Big Tech to Pay for Power, Anthropic Abandons Safety, the Adoption Paradox | Diet TBPN

Diet TBPN delivers the best of today’s TBPN episode in 30 minutes. TBPN is a live tech talk show hosted by John Coogan and Jordi Hays, streaming weekdays 11–2 PT on X and YouTube, with each episode posted to podcast platforms right after. Described by The New York Times as “Silicon Valley’s newest obsession,” the show has recently featured Mark Zuckerberg, Sam Altman, Mark Cuban, and Satya Nadella. TBPN is made possible by: Ramp - https://Ramp.com https://ramp.com/ AppLovin - https://axon.ai https://axon.ai/ Cisco - https://www.cisco.com https://www.cisco.com/ Cognition - https://cognition.ai https://cognition.ai/ Console - https://console.com https://console.com/ CrowdStrike - https://crowdstrike.com https://crowdstrike.com/ ElevenLabs - https://elevenlabs.io https://elevenlabs.io/ Figma - https://figma.com https://figma.com/ Fin - https://fin.ai https://fin.ai/ Gemini - https://gemini.google.com https://gemini.google.com/ Graphite - https://graphite.com https://graphite.com/ Gusto - https://gusto.com/tbpn Kalshi - https://kalshi.com https://kalshi.com/ Labelbox - https://labelbox.com https://labelbox.com/ Lambda - https://lambda.ai https://lambda.ai/ Linear - https://linear.app https://linear.app/ MongoDB - https://mongodb.com https://mongodb.com/ NYSE - https://nyse.com https://nyse.com/ Okta - https://www.okta.com https://www.okta.com/ Phantom - https://phantom.com/cash Plaid - https://plaid.com https://plaid.com/ Public - https://public.com https://public.com/ Railway - https://railway.com https://railway.com/ Restream - https://restream.io https://restream.io/ Sentry - https://sentry.io https://sentry.io/ Shopify - https://shopify.com/tbpn Turbopuffer - https://turbopuffer.com https://turbopuffer.com/ Vanta - https://vanta.com https://vanta.com/ Vibe - https://vibe.co https://vibe.co/ Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01John Coogan?

  So I was nerding out about this Fed paper because when you told John Collison, 80% of businesses are getting no value from AI, I'm glad he wasn't here in person because he was about to throw down.

• 0:15Jordi Hays?

  He was about to open up a can of whoop.

• 0:18John Coogan?

  It was about to be a bar fight in the Chicky Pub.

• 0:20Jordi Hays?

  In the Chicky.

• 0:21John Coogan?

  In the Guinness Pub. No, seriously, it was a great question because I think we all agree that like AI adoption is real, it's valuable, it's happening, but it is a very interesting statistic. And I think it's a mistake for tech people to like dismiss this stat because of where it's coming from. Like it's not coming from some like doomer anti-AI blogger who's going for clicks. Like this is the National Bureau for Economic Research. This is a research paper that could be circulated, probably will be circulated within the Fed. And I think that it's already getting quoted by the New York Times in that dot com bubble, AI bubble piece. And I'm just, I'm thinking it through, like this could be something where you see Fed

• 1:04John Coogan?

  policy or government legislation that's sort of mismatched with what is actually happening in reality. And so we should go through some of the, some of the stats to actually break this down because the headline is 80% of firms reported that AI was having no impact on their productivity or employment. And that's actually like a misquote. Like what they mean by that is that it's not shaping their hiring plan yet. They actually are using AI. And so basically this stat comes from this survey from the National Bureau of Economic Research. And it's pretty interesting because a lot of the polls that you see online are online surveys.

• 1:47John Coogan?

  They run some digital ads and they say, are you a CFO of a company? We don't really care what company. We'll pay you $10 to take this quick survey.

• 1:56Jordi Hays?

  And what kind of people want to make $10?

• 1:58John Coogan?

