#494: Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett — Two Legends on Competing, Overcoming Adversity, Must-Read Books, and Much More

Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett — Two Legends on Competing, Overcoming Adversity, Must-Read Books, and Much More | Brought to you by Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/tim automated investing, Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim sleeping solution for dynamic cooling and heating, and ButcherBox http://butcherbox.com/tim premium meats delivered to your door. More on all three below. Michael Phelps (@michaelphelps https://twitter.com/michaelphelps) is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes of all time. He captured 28 medals, including a record-setting 23 gold medals, and set 39 world records over the course of his career. Michael utilized his performance bonus for winning eight gold medals in 2008 to establish the Michael Phelps Foundation https://michaelphelpsfoundation.org/, which promotes water safety, healthy living (physical and mental), and the pursuit of dreams. The Foundation’s signature program — IM — is a learn-to-swim, healthy living, and goal-setting curriculum based on the principles and tools Michael utilized in his swimming career and is available through the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and Special Olympics International. His advocacy for water safety and mental health has earned the recognition of the Boys and Girls Clubs of America (Champion of Youth), American Image Awards (Humanitarian Award), Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (Special Recognition Award), The Ruderman Family Foundation (Morton E. Ruderman Award in Inclusion), and PR Week (Health Influencer 50 and 2020 Communicator of the Year), among others. Michael served as an executive producer and featured talent in the HBO documentary The Weight of Gold https://www.hbo.com/documentaries/the-weight-of-gold, which explores the mental health challenges Olympic athletes often face. In addition, he has published two autobiographies, No Limits: The Will to Succeed https://www.amazon.com/No-Limits-audiobook/dp/B001O1ZXPG/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20 and Beneath the Surface https://www.amazon.com/Beneath-Surface-Story-Michael-Michael/dp/1683580877/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20, that were New York Times and USA Today bestsellers, and one children’s book, How to Train with a T-Rex and Win Eight Gold Medals https://www.amazon.com/How-Train-Rex-Gold-Medals/dp/1416986693/?tag=offsitoftimfe-20. Grant Hackett (@grant__hackett https://www.instagram.com/grant__hackett/?hl=en) represented and captained Australia in swimming at the Olympic Games. He collected a total of 58 medals over the course of his swimming career — with 26 gold at Olympic, Commonwealth, and World Championships levels — along with 16 world records. He remained unbeaten for 11 years in his pet event, the 1500m freestyle. Grant also received prestigious honors such as the Order of Australia, Centenary Medal, and Australian Sports Medal. Grant is a member of the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame. His qualifications include an executive master's of business administration with first-class honors, a diploma of business law, and a diploma of financial services. Grant is the CEO of Generation Life https://genlife.com.au/, an Australia-based investment firm managing more than $1.3 billion. Please enjoy! * This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep http://eightsleep.com/Tim! Eight Sleep’s Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim is the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced (and user-friendly) solution on the market. Simply add the Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55°F or as hot as 110°F. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. And now, my dear listeners—that’s you—can get $250 off the Pod Pro Cover http://eightsleep.com/Tim. Simply go to EightSleep.com/Tim http://eightsleep.com/Tim or use code TIM. * This episode is also brought to you by ButcherBox http://butcherbox.com/Tim! ButcherBox http://butcherbox.com/Tim makes it easy for you to get high-quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver delicious, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef; free-range organic chicken; heritage-breed pork, and wild-caught seafood directly to your door. Get ready for game day or a cozy night in with ButcherBox http://butcherbox.com/TIM! Right now, new members will get one rack of St. Louis style ribs, one pack of bacon, and a pack of pulled pork for FREE in their first box by going to ButcherBox.com/Tim http://butcherbox.com/TIM! * This episode is also brought to you by Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim! Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as ‘robo-advising,’ and they currently oversee $20 billion of assets for their clients. It takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite http://wealthfront.com/Tim and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Smart investing should not feel like a rollercoaster ride. Let the professionals do the work for you. Go to Wealthfront.com/Tim http://wealthfront.com/Tim and open a Wealthfront account today, and you’ll get your first $5,000 managed for free, for life http://wealthfront.com/Tim. Wealthfront http://wealthfront.com/Tim will automate your investments for the long term. Get started today at Wealthfront.com/Tim http://wealthfront.com/Tim. * If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. Follow Tim: Twitter: twitter.com/tferriss https://twitter.com/tferriss Instagram: instagram.com/timferriss https://instagram.com/timferriss/ Facebook: facebook.com/timferriss https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/ YouTube: youtube.com/timferriss https://www.youtube.com/timferriss Past guests on The Tim Ferriss Show http://tim.blog/podcast include Jerry Seinfeld https://tim.blog/2020/12/08/jerry-seinfeld/, Hugh Jackman https://tim.blog/2020/06/26/hugh-jackman/, Dr. Jane Goodall https://tim.blog/2020/04/16/jane-goodall/, LeBron James https://tim.blog/2018/11/27/lebron-james-mike-mancias/, Kevin Hart https://tim.blog/2020/05/20/kevin-hart/, Doris Kearns Goodwin https://tim.blog/2018/09/07/doris-kearns-goodwin-leadership/, Jamie Foxx https://tim.blog/2015/12/06/jamie-foxx/, Matthew McConaughey https://tim.blog/2020/10/19/matthew-mcconaughey/, Esther Perel https://tim.blog/2017/05/21/esther-perel/, Elizabeth Gilbert https://tim.blog/2020/05/08/elizabeth-gilbert/, Terry Crews https://tim.blog/2017/12/20/terry-crews-how-to-have-do-and-be-all-you-want/, Sia https://tim.blog/2020/08/12/sia/, Yuval Noah Harari https://tim.blog/2020/10/27/yuval-noah-harari/, Malcolm Gladwell https://tim.blog/2016/06/21/malcolm-gladwell/, Madeleine Albright https://tim.blog/2020/05/27/secretary-madeleine-albright/, Cheryl Strayed https://tim.blog/2017/03/30/cheryl-strayed/, Jim Collins https://tim.blog/2019/02/18/jim-collins/, Mary Karr, https://tim.blog/2020/11/11/mary-karr/ Maria Popova https://tim.blog/2014/10/21/brain-pickings/, Sam Harris https://tim.blog/2020/05/15/sam-harris-2/, Michael Phelps https://tim.blog/2021/01/21/michael-phelps-grant-hackett/, Bob Iger https://tim.blog/2020/01/16/bob-iger/, Edward Norton https://tim.blog/2019/10/31/edward-norton-motherless-brooklyn/, Arnold Schwarzenegger https://tim.blog/2015/02/02/arnold-schwarzenegger/, Neil Strauss https://tim.blog/2014/06/24/neil-strauss/, Ken Burns https://tim.blog/2019/09/12/ken-burns/, Maria Sharapova https://tim.blog/2017/08/26/maria-sharapova/, Marc Andreessen https://tim.blog/2016/05/29/marc-andreessen/, Neil Gaiman https://tim.blog/2019/03/28/neil-gaiman/, Neil de Grasse Tyson https://tim.blog/2019/10/03/neil-degrasse-tyson/, Jocko Willink https://tim.blog/2016/09/21/jocko-willink-on-discipline-leadership-and-overcoming-doubt/, Daniel Ek https://tim.blog/2020/12/03/daniel-ek/, Kelly Slater https://tim.blog/2020/09/08/kelly-slater/, Dr. Peter Attia https://tim.blog/2019/11/27/peter-attia-fasting-metformin-longevity/, Seth Godin https://tim.blog/2016/02/10/seth-godin/, Howard Marks https://tim.blog/2018/09/25/howard-marks/, Dr. Brené Brown https://tim.blog/2020/02/06/brene-brown-striving-self-acceptance-saving-marriages/, Eric Schmidt https://tim.blog/2019/04/09/eric-schmidt/, Michael Lewis https://tim.blog/2020/05/01/michael-lewis/, Joe Gebbia https://tim.blog/2018/03/08/joe-gebbia-co-founder-of-airbnb/, Michael Pollan https://tim.blog/2018/05/06/michael-pollan-how-to-change-your-mind/, Dr. Jordan Peterson https://tim.blog/2021/03/01/jordan-peterson/, Vince Vaughn https://tim.blog/2017/05/31/vince-vaughn/, Brian Koppelman https://tim.blog/2020/04/23/brian-koppelman/, Ramit Sethi https://tim.blog/2019/05/07/ramit-sethi/, Dax Shepard https://tim.blog/2020/11/18/dax-shepard/, Tony Robbins https://tim.blog/2014/10/15/money-master-the-game/, Jim Dethmer https://tim.blog/2020/05/18/jim-dethmer/, Dan Harris https://tim.blog/2020/11/19/dan-harris/, Ray Dalio https://tim.blog/2017/09/13/ray-dalio/, Naval Ravikant https://tim.blog/2015/08/18/the-evolutionary-angel-naval-ravikant/, Vitalik Buterin https://tim.blog/2021/03/08/vitalik-buterin-naval-ravikant/, Elizabeth Lesser https://tim.blog/2021/03/16/elizabeth-lesser/, Amanda Palmer https://tim.blog/2019/04/18/amanda-palmer-2/, Katie Haun https://tim.blog/2021/02/18/katie-haun/, Sir Richard Branson https://tim.blog/2017/10/09/richard-branson/, Chuck Palahniuk https://tim.blog/2020/09/02/chuck-palahniuk/, Arianna Huffington https://tim.blog/2017/10/18/arianna-huffington/, Reid Hoffman https://tim.blog/2015/08/31/the-oracle-of-silicon-valley-reid-hoffman-plus-michael-mccullough/, Bill Burr https://tim.blog/2017/09/17/bill-burr/, Whitney Cummings https://tim.blog/2015/06/26/whitney-cummings/, Rick Rubin https://tim.blog/2015/05/15/rick-rubin/, Dr. Vivek Murthy https://tim.blog/2020/03/26/vivek-murthy/, Darren Aronofsky https://tim.blog/2017/09/09/darren-aronofsky/, and many more. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to attempt to deconstruct world-class performers of all different types, from all different disciplines, to give you techniques, perhaps tactics, favorite books, training regimens even, recovery protocols even, that you can use. And my guests today are the best at what they do. Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett. They're very close friends. They were able to feed off of each other. Their shared stories are incredible. So, the combination of the two on this podcast was really special. Now, let me read these bios and then we'll jump right in to the conversation. Michael Phelps,

• 0:44Tim Ferriss?

  you recognize his name on Twitter, @MichaelPhelps, is widely regarded as one of the greatest athletes of all time. He captured 28 medals, including a record-setting 23 gold medals, and set 39 world records over the course of his career. Phelps utilized his performance bonus for winning eight gold medals in 2008 to establish the Michael Phelps Foundation, which promotes water safety, healthy living, physical and mental, and the pursuit of dreams. The foundation's signature program, IM, is a learn-to-swim, healthy-living, and goal-setting curriculum based on the principles and tools Phelps utilized in his swimming career, and is available through the Boys and Girls Clubs of America and Special Olympics International. His advocacy for water safety and mental health has earned the recognition of the

• 1:25Tim Ferriss?

  Boys and Girls Clubs of America, Champion of Youth, American Image Awards, that's the humanitarian award, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration Special Recognition Award, the Ruderman Family Foundation, Morton E. Ruderman Award in Inclusion, and P R Week Health Influencer 50 and 2020 Communicator of the Year, among many others. Phelps served as an executive producer and featured talent in the HBO documentary, The Weight of Gold, which explores the mental health challenges Olympic athletes often face, although it really extends to many, many more people and types of people than Olympic athletes. In addition, he has published two autobiographies, No Limits, subtitle, The World to Succeed, and Beneath the Surface, that were New York Times and USA Today bestsellers.

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  And one children's book, How to Train with a T-Rex and Win Eight Gold Medals. You can find him online on Twitter, twitter.com/michaelphelps, Facebook, facebook.com/michaelphelps, and on Instagram, @m_ Phelps00. Grant Hackett on Instagram, @Grant underscore underscore Hackett. That's two underscores, so I'll give that to you again. @Grant underscore underscore H A C K E T T. Represented and captained Australia in swimming at the Olympic Games. He collected a total of 58 medals over the course of his swimming career, with 26 gold at Olympic, Commonwealth, and World Championship levels, along with 16 world records. He remained unbeaten for 11 years in his pet event, the 1500 meter freestyle.

• 2:55Tim Ferriss?

  That's just nuts. Grant also received prestigious honors such as the Order of Australia, the Centenary Medal, and the Australian Sports Medal. Grant is a member of the Sports Australia Hall of Fame and International Swimming Hall of Fame. His qualifications include also an Executive Masters of Business Administration with first-class honors, a Diploma of Business Law, and a Diploma of Financial Services. Grant is the CEO of Generation Life, an Australia-based investment firm managing more than $1.3 billion. So with all that said, please enjoy Michael Phelps and Grant Hackett.

