Crazy NFL Trade Deadline Swings and the Future of Filmmaking With Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Sheil Kapadia to react to the NFL trade deadline moves (2:54). Then, Sean Fennessey and Van Lathan join to discuss the movie industry, young filmmakers, and much more (50:58)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Sheil Kapadia, Sean Fennessey, and Van Lathan Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Get Gameday Deals all season long only on Uber Eats. Order Now. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down ready to watch the game only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, as well as the Ringer Podcast Network. We put up a new rewatchables last night. We did the Truman Show with a special guest Glenn Powell, and he was great. And the podcast was awesome. So I would highly encourage you to go check that one out. You can listen on, not only on the Ringer, but

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

  on the Ringer website as well. All of our football stuff, trade deadline happened this week, some, some head scratchers. Sheil Kapadia is going to come on in one second and, and talk about that. And then I'm going to run something. So yesterday, Sean Fantastin Van Lathan and I did a rewatchables. And we did two hours on, on a Brian De Palma movie. And at the end, as, as I was saying goodbye and wrapping it up, we got in this conversation about De Palma and filmmakers and just movies and went for like another 75 minutes. And it was, it was kind of an argument, but we're all friends. So it was just like more like

• 1:26Bill Simmons?

  a debate. And we ended up talking about the, the future of the movie business, how to find young filmmakers, what is creativity in 2025? It's just, it just goes all over the place. And we decided to cut it out of the rewatchables and just run it here because otherwise the rewatchables would have been three plus hours. Plus, I think it's something that can hold its own. And I thought it was really good. And it's the kind of stuff that

• 1:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Sometimes in pods, I think people are afraid to really disagree with each other and get mad at each other and the whole thing. And I think with us, because we've all known each other for so long, we can have conversations where it's like, nobody's trying to win the conversation. We're just arguing in a good way. So I thought it was really good and I wanted to run it here. So we're gonna have Sheil Kapadia and I are gonna talk about the NFL trade deadline and Dallas and the Jets and all the, and did the Super Bowl picture change? And then me and Sean and Van talking about movies. Let's take a break. Bring your Pearl Jam. Sorry, my video isn't great. I'm in Boston, but so be it. Anyway, taking a break. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like needing the protection offensive guard

• 2:35Bill Simmons?

  on the football field, but getting an elementary school crossing guard. Sure, they're both guards, but you can only trust one to keep your quarterback safe when the game is on the line. So don't settle for just any insurance. When you can have State Farm, like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

• 3:17Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're recording 4:15 East Coast time. The host of the Ringer NFL Show as well as the Phillies special. His fingers used to work a lot more. You're moving toward me with the fingers not working as much. Sheil Kapadia is here. You can still break them out every once in a while.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I can still break them out. I just wrote a little blurb about what the Eagles did at the trade deadline, just not as, you know, as, as good as they used to be.

• 3:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, since you stopped writing as much, your picks went in the tank. I don't know if that's, I mean, that's a correlation.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  The year from hell. Yeah.

• 3:48Bill Simmons?

  All of us, the Ringer 107, embarrassing. But that's not what we're here to talk about. I didn't expect to do an NFL trade deadline top of the pod today because usually it's a disappointing trade deadline. So many fascinating things happen today. I don't even know where to start. What was your number one most fascinating thing that happened today?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  I mean, that Sauce Gardner trade was crazy. Like, like you said, usually on trade deadline day, we see, all right, some minor moves, maybe a third round pick, a second round pick, if you're lucky. I can't remember the last time in in-season trade, two first round picks for a guy who, I don't know about you, I read all the coverage. I don't remember anyone saying, hey, maybe the Jets will trade Sauce Gardner at the trade deadline. So that was a stunner.

• 4:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, I know I have some Jets fans in my life, as do you. None of them were like doing backflips about how Sauce Gardner was playing for the last year and a half. And I even noticed, like, it's not like I have the Jets on the multi-view every week, but I've, I've watched a bunch of them. And it just felt like he was a little better two years ago, still really good. If I'm giving that up for a cornerback, you better be by far the best cornerback in the league. Like, if they did this for Surtan, I would be like, all right, I get it. That guy's been lights out. I, I, I get it. They also throw in Mitchell, who was their second round pick a year ago, who might be a good receiver. Like, he basically got banished after he had the stupid wave the baby over the goal line move. So I just thought they gave up so much. We could talk about that piece, but is that too much for Sauce Gardner?

• 5:18Speaker 01

  I say yes. I mean, I'm looking at, you know, people's reactions and they're all excited about this. But to me, if you're the Colts, like you said, for two first round picks, it's either a quarterback, Miles Garrett, or Micah Parsons. Like, if you're offering me two first-

• 5:32Bill Simmons?

  Anybody else? Justin Jefferson?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think you could make the case for Jamar Chase. I mean, there's probably maybe eight to 10 players. But basically, for a defensive player who's not a pass, an elite pass rusher in their prime, if I'm getting offered two first round picks, I'm listening every single time. And so if you're the Jets, you know, he is on a good contract. He's young, but I like getting the two first round picks for him. And if you're the Colts, to me, if you, if you're not settled at quarterback, like, to me, this, there are some red flags here, Bill. Like, the Colts are telling us, they feel like they can win it all, you know, they can get to the Super Bowl. They feel like they found their quarterback in Daniel Jones. Remember, he's a free agent at the end of the season. So they're like, oh, this is our Super Bowl window. And to me, it's,

• 6:18Speaker 01

  it's, it's kind of like, you know, your friend who goes out on two dates with someone and they're, they're in love. They're ready to propose. Like, take it slow. Let's get a little bigger sample with Daniel Jones. We have like six years of history with this guy. Because those picks, you might need those picks to get a quarterback. I hate to say it, but like, like, let me ask you this question. A year from now, what are the odds that we're saying the Colts need a quarterback? A year from now, November, early November, that we're saying, you know what? The Colts are kind of in the market for a quarterback.

• 6:48Bill Simmons?

  50/50.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 6:50Bill Simmons?

  I love your two dates analogy, too. And by the way, they had an awful date last week.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 6:57Bill Simmons?

  They got in a fight at the restaurant, and she threw up in the car on the way home.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Poisoning.

• 7:02Bill Simmons?

  And disappeared for eight hours. Yeah. And then had diarrhea all over the place. That's how bad that date was. So if they made this trade a week ago, I'd feel a little better about it. But coming off that game, here's like, all right. And I was, both of us were like, shit, this Colts offense is for real. Like, this team is checking all the boxes of they're blowing teams out. They can run the ball, throw the ball. They're really well coached, at least so far. Let's see it on grass. I picked them last week in Ringer 107. I thought they're better than the Steelers. That's a game, if you have a really good, possible Super Bowl contender team, you're going into Pittsburgh, you're taking care of business. And it was the opposite. It was really

• 7:43Bill Simmons?

  bad. And I don't think Sauce Gardner changes my fears about them on the road on grass. Now, maybe they're thinking, Sheil, we don't, we're not going to play on grass. We're going for the one seed. It goes through us through a dome, and we won't even see grass again until we get to Santa Clara is the only thing I can think.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you're a Colts fan, like you said, you're probably excited about it because you're like, oh, we got a stud corner. We're having a very fun season that we didn't expect with Daniel Jones. So I get that perspective if you're a Colts fan, but yeah, I'm just with you with the 50 50. And even this year, I mean, they're having a very good season. We're talking about an eight game sample that has been an outlier from anything Daniel Jones has done previously in his entire career. When you look at what he's saying, it's not nine games because like you said, they sucked last week. They looked terrible. He turned into a pumpkin. And by the way, they had the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. If you just look at the betting markets, you know, they do the strength of schedule. It's the hardest remaining schedule in the NFL. So I'm not telling you it's

• 8:46Speaker 01

  all fraudulent and they're going to stink. If it were me, I would say, all right, I can see being tempted, but let's just take it slow. We have a good team. Maybe we make a more minor move here at the deadline, trade a third round pick for somebody, that kind of thing. Let's see where we're at at the end of the season. Maybe we franchise tag Daniel Jones. Maybe we don't. We have those picks. We could trade for a player in a future year. To me, it's just, you know, two years from now, we could be looking at that pick. If the Colts win, I don't know. How many games are the Colts going to win next year? Like, are you confident they're going to win that division? I'm not, you know, that could be a top 15 pick in 2027.

• 9:23Bill Simmons?

  I looked up at Fanduel as you were talking. Even this year, their over under is 11 and a half. They're seven and two, six and two. No, seven and two.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Seven, two.

• 9:33Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 9:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:34Bill Simmons?

  And, and seven and two with the leverage game happening.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:41Bill Simmons?

  Really, probably six and three.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:44Bill Simmons?

  But fine, seven and two. I don't know if I would go over on them this year. And then next year, everybody's a year older. They got a really, they got one more really awesome, healthy Taylor season this year, at least so far. Now that I'm their pick, I guess that the bigger thing I'm looking at this is I'm not against the spirit of the trade. If it had been a second this year and a first next year.

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  Do you feel better about that? Because I know like everybody like McShay's been saying this and please listen to McShay's show this week. He's talking about that 27 draft is like a smorgasbord for quarterbacks and wide receivers. Right? That's everybody's kind of pointing at watch out for that draft. So you want to keep that first round in that draft, I guess. But would you care about this one? I don't know. Is that not enough?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  I still wouldn't be willing to be that aggressive at this point in time. I mean,

• 10:36Bill Simmons?

  You wouldn't have done that. You wouldn't have done a second and a 27 first for Sauce Gardner.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't push my chips in right now because if I'm, if I'm in that Colts building and in the meeting room and they're having this conversation, I'm going like if I'm the Bills or something, a team where you're just like, we have our quarterback, the Patriots even, I could say, all right, let's go ahead and take a big swing on something like that. We know we are not worried about quarterback right now. If I'm not set at quarterback, I want to keep all my options open for maybe a trade, maybe a veteran, maybe having to draft somebody in the future. And I know the Colts might not be at that, like the Colts and I view Daniel Jones differently. I think is what, what I learned this afternoon when I was looking at all the analysis. Cause I'm just like, I need to see more to actually trust it. So yeah, I would want to keep my picks. I want to keep my options open.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  I'm with you on the spirit of the trade. Like I'm not, you know, Sam Hinkie like worshipper or anything. I'm like, yeah, I like it. You have a chance, go for it. I just don't view them as that. Like I would still be very, very surprised if the Colts were in the Superbowl this year or next year.

• 11:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's interesting because my beloved Patriots, they did the opposite. They didn't do anything.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:48Bill Simmons?

  This is a team that really needed over everything else, an edge rusher, which your Eagles went and got Jalen Phillips, maybe the Dolphins didn't want to trade in division. I don't know the history behind that, but the Patriots need an edge rusher. They really needed a wide receiver other than Diggs who can get open on third and eight. And Diggs, he's playing between 40 and 55% of the snaps, right? And you look at the guy, once Booty went out last week, it like, like Matt Collins played three fifths of the game. Kyle Williams, who I don't think, I can't remember a single play he's made all year. He played half the game. So I see like, whether it was somebody like Shaheed, which I will talk about in a second. I thought that, that guy's always open five times a game.

• 12:32Bill Simmons?

  He just has never had a quarterback who can reach him, but he's always down the field with three steps on somebody. Whether they got somebody like that or, or a Cooper Cup type, Cooper Cup, obviously not him because he's on a team, but they did nothing. And I, do you feel like the Colts are that far ahead of the Pats to try to make the AFC title game? I don't feel that way.

• 12:52Speaker 01

  No, no, absolutely not. And I thought the Patriots were going to be aggressive here because they're one of those teams that has the cap space, as you know, in season. So they could have taken on a Trey Hendrickson.

• 13:04Bill Simmons?

  We have $48 million. We have like 17 million more than anyone else in the league.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  I know. So you could have taken on someone like Trey Hendrickson here. I thought Chris Olave on the Saints, I thought, do you get aggressive and give them like a second round pick for Chris Olave? Do they do that deal? I'm with you on Shaheed, you know, the deal the Seahawks made, I would have done that deal if I were the Patriots. So yeah, I would be a little disappointed if I were the Patriots. I mean, I, I think they have a chance. Again, those future draft picks are valuable, but they know they're not going to need to use those on a quarterback. I can't believe Trey Hendrickson didn't get, I mean, what are you doing if you're the Bengals? Like this to me is organizational malpractice where your team has no shot this year. The guy's a free agent at the end of the year and you're trying to. Like you can't just say, I think the price is a first round.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  The price is what someone is willing to pay. So you shop him, what's the best deal I can get? And, and those teams, like if I'm a fan of one of those teams that is out of it and just held on to one of these guys who's gone after the year, I would just be so upset with my front office.

• 14:09Bill Simmons?

  Their season ended on Sunday.

• 14:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:12Bill Simmons?

  Just period. It's, and it was probably over already, but it definitely ended on Sunday with that, with Caleb Williams hitting Love one over the middle and three guys blowing the tackle. I just, I like, I'm with you. I mean, they do this. And if you go like, as you know, I like searching the team reddits. It's one of the only Reddit searches I do. I just like to check the mood. I have all the teams bookmarked. Bengals Reddit's a grim place, man. That is like about as dark as you're gonna get out of the 32 teams with just, they just don't spend money. They don't care about anything. They're basically like the Clippers when Donald Sterling owned them of just like, happy to cash all the media paychecks from the league, spending just enough money to seem like they care, but not really. And then the team they put together this year,

• 14:56Bill Simmons?

  just to pay Burrow and two wide receivers have no offensive line and no defense and think that was gonna work. It was idiotic.

• 15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they've spent so much draft capital on that defense. Like they've tried to invest resources and none of the picks have pinned. I mean, that's one of the worst defense. I think you said it on Sunday. It's absolutely in the running for one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. I think there's five games this year where an offense has had 500 yards and three of them have been against the Bengals.

• 15:23Bill Simmons?

  They're really, truly generationally horrible. Like one of the worst defenses I've ever seen. Back to the Jets. The Patriots played them twice, which I was like, I was so, please trade all of your best guys. We still have to play. So basically the Pats are nine and two right now unless they have just a catastrophic loss. Anyway, the Jets get Indy's first, Dallas's first in the, in the Williams trade. Because it's either the choice of Dallas or Green Bay. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a guess that Dallas is gonna be worse than Green Bay. So Indy's first, Dallas's first, and they made their own first better with these trades.

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  I looked at, at Fandel, the over under for them right now is three and a half. You could do Jets under two and a half, plus 270. I'm in Boston. I did think about it. It might, it might be happening later, but three really good picks, two potential top 10 picks. The problem is it's Groundhog Day. This is what the Jets did four years ago. So this is just who the Jets are. Every, they draft, they hit some picks, they blow it with a quarterback. Four years later, they just trade guys and they start over, rinse, rattle, repeat.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't guarantee them anything. Like, like you said, it could just be the same thing in three years from now. We're like, oh, they're, you know, they drafted those guys and they're trading them. Now, I do feel like at least it's a plan. And I think their biggest thing is, how are you finding a quarterback? I mean, there's got to be, are you drafting one? Are you doing one of these reclamation projects? Are you trading for somebody who might be unhappy after the season? So I think this at least gives you options. You have five first round picks, two second round picks over the next two seasons. Again, it doesn't guarantee you anything, but if I were a Jets fan, the one thing I can say about those two trades, like, they absolutely maximize the value. If you would have asked me a week ago, hey, Sheil, what, what Sauce Gardner going to get on the open market? What would

• 17:18Speaker 01

  Quinn and Williams get? I would not have said, you're going to get back three first round picks and a second round pick in that deal. So I think they at least, if you're going to

• 17:28Bill Simmons?

