Invest Like Warren Buffett & How To Disagree Better

Most of us think we're pretty good drivers. But even experienced drivers develop bad habits without realizing it. Fortunately, a few simple adjustments can make you a safer, more alert driver—and could even help you avoid a serious crash.https://www.nhtsa.gov/road-safety Ask people to name the greatest investor of all time and chances are Warren Buffett will top the list. So what does he know that the rest of us don't? What principles has he followed for decades that allowed him to build one of history's greatest fortunes—and how can ordinary investors put those same ideas to work? Here to explain is John Longo, Professor of Professional Practice in the Finance and Economics Department at Rutgers Business School and Chief Investment Officer of Beacon Trust, a $3+ billion registered investment advisor. He is co-author of the book, Buffett's Tips: A Guide to Financial Literacy and Life.(https://amzn.to/4fjckqZ) No matter how hard we try to avoid them, disagreements are a part of life. The problem is that too many of them quickly turn into arguments where no one changes their mind and everyone walks away frustrated. But research shows there are surprisingly effective ways to disagree that make people more willing to listen, preserve relationships, and often lead to better outcomes. Here with that practical advice is Julia Minson, a behavioral scientist whose work focuses on the psychology of disagreement. Her research has been featured in TIME, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and The New York Times. She is a professor at Harvard Kennedy School and author of the book How to Disagree Better (https://amzn.to/4wHHbEx). Many of us are making a common mistake with modern dishwashers that actually makes them clean worse. It feels like the right thing to do, but it can prevent the dishwasher from doing the job it was designed to do—and waste water in the process. https://www.consumerreports.org/appliances/dishwashers/how-to-load-a-dishwasher-a6704518317/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS WAYFAIR: Ready to upgrade your home for way less? Head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Wayfair.com⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now to shop all things home and get your space ready for less. QUINCE: Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada, too! SHOPIFY: It's time to turn those "what ifs" into CHA CHING with Shopify Today! Sign up for your $1 per month trail and start selling today at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ INDEED: Get a $75 Sponsored Job credit to help get your job the premium status it deserves at ⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/PODCAST⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mike Carruthers?

  I thought I had a pretty good idea of where my money was going. And then I started using Monarch. And it turns out, there's a big difference between thinking, you know, and actually seeing it all laid out in front of you. I've spent some time with Monarch now. I've connected everything and really tested it out. And I like it a lot. Your accounts, investments, savings goals, spending, they're all there in one place. But what really got my attention is Monarch doesn't just show you what's happened. It helps you spot what's happening right now. They have an AI weekly recap, and it can flag a spending spike or a change in your net worth or upcoming expenses,

• 0:44Mike Carruthers?

  things that are surprisingly easy to miss on your own. And I found that once you actually see the numbers, you look at your money differently. If you've ever wondered, where exactly is all my money going? I think you'll find Monarch pretty eye opening. Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code SYSK at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code SYSK.

• 1:22Mike Carruthers?

  Today on Something You Should Know, I'm sure you're a good driver, but there are a few things you could do to be better. Then, want to invest like Warren Buffett? A top money manager explains what's behind Buffett's success.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Early, early years, when he was five or six years old, Buffett would buy packs of gum and sell individual slices. He would buy like a six pack of Coca-Cola or Pepsi and sell individual bottles. Buffett has had a nose for business at a very, very young age.

• 1:52Mike Carruthers?

  Also, something your dishwasher really wants you to know. And did you know the average person would rather go to the dentist than have a disagreement with someone?

• 2:02Speaker 02

  What people are afraid of is what we often think of as conflict, which is, I'm going to tell you just how wrong and misinformed and possibly immoral you are for holding that view. And then, of course, it goes sideways from there.

• 2:17Mike Carruthers?

  All this today on Something You Should Know. There's probably no better endorsement for a company than this. I keep buying their stuff. That's exactly what's happening with me and Quince. It started with their clothes. I've bought sweaters, polos, pants, jeans, shoes, a belt. And Quince has become one of the first places I look when I need something new to wear. And my wife and son buy from Quince too, all the time. What keeps bringing us back is the quality and the price. Quince uses premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, merino wool.

• 2:59Mike Carruthers?

  Their cashmere sweaters start at just $60. And with colder weather coming, they have down jackets and classic wool outerwear as well. Quince prices everything 50 to 80% less than similar brands by working directly with ethical factories and cutting out the middlemen. And it's not just clothes. They have bedding, bath, kitchen essentials, and furniture. We even have Quince pillows. So this isn't one of those endorsements where I try something once because they sent it to me. We shop at Quince, and I absolutely recommend you try it. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 3:42Mike Carruthers?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, please let them know it was Something You Should Know. It's the best way to support our show.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Something You Should Know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

• 4:11Mike Carruthers?