• 3:35Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. My God, am I in love with Eight Sleep. Good sleep is the ultimate game changer. More than 30% of Americans struggle with sleep, and I'm a member of that sad group. Temperature is one of the main causes of poor sleep, and heat has always been my nemesis. I've suffered for decades tossing and turning, throwing blankets off, putting them back on, and repeating ad nauseam. But now, I am falling asleep in record time, faster than ever. Why? Because I'm using a simple device called the Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep. It's the easiest and fastest way to sleep at the perfect temperature. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking to offer the most advanced, but most user-friendly solution on the market.

• 4:20Tim Ferriss?

  I polled all of you guys on social media about the best tools for sleep, enhancing sleep, and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean, people were just raving fans of this. So, I used it and here we are. Add the Pod Pro cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need cooling. She loves the heat and we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now, for me, and for many people, the result, Eight Sleep users fall

• 5:01Tim Ferriss?

  asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall. I can personally attest to this because I track it in all sorts of ways. It's the total solution for enhanced recovery, so you can take on the next day feeling refreshed. And now, my dear listeners, that's you guys, you can get $250 off of the Pod Pro cover. That's a lot. Simply go to eightsleep.com/tim or use code TIM. That's eight, all spelled out, E-I-G-H-T, sleep.com/tim, or use coupon code TIM, T-I-M. eightsleep.com/tim for $200 off your Pod Pro cover.

• 5:46Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. ButcherBox makes it easy for you to get high-quality, humanely-raised meat that you can trust. They deliver delicious, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-breed pork, and wild-caught seafood directly to your door. For me, in the past few weeks, I've cooked a ton of their salmon, as well as two delicious barbecue rib racks in the oven. Super simple. They were the most delicious pork ribs I've ever prepared, and my freezer is full of ButcherBox. When you become a member, you're joining a community focused on doing what's better for all. That means caring about the lives of animals, the livelihoods of farmers, treating our planet with respect, and enjoying better meals together. ButcherBox partners with folks, small farmers included, who believe

• 6:30Tim Ferriss?

  And going above and beyond when it comes to caring for animals, the environment and sustainability. And none of their meat is ever given antibiotics or added hormones. So how does it work? It's pretty simple. You choose your box and your delivery frequency. They offer five boxes, four curated box options, as well as the popular custom box. So you get exactly what you and/or your family love. Box options and delivery frequencies can be customized to fit your needs. You can cancel at any time with no penalty. ButcherBox ships your order frozen for freshness and packed in an eco-friendly 100% recyclable box. It's easy, it's fast, it's convenient. I really, really enjoy it. And best of all, looking at the average cost, it works out to be less than $6 per meal.

• 7:12Tim Ferriss?

  Get ready for game day or a cozy night in with ButcherBox. Right now, new members will get one rack of St. Louis-style ribs, one pack of bacon, and a pack of pulled pork for free in their first box by going to butcherbox.com/tim. One more time, that's butcherbox.com/tim.

• 7:33Tim Ferriss?

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  No, we're seeing an appropriate time.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 7:56Tim Ferriss?

  Michael and Grant, welcome to the show. Thank you, Tim. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 8:02Tim Ferriss?

  What's up, Grant? Thrilled to have us all together. This was the Da Vinci Code of scheduling, the Fermat's Last Theorem of coordination, because we have people in every possible time zone and multiple countries. So I appreciate you guys being flexible with making it happen. And I thought we would start with... Difficult or particularly notable races. And I'd love to start with you, Grant, because I was confessing to both of you before we started. I enjoy swimming. Actually, I didn't even learn to swim until I was in my 30s, which is a whole separate story. But I really enjoy swimming, but I know very, very little about competition and the history

• 8:45Tim Ferriss?

  of competitions and notable races and so on. Grant, can you please speak to and describe for people what happened in the 2004 Olympics in the 1500 meter freestyle?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a particularly tough Olympics for me. That year, I actually got pneumonia at the start of the year because I was just over training. I got a little bit sick and never missed a session. And, you know, I used to do sort of 8K on average per session and I used to flog myself. And then I got pneumonia, went to hospital. That turned into a chronic chest infection because I didn't stop training as soon as I came out of hospital because I couldn't because I'd missed the Olympic Games. And then when I got to the Olympics in Athens in 2004, I then, one objective was to win three gold medals. And I got two gold medals, both by 0.1 of a second, two silver medals, sorry, by 0.1 of a second and wasn't too happy about that. Then I raced the 1500 meter freestyle and I actually had to do it with a partially collapsed

• 9:41Speaker 02

  lung on my left side because it was blocked with mucus for so long. But that race, I probably pushed myself through more pain than I've ever had. And one of Michael's teammates, Larsen Jensen, was breaking the American record and by about 12 seconds doing a personal best time. And so it pushed me to the nth degree. And that was brutal. I came home, I went under a CAT scan and they said, oh, there's a massive lump on your lungs. We're going to have to inject you with iodine just to see what's going on. And, you know, they said, oh, it's a big ball and, you know, they injected me with iodine. I had to look and they said, oh, it's okay. It's okay. And I said, what do you mean? Is it okay? And they said, well, your lower left lobe has got no oxygen for it for so long that it's actually just deflated and it's just sitting up in a big ball.

• 10:25Speaker 02

  And I've got a huge lung capacity of 12.6 liters and apparently that took something like a quarter of it off. So that, that race to win that gold medal was, was the most painful moment that I've ever had in my career. And yeah, but probably the most rewarding at the same time. But certainly after that, I promised I would never, never race like that again. And, and Michael knows how much of a sore spot that four by two freestyle relay was a few days before where we lost by 0.1.

• 10:54Tim Ferriss?

  So I have two follow up questions related to this. The first is you mentioned lung capacity 12.6 liters. Do you have any idea, just as a point of reference, what average muggle heart capacity is like normie, as one of my Olympic friends put it, normies, what that is compared to a non Olympic swimming champion lung capacity?

• 11:18Speaker 02

  So when that was done, because I'm referring to actually the stats in 2004, it's 160% above what it should be for my heart, 166, and my age at the time. So yeah, it was 12.63 liters, my total lung capacity. So yeah, it's one of those genetic things that helps.

• 11:38Tim Ferriss?

  You know, it's at that level, it's with swimming and a lot of sports, it's like at the junior high level, you see all sorts of different body types. And then as you get a little bit higher, you see still different body types, but there's a point where they start to converge on very particular sets of physical characteristics. On the lung, so partially collapsed lung, that to most people listening, that just seems completely baffling because so much of swimming would seem dependent on utilizing your full lung capacity. What did it feel like? You said painful, but what does it feel like to swim at max capacity with a partially collapsed lung?

• 12:19Speaker 02

  It's not good, Tim. Let me tell you that. The way I describe that race is like putting, handcapping someone to a treadmill, putting on a max incline, max speed, and then just going for 15 minutes. That was the intensity of the pain. Normally where I felt that intense pain at the 1000 meter mark, I felt at the 500 meter mark in that race. And it's excruciating those thresholds that you have to go through. So yeah, to push myself through that. The funniest thing about that race, I hadn't lost it in eight years at that particular point in time. And I was going to the last 100 meters and it was the first time it actually turned with someone next to me with 100 meters to go. And I actually came home

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Faster in the last hundred meters than what I did than when I broke the world record by by seven seconds three years earlier. So it it actually taught me the value of competition in my worst situation that I can actually extrapolate or get more out of myself, even even feeling like that. But the pain was, yeah, I actually said, I'm going to retire. If I can't get better after those Olympics, I'm actually going to retire from the sport because I didn't want to race like that again.

• 13:27Speaker 03

  Were you doing lactate testing then, Hacky?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Well, what do you remember what it would have been after that?

• 13:35Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, it was never that high after my fifteen, but I think I hit about a twelve after that, where the the two hundred I could hit a thirteen or fourteen and the fifteen would normally be like a nine, but I produced more there because the oxygen saturation wasn't going down into my blood. So, yeah, so it went up. And that's a good point. No one's actually ever mentioned that in P.

• 13:56Speaker 03

  Well, that's something I like snap think about because I mean, like, I mean, you know me, like, I was always somebody who and still am like a just a numbers driven person. So that stuff always just sends little key messages, whether it's to me or to Bob or to Keenan, my trainer, of things you need to improve on or fix or maybe what we need to get tested for too. So.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, absolutely. No, that was the excruciating, but you still want to see stats afterwards. It's like the Olympics is over. That's the last day always of the Olympics. And, you know, you would have been doing the four by one medley probably that day as well. And, you know, you still want to do everything like, you know, see what you how quickly you remove the lactate out of your muscles after you cool down. And that's one thing that Michael and I always share is the stats. Like, we can pull out any swimming time, any split, any world record split. We know it back to front.

• 14:47Tim Ferriss?

  I was going to continue with the the tough race question and Michael, you can feel free to go there first, but I also have a question about. That training obsession, competitive drive, and also just the familiarity with the numbers, right? I do have some questions about that, but do you have particularly tough race or competition that you'd like to mention, Michael?

• 15:11Speaker 03

  I mean, the 200 Fly, I'm really happy. It was only 200 meters in 2016. Had it been 201 meters, I would have lost. So that one sticks out. Other than that, like I look back at, you know, most of my races and I can say they were pretty much pain free, but that was just because I was prepared. That literally is the only reason. So, you know, I was probably 75, 80% of the time really prepared. And, you know, 2012 and like 10 to 12 were kind of my fake 65, 70%ish.

• 15:52Tim Ferriss?

  Let's talk about prep, since that's where I was going to head next. I'm looking at a quote from your coach, Michael, from 2003, and he's referring to both of you guys. And he's asked about the similarities between the two of you. And he said, this is from an interview at some point, "They both enjoy training. It's not an ordeal for them. They're both really aware of what's going on in practice in relation to their times, speed, where everyone is, and most importantly, where they are in training compared to their goals." And I'm sure you guys get questions about competitive drive all the time, so I don't want to obsess on that phrasing exactly. But is that familiarity with the

• 16:32Tim Ferriss?

  numbers and that awareness common across other team members? Or is that something that is abnormally developed in the two of you? And if so, do you have any theories on why that is?

• 16:47Speaker 03

  Man, I think like a lot of it really is just God-given feel and ability, right? Like, you know, for me, like I'm somebody who is really a feel swimmer and I was taught, you know, the process of it. So I was taught to swim as efficiently as I possibly could at all times. So, you know, I think that's really what allowed me to be able to do the, you know, the repeats and feel the exact times with the stroke counts or, you know, whatever we were trying to do. But also just, I mean, for me, it was like, like training, training, I knew I had to be perfect if I ever wanted to. Do something that no one had ever done, right? Like, I was trying to compete and do things that people had never seen before,

• 17:32Speaker 03

  period, in the Olympics and swimming. So it's like, I had to, you know, from a workout standpoint, I had to be as hungry as possible. And, and, you know, Bob kind of says, jump. And I'm, I'm always saying, how high? And, and, you know, I always wanted to break as many world records as I possibly could. So that's why I love training. And, and, you know, I know that you can ask Aki, and I think he'd agree that you put the two of us in a pull-together training. It is, is, I mean, it's pretty much like we're, we're, we're going toe-to-toe. And no matter what it is, no matter what stroke it is, just basically trying to rip each other's head off. And, and just the pure love and competition of, of what we do. I think that, that's something that made us very special.

• 18:16Speaker 03

  But, I mean, like, the feel, I, I think that's, you know, that's something that, that only one, two, three, four percent of people, five percent of people in the top of, of all sports probably really have any idea what we're talking about.

• 18:30Speaker 02

  It's quite, it's quite funny. I think, um, just when Michael was talking, and I started thinking of the movie Days of Thunder, when they're in the wheelchair in the hospital, and they come up, they push forward, and then the other one pushes forward. That's exactly how Michael and I trained together. It's just, just constantly pushing each other and, and trying to take it to the next level. And, um, you just disregard the pain in that. The goal is always more important, the outcome is always more important than what you have to go through. I think that's the way we always approached it.

• 18:59Tim Ferriss?

  I'd love to, as background for people listening, provide some context on how the two of you know each other. And those in the swimming world will know the, the history and the similarities in trajectory and so on. But either of you could take a stab at this. Uh, so, so I'll let, uh, you know, maybe Grant, if you want to go first. Just to describe the backstory, how did you guys get to know each other?

• 19:22Speaker 02

  It's really funny. I, I remember hearing Michael, I mean, there's a lot happening in our country right now because it's a 20-year anniversary since the Sydney Olympic Games. So there, there's plenty going on. And that was Michael's first Olympics. And I remember when he got fourth, I think, in the, the 200-meter fly there. And I was like a 15-year-old on the swim, now swim team, what was it, fifth?

• 19:42Speaker 03

  Fifth, come on, man. Fourth, that would have been happier.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  That's close to fourth, though, so I'll throw it right next to it. So I remember just thinking, wow, what a freak, a fifteen year old's gone fifth. I wonder if we'll ever hear of him again. So, and then the next year, when he broke the two hundred meter butterfly world record at the world championships. Was that one fifty two? Am I right on that?

