559: Turning Unimaginable Loss Into Purpose. The Legacy of Marc Lee. With Debbie Mama Lee

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Twenty years after Navy SEAL Marc Lee was killed in Ramadi, his mother Debbie “Mama Lee” Lee joins Jocko and Echo to reflect on grief, faith, brotherhood, and the legacy Marc left behind. They discuss the work of America’s Mighty Warriors, helping veterans heal from the invisible wounds of war, supporting Gold Star families, and turning unimaginable loss into a mission to help others. 00:00 – 20 Years Since Mark Lee’s Death Mama Lee reflects on losing Mark, faith, grief, and the extraordinary legacy that has grown from his sacrifice. 14:40 – Mama Lee Returns Debbie Lee joins Jocko and Echo to reflect on the Task Unit Bruiser reunion and seeing Mark’s teammates together again after 20 years. 25:12 – Brotherhood Forged in Ramadi Remembering fallen teammates, reconnecting with old friends, and why staying connected to the people who shared the experience matters. 35:22 – Random Acts of Kindness How Mark’s final message inspired America’s Mighty Warriors to provide immediate help to veterans, military families, and others in crisis. 39:30 – Choosing to Keep Fighting Through Grief Mama Lee describes the devastation of losing a child and the decision to turn that pain into purpose and service. 45:28 – You Won’t Feel Like This Forever Jocko and Mama Lee discuss the overwhelming nature of grief, losing control of your emotions, and learning to ride the wave until you can move forward. 1:00:35 – Get It Out of Your Head Why talking, writing, sharing stories, and connecting with others can help process pain instead of allowing it to grow darker inside. 1:12:40 – Healing the Invisible Wounds of War Mama Lee explains Helping Heroes Heal, traumatic brain injuries, blast exposure, sleep problems, suicide, and the veterans whose lives have been changed through treatment. 1:26:00 – Helping Veterans and Gold Star Families Heal The retreats, treatment programs, and plans for a dedicated facility designed to bring veterans and families together while supporting their recovery. 1:31:14 – Gold Star Families and the Power of Helping Others Mama Lee discusses retreats for Gold Star parents and families, while Jocko reflects on how even a small act of kindness can completely change someone’s outlook. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 559 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:06Jocko Willink?

  August 2nd, 2006, the day my son took his final breath.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  How can it have been 20 years?

• 0:16Jocko Willink?

  I remember that day so vividly. I remember those soul piercing words that took my breath away and changed my life forever. We are sorry to inform you that your son, Navy SEAL Mark Lee, has been killed in action.

• 0:33Jocko Willink?

  I'd been a widow for 12 years and survived that grief, but this is my child.

• 0:40Jocko Willink?

  How can I breathe again? Grief has a way of stealing your breath.

• 0:47Jocko Willink?

  Yet, when I felt like I couldn't breathe, God breathed for me. He comforted me and carried me when I didn't have the strength to stand.

• 0:57Jocko Willink?

  In the midst of the pain, He gave me a new purpose and passion. He continues to heal that heart that I thought would never beat again.

• 1:06Jocko Willink?

  20 years later, I can look back and see what God has done with every breath He has given me.

• 1:13Jocko Willink?

  I've watched veterans who once struggled with traumatic brain injuries, post-traumatic stress, and suicidal thoughts, find hope and healing. Men and women who didn't want to take another breath are now excited to live again. I've watched Gold Star families who were drowning in grief discover they weren't alone.

• 1:34Jocko Willink?

  We've had the privilege of providing comfort, hope, encouragement, and helping them heal and find peace. I've watched military families in crisis breathe a sigh of relief when they receive help within hours through our Random Acts of Kindness Grants for medical bills, funeral expenses, home adaptations, and emergency needs, reminding them that they are not alone in their crisis.

• 2:01Jocko Willink?

  I've watched little children hug a Build-A-Bear we gave them with Daddy's recorded voice inside, giving them the comfort of hearing his voice while he was deployed.

• 2:14Jocko Willink?

  What a legacy Mark has left in 20 years.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  On the 20th anniversary of Mark's death, Task Unit Bruiser gathered in San Diego.

• 2:25Jocko Willink?

  For three days, there was laughter, catching up, stories, hugs, memories, and some tears. I've been blessed over the years to spend time with many of Mark's teammates, and every time, I'm reminded there is something incredibly special about the bond between brothers.

• 2:44Jocko Willink?

  Sunday morning, before we headed to Fort Rosecrans, I was spending my usual quiet time with the Lord.

• 2:52Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't looking for a special message that day. I was simply reading where I had left off. Then I came to Proverbs 17. My eyes stopped on verse 17. "A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity."

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  I smiled. How perfect for today.

• 3:16Jocko Willink?

  God's Word is always so relevant for life. Then I remembered the shirt I had chosen to wear that morning was our Mark Lee Memorial Shirt. Across the back, underneath the field cross, was one word.

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  Brotherhood.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  That's no coincidence. That verse, this shirt, and the Brotherhood had gathered that weekend. The night before, during dinner, I shared a story about Mark that always makes me smile. Mark loved giving gifts, not just giving them, finding the perfect one. He would spend hours searching for exactly the right gift, but once he found it, he could hardly wait for you to open it. One Christmas, he came home with a gift already wrapped for me. He proudly showed it to me and begged me to open it right then. I told him, "No, put it under the tree, or I won't have anything to open Christmas morning." He couldn't wait. Within minutes, he ripped off the paper himself because he couldn't contain his excitement and wanted to see my face when I opened it.

• 4:21Jocko Willink?

  It was a beautiful gold flatware set that matched my china perfectly. He wanted me to use it for Christmas dinner. That was Mark. In January, several months after Mark was killed, I drove from Arizona to San Diego to meet with his teammates for dinner.

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  They knew I was bringing each of them a surprise. During my first meeting with President Bush, I had taken the Charlie Platoon team picture and shared who each of the men were and that special bond they had. I asked if he would personalize and sign one for every member of the platoon.

• 5:01Jocko Willink?

  He graciously did, and that was the surprise I was bringing them.

• 5:06Jocko Willink?

  To my surprise, when I arrived, they had booked me the Presidential Suite at the Grand Hyatt. It was massive, unlike any hotel room I had ever stayed in, and it had an amazing view of the city. I suggested ordering food and staying in the suite for dinner.

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  That evening, before I gave them their gift, I told them the Christmas story about Mark and his love for giving gifts. Then I looked around the room and shared my realization. You, each one of you, are Mark's final gift to me.

• 5:45Jocko Willink?

  At the time, I knew this was a special gift and that they were extraordinary men. I had no idea just how priceless that gift would become.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  Over the last 20 years, the relationships have deepened. They've become family and embraced me as Mama Lee.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  Mark didn't just leave me memories. He left me his brothers.

• 6:10Jocko Willink?

  God knew exactly what I would need before I ever realized it. Mark's final gift to me was his brotherhood.

• 6:20Jocko Willink?

  My thoughts went back to what the day would bring, as we honored and remembered Mark 20 years after he had died. Oh, how much I still miss Mark. I met Leif, Jenna, and their kids at the car, and we drove up to Fort Rosecrans. A large group had met at the entrance, but we drove straight to Mark's grave as we had a big wreath and his picture and a stand to place it on. There was already a large gathering of people at his grave. I got out of the car and walked to his headstone. I carefully placed the wreath, Mark's picture, and other flowers so they wouldn't blow over in the breeze.

• 7:01Jocko Willink?

  Then I stepped back and looked at Mark's headstone to focus on and reflect. I could feel the emotions swelling.

• 7:10Jocko Willink?

  Then came the tears.

• 7:13Jocko Willink?

  It never gets easy to see your child's name engraved on the headstone or a memorial wall. Quietly, I prayed, "Lord, please help."

• 7:25Jocko Willink?

  The crowd that had gathered at the entrance started to walk down the hill. Over 100 people from Task Unit Bruiser and their families had gathered 20 years later. Mark loved deeply, and he is deeply loved.

• 7:42Jocko Willink?

  The chaplain prayed, and then several of Mark's teammates shared stories and memories. I waited until I thought everyone was done. I began with the words that had been on my heart all morning. 20 years ago, Mark took his final breath.

• 8:00Jocko Willink?

  I paused, emotions surfacing again, only stronger. I didn't think I would ever be able to breathe again.

• 8:10Jocko Willink?

  The tears came, and it seemed like forever before I could control the emotions and continue. When I finally gathered myself, I looked around at the men standing there. The Brotherhood.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  The verse I had read that morning suddenly wasn't just a verse anymore.

• 8:29Jocko Willink?

  It was the story God had been writing for 20 years.

• 8:34Jocko Willink?

  "A brother is born for adversity."

• 8:40Jocko Willink?

  Ramadi forged a brotherhood born through deep adversity and loss. Mark's sacrifice brought us together and became the beginning of the bond I would share with these men, an adversity that none of us would have chosen. Yet through that adversity, God created something beautiful. Over the last 20 years, I've had the privilege of watching them become husbands, fathers, and leaders. I've celebrated weddings, rejoiced over the births of their children, honored promotions, applauded retirements, cried with them at far too many funerals, and watched them answer God's call to new missions in life.

• 9:23Jocko Willink?

  20 years later, they still gather. They still laugh together. They still remember. They still carry one another's burdens. That kind of brotherhood isn't ordinary. It was forged in the adversity of Ramadi. It was strengthened by sacrifice, and it continues because of love. Somehow, by God's grace, He allowed me to become part of that family too. I shared with them that morning that years ago, while Mark was in Ramadi, He called, and during that conversation, He tried to explain the brotherhood to me.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  I remember questioning Him, "As close as you were with the brother you grew up with for 28 years?" And He replied, "Yes, Mom, that close." I reminded Him that I had not birthed them, so they couldn't be His brothers, and we left it at that. The week Mark died, I had several of his teammates in my home, and I started to see that they loved him so much, and as much as we did, and that they were hurting as much as we were. I now saw what Mark was trying to explain to me. There was a very special connection and bond, and they were indeed His brothers.

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  As I stood there at Mark's grave, I shared something the Lord has been teaching me over the past year. For years, I would say, "I get to see the impact Mark is still making, but would I rather have him back?" Yes, in a heartbeat. Then about a year ago, I was on the phone sharing those same words. I started to say them again, "But would I rather have Mark back?" I stopped. I couldn't finish the sentence. Instead, I looked up to heaven and quietly said, "Sorry, Mark. I can't say that anymore."

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  I proceeded to tell the person that if I meant taking back all the good that had been done, every veteran whose life had been saved from suicide, every Gold Star family we have given hope to and walked alongside and provided comfort, every random act of kindness, every life touched because God brought beauty from unimaginable tragedy, no, I wouldn't want that. I shared that even if I could bargain a deal with God and get Mark back here, Mark would be so upset with me. "Why would you do that, Mom? Do you know how amazing heaven is? I'm in the presence of our Savior."

• 12:21Jocko Willink?

  Mark isn't missing out or wishing he could come back. He's exactly where he longed to be. He was a man who loved Jesus Christ with all his heart, and I know beyond any doubt that one day, I'll see Him again. That is the unshakable hope we have as believers. So yes, I still miss my son every day, but grief no longer has the final word. Hope does. Mark was not defeated. He was redeployed to heaven. That's victory.

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  I'm ready whenever God calls me home, but until then, by God's strength, I will give 100% to the mission He called me to. I will continue to love and provide hope, healing, comfort, respite, and encouragement to those who serve and defended us and their families. I will count my blessings daily and thank God for one of Mark's greatest gifts to me, His brotherhood.

• 13:41Jocko Willink?

  And that right there was a note written by Debbie Lee, or as we call her, Mama Lee. Because clearly, if Mark is our brother and Debbie is his mom, well, that makes her our mom too. And she is an amazing woman, a woman of strength and spirit and faith. And she has been on this podcast before, Episode 368. So if you want to hear about Mark Lee's life and the ultimate sacrifice he made for his friends and for his country, then go listen to that podcast.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  But through Debbie, Mark's spirit and his legacy lives on through her foundation, America's mighty warriors. And there is no doubt, he is still absolutely helping his teammates, encouraging them, guiding them, and in some cases, still saving their lives. It is an honor to have Mama Lee back with us tonight to share how Mark continues to impact the world and make it a better place for all of us. Mama Lee, welcome back.

• 14:53Speaker 01

  You bet. Thanks for having me back again.

• 14:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know. I was telling you kind of before we hit record, I was gonna pull some little sections out of that note that you had written and sent out, and I just couldn't, I couldn't find any parts to edit out, and I just, it's just so powerful when I read it, that I just said, "I'm just gonna read the whole thing." So it's a powerful note, and that was a really, you know, so it's based on the fact that we had a task, SEAL Team 3, tasking a bruiser. We had a reunion in San Diego centered around the day that Mark was killed, August 2nd, but we were here for a couple, a few days. And, you know, a bunch of the guys came out, and it was just an awesome time.

• 15:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, some of these guys, you know, you just don't see them. You just don't see them. And it's weird too, because when we came back from that deployment, it's 2006 when we come back from that deployment, there's still 15 years of war left or something like that, 10 years, maybe 12 years of war left. It's not like we came home and now we were done. No, guys rolled into the next platoon, and the next platoon, and the next platoon. And so that we didn't even really have, you know, I talked about when I talked that night, that I talked at the dinner, I talked about the Band of Brothers movie. And, you know, for them, when it was over, it was over. Like, they were all done.

• 16:23Jocko Willink?

  Like, okay, we're done with this. Now we're gonna ride a boat home together, and we're gonna carry on with our lives. But for guys in this war, you would get done with the deployment, but it wasn't over. You know, that deployment was over, but you were gonna roll into another one and another one. And so there was no closure. You know, we'd never, we never even had like a final muster or anything like that. We had funerals we'd go to, you know, we all, we, yeah, too many. But those are, those are, those are just really just reopening of things. And so to get everyone together and see everyone after 20 years was awesome. It was awesome that you were there. But what was your, what was your assessment of the whole thing?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  I thought it was an amazing weekend. I get the privilege, you know, to see a lot of you guys through the years. I wasn't doing the deployments, but I'd be in San Diego a lot, and because you guys are based over here, you know, whenever I came into town, I'd be calling, saying, "Hey, let's all get together for dinner, let's go to the park," or, so I've stayed pretty connected. There's a few of them, you know, that I wasn't as close to and didn't stay as connected to. We had, you know, one of our other guys who's still active duty, who was, you know, in Hawaii, so we rarely saw him, so it was good to see him back here. But just to have so many of you guys all together and the families, you know, I've gotten really close to a lot of families and to see, you know, some of these kids,

• 17:48Speaker 01

  you know, I was there when they were born, you know, I think of Jeremy's little, you know, runt of a guy who was literally pre, you know, preemie that was born. I held him like in the palm of my hand. He was teeny tiny. And, you know, to see the big, strapping young man, you know, he is now heading off to college, and, and it does, it just makes me see all those blessings in one place. And yet, you know, as I said, man, probably the most emotional time I ever had, you know, trying to speak publicly. And I just started to break down, and for me, again, it seemed like it was five minutes. I'm no, it wasn't quite that long, but, but just to see each one of you and what's happened

• 18:31Speaker 01

  in your lives, the changes in spite of all of that adversity, and so many overcomers that have just accomplished amazing things, and to see their families and to see life continue on, and that yet, you know, at the same moment to be there at my son's grave. And it is because of that loss that those lives continued on and, you know, have been able to do so much more, you know, and as, you know, I wrote in that, that letter, you know, Mark wasn't defeated. You know, as a believer, the end goal, we know we get to spend eternity, you know, with Christ. There's no timeframe now for him. And, you know, scripture tells us there's no sickness, no sadness, no sorrow, no pain.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  You know, and as I commented, if I tried to broker him back here, he would, he'd be pissed at me. He'd be like, what the heck are you doing, mom? Really? Seriously? Are you kidding me right now?

