Is Imitation Vanilla Better Than The Real Thing?

If you do the cooking, should your partner do the cleaning? Are savory oats underrated? Are broccoli stems better than the florets? This week we’re taking your calls, tackling your food disputes, and hopefully bringing some peace and resolution to your homes.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  My whole extended family and I went to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina this past spring. And I gotta say, I came away feeling like, number one, this is a great family destination. Number two, this is a great place to come all year round. The mini golf alone is probably worth, it's like the mini golf capital of the country. They have the most incredible elaborate mini golf courses. They also have more than 80 championship, full-size golf courses, plus 60 miles of beautiful coastline, all-season sunshine. Of course, you can relax by the beach or the pool. There's also jet skiing, fishing charters, paddle boarding, and of course, food. Oh, man, did we eat well in Myrtle Beach. From fresh local seafood to craft burgers and craft beers to kebabs on the boardwalk. With more than 2,000 restaurants to choose from, from legendary no-frill seafood shacks

• 0:43Dan Pashman?

  to chef-driven dining, Myrtle Beach has it all. Plus, live entertainment at the beach, there's always something epic going on. So, summer may be winding down, but in Myrtle Beach, you're gonna find the coastal vacation of your dreams all year long. Start planning your ultimate beach vacation at visitmyrtlebeach.com. I grew up on Lando Lakes cheese. I still remember going to the supermarket deli counter with my mom and her ordering Lando Lakes American cheese. And now, Lando Lakes cheese and butter are a huge part of my home. There are so many easy weeknight recipes using Lando Lakes cheese and butter that bring delicious restaurant taste right to your table. From chicken parm to weeknight shrimp pad Thai, Lando Lakes has plenty of quick dishes that'll have the whole dinner table talking.

• 1:23Dan Pashman?

  Visit landolakes.com/reцепes/collection for easy weeknight dinners.

• 1:32Dan Pashman?

  Thanks for listening to The Sporkful. Be sure to tune in each week for new episodes on Amazon Music, or just ask Alexa, "Play the podcast The Sporkful" on Amazon Music.

• 1:43Dan Pashman?

  Well, Paula, I think of you as sort of being a person who's like ready with a hot take. Certainly on Instagram, you're someone who like doesn't hold back. You got opinions.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  The read on me is crazy. I just met you. What's going on?

• 2:02Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. And this week, we are taking your calls about your food-related disagreements and disputes with your loved ones. Hopefully bringing some peace and resolution to your homes. And we're answering your cooking questions and responding to your hottest food takes. And before we get into it, I want you to know that if you have a food feud with a family member or friend, or maybe a hot take to share, or a question you want to ask, I want to hear from you. Drop me a line at [email protected]. Now, I am but a humble food podcast host. I can't solve all your problems myself. I need some help here. So, joining me for this episode, first off, in Washington DC, we have Paula Valles,

• 2:46Dan Pashman?

  author of Bodega Bakes: Recipes for Sweets and Treats Inspired by My Corner Store. Paula's book was named for the New York Times 16 Best Cookbooks of 2024. Paula worked as a pastry chef at the famous dessert spot Milk Bar for many years. You may also know her from Instagram, where she is @smallorchids, and she is the chef-owner of DC's Bar Providencia. Hello, Paula.

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Bam, bam, bam, bam.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 3:11Dan Pashman?

  Great to have you with us. Our other special guest today is here in the studio with me in New York. You've heard him on The Sporkful before. It's James Park, AKA JamesyWorld on Instagram. Last year, he published Chili Crisp: 50+ Recipes to Satisfy Your Spicy, Crunchy, Garlic-y Cravings. We also collaborated on several extremely delicious recipes in my cookbook, Anything's Possible. Hello again, James. Hello, hello. I'm very excited to have both of you. I think that the two are going to complement each other very well as we sort of dole out advice and hot takes and all that. Because I feel like on Instagram, at least, you have, you know, sort of like complimentary personalities. I think of you, Paula, as being someone who has opinions and isn't afraid to share them.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I have ADD, so like, I have opinions because I can't stop thinking, you know? Yeah.

• 3:59Dan Pashman?

  James, I also love you on Instagram and you're sort of more warm and fuzzy vibes.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm always like making sure everyone is happy.

• 4:06Dan Pashman?

  All right, now before we turn to listeners, I want to stay with the two of you for just a minute because each of you brought a hot take. Now, Paula, I know you have a very hot take in bodega bakes in your cookbook, a hot take on vanilla. Let's hear it.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  So I believe that imitation vanilla is better than vanilla extract and I will die on that grave.

• 4:24Dan Pashman?

  Wow, the totally artificial, what's that called?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Uh, vanilla gin, I can't.

• 4:29Dan Pashman?