  So I'm sure that you're a fabulous driver. But there are a few things you could do that would make you an even more fabulous driver. So we're going to start with those today on this episode of Something You Should Know. Hi, I'm Mike Carruthers. Thank you for joining me today. So here are a few things that will make you a better driver and a little safer on the road. The first is to don't grip the steering wheel at 10 and 2. That was the old advice. Today, safety experts recommend putting your hands at 9 and 3. It gives you better control during emergency maneuvers and reduces the risk of arm injuries if the airbag deploys. Look farther ahead than you think you need to.

• 4:54Mike Carruthers?

  Good drivers don't stare at the bumper of the car in front of them. They continuously scan 15 to 20 seconds down the road. Seeing potential problems early gives your brain extra time to react, making sudden braking and swerving much less likely. Keep more distance than you feel is necessary. The old one car length rule really isn't enough. Safety experts recommend at least a four second following distance in normal conditions and even more in rain or darkness. It dramatically increases the odds that you'll avoid a rear end collision. And if oncoming headlights are blinding you at night, don't stare into them.

• 5:36Mike Carruthers?

  Instead, shift your gaze towards the right edge of your lane, using your peripheral vision to stay on course. The Auto Club says this simple habit can reduce the temporary blindness caused by today's brighter LED headlights. And that is something you should know.

• 5:58Mike Carruthers?

  Every day, people make investing decisions that quietly cost them thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars over a lifetime. Warren Buffett has spent decades explaining how to avoid those mistakes. Yet, most people never hear or follow his advice. My guest has sifted through Warren Buffett's annual letters, interviews, and public appearances to distill his most practical lessons into simple strategies any investor can understand. John Longo is professor of professional practice in the Finance and Economics Department at the Rutgers Business School. And he's chief investment officer at Beacon Trust,

• 6:39Mike Carruthers?

  a registered investment advisor managing more than $3 billion in assets. He's co-author of a book called Buffett's Tips, A Guide to Financial Literacy and Life. Hey, John, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me, Mike. Glad to be here.

• 6:56Mike Carruthers?

  So Warren Buffett seems to be universally regarded as just brilliant when it comes to investing. Why is it? Why him? What is it about him?

• 7:07Speaker 01

  Well, let's start with his track record. He's worth about $150 billion, and that's after giving almost half his money away. So he has a tremendous track record for investing. Not only that, he's built a number of businesses. His main business that your listeners probably know is Berkshire Hathaway. They're a conglomerate. They own things like Geico Insurance, Dairy Queen, railroads. So he's a businessman as well as an investor. And perhaps most importantly, he speaks in plain English. He speaks in a way that your listener on Main Street can easily understand. So you put all that together, he's quite unique. And he's 95 years old, so he's been around a long time. I would say he's been known on Wall Street, probably the past 40 to 50 years. So you put all that together,

• 7:52Speaker 01

  it's not surprising that Buffett is sort of the oracle of Omaha, they call him.

• 7:57Mike Carruthers?

  His advice, or what he tells people they should do with their money, is not exactly the way he made his money. True?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  There's some truth to that. So first of all, he says, invest within your circle of competence. Everybody knows a lot about something. It could be music, sports, fashion. I mean, there's great stocks in all those areas. Spotify, an example of music. Sports, there's actually Madison Square Garden that owns the Nixon Rangers. Fashion, there's Louis Vuitton. So everybody does have a circle of competence in something. But he also has another piece of advice for people that don't really want to get involved, and that's buy index funds. And as we're speaking today, Mike, the S&P is at an all time high. And think about all the craziness that's happened with the war in Iran and everything else with COVID over the past several years. And here we are with the stock market at an all time high.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  So you put all that together, there's advice there for everybody.

• 8:55Mike Carruthers?

  But also, the advice is to diversify your portfolio. And sure, index funds sort of do that by default. But you're still just in stocks. So isn't his advice to put it in other things?

• 9:10Speaker 01

  Well, he's made his money mostly in stocks, but he's lived in the same house since 1958. It's gone up quite a bit in value. As I mentioned, somebody might have a different circle of competence in different areas. So, real estate, a lot of people have done quite well with. It is risky to start your own business, but if you look at the wealthiest people in the world, many of those people have started their own business. So, I think if you stick within that circle of competence and do what you love and work with people that you admire, that's sort of a good recipe for getting on the path to wealth. And obviously Berkshire has some other things. You might know they're sitting on about $400 billion in treasury bills.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Now, that's not a long-term holding for them, but it is part of diversifying when you don't see some great, great ideas. Using a baseball or softball analogy, he says you don't have to swing at every pitch. So, right now, he's owning a lot of cash, perhaps because there's not a lot of great bargains in the market. At least, that's the way he sees it. So, you don't have to always be fully invested at all times and just look out and stay within your circle of competence and also buy things at a discount. He's known as a value investor.

• 10:20Mike Carruthers?