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that was kind of the thoughts that I was, you were, as you were talking and I was thinking to myself, he wouldn't, he wouldn't

• 19:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 19:29Jocko Willink?

  Accept that.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  He's had way too much impact.

• 19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:32Jocko Willink?

  And he'd say, no, I'm not going to trade all that.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:34Jocko Willink?

  These other people, you know, he, he'd put everyone else before himself, just like he always did.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  But to get to see that and all of you guys together was, was pretty amazing. So, and it was great. You know, like I said, I know the love that you guys all have for Mark that, you know, especially through you, Jocko and, and Leif and the platform, you guys have had the over and over, you, you know, honor Mark and everybody knows the love that you have for him. And, but to see so many others that maybe don't have that platform and to know, you know, how much they still, 20 years later, you know, love Mark. We had the privilege of, and a lot of this, you know, reflects on the 20 year mark with the reunion that we had in, you know, January for Ramadi with John McFarland and that group.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  But we had the last muster we were at, you got to meet some of the guys that actually went to the Masters College with Mark. And they made a coin to honor Mark, a 20 year coin. And of course I'm like, uh, duh, why didn't I, you know, sorry, Mark, mom didn't think to have a 20 year coin made for you. But they came up and presented me one and presented you and, and Mark's other teammates that were there. But the college reached out to me and said, you know, we're writing an article about Mark and we'd love to have, you know, an interview with you to find out more. It's been 22 years since Mark was at the Masters College. How many people do you know that 22 years later, the university or college that you went to is calling saying, hey, can, can we tell his story? You know, he's still making an impact. Can we?

• 21:04Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, that, that pain is what led to that purpose and that passion. And, and God continues to use that such a crazy way to literally change the world. You know, Leif and I got to go when Johnny Kim launched to the International Space Station. I'm like, well, I guess I can't say impacted the world now. It's out of this world. But, um, just, you know, that I was blessed to be his mom. God could have picked anybody else and I got that blessing and to see the change. So thanks for continuing to honor Mark and be part of that legacy, you know, that keeps his legacy alive.

• 21:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, um, it's pretty awesome. We, we, um, on the second night that we were in town for the reunion, the UDT SEAL Museum in downtown San Diego opened their doors for us at night and, and let us use the whole facility and let all the fam. And, you know, some of these families, they don't, they don't know what, what the SEAL teams really are, you know? And so for some of them that traveled in that haven't, you know, maybe they got out or maybe they just, their, their family was, I mean, my family didn't really know too much about the SEAL teams when I was in, like they didn't, it just, it just wasn't really part of it. And so for everyone to be able to come in there and go through the tour at the UDT SEAL Museum

• 22:19Jocko Willink?

  and try the, uh, they have like a video game, a virtual video game where you, you put on and you fast rope onto a ship. And like, do you clear the ship and all the stuff?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Hanging out.

• 22:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And so, you know, for, to watch the kids do that and to get an appreciation for it. I thought that was awesome. And then I think a lot of, you know, look, guys have ups and downs, right? Um, and we've had some guys and that have, that have been, been pretty high up and pretty, pretty rough times as well. And, you know, I think that everyone being together and realizing like, oh yeah, this is not, it's not abnormal. Right? It's not abnormal to, you know, get, start thinking about, well, you know, the losses that we experienced and the things that we went through and, and have, you know, start thinking about the sad times. And like, that's okay. That's like, we all do that.

• 23:13Jocko Willink?

  And, um, so I thought that that was nice to see everyone. And, and the other funny thing is, like I said, sometimes you don't see a guy for 15 years, 10 years. And the thing is, when you have this shared, um, past, this shared history, you walk up to somebody that you haven't seen in 15 years and the first thing out of their mouth is like some wisecrack about something that happened 17 years ago.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 23:38Jocko Willink?

  You know, and you're like, oh yeah, it's like without missing a beat. It's almost like there's, those memories are frozen in time. And as soon as you re-engage with those guys, it's like boom, we're right back there.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:50Jocko Willink?

  And, and the same shenanigans are happening. And I think that's a really powerful thing too, to think, you know, you, when you see someone from a distance, you might think, oh, they're probably different now. But then you talk to them and you go, no, they're not any different. It's the same, it's the same dude that was a knucklehead then. He's still a knucklehead now and I'm, I was a knucklehead then and I'm a knucklehead now. And, and so I thought that was a really nice, um, thing to be able to see guys that we haven't seen for a long time, meet their families. You know, and a lot of times, you know, my wife would say, oh, is that the guy that whatever?

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 24:29Jocko Willink?

  All of our families have heard some part of the story. Exactly. So to say, oh yeah, that's the guy that did this. Oh yeah, that's the guy that we were talking about over here. Oh yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  That's the one that fell through the roof. Yeah, that's him.

• 24:38Jocko Willink?

  Like each one of these guys has their own little, um, they play a character in our families heads.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  And so for the families to go, oh, that's who that is.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay. I got it. That's who that is. I think it just connected a lot of the dots and just bring, bring the guys together.

• 24:59Jocko Willink?

  And it was just, it was just an awesome time. Yeah. We did the first night at a restaurant down in, down in Ocean Beach. And that was great. And, and then the second night at the UDT SEAL Museum in downtown San Diego, which again was just really, really awesome. And then we went up to Rosecrance on Mark's birthday. Which, you know, and we went from Mark's, we, we walked down to Mikey and then from Mikey, we walked over to Seth. Cause you know, Mikey's

• 25:27Speaker 01

  They're all part of the task unit.

• 25:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they're all part of the task unit. And, you know, obviously Ryan's not, Ryan's not buried there and neither is Chris. You know, we definitely thought about them, but walking down and, and just kind of sharing stories. And, you know, the stories were, was interesting because the stories were kind of all over the map. You know, they were kind of everything from some funny story to a heroic story to, and it is also interesting because you get to hear other people's perspectives. And, you know, that we had, you know, the command master chief was there. And, you know, he had his perspective of things, which was just, you know, it's just great to hear. You know, 20 years ago, it wasn't like the command master chief was going to sit down with me and tell me

• 26:13Jocko Willink?

  what his perspective was, not as, not as like the command master chief, but as a SEAL, as a 30 year SEAL. But to hear him tell that to a whole group is like, hmm, that means a lot.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that was so healing for you guys to come together. We saw that, you know, I referenced the Ramadi reunion again, but so many of those guys 20 years later that came back together and we had some that said, man, I didn't, I haven't seen him since we left the battlefield. You know, and then I ran into other groups and I'm like, when's the last time you had, you know, connection? Oh, we started a group and we are, since the day we left, day one, we've been connected and together. And when I met those guys at breakfast that morning, I said, I'm going to be bold and make a statement here, but I'm guessing you haven't lost any of your guys to suicide. They said, no, we haven't lost one. And that's what's so important is to stay connected, to stay in that tribe. Those others that know exactly what you're going through. Yeah. Like you said, maybe a different perspective,

• 27:08Speaker 01

  but they're struggling too. And then they learn, like you said, it's okay. When you're having those moments that you're hurting and you're missing them, something would be wrong with us. You know, I run into people all the time and they're like, so when did you feel like you got over losing Mark? I'm like, got over? Are you kidding me? I'll never get over losing Mark. You'll never get over, you know, losing Mark. But you learn ways to manage and you learn ways to cope. But when you can come back together and find out, oh, Jocko, you still have those moments? When you, you know, oh, so I am okay. So this is normal, you know? That this civilian world can't understand that.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  I've got a glimpse, probably more than most civilians understand that. But I'm still a civilian, you know, I wasn't, even though I was in the combat zone twice, even though I went on patrol with the first of the fourth Cav.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  It's a glimpse. I can't understand what it's like to go through that intense training. We didn't have bullets whizzing by us when we were out there. Nothing was happening. Not that something couldn't have happened, but nothing did happen while I was out there. So no one else can understand, but when you bring your teammates back together, when that brotherhood comes back together and you share those stories and you see those emotional moments and you got that, you know, grabbing their shoulder saying, it's okay buddy, it's normal, you know? And I love that one video that you've got that you've done so well, that says that very thing, you know? And in better detail than what I'm saying, but it's powerful. It's healing.

• 28:41Jocko Willink?

  I had a guy that, um, I talked to and he had had like a really rough time on the deployment. And he had lost a guy, couple of guys wounded. He'd gotten blown up. It was just a really hard deployment and he ended up not, not finishing the deployment. And because he was, he was messed up from, from IED blasts and.

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  The amount of like guilt that he felt that he didn't do his job was it was absolutely awful burden on his face as I'm talking to him. And I just said, I said, hey, man, like, what you went through is not normal. You're not a human being.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:30Jocko Willink?

  Human beings are resilient creatures, but they're not meant for this.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:33Jocko Willink?

  You're not meant to have repetitive concussive blasts that rattle. There's nothing in nature that does that. There's nothing in nature that rattles your brain over and over again like that. Okay, if you're a boxer, being a boxer is not normal, by the way. That's not a normal. That's not normal.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  I'll agree.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  That repeated concussion on your brain is not normal. Seeing your friends get wounded and maimed is not, is not normal. Even if you were, you know, a caveman, you wouldn't be seeing that on a regular basis. And just to go through that and then be in a leadership position where you're responsible for those guys. I said, this is not, this is not normal. And the fact that you, that you physically had an injury, and again, it was a, it was TBI.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:20Jocko Willink?

  But you know, the reports were that he was, you know, he couldn't concentrate. He was dazed. Like, yeah, that's an absolute TBI. This is nothing, that's as much, that's as much of an injury as if I cut your arm off. Like, it's the same thing. It's your brain getting rattled around and, and you couldn't continue with your mission. There's absolutely nothing, nothing, nothing at all to be ashamed about that.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah.

• 30:43Jocko Willink?

  And so many guys, I think, they hold themselves to such a high standard that when they don't meet an impossible standard, they feel shame.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:55Jocko Willink?

  And, and it's just terrible. So, so for guys to see that, oh, yeah, though, oh, yeah, this is normal, that you're gonna be, you know, it's like someone asked you when you're, if you've gotten over losing your son, it's like, no, I'm not gonna get over that. I don't wanna get over that. That's what I, that's, that's part of me, that's part of the memory. The sadness is part of the, the, the joy.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, if you didn't have the joy of knowing someone like Mark, I feel sorry for you that you didn't. But, and that's, that's, that's the reward. And there's pay. The pay is you, you get sad when you think about it. And so, yeah, I think bringing the guys together and, and you know, you always wish you could do it more. I mean, you wish you could have everyone live in the same compound. You know, let's move back into team three and live in, live in our cages. That'd be great. It'd be fun. We had so much fun back then. But it just, that's not the way the world works. So, um, hopefully guys stay connected, um, via, you know, via social media and via text messages and all that stuff. Stay connected, stay together, because it is, like you said, when, when guys stay

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  together, they have someone to talk to, they have someone that they can discuss things with, and someone that is going to help, you know, drag them out of a dark place. You know, I had a guy in the other day, uh, on the podcast the other day that went through Ranger School. And at one point, he was gonna quit. And one of his buddies was like, you know, hey, are you all right? And he's like, well, you know, I'm not doing too good, blah, blah, blah. And the guy goes, cool. Well, you can quit tomorrow if you want. He said, hmm. Okay. So he kept going. And then in the next Ranger phase, there's three phases in Ranger School, the next phase, sure enough, he sees his buddy and his buddy's hurting, his feet were all messed up. And his buddy's, his buddy's like, you know, looking like

• 32:47Jocko Willink?

  he's gonna make that move. And, uh, he says, hey, what's, what's going on, man? He's like, my feet are just messed up. This wasn't meant to be. I think it's just not, you know, I, I wanted to do it, but I don't think this is really my thing. And he goes, well, that's cool. You can always quit tomorrow. And so it's a great story of, you know, when you're, you're gonna have ups and downs. And when you have a buddy that can grab you when you're down, you're probably gonna have-

• 33:14Speaker 01

  Knows when you're having that down.

• 33:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 01

  Instead of just being a loner and no one else is there. Yeah.

• 33:18Jocko Willink?

  And you're probably gonna have to pull that buddy up at some point and say, hey, you know what? It's okay. Come along with me. We're gonna be all right. So I think that when you have a big enough group, there's always gonna be someone that's gonna be able to lend a helping hand. There's always gonna be someone that needs it, but there's always gonna be someone that says, hey, man, we're gonna be all right. We're gonna get through this. We got, we got plenty of things to look forward to in the world. Let's get through today.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that even reflects back to courage. You know, that's my theme that, um, is, you know, part of my story. But it takes courage to be able to, to share those, you know, questionable stuff. It takes courage to say, man, I'm hurting. This sucks right now. That is not weakness. That's courage that takes to do that. And then, you know, to be able to be there for one another. Man, that's rewarding. When you can be there and encourage someone else that, and, you know, down the depths of despair, or, you know, how many veterans we've had that have come through our program or that we've touched base with trying to get them into the program, that are struggling with suicide. They don't wanna leave. They've lived. They've lost all hope. You know, and someone comes along and walks alongside them and lets them know what you're going through is very normal. And we

• 34:27Speaker 01

  can help. It doesn't have to be this way for the rest of your life. There's things that we can do that, you know, with that frontal lobe of your brain that's taken that intense blast wave exposure that you talked about over and over and over. We can heal you, not just mask the symptoms. And so I think that's the other, one of the benefits of, you know, losing Mark and, um, I don't know that benefit of losing Mark is the right wording there, but the outcome of losing Mark.

• 34:53Jocko Willink?

  Silver lining, yeah, I guess.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Was that to be there for so many guys, you know, and gals that are struggling and that don't want it. Like you said, the one with TBI is like, no, I, I should be embarrassed that I wasn't there. No. Are you kidding me? That's a severe injury. That controls your, your sleep, your emotions, your memory. We're Looney Tunes if we can't, you know, have any of that. No wonder they can't cope. But, you know, we can give them that hope and say, we can help fix this, you know, permanently, not just mask it. So.

• 35:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, let's get into that a little bit. You got America's Mighty Warriors, which, um, you started in, in 2008, I think officially. You kind of unofficially started, but at some point you said, wait, I need to, I can't just do all this stuff.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  I'm running out of my own funds. Yeah.

• 35:38Jocko Willink?

  This isn't gonna work. So you eventually, um, started America's Mighty Warriors. And one of the, one of the key components of that is something called Random Acts of Kindness. And this is spawned from, uh, the letter that, the last email letter that you got home from Mark, where he talked about just random acts of kindness. When's the last time you bought somebody a cup of coffee? When's the last time you paid for a tank of gas, uh, for someone that you didn't know, or you did know? And, you know, I, the stuff that, so it's one of the most direct, um, um, pipelines to get someone immediate help that I know of in the world. If someone needs help in a matter of hours, a, a check can

• 36:23Jocko Willink?

  be heading their way. And they can, it can help get them through some sort of trauma. And, uh, you know, I was thinking about the things that, that have happened in the past few years. There's a SEAL got in a car accident, had medical bills, check to him. There was a Green Beret Master Sergeant for, uh, stage four cancer, needed help with bills, check went to him. There was a SEAL whose mother died. They needed help with the funeral expenses. Check went to him. Retired Marine had a house that got flooded. Check went to him. Uh, there was a pilot that was killed in the line of duty, needed to help offset some of the family, uh, travel expenses. Check went to him. A, a police officer had to take time

• 37:03Jocko Willink?

  off from work after getting injured. Wasn't getting paid, needed to pay his rent. Check went to him. Uh, there was a SEAL that, that needed to recover from back and shoulder surgeries. And guess what? He all of a sudden didn't have the income he needed. Check went to him. Uh, a Navy, retired Navy diver's mortgage, he got injured and couldn't work, sent a check to him. Um, those are just some of the, we had SEALs that needed cars. Like, hey, I don't have a car right now. I'm in a bad situation. Can I get some help? Yes. So those are the kind of things, I mean, those are like a small fraction of the examples of the random acts of kindness. And I know you do, you personally do more minor ones

• 37:47Jocko Willink?

  that are just, you know, nice kind of, but these are sort of some of the bigger picture ones.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  It's really cool. Um, right now, this week, I don't know if it's today or happened yesterday or tomorrow. But we were able to do a random act of kindness for a World War II veteran who was a prisoner of war. He did the, uh, baton death march.

