we all are, but I had a lot of things happen as a child and um, disease and stuff. You had cancer, right? I had cancer, but I had encephalitis when I was seventeen, the year after the shooting. I I almost died of encephalitis. And um, and I think those things all ha, I think a lot of it was because the shooting kind of planted a kind of a a seed in me, if that makes sense, a psychological, like a, like a wound. That for the rest of my life continued to open and open and open until eventually it flowered into cancer. I think forty, you know, thirty five years later. That's what I believe. And uh, so I just finally just said enough already.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  I I I I I'm here. I'm a survivor. I'm obviously tougher than I ever thought I was. And you know, I'm I'm a gay man too, who went through the AIDS epidemic. So I mean, that I that would have been enough. That would have been enough, you know. So I mean, I was firebombed when I was my first boyfriends. I've had just incredibly wild things happen to me and um, I I think there must be, you know, and I do believe in, I I do believe in God and all that's, I do, I I have. It's kind of embarrassing, I think. Not embar, it used to be embarrassing. Now I just accept it. And I just go, there must be, there must be some reason for me to keep it. It's keep almost dying and then come back better. So I might as well.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  I might as well get it together because it looks like I'm gonna be an old man. And if I'm gonna be an old man, I wanna be a great old man. Right? I don't wanna be a cranky old fuck. I wanna be that old man that everybody wants to be with. I wanna be Gandalf. That's I wanna be Gandalf the White. I wanna go down and I wanna come back up. And I wanna be better.

• 25:50Ryan Holiday?

  Did you have the sense that death was stalking you? Or did these feel like unrelated events? Or was it, or was it more of a, ah, not this again? Like, a- as you kept bumping into these life or death moments, what, how did you feel about them at the time?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  I did feel stalked. I, I do. I, I know that, that sounds kind of arrogant in a way, like, who am I to be stalked by death? Um, you know, my brother committed suicide when I was young. And so I, I just think there must be a reason. I, it just felt like, I need, I guess I felt like my, I needed my sword to be very, very sharp. And so my metal had to be tested over and over and over again until it was the sharpest sword I could have. And then I could wield it with love, if that makes sense.

• 26:34Ryan Holiday?

  It does.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And so I, I didn't wanna be, I didn't, I, I was in such a state of anger for so much of my life. And I always thought that's what drove my comedy, and there is some truth to that. But I, I went, you know what? I don't, I'm gonna be funny no matter what. No matter, even when I try to do something serious, it's always got, it's always funny. So that's, it can't leave me. It just, I, I just, I'm at a stage where it can't, you can't kill it. You can't kill my humor. You can't really kill me right now. And when I do go, I will go quiet. I mean, not quietly. I'm not gonna, like, you know, I'm sure I'll be raging and screaming. But I'm gonna have, my mother would always say to me, you know, have dignity. Her whole thing was dignity, dignity, dignity. And I used to mock her.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  And now that she's gone, I'm like, oh, yeah, mom, I wish you could see me now. I'm gonna try to be like you. I'm gonna try to be dignified.

• 27:26Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it it does make sense then that Seneca or that Epictetus would be your guy, because all the Stoics more or less say the same thing. It's not like they had it easy, but nobody had it quite as hard as Epictetus.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  That's why it had to be the guy that had it the hardest.

• 27:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Like, I just couldn't, you know, like, everyone loves Marcus Aurelius, and he's an incredible human being, but he had a very, a gilded life. So it's difficult to look at Epictetus and go, no, that's the guy. That's the, that's the one that really relates to me. And so, so that's why I, I, I did it. It was just that you're just somehow ready. Sometimes you're just ready for it. And also, I became consumed the last few years, as we all know, has been just such a cauldron as society kind of, as our, our culture kind of unravels. It's kind of unraveling. And I thought the thing I need to do is I can't

• 28:24Speaker 01

  be unraveled. I have to ravel, because that's my job is to ravel as everyone's unraveling. And I guess I thought, wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this as an old guy. I, I wanted to be really famous when I was young and sexy. I didn't want it to be now. But.

• 28:41Ryan Holiday?

  Well, in that way, I think Marcus speaks to where we are now, sort of overseeing the decline of the empire. Do you know what I mean? Watching the, the, the wheels start to come off of this thing that works so well for so long.

• 28:57Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and I don't think we can stop it.

• 28:59Ryan Holiday?

