448: ONE MILLION DOLLARS. Winner Take All. Submission Fighting with Craig Jones.

Craig Jones talks CJI (Craig Jones Invitational) offering One Million Dollars to the winner. Also, steroids, and his co-ed match with Gabbi Garcia. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 448 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:05Jocko Willink?

  Also, joining us tonight is Craig Jones. Craig Jones is a Jiu Jitsu black belt and a submission grappling practitioner from Australia, who has competed at the highest level in the sport, racked up a bunch of wins against a bunch of incredibly talented people. And he's done all that while maintaining a solid sense of humor and managed to become one of the most recognizable names in Jiu Jitsu, with one of the most recognizable schools in Jiu Jitsu, the B Team out of Austin, Texas.

• 0:42Jocko Willink?

  And recently, he launched what will be the highest paying by a lot grappling competition of all time. The Craig Jones Invitational, CJI, which will take place in August in Vegas, with competitors being paid $10,001 to compete and the bracket winners being paid $1 million, which is a lot of money. And the prize money that has been being offered has brought in the best Jiu Jitsu and grappling competitors in the world. And it's created quite a stir. And we'll get into that. Craig, thanks for joining us, man.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Good to be here. Good to be here.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for swinging by the open mat this morning.

• 1:31Speaker 01

  No worries. This is my first Navy SEAL podcast.

• 1:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. And I know you're fond of that.

• 1:35Speaker 01

  And it is the first Navy SEAL podcast.

• 1:38Jocko Willink?

  I don't know about that, but yeah, the Navy SEAL podcast, listening to Navy SEAL podcasts, taking ice baths, and other recommended protocols for apex predatoring is, I know you're highly fond of those things.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, recovery is big on my to do list.

• 1:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you'll do it later, I guess, at some point.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  Probably. Need to see a doctor after Tijuana fishing.

• 2:04Jocko Willink?

  Right on, man. Uh, thanks for coming by. So a little bit, some people, there's a few people left that listen to podcasts that don't train jujitsu. You, you grew up in Australia, born in 1991. Where in Australia you grew up?

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Adelaide.

• 2:16Jocko Willink?

  Adelaide.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  Like correct pronunciation there as well.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Echo Charles, approved? What'd your, what'd your parents do?

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad was electrician, my mom secretary.

• 2:28Jocko Willink?

  Cool. And at what point did you get into jujitsu? Like, how old were you?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  I would say about 15 years old.

• 2:35Jocko Willink?

  What were you into before that?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Australian Rules Football, a little bit of basketball, surf life saving. Not good at any of those things, unfortunately.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  How'd you find jujitsu? What year was it?

• 2:46Speaker 01

  What year was it? That's a great question. Man, my memory's bad on a week to week basis, but it probably would've been like 2006, around then.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  What, how'd you find it?

• 2:56Speaker 01

  My older cousin, who was a four sharp white belt, was teaching it. So I'd go to his class. It'd be like two people there. I don't, we really didn't have any black belts in the city, nothing. So we're just winging it. I was just watching UFC matches, trying to figure out what was going on.

• 3:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. My first teacher was like a high level white belt as well, but it was 1992. So that was a lot back then. Like if you were a high level white belt, you could pretty much kick anyone's ass. Like it was pretty impressive. So I'm sure your cousin was doing pretty well down there.

• 3:24Speaker 01

  Eventually, yeah. I mean, I never even got exposed to a black belt until purple belt. Like he would get promoted. I'd have to wait for him to get the next belt, for me to get the next belt, but we never, I never even rolled with a black belt for a long time.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  Uh, when did you eventually get like to a school where you had a black belt teacher?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  Um, I moved to Melbourne in 2015 to train with Lachlan Giles. So he offered me, offered me the coveted 6:30 a.m. morning class. So I was able to move to Melbourne and train with him. And then basically was there for two, two and a half years. I'd been purple belt for years. So pretty soon got the brown and then one year later, black belt.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  When you moved there, your sole goal was to just train Jiu Jitsu?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  Avoid real work, basically prolong an existence without a nine to five.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  How many hours a day did you train? At your peak of like hours a day training, how was your peak?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Well, I would teach and train in the morning classes to what was it 6:30, 7:30? I would train in our pro class, which would be 10:30. And then I would go lift some weights, maybe do some private lessons. And then I would teach a night class as well and do some rolling and that. So I'd be like, there'd be a lot of training throughout the day. Far too much, far too much to manage. It's very bad on the body, I think.

• 4:36Jocko Willink?

  Like three hours a day, you think of rolling Jiu Jitsu?

• 4:39Speaker 01

  I would say so, but obviously some of those were the beginning classes, just easy stuff. But some of those rounds were tough.

• 4:46Jocko Willink?

  What's the most hours you ever put in Echo Charles?

• 4:48Speaker 02

  In it one day?

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but consistently.

• 4:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, like the regular, like weights and conditioning in the day and then training at night. But yeah, nothing like that.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  But what about when BJ Penn is training like six hours a day, seven hours a day? You know what I mean? What about those days?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I have none of those days, no.

• 5:09Jocko Willink?

  Did you ever do that, Craig?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Never, never would either.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  I might lie about it.

• 5:15Jocko Willink?

  I, well, I always would tell MMA fighters that you can train Jiu Jitsu like a lot. And if you roll kind of chill, you can roll more, don't you think?

• 5:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:27Jocko Willink?

  And you can still get a lot out of it?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Pulling guard, yeah, you could do a lot of that, you know, but if you have to wrestle, then.

• 5:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, wrestling is different. Wrestling is different for sure.

• 5:37Jocko Willink?

  But that's what you did. You moved out to Melbourne so you could get good at Jiu Jitsu and avoid having some sort of actual job.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Avoid responsibilities. That's largely the goal I had then, and that's what's driven me to this point now. Where I'm basically a male feminist fighting for equality against the greatest women's grappling champion of all time, Gabby Garcia.

• 5:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is the, this is the match that you have coming up.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  This is the match coming up, probably the biggest challenge of my entire career. 10 time world champion, she can't even count to 10, but she's a 10 time world champion. She weighs 250 pounds minimum, me 185 pounds soaking wet. I'm 5'11", she's 6'4".

• 6:16Jocko Willink?

  And that's gonna be the match take, one of the matches taking place. Is that the only super fight?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  We have that one and we have Mackenzie Dern versus Fionn Davies.

• 6:25Jocko Willink?

  Ooh.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  So the two biggest women's matches in history.

• 6:30Jocko Willink?

  Nice. Uh, when did you start? So when did you start competing hardcore? When did you come to the States to compete?

• 6:36Speaker 01

  Oh, good question. I mean, I came way back in like 2013, 14. That's when I visited Victory. But I would come as like a tourist and then do some tournaments, celebrate, party afterwards, you know, but in terms of serious competition. I mean, I would do Worlds and stuff. It's like a tournament anyone can enter, you know? I guess EBI, when I first did EBI, which would have been 2017 was the first serious US sort of event I did.

• 7:02Jocko Willink?

  That, then, did you go from there to ADCC?

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did the, what did I do? I did the EBI middleweights, then I did ADCC and then I did the EBI absolute. That was the year I probably had the biggest sort of breakout.

• 7:16Jocko Willink?

  When you did the ADCC, is that the 2017 you submitted like Leandra Lo and?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Leandra and Marillo. I did 2015, but um, I did the one in Brazil, lost immediately first round to Homelabahal. But I just was in it for the free vacation to Brazil. 2017 took it a little more serious.

• 7:36Jocko Willink?

  You lost to Keenan, right?

• 7:38Speaker 01

  I lost to Keenan.

• 7:39Jocko Willink?

  And Zhongzhe?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. He did a little slippery thing on the restart, but I forgive him for it. And I also lost to.

• 7:46Jocko Willink?

  What did you learn from the slippery thing on the restart?

• 7:49Speaker 01

  Um.

• 7:50Jocko Willink?

  What did he do?

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Well.

• 7:52Jocko Willink?

  In your opinion. He's not here to defend himself.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  I feel free to attack him because he was attacking the CJI because it coincides with this Hall of Fame speech. So we'll circle back and attack him for this restart. But I like, I went for a leg entry, I think. And then as he escaped, he sort of fleed the mat and I got a body lock and we put him into a turtle position. And then the referee started us back up. Then he wouldn't let me lock my hands. And then he's kind of turned around before the ref said go. So I should have been more of an asshole and assisted on my grips. But that's not my style. Then I showed a flying triangle and lost points for it.

• 8:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  But we risked it all for.

• 8:27Jocko Willink?

  For glory.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  For the highlight reel.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Were you still living in, on that run? Were you still living in Australia?

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I was still in Melbourne. I'd been in Melbourne for about a year at that point.

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  When you, would you, would come to the States? Did you feel like the level was gonna be better for your training here?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  At that, I mean, after that point, I mostly just tried to make as much money as possible doing seminars. And then I realized just doing seminars not good for my competition record. So then I needed somewhat of a home base. So I went to New York, just everyone was no G focused to Henzo Grace's, just him at the best spot, had John, had the full DDS crew there.

• 9:03Jocko Willink?

  What was the welcome aboard there like?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  What was the welcome? I mean, it was pretty friendly. What was funny was I competed against Gordon at the EBI event, and we both were doing Kasai the next week. And that was when I popped his arm. And then he ended up choking me with the same arm, the bastard. But the next week, we arrived at Kasai, and I was just winging it. Like, I would just put on Instagram, well, I need a coach for this event. So that's how I had Denny Prokopos in my corner for the EBI. Again, he's saying words that I didn't even know what they mean. You know, I was having, it was distracting my opponent. But then at Kasai, there was like four locker rooms, and they just threw me in the locker room with Danaher's entire team. So I was like, this is strange. We just had the match last week, and now I'm in the Lions down with them. But it was pretty friendly. And then I just went and trained with them the next week.

• 9:46Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you live when you went to New York?

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Where'd I live? I lived in Harlem, Brooklyn, and then ultimately I moved to Hoboken.

• 9:54Jocko Willink?

  Did you get a green card? Like, how did you get over here? How did you stay there? Was it just all illegal alien activity?

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I still don't, I'm still illegal alien. Every time I enter, I come to the Mexican border, waltz right across. They look at me, they think I'm hiking.

• 10:11Jocko Willink?

  How long did you, do you spend, you stayed there? What was that, 2019 that you moved to there, to, uh, Donaher?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I did probably two and a half years in Melbourne, two and a half years with, uh, Donaher's crew before I just destroyed the gym from within, like a spy. And then beat him from then on out.

• 10:29Jocko Willink?

  When you were training with, uh, Donaher, did you up your hours of training when you were there or no?

• 10:35Speaker 01

  We are, good question, actually. It was kind of, um, when we're in New York, it was much more organized because he had to rely on Henson Gracie's schedule to a certain extent. Class on the schedule said it started at twelve, it started at twelve forty-five. He would be on time, forty-five minutes late every session. So I think we'd do two a days, three days a week, one a day, three days a week. And if you were lucky, he'd give you Sunday off. I'd always take a rest day. I'd insist on that rest day. And then when we went down to Puerto Rico, the schedule was open. Like, he could use the gym anytime he wanted. So sometimes those classes would be like over three hours, just way too much, just for me, killing me.

• 11:16Jocko Willink?

  Did you start breaking down physically or just get bored?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  In New York, I would get staff every month, every month. I think that's like a bit of overtraining as well. I think everyone's got a different sort of workload they're capable of. For me, mine's at the very bottom.

• 11:31Jocko Willink?

  Minimum.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  That's where I'm optimized.

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  So then you guys all took off and went down to Puerto Rico?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, we went down.

• 11:39Jocko Willink?

  And when you were in Puerto Rico, you're saying that some of the classes would be three hours long? And it was in the middle of COVID and you just had nothing to do but jujitsu?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, I, I loved Puerto Rico. Puerto Ricans hated me. That was a real big hurdle for us down there. You know, like, uh, I, I think they think I'm down there dodging taxes, super rich. Unfortunately, not, that was not the case, but that's the, that's the vibe I felt like, uh, we gave, we gave down there.