• 38:09Jocko Willink?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  And was a prisoner of war. And of course, they just did a mass grave every time one of the prisoner of wars died and just threw him in the grave. Well, didn't have the technology back then to be able to discern, you know, who was who. And through DNA testing, they were able to determine who he was. And we were able to help fly the remains home and pay for the funeral expenses for this family. And granted, it's World War II, so his mom's not alive. You know, his immediate family's not alive. But so that his, um, great grandson and his family could go be there for the funeral. And I just think of, you know, Mark, my 28 year old kid that gave his life, you know, in 2006, and he's still impacting back

• 38:55Speaker 01

  to World War II. You know, even though Mark didn't know him, still a brother at arms, you know, that he's helping to be able to do that through the foundation. And it's just that care, whether it's, you know, through our Helping Heroes Heal program and the personal care we give, whether it's that care, it's like I talked about, and all those things. If we had to pull those things back and say, I selfishly want more care, you know? No, this is crazy, the things that are happening.

• 39:23Jocko Willink?

  Maybe for two days. Can we get him for two days?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Oh, can you imagine for two days, all the craziness?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  But it's, it's powerful. It is so powerful. And again, that comes back to a choice that was made. I had no choice. The news that was given to me on August 2nd, 2006. And as I said, I'd walked through death before. I, you know, had experienced grief. I knew this would be much harder. And when my husband died, I wrote in my journal two weeks after he died, what's wrong with me? Why am I still crying? Why have things not gone back to normal? I really had no clue what the grief journey was like. But I started reading and I read probably 25, 30 books on grief and what to expect and the seven stages of grief. And they, all of them say the toughest death that

• 40:14Speaker 01

  you can go through is the instant death of your child. And, and having lost a spouse and a child, I agree 100%. Now, you know, granted, my, it was a second marriage for me. It was not a, a good marriage. He, you know, cheated on me and not that I wanted him dead, but you know, it was still loss. So it's not like, I don't want to compare myself to someone who's been married to someone for 52 years and the love of their life. But in my experience, it definitely was true. That was much, much harder. Losing Mark. And I, I get it when people curl up in a ball and, you know, can't pull themselves out of that. But the pain wasn't any different for me. That pain was intense. And for me to, you know, curl up in a ball and feel sorry for myself,

• 40:59Speaker 01

  that wouldn't have brought Mark back. You know, the stress destroys our bodies. We see that all the time with, you know, you guys coming back and with the PTS and, but my choice was to put on his boots and pick up his weapon and stay in the fight. That's a choice. You know, that's that courage that comes in. Did I have it all figured out at that point when I made that choice? No, I just said, I'm not going to quit. I'm not going to give in. We had amazing support from August 2nd until the funeral. I came back home to Arizona, you know, I'm not near the SEAL Base where, you know, they're so great in the community of checking in. You guys were still

• 41:39Speaker 01

  all deployed, you know, so that support wasn't there. And I came back home and I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm starting the journey. This can be a long journey and I'm all by myself. There's nobody here to help. And again, you know, my personality's not have a pity party, but I'm like, okay, I can make this different for the next person. You know, little did I know that it'd be seven weeks or so later when we lose Mikey Mansour. And again, I'm still very fresh in the healing process. You know, my wound is not healed. The scab's not even there yet. But I came over to support the Mansour family. And I remember coming over, it's the same hotel we've stayed in, the same black cars, you know, I don't know if it's the exact same, but the same,

• 42:23Speaker 01

  you know, type of car came to pick them up. And I remember talking to the Admiral and he came over and he's like, how you doing? I'm like, I'm hanging in there. And he said, we want you to go with the family in their cars. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no. Ah, this is not about Mark. This is not about me. That's not why I'm here. I'm here to support the family. And literally, almost pleading in his lies, he looked at me like, yes, that's why we want you in that car. And so I got in there with the family. And of course, Mikey's buried up at Fort Osgrans where Mark is, ceremony at the same place. And I get up there and it's even the same style of casket. And I'm just like, oh, what am I doing? This is so painful. Now I know what it's like to receive that folded

• 43:06Speaker 01

  flag, you know. But I knew that's where I was supposed to be, you know, and stayed very close, you know, to the Mansour family. And, you know, but that was the one unofficially, you know, the first family that, that we supported there. But again, that was a choice to make that choice. And there's so many things in life that we have that opportunity to make a choice, you know, and it takes courage to do that. It may be tough to do that. It may be tough for our veterans to stand up and say, I can't cope anymore. I see no hope. I don't want to live anymore. You know, I need help. Instead of saying, no, someone else, you know, worse off than me needs this. No. You know, that takes leadership. That takes courage to stand up and say, I want that help.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  And so, you know, again, not that I had a plan laid out or decided I was going to do a foundation or, you know, God just kind of put me in places to be able to support and to help. And, you know, people can do that. They can make that choice, even in the midst of their pain and even in the midst of their injuries, whether it's, you know, physical, mental, spiritual, moral, you know, you can make that choice. You know, and then, you know, for me, God gave me the strength to do what I do every day. So then it's an honor. It really is an honor to see Mark's impact and to get to know so many of you guys. And I was talking to Nick Kush this morning and I said,

• 44:34Speaker 01

  I am a blessed woman, you know, that I have so many. And it, it was funny because, and I know you shared, I think it was Mark's Birthday Bash, a couple of years ago, the video that you sent. And I never even thought about it this way, but you know, he said, Mama Lee started out and she was there for Charlie Platoon. And she supported Charlie Platoon. And, and then it was Task Unit Bruiser. And then it was SEAL Team 3. And then it was the West Coast SEALs. And then it was, you know, all the SEALs. And then it was all the military, you know, and

• 45:03Jocko Willink?

  Now it's just global.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  But it wasn't everything, anything I ever set out to do, you know, it's just God put me in the right place and gave me a heart to be able to support and love on you guys. And, you know, what a blessing back that has been.

• 45:20Jocko Willink?

  You know, going, going back to the process of grief, and this is something that I, I really connect to a lot of other things. So, one of the things that I try and explain to people when they, when they lose somebody especially, is it's what makes it so strange is exactly what you just said with you were crying for two weeks and you say, hold on, what's wrong with me? So there's a huge part of, one of the weirdest things about grief is as an adult, as a grown person, you're supposed to be able to have some kind of control over your emotions. So, oh, I can't, you know, I need to push through this. So I need, you know, I'm not talking about some hardcore SEAL pushing through. I'm talking like, oh, oh, I, you know, somebody cut me in line at

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  the grocery store. I'm not going to yell and scream. I'm going to bite my lip and we're going to go through. Or, you know, your boss yells at you, you don't yell back. You go, yes, boss. You know, like, we learn to control our emotions as we grow up. And that's the difference between an adult and a baby, right? A toddler, you take his toy away, he screams and cries. An adult, you take their thing that they want away and they go, okay, I gotta figure out how to get this back. We try and use logic, right? Well, when you get hit with these heavy losses, all of a sudden, as an adult, you do not have control over your emotions. And I think that is very, very scary for people. And it definitely was scary for me. When I would lose, like, when Mark

• 46:50Jocko Willink?

  got killed, I'm like, oh, I'm not going to be able to talk right now. Like, I can't speak words. And so it's very strange. I mean, I was a, you know, I have pretty good control over my emotions. All of a sudden, like, oh no, you're not, you, you don't get a vote here anymore. This isn't, this isn't, your emotions don't care right now. Now, those emotional waves that hit you in the beginning, they will start to dissipate over time. And there's nothing wrong with that.

• 47:21Jocko Willink?

  It, it's okay. That's what, that's your, that's you, you are processing it. And every, every time you can't control your emotions, you've learned something, you figure something out, you make progress. And, and I'm not saying you will always control your emotions because sometimes you'll just get choked up and that's the way it's going to be. But those, they're in the initial moments, it sometimes seems like, oh, I'm, I'm never going to have control again. And I think that's what really scares people is they go, oh, wait a second, like you after two weeks going, oh my gosh, I'm going to feel like this forever. And what I try and tell people is like, it feels like that, but it's not, you won't be like that forever. You won't be like that forever. It won't happen. It might take two weeks, it might take a month, it might take three months, it might

• 48:06Jocko Willink?

  take six months. But eventually you, you will start to process it. You'll start to come to grips with it. But I think it's important to know, number one, is that, listen, it is, it is a finite amount of time that you will be completely a slave of your emotions. But that time will end. And, and then it's important to remember that, like, in that moment, you, you feel like you don't have a choice. You don't have a choice in that moment. But there will come a time, after a week or two weeks or a month where you go, okay, I understand that sometimes I'm going to be emotional, but I have to move forward and I can make a choice right now about what I'm

• 48:47Jocko Willink?

  going to do with this. And the reason I bring this up with, because it doesn't only apply to, you know, we're talking about the most, you, you're literally talking about the most extreme circumstance which there is, which is sudden death of a child, which can't even imagine, can't even fathom. That's the most extreme example of this. Well, people deal with much less extreme examples of this, but still, you know, someone gets fired from their job, someone finds out that their spouse is cheating on them, something goes wrong with their finances, like, there's always going to be stresses and situations that we get in where we start to feel an emotion that we cannot control. Whether it's panic, whether it's grief, whether it's anger.

• 49:29Jocko Willink?

  And you kind of have to learn to kind of ride that emotion for until it settles a little bit and you can, you know, it's like being on a horse that's just going wild. You gotta just, you gotta just hang on for a little while until that thing's gonna lose a little bit of its energy. It's like when you drop in on a big wave surfing, like you have to survive that drop in and eventually you'll get to the bottom turn and you'll catch the wave, but and eventually that wave loses its energy, you know, it's not gonna, it's not gonna continue. The horse is gonna run out of energy. So riding that wave, riding that horse until it settles down enough. And I think that's an important part when, when you're a friend, when you're a parent, when you're a spouse, when you're a mom or

• 50:09Jocko Willink?

  a dad, and you see someone that is trapped in those moments, what you're, what you're actually trying to do is just help them get through that moment. By the way, there's nothing you can say. I can't say, oh, oh, Mama Lee, you lost your son. I'm sorry for your loss. Doesn't matter. I mean, it's nice. It's fine. I'm sorry for your loss. I know how you feel. Don't say that. Um, you know,

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Or he's in a better place. Yes, I know he's in a better place, but right now my pain is intense.

• 50:35Jocko Willink?

  Right. And so there's nothing you're gonna say as a parent, as a spouse, as a friend, that's gonna, they go, oh, thanks for, oh, thanks, Jocko. Thanks for saying, you're, you're sorry for my loss, Jocko? Thank you. And I feel better now. No, that's not gonna happen. What you're really trying to do is be there and, and, and help them just be a, just be a, something that they can look to, something they can see, and just be there for them to, to help them, because they're gonna have to get out of that emotional state themselves. They gotta get them out of it. You're nothing, almost nothing you can say will help them get out of it. I can't, I've never been successful. It's like when my, when my daughters lose a wrestling match or a jujitsu match, there's not, there's really nothing I can

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  say. I get, there's nothing I can say. I've failed 100% of the time to say anything that made them not be mad, you know? So it's, it's one of those situations. They're emotional. There's nothing you can do about it. But as a friend, as a spouse, as a teammate, being there, letting them know, hey, I'm here. That's probably, if there's anything you could say, that might be it. If you need me, I'm here.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  I tell people that all the time when they're asking, okay, so and so, here's the relationship. They, you know, lost somebody. What do I do? You know, I don't, I don't know whether to go. I don't know whether to talk to them about their loved one. I don't know whether to not mention their, you know, the one that died. I don't know what to do. I said, just be there because you feel so all alone. You feel like no one else can possibly understand what you're going through. So you're correct that trying to say, oh, I understand what you're going through. I had a lady once, oh my goodness, I wanted to clean her clock. Um, I'd been speaking in an event and had shared Mark's story. And she came up to me afterwards and she said, she's all teary eyed. She says, I'm so sorry, you know, I understand. Well, if, if someone tells me that, maybe they didn't lose their kid in combat. I'm

• 52:22Speaker 01

  guessing they've lost a child. And it doesn't matter if it's combat or what way it is. It's, it's painful. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. Did you, did you lose your child? And she said, no, I just lost my cat. And I was just like, oh, and I was just, I just paused. I'm like, don't hit her. Don't hit her. But I'm like, and, and then I, I stepped back and I thought, you know what? Maybe this lady's never lost anybody close to her. Maybe that intensity of losing her pet, you know, people get really connected to their pets and it's painful. But at the time, I'm thinking, you did not just compare your cat to my son who stood up in the line of fire three times on his final day and gave his life? Are you

• 53:05Speaker 01

  kidding me right now? But I always said I was gonna write a book saying the stupidest things people to say, say, people say to people grieving. And it was just like, cause I've heard some wackadoodle. But, um, I think back to that grief statement that in the beginning, we couldn't, if we had to emotionally and mentally process instantly that loss, there's no way that we're designed to do that. You know, we'd all go commit hairy carry. And so I think God allows us to be in that numb, that painful, that crying, that, you know, just kind of shut down mode to try to, you know, it's like when they forcefully put people in a coma that are severely, you know, have injuries with swelling in the

• 53:48Speaker 01

  brain or whatever. And so they put them in a coma just to stay in that rest state. And I think that's part of that process. But, um, and it does, it gets, you know, the further you get from that day of loss, you shouldn't be crying all day long. In the beginning, yeah, I didn't want to get out of bed, you know, I just felt like, why? I got nothing to live for, you know, is how I felt at the time. But, um, that wasn't long that that stayed that way. And so I always encourage people, when those emotions come, when you feel like it's surfacing and you need to cry, let it out. Don't sit there and cry for hours and hours and hours when it's been 20 years later. You guys saw me up at the

• 54:29Speaker 01

  grave break down, you know, and I was able then to, you know, kind of pull it back together. But whenever I'm speaking and there's that intensity, I know, I'm gonna need to get home and have, you know, a little bit of cry, you know, and it goes for a few minutes and then I focus on something else. In the beginning, what I would do was Mark's amazing letter, go do random Mexichinist. And so I'd purpose, and I still do on the anniversary of his death or on his birthday, you know, I plan to go out and do random Mexichinist. And usually I'll go to base because it's, you know, important for us to do the military or I'll go, I live in a retirement community and you'll go to a restaurant, see lots of people with, you know, their military hats or t-shirts or something on. And so that