  No.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Like, I, I, this is the thing, that's the thing, Stoicism, it really touches me. It's, I can't control it. I don't think I can even affect it. All I can do is, is lob comedy into it as, as we all kind of go down together. Because that can be, that can also, doesn't mean your life has to be bad, because even when things are going fantastically, look at Will Smith. Look what happened on Oscar's night. It was the highest moment of his life and the lowest. And we all have to be so. Careful of that because that's the thing that really got to me was when the kids in the hall started doing this, I realized, oh, my God, culture has changed tremendously.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  And wow, this is gonna be hard for five old white guys to do comedy in this age. Even me as a gay man, I thought, no one gives a fuck anymore. They don't know, they don't care what I went through. No, the young ones don't even know who I, who I am. And I had to let all that go and say, well, so be it. It's the way it is. They don't, and that's fine, too. And I was consumed with the idea, there's no way I'll be able to get out of this without being canceled. There's no way with the kind of brain that I have, the kind of way that I think, there's no question I'm going to be canceled. And I complete, and then I started going, what am I gonna do? And I started thinking, well, I want this to be successful, but it might be a shit show.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Our comeback might be a 24 hour cycle. It might, or it could be, we could be what people are waiting for. It could be, they could say, well, the kids in the hall are what this culture needs right now. Either one are completely fine. Like a disaster or a triumph, I realize now, they're the same thing. I'm not equipped for either. Do you know what I mean? I do, I do. I can be happy, like when I was fighting cancer, I wasn't, it wasn't like I was at my most miserable. In some ways, when I'm fighting for my life, I'm at my happiest. Which is what the shooting taught me, maybe not a good lesson, but when I talk about the day of the shooting,

• 31:11Speaker 01

  I realized that the day was definitely one of the worst days of my life, but also one of the best because I made it. And I, I'd fallen in love with survival. And that that high you get. So I thought I'm going to be, if I'm canceled, there's no canceling is just another word for exile. And Anthony said, you, if you are a person who seeks the truth, you will eventually be either executed or exiled. And I went, yeah, that's exactly what's going to happen. And one of those things could happen to me and I completely accept it.

• 31:49Ryan Holiday?

  And I think the Stoics do speak to where we are now. You're saying like, can you affect or arrest the decline of the empire? Maybe, maybe not. But what you can do is decide who you are going to be inside that. Like, you can decide, am I part of the solution? Am I part of the problem? As you said, am I going to unravel alongside it? Or am I going to be dignified and together and make people laugh or make some miniscule contribution to the happiness or improvement of life for the people around me?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yes, because as this empire goes down, another one's coming up. So it's not like the entire planet will be upset. Lots of people will be quite happy.

• 32:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. And also, you know, the decline of Rome took like 700 years, right? So sometimes we monitor these things within our own, like, we make ourselves the center of them in our own sense of time. It's important. I even think like, you know, the British Empire has been in decline since, you know, the mid 1900s. Still nice to live in London. There's still plenty of people doing great.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Fun city. I know. So like, I mean, Rome has still been a lot of fun as they were being wiped out, you know, in those German wars. So that's what I decided, look, if I'm a, look, let's face it, I'm a war comic, obviously.

• 33:13Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, poor comic. So talk, talk to me about humor and the Stoics, because I agree. I think the Stoics are funnier than people give them credit for.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, I think that a lot of the Stoics seem to be actually comedians. And I look at that world that they had and I went, oh, they all seem like traveling stand-up comics.

• 33:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  They have a circuit, they go around, you know what I mean? They're put up at different places and then they hang out with different people and they maybe sleep with a fan and then they go off to another place.

• 33:45Ryan Holiday?

  It's all dinner parties.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Dinner parties and acolytes and you're swanning around in robes and telling what you think about the world. And I'm like, fuck, that sounds great. Like, that just sounds great.

• 33:57Ryan Holiday?

  It does.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  And that is.

• 33:59Ryan Holiday?

  And, and what other, like, you think about Epictetus, if he's not fun, there's a line from Seneca. Seneca says, there's two ways to approach life with laughter or tears, right? And you could, you can despair about the horribleness of the world, or you can laugh at the absurdity of the world. You think about Epictetus, you can't get through 30 years of slavery, the broken leg, the, the evils of Nero's court. If you're focused on how horrible it is, you'd kill yourself.

• 34:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the other is great, the great story that I like about him, the one that also really stuck with me is about the lamp.

• 34:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Where he gets, he has this beautiful lamp that he just loves and he probably saved for it. He's like, oh God, I, I have enough points now on Amazon to get this lamp. And there's one on Etsy that's more expensive, but this is the one I want. He gets it and he treasures it and then it's stolen. And I'm, he's not upset because he goes like, look, I lost my lamp, but at least I can go to bed knowing I'm not a thief.

• 35:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  That just killed me. I just like, that's hilarious. Like, yeah, I lost my lamp, but I'm not a thief.

• 35:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, he also says, you can only lose what you have, which is such a funny way to describe being robbed.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and it's true. You don't really have anything and that, that's it. I have, I have what I'm, I have my mind and I have the way I react to things and, and that's it. Like, I can control one thing, how I react. And I've never, ever done that until now.

• 35:34Ryan Holiday?