  A lot of liars. There's a lot of liars out there who say, I am absolutely a CFO and please send that Amazon gift card right my way. And so for this one, they actually did the work. They called up. And ID verified and then also reality check the position. So if you say, yeah, I'm the chief pirate officer, I'm the ninja hero, whatever. You got some fake title there, you're out of the survey. So they did some reality checking and they pulled together 6,000 of these business leaders across firms that are domiciled in the US, UK, Germany, and Australia. The line from John Collison that has been sort of going viral, that was, he dropped it on sources, I think he said it to us too. It's a good line. No one wants a refund on their tokens. Everyone is using AI, the spend is increasing.

• 2:43Jordi Hays?

  Although I'm sure some CEOs heard that and thought, I kind of do want a refund.

• 2:48John Coogan?

  I'd love a refund.

• 2:50Jordi Hays?

  I had one team member go absolutely haywire and spend 50 grand.

• 2:54John Coogan?

  He's one shot. He claims that he rebuilt our entire ERP, but I fired it up and it didn't even have HTTPS.

• 3:01Jordi Hays?

  The Mac Mini wasn't even plugged in.

• 3:03John Coogan?

  Yeah, the Mac Mini wasn't even plugged in. He was, he was just chatting. But clearly there is a disconnect between like the Stripe data is very real, the value creation is very real, the revenue is very real at the labs. But when just random Joe Schmo CFOs, CEOs get a call from the feds, they say like, yeah, we're not really getting that much value out of AI. And so the questions that you need to dig into, there's actually four key findings. The one headline that the New York Times is pushing is this 80% number. 80% report little impact or no impact on employment or productivity. But there's actually a bunch of positive signals, there's a bunch of mixed signals in here.

• 3:44John Coogan?

  So 70% of firms actively use AI and particularly younger, more productive firms. Second, while over two thirds of top executives regularly use AI, their average use is only 1.5 hours per week. And one quarter of executives report no AI use at all. Not for.

• 4:07Jordi Hays?

  Why would I need that? I have a telephone.

• 4:09John Coogan?

  The last major finding that we should touch on is firms predict sizable impacts over the next three years. Forecasting AI will boost productivity, sizable impacts, productivity increase, 1.4%.

• 4:21John Coogan?

  Which is like, it's very sizable if you're an economic researcher, but it's not particularly sizable if you're in like the fast takeoff scenario. Measuring AI adoption is a mess. Many people use AI without even knowing that they're using AI because it's buried deeper in SaaS products that they already daily drive. Like if you're just, I rent a coffee shop and I'm using Toast for, you know, payment processing, like there's probably some AI features in there already. And when you go to, you know, type in, okay, we're adding a new cinnamon roll to the, to the, you know, the menu, there's probably a button now that just says like, do you want to just generate an image of a cinnamon roll? You could upload one still. That's probably a feature that already exists, but like, we could also just generate one for you and you can probably click that.

• 5:04John Coogan?

  But you're not like, oh yeah, I'm an AI powered user just because like you happen to use Toast and Toast happened to have implemented some gen AI feature that like you haven't really dug into yet. So some AI isn't even detectable. Uh, you could be talking to a customer support agent on the phone that is AI generated and not be able to tell. We talked about that, uh, that airline interaction that got something a hundred thousand likes and uh,

• 5:28Jordi Hays?

  Grace, the woman that had the interaction came into the chat yesterday and said it was real.

• 5:33John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was real.

• 5:33Jordi Hays?

  She outmaneuvered the clanker.

• 5:35John Coogan?

  Yeah, but still think about like, she's clearly on X in tech, like very AI aware. There are probably tons of people out there that are saying, oh yeah, my job, you know, every once in a while I have to call this service. And now the person that picks up is like responding pretty quickly, but I haven't noticed, they haven't noticed that they're actually interacting with AI or using AI in some capacity.

• 5:57Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I still think there's room for a research firm focused entirely on diffusion. So if you had a group of 10 to 20 people that were spending all their time talking to business owners and executives, operators and getting a sense of how they're actually using this stuff, I think you could put together some really compelling, uh, reports around it that would be pretty useful to everyone from AI companies to Wall Street.

• 6:23John Coogan?