• 20:05Speaker 03

  No, one fifty four. I was four six, Fadhir. Yeah, four six, fifty four nine and, and spring.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  So, and then I couldn't believe that a sixteen year old actually did that. And, and I got to, you know, sort of know Michael from, from that moment moving forward. And then, you know, then we got to train together and, um, I think I, I just saw eye to eye on Michael on things. Like the approach towards swimming, the approach towards competition.

• 20:30Tim Ferriss?

  How did you end up training together? Just for, for those who might say, you know, you both sound like you have strong New Jersey accents, but I suspect you're from different places. How did you end up training together?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Um, back in two thousand and three, uh, Michael and his coach, Bob, just came over to Australia for a coaching conference. And, um, so he spent a few weeks in, in Australia. So we ended up training then. And, and I think at that point in time, we, we really got to, to know each other. And I saw Michael's level of application to, towards his training and all the new things that he was trying to bring to the sport, like the underwater off every single wall, which, you know, for, for your listeners, Tim, not too many people know. But when you're in the middle of a race and you're at like the two hundred, three hundred, four hundred meter mark, and then you try and push and go fifteen meters off the wall, it, it is one of the most difficult things that a person can ever do. It's like a freediver, right? The last little bit of holding their breath. Like, it is tough.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  And, and Michael started doing all these sorts of things that I thought, man, I wonder if that'll actually work. And, um, and so I, I saw just how creative and innovative in the sport that he was. And he was just a great guy. Like he was just a really, I just enjoyed hanging out. Like we go out to dinner and, and do things together. And I think, um, uh, that the basis of our friendship was kind of in, in two thousand and three, kind of springboarded from, from there. And, and every time we saw each other at meets, because we'd obviously be traveling all the time, we just always connected and got along well. We, and we had a lot of mutual respect for, for, for each other, um, and what each other was bringing to the sport. And, and also there was another, you know, sort of counterpart of mine, Ian Thorpe, who's through that era. And, and I think both Michael and I had a lot of respect for Ian.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  So, you know, we'd all spend a lot of time together and, um, and, and respect what each other was doing for the sport at that time, too.

• 22:12Tim Ferriss?

  And you mentioned, I'm gonna do a follow up here with you Grant, then I'm gonna come back to you Michael to ask you what you first noticed about Grant. To you Grant, when you mentioned innovation and new things being brought to the sport, what else did you notice? What were some other examples that you saw in Michael or through Michael?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Michael is the sort of guy that you never ever want to say that he's not going to do something. You never want to be critical of Michael because he will stick it so far up you it's not funny. And not many competitors do that. If I actually said something about one of my competitors or tried to intimidate them a little bit, not even meaning to half the time, it would get under their skin. You know, it could almost go into their performance in a negative way. Do that to Michael and I improve his performance by about 400%. That is one very early on. Even when we play golf today, if I'm betting on him on the last hole, it's like this intensity of focus and athletic prowess and everything else you can imagine

• 23:16Speaker 02

  that makes you great just comes into play, even if he's had the worst 17 holes beforehand.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  I'll go from a 20 handicap to a zero in no time and just on one hole just to stick it to him.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I keep testing it right because I'll start geeing him up before that hole just to see if my theory about him is correct and 100% of the time I am proven right. So that's probably one of the other things about Michael. And you know, that's, that's an interesting characteristic that I haven't seen in many athletes across a lot of sports that are able to have that ability to increase performance to that extent because of maybe a slight bit of criticism or questioning. So that was one of the other things I really noticed about him very, very quickly.

• 24:02Tim Ferriss?

  I have some additional questions about that, but I'll hit snooze on those. Michael, what did you notice about Grant? What were your, some of your first impressions?

• 24:13Speaker 03

  I don't know if you guys or the listeners can pick up, but I mean, as a kid growing up, like I was a massive swimming geek. I was a nerd, like I was, I was very into it. I was trying to learn anything I possibly could, but also like I, I just respected, you know, other great athletes, other great swimmers and, and growing up idolizing, you know, some of the greats that walked before Hacky and I, you know, I, I just, I, I learned so much history. So being able to understand swimming from a global level very early on, you know, through my sister in a way, and, and I, I just really connected with him and, and, and as you, as you heard with, with Thorpey as well, those two guys are probably the two closest swimming friends that I have to this day.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  You know, I feel like I was closer with, with the Aussies than I was really with the Americans and, and so it was kind of strange, but you know, like I, I, I do remember those 2003 days, you know, Bob and I were going back to some of those old sets a few weeks ago, Hacky, and pretty good seeing some of those kicking sets, some of the pulling sets, um, the underwater stuff that we were doing with fins. I mean, just everything and, and that's what I mean. Like, you know, there, there aren't many athletes that can really take it to that, that level, uh, back to back days. And, and you know, that was something that I, that I saw in Hacky and, and obviously I, I respected the hell out of and, um, you know, the chance that we got to, to spend together was always very special, always very meaningful.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  And, you know, obviously he turned into, you know, more of a brother than anything else. And it's been cool to see, it's been, oh my gosh, unbelievable. So many great stories. I'm a scatterbrain, so I'm popping all over the place and I feel like I'm gonna take some of your questions away, so I'll stop.

• 25:59Tim Ferriss?

  Feel free to bounce around scatterbrain. I've made an entire career out of it on this podcast. So feel free. Grant, I want to ask you about intensity and I'm going to do it in a somewhat sideways fashion, but both of you are known for being beasts in training and having just ungodly work capacities. And I don't know if I'm getting the hours right. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but 30 to 40 hours of training a week, maybe more at times. I want you to correct that in your answer if need be, but it seems like the combination of that volume

• 26:40Tim Ferriss?

  plus the intensity that you're both famous for would drive anyone into the ground. And I'm just curious how you prevented that from happening. If maybe you could speak to that, Grant.

• 26:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, first and foremost, around the 30 to 40 hours. That's right. We would train anywhere from some kind of five to seven hours a day, six days a week. I know Michael would do seven days a week. I think he trained like 530, 540 days straight into Beijing. So he knows all about that. Yeah. What was that?

• 27:17Speaker 03

  A little more than that, but it's okay. Five or six straight years.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I mean, that degree of application is one thing, but you're right. You have to be doing it better, far better, harder than the guy on the other side of the world. And and I think the goal, the outcome was just so strong, the desire. And I think when something is so meaningful and purposeful to you as an individual, you're willing to do anything. And it's funny, the body does get used to it to an extent. You get used to getting up at 4:45, you know, doing that eight kilometers, doing it to the intensity that you need to, then going into the gym for 90 minutes, doing that, then going back in the afternoon and doing it all again. So and it's amazing how much more you can absorb than what you give yourself credit for, but.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  One of the things I always tried to do is whenever my coach would set something like an insanely hard set, and if I finished it, I would do one or two more reps. And he was known as, you know, having one of the top three intense programs in the world from a lot of the physiologists out there. So I always just tried to take it to the next level every single time. I knew with my event, which probably is different to some of the finesse that Michael had in his events in terms of his underwater and skills, for me it was about being tough. And he's trained with a great 1500 meter swimmer called Eric Vance, so he knows the intensity and the mindset. And I was very similar to Eric in terms of, if you have to pull me out of the water after this session and put me in an ambulance, I do not care, as long as I get every ounce out of myself. And you've got

• 28:46Speaker 02

  to show up with that attitude every day, because that's how tough the guys are that you're racing. And it's just, it's just the way it is. And I think when you get the wins, it keeps you going, right? It keeps you going to the next step. It makes the bits a little bit more digestible. And I just love that feeling. I just love that feeling afterwards. And I knew when I rocked up to race day, that if I'd done that work, that no one was ever going to touch me in my race.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  And that's like the thing, though, because it's like, you know, like there are days, obviously, you don't want to go, Grant, right? Like, every day wasn't perfect for us. So it's like, you know, like, on those days, you have to be able to find that 10, 20, 30, 50%, you know, instead of zero, where you could just full on punt the whole day, the workout skip, like, be lazy, like, do whatever the hell you wanted to. So it's like, you know, like, to be as consistent as we both were, like, throughout our career, literally every, every single session, every single stroke mattered. So, you know, like, that's, like, it's, for like, for the listeners out there, like, it was the smallest, finest details you could possibly think about. You know, we, we had to think, or we, we had

• 29:54Speaker 03

  to go through and fine tune daily. Like, I, I almost talked to it as like, you're, you're, you're going to college, and, and the top level is the 10,000 level class, or the 1,000 level class, whatever the hell you want to call it. You know, if you skip a few of those classes, like, you're missing key steps that are going to help you at the very top level, when the lights are on. When you might have had a bad night's sleep, or your roommate might be sick, or maybe the food in the dining hall wasn't very good, or your air conditioning doesn't work. So it's like, all of the things that you're doing daily are prepping you for any kind of situation that you're going to face at the Olympics, at World Championships, whatever your big event is.

• 30:34Tim Ferriss?

  Totally, and I suppose that's something that wasn't in my mind when I asked the question, and that is, it's not just about developing more strength, it's not just about developing the brute attributes, it's also about the smallest technical details that you have to train to be second nature for competition.

• 30:59Tim Ferriss?

  Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. Did you know, if you missed 10 of the best performing days after the 2008 crisis, you would have missed out on 50%, 5-0% of your returns? Don't miss out on the best days in the market. Stay invested in a long-term automated investment portfolio. Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as robo-advising, and they currently oversee $20 billion of assets for their clients. Wealthfront can help you diversify your portfolio, minimize fees, and lower your taxes. It takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost.

• 31:43Tim Ferriss?

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• 32:29Tim Ferriss?

  Are there any particular, Michael, tools or techniques for recovery that you found to really pull their weight, so to speak, and have an impact? Because as a, as a mirror, you know, five foot eight meat cube, I'm not really built for hydrodynamics. I think about training, as you did, for five to six years straight, and I just can't imagine a human body withstanding that without some portfolio of recovery techniques. Was there anything that stands out?

• 33:05Speaker 03

  I mean, we had to be, like, we had to be on top of everything, you know, like, trying to, like I was saying before, trying to do something that no one's ever done before, you know, have the, give yourself the chance. It's like, you, you, you really have to approach it in every single different way possible than ever has been done before. So, you know, there, there is no blueprint for it. So for us, it was, you know, one step at a time. And for me to be able to, to swim at such a high level every single day, I, I had to be on top of, whether it's nutrition, sleeping, drinking water, you know, like, I, I treated my body like I was a Ferrari, you know, like, I treated my body like I'm a high-performance race car because I, I'm asking it to do so many things.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  So, you know, I was sleeping probably eight to 10 hours a night with a two-hour nap during the day. I was eating eight to 10,000 calories a day. Ice tub, massages, I had one, like, PT, strength conditioning guy for 15 years that was, did all of my massages, all of my stretching, all of my grassing, all of my cupping. I, I had to be super, super anal about it because I, I needed to ask my body to do so many things every single day. So, I guess I'm kind of old school, like, I, I never really got into cryo or anything like that, but, but still to this day, like, I, I work out six, seven days a week and,

• 34:29Speaker 03

  and, you know, for me to be able to do everything I need to do from playing golf, having enough energy with the kids and, and doing everything I need to do personally. Personally, I have to recover. So I am stretching probably forty five minutes a day. I'm probably ice tubbing once, maybe twice a week. I go to acupuncturists cupping twice a week. So, you know, I, I, I think LeBron said something about it earlier in the year. He spends a million dollars a year on recovery. And honestly, like, that just makes sense to me because if he's like, like, from what I just said, you know, he's asking his body to do so much at such a high level. It's like you, you have to treat it like it, like it should be treated, right? You know, you have to give it everything it needs.

• 35:09Speaker 03

  And, and, and that's the very basic stuff. So, I mean, I have all of my stats, like blood work, sleep numbers, lactate numbers, anything you can possibly imagine about health or recovery. I, I have it logged for the last fifteen years, twenty years of my career. So, I, I was extremely, you know, yeah, I mean, I, I was very anal about it because I, I, I needed to be. I was selfish in a way.

• 35:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that makes all the world of sense. And I think, I think we're going to come back to that, that focus and the, the pros and cons of it. Grant, I'd love to ask you about anything you have found helpful for sleep. And that, that comes to mind because Michael, you just mentioned it. You also mentioned LeBron James, who's been on this podcast and has a number of different techniques, including using Calm app and other technological tools for helping with getting to sleep. Did you find anything in particular? I mean, aside from training many, many hours a day, which I'm sure helps for sleep during your training or post-competitive career?