  Oh, oh, oh, vanillin or something like that, yeah.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. I'm very Spanish, so I was like, vani ying.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  And I'm like, wait a minute, that's not right.

• 4:39Dan Pashman?

  This feels like an almost sort of like pancake syrup versus maple syrup kind of debate.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I literally, I'm pretty sure there's gonna be some like avid bakers that are gonna listen to this and say, this lady is out of her mind, she's crazy, go F yourself. And I'm gonna be like, a booga booga booga, because I don't care.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Please defend yourself. Why do you like it? I want to understand your decision.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, for sure. For me, it's a, it's a budget thing. And also like, think about the applications that we normally use vanilla for. It's cake, it's chocolate based cookies, et cetera. And usually, right, if you have really strong flavors, i.e. espresso, peanut butter, chocolate, or even like things that are very delicate within their own selves, vanilla will be forgotten.

• 5:26Dan Pashman?

  You're gonna lose the flavor, is what you're saying.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:28Dan Pashman?

  All right.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I truly believe that unless if you're making like delicious milk based, you know, flans, panna cotta, et cetera, or things that the vanilla can be the star in, don't waste your money, use the vani ying.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Then why are you adding?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Because it's American style baking.

• 5:47Dan Pashman?

  And it's just become one of those canonical things that should be in everything you bake?

• 5:51Speaker 01

  And I respect vanilla. I respect vanilla a lot, right? Even just to harvest it, like to, let's say from Madagascar, if you get Madagascan vanilla, it takes nine months to become a pod, right? And then it takes nine more months to become an extract, right? So that's a lot of time to become something really delicious. It's not boring. It's one of the flavors that I believe needs to be championed and we use it as a maj pas, kind of add it and it doesn't matter with cinnamon, with this, with that. And you cannot tell the difference. Go make something with cinnamon and vanilla, but take out the vanilla, it'll still taste like what? Cinnamon.

• 6:28Dan Pashman?

  I think you make a strong case, Paula. So basically, what you're saying is, you know, use the really good stuff when it's a featured star ingredient in rare cases. But every other time, there's no point. I think, I think you make a strong case.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 6:42Dan Pashman?

  All right, James agrees. There you go. James, what's your hot take?

• 6:45Speaker 02

  Okay, my hot take is everyone should embrace savory oats.

• 6:50Dan Pashman?

  Okay, okay.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  I feel like oats is something that people still feel like they have to eat it vanilla or, you know, like sweet cinnamon.

• 7:01Dan Pashman?

  Literally or figuratively vanilla.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, oh my God, savory oats will change the game.

• 7:06Dan Pashman?

  Give me an example. Give me that savory oats recipe that you love.

• 7:09Speaker 02

  Okay, ooh, so one of my favorite savory oats recipe that's also in my chili crisp cookbook is that it has miso chili crisp kimchi. And like, I feel like oats is a same thing as like any type of grain. Think about rice or think about, I really like flavorful porridge. And sometimes it takes a while to cook the porridge. But like oats, it only take like five to eight minutes. And it absorbs all the liquid in a way. So you can really use any leftover soup. I make savory oats with leftover kimchi stew that I was talking about, chicken stew. And I just add all the flavoring that has like chicken powder, soy sauce, like oyster sauce. Like then it becomes this amazingly flavorful dish that I feel like people,

• 7:54Speaker 02

  I think because of their culture, like they think of oatmeal as like something bland. They just have to eat it as breakfast.

• 8:00Dan Pashman?

  Or something sweet.

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Something sweet.

• 8:02Dan Pashman?

  Apple cinnamon, maple syrup.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Exactly, but once you get out of the mindset, there's so many possibilities that will make you fall in love with oats again.

• 8:10Dan Pashman?

  Well, that's very interesting.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I wish I could. It's a texture thing. I'm so sorry.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  So you don't like oatmeal, period?

• 8:16Dan Pashman?

  You don't like oatmeal at all?

• 8:17Speaker 01

  So we drink it as like, almost like a drink.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Do you like porridge?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  I, I like Korean porridge. Yeah, I eat that.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  It literally tastes exactly the same.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  It's something about it. There's something in there.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  I wish I could blindfold you and just like feed you what I make. And you're gonna be like, oh my God, mm-mm, this is so delicious. And I'm gonna shop for mine.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Like literally, I will find, I would be like, why are you feeding me oatmeal? You know?

• 8:41Speaker 02

  You're not gonna know that it's oatmeal.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  It'll bubble from my spirit, from the death.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I will bet you $100. I'll be like,

• 8:50Dan Pashman?

  All right, thank you $500. All right, take it easy.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Oh, I cannot wait.

• 8:54Dan Pashman?