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  Then who left, who left Puerto Rico first?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, this is, this is where the story gets weird, you know what I mean? Because it's like, we were in Puerto Rico, we all universally kind of, kind of wanted to leave because it's, it's just hard to have responsibilities down there. It'd be awesome if you lived in that bubble, they call it, which is like the Dorado Beach, Ritz Carlton Hotel combination, and you had like an assistant that would go do everything for you, but like, you have to live in a regular apartment down there and do, run your own errands. You don't know how long that's gonna take, you know, like they'll send you on a wild goose chase. I remember I didn't have keys to my mailbox and you'd think, oh, wow, that must be an easy thing to get. Not easy at all. I asked the apartment building, they're like, we don't know. I asked the owner, he's like, we, I don't know. I asked the landlord, I don't know.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Everyone just keeps sending you a different direction. Turned out what I had to do, which should have been obvious, was buy a new lock for the mailbox and wait until the mailman arrived and then we changed the lock together. You know, so it's like that sort of level of chaos was too much for me. I had to get out of there.

• 13:13Jocko Willink?

  And, and did you know you were going to Texas?

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we wanted to go to Texas because Flow Grappling was there and it was also central. Like if we compete, if we were in New York, we'd have to travel to California to compete, it'd be a bit annoying. During COVID, there were tons of grappling events with Flow Grappling in Austin, Texas. Unfortunately, nowadays they're putting them in these random Texas cities because I think they were getting really good discounted deals on the whatever venues they hired during COVID because no one else wanted them. Now we're in Austin, but most of the shows are in other parts of Texas.

• 13:48Jocko Willink?

  When you, so there's this big split up with Don Herd Death Squad and you guys, and you end up with your crew. And did they, did you guys all know that you were all gonna end up in Texas or was that just a weird awkward thing that just happened?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Well, honestly, Danaher and Gordon were the ones making good enough money to probably justify living in Puerto Rico and dodge those taxes, you know what I mean? So when the team split up, we just didn't know for sure whether they would just stay there because they really did want to open a gym there. So when, then we decided we'd move to Texas because we had a gym available to us, basically turnkey operation. And then they-

• 14:27Jocko Willink?

  Whose gym was that?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  Uh, by business partner Seth Bilal, he's running the CJI with me.

• 14:30Jocko Willink?

  Got it, got it.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  But basically then they followed suit, so we all ended up in Texas anyway. Very, oh, Austin, Austin, Texas, it's strange. They're north side, we're south side, so we don't cross paths too much.

• 14:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  In that time, are you feeling like your jiu jitsu is getting better? Um, you're still improving, you're still training all the time. You end up with, uh, with freaking Nicky Rod and, and Nicky Ryan. Have you, you put together the B team's freaking badass?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like, uh, we didn't know who was going to go with who initially. It ended up basically being the original TDS crew minus Eddie Cummings, wherever he is. So Gordon, Gary, John all stayed, uh, together. They kept Taza. Some of the guys that stayed were like, oh, you can keep them. Some people were sad they didn't come with us, but you know how it is when the team splits up. Yeah. So we had Nicky Rod, Ethan, Nicky Ryan, Damian Anderson. He hesitated and he stayed with them for a little bit and then came over later. But yeah, everyone's, both of us got pretty big teams now. John just rebuilt, hired in some new guns, brought in Marigali, the Brazilian.

• 15:39Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, they're kicking ass too. Cool. And so this, so now you're, you're doing all kinds of competition at this point. You got freaking.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. You said, well, do I feel like I'm improving? I mean, my goal is always just to sell instructional. So like I'm motivated by creativity to see avoiding the instructional market because that's the biggest cash cow. So in terms of improvement, I measure in, can I hit moves that'll sell in instructional?

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Rather than the overall art of the sport.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  You're not about the art, you're about the money.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  About the money for sure. The little money. Uh, yeah, I'm in the wrong spot for money.

• 16:13Jocko Willink?

  When you were doing, like, what were you doing for money in New York? What were you doing for money in Puerto Rico?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  Just seminars.

• 16:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. You were, you know what's awkward enough is I didn't know what OnlyFans were. You're the first person that I knew that I heard of OnlyFans on. I know that's a, I'm a, look, I'm a 50 year old married man, dude, like.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  That's a stoic dude.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  So I I see you with like this OnlyFans thing and I didn't really know what it was. And then I very quickly figured it out. I go, Joe. Yeah, yes.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Well, that's actually the the secret funder of the tournament is that me and Gabby's collaboration will make the $3 million investment back. Betting on myself for that.

• 16:54Jocko Willink?

  So you used to, but you were kind of early into OnlyFans, right?

• 16:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, to be honest, I shouldn't say this now because they could still sue me, but I thought it'd be funny to sell Raskas. It said to subscribe to me on OnlyFans and then they were really successful and I was like, shit, they might sue me. And I'm like, what if I start an OnlyFans and I'm just marketing my own position on their platform?

• 17:14Jocko Willink?

  But isn't that what OnlyFans is for?

• 17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I was selling clothing with the logo on it.

• 17:18Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  But then I thought, hey, if we're on the platform, is it still copyright infringement, you know?

• 17:25Jocko Willink?

  Did they ever come at you?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Not yet, but maybe I'll.

• 17:27Jocko Willink?

  Probably they will now.

• 17:31Jocko Willink?

  But you were doing instructional on OnlyFans?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would do anything, honestly. A lot of the time, if people pay me the money, I'd do anything. A lot of the time they pay me to send direct insulting messages to their training partners. So I'd be like, hey, can you send this Instagram hand away direct message? And I just send them a video message assaulting them, telling them everyone in the gym hates them.

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  How much would you make for a insulting video?

• 17:54Speaker 01

  It started at $50 a video, but I had to put up to 100 because I guess how many people hate their training partners? That'd be most of it.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  And you would you come up with your own original material for these insults?

• 18:03Speaker 01

  They'd give me a little, a couple hints. So it'd be a real, real personal attack on them.

• 18:10Jocko Willink?

  I get that too. Some people will get me to, you know, hey, can you, hey, my buddy, you know, Fred's not here. He was supposed to come out, but he chickened out at the last minute. Can you tell him, you know, can you talk some shit to him? And they'd get all fired up for me to tell their buddy Fred that, you know, hey, we're down here training. Where are you at? You're weak. Boom. And they're all fired up. I don't charge them money for it, but I guess I'm not that smart.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Doing it for the love of the game.

• 18:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just for the love of the game, for the love of talking. It is a weird thing though, right? Talk smack to my friends. I don't know, but it works.

• 18:41Jocko Willink?

  We like, so is that where you got, that's where you made your money from?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  That and the instructions, mostly the instructions.

• 18:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. So BJJfanatics.com.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, those guys.

• 18:50Jocko Willink?

  Actually, I counted your instructional the other day. You have 26 videos on on BJJ.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  I'm running out of ideas now.

• 18:55Jocko Willink?

  BJJfanatics.com.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  That's all the moves I've got.

• 19:00Jocko Willink?

  BJJ Fanatics.com, they have, it's so awesome that you could, imagine if you had had that back in the day when you were in Adelaide, Australia? And you're learning from a four stripe white belt.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it would have been sick because I couldn't have afforded them, but I would have illegally downloaded them.

• 19:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they would have figured something out. It's unbelievable. You can do that now, that that exists. We used to have to, because I'm older than you. And we.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  I had the books too. I used to read the books.

• 19:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we had the books, but we had the Gracie in action videos. And we had the UFC, like, there's like six videos of UFC. Should watch those. But you really couldn't tell too much of what was going on in those early UFC's. We weren't getting a ton out of it, but nowadays with BJJ Fanatics and all the other online instructional's, OnlyFans with Craig Jones.

• 19:51Jocko Willink?

  Do you do, do you do instructional's on there though? Are you like, hey, here's an armlock escape or whatever?

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Haven't, I'm gonna start doing it again. We're talking, we're trying to talk him into sponsoring our event because like, it'd be a good, good to have there. Participate in the Gabby Garcia match in some regard, you know, especially as a collab afterwards, but I might end up back on the platform. I'm trying to decide between that and Patreon for some sort of behind the scenes. I'll still put the full instructional's out. Behind the scenes stuff on the travels that maybe keep it behind a paywall somewhere.

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that'll work. So you're doing, but you're still competing. Do you, do you enjoy competing?

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 20:29Speaker 01

  I don't really like it at all. It's hard. Well, I'd rather get paid to do other things, you know? A lot of pressure.

• 20:35Jocko Willink?

  And you've racked up some serious second place wins over the years.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Every tournament there is. I've got a silver medal.

• 20:42Jocko Willink?

  You've, what, you've, you've been the champion of like Polaris. You've been, you've won some championships.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:49Jocko Willink?

  But you've also have won some significant second place matches.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  More famous for the losses, you know, those are really it. And that's obviously last ADCC, I was in the final against Kynan to watch. I don't know if you remember that one.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm trying to think, what happened in it?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  They gave him 24 negative points. And I still couldn't win. So that's when I was like, this organization must be corrupt. I need to start.

• 21:09Jocko Willink?

  You got 24 negative points?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  I think it was 12 or so. They really tried to give me the win and that's something I, I won't stand for.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Um.

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  Submission Underground with Kale Sonnen, you've done, or Chael Sonnen, you've done that.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I won so many matches on there and then he goes, you know what, you can face Mason Fowler and we'll give the winner a belt. Bang, lost immediately. There's something on the line, I lose.

• 21:35Jocko Willink?

  How about Combat Jiu Jitsu? You did that against Donald Seroni.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  I did that. Yeah, I did that against Cowboy. We did, um, we went down to Mexico for that and, uh.

• 21:43Jocko Willink?

  You're a lot bigger than he is, aren't you?

• 21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's why I picked the match. Gotta be strategic.

• 21:50Jocko Willink?

  Did you just watch Glover?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Watch Glover?

• 21:53Jocko Willink?

  Against, uh, Jeff Glover.

• 21:54Speaker 01

  Oh, against Uriah. I missed it. How did that go?

• 21:57Jocko Willink?

  Um.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Isn't Glover banged up though?

• 21:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean Glover's banged up. You could see that one of those two individuals has been training MMA for a long time and like wrestled and, you know, I love Glover, like he's a friend and he's freaking, his jiu jitsu is phenomenal, but you know, you gotta train for a match like that, literally train for a match like that. It's a different thing. And I, I heard Glover afterwards, he's, he said he was so freaking exhausted, you know, five minutes into it. He, he put a darts on him, like he had some stuff on him. And look, Uriah is obviously dude, he's a freaking, a champion in his own right, but it was a bummer to watch and you need to train for that. I mean, basically Jeff went in with

• 22:42Jocko Willink?

  pure jiu jitsu and you know, Jeff's, what's Jeff, 40? I think Jeff is 40.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Something like.

• 22:49Jocko Willink?

  I don't know how Uriah is not.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Uriah's older.

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, he might even be older, huh?

• 22:53Speaker 01

  It feels like it. I don't.

• 22:54Jocko Willink?

  They're, they're a similar age, but you know, Uriah was a UFC athlete for his, basically his whole adult life and.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Probably a healthier lifestyle too. I'm just gonna hazard a guess there.

• 23:06Jocko Willink?

  It's possible. I would say, yeah. Yeah.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  No last thoughts for Jeff Glover, I don't think.

• 23:11Jocko Willink?

  No, Jeff, Jeff's lived the full life, you know?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I respect that.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  Jeff's jiu jitsu's sick.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Sick.

• 23:17Jocko Willink?

  It's so sick.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Deep off guard, sick. I miss Bill Cooper too. Bill Cooper and him back in the day.