• 55:14Speaker 01

  makes me feel so cool, you know, when I go up and get to buy somebody and they're like, no, no, no, thank you. I'm like, oh no, my son was the first SEAL killed in Iraq and he challenged us to do this. And then they're like, okay, thank you. But, um, and then I would say it was probably about two weeks, you know, after we lost Mark and I was just, it was probably at that point where I was just before the funeral, just came back. And, because my focus was so much on you guys, you know, and our troops, you know, that are fighting still. And for you guys, I was like, oh my gosh, I can't make a decision at all. My brain is just mush. And, um, my focus was on, how are you guys gonna do this? You've

• 55:58Speaker 01

  still gotta do missions. You've still gotta go out and be 100% alert, you know? And, um, I remember laying in bed and just thinking, yeah, I got no reason to get up today. And in my thoughts, God said, you know, do you have hot water in your shower? You got something to be grateful for? Like, yeah, I live in America. Of course I got hot water in my shower. He's like, a lot of our troops, they're not even on a base where they can get up, take a shower today. I was like, oh, oh my gosh, how selfish of me. Yes, thank you, God, I have hot water in my shower. And I started doing that every morning. And I said that gratitude thing, if you wake up every morning before your feet hit the ground and find one thing to be grateful for, it changes your whole mindset for the day. And it's

• 56:41Speaker 01

  crazy how that happens. Um, but, and then about that same time, it was like, get up, walk to the end of the driveway. I'm like, and my driveway literally at that time was about the length of my car. So it wasn't a big feat. But because I just got up out of bed and did that, and I'm competitive. So then the next day it's like, okay, walk to the end of the block. Well, it was two houses over, so not a big accomplishment, but to where I walk five miles a day, every day. And then the other thing is I tell people, go serve, go do something for somebody else. Cause when you're doing something for somebody else, you feel better. And so that's, I call that my GPS, the gratitude and the physical, you know, hopefully not just walking to the end of driveway, but doing a good intense

• 57:25Speaker 01

  workout. There's feel good endorphins that are released when you do that. And so I think those things help people, you know, that are in that grieving process. Yes, when that's first happened, I can't go up to you and go, oh, here's the little GPS I'm gonna tell you to do. You know, this is gonna cure everything. But as you go through that process, um, and I know you've shared this before too, but, um, you know, I would share with people even from the beginning, as you're walking alongside the ocean and you see those waves, you know, and you don't want to get wet. You just want to enjoy the moment. And so you're walking along and you're watching and it's beautiful and things are great. And all of a sudden a sneaker wave comes up and just soaks you. And, you know, grief can be that way. You can be thinking you're doing pretty good with it. And then all of a sudden something

• 58:09Speaker 01

  hits and you're just like, oh, but don't take that as defeat that you're back at the beginning. It's just part of that process as, you know, God knows we can handle a little bit more of it than a little more of that healing takes place. And, and it is, it's, it's a journey.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a lifelong process.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:27Jocko Willink?

  Um, one of the things that, that you mentioned was, you know, you were, You went, you came out here for Mark's funeral and so you're, you know, you're dealing with all this stuff and you're distracted, right? And it's, you get home and all of a sudden you're in bed by yourself. It's like, oh, that's when it hits you. And I've heard that from a lot of people and there's a lot of people that they want to focus on something. They even, even the things like the administrative parts of a funeral, who's doing what? And we're going to put flowers, like, you know, the wives or the, the husband that's like very focused on the minute details of stuff because they're just trying to get their mind off the loss. And that was, that was for sure, like what my mode was. And it was like, oh, I don't know what, I don't know how to handle any of this, but I do know how to work. So we're going to work.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  What I do know how to do, I'm going to focus.

• 59:13Jocko Willink?

  That's what we did. Now that being said, also, once you started, you know, talking to people about it, and even what you just said, you know, you're in a restaurant, you pay for someone's meal and they say, oh, that's okay, ma'am. And they go, no, no. And you say, no, no, no. My, my son was the first seal killed in Iraq. That's like one moment where you talk about losing Mark, right? It's all encompassed in this one little statement. And I've always been very, um, you know, very supportive of talking about things, writing about things, sharing the things. And I think that every time that you do that, every time you express the feelings that you have,

• 59:57Jocko Willink?

  you get more control and understanding of those feelings. And it becomes, the, the net effect is very, very positive. So like for you, clearly, you know, at America's Mighty, you, you tell Mark's story all the time. I tell Mark's story all the time, right? And I can make it through, I can make it through Mark's story. I would say 60% of the time, I can make it through pretty stable. You know? 40% of the time, you know, there might be a sneaker wave that gets me. But you know, that, that comes from going through those emotions over and over again, and starting to see what they are, where they come from, why they're there. There's nothing wrong with them. It's okay.

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  And, and you know, for me, it was like, I was out of the gate, you know, writing eulogy for Mark at, in Ramadi. Like, I mean, I can't, I remember I was writing that thing and it was just, I was a disaster. I mean, just openly crying as I'm trying to write about Mark and everybody's winner, all these, it's like agony. And then, you know, you do it again, and you do it again, and you do it again, and you do it again, and you do it again, and you get to share the story. And you know, uh, maybe there's some, there's some metaphysical thing that happens when you share that, that joy and that pain, other people feel that joy and they feel that pain, they get a little bit of it. They take a little bit of it from you and that's kind of a good thing, right?

• 1:01:24Jocko Willink?

  They get to share those emotions, but, but I think that's a really positive thing to do. And again, this goes back to the whole idea of America's Mighty and connecting people together. Because if you don't talk to anybody and you just let those emotions, which, which are, they're, they're sadness, but, but sadness doesn't just say sad, stay sadness if it's, if it's inside you, right? It doesn't just stay sadness. It starts to turn and get darker and darker and darker. Whereas if you let it out, it actually lets people see the perspective and understand you, connect with people.

• 1:02:06Jocko Willink?

  So I think that, that idea of connecting with people, of sharing, of talking, of writing, is such an under, and you don't, look, I guess people go to a therapist to do this, right? Sometimes people get to a point where they gotta go to a therapist. That therapist, what are they trying to get you to do? They're trying to get you to talk. It's literally called talk therapy. They're just trying to get that out of you so that you can process it better. There is an element of detachment that comes when you say something, when you write something down, you're, it, it's no longer inside you. It's, you, you become detached from it. You can now see it from a, a different perspective. You can see what it looks like and that really helps you understand it. And so that's really powerful for people out there that you go through something hard.

• 1:02:50Jocko Willink?

  You got some challenges to face, even if it's like, you know, if, if, if you have financial trouble and you've got some financial burdens and they're weighing on you heavily and you don't talk to your wife about it, it's not going to get easier.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  It's not going to go away.

• 1:03:05Jocko Willink?

  It's not going to go away, you know, if you, but you say, hey, honey, here's what's going on. We've missed this. I didn't pay that. I got behind over here. I shouldn't have bought this. Here's where we're at. Where can we save? You are going to be, that's probably going to be one of the hardest conversations you have to have. But I promise you, at the end of that conversation, you're going to be, you're going to be moving in the right direction. You're going to feel better.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Jocko Willink?

  So do you think when you look back, like all the writing, I mean, you send out an amazing news newsletter all the time, the writing that you've done, the, the talks that you've given, like how much do you think that has helped you move through and process losing Mark?

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure that's helped me, you know, in great ways process through that. I didn't start in the beginning to do that. If you'd have told me I'd be speaking in front of people, I'd be like, oh no, there's no way in heck that I'm ever doing that. I had a preschool and kindergarten for 15 years. We did a, you know, cute little kiddos, you know, their Christmas program and a kindergarten graduation. And I literally, two weeks before, my kids knew, oh my gosh, mom's going to start stressing, freaking out because she knows this thing's coming. I would hold the microphone with both hands and it still would be bouncing like that. I was so terrified to speak in front of people. But, um, I heard of an, an organization that was, it was back in 2006.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  There was so much, you know, anti-war protests from Code Pink and the Wackadoodles. That's when they spray painted anti-war stuff on the Capitol steps. And Nancy Pelosi's like, nope, don't arrest them. And I'm like, what do you mean, don't arrest them? If I went up there and started spray painting Mark Lee and he's a hero and mighty warrior, you know, I would be arrested in a heartbeat, as I should be. I'm destroying public property. But it just, in the midst of the grief, it just angered me. I'm like, oh no, you are not attacking my troops. This is not happening. And so I saw they were doing a cross-country, you know, tour to support the troops. And I had to be in DC for something related to Mark. I don't remember what it was, but I was flying back home.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  So they'd started in California and so I joined them in Tucson. But when they ended, then I think it was close to Mark's birthday on the one-year anniversary and I wanted to be back in San Diego. So I just got a rental car and started following them. I'm like, I can wave my flag and, you know, cheer for our troops better than anybody else could. And when I got there, I had communicated with, it was Move America Forward and the Tea Party Expresses, who it later became, but, um, I'd communicated with them ahead of time. So they knew I was going to be joining them, you know, just to drive behind them and, you know, cheer our troops on. And when I got there, they said, we've got the mother of, you know, fallen Navy SEAL Mark Lee here. She's going to come up and speak. And I'm like, whoa, what?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  And I went up and of course, I didn't know, or I, I may have known, but it didn't stick with my brain, all of Mark's story at that point. So I don't even know what I got up and said that day. But, um,

• 1:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Just full blackout.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  And I got done and they're like, that's amazing. Would you speak at every one of our rallies, you know, when you follow us? I'm like, I, I guess, I don't know. But, um, that's one of the things I have learned. When God calls you to do something, you may not have the skills or talents to do that, but he will give you what you need to do that. And he sure did, you know? And, and as I would get up there each time, I'd think of Mark running into the line of fire for his final actions, you know? And I'm like, seriously? I'm going to be afraid of speaking to people when, you know, he gave his life fighting for us? And, um, I, so it wasn't anything I planned or I'd read a book that said, oh, this is, you know, this will help you processing through grief.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  And, um, now I've always enjoyed writing. That was always something, you know, that I enjoyed doing. But, um, so then I, you know, would write different things. But I think definitely that for whatever you're going through, that helps. And, and maybe you don't publish it, maybe you don't speak publicly.

• 1:07:05Jocko Willink?

  In fact, chances are you aren't going to publish it.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  Right, but write it out and, and you, you never know, you know, maybe that is something that, but, um, the impact that I, you know, hear back from so many people, uh, we just had, um, a couple staying at the Heroes Hope Home over the weekend. And her son is, um, not a Gold Star family, but, um, her son's getting ready to join the, the Air Force. And she goes, I've watched you for years. And I was terrified before to have my kid go in the military. But now I've seen, you know, you've given me that, that hope and encouragement that even if, you know, the worst happened,

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  I'm good, you know? I've watched you walk through this, you know? And again, not that I've ever done anything purposely thinking, okay, well, I'm going to set the example here, but, or do that for that reason. But we just don't ever know how our lives are going to impact somebody that's watching what we're doing. But, um, you know, I love sharing the hope and encouragement, you know? And that's my spiritual gift is I'm an encourager. So to be able to, you know, be able to help others and encourage them in whatever they're going through, you know, whether it's, you know, by speaking or writing or just living life, you know? That's, that's how God's equipped me and I love doing that. But I think that's something that people should do when you're processing through stuff is writing.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  I think that also helps you sort through, you know, how are we going to solve this?

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  No doubt.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  You know, and, and you can, you know, write something and then you reread it and you're like, oh, wait, here's another thought, here's another idea, you know? Could I try this? Could I do this? How about that? You know, so I would encourage people do that, even if you say you're not a writer.

• 1:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't matter.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  You know, nobody's going to inspect it, nobody, yeah.

• 1:08:51Jocko Willink?

  You'll get better. Yeah, writing and, uh, if you can't write, I mean, just, just talk to your, talk to your buddy about it. You know what I mean? Just, just open up a little bit, get it out.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Like you said, that's what therapy is anyway. Lots of people pay big bucks for you to go talk to somebody and they just listen to you.

• 1:09:08Jocko Willink?

  Just start invoicing your friends when you get done with the conversation. I should do that for Echo Charles. Cause you know, you, you, you may not know this, but when we show up here, usually if we don't have a guest, then Echo will talk to me for between one and 1.5 hours about random stuff.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 1:09:26Jocko Willink?

  He, oh yeah, he's got things, he's got things, he's got, he's got opinions. He's got to talk to me about stuff. He's got to fill me in on stuff. So I'm going to start sending you an invoice for therapy.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  Um, one of the things that we mentioned really, uh, we kind of brushed over a little bit was TBI and PTS. And one of the biggest things and most impactful things at America's Mighty is the Helping Heroes Heal Program. And this is a whole slew of different protocols with hyperbaric oxygen therapy, HBOT, supplement therapy, restorative retreats, so getting people out of these stressful situations.

• 1:10:11Jocko Willink?

  Talk to me a little bit about how you've discovered that and what you see the benefits and I'll share some. I mean, I've seen absolute life-changing, life-saving, um, situations where people have completely turned around after going through this program. Where did you first hear about it?

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  So we were the first military charity, uh, I want to say it's 14 years ago now to start, um, reading about the research. The gal that was my, um, executive director at the time had, um, read quite a bit on it and shared it. And so we started really digging into it. I'm like, okay, well, this is kind of an alternative therapy, but let's, let's dig into it and see what we found. And so we started doing more research and, you know, got connected with some people who'd done some of the research studies, uh, read a book by Dr. Hartz called The Oxygen Revolution, and it very much made sense to me. And so I said, okay, let's, let's test it out and let's send a couple of guys to do that.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Um, again, that was back when our budget wasn't huge. So, you know, we just had, I think that first year, three guys go through the program, which now we have, you know, easily three guys a month or gals. I say guys kind of generically. And by the way, we do all branches of the military. I know that, you know, we're really heavy in the SEAL community just because that's my family, but we do all branches of the military.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, you also have Marines and armies in your family as well, so.

• 1:11:32Speaker 01

  I do. My oldest son served in the Marines. Um, my, uh, he was in Okinawa the whole time, met his wife there. When, uh, he went over, I'm like, oh, honey, don't fall in love over there. I'll never get to see you. I'll never get to see my grandkids. And he's like, mom, I'm not even attracted to the Asian woman. I'm like, okay, awesome. We're good.

• 1:11:49Jocko Willink?

  How long that lasted?

• 1:11:50Speaker 01

  He was there five years. And so you remember the country song, the girls get prettier at closing time? I'm like, so was it like that? But she's amazing. They live a mile from me, um, and very close to those five grandkids that are there, but what a blessing they are. And then my son-in-law, Christopher, yes, they're both Chris's, um, he served in Iraq. He was there when we first went over. And then my brother served in the air force. I think he did like 13 deployments, you know, their deployments are a little bit shorter. And then Mark's best buddy was in the Coast Guard, so.

• 1:12:19Jocko Willink?

  All branches covered.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  And of course now they added the Space Force, so we don't have anybody in Space Force, but Johnny Kim, you know.

• 1:12:24Jocko Willink?

  Johnny Kim's kind of, he's gotta be close.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, you know, granted, he's still part of the Navy and it was NASA and it's a different program. I do understand that, but yeah. But very proud of, you know, all branches of our military and all those who've served and, and never take for granted the freedoms that I get to enjoy every single day because of all those who've served. But as we started, you know, learning the stories and talking, you know, and hearing all this stuff. And I'd say, so when's the last time, you know, you had eight hours of sleep and you, I don't know, 10 years ago? I'm like, what? And I said, what's a normal night's sleep? Uh, three or four hours? Tell you what, Jocko, if I'd had three or four hours of sleep last night, we would have already had 20 times where I've been like, huh? What, what were we talking about? What was I saying?