  There's another Stoic named Agrippinus who's exiled and/or canceled, however you want to say, but he's exiled. And there's two things I think from him. One, he's told he's exiled, he's forced to go from Rome. And he goes, "Ah, all right, we'll have a nice lunch on the road." Like, I love the sort of immediate acceptance of the new situation and then finding like, it's almost as if the emperor can take away all my stuff, but he can't deprive me of the ability to joke about it.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Exactly. And he's thinking, "Oh, there's that little restaurant along the road that I've never been able to go to because I'm so busy with my success. Now I get to have that lovely lunch."

• 36:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  "I get to linger over lunches because I'll be in exile." And that's when I went, "Oh, fuck. If I'm canceled, I'll get to linger over a long lunch with my friends. How bad is that?"

• 36:28Ryan Holiday?

  There's a, I was thinking of seeing you in the red sweater, the multicolored sweater. Agrippinus also has this thing and he's saying that, okay, so see the, this is, your sweater is the exact opposite, but see the white stripe in the middle? He's, he's talking about a Roman sweater and he's saying, you know, "What makes the sweater wonderful is the stripe, right? The, the, the part that pops." And he says, "I want to be the red thread that makes the sweater stand out." And I love that idea too, like the, "I'm gonna be who I am. I'm gonna laugh at what I think is funny. I'm gonna pursue what I think is interesting. I don't give a shit if you like it. I don't give a shit if it's not like everyone else.

• 37:11Ryan Holiday?

  In fact, the whole point of life is to be different than everyone else."

• 37:16Speaker 01

  That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's how I feel. Like, I go, "Yeah, I want to be the red, well, the thread."

• 37:22Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  You know, that people know to go, "That, that little red thread, it's, you can, it's pulled out a little bit." Yeah, but you can't, you only look at that thread. And so, yeah, that's what I want to be. And so even if, no matter what happens, it doesn't matter to me. I'm gonna be happy inside, so.

• 37:38Ryan Holiday?

  When I have to imagine that that your early days in the entertainment business, things were not nearly so accepting or out in the open, right?

• 37:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no. That was very, you know, no, no, there were no, there weren't openly gay men in in pop culture and really there were certainly none in comedy. But I'll tell you, the one thing was, I went, wow, no one's done this before. And that's exciting. I realized when I was young, like, okay, this is ugly. Like, I came out into a war, like, when I first came, I came out late, which I think in some ways saved my life, because I think I'd be, I'd have been dead of AIDS. But when I came out, AIDS hit pretty quickly. And and next thing I know, I spent my whole life hating myself for being gay. And then suddenly I'm told that everything that I feared might be true. Maybe we are diseased creatures that need to be killed and everyone wants us dead.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  So there's a very, very good chance I won't even make 40. So I have nothing to lose. I might as well jump off this cliff. So I decided, you know what, no matter what happens, I'm gonna have a life that no one's ever lived before. And that was very exciting to me, like, well, no one's ever done this before. So I have nothing really to lose. So I'm just gonna jump and see what happens. And there were many years when I had regrets because I thought if I kept in the closet, I could have had a real career. I mean, I've had a real career, but I could have been a movie star, which is all I really ever wanted. But then I realized as I got older, look, I would have probably been dragged out of scandal and it would have ended in disaster and I would have probably died of a drug overdose.

• 39:12Speaker 01

  So really, it all has worked out.

• 39:15Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you wouldn't have been, you would have had to wake up every day not yourself. And that would have been its own kind of torture.

• 39:21Speaker 01

  That's exactly it, like going, imagine not, well, we're not, I'm not gonna go back to what we talked about early, but imagine not being allowed to be who you really are.

• 39:31Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 39:31Speaker 01

  And how that tortures you. And then imagine that will eventually come to a head one day in front of the world, possibly.

• 39:39Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you bought like-

• 39:40Speaker 01

  All the things that you have tried to bury will come out in a roar. And it will break you. And so this was, I was saved.

• 39:51Ryan Holiday?

  I think, I think that is something that people mistake about Stoicism, which is this idea that it's about the suppression of emotions or urges or, you know, Because if you do suppress it, if you stuff it into a closet or you shove it down, eventually it does come out and it comes out in a much less controlled way than if you process it and face it and deal with it and talk about it.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  That's right. And so, and that's it. So I thought I'm going, I'm going to, I'm going to be honest about who I am and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not going to bury it. I'm going to, I'm going to love it. And eventually, and I thought when I was younger, well, maybe if I survive, when I'm an old man, which is kind of happening, I mean, I can, you know, I'm not old, old, I'm not mentally old, but you know, chronologically I am eventually. That's when people will, will see what I did. And now I'm going, they still might not.

• 40:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  And it's still all right.

• 40:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that's

• 40:51Speaker 01

  That I never thought I'd get to. I thought I, I was like, I was verging on real bitterness. And there's not, no verging. I was, I was, I was consumed with bitterness that I hadn't gotten my due. And now it's like, who cares? No one cares if you get your due.