• 23:22Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. Those guys were freaking awesome. And actually Bill's still like competing right now and obviously Jeff is too. Jeff is crazy, unorthodox, flexible, like weird, like it's weird.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, he needs to, I don't know how he translates that to instructional sales. That might be targeted at the, the girlfriend market of a jiu jitsu athlete. I appreciate that.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  Uh, how about coaching on the Ultimate Fighter? You did that too. How, how was that? How'd you like that?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  That was fun, but I don't really enjoy MMA coaching because it's so like, I don't know. MMA is so violent, you know, it's like your friends, like when you become attached to those. I mean, there's no consequences in jiu jitsu. What's the worst that could happen? But when it's your friends and stuff like that, I don't know. It's hard where you see get knocked out or something bad happen. So like in terms of the MMA coaching, it feels much, much more serious. And it's also much, many more consequences there. So it's like I, I steer clear to coaching a lot of MMA guys just because of that.

• 24:21Jocko Willink?

  Do you, but you enjoy coaching Volk?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. Well, and he's obviously a personal friend as well. So it's like, I love that aspect of it, but also it is horrible when your guy loses way, way worse than taking a jiu jitsu.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dude, getting hit in the head and knocked out is rough for your life. And it's different for different people, by the way, too, because some people get knocked out a bunch of times and they grow up and they get old and they're fine. Some people, it really does a lot of damage to them. How about being on the TV show and everything? What was that like?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I mean, they learned quickly to keep me off the air as much as possible. Definitely didn't appreciate some of the humor. So I was in the background there, but.

• 25:03Jocko Willink?

  Edited a lot of Greg Jones content from that, from that event.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, they got angry because I was fucking with the COVID test as well at the time. Like we pretended to put Ortega's test up our ass, but

• 25:14Speaker 01

  they did not like that. They wanted to fine me for that.

• 25:17Jocko Willink?

  What do you do with the COVID test?

• 25:19Speaker 01

  That was the back of the throat one. So intimate exposure.

• 25:25Jocko Willink?

  So they didn't like that too? Did it make the show or no?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  No, they cut it out and they told me not to post it on social. So they'd kick me off the show.

• 25:32Jocko Willink?

  The man.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  Should I, I should ask for forgiveness, not permission.

• 25:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were a little slow on that one.

• 25:41Jocko Willink?

  So back to ADCC 2022, you you you losing the fourth round. And did that leave a bad taste in your mouth like worse than normal because that finals or what?

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Like, no, I'm pretty accepting of defeat.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  I'm totally okay with it. I ended up doing the 99 that year because I had two teammates in the 88. And if I had done the 88 kilos, it would have been, uh, those two guys would have had to face off first round. And I also looked at 99, I said, that might be easier. So I tried to stack on the weight for it. And kind of just, I had Marigold.

• 26:18Jocko Willink?

  How much did you weigh going into it?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I think 215. And some of those.

• 26:23Jocko Willink?

  What's your walk around weight?

• 26:25Speaker 01

  I don't even know right now. I might even check the scales now. Probably 205, 210, fluctuate around there. The 215 back then was a bit of a more juiced up, ready for ADCC 215. It was a Gabby Garcia-esque posture.

• 26:39Jocko Willink?

  How, how, how long before a competition do you go on, uh, steroids?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  I would just stay on always.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Like, well, you know what I mean?

• 26:50Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever see a doctor or whatever? Or do you just kind of play it by ear?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  They reach out to me from time to time about the blood pressure. Now I'm actually in between testosterone replacement therapy sponsorships. So I was on Evertite in Texas and now we can't announce it yet, but I've moved to a national brand of TRT.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  How much better do you feel when you do it?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Oh, incredible.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  How old are you?

• 27:13Speaker 01

  33.

• 27:15Jocko Willink?

  You feel incredibly better.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, much better, much better. Cause I feel like, uh, if your diet's poor, your sleep's poor, your lifestyle's poor. If you're on TRT, those testosterone levels never change. You know what I mean? Bad diet, testosterone will stay the same. And that's the stability we want in life. Yeah. Cutting corners.

• 27:36Jocko Willink?

  So you're, you're, can you, is it just like, uh, I had, I had a friend that.

• 27:43Jocko Willink?

  Was in um was like a cyclist and he said when when when someone's a cyclist and they're on it is like a different it's like a different kind of human being. Do you feel like that much better when you're on it?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  For me, I do so many things that bring me below baseline. I feel like it just equals me out of it.

• 28:00Jocko Willink?

  Feel like you break it's a break.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like it just gives me back to, you know what I mean, that middle ground, middle of the road. I feel, I mean, some guys will say they inject their filler that day. I feel nothing. I can, sometimes I'm lazy. I forget to inject it, you know, I feel no different.

• 28:17Jocko Willink?

  Was this anybody but were the people in Texas were guiding you down?

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh yeah, we had a protocol for sure. My basic protocol was um tests, uh cypionate, a little bit of deca. Not too much because you get the infamous deca dick and then Anava as well. I throw in some Anava from get spicy from time to time.

• 28:39Jocko Willink?

  It's like uh uh just the basic, the basic stuff.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Bit of Cialis for blood pressure is good too. Obviously, I'm not taking enough. Blood pressure's sky high.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  What do they say about like your long term health?

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Well, here's the thing, right? When we transferred to the new TRT, they were like, listen, we need to give you a battery of tests. Make sure you're not going to die on us during the sponsorship.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Or wellness center.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  Did you see the Ronnie Coleman on that's that was my reference was Ronnie Coleman on Joe Rogan where Joe was like asking him what kind of steroids he took back then. He's like, oh, no, just just the basic stuff. Just deca test, winst, like he just kind of went down the just the basics. I was like, damn.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  The craziest one's halo testing.

• 29:22Jocko Willink?

  What is this now?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  That's the strongest steroid out there.

• 29:25Jocko Willink?

  What's it called?

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Halos, halo testing.

• 29:28Jocko Willink?

  And what is it? Have you tried it?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  I've tried it, yeah.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  What does it do?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Um, it'll actually make your dick bigger, but also if you take it too long, you got liver failure pretty quick. So you gotta be careful on it.

• 29:37Jocko Willink?

  And you and you've tried it?

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it didn't work for me.

• 29:41Jocko Willink?

  When you say it didn't work for you, what do you mean? Like you didn't feel anything?

• 29:45Speaker 01

  No, no, obviously it worked in that sense, but yeah, I've tried it before.

• 29:49Jocko Willink?

  All about making your dick big.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:50Jocko Willink?

  Dick same size.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Lost size, actually, I think. No, um, worked for Gabby, but.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  Nah, I try to, I try to, but I mean, some of those bodybuilding things are just for bodybuilding, you know, like you take that, you try to do any cardiovascular exercise, it's not gonna be

• 30:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Too conducive. Like, some guys taking tren out there, like, I know a former teammate of mine would love a bit of tren.

• 30:13Jocko Willink?

  Have you tried tren?

• 30:14Speaker 01

  I've not tried tren, no. That's the one I haven't tried. That sounds a bit too crazy.

• 30:18Jocko Willink?

  I, I've heard it's pretty crazy and Echo Charles and I send memes to each other back and forth and reels and whatnot about tren.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  I heard it makes you gay. I had some about that in Thailand. Have you had this?

• 30:28Jocko Willink?

  No. I have not heard of that.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  I heard there's a correlation between tren in Thailand and interesting ladyboys.

• 30:33Jocko Willink?

  Interesting. Okay.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  We don't know any tren for that interest though, you know?

• 30:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Jocko Willink?

  So, so at what point did you get the idea for CJI? Cause this is a pretty revolutionary thing going on. The, um, you know, one of the reasons I was asking you about money and how you made money was because jiu-jitsu, I've had this conversation with quite a few jiu-jitsu, like, top level guys in the world. I remember I had this conversation with, with Dean Lister, with Jeff Glover. I was like, Jeff, if you were this good at basketball, you'd be a, you know, you'd be worth a hundred million dollars. If you were this good at whatever, football, you'd be worth a hundred million dollars. Unfortunately, you're just really good at jiu-jitsu and that's why you're living in your van, Jeff Glover. You know, like, he's one of the best of all time.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 31:23Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know, just don't make much money from it. So this, what you've put together is a total game changer. And I heard the Rotolo was talking about it, you know, you started about injecting a million dollars. That's how much money people make in their whole lives in a normal job. They make that money in 30 years in a normal job. So this is a, uh, it's a game changer for the sport.

• 31:49Jocko Willink?

  When did you come up with the idea for it?

• 31:51Speaker 01

  Honestly, I think it was, uh, I was in Dubai for Karate Combat. And I was talking to the investor, he, he's not in Dubai, but we were just on the phone. He's just like a friend of mine. And I was like, uh, so what started the beef was people kept asking me if I was doing ADCC. And I said, well, you win four matches against the best in the world, you get $10,000. I'm like, that's hard to be motivated to do a training camp, put myself through more hallowed testing and all these other substances. So I just wanted a bit more compensation and my thoughts were if Floe grappling can pay seven plus figures for the streaming rights and they can sell 10, 11,000 seats. Surely they could pay us some more money.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  So that was my first sort of, that's the frame of reference I was coming at. And then

• 32:41Jocko Willink?

  And this is the conversation you're having with the investor for Karate Combat?

• 32:44Speaker 01

  So I had this, I put this in a YouTube video because people kept, kept asking me. And then the response to that was basically Seth Daniels, who's ADCC organizer, Mo Jassam, sort of right-hand man. Was like, basically you're an idiot, you don't know what you're talking about. Like T-Mobile, which is the new venue, costs $2 million for the weekend. So he throws that out there like an idiot and we were like, well, why would you spend $2 million on a venue for, for a jujitsu competition? And that's when sort of the back and forth started going down, obviously a lot of emotions. I'm over there for Karate Combat, I'm thinking of ways to just provoke them into having to pay more money. So I thought, you know what I'll do? I'll do a seminar, week of ADCC.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  And I'll give the money, the proceeds of that to the guys that lose on the first day of ADCC because they get no money. If you lose on day one, zero dollars, you walk away with zero dollars. So I told my, uh, friend this and he's like, how much prize money? He's like, let's just fucking put our own tournament on the same day. That'd be funny. And that's basically where it started. That's, that's its origins.

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  And you end up getting a big investment.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Big investment, yeah.

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  Of what, three million dollars?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Three million dollars.

• 33:53Jocko Willink?

  Is this person like a, are they known? Or are they like a?

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Not a, not a famous investor. Just anonymous, giving it to us, giving me too much power with this money, I think, and then you just do it.

• 34:04Jocko Willink?

  I know, this is almost like a weird movie where just give some random crazy guy three million dollars and let's see what happens.

• 34:12Speaker 01

  The best is Seth Daniels, literally was like, if you don't like ADCC, get your own two million dollars and run your own event. And I was like, well, fuck it, now we're on. Yeah. That's sort of started the whole thing. And well, I mean, we all still love ADCC, like the history is so, uh, so cool. It's like the, the history of no gi grappling really, except it's just that the, in my opinion, the latest promoter is just wasting money on things that weren't important while saying he couldn't afford to pay the athletes more money. The women's, uh, there were two women's divisions. They would get six K, men would get 10 K.

• 34:43Jocko Willink?

  To win?

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Those were the win. To win, to win. Yeah. And the women's divisions were only eight people instead of 16. So then they kept saying, I didn't know what I was talking about. And then as soon as we started, their competitors started jumping ship, seeing the million instead of the $10,000 and a medal. They had to change something. So the first thing they did was they raised the women's pay to that, to being equal of men's. And he did it easily after saying that he couldn't do it. And then they started paying secret, different amounts of show money. So the prize money is 10K. Then show money started going out, which is something they've never done before. And that's completely the, I guess, the promoter, Mo's, it's within his realm of responsibility to do that.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  But then the problem with that is if you start giving now different people, different amounts of show money, someone like me is going to hear about that and tell all the other competitors to now ask for more money.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  So when you say show money, that's the money to show, to show up, right?

• 35:40Speaker 01

  That's what we did with ours. They get 10K to win. You get $10,001 to participate in our event.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, cuz it's cuz it's more.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  Just a little bit more, yeah.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 01

  But he's, as far as I know, allegedly, some of those guys are getting six figures show money, which is so crazy because the prize money is 10.

• 35:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  So you get maybe 100K to show, 10K to win.