  Second round pick from a bad team, potentially.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you said,

• 17:31Bill Simmons?

  That's gonna be like a top 42 pick.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yep, absolutely. Yeah, there's, there's no guarantee. So that's a lot of draft capital to work with. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it gives you a chance to find a quarterback, build your, I mean, they do have two good offensive tackles. They have a wide receiver once. It's not like some of those premium positions, they do have some players at least.

• 17:51Bill Simmons?

  Uh, the guy who made the trade, what's his name?

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Mugi.

• 17:56Bill Simmons?

  Mugi?

• 17:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know how you pronounce it. I guess I should.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  He was getting a lot of praise in Jet circles today, rightfully so. Those were two really good trades. He also did give Justin Fields two years, $40 million. I mean, that, that also happened. I have a friend, I have a bunch of Jets fan friends in my life, including my friend Mark Semino, who is so upset about Darnold being good now, because he always felt like Darnold was good and they screwed it up and they didn't buy, and they basically just ruined him. They basically, they had this nice house and they just did not take care of it. And the ceiling started to collapse and the sewage system blew and they just blew it with him. And he actually watches Darnold wherever he goes. He watches the games to torture himself because he's a Jets fan. But that's, that's how dark

• 18:44Bill Simmons?

  it is for this Jets thing. Like, they actually did it correctly. They did land a quarterback and the guy bounced around and now like he's potentially going to be on a one seed after going 14 and 3 last year, Sheil.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Jets fans have a, I found this too. They have a very soft spot for Darnold where like, like me, you know, you're, you're probably like me. Like, you know what? If, if, if the guy gets traded away and had, you're like, oh my God, screw that guy. You know, he couldn't do that here. That might be more, um, more, more hour speed. But yeah, I think cause Darnold just seems like a very cool, likeable guy who was just in this horrible situation. And it's like, oh, you know, we're, they're, they're genuinely happy for him, which is something you don't see often in sports. But yeah, I mean, you look at that now.

• 19:26Bill Simmons?

  And cause they know they, but he was in the worst situation for one of the worst franchises. And I don't think they blame him. Also, he grew, the beard thing I think was a great move by him.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 19:36Bill Simmons?

  I feel like it did change his demeanor. Something seems cooler about him, but yeah, yeah, he's, he's going to be in the mix now. So, um, I want to save Dallas for a little bit later. So Indianapolis,

• 19:52Bill Simmons?

  where do you have them in the AFC right now after this trade? Like if you had like the gun to your head AFC Super Bowl pick, how many teams would you have to list before you got to them?

• 20:03Speaker 01

  All right. So definitely the Chiefs, definitely the Bills.

• 20:09Bill Simmons?

  I have both of those as well.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  I think I would still have the Ravens in there. I know it's a long shot.

• 20:15Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  To get to the Super Bowl? Cause we're talking ceiling here. We're not talking about regular season wins or, yeah, I think the Ravens have a higher ceiling than the Colts. I mean, I don't know if that's controversial or not.

• 20:26Bill Simmons?

  Gone that far. I had Denver over them.

• 20:31Bill Simmons?

  Only because of the defense. I am, I am. Um, and there's a little bit of a horseshoe stuff with them. I thought when they played, the teams were even and I actually thought Denver should have won.

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  New England, I would not have over them just because I think New England has some real holes like to. What?

• 20:50Speaker 01

  I mean, are you sure you're trying to be like, you, you might be leaning too much anti Homer here? I feel like I don't think anyone's ever told you that on a, on a, I might, I think I would have the Patriots over the Colts.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, we have, May is a better player than anyone on the Colts, except for Taylor would be the case, but I, the, the hits that he's taken the last three weeks, this is all I talk about on my Pat's threads. He's 17 sacks in the last three weeks and six in the last two. And I thought Atlanta really, really pushed him around and gotten his, you know, I thought they made it really difficult for him. I'm really worried about the injury possibility with them. I don't think they have a lot of depth. But this schedule, they might be able to get a two seed and, and be that team that we all look at. And they're like, you know, underdogs in a round two home playoff game because nobody believes it's legitimate, which would be great. I would take that right now.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. Vrabel has won as an underdog before in the playoffs. I think, you know,

• 21:47Bill Simmons?

  Unbelievable.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  I would trust Drake May. I mean, the other thing with Daniel Jones, and I, I feel like I'm really, I'm going to, you know, Colts fan, sorry. But he's never gotten through a season and played well and been healthy the entire, I mean, he, he has a very long injury history as well. So that's far from a guarantee. So I think I would go Bills, Chiefs, Ravens. And I think I would have the Patriots ahead of the Colts.

• 22:11Bill Simmons?

  Wow. I would go,

• 22:15Bill Simmons?

  I'd go, uh, Bills, Chiefs, one A, one B in some order. I want to see more, but that they're, they have to be the top two.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:24Bill Simmons?

  I'd go Denver three.

• 22:27Bill Simmons?

  I think I'd go Indy four, New England five.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 22:30Bill Simmons?

  I Baltimore has too much room for error with the way they've constructed their season. Any other injury and, and they might not even, plus you have Pittsburgh who just has, it's the Pittsburgh's this year's horseshoe up the ass team. Right? And the Steelers fans both know it, but then also get mad and, and say, what do you mean? It's like, all right, we had 11 turnovers forced against the Colts and Pats. Like that's unusual. Let's all agree that that's unusual. Like punts hitting a punt returner. That doesn't happen with other teams. It's just you guys. So I, so I'd probably have the Steelers seventh. Out of that crew.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:08Bill Simmons?

  And then Chargers are a cross off. The Chargers traded for a tackle from the Saints today. I think less to try to win the title and more to just make sure Justin Herbert doesn't get killed.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:19Bill Simmons?

  That was my takeaway on that trade.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think they can with, I mean, you lose two offensive tackles. And if you look at their numbers this year, when Joe Alt has been on the field or off the field, I mean, it turns them from like a, the sixth ranked offense to like the 23rd ranked offense. So I just don't think they can withstand that. So I mean, yeah, I'm with you. I just, it is. Now, I was slow on Darnold last year. I was slow on the Vikings, but it is just very hard for me to get to a point.

• 23:46Bill Simmons?

  They lost.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  I guess so. Yeah. But it's, I mean, Daniel Jones is going to beat Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes in a play, or even Lamar Jackson in a playoff game, that Colts team?

• 23:57Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 23:59Bill Simmons?

  I was trying in my head to, to look at Houston every year, as you know, because we, we both studied the same stuff. There's always the second half jump team. That's like two and six, three and five, and they make the jump. And I thought Houston had a real case to do that with, with the defense they have and getting, you know, getting their receivers healthy, et cetera, et cetera. That loss last week made me so mad. I'm still mad about it. I still can't believe the game management. And I really worry about, I think the coaching stuff has, has been really dicey with them. And I think people have just, because they made the playoffs the first year, everybody's like, right? Remember we were, we were celebrating Ryan's and Bobby Slowik. Bobby Slowik's not there anymore.

• 24:40Bill Simmons?

  And Ryan's, the, the stuff he did on Sunday, I just was, I thought it was really, really concerning. Like that get to overtime, you're not going 60 yards with Davis Mills in 70 seconds to kick a field goal. Like Davis Mills has done nothing for two hours. And to not read that, I just thought, right? Really made me, made me a turn on them.

• 25:02Speaker 01

  And then you zoom out. If you're a defensive head coach, your biggest hire is can you find an offensive coordinator?

• 25:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  He's, you know, he didn't have it the first time. The second, and then personnel wise, I mean, their offensive line is still terrible. So I'm with you. I've been holding, you know, my Ringer 107 record is so bad. If you take out my Texans picks, I swear I'm 500.

• 25:22Bill Simmons?

  They're killing you.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  I mean, I lost on them every single week. But yeah, their defense is so good. I still like Stroud, even though he's developed bad habits. But yeah, last week's loss, now he's got the concussion. I think you're right that it's probably too much has happened with them.

• 25:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. All right. We'll take a break and then let's talk Dallas. The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Thursday night football continues to deliver and FanDuel is keeping the energy up with their $2 million Thursday night football jackpot. You heard me. Place an anytime touchdown score bet using your profit boost. And if your player scores the first or last touchdown in the game, you earn a share of 2 million in bonus bets. So for this game, Vegas versus Denver, I'm feeling RJ Harvey. Yeah, I think RJ Harvey, second half of the season, rookie running back, something good with him. So you can check out RJ Harvey's touchdown bet.

• 26:19Bill Simmons?

  You can head to FanDuel.com/BS to download the app and get started. FanDuel, an official sportsbook partner of the NFL. Must be 21 plus, present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in, must apply profit boost token on select market. Prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct first or last TD pick. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bet which expires 21 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Every football season, the same thing happens.

• 27:03Bill Simmons?

  The game somehow makes everybody really hungry. Quarterback scrambles clearly a sign for breakfast burritos. Yeah. Turnover suddenly deserted 2:00 PM doesn't sound so crazy. Wing formations, well, those can only mean buffalo wings as if they're ever not in play. Even the goalposts start looking suspiciously like french fries. It's almost like football is sending a message. To eat more food. Yeah, the good news Uber Eats makes those cravings easy to satisfy with game day deals all season long. From wings and pizza to chips, drinks, and even last minute grocery runs. Don't sleep on those. You'll find savings on all your favorites delivered straight to your door. Order now on Uber Eats. All right, the Dallas Cowboys.

• 27:47Bill Simmons?

  I'm proud of us that we didn't lead with them. Maybe one of the only football podcasts or shows that didn't lead with Dallas. Just kudos. Fist pump for us. Dallas is drunk. This is one of the worst. You can make a case for the Indy trade. I still didn't like it. If we were doing grades, I'd be in the C minus, D plus range. This Dallas trade is fucking bonkers. This is like a crazy NBA trade from the 2000s. If I was a Cowboys fan, my head would be doing 360s. You're 3-5-1. You have no chance to do anything in the playoffs. What are you doing?

• 28:25Speaker 01

  You should be absolutely livid. So here's the, you add it all up and here's what the Cowboys essentially traded. If you add up the Parsons trade. So they traded Micah Parsons and a second for Quinnon Williams, Kenny Clark, and a first. Plus they get some cap space and money. So essentially they move up from the second round to the first round and swap Parsons for Quinnon Williams and Kenny Clark. And though, let's not forget this, they lost games this year because they didn't have Micah Parsons. And so now you're in a hole here. They don't know.

• 29:01Bill Simmons?

  And you're giving away this year's pick that you made worse because you traded Michael Parsons, basically.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 29:07Bill Simmons?

  Congratulations on that. That's, you've made history.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  And the 2027 pick, by the way, nice move by the Jets. This is according to the reports out there, is the higher of their pick or the Packers' pick. So like if Jordan Love goes down with an injury next year and the Packers have a bad season, like you get a little bit of optionality there with that as well. And who knows what the Cowboys are gonna be.

• 29:29Bill Simmons?

  Wait a second, can you say that again? I didn't see this. This is a new wrinkle?

• 29:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a new wrinkle. So the 2027 first round pick that goes to the Jets as part of this Quinnon Williams trade, the Jets get the higher of the Cowboys pick or the Packers pick. So that's a nice move there by the Jets that just if you like, you know, who if Dak Prescott has an injury next year, if Jordan Love has an injury and one of those teams goes really bad, now all of a sudden you have an even higher pick. So can I tell you, do you know how many sacks Quinnon Williams has this year?

• 30:05Bill Simmons?

  Three?

• 30:06Speaker 01

  One. He has one sack, he has three quarterback hits, and he ranks 90th in the NFL in pressures. Now, I'm not trying to kill him. I think he's a very good run stopper. I think he's a very good defensive tackle. I am not giving up a first and then a second with flexa, you know, or a second and then a first with flexibility for Quinnon Williams months after I traded away Micah Parsons. Just unbelievable mismanagement.

• 30:37Bill Simmons?

  These Jets trades are so crazy. As you were recounting what they got in my head, they got two firsts for Quinn Williams because this day was so crazy.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:46Bill Simmons?

  But, uh, yeah, that, wow. The 27 draft, everyone's saying is so loaded. So what, all right, you're in the room with Jerry Jones. How do you stop him from doing this? What's your case?

• 31:06Speaker 01

  I mean, I have, I have no idea how you stop him from doing this. I would have stopped him from doing the Micah Parsons trail, or I would have tried my hardest. Like, I would have, that, that one, I would have gone to the point where I'm like locking us in the room or taking away his keys or, or grabbing his cell phone.

• 31:23Bill Simmons?

  Taking his cell phone reception.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Whatever I need to do, getting him another drink and just saying, Jerry, let's, let's sleep on it and talk about it tomorrow here. But then to come back, I mean, he's been foreshadowing this for weeks and months now, where he has done his weekly radio appearances and been like, well, don't sleep on us, you know, trading one of these picks for a player. We're, we're going to improve that defense. And it's like, all right, if the right deal comes along, go ahead and do that. But I would not have done it for this deal in a season where you just lost on Monday night and looked terrible and are 3-5-1. So you're essentially doing this for what, next season now? Or you think you're making a run this season? I don't get it at all.

• 32:02Bill Simmons?

  That's the key point is you were terrible last night.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:06Bill Simmons?

  By the way, this trade's probably still sitting there in February or March.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 32:11Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 32:13Bill Simmons?

  Why not just?

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:14Bill Simmons?

  Just, just wait. What are you guys doing?

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  They were so bad last night. We had Brissette last year in the Patriots.

• 32:25Bill Simmons?

  He, first of all, couldn't really move. He was so bad that it was a whole conundrum with the Pats fans, like, do we throw Drake May in even though we can't block? And just hope he survives the year over having to watch another Brissette game? And then I don't know what's happened to him in Arizona, maybe the offense is better, but he demolished Dallas last night.

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:46Bill Simmons?

  Right? And that was, they were not one Quinn Williams away from, oh, this game would have been totally different if we had been able to control the middle line. Guys were wide open all over the place. They were doing whatever they wanted offensively. So.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Bill Simmons?

  This is just like, honestly, it's like, it's like deranged old man behavior.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  It is. It is.

• 33:06Bill Simmons?

  It's a, it's a kind of thing like they, like when you're watching TV shows and they have like the old guy owns the, the oil bear and the 85 year old grandpa. And it's like, wow, he still has the car keys to the business, but we gotta figure out how to get away from him. That's where we are now with this guy. And he, and he won't turn down an interview with anybody. Like he invited Stephen A. Smith. He's doing a live Sirius show. It's like, what are you doing interviews about? You guys haven't, haven't been, made a Super Bowl in 35 years.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Listen, I'll give him credit. He's good for content and he knows the content waves, you know? He was foreshadowing that he was gonna make a trade and then everyone's waiting and they trade for Logan Wilson, the linebacker who can't get on the field for the worst defense in the NFL. And the Bengals, and you're like, wait a minute, was this the trade he was actually foreshadowing? So he did make a splashy trade eventually. So nice job with him with the content. They got a lot of headlines in the off season with Parsons. They got a lot of TV segments. So I guess if you throw all of that into the trade, along with the picks, maybe it comes out a little bit more even in his eyes.

• 34:11Bill Simmons?

  This is a good example of, let's remove the second round pick. Would you trade your first, and it's the higher pick between the Cowboys and Packers, for Quinnon Williams? I don't know I would even do that if I was 3-5-1. I'm just waiting until March now, right?

• 34:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that you could at least consider. That wouldn't be unreasonable. He's 28 years old. He's under contract. I think he's like a top 5, top 10 defensive tackle. So you could at least talk me into that making some sense, but it's not a no-brainer. It's not a home run. And now you threw in the second round pick as well.