  Yeah. Adoption Max after Cluster Max and Inference Max. They had to rename it. Apparently, uh, semi-analysis can't use Max for some reason. So they do inference Max is now inference X. And everyone was saying, you need to just change it to inference mock. Which would have been amazing, but inference X obviously has a much more professional tone to it. What does it mean to actually adopt AI? That's very vague. This paper defines it pretty broadly. So, uh, machine learning for data processing. So that doesn't even necessarily mean L L Ms. That just means M L, which has been around for a very long time. Text generation using L L Ms, that's what we think of as chat G P T.

• 7:04John Coogan?

  Visual content creation, so diffusion models, but also robotics and autonomous vehicles. And there's another, and there's a category just for other, and firms can select multiple. And so if you selected yes on any of those, you go in the bucket of AI adopter. And seventy eight percent of firms in the United States said, yes, they are using AI by this definition. And you can also dig in further. So text generation using L L Ms is the single most common use case at about forty one percent of firms. So flip that around, fifty nine percent of firms aren't even using L L Ms for text generation or proofreading. But again, there's a lot of companies where it's like, yeah, we don't generate a lot of text. Across the four countries that were surveyed, sixty nine percent of firms totally said they currently use AI.

• 7:47John Coogan?

  I think Australia was behind a little bit, dragging that down. Only seventy five percent of firms expect to be using AI technology sometime over the next three years.

• 7:56Speaker 02

  Tyler's gonna have a heart attack.

• 7:57John Coogan?

  We're gonna bump that up to seventy five percent. And this is like, this is weird data. And I, and I, you can jump in with your pushback whatever you want. But my point is, is not that, is not that they're right. Like, I think that, I think that they're wrong to predict this. I think that the AI adoption will be very steep and very dramatic. But I just think it's important to recognize that like, this is a paper that people will be citing. This is a paper that will shape policy. This is a paper that reveals some misconception about the impact AI is having in firms.

• 8:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I still think it's just, it's so hard to like actually quantify this.

• 8:29John Coogan?

  The perception, I think, still does matter. Because I, I think that there's a little bit of like potential self referentialness here, where firms see, oh, like AI adoption's low. I don't need to go and figure out how to adopt it. And so that's something that I'm also like keeping, keeping an eye on. The biggest thing was, uh, there was a massive diversion in the expected employment impact. So basically, uh, sixty-three percent of firms still expect no impact from AI. And that just completely goes against everything everyone's saying in, in Silicon Valley. So there's still a lot of optimism among managers that AI will create more opportunities and new jobs, even if some jobs become obsolete. My read on this data is that the tech talking point about fifty percent of white collar work going away

• 9:12John Coogan?

  is not a broadly held belief among average, uh, business leaders. Uh, now, they might be wrong. I do think AI progress is pacing way ahead of public expectations and most managers are months behind when it comes to understanding frontier capabilities. The bigger takeaway for me is just that this survey may be somewhere self reinforcing. I, I closed by thinking about like the nature of polling and, and how do you actually get stronger data on, uh, on AI adoption? And I was thinking back to the presidential cycle. So during the, uh, during the presidential election, uh, pollsters would call people sort of at random and they would ask them, who are you voting for? And a lot of people would say, uh, they'd lie or they wouldn't say,

• 9:54John Coogan?

  or they, or they wouldn't pick up the phone if they were voting for a particular candidate. And so the polling numbers did not wind up matching the, uh, the final election results very closely. And so there was the story about neighbor polling, which was more effective, where instead of calling someone and asking them, who are you voting for? The pollster calls and asks, who do you think your neighbors are voting for? Who's more popular in your community? Who's more popular on your, on your city block, on your street? And that wound up sort of removing the revealed preference, stated preference, and it wound up increasing accuracy. And so I'd like to see a survey of AI adoption using this technique.

• 10:35John Coogan?

  Anyway, we should, we should watch a little bit of a clip from the State of the Union because Donald Trump addressed some of the energy production question uh, with regard to, uh, like how hyperscalers will be offsetting the impacts.