• 36:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  It's it just raised the prize money, you know what I mean, like, it's hilarious.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and then you earn it, right? Cuz, look, I don't want to even get hurt, but if I'm already getting 100K to show up and you catch me in a freaking heel hook, I'm just gonna be like tapping like, okay, I'll get you next year or whatever.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, damn, less than 10K.

• 36:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but if there's 100 grand on the line, then I'm probably gonna go a little bit harder and maybe lose my ACL or whatever, but

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  but I can get surgery on that, right? Um, rules, let's talk about, let's talk about these rules that you got going on in this. It's, who came up with the rule set?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  I felt like the thing I did mostly, yeah.

• 36:41Jocko Willink?

  What, okay, so first thing, it's three five-minute rounds.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Three fives, yeah, cuz we just didn't wanna, like, sometimes you watch a match where a guy takes a guy's back, he holds it for 10 minutes or so, you know, like, we want the action to be pushed the entire time.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  How do you avoid 10 or five minutes or or let's say four minutes of patty cake, stand-up, fake shots, crappy wrestling, you know, a takedown for one minute, holding on the ground, now he gets stood up again for five more minutes, three more minutes, five more minutes of patty cake. How do you avoid that?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think basically the patty cake problem is the mat space. There's no push-out rule in a regular jujitsu event, so you can just go out of bounds, like, we can't do a cage because cage being vertical and guys are so good defensively on the fence, then we just have fence wrestling for, like MMA guys obviously use strikes.

• 37:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Amongst the fence wrestling.

• 37:37Jocko Willink?

  To open up the wrestling.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  To open up the wrestling, so then we basically saw the angled walls karate combat use and that, what that does, it means if you back up, it's to your disadvantage because if they shoot a takedown and you're anywhere near, you're not gonna be able to sprawl, your back's gonna hit it, they're gonna be able to take you down. So theoretically.

• 37:57Jocko Willink?

  How tall are the walls?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I should know because I've competed in.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  Are they like waist high though?

• 38:02Speaker 01

  No, no, no, they'll be up to like, they'll be above my shoulder's height.

• 38:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh dang.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. So you're got, you're not getting out of that pit too easy.

• 38:10Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  That's why actually I remember the karate combat guys telling me they had problems initially because the pit never used to open. So if a guy got knocked out bad enough, like how do you get him out of the pit? You have to drag him out of the wall, you know? So they had to create a pit that would open so they could stretch the guys out.

• 38:25Jocko Willink?

  This is good. My, I used to think it would be cool to have jujitsu matches in a big salad bowl.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good to be, yeah, you gotta have something that's negative about backing on.

• 38:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, where you can't like, you know, a salad bowl gets steep towards the top. So you could kind of back away, but eventually you would get to where you couldn't back away anymore. So you kind of created a salad bowl scenario.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Jujitsu guys love to toss some salad for sure.

• 38:49Jocko Willink?

  So, so you got that going for you.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Uh, no ref, basically very little referee interference. Although at the CCL, there's a lot of cool highlight reels that go out of bounds. It is a safety hazard crashing at the table. Like obviously Shunde Barra is good at those out of bounds rules.

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  How do you, how do you, uh, view the thing if you've got a shoulder high wall around the thing?

• 39:09Speaker 01

  Very expensive.

• 39:10Jocko Willink?

  Or something like that?

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Very, this was very expensive choice for us unfortunately is we had to basically build a elevated platform around it. So that obviously they have really good seating. They're going to seat straight in.

• 39:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  To the pit.

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  That must've been.

• 39:24Speaker 01

  It's expensive.

• 39:25Jocko Willink?

  Crazy expensive.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Very, very expensive. Yeah. The pit, the pits are big investment. I think it's going to cost us a lot of money to have that pit built, but it's very important because it's like, it's just showing there's a better sort of platform for people to compete in. They karate combat calls the pit, we call ours the alley.

• 39:46Jocko Willink?

  Interesting. This is like we're fighting in an alley. Yeah, I feel you like that. You approve of that.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  I approve. You only do one of two things in an alley.

• 39:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 39:58Jocko Willink?

  All right. So number one, number one rule, we got, uh, three five minute rounds.

• 40:05Jocko Willink?

  And to prevent patty cake, we've got, and by the way, by patty cake, if you don't know what I'm talking about, if you go to some jujitsu competitions, if there's a couple of people that are either good at wrestling and they don't, not good at jujitsu, they don't want to go to the ground. So they'll just like play patty cake for five minutes, which is really boring to watch. Um, so in order to get rid of that, you've got these, the alley.

• 40:27Jocko Willink?

  Three, three, five minute rounds, 10 point must system. So this is like MMA in the fact that at the end of each round, someone's gonna get 10 points if they dominated the round. And someone's gonna get less than 10 points, either nine or whatever. Um, and they have to, that, that's the way it has to be. Can they have a draw? Can it be nine, nine in one of those rounds?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  If, I mean, it's a 10 point must, so it has to be, someone has to get 10 unless they get a negative. We will do negatives if people are obviously stalling or just being overly evasive. But what, what we're really hoping is that guys can strategize because they know the pit. To back someone into the pit or to the angled wall, we should call the alley for legal purposes.

• 41:10Jocko Willink?

  We'll call the alley.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Um, is to their detriment. So we're hoping where that a lot of the stalling penalties won't need to come into effect because by someone backing up, there's incentive to chase them. Cause if they back up into that angled wall, they'll be at a disadvantage. Whereas if someone backs up into open space of an out of bounds, the ref will be like, stop, stop, reset.

• 41:33Jocko Willink?

  Is there only one match at a time?

• 41:35Speaker 01

  One match at a time, yeah.

• 41:36Jocko Willink?

  How big is the alley?

• 41:38Speaker 01

  30 by 40. Big, big alley.

• 41:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a big size. Oh yeah, that's a big size.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  Big alley for a big woman. We needed a right enclosure.

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  So at the end of each round, there's gonna be judging. Um, who, who, how are you picking the judges?

• 41:55Speaker 01

  How are we picking them? Um, whoever's gonna be most biased towards my team for the million and the 10% I'm gonna take off those guys. Now we've got Jason Herzog involved as the head, head ref. Um, and then the judging team, we've secured like three of the five now. Cause obviously it's gonna be a long day. That first day is gonna be long. ADCC do first day, three mounts. They can chew through a lot of matches at once. Us, one, one mat space.

• 42:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Two divisions. It's a long day.

• 42:24Jocko Willink?

  That's a long.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Hopefully there's some quick finishes, but again, like you said, like with the amount of money on the line, I think it's gonna be some serious injuries.

• 42:32Jocko Willink?

  When? The Gracies used to do, I think it was actually Hickson that used to run this tournament. It was no time limit and you could win by 15 points or submission. And I mean, this was back in the day, but most of those matches were short, like shorter than, you know, like some half hour drawn out thing. So you never know, this might go quicker than people expect because they want to get it done. Some of the judging, I know you got some rules here. Here's the number one thing is initiating action, which people are getting judged. So the person that's being aggressive and getting after it is going to have the nod in the judges' minds.

• 43:15Jocko Willink?

  The second thing is, uh, close submissions. So getting close to a submission, you get something. I've heard this described before as like, if I have to defend it, then it's close.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:27Jocko Willink?

  Is that kind of the?

• 43:28Speaker 01

  I mean, basically that's the way we see it as, yeah, if there's a real threat. See, obviously you want judges that train to know what's a real threat, what's not a real threat. I think, um, obviously the judges will have three different angles to see it. Hopefully two of the judges can get a clear line of sight.

• 43:44Jocko Willink?

  Oh, because they're on different sides of the?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:46Jocko Willink?

  Alley?

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Of the alley, yeah. So hopefully two of the three will be able to see whether that's an authentic submission attempt or whether it's something to look, you know what I mean? Some, some guys will just, we don't want guys just diving on shitty foot locks and stuff. We want those to be real threats, you know what I mean? So if you shoot a, a single and get put in a guillotine and the guy doesn't react at all, it's kind of like, it's not a really serious threat, but if he panics out of the guillotine, obviously that's going to change.

• 44:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If he has to flop on his back to avoid getting guillotined, then that's.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. We want to see like, uh, we want, we basically kind of know who wins at exchange. Even, even when you have scrambles in the gym, you kind of like, you might've initiated, but you go, oh, that guy definitely followed up with a better sort of attack out of that.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  You gotta have some good judges that know what's up.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  For sure, yeah. We want guys that train guys for the sport.

• 44:40Jocko Willink?

  Not only number two was close submissions, it's also dynamic action. So if you get a sweep, if you get a takedown, if you get a pass, all those things are sort of, there's no like necessarily points, but did the, in the judge's mind, those are.

• 44:53Jocko Willink?

  Adding to the that person's score towards 10, I guess.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  For sure, yeah. Um, in a sense of like, uh, we do, we do want the positional control as well again. But guys will game any rule set, you know, they were like, obviously EBI overtime. People just decided to stall into overtime, save their energy to overtime. So really, we want to keep the rules not super explicit so that they can, you know what I mean? They can take advantage of the rule set, you know, you always have. We, we have these rules meetings, even at Fight Pass, we had the last one, there was, man, the rules meeting went for two hours. Cause guys were trying to ask the same question about how could they stall and get away with it? And they'd ask in a different way every time, you know, we want these to be authentic. We want these guys to be trying to kill each other the entire time.

• 45:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, we'll get to the million dollars because that's going to make some, some people try and kill each other. And then the number three is positional and dominant control. So if you get across, what if I get cross sided and I just hold the person there?

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Just hold, I mean, in my opinion, if you took the guy down or swept him, pass to side control. And the guy puts up no offense, I'd give that a 10 eight, give that a 10 eight for sure.

• 46:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you know, there's, there is something to be said about jujitsu and the fact that like, when you, if you get your guard pass and someone's across side on you and you're laying there and you can't get out. That's really, if you're in a fight, bro, that's a real problem.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  You're losing.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're losing bad. In jujitsu, it's no big deal, but in a real fight, you're losing bad. And you're not putting forth any, you know, advance. So I think that makes sense. So that'd be a full on 10 eight, huh?

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think if the guy puts up no offense at all, to me, it's a 10 eight, like in MMA, that'd be a 10 eight. But also like, say you take me down, you get to my back, but you don't get the second hook. Say you have one hook and, but I still was in this bad position the entire time. It's like, I don't, we don't want to be held. Oh, you didn't get the second hook. It's not a 10 eight. We still, that's basically as dominant as it gets positionally, you just didn't secure the second hook.

• 47:09Jocko Willink?

  What about, uh, if I'm going to pass your guard and you turtle up?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Turtle up. I mean, I think you've made me do something. So it's an offensive movement. But I think obviously, we don't want them to just assume. If that's all that happens, obviously, you're gonna win the round.

• 47:24Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. Good.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  But it wouldn't be a 10 A.

• 47:26Jocko Willink?

  Cause I always think that's, that's one of those things like getting the hooks in jujitsu. Like, oh, I got your back and you just managed to keep my foot from getting in there and I don't get any points or whatever. Same thing when I pass your guard and what you do is turtle up and I didn't get any points for that either, even though now I can just punch you in the back of the head. Until you're knocked out, but there's no punching. So I think that makes sense.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, and that's interesting about the ADCC scoring too, is that if you sort of turtle, turtle is quite a safe position. If you take someone down, they scramble to a turtle, hold for three seconds, roll back to guard. Now it's no longer a takedown. But I still think, in my opinion, you've still

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  done something pretty substantial there.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  I'm surprised that rule hasn't been changed. The turtle should not be considered like a safe thing. Should be, should be considered a horrible thing. I mean, it's basically like you pass the guard. If I get you to turtle and you're just showing me your back and all turtled up, that's ridiculous. I'll either want a takedown or guard pass. Echo Charles? Yay? Nay? I could see that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's way different than the guard. It's, it's actually the, in wrestling, you get, that's two points. That's, well, now it's three points, but that's takedown for sure. Someone turtles. Game over. Yeah. You're out. Yeah. All right. Slamming's allowed. Um.

• 48:43Jocko Willink?