  All right, to be continued. We're gonna have to, Paula, the next time you're in New York, we're bringing you in studio for a blindfolded oatmeal taste test. Let's do that. All right.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 9:08Dan Pashman?

  You guys ready to hear from some Sporkful listeners? I'm ready. All right, we're gonna get into the food fights in a bit, but let's start with some hot takes. Here's the first one.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Hey, Sporkful, my name is Ola and I live in Denver, Colorado. My hottest food take is that I think the broccoli stems are way better than the fluffy tree bits. I think that the stems are perfectly crunchy and full of better flavor. My husband very strongly disagrees. He prefers the crumbly tree bits. So it works out pretty well because when we have broccoli, we just trade and I get all the stems and he gets all the weird little tree parts. Obviously, he's wrong about this, but I would love to hear your take. Related food takes are that I also prefer the stem of the asparagus to the tip. And I think the best part of a watermelon is that last bite of pink into the white.

• 10:01Speaker 03

  I just think it has the best texture to flavor combo in the entire melon. Would love to hear your take. Bye.

• 10:06Dan Pashman?

  Well, clearly, Ola in Denver likes crunch. She's very focused on the crunchiest parts of every food. James, what's your take on the broccoli stem as opposed to the florets?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yes, to broccoli stems, but I think it needs to be chopped or prepared in a way that is really maximizing its best texture. I think it would be really nice if you finely chop so that like in the room of more soft, tender florets, like you get this like a surprising crunchy bite. So I really think you should utilize a whole broccoli for that. But I also don't wanna pick a side of like stem is better than the other because I think both of them have like amazing flavors and texture. And that's why we get broccoli as two different parts. So you should get the stem.

• 10:55Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I'm also for team crunch.

• 10:57Dan Pashman?

  All right. Paula, broccoli stems, where do you stand?

• 11:00Speaker 01

  Can we just like touch base on the watermelon though?

• 11:03Dan Pashman?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. That was the one that I was like, excuse me. I agreed everything until you said that.

• 11:08Dan Pashman?

  Really? I love that part.

• 11:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 11:10Dan Pashman?

  It's a little bit tart.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  It's okay.

• 11:11Dan Pashman?

  And extra crunchy. It's very watery.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  You would choose that over the pink, like, fleshy, watery? That explodes the wonderful juicing of it.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, the pink part is like what you would give to somebody that you love. The white part is your enemies. You know what I mean?

• 11:27Speaker 02

  It's just like, sure, I will eat it because I don't want to like, you know, leave too much pink on it. But I wouldn't say I would choose that over the watermelon.

• 11:35Dan Pashman?

  I agree that I would not rank that as the best bite of the watermelon. But I do enjoy it and I like the contrast that it provides to the softer, sweeter, juicier parts. I like the firm crunch of it. I like the tartness and bitterness that it adds. You know, like when I'm cutting a watermelon for my kids, I'll snack on the, on the rindy parts and then grab a couple of sweet parts and go back and forth.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I don't like yucking anybody's yum because my stuff might be weird. But yeah, that one was like, mm, mm.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  Like, I definitely had a reaction. I was like, definitely agreeing. I'm like, wait a minute. Like, let's, let's go back to that.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  It made me backtrack. It made me backtrack. Like, all of a sudden, I was like, I hate stems.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  So back to the broccoli. I love the florets, right? But I also love the stems done in different applications, right? Like, when you're roasting broccoli, I want a little more stem, you know? Because like, the floret does shrivel up a little bit. But that's the best part. When you roast it, the shriveled up floret is like, mm, like, that's nutritious. Wow, you know what I mean? But there's no difference to me because I feel like the more stem, the more broccoli I get. But the floret has more of the broccoli flavor.

• 12:47Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  If that makes sense.

• 12:49Dan Pashman?

  So I think we all agree that we like broccoli stems, but you've got to put thought into how you're going to cut the stem because it should be cut in such a way that it's going to cook in a way to provide some kind of textural compliment to the rest of the broccoli.

• 13:06Dan Pashman?

  Coming up, we'll take a live call from a couple with a food dispute about the correct doneness of food. James and Pauly, you want to stick around?

• 13:12Speaker 02

  I'll be here.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 13:14Dan Pashman?

  All right, we'll be right back.

• 13:22Speaker 04

  And now, a delicious word from our sponsors.

• 13:33Dan Pashman?

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• 14:15Dan Pashman?

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• 14:58Dan Pashman?

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• 15:36Dan Pashman?

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• 16:20Dan Pashman?

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• 16:46Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, I took a trip to the Metropolitan Museum of Art, but I was not there to see exhibits. In fact, I didn't even go inside. Instead, I talked with Dan Rossi, who sells hot dogs right outside the front door of the Met, which is considered the most coveted spot for a street food vendor in all of New York City. In fact, it's so coveted that Dan has to sleep in his van next to his cart every night, so no one takes his spot. Now, Dan's got a long history as a food vendor in the city. Back in the 90s, the city took all but one of his vending permits away, leaving him destitute. But Dan didn't give up.