  Does he give very specific advice and is there a way to follow what he does with his money, kind of dollar for dollar? Or is it much more general, be in the stock market, buy index funds, that kind of thing?

• 10:34Speaker 01

  There's a few things you can do. So, step one is you can buy the company that he runs, or now is the chairman of Berkshire Hathaway. That's been a fantastic stock, up over a million percent since he took over the company in 1965. So, that's step one. You can buy the stock, which is a diversified conglomerate, kind of like buying a piece of America. And I mentioned some of the companies out there that he owns, like Geico and Dairy Queen. Two, as I mentioned, you could sort of buy the S and P index fund. And three, if you want to get into the weeds, there is a form that all investors have to file, at least large investors with the SEC, called Form 13F. And that lists his individual stock holdings. So, if you look at that list, there's Apple, there's Coca-Cola, American

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Express, Chevron. So, I look at those numbers very closely. So, you can get into the weeds if you want, or you can just buy an S and P or global index fund, or simply buy Berkshire Hathaway. And that's how you can kind of follow Buffett.

• 11:32Mike Carruthers?

  But people who have money, and not necessarily even a lot of money, but just money, and they have some sort of retirement plan or something, usually, I think, go to some sort of expert, some investment advisor, who allocates their money in various things, is, according to Warren Buffett, is that unnecessary?

• 11:58Speaker 01

  For many people, it is. So, for example, you mentioned retirement funds. They have something called target date funds. So, as an example, if somebody, let's say, is 25, 30 years old, the bulk of their portfolio would be in equities or stocks. But as they get older, let's say approaching 60 years old, that mix would shift more towards fixed income or bonds. So, that's one simple approach people can do. As I mentioned, if you feel like you know something about businesses, you can also invest in specific funds. But if you have a very complicated situation, things like trusts and estate planning probably come into play. But for your average investor on Main Street, no, you don't need a lot

• 12:39Speaker 01

  of expensive advice. It's sometimes good to have somebody to talk to. There's a whole school of economics called behavioral economics. And a lot of times, people make decisions that are not good for the long-term interest. So, I mentioned the war with Iran going on, or the conflict. Some people may have panicked and sold everything. And as I said, here we are at an all-time high. So, sometimes it's good to have somebody to talk to, to really make sure that you're staying on the right track.

• 13:07Mike Carruthers?

  One of the criticisms of, well, one of the criticisms of people today is that we're not particularly financially literate. We weren't really taught in high school or college, like, you know, how to pay bills, how to write, balance a checkbook, let alone how money works in the investment world. And so, I think a lot of people feel like they don't have the smarts to do this.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  Well, it's a good point, Mike, but I think everybody can start with step one, that is, trying to live within your means. Now, I know that's hard for a lot of people, especially if you have college loans and other things as well. But step one is you got to find a way to spend less than what you earn. So, once you're able to do that step one, then the question is, how am I going to invest my money? Well, certainly, you want to have some money set aside for an emergency-type thing. People say three to six months of living expenses. But let's say you get past that. Well, then having a diversified portfolio, and that could consist of US equities, international equities, and most of these can be done in a mutual fund or ETF. You could have fixed income.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  As I mentioned, you could have real estate investments, besides physical real estate that I know is quite expensive. But that is sort of step one, you know, living within your means, then investing. And two, really not panicking and being a long-term investor. That tends to pay off if you have a long-term horizon.

• 14:38Mike Carruthers?

  But are there some financial principles people need to understand as to how money really works in order to really know what they're doing?

• 14:49Speaker 01

  I think there are some principles. So, everybody out there wants to get rich quick. And generally, it's not possible. You can get lucky. Let's say you invested in Nvidia 10 years ago. You invested in Bitcoin 10 years ago. But for somebody trying to be consistent, it's probably not going to happen in terms of getting rich quick. But you can get rich slowly. And Einstein said, the eighth wonder of the world is the miracle of compound interest. And it does take a while for it to really pay off. But certainly, if you have a horizon of 10, 20 years, you really see the benefits. And it's important just to save a little at a time and not panic, and your money will actually snowball. In terms of maybe investing with some training wheels on, well, first of all, you should

• 15:34Speaker 01

  ask yourself, or look on the various financial websites, whether it's Yahoo Finance or Bloomberg, is the company making any money? Right? A lot of companies have a great story, and they're not really making any money. So, companies that are profitable, if you want companies that are more mature, they might pay a dividend, which is an annual cash flow. You could look at companies, you know, Buffett talks about companies having a moat around the business. That is a barrier to competition. One example he gives is Coca-Cola. Anybody can make soda. It's kind of water and sugar. But Coca-Cola has 100-plus-year history. They're in more than 200 countries around the world. They have great shelf space at the supermarket. They're in McDonald's. So, I think investing in higher-quality companies

• 16:19Speaker 01

  is something where I think you're less likely to get burned, as opposed to companies that promise the world and yet don't have any earnings.

• 16:27Mike Carruthers?

  Well, but isn't the concern that, you know, how much bigger can Coca-Cola get? How much more can the price go up? Because they are everywhere. They've saturated, literally saturated the world in Coca-Cola. And so, doesn't it plateau and not become such a great investment now?

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Well, I would put Coca-Cola, and let's call it the lower-risk bucket, a stock that's less likely to blow up. Coca-Cola today is not the growth stock it was 20, 30 years ago. So, that's just one example, that you can have a mix of more, let's call it, faster-growing companies that are profitable, and then slower-growing companies that are profitable, and then maybe more mature companies, paying like a dividend, maybe like your local utility. And sometimes, it's hard to resist companies that maybe have tremendous growth potential. And sometimes, they pay off. So, think about a young Tesla when the electric vehicle came out. Today, there's a lot of discussion about quantum computing. And really, there's nobody making a lot of money in quantum computing. So, I wouldn't put the bulk of

• 17:29Speaker 01

  my nest egg in quantum computing. But if you're excited about areas, whether it's AI, quantum computing, that have long-term growth potential, well, maybe you can put a small amount and then balance that out with safer companies, whether it's a Coca-Cola-type investment, or simply a diversified S and P index fund.

• 17:47Mike Carruthers?

  I want to ask you, how important you think, and how important you think Warren Buffett thinks, about the price of the stock when you buy it? I think that's one thing people look at when they're thinking about buying a stock. And sure, there are other factors, the company in general, and, but the price of the stock at the time. And we'll talk about that in just a moment. A big thank you to today's sponsor, Vinted. I think most of us have what I call "someday clothes." I'll wear that someday. That'll fit better someday. Someday, I'll have a place to wear that. Meanwhile, it's been hanging in the closet for three years. Vinted offers

• 18:30Mike Carruthers?

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• 19:12Mike Carruthers?

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• 19:30Speaker 04

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• 19:57Mike Carruthers?

  I'm speaking with John Longo. He's author of the book Buffett's Tips: A Guide to Financial Literacy and Life. And John, so when Warren Buffett looks at a company to invest in, how important is the current price of the stock at the time he's looking? Because I think that's what a lot of people look at. So is it important to him?

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely, Mike. So one of Warren Buffett's favorite sayings is that it's great to buy a wonderful company at a fair price. He doesn't say buy a wonderful company at a high price. And some of your listeners may not be familiar with how Wall Street professionals look at price. They don't look at actually the price of the stock. They look at the price in relation to earnings or some type of cash flow. So Berkshire is Class A. He has two classes, Class A and Class B, is literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars per share. But if you look at it on a per cash flow basis, it's actually cheaper than the market as a whole. But yeah, absolutely. And this gets to Buffett in his early kind of years that he learned from this guy Benjamin Graham,

• 21:04Speaker 01

  who's known as the father of value investing. And there's a lot of ways to describe value investing, buying something you think is worth a dollar for 50 cents. Or I like the expression, you can't get hurt if you fall out of the basement. And you can get hurt, but maybe not as much if you're buying a stock that is super inflated.

• 21:23Mike Carruthers?

  What are Warren Buffett's two golden rules if they haven't come up so far in our conversation?

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Well, there's a lot of things that he says. But one is do you stock as ownership in a business? And he learned that from his mentor Benjamin Graham. A lot of people think it's a piece of paper, gambling. That's not, that's not correct. Stock is a tiny piece of a business. If you were as rich as Buffett, would you buy the entire company? If the answer is no, you probably shouldn't buy the stock. Two, I mentioned, stay within your circle of competence. And then one for the market as a whole. One of his most famous quotes is that when others are greedy, he's fearful, and when others are fearful, he's greedy. So at this point, I'd say he's more a little bit on the fearful side.

• 22:04Mike Carruthers?

  You mean just at this moment in time, he's more?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, at this moment in time with the market as a whole, because he's been accumulating almost $400 billion in cash.

• 22:12Mike Carruthers?

  Does he move the needle because he's such a big player? Does what he does affect the market?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So I mentioned these quarterly forms that you have to fill out with the SEC if you're a big investor. And as soon as people see Buffett's changes, the market almost immediately reacts. So one of his more recent calls that's worked out quite well is Google. As you and your listeners may know, Buffett generally does not invest a lot in technology stocks. But he's used their product, the search product. His businesses have used it like Geico. And he felt comfortable with that. And that's been a home run for him. Google, obviously, not only search, but AI, Waymo. They changed their name from Google really to Alphabet because they have all these verticals, including YouTube.

• 23:01Mike Carruthers?

  What is it, do you think, makes him so special? Because a million people claim to be experts in the market. And there have been a few like big players. Like I remember Peter Lynch used to be very well regarded as somebody who could really pick stocks. But why are so few people good at it? And why is Warren Buffett so good at it?

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Good question, Mike. And you're speaking to my heart with Peter Lynch. He was one of my first idols and role models when I was in college and didn't really know about Warren Buffett. Let's go back to Buffett's, I mean, early, early years when he was five or six years old. His grandfather operated a supermarket. So Buffett would buy packs of gum and sell individual slices. He would buy like a six pack of Coca-Cola or Pepsi and sell individual bottles. So step one is that Buffett has had a nose for business at a very, very young age. He had a very large paper route. He owned farmland. This is all before he graduated from college. So that's one thing that people don't really know fully, that Buffett had a great nose for business.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  He, early on, started investing in stocks. And as I said, he really came to understand the discipline of value investing from his mentor Benjamin Graham. Now, this gets to your point about why it's so difficult to continue to perform well. So when Buffett was in his early years, let's call it the 1950s, when he first started managing money, he followed Graham's, a strategy of buying companies at a very deep, deep discount. But as he became more successful and had to put more money to work, he was almost forced to buy higher quality companies. We mentioned Coca-Cola, American Express, Apple. So I think it's, a lot of people out there have one strategy,

• 24:53Speaker 01

  and they're not able to adapt. Buffett has adapted, although in recent years, his performance hasn't been quite as strong, primarily because he's been a little bit underweight technology. But I would say Buffett's knowledge for business and his ability to adapt to a dynamic market are among the reasons why he's been super successful for many, many decades.

• 25:17Mike Carruthers?

  Well, maybe a better way to ask the question is, why isn't, why aren't there a bunch of people being able to be like Warren Buffett? Why is he such a rarity? When it seems like there are other people with interesting business backgrounds? You would think, why is this so unusual?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  Well, part of it becomes a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy that a lot of people go to Buffett with a good deal. So imagine you built your own business. You've built it up for 20, 30 years. You care about your employees. You want them to do well over the long term. Well, you could maybe sell it to a private equity company, and there's a risk that they fire a lot of people and add a lot of debt and risk of the company going bankrupt. Or you can sell it to a company like Berkshire Hathaway, Warren Buffett, sometimes known as a white knight, who largely will keep the company as it is. He very, very rarely fires people. He may allocate capital to faster growing businesses. So one example is that his company owns World Book Encyclopedia.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  I don't think too many people are buying encyclopedias today. Maybe some libraries and people are using Wikipedia. So a business like that, he still owns. But he'll reinvest the cash flow into something faster growing, whether it's a Geico or something of that nature. So he does get a look at a lot of deals. He is willing to act quickly, especially during times of distress. So I know the Great Recession is quite a while ago for some of your listeners, but that was a pretty severe time. The financial system was almost falling apart. And he stepped in and bought Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, GE, which had a large financial arm at the time. So he's willing to act very quickly and decisively when others are panicking. And a lot of people don't have the stomach for that.

• 27:06Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I think it's really great that you've distilled his philosophy and his advice down into this book. Plus filtering it through, I mean, you're no slouch either. I mean, you clearly know what you're talking about. And to filter it through what you know is a really unique way of looking at the world of investing. I've been talking with John Longo. He's a professor of professional practice in the Finance and Economics Department at Rutgers Business School. And he's the Chief Investment Officer at Beacon Trust, a registered investment advisor managing more than $3 billion in assets. The name of the book is Buffett's Tips: A Guide to Financial Literacy and Life. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. John, great job. Thanks. Thanks for being here.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Well, thank you so much, Mike. I appreciate the opportunity and wish you continued success with your podcast. And if I can be of help in the future, let me know.

• 28:02Speaker 04

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• 28:32Speaker 05

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• 29:01Mike Carruthers?

  Have you ever had an argument with someone where somewhere along the way, you stopped trying to solve the problem? And instead, you just tried to win the argument? It happens all the time, whether it's with your spouse, a coworker, a friend, or someone online. Disagreements often become battles that damage relationships without resolving anything. But it doesn't have to be that way. There's a psychology to disagreement. And when you understand what's really happening beneath the surface, you can have difficult conversations that actually lead somewhere. Here to explain how is Julia Minson. She's a behavioral scientist whose work focuses on the psychology of disagreement.

• 29:46Mike Carruthers?

  Her research has been featured in Time, The Atlantic, The Washington Post, and The New York Times. She is a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and author of the book, How to Disagree Better. Hi, Julia, welcome to Something You Should Know.

• 30:00Speaker 02

  Hi, Mike, it's great to be here.

• 30:02Mike Carruthers?

  So something jumped out at me as I was looking over the material about you and your book and all. From a study that I guess you were involved in, that says, "The average person would rather go to the dentist than have a 20-minute conversation with someone they strongly disagree with." And wow, think about that. I mean, that says it all. And I think people relate to that. I mean, disagreements are often something you would just rather avoid.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you know, I mean, it was a fun study. It was a fun study to run because like, everybody gets the disagreement is unpleasant, right? People sort of get that we don't like it. But I wanted to know just how much we dislike it. And so we came up with this whole list of things that people do in their lives. You know, like, you know, playing with like toy trains with a kid and, you know, taking your dry cleaning to the dry cleaner and going to visit an elderly relative and doing your bills and, you know, going to the dentist. And we had this whole long list of things. And we asked people how much they would enjoy doing each of these things.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  And mixed into the list were different types of conversations, including conversations about sort of hot-button policy topics with people you agree with and with people you disagree with. And we found that people's sort of ratings of how they would feel about one of these conversations were equivalent to going to the dentist.

• 31:33Mike Carruthers?

  Do you have a sense, from all the work you've done on this, people don't like conflict and disagreement? Because why? Just because it's unpleasant? Or they fear the outcome? Or what is it that we're afraid of? Because if we had that conversation, we could get this off our plate and move on?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  It's a very important point, right? Because there's a lot of things that are good about disagreement and a lot of things that are beneficial about disagreement. And I think this is where the distinction between disagreement and conflict is an important one. Because, you know, I think of disagreement as, I see it one way and you see it another way. Or I expect one thing to happen and you expect a different thing to happen, right? And those kinds of disagreements are really useful and productive and can actually be sort of like very fun, right? Like, you can sort of debate about how a book will end or, you know, about which sports team is better. Or, you know, if you disagree with me about some, you know, plan we've made at work,

• 32:39Speaker 02

  it may be because you're about to prevent me from making a very, very disastrous mistake, right? So those disagreements can be great. And I think what people are afraid of is what we often think of as conflict, which is, you know, the experience where I decide that like, no reasonable, good, well-informed person could possibly hold the opinion that you just expressed. And I'm going to tell you just how wrong and misinformed and possibly immoral you are for holding that view. And, you know, and then, of course, it goes sideways from there, right? Because if once I tell you that you're like, you know, and not very smart and not very good human being,

• 33:22Speaker 02

  you will likely not appreciate that. And that's when you get sort of like the negative emotions and escalation that we normally associate with the term conflict.

• 33:31Mike Carruthers?

  Well, and this is why I find it somewhat useless to have conversations about very strongly-held things, often political things or, yeah, political things, that I'm not going to change your mind, you're not going to change my mind. The only thing that good will come, the only thing that will come from this is a fight. And so what's the point? Why don't I let you believe what you believe and let me believe what I believe? And just put this off the table?

• 34:04Speaker 02

  I mean, I would say there's sort of three camps in the world, right? There's like the camp of people who just love a good argument, right? Or people who just feel like they own the moral high ground, they get how it really is, and they're going to tell all the rest of us how it really is, right? And so those people just love starting those types of conversations. And then there's kind of the view that you articulated, which is, this is a waste of time, and I don't need this, and I don't want to have this conversation, right? And then there's a bunch of people in between who are sort of ambivalent, who are like, "Well, you know, I really would like to understand,

• 34:45Speaker 02

  like, why Uncle Joe feels this way about, you know, immigrants or about, you know, the environment or about Iran or whatever the case may be." Because like Uncle Joe has had some interesting life experiences and maybe he has something to say. But also, I am very, very weary about having this conversation. And so I think people experience a lot of angst around this.

• 35:09Mike Carruthers?

  So I have friends, I have people in my life who I care about, and we've more or less agreed to not discuss political things. Not because we want to avoid them, but because there's, no one can see an upside into having that conversation. I agree, I'll believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. And we just don't, that's just not on the table for discussion. And, and life is fine. And so I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

• 35:43Speaker 02

  I don't know that wrong is the word to use, but I do see, I guess, a missed opportunity there. Because, you know, there's a variety of versions of this. Sometimes many people believe very different things than you do. And there are people that you respect and care about. It sort of nags at you. You're like, "Well, you know, I know this is a good person and I know that, like, I love them and I know they've always been like a reasonable person, but how could they possibly believe this?" Right? I have certainly had people in my life that made a comment in passing about politics, right? Or about, you know, something happening in the world at the time.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  And I didn't want to, you know, open the can of worms and discuss it. And what I've found is that when I do approach the conversation, I learn things from the other person and I learn things about the other person that kind of make all the puzzle pieces fit. I learn why somebody who is, you know, fundamentally intelligent and loving and caring and thoughtful believes things that I couldn't imagine them to believe. I learned that their perspective is actually far more nuanced and interesting and complex than I maybe initially credited them with. You know, I learned about their sort of life experiences and I normally conclude something like,

• 37:12Speaker 02

  "Yeah, you know, I still disagree, but I kind of get it now. And that was interesting. And now I feel closer to you and like a better-informed human."

• 37:24Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I said something at the very beginning when I introduced this segment. Because I find myself doing this sometimes too, where there's a point in the conversation where you stop trying to resolve anything and instead you try to win the argument.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Right, like, I'm going to educate them. I'm going to tell them how it is. I'm going to tell them that they are sort of following the talking heads on TV and they're not really thinking straight. And if they were thinking straight, here's what, you know, they would believe. And of course, that, you know, that often doesn't go well. And so the question becomes like, what other goals could you have? A very nice goal to have, and when I say nice, I mean, it just leads to better conversations, is the goal of understanding where the other person is coming from, right? So if you go into a conversation and you say, "I am not here to change this person's mind. I am not here to educate them. Like, I'm not here to give them the facts.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  I'm just here to understand why this matters to them, what they think of it, where they learned it, right? Like, what their evidence is." It really changes the trajectory. And what's interesting about it is that, you know, it completely sort of gets rid of that feeling of conflict escalation that these conversations are often characterized by. Because of course, the other person is like, "Oh, my God, like, somebody's listening to me. I love it, you know, like, let me talk more." And the thing that's also, and I think this is a very common misunderstanding, is that setting out to learn about the other person's point of view

• 39:03Speaker 02

  does not mean that you are adopting it, right? Like, I can be very clear about the fact that like, "Look, here's what I believe. Here's my issues with what's going on in the world right now. But I know you disagree with me and I'd love to hear how you think about it." Right? And so...

• 39:25Speaker 02

  You can be very sort of clear about the fact that you are not here to change your mind, you're not here to like reach agreement or compromise or any of those things. You're here to simply understand their perspective because you find it, you know, interesting, or you care about them, or you know, what have you. I think starting out with that mindset of wanting to learn about and from the other person is just tremendously powerful.

• 39:47Mike Carruthers?

  You know, I love that idea. Don't you think it takes a lot of self-discipline not to say, yeah, that's just not right, or that's, that's crazy, or that, to just sit there and go, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, oh, I see how you think that. I would have trouble with that if I strongly disagreed with what I was hearing.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  You know, so that's right. And, you know, I almost want to like turn this on you and ask you why you would have trouble with it, because we have run many experiments where we try to get people to do this. And I am, you know, me and my research team are somewhat at a loss as to, you know, kind of like, what is so hard about this? And we have our theories, and I think, you know, part of it is it really feels quite humbling, right? Because you're sort of putting yourself in a, you know, you're putting yourself in the position of the learner. I want to learn from you about your experience, and that feels, you know, that's a more humble position than let me tell you how it really is and teach you about the world.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  You know, I think that's one thing that people struggle with, and I think the other people think that people struggle with is like, once you ask the question, you actually have to listen to the answer. And that can be very frustrating if the answer is something you disagree with or don't think is accurate. But I don't know, what, what do you think is hard about that approach?

• 41:08Mike Carruthers?

  I think what's hard about it is it's flying in the face, it might be flying in the face of my beliefs, and I have an obligation to stand up for my beliefs. And if I have to stifle my beliefs in order to listen to this without, without disagreeing, that I'm somewhat betraying my own belief system. So I think that's, that's where, that's where the difficulty comes in.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  That's really interesting, betraying. I like the words you used, that you have an obligation to stand up for your beliefs, and it feels like a betrayal. Yeah, I can, I can sort of relate to that feeling. And, you know, what's interesting is that part of the reason that I am so committed to this approach is, you know, again, because we've studied it experimentally. And what we've done is do studies where we send people messages where, you know, there's an argument about, let's say, a policy topic. So we've done a lot of research on, for example, gender-based affirmative action.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  We send you an argument that's for the opposing perspective, but part of that argument is, this is what I believe, but I would love to hear how you think about this issue and why, right? So it's expressing this desire to learn, even though you're also clearly disagreeing. And what we find is that those, the formulation of the argument that also expresses the desire to learn lands better, right? So the person on the receiving side actually finds the argument more compelling. They think of it as sort of more reasonable and more true and like more relevant to the topic than if you just made the strongest version of the argument.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  And so it's ironic, because if your goal is to have your perspective kind of acknowledged and, you know, kind of defend the righteousness of that perspective, you actually are more likely to succeed if you also solicit the other person's perspective. So it's a little bit like, you know, Jedi mind trick.

• 43:29Mike Carruthers?