  The judges, so I'm right in the factor, I think I'm right, I interpreted this right, that you're gonna post the scores after each round.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, because we want, we want the open score. We don't want the decision at the end to come as a surprise. Cause jujitsu guys, they largely don't want to compete in a rule set they're unfamiliar with. But a lot of what we're doing here is we've added rounds and at least with the open score and they'll know where they're at the end of each round. But say, for example, the first round's a 10 eight. To me, you win the next two. If it's a qualifying round and not the final and it's a draw, we're gonna do it like in wrestling, last point wins. So we don't want the guy that wins the 10 eight to think he can just coast to victory. Whoever wins the last round wins. So we want action the entire time.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  And the finals has an overtime round?

• 49:31Speaker 01

  The final will be five fives and by some miracle it's a draw, we'll go another round. But I think it'll be tough, very tough, very rare MMA sort of draws over five rounds.

• 49:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, it's not gonna happen most likely.

• 49:49Jocko Willink?

  You're doing this, one of the motivations for you doing this that I've seen you talk about is the Fight Foundation, the Fair Fight Foundation, what's that all about? Fair Fight, or sorry, Fight Foundation dot, is it dot org or dot com?

• 50:01Speaker 01

  That's a good question, I should know that for sure.

• 50:03Jocko Willink?

  We'll put it in the show notes just, we don't have show notes. Echo Charles.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, that was the old joke is like Jiu Jitsu doesn't make a profit, so why not make it a nonprofit? But we're basically donating the profits on top of the event from that initial $3 million investment to go back towards charities. So luckily we're doing Tap Cancer Out.

• 50:22Jocko Willink?

  Awesome.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  And Richard Byrne is a black belt from New York who used to run Kasai grappling.

• 50:27Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 50:27Speaker 01

  And we've got him on board, he's basically what, for every dollar we donate to Tap Cancer Out, he's gonna dollar for dollar match, so.

• 50:34Jocko Willink?

  Does he have a cap on that?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  No cap on that.

• 50:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh damn.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  So Rich is a bowler, so hopefully we can make him write a good check.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  Let's put the pressure on him.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  And then we're letting some of the athletes pick, because we want, we wanted some of the athletes to have a say in where those charity dollars go. So for me personally, we try to do some film projects with the Fair Fight Foundation. We've got one coming out about Bali, sort of like, the theme of the series, I mean, it's like, well, we're trying to do what Borden did for food, but we're trying to do it, make Jiu Jitsu a bit cooler than, than sort of it is, you know, it's a fine, it's more interesting people in the the sport that are cool, watching the sport, not as cool. But we'll do charity aspects each episode, so there's, we worked with a charity in Indonesia in Bali, Dempesar, one of the slums called, AKA Australian guy teaches Jiu Jitsu, helps out the local community, so for me, that'd be my personal

• 51:23Speaker 01

  choice of charities, we're gonna donate, I'm gonna donate a portion of ticket sales to him.

• 51:28Jocko Willink?

  You were, you were just on Instagram doing some kind of Turkish wrestling, right? Is that right?

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Oh yeah.

• 51:34Jocko Willink?

  With Luke Rockhold?

• 51:35Speaker 01

  Turkish oil wrestling, yes.

• 51:37Jocko Willink?

  That, and so this is, I heard you talking about this today when we were training, that this is kind of the idea to go try different grappling. Like historical grappling or

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll try.

• 51:48Jocko Willink?

  Cultural grappling around the world.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  We'll try anything. The Turkish one is the longest concurrently ran sporting event in the world. So I think they've been doing it for over 500 years and that's get some leather pants, lather themselves up with oil. Some of those matches got 30, 40 minutes. Some of those dudes are huge. They're over 300 pounds.

• 52:04Jocko Willink?

  Did you train against any of them?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  We trained against one local guy. He sort of took us to the main show. We had a connection with basically considered the ghost of Turkish oil wrestling and he sort of hooked it all up for us when we're over there. But we trained in the park with one of the local guys, put the leather pants on and stuff. It was fun. Luke came ready. He had leather pants ready to go. But obviously we used their traditional leather pants in the end. But that's interesting experience.

• 52:29Jocko Willink?

  What are the, can you submit people?

• 52:32Speaker 01

  You can't submit people in there, but we were cheating when we're facing each other. But I mean, you can grab the, the inseam of the, uh, the pants, but you can grab inside the pants and grab the fabric because obviously it's hard to make grips. So we're reaching deep in there. I believe that's the origins of the oil check. It dates back to ancient Turkey.

• 52:54Jocko Willink?

  And what was the, in, in Bali, they're just doing jiu jitsu?

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, just a jiu jitsu gym. He sort of, uh, trains the local kids and then he tries to, he tries to help them. Like he, we'll be releasing this pretty soon, but he sort of helps the local community because Bali's full of Aussies going there to party and have fun. It's like our Mexico. But, uh, not many people see the, sort of the poor, the bad side. So like, he's one of the few Aussies that's doing good, but they're not doing some damage.

• 53:24Jocko Willink?

  You know, I was thinking about this, this competition again, the CJI and one, one of the things I just was, as we were talking, thinking about, I heard this story when they invented the atom bomb, that

• 53:37Jocko Willink?

  Don't quote me on this, but it's like when you've split that first hydrogen molecule, they, there was a chance, like some of the scientists thought, well, when we split that one and it releases this energy, that's going to hit other hydrogen and those are going to split and that's going to hit other ones and it's basically going to destroy the earth. Like, there's a certain part of this that was just unknown when they did it for the first time, that we might just literally blow up the entire earth and kill everybody. And they had some whatever math figures that they were like, well, it probably won't happen. But when you take the best grapplers in the world, like you're doing, and then you put

• 54:16Jocko Willink?

  a million dollars into the mix, this could create total a, a, a reaction that we haven't seen before, because, again, you and I were talking about this at, uh, at the open mat, like, people will destroy, get their MCL, ACL and PCL destroyed to win a nine dollar gold medal.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Hilarious.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  They'll do it, you know, they'll do that for, uh, well, for, for $10,000 and people don't tap. Like, I'm, you know, when people are doing their first competition, they'll be like, you know, what do you, what do you, you know, got any advice? I'm like, yeah, the guy's not going to tap. I tell people at all time, like, oh, you know, you get the footlock, like, people, at a high level, people aren't tap. People, they will tap, but it's rare that someone just taps your straight ankle, like, you just break that thing. I mean, Vinnie Magalace, what kind of injuries has he had from just let that thing? What about the kid that, um, Mikey?

• 55:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that guy will never be the same, for sure.

• 55:19Jocko Willink?

  Dude, what?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Wait, Mikey, Mikey who? He just kept.

• 55:22Jocko Willink?

  Mikey Musumeci.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:24Jocko Willink?

  He was in Japan in the one championships and he had this guy's leg.

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  And he did every different variant of a heel hook and took it to the extreme. And then switched it to the other side and took it to the extreme and then took it to the other side and took it to the extreme. And the dude did not tap. I mean, his, his, every ligament in his legs must be completely destroyed.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  That guy's like that robot thing now, hey?

• 55:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh yeah. The robot jujitsu thing?

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, basically him.

• 55:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 01

  That guy's legs.

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  So when you, I mean, a million dollars.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  A mi- yeah, ten thousand.

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  There's no one that's tapping for a million dollars.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Second place is ten thousand and one dollars, you know, like.

• 56:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I don't, I don't see any of those guys tapping. Like this is the thing that you might've released. You might think you're gonna get this cool tournament where there's like, everyone's going for submission. And then you find out, no one's gonna submit. Like the only move that you can get to someone is to put them to sleep. Right? Cause.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  It'd be entertaining for us.

• 56:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What kind of waivers do they have to sign?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Hopefully good ones.

• 56:27Jocko Willink?

  You better get your lawyer freaking hot on that.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Quickly.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  I think it's hilarious though, cause there's no second place and that's what I've made a career of. There's no second place prize, you know? First to your last for this one.

• 56:38Jocko Willink?

  This is like a self hatred thing that you're doing.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, or ten thousand dollars. Imagine losing nine hundred ninety thousand dollars in the final.

• 56:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. A million dollars changes people's lives and possibly their children's lives. Like that's a ridiculous amount of money. So I don't, yeah. I look at the, the brackets of the people that, that are going in this thing. I mean, Nicky Rod's not tapping to any.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so.

• 57:02Jocko Willink?

  Would he tap to, for his ACL to be saved?

• 57:05Speaker 01

  Not for a million.

• 57:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  He just had his first kid too, so it's probably.

• 57:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. There's zero percent chance he's not tapping. Uh, Joao Rocha, he's not tapping anything. Victor Hugo? No. Uh, go down the list of these guys. There's not, there's not gonna be tapping.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Hopefully though, otherwise it's a fucking long day that first day.

• 57:24Jocko Willink?

  What, what if I win, but I can't walk? Do you have replacements? Do you have guys in the wings for replacements? Or do I get a buy?

• 57:32Speaker 01

  What if you win your match, but then you're too injured?

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  I think you're out of there.

• 57:36Jocko Willink?

  But then who, does the other person get to go again?

• 57:38Speaker 01

  I think we probably have to bring back the guy that you beat.

• 57:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, because essentially that's not really winning, right?

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you have to go to hospital and the other guy didn't, he won.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  See, you need to make that part of the official rules for sure.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:52Jocko Willink?

  Right? If you can't, because that'll, that'll actually encourage people to tap. Because if they're just gonna just have their ACL destroyed or their shoulder destroyed and they know they can still go on to compete and possibly win. Yeah.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  There's gonna be some injuries for sure. Hopefully nothing too gruesome.

• 58:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 58:13Speaker 01

  God.

• 58:14Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Gabby will get it for sure.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  She ain't walking out of there, if you know what I mean.

• 58:22Jocko Willink?

  What's your, uh, what's your long-term plan with this?

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I mean, we, we would love to be able to do it every year. We just wanted this first event to like just catapult the sport. Because like another, another thing that I think they've put money in the wrong spot is uh, Mo says he wants to go grappling. Obviously by ticket sales metric, he's growing grappling, but then he's put it behind a paywall. We're putting ours free on YouTube, it'll be on Facebook, it'll be on Twitter or X, it'll be on everything free. Because we want to maximize the reach of the event and have it free first to grow the sport. And then obviously ultimately one day behind a paywall. But we also want to see all the metrics to see how many people actually tune in and watch. Because they keep all of that secret. Obviously Flow, Flypass, it doesn't make sense for them to tell the event how many viewers they get

• 59:10Speaker 01

  because then they'll leverage that in the negotiation process. So we want it free so we see how many people really watch grappling.

• 59:17Jocko Willink?

  So it's going to be on YouTube streamed?

• 59:19Speaker 01

  Stream free, yeah.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  How many like camera angles are you gonna have? You have a full production thing coming?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  Production, yeah.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  Did you hire somebody to do that, some company coming in to do that?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  My business partner took care of the logistics, things of that, yeah. But we've got a really good crew on board for sure.

• 59:37Jocko Willink?

  You have sponsors coming in.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Sponsors coming in, yes.

• 59:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  We have.

• 59:41Jocko Willink?

  Jocko Fuel's coming in.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Jocko Fuel's coming in.

• 59:42Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah. Hell, yeah. Who else is coming in?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a great question that I should probably know. Yeah.

• 59:48Jocko Willink?

  It's all good. Give them all a shout out. To everyone that's sponsoring, we don't know the name of right now, except for Jocko Fuel. We know the name for that.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  That's even better. Yeah. You're the only one.

• 59:56Jocko Willink?

  The only sponsor. The only ones to step up. And, and then, so, so your long-term plan is hopefully you do this again next year?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, hopefully again next year. I just really hope everything comes together. Obviously, I hope we get a sellout so we can donate as much money to charity as possible. I hope the athletes understand the significance of the event and fight to the death and make it exciting. You know what I mean? I hope all of those things come true because then we can keep having million dollar paydays. But like ultimately, if someone goes out there and gets four boring decisions, you know, if they don't put it on the line when the audience is there to watch, it's going to be hard to justify doing this every year. So I really think it lies with each competitor. But my thesis is that if, for a million, they're going to go for it.