• 10:51Speaker 03

  Many Americans are also concerned that. Energy demand from AI data centers could unfairly drive up their electric utility bills. Tonight, I'm pleased to announce that I have negotiated the new rate payer protection pledge. You know what that is? We're telling the major tech companies that they have the obligation to provide for their own power needs. They can build their own power plants as part of their factory so that no one's prices will go up. And in many cases, prices of electricity will go down for the community and very substantially down. This is a unique strategy never used in this country before. We have an old grid. It could never handle the kind of numbers, the amount of electricity that's needed. So I'm telling them, they can build their own plant, they're going to produce their own electricity.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  It will ensure the company's ability to get electricity while at the same time lowering prices of electricity for you and could be very substantial for all of you cities and towns. You're going to see some good things happen over the next number of years.

• 11:50John Coogan?

  What's your reaction to that?

• 11:51Jordi Hays?

  I think it's a good start. I don't know that it will quell any of the fears around data centers, just given that people kind of see the potential for this massive structure going up. They have so much fear about it. And again, I think it's clearly going to be necessary to continue to build data centers in heavily populated areas, but...

• 12:13John Coogan?

  How would you rank the fears currently? Because I've put, I've put my energy bill goes up and that puts pressure on my income and ability to live my life at pretty much the top. And then the water thing felt, you know, secondary but also important. And then there's the existential fear of like doom and apocalypse. There's also job displacement. And then there's also just like, I don't like the slop.

• 12:44Jordi Hays?

  I would rank it on electricity bill going up is pain today.

• 12:48John Coogan?

  And it's so real.

• 12:49Jordi Hays?

  And there's fear, and it's easy to imagine. And then there's fear around the job loss narrative that is sort of secondary. And opposing a data center in your local area feels like a way... To have some agency around that like overall kind of like job loss concern.

• 13:06John Coogan?

  Yeah, AI is going to get blamed even if there's and even if like tariffs drive high unemployment, like if people lose their jobs, like AI is going to be a scapegoat and and it's going to be used both by executives.

• 13:20Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's the perfect scapegoat for executives and for people frustrated with the job market.

• 13:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it's like, oh, I my business isn't doing poorly right now. I'm I'm laying off people because I'm getting so much benefit from AI. The stock should actually go up. We're more efficient. There's going to be a lot of that, but it does feel like it's a little bit early. Whereas the like, there are a lot of people that just can hold up their power bill and show you year over year increases. And if that goes away and people don't feel that anymore and they don't have that evidence to share, I think that take gets debunked pretty quickly.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  I would say I mostly disagree with the idea that like rising energy prices is the main like reason to be against AI. The rational thing to do then is say like, okay, before you build a data center in my community, you have to build a power plant. So then my energy prices go down. Yeah, no one's doing that. If you look at like protests and stuff, they're not saying, please build a power plant first. They're saying like, it's going to destroy the environment or the water stuff, or you're going to take all the jobs because it's going to like.

• 14:20John Coogan?

  We need to send you to that New Jersey, New Brunswick protest. Build the nuclear power plant first.

• 14:25Speaker 02

  So I think it's much more on like basically job loss of like, oh, the AI is stealing the IP of

• 14:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Disney or whatever.

• 14:33John Coogan?

  Anyway, happy Nvidia day to all who celebrate, except the bears. Forget them, says Take Him. He's getting fired up for Nvidia earnings. It's going to be a fun one today.

• 14:43Jordi Hays?

  So we have

• 14:44John Coogan?

  This has been

• 14:45Jordi Hays?

  This is tearing up the timeline. A new Guinness World Record, and I want to ask John if this, if you think this should actually count.

• 14:56Jordi Hays?

  This is a Chinese hypercar going for the fastest drift ever.

• 15:01John Coogan?

  That is crazy.

• 15:02Jordi Hays?

  Here's the thing, he doesn't. He doesn't actually pull out of it?

• 15:07John Coogan?

  Does he just crash?

• 15:08Jordi Hays?

  Kind of just U-turns? It's like a really fast U-turn?

• 15:11John Coogan?

  I think this counts as a drift. That's definitely drifting.