• 41:07Ryan Holiday?

  Well, you, you, yeah, you expect like, hey, I'm going to do this good thing or I'm going to do this. I'm going to stay on this path and eventually I'll be recognized for it. Eventually I'll be appreciated for it. But the, the danger of that, the Stoics would say is that you don't control it, right? And so you, you're not, you're, you're, you're just deferring, like, instead of going like, I want my recognition right now, which isn't good. You're saying, no, I'm, I'm going to be the good person. I'm going to delay my gratification. But you're actually just increasing what you think you're entitled to till down the road. And then, yeah, you are bitter because you're like, I've waited my whole life for this. Where is my thing?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  I know. And then you've created a martyr. And that's not good. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't want, I thought, what am I going to do? Be one of those martyr people? I, I suffered for everyone and no one even knew what I'd done. Oh, how boring.

• 42:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. And punishment for you too. No one, no one's having less fun than that person.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  That's right. And no one's thinking about it. No one cares. So that, that, that's, that hit really, really hard with me. And so I went, this is my last chance. This is really the last, it was the last exit off the highway. And I went, okay, I'm taking this one. I'm taking it. That's it. My last chance, because otherwise this highway ends and I go off a cliff.

• 42:26Ryan Holiday?

  Interesting. Yeah. I like the idea. I think about that is, obviously, you know, the Stoics, their metaphors stop before so much of the modern world. But I do like the idea of off-ramps or exits as the... Because the idea that you're ever going to get to a place where you just never do it is wrong. It's more like, I've started to lose my temper. Here's how I'm going to get off this highway. Right? Or, you know what I mean? I've started to go down this road, but here's the last exit before, you know, you end up... I like the idea of like, I'm going to stop myself before this gets worse.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And in many ways, that was the pandemic allowed me to do it in a strange way. Allowed me, and I thought, and then part of it was as well, I went, okay, one of the things I'm going to do is I'm going to completely forgive my father for everything that he did that I've hated him for, and I'm going to not only forgive him, I'm going to love him.

• 43:23Ryan Holiday?

  That's hard, though, right? That's hard.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable, but when it happened, it happened. And then it was beautiful. Now I love my dad and I even like him. And that just, that blows me away.

• 43:37Ryan Holiday?

  Is he still around?

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Yes, he's 90. He's going to be 93 next week. And he's in long-term care, but, you know, he doesn't have dementia, but he's had a stroke, so he has some damage. But we get along like a house on fire now, and I don't have any anger towards what he did. I accept it.

• 43:57Ryan Holiday?

  Talk about last, you didn't have many more exits before you could get there.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  No. And this was it. I go, what am I going to do? Like, I've never been able to make, you know, I've had relationships, but I've never had any relationship that's gone longer than three years. And I went, that must be part of it is because I've never truly healed the wound with my dad. I blamed him for everything. His violence, I blamed for everything. And, and then I looked at my own life and I went, okay, I didn't become a violent, physically violent person, but I certainly hurt people with my words. And I certainly hurt myself. And so I totally understand why he did what he did and why he treated me the way he did.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  And I accept that he grew up in a time that he could not, he had no concept of a son like me. I didn't just come out as gay, I came out to the world and he handled it. I didn't really handle it well. But so what?

• 44:58Ryan Holiday?

  So what? It's not, no one could have possibly prepared him for what life brought him.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  No, he had five boys. He, we lost one to suicide. He had another gay one. He had two gay sons and, you know, he just didn't have any concept of what his life was going to give him and he did his best. And that's changed everything for me and for him. And we get along great. We just really get along great.

• 45:25Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny, it's funny how the pandemic made that possible by forcing, like by slowing everything down, taking everything away. You, i- i- it stripped us, me especially, it stripped me of the ability to make excuses and to ignore what was obviously there. Because as everything went away, you're like, well, I'm still feeling all these things. Oh yeah, I'm the problem. Like I'm the source of this. I, the things I'm not dealing with, you're saying like, oh, I've not been in a relationship for more than this period because of this thing, not because, oh, they're all unrelated situations that I have no culpability for. It's sort of like,

• 46:07Ryan Holiday?

  I'm responsible for my choices, my emotions.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:12Ryan Holiday?

  And I'm gonna have to deal with them if I don't want the pattern to continue as it's continued.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And I'm the only real relationship that I've ever been able to

• 46:23Speaker 01

  to negotiate forever is the kids in the hall.

• 46:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  Honestly. And because it's five men in a group, in a team, working together for the common goal, which is the way I grew up with my five brothers and our, we were together.

• 46:35Ryan Holiday?

  Wow, sure.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  And our goal was to basically escape the wrath of our father.

• 46:39Ryan Holiday?