• 17:21Speaker 05

  I still got one permit they left me. I said, you know what? I'm gonna sell hot dogs.

• 17:26Dan Pashman?

  But it doesn't sound like that was the end of the troubles.

• 17:30Speaker 05

  That was the beginning.

• 17:32Dan Pashman?

  Dan tells me his whole story and the secret to making a really good hot dog. That episode's up now. Check it out.

• 17:39Dan Pashman?

  Now, back to our call-in episode. I'm joined once again by cookbook authors and beloved Instagram food personalities, James Park and Paolo Valles. Hello to both of you.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Hello.

• 17:48Dan Pashman?

  All right, let's take a couple more questions and hot takes. Then we're gonna get to our live callers. Here's a voice memo.

• 17:54Speaker 06

  Hey, Dan. Evan from Washington DC here. I, for most of my life, ate the entire shrimp, tail and all. They were not the heads, but I would eat the tail. I did not know that was weird until I got to college and then was uniformly ridiculed by everybody. And then I went home and found out that my mom and brother also do this. And so I was trained as a child not to know this was weird. And that got me thinking, what are some other weird foods that people eat? I've recently found out that a friend of mine eats the peanut entirely, shell and all. To me, that is far weirder than eating the full shrimp. Thanks. Love the show.

• 18:36Dan Pashman?

  Paolo, what's your take? What do you think of this?

• 18:38Speaker 01

  So I'm of the camp of not eating the tail. I just don't like the texture. But I also like, there's people that I know that'll eat like head and all. And I'm like, are you unwell? You know, like, at least just like prep me. Like prep me, right? Like, I don't, I don't mind if you love it, but like, give me a little warning. Be like, I eat it all. You know what I mean? Like, that way I know that I'm like, ah, instead of like freaking out and passing out, you know?

• 19:08Dan Pashman?

  Let me ask James. James, what do you think?

• 19:09Speaker 02

  I'm the person who eats the whole thing. And you just call me, I'm unwell. And I'm unwell about that.

• 19:16Speaker 01

  No, no, just let me know. I'm just saying, like, because in America, we got everything ultra-processed. We're not used to eating things that look at us.

• 19:25Dan Pashman?

  Are you including the head, James?

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's where all the, like, amazing flavors are. So like, if it's just like a poached shrimp, which usually it's just the meat and the tail part, you don't really see the head part. But like, when it's like grilled prawns or grilled shrimp with the head and everything, you know what the lobster or crab, like the rows are like where all the flavors are? The same thing as shrimp. Like, when you're taking a bite of like a perfectly roasted, a whole prawn or shrimp. All the flavors are in the head part. And like, that is where people are missing out. And honestly, like, when I do eat out with my Asian friends, we're all fighting over the head because we all know where the flavors are. We kind of grew up eating like that.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  But when I'm eating out with like, non-Asian friends, they leave out like, all the parts, like chicken wings. Like, they leave so much meat on the bones, and like, you know.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  Well, that's not me. That's not me.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  So, I feel like shrimp, you should really like, I mean, I get it.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  It's not for me.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  Uh, which I respect, but sometimes I wanna like, make sure that they experience the flavors.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I don't even eat the mustard in like, crabs.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Oh!

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't eat that.

• 20:38Dan Pashman?

  I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm fanning James. James is looking faint.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  You can have all my, my seafood guts.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  No!

• 20:47Speaker 01

  You could have it all, but I don't.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Oh my god, that, that makes me so sad.

• 20:52Dan Pashman?

  The two of you need to go out to eat together, James, and you can get all her shrimp heads.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  You are my floret to my stem.

• 20:58Speaker 02

  Oh! I think I just got proposed.

• 21:04Dan Pashman?

  I, I have eaten shrimp heads, and I agree with you. Like, if you have not grown up with it, then I, I understand that, I think that it's just unfamiliar to you. But like, I had aguachiles in Southern California, and like, with the whole shrimp and the head, and like, that super acidic, super spicy broth, and I ate the head. And like, it was a little bit of a mental thing to get over the texture, which is not something I'm accustomed to, but I loved it. And I eat shrimp shells. I'm with you, Paula, sometimes they're, they're a little pointy going down your throat. But I, first of all, like, if you're at like, a past hors d'oeuvre situation, like, I don't wanna hold all the shrimp tails in my hand, I'd rather just eat them. I like the crunch. There's a place right around the corner here in Midtown Manhattan called Cafe China, great Chinese restaurant, they've got a Kung Fu shrimp. It's like a fried shrimp with Sichuan peppercorns and peanuts and tons of garlic.