• 15:13Jordi Hays?

  U-turning counts as a drift?

• 15:14John Coogan?

  If you saw, if you saw that car going by, you'd be like, wow, that's drifting. Hypetech SSR, formerly Hyper SSR, is a high-performance, all-electric, two-door supercar. I mean, this is crazy. This is out before the Tesla Roadster. We've never seen a two-door supercar, electric supercar. 1,225 horsepower goes from 0 to 60 in 1.9 seconds. And it set the Guinness Book of World Records for the fastest electric car drift at 213 kilometers per hour, which is what?

• 15:45Jordi Hays?

  Really, really insane. I feel like you have to actually stay in the, stay in the turn and not do a U-turn.

• 15:52John Coogan?

  What do you mean, stay in the turn?

• 15:53Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't think it counts.

• 15:54John Coogan?

  You don't think it counts?

• 15:55Jordi Hays?

  For what it's worth, I don't think that counts at all. Theoretically, if you were drifting, and I think of drifting, it's you're drifting around a corner, around a turn. And if you were to drift and spin out during the drift, then that doesn't, if you were doing, if somebody was doing that on a track, you'd be like, you didn't drift around the corner, you spun out.

• 16:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, okay, okay. Yeah, the top comments is fastest spin out. That's a power slide at best.

• 16:18Jordi Hays?

  Gayb, agree.

• 16:19John Coogan?

  Fire whoever called this drifting. That's not drifting, that's losing control. Yes, the chat does not, does not like the drift, the fake drift. Call Guinness Book of World Records again. Reset, reset completely.

• 16:32Jordi Hays?

  Stolen drift valor.

• 16:37Jordi Hays?

  Palmer is sharing something from Compound, the research.

• 16:41John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 16:42Jordi Hays?

  From their annual meeting.

• 16:43John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 16:44Jordi Hays?

  They're, they're showing dollars invested in the top 10 companies versus the other percentage, as a percent of overall funding. You can see there's just heavy, heavy, heavy concentration in a few names.

• 16:55John Coogan?

  Is this them?

• 16:56Jordi Hays?

  Overall, this is.

• 16:57John Coogan?

  Or is this, is this Kotu?

• 16:58Jordi Hays?

  No, this is, oh, the source is Kotu. Kotu is part of.

• 17:02John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 17:02Jordi Hays?

  They they are part of, I would say, driving this data.

• 17:05John Coogan?

  Part of the problem, part of the opportunity. I mean,

• 17:07Jordi Hays?

  But but so much of this is about the AI labs just raising more money than any private

• 17:13John Coogan?

  It's never happened before.

• 17:14Jordi Hays?

  Have ever.

• 17:15John Coogan?

  Two hundred billion dollars. Venture as a class in a good year will do like four hundred billion. And across OpenAI at a hundred billion, thirty for Anthropic, twenty for XAI. Then you have, you know, a bunch of Neo Labs all picking up a billion each. Like, you very quickly get to a few companies raising half of all the money, and that's shown here. It it it's an incredible amount of concentration. I think a lot of it is due to companies staying private this long. The idea, Facebook went public at, what was Bill Gurley saying? He was saying Amazon went public sub a billion dollars? When Facebook went public at like sixty billion, it was like, wow, crazy. They waited way too long.

• 17:57John Coogan?

  And now it's like multiple trillion dollar companies are still private, which is just an incredible capital sink. So, I don't know. Should you even put those in the same bucket? Are they are they even venture bets at this point? If any if any venture capital fund is putting that in their venture bucket at this point, it feels feels ridiculous compared to growth scale. I mean, you're you're bigger than probably ninety percent of the S and P. Like, it's a completely different business.

• 18:24Jordi Hays?

  Some kind of relevant data. We're about to witness three of the largest IPOs in history. SpaceX is targeting one and a half trillion. OpenAI aims for one trillion. Anthropic is valued at three hundred and eighty billion. Combined, they're at two point nine trillion in potential market cap. The scale is unprecedented, but the real problem isn't the market cap, it's the float. Typical IPOs offer fifteen to twenty five percent of their shares to the public markets. This creates enough liquidity for price discovery while allowing founders and early investors to maintain control. Facebook floated fifteen percent at the sixty billion that you mentioned and actually traded down pretty much immediately, right? Google floated nineteen percent. Alibaba floated fifteen percent. At fifteen percent float, here's what these three IPOs would require.