  Wow. It's dark when you kind of figure out how you've been playing the same patterns over and over.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. So when I met the kids in the hall, it was like, it was like meeting Epictetus. Like, love it for a sight. I knew exactly what the rest of my life would be. I went, this is, I didn't even know that I wanted to be a comedian. I was gonna be an actor. And then I saw them and I went, oh, that's exactly what I'm supposed to be. They don't know it yet. But this is the moment that I'm supposed to be in this group and they will eventually accept me. And I will make everything, I will do everything in my power to make them accept me because they have no choice. This is what the, and then I would say, this is what the gods want.

• 47:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  The gods want me to go there and I'm going to do that.

• 47:24Ryan Holiday?

  I like the concept of gods to go to what you're talking about. You know, it's like when you read a book about like a politician from 100 years ago, you don't really care whether they're liberal or a conservative Democrat or Republican because those words don't mean anything anymore. Like, you know that so much has changed that it's not really partisan anymore. Like, like, it doesn't matter that Abraham Lincoln was a Republican or FDR was a Democrat because that that word doesn't mean anything, right?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and left and right means nothing anymore.

• 47:48Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I mean, in the past, like, long, once it's in the past long enough, it's it ceases to have the same potency that knowing that this person or that person belongs to this party today, right? And I think the gods plural is easier to accept than the specific Christian god or Muslim god or whatever. You're just like, gods just means almost in the, the, the 12 step sense of like a higher power. It's just a thing that's not you is really, to me, what the gods mean. Like, something, someone.

• 48:19Speaker 01

  They're like all the different kinds of human, all the ways that you can be broken. And they all have a separate god for them and all the ways that you can be elevated, but they each have a god. And it just made sense to me. And it's also, it's just creatively more fun.

• 48:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Like, I go, do I believe in Zeus? And all of them? No. But it's a lot more fun than thinking of a, of an angry, you know, Abrahamic god.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  Or the nihilistic non-existence of anything. Yeah. Right? I like the pictures of people with clothes on, different outfits and you know what I mean? Sure. Passions and lovers and all that. I like that. As a child, I remember when I started reading about the, you know, Greek and Roman mess, that was another thing where I went, oh, this suits me. I never understood it. I remember a class on archetypes where I went, holy fuck, this, this makes me almost horny. I remember though, when I discovered the, the Greek and Roman mess, I was, it was, I was horny for it. Like I just, I don't know. I think they were always wearing like, you know, I like the way they dressed and. I like all of it, except, except they seem to be raping each other a lot.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Well, I, I wasn't, I, I, yeah. There's a lot of raping. I can work with that.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  A lot of toxic masculinity, which turns me on a little. I can't, I can't deny it. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not against all of it. No. If it's channeled correctly, I'm really, I'm there. I'm absolutely there. I like a little toxic masculinity. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm gonna lie to you about that and I can't help it. Oh no. My dad beat me ruthlessly to try to beat the gay out of me, but he just. Didn't work? That's all I'm saying. Didn't work? I'm guessing no. Huh? It didn't work? No, he made me like it rough. That's it. It didn't work. No, no, no, no, no. But it's true. I like those gods and their little skirts and their thigh high boots and. They were jacked. I mean, they were universally.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  They're really jacked and yeah, they were really jacked and fighting all the time and loving and lusting and drinking and, and that's it. They also seemed very petty. They would get caught up in grudges and it's very human. Yeah. So, so that's where I like Zeus. I like all of them.

• 50:39Ryan Holiday?

  So, so I watched the short film that you made. You gotta tell me what, what the fuck is happening in this thing?

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Well, you know, well, um, it's the four virtues. I wanted to do something. It's the only thing I've ever made that I never, that's not a comedy, even though I think it is kind of funny.

• 50:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, I thought it was funny. It was absurd.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Uh, it, it, I just thought, uh, it was, I, I made it during a year ago and no one's ever seen it. The first person, now I'm gonna release it.

• 51:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Cause I didn't know, I, I did it for myself as almost a, like an exercise in keeping myself sane. I thought, can I make a little movie by myself in my apartment with one left hand? Cause that's a real cast.

• 51:18Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, you're, and you're right-handed.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  That's right. So that's real. Like I was, I just had the operation and I couldn't use the hand cause the cast went up to here. I couldn't, I couldn't do anything. And so my best friend, Paul Bellini, he helped me do, he was the only person I could see during this period. And his boyfriend, George, had just bought, um, uh, a drone. So I thought, I'm gonna make a little film about the four virtues of Stoicism for no reason other than I wanna see if I can do it. By myself, I have no technical skill and I'm just gonna do it cause I need to do it. That's all. And I look at it now and I think it's kind of a meditation thing. I can wa- look, watch it and it just, it sets me back. I'm like, okay, I can remember what I'm looking for.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Um, I, I wanna get to that place where the clouds are just, the beautiful weather is just going through me.