• 21:48Dan Pashman?

  That doesn't have the heads, but it has the whole shell on the shrimp, and then it's fried, it's batter with the shell underneath the batter, and the crunch. When you bite through the fried exterior, and then the crunch of the shell, and then you get into the tender, meaty shrimp on the inside, and you get the crunchy peppercorns and the peanuts.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Well, I think the outer shell is softer than the tail and the head, though. I don't mind doing that, like, I will eat that before I like chomp on a head.

• 22:11Dan Pashman?

  I think you two are both more advanced shrimp tasters than I am. But I think we'll have to agree to disagree, like I said, you know, to each his own.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:18Dan Pashman?

  All right, we got one more voice memo from a listener that I wanna cover, let's hear it.

• 22:22Speaker 07

  Hey, this is Dan in Oregon. I think the heuristic of I cook, you clean, or you cook, I clean is indeed of an update. Leaving aside the fact that some people like cooking more than others, so it's not usually the chore that cleaning is. The main problem I see is that I cook, you clean, doesn't give me much incentive, despite our best intentions, to be judicious in the amount of utensils I use, if I clean up as I go, if I put ingredients away, etc. So I think a better agreement might be something like, I cook, and I'll clean the kitchen, and you set and clear the table, you handle the leftovers, and you start and empty the dishwasher. Something along those lines, I think, would be a little bit better.

• 23:02Dan Pashman?

  Paula, what are your thoughts on the idea of I cook, you clean? This is a common arrangement in many households. One person cooks dinner, the other person cleans up. What are your thoughts on this idea that it needs to be revised?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Well, I think that they feel like it's tit for tat, and it shouldn't be that way. I think we need to boil it down to clean as you go, right? So there's not like this giant pile of dishes, etc. But also like saying like, oh, like I'll clean the dishes, and then you load the dishwasher. So then who's doing the dishes? So you want good sis to set the table, take care of the leftovers, load the dishwasher, which is doing the dishes. And then what? You just eat? That's not fair, you know? I don't think that's fair. It's very imbalanced. So I say, you know, clean as you go. And then also whoever cooks, yes, they can relax after their meal. We're of the family that like when we finish our meal, like we don't leave dishes for the next day.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  We just do the dishes. And for my husband and I, it's the same way that we set the table, but then everybody comes together and does dishes, right? And we kind of like pack all the food. And then we go about, it's like so much faster if we all do it together.

• 24:14Dan Pashman?

  But what do you do if someone in your family isn't as thorough at washing the dishes as you are? And then the pots are drying, and there's still crusty bits on them because they didn't scrub well enough?

• 24:25Speaker 01

  I mean, that's what the dishwasher is for, right?

• 24:28Dan Pashman?

  But I'm saying that certain things get washed by hand.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:31Dan Pashman?

  Like big pots and pans we don't usually put in the dishwasher, they take up too much space. But there could be crusty bits and those need a little elbow grease. And sometimes, some people try to help me wash the dishes and then I find crusty bits on things later. And then I say, now I'm just gonna have to wash it a second time. James, you're nodding. What do you think about this issue?

• 24:50Speaker 02

  See, I feel like there's so much of like, okay, I cook so you clean. So the person who's cleaning feels like they have more job. When it comes to cooking and enjoying, it's really hard to put it as 50/50. And I think we just have to accept that. Because sometimes I feel like I have to use more pots than usual to execute a dish. And I would get complaints from whoever's supposed to clean. I'm like, oh, like, why are you using more pots and dishes than I normally would have? So it's like, there's so much tension around this. So I feel like we should just kinda have every part of it a little bit have the other person involved. So like, from the planning part, I know that cooking is not just cooking.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  You have to think about what you're gonna cook. So you have to go out grocery, you have to prepare. So there's a lot of different elements that the other person who's not doing active cooking can be a part of. So if you're sharing those kinda duties from the beginning to the end, maybe two people can feel like there's less of an imbalance of a task. But this is more like our together duty.

• 25:55Dan Pashman?

  I agree with that. And I'll actually take it even a step further, James. I think about this meme that I see on social media all the time that someone posted. It's been reshared a billion times. Someone wrote, "Cooking together is not romantic. Move out my [bleep] way." It's like, not everything has to be shared, okay? Whether you live alone, or with a whole big family, or anywhere in between, like, having a home requires all kinds of work. Cooking, and cleaning, and maintenance, and errands, and chores, and laundry. All of the things that are required to just like maintaining a home. And some people are better at some of those than others. Some people like some of those chores more than others, or at least dislike them less than others. And so ideally,

• 26:37Dan Pashman?

  All the people who live in the house are contributing equally to the overall work of maintaining the house.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:42Dan Pashman?