• 19:06Jordi Hays?

  SpaceX would be three hundred billion or two hundred and twenty five billion. OpenAI would be a hundred and fifty billion. Anthropic would be fifty seven billion.

• 19:13John Coogan?

  It's a lot of scaccaroos.

• 19:14Jordi Hays?

  He was, he was, uh, yeah, a lot of, a lot of dollars. He was comparing that to Saudi Ramco, Alibaba and SoftBank, which were, uh, uh, combined at the IPO.

• 19:28Jordi Hays?

  I believe Saudi Aramco raised 29 billion at a 1.7 trillion dollar market cap. So he's making the case, you can't really kind of model how the public markets will absorb these companies off of Saudi Aramco.

• 19:43John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 19:43Jordi Hays?

  Even though from a sort of like topline market cap standpoint, it is a good proxy. We'll see what the labs end up doing. They are obviously wildly capital intensive businesses and you can imagine they raise quite a bit more than the Aramcos or the Ali Baba's.

• 20:02John Coogan?

  Saudi Aramco was such a wild ride. I feel like they were trying to IPO for like a

• 20:08Jordi Hays?

  The San Francisco company?

• 20:09John Coogan?

  It is, yeah. Founded in California. Like, I remember hearing Saudi Aramco IPO rumors in like 2015. I think it actually kicked off in 2016. They finally got out in 2019. It was, I mean, it was largest IPO ever. There were like a million investment banks attached, like going all over the world, marshalling capital.

• 20:28Jordi Hays?

  Anthropic dials back AI safety commitments. Competitive pressure prompts it to pivot away from a more cautious stance. Anthropic, the AI company known for its devotion to safety, is scaling back that commitment, the company said Tuesday. It is softening its core safety policy to stay competitive with other AI labs. Anthropic previously paused development work on its model if it could be classified as dangerous, but it said it would end that practice if a comparable or superior model was released by a competitor, given that they are at the frontier. That kind of opens them up to, I would say, perpetually kind of avoiding some of their some of their prior policies.

• 21:05John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 21:06Jordi Hays?

  The changes are a dramatic shift from two and a half years ago, when the guardrails Anthropic published guiding the development and testing of its new models, established the company as one of the most safety-conscious players in the space. Anthropic faces intense competition from rivals, which regularly release cutting-edge models. It's also locked in a battle with the Defense Department over how its Claude suite are used after it told the Pentagon it couldn't be used for domestic surveillance or autonomous lethal activities. Anthropic said the safety policy change is an update based on the speed of AI's development and a lack of federal AI regulations. Anthropic, which started as an AI safety research lab, has battled the Trump admin by advocating for state and federal rules on model transparency and guardrails.

• 21:49Jordi Hays?

  The admin has, of course, sought to curb state's ability to regulate AI. The obvious sort of criticism here would be that You were heavily focused on safety when you were far away from, I would say, leading in AI. And so switching up now that like there's actually

• 22:09John Coogan?

  Switching up on their day ones.

• 22:10Jordi Hays?

  Switching up on their day ones.

• 22:11John Coogan?

  The safest.

• 22:12Jordi Hays?

  Now that there's, now that there's real competition.

• 22:14John Coogan?

  Are they forgetting where they

• 22:15Jordi Hays?

  Feels a little, feels a little self-serving.

• 22:17John Coogan?

  It's possible the money changed them.

• 22:19Jordi Hays?

  It's ma- it's possible the money changed them. It's possible they, they always planned to switch up on their day ones.

• 22:24John Coogan?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 22:24Jordi Hays?

  Once they got, uh, once they got to, to the level they're at now. It could just be that they realize like alignment's pretty easy and we don't need to worry about. What's this new study that's showing like they, they were doing some war, war game simulation and, and almost every model was choosing to, to drop nukes?