• 52:11Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I relate to the, I relate to the one-armedness. When I was writing my first book, I broke my left elbow and I'm left-handed. And just suddenly you realize how dependent you are.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Really?

• 52:21Ryan Holiday?

  On doing the things the way that you've always done them.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the whole thing is words. I call it words because it's all about, you know, the last two, three years, my God, we've just become consumed with, with cancel culture and, you know, and, and, and, and all these new words have swaned up. And there were so many things that changed so quickly and drastically and we became, cause everything became about race and gender and sexuality. And I go, I can't fucking keep up. I can't, I can't figure out what to do. I can't figure out what's happening. And so that's why I I took a I bought this roll of paper on Amazon. And I just literally covered my room, this room that I'm in right now. I wrapped it like like crystal. I wrapped the room in paper.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  And I spent days with my left hand, writing all the things that all those words that are consuming our culture. And I just and then that was the whole idea. And then I put a little green screen in front of my um, door and and we put the fire on it because I went, I'm on fire. And I I'm on fire and I have I can't I know what's happening. I'm going down. I I'm on fire. So I I bless you. So um, that's what I did. And so and and we were and that's why it has the four virtues. And I use the old fashioned words, too. I didn't want to use the modern words. I thought prudence is much cooler than wisdom. It's so old fashioned. It's weird to use that word, but I I liked it. And, you know, justice didn't seem to need a change. But um,

• 53:50Speaker 01

  that was the that's the whole reason for it. And I know I'm gonna let I'm gonna put it out there and see what people think. But I don't really care. I just made it because I thought I want to make something to honor Epictetus.

• 54:03Ryan Holiday?

  What what is the what's the virtue that that resonates with you the most of the four? Is there one that you find yourself coming to over and over again?

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Well, I like prudence. I like wisdom. Uh, you know, but temperance is the most important balance. I think balance. I've never had balance.

• 54:22Ryan Holiday?

  That's the that's the one I'm I'm just copy editing. I'm doing this series on the four virtues. I did courage. I just wrote temperance, which I render as both restraint, but also self discipline. But I agree.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Well, it's self discipline. Yeah. Like I just thought like I've never I've I've I've I gotta get control of my of my emotions. I have to get control of my vices. I have to get control of my anger. And um, and fortitude, like when the fortitude I wanted to to I wanted people to really focus on it. Because I wanted to really is not the strength. It's not the quick strength. It's the long strength. I play a long game. And I realize I'm playing a long game. That's why I want to take time with this with fortitude. Because I have the strength. I don't have the physical strength, but I have I you can't. I just I'm a cockroach. I will, when it's all said and done, I will pop up and go, I'm still here.

• 55:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. Well, you can't have the the the kind of career that you've had over the period that you've had if you're sort of of faint heart and easily discouraged.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'm I'm I'm sure I'm never known and I'm not easily discouraged. I and that's part of like it's for me. It's like, and I go back to some of these tragedies that happened when I was young is is is um, I don't know, I lost my point. I I um, I did I lost my point. I'm sorry.

• 55:45Ryan Holiday?

  No, no, that there are the early tragedies that I imagine they you that's you said this earlier, but that's when you realized you were a survivor. It feels like that's the lesson you took.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Yes, and that I was playing a long game.

• 55:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Not not the short game. And so it may I may look like I'm losing now, but eventually I will win.

• 56:08Ryan Holiday?

  Right, right.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  And that's just because I will still be standing.

• 56:13Ryan Holiday?

  But you don't have to be the best. You just have to be the hardest to get to get rid of.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And I'm not even the most talented or the funniest or anything, but I might be the one that works the hardest and and has the law, you know, the most stamina.

• 56:26Ryan Holiday?

  Is that sort of what what the I know a more fatty resonated with you, the idea of just sort of like using all of it, not hating or resenting, just accepting? Is that sort of what that's meant to you?

• 56:39Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Using all of it, using everything you have.

• 56:44Ryan Holiday?

  That is the perk of being a creative, right? Is that you do have the ability to so clearly use what's happened to you in your art?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Yes. And you don't have I'm not saying you have to have tragedy to, you know, forge your steel, but it it helps.

• 57:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  It it does help. And if you can survive it, you will come out better. And if as a comedian, if you survive it, you will come out a better artist.

• 57:13Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and I think, you know, if you're a comedian or an artist that's never experienced anything, you've hit only green lights along your, along the way, you know, you were successful early, et cetera. How are you going to relate to the vast majority of the population for whom that is not true?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Exactly. I don't know who said this, but whatever it is, it's quite wise, is that one of the worst things that can happen to a person is a gilded childhood.

• 57:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Because then where do you go from there?

• 57:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, that's true. That's true.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Where do you go when you've had a perfect childhood? How do you like peeking? You don't want to peek when you're a kid.

• 57:50Ryan Holiday?