• 34:45Bill Simmons?

  The rest of the league must love having Jerry Jones in the NFL allowed to make trades. Did you have the Cowboys as a playoff team before the year?

• 34:57Speaker 01

  I did before the Micah Parsons trade.

• 35:00Bill Simmons?

  Pre-Parsons trade?

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, then post-Parsons trade I didn't. I had him out after the trade.

• 35:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, they're gonna be really bad. Their schedule after this Raiders game, Eagles, Chiefs, Lions, Vikings, Chargers are all on the docket.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah.

• 35:20Bill Simmons?

  So if you're the Jets, like, kudos to the Jets fans. Now you have teams to root against, right? You have these extra draft picks. You can throw yourself into the 2026 draft. It doesn't really matter anymore if you go 1-16.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:38Bill Simmons?

  I guess the one thing is they weren't able to trade Breece Hall, which I thought was surprising. And, you know, they wanted a third-round pick for him, I guess. I did think about it for the Pats. I wouldn't have done it, but if the price was a fourth-round pick, I would have done it.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I thought the Chiefs. I mean, I was doing fake trades on the Ringer NFL Show, and I'm like a fourth that maybe can turn into a third if he does certain things.

• 35:59Bill Simmons?

  If you make like the AFC title game, it's a third-rounder, yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't really understand playing hardball with that. Again, he's a free agent at the end of the season. So if you're not bringing him back, you see what the best deal is, and you just take the best deal rather than say, no, we're holding, because you're holding out. And now you got nothing for him. And now he's probably walking at the end of the season.

• 36:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, I don't think they wanted to trade him in division. I'm trying to think for the NFC teams. None of the contenders really would have needed him, right? Just go through. I can't find a single one that would have wanted him. So that means you're looking at the AFC. And you look at the top AFC teams. I just don't think any, the Pats were really the only hope for them unless they were looking at the Chargers. And if you're the Chargers, like what, you know, you now that you, the Chargers lost both their tackles. They're not making the Super Bowl. They lost two of the best five guys in their team. So they're out and then you go through. Yeah, it's a weird one. Um, what did you think about, you know, it wasn't like a huge price, but Jacksonville getting

• 37:00Bill Simmons?

  Jacoby Myers? I was just thinking like, the amount of picks and money that they've thrown at running back and receiver to try to show that Trevor Lawrence can be a franchise guy. It's kind of staggering.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  It, I was unmoved, I guess would be the kind way to, uh, to put that with Jacoby Myers. Yeah. I mean, he didn't give up much. You know, I think they gave up a fourth and a sixth. He's okay. It's just, yeah, that doesn't move the needle for me. Travis Hunter's injured.

• 37:26Bill Simmons?

  He's okay and the Jags are okay.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Jags are, I mean, the Jags are such a dumb team. It just feels like they can't get through a drive without doing something absurd, whether it's a penalty, a dropped pass, a missed Trevor Lawrence throw.

• 37:38Bill Simmons?

  Their red zone stuff is the best.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Oh my God. One of the most entertaining things about the season so far.

• 37:42Bill Simmons?

  When they're inside the tent, it almost feels like you're entering like the matrix. My favorite trade was Shaheed. I thought, I thought the Seahawks had a real chance to make the Super Bowl even, uh, before Sunday night because of their defense and the way they can throw the ball and they can block better than people think. And, uh, what happened to the Niners, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And adding Shaheed with the way that, that, that Darnold's been throwing the ball and how good Smith and Jigba's been. And then they have Horton too, Cup. Nobody knows if he'll be available in January.

• 38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:19Bill Simmons?

  But Shaheed is like, that's like a real dude that could have a huge impact for them. It fits what Darnold's strengths are. I really, I really like that trade. Third rounder, I think.

• 38:27Speaker 01

  Love it. Fourth and a fifth. So they didn't even have to give up, yeah, fourth and a fifth. And I think it makes sense for the reasons, right now, Jackson Smith and Jigba has 948 receiving yards. No other receiver on their team has more than 293. I mean, that's

• 38:43Bill Simmons?

  Shocking when somebody else makes a catch.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Shocking. Yeah.

• 38:46Bill Simmons?

  You're like 85. Who, wait, who's that? I forgot. What guy is that?

• 38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Shaheed played for their offensive coordinator Clint Kubiak in New Orleans. So it's like, all right, he's going to know the offense. He's going to be a scheme fit. I thought that was one that made made a lot of sense. They just kind of need another pass catcher there. So that might've been the best trade of the trade deadline day.

• 39:08Bill Simmons?

  Best value, certainly. I think if you're giving a fourth for a guy who can swing your playoff destiny a little bit. I mean, same thing for Jalen Phillips that the Eagles got for your team. I know you already talked about it, but you know, I don't think he was playing that great. He certainly wasn't jumping out of the TV for the Dolphins, but you, you know, how he always stockpiles all these extra things. And then he can just kind of give one away and take a flyer on people. But you, you were okay with that trade.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought that was a good trade. Like my whole thing with trade deadline is if you have a realistic shot to win the Super Bowl, I am fine with you being as aggressive as you want to be. And Phillips has played for Vic Fangio before. It's just a rental. You don't owe him money after this season. I think when teams get into trouble is when they talk themselves into stuff and then get really aggressive. And then you get to the spring and you're like, man, why did we give away that draft pick? Or you get to next year and you're like, why did we give away that draft pick? But you know, FanDuel has the Eagles as the favorites in the NFC right now. I was looking earlier today. So they haven't had those like season ending injuries that some of these other teams have had. Like their guys who have been injured are all coming back. So yeah, that was a, I mean, their pass rush hasn't been very good.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  So you add a player, you take a swing and you see if he can help you.

• 40:24Bill Simmons?

  Eagles plus 380, Rams plus 440, which I think is really surprising. I would not have guessed that they had the second best odds. Lions plus 450, Packers five to one, Seahawks six to one, Tampa 11 to one. I think the Seahawks should have the second best odds. I think they're the second best team in the NFC right now behind the Eagles. The Eagles have the pedigree. They have just a shitload of talent. They've been there before, like we know what we're getting with them. I think Seattle's really good.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Those five are in the top tier. I, I think I changed my mind every single day, but yeah, I mean, you watch that Seahawks game from Sunday night and you're just like, man, they, they are explosive on offense. I trust their defense against great quarterbacks. Like if they had to face Matthew Stafford, and I think they play in a couple of weeks here, so we'll see. But like, they're gonna have a plan and they're not gonna get blown out. I think their defense is too good to get blown out. So their offense is gonna stay in it. Yeah, those are, it's gonna come down to just like, all right, who's healthy in January, but those to me are the five teams that can actually come out of the NFC.

• 41:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, one thing I like to look at, especially around now is, are you in every game? Have you played shit games? Have, what's your record in either war games and stuff like that? The Patriots, I know that the schedule, by the way, is 16th strength of schedule. It's not quite as bad as everyone thinks, but they've played six shit teams. Patriots have only been, how many times do you think they've been behind by 10 points this year?

• 41:51Speaker 01

  Behind? I can't remember in that Raiders game.

• 41:54Bill Simmons?

  10 points, not a lot.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Once?

• 41:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Raiders game, week one.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Raiders game, okay.

• 41:58Bill Simmons?

  They were down exactly by 10. Seattle's another one. Like Seattle has two losses, but had a chance to win both of those games. Like they haven't really played a shit game. They haven't been behind. Like you look at the Broncos, the Broncos have been behind by like 14, 10, 18, like, like they, and they've climbed back, but I think it's, I feel the same way in basketball. I think it's a bad sign when you're just way behind in games. And I look at, uh, I look at Seattle versus like the Packers, where the Packers have just played a couple of shit games.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:31Bill Simmons?

  The Browns game was a shit game. The one last week, that Panthers game, that was like a, just a shit performance. And it makes me not trust them, but I think that's the Matt LaFleur era in a nutshell. You just kind of never know when their shit game's coming.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. The Packers are the NBA team that, regular season, you're like, and then you're like, they think they can flip the switch in the playoffs, which we, you, you know, there's, there's NBA teams that, but the Packers like haven't done anything to warrant that. That's my thing with them. It's like, if they were defending Super Bowl champs and this was happening, or they always get there and you're like, oh, we've seen this before, like the Chiefs. You're like, all right, you know, we kind of know where this team's gonna be, but they haven't done that, yet they still just play with their food for a half every single game. Like they, and I think, I think they're still really good. I think they have a high ceiling, but they are a pretty frustrating team to watch.

• 43:18Bill Simmons?

  The crafting's massive.

• 43:20Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 43:21Bill Simmons?

  I, I just couldn't believe that. Not to mention, I had him on a couple of fantasy teams, but uh, I just thought he was really blossoming as like, oh, it's third and five. You know where they're going. He's, he'd be, was really becoming one of those guys in real time. And I'm not sure, maybe there's more Matthew Golden now. I don't, I'm not sure where they're going on third and eight. I think it's always a great thing to think about. I think this is the thing I worry about with Buffalo. Like in a playoff game, we're down three, there's six minutes left. Where am I going on third and eight? If Josh can't like do something, who is the guy? Is it, is it Kincaid? Is it Cook coming out of the backfield? Who is your guy in this spot? The Pats have at least found digs, right?

• 44:03Bill Simmons?

  The Chiefs, they, they always have Kelsey and now they have Rice back.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:07Bill Simmons?

  But uh, but yeah, Green Bay, I don't, I don't really know who that guy is.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who, who's gonna get you a bucket? It's man coverage. They're not playing soft. It's third and long. I'm with you. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know that the Packers do have that guy, you know? So, so that's a big, I thought Kraft was the best tight end in the NFL. I mean, he was a beast. Like now Brock Bowers, I can be like, all right, Brock Bowers now that he came back, he was ridiculous.

• 44:30Bill Simmons?

  That Brock Bowers performance on Sunday, he did in week one, got hurt, took eight weeks off and he was, I mean, that was one of the best games anyone's played all year. They were like, they were just trying to take him out and they couldn't even take him out. They were just moving him around, doing different things.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Very uncommon for a tight end can just like lift your entire offense, but I thought Kraft had the belt before Bowers came back. And so you're losing. I mean, any of these contenders, you lose like your go-to guy in the passing game. I think it's a big, big deal.

• 45:00Bill Simmons?

  So who do you have in the NFC?

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I still am sticking with my preseason pick, which was the Eagles getting back to the uh, Super Bowl, especially when you look at their division and how it's going. Like they're not gonna be needing to sweat that out down the stretch. So I think they're in a good spot just from a health standpoint, but I changed my mind every week on that. I had the Packers last week or two weeks ago. So who knows?

• 45:22Bill Simmons?

  I had the Packers before the year. The Kraft thing.

• 45:28Bill Simmons?

  I want to see what happens with Seattle over these next two, three weeks because people now know they're good.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:34Bill Simmons?

  Right? This is they're in a different space now. This is like, hey, this is a real team. We got to get up for this game and I want to see how they handle it. But the Darnold thing was been a home run. We didn't know if that was like Darnold versus Gino. How's this going to work out? Is Darnold damaged goods? He was so bad and Darnold's doing great. They can block.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:55Bill Simmons?

  The defense is probably, it has to be in the top three, top four, depending on what's going on with your defense, top three or top four. So I don't know. If I had to pick from a value standpoint right now, I would probably do Denver with Seattle, which is, uh, what do you think that is? Denver versus Seattle in the Super Bowl?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 46:20Bill Simmons?

  Just for a value pick.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  Plus, just gotta be, man, 900? Am I close?

• 46:29Bill Simmons?

  It's 50 to one.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. It's not even close.

• 46:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, put the Eagles in there instead with Denver and that's 36 to one. You put Seattle with, let's say Buffalo, 25 to one.

• 46:47Bill Simmons?

  But I think Seattle, I think they really have a chance to get like a two seed. And if they get a two seed and they get at least that first home game and then the two, three, they have two home games and then defense travels and they go into Philly potentially. And I, I think they'd have a chance, but then you'd have Darnold on the road on grass, which, you know, after interception three, you're like, why did I bet on this?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. The, the biggest thing with Seattle is like, the way they want to play offensively is they get like all the tight ends and the fullback on the field on early downs. And then you bring on your big, and then they create the, they do play action and then they hit you with explosive plays downfield. So my question with them is like, if it's the fourth quarter and they're down by 10 and the defense is like, screw you, you can run the ball if you want to, we're not loading up to stop the run. Can they do it? They've only attempted 48 passes this season when trailing in a game. It's by far the fewest of any team in the NFL. So I'm not saying they can't do it. Darnold has looked great, but that to me is kind of what I want to see here in the weeks ahead. Like I said, they get the Rams in a couple of weeks. They get some of these opponents that maybe we'll see them in that kind of game script.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  But they've looked legit. There's, there's really nothing to knock about the Seahawks so far.

• 47:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, and now with Shaheed, who knows, might tilt the field a little. All right, before we go, give us, give us 48 seconds on VJ Edgecombe and what it's meant to you these past six weeks.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  I haven't been this into a Sixers team in 25 years and people laugh at me. They're like, what are you talking about? The last eight years, 10 years haven't been that bad. And I'm like, I've never, just the watchability where I'm like, when do they play next? And like adding, okay, they're there at seven. I'm going to pod it this time. I'll catch it on DVR. That type of energy that you have with a team that you love, hasn't been there for me in 25 years. I knew he was springy. I knew he was athletic. I knew he was competitive. The basketball IQ on this guy, he is making unbelievable passes and just mentally sharp plays. And his teammates love him and you say like, everything about him is just so exciting. So this is, yeah, they get McCain back later, I think on, on Tuesday night here.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  So the best part for me is that the whole, is Embiid playing? Is he? It doesn't matter. Like he, oh, Embiid's going to the locker room? Cool. I'm still locked in and I can't wait to watch the second half with this team. So I have been just energized by this team this season. I don't care if they win the championship.

• 49:10Bill Simmons?

  01 Iverson.

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was at my favorite team of all time.

• 49:13Bill Simmons?

  This excited. Okay.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Senior in high school where I was just like.

• 49:16Bill Simmons?

  Through the 2012 when they almost snuck into the, what'd they go? Most Eastern Finals with the Derrick Rose.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Doug Collins.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  That was fun.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  That was fun.

• 49:25Bill Simmons?

  All the process, 2018, when they lost to the Celtics.

• 49:30Bill Simmons?

  2019, losing in the last second to Toronto, no?

• 49:34Speaker 01

  I wasn't, listen, 17, I was into it because it was like for the first time, they now have a, you know, they're finally back in the playoffs. But this again is just the, hey, it's a, it's a Tuesday. It's a Tuesday in January, they're playing the Hornets at 7 o'clock. Do I want to watch that or do I want to, you know, watch, catch up on Landman with my wife? No, I'm watching the Sixers, so we'll watch Landman. That kind of energy is what really has me pumped.

• 49:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, don't turn your back on Landman.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  No.

• 49:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Maxi and BJ, it doesn't, none of it, none of it, nothing else matters. You have your two guys, you'll be able to build around them. Edgecombe's going to be in this contract for, I don't know, three, four years before they have to extend it. And, you know, if I'm Utah, if I'm a Utah fan and I could have potentially traded Markkinen, taken Paul George back, but gotten that third pick and that third, three and five and gotten Edgecombe, that one would be haunting me because I, I wonder if that was possible.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 50:30Bill Simmons?