  Part of this is interesting to me, because I don't know that I've ever done this, that, what you're talking about. So I, I think that's how I would react, that I would have, I would struggle with it. But I, I have to go do it and see. But my sense is that I would want to say, yes, but, but don't, but can't you see, or, you know, those kinds of phrases, that I'm, I'm thinking, like, I need to knock down that argument rather than sit and listen to it. Because, again, because it flies in the face of what, what I believe. But you gotta, I imagine you gotta try it to see and see what happens, because it would

• 44:12Mike Carruthers?

  be an interesting thing to do, to, to really try to do what you're saying and see where that goes.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  So I do this in my classes all the time. So when I teach negotiations at the Harvard Kennedy School, and then I also teach an elective that's entirely about conflict management and disagreement. And one of the assignments I give my students is to go find a person in their life that they strongly disagree with, and sit down and have a conversation with them. And the assignment is that you have to spend 15 minutes trying to understand what the other person believes, right? So this is exactly sort of like what we're talking about, right? And I, I say in the instructions that you can express your perspective, right?

• 45:03Speaker 02

  You don't have to sort of withhold it, but you only get to express your perspective in the service of asking better questions, right? So you can say like, I don't understand this part of what you're saying because of, you know, I've read blah, blah, blah, right? You can't say, I've read blah, blah, blah, and that's why you're wrong. And so they have to do this, and then they have to write a paper about it. And I just, I have students come back to me like year after year, and they just find it very, very surprising what that experience is like. And one of the things they find surprising about it is how different it is than what they normally do.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  And, you know, the 15 minutes is crucial, because I think when you're trying to do this on your own, it's very easy to fall off the wagon, right? Like, you set your good intentions, and then three minutes later in, you're arguing. But if you have to do it for class, and you've been told you have to do it for 15 minutes, then it sort of keeps you honest, and then you have a very, very different conversational experience.

• 46:13Mike Carruthers?

  And so what do those students come back and say if there is a general consensus of, this went better than I thought, this was a nightmare, this was a train wreck, this guy's a jerk? What's, or is it just all over the map?

• 46:25Speaker 02

  The vast majority of the time, and again, we have actually sort of studied this experimentally, it's much better than they expected it to go. And, you know, I have some, you know, sort of memorable examples that are, you know, memorable for different reasons. So I had a woman from Syria in one of my classes, who was an older woman, and she, she decided to have the disagreement with one of her classmates. So she was also in the class, so they were, they paired up together. And that woman was a young Israeli woman. And afterwards, we were sort of debriefing another class, and the older Syrian woman

• 47:08Speaker 02

  raised her hand, and she said, you know, I did this because it was an assignment. And I've lived sort of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict my entire life, like, I know all about it. I didn't think I could possibly learn anything there is to learn about this thing that I haven't, you know, learned over the last several decades of my life. What I found shocking was that I could have lunch with an Israeli, talk about the conflict, and walk away as friends. She was like, that's what I learned. And I thought, you know what? That was a day of work worth doing. Like, that was a good, that was a good workday for me, you know?

• 47:51Speaker 02

  I had another student who came up to me after class once, and she said, she said, "Professor, my mom wanted me to talk to you, and she wanted me to thank you because it was the first time that she's felt heard by me in years." You know, and that almost made me cry, because I have teenage daughters. And so, you know, you can imagine how we get into these conversational habits, and we don't notice them. But when somebody imposes structure that makes you do something different, you know, it can have sort of really, really interesting and powerful effects, right? So my assignment puts my students in a particular situation.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  But you can imagine taking the important features of that situation and implementing them in your own life.

• 48:39Mike Carruthers?

  Well, I like that idea. I like the idea of stating your intention, that, you know, I want to understand your side, rather than I'm here to tell you why you're wrong. It seems like that would have a better outcome. I've been speaking with Julia Minson. She's a behavioral scientist. Her work focuses on the psychology of disagreement. She's a professor at the Harvard Kennedy School and author of the book, How to Disagree Better. And there's a link to her book in the show notes. Julia, thanks for coming on and talking about disagreement in such a nice, agreeable way. Thanks.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  Thanks, Mike. This was a great conversation. I really appreciate being on.

• 49:18Mike Carruthers?

  If you automatically rinse every plate before loading the dishwasher, you're not alone. It feels like the right thing to do, so a lot of us do it. But if you have a modern dishwasher, it may actually make your dishes less clean. Many newer dishwashers have sensors that measure how dirty the water is at the beginning of the cycle. If you've already rinsed the dishes until they're nearly spotless, the dishwasher may decide you don't need much washing and shorten or lighten the cycle. On top of that, today's dishwasher detergents use enzymes that work best when they actually have food residue to break down.

• 50:03Mike Carruthers?

  Scrubbing everything clean beforehand can actually reduce their effectiveness. So the experts say, scrape off the big chunks of food, but skip the rinse. You'll save water, you'll save time, and in many cases, your dishwasher will do a better job. And that is something you should know. If you've never left a review or haven't left one in a while, please leave us a review on wherever you listen, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, whichever platform you listen on. You can usually leave a rating and review, and we read them, we appreciate them, and they do help. I'm Micah Rathers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

• 50:43Speaker 05

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• 51:09Speaker 06

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