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  And, um, sleep is so important to our healing process. Of course, I never thought I would know as much about the brain as I do now and that I've learned. But, uh, we got, uh, connected with a facility down in Texas and started doing spec scans before and after of their brains before they went through treatment. And you see some of that. I mean, you hear the symptoms and the changes in the veterans as they go through the program. But when we saw those on the, you know, spec scans, black and white, some of them, it was so bad, it looked like there was a hole in their brain. And I'm like, how are they even functioning at all? And, and so, you know, we, over and over, that'd just be reinforced and seeing another one healed and another one healed.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  And a lot of them were suicidal and September is, you know, National Suicide Awareness Month. And, um, unfortunately, my husband, second husband committed suicide, so we've lived through that. But, um, so something else that we were really passionate about, um, getting them that healing. And there's so much out there that's just masking the symptoms. And I get why you guys want to try anything and everything to get rid of the pain and self-medicating with alcohol or illegal drugs or abusing your prescription drugs, but it's not healing you. It's just masking the symptoms. And I think over and over, you go through trying another therapy and it fails and another therapy and it fails. And then pretty soon you get so hopeless and that's why you get to that place where you feel like

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  the only relief you're going to get is taking your life. And that's not a choice. I mean, that's a choice to make that, but that's not the right choice, you know? That is something that's a permanent solution to something that we've found we can get you healing for. The frontal lobe of your brain is what controls so much. Um, that's the major blast wave exposure, whether it's from IEDs or breaching or firing your firearms over and over and over. And it's just like, uh, the shaking baby syndrome. Your brain is not designed for your brain to hit your skull over and over. And that's what happens. And during that blast wave exposure, you have no oxygen that's coming to your brain. And so the more times you do that, then the more that your brain starts to die off.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  And so as we saw that healing take place for our veterans over and over and, um, hear the stories of those that literally they had the gun laying on the table, ready to take their life. And as we, you know, spoke with them and encouraged them and, um, enrolled them in the program and then saw, you know, that healing, several of them, some, you know, some of our task unit bruiser boys that life-saving, not just changing, literally lives that wouldn't be here today. And, you know, I remember the first, um, veteran that told me that when I'd called before I had a program director and, um, Callie Mayoral, who was task unit bruiser, is our program director. But I would always call and follow up and say, okay, how's your sleep?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  How's the memory? How's the emotions? Whether it was the raging emotions or no emotions, you know, that's that frontal lobe of the brain again. And he went through the things, telling me all the changes that had happened. And he said, oh, you saved my life. And I said, well, you were willing to give your life for me. Are you kidding? This is no brainer for me to be able to help you. And he says, no, stop. And I was like, ro, ro, made a Navy SEAL man, it's probably not going to end well. And he said, I literally wouldn't be alive today if it wasn't for you and your foundation and the programs you provided. Hugh saved my life. And when he said that so strong, um, I thought of Mark

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  running in the line of fire to save his teammates' lives. I'm like, oh my gosh, that kid is still, still saving his teammates' lives. And, um, to be a piece, even if it's only one life that was saved, one life that was healed. You know, most people don't have that blessing to be involved in that. And we've seen that over and over. Uh, we've worked on legislation, you know, for the past five or six years, trying to get that approved. Uh, we're still currently working on that, trying to get that changed.

• 1:17:22Jocko Willink?

  We haven't made progress yet on that?

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  No, they have made, um, pilot studies. And this is, oh, probably about 10 years ago, they approved legislation to do a pilot study. And in that pilot study, you had to have, um, two therapies that you'd gone to the VA for that had failed. And then they were supposed to refer you for hyperbaric, for the 40 protocols. And, um, during, last time I checked, it's been probably three years or so since I've checked, only five veterans were ever referred. Well, the first failure, a lot of them go to the talk therapy or the exposure therapy and it hasn't worked. A lot of them have tried the medications and a lot of those have side effects that say may cause suicidal tendency. We wonder why our suicide rate's so high?

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  So, um, you know, right there, there's two that they should be referring out. But part of the problem is they did a research study and Dr. Hartz had done 100 veterans. And you can't do a placebo. You can't put somebody in a chamber with no oxygen and somebody one with oxygen. Obviously we die with no oxygen, without oxygen. You can't put them in an unpressurized chamber versus a pressurized chamber because we can all tell. So when they got done, the research showed that they all had improved. And when, uh, those that were evaluating that at the top said, not everybody can improve. There's no way. It's in their head. They just go in there and they think they're better. And of course, my thought on that was, well, isn't our goal to get them better if they think they're better and they're better?

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  Even if that were the case, which it wasn't. But the placebo group was getting it at 1.3 ATA. So they weren't going as deep in the dive and then the other group was getting it at 1.5. So they were going a little bit deeper. So obviously the ones in the 1.5 were getting more intense healing, but they all benefited from it. And the gentleman that wrote, did all the research, they would not let him write the summary. They hired someone else to do that. And I've talked to the gentleman and they said, well, it doesn't really work. And so they're basing it all on this old research project that over and over, they're saying it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And it's like, oh, there's been more that's been done since then. So, and I think that could be the pharmaceutical companies that, you know, don't want to see this.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  We had one of our veterans who, when he came to us, was on 53 prescription drugs at the same time.

• 1:19:42Speaker 01

  That should be malpractice. And what's happening is, you know, they're got, have an opioid addiction and the opioids cause you to clog up. So now you gotta give something to release that. And then they can't sleep, so they give you some sleep. In the morning, you can't wake up, so they give you speed to, you know, and it's just this vicious cycle of you're just medicating the symptoms from the medication that you're getting. After he went through our program, he was on three prescription drugs.

• 1:20:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, um, that frontal lobe and all these, you know, concussive blows that it takes in your career and talking to people that have watched their husbands, you know, uh, we, we had Sarah Wilkinson on this podcast, her husband Chad was a SEAL that, uh, killed himself. And she, but just talking to her, like, she was just like, it was a different guy than the guy that I married. The, this is the guy that I married and this guy at the end of his life was not the same person. And, you know, and they had a good life. I mean, they were great people. I mean, she's a great, amazing woman. They had amazing kids, like,

• 1:20:53Jocko Willink?

  you know, they were into CrossFit, like they were just really cool. It wasn't like some, you know, train wreck of a marriage or any, it was like a really nice couple with a great relationship. And, you know, you're in the SEAL teams, you're in the Marine Corps, you're in combat, you're, you're just, you're just, you're just taking blows, like whether it's, whether it's firing your weapon, firing a 50 cal, firing, uh, Carl Gustavs, doing breaches, crashing rooms, like you, you, you hit rooms in the crash, like if someone throws a crash in a room and you're in there, you just, you just eat it. Like that's just what you do. And that can happen on a regular basis. When you're, and when you're in training,

• 1:21:36Jocko Willink?

  you're in the training cell. So a training detachment, like, oh, you're in the catwalk, that thing's blowing up. Like you're, you're, you're gonna feel it. And by the way, you're gonna see the next platoon do it. You're gonna see the next platoon do it and they're gonna do it over and over again. And you're probably seeing, you know, five times as much as the platoon guys are, cause you're either in the rafters or in the room when it's happening. And then you're watching the breach get set up, you know, you're the one that's controlling, everything is just going boom, boom, boom, boom. And to think that, and the other really important thing I think here is that different people respond differently to, to these, to these blasts. And there's people that, I mean, I always bring up the example of Muhammad Ali and George Foreman, right? George Foreman and Muhammad

• 1:22:20Jocko Willink?

  Ali were big heavyweight bruisers and they punched hard and they took a lot of hits in their career. And George Foreman was like, good to go.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:29Jocko Willink?

  Through his whole life, you know, he was selling us grills and whatnot. And, you know, we all saw what happened to Muhammad Ali. They both had very similar styles and very similar, um, lives.

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Jocko Willink?

  And yet one of them was okay, one of them was not. And there's a, there's a bunch of boxers that you can, you can look at that are on both sides of that fence of, you know, really, really messed up or pretty much normal. And a lot of them have very, very similar careers. So it's the same thing that happens with military people. You know, some people just, they have a, they, they just don't have a propensity for that damage to happen. And some people have more of a propensity for that damage to happen. And that's just the way it is. Kind of like, I'm not as fast of a runner as Mark is. You know what I mean? Like Mark can run faster than me. Okay, cool. Like, that's the way it is. Um, you know, everyone's got their little advantages and disadvantages. Some people are more flexible, some people are less flexible, some people have more fast twitch muscle, some people

• 1:23:25Jocko Willink?

  have more slow twitch muscle. We've all got our little individual physiological differences. And one of those differences, some people, those blasts really impact their brain in a super negative way. And some people, it's less. And so to think that, you know, you're just gonna be able to give blanket cures to people is also crazy. And I, I think that this H-Bot thing, to me, it should be part of the escalation of treatment, right? Where, you know, the first thing, talk therapy, and that really helps some people. I've, I know people that that has really helped them out. They, they started, you know, when the SEAL teams opened up that kind of therapy thing, like I knew guys that went to it and they were like, oh yeah, I'll never stop going to that. Okay, great. That's, that's

• 1:24:09Jocko Willink?

  awesome. And then after that, well, I guess there's drugs that you can try or something like that. But I think even before the drugs, why not try something like H-Bot where it's like, let's see where this goes first.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  So one of the things that IDF does, so the Israeli Defense Force, all of their veterans, when they've been exposed to blast wave exposure, they come back and go in the chamber. And they are not having the issues that we're having with the BTS and TBI. So, um, we tried working with the command for a while to make that protocol. We even offered to send chambers to the combat zone, um, to be able to, as soon as they came back from mission, you just go in there. And then I think that also eliminates the having to raise my hand and say, I need help. Because they've all gone through there.

• 1:24:50Jocko Willink?

  This is what you're doing.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Yes. And it would just make such a difference, such a difference. But, um, we've had over 600 veterans that have gone through a year-long program. That does also include the hormone and supplement therapy. And I love that, um, Secretary Higseth, you know, has, um, implemented the testosterone. I don't know to what level, you know, that has happened. But we've seen amazing, you know, results even with those things, getting the body back to where God designed our body to be, you know, producing that, the stress, you know, your cortisol shoots off the charts, your testosterone is, you know, down to that of a, you know, 80-year-old man sometimes. But, and we do that with Kevin Lase, who was Mark's teammate, who was the medic, that actually was with Mark.

• 1:25:34Jocko Willink?

  Dobber.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  When he died, yeah. And he got out and started, uh, actually went to a medical school and became a physician's assistant. And then he partners with Dr. Lemay, uh, down in Pensacola. Uh, he has tried out performance medicine. So we work with him to do that. Uh, you mentioned the retreats, we've got a, um, uh, facility out in East Texas where we've done retreats for 15 years. Sometimes it's for Gold Star families. Most recently, the last three years, it's been for our Helping Heroes Heal Program. It's beautiful facility, Thousand Acre Ranch, it's owned by Fellowship Church, which is a big mega church down there. It's where they do their youth camp. So, um, it's, you know, 350, you know, kids can go there and bunkhouse type sleeping arrangement, but it's amazing facility. And so to bring

• 1:26:17Speaker 01

  those families together and there's no agenda, you know, we don't do counseling, we don't, you know, have sessions for them all the time. It's just recreational. There's, uh, kayaking, canoeing, paddle boarding. One time I said waterboarding, like, yeah, uh, we won't waterboard you, but bring the terrorists. I got no problem waterboarding. But, um, horseback riding, kayaking, high ropes course, I mean, it's just phenomenal. Three swimming pools and lazy river and, and inflatable in the lake that would put down any, you know, inflatable you've ever seen. But, um, just to let them be with other families who've gone through what they've been through, you know, just let those kids connect. Like you said, you know, families lots of time don't understand. And, um, we're currently looking for, we've,

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  um, got about 1.5 million set aside for purchasing our own retreat facility where we will have chambers there. Um, they can get their blood draws and all that done in one place. So they don't have to, you know, do this on telemed and do this. And we'll still use, you know, Kevin for the telemed, but they won't have to go down to the local lab and have the draws done because the hormone supplement therapy is also personalized to what they need. I know sometimes, you know, other foundations will have a protocol and here's your vitamin B and your vitamin D and here's this, here's your package. But we personalize it to exactly what it is your own body needs. And, uh, just, it's, it's been amazing to see the life change that happens. But, um, a lot of our veterans, we

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  try to partner them with a facility that's an approved facility near where they live. Uh, it's 40 consecutive treatments to start. We have approved up to 60 because they're finding now with TBI that 40 is just kind of getting the edge of the TBI. And so we've approved up to 60, we'll evaluate it at the 40 mark point with their clinic and doctors they're working with. But a lot of them can't commit, you know, some of them are still contracting, you know, so they're, they're only home for a month. So if we had our own facility, we could do two dives a day, knock everything out in a month. They can come stay, you know, it'll be up in the, you know, mountains where they can hunt and fish in between, you know, getting their, um, dives during the day. Uh, we're gonna have accommodations

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  for the families. So a lot of them don't want to leave the family behind. They can bring the family with them. Sometimes it's severe enough and the home life is bad enough that they're better just to, you know, be alone for that month and just focus on their healing. But then they've got the options to be able to do that. And so, uh, we've started looking, another one of Mark's teammates, Jake Kindbaum, is a realtor who recently moved to Arizona. So Jake and I have been looking at, at property and I, I found one that was perfect. It was a Boy Scout camp before, but it's at a $7 million budget. So if we've got any listeners, you know, that can write a couple million dollars checks and help us out here, that'd be great. But, um, it, the, the stables in there are approved

• 1:29:12Speaker 01

  for Kentucky Derby horse. But it's just, it's perfect. It's got several houses, you know, it's got place where you can put the chambers.

• 1:29:20Jocko Willink?

  How many acres is it?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I think that one was a hundred some acres and it's, it's has a canyon in there. It leads the, it does have water, but it's seasonal when we get the monsoons. But it goes down into Lake Pleasant and it's only 45 minutes from me, which is awesome that it's that close. But most of the other things are two or two and a half hours away. But, um, it looks like the grand, a mini Grand Canyon. It's just beautiful, you know, the spot that's in there. But, um, so, but anyway, we've looked at several others. Uh, we've really fortunate, we've got someone that's committed to, um, Deegan Construction has committed to donating all the concrete for the project. SSLC Plumbing has offered all

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  the plumbing there. We've got, um, another gentleman that offered dumpsters for the facility, a soil testing. Um, we've got someone else that's donated all the mini blinds. So, you know, it's pretty cool to see, you know, that we're getting this close to making the project happen, but.

• 1:30:20Jocko Willink?

  So just need the land and hopefully some buildings are on it. And then how many people do you want to be able to, like, house in the, in it?

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  It, um, and again, it would depend on what we end up finding. If we've just got a mono chamber, then probably we would have, um, four families at a time that would come. We've got a multi-place chamber, then we could have 16 families up there at a time. So.

• 1:30:44Jocko Willink?

  How long does a dive take?

• 1:30:46Speaker 01

  Um, a dive is normally about an hour and a half. We do hour at depth, but it takes about 15 minutes to get down to depth and then 15 minutes to come back up. And you don't move, you're in this chamber. But it's consistent to diving, you know.

• 1:31:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's called, Echo Charles, it's called a dive, but it's, you're sitting in a drive, probably watching an iPad movie or something like that.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:07Jocko Willink?

  Generally speaking.

• 1:31:09Jocko Willink?

  Um, when that you also do not just restorative retreats for the guys that are going through the program, but also for Gold Star families. And you have a couple of locations that you use for that. What are those all about?