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I always found, you know, that some of the apps are great. I actually used to put on, on one of these apps that used to just have the rainwater coming down and falling on the leaves and, and those sorts of just calming type of things. It's really funny. Today, the best way I find to fall asleep is just breathing exercises and, and just focusing away from, from everything that, you know, kind of matters in your life around work and, you know, the things that you're responsible for that, you know, normally keep you awake at night. But It's quite funny, to Michael's point, just around recovery, you know, sleep is obviously the ultimate thing to rest the body. And I track everything, you know, I'm sitting here with, you know, one watch on one hand, another one on the other hand, and I don't even know

• 37:01Speaker 02

  if either of them tell the time, but they're tracking my heart rate variability, they're tracking my sleep, they're tracking my recovery, you know, and I check these stats like there's no tomorrow, like I'm still a professional athlete. I think you're just hardwired to be like that. But, you know, and it depends what phase you're going through your career, you know, there was points where I had injuries and my shoulder would just be, my shoulders would be aching at night. So I'd be sitting there with bags of peas on my shoulders just to get the inflammation down. And, you know, there's so many different sort of cycles throughout my career where, yeah, you'd have trouble sleeping. Sometimes I would feel that the pressure too much coming into competitions after time for some reason. And, and those are the difficult times where, you know, you need your recovery more than ever, but

• 37:46Speaker 02

  you're finding it hard to be able to get that rest. So, you know, what's good for one person is not necessarily good for another. But what I know today is if I just did a lot more meditation, a lot more things of slowing down, a lot more mindfulness, those are the sorts of things that would have helped me a lot more throughout my career because they're great techniques that I use today. And I probably sleep better today because of, you know, just the foundation of knowledge that I've been able to build over the time because we were just so anal and just so focused on recovery and trying to find ways to go, okay, the body is gone, how am I going to get it back to Michael's point? This is not a tractor, it's a Ferrari. And if a bolt's a little bit loose, this thing will not perform. So everything has got to be right. I used to, if I had to walk somewhere, I would sit

• 38:29Speaker 02

  down as soon as I got there, just so my hip flexors wouldn't tighten up. Because I wasn't as good a kicker as what Michael was or Ian thought. So I had to do everything on my legs. I was better on the upper body. I could do that. I could pull. It's called pulling, just, you know, you sort of tie your legs up and, you know, swim with your arms only. That was my strength, but my lower wasn't. So I used to just be fixated on that every minute of the day to make sure whenever I rocked up to training and particularly competition, my legs were loose, my hip flexors had full range, and I was going to get the most out of them. So, yeah, it's an obsession and that's the way it needs to be.

• 39:04Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I was spending some time, Grant, with one of our mutual friends who's who's deep in training right now and we were hiking and he said, this is great. I just can't do too much hiking. And I said, why not? And he said, because I don't want my ankles to be overly stable or strengthened because I need the flexibility. I want the looseness in the ankles. And I was like, wow, that's not something I hear every day.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  It's the only sport where you want loose ankles. You look at tennis players, they've got all the support in place. We're doing the opposite. We'll have a panel of wood where, you know, you've got to strap across the top and you chuck your foot in there and you're leaning back to try and create more flexion and angle. And that's the thing, like Michael and Ian Thorpe are incredibly flexible and incredibly strong and incredibly mobile. And I didn't have that last part around the mobility that these guys have because think about it, your feet are like flippers in the water. So if you get that extra bit of angle and you get that flick right at the end, it's going to propel you just that little bit more. And, you know, I'm sitting here at an Olympic Games where I've got two silver medals. I think it's over the course of about, you know, 1,200 meters of racing.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  And they're by 0.2 of a second in total. So, you know, every little bit matters.

• 40:23Tim Ferriss?

  Michael, I want to revisit a name that has come up a lot so far in this conversation, and that is Ian Thorpe. And it ties into what Grant was saying about using critical or negative or doubting comments as rocket fuel for your motivation. In the course of doing homework for this conversation, I came across a note on Wikipedia that said, Ian Thorpe.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Which quote? He has two quotes.

• 40:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  There's two of them that I remember. Go ahead. I'm interested to see what 20 has.

• 41:00Tim Ferriss?

  So Wikipedia, feel free to correct any of this. It's not so much a direct quote. It just says, Thorpe initially said that it would be highly unlikely for Phelps to win eight gold medals at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing. Phelps used the remarks as motivation and taped the words to his locker during the games. So I just wanted to fact check that. Is that true?

• 41:18Speaker 02

  100% without question. Yeah.

• 41:21Tim Ferriss?

  What were the words that you put on your locker?

• 41:24Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, I think at that time Bob and I were, were, um, you know, a lot of, a major chunk of my career, I'd say we, we were big on, you know, highlighting different quotes or times and, you know, that people had done or, um, things that we were trying to do. So, you know, like for me, like every morning I got out of bed and, and I saw my goal sheet of the times I wanted to do that year or at the Olympics or whatever written down. So when I was getting out of bed, I was getting out of bed with a purpose. Um, so then when I got to the pool, that's where that quote was. Just honestly, if I, if I was kind of having an off day, I use that as, as Hacky said, a little extra fuel.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Um, that was something that if somebody did say it was impossible, I was going to shove that so far up that I was going to make them eat their words no matter what. Um, like that was the, the, there was no if, ands or buts about it. And again, in 2016, I believe he said, uh, something along the lines of, it'll be impossible or, uh, almost impossible to see somebody over the age of 30 win an individual gold medal. And funny enough, I, I was giving him shit about it after the Olympics, uh, in 16 and, and he goes, I know how you work. He said, so I, I was helping you give that, you know, get that extra fuel

• 42:45Speaker 03

  to really give you some extra motivation to, to really make sure you kick some ass. So, um, you know, he, he, you know, because to like to Grant's point though, like I, I knew Grant probably better than any other athlete in the world. I knew Sork be better than any other athlete in the world and, and, you know, the same way for them, you know, like we, we just, we knew about each other because we, we, we all were just trying to learn whatever we could and use it into our, our everyday lifestyle to, to help us accomplish the goals that we wanted.

• 43:16Tim Ferriss?

  And to Ian's credit or defense, I will read one of the actual quotes that is in Wikipedia, in which he says, quote, "I'm really proud of him, not just because he won eight golds, rather it's how much he has grown up and matured into a great human being. Never in my life have I been so happy to have been proved wrong." So ultimately was proved wrong. And as we're talking about this translation of using the negative or the critical into rocket fuel, like you said, Grant, it is, at least in my experience, which is very limited, but it's rare to see. The one other exception that I can think of, and maybe you guys will

• 43:58Tim Ferriss?

  have seen this, is Michael Jordan in The Last Dance, where every episode, there is an example of this. And someone will say something to him, and then they'll say, fuck, shouldn't have done that. And he comes back and breaks some universal record in the next quarter. And it was so remarkably consistent. And yet, when you flash forward and you are watching this current day footage of Michael, you can't help but get the feeling that he is still very angry, but he has lost a target at which he can direct this anger. And so

• 44:39Tim Ferriss?

  I'm curious to hear from you, Michael, because I've lived in my life with a lot of anger. And have you found that to cut both ways? What has been your experience with anger during the competitive years or afterwards?

• 44:54Speaker 03

  I mean, naturally, heck, you can agree. I carry a lot of anger. And a lot of that, I would say, stems from my childhood and some of the things that I experienced. But I also think anger is really, really what would...

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Did fuel me on those days where I just didn't want to swim. You know, those, those were the biggest things. It was almost like turning a switch on in a way. You know, I, I'll say now, knowing what I know about depression, knowing what I know about anxiety, mental health and, and about myself as well. I, I know that I can't approach my life or anything that I do in my life like I did in swimming. Just because I, I guess I could say I was a professional or I was a doctor or whatever the hell you want to call me in, in the swimming world. But like I understood swimming, you know, I, I'd like to think almost better than anybody. And, you know, definitely a feel for it.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  So, you know, I, I, I don't have enough practice doing what I'm doing now in life. So, you know, I, I, I do have to take steps back and, and take deep breaths. Or, you know, I, I've found that through COVID, my wife and I's communication level has gone up another level, you know? So it's like little things like that for me. I, I, I'm constantly learning more and more about myself and about why I am how I am. So yeah, do I still get angry? Of course, but I play a lot of golf. I, you know, as I said, I work out six or seven days a week. I'm, I, I lift weights three days a week. I, um, for anywhere 60 to 90 minutes.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  And then the other four days I'm either swimming, I am riding a stationary bike or I am on an elliptical. So, you know, those are kind of outlets for me, but it does get scary at times. And, you know, I will say hacky has always been there for me through any single moment of my life, um, through those dark times, you know? But I, I can also say, you know, during this quarantine, it, you know, it's been difficult for me. Um, you know, I, I've been very open about that recently and, and, and through all of this. And, and, you know, I can imagine that it's been difficult for more and more people. And, and, you know, I'll say the one thing, you know, to the listeners out there who are listening to it, you're, you're not alone.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  You know, that's the one thing I, I truly, truly want to repeat. You'll hear me say it a lot of times through this podcast, but you know, you, you are definitely not alone with your thoughts, your emotions. But if you are afraid or you're scared or nervous, reach out to somebody for help, a trained therapist or a trained doctor. Um, this is, it's just a very uncertain time for everybody in the world. So that was a little rant, so go ahead.

• 47:42Tim Ferriss?

  I enjoy rants. That's why we have a long format. You mentioned dark times. I'd like to talk about this because I feel like both of you have been very open about this, which is a huge service. I mean, it is a huge public service to people who feel alone. And it's a huge public service to people who feel like they are uniquely flawed or are in a place of shame because the mental health and depression and so on can be very stigmatized. Still, Michael, could you speak to when you knew you needed help or when you hit rock bottom? Could you just tell the story of that moment or moments?

• 48:24Speaker 03

  The first time I experienced depression, I'd say it was back in 2004, you know, coming back after all that great success. And, you know, obviously you expect it to continue and, you know, you get back and it's good for, you know, a week or so. And then you kind of feel like you fall off the face of the earth. So for me, it was, it was just beginning to open, talk about these things, honestly. Like I felt there was a weight lifted off my shoulders, you know, these were things that I carried for, you know, probably 20 years, 15 years. And, you know, when, when I really do get into those dark times, I basically isolate myself and, and give everybody the Heisman because I, I almost feel like I am causing more stress to their life

• 49:08Speaker 03

  or I'm a burden or this, that or the other. So like I go strictly internal and almost like I pick at scabs or like, like internal scabs that, you know, really hurt. So like I almost try to inflict pain, but not literally inflict pain. So it gets bad and when it does get bad, it really spirals. And I'll say one thing, Hacky, Hacky was over here, was that two years ago?

• 49:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, two, two years ago, yeah, 2018.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that was that was one of the scariest ones that, you know, I've really experienced. And and I honestly, I feel like I'm alone. I feel like everybody's attacking me and it's just it's it's uncomfortable feeling. But, you know, I I basically, I guess the easiest way for describing it would be like a a turtle going back into its shell. I want more than anything to feel like like I am a human being because I I feel like that's what I am. You know, I I feel like, yeah, you know, I had a great talent and, you know, I put my mind to something and shit, I didn't give up. I went through ups and downs and, you know, I was able to accomplish some pretty amazing goals. But, you know, at at times, like, I feel like I'm, you know, almost a piece of meat and and an object.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  And, you know, I think especially during those times when I start going there, you know, when when I'm in dark times and start going there, it just it it's just downward spirals. So that's why, you know, I I alluded earlier to talking about, you know, how much my my mind and my wife's communication has really just grown through quarantine because I would say I had a similar incident, you know, like I had in two thousand and eighteen, where, you know, it was very scary and and, you know, I know Nicole was doing, you know, everything she could to help. And, you know, we were almost forced to grow and to change as a couple because of the current situation and and the situation at the time.

• 50:55Speaker 03

  It was difficult, but honestly, like, I think that's the coolest thing for me that that that I am so excited about with having depression or with having anxiety, you know, because it it it honestly makes me who I am. And and, you know, it's I I understand it's never going to be fixable and and it's a part of me for the rest of my life. But you know what? I think it's it's something that I want to learn more about and something I'm excited to wake up every day and have that chance to learn more about. So, um, you know, like, that's why I'm so, you know, I've spoken about my wife and I just just communicating so much more. It's it's crazy to to even think that that was possible. Um, but just going over leaps and bounds, you know, just learning more and more about how we both work and and things we need to be careful of so we don't trigger one another.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  It's been a uh almost a blessing in disguise for us. If I could just jump back to one thing that you said. Whatever you need, please, always.

• 51:49Tim Ferriss?

  And if I'm, if I'm misquoting, please, please correct me. But for those who aren't familiar, could you describe what made 2018 scary? What was the experience?

• 52:00Speaker 03

  Uh, I mean, in 2018, I actually took a pair of golf shoes and I hit myself in the head with them. That was, that was one of the very last times that I tried to inflict pain on myself. And, and I knew at that point, like that was, like that right there, I, I've never done something like that. I've never even thought about doing something like that. And the fact that I did, that right there was, was, was a message for me. It was a, you know, it was a red flag. So, you know, coming back to the house and, and, you know, I had a kind of a meltdown. But, you know, with Grant, talking to Grant, talking to, you know, my wife, you know, like that was, that was just a learning experience. Like there, like for me, like I, I basically am, you know, a pot of water, like at, at the, at the very last second, I'm ready to blow.

• 52:41Speaker 03

  And when I blow, it's pretty bad and it gets pretty ugly. You know, I was, I would say throughout my career, I'm great at compartmentalizing. I, I would say I could probably win a few more gold medals at that. Um, but that's not something to be proud of. So, um, you know, so, so I think like, you know, that's, that's one thing that I've learned, you know, to just, just to really talk about, you know, I, I've learned more about my emotions. Um, and, and if I have something I don't like, I, I talk about it or I ask questions about it, you know? So I think, you know, with the experiences that I've gone through and the struggles that I've gone through, I feel like I have almost let my guard down in a way, you know, if that kind of makes sense, you know, like, like drop my shoulders, like taking a deep breath and, and, you know, just tried to relax, you know, cause I think throughout my whole entire life,

• 53:26Speaker 03

  I've been trying to shave hundreds of a second off my time, right? And, and now it, for, for everyday life, I'm, I'm trying to slow it down. So it's, it's crazy now for me to look at life. So it's, it's, yeah, the, the last four years have been interesting. But, but that in eight, 2018, you know, that, that to this day was one of the scariest times of my life. That and 2014, after my second DUI, we talked about sleeping earlier and I have.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  Opened up more and more about this story just because it's it's a part of me. So basically throughout a whole entire life, throughout my entire life, I most of my swimming career, I we were prescribed Ambien for traveling, for trips, you know, to try to acclimate to times and and that night after my DUI, I was happy that I only had two Ambien left. That was a sleep aid that I had and and who knows what would have happened if I had more. You know, I think those two moments for me are are the two scariest moments of my life and and, you know, recently, you know, I'd say within the last handful of weeks, like I've I've had a couple of real scary breakdowns where, you know, I almost really start shaking

• 54:38Speaker 03

  because I I just don't know what to do. I'm I I yeah, I don't know how to control anything and um I I yeah, that's about it.

• 54:48Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you for sharing, Michael.

• 54:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's like, you know, like, like honestly, for for me, yes, it is. Uh, it's it's wild to think about. It's wild to talk about, but you know, it's it's what makes me me and and, you know, hell, if I can learn from just understanding why why I am certain ways or why I react certain ways, then I feel like I'm setting myself up to be a better person. And and at the end of the day, that's all I want. I I want to learn more. You know, you've heard us talk about stats, numbers. Like, I want to know stats. I want to know numbers. I want to know why, like, I just have, I don't know why, why, why to every single question that you can possibly think about. So, you know, like, I I just, I always know there are so many other options out there and and, you know, if I come to a dead end, I can reach out to one of those options or or, you know, I can backtrack a few steps and and take a different route.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  And so, yeah, you know, I I think really trying to simplify life and trying to slow things down for me is probably, those are the two things that that I would say I focus on on a daily, daily basis. Yeah, just to just to give myself a chance.

• 55:50Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. And Grant, I'm going to come back to you in just a minute because I want to do a similar expedition into some of the dark chapters to hear your stories. Before we get to that, I am looking at just a paragraph from an ESPN article that includes you, Michael, and I want to read a small portion of it and ask a question. So here's the portion. It says, "In treatment, Phelps earned the nickname Preacher Mike because each day began Chapter of the Purpose Driven Life, a book given to him by former Baltimore Ravens linebacker and good friend Ray Lewis. I don't know if you would still recommend this book or how

• 56:32Tim Ferriss?

  you feel about it, but are there any books or resources that you have found particularly helpful in your journey in experiencing these things?"

• 56:43Speaker 03

  So I have a very close friend of mine who I feel very comfortable opening up to and asking a lot of questions about. I think you know, you know, I'm talking about Hacky. He passes me a bunch of different books and some of the ones recently, I guess, like I was never somebody who liked to read books. And when Ray gave me that book, I wasn't, I wasn't spiritual in any way. Like I had, you know, I wasn't religious, but you know, I think through my journey, I 100% am spiritual without question. There is a power that's greater than me. I don't know what it is, you know, but, but through my journey, I feel like I have learned so much from the books that I have received. The Purpose Driven

• 57:25Speaker 03

  Life is one amazing one. The Power of Now is an amazing one. Ego is the Enemy is one that I go back to a lot. The Selfish Art of Not Giving a Fuck is a great one. I loved It Takes What It Takes. I thought that was a great one. Just little thing, like little books like that where I can, you know, for me, whenever I'm listening, like I tend to do audibles and, and, you know, when I'm listening to it, I really just, it's what we're all supposed to do. But I love just taking little, small pieces that, Are similar to things that I did in my career. You know, like for me to be as efficient as I was in swimming, I had to learn the absolute bottom line of every single stroke, right?

• 58:10Speaker 03

  Like I had to be as efficient as I could with my body that I was given. So it's like I've almost done that in ways. It's opened my mind and some really interesting new thoughts. It's given me, you know, new journeys to travel down, you know, roads to go down. But yeah, I mean, I would say I cycle through a lot of those depending on, as you heard before, the dark moods that I'm in. I went back to the self-torture of not giving a fuck just because I felt like I was just attacking myself too much and I just needed to get a handle of a few things and do what I'm teaching my kids, you know? Take a lying breath, take a deep breath every once in a while and relax. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, it's not about racing the clock in every single

• 58:55Speaker 03

  thing that you do in your life. So that's one, one big, big key thing for me is just trying to be as simple in every form of life as I possibly can. And it's honestly, it's looking at my kids and that's the greatest example. You know, I mean, we were talking about it earlier. My, my two oldest boys were playing with a metal trash can the other day. You know, one of the trash cans where you step on it and the lid pops up? One of them is banging, one is banging on the top like it's a drum. The other one is stomping on the lid and I was like, Boomer, what are you guys doing? And without missing a beat, he looks over and said, Dad, I've never seen one of these things before. And like I couldn't do anything but start laughing. So I was like, all right, yeah, whatever, like go ahead. Like meanwhile, there's a hundred different noises going on.

• 59:40Speaker 03

  And like my, I mean, I was going crazy, but I just, I laughed a lot. Like I'm at, I damn near fell on the ground laughing. I was like, that's what kids are like. They're, they are the best example of really living in the moment. And it's, it's, you know, for me, I feel like having, having the time that I have around, around my kids during this quarantine, like I, I feel like I've, I have a few things that I can kind of log into the memory bank and go back to when Boomer's pressing that red button that I hate to be pressed inside of me and he's trying to get my nerves and go crazy on me. So, but kids are kids and honestly, I've seen the, and one of the coolest things is They want to be us so bad and honestly, they they just love us and and you know, it's it's

• 1:00:23Speaker 03

  uh, you know, for me, told you, I told you we'd get tears.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  For for me, honestly, it's taken some of the dark times that I've been through. You know, just, you know, just literally being crying and and having your kids come up and give you a hug, like those things like that right there. You know, it's the greatest thing on the planet. So, yeah, like there, I mean, it's just been, it's been a treat and and, yeah, as a dad, it's it's the greatest feeling in the world.

• 1:00:52Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you, Michael.

• 1:00:56Tim Ferriss?

  Grant, we're gonna go back into the depths here a bit.

• 1:00:59Speaker 03

  I was gonna say, if you want to keep, if you want to keep going, you can. It doesn't bother me.

• 1:01:04Speaker 03

  I just see a second to wipe the tears off, then I'm good.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  I've already been through a whole heap of emotions just listening to that, just going back to, you know, 2018 and that day when, you know, Michael was, you know, not Michael or was Michael, you know, just the the other side of success, you know, so I just think, you know, it was tough to to listen to that. I actually have water in my eyes just listening to it because it was, you know, seeing one of your your best mates that you've known for so long and been through everything together, just go through that. It was it was brutal. It was really, really tough.

• 1:01:39Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds brutal. What if what of your personal experience? What did the dark times look like for you? Are there any particular instances that come to mind in terms of knowing when you needed help or hitting rock bottom?

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  The the first thing I'll say at the outset, it's it's really funny. As as an athlete, you you were told from day one, I mean, I started swimming when I was four and and being competitive when I was five, right? So everything throughout my childhood and throughout my sporting career was, hey, if there's an obstacle, go through it, overcome it, beat it, you're injured, you're sick, whatever, just turn into a gladiator and just keep going forward. That is your job. So and it was almost like adversity was your friend and and you used to, I call the expression now with mental health, it's like I got used to I'm fisting my way through difficult periods in life and that's not right. That's great as an athlete. That's a great attribute to have to push through pain and.

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  Overcome those challenges to get the outcome, but but in life that actually doesn't work. And I found that out the hard way and I I realized how real mental health was. So I think, you know, for for me, I I remember I've, you know, been through the ups and downs and I really never recognized that about myself because I just kind of thought, okay, just put your boots back on and keep going. But, you know, a few years ago, when, you know, I went through a a really public divorce here in Australia and everything that followed from that, innuendo and speculation and and, you know, people questioning your value set, um, just undid me and I and I just didn't realize how much it undid me and how much it took me down. And, uh, you know, I got to a

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  point where, you know, in early twenty seventeen, you know, just kind of one more thing, it's one more thing where I was sitting in a in a hotel room, completely isolated, two security guards on that floor. So no one would come near my room, you know, sitting on the front page of the newspaper and the news, just what what's going on with me. And and then I I I think the four days that I had there and I was texting Michael at the time, I I literally had over a thousand messages in my phone on WhatsApp, on my email and on my SMS, um, within about a three hour timeframe. And I think I I got back to three people and Michael was one of them. Um, and Alison Schmidt, who, um, you know, lived with Michael too, uh, were the only people that I

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  I got back to. And I think I'd use words like, oh, I'm just scared. And everyone thinks you're invincible for for what you've done. But, you know, like everybody else, you just have those vulnerabilities. And when it's so public, it just exaggerates the situation and amplifies it and creates another layer of complexity that you have to deal with. And I just made a commitment to myself, I think, at the end of that, that I'm never going to allow myself to get to this spot again. Like anytime that I I feel like, you know, you're getting pushed to that edge or things are going wrong, I'm I'm just going to adopt the strategies that I now know instead of denial. Cause I I would always put myself in denial. I I wouldn't let myself be vulnerable. And even my my fiancee Charlene now, like if I start talking about the way I'm

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  feeling in in isolation or going through a stressful period and and she goes, oh, she she is so proud of me. She goes, I just love it when you're vulnerable. And I said, oh, I feel like a bit of a pussy to be honest, but yeah, cool.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  And so it's like, you know, and then I'm like, wow, I feel better afterwards. You know, that that open and honest transparency and my relationship is better as well. So it's like, wow, doing doing this vulnerability thing, which was the number one thing that I found I had to tap into going through those stages in life and phases. Whenever they embark upon upon you and they they come across at the weirdest times too, like even when things are great and going well, sometimes that's it can be a low point. Um, after that, you have to deal with that. So, yeah, I mean, I I made that decision back in 2017. I basically lived with Michael most of that year. Um, and and he was he was my biggest supporter. Um, you know, when I went and did, you know, therapy and got some help, he was a guy, you know, drove me there and dropped me off.

• 1:05:37Speaker 02

  And we had talks till two, three AM, sometimes, you know, later in the in the morning and he'd come in and wake me up in the morning with the dogs and boomer crawling on the bed all over me, which I really appreciated. But, you know, it's it's those sorts of times where, you know, we'll just always be there for each other. But people see us as these people who have achieved great things and won multiple Olympic gold medals and and world records and all that sort of stuff. But, yeah, just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you don't, you know, fall into the same fate as everybody else when it comes to to mental health or or just being a human. And, um, yeah, I had to learn those things definitely the hard way.

• 1:06:13Tim Ferriss?