• 22:42John Coogan?

  Really? That's crazy. That's not good. I don't like that at all. The, the interesting impetus of like thi- this line around, uh, the policy environment has shifted towards prioritizing AI competitiveness and economic growth, while safety oriented discussions have yet to gain meaningful traction at the federal level. I still feel like there's a lack of communication around what safety orientation at the federal level means. Like, yes, okay, we'll pass the bill that says the AIs can't kill everyone. Like,

• 23:11Jordi Hays?

  Well, yeah.

• 23:11John Coogan?

  Obviously everyone supports that, but like, what does it actually mean in practice? Because

• 23:15Jordi Hays?

  I think part of why

• 23:16John Coogan?

  Oh, that's dangerous means million things to different people. Like

• 23:19Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, part, part of why I think it's fascinating is they've been pushing for regulation, as much regulation as possible.

• 23:26John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:26Jordi Hays?

  Seemingly.

• 23:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Jordi Hays?

  And they're kind of saying, hey, we're not getting what we want.

• 23:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Jordi Hays?

  So now we're, now we're just, we're not even going to play by the own set of rules that we created for ourself.

• 23:38John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:38Jordi Hays?

  Because we just want to compete and win.

• 23:40John Coogan?

  Yeah. I mean, like, like going back to the protesters, there are protesters that would say like, like, training on intellectual property is dangerous. It's dangerous to my career as a writer. It's dangerous to my career as an illustrator. And so like this, this question, like danger is just too vague. And, and, and no one has really been able to concretize it in a meaningful way. And I think that's why it's not getting traction on Capitol Hill.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's, there's just like so many ways that you can define safety. Like, so if you read Dario's essays, this thing he brings up over and over is like, okay, we can't let AI get in the hands of like authoritarian government.

• 24:13John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  So there's like a real like safety narrative that you could do, which is that like, Regardless of if our models are like pretty safe, they still need to be better than like China's, for example, because if China gets ahead of us, authoritarian government, right, it's like very bad. So even if, you know, we're releasing models that are less like safe than we would like, as long as they're better than China's, that's still like a safety, pro safety issue, right?

• 24:37Jordi Hays?

  Well, they'll just be distilled within six weeks.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, but like, obviously, like, I would be very surprised if Anthropic keeps like the same like guardrails of like API access.

• 24:48John Coogan?

  Well, Boogaloo Capital bloke has a solution. He says it's simple. We kill Claude.

• 24:54Jordi Hays?

  It's simple. We kill the bat. Well, that was in regards to the SaaS apocalypse.

• 24:59John Coogan?

  Okay, okay. Who knows? There's so many headlines and the timeline moves so quickly.

• 25:05Jordi Hays?

  Anthropic antagonizing the Department of War, the open source community, the entire media industry, the general population, other developers, other labs, foreign governments, and nearly every single person on Earth. What is the plan here? Sell Claude subscriptions to aliens?

• 25:19John Coogan?

  And where it is, it ain't easy having principles.

• 25:23Jordi Hays?

  Hackers use Claude to steal 150 gigabytes of Mexican government data.

• 25:29John Coogan?

  That's crazy.

• 25:30Jordi Hays?

  They told Claude they're doing a bug bounty. Claude initially refused. A hacker just kept asking and manages to successfully steal some documents. Apparently, it's four state governments, 195 million taxpayer records, voter records, government credentials.

• 25:50John Coogan?

  Anthropic investigated the claims, disrupted the activity, and banned the accounts involved. The company feeds examples of malicious activity back into Claude to learn from it. In this instance, the hacker was able to continuously probe Claude until it was able to jailbreak it. I was listening to someone, someone talk about like, I, I like, like, like, the ability to jailbreak has generated me like tens of thousands of dollars in profit. It was kind of like a hustle, like mindset guy. And I was just laughing because whatever you're doing after you jailbreak it is probably not good. And so you should probably stop. But he was talking about like, I can sell so many more courses now that I've jailbroken ChatGPT or whatever.

• 26:31Jordi Hays?

  Duran says not to worry, they'll hit usage limits before anything bad can happen. This was interesting. Rob Wiblin had a guest on his podcast. The guest is talking that, saying, "Every AI lab is working to make their AI helpful, harmless, and honest. The guest thinks this is a complete wrong turn, and aligning AI to human values is actively dangerous. Today, a nominee of determinism because the guest's name is Max Harms."

• 27:01John Coogan?

  Max Harms. I feel like with that name, maybe you gotta go with Maxwell or something. I don't know. Perplexity Computer. Computer.

• 27:09Jordi Hays?

  Computer.

• 27:10John Coogan?

  Computer.

• 27:10Jordi Hays?

  Launch a perplexity computer vibrio.

• 27:14John Coogan?

  What is perplexity computer? Let's pull up this video. Perplexity, the official account, says, "Perplexity Computer. Computer unifies every current AI capability into one system. It can research, design, code, deploy, and manage any project end to end." Okay. Hmm. So, it should be able to get a soundboard app in the App Store, right? Manage any project, code, deploy, design, research. It should be able to do that from start to finish. One prompt, "Soundboard in the App Store, using the TBPN sound effects, which are available online, which we have up there. This is a good benchmark. Let's

• 27:58John Coogan?

  give it a try. And you can give it a try at perplexity. Go check it out."

• 28:01Jordi Hays?

  I'm just very curious to see how this does. It feels like the, again, going from consumer LLMs to a net new product that is objectively just as competitive. And we'll see. Bestsellers on Substack for finance are all doomers.

• 28:21John Coogan?

  We gotta do TBPN.

• 28:22Jordi Hays?

  And of course, Satrini is not in.

• 28:23John Coogan?

  This is so obvious. No, no, this is, yeah, this is, we need to true zone this a little bit.

• 28:27Jordi Hays?

  A doomer.

• 28:28John Coogan?

  He's not a doomer. Very AI bullish. Very AI bull. But definitely shot to the top of virality and top of the charts on the, on the back of doom. I lived this on YouTube. Like, you put a negative title up, and you just get 10 times more views. But they're lower quality, and so you gotta balance all that out. It's really hard to go viral with something like, "Everything's fine. Everything's, everything's going well. Don't, don't worry. Don't click this because you're scared. Click this because everything's kind of the same as it always has been and..." You're gonna be fine. And this stuff's cool, but it's not really gonna change that much. It's gonna be pretty incremental. Like, that is not getting clicks. You need to be telling a tall tale. You need to be spinning a yarn. It's a bull market in yarn

• 29:12John Coogan?

  spinning, folks. Get ready. Get out the yarn and start spinning. So, it's news from

• 29:18Jordi Hays?

  Steven. Get the gong.

• 29:20John Coogan?

  Get the gong. Okay, hit me. Tell me.

• 29:21Jordi Hays?

  Steven over at WAP says, "We're excited to announce that Tether, the largest stablecoin company in the world, is making a strategic investment of $200 million into WAP, valuing us at $1.6 billion. Our partnership with Tether marks a major step in building the world's largest internet market. Tether is committed to enabling everyone in the world to participate in the new internet economy. The way humans work and create value is changing fast. The world needs both an open internet market, giving people a platform to conduct business, as well as a transparent payments network. Fast, cheap, global."

• 29:52John Coogan?

  Exactly. And so, yeah, fast, cheap, global.

• 29:55Jordi Hays?

  Mike Isaac is saying what we're all thinking.

• 29:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 29:59Jordi Hays?

  Ready for this to be over. BBH, talking about the Warner Brothers, Discovery, Netflix.

• 30:05John Coogan?

  It's in the paper every single day. Every single day. Paramount increases Warner bit. We get it. You guys want to acquire this company. Mark Zuckerberg is planning a stablecoin comeback. They also have a banger deal with AMD. And if you head to the bar this weekend and you drink too much, you should just say that you were the victim of a distillation attack. That's the correct turn of phrase. Anyway, thank you for watching. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Have a wonderful day.