• 1:00:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  What bigger incentive is there? The other guys in the other event that haven't come across think it's easy to make a million dollars just if you win ADCC. That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  Meaning they think they can get sponsorships or sell videos or whatever?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, they think like that they'll win ADCC. Oftentimes, guys that win ADCC still, they're finding, they don't financially improve much at all. They're still struggling, but they sort of get sold a lie. Like you can have a moment at ADCC that can make you famous because of the reach it has, but.

• 1:01:17Jocko Willink?

  It's hard to convert that into cash.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, unless really the fans take an interest in you and want to watch your instructional. But if you go out there and have four boring matches and win ADCC, you're not going to sell any instructional. Like no one's going to buy the instruction on being a boring cunt, you know?

• 1:01:31Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  You gotta go do something, you know, so.

• 1:01:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, well, if you're looking for people to try and kill each other and hurt each other and maim each other, I know you're not looking for that specifically, but that certainly makes for some excitement, doesn't it?

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, very much so. And you know what? Obviously, I'm just kind of thinking, whatever. But you know how they have like performance bonuses? Like, I always thought, because every once in a while, I'll kind of think that, hey, if the more is on the line, some people, there's two kinds of people. Some people, they want to freaking attack what the prize is. The other kind of person will be like, well, I don't want to do anything dangerous because I don't want that million dollars to slip away, you know, so they might play more reserve because they don't want to lose.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  50K performance bonus.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, so I feel like, yeah, when you throw in a bunch of performance, you know, knock out of the UFC style, right? Knock out of the night, fight of the night, all these blank XYZ of the night, then you might see a flurry of all this stuff and then everything put together might incentivize collectively.

• 1:02:28Jocko Willink?

  So what, so what, so that's a legitimate worry that I'm fighting Craig Jones in the finals? And I'm like, hopefully I can just win two 10, eight, 10, nine rounds by, you know, getting a takedown and like holding you. Uh, that's a legitimate worry.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's only five minutes, right? I can, I can get out to the next, and I'm not saying that everyone's gonna do this. I'm saying there's two types of competitors in that way, you know?

• 1:02:53Jocko Willink?

  It's so hard to predict human, what humans are gonna do. And like what you were saying, Craig, about the UFC fight pass thing where everyone's just asking questions to figure out how they can use the rules to their advantage. And that's why I think that judging is going to be really important. But I'll tell you, if someone gets, like, uh, when I train with my consistent training partners, a lot of times, we just have a rule. It's basically, it's almost like a pin rule. Like, because if, if I get a cross side on you or you get a cross side on me, like, it's gonna be, like, I can hold you there for a long time. You can hold me there for a long time. It's like, okay, what do we get out of that round? I held you a cross side for four minutes, you know? That's just not that beneficial.

• 1:03:38Jocko Willink?

  So if I'm in CJI and I get a cross side and I want to hold on to that million dollars and I know I kind of get this round. So yeah, you're gonna have to watch out for that, but that's why the judges are important.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  And I just think like guys on top shouldn't be so concerned with holding a pin. Like if you're on top of someone, you should be positioning yourself in such a way that they keep burning energy. And sometimes if you get a guy too pinned in side control and the bottom guy just chills because he can't move, he's not wasting energy. And that's why I think sometimes taking the back is not always the best option. Because you throw in your two hooks, the guy hand fights and he can rest. So it's like, I think continually passing or being close to a pass where the guy's defending, having to defend, you're forcing him to keep defending a pass and getting exhausted is the way to cook someone over those rounds.

• 1:04:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna go out on a limb because I'm trying to think of how to avoid, how would you avoid getting me past your guard and I hold you? I passed your guard in one minute and now I get a cross side and there's four minutes left and I'm just gonna win this, this round 10-9 and that's good enough for me. Maybe like a pin could be a thing where if I hold you there for, was it judo 30 seconds or something like that? I don't know. Sorry, I'm going off in random directions. That is a thing though. Is getting past the guard and holding someone is a thing.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I mean, you should always be fighting for top position. I think if the bottom guy's trying to get up or sweep, more things are gonna go down. There's gonna be more scrambles, more submission attempts. Everything gets better when there's an incentive to be on top. But I think it's sort of like an, just the ability to fatigue your opponent is the gift you get from being on top.

• 1:05:21Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be wild, man.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. It will be fighting till the death. I mean, I could see that sorting itself out to be that way, for sure.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  What are the dates of the competition? It's August 17th?

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's August 16th, 17th. So you still, I mean, ADCC 17, 18. We start late on Saturday and we'll be there on Friday. So you could buy tickets to both events theoretically, watch largely most of each of the events. You could easily watch the finals of us and the finals of ADCC. So we haven't completely.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Killed.

• 1:05:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's nice because people can go one weekend to Vegas and see all the best grapplers in the world.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  I just hope, um, I know we will do pass outs if you come to us and you want to go to, you want to go back and forth throughout the day. I just hope ADCC do that too. So that if you've bought tickets to both, say you want to watch this bracket and this match you can, because arenas will be pretty close to each other.

• 1:06:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What are they like a five minute walk, 10 minute walk?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  I think probably 10 minute drive.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, 10 minute drive. That's a little further than I thought. Okay, cool. Um, I looked for your, your, uh, Craig Jones Invitational website and I didn't find it. I was going to actually text Echo in the middle of the night last night and say like, dude, I Googled it. What is it?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  So fuck, what is it? Fight Foundation, something like that?

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Fightfoundation.com or org. I'm pretty sure. But is that where you'd go for CJI?

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Fightfoundation.com. Yeah, that's where all the information is. Obviously me flexing in here.

• 1:06:52Jocko Willink?

  Fightfoundation.com. That's where you can find information for this.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Fightfoundation.com. Yeah. Or Instagram. This has been largely an Instagram marketing campaign of harassment against other people, really.

• 1:07:03Jocko Willink?

  You, you do the, um, you could go teach a class at Harvard when you're done with this about viral. No, what do they call it? Guerrilla marketing. That's what Echo Charles is kind of.

• 1:07:14Jocko Willink?

  That's what you're doing. You're doing literal, you could go teach your class at Harvard. I mean, if this thing goes well, if it doesn't go well, you could also teach a class on what not to do. But that guerrilla marketing thing is a real thing, you know, because you pulled over, just again, for people that don't know this guerrilla marketing thing. You pulled over some of the champions and some of the best people from the other competition over to your competition. The Rutolo brothers are coming over. Um, you got just a bunch of, a bunch of studs. The Tackett brothers are going over. Who else is on here?

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  We got everyone but New Wave, basically. New Wave decided to have their own tour and so unfortunately that'll be a New Wave open at ADCC.

• 1:07:52Jocko Willink?

  Jason Knoll. How'd you get, how'd you end up with Jason Knoll?

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  No, we obviously wanted to learn the wrestling crowd as well, but Knoll, he's been trained to do this for a long time.

• 1:07:59Jocko Willink?

  No, he's a freaking savage.

• 1:08:01Speaker 01

  He's tough. He's tough. So three, five minute rounds against a wrestler. And we spoke to Bo Nickel. Bo Nickel was talking about it. He wanted to do the under 80. Ultimately pulled, but like they could win.

• 1:08:11Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  They could like.

• 1:08:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If you have Jason Knoll take you down and pass your guard like that's you're not getting up. This dude's been holding people down since he was four years old.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I've trained with him. I know he's good. He is so slow. People are gonna get a surprise. Like if you're a jujitsu guy that's heavily focused on wrestling and you draw Jason Knoll, good luck.

• 1:08:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Good luck.

• 1:08:30Jocko Willink?

  You can take your little whatever, how many years? I've been trying, I've been really concentrating on wrestling for the last five years. The dude's like, I'm, I'm four years old and I was doing double legs in the backyard.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Just beat Burrows.

• 1:08:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You got a bunch of studs. Uh, what else, man? Does that get us up to speed?

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  Pretty much on the tournament. Yeah.

• 1:08:49Jocko Willink?

  What about life? You good?

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Pretty good. Yeah.

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  Hey, well, I guess you, you've been kind of mentioning a couple of times, you're gonna go against, here against Gabby Reese.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Garcia.

• 1:08:58Jocko Willink?

  Oh, sorry. Gabby Garcia, who's 10 time world champion female. She's 240 pounds or something like that.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a big woman. Yeah.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  And you guys are gonna do what? Same rules?

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  Same rules. I think we're doing five by five, three by five. I don't know. I don't know, but we'll finish her as quick as the scheduling requires. You know what I mean? If we're running over, we'll, uh, take her out quick, no foreplay.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  How did that come up? Like, how, what did you decide to do that?

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  With the origins of that, she competed at Flo Grappling and gave some impassioned speech about how anyone that calls her out, she'll take on it. I said, that sounds like something I'd do.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  Craig Jones.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Thinking outside the box over here.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. All right. And that was it? You're like, okay, I'm gonna do that?

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Basically, yeah. Have a few beers on the day, get sure the job done.

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:09:45Speaker 01

  See all the sponsorship. Go a long way for that one.

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  And then when you, um, announced it or approached her with it, what was she like? Are you serious? Or was she like, hell yeah? Or what? What was her response?

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  It's, it's swayed back and forth, I would say, over the years. You know what I mean? But ultimately we got pen to paper. She took a stand against A- A D C, well, against the organizers less than the event and decided to jump on board for this one.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  But yeah, she's on board fully.

• 1:10:12Jocko Willink?

  And what? Are you guys gonna go? When are you gonna do your match with her? Like before the finals?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, that'll be before the final. Probably, I think it'll be Fiona McKenzie, then me and Gabby, and then the finals. So it'll be exciting. It'll be exciting.

• 1:10:28Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna be a good day, dude.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Couple of days. I've done no training for it.

• 1:10:32Jocko Willink?

  Already making your excuses, getting them logged in.

• 1:10:35Speaker 01

  That's a good one to have a rematch for, you know?

• 1:10:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right. Setting up the whole, the whole freaking storyline right now. Check. Anything else, man? Echo, you got any more questions?

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's go back to the TRT steroids.

• 1:10:48Speaker 02

  I don't know, you kind of mentioned kind of your stack loosely, you know? Is that pretty typical for, you know? I know like there's a group of competitors that are like, hell yeah, we're going all out and.

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, most of us will take anything. I mean, they're taking everything and anything to win the $10,000 in ADCC medals. So like, who knows what it'll take them to the million.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  I wanted to test them, not to block them or anything, but just to see.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Like bragging rights?

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to see.

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  See what their levels are at, you know? But um, for me, I keep it pretty low, pretty stable these days. I don't go too crazy. People have tried, I mean, even your training partners won't really tell you what they're taking. So it's kind of like a mystery. But no one wants to admit to any part of it. But I at least wanted to admit to what I'm taking. So like, if any of the youth see it, they at least know that you can accomplish things on a, not a crazy, dangerous stack. You know, they don't start at the, up here.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  Is that why you take it mainly for like your competitive reasons or like, you know, for competition and stuff? Or is it just sort of like generally speaking, you know?

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I mean, these days, gen- general health, you know? Like, uh, when I first did a cycle, I helped you gain weight because I had qualified for ADCC in the weight division above me. Because my coach at the time did the one below. So I was like, oh, fuck it. We'll get, we'll put on some muscle, be in the right division. Because when I faced Homolo in 2015, I was only 80 kilos. He was 88. And then when I qualified again for 80, I was like, fuck, I better at least be in the right division. So instead of like taking my diet and recovery and lifting seriously, I thought I'd just do a crazy stack, gain some weight that way.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  And you said that you do feel it, like the difference?

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  Like, I mean, honestly, you're gonna feel the difference, obviously, but like, is it that big a deal? Like, you did gain weight, obviously.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  That first cycle, you definitely feel.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  Hit it out the gates harder, you feel it.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  After then, not so much. Just, I just know I'd feel worse without it, you know?

• 1:12:47Jocko Willink?

  Do you feel, because everybody says, once you go on it, and then you come off it, you go worse, right? Because now your body stops making testosterone. Did you feel that kind of effect?