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  We do. So, um, Alaso Ranch, we, when we started out, it was just Gold Star families there that we did. We have done some that were combined with half of our helping heroes yellow and half Gold Star families. Uh, we've also partnered with Gary Sinise Foundation. So we do three retreats a year with them. Uh, those are, uh, right now currently they're just for parents. Uh, Gary has an amazing foundation that has done so much for our veterans, but he, uh, took over the Snowball Express, which takes kids to did, did it in the beginning at Disneyland. Now they go to Disney World. And I think they have almost 2,000 kids that they take in their, their chaperones, which, you know, typically will be the, the spouse

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  that, you know, lost their loved one. Uh, he lost his son, unfortunately, a little over two years ago, I think, um, to a very serious cancer called CroDorma. And at that point, obviously losing your kid, now you relate more to the, to the parents. And so he said, we really want to start focusing on, you know, supporting those parents, reach out to Mama Lee. So I've known Gary for almost 19 years, uh, met him when, um, Elliot Miller, you know, was wounded and was visiting Elliot here at Balboa. And he's like, come down, there's some guy coming doing a concert, come down, we're going to meet him. I'm like, no, no, Elliot, this is your thing. He goes, no, I don't want to go alone. I'm like, oh, all

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  right. I'm going with you. And, um, you know, he had done, uh, obviously, um, Lieutenant Dan and in the, the movie Forrest Gump. And so people know him from that. I don't think he'd started the CSI series at that point.

• 1:33:07Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I don't think so, no.

• 1:33:08Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 1:33:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that definitely came after. Cause Forrest Gump was a pretty long ago movie.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, um, I met him and we just kind of stayed in touch and done lots of things together. And he'd be visiting San Diego on vacation and he'd send me a picture of himself at Mark's grave. And I'm like, are you kidding me? You're on vacation? And he goes, no, this is who I am all the time. But I don't know if he said that, but you know, I realized that was the case. But, so we take, um, we do one that's Gold Star Moms and we do one that's Gold Star Dads. And then, uh, in a couple of weeks, um, I'll be back doing one for, for the couples. And, um, it's, it's a great, great time to do that. We just, um, this past weekend went out to North Creek Ranch in Nebraska and we're going to start doing, um, one or two there a year out at their, uh, hunting lodge,

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  you know, and bringing, uh, Gold Star, you know, family members in for that too. So.

• 1:34:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I was just out at the Georgia Military College in Georgia, obviously. And I was out there for September 11th and I was talking to the, the staff and students there. And actually there's two graduates of the Georgia Military College High School, um, whose dad, Alex French was, was killed in 2009. And he had talked to his wife about if they wanting his kids to go to the Georgia Military College High School. And so the two kids, Alex and Alexis, I met them, but, uh, just a real honor to, to meet with them and see how, you know, the Georgia Military College had them go into school and, you know, they lost their

• 1:34:45Jocko Willink?

  dad, you know, their mom's an awesome woman. And just the trajectory that it just helps get people on the right track and being around supportive people. You know, I, I think it's very easy to not recognize the amazing amount of impact that you personally can have on someone else's life. And, you know, people reached out to try and, you know, get their scholarship to that college and the college helped out. So you have these kids that are growing up in a, in a great way with a great future. And, you know, who knows how many people helped make that happen. I mean, clearly, obviously their, their dad would be incredibly proud of them, but, you know, and he set them on this path. But, you

• 1:35:27Jocko Willink?

  know, every chance that you get to try and, you know, lend someone help, it, it may not seem like it's that big of a deal, right? It, it might seem like the smallest thing that you're doing. Maybe it's just something you don't even really think about. You think it's not, it's no big deal, but man, it can have such a huge impact on, on other people. And, you know, what might not be a big deal to you personally, might be a huge deal to someone that's going through, you know, a challenging time. And that's another thing I was going to say about the random acts of kindness is like, the, you know, that just might be enough light in someone's world to go, you know what? It's not all bad. You know, there's, there's people out there. This person that I've never seen before, never met before, just came up and helped me out.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  And man, you know, maybe this isn't, maybe I'm not, maybe the world isn't as dark as it seems right now. And that's definitely a very powerful, a very powerful thing.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  And Mark talks about that when he's talking about the random acts of kindness. And, and I think about that, you know, if you're just found out, you know, you, a loved one's got cancer, or you've just been in a big fight with your spouse, or your kids, or, you know, and you stopped to get coffee on the way to work and you get up there and you're like, somebody already paid for your coffee. And you're like, what? I mean, just think how that little thing would change your whole mindset for the day where you're like, you know? And it's like something so little and Mark saw that, you know, and he said, or opening the door or helping someone with their groceries in their car. It doesn't even have to cost anything. You know, you think about, even just if you're walking along

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  somewhere and somebody smiles at you, just how much that simple thing changes, you know, your attitude and your mindset. And it's like, and so it's so simple things in life that we can make an impact no matter what we're going through, no matter what our financial status. You know, we can make a difference. You have to purpose, you have to choose to do that. But, um, you know, that that kid had so much wisdom and you think about that letter, he's in the middle of the combat zone when he's writing this letter. So it was just shortly after the 4th of July. It wasn't the, if you're reading this, I'm gone letter. It just happened to be the last written letter we got from Mark. And he sent it to

• 1:37:42Speaker 01

  about 13 people that were on that email thread when he sent it. And I homeschooled my kids. Um, and I got to the bottom of it. I'm like, wow, it's a powerful letter. Who wrote this? And not that Mark was dumb by any means, but I'd never seen that depth in writing and power. And, you know, it's like, whoa, for a 28 year old to have that much wisdom, you just sense how much his life was changed being in the combat zone. And, you know, he writes about so many things over there. Uh, you know, he talks about the hospital that you guys would, you know, take people into.

• 1:38:22Jocko Willink?

  Which they literally, cause I was thinking about this the other day. So as I've sort of started to graph out what happened on that deployment, you know, and when I had General McFarland on here and realizing how close all these operations, they seemed like they were weeks apart, but they would really be like, we'd do one and then there would be another one, then another one, and then, and that, that the fact that he wrote that just after the 4th of July, because that operation to, at the hospital took place on the 4th of July, because we, Task Unit Bruiser, celebrated the 4th of July on the 5th of July, when the guys got out of the field. And so we had, uh, we had procured

• 1:39:07Jocko Willink?

  steaks, really good steaks. I forget what the connection was. It was some other government agency, you know, somebody made a deal. And we were, I, I was back at, at camp and the guys were coming out of the field and we timed it like, okay, how long is it going to take to cook the steaks? They're going to get back, debrief, and then we want them to like be, we're going to, we're going to celebrate the 4th of July. And so that's when he came back, you know, that was the 5th of July, they came out of the field, we all ate steaks. And he probably wrote that, you know, note after having seen the, the terrible hospital, which had been run by, basically by Al Qaeda, until the Marine Corps went in there and took it over. We supported that operation and then started

• 1:39:48Jocko Willink?

  squaring it away. And eventually it was a, you know, a, a, a regular hospital. But yeah, it was disgusting.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what he says. Most people wouldn't be able to stand the smell or to even go in there, let alone get medical help there. And it's those things that we take for granted here, that we do have the blessing to live in America and the things we enjoy each and every day. And, um, you know, he ends that with, to my family and friends, do me a favor. Pass on the kindness, the love, the precious gift to human life. And we are one of America's toughest warriors, you know, that, you know, one of the most compassionate men, and so many of you guys are that way, you know, hard, tough warriors, but, you know, loving, you know, husbands and fathers and compassionate and caring and, um, it's just, it's, it's amazing. So, but yeah.

• 1:40:40Jocko Willink?

  As you look at America's mighty, one of the things, you know, when you drive up, um, from San Diego on the five north, you drive by, uh, you drive through Camp Pendleton, the Marine Corps base. And on the right-hand side, as you drive north, there's this massive, beautiful Marine Corps hospital up there. And I remember as they were building it, there were so many casualties that, that Balboa Naval Hospital was, you know, overflowing and they needed more space. And so the Marine Corps built this hospital up there. And I, I remember just thinking, man, this is so much agony is going to be in those, in that building of all these guys that are wounded. And every time I drive by there now, I look

• 1:41:24Jocko Willink?

  up at the, at the hospital, I think, you know, there's no wounded guys in there.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:41:30Jocko Willink?

  Like right now, right now, there's zero wounded guys in there. And I go, you know who's in there? I always think to myself, you know, I go, there's, there's, there's women giving birth to like young Marines, like baby Marines. That's what's going on there. And, you know, I, I, obviously the, the, the world is an unstable place. And, um, you know, there's, people get wounded, people get hurt in the military. That definitely happens. Even training people get killed. Obviously we got conflicts going on currently and you never know what's going to happen. But as you look at America's mighty right now, you know, 15 years ago. There was gonna be wounded and killed on a regular basis. And now it's like, we don't have that anymore.

• 1:42:14Jocko Willink?

  Have you thought about like, what, how would, how does America's mighty morph towards, you know, the current situation where we just have less of those guys? And look, we'll, we'll always have veterans that need help. We always will have veterans that are gonna transition into the civilian sector. They're gonna run into issues and problems and, you know, the military sets you up for a lot of things. It doesn't necessarily set it to, well, definitely, it doesn't set you up for financial success. It doesn't set you up how to handle when you got, you know, some health crisis with your kid and you're no longer in the military, like it doesn't, so there's obviously things that you'll always be able to help out with. But what do you think the focus is gonna become? If, God willing, we continue on a path where we don't have our military hospitals

• 1:42:57Jocko Willink?

  filled with wounded and our military cemeteries filling up with killed in action.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Right. And I think for us at America's Mighty Warriors, I think that, um, you know, we've seen, well, we saw at the Ramadi reunion. You know, 20 years later, guys still carrying the burden, still not getting the healing, still not asking for help. And we had so many of those guys that after you spoke and after I spoke, that were like, hmm, I need help. And so we're seeing that 20 years later, we're finally getting to a place where they're starting to ask for help. Um, so that need is still very much there of so many that, you know, have played that tough card. And, you know, somebody needs it worse than me or I'm okay. And they realize, I'm not okay and I can get help. But, um, you know, I think that we'll continue to develop the program.

• 1:43:48Speaker 01

  As we see that, we haven't seen any numbers drop, you know, from not having the veterans there to be able to help through our Helping Heroes SEAL program. But I think that's a mindset that we always need to have to develop, you know? Then what, what is that next program? I know, you know, Jocko, you serve on our board and we're working currently on the succession plan. You know, I'm 72, I'm not gonna be around forever. I have no plans.

• 1:44:11Jocko Willink?

  Which is weird, cause you still act like you're about 33.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I think you, oh, I think, maybe was that a compliment or not? But, um, you know, the, and I have no plans, you know, to retire. I love what I do, but I need to be wise, you know, and have that backup plan there. And so as we develop that, you know, we always wanna build that leadership that's strong, that continue that mission on. Obviously you and Leif are on the board for, you know, that heart that, you know, can carry it on. You know, maybe not quite as strong as me, as Mark's mom, but pretty doggone close. So, um, that heart is set there for that mission, but that we always continue to evaluate our programs. What's most effective, you know, is there a different need that we can reach out and help?

• 1:44:59Speaker 01

  So, you know, thanks for giving me that mindset to think, okay, we need to watch. But right now we have not seen numbers decline yet in our Helping Heroes SEAL program. And if you're listening, if you're a veteran who is struggling, please, please, reach out. You know, you don't have to live with those symptoms. You don't have to continue the sleepless nights or just three or four hours of sleep. You don't have to deal with the raging emotion, the damage that's caused in that frontal lobe of your brain. Not that you go through therapy and all of a sudden you never get angry again. But you're at a healthier place where you can deal with those emotions, where you can detach from the emotions. You can, you know, make a plan, you can look around, make a difference. And, um, there's hope.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  You know, that you can get that. So please, reach out. You've got people who understand you. Like I said, Cowie Mayerall was Task Unit Bruiser. Four years ago, he was in the darkest place that he could be. So, um, we're here, we're ready to help. Um, you know, if you can help with funding, whether it's, you know, making a monthly recurring donation of, you know, 25, 26, $5. We've got over 20,000 contacts. If each one of them signed up to give $5 a month on a recurring basis, that's almost a million dollars, which is half of our budget for the year. You know, something so simple, and I thought of that because we've got this one donor

• 1:46:26Speaker 01

  that for probably 15 years has given $5 a month, you know, on a recurring basis. And very faithfully, and when I thought about that, and I just kinda picture, he's got a name that's not, you know, a youthful name, you know, an older generation name, and I just picture that that's, you know, he's probably on a fixed income. And that's probably a big sacrifice for him to give that $5 a month, but on a faithful basis, you know? There's so many others that could give, you know, a different level, you know? We're, we're always looking for that support. But, um, if you're, you know, Gold Star family who's lost their loved one in combat or killed in a training accident, you know, please reach out. If you're a veteran, we can support you.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  You know, we would love to do that. And, um, you know, I think of, you talked about the hospitals just having babies right now. And, you know, I think back to when Mark was born at a very difficult time in our life. You know, I was a single mom already at that point, was 23, had a three-year-old, 18-month-old. When I found out after the divorce, I was pregnant with Mark. And, um, I remember after I had him, I was sure, I was sure I was having twin girls. They heard two heartbeats all the time. Two weeks before, you know, they did an ultrasound back then, they, you know, that was pretty costly and they didn't do those very often. And there's, there's only one. I'm like, what do you mean, there's only one? They didn't tell me it was a boy or girl. So I had him, I, again, I've got insurance, so I'm good for three days.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  Before I go into the life of raising these three little kids by myself, phew, give me three days. Well, the day after he's born, they came in and said, we need your bed, you need to go home, but you need to name the baby. And because I was sure I was having twin girls, I just had girl names picked out. And I'm like, okay, I gotta name the baby. I'm by myself. I don't have anybody to help make this decision. And on the tray table was my menu for the day. And it, it, he was born in March and it, the H was covered up on the menu and it just said Mark, M-A-R-C. And I'm like, oh, I like that. My name was Debbie. I swear there, you'd say Debbie and half the school would turn around. There were 10 of us that were cheerleaders and literally five of us were named Debbie.

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  But, um, I wanted my kids to have unique names, but not weird names, you know? And so I spelled Christopher, K-R-I-S-T-O-F-E-R. Um, Cheryl, you could either spell it C-H-E-R-Y-L or S-H-E-R-Y-L. It's not as weird as some of the names where you see La, L-A, and then the dash, and then an A for La Dash. It wasn't, you know, quite, quite that uncommon. But, um, so when I saw the Mark, I'm like, oh, I like that. And I had no idea what Mark went, what his name meant. But Mark means mighty warrior. And, you know, when I was looking at the name for the foundation, I didn't want it just to be mighty warrior about Mark

• 1:49:17Speaker 01

  because it's about every man and woman who's served and sacrificed and given so much. So for me, that's why, you know, I picked America's Mighty Warriors as the name of our foundation. But he used to, to, you know, say, oh, great, mom, you got my name off a menu? I'm like, yeah, Mark, that's how God communicated to me how your, you know, what, what was in store for you? And, you know, he definitely lived up to his name.

• 1:49:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's a really important point that you made, and you already made it, but I'm just gonna reiterate. You know, this isn't just for SEALs, this is for veterans. And one of the, one of the very moving things at the Task Unit Bruiser reunion was, uh, Miguel Santana showed up. And he was, you know, from the 137, he was a platoon commander. And he was, you know, it was his platoon that was, that extracted Mark, that, that inserted those guys on target. Um, and, you know, talking to him. And what's really crazy was there was a reporter that was embedded with him.

• 1:50:22Jocko Willink?