  Because Darryl was definitely shopping that three pick, trying to look at who was around. And, you know, anyway, it all worked out. I'm with you, I, when League Pass is on, I'm like, oh, the Sixers are on, this will be fun. Like that, they've just turned into one of those teams where I was like, I hated watching them the last couple of years. I couldn't stand it. There was just everything about it, the energy, the crowd was off. Now, now it feels like a Philly crowd again, like they really like these guys, so.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Listen, I was Googling some eight game plans earlier today, Bill, you know, my daughter wants to go. Yeah, I'm excited, yeah, I can't wait.

• 51:06Bill Simmons?

  All right, you can hear Sheil on the Ringer NFL Show and on the Philly Special, and I'm going to pop on Ringer NFL at some point over the next couple of weeks, maybe after, if the Pats have a good win, I might, that might be my virgin appearance, but good to see you. Thanks for coming up.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Can't wait, talk to you soon.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes and details. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything.

• 52:06Bill Simmons?

  And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, as promised, this is the conversation that Sean Fantasy and Ben Lathan and I had near the end of a rewatchable taping on Monday that went for so long, we just decided to run it here. And it's about movies and creativity and what drives people and all kinds of things. And it goes all over the place. And we all had a really good time arguing about it. And we just thought, you know what? Let's run it here on the BS podcast. So that's what you're about to see. We taped this on Monday.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  I was thinking about this. If this movie came out today, this exact movie, would people think it was good or terrible? I would argue probably people would not like this movie if it came out. The exact same movie comes out tonight. I feel like it would get panned.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  It would be a streaming movie for sure. Right. Yeah. It would, it just wouldn't go into theaters, a movie like this. I guess you could say that the most recent Austin Butler movie, Caught Stealing, is like, kind of like this movie. Where it's just like a crime drama with a movie star at the middle of it with some kind of gnarly incidents, but.

• 53:16Bill Simmons?

  I mean, this movie cost seventy-five billion dollars.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 04

  So this is my thing.

• 53:20Speaker 02

  But is the bar higher? Are the stakes higher now? Like, why would this movie, if it's the exact same movie, why wouldn't it work now?

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Well, it's not that it wouldn't work. It's about why you, to me, to me, and Sean could probably give a more thoughtful answer. But when movies like this are back in theaters, to me, that will be when that experience is back. Like, I look at films like this, cool ideas executed by really talented people for everyone to see. But you have to get up and go to the movies.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Well, it's no IP. It's slightly smaller in terms of like what it's saying, I guess.

• 53:54Speaker 04

  But at the same time, it's, there's no IP, but this movie has a gigantic movie star, a legendary director, a big budget. There are reasons to go and see something like this. But as long as movies that, this movie would exist on streaming now, I think that's kind of the problem, at least.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Well, one of them, probably, I would guess, the single most popular genre of movie on this show over the years. If you had to do like a data analysis of every genre, it's probably crime thriller, right?

• 54:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Action thriller.

• 54:22Speaker 03

  That's one of, yeah, that's one of your favorite kinds of movies.

• 54:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:25Speaker 03

  Those movies are really fun to talk about.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  To talk about, because they always have nips.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  And those are movies specifically that don't work now, that you don't see coming out.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  They also all have like a hint of kind of being funny because there's some cheesiness in them.

• 54:38Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  And that's completely gone now. And again, I don't know why that is.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  De Palma has a big sense of humor. He doesn't do comedy ever, but he has a really good sense of humor about characterization.

• 54:47Speaker 04

  What's the specific thing about the action thriller that you feel like audiences aren't responding to?

• 54:52Speaker 03

  I think it's because it's just in, it's in the middle. And so there's no, it's like, this movie costs a lot of money to make. It's shot in like an arena with hundreds of extras. It's got a big set piece with this rolling ball coming down the hill. Like, it has the trappings of a big movie.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  And this would probably be panned as a movie that was not profitable. Because it made a little bit more than its budget, but it probably ultimately lost money. Although maybe with the DVD sales, it didn't.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  That was, that's another thing.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  Totally. But now, if this happened now, and it was a seventy million dollar movie that made like ninety-five, the variety would write about how, no, this movie lost money.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Not profitable for De Palma.

• 55:25Bill Simmons?

  Maybe we should just shoot. Variety to the fiery pits of the sun. How about that idea?

• 55:29Speaker 03

  I'm definitely sick of reading those stories.

• 55:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Why do those stories exist?

• 55:33Speaker 04

  Because.

• 55:33Bill Simmons?

  Why didn't they do that with the Dodgers? Like, the Dodgers won their back-to-back World Series, but they spent $330 billion and they didn't make their money back. Fuck off.

• 55:41Speaker 04

  Well, so this is the deal. Number one, and obviously you guys know I've played into this. I think that the economics of whatever it is have become such a part of what it is that we do. When people started reporting, you know, do you remember when striptease came out? One of the biggest stories about striptease was how much money she got paid to do the movie.

• 56:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:04Speaker 04

  They gave her like $12 million or something like that. I remember when Selena came out, it was like the first Latina actress to make a million dollars. That started us talking about the salaries of the actors and what it meant to be a $20 million actor. Started us on.

• 56:19Bill Simmons?

  Will Smith in this.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  I think Will Smith and Jim Carrey were a big part of that in the 90s. And then you also had movies like Bonfire of the Vanities and Waterworld that were like, the budgets were constant points of conversation.

• 56:28Bill Simmons?

  The whole infrastructure of people writing and reporting this for the first time in a real way.

• 56:32Speaker 04

  They pre-did this with Titanic. The Titanic was a very troubled production.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  We talked about that in the pod.

• 56:37Speaker 04

  A lot, a lot of money, but.

• 56:39Bill Simmons?

  Everyone thought it was gonna be a bust.

• 56:40Speaker 04

  But that has evolved into this entire section of discussing movies that is about how profitable the movies are. And obviously, people are listening and they know I've talked about this stuff based upon the talent and the budget and all of that stuff.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  Well, the thing that you hear now, you hear, maybe not normal people, but just general movie fans say things like, well, when you factor in the marketing, it's actually 70 million more. And it's like, you don't have to know that. Like, that's not important for you to know as a movie fan. I'm, I talk about box office all the time on the pods. I do think it is important because it tends to dictate what kinds of movies get made. So it's valuable to kind of understand why movies are working and not working. But the race to be like, this movie failed after six weeks, I always find to be really, really strange. It doesn't matter who's making it.

• 57:23Bill Simmons?

  It doesn't acknowledge the infrastructure we have now for movies, where some people just wait till they're on Amazon or wherever.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  And there's no visibility into VOD.

• 57:31Bill Simmons?

  Or they want to buy a Blu-ray or whatever.

• 57:33Speaker 04

  But. For variety, or for whatever publication is doing it, they're doing it because it incites.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  It stokes rage, yeah. It stokes rage.

• 57:42Speaker 04

  Like, it incites people.

• 57:43Bill Simmons?

  The sports media is no different. It's all the same shit. It's like, what can get a headline and traffic and people to read this?

• 57:48Speaker 04

  The thing about the budgets for these teams, they're different because of just the amount of joy that people get from the team itself. There's always gonna be a conversation, particularly in baseball, about how much the rosters cost and all of that stuff like that. But if a movie is a dud, and it costs $300 million or $250 million, like one of these Marvel movies, there's just a different experience that people have.

• 58:12Bill Simmons?

  But why do people care? Like, I care in sports when the Red Sox get, you know, some pitcher for $180 million and the guy sucks. And it's like, well, that affects me because we only had like four big money spots to spend, and we fucked this one up. I'm mad.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  Okay, I have a question.

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't care if Paul Thomas Anderson spent $100 million on a movie that we all liked.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  I, I, I, I know you're mad, but it's, to me, that was the same thing as Kugler. I felt exactly the same about both of those experiences. The Dodgers thing I wanted to ask you about, though, is the one thing with this Dodgers title is that this, I could be wrong about this, but I think this is the first World Series champion in which the 10 best players on the team were bought.

• 58:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Speaker 03

  They did homegrown Will Smith and Max Muncy, but every star on that team is a free agent, or they traded for him. Now, that obviously reveals that the Dodgers are willing to spend on other teams or not. But does it, in sports, does it change your mind at all?

• 59:09Bill Simmons?

  It changed in 92 and 93 with the Blue Jays, ironically. When they got Joe Carter and Jack Morris, and they went and got the best guys from, homegrown guys from other teams. And we were all pissed off. I was pissed off. It's like, well, they didn't do this fair. But now, it's like, this is 30 years of baseball.

• 59:25Speaker 04

  I am chronically and annoyingly in favor of the little guy in all things. Like, to, to the great annoyance of a bunch of people. I get it. The same reason why I, I guess, I criticize the, the big budgets in the movies when the movies aren't profitable is because I'm always thinking about smaller creators. But I will admit this. I will admit this. At a specific time, at the time we're in right now, well, there are so few things that we can actually agree on in terms of things that are good.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 04

  Good art. When you get good art, it shouldn't really matter how much it costs. Because the re- it, it, at this point, there is just, I don't know if people are paying attention to it. There are a lot of great movies that come out. There are a lot of great records that come out. There are a lot of great albums that come out. But the things that really to me seem like truly inspired art, that people are making it and putting their all into it and all of that stuff. It just kind of seems like there's not as much of that that I can connect to as I used to. And I'm not saying that it's, that it's necessarily true that people aren't making those things. I'm saying that there is something to be said, and I thought, I've thought about this after some of the conversations that we've had about one battle after another.

• 1:00:39Speaker 04

  After everybody on set not having to worry about anything other than just cooking. About everybody on set.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Speaker 04

  Just being able to folk, not having to worry about when the money gonna run out. Or like, when you gonna do this, or how you gonna pay, just everybody just worried about, there is something to be said for that. And I, I think that concentrating too much on the financials kind of gets us away from it.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  Cause that was not a conversation, I'm assuming, when Snake Eyes came out. Nobody was like, was this profitable in the same way Babylon, which made like seventy million dollars? And costs probably similar to Snake Eye. That was the only thing. Oh, this movie lost so much money. It flopped. Yes.

• 1:01:13Bill Simmons?

  You know what's interesting though? In movies, this has always been a conversation and in sports it hasn't. Like, I remember when I was a kid inside, I think it was Inside Sports, they ran an article, a cover story about the first million dollar athlete, Nolan Ryan.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:01:29Bill Simmons?

  And it was like the cover and it was like, these guys now make a million dollars. And I remember being a kid like, whoa, that's a lot of money. But it didn't make me think differently of the athletes.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:01:37Bill Simmons?

  But in movies. Talking about whether something costs too much, you go back to like Cleopatra and that era.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:45Bill Simmons?

  Did the Godfather, did this cost too much? Did they make a mistake? Is this gonna bankrupt the studio? This has kind of been the lingo for, I don't know, 70 years?

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  The trades are predicated on driving interest, but with a winners and losers mentality.

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  It's just an angle to talk, to criticize something.

• 1:02:02Bill Simmons?

  And to create panic for, oh, they could be done if this doesn't work.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  We're treading in a dangerous, like, I'm not attacking your territory. But I do think that the era of fandom did create a kind of like us versus them mentality amongst people, mostly online. No, in real life, people aren't like, I like this and I don't like this. But people are very eager to rush to tell, like, people love to tell me that one battle after another is a flop. Because they know that it's my favorite director, my favorite movie of the year, and they want me to make, they want me to feel bad that it didn't make money. And that is a like, the thing that I like is more important and better than the thing that you like. Which is a kind of insidious thing that has happened in culture over time.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  That has to do with the nerds. And it's just a fact. Because I'll just be completely transparent. If you grew up, I'll speak for me. I'll speak for the nerd in me. If you grew up, and for one, and I know that you, we have a similar upbringing as far as this is concerned. If you grew up and you collected over 3,500 comic books, right? And you read them all the time and constantly, constantly, constantly, over and over again. That was something that was supposed to be niche and something, no matter how much people love Superman. But something's supposed to be niche, or something's supposed to be weird, or whatever.

• 1:03:18Speaker 04

  The comic book revolution, the Star Wars IP revolution, all of that stuff was a validation of everything that you did in your youth. And you being able to do that stuff, do that and talk about it and having that go mainstream. I remember, I used to be on TMZ being like, you guys will call us nerds and be like, there's no nerds. The movie made $2 billion, we won, right? And. The, those movies exist, they have to have gigantic budgets. They have to have huge budgets, but they are only validated. Nobody cares about how good, uh, Robert Downey Jr. Was in Avengers Endgame. Those movies are only validated if they make money. So the minute that they don't make money, doesn't matter what, the minute that they don't make money, people shoot at them. People shoot at them.

• 1:04:01Speaker 04

  They go, alright, well, your big special thing that you love or whatever, it flop, nobody cares. Nobody cares, just like they never cared. And then you would just go, okay, well, the thing that you love, it flop, nobody cares. What's the difference? And if the difference is just the, the quality of the art, that's always subjective. That is legitimately, there's, there's, there are very few movies that we can all agree. So that's always subjective. And that comes back to taste, which taste comes back to hierarchy. Which opinions are actually important enough to be deemed important? Which opinions are not important? Which movies matter? Which movies don't? That's a tale as old as time, when you're talking about art.

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Like, we have that same, that's a, that's a Jay-Z versus Talib Kweli conversation. That's, you know what I mean? So like, all of that stuff.

• 1:04:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but what, but how does that explain why anyone would care if Sinners or One Bad After Another spent 25 million dollars more than they should have? Who fucking cares? That's the part I don't get.

• 1:05:01Speaker 04

  The response to the Sinners thing was the fact. The response to the Sinners thing was the fact that at least initially, it seemed as if those two things, those two movies were treated in different ways. Sinners had a gigantic open and the variety headline, or at least what made it to Twitter was,

• 1:05:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:05:19Speaker 04

  this movie opened big, but, uh.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  It's got a long way to go to become profitable.

• 1:05:24Bill Simmons?

  But it was, it was one news piece, though. It was almost like the Lamar Jackson, how one person said, he should be a receiver. And then that just became, everybody said he should be a receiver. It's like, nah, it was one idiot.

• 1:05:35Speaker 04

  But you do understand, though, that a movie that is that connected and that undergirded by a celebration of black culture. Variety, which is by far, to me at least, the most relevant trade, taking that spin on a movie that opened big. It actually opened. It opened big. That for, I'll just be honest with, for, for a black man, you're good, but you're not quite good enough. I'll just say, okay, fuck you guys.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  Bill, the answer to your One Battle thing is, why are people upset? As they're not, not like, they're not, no one gives a shit. And these are like, like the, the point zero zero one percent of people online who are not real people are, are like stoking these flames that don't, every normal person you'd see on the street would be like, I don't even think about movie budgets. How much did it cost? What does that even mean? I liked the movie.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  It's also just a context free of like, uh, uh, recency bias in terms of reflection on what a movie means. One Battle and Sinners are made by the same studio. Like, the profits of Sinners benefits the ability to make more movies like Sinners and One Battle or another. But the, the, the second or third biggest movie of the year is, is, uh, Minecraft, which was also made by Warner Brothers. You make Mine, you don't make Minecraft to make an art film. You make Minecraft to make money so that you can take chances on other films. That is the story of Hollywood. That is what made Hollywood Studios great, is that they had this fine-grained balance between, oh, you gotta make a wrestling picture because people like Wallace Beery movies in the 1930s. They're gonna show up, that's gonna guarantee X number of dollars, so then we can take a chance on something a little bit more audacious with an artist who we think is really interesting.