  This is the temperance, right? You don't want your kids to have a horrible childhood and then you also don't want it to be perfect. It should just be good, but not easy.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Like, we are seeing, we are seeing now the, the fruits of a generation that was overly coddled.

• 58:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  And, and that's absolutely true. And, and that's its own tragedy.

• 58:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, because you're not very resilient and you also take everything personally because it feels like, uh, why is this happening to me after my whole life has not been this thing?

• 58:21Speaker 01

  That's right. And me too, as a gay man my age, I realize I've got it for the young ones that are coming up that I'm so jealous of because I became consumed with jealousy and how easy they had it. But I thought, well, it's not going to help anyone if I'm a bitter old queen. I have to be that funny, you know what I mean? That funny gay uncle that everybody wants to be with. So in order for me to be helpful and useful, useful, I want to be useful to this new generation, I have to become Gandalf the White.

• 58:52Ryan Holiday?

  That's such a great, that's such a great.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Gandalf in the movie.

• 58:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. No, Bruce Springsteen had this thing where he said, are you going to be an ancestor or a ghost to your children? Right? And I think that's also true for your community or your industry or the world. Like, are you this thing that kind of haunts and makes everything awful? Or are you a guide or a, an elder or a mentor figure? You've got to choose because you're going to, if you're lucky enough to end. Up old or a senior statesman of whatever it is that you do, you then have to choose, are you gonna be, are you gonna be that person that's standing beside history and trying to stop it all? You know, yelling, get off my lawn? Or are you the cool old person that people stop by and ask for advice?

• 59:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want to be that guy with the twinkle in his eye.

• 59:40Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  And that's why it's when Gandalf falls into that pit and then he comes back up in the next book and he fights the, is it the Balrog? But you know, the, is it the Balrog that he fights? I don't know, maybe you're not a Lord of the Rings guy.

• 59:51Ryan Holiday?

  I'm definitely not.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, it's great. But I went, okay, I'm in a big battle. This is a big, this is a profound battle for me and I'm gonna win it. And I'm gonna, when I come out of it, I will be a different person. And so that was it. I do, I want to be that guy. And I also think, look, to be an elder, like I want, I, I, I can't be walking, I need to wear those clothes. I need those robes. I want those white robes, just barely touching the ground, swishing along. I want those nice, really, I want those sandals that were made by Seneca's shoemaker. Was it Seneca's?

• 1:00:26Ryan Holiday?

  Nero's, Nero's cobbler, yeah.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Nero's cobbler. I want shoes from Nero's cobbler. I want the clothes. I, I just really want to, I really want to swan around in robes. I do. I don't see why I can't.

• 1:00:42Ryan Holiday?

  No one's stopping you.

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  I don't, it's not against the law to go on a talk show in a long, white toga.

• 1:00:49Ryan Holiday?

  I don't know if you'll, I don't know if you'll get invited back, but you're right. It is not against the law.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  But it's gonna, it'll be a moment and it'll, it'll, you know, it'll trend on Twitter for a day and that's, that's all right. And then some kids will pick it up as a, you know, as a way to dress.

• 1:01:04Ryan Holiday?

  Well, Seneca said, because that is kind of a philosophical thing, you know, suddenly you start wearing weird clothes, you stop shaving, you know, and Seneca says, look, the Stoic path is that on the outside, you're exactly the same as everyone else, but it's on the inside, you're different. So maybe you just need to, you need to figuratively put on your robes.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I think you're right. Yeah, I can still wear, I can still wear Western clothing.

• 1:01:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Because then people will think I'm just a kook.

• 1:01:32Ryan Holiday?

  But they sense your Gandalf energy in the room and they gravitate towards it.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  They know that I have long, white hair. And I smoke a pipe.

• 1:01:41Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  They know that. They can tell. They can tell.

• 1:01:44Ryan Holiday?

  I love it. Well, I'm sensing it in this, in this conversation. So I'm so glad we got connected. And I'm so, you know, it's funny, like, I think sometimes people don't understand, like, you know, why is he talking about Stoicism on this outlet? Or why is he making these videos? Or whatever. When I hear that, like, you know, I do this morning hip hop radio show, and then it's reaching this person in Canada who's had a totally different life than me. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's why. It worked. You know what I mean? Like, it worked.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  It really did. I have to thank you. I really thank you. Because it's true. I literally, after I listened to that, I parked, I listened to it. And then I went online and I ordered the books. And I have, I've just never done that before. I just, and I kept reading him going, this guy's amazing. And I, I, I fell in love with him. I'm in love with him.

• 1:02:33Ryan Holiday?

  Me too. I, look, I, I feel like all I'm doing is paying forward that conversation that I had with Dr. Drew when I was 19 years old. And he said, hey, you should read this guy Epictetus.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  That's amazing. It all came from Dr. Drew, really?

• 1:02:48Ryan Holiday?

  It did. Yeah. I, I went up to him and I said, hey, you seem smart. What book should I read? And he said, I'm reading this slave Epictetus. And that changed the whole course of my life.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  And so why have there never been a movie?

• 1:03:02Ryan Holiday?

  I don't know.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Why has there been no Epictetus movie?

• 1:03:05Ryan Holiday?

  Well, have you read A Man in Full by Tom Wolfe?

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  I just got it.

• 1:03:10Ryan Holiday?

  That's the, that's basically the only real appearance of Epictetus in, in sort of fictional work. You'd like that.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Ready to read.

• 1:03:17Ryan Holiday?

  I think you'd like it.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  And does he's act, he's actually in it?

• 1:03:20Ryan Holiday?

  Well, not epic, basically this guy discovers Epictetus. It's like sort of running through the whole book. Him, he has this conversion to Stoicism amidst all these other things happening in the novel. But it's really cool.

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm gonna read that then.

• 1:03:35Ryan Holiday?

  And there's another one. There's one called Memoirs of Hadrian, which won like the National Book Award, like 50 years ago. But it's, to talk about your Gandalf rule, it's, it's fictional, but it's the idea that Hadrian is writing down all the lessons that he wants to leave to Marcus Aurelius before he dies.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:03:56Ryan Holiday?

  And so it's got some real elder energy to it.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Okay. Good.

• 1:04:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  There's never been a movie about his life.

• 1:04:02Ryan Holiday?

  There never, no, I don't think there has been. I mean, I guess there's some, no, no, there, there really hasn't been.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Like to write.

• 1:04:09Ryan Holiday?

  I just, I, I've not, I've not told anyone about it, but I, I just finished a kid's book about Epictetus.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  You wrote it?

• 1:04:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I, I did, I did one at the beginning of the pandemic for my oldest son, uh, that was about Marcus Aurelius becoming emperor as a boy. And then I decided to do one about Epictetus, but the big choice I made is I made Epictetus a girl.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:04:31Ryan Holiday?

  So we'll see, we'll see how it goes. Cause the, the last one was about a boy and I, I, I do, I do dislike the sort of exclusively masculine energy of Stoicism.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Ryan Holiday?

  And especially if you're trying to talk to a young person about, so I made Epictetus a girl.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:46Ryan Holiday?

  Which, which I feel like is okay to do because Musonius Rufus, Epictetus's teacher, also taught girls. He was very progressive.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Ryan Holiday?

  In his belief that virtue had no gender connotations.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  That's good. Yeah.

• 1:05:00Ryan Holiday?

  So that, that's, I'll, I'll send it to you when, when it, when it comes out the printer.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Well, thank you.

• 1:05:05Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, this is amazing. Well, uh, I can't wait to see the film come out and, uh, I hope we can connect, uh, next time I'm in Canada or you're in Texas.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. I think you're really gonna enjoy the movie.

• 1:05:16Ryan Holiday?

  I, alright.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  The documentary is wonderful. We all loved it. The five of us loved it, which is unheard of for all five of us to love it.

• 1:05:22Ryan Holiday?

  That would be the hard part, getting, getting five guys to agree on anything.

• 1:05:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's moving. It tells our story properly. And the five of us are at a stage where we go, ah, we don't mind if people see the darkness.

• 1:05:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you're past giving a fuck. I have to imagine.

• 1:05:36Speaker 01

  We, we don't. We've been together forever. This, we're married to each other. You can't really hurt us.

• 1:05:41Ryan Holiday?

  I love it.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Any longer.

• 1:05:43Ryan Holiday?

  That, that's, that's the Stoic sage level. When, when you're past all that.

• 1:05:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, what are you gonna do? Like really? You're, what are you gonna do? Give me cancer? What are you gonna do? Shoot me? Play? Blah, blah, blah. Oh, um, done.

• 1:05:55Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, man. I love it.

• 1:05:58Ryan Holiday?

  You know, the Stoics in real life met at what was called the Stoa, the Stoa Pochyle, the Painted Porch in ancient Athens. Obviously, we can't all get together in one place because this community is like hundreds of thousands of people and we couldn't fit in one space. But we have made a special digital version of the Stoa. We're calling it Daily Stoic Life. It's an awesome community. You could talk about, like today's episode, you could talk about the emails, ask questions. That's one of my favorite parts is interacting with all these people who are using Stoicism to be better in their actual, real lives. You get more Daily Stoic meditations over the weekend, just for the Daily Stoic Life members, quarterly Q and As with me, cloth-bound edition of our Best of meditations, plus a whole bunch of other stuff, including discounts.

• 1:06:42Ryan Holiday?

  And, this is the best part, all our Daily Stoic courses and challenges totally for free, hundreds of dollars of value every single year, including our New Year, New You challenge. We'd love to have you join us. There's a two-week trial totally for free. Check it out at DailyStoicLife.com.