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, the first cycle I did, I did a, I did some bodybuilding cycle, because again, you don't know what people are taking. You're just asking your buddies, you know, at the time you're like, well, I mean, I used to get into Tijuana, hit a pharmacy and jab it in the quad in the bathroom, but um, things have come a long way since then. But when I first came, because the old school logic was cycle on and come off. But I think it's not really that healthy for your body to be doing this. I think it'd be better to be stable. So I think personally, healthier to not go on and off, on and off. Maybe up it a little bit if you have an important tournament.

• 1:13:30Speaker 02

  Hmm. Yeah, maybe get somebody who's like a real professional about your whole situation as well, rather than the experimental scenario. What about mentally? Like, I don't know, emotionally, what, you know, your day to day, like going on and off and all that, like?

• 1:13:47Speaker 01

  The first time I came off, you definitely feel the estrogen effects. You know, you feel a bit emotional.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Like what?

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  A lot of crying, you know?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  Now, you feel a bit down. Obviously, you feel down when you come off. I think that's why people used to say the PCT, post-cycle therapy, because like, your test crashes, but your estrogen takes a bit of time to follow it up. But I mean, it's still, it's different for everyone, you know? Again, I know people that take their first injection, think they feel it. You're like, some of that's got to be placebo too. But for me, mine's been stable dosage for years now. So it's like, it is just the baseline for me. The only side effect would be probably shooting blanks, but that could be good too, you know? That is male birth control. So at least that's what I tell them, yeah.

• 1:14:30Jocko Willink?

  And, and did you lift at all when you were trying to get bigger?

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  I lifted, yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  I lift, but it's just, uh, I did lift when I had a more stable lifestyle. Now I barely even have a house. I just travel full time. That makes it hard, you know, goes a long way if there's a squat rack in a hotel, but there rarely is. And if that is out of the hotel, that's too big obstacle for me to go find. So I'll just do whatever's in the hotel. So you're not really lifting very much? No. If I have the energy, I'll do it though, you know, I have to feel motivated. It's hard to get the motivation up. Plus I want Gabby to look a lot bigger than me. I don't want to come in looking more stacked than her. That kind of kills the pillar of the match. I've been calling her up and like, take more Anavah, I can take more steroids, you know?

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Right on. Wait, Echo, you good?

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Well, you know, in the spirit of not wasting too much of Craig Jones' time, it is great to, uh, to see you again. I saw you briefly back in, back in the day.

• 1:15:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it was weird. I, I heard that you trained at Victory back in the day, but I didn't know if you were there for like six months or like six hours.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think just a week, a week maybe.

• 1:15:43Jocko Willink?

  So then today, when you told me you were there for a week, I was like, cool. Cause I kind of felt bad. Like I didn't really remember you being there, probably because I was out of town or something.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  That was before the cycle. So you probably didn't see me.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you looked different.

• 1:15:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Zach, get us up to speed. We good?

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  I reckon, yeah.

• 1:15:58Jocko Willink?

  Right on. Um, people can find you. You got B Team Jiu Jitsu, B Team JJ.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  B Team JJ.

• 1:16:04Jocko Willink?

  Dot com.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  Dot com.

• 1:16:05Jocko Willink?

  Fightfoundation.com, which is where all the information about this massive, life-changing, game-changing event's going to be. You're on Instagram, Craig Jones BJJ. You also have at CJI official. This is where, and your, um, your Instagram is quite entertaining. It's.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  That's the goal. Yeah, that's where the money make.

• 1:16:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. So get in there to that. You also have a YouTube channel, B Team Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:16:34Speaker 01

  B Team Jiu Jitsu, yeah.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  And you post a bunch of wild stuff in there. I just watched the thing about the Rutolo brothers and that was awesome to watch. Those guys are, I've known those guys since they were little kids and it's so cool to see them growing up and getting after and doing what they're doing. And that's some places where you can find it. Where, is it going to be YouTube streamed on that channel, you think?

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Just cause it's easy. Cause it's already established audience.

• 1:16:55Jocko Willink?

  And you're there. You're in there.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  And we still have subscribers, you know?

• 1:17:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there you go. You can double, double dip on those guys.

• 1:17:05Jocko Willink?

  Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you swinging by. Thanks for coming by to train this morning and thanks for taking care of the Jiu Jitsu competitors and getting more Jiu Jitsu out to the world, man. Appreciate it.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys.

• 1:17:18Jocko Willink?

  Right on, brother.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Craig Jones has left the building.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  Training.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Training.

• 1:17:27Jocko Willink?

  Did you roll with Craig Jones today?

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  I did not roll with Craig Jones today.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  Some good rolls this morning. Yeah, some good open mat activities.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  I feel like this, and wait, maybe you mentioned, who mentioned it? You, maybe Kerry? I forget that Craig Jones, he rolled up and you know, okay, so there's different vibes, there's different goals, there's different,

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  there's different approaches you can take for any, any given day of training.

• 1:17:54Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  And today was the day that Craig Jones and a couple of other people were like, hey, look, this is not a crazy training day. I know it's Sunday open mat, but bro, I'm gonna get around, I get two rounds, maybe three.

• 1:18:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  And then we're gonna go ahead and keep it pushing. Some people are like that.

• 1:18:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  That's me sometimes.

• 1:18:12Jocko Willink?

  You know, we were driving home, myself and my daughters and Rana.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Today?

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, today, after we all got done training. And, you know, cause it's common, common issue, right? Before training, do you always feel like going to train?

• 1:18:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:18:30Jocko Willink?

  You don't always feel like going to train. So one of my daughters did not feel like going to train this morning, but you know, hey, that's what we're doing. Fam Jitsu.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Fam Jitsu, all day, hell yeah.

• 1:18:41Jocko Willink?

  And so as we're driving home, my one daughter said to my other daughter, don't you feel good now that you trained? And you know what my other daughter said? Yeah. Hundred percent.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:51Jocko Willink?

  So always gonna feel better when you train.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  I had that exact same, or not that exact same, but very similar conversation with Wes, our guy Wes. Where, you know, he's talking about, you know, like, you know, the different levels, like some people, they wanna be the competitor. Sometimes you wanna just be a hobbyist. Sometimes you just want Jiu Jitsu to be a general, just part of your life. You're not in there trying to compete with every single person, every single minute of every single round. And sometimes it changes. Sometimes you wanna be a competitor and then after a while, you're like, wait a second, maybe I have a family now, whatever. And then now you're a hobbyist, you know, kinda thing. There's a dynamic to people's Jiu Jitsu pursuits. And I'm like, and that's what we talked about, right? During that time where it's like, hey, sometimes, bro, you're not always fired up to just go train jujitsu. Sometimes you're like, you know what? I've, I should go because when I'm done, I'll be very happy that I went.

• 1:19:37Speaker 02

  And that's literally the case every single time, a hundred percent of the time, even the days that I got injured. I'm happy I went.

• 1:19:42Jocko Willink?

  What about with the variations between different people? Because the reason I bring this up is Kerry was filming today. And you know, he's like, I, he was like, oh, I got some footage. And I was like, oh, cool. He goes, dude, whenever you like, as soon as you shake hands with Sloan, like I just hit record. Cause yeah, it's on. Yeah, it's on. Not that I'm, you know, the level of Sloan, but like, we just kind of go hard.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, fully. And then, yeah, and then some people, some days they're like, all, you know, like hard training. And then sometimes hey, it's more of like a mellow training, even though it's unstated. You don't say, you're not saying, hey, I'm training mellow today. No, you just train mellow. And then you're one of those guys who's real good at matching the other guy's energy, you know? And yeah, that's a, oh, fully, that's a real thing. And you can go like today was one guy you're rolling with is just a cruise roll on purpose. And then the next roll is, is all out death match. So yeah, that's real too. That's part of the gig.

• 1:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Dude, this, this C J I is going to be very. It is literally, uh, an unknown. We're going into the world, the unknown. Cause when you put a million dollars on, on the line. A million dollars on the line. These guys are going to go, and there's the competition's sick, dude. They're freaking sick.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  So there, the, there's another element to it, which is cool, given Craig Jones's, um, one of his goals is to get more eyeballs on jujitsu. Because it's, when you think about it, it's interesting what people will watch. If there's a million dollars on the line.

• 1:21:20Jocko Willink?

  They don't even have to be into it. Good point, because Mr. Beast, you know, the YouTube guy?

• 1:21:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:24Jocko Willink?

  Dude, he, people will watch, because there's a million dollars on the line. How long can you stay on this circle or put your finger on this telephone pole or whatever he's doing? A million people will watch that. Maybe even more than one million people will watch.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, more than that. And yeah, so why is it? Cause they like to see how long someone can stand in a circle? No, like no one cares about how long a random person can stand in a circle. How long can you, like, no one cares. Put a million dollars on there. Now we all of a sudden care and we actually kind of care a lot. I'll watch it.

• 1:21:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And now you take that and you say, hey, we're going to give one million dollars to the person here that can survive an onslaught of other people trying to break their limbs or choke them unconscious. I think I think chokes are going to have to be a thing because I don't think people are tapping dude. I really don't think people are tapping.

• 1:22:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:16Jocko Willink?

  Because because dude, like I said, people don't tap in the training room.

• 1:22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? I'm not saying everybody, but there's times where people get hurt in the training room because they did not tap.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That that happens all the time.

• 1:22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:30Jocko Willink?

  So now you put them in competition.

• 1:22:33Jocko Willink?

  Now they're definitely not tapping, but now you put a million dollars on the line. Maybe I'm just a little bit obsessed with that idea right now, but I think it's going to change some. I think it's going to change. I think there's some some unknown. It's an unknown element that we're getting into.

• 1:22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can kind of imagine a lot of stuff actually, and when you really think about it where, I mean, you know, you guys were met, you mentioned, um, like, what if you can't continue or whatever? I think where it stands the reason that if I like pop my elbow because they didn't tap to an arm bar or whatever, but I won the match, bro, I'm showing up for that next match hundred percent. Bro, I'll try not to use this arm and bro, if I lose, I lose better than not. Bro, the million dollars still there.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  Everyone's showing up.

• 1:23:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:23:13Jocko Willink?

  No one going to the hospital.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, guys limping out on the mat.

• 1:23:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, guys will be limping out on the mat.

• 1:23:18Jocko Willink?

  Guys are going to be crawling. There might, there might, I I predict there's a decent chance that someone is on their, you know, on their haunches dragging themselves onto the mat. I predict that because there's a million dollars and you know what? You can train with an injury and still get a sub. You know what I mean? You can happen. And why would you not take that chance?

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:23:43Jocko Willink?

  So this is the element of the, there isn't a huge element of the unknown here of what's gonna go down. I think chokes are gonna be popular.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:49Jocko Willink?

  Chokes are gonna be very popular.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  Yep, especially that, the first one, like no one knows the gaming, you know, like, brother, just going out, like, bruh, remember Metamoros? The first Metamoros had a lot, had a lot of submissions. Cause no one was like, they didn't know, they're just like, frick, we just better go out there, you know, they didn't know.

• 1:24:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:05Speaker 02

  They didn't have any kind of game plan.

• 1:24:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  As much, you know?

• 1:24:07Jocko Willink?

  When you think thirty, because weren't those rounds thirty minutes, twenty minutes?

• 1:24:09Speaker 02

  Twenty, yeah.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Twenty minutes, seems like a long time.

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, no points.

• 1:24:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, until you go, oh, you know what, if I just can make it through twenty minutes. And dude, that, even though that can be a long time, it can also not be that long of a time.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, fully. And if you're surviving, especially if you're like the massive underdog, you just survive, you're like, draw, you know, like, but no one figured that out till like later. Cause this is, you know, the first one, you know, so yeah, oh yeah, very interesting.

• 1:24:32Jocko Willink?

  Jason Nolf will be interesting to watch. Three, three time NCAA champ, because he's, and he trains jiu jitsu too, but yeah, that's gonna be an interesting one. There's so many good guys in there. So many good guys in there. It'll be interesting. I'm looking forward to it. We training?

• 1:24:48Speaker 02

  We are training.

• 1:24:49Jocko Willink?

  Gonna need some fuel.