  But I like to cook more than my wife does. I enjoy it. She doesn't really enjoy it. And I don't love washing dishes, but I don't mind it, and I'm better at it than she is. She mostly folds the laundry. I almost never fold the laundry. She's in charge of laundry. So like, it doesn't bother me that I'm almost always washing the dishes, because she's almost always doing the laundry.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:01Dan Pashman?

  So like, not every task has to be shared 50/50.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  But sometimes, like, you know, Dan said, it's like, the compromise happens so quickly and effortlessly. Like, I'm the only person that mops in the house, because I just know my husband doesn't like that. You know what I mean? Like, he just doesn't like the idea of the mop. Like, I don't even think about it. I'm just like, I just mop. Like, that's my thing. But like, if I ever have to take out the trash, I might die. You know, like, the smell is disgusting. And also, when I lived in the Bronx, I grew up with like, the metal trashcans. And there was like, a raccoon in there, so I have PTSD. I'm not going to no trash bin. I don't want to touch that. So, my husband has to take out the trash.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  All of these are applicable to you guys, because you have another person to divide the task. I am here, speaking of there are people who live by themselves, who have to do everything by themselves. And it's really difficult. So, it's nice that you guys can share a task, but you know, I cannot. So like, shout out to everyone who lives by themselves and has to do all the tasks by themselves.

• 28:05Dan Pashman?

  That's right. The flip side is though, no one's gonna tell you you're doing it wrong.

• 28:07Speaker 02

  That is true.

• 28:13Dan Pashman?

  All right, now it's time for us to try to help resolve a food dispute. We have a live call coming in. The two, you ready to take this?

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I'm so ready.

• 28:19Dan Pashman?

  Hi, who's this?

• 28:20Speaker 08

  Hi, this is Sheila. I'm from Vancouver, B.C. And I'm here with my husband Brent.

• 28:26Dan Pashman?

  All right, hello Sheila, hello Brent. Say hi to my friends Paula and James here.

• 28:30Speaker 08

  Hey, hi.

• 28:31Dan Pashman?

  Hi Paula, hi James.

• 28:32Speaker 08

  Hello.

• 28:33Dan Pashman?

  So what can we do for you? What seems to be the issue?

• 28:35Speaker 08

  Well, we have an issue about the dunnness of our vegetables. I come from a Cantonese background. I, uh, my mom always cooked our vegetables lightly. And Brent comes from a family where he liked his vegetables more well-done. To me, they're very soft and mushy and not as palatable. We share our cooking responsibilities half-half. So usually when Brent cooks, he'll take my broccoli out early. So it's less well-done. And in the end, I end up eating cold broccoli, which I don't like.

• 29:14Dan Pashman?

  How long have the two of you been married?

• 29:15Speaker 09

  Twenty-eight years.

• 29:17Dan Pashman?

  And Brent, setting aside Sheila's editorial comment about how she doesn't like your vegetables as much, do you agree with her basic characterization of how you like your vegetables?

• 29:26Speaker 09

  Yep, I would say that that's accurate, yeah. She uses the word mushy, cooked to oblivion, and various other insults. But the truth is, I sort of like it cooked medium rather than, than really lightly cooked, which is the Cantonese style.

• 29:41Speaker 08

  Brent's a vegetarian, so we don't eat meat. And even before, when he did eat meat, he did like his meat more well-done. He likes his pasta more well-done. I like al dente, which is, I think, the, the instructed way of eating pasta.

• 30:00Speaker 09

  I mean, what you say is true. I mean, whatever cuisine, whatever food we're talking about, whatever we're cooking, these issues crop up. Like with, with pasta. If the package says al dente, ten minutes, Sheila will set the timer for ten minutes. I'll sneak in there and add a couple of minutes because I like it just a little more than well-cooked than al dente.

• 30:20Dan Pashman?

  Oh, did you know he was adjusting your timer, Sheila? That's subversive.

• 30:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, he adjusts not just the timer, but it's the temperature of the pot as well.

• 30:29Dan Pashman?

  Oh.

• 30:30Speaker 08

  Yeah, he, he sneaks in there all the time. He really does.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  What culture did you grow up, Brent? Just so that I have an understanding.

• 30:38Speaker 09

  I grew up in Washington State in a fairly small town. But my background is, is Irish and Scottish. And my parents, I mean, cooking for them wasn't quite as important as it is for us. We had a big family. They would just cook casseroles and mashed potatoes and...

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Which is delicious and comforting, for sure.

• 30:53Dan Pashman?

  Right. So, so that's where you grew up with Brent? But you also have, have lived in Asia, is that right?

• 30:58Speaker 09

  Yeah, we've lived together in Hong Kong, Taipei and Shanghai for more than 20 years. Yeah.