• 1:07:07Speaker 03

  That is a 100-year-old story. So, if, if on Monday morning, when you're looking at the box office turns, you're like, man, this sucks. One Battle, like, it costs 140 and it's only gonna make 207. Gosh, this could have been way better because you gotta factor in the marketing. It's really disappointing. But that discounts the fact that it's, it's, it exists within a system, in a studio, and that system exists around all these other studios and all these other companies that are thriving right now. So, I, it's just, it's a kind of an incoherent fight that I personally am having every other day. And I'm a little exhausted about, but I also feel complicit in because it just drives the discussion, you know? It really does keep people interested in this stuff in a, in an ugly way.

• 1:07:45Bill Simmons?

  The only time I've ever cared. Is when the studios would spend money on two, this is probably a more two thousands, early two thousand teens thing. They'd have the money to really splurge on like three things. And they were always the wrong three things. And then if they did well, I would monitor that. I'd be like, oh, fuck, we're gonna get more of this shit.

• 1:08:04Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:04Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:05Bill Simmons?

  Like, oh, man, that worked. God damn it.

• 1:08:07Speaker 04

  So, last thing I'll say about this is, obviously, you guys know I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this, right? Because.

• 1:08:15Bill Simmons?

  You?

• 1:08:16Speaker 04

  Fuck, come on, man.

• 1:08:16Speaker 03

  Why?

• 1:08:18Bill Simmons?

  Baggage and bias would be, that's gonna be the next Van podcast.

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  Baggage and bias week on the rewatchable.

• 1:08:23Bill Simmons?

  Baggage and bias for Van Lathan.

• 1:08:25Speaker 04

  I bring a ton of baggage and bias into this.

• 1:08:27Bill Simmons?

  Welcome to Baggage and Bias.

• 1:08:29Speaker 04

  It's facts. And I own that because when they are choosing to overspend on these movies, they never do it with black creators, right? So there's a scratching and a clawing.

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:42Speaker 04

  And it doesn't matter how good you are, what you've made, it's just, there is a, you know, some of that's demographic. Some of that's like, you know, what does it mean to have a four quadrant movie and all of that stuff like that? So what I think is, if we get back to just making cool movies.

• 1:09:00Bill Simmons?

  We're kind of back to that.

• 1:09:01Speaker 04

  Maybe.

• 1:09:02Speaker 03

  I was thinking a little bit about.

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  Twenty-five is a year, I'm gonna think of that.

• 1:09:05Speaker 04

  If we get back to just making cool movies. I'm cool with a truce, but I am completely unconvinced that in any type of way, we're going to see a situation where black art, and art made by people that don't run the town and sit in all of this stuff, is gonna be able to get a hundred and fifty million dollars and go out and not be profitable.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  I think you can point to centers and at least say that's something. That that is a movie that nothing has really happened like that ever before. But the one thing I was thinking of while watching Snake Eyes was, MBJ is kind of at a similar place in his career that Nick Cage was in. You know, he's like in his late thirties, he's kind of done every kind of movie. He's done serious drama, he's done IP spectacle.

• 1:09:52Bill Simmons?

  Sports movie.

• 1:09:53Speaker 03

  He's been at the center of a sports movie. You know, he, he.

• 1:09:56Bill Simmons?

  Legal, legal trial movie.

• 1:09:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's been in the military movie. Like, he's, he really has touched all of the genres that.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  He's tried comedy.

• 1:10:03Bill Simmons?

  Bad rom-com.

• 1:10:04Speaker 03

  Comedy, yes, that's right.

• 1:10:05Speaker 04

  Did that? Well, people don't even fucking remember that movie. Did like, like the.

• 1:10:09Bill Simmons?

  We all agree not to talk about it.

• 1:10:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, people.

• 1:10:10Bill Simmons?

  With our, with our, with our friend.

• 1:10:12Speaker 04

  But what was your point with him, though?

• 1:10:14Speaker 03

  Um, just that a movie like Sinners is a movie that kind of like elevates you out of, I'm a good star into I'm potentially going into a like forever mode like there, there's going to be an awards push for him now, the same way that Cage got his awards push and that let him, he could make pretty much any movie he wanted for seven years in Hollywood after winning and leaving Las Vegas and his decision was, I want to make action spectacle. But you can go in another direction. You don't, you wouldn't have the same clout that you had in the nineties, but it's interesting like the, these guys, the decisions that they make at this point in their career also dictate the future of Hollywood. Like Leo has spent 25 years being like, fuck it. I really like Scorsese. I'm going to get as many Scorsese

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  movies as I made as I possibly can through the absolute center of my career. That has been his primary focus.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  And raise money to make the movies even.

• 1:11:04Speaker 03

  That's the whole story of Wolf of Wall Street is him going out and raising the money to get that movie made so that Scorsese could direct it. So it is also incumbent on the stars who are at their center, center of movies to use their power to make, get cool stuff made and not just be cynical and not just make the same old boring action movie where they reach their quote, you know, like, and it's like, oh, well, I'll do it for Netflix, but I won't do it for Paramount because Netflix will pay my quote and Paramount won't, you know, like they really, you have to sacrifice something to get that thing, no matter whether you're white or black or whatever in Hollywood.

• 1:11:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, look, my, my, like, you're not wrong. For me, I, I, I just look at there being such a contagion inside of the system of that, right? And there isn't, I mean, we could talk about Michael B. Jordan, he's not Leonardo DiCaprio, right? I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio at one point was the star of the biggest movie of all time, right? There are things that factor into this that are different. One thing I do know is this, is that knowing as many people in this town as I do.

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  Oh, I like that in this town.

• 1:12:02Speaker 04

  It's true. That, that are looking to create, all they want is story. There's nothing else. There's no, for, for the majority of these people, there's no agenda. There's no nothing. They have things that are burning and inside of them and they want to be able to tell these stories and they want to tell them sometimes they're going to be easy to understand, sometimes they're going to be. coherent, sometimes they're gonna be great, sometimes they're gonna be bad. Sometimes everybody just wants to get their shit out. And all of these other conversations are wrapped into age old schisms that have existed in America since time immemorial. But we just wanna watch and make movies.

• 1:12:38Speaker 03

  Then.

• 1:12:38Speaker 04

  And that, and that, and that's, and, and, and that to me, sometimes we talk about a lot of other things. But we just want people to be able to make movies and watch movies and all of that shit.

• 1:12:47Speaker 03

  How are you grappling with the fact that perhaps the decline of the superhero movie might be the thing that actually saves original storytelling?

• 1:12:54Speaker 04

  I think everybody, I, I mean.

• 1:12:56Speaker 03

  Like, would you, is that a, is that a trade off that you're willing to take?

• 1:12:59Speaker 04

  Certainly, I think everyone, eh, it doesn't matter what type of movie is being made. The action star that we're talk, that we talked about before, uh, Van Damme, Schwarzenegger, all of those guys, they got market corrected.

• 1:13:11Bill Simmons?

  Segal.

• 1:13:12Speaker 04

  Segal, those guys got, those, those guys got market corrected.

• 1:13:16Bill Simmons?

  Stallone.

• 1:13:16Speaker 04

  They did, they, they, they got market corrected, their genre, their movie making.

• 1:13:21Bill Simmons?

  They were superheroes.

• 1:13:22Speaker 04

  They were superheroes, their movies didn't last forever. So like, we'll, we'll see what is next and we'll see what happens next. I'm good with it.

• 1:13:30Bill Simmons?

  I think, um, it comes down to the same thing as always, writers and directors.

• 1:13:36Speaker 03

  The thing I hear.

• 1:13:36Bill Simmons?

  We always talk about who's the next movie star and do we need more movie stars? And obviously we do, and it's always nice to have them. But if you have the ideas and you have somebody who knows how to make it, you can, you can win 12 games with Alex Smith, basically. To use a Kansas City Chiefs analogy.

• 1:13:53Speaker 03

  That, that is the, in this town, the thing that I hear the most is, who's the filmmaker? Is there a filmmaker who can bring to a story? This sense of event, that's the thing that everybody is looking for is how do you eventize something? That in 1998, maybe didn't necessarily need to be communicated like that. But if you look at what the major studios are doing now, it's like Warner Brothers putting their arms around Coogler and PTA and Zach Craig or this year. If you look at Universal putting their arms around Daniels, Steven Spielberg, Christopher Nolan, Jordan Peele. Like, these are strategies happening inside the studios where they're like.

• 1:14:30Bill Simmons?

  Thankable, awesome guys.

• 1:14:31Speaker 03

  You know, Netflix is going all out for Greta Gerwig. For Narnia, like, that is the move. That's the, and the problem is the thing that you're describing, which is that the studios don't develop the talent like they did in the sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties. They don't let people take shots the same way. You gotta make it for yourself. And then if you get lucky, you get noticed and then you get plunged into the, into the deep end.

• 1:14:51Speaker 04

  Right. Even those guys we're talking about though, those guys had to break the system. Like, th- these, these filmmakers, once again, not a new phenomenon. When you talk about, it doesn't seem like it now, but Lucas Spielberg, De Palma, all of these guys, like, even the generation of actors that came before them, like Hoffman, Nicholson, all of those guys, they had to break a system.

• 1:15:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, they all were, functionally worked in independent cinema.

• 1:15:17Speaker 04

  Right. They had to break a system. And we got to a point to where a lot of this stuff got, there needs to be, if not a breaking of it, but certainly a resetting of it. But like-

• 1:15:28Bill Simmons?

  But people romanticized the seventies, and the seventies were bonkers. If you look at how they made movies back then, then the eighties were basically all cocaine. But the seventies were just like, yeah, here's money. And just like the, I mean, how many books do we have about all the crazy shit that they just let people do? Like, that's not coming back. The eighties aren't coming back. The nineties are probably the closest to where we need to be.

• 1:15:51Speaker 04

  How, how do you mean? What do you mean?

• 1:15:52Bill Simmons?

  Just like, just letting people, letting young filmmakers or letting good filmmakers, giving them real money to make what they want to make.

• 1:15:58Speaker 04

  It's over.

• 1:16:00Bill Simmons?

  I think it's coming back. I really do. I think we're closer than we were.

• 1:16:04Speaker 03

  It's just smaller.

• 1:16:05Speaker 04

  If there is no, like, that's like, that would be like taking away high school baseball. If, if there is, if there's no appetite for letting smaller, less established filmmakers, get reps, work out story and do all of that, that has to exist.

• 1:16:20Speaker 03

  There's a, there's an interesting thing happening next year at the movies. There's this movie, A24 is putting this movie out called The Back Rooms. I haven't seen it. I can't remember the filmmaker's name, but he made these YouTube videos that are sort of like creepypastas. They're like, it's like a horror movie idea that he made on YouTube. And based on this idea, he was drafted by the studio to adapt what he made on YouTube into a feature film. The film's got real stars in it. He's 20 years old. And it is like, it is the thing we're talking about. It's a studio trying to identify somebody really early on, giving them a shot.

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Kane Parsons.

• 1:16:56Speaker 03

  Kane Parsons, that's his name.

• 1:16:58Bill Simmons?

  I read about this.

• 1:17:00Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's gonna be good or not, but that's what Corb was talking about in his speech. The Backrooms is not gonna cost probably more than five million dollars.

• 1:17:10Speaker 03

  Take more bats.

• 1:17:11Speaker 04

  Even if it's bad. Even if it doesn't work.

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

  Because if you did find one based off of his YouTube videos, then that's an annuity that's gonna pay off forever if you're a studio, if you sign that person up. Like, if you're trying to find the next Christopher Nolan, you gotta give him chances to try to make their movie.

• 1:17:27Bill Simmons?

  I think the 90s were the last time where this actually happened, though. And there are a bunch of reasons for that. But I also feel like-

• 1:17:35Speaker 04

  Kevin Smith, like-

• 1:17:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and it was pre-internet. And I wonder sometimes, does the internet, in some ways, make it less likely for somebody to just have an imagination to come up with a story? Because they have easier things-

• 1:17:48Speaker 04

  Talent isn't there.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  No, I just worry sometimes that there's so many distractions. You think about when people make art. A lot of times it happens because they're bored, or they have nothing else to do. And it's like, I guess I'll just write this chapter of this book I was thinking about. Or I guess I'll try to make this song. Or I guess I'll try to flesh out this movie idea versus like, I'll go on Instagram. I sound like the old guy, but I do really worry about that.

• 1:18:12Speaker 03

  I think that's real.

• 1:18:14Speaker 04

  I don't think I've ever disagreed with one statement more.

• 1:18:19Bill Simmons?

  Let's hear it. But you don't have kids, though. I do. I watch how my kids spend their time versus how I spend my time.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  I think the idea of making a movie feels so arduous and long. And now you can just get famous on Instagram. You can make smaller jokes.

• 1:18:31Bill Simmons?

  There's shortcuts everywhere now.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Sketches on TikTok. There's other ways to get your creativity out.

• 1:18:35Speaker 04

  I am not saying that kids are not preoccupied with other things right now.

• 1:18:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:40Speaker 04

  Two things. One, the idea that people created out of boredom before, to me, just skips over the fact that-

• 1:18:48Speaker 04

  But like, I don't think that Quentin Tarantino was bored. I think Quentin Tarantino was-

• 1:18:51Bill Simmons?

  You're misunderstanding bored.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  But what else was there for him to do? He couldn't, there was no TikTok.

• 1:18:55Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no. He was obsessed.

• 1:18:57Speaker 02

  But I'm saying there was-

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  He was, he was-

• 1:18:58Bill Simmons?

  But the reason he became obsessed is because you had less to do.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  And the only thing he could do was make a movie. Now, now there's like a thousand other things you could make using digital tools. That doesn't necessarily mean a feature film.

• 1:19:10Speaker 04

  But, but, I, I, I get everything that you guys are saying. I'm not at, at all discounting-

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  Hasn't Tarantino himself said if he were alive now, he's like, I would have never made it as a director. I would have been too distracted.

• 1:19:20Speaker 03

  He would not have been a filmmaker.

• 1:19:21Speaker 04

  That, that, that, that's fine. I'm telling you right now-

• 1:19:24Bill Simmons?

  That's concerning.

• 1:19:24Speaker 04

  But I'm telling you, that's fine. I'm telling you right now, right now, I'm not even, I'm in no way conjecturing this. Right now, there are thousands, if not millions of people that want to get their movies made. And like, they want to get their movies made, and they don't want to get their movies made because they're bored. They want to get their movies made because-

• 1:19:46Bill Simmons?

  You can't weaponize the word bored. I'm telling you, like, people, people became passionate about stuff because they had less options for what to do every day.

• 1:19:55Speaker 03

  I think you're both right. I mean, I think the thing is that there are still people that have always existed who have an artistic idea burning inside of them, and they're obsessed with the medium that they're supposed to make it for. Like, I, I have a couple of friends who are younger filmmakers. A couple of people I've interviewed on the show and become friendly with over the years, who are in their twenties, who I'm like, this person's just born to do it. This is all they've ever cared about, and it doesn't matter that they're Gen Z. Like, they love movies, they worship movies, they have something to say. But there are less than there were, because there is more around that you can put that energy into.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:20:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, maybe it's more like distractions than being bored. It's just, I don't know. I, I wrote a book once because it was like, alright, what am I gonna do late at night? I'll just do this.

• 1:20:39Speaker 03

  I think video games are an amazing- You know, kind of rejoined her to this like, cause the amount of time you can spend just playing video games and going into those worlds. It doesn't mean the people that weren't throwing themselves into cinephilia and seeing every movie ever and then still going out and making movies.

• 1:20:53Bill Simmons?

  Well, so that's a bonus. Like you can watch so many more things now that if that's your passion, you could just be like, I'm gonna watch three movies, four movies today.

• 1:21:01Speaker 04

  You know, you know, I think is tainting my opinion of this is like.

• 1:21:06Speaker 03

  Well, you know, a lot of people that are trying to get shit made.