• 1:24:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:24:51Jocko Willink?

  Craig Jones is on a different kind of fuel.

• 1:24:56Jocko Willink?

  It's been interesting, you know, he's been open about his, his steroid use.

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  And he was talking about it today. But I don't recommend that kind of stuff. I know that there's some level of it that people can do. But I don't recommend it. Hey. I guess if you're going to a doctor and you have some issues, you get through those. But there's some other kind of fuel you can use.

• 1:25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:20Jocko Willink?

  I recommend you at least start with the other kind of fuel.

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's, let's just say you and I, look, I'll put myself in the same boat, we're not in any position to make those types of recommendations at this point.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  But we can recommend Jaco Fuel.

• 1:25:33Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. My experience, my knowledge, the whole thing, performance, the whole deal.

• 1:25:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. By the way, Jaco Fuel is official sponsor of the Craig Jones Invitational. So, you know, we'll be up there, we'll be getting after it, be hanging out and watching some I think we're gonna watch people get choked to sleep. Cause you're no way you're tapping to a choke, that's a zero percent chance. There's not, another prediction, no one's tapping to a choke. You can put me to sleep and I'll fight it until I'm unconscious.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:05Jocko Willink?

  Period, end of story.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like that.

• 1:26:07Jocko Willink?

  You've been choked out before, right?

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. You don't, you don't. Like at a certain point, it's just happening.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:15Jocko Willink?

  And you're, it's too late.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  Then again, I, I, of course, everyone's different, but I'm trying to think, okay, and consider this for yourself as well. When have you been choked out unconscious, under what circumstance? Cause there, I care, I don't think, and I don't think I would even do this where I'm just like, you know what? I'm not going to give you the satisfaction of a tap and then let myself go out. I've never done that, but I have been trying to get out of a choke, like a freaking, uh, uh, Darce choke. Like literally trying to get out of there and then yeah, just waking up all of a sudden. Or, um, like a triangle or something. I remember I was in a triangle and it was like, I feel it, but it doesn't feel super tight. And then I just woke up, you know, it's like that. It's like, I didn't know better, you know? Or if another one where the round was about to end and then I was like, oh, I'm not going to give them the satisfaction. I'm going to beat the bell or whatever. And then yeah, I got choked up.

• 1:27:01Jocko Willink?

  Sloan had me in a choke today and I looked at the clock, seven seconds left. And I was like, oh, there's, I can hold my breath for seven seconds, which I'm about to do.

• 1:27:11Jocko Willink?

  And I held my breath for seven seconds. And then, do you know how the, the, the clock was my phone today?

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:20Jocko Willink?

  And it was like ping.

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's all quiet.

• 1:27:23Jocko Willink?

  The round ended. And I didn't know how much, you know, and so he got me and I looked at the clock. It was like already into the red.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:32Jocko Willink?

  It was time over.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  You guys just didn't stop.

• 1:27:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, yeah, we didn't stop until I tapped. And then I was, I looked at the clock and go, bro, we're out of time, you know?

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:41Jocko Willink?

  Didn't count.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  Doesn't count.

• 1:27:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. It counted though. Bro. So, uh, Jaco Fuel, back to the subject at hand.

• 1:27:52Jocko Willink?

  If you need something, if you need protein, which you do, if you need greens, which you do, if you need hydration, which you do. If you need joint protocol, you need something for your joints, which you do. Check out jacofuel.com, get some milk protein, get some joint warfare, get some super krill. Get it. Get it. Go to jacofuel.com. Also, we have like a text thing, SMS thing. If you text Jaco Fuel to the number two, four, six, seven, two, I'll send you a voicemail. Occasionally say what up, take it after it. Uh, check out jacofuel.com, also Wawa Vitamin Shop, GNC Military Commissaries, Hafiz, Hanaford.

• 1:28:35Jocko Willink?

  Or Afees, Hanaford, Dash Stores in Maryland, Wakefern, Shopright, HEB, Meyer, Wegmans, Harris Teeter, Lifetime Fitness, Shields, and a bunch of small gyms. We got Jackson and Jared out there on the road. They're getting after it. They're like showing up. Talk about a rogue jujitsu scenario. You're showing up in schools. Hey, do you guys want to sell Jaco Fuel? Cool. Can I train? And that's what those guys are doing.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, like jujitsu schools.

• 1:29:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, jujitsu schools. So if those guys show up at your school, get yourself some Jaco Fuel in your academy, in your CrossFit gym, in your gym, in your powerlifting gym. If you want that, email [email protected]. Jacofuel.com, [email protected]. And we'll see you at the CJI Invitational. You coming?

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:29:24Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent?

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:29:26Jocko Willink?

  Surgeries are going to happen. Check.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  We'll see about that.

• 1:29:31Jocko Willink?

  Also, speaking of jujitsu, probably gonna need that jujitsu gi, or the jujitsu rash guard, or the jujitsu shorts. Go to originusa.com and get stuff that's made in America. Get stuff that doesn't support communism, doesn't support slave labor, doesn't support destruction of the environment. Does this sound like I'm talking about some crazy foreign situation to you? No, I'm talking about actually what happens. Slave labor makes your clothes in China. That's what happens. Then they take all the exhausted fumes and waste and they throw it into the river.

• 1:30:08Jocko Willink?

  It's terrible. We don't support that. We support freedom. We support America.

• 1:30:16Jocko Willink?

  We support originusa.com. I just ordered, we have these new shirts. Okay, so the RTX training shirts, we have an upgraded version of that. They're so good. They're perfect. It's made with this material called brrr. Except for my wife, you know, sometimes she has trouble pronouncing things. She calls it bruh.

• 1:30:42Jocko Willink?

  So the brah, the brah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz they, you know, in Britain, Australia, Boston, Hawaii, they don't, they don't pronounce the R at the end of a word.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, cuz my wife says, bah, yeah, bah, brah.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  Hey, that's how Hawaii is too. You talk pigeon, that's how.

• 1:31:03Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's, it, the thing is, the stuff is that's super light, like silky weight, base layer, that you just, it's perfect for everything. So I just ordered, I just ordered four, black, four. There's a color called ice, which is like a light color, so when it's hot out.

• 1:31:21Speaker 02

  It's like blue, but it's white.

• 1:31:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like, but it's got a blue tint to it. So I got four of those and I got four green. Called rifle green. I don't know who came up the name rifle green. But it's called rifle green as opposed to pine green. But it's like a, it's not quite an olive drab, but it's, it's like olive drab adjacent.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's like a, what do they call it, military green?

• 1:31:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's like a military-ish, greenish color. So I just ordered for myself those four colors. So anyways, check those out. They're awesome. They're, they're just the perfect, they're perfect for working out. They're perfect for, you gotta wear like some kind of a piece of clothing to look nice or whatever. You can wear these things underneath and feel comfortable, feel cool. It's got minerals in it or something that makes it feel cool. Like when you put it on, it feels cool.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  Okay, alright, that's some tech.

• 1:32:10Jocko Willink?

  So originusa.com, get yourself some American-made awesomeness. Also, we have a jiu-jitsu camp. The jiu-jitsu camp is sold out, but we still have room on our law enforcement, military, first responders, jiu-jitsu training, August 27th to August 31st in Maine. So come and check that out after you get done watching the CJI.

• 1:32:30Jocko Willink?

  And you know what else?

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  I do know what else. Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco Store. Go to jacostore.com. It's where you can get your Discipline Equals Freedom shirts. Uh, there's hats on there, there's hoodies on there, the shorts on there as well. Also represent the idea of good, few versions of that, you know, various apparel items on that one. Um, anyway, a lot of other stuff on there, not just those two things. So yeah, check it out. Um, also among those things is a thing called the Shirt Locker. Membership scenario.

• 1:33:01Jocko Willink?

  Cool t-shirts for you to wear.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  Yep, it's true. Different design every month, little bit outside of the box. In a good way, not a bad way.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 1:33:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, I believe you.

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  Good feedback on that one.

• 1:33:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  Let's face it.

• 1:33:14Jocko Willink?

  Hey, you know what? You know what tells me it's good because people request the old shirts because they're that dope.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And yeah, in certain, at certain times, I'll wear certain ones and then people will call me and text me and be like, hey, where do I get that shirt?

• 1:33:30Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Because they like it. Anyway, it's called the Shirt Locker. Newsign every month. It's on jocko store.com.

• 1:33:36Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Also, check out ColoradoCraftBeef.com or PrimalBeef.com to get yourself some steak or some ground beef or even some hot dogs, some beef hot dogs, which are hella good, by the way. So check those out. You need steak in your life. Make you stronger, make you better, make you faster, make you smarter. PrimalBeef.com, ColoradoCraftBeef.com, the best beef from awesome people, awesome companies. Subscribe to the podcast. Also check out Jocko Underground. Also check out our YouTube. Also check out Psychological Warfare. Also check out Flipside Canvas. Dakota Meyer, making cool stuff to hang on your wall. I've written a bunch of books. So you can check those out as well. You can get them wherever

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  you get books. Check out the Warrior Kid books. The Way of the Warrior Kid series. So you can help your kids or your neighbors or your nephew or your, your sister's neighbors, kids. Get these books for those kids. It's like $12. You know what I mean? And you change the trajectory of their lives. So check those out. Also, Mikey and the Dragons. Also, About Face by Hackworth, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy Leadership. You guys know the gig. Speaking of which, speaking of leadership, we have a leadership consultancy. It's called Echelon Front. We solve problems through leadership. Go to echelonfront.com if you have problems inside your organization and you need help with those problems. Those problems are leadership

• 1:35:05Jocko Willink?

  problems and we will help you solve those problems through leadership. Also, we have online training. Talked about that today. We talked about some of the online training, whether it's BJJFanatics.com. It's an online, it's an online training platform for jujitsu and guys have gotten excessively good, extraordinarily good from online training. There's a bunch of other things like that for jujitsu. It's just kind of interesting, right? If you think you can learn jujitsu from watching videos.

• 1:35:40Jocko Willink?

  And you can get exceptional from watching videos.

• 1:35:45Jocko Willink?

  Jiu Jitsu is a physical skill. Well, we have a mental skill of leadership. And just like you train Jiu Jitsu for moves, you need to train leadership to learn the techniques, learn the strategies, learn the moves of leadership. And if you want that online training, go to extremeownership.com and check out some of those courses. Also, if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization that helps our veterans heal. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out HeroesAndHorses.org. Micah Fink got people up in the damn forest, mountains,

• 1:36:31Jocko Willink?

  hunting animals with a whittled down piece of stick, killing bears, getting after it.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  And killing their demons as well. And that's what it's all about. Also, Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. So that's what we're doing. If you want to connect with us, once again, on the interwebs, BTeamJJ.com.

• 1:36:56Jocko Willink?

  Check out FightFoundation.com if you are interested in that CJI activity on Instagram. If you want to talk to or interact with Craig Jones, he's got a lot of funny stuff on there. Craig JonesBJJ on Instagram, CJI Official on Instagram. YouTube, B Team Jiu Jitsu. As for us, I'm at Jaco.com. I'm also on social media.

• 1:37:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm at Jocko Willink, Echo's at Echo Charles. Just be careful because you should be training or lifting or writing or reading instead of scrolling.

• 1:37:31Jocko Willink?

  But if you need to check in on us, that's where we're at. Also, once again, thanks to Craig Jones for joining us. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming by for the rolls this morning. Good times and thanks for spreading the word of jujitsu. And we get to train jujitsu and we get to go to competitions and we get to enjoy the sport and we get to enjoy life and freedom because the folks out there in uniform around the world who protect our way of life. So thanks to all of you. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, border patrol, secret service, as well as all other first responders. I hope you all are training jujitsu as well because it will help you protect yourselves and help you protect us.

• 1:38:15Jocko Willink?

  So thank you for what you do and go train jujitsu. And everyone else out there, same thing. If you're not training jujitsu, give it a shot. Go down to a local jujitsu academy. Walk on in there. Tell them you'd like to train. Your life will get better. And if you do train, then you know what to do. Keep getting after it. And that's all we've got for tonight. Until next time, this is Echo and Jaco.