• 31:04Dan Pashman?

  So even having grown up with one certain culinary background, I'm surprised that it hasn't had more of an impact in changing your tastes.

• 31:12Speaker 08

  Me too, Dan.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  I'm very surprised. I want to know, what's a dish that you guys can agree on that it's good? Because I feel like there's a lot, I'm sensing a lot of disagreement, but I want to understand both of you in a way. What is like a dish that you guys can come together in a way? We both like this.

• 31:34Speaker 09

  Any kind of baked casserole.

• 31:35Speaker 08

  Yeah, like the enchiladas we had last night.

• 31:37Speaker 09

  Enchiladas or lasagna, anything that you put in the oven and bake until it's done, we'll agree on.

• 31:43Speaker 02

  Okay, so Sheila, I guess you are okay with the dumbness if you're eating a dish that doesn't have a lot of crunchy element? Like enchilada, for example?

• 31:53Speaker 08

  Yeah, no, you know what? I like all kinds of foods, you know? I like casseroles, I like, you know, stews, but I also like the crunchiness of salads and lightly cooked foods, too.

• 32:06Speaker 02

  Brent, do you like the crunchy element? Or is the crunch usually the texture that doesn't bring you pleasure as much?

• 32:15Speaker 09

  I'd say that's accurate, depending. I mean, obviously in a salad or certain other foods, I do like crunch. But in vegetables, no, I don't really want the vegetables' texture to be present.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  So do you prefer french fries or mashed potatoes?

• 32:29Speaker 09

  Ooh, that's. I mean, I'll always say mashed potatoes, especially with cream.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  I knew it, I knew it.

• 32:35Dan Pashman?

  And Sheila, french fries or mashed potatoes?

• 32:37Speaker 08

  Ooh, I'd say french fries.

• 32:40Dan Pashman?

  Okay, there we see.

• 32:41Speaker 08

  Another component to this issue is I like to eat my food hot. Brent likes to eat his food room temperature.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  It's the same way that my mother-in-law, we like to eat our steak medium. She wants it well done, you know? And we've adapted to make sure that we are a everybody eats at the same time family, but we're also, everything needs to be like steaming hot, like burning your mouth family. So like, how do you adapt for those two different cook temps? So I actually understand.

• 33:15Dan Pashman?

  Right. Do you have kids?

• 33:17Speaker 08

  Yeah, we have two kids. We have two daughters.

• 33:19Dan Pashman?

  How old are they?

• 33:20Speaker 08

  They're 22 and 24.

• 33:22Dan Pashman?

  And what's their take on, uh, on, on Dunya's? How do they like their meats and vegetables cooked?

• 33:28Speaker 08

  Okay, so Brent is a very big personality in our family. So he's kind of gathered them over to his side of the fence.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 33:39Speaker 09

  So have I.

• 33:40Speaker 08

  I think they both prefer things more well done than I do.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  So you're outnumbered?

• 33:46Speaker 08

  I'm outnumbered, but I cook.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  But you have the control.

• 33:51Speaker 08

  Probably. I probably cook more, like, I cook about 60% of the time. Brent cooks 40.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 33:58Dan Pashman?

  But how does that feel, Sheila, that the kids have gotten the way?

• 34:01Speaker 08

  I feel betrayal.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, you didn't, like, train them young? Like, you, at least, like, if you have two daughters, you have to have one person on your side.

• 34:10Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 08

  I know. The dog was on my side.

• 34:17Dan Pashman?

  All right, so, James, what advice would you give to Sheila and Brent?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Okay, so if I were in your situation, I would find ways to add crunchy elements. Like, seems like you're already outnumbered sadly, so like, you know, I think what I would do is like, add like crunchy toppings for like broccoli, or like whether it's fresh salads, or like fried garlic chips, like-

• 34:40Dan Pashman?

  Crushed peanuts.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, crushed peanuts. I think there is a way to add other texture elements of something that's considered like soft. So like, for example, mashed potato, like, you know, give them without any topping, but you could have it with like some like fried garlic chips or fried salads, so that you are finding ways to add that texture pleasure. But that is just kind of if you want to be peaceful and just kind of make everyone happy. But, as Brent said, you are the one who kind of can rule the kitchen, so make them figure out their problem. So I think you should just cook whatever, and you've already put up with three different people who are against you, and life is too short for you to just like keep making-

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Things peaceful. So sometimes, okay, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you eat what I want. And then they get to deal with their problems and on Tuesday, Thursday, like Saturday. So I think it's all about communication, but you know, since you like the done this and to be honest, I think I'm on your side, Sheila. So yeah, no, I'm absolutely in your side, but you know, sometimes you have to give up certain thing for the peace, but other times you don't have to do this. And Brent, listen to your wife who's right. And then, and just kind of like, okay, almost, I don't know, blindfold yourself and just like enjoy the texture and the flavors that these like vegetables have. And I think if you allow yourself to be a little bit more open minded, there's going to be a point where you could