  And as a matter of fact, I need to confirm this with Leif, because there was a, you know, Leif, sometimes they would wanna embed reporters with us and we would just be like, no. And I'm pretty sure that they were like, oh, can we embed with you guys? And Leif was like, yeah, no. And then they said, okay, well, who can we embed with? And they embedded him with Miguel. Um, but just talking to Miguel and, you know, for him to see you, it was so, so moving for him. You know, he, he just couldn't, um, say enough about how important it was to him and how much it meant to him. But my point in saying all this is, you know, I, I know SEALs get a lot of, obviously get, you know, so much attention.

• 1:51:04Jocko Willink?

  Those, those infantrymen that were out there more often than we were, all, they were out there, all they lived out there. You know, we, we lived back on, on Camp Ramadi, you know, in a little adjacent thing, um, that we ended up calling Camp Markley. That's where we lived. You know, we had air conditioning, we had, you know, meals. These guys down there in the various comps, the Marine Corps, 38 Marines down in downtown, in the government center in downtown Ramadi, it was just like freaking vicious down there. Their, their area of operations, like Leif went down and visited, like with his platoon, like they went down to the 38 to check in with those guys, see what we could support. Leif came back, it's like, we can't do any operations down there. Like, like their area of operations is too bad.

• 1:51:49Jocko Willink?

  Like we can't de-conflict enough where we could go and set up overwatch position, cause it's too bad. I was like, well, okay, Roger that. I think he went down there one other time to like, check it out, but there was just nothing, we just, it was too gnarly. And those guys lived there. And the guys in Camp Falcon, they lived in Camp Falcon. And so, you know, just, we know the, that, what the, the grunts, the burden that they carried was so heavy. And, you know, again, the SEALs get a lot of recognition, cause for whatever reason. Um, but, you know, talking to somebody like Miguel, like they were there. They, not only were they there, they were there more than we were. And they experienced loss and they, they had guys wounded, they had guys killed.

• 1:52:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, the, the casualty rate for these battalions, these conventional battalions was, was, was, was insane.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Well, and back in 2006, it was every day on the news. If it wasn't one, two, three, it, it was just Ramadi. You know, as you guys said, it was the hellhole of Iraq, the worst piece of real estate over there. And it was really crazy because, um, I got connected with Miguel, uh, probably about a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago. I was in Costco, returning something. And I looked over the counter and there was another guy there and I don't even remember what. Caught my eye. I think he just had that military look. And I walked up to him, tapped him on the shoulder. I said, did you serve in the military? And he goes, "Yeah, yeah. How'd you know?" And I said, "Oh, the haircut or the look or something."

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  And I said, "Yeah, my son was the first Navy SEAL killed in Iraq." He goes, "You're Mark Lee's mom?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course I'm Mark Lee's mom." And he got all teary eyed and emotional. And it was one of the guys that served with Miguel. It was Travis King. And he says, "I was there." And of course, then we just embraced it, you know, and got to know him pretty well. And he's like, "Oh, my gosh." He said, "You need to get in touch, you know, one of our guys is writing a book. He's been trying to find you. He wants to get in touch with you. You know, he's going to share Mark's story. He wants to make sure it's accurate." So then, you know, connected with Miguel. Then I got connected with one of the other guys that was the actual driver, who, you know, taken Mark to the morgue.

• 1:54:07Speaker 01

  And just one thing led to another where I actually, you know, was asked to write one of the forewords for the book for it. But again, Miguel just started our program. He's another one of those 20 years out, you know, that realized that the help that we have, you know, is there for him. So, and it's just, it's crazy how that happens. Like I said, in a Costco. Here he lives in, surprise, Arizona, where I do. And all because of Mark, you know? This kid that, you know, with the crazy sense of humor that he had and the, you know, the onreyness and, you know, I do, I just picture that

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  up in heaven, there's a planning space, you know? And I was telling this weekend when I went up with Sipnuski's, who are supporters of ours with SSLC Plumbing. And he took me up to the ranch, that's the hunting ranch. You know, and it was just crazy, all the different things. And you just feel like they're, you know, and I know God doesn't need Mark to do this, but I just picture they're like, "Okay, now if mom goes here and she meets this person." And of course, I met Sipnuski's at a muster, you know, back in 2022. Okay, she goes here and meets this one, and then this one goes there. And John was actually at the San Antonio muster. So I met him briefly, who owns the ranch up there.

• 1:55:35Speaker 01

  And then she'll meet this person, this person, you know, and it's just, it's just crazy, the paths that are crossed to be able to, you know, continue Mark's legacy, but to help us in our mission, you know, to continue to love all of our Gold Store families who've given the very best and to take care of our troops and, you know? Yeah, it's pretty cool.

• 1:55:57Jocko Willink?

  Well, you'll be continuing to get after it, I know. Is that anything else? Does that get us up to speed for now?

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  Well, we should probably mention The Way of the Warrior Kid movie.

• 1:56:07Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. The Way of the Warrior Kid movie comes out November 25th.

• 1:56:11Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:13Jocko Willink?

  So just a little clarification. The name of the character in the book and the movie is Mark. And in the movie, they actually say the full name, Mark Lee. And it's pretty obvious because the spelling is the M R, M A R C way of spelling it. That's what you can tell in the book. But when they asked me like, "Well, what's, you know, we need a last name for this scene." And I was like, "Well, it's Lee." And they were like, "Okay." But, you know, the, that's the name of the character, but it doesn't really reflect Mark because the kid in the beginning of the book is not exactly like, in the book especially, he's not exactly a real stud, we'll say. And I remember you telling me the first, you're like, "Well, you know, Mark wasn't really like a wimpy kid." I go, "I know, it's just the name of the character." It's not the Mark Lee story, you know?

• 1:56:57Speaker 01

  Right, yes.

• 1:56:57Jocko Willink?

  But it is, you know, that's the name of the character so that, so that I get to say that. And anybody that ever reads that book or sees that movie is going to go, "I wonder where he came up with that name." And they're going to Google it and they're going to read Mark Lee's story. And there is a scene in the movie, spoiler alert? I, I won't spoiler alert it, but there is a scene in the movie where Mark Lee gets announced in a loud way. And it is, it is, you know, the first time I watched it, I could not maintain control of my emotions. The first time I saw that scene, I was like, "Yep, I'm gonna go ahead and be by myself for a minute now." But, you know, again, the reason is because I just wanted people to be able to,

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  you know, open up that book and at some point in their life, say, "Hey, I wonder, I wonder where you got this character name from?" "Oh, oh, Mark Lee. Okay." And they're gonna, they're gonna read Mark's real story.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:57:52Jocko Willink?

  So that's awesome. The movie comes out November 25th. And I am definitely looking forward to getting that out to the world. It's gonna, I've, I've seen it. And yeah, it's really a beautiful movie, incredibly well made, incredible story, incredible acting.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  And so in the book, for those that haven't read it, there's an Uncle Jake, who is a Navy SEAL who comes to help his sister, you know, instill some, you know, character qualities into Mark. And, you know, he's being bullied and he can't do even one pull up. So Uncle Jake is Jocko. Who's, who's playing you in the movie?

• 1:58:29Jocko Willink?

  So Chris Pratt plays Uncle Jake. And you know, this is something, we're having a little bit of fun with it right now. But I've said many times, Uncle Jake is definitely not me. In the fact that like, in the book, Uncle Jake is kind of a superhero. I mean, he's kind of perfect, right? He can just do everything perfect. And I, you know, I made an elevated kind of perfect Navy SEAL to be Uncle Jake in the book.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't going to make him a flawed character like myself, right? And but what's cool is that in the movie, they give Uncle Jake some more human characteristics. Like in the beginning, he doesn't really want to help Mark. He's like, "Hey, I gotta get back to work. Like, I don't have time for you." And so they gave, they gave him a little bit more human characteristics, makes it a little bit more realistic. But we are having some fun with, Chris Pratt and I are having some fun with like, who's Uncle Jake? You know, it's kind of like, oh, you know, he's kind of like, "Oh, you know, I'm Uncle Jake." You're not Uncle Jake. Like, I'm Uncle Jake. So we've, we've had some, some funny conversations around that. But yeah, and Chris is such a great guy.

• 1:59:37Jocko Willink?

  He really, he's just, he's just an incredible person. The first time I ever met him, it was like, you know, I was kind of thinking, "Oh, here we go. I'm going to meet some Hollywood guy." And man, what, he's just super nice, self-deprecating, funny, charismatic, magnetic, fun, and just kind of very normal, very normal and very chill and very cool. And I was, you know, when, when we first started looking for the actor, I didn't think he was going to want to do it because it's like he played a Navy SEAL in Terminal List. He played a Navy SEAL in Zero Dark Thirty. I just thought he might be Navy sealed out, you know? But then he read the script.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  But it's Uncle Jake.

• 2:00:13Jocko Willink?

  It is, and it is a very different character. And it's very evident that it's a very different character. And that's one of the things, you know, I wanted, I wanted people to see military people as like, you know, good people that are out there with trying to do good stuff. And that's what it boils down to. So, yeah, I'm very excited for that November 25th global release on Apple, worldwide, in one moment. I wonder if like midnight, I'm going to be able to like press play. What do you think, Echo Charles? Is that the way it works?

• 2:00:43Speaker 02

  I, I don't know, but that would be pretty solid.

• 2:00:45Jocko Willink?

  That'd be pretty cool. And, you know, I'm going to try, we're going to try, I'm going to try and do showings at various places, you know? I would love to do a showing in San Diego and Virginia Beach. I would love to do that. I'm going to try. But I don't know. It's kind of all weird Hollywood stuff that I don't really comprehend. But yeah. November 25th, the world is going to hear someone pronounce and announce the name Mark Lee to the world. So I'm definitely excited about that.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  You know, and I think even when you say that, back to his letter, that first line of it says, "Some men seek glory. Others find it stumbling on them, not expecting it to find them." And Mark wasn't looking for glory. And just another way, you know, that it has found him and, you know, because not just how he gave his life, but who he was and how he lived his life. You know, and I say that, you know, so often that no matter what we're going through in life, we have that ability, you know, to make a choice, to do something positive, to make a difference, to overcome, you know? And he definitely was a great example for us how we do that. And

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Love the kid to pieces, blessed to be his mom and look forward to the day I get to see him again.

• 2:01:58Jocko Willink?

  Yes ma'am.

• 2:01:59Speaker 01

  You know, like I said, I'll give a hundred percent until God calls me home. I'm not saying I'm gonna do anything drastic, but yeah.

• 2:02:06Jocko Willink?

  Well, uh, thank you so much for joining us today. Of course, it's always uh, awesome to see you. I'm sorry that you had to get on your eighth plane trip in a week. Is that what it is?

• 2:02:13Speaker 01

  No, today will be my sixth flight in eight days, but it's just like, where am I? Was I just at this airport? But um, again, for your listeners, if you know, you can support us, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. If you need our, you know, we can help you, please reach out, you know, our email is [email protected].

• 2:02:34Jocko Willink?

  You're on Instagram too.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  On all the different social media.

• 2:02:37Jocko Willink?

  Americas Mighty. So that's where people can find you if they need you. Did you have any questions, Echo Charles?

• 2:02:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:02:42Jocko Willink?

  Oh, we got a question.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:02:45Speaker 02

  Speaking of glory, you know, the action figure?

• 2:02:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:02:48Speaker 02

  The Mark Lee action figure. Um, how does that work? Cause okay, so at the muster, kids don't, the muster is not really for kids, right? But every once in a while you'll get this little conglomeration of kids. And they all go nuts over this action figure, like for real nuts, like so they can enter to win it or something like this. And I've literally seen a kid almost break down, just because he didn't win.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:08Speaker 02

  So what's up with that? Like, how does that work?

• 2:03:10Jocko Willink?

  So what, what Echo is talking about right now is there is a like a, what is it about 12 inches tall? It's maybe like a one foot.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  It's a one-sixth replica of Mark.

• 2:03:19Jocko Willink?

  Of Mark.

• 2:03:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:20Jocko Willink?

  And it's really accurate um, in terms of his gear, his weapon, like everything is really, it's, it's pretty awesome. Yeah. How'd that come about?

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  The, so there's 50 pieces replica of his gear, like the little bible that you guys get in BUDs. You open it, there's actually scripture, not just little dots and marks. It's actually some real scripture on there. His Oakley sunglasses, the same style that he wore. Um, you know, so they say it's an action figure. I call it the Mark Lee doll because he'd be like, Mom, they didn't make a doll after me. But um, it's a way, you know, can pick back on it, but uh, and those um, right now, there's just a very limited number. So we only have them accessible through um, a raffle. If you attend muster, you can purchase raffle tickets there, but um, they are doing a remake on it. So they will, we will have that.

• 2:04:14Speaker 01

  Um, I don't have day, details when that will be out yet, but we will have those um, for sale as well.

• 2:04:18Jocko Willink?

  Is the same company making them?

• 2:04:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's it.

• 2:04:21Speaker 01

  It's Black Ops Toys is who makes it, but it's crazy. The detail, like when we pulled it um, out this last muster, actually this one, it was a kid that wanted to, but um, the detail was crazy, like the, the um, the triggers actually work on the, it's like, oh my gosh, this is unbelievable.

• 2:04:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:44Speaker 01

  The detail, and it looks a lot like Mark. We really worked to get, make sure the hair was curly enough and yeah. So.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  Looks good.

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  His, his helmet, you know, he wrote, the way he labeled his stuff was the M. And then the L then was the stick of the M that, that just went, it looks just like, you know, how he had marked his helmet and yeah.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  And that's only available at the muster.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yep. If you attend the muster, we got one coming up in Denver and I don't know, Jocko, there's still tickets left or we sold out?

• 2:05:14Jocko Willink?

  There are some tickets left right now. Yeah. If you want to come to the muster, you want to enter a raffle to win the Mark Lee doll. I have to call it an action figure. I'm not his mom. I gotta call it an action figure. I'll call it an action figure. Then you can come to the muster. Yeah. What's that? October? It's in Denver?

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  That's what it is? 16th and 17th, something like that? Good. Uh, yeah. So there you go. Action figure. Any other questions?

• 2:05:35Speaker 02

  Nope. That's it. My son says hi. He's excited to know that you're here today.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Yep. Awesome.

• 2:05:41Jocko Willink?

  Cool. Awesome. Mama Lee, anything else?

• 2:05:44Speaker 01

  I think we're good. I think we're good.

• 2:05:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, again, you know, like I said, thank you so much for coming and um, thanks for raising this incredible warrior. Thanks for sharing him with us. And thanks for carrying on his legacy and doing so much to keep his uh, spirit alive. And the fact that he is continuing to help and in some cases, literally save, continue to save his teammates and their lives and, and also helping so many other families and so many other people in need. So, thank you for all of that. And of course, thank you for being a uh, mom to the rest of your boys and tasking a bruiser.

• 2:06:26Speaker 01

  It's a blessing, most of the time. But I thank you guys for, you know, like I said, to have watched so many of you, you know, grow and um, get new careers and you, you guys impacting the world such a crazy way. And you know, the leadership that you teach to, you know, kids through the book and to adults and, you know, the experiences that you share and how you keep Mark's legacy alive. So.

• 2:06:50Jocko Willink?

  We wouldn't be here without him in any way, in any sense of the word. We would not be here without Mark.

• 2:06:55Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  All right. Thank you.

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  God bless.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  And with that, Mama Lee has left the building. Always awesome to see her. She's, I actually get to see her a decent amount.

• 2:07:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:07:09Jocko Willink?