• 1:21:08Speaker 04

  Well, I've I've produced some movies.

• 1:21:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but that's, but that's over there, though. That's a separate topic.

• 1:21:14Speaker 04

  Well, no, it's not.

• 1:21:14Bill Simmons?

  Think about this when you're in your car, but when you're in your car driving.

• 1:21:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:18Bill Simmons?

  And you're at a stoplight, what do you do?

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  Look at your phone.

• 1:21:21Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:25Speaker 03

  What do you do when you shower? You listen to a podcast?

• 1:21:26Speaker 04

  The Godfather isn't available. Like, like, I still watch.

• 1:21:29Bill Simmons?

  But I'm saying.

• 1:21:30Speaker 04

  I still, I still like it.

• 1:21:32Bill Simmons?

  I think.

• 1:21:32Speaker 04

  I still watch a shit ton of movies, but.

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  But I think people are distracted way more than they used to be. And, and back in the day, like you, your imagination would run rampant because you didn't really have that much else to do. I had a stoplight. You just thought about weird shit.

• 1:21:46Speaker 03

  Partially, I think that's right.

• 1:21:47Speaker 04

  It could be. I'm telling you right now, like, there's a guy, and I, it's so weird that I haven't emailed him back. So maybe there's a guy that emails me every single day, every day.

• 1:21:59Speaker 03

  Now, you're just encouraging it.

• 1:22:00Speaker 04

  No, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna eventually get back to him. I gotta watch the movie. He emails me every day about the movie he made. And every email is different. Every email is like, this is a film that we came together and made in Toronto, and it's about this, and let me tell you this. Then the email on top of the email is, Van, they're like, I, I know, I've, I've, I've worked as a radio DJ. I know so few of these emails get through, but, and I've read every single one. And.

• 1:22:26Speaker 03

  Not, not to crowd you out, but this dude also emails me.

• 1:22:30Speaker 04

  Does he?

• 1:22:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:30Speaker 04

  Okay, but that's not about, but that's not about crowding me out. That just shows to, to me, that just shows me.

• 1:22:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's hustling.

• 1:22:38Speaker 04

  Like, how important it is that his thing gets seen. And I, I, I get that people are creating all types of things. I get that they are.

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 04

  But guys, like, people out here are desperate to get their stories told.

• 1:22:51Bill Simmons?

  That's no different than 1990.

• 1:22:52Speaker 03

  I'm telling my story every, every time I get a stack of Blu-rays from the same director out and put them in chronological order and take a photo of them and put them on Instagram, that's me making art.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  I feel like Tarantino saying that if I were alive now, no way I would have been a director is like the beginning and end of the argument.

• 1:23:13Speaker 03

  I love him, but he's a contrarian.

• 1:23:15Speaker 04

  I think that's also horseshit.

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  He's trying to fuck, I think he's trying to fuck.

• 1:23:18Bill Simmons?

  I actually think about would I have written sports columns if I grew up forty years later, the way people grow up now.

• 1:23:24Speaker 03

  You'd be making awesome YouTube videos.

• 1:23:25Bill Simmons?

  I think it would have been really different, right?

• 1:23:27Speaker 03

  The most amazing.

• 1:23:28Bill Simmons?

  Something, but I don't know if it would have been the same thing. And I definitely wouldn't have read all the books I read.

• 1:23:32Speaker 03

  But what you did about game five on your pod, if you were not who you are now, you would have found a way to do it in a different venue in that way, because that's the most consumable way. That's the other thing is that it's about wanting to be seen, like wanting your stuff to be seen. Everybody wants to be understood now, and everyone feels like they can be understood because we have this, right? It's harder to make a movie. It takes a year, five years. It takes a million dollars, ten million dollars.

• 1:23:57Speaker 04

  I will tell you this, it's harder to make a movie, but there's also no substitute for it.

• 1:24:02Speaker 03

  Oh, I agree with you. You know, I agree with that.

• 1:24:04Speaker 04

  And so it's definitely harder. It's definitely harder to make a film. There's also no substitute for it. There is, there is some kid, as much as we're talking about, we're leaving out one portion of it, which is inspiration. There is somebody that went and they watched centers and they sat down.

• 1:24:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:24:21Speaker 04

  And they were, however old they were, and they saw the medium that was on the screen, telling a specific story in a way that you can only tell it up there. You, as much as you would want to do it on your, you can't, the only way you can do it is if you take the cinematography, the action, the direction, the scope, all of that. Ten million people watched Ryan Coole talk about the way you should watch and shoot the movie. There is an interest for the art of storytelling, the relationship that you have between you and the screen, that to me, I see it all the time, like all the time.

• 1:25:03Speaker 04

  Like people, like shorts, all of that stuff, all the time. I think it's still very, very valuable. And I just hope that there's an.

• 1:25:12Bill Simmons?

  We agree with you.

• 1:25:13Speaker 04

  I know. What I'm saying is I hope that there's an. There's an ecosystem that nurtures that for the next, for, for the next group of people.

• 1:25:18Bill Simmons?

  But then you gotta remember the part that Ryan Coogler didn't just fall out of bed and make centers. Like, that's like a 15-year journey.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:25:25Bill Simmons?

  That includes Fruitvale Station and somebody letting him do that and him fighting to make it.

• 1:25:29Speaker 04

  You don't, my, my entire point is.

• 1:25:32Speaker 02

  You gotta support it at the beginning.

• 1:25:33Speaker 04

  You do not get to centers unless there is Fruitvale Station.

• 1:25:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:37Speaker 04

  You do, Ri- Ri- Ryan, when I was, went to the, the, the LA screening of centers, Ryan Coogler talked about why Omar Benson Miller is in the movie. Omar Benson Miller is in the movie because Ryan Coogler went to a screening when he was still a film student of Miracle at St. Anna. And he saw Omar Benson Miller in Miracle at St. Anna. And after that congratulated him and said, one day we gonna do a movie together. This is, this, and then, years and years after he's gotten the opportunity to make his movie, taken that opportunity and made the most out of it, he goes back and he cast that guy that was in that thing that he liked, like almost a decade before. That journey is how you get centers. Like.

• 1:26:22Bill Simmons?

  But the problem is Coogler is one of the most talented filmmakers we had in the last 20 years.

• 1:26:26Speaker 04

  They, they, they all can't be good.

• 1:26:28Bill Simmons?

  No, but they, I mean, he's like, that's like saying, why can't we have another Shay Gildes Alexander?

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Like, it's like, I think people, people are always gonna watch movies and be inspired and say, I wanna make a movie. That's always, that's always been there, always movie there. It's just, it's just a little bit easier now, I feel like, to, to try for three years and then go, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start a YouTube channel instead, I'm gonna start a podcast. What if I go the TikTok route? What if I express myself in a different way?

• 1:26:50Speaker 04

  This whole conversation is blowing my mind. Of course Shay Gildes, you don't wake up to be Shay, Shay Gildes Alexander, right?

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  No, but he worked his ass off.

• 1:26:59Speaker 04

  He had to pick the basketball up.

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:01Speaker 04

  Somebody had to nurture it. Somebody had to give him the opportunity to play. There had to be a game for him to play. There had to be a team that was like, hey, we'll take you and you will play. I'll tell you something else about him. That actually makes my point. He is Canadian. Fifteen, twenty years ago.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  He is.

• 1:27:19Speaker 04

  He is, he is, he is. I don't know if you guys know this. Fifteen, twenty years ago, the, him being Canadian would have meant that there was not enough basketball culture where he was for him to, number one, see a game that he loved, participate in a game that he loved, and have the infrastructure that he needed to, to work to get to ten thousand dollars to get great at the game that he loved. So the fact that he, as an international player, or Wimby, or whomever else all of these guys are, it shows that that sport is still evolving where people get opportunities.

• 1:27:53Bill Simmons?

  I guess where we disagree is, I think this infrastructure's been here the whole time. I don't think, I mean, we've had since Sundance and there's been, the film school boom happened in the nineties. This has been thirty-five years of people kind of knowing.

• 1:28:05Speaker 02

  I don't even think there's that much disagreement going on.

• 1:28:06Speaker 03

  There, I, I, that's what I was gonna say is, we're not actually arguing. I do think what's interesting about it, though, is that we're talking on the Monday after the lowest box office performance weekend since the nineties. And the, one of the reasons why that happened is because, yeah, Friday was Halloween, which is unusual, and they were, the studios were afraid to release a new movie on Halloween. So there was no, there were no new releases over the weekend. And they were banking on the Colleen Hoover adaptation having a good carryover from the previous weekend. And it's something that's been happening a lot, obviously, in part because there were strikes a couple of years ago, but also just the, this past year, there are just weekends where no movies come out.

• 1:28:45Bill Simmons?

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• 1:29:26Bill Simmons?

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• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  Well, that goes to the, like, the, there are these big directors that these studios are rallying around. But then everything else- It feels now like there's like 10 Spike weekends each year where it's like the Nolan weekend, the Spielberg weekend, the Coogler weekend, and then everything in between is just dead.

• 1:30:12Speaker 03

  This has been my, my big point in the last five years. It's just that the eventization is not going anywhere. Movies like that will continue to happen. Cooglers will come up through the system.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  The floor is falling out.

• 1:30:22Speaker 03

  It's just the, the like, the Andrew Davis, the guy who's like, goddamn, every Andrew Davis movie is really good, but you never knew Andrew Davis's name. He made The Fucking Fugitive, he made Under Siege, he made The Package. Every time you watch an Andrew Davis movie, you're like, Out for Justice, like, this movie's gonna be good.

• 1:30:37Speaker 04

  I fuck with it.

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  But he wasn't famous. Like, that is the thing specifically that is going to me.

• 1:30:42Speaker 04

  What was the guy that made The Dallas Connection? You guys never saw that, anyway. Um, but I, I used to like Andrew, whatever, I used to like his movies, too. Um, but, uh, this is what I'll say about this. You're right. That's why my thing is intentionality, always. It's intentionality. Not whether or not you're gonna get a director, it's like, I always used to tell celebrities that would be mad that they were getting their asses kicked by TMZ. They would be like, Van, I don't have any allies in the office. I'd be like, why don't you make one? Like if you want an ally in the office, if you want somebody in the office that cares about your story, why don't you make one?

• 1:31:24Speaker 04

  Why don't you be intentional about what it is that you want to exist? And if you want an ecosystem for up and coming movie makers that are going to undergird, I keep using that word, the next generation of films, why don't you be intentional about it? Now, I will say this, I think that other artists do this. I do. I think that other artists reach back and put people on all the time. Be intentional about the fact that there's talent to be found and cultivated and developed over the course and that these stories, these stories that are about the changing landscape of society that, you know what I would want to watch? I want to watch the movie about the kid that's so bored that he starts making TikToks and I want to see these stories. I care about their.

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  There's a great movie came out last year called DeeDee by this guy, Sean Wong, and he's, he was a kid who was in like eighth grade, trying to make friends and a little detached, growing up in, I want to say it was Central California.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  I think it's the Bay.

• 1:32:23Speaker 03

  In the Bay.

• 1:32:23Speaker 02

  Sacramento maybe even.

• 1:32:25Speaker 03

  And.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  Ooh, Fremont.

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  Fremont.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Speaker 03

  And YouTube is just getting going and he starts basically like trying to make friends by making skate videos, having his own YouTube account that have like pranks on it, trying to find his way. And it's a, it's a, it's a nostalgic movie, but like, I'm sure, I know, we've talked about it before, like, I know that that is a movie that resonates with people because it's the actual experience that you're describing. And that's, that's a, Sean came out of the Sundance system and he like developed his skills. I think he worked at Google for a minute and then developed his skills over time to figure out how to become a better, better filmmaker. To me, like that guy, that filmmaker specifically is somebody whose studio should be like, let me put my arms around you. Your, your next movie is going to get $25 million. Make it good. We're going to vet the script heavily.

• 1:33:11Speaker 03

  We're, the executives are going to be hard on you, but you're, we're going to make this movie good together. And then your next movie, if it does well, is going to get $75 million and we're going to keep growing together. Like that, that to me is the essence of the system because it costs so much money to make movies that are at scale. Like if you want to make independent films, that's a different story. Raising money yourself, being strategic, that's, you know all about that, that world. But the thing that I like and the thing that I'm talking about every week is. Getting this, these kinds of movies in front of as many people as possible. Like make a movie that can play on thirty five hundred screens. I really value that. Snake Eyes is an example of that.

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  But getting it in front of as many people as possible means it should be on Netflix.

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  Well, that's, that is, that is a, one battle after another, you know? Like there can be both. There can really be, there can be streaming services making movies and there can be studios putting movies in movie theaters.

• 1:33:58Speaker 04

  I, I, I, I think that there is no doubt about the fact that we are living in a ecosystem where there are movies that are just going to be for streaming. There are films that like, I, like, I am not the best person. I went and saw everything, saw all the movies. It was the only place you could see him, saw all the movies. The DVDs came out in, in, in the two thousands and they were going crazy. So there were certain, certain movies that I saw and I never experienced them on a big screen. But as soon as them bitches came out and they were playing on the big screen, I was like, guess what? Suicide Kings, big screen, I'm going to see it. All right? So I, so I, I get that and I understand that, that passion for the actual experience of going to, I know that that's different. There are movies for streaming, movies for all of this.

• 1:34:43Speaker 04

  I see it, there's a, there's a Tubi type movie. I watch these movies all the time. I watch these Tubi movies that are set in New Orleans. I just want to see what people are talking about and what they're trying to say. But I watch these movies all the time, right?

• 1:34:57Speaker 04

  I hope that the person that you're talking about is allowed to fail a couple of times.

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:35:02Speaker 04

  I hope that they're allowed to take chances on films that got decent budgets and that those movies came out and people didn't understand them. People didn't fuck with them and they're able to fail. Cooler is bad in a thousand. That is difficult.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18Speaker 04

  Like that is, that is, that is tough. I just hope that some of these people that have this artistic sensibility, like Spike. Some of Spike's movies, at the beginning Spike was on a run. But then Spike would take chances and he would make films that weren't for everyone. Right? But I feel like we're more enriched if there is a gigantic gumbo of creators and people that are allowed to create and have their say. That has to be nurtured intentionally. You have to want more people to have the opportunity to get their stories out. And you, and, and you have to, I mean.

• 1:35:51Bill Simmons?

  I don't know, I ju, I just don't buy it. I just don't. I think it's like goblety gook. Like, oh yeah, we gotta have everybody tell stories. Like telling stories is hard. Putting the time in day after day to make something good, to like learn how to be good at something. I don't think, I think some people wanna take the shortcuts. And they don't understand what kind of process it is.

• 1:36:13Speaker 04

  I get it.

• 1:36:13Bill Simmons?

  I think it's just really hard to make good shit. It's not as easy as, I wanna make a movie. Oh, here's my movie.

• 1:36:19Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 1:36:20Bill Simmons?

  Like, the whole thing is like, this, this is a fucking process. It takes years and years and years and years to become even decent at something. And I really wonder sometimes if people realize that. That's the number one question I get asked all the time. How do I do this? How do I do this? And it's like, alright, you wanna be a writer? What are your favorite books? Well, what do you mean? What are your favorite books? What, what book have you read the most? What do you mean read the most? Like, read, read a lot of times? Yeah, have you read a book like 20 times and studied every page from it? I, like, I, I really think sometimes that people wanna just get to the end without, without remembering, like, there's a whole journey to get to the end.

• 1:36:56Speaker 04

  But you understand that that's not what I'm talking about, right?

• 1:36:58Bill Simmons?

  No, I know. But I'm telling you, that's where I'm coming from with like, being bored, the shortcuts, the whole thing. It's like, this is really hard.

• 1:37:05Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:37:05Bill Simmons?

  And I, I wonder sometimes if people realize that.

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  So.

• 1:37:08Speaker 03

  I was thinking about this a little bit when you were talking about,

• 1:37:10Speaker 04

  It does.

• 1:37:11Speaker 03

  coaching people up in the TMZ office. Cause the other thing is like, you guys have both worked really hard, but you're also incredibly talented and charismatic. And there's also just like, some people just got it. You know, there's, there is a just got it factor to some of this.

• 1:37:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:37:23Speaker 03

  That like, sometimes the person who just got it isn't nurtured or taken care of or doesn't have an opportunity. There's no denying that. But sometimes some people just walk in and they do have it. And if they work hard enough at it, then they can make it happen.

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  But Van's a good example of this, though. You got all these reps for years.

• 1:37:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:37:43Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:37:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:37:44Bill Simmons?

  Did those reps make you better?

• 1:37:46Speaker 04

  Certainly.

• 1:37:47Bill Simmons?

  But that was an unconventional path, right? Mm-hmm. For years and years, you just have to come up on the fly. And now CNN. Figure out how to interact with. Yeah, now you're on CNN. You'd figure out how to interact with people. You had to figure out what worked and didn't work. You could have a trial and error situation where if something didn't work, it wasn't the biggest deal in the world because the platform, you know, was a little more forgiving. And over a while, you forgot to, you figured out like, oh, this is my style. Mm-hmm. This is how to express myself. Oh, I'm getting better at this. I have confidence here. But that's the whole thing. Like Craig and those guys have been doing the fantasy show. How many years have you been doing it? Five. Like, if you went back and listened to the first year of the show, would you be fired up to listen to it? You'd be like, oh, my God, we sucked at this. Why were we so bad at this? Like, this is the whole thing. It's a fucking process.

• 1:38:31Speaker 04

  So there's a talent component. I'm not disagreeing with that. I think about when you talk about, like, me at TMZ. I wrote my way on to the TMZ tour. Tiffany Drucker, shout out to her. Uh, she was a production coordinator at TMZ. They were looking for tour guides. I sent her my resume, but the cover sheet of my resume, I wrote something funny, right? And when she got it, she's like, I had to interview you, even though we'd stopped because of what was on there, right? Then I get on there and I get on the tour bus. And, I mean, everybody else would do the tour. Me and Kalika would run the tour after the tour bus. We would get in the car and run the tour bus around town. Like, in the car. We would drive and run the tour bus around town. And I would stop and do my whole thing.

• 1:39:16Speaker 04

  So when Harvey came on to take the tour, he saw it and went, hey, why don't you come into the tel, why don't you come into the studio and, and, and do it? And then boom, it kind of starts. I started there in April. By June, I was on TV every day. The, all of the could, the, the, I'm not saying that I'm not naturally charismatic, unbelievably handsome and tall and beautiful.

• 1:39:36Bill Simmons?

  Didn't say any of those things.

• 1:39:37Speaker 04

  I'm not, I'm not saying that. But what I'm saying is, though, is that. There was an opportunity given to me. And there was an opportunity given to me by people who were like, oh, interesting, new, different. And then the X factor was the fact that every time I see an opportunity or a chance, I go, what the fuck do I have to do? That is a different thing. However, in this, where there are millions of dollars at play, there is sometimes some people that need to be able to look and look at somebody and see people and go, huh, there's something there, what can we get out of it? Talent capitalization. I see it, I don't understand how we're having this conversation.

• 1:40:16Bill Simmons?

  You've seen these movie studios, none of them have the wherewithal to do that. That's like a fantasy world.

• 1:40:21Speaker 04

  I don't think that's true.

• 1:40:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't think they're good enough to figure that out.

• 1:40:24Speaker 04

  You know what's funny is?

• 1:40:25Bill Simmons?

  I just don't.

• 1:40:26Speaker 04

  I'm not about to start glazing.

• 1:40:27Speaker 02

  That's just really hard to me.

• 1:40:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't think that's crazy.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  I found PTA, he's 19.

• 1:40:32Bill Simmons?

  But PTA is like a prodigy.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  That's very difficult.

• 1:40:34Bill Simmons?

  PTA was making like elaborate home movies when he was 15, like you're just not going to become PTA.

• 1:40:40Speaker 04

  I'm not, it's not about being PTA. Because there's only gonna, it doesn't matter if, there's only gonna be one PTA or two PTAs per generation. There are a lot of films out there that are better than the people who actually created their films. There are a lot of films out there that are the result of a certain dedication to storytelling, a sincerity. There are people that made the story of their life and couldn't make the story of anything else, right? There are all, there are all kinds of situations out there where that exists. Rap phenomenon, your first album is your best. Why? Because it's all in the.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  Your whole life story.

• 1:41:17Speaker 04

  It's your whole life story. What I am saying is, there is a portion of this, that in order to, whatever it is that we're talking about, whatever it is that we're talking about, that if you want the next great anything, you have to invest into it. The NBA right now is in Africa. And they're investing money into Africa. And what you are seeing is a return on that investment. It's a return on talent that was overlooked. You can almost do this in any sport if it is Dominican Republican in baseball, right? You see a bunch of people who have a passion for something, they're using milk cartons as gloves. What if you gave them a real glove? What if you gave them a real bat?

• 1:42:00Speaker 04

  What if you took somebody that was 13 allegedly? And then you brought them to the Dodgers training facility and you gave them what they need? After a certain point, would you get an all star out of it? Not everybody will be an all star, hence the movie Sugar, great movie.

• 1:42:15Bill Simmons?

  Very good.

• 1:42:15Speaker 04

  Not everybody would be an all star, but you would get more all stars than you would get if you didn't do it? Like you would get more.

• 1:42:22Bill Simmons?

  I just think creating shit is different than being good at basketball.

• 1:42:25Speaker 04

  It's the exact same thing.

• 1:42:27Bill Simmons?

  I disagree. Because somebody who's creating something, it's the sum of a lot of the experiences they've had in life.

• 1:42:33Speaker 04

  There's also technical expertise that goes into it.

• 1:42:36Bill Simmons?

  It's the stuff they've watched. It's, did they care about this from the moment they were like six years old? Like you, any of the great directors, none of them were like at age 20. Oh, I think I'll try this movie thing. These were people that from the moment they were like six, were like seeing everything this way. And I don't, I just don't think it's like basketball where it's like, that guy's 6'8", maybe he'll be good at basketball. Some of it has to come from you. Like when you say like, we need more stories, like, yeah, we do need more stories, but then that's gotta come from the people and they have to care about the stories they're telling and the experiences they have. And by the way, you have to learn from all the content that we have out there. Like, there's a lot that goes into it, I think.

• 1:43:17Speaker 03

  This is one of the great everybody's right conversations I've ever had.

• 1:43:21Speaker 03

  I don't really disagree with anything anyone is saying. I, I do think that movies are gonna continue to be a little bit smaller as a business. It's not gonna get bigger again. And we got, like, I, I've been getting my head around that for the last couple of years.

• 1:43:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:34Speaker 03

  And so to me, the thing that I value the most, you could see it in how I try to book interviews on Big Picture. The two kinds of interviews I'm trying to get are the filmmakers I really love or. Who have made a big movie and first time directors. Those are the, that's the two categories I'm looking for. Who is a new voice this year? The most recent ones, Ava Victor, who made Sorry Baby and Alex Russell, who made Lurker. Two really cool debuts that I thought were really, really interesting. Talk to them, figure out what gets them excited, what's inside of them, what's the thing that motivates them to do this? And then how did they do it? I always ask them, like, how'd you raise the money to do this?

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  Lady was like that, she had a really unconventional background.

• 1:44:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, like an online comedian who is like making YouTube videos and, but there's more and more people that are coming out of that background that are doing, that are trying to get into this work. Because they love movies, like that's what you find out invariably is ultimately they do love movies. But then there's like, you know, there's still a hundred and eighty people who are master filmmakers. Who I'm always interested and curious to talk to, and I hope that they continue to get as much money as possible. But it's that, that thing in the middle that I'm talking about is the thing that is not really there anymore. And it, you know, it doesn't even really matter what your background is. Like you used to be like a white, you're a white guy, you got a leg up. You're going to be able to get a seventy five million dollar movie made because it's got Steven Seagal in it. That whole part of the world just kind of feels gone.

• 1:44:56Speaker 03

  You know, like Caught Stealing was treated like a miracle that had happened because Aronofsky was like, yeah, I'll make like a shit eating New York crime movie. And they'll put it on a million screens because we got Austin Butler. That was like the weirdest thing that happened at movies this year and it didn't really do that well. So I think that there is like a much more global thing going on. Maybe it's boredom and a lack of motivation, maybe it's a lack of opportunity.

• 1:45:17Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it's a lack of motivation. I just think there's way more distractions than there used to be. There's too many things pulling people in different directions.

• 1:45:25Speaker 03

  How many times do you think Ben has gone to the movie theater this year?

• 1:45:28Bill Simmons?

  Probably five.

• 1:45:29Speaker 03

  Do you know, do you know what they would be?

• 1:45:31Bill Simmons?

  The, the biggest ones to go to and a couple of horror movies. I think his generation, horror movies seem to be the things that have a lot of life right now with like the under twenty fives. Like they, you go to the, you gotta see this in the theater, it's scarier that way. Whereas comedies feel like they're just dead. Nobody's like, you gotta see this comedy in the theater, it's so fun to be around all these people laughing.

• 1:45:51Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:45:52Bill Simmons?

  That hasn't really happened anymore. Like that, even go and remember when like, uh, The Hangover came out or There's Something About Mary or like, I gotta see this in the theater, everybody loves this. And now it's like, I'll just stream it with my girlfriend or whatever.

• 1:46:05Speaker 04

  I think even, uh, some of the streaming. Some of the streaming stuff, they haven't really figured out how to, I mean, we can't really agree on what makes us laugh anymore, what you're supposed to be laughing at.

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  It's the other problem. Maybe that, that might come back though.

• 1:46:17Speaker 03

  I haven't watched, um, I Love L.A. yet, but to me, Rachel Sennett is like a prime example of this, where it's like thirty years ago, she would have been a movie star. They would, they would have been building movies around her for a decade, trying to make it happen. They would have forced her down our throat. And now, after a couple of movies, she's got a TV show on HBO.

• 1:46:34Speaker 04

  So, I think there are a lot of ways to say what you want to say, and sometimes you don't even have to put it in a story, you just say it on Twitter and all of that stuff. I think, there are, there are a group of people, a group of creators, that will feel like, they'll feel constrained by the limits of two minutes to tell their story.

• 1:46:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:54Speaker 04

  They will feel constrained by the limit of what the reals can do to tell their story. And, there is, until this changes, and maybe it will, one thing I'll give the movie industry credit for is to ma- is that they've maintained the prestige of what it means to be an important filmmaker. And in all of these different disciplines- It's still the highest achievement. Like, of all of these different disciplines, prestige is very important. Certainly. It is meaningful, you are taken seriously, you are lauded, you are looked at in a specific way, when you are a good, important filmmaker. That's changing in a lot of other disciplines. I think in music, that's changing a little bit, I think that's, but in film, right now,

• 1:47:38Speaker 04

  if you can make a movie that literally gets people out of themselves, like, we still revel, when we, when we talk about Denny, when we talk about PTA, when we talk about all of these, we, we're still waiting for the next one, that has not gone away. I think people will chase the importance and the prestige and what it means to tell stories, but I also think this.

• 1:48:00Speaker 04

  I think legitimately, there is some kid in South Louisiana right now that looks around and his shit is fucked up. And he's like, I want everybody to know. I want everybody to see this. The documentary ain't good enough. I saw Nickel Boys, I wanna fuck with the camera, I wanna do some different shit. I think it was people that when they saw Clarksdale and Sinners, they were like, you know what? I come from a place just like that. I wanna do some crazy shit and I want people to understand this. You cannot understand, no one can make a TikTok and make you understand Clarksdale, Mississippi, or the blues, or that culture, as much as it is when you see the sweat coming off the people. I think that's still meaningful.

• 1:48:40Speaker 04

  I just hope that we are really, really intentional, I say again, about giving people those opportunities. Because your master filmmakers, they've always existed. And I respect them. Like, I respect them. Sometimes I watch movies and then I'll, I'll actually stop the movie and then go, and then go look at the script. Cause I'll be like, how the fuck is this written? I can't see how you would write that if you wanted to do it. And sometimes when you look at it, it's so fucking different than what is, I know you read a lot of scripts, it's so fucking different than how you would, how you would see, and if it were something that you were writing.

• 1:49:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:19Speaker 04

  They would be like, what the fuck are you doing?

• 1:49:20Speaker 03

  Well, the even crazier thing, it's kind of appropriate that we're doing this with the De Palma conversation, but I was at the Academy Museum with my daughter on Sunday and, uh, there's a Bong Joon Ho exhibit.

• 1:49:31Speaker 04

  See, at the Academy Museum with his daughter, she's gonna grow up with a specific appreciation for film and going to the Academy.

• 1:49:40Bill Simmons?

  She's gonna turn 11 and turn on him.

• 1:49:42Speaker 03

  She might. I'm giving her opportunity, to your point, to learn. But we, she didn't really care about the Bong Joon Ho exhibit for obvious reasons. She was very into the Greenwood and Spencer production design of Barbie. But I was able to explain to her very clearly because in that exhibit, which is really cool, Bong storyboards every movie and he storyboards every single image he wants to see. And they have the storyboards up in the museum. So I can hold her up and show her the images and say, this is a movie that I've seen. The man who made this movie saw the entire movie in his head before he made it. And while he was writing the script, he was drawing the movie so that he could create the images. This is something Martin Scorsese does. He storyboards all of these shots.

• 1:50:23Speaker 03

  In that documentary, he designs all this stuff. So it's like it's both things. It's like there are people who can see these things and who have these skills, but also those people have been protected and supported over time. And that's why my daughter will be a master filmmaker. Case closed.

• 1:50:39Speaker 04

  This is legitimately the last thing I say because I know that this probably be broken out as a separate podcast.

• 1:50:45Speaker 03

  This is the first episode of Baggage and Bias.

• 1:50:47Speaker 04

  Baggage and Bias. That's a good first. I will say this.

• 1:50:50Bill Simmons?

  Baggage and Bias with Van Lathan?

• 1:50:52Speaker 04

  Baggage and Bias. I will say this. You guys realize that the bad NBA players are as important as the good ones. So you must have bad movies. Bad art is as essential as good art. Like Michael Jordan doesn't exist if there's no one to compare him to.

• 1:51:10Bill Simmons?

  Okay, but you're leaving out the part that it's worse to fail in the 2020s than it's ever been. And this is the thing that has not ruined writing, but really changed it and affected it. And made it so much different than it was 15 years ago. And why the essay writing and features and everything seems so much more, there's a sameness and a blandness to it that just wasn't there when we were doing Gremlin. Because people didn't care if they took a big swing. Now everyone is always worried about getting full eight on the internet about whatever.

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  It's why I think there's no Nick Cage's right now because Nick Cage's like authentic weird self would get destroyed in a movie now.

• 1:51:48Speaker 03

  But you almost can't speak about this because you feed off the heat. You're like fucking Razor Ramon. You're like, yeah, give it to me.

• 1:51:55Bill Simmons?

  But this is, these are the TMZ reps.

• 1:51:57Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:51:57Bill Simmons?

  You developed your thick skin.

• 1:51:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, it callits me over. There's still some times that get to me, but it callits me over. But what I am saying is.

• 1:52:05Bill Simmons?

  Tyler's chuck jokes.

• 1:52:07Speaker 04

  Fuck that shit. What I'm saying is it is essential. Failure is essential.

• 1:52:14Bill Simmons?

  And when I. But you say that, this is, this is where you do the van thing. Most people don't want to fail. They don't want to take a chance and fail once. But you have to fail to be good at something. You have to take chances.

• 1:52:27Speaker 03

  I still haven't made a good pod. I've been podding for almost 10 years. I'm still waiting for my first good pod.

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  The, the, the ability to embrace a failure and be like, that didn't work. I learned from it. Now I'll do this next thing. I think is really scary to a lot of people because, and part of it is from how people grow up now. How people, what they're told, what they read, how mean people can be online.

• 1:52:49Speaker 04

  That's very true.

• 1:52:49Bill Simmons?

  There's a whole bunch of factors that go into it.

• 1:52:51Speaker 04

  Part of, part of this, what I'm talking about is maybe us changing our relationship to that. I saw a movie.

• 1:52:57Bill Simmons?

  That's another one. How's that gonna happen?

• 1:52:58Speaker 04

  But like, I saw a movie earlier this year by somebody who I know is a talented filmmaker. I know for sure they're a talented filmmaker. I could see it in the movie. The movie itself is just not very good. It's just not that good. But you can look into the movie.

• 1:53:15Bill Simmons?

  And see pieces.

• 1:53:16Speaker 04

  You can see it.

• 1:53:18Bill Simmons?

  I could, I could see that with Jake Laravia though. But like, he's so close to being good.

• 1:53:21Speaker 03

  He went for like 32.

• 1:53:22Bill Simmons?

  He's been good lately.

• 1:53:24Speaker 03

  He went off.

• 1:53:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well now he's been good.

• 1:53:26Speaker 04

  Stop being racist towards white people.

• 1:53:28Bill Simmons?

  The whites are saving the Lakers.

• 1:53:29Speaker 04

  If he was Darius Washington Laravia, you would be like.

• 1:53:32Bill Simmons?

  The Lakers need the whites.

• 1:53:33Speaker 03

  The Reeves Laravia two man game was Friday night.

• 1:53:36Speaker 04

  Going crazy.

• 1:53:36Speaker 03

  Wild.

• 1:53:37Speaker 04

  Right, going crazy.

• 1:53:38Bill Simmons?

  Same house around there would be great.

• 1:53:39Speaker 04

  The MAGA pick and roll. But, but what like, but what I'm saying is that like, there, like, there has to be. I'm just talking about. I'm talking about believing in people.

• 1:53:52Bill Simmons?

  We all, I, everyone believes in people.

• 1:53:55Speaker 04

  I know.

• 1:53:55Speaker 03

  I know, but you keep like, you keep, you keep like presenting like you have like.

• 1:53:59Bill Simmons?

  This magic elixir.

• 1:54:01Speaker 03

  The most noble point of view, which it is noble.

• 1:54:03Speaker 04

  It's not, I'm not saying it's noble. I'm just saying, no, no, no.

• 1:54:05Bill Simmons?

  Can we have 35 years of film schools and scholarships and Sundance?

• 1:54:09Speaker 04

  I'm not, I'm not, they could be doing more. I'm not saying.

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  No, they definitely can.

• 1:54:13Speaker 03

  They definitely can. They definitely agree with that.

• 1:54:15Speaker 04

  I'm not saying it to sound noble. I'm not even saying it to be noble. I'm saying it's legitimately the only way the thing keeps going.

• 1:54:22Speaker 03

  I agree with you. I agree with that.

• 1:54:23Speaker 04

  The, the only.

• 1:54:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:54:24Speaker 04

  I'm, that, that's why I'm a little bit.

• 1:54:26Speaker 03

  Gotta give more people more shots all the time.

• 1:54:29Speaker 04

  It's the only way you find it.

• 1:54:30Speaker 03

  Totally agree.

• 1:54:32Bill Simmons?

  I'm just curious, like, who's giving them more shots? We've already established none of these movie studios give a shit about anybody.

• 1:54:37Speaker 03

  That, I mean, that is a real problem.

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  That's never changing. That's been movie studios for 100 years.

• 1:54:42Speaker 04

  That's not true.

• 1:54:44Bill Simmons?

  What's not true?

• 1:54:45Speaker 04

  What movie did PTA make after Hard Eight?

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  They made Boogie Nights.

• 1:54:48Speaker 04

  Now, what, now how, now how difficult of a sale?

• 1:54:51Bill Simmons?

  Do you know why they did Boogie Nights? Because they thought it was gonna make money. That's why they greenlit every movie.

• 1:54:56Speaker 04

  They definitely thought it was gonna make money, but also it was just a cool fucking idea.

• 1:55:00Bill Simmons?

  Because the guy was a fucking prodigy.

• 1:55:01Speaker 04

  I, I, I understand, but there, but there, there, there are so many films, though.

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  Very specific time. Indie films are taking off.

• 1:55:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  Mike Deluca, like, really wanted to work. The Weinstein era was like all of the independent movies.

• 1:55:13Bill Simmons?

  Everyone's looking for more popping.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  It was like a moment in time.

• 1:55:16Speaker 04

  As we give.

• 1:55:17Speaker 03

  That can happen again.

• 1:55:19Speaker 04

  It should.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  It can, it can happen again.

• 1:55:22Speaker 04

  No, it, it, it has to.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it has. It has happened.

• 1:55:25Speaker 04

  Because we just talked about, uh, one battle after another legitimately, if somebody doesn't go, oh, my God, look, interesting, this guy, great, amazing dude. Then you don't, the movie never happens. And by the way, not only does the movie never happen, but you then get, uh, you get.

• 1:55:40Bill Simmons?

  Can't mention PTA, though. That's like saying, Giannis is great. We gotta find more people from Greece. Like, PTA is like a generational prodigy.

• 1:55:48Speaker 04

  What do you mean? It's like saying Giannis is great.

• 1:55:50Bill Simmons?

  He's literally named the freak.

• 1:55:52Speaker 04

  Right, but do you?

• 1:55:53Bill Simmons?

  PTA is the freak.

• 1:55:54Speaker 04

  But do you understand what I'm saying, though?

• 1:55:55Bill Simmons?

  PTA was making eight millimeter, ninety minute movies when he was fifteen.

• 1:55:59Speaker 04

  So, think about this, though. What is Giannis? Giannis is.

• 1:56:03Bill Simmons?

  A physical freak.

• 1:56:04Speaker 04

  But he's also the eventuality of.

• 1:56:07Bill Simmons?

  With an amazing work ethic. Just, just let me get it out.

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  I see what Van is.

• 1:56:10Speaker 04

  He's also the eventuality.

• 1:56:12Speaker 03

  Investing in Europe.

• 1:56:13Speaker 04

  Of investing.

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  Spreading the game around the country, yeah.

• 1:56:15Speaker 04

  So Giannis did not just happen because of an individualistic set of circumstances. That's part of the reason why he is who he is. But in nineteen eighty-six, there would have been a Giannis who would have never made the NBA.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:56:28Speaker 04

  Because we weren't there yet.

• 1:56:30Speaker 03

  This is another way of thinking about this, where you, you've both made a good point, which is that also movies have just become internationally democratized in a way. And there are many of the biggest movies of the year not made in America anymore. We thought of America as the absolute hobby.

• 1:56:42Bill Simmons?

  That's the real sad part of this.

• 1:56:44Speaker 03

  But Asia makes so many of the most popular films around the world. European cinema is still pretty strong, not as strong as it used to be, but still pretty strong. You know, there's obviously African cinema, South American cinema, like, these are things we don't watch. Bollywood is still, is massive right now. Um, we're watching anime coming out of Japan is enormous, even in this country. So, it's not, it is kind of like what happened in the NBA like twenty years ago, where it was like, oh, wow, the All-Star game is actually forty percent. European and it's gonna increasingly be moving in that direction.

• 1:57:16Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna be first team NBA this year. It's gonna be all Europeans, it looks like. I'll tell you this. So I was, I've been working on, I think I'm gonna do a podcast and I thought I was gonna already do it, but, as you know, I'm, I feel like I'm, sports movies, that's been my favorite thing to write about.

• 1:57:32Speaker 03

  What?

• 1:57:33Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna do the twenty best, twenty best sports movies of this century.

• 1:57:36Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:57:38Bill Simmons?

  So I've been kinda watching them on the side and we've done some.

• 1:57:41Speaker 03

  Happy New Year to you, number one.

• 1:57:42Bill Simmons?

  No, so I really love The Way Back with Affleck.

• 1:57:45Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 1:57:46Bill Simmons?

  I think that's a great movie. And I think that's probably my favorite sports movie this decade. But anyway, I was watching it in the last week. And then the movie ends and it's like directed by Gavin O'Connor, written by Brad Inglesby. And it's like.

• 1:57:58Speaker 03

  Well, that's why that movie's good. Yeah.

• 1:58:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And Affleck, by the way, is probably the best he's ever been in a movie in that movie. But it's also the pedigree of the, the writing that he had and the person who directed it, who is a fucking artist.

• 1:58:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:58:11Bill Simmons?

  And you need all of these different pieces to have a good movie and it, you know.

• 1:58:15Speaker 04

  Did you see?

• 1:58:15Bill Simmons?

  I think that's.

• 1:58:16Speaker 03

  I mean this with no disrespect to Gavin O'Connor, whose movies I love, but the next movie that Gavin O'Connor made also starred Ben Affleck and it was The Accountant Two. And.

• 1:58:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:24Speaker 03

  The Accountant isn't very good. Like The Accountant Two isn't very good. And then that movie was made because.

• 1:58:28Bill Simmons?

  I refuse to watch it.

• 1:58:28Speaker 03

  It needed to get made because it would further people's careers and be good for the studios. And it's like, I legitimately think Gavin O'Connor is a gifted artist. But that is actually a testimony to how fucked up everything is right now.

• 1:58:39Speaker 04

  What's, what's the Robot Lady movie? That we, that they.

• 1:58:43Speaker 03

  Companion.

• 1:58:43Speaker 04

  Did you see that?

• 1:58:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:45Speaker 04

  Did you like it?

• 1:58:46Bill Simmons?

  I really liked the performance by the lead.

• 1:58:49Speaker 03

  Sophie Thatcher.

• 1:58:50Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:58:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:51Speaker 03

  She's terrific.

• 1:58:52Bill Simmons?

  I think she's really good.

• 1:58:53Speaker 04

  I think she's really great.

• 1:58:53Bill Simmons?

  I didn't really like the movie and I would never wanna watch it again.

• 1:58:56Speaker 03

  Are you out on Jack Quaid?

• 1:58:57Speaker 04

  Not, not only did I like it, I loved it. It like, I, I, I loved it.

• 1:59:02Speaker 03

  I liked it a lot.

• 1:59:02Speaker 04

  I, I, I loved the movie. I thought it was fantastic. Robot Lady, everybody robots, we don't know who the robots are. Very cool. All set in one place. All of that. Remember, I watched movies, remember Worth Winning with Mark Harmon? Have you ever seen that? Remember that? Mark Harmon trying to.

• 1:59:18Speaker 03

  You always pull this move. You just say in a movie from some thirty years ago, you're like, remember that? Movie, that was good and it and it often it was.

• 1:59:25Speaker 04

  But it's a totally unimportant movie. That's my thing.

• 1:59:28Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:59:29Speaker 04

  My thing is, it's like worth winning with Mark Harmon, where Mark Harmon plays a handsome weatherman. Who is trying to figure out, I think, what lady to marry or something like, it's a totally unimportant movie. I get that the way back is like one of the best sports movie and they had all of these guys behind it. But sometimes good movies are like totally unimportant, they're for the moment. They're films to be consumed and ideas that people had. So there does not have to be a murderer's role of creators behind every film.

• 2:00:02Bill Simmons?

  Do you think there should be a movie about gooner culture?

• 2:00:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm already writing that, I write it every day.

• 2:00:06Speaker 03

  I was wondering if the three of us should write a film for Carlo Gugino.

• 2:00:12Bill Simmons?

  And gooner culture?

• 2:00:13Speaker 02

  This podcast itself is a bit of a gooner.

• 2:00:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:00:16Bill Simmons?

  It really is.

• 2:00:16Speaker 04

  Anyway.

• 2:00:17Bill Simmons?

  We should have invited people to a theater, all gotten together.

• 2:00:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I guess we should probably wrap it up.

• 2:00:25Speaker 04

  Probably should wrap it up.

• 2:00:26Bill Simmons?

  Getting a little lightheaded.

• 2:00:27Speaker 04

  Nah, I, me too, I need something to eat, but the last thing I'll say is, y'all talking all of this? Y'all do this every day.

• 2:00:35Speaker 03

  Do what every day?

• 2:00:36Speaker 04

  Every day I see people that used to be a fucking P A or intern or the producer or all of that shit. Every day I see talent developed at the Ringer. Every day I see capitalization of.

• 2:00:49Speaker 02

  Here comes the glaze.

• 2:00:51Speaker 04

  It's not glaze, that's the other bad podcast. Can I be, can I, can I be real?

• 2:00:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a secret to baggage of bias.

• 2:00:56Speaker 04

  Here comes the glaze, can I be real with you though?

• 2:00:59Bill Simmons?

  This would be a huge hit.

• 2:01:00Speaker 04

  Here comes the glaze, the only reason why I'm saying that though, is because I come from a place where that kinda didn't happen as much. I'm blown away with the young people that we, that we have at the Ringer and how, and like how they do it. And so I'm, I can't believe, you I can believe, I can't believe you. I can't believe that you are against young filmmakers and young filmmakers.

• 2:01:23Speaker 04

  I'm fucking with you guys.

• 2:01:26Speaker 03

  So just takeaways. Bill says no more opportunities for young people, especially filmmakers of color. Absolutely not.

• 2:01:32Bill Simmons?

  My takeaway.

• 2:01:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33Bill Simmons?

  Here's my big takeaway.

• 2:01:34Speaker 04

  Go to TikTok.

• 2:01:36Bill Simmons?

  Use your imagination.

• 2:01:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:38Bill Simmons?

  Read, watch stuff, sit at a stoplight, just look around at the lights.

• 2:01:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, buy physical media if you can afford it.

• 2:01:45Bill Simmons?

  Buy physical media, learn from the best people.

• 2:01:47Speaker 03

  Watch the Mac.

• 2:01:48Speaker 04

  Bottom line.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  True romance.

• 2:01:49Speaker 04

  Being subjective, but yeah.

• 2:01:51Speaker 03

  Watch Jake Laravia.

• 2:01:52Bill Simmons?

  Don't doom scroll.

• 2:01:53Speaker 03

  See how he worked hard to get where he is today, even as a white American. Is he American, Jake Laravia?

• 2:01:58Speaker 04

  I think he is.

• 2:01:58Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:01:59Speaker 04

  And by the way, now I have, now we have to, now I have to respond to that guy and, and.

• 2:02:03Bill Simmons?

  You do.

• 2:02:04Speaker 04

  I've read every email.

• 2:02:06Speaker 03

  Tell them I've read them too, but I won't be responding.

• 2:02:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, I know. Sometimes you can't, but I've read every, I've read every email.

• 2:02:11Bill Simmons?

  It's secretly me, it's my script.

• 2:02:13Speaker 04

  Is it you?

• 2:02:15Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Shield, thanks to Van, thanks to Sean, thanks to Gahan Eduardo as well. I'm going to be back on Thursday at some point with the third podcast of the week and new rewatchable is coming on Monday. So I will see you on Thursday.

• 2:02:47Bill Simmons?

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