• 36:12Speaker 02

  really open yourself of like, oh, this is like the flavor and texture that I was missing out.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Okay. That's good advice.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Paula, what do you think?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  So I'm married. We live in the world of compromise and mediation. You know, so I would suggest actually starting Brent's cook time before you start yours, Sheila. So like same dishes, same applications, but you know, if you like your pasta a little more al dente, maybe you invest in like a little strainer that goes in the pasta pot that you then add your pasta to so that the girls and your husband can have their softer pasta and you can have your more al dente pasta. Same thing with veggies, right? So let's say you're roasting veggies, you start them for Brent and the girls.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  And then you add your veggies later and just make sure that you remember which side of the pan they're on. But you'll also, you'll feel it, right? Texture wise, right? And you just adapt the cook time. If you know that to get Brent's ideal, we've been talking about broccoli today, 20 minutes for broccoli, right? But you like yours a little more crunchy, more al dente. Then 20 minutes, you know, you start that timer and right when it gets down to that five minute mark, you toss yours in. So now inherently you just created a different texture within the same cooking application. And then also that makes everything come out at the same time. It eliminates that heat issue. So instead of pulling it out first, you're adding it later. And then everything is hot.

• 37:46Dan Pashman?

  Right. That's actually pretty much the advice I was gonna offer, which is to add your food later as opposed to taking it out earlier. Sheila and Brent, I hope this has been helpful to you. I think this is a pretty good technique. It involves a little more work, but you know, if you want your vegetables done two ways, if you want to put in a little extra effort, I think this is a good suggestion. So Sheila and Brent in Vancouver, best of luck with your next stir fry.

• 38:08Speaker 08

  Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. We'll give it a try.

• 38:12Dan Pashman?

  Okay, well, we have covered a lot of ground here. I hope we've helped some Sporkful listeners in the process. I gotta say though, you know, when we first started, I thought Paula, I thought you were gonna bring the hot takes and James, I thought you'd be more warm and fuzzy. But I think I underestimated you, James. I think you had just as many hot takes.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, like food makes me very emotional in many different ways. So definitely I have a lot of emotions coming out when someone says something that's so dear to me. Like savory oatmeal. I'm literally gonna travel to like Washington DC and mouth feed you my savory oatmeal.

• 38:53Dan Pashman?

  All right, well, I think we have covered a lot of ground here. I hope we've helped a lot of Sporkful listeners. Before we wrap up, I do wanna remind folks listening that we are always on the lookout for people to call in with food-related disagreements and disputes, questions, hot takes, whatever it may be. Please send me a voice memo with your issue to [email protected]. My thanks to Paula Velez and James Park. Paula's new cookbook is called Bodega Bakes. She also has a bar in Washington DC called Providencia. Bon appetit, named it one of the best new bars of 2025. So if you're in DC, check it out. You can find her on Instagram at Small Orchids. Thank you, Paula.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 39:27Dan Pashman?

  And James's cookbook is Chili Crisp on Instagram. He is at Jamesy World. Thank you, James.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 39:34Dan Pashman?

  While you're following people on Instagram, follow me. I often share behind-the-scenes photos and videos from podcast tapings, things I'm cooking and eating, and a lot more on Instagram. I am at the Sporkful. Next week on the show, we have a brand new update on one of our most beloved episodes ever. It's all about a sandwich shop in Aleppo, Syria, that we went searching for years ago. Well, as you know, there's been a lot happening in Syria. The Assad regime has fallen. A lot has changed. We are going to get an update on Shadi Martini, the main character of that story, and on the sandwich shop. And we're going to start off by rerunning the original series to catch up anyone who missed it, to refresh your memory. And then the following week, roll right into the update. While you're waiting for that one, check out last week's show with the hot dog king of New York, Dan

• 40:17Dan Pashman?

  Rossi. He's been selling hot dogs in one of the most coveted pieces of real estate in the whole city, and he has had to fight off the cops, City Hall, and other vendors to keep his turf. That one's up now. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the Sirius XM app? Yes, the Sirius XM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the Sirius XM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern and senior producer Andres O'Hara and producer Shantel Holder

• 41:02Dan Pashman?

  Our engineer is Jared O'Connell Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Stitcher Studios. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman. And I'm Preston from Edmonton, Alberta, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.

• 41:24Speaker 10

  This podcast is supported by Nurtec ODT, Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time, and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtec. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtec can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtec is right for you, because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to NerTec ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain, or color changes in fingers

• 42:09Speaker 10

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• 42:23Speaker 11

  Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper, 7-Up, Inc.