  You were mentioning the the vulnerability with your significant other. I was just having a conversation last week with a coach who you could really consider on some level a therapist. And he said to me, candor is the ultimate aphrodisiac. And it seems it seems to have a lot of benefits, not just singular benefits. And you mentioned strategies. I'd love to hear what other rules or strategies you have found or developed for yourself. So that when you when you sense yourself edging towards the brink, you are better able to reel yourself away from it.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  I think just doing everything proactively. I exercise like Michael, you know, six, six days a week. I try and make myself have a recovery day, which is hard when you've got personalities like ours. We don't, we know the importance of recovery, but we just like to keep going and going and going. So that's one thing. The other thing that I do, it's funny, I went to stop, you know, sort of drinking for a year. And then I got to a year and I was kind of like, you know what, I don't even feel like drinking anymore. Kind of, and it's not like I was ever a person who drank every day by any means. It would be far and few between, but I could go, go hard if we were, you know, having a night with the boys or something like that, or use it to escape. So, you know, I stopped drinking. So, full

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  stop. Like I got to a year and I was like, you know what, I don't even feel like that anymore. It's not something in my life that I value or I like, or it brings value to me. So I don't do that. I also make sure that I get enough sleep. That's really important for me. That's, I eat very healthy. You know, diet has been a big part and just that, that whole sort of health regime that I have to follow just to make sure that I'm in a good space. So, and the one thing that I still find difficult that I do, and you know, we just touched on it, I talk about it. I talk about where I'm at, how I'm feeling, why I'm feeling like that, instead of bottling it up. Michael and I, we're the kings of compartmentalizing things and actually just locking them away. I'll, I'll deal with that box when I need to deal with that box. But unfortunately, that box is growing and being

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  fueled. And when it goes, and it's not good. It's not good at all. And Michael and I know it is best. So I try and jump into that box and I try and work through it, try and get it out. And, and so I think for me, it's, it's all that sort of proactive stuff that I'm doing that. And I feel more settled in my, my life now than I ever have. And you know what? And I know this with Nicole, because I know, you know, Michael's wife extremely well, and the wonderful human being that she is. Just how good she is for Michael in that situation, and how much he cares and loves him, like it's actually beautiful to watch. It makes me, you know, I, I, cause I've been through the stuff with her, you know, like, and, and, you know, we've spoken about how we, we're there for Michael and,

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  you know, Charlene's the same for me, like, I, I just that partnership of someone who gets you, like, she gets me. She gets my, my drive and ambition and, and yet that, that other mental, you know, sort of fault that you, whatever you wanna call it, vulnerability, those, those things that, that are imperfect, she gets that and she likes it and works with me on it. And, and I, so I think, uh, I haven't necessarily had the right partnerships in, in, in life as well. So I think, Tim, that's a really important part of who you're surrounding yourself by, but that, that significant other can make and break in many respects too, because they've got to connect with a unique personality, which I, I know Michael and I certainly um, share uniqueness like that. So, you know, they're, they're kind of the, the, the things that really matter.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  And I, look, it's been a journey to, to get to know all those things, cause I've, I've made so many mistakes along the way, but I just know what makes me feel like more of me now and, and feels like a purpose and, and the things that, you know, help support and, and maintain that.

• 1:10:06Tim Ferriss?

  Grant, do you see a, someone like a therapist on a regular basis? Or are they used only in cases of emergency or beginning to redline?

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  I do if I've gone through, you know, a, a hard sort of period. I, I won't say on a consistent sort of week to week, month to month basis. Um, but if I am going through a stressful period, I've definitely got that support network there and, and I'll jump online, um, have a talk, get it out. Um, cause sometimes it's, it's, and I've learned this too, I didn't have really use a sports psychologist too much when I was swimming, cause I always thought, you know, I was invincible. So, and that was a weakness if I had to tap into that. Um, little did I know that would have really helped me and I'm, I might've had a, a better trophy cabinet than, than what I've got if I, if I re- recognized that at the time. But now, sometimes family members, I know I spoke about significant other then, but I know

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  family members sometimes aren't necessarily the ones you should be tapping into, cause the emotion is just too close. So having somebody a little bit more objective, has the skill set, has the understanding, someone you can have a different type of conversation with is really important. So definitely got that network in there, tap into it when, you know, the, the, the flags kind of come up.

• 1:11:17Tim Ferriss?

  What are the flags? Like, when do you know it's time to take yourself in for a 60,000 mile checkup with a professional? What are some of the signs that you notice?

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  I mean, we spoke about anger before. Michael, you know, was talking about that and the way he's able to channel it. And look, there's a negative connotation with anger because it's not always a bad thing. Sometimes anger can push you to get more out of yourself, to deliver an outcome that is amazing, you know. So but sometimes it can, when you're kind of, you're edgy, you're irritable, you're, you know, you're not sleeping well, you know, the things just aren't escaping the mind. I think all those kind of, you know, little red flags that sort of start to add up and compound and you're just not removing that that stress, that weight, they're kind of the things that you start to to recognize and go, hey, I'm going through a bit of, you know, this, this is not just a one off right now. This is not

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  a two off. This has kind of been a little bit more sustained than what I would like. And I think I have a much greater ability to check in with that now than what I've ever had where before it'd be like that little box that I said it goes into, or just let's just stuff it back in there with the others. And I don't let that happen anymore. So yeah, it's just, it's it's mood more than anything else. And if it's a sustained poor mood, then yeah, that's, that's the thing that I go, okay, we've got to do something about this. Or, you know, I, in a situation where I've got twins from a previous marriage and I miss them like crazy when they're not here. And and the impact that that had on me for so many years that I failed to even really talk about has been a big thing that I just highlight

• 1:12:53Speaker 02

  now. And I'll just go to Shelly and I'm just like, I'm really, you know, missing Jagger or Charlize or, you know, and I'll just start to talk about it. And then all of a sudden, you know, you kind of get on the other side of that. So they're kind of the things that I recognize now that that aren't as big a blind spots as they were previously.

• 1:13:10Tim Ferriss?

  And when you talk to a professional, if you do, what does the format look like? Is it more about really just getting it off your chest and talking to someone? Or is there a particular type of guidance or a format that is helpful to you?

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  I I have a guy who I I tap into and um he's almost got um a comical element to the his style, which I rejected. So I I I love that because he's extremely intelligent, very, very bright. And look, I'll I'll write down the things that I'm feeling and that that I I feel like I've got to really check in with and and get through and ask questions about. So I'll do that. So that's the structure I come in with. He'll then just pull out stuff on all of that, that just makes it um takes the emotion out of it almost. It it almost goes, it's more pragmatic. He goes, you know, thi- this is why that would happen. This is why you feel like that. You know what? You you're kind of catastrophizing that. That's not as big as you seem like. And then he'll make, you know, comparisons and perspectives

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  uh around other people or other situations. And it kind of gives you a different view. And it's like he just comes in and provides these additional lenses that I didn't have that he's just given me. And I kind of cover off all the topics like that. And then and we have a laugh through it all, too. Once you kind of get on the other side of each of those areas. And and so I find that that style um has really worked with me. It's a good question, Tim. No one's ever actually asked me that before.

• 1:14:35Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, well, if I can get one novel question in, I'll be quite pleased with that. Uh, you guys have been interviewed five hundred million times. So I'm I'm glad to to to give myself a pat on my bald head for that one. I and I'll I'll follow it up, uh, because you you mentioned something that I find very interesting, and that is sending something in written form to this therapist beforehand. Is it a stream of consciousness? I'm feeling this because of this and that. Is it just like one gigantic paragraph or page? Or is it something else? That just seems like such a time saver to provide that context to someone in advance, so they can actually put some some thought into how they might respond to you?

• 1:15:18Speaker 02

  I think you, I mean, you probably got the sense through the chat, you know, Michael and I, we're very analytical. We think through everything and every situation and every outcome. That's the reason we we know, you know, every time with respect to our events and, you know, the timeline and history of our sport so well. And and I think if I'm going to approach something, I might as well do it properly and get the absolute most I can out of it. So it's just dot points, um, dot points and specific areas, like things that have been on my mind. Situate.

• 1:15:45Tim Ferriss?

  Dot points, dot points or bullet points, I guess.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  In Aussie term, yes.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. I can, I can decipher all of that stuff.

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:15:55Speaker 03

  I'm fluent, it's good.

• 1:15:57Speaker 02

  When, when I go over and, and stay with Michael, um, we'll, we'll go out and I'll say something and he'll repeat it for me. And I was like, yeah, what, what he said, because no one, everyone sort of looked at me like I've got two heads, but Michael, Michael is the ultimate at deciphering Aussie slang. He knows it.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. So, so bullet points is, is exactly what I jot down.

• 1:16:19Tim Ferriss?

  Dot points.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, dot points. Yeah. So, yeah. And so for me, that, that works. They, they kind of just, I cover the areas, the topics that have been on my mind or the situation. Not normally it's more of a situation for me. Day to day, I'm, I'm pretty good. It's, it's more if I've come across something that's sustained stress or I can't work through myself. And look, to, to be honest, that seems to be happening a little bit less in my life, but to say, in saying that, I know it could intensify at any point in time. And, and I recognize that you've got to always stay on top of those things. And, and it's been great for the work that I do now and, and, and the life that I have and the dad that I am. I, I think I've just improved across so many different areas. And, and it's probably where I refer back to sport. I'm like, damn, I wish I used that sports psychologist a lot more and tapped into that.

• 1:17:02Speaker 02

  I, I didn't even recognize vulnerability for, for a split second throughout basically my entire career. And I feel like that was a bit of a disaster now. And it actually probably would have set me up, um, better for, for post sport career as well.

• 1:17:15Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it seems like a lot of superpowers have on the other side of the coin, super weakness is almost by definition, right? Because if you have a, if you have a hyper focus on anything in life, by definition, you have to neglect other things. You cannot, you only have so much attention to slice and dice, right? Uh, and if you're using compartmentalization as one of the tools for optimizing as a competitor, which every competitor I've interviewed on this podcast seems to be very good at. Then sort of a price associated with that when it's when it's applied more broadly

• 1:17:55Tim Ferriss?

  speaking. Michael, do you do you meet with therapists or professionals on a regular basis?

• 1:18:02Speaker 03

  I'm online all the time. I mean, with everything with traveling as much as I do, I spend a lot of time on Talkspace. I've worked with Talkspace for a few years now. And honestly, for as much time as we're on our smartphones, it's just kind of a no brainer. But but also besides that, like, like the hackeys point, I'll be the first one to admit, I still compartmentalize a little bit. But I'll say, I don't think I would make the podium anymore if I was competing in it. So I think I've definitely improved. But my big thing is just I I pile things up sometimes. And like, I can't agree with what Hacky said, and what you were saying as well, Tim, like, when we did that in our career, like, like, I was almost

• 1:18:43Speaker 03

  selfish in a way where I everything I was doing in my life was based around something, every single decision I made. And now with the family, it's not that way. My life is different. So I have to take a step back and almost reassess everything. That's what I was saying, like, you know, really simplifying everything to the smallest form, because that's, that's what Grant and I, you know, did during our career. And honestly, like, I was sitting here taking, you know, notes, listening to, you know, kind of what Grant was Grant does when he's, you know, kind of feels himself, you know, spinning. I literally was like, Oh, my gosh, that's exactly what I had to do if I wanted to learn underwater dolphin kick, or, you know, like, I had to break it down to the simplest form. So, you know, like, that's really what I have to do more and, you know, give myself, you know, a little bit more

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  credit from time to time, where I'm as hard on myself as I am.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  You are the toughest person on yourself that I know.

• 1:19:35Speaker 03

  Oh, it's brutal, bro. Like, bro, man, I'm sitting here looking at, like, I mean, I can't even, yeah, some of these names that I have on my desk, I'm not, I'm not going to repeat. But, I mean, Hacky, like, you know, like, I also, like, to Hacky's point, like, I love writing stuff down, writing stuff down to see, you know, like, especially with dates, you know, because times for me are so important. So if I know I'm going through a dark phase, like, Was I writing like, why was I thinking these things? So, you know, like here, like I've felt alone or I've felt dark lately. Um, so those are things that I have written on my calendar. So like, if I sit down, I see that and I'm like, why was I feeling dark? Like I have so much to be, you know, happy for. I have so much to be proud of. Like, there's so many amazing things going on in this world with me, with my life, with everything.

• 1:20:20Speaker 03

  Like, why am I dark? Why am I afraid? Why do I feel worthless almost? So, you know, like I, I feel like writing stuff down really helps. And, you know, like, that's why, like, for, for listeners out there in particular, like, if you guys find ways to simplify things, because we, we live in a, over a crazy, crazy moving fat, crazy fast-moving world where, you know, there, there's always things trying to get our attention. So if we can simplify things and focus on what's important to us, you know, I think it just, it, it makes our life easier, right? Like, there's, there's less stress to worry about. So, and, and you hear Hacky, like Hacky talking, like communicating. Shit, I made the joke that I learned how to communicate at the age of thirty. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I laugh about it because I like,

• 1:21:01Speaker 03

  I was really good at compartmentalizing, but like, that, that's not good. So, you know, like, that, that's, that's why I, like, I, I talk so much about this, this quarantine and, and, you know, how much it's forced us to become vulnerable in a way. Because there's so much unknown. So it's like, if we want to give ourself a chance, then we have to do something different. So, you know, if it's opening up and talking about something that is scary, try it, you know, because like, I'll say, like, all this stuff that, that, you know, I've, I've talked about, you know, throughout, that that happened throughout my career. I mean, should I carry that thing along? Like, all that stuff along for ten years. So, you know, like, having that out and, and open,

• 1:21:40Speaker 03

  not, it, one, makes it so much easier to talk about, but two, it, like, there's, there's so much less weight on my shoulders. I feel, I feel normal, you know, like, like talking about this stuff that I know there are so many other people that go through the same thing, or in similar different ways. Like, like, I, I just, I, I don't know, like, I, I just, I feel so much better, like, my shoulders drop. And, and that's just something that I, I will always say and, and try to push.

• 1:22:07Tim Ferriss?

  There's a weight, there's a weight to secrets or keeping things inside, or there can be. And it makes me also want to mention that there is a, a new documentary, HBO documentary out called The Weight of Gold, in which you're featured very heavily. Why be part of that? And I think we've probably mentioned a lot of the reasons why, but and maybe a better question, because that's kind of a lazy question and I should know better. Better question is, how does it feel having done that?

• 1:22:42Speaker 03

  Uh, incredible.

• 1:22:44Tim Ferriss?

  Describe it feels, yeah, yeah, yeah. Please, please, please say more. And, and just for those who don't have any context, The Weight of Gold is an HBO sports documentary, very, very well shot, exploring the mental health challenges that Olympic athletes often face. Just wanted to provide that since I didn't explain it, but could you, could you expand, say more about

• 1:23:04Speaker 03

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 1:23:05Tim Ferriss?

  What it felt like to do that?

• 1:23:06Speaker 03

  As you've heard, or as people have seen or read, I, I've struggled, you know, throughout my whole career. So, you know, in 2016, where I was probably, you know, more aware of just life in general and everything that was going on, more than I ever have in my life. So, you know, at that point, I, I saw that there were other athletes that were going through similar things like I was, you know, going through opening ceremonies and seeing athletes, you know, almost body language. Like, I, I feel like that's something that I've learned to read really well over, over, you know, throughout my life. But I started like reading people, but I also started hearing things that people were saying, you know, seeing things that people were posting or this or that.

• 1:23:47Speaker 03

  And I was like, oh, like literally, I said, oh shit, this is a lot bigger than I thought. You know, because I, I always knew it was, you know, mental health in general was something that was very big. But I almost like it, I felt like it smacked me in the face at the 2016 Olympics and, and, you know, losing way too many of our family members in the Olympic world, uh, over the last five years. Like I, I want to cry every time I think about it. So, you know, for me-

• 1:24:15Tim Ferriss?

  And by losing, you mean suicide?

• 1:24:17Speaker 03

  Committing suicide, yes. So for me, to, to be able to do this documentary with the athletes that we had, who were so vulnerable, I honestly, I can't thank them enough for opening up and, and, you know, being them, uh, being their authentic self and, and filling, I guess, sharing some stories about, you know, what we- Experience and what we go through, but you know, as we stated earlier, this is something, you know, there's a massive stigma around mental health and this is something that that, you know, a journey that I've started on and I'm breaking the wall down as fast as I can. And, and you know, the more that people stand up and talk about their stories and their struggles, we're going to break it down piece by piece and, and you know, doing this documentary,

• 1:24:59Speaker 03

  I feel is an awesome first step and, and you know, just kind of a raw look at, at some of the things that go through our heads and, and that we experience and we're not this, this statue. You know, we, we are a human being and it, it was something, yeah, like I said, I can't say enough. I'm super proud of it. It just shows just, I'm not like I'm, I'm, I was a kid in a candy store working on it. This is something it's, it's, you know, it's like my baby. So, you know, I've, I've, you know, I guess really since I opened up in 2014 about my struggles with depression and anxiety, you know, I, I, you know, really kind of took it by the horns, so to say, and, and you know, this is my mission. Like I'm going to do everything I can, one to learn as much as I can about

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  mental health, but also, you know, try to help as many people as I can, break this wall down. The suicide number is continuing to climb and it frustrates the hell out of me. I mean, I, I, I read a story last night going to bed of two brothers that, that are on a show over in London. And honestly, I, I just, I, my heart hurts because I, I feel some of the pain that they go through. And I mean, I think the biggest thing I, I want people to know that there is help on the other side. You know, I've, I've been, and I've seen a lot of really dark places throughout my life, but you know, I, I also know that I'm not alone. So when I look at that word on my, on my desk, like that I wrote down, like I am not alone, but that's, that's part of my darkness and, and you

• 1:26:26Speaker 03

  know, I think just always, always knowing that, that, that there is somebody out there that that's what we all have to realize. No matter what we're going through, somebody is there to hold your hand, to give you a hug, to, you know, whatever it is that you need, because we, we, we are not alone in life and, and honestly, we can't do anything in life by ourselves. Like it's really hard if you think about it, you know, and if we can include other people that that love us and want to be around us, then it makes life 10 times better. That was one thing that I had to learn the hard way with compartmentalizing throughout my career is I couldn't do it by myself. It was impossible. I couldn't handle the the stress, the of the emotions and the feelings, all that stuff that was building up inside of me while I'm trying to perform at the absolute best.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  Like it's it's it's impossible. It's unhealthy. So, uh, you know, I think that's that's the biggest thing, you know, really being able to do it and put it together. And, you know, I was I was honestly frustrated with how long. Uh, I mean, I'm somebody that wants stuff done fast. So, you know, I never realized how long the process, right? So I I had never really realized how long the process of making a piece like that takes and and to be honest, I'm extremely thankful that that it it came out. And we were able to launch it during COVID. Because it's it's the single, you know, that was the one thing that I was deathly afraid of when when everything started happening was the the impact on everyone's mental health that this was going to take.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  And and we've seen suicide numbers increase. So, you know, I I can't stress enough how important it is to, you know, you have something going on inside of you that's not normal. Say something to somebody, write it down, something, don't hold on to it. You know, I think life is life is definitely too damn short. And, you know, as as I said earlier, I want to slow down time as much as I can and and be able to enjoy everything that that that life has to offer.

• 1:28:21Tim Ferriss?

  Totally. And one way of slowing down time is sharing time with others.

• 1:28:25Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:28:25Tim Ferriss?

  And and it's and it strikes me that, of course, on one level, I respect both of you tremendously as just icons of competition, as as champions of achievement. But what impresses me even more than that is the model of male friendship and brotherhood and mutual support that you guys have demonstrated, uh, certainly privately, but also publicly. And I'm just so happy to have both of you on this call because that seems.

• 1:29:04Tim Ferriss?

  So foundational to your success as not athletes necessarily, although that could be part of it, but as as humans is having that deep bond and mutual support. And like you said, Michael, even if you are out there and feel alone, which is very easy during COVID, and it's easy all the time in modern industrialized cultures, because we are very much compartmentalized physically and separated from a lot of interaction and cohabitation and so on. There are tools like Talkspace. There are professionals who are available.

• 1:29:44Tim Ferriss?

  And just reaching out to someone can release so much pressure in the system. And there are options. So I feel like the weight of gold as a doc coming out now is is great timing during very bad times for for millions of people. So I couldn't agree more. And Grant, I realized I did not come back and ask you one of the questions that I'd asked Michael, which was related to books or resources that you've found helpful. My audience is always interested in books, certainly any resources or tools. But are there any books

• 1:30:24Tim Ferriss?

  that come to mind for you that were either particularly helpful with respect to challenging times or books overall that you've recommended or gifted the most to other people?

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  Oh, I think I gave the subtle art to Michael. So that was that was one one.

• 1:30:44Tim Ferriss?

  Which was that?

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  The subtle art of not giving a fuck. So.

• 1:30:48Tim Ferriss?

  Ah, yes. Yeah, Mark Metzen.

• 1:30:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So that one, I I just reread that probably a couple of months ago, that that book always just takes me back one or two steps and renews my perspective on situations because, you know, I'm I'm a hyper focused individual. When I get onto goals and tasks and things that I want to deliver, like I sometimes get the blinkers on in such an intense way that. I I can lose perspective on things around me. So I'm really a lot more aware and conscious of that now and I make sure I've got things like that. His follow up book was great. I I really enjoyed that. I actually read that and bought it for a mutual friend of ours, Tim Matt Target over for his birthday last year in December.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  So I I enjoy his reading. I I read a lot of journals. I even read a lot of Harvard Business Review articles. There's one I like in particular, and it's really funny. This will sound a little bit counterintuitive around mental health, but it's about mental toughness. And there's, you know, they've got the sort of mini books that you can you can read, all the journals that they've had around that particular subject matter. And I love that because it resonates with me, you know, a hundred percent. So I find I actually need to not just read things that give me renewed perspective, but actually things that make me feel more like me. And that's one of the things that the psychologist that I've dealt with, because, you know, we always talk about purpose and meaning and all this sort of stuff. And he had this really

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  interesting thing that he said to me, because, you know, people have this high expectation of you once you've achieved certain things in life and you have a greater expectation of yourself more than anybody else. And he just said to me, he goes, just do more things that make you feel like you. And that has always stuck with me because it's like, okay, what do I value? What do I truly value? And it's funny, that upon the basis of that saying or that statement, I I really got back to my own core values. And then I did things that sort of checked into to those values. And it's funny, because I always had people

• 1:32:53Speaker 02

  tell me, oh, Grant, just just slow down. Just, you know, enjoy it. Just relax. Don't, you know, don't try and do everything to the top level every single time.

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  I hate I hate when people say that shit. God, it pisses me off so much.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  I tried that. And you know what? I realized that's not me. Like, doing mediocre is not me. I can't stand that. And it was funny, all the things that disconnected with my value set destabilized me. And so I focus on reading things, reading journals, doing things that connect more with me. And those things like mental toughness, reading about Navy SEALs, reading about different training strategies, that sort of stuff I really love. And I find that an escape for my personality. So that's quite interesting. And then I love commerce and love business. So I read a lot of different business books and articles. So they're kind of the things that I just enjoy. So yeah, it's always just reconnecting with purpose for me that actually

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  slows my mind down, gives me perspective. And then, yeah, the books that I just referred to certainly have helped me round out that view even more so.

• 1:34:04Tim Ferriss?

  Do you have any favorite, since you mentioned it, I know this might seem off topic, but it's not, since this is about your lives and not just one facet, any particular favorite business books? And I'll just mention for folks also, Harvard Business Review has a book, which is HBR's 10 Must Reads on Mental Toughness, and features Martin Seligman, Tony Schwartz, Warren Benes, and others. And that's $24, $25. You can find that online, and I'll link to that in the show notes. Are there any business books that are real standouts for you?

• 1:34:37Speaker 02

  There's one I'm reading at the moment that I'm really enjoying, which is Phil Knight's Chudal.

• 1:34:42Tim Ferriss?

  I've got to read this book. It's, I've got to read it. It's been recommended to me 100 times.

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'm in the middle of that. I've got to say, that's definitely one that springs to mind. That's definitely, definitely top of the list. Other ones that stand out, I mean, probably that one for now. The other ones that I enjoy reading, I enjoy just general sort of leadership. So I read a lot of stuff that relates to that in business and knowing and understanding what the fundamentals are. I've probably got, if I walked into my bedroom, seven or eight books that I want to read that I haven't at the moment. I always enjoy reading things around Warren Buffett. I've read a lot of books that relate to him, just on his mindset and his approach towards things. Because the one thing that I've really found in high performance, you don't actually have to read

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Always on your specific subject matter because and when it comes to business, I always find I read articles mostly like strategy articles or you know, growth initiatives or you know, what was the change in Boeing when you know, Airbus when Airbus said, okay, we're going to do the A three eighty. But you know what, if we get this wrong, it's actually going to send us bankrupt. You know, what was the inflection point where business became great and I enjoyed Jim Collins, like his books, Good to Great, are really interesting just to learn about. You know, I I find any sort of success story is the same. It is just a daily grind of mundane things that you just have to keep getting right and improve by point one of a percent and then do it again the next day, then do it again the next day. Then eventually, you know, momentum and the flywheel, as it's referred to in that book,

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  kind of click into place and and and then all of a sudden, many years later, you've got this outstanding result that people think is overnight success that took you fifteen years to get there. So that's the way I I find most things work. And so I love reading around the principles of, you know, high performance and success in any single field, whether it's a Navy SEAL, whether it's business, whether it's sport, whether it's, you know, in in music, you know, the school of Julia, like whatever it might be, those principles are the same. And I'm always trying to to identify those because I've got to be honest, I love it. Like, I'm passionate about it, I'm passionate about learning about it, talking about it, uh, reading about it. So, yeah, they're they're probably always the the things that I try and um, tap into. And and again, it comes back to that that saying that I said before, just do things that make you feel more like you.

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  That's that's not everyone's cup of tea. Winning Olympic gold medals is not everybody's cup of tea because the sacrifice you have to make for that for most people is probably not often worth it. But for the two guys you've got on this call, we'll we'll do anything to to get those things and sort of have the same approach to to everything else that I I try and achieve or want to achieve.

• 1:37:18Tim Ferriss?

  I love that expression, doing more things that make you feel like you. I've never heard anything or never heard the message worded quite that way, but it's very succinct and very. Deep if you if you spend some time on it. So thank you for sharing that. Michael, are there any other books or resources that that you would like to mention just to give you another dip at the well?

• 1:37:42Speaker 03

  I was sitting here looking at my like the little bookshelf that we have behind. We have a scatter in here, but I was sitting here looking at these books and I there's there's two of them that popped into my head that one I've gone back to. So for trying to slow things down, I tried to mix in more of a daily reading. So Mark Nepo has a good one, The Book of Awakening. And then the Daily Stoic. I mean, I feel like some of those things, you know, you know, you can really just like almost just take a step back, right? Take a deep breath, let it like, you know, read a quote, read, you know, a single page, whatever it is, let it marinate and and, you know, just for me, it's just something that's so easy to do, but something that's so awesome to do to start your day.

• 1:38:25Speaker 03

  You know, I just feel like it. It just gives you some kind of purpose of what you're doing and and, you know, when when life is too fast, again, it gives you that second to take that step back.

• 1:38:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Daily Stoic and ego is enemy. You got a whole lot of Ryan Holiday on your bookshelf.

• 1:38:42Speaker 03

  It's funny because I I just got the Daily Stoic from my coach or my my old coach, sorry, Bob Bowman, and I've gotten a few of the other books, as I was saying earlier, from, you know, Seth Hackett, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, he he's he's like, he's one of like my favorite human beings on this planet to have a communication or a conversation with, excuse me. But some of the books that he's given me really have like, like he he, I feel like he has a really good understanding about me as a person and how I work.

• 1:39:17Speaker 03

  And and he's a very, very smart human being. So I feel like some of the things that he's given me to read are, again, back to my point, just simple ways for me to understand something that I might be too hard on myself with. Or, you know, I might be too hyper focused on one thing, right? So, you know, almost giving me that bigger picture, you know, trying to be that lake instead of being that glass of water. So. Yeah, I think like a lot of, a lot of the books that I have that I'll rifle through time and time again. Uh, I think have been super helpful just to, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think more, more than anything, just give me a chance. Like I, I, I feel, you know, for me, like a, a lot of my life was focused on swimming and, and um, that really was it.

• 1:39:59Speaker 03

  Like, you know, it's hacky, hacky knows, being an Olympian, your whole life is focused on one thing. Nothing else matters in life but that. I'm honestly really learning how to live on dry land, so to say. Um, you know, I, I kinda made the joke throughout the last, uh, last few years. I feel like I've taken more strokes in the swimming pool than I've taken steps on land. Um, so it's, uh, it's, it's, it makes it challenging when you have a freight train trying to come down the middle of a tree, uh, the, the street with no tracks on it. Um, so it's, it's been difficult at times slowing me down, but, but I feel like some of those simple, you know, kind of different approaches to looking at things.

• 1:40:41Speaker 03

  Um, for me, just, uh, have benefited so much just because I, I, I can't expect to fill up everybody's cups. If my cup isn't filled up, right? Like I have, you know, I have three boys and, and amazing wife and, and a household here that I'm, I'm in charge of my roles, right? So i- i- if, if I'm not taking care of myself and, you know, filling my glass up by taking the time that I need for me, I have no shot in being able to be a good husband, a good friend, a good dad. So, you know, I, I, I just want, I wanna have a chance and, and I feel like that's what I did in my career, my preparation. It was the process, like I, it was the whole process of it all that, that I learned.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  But, you know, the preparation was, was, you know, so key. So it's, it's, yeah, just trying to slow things down. I don't know. I bet any of that makes sense, but yeah, it's, it's something that. It does. Um, yeah, it's been, it's been enjoyable, but, but as you can imagine, something that's been extremely challenging at times. You know, as you hear Grant and I talk about, we wanna go fast and we, we like, we, we wanna get to, uh, point A to point B as fast as we can, the fastest way, but also the most effective way. So how can we do it? You know what I mean? So it's like. Mine's gone, yeah.

• 1:41:55Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 1:41:57Tim Ferriss?

  Sometimes you want to be the lake and other times you want to take a jet ski at 100 miles an hour across the lake and some days it's hard to decide which one you want to do.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:42:10Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, man. Well, this, this has been such a fun conversation for me and I just have one more question and it's, it's sometimes a difficult question. So if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but well, I'll give it a shot. And that is, actually, before I get there, I have to say, I've also found Stoicism very, very helpful and it's, it's such a small world because I actually published the audiobook versions of both Ego is the Enemy and The Daily Stoic, believe it or not.

• 1:42:41Speaker 03

  I've listened to your voice a lot. I've heard it a lot. I think you've done some stuff with Trevor Mowat as well, I believe.

• 1:42:47Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I, I may have. Yeah. It's, it's.

• 1:42:50Speaker 03

  I might be wrong. I might be wrong.

• 1:42:52Tim Ferriss?

  It's just such a, such a, such a small world. So let me ask a question that sometimes doesn't work because it is, is sometimes a hard question. I'll ask it of, of both of you. And the question is this, if you could put anything on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, right? It could be an image, a quote, a question, a word, anything non-commercial on a billboard to get something in front of billions of people, what would it be? And if, if either of you want to take a stab at it, feel free to jump.

• 1:43:26Speaker 03

  If you want, Hacky.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:28Speaker 03

  If you want to go, go ahead.

• 1:43:29Speaker 02

  Through my head, but you go first, bud.

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  Uh, I mean, I, I would just say it's okay to not be okay. You know, I think that's something that, that for me, um, you know, even in my darkest, scariest moments, like that's, that's the one thing that Nicole always says to me, um, you know, and she'll throw her arms around me or ask if she can give me a hug sometimes, you know, if I am just like, if I really want to be alone, like that's the one thing like she'll, she'll ask me because sometimes I just need that moment by myself. She'll ask to give me a hug. My wife will ask me to give me a hug. So, you know, like it's, it's she, like, we've just been able to, I mean, again, I can't say it enough, grow so much. So, you know, I, I would say again to everybody out there, like, it's okay to not be okay and, and you're not alone. Like those, those two things I think can just go together. Just, I mean, with everything we've talked about on this call, uh, it's just,

• 1:44:18Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, it's. And in a difficult time, it's it's something to just simplify it. Take a step back, deep breath and relax.

• 1:44:27Tim Ferriss?

  Those are great. Those are great. Grant, any thoughts?

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, the first thing that popped into my head, and I often think that's always the right and best answer was if you want to put something on a billboard, um, I just be you. Be you.

• 1:44:39Tim Ferriss?

  Be you.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Two words, very simple, because the more you do the things that, uh, you know, make you feel like yourself, or it brings out your personality, brings out who you are. Makes you feel good about yourself and you don't have to be something that's false or superficial or create an image for anybody else or anything else. And I think once you get back to that simplification and to Michael's point, I think, um, you know, often you feel best about yourself. Often you find the things that you enjoy doing more often, often enough, you're living a life that just makes you feel good about yourself and, um, and, and, you know, connect better with the people around you. So I think, um, just be you and feel comfort comfortable in that.

• 1:45:20Speaker 03

  Excellent. Yeah, good, man. Like, honestly, that's like, I, I, I could just hearing you say that through, through the last, you know, hour that we, that you've mentioned it to me, like, it's brought up so many things that that would help me just like simplify life and it just totally makes sense. You know, like there are times like I, I, I can say like, I, I mean, I, I play golf with, or I've had the chance to play golf with a lot of professional golfers and, and, you know, I recently got to play with, you know, got to know John Rahm a little bit. So the first time playing with them, I'm like, shit, like, I want to try to play as good as I can. Like, I want to be in my, you know, A game, yada, yada, yada. And I'm like, well, that's not me because I don't have the time and the preparation to perform how I expect to perform. So I, I can't expect to be somebody else. I have to be me.

• 1:46:05Speaker 03

  That's something that, that, you know, I, I struggled a lot with and at times still do, you know, with that, like where, where I feel like sometimes I am just a swimmer. And because I feel like that's what the story has been, right? You know, every single headline is about swimming, swimming, swimming and, and, you know, finally now like that, like, that's why I've really, I'm, I'm so happy with everything we're doing with mental health, but, you know, like, that's, that's one thing that I really just saw myself as and, and not a human being. So, you know, if I, I want to say thank you because I like that, that quote right there is be you, um, you know, I think can simplify a thousand things for me. I don't know how I've never heard you even say that, but thanks. I appreciate you bringing that up today.

• 1:46:47Speaker 02

  I had a brain fart like you before and it just popped into my head. I just went with it.

• 1:46:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, this is, this has been really fun to have both of you on. And for everybody listening, we'll, we'll link to everything in the show notes as usual at tim.blog/podcast. So you won't miss anything. The documentary that was mentioned is The Weight of Gold. That is an HBO documentary. Grant, people can find you on Instagram at Grant underscore underscore Hackett, H A C K E T T two underscores. And then Michael, people can find you on Twitter at Michael Phelps, Facebook, Michael Phelps, Instagram at M underscore Phelps zero zero. Is there anything else that you gentlemen

• 1:47:36Tim Ferriss?

  would, would like to mention? Anything else that you'd like to add as a closing comment or, or anything at all?

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  Um, I gotta say, I just, I'm so proud of Michael as, as a friend, you know, he knows I love him like a brother and, you know, but, um, people have seen him as a product, right? Because the guy's so successful and so amazing and, and achieved things that no one else ever has in the history of sport. And, um, but to hear how open and honest and transparent and forthright he is around mental health, because I know he wants to help other people, to, to me is just an outstanding characteristic. And, um, you could never underestimate the strength, but Michael always has that strength, um, to, to do that sort of stuff. So yeah, man, that was, it was awesome to hear you today. It was, it was emotional for me sitting on the other side because I've been there.

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  I've been right there with you, sitting in the closet, talking.

• 1:48:32Speaker 02

  Launching my phone, right?

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  But no, but I think, um, yeah, no, that's, that's just been awesome. And I've really enjoyed that today. And, um, look, I'm sure that, that will help a lot of people. And, and I know that's exactly what you like to do.

• 1:48:52Speaker 03

  Honestly likewise, bro. I mean, we've both been through our fair share of ups and downs publicly and privately. And, you know, as you know, my circle is super tight and I love you like a brother. And honestly, it's awesome to see the journey that you've been on and honestly, just welcoming a new baby. Geez, dude, it's so cool, so special, awesome to watch. I miss you like hell. As selfish as it is, I wish you lived next door. We need our compound.

• 1:49:25Speaker 02

  I know, we'll still do that.

• 1:49:30Speaker 03

  Tim, honestly, this has been great, you know, for me, you know, even though with the relationship and as close as I am with Hacky, I've been able to learn even more about him today and, you know, I'm excited that we, somebody finally put this together, the two of us, to be able to just chat for two hours. Honestly, it was a treat and, you know, we've listened to a lot of you over the years. I look forward to listening to a lot more. If it's okay, I'd love to grab your email from your team and stay in touch. And honestly, if you have any books or anything, I truly add something that, as I said, I think I've read more books in the last five years

• 1:50:15Speaker 03

  or listened to more books in the last five years than I have in the previous 30.

• 1:50:21Speaker 03

  You know, so I think it's funny how life works and how open I am or how much more open I am now. And, you know, that wall is down a little bit more. So, yeah, anything that, you know, I'm always eager to learn. And it's just been a fun process. I can't thank you enough for having us on today. This is a true treat.

• 1:50:44Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, total blast for me. An experiment, certainly, especially scattered across the world as we are. And it worked out. I'm so happy that we were able to come together. And thanks for the kind words also. You know, the book that I would recommend more than any other is not one of mine. It's actually a book called Awareness by Anthony Demello. It's a short book, D E M E L L O, Anthony Demello. And I will definitely, I'll share my email and cell with both of you guys. And you can feel free to reach out anytime, certainly. And hopefully we'll meet in person sometime. And it has been such a treat. So, so thank you both very much.

• 1:51:26Tim Ferriss?

  And I wish you both a wonderful weekend.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  You too. Thank you so much for having us, Tim.

• 1:51:34Tim Ferriss?

  Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend. And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 1:52:17Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out. And just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by ButcherBox. ButcherBox makes it easy for you to get high-quality, humanely-raised meat you can trust. They deliver delicious, 100% grass-fed, grass-finished beef, free-range organic chicken, heritage-greed pork, and wild-caught seafood directly to your door. For me, in the past few weeks, I've cooked a ton of their salmon, as well as two delicious barbecue rib racks in the oven. Super simple.

• 1:53:00Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:53:44Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:54:29Tim Ferriss?

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• 1:55:12Tim Ferriss?

  sleep, and Eight Sleep was by far and away the crowd favorite. I mean, people were just raving fans of this. So, I used it, and here we are. Add the Pod Pro Cover to your current mattress and start sleeping as cool as 55 degrees Fahrenheit or as hot as 110 degrees Fahrenheit. It also splits your bed in half, so your partner can choose a totally different temperature. My girlfriend runs hot all the time. She doesn't need cooling. She loves the heat, and we can have our own bespoke temperatures on either side, which is exactly what we're doing. Now, for me, and for many people, the result: Eight Sleep users fall asleep up to 32% faster, reduce sleep interruptions by up to 40%, and get more restful sleep overall.

• 1:55:55Tim Ferriss?

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