  She comes through a lot of Echelon Front events. She speaks at some Echelon Front events. We always have donors that we do deals with to get them to come to Echelon Front events, support Americas Mighty Warriors. So AmericasMightyWarriors.com. Um, and you know, it's one of those things, it's like, you know, you, you, you try and describe what someone is like, but there's no, there's no way a human can accurately describe another human, like a hundred percent. You know what I mean?

• 2:07:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:07:44Jocko Willink?

  Like you can't, you can't just explain, imagine if you, your, your favorite song.

• 2:07:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:48Jocko Willink?

  And you're trying to explain what your favorite song was like, like, no, it was so good. It was, but you can't do the song justice. Well, obviously it's not just a song. It's not even just a movie. Cause even if you had to describe your favorite movie, you couldn't pull that off. It's even harder because now it's a whole imagery. And then if you took some experience that you went through, that you're trying to explain, can never do it justice. And then you're trying to explain a person like Mark, who is just like 12 dimension. You know what I mean? Just a 12 dimensional element, like beyond 3D, beyond 4D, there's just dimensions that you, you just can't explain.

• 2:08:31Jocko Willink?

  And to see what she's done, you know, to carry on his, his legacy is just awesome. So yeah. Always amazing to have her. Americas Mighty Warriors, what a great organization, helps out so many people. And we'll continue to do everything we can to promote that and get it out there and get people that need help, the help that they need. That's what we're doing.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  Mama Lee's like, she's the best. So even when you, you know, like that's just her name, right? Mama Lee. It's like Debbie Lee. Yeah. Mama Lee, we all just call her Mama Lee, but it's so appropriate. Like when you talk, she's kind of like, kind of all of our mom, even me, right? You know, I wasn't, I wasn't in the military. You know that about me. And she's kind of like my mom. And my son looks at her and is like, oh yeah, that's kind of like our, you know, our mom kind of a thing, you know? So it's so, cause she's like, I mean, you can tell even today, I mean, which is something we knew for years already, that you can tell even when she's talked like, just how much she like cares, just how she talks. And then I'm sure you guys know that, like, you know, 10 times more than just this episode.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  But oh yeah, and that's like literally like how she is. See what I'm saying? So yeah, it's only, this seems only appropriate, this whole outfit.

• 2:09:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the, everything that she's done is just in keeping with the whole, the whole thing, the whole, the whole thing. But anyways, if you can, support AmericasMightyWarriors.org. That's where you can find that uh, organization. And help, help Mama Lee help people. That's what we're doing. So uh, also if you're, if you're out there, working out, you're out there training, you're out there playing soccer, like Mark Lee, playing soccer, freaking good athlete. You know, people that are just good athletes, you're like, this guy's a good athlete. He's one of those people.

• 2:10:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Getting after it. Um, if you're getting after, if you're sprinting, if you're lifting, if you're, if you're getting gains with a Z, the different kind of gains, right?

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  Support that.

• 2:10:27Jocko Willink?

  Support that. If you're getting gains with a Z, you need, you need uh, fuel. We recommend Jocko Fuel. Check out JacoFuel.com. You get everything that you need. You can get protein, you can get energy, you can get endurance now. We got all kinds of supplementation for you.

• 2:10:43Speaker 02

  What's endurance?

• 2:10:44Jocko Willink?

  We got an endurance product out.

• 2:10:45Speaker 02

  What's it called?

• 2:10:47Jocko Willink?

  We called it endurance. Jocko Fuel Endurance. Yeah. So check that out. Um, of course, Ashley, the wizard is, formulating all this stuff out there. She's, you know, that's her, that's what she went to school for. And not, not only did she go to school for it, she's hyper into it.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, Ashley doesn't, Ashley will, if you ask her a question about something, you're gonna get the most legitimate answer that you could ever want. You may have to look things up. You may have to ask her to redefine some terms that she uses, cause you will not know them. But she just loves it. She's passionate about it. Obviously she trains really hard herself and she puts her heart and soul into, you know, putting together, these products and she works with other people if she needs any help. Um, you know, I've, I give sometimes direction of like, hey, we need a product like this. And she'll be like, okay, tell me what you want it to do. She's the person that makes a lot of this stuff happen.

• 2:11:46Jocko Willink?

  Um, so yeah, we got an endurance product out. We also have a bunch of different flavors now. You know, we got the pumpkin spice. That happens to be Mama Lee's favorite. This pumpkin spice, she just rolled out with a pumpkin spice, ready to drink protein drink. So we got a bunch of flavors of protein. We got the energy drink, the clean energy drink, which apparently is, it like became a thing, right? After our energy drink came out, other people started to make, what they were claiming was clean energy. But if you put artificial sweeteners in there, chemicals, you cannot make that claim. If you're putting 400 milligrams or 300 milligrams of caffeine in there for one drink.

• 2:12:33Jocko Willink?

  You know, I'm not sure you're gonna call that healthy. Right? So we, we set the standard with our energy drink. We set the standard with our protein. Uh, protein powder is freaking delicious. By the way, we got the little packets now. The little of, of all the different flavors.

• 2:12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:12:48Jocko Willink?

  So I just got in the mail because I ordered some, um, some of the fruity cereal powder. And because that's one thing, when you travel, you can't take the RTD with you.

• 2:12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's a little harder.

• 2:12:57Jocko Willink?

  But you roll in with the packet, you're all good. You get the fruity cereal, the peanut butter. Peanut butter chocolate. That's still, honestly, as much as I love mint.

• 2:13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:06Jocko Willink?

  The peanut butter chocolate's like so good. It's so good. So Jocko Fuel dot com. You get all the stuff that you need, all the supplementation that you need. Check it out. Jocko Fuel dot com. Also, you can get it in retailers all over the country. Stores all over the country, stores. And if they don't have it in the store that you shop at, just ask for it. Say, hey, we want some Jocko Fuel in here and we'll get it there. So Jocko Fuel dot com. Check it out. Also, originusa.com is where you can buy American made blue jeans, American made boots, American made sneakers coming your way. Sneakers, uh, tennis shoes, some people call them.

• 2:13:41Speaker 02

  Tennis shoes, yeah.

• 2:13:42Jocko Willink?

  What's the other word? Sneakers? Trainers. Those are probably the big three terms.

• 2:13:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:47Jocko Willink?

  In England, my wife, she calls them trainers. But tennis shoes is real popular in like the middle of the country.

• 2:13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:55Jocko Willink?

  I grew up in New England, sneakers all day. What'd you call them in Hawaii?

• 2:13:59Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:13:59Jocko Willink?

  You don't even know what you call them. You don't even know.

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember. I mean.

• 2:14:05Jocko Willink?

  You probably called them sneakers is my guess.

• 2:14:08Speaker 02

  Well, to be honest, I don't know that I wore tennis shoe sneakers. The tennis shoe sneaker scenario is very sparse, we'll say in Hawaii. I can name all the different words for slippers.

• 2:14:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:22Speaker 02

  Slippers, something you might call flip flops. Um, or bare feet.

• 2:14:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  See what I'm saying?

• 2:14:28Jocko Willink?

  There's no different words for bare feet though, is there?

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 2:14:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I used, uh, when, when I went to college, I studied English. And, uh, you know, you get into that kind of dialect, right? And they have cool maps. They would do maps of the way words were used. And I remember a map that had like the regions of America and what sneakers were called and what soda pop was called.

• 2:14:55Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:14:55Jocko Willink?

  Soda, pop. Some people call it a Coke.

• 2:14:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, Cokes.

• 2:14:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just get a Coke. Well, they don't mean a Coca-Cola. They mean, they mean that might, they might mean a seven up.

• 2:15:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:15:04Jocko Willink?

  They call it a Coke.

• 2:15:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of the guys I worked at with taught me that. He's like, are you gonna go, you know, go, can you give me a Coke or whatever? And they're like, he was like, just get a, a seven up though. It's like, what the, and he explained that whole thing. You call it Cokes. Yeah.

• 2:15:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. If, if I wouldn't have been like in the military, I would probably do, be doing a podcast about like the etymology of various words. But the funny thing is, we did a podcast about writing.

• 2:15:36Jocko Willink?

  So I think of the podcast was called writing. It was one of our numbered podcasts. It was a legit Jocko podcast number, whatever. And it was about writing. And I thought, man, when people get ahold of this, they're gonna really wanna get this information. But it wasn't like a big deal.

• 2:15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:50Jocko Willink?

  In fact, it was probably less listened to than a war podcast. People always like war more than, they like the, they like, they think that the, the sword is mightier the pet than the pen. When it comes to listening to cool stories, right? No one wants to hear me talk about the etymology of various words.

• 2:16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:08Jocko Willink?

  Although I'm still tempted to just go hard in the paint on some Shakespeare. You know, we did, we've only done, I think we've only done Henry the fifth on here.

• 2:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:17Jocko Willink?

  As far as.

• 2:16:18Speaker 02

  I feel like we did Shakespeare.

• 2:16:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I think, I think the only Shakespeare we've done is Henry the fifth. I don't think we've gone hard in the paint on any other Shakespeare. Breaking it down, word by word, because that's what you gotta do when it comes to Shakespeare.

• 2:16:32Jocko Willink?

  So you know what though? I do know this. We do train jujitsu. For jujitsu, you're gonna need some kind of gees. Now, some people call the gi a kimono.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:16:43Jocko Willink?

  Some call it a gi. Any other words I'm missing? Some people sarcastically call it pajamas.

• 2:16:49Speaker 02

  Right, pajamas.

• 2:16:50Jocko Willink?

  But you're gonna need a gi, might as well get, well, you should get, might as well, you should get an American made gi for your jujitsu. You should get American made rash guard for your jujitsu. You should get blue jeans that are made in America. You should get sneakers that are made in America or tennis shoes that are made in America or trainers that are made in America.

• 2:17:07Jocko Willink?

  My, my wife and I were out the other night and what, oh yeah. And you ever seen a, we were out for dinner with the kids. You ever seen when you, at a restaurant, when they take a lemon and they put like a, a little net around the lemon? And it's made to catch the seeds. So you can squeeze it on your fish or whatever. So my wife says, one of the people that was with us, one of the kids was with us, says, what's this little net for? And my wife says, oh, it's to catch the pips.

• 2:17:41Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then the kid goes, what's a pip? And she goes, oh, the stone. So she used two British words in a row. And I said, hey, no, that's neither one of those are American.

• 2:17:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:17:52Jocko Willink?

  So pips, stones, she meant seeds.

• 2:17:54Speaker 02

  Do they not say seeds?

• 2:17:56Jocko Willink?

  They say pips and they say stones. They don't say.

• 2:18:00Speaker 02

  Cool. There you go.

• 2:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I had to do, uh, had to interview someone from a different dialect of English when I was going to college. And I interviewed my wife and we had all these things to ask her, what do you call this? And what do you call that? And what do you call the colored, small colored sugary bits that you put on an ice cream cone? Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 2:18:20Speaker 02

  Sprinkles?

• 2:18:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You know what she called them? Hundreds and thousands.

• 2:18:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  You told me that.

• 2:18:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I've told you that before, but hundreds and thousands, like, that's what they called.

• 2:18:30Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 2:18:31Jocko Willink?

  Didn't know what sprinkles are. That's not a thing to them. So.

• 2:18:36Jocko Willink?

  So whether you need sneakers, trainers, or what do we, what's the other one?

• 2:18:41Speaker 02

  Tennis shoes.

• 2:18:41Jocko Willink?

  Tennis shoes. We got you covered. Originusa.com. Get American made goods. Don't get these, you know, it's so ridiculous. You go, you see these clothing companies, you know, you know, people start a clothing company? They're like, oh, I started a clothing company. No, you didn't start a clothing company. You just are printing. You're, you're, you're buying shirts from China or Pakistan and then you're printing stuff on them. That's not a clothing company.

• 2:19:04Speaker 02

  It's different, yeah.

• 2:19:05Jocko Willink?

  That's not a clothing company. Don't do that. Don't buy those people's stuff. Buy American made stuff. We have the, we own the factory. That's what we're doing. Support America. Go to originusa.com and get some.

• 2:19:18Speaker 02

  It's true. Also, don't forget about Jocko Store. Represent on the path, discipline, discipline. About that too, the whole deal. You understand? Discipline equals freedom. You wanna represent that? We got you. Got your shirts and hats and stuff on there. Good. We're representing that. Well, I'm telling you, we're representing that. Anyway, we got, uh, three versions of that one as well. Actually, four versions. Got a special version of that. Anyway, also Shirt Locker, new design every, every month. That, that's a subscription situation. You already know it. And if you don't, go to Jocko Store dot com, click on, uh, Shirt Locker. Check out the Shirt Locker, see what it's all about. Um, otherwise, yeah, just, you know, go on there, see what up. If you like something, get something.

• 2:20:02Jocko Willink?

  Check. Like something, get something. Books. Unheard Voices, The Fight For Ramadi, written by Miguel Santana. He's on the podcast. Pitbull. We were talking about a little bit today, but it's just a great book and it's so awesome to hear that, that grunt perspective. Um, of what it was like in Ramadi. So check that book out. Also, Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones. Also, Need to Lead by Dave Burke. And I've written a bunch of books, including the Warrior Kid books, which you heard a little bit about today. Movie coming. Get some of that. Also, we have a leadership consultancy. We teach these leadership principles that we learned on the battlefield. So you can apply them in your business, in your team, in your department. Go to echelonfront.com if you wanna get engaged with that. And then we also have online training for leadership

• 2:20:47Jocko Willink?

  at extremeownership.com. And then if you wanna connect with us, obviously, we have Mama Lee and she's on the interwebs. She's at Americas Mighty Warriors dot org. I kept calling it Americas Mighty today. That's because her Twitter and Instagram is at Americas Mighty. But for the website, it is America, Americas Mighty Warriors dot org. And then, so check that out. You know what it's about. Also, check out heroesandhorses.org. Also, check out Jimmy May's organization, beyondthebrotherhood.org.

• 2:21:23Jocko Willink?

  And then warriorsinneed.org. All a bunch of great organizations, but please check out Americas Mighty Warriors dot org. Um, if you wanna connect with us at all, you can check out Jocko dot com. And then on social media, I'm at Jocko Willink and Echo is at Echo Charles. It was better, it's better if you don't even check us out there because you're just gonna waste a bunch of time wasting your life. So stay away from it. Once again, thanks to Debbie Lee, Mama Lee, Mark's mom, for everything that you have sacrificed. Thank you for being there for us.

• 2:22:00Jocko Willink?

  Then, thank you for being there for us now. And thank you for being there for so many. And thank you for carrying on Mark's incredible legacy. And to all of our military around the world right now that are going into harm's way to protect freedom. Thank you all for your service and sacrifice. And thank you for the service and sacrifice of the families who wait at home and worry and take care of the home front. We thank you all for what you do for the country. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all, all other first responders. Thank for what you do to keep us safe.

• 2:22:41Jocko Willink?

  And also thanks to your families for what they do and what they sacrifice in supporting you. And everyone else out there, it has been 20 years since Mark was killed.

• 2:22:56Jocko Willink?

  And I have no idea what he would have done with his life.

• 2:23:00Jocko Willink?

  I have no idea what he would have done. He could have done anything. I can tell you this, without question, it would have been extraordinary. He was such an incredible force of good, so much so that his spirit has carried on.

• 2:23:15Jocko Willink?

  And he continues to be a force of good to this day. And I would say, if you can, try and find a little bit of that spirit in your own soul. Try and do some good. Try to help some others. Try to live an amazing life that is full of passion and joy and laughter and love.

• 2:23:38Jocko Willink?

  Like Mark.

• 2:23:41Jocko Willink?

  Life is short. So go live it. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko.