Writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie (‘Dream Count’) Has Some Notes

“Everything’s changed,” says author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. “I’ve changed, and every book is a different person.” It’s true: in the 12 years since the release of her best-seller, Americanah https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/878/americanah-by-chimamanda-ngozi-adichie/, Adichie has oscillated between beloved novelist, public intellectual, and feminist icon. This spring, however, she’s returned to her true love: fiction. We sat recently to discuss her excellent new book, Dream Count https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/753002/dream-count-by-chimamanda-ngozi-adichie/ (5:20), the decade-long writer’s block she pushed through to publish again (7:00), the profound, familial loss that upended her life (9:55), and the experience that turned her into a feminist (21:20). Then, Adichie reflects on her childhood growing up in the aftermath of the Biafran War (34:42), the importance of seeing yourself in literature (39:00), her affinity for American universities (41:50), and how her racial awakening culminated in Americanah (44:49). On the back-half: a wide-ranging, candid exchange around the erosion of free speech (53:36) and the American left (56:12), how she’s grappled with backlash (58:45), her case for intellectual curiosity (1:11:40), the prophetic work of W. E. B. Du Bois (1:13:40), and where she finds inspiration for the page (1:19:00). Thoughts or future guest ideas? Email us at [email protected]. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Today, author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. She emerged at the age of 26 with her debut novel, Purple Hibiscus, a coming-of-age story about a teenage Nigerian girl torn between her Igbo heritage and the fanatical Catholicism of her westernized father. That was published in 2003. Her second novel, Half of a Yellow Sun, arrived three years later, informed in part by her family's stories of surviving the Biafran War between 1967 and 1970. Adichie herself grew up during a period of military dictatorship in Nigeria, where journalists

• 1:19Speaker 00

  routinely, mysteriously disappeared. This made her, I think, an ardent defender of the press and by extension, free speech. But it's been more than a decade since the publication of her most popular novel, Americana, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award in 2013. In the intervening 12 years, Chimamanda has mostly published essays on feminism, gender, the Me Too movement, grief, and the function of race in America. You may have read those essays in The New Yorker and The Atlantic. We dive into all of those topics on the back half of this episode. But we begin with her latest novel, Dream

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Count. Set in Washington DC during the height of the pandemic, it focuses on the interconnected stories of four women and how they've come to understand one another through experiences with their friends, family, and lovers. At its core, it's about the domain of the human heart, an elegy for dreams deferred, for what was or what could have been if not for a wrong turn or two. The book is dedicated to Chimamanda's mother, who passed away in the spring of 2021, which was less than a year after losing her father in 2020. You can feel them both in the margins of Dream Count. You can also feel Chimamanda throughout our back and forth,

• 2:44Speaker 00

  working through this insurmountable loss. We do a lot of working through in this conversation, for that matter. I know many of you are coming to this conversation with your own preconceived notions of who Chimamanda is and what she believes. I know those notions and feelings are strong. But I want to say here at the top, before we dive in, whether you've listened to the show for a while or this is your first time listening to Talk Easy, this program has always been a place, I think at its best, for difficult conversations. We've hosted them around issues like race, mental health, the pandemic, gender inequality, the list goes on.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  And so today's episode is no different. And I hope that you'll take the time to hear it in full, context and all. And so with that, here is my conversation with writer Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Chimamanda.

• 3:56Speaker 01

  See, I think I need to get you help.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  We need to talk after this.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Which kind of help?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  All kinds.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Really?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's the bladder, it's the not eating.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  I had half of a bagel. Do I give that impression off that I need help?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  No, maybe it's that I'm a... My brother always calls me. He's always like, you're always looking for someone to save.

• 4:18Speaker 00

  I heard you called yourself the family worrier.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  I am, yeah.

• 4:22Speaker 00

  And so you're worrying about me, a complete stranger to you?

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Well, you're not really, because I just could not believe... No, I could, but I found it very moving. Ava's admiration and I think trust in you. I was very moved by that.

• 4:38Speaker 00

  You're talking about the director, Ava DuVernay.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  She wrote a very nice thing. I felt, I felt it was very genuine. And I'm just always moved by, you know, by connection, by people having a connection, by realness, by, yeah.

• 4:53Sam Fragoso?

  Now I'm wondering, when you sat down, you're like, this is the guy she had admiration for?

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 5:01Sam Fragoso?

  Okay, it's nice to meet you.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  And you, Sam, and you.

• 5:04Sam Fragoso?

  It's been over a decade since you published your last novel. That was called Americana. And when you got pregnant with your daughter, I think in 2015, you said, quote, "Something just happened in me. I had a number of years in which I was almost existentially frightened that I wouldn't write again. It was unbearable."

• 5:26Sam Fragoso?

  I wanted to start here, as we get into the book. What did being existentially frightened look like for you?

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Hmm, I don't even remember saying that, but it is true. I think about writing every day. If I am writing, I'm thinking about, I'm worrying about whether I will continue to write. If I'm not writing, I'm worried about not writing.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  So many times I'll say, oh, I can't go because I have to write. But then, and then I won't go for whatever, but actually then I won't write either.

• 6:03Sam Fragoso?

  What do you do instead?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Just feel bad when I'm writing. And, you know, maybe shop for shoes online or something.

• 6:10Sam Fragoso?

  You sound like my mother.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I should meet her. This is a very important part of life, shopping for shoes online.

• 6:17Sam Fragoso?

  She told me that from a very young age.

• 6:19Speaker 01

  And you don't sound like you agree.

• 6:21Sam Fragoso?

  I think when you're a lawyer, which she was, which is a hard job, do what makes you happy.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Okay, that's very diplomatic.

• 6:29Sam Fragoso?

  Well, like I said, she was a lawyer.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  So what did it look like? Now, I'm thinking about, in some ways, it's a state of mind and it's, it's just unhappiness.

• 6:41Sam Fragoso?

  And how do you deal with that?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  You don't. I mean, this is, you, you try. So, so I would actually, I mean, I said yes to many more things than I would have because in some ways it's, it was too extremes. I would either be almost in a coma, like I just wouldn't want to move. Or I was in a, this kind of extreme state of agitation. And, and so invitations that I would get were usually, I'd be like, I'm not going. I'd be like, yeah, I am going. So I was always, and then I would get there and think, yeah, I'm not writing. But then I would think, well, I'm doing something public. So, you know, I, yeah, I'm still doing something useful. Then I would write essays and it really is.

• 7:19Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, you came in here saying you thought I needed help.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. No, we need to tell the truth. I didn't just randomly say that. I came in here and first you say you haven't had anything to eat. It's lunchtime. And then you said, offering me wonderful information, that halfway through the podcast, you would need to use the bathroom. And this was because your bladder was not in very good shape, especially for a thirty year old. To which I then said, perhaps he needs some help.

• 7:52Sam Fragoso?

  You know, and we are a show that believes in and fights for context. So we thank you for that. So you said that once, like, your fiction comes from imagination and your feminism comes from acute dissatisfaction.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  I do not remember saying that either.

• 8:11Sam Fragoso?

  That's gonna be a refrain, I think you're gonna have today in talking with me.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  No, honestly, but you know, this is one of the reasons I do not like the internet. You can't say something in, you know, and I'm very used to just throwing things out. And then these things just stay forever on the internet. And you're asked to account for them, you know, twenty years later when you you don't remember. But that's a good quote because it's also kind of true. Which is my, and they're very different for me. My fiction and my, I suppose what I call my politics, I guess, are very different, really. And I, and, and the fiction for me is the thing that I love. That's who I am.

• 8:50Sam Fragoso?

  But these events that you went to in the interim decade were often around all matters of things, race, gender, et cetera, while you were mostly not writing.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  Yes, and deeply unhappy.

• 9:03Sam Fragoso?

  How do you get out of that?

• 9:05Speaker 01

  You just hope and wait. And I think, actually, I think for me at least, that the worst thing about quote unquote, writer's block is that you're helpless. You don't know when it's going to come back. That's.

• 9:18Sam Fragoso?

  Do you believe in writer's block?

• 9:19Speaker 01

  It's not a question of whether one believes or not. It happens. I could not write. I was sitting there and it just wasn't working for many years. And I think this is also why I have such fear around my, about my writing, my creativity. I'm just always thinking about what could go wrong.

• 9:36Sam Fragoso?

  Well, a lot went right in this new book of yours. It's called Dream Count. And you came to it, I believe, after your mother passed away on March 1st of 2021, which was only eight months after your father had passed in June of 2020. Is that right?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:55Sam Fragoso?

  Did her passing, I guess both their passing, but did her passing propel you back toward the page?

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Yes, I really believe that my mother helped me come back to fiction writing. Because I started writing after she died. And my mother dying was catastrophic for me. And I haven't accepted that she's gone. And so even when I talk about her, as I have quite a bit in the past, you know, four weeks since this book has been out, there's a part of me looking at myself thinking, I'm actually talking about my mother dying. And so even the sentence, my mother died, is a very strange thing for me. Because you're saying something that you know objectively is true, but emotionally is not true. And so I started writing after she died. And this book has been in my head for many years.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  I mean, not this book, but the kind of sort of shadowy, unformed sense of this book. I knew I wanted to write about women's lives. And so it's been in my head for many years when I couldn't write. And then my mother died, and suddenly I could write. I feel as though she kind of did that to help me cope.

• 11:03Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  When I was a daddy's girl, and when my father died, I was utterly devastated. And my mother, in a horrible sort of way, I just thought my mother would always be there. I think, you know, in, I think in the way that sometimes daughters take their mothers for granted. And so I just assumed she'd be there. And so she was my comforter in some ways. I mean, I also comforted her, but I think-

• 11:25Sam Fragoso?

  Comfort in how you felt about your father passing?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  Yes. And I imagine that she must have known that her leaving would be, I mean, just, it's like a very bad short story, right? It's just like, it's, it's the sort of short story that if my student wrote in a workshop, I'd be like, this is just bad. I wouldn't even be kind in saying that it was bad. Because I'd be like, no, father dies and mother dies. On the father's birthday, we forgot that detail, my mother died on my father's birthday.

• 11:59Sam Fragoso?

  I knew the detail. I just didn't say it because I didn't want to be accused of being too on the nose.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  Do you think, Sam, that we live in a time where we overthink things? Therefore, sometimes we risk being less genuine than we are?

• 12:14Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. Why did you think that she would always be around?

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Because I'm a daughter who took her mother for granted. And so I adored my father and I was always afraid of losing my father. The fear of losing my father was always there, the edges of my, my life, my mind, my, my thinking. And I would, sometimes my father would be talking and I would just press record on my phone because I just wanted to record his voice. But somehow my mother, I just thought, would always be there. I didn't have this fear of losing her. My father was 10 years older than my mother. And maybe that's why, you know, I, but no, that's not it really. I think I just took my mother for granted. And so this grieving process for me has also been a process of just intense regret. I can feel that.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  Reason that, and it's, obviously, it's a very inward and personal thing, but I made the decision to talk about it because I'm hoping that by talking about it, I will change it for somebody else.

• 13:19Sam Fragoso?

  Change it for your dynamic with your daughter?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  No, no. Change it for some woman somewhere out there in the world who is taking her mother for granted and doesn't realize it. So if it makes you stop and think, I think it will be worth it for me to talk about this.

• 13:38Sam Fragoso?

  So her passing, you believed she opened the door for you, whether intentionally or unintentionally, though it sounds like you think kind of intentionally.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  So this, I think, means that we're talking about what happens when we die.

• 13:52Sam Fragoso?

  Yes. We usually save that for the third act of the show. But I'm glad we're just jumping right in.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  What indeed happens when we die? I, you know what, honestly, Sam, do you, do you have, are you part of a religious tradition?

• 14:07Sam Fragoso?

  I'm a lapsed Catholic.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, hello, brother.

• 14:12Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  So I was raised Catholic and I, a questioning Catholic. And I say questioning because I have so many problems with the Catholic Church. But I think there's something about being raised Catholic that I feel is almost cultural. So there's a sense in which there's still Catholicism somewhere. And I sometimes find myself being protective of the church, even though I'm deeply critical of it. And my daughter, I want my, I'm raising my daughter to have faith as a Catholic. Because I think it's good to give her the choice, you know? And, but I don't, I guess the reason I'm saying this is what the Catholic Church teaches about death. I find a bit strange.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, this idea that, you know, you go to Pogatory and then you're cleansed. And then if a baby dies, the baby goes to limbo. I'm just like, okay, that sounds a bit much. But I think the larger idea of that something doesn't die, I find very beautiful.

• 15:12Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  And my mother was a very protective mother. She was fiercely loving.

• 15:17Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm. She would tell all of her friends how much she loved all of your work, even the work that she did not read.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. That was my mom. And so I can see how, you know what, it's hard again. I mean, when you asked me, you know, so you really think she did it deliberately? I just feel that my mother's spirit was present.

• 15:42Sam Fragoso?

  And it's present in this new book.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:44Sam Fragoso?

  I mean tremendously, I think that's, that's clear.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:47Sam Fragoso?

  In your previous two novels, you have interesting descriptions of them. I liked, you said, quote, "I had a sense of responsibility in writing about the history in Half of a Yellow Sun, especially around the Nigeria-Biafran war and the stories your father shared with you growing up. Then came Americana, which you called my fuck you book. I was setting myself free from being the good daughter of literature." So when we arrive at Dream Count, what would you call this book?

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Oh, we have to reset the parameters. Everything's changed. I've changed.

• 16:24Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, okay.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Each book is a different person, of course, I think, who writes it. But Purple Hibiscus, my first novel, Half of a Yellow Sun and Americana, I think, come from the same line of creation. I don't know what I'm saying, but I'm just saying that. And by the way, oh, God, I wish I mean that. It's my fuck you book. I don't remember. Yeah, I did say that. But again, it's the kind of thing that's followed me for so long. I'm like, oh, Lord. Okay, you know what? Yes, I stand by it because I really was.

• 17:00Sam Fragoso?

  The way you're equivocating is it was your fuck you book?

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yes, okay, so.

• 17:07Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, I like the fuck you book.

• 17:10Sam Fragoso?

  I was in college when I read it. I never thought fuck you, but I thought very good.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm stopped.

• 17:18Speaker 01

  No, but I mean that I think Dream Count is just an entirely different book because I'm different. And I think I really have been remade by loss. So with Americana, yes, I had that, you know, I'm free. I'll do whatever the hell I want and I'm having fun. With Dream Count, I'm less sure. I think I'm also very aware that anything can happen at any time.

• 17:41Sam Fragoso?

  Less sure about what?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  About everything.

• 17:43Sam Fragoso?

  Everything?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, everything.

• 17:45Sam Fragoso?

  Was it the loss of both of your parents that put you into a rudderless place?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. I think it's it's that, but it's also, again, context. Since this show is about context, we need some context, which is my whole life has been one in which my parents were there. My my childhood was very happy. I felt I've always felt very secure, very rooted, very sure.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Of a lot of things, including myself. And I think it's really because of the childhood I had. And in a silly sort of way, you kind of think it should continue that way forever, you know? And then my father dies quite suddenly. And one of the things I learned about grief is that you start to worry about losing more people. And so I was so worried that my mother would die. And I spoke to a therapist who said to me, a wonderful woman, and she said to me, but let's, let's think about it statistically. How likely is it? Right, and that really helped me. I was like, yeah, my father was a professor of statistics, by the way. And I thought, yeah, she's right. I mean, that's very unlikely. But then my mother died and it was on my father's birthday and it was months later.

• 18:57Speaker 01

  So it completely just shook and shattered me. And it made me realize, and that's when I started feeling anything can happen at any time. Right, and, and I think it comes with a sense of uncertainty. You're, you're, there's so much you're suddenly not sure of. I'm thinking all the time of mortality and death. Right, and, and in that, that is the person who wrote this book. But I also think that it might not be such a bad thing for creativity. Because I really like my book.

• 19:25Sam Fragoso?

  That certainty that you felt in childhood.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:27Sam Fragoso?

  In the interest of context, you grew up in the aftermath of the Biafra war, living on the campus of the University of Nigeria, where your father also taught. Your mother was also the first female registrar at the university. But inside the campus hedges at Sunday Mass, bringing it back to church a little bit, you were intrigued by the power of the priest. I wanted that power, you told The New Yorker. But it was a beautiful kind of power because I felt I would instruct people. I had dangerous ideas as a child. So confident, young, youthful Chimamanda,

• 20:11Sam Fragoso?

  what were your dangerous ideas?

• 20:13Speaker 01

  Oh, Lord have mercy.

• 20:15Sam Fragoso?

  Like free school lunch?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  There was no school lunch in in school in Nigeria. You brought your own lunch. I mean, I remember in primary and secondary school, my teachers would say, I did really well in school. So it was difficult to say, well, she's disrespectful and she doesn't. I did well. And so it was difficult for the teachers because it'd be like, she's my best student, but, you know, she argues and she, um. But it was really just that I was a child who asked questions, right? I was a child who didn't accept easy answers. And if I had dangerous ideas, maybe it was simply just ideas about questioning. And I wanted you to explain to me why things were as they were.

• 20:57Sam Fragoso?

  Like what?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Everything, everything. But also, I think that's also when my kind of feminist awakening happened as a child. Which is to say that I was a very observant child. And I knew if you're an observant child, you cannot but know that it's different for women, that the world does not give women the same dignity it gives men.

• 21:18Sam Fragoso?

  Did you first learn that at the age of nine, when you attempted to be the hall monitor at your school?

• 21:25Speaker 01

  I didn't attempt to be. My teacher said, oh, we need to clarify this because as you can see, there's still a lot of resentment that hasn't been walked through. My teacher was-

• 21:37Sam Fragoso?

  I know, listener, by the way, she flipped me off after that question.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yes, of course, um, without apology, by the way. Um, no, this is really important.

• 21:45Sam Fragoso?

  I know, that's why I brought it up.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Her name was Mrs. Abor Dikiz, which is a very long, unusual name. And so grade three E. And she said, you know, giving you this test, the best student will be the best, the student who gets the best score. I did.

• 22:02Sam Fragoso?

  Gets to be the hall monitor?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  Yes, class monitor. So one of the things was you would write the names of the noisemakers. And you- Imagine the power of it, right?

• 22:15Sam Fragoso?

  I'm trying to imagine it.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  And which often meant you wouldn't write your friends' names. You'd write the names of other people and then you'd go give it to the teacher and then the teacher would punish them.

• 22:23Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Um, which, you know, and I thought I was perfect for this position.

• 22:28Sam Fragoso?

  Why, why do you think you were perfect for it?

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Because I, I like the petty power of it. Yes.

• 22:35Sam Fragoso?

  So from a young age, you realized you enjoyed petty power?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  I feel like the way you've put it, it's, it's sort of, it's making me think about, you know, when people want to trap a politician. They'll ask you a thing, they'll be like, so you are really saying you want children to die?

• 22:52Sam Fragoso?

  You know, we, we are talking to Senator Warren next week.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Are you?

• 22:55Sam Fragoso?

  This is, this is just practice.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Good. I have some suggestions for what to ask.

• 22:59Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, good. We can talk about that after.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  No, I, no, no, no. But I think, I think most children like petty power.

• 23:05Sam Fragoso?

  Okay. So you got the best score on the test?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  And then she said, oh, it has to be a boy.

• 23:09Sam Fragoso?

  Afterward?

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:11Sam Fragoso?

  After you had received the best score on the test?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  And she said it in a kind of, but surely this should have been obvious to you sort of tone. And I just thought, why does it have to be a boy? And so it'd be, so it was a boy. His name was Chinesi. Yeah, I remember very clearly. And then I was the assistant.

• 23:29Sam Fragoso?

  Was that your first instance of gender discrimination? Is that where your feminism was born?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  My feminism, I think, was already there, but I, I, this is the, this is for me, I think, the most dramatic example of it. But also I think my feminism, my awakening came not so much from my own experience, but from watching the world, from observing.

• 23:52Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  So, so that, you know, I had an aunt who, um, her husband would beat her. And then all the other aunts would say to her, oh, you have to manage, you have to go back, you know, that sort of thing. And, and even as a child, I thought, this doesn't sound right.

• 24:06Sam Fragoso?

  Would you say that out loud or to yourself?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Oh, not to, no, because I had no business eavesdropping on, on the grownups having serious conversations and an aunt was crying. No, I would, I would think it. I mean, I did start to talk quite young because the first time someone called me a feminist, I was quite young. I was, oh, I don't know, I was early secondary school. I was quite young. He said, you know, you're a feminist. And I, I was thinking, what is that? What is that?

• 24:37Speaker 01

  And of course, I wouldn't let him know I didn't know what the ward meant. And so we just kept arguing. And then later, when I looked it up, I was like, oh, right. Why? Yeah, I was like, yeah, that's what I am.

• 24:46Sam Fragoso?

  You owned it later.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:48Sam Fragoso?

  You know, in that same New Yorker profile, there's a whole section talking about at a young age, your first run in with depression. I guess I wondered, like, when did you first understand you had depression? It wasn't something I imagine you talked about a lot with your family.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  No, it's a really good question, and I don't know the answer. But I think, again, as a child, I may not have known the ward.

• 25:14Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  But I knew that I was given to this kind of sinking into a place that is helpless. Because that's how, I think that there are people who experience depression mostly as sadness. I experience it mostly as a kind of dark helplessness. And I don't like helplessness. It frightens me. So, you know, I remember, for example, in grade five, so I must have been 10, just having these moments where I just wanted to be alone in my room. And my spirit, my spirit, which usually is quite exuberant and was, just felt, just felt, um,

• 25:57Speaker 01

  yeah, it's not a very good memory, felt, um, I felt like that.

• 26:02Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  And I, and I, yeah. And I think because I, because I was not a lonely child, I was not a sad child. You know, I was very, I had many friends. I was the most popular girl in class.

• 26:14Sam Fragoso?

  You were very popular. And in fact, friends would present you with their school lunches. And you would eat them.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  No, that's not, no, that's not quite how it happened.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  I would eat some.

• 26:29Sam Fragoso?

  Right. Some offered their lunch so that you'd be their friend.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I would, but I do have to say, I would then sometimes distribute the lunch to other people who didn't have.

• 26:38Sam Fragoso?

  So there was a socialist streak in you?

• 26:40Speaker 01

  There was, yes. There still is, yes.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  It's true, though. I mean, I just, I think it's really important to tell the truth.

• 26:50Sam Fragoso?

  We're working on it.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes might not look very appealing, but.

• 26:55Sam Fragoso?

  Look, I'm, I'm long past appealing, as you can see. I had bladder problems from the jump. I haven't eaten anything.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  So I'm going to have, in my next novel, I'm going to have a character who has a bladder problem.

• 27:08Sam Fragoso?

  Great. I guess I won't have any questions about where it came from.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  And who will be thirty and will figure the rest out.

• 27:14Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, half Mexican.

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Who's the Mexican parent?

• 27:16Sam Fragoso?

  My dad. You're describing depression as sinking and feeling helpless and trapped. It reminded me of where we started this conversation and the decade-long paralysis. The two feel not dissimilar. I mean, you felt like you couldn't write. You were stuck. I had no way out. And from that young age, whether you had the verbiage for it or not, it was something you felt acutely.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  But it's interesting that you say that about the period of not writing fiction. It is similar, actually. But I, so in that period, I did have spells of depression, but I wasn't always depressed. And also, it's interesting because I've also always known, even as a child, I knew that it was a kind of, it was a strange, sorrowful helplessness, often without a cause or without an apparent cause. You know, sorrow makes sense when you can say this is why.

• 28:13Sam Fragoso?

  And the last decade, you've had some stuff to be reasonably, I can point to this.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. So grief is quite different, I think, from depression. I did have a spell of depression after my father died, but that passed, but the grief, of course, remained. Depression is a strange beast.

• 28:33Sam Fragoso?

  It's a pain in the ass.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  It is. Sometimes when I look at people who've never experienced depression, it's a mix of wonder and, um, I'm like, really, you know? And then, of course, I also wonder why the gods choose who they choose.

• 28:52Sam Fragoso?

  Very good question. Very good question. Speaking of God, bring it back in. You said, what happens when we die? I don't really need to know that. I want to know why were we chosen to have depression? I'm much more interested in that because I have to live with that one.

• 29:09Sam Fragoso?

  The death one, what the hell do I know?

• 29:12Sam Fragoso?

  Enough already, feeling bad for no goddamn reason.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Speak!

• 29:19Sam Fragoso?

  In your earliest writing, in that period in which you first bumped up against depression, you also began to write. When your mother read those stories, as she often did, what did they look and sound like?

• 29:36Speaker 01

  They sounded like little English children doing English children things.

• 29:43Sam Fragoso?

  What is that exactly? I don't think about English children often.

• 29:47Speaker 01

  You don't? That's a shame. They should occupy your thoughts all the time, Sam. I saw this woman who was a friend's younger sister when we were growing up. And apparently she read one of those things that I wrote. And so she was talking about it and I thought, really? You read it? There was one called Down McIntosh Lane. And I guess, I don't know, I was just copying the books I was reading, you know? So they usually would have a puppy, because most of the... And one of the children's books I read, the puppy was called Socks, as in S-O-C-K-S. And so I remember having a puppy called Socks in one of my books. And I should tell you that I grew up in a household that did not like dogs at all.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  My father didn't like dogs. Dogs were not a thing. But dogs always featured in my early stories.

• 30:35Sam Fragoso?

  I'm sorry to hear that, that he didn't like them. You also had a lot of white characters with blue eyes that played in the snow, that ate apples and talked a lot about the weather. You had, at that point, not left Nigeria, right?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:48Sam Fragoso?

  I don't think you had snow.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:51Sam Fragoso?

  When you think back on how your early writing was so informed by what you read, which was all about people that you had not met in places you had not been to, how do you think it shaped the writer you became?

• 31:07Speaker 01

  I'm hoping that by starting that way, it made me potentially more, more confident about my own life being worthy of literature. Children are very impressionable. It also makes me aware that it is so important for children to see themselves reflected in literature, to see, actually to see, I would argue to see everyone reflected in literature, but also to see themselves, but not only themselves, is what I mean. I am thinking now and when I realized that I did not have to write about English children in the English countryside, I think that sometimes it brings a kind of,

• 31:49Speaker 01

  I don't know, I think it made me doubly sure that my own life was worthy, that my own world was worthy of literature. And since then, I've never doubted it. I've, um, rough start, but it's going fairly well.

• 32:06Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, more from Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie.

• 32:20Sam Fragoso?

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• 33:05Sam Fragoso?

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• 33:51Sam Fragoso?

  You know, we talked about this earlier, but you were born in 1977, seven years removed from the war and a generation raised in the silence of its aftermath. And you wrote in The New Yorker, "On the margins of my happy childhood," which, by all accounts, does seem very happy. "There was a shadow, the Beaufort War. And while I did not experience any material depravations, I had a bicycle, dolls, books. My family was scarred by it." I want to know, when did your father begin to get out from under that shadow and begin to shed light on what happened to him and to your family?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  He didn't until I asked. And I started asking, maybe, when I was, I guess, maybe I'm going to say about 15. But before then, you know, it's that strange feeling of being a child and knowing that there's something you don't know, but there is something. And sometimes my parents would, especially my mother, would kind of... Well, my father talked so much about his father, my grandfather, who died in the war. And in some ways, that was the only way my father would talk about his father and then often end it with, "The war took him," that sort of thing. My mother, on the other hand, would say things like, "Oh, I had this beautiful set of China and then the war," you know? And she also would talk about this apparently very beautiful wig

• 35:21Speaker 01

  that someone had sent to her from Paris. And it came in this case. And she was very elaborate. And then she would say, "But I lost it in the war." So I had this idea that my mother lost all the beautiful things she had.

• 35:34Sam Fragoso?

  But they all lost. I mean, was that a coping mechanism, do you think?

• 35:37Speaker 01

  I think it was for her, because she also lost her father. She could not talk about losing her father. Even when I asked her, my mother could not talk about it. My father told me about it a little bit, but my mother never talked about losing her father. And I learned to respect it and not ask. So she was the first daughter. And in a time when people said to her father, "Why are you wasting your money educating her? She's just going to get married." You know, you educated boys. She was born in 1942. And her father was like, "No. You know, I'm going to educate my daughter." And my mother would talk about him with such pride. And so, talking about his death, she just couldn't. So when I started asking them questions, it was mostly my father, who then started telling me about their experiences. And obviously, he knew I wanted to write about it. And I think, I don't think it was easy for him to talk about,

• 36:22Speaker 01

  but I do think that he, in some ways, felt that it was important for me to write about it. But I think he was also, I think, well, he did say that he was pleasantly surprised when he finally read my novel, because I suppose he was thinking, only God knows what she's going to do with all of this, when, when he read Half of a Yellow Sun. Yeah. Could we read a section from that? Okay.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  I haven't read this book in a while.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  "The lizards have become smarter. They run faster now and hide on the blocks of cement, the boy who had climbed told Ugu. They roasted and shared, the lizard, chewing other children away. Later, the boy offered Ugu a tiny bit of his stringy share. Ugu thanked him and shook his head and realized that he would never be able to capture that child on paper, never be able to describe well enough the fear that dulled the eyes of mothers in the refugee camp when the bomber planes charged out of the sky. He would never be able to depict the very bleakness of bombing hungry people.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  But he tried, and the more he wrote, the less he dreamed."

• 37:44Speaker 01

  I'd almost forgotten this.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  What did you make reading it? Oh, I think I'm having an emotional day. I'm perimenopausal. It's a...

• 37:58Speaker 01

  It means hormones are out of sync. Uh, you know, there's no judgment here.

• 38:07Speaker 01

  No, I'd forgotten that. It's very, you know, I, because I don't usually read my books. I mean, I become very familiar with a few parts of my novels because I've had to read them when I do events. But usually it's the first two pages or something. So.

• 38:24Sam Fragoso?

  The two pages that the moderator has read?

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Usually the red half of page. No, sometimes. It's so nice when people have actually read the book. When they haven't, I'm just constantly trying to shield my acute irritation.

• 38:45Sam Fragoso?

  So in thinking about this section and reading it now, you're having an emotional response that you wanna chalk up to menopause?

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Peri.

• 38:55Sam Fragoso?

  Perimenopause, sorry?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Well, Sam, I think a woman of a certain age is allowed to use perimenopause for an excuse whenever she wants to. Because, because the symptoms are so crazy that you are allowed to bloody well use that damn thing.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  We should get free bus passes. We should, yes, and we should get free cry passes.

• 39:21Sam Fragoso?

  You get free cry passes here?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  I did not remember this passage.

• 39:25Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  And so it's a kind of revelation and also that book and the story of the Biafran war is, um.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I don't know. I just, you know, so we've talked about things that are quite personal and kind of emotional. And then, and then reading this, it takes me back to, not just to when I was writing it, but in a strange sort of way, it takes me back to the suffering of my people. And so it moves me and makes me sad in a way. But also I'm really, I think it's a really lovely passage as well.

• 40:06Sam Fragoso?

  It's why I folded it into the conversation. And also because I read that and thought, I'm so glad your father shared what he shared. Even though I'm sure it was not easy to do and that this now can bear some witness to that.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  Yes. It's beautifully put. I feel the same way.

• 40:32Sam Fragoso?

  In 1995, when you're 17 and you start applying for colleges in America, I guess that was a couple of years after you started asking your dad about the war. But what conditions compelled you to apply to college in America? I guess like to borrow a phrase from Americana, did you feel an oppressive lethargy of choicelessness?

• 40:56Speaker 01

  I didn't, actually. I didn't. I I applied to American universities because I did not want to study medicine in Nigeria. That's really why. But I applied when I was already in university. So I had done maybe one semester of studying medicine. And in Nigeria, you're you're put in tracks when you're quite young. So I was already in the science track. But of course, I've always known that writing was my calling. And my plan always was to figure out how to earn a living so that I could write. So I figured, well, everybody says I have to be a doctor. I might as well, right? But at some point, I mean, it was very early, early on in, you know, it was just basic biology classes. It wasn't like we were, I mean, we did sort of, you know, cut open a frog,

• 41:41Speaker 01

  but it's not like we had done proper cadavers or anything.

• 41:45Sam Fragoso?

  I don't like that.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Well, Sam, the doctor who's going to fix your bladder has had to.

• 41:53Sam Fragoso?

  You know, every, every time you say, well, Sam, I'm worried about what's coming on the other side of it. You didn't want to be a doctor. Go on.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  I didn't. I didn't. I never wanted to be, but I thought I could just be, you know, and then do other things. And then, you know, weeks into studying medicine, I thought, no, I cannot do this.

• 42:12Sam Fragoso?

  So you never felt the choicelessness? You never felt that life happened somewhere else?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Um, I suppose I did. But I also kind of felt that at some point I would get to that somewhere else.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  I mean, my brother was just telling me recently, I don't remember this, but apparently my brother said I would take the TV remote control and pretend that that was a a mic and a handheld microphone. And then I would climb on top of our center table, coffee table, as Americans would say. And then I would say, I am the Oprah Winfrey of Nigeria. My brother told me this, and I said, really, I did that? He's like, yes. So I must have had many dreams. I mean, in addition to writing, I must have wanted to be the Oprah Winfrey of Nigeria.

• 42:59Sam Fragoso?

  What exactly does that look like? What does that mean?

• 43:02Speaker 01

  America was always very aspirational, you know, and of course it was, you watched American films. And I also remember when we were growing up and we would watch films on video cassette. And my brothers, and so we lived on the campus of the university and, you know, kids would exchange books and videos. And my brother would often say, and we called it borrowing, well, I'm going to go and borrow a film. And then my brother sometimes would come home with one and be like, but it's British, which meant, ah, it's not going to be very good because it's not American. And so I think my climbing on the table and saying that I was the Oprah Winfrey of Nigeria, if we can believe my brother, is really about that as well, I think, about America's aspiration

• 43:42Speaker 01

  and Oprah being kind of this, you know, iconic idea of America.

• 43:49Sam Fragoso?

  In Dream Count, you write that, "America makes more sense when you're looking in from the outside." So when you came to this country and first enrolled at Drexel in Philadelphia, what were your initial impressions looking in from the outside?

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I think before I came to America, America, America was everything I wanted it to be. America was everything Nigeria was not. And so every, every kind of criticism I had of Nigeria, in my head, I would think, oh, that, that will not exist in America. And often it was political. I mean, I, you know, I grew up under military dictatorships. So the last one, General Abacha, something would happen, he was vicious. You know, he would murder journalists, that kind of thing. And I remember just always thinking, not just me, but we would have these conversations where people would go, just go to America. This can never happen in America. And so America became this thing. And so for me, I think when I came, America was the place where you could study. I loved the idea of a liberal arts college. America was the place where you could study.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  You could take classes in everything. In Nigeria, you couldn't. If you're in the science track, you took only the sciences. Apart from, you know, two sort of measly general studies things that would just. So there was an intellectual openness. Oh, yes. And I found that to be just, just wonderful, just, you know. And I loved, when I started college, I just loved it. I loved that I could take a class in philosophy and music and all kinds of things. And then.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  There were other things I was not prepared for. I like America's acute obsession with identity. And you know, you step back and look at it intellectually and you understand why. Which is that this is a country that's, you know, a country of immigrants. And so even though this country claims that everyone comes and becomes one, actually, I think because it is a country that is not kind of rooted in any sort of um nativism, any sort of, sort of blood and soil, even though some people are trying to make it that way. So identity, individual, I don't, I don't know. So people needed to have their labels in a strange sort of way. And so I got mine, which was black. And, and you know, initially I would. Why does that make you laugh?

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Because it's still, it's still darkly funny. Coming from Nigeria, where I never thought of myself as black and coming to America and becoming black, but also realizing what that meant. So the arrogant Nigerian in me, you know, Nigeria is kind of like the America. Nigeria is to Africa what America is to, the American continent, smug and arrogant. And I would think, these people are crazy. I didn't have those words in here. I'd be like, these people, these people are crazy. They think black people are inferior. Really? Are they mad? But of course, also you cannot help but be affected by things. And so. It wasn't always easy discovering racism.

• 46:47Sam Fragoso?

  When you're talking with classmates or you're in a class having a group discussion and the subject of race comes up, was your perspective, coming from Nigeria, was it legible to them?

• 47:00Speaker 01

  That's an interesting question. Honestly, I would often be quiet. I wouldn't say anything.

• 47:05Sam Fragoso?

  You were quiet?

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Okay, that's good.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Oh, you're terrible. Yes, shockingly. No, only very briefly until the, you know, we talked about something else. But I do remember, I do remember very clearly a day in undergrad when watermelons were being talked about in relation to America, that sort of America's history of racism. And I was just confused and I said aloud, well, what's wrong with watermelons?

• 47:43Speaker 01

  And this woman, African American woman who was in my class, was very angry with me. And so she's like, you know, why are you saying that? And I, and my whole thing was, I really like watermelons. Why are we? Because it had been said in a kind of, through a way where racism and, you know, the watermelons. And I think it had been put in together with things like blackface and minstrel shows and things. And I, and my thing was, what are my lungs? So I think my, but the rest of the time, seriously, I would not say very much. I was absorbing. I was learning. I realized there's so much I did not get.

• 48:19Sam Fragoso?

  You were observing like you did as a kid?

• 48:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:23Sam Fragoso?

  Around your family?

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:24Sam Fragoso?

  At school?

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:26Sam Fragoso?

  In your essay, How I Became Black in America for The Atlantic, you wrote, "To be black in America was to be bulldozed by the weight of history and stereotypes. To know that race was always a possible reason or cause or explanation for the big and small interactions that make up our fragile lives."

• 48:47Sam Fragoso?

  Is that what it felt like, a bulldozing?

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yes. And it just made raised, you know. I would often say to people, someone in Nigeria is nasty or rude to me. I mostly will think this person is an asshole. This person is having a bad day. In America, there's always the option of it's because I'm black.

• 49:11Sam Fragoso?

  So in Nigeria, you would extend that person, that stranger, grace.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  And in America too, just that there's an additional option. This person is racist. So it's, it's this person is having a bad day. This person is just an asshole. And this person might be racist. And so there are things that have happened, actually just recently at the airport, where a woman just looks at me and says to me, oh, you're in the wrong line. She's like, this is Sky Priority. And I'm saying, well, how do you know I'm not supposed to be here? And, and I remember thinking, I stood there and I was, and, and the white person behind me. And my thought was, please be rude to this white person so that I do not have to think that this is about race.

• 49:56Sam Fragoso?

  Equal opportunity rudeness.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  Yes, which is perfectly fine because it's human. But she wasn't rude to the white person. She just didn't say anything, white person. And so that's what, that's what, that's, that's America and it's exhausting. So there's a feeling of being bulldozed by it. I mean, it's not always exhausting. I do have to say that there are things I find quite lovely about it. I think being a black person who's not African American also for me meant that I became part of this larger family of black people, right? And I, you know, there's a lot I love about it.

• 50:28Sam Fragoso?

  Do you think being rendered black in this country has given you more than it's taken?

• 50:37Speaker 01

  You know, when you take a test and there's yes, no, and then the C option is none of the above.

• 50:45Speaker 01

  I will take the C option.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  It's a very interesting, I mean, I haven't, it's strange to think about it in that way because I gained a bigger family of black people. I gained the knowledge of African American literature, you know, I, while of course, knowing that I'm not African American, but I, I do think that, you know, I also gained a larger idea of Pan-Africanism. So I really do feel, I feel very emotionally Pan-African. And for me, Pan-Africanism is a very broad range. All the peoples who are descended from the continent, all the black peoples for me are, are my siblings.

• 51:24Speaker 01

  But I don't know about giving me, I mean, I, I wish America wasn't so fixated on, yeah, no, I don't want to say that because it's a, what? No, I was going to say, I wish America wasn't so fixated on, on race. But that is a strange thing to say if one knows American history. Right? So, so, so it is in fact because of race that people were dehumanized. It is in fact because of race that people today are in the circumstances that they're in.

• 51:52Sam Fragoso?

  And why it is a subject that people fixate on?

• 51:55Speaker 01

  Yes. So I think it makes sense. And I think that this fixation, if it were done right, could lead to justice. But it so far has not, right? I mean, there's race and there's racism. And in some ways, I think the reason that race matters is because of racism.

• 52:13Sam Fragoso?

  But say more.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  So I wouldn't, I don't know that I would necessarily be interested in writing about race if, if, if not, if not as in some ways illustrations of racism. Because otherwise, there would just be human stories of just human beings, you know? And, and if I did have, and then I would just maybe write about natural black hair, but even that has elements of racism.

• 52:38Sam Fragoso?

  And there's a politic to that as well.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:41Sam Fragoso?

  One thing that has struck, has struck me is that when you're describing your time in those first four years in America, where you're going to these universities, first Drexel, then Eastern Connecticut. Yeah. And then there's a little stint at John Hopkins, there's another one at. Yale, I think. But what you're describing and what I can hear from you is a yearning for a time where there was an intellectual curiosity, an openness that young people got to experience and wade through in all its idiosyncratic glory. And oftentimes, when you're asked about academia

• 53:25Sam Fragoso?

  and comparing your time with now, you said, quote, "We've lost something." 1977 America versus 2025 America in academia. We've lost something. What have we lost?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  We've lost freedom of imagination. We've lost curiosity. We've lost compassion. We've lost the assumption, the overriding assumption of good faith. We've lost that idea that self-righteousness is boring. Instead, we've embraced a very boring self-righteousness. And I think the reason it breaks my heart is that I obviously grew up on a university campus. But of course, Sokka was very different. I mean, when I was growing up, it was a place of just the most wondrous intellectual openness and discourse.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  And I used to love not just my father, but we had an uncle, not, you know, in the way that my father's friend was my uncle, who had these friends who would come to his house. And often, we would go stay overnight. And I would sit at the dining just listening to them. They would argue. They were very good friends. But if you heard them arguing, you would think, my God, they're going to fight. And I remember just finding this just wondrous.

• 54:51Sam Fragoso?

  Some people hear fighting. I also hear love.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And the exchange of ideas. And the, you know, there was an urgency, the belief in, and they wanted to convince the other person. Right? And the person wanted to convince them. And I remember just wanting to be old enough to participate.

• 55:10Sam Fragoso?

  To participate in the attempt at persuasion.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And also, and also just in the learning, in the taking in of new ideas.

• 55:19Sam Fragoso?

  So why have we lost this? Your heart breaks over what in particular?

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I think that academia and by extension, the American left, because, you know, I think that academia is mostly populated by people in this country who will be considered to be in the political left. And you wouldn't put yourself in that? I would, but with, you know, sort of grumpily. Sad.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, you know, it's my family. I guess I have to, you know, go to Thanksgiving dinner. Yeah, it's a begrudging acceptance. Yes, yes. I would want to be, I wanted to be more enthusiastic. I wish it was exuberant. Yes, yes. I do not feel the exuberance. Yes. And it's sad, honestly, because, I mean, on so many levels. So, so you asked why? Mm hmm. I think many of the impulses come from a fundamentally good place, I guess. Okay, I think one of the things I've, I've, and I think about this quite a bit. I think that there's a kind of a cohort of people on the left who are so invested in the idea of kind of inclusion and who have decided that difference, the ways in which we're different is the problem.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  The approach is not to acknowledge the difference, it's to pretend that it's not there. And in some ways also, it's to be dishonest about it. I remember in grad school, because when I was an undergrad, none of this happened. And undergrad, I felt, was a much more intellectually open place. Mm hmm. I remember in grad school, someone saying, someone asking a woman who was Korean, so what was your immigrant experience like? Because her family had come when she was, I don't know, seven or something. And this very righteous liberal gets very upset and says, it's like every other immigrant experience. Why are you authoring her? And, and then this poor Korean student, who I suspect probably would have been happy to talk about her particular experience, kind of went silent. And it's just one tiny example, but I remember thinking,

• 57:14Speaker 01

  you know, it's not like every other immigrant experience. And I do, and I do not think that question came from a bad place, right? And even if it did, I've often felt that, that, you know, that ignorance is an opportunity.

• 57:26Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Right? So I really believe in, someone says something that, even if it's from a bad place, and you sort of have a conversation, and if they continue to be assholes, then you can sort of become judgmental. But to start off with this kind of self-righteous closing down.

• 57:41Sam Fragoso?

  I think there should be a three-strike policy.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 57:45Sam Fragoso?

  You know, you may not know.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:47Sam Fragoso?

  Are you asking in earnest?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 57:48Sam Fragoso?

  Are you not really asking in earnest? Are you open to education? I agree with all this. Now, you know, people listening are going to go, when you're talking about difference and distinction, the first thing they're going to point to is you saying, "Trans women are trans women."

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:05Sam Fragoso?

  You know that.

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:07Sam Fragoso?

  You said that in an interview with Channel 4 News.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:10Sam Fragoso?

  When she asked you whether a transgender woman was any less of a woman because of the privileges they previously held as a man. And you said, "Trans women are trans women", which people took great offense to, including two former students of yours. But you're making a nuanced distinction that cis women are cis women and trans women are trans women. Is that fair to say?

• 58:35Speaker 01

  It is fair to say, but I have to say that in that time, I have done a lot of reading and a lot of rejection of certain languages, certain words. So I would not even use that word cis.

• 58:46Sam Fragoso?

  I'm curious about this because in the height of the Me Too movement.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 58:50Sam Fragoso?

  You said in one interview, "I feel uncomfortable with the blanket condemnation that happens, which is why Me Too maybe has to be a case-by-case thing. But what I say to myself through my discomfort is that not every movement can afford nuance. It's sad, but I think it's true." So I'm wondering, looking back at this time now and all the fallout from this, why do you feel like the Me Too movement couldn't afford nuance, but the trans movement could?

• 59:27Speaker 01

  So I think, I mean, when I was saying that about the Me Too movement, I wanted it to have nuance. But I think my point was it's so new and in some ways I can understand the kind of desire to say, no, we're not having nuance. But I also think that that approach ultimately was bad for the movement. Because it means, I think that we live in a world that is mired in misogyny. And it's kind, it's also really the reason that I want to get it right. Because I know that there is kind of like a, a mob waiting to discredit the importance of justice and ending sexism and all of those things. And, you know, I just felt that the Me Too movement didn't seem able to make a distinction between

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  a man who's just a vile rapist and a date that did not go well, which did not involve assault, right? And I just felt that we can't lump all of that together because they, because it's important in all kinds of ways. And, you know, and I think part of the reason that I felt so upset was that I am, you know, completely and sort of unquestioningly in support of the rights of trans people. So, so the reason I say it's different is it's not something that I'm asking for nuance, even though I am, it's that I'm asking for honesty and truthfulness. And, and I'm saying, why can't we? Again, I think it goes back to this idea

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  that the left thinks that the way to solve problems is to pretend that differences don't exist. I don't think it benefits anybody. And I think people are being made to parrot things that they do not believe. I do think that, you know, biology is a real thing. And, you know, I had an event after this happened where people were sort of shouting at me. And, and so this person said to me, this trans woman said to me, I want you to tell me when you knew that you were a woman. And then she said, because I can tell you when I knew I was a woman. And I remember thinking, this question doesn't apply to me. This question applies to you, but not to me. And we we shouldn't pretend that it applies to everyone. And we can have equality while acknowledging how we're different. I think that is how to create a pluralistic society.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  But, yeah, uh, yeah, yeah. That subject, it was very surprising to me, the vitriol. And affected me in many ways, but also opened my eyes. Mm hmm. So I'm thinking about what you said about Riz. Did it give more than it took? It actually really did open my eyes, for which I felt grateful. It made me read a lot more. And and yeah, in what way? I think I've read every book written by every trans woman in the world. And then I've read everything about, um, you know, before it was called transsexuals. I've read, I mean, I really went back and I read every damn thing. I've read about, um, you know, what people go into sex, which some people prefer to call differences in sexual development.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  I've, so, yeah, so I guess it opened me up to to things. But I don't want to be glib because it was also deeply hurtful. Deeply hurtful to you? Yes. You were hurt by by what? By people I thought were friends, who did not behave like friends. These are the two former students you had? Oh, no, not those people. No, I mean, people who really were my friends and who would say to me, you're making sense, but in public or with other people would say, she's transphobic. And that was very hurtful. So in private, they would tell you? Yes. You make sense. Yes. But in public, in display, in in full view of other strangers looking, they would call you out. Yes. And what do you make of those friends?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Well, I learned that they're not really friends. Hmm. And, um, but I also learned about the fear, I think, that being part of the political left has brought for many people.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  Because I think that there are certain people who felt that if they didn't say she's, you know, terrible and she murders women, then they too would be attacked, right? People wrote to me to say, oh, we can't, we've been told in our writing program that we cannot do uh our thesis on your work because you're you're a bigot. And then I would look at some of the programs and the people who walked there were people who know me.

• 1:03:50Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  And I would think, my God, but you know me, right? You know me, you know, you surely you know that I, yeah, but anyway.

• 1:03:57Sam Fragoso?

  As someone who has read and pored over your work for thirteen years, I did take what you said about the trans community seriously. And I read everything that you wrote about it. I read everything that was written about you in that moment. And I just have some like questions, I just need to to clear this.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:21Sam Fragoso?

  To make sense of it.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:04:23Sam Fragoso?

  You have those two former students of yours. They had your phone number.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:28Sam Fragoso?

  They had your email, they had your cellphone.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:31Sam Fragoso?

  Instead, they went to the public space, that is Twitter, to denigrate you.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:04:37Sam Fragoso?

  Why do you think they didn't write you privately?

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  So a friend of mine told me this many years ago, and I often think about it. He said to me, you've become a public figure, you're quote unquote famous. Therefore, now there's value in slander. And I think that they did that because they knew that they would, it would elevate them, right? That there's value for them in doing that.

• 1:05:00Sam Fragoso?

  There was no value in privately.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:02Sam Fragoso?

  Going to you.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  No, none at all.

• 1:05:04Sam Fragoso?

  Except for the fact that they may have been able to maintain a friendship.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  They weren't really friends. I mean, one was not a friend, really. The other was someone who I thought, you know, who had who had had to my house for dinner a few times. And I sort of wanted to, you know, be supportive.

• 1:05:16Sam Fragoso?

  You supported both of their writings, though.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yes, I did. I did. They were at my workshop. But one, I had come to my house, I thought she was a bright young feminist. I wanted to, you know, be supportive. But I think that the reason they did not is also because they knew that it was not coming from a place of exclusion or hate, because they know me. And I think social media has has added to this. There's a kind of calculation, I think, and it's really ugly, that people realize that in a very calculated way that. They will, you know, get, I guess, likes and then some people might invite them to a conference and someone might, you know, give them attention.

• 1:05:57Sam Fragoso?

  I did wonder in the aftermath of all that, and in your subsequent Facebook post where you clarified some of your position, there were so many people on the far right that praised you for your position. Gender essentialist is what they call themselves, like Ben Shapiro and Piers Morgan, who took to Twitter to praise your take.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:06:20Sam Fragoso?

  Yes, and there's many more, and frankly, worse people than them. I'm curious, what do you think it says about your argument that the people who most loudly supported it were people like Ben Shapiro and Piers Morgan, people you would not be caught dead saying hi to?

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Oh, Lord.

• 1:06:39Sam Fragoso?

  If those people, you saw them on the street, you'd cross the street.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Phew. Oh, I didn't realize I got such magnificent praise. Look, I guess I could say that kind of very easy thing and say that, you know, thing about the clock, that even a clock that's broken is right.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  But you know what I will say, though, and how does it make me feel? It doesn't, because I understand the context of this country, I'm not going to pay a lot of attention to it. And actually, actually, I really did not even know about Ben Shapiro. I didn't even know he knew who I was.

• 1:07:17Sam Fragoso?

  From that, he did. And frankly, those people who I think we probably mutually don't like did use your words and weaponize them against the trans community.

• 1:07:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Sam Fragoso?

  They did do that, and in fact, they continue to do that to this day. Some party must not like that.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  Well, yes, and this is part of the reason I'm not on the internet and I don't read anything about myself because, you know, I just think it's, I think it's ugly and I think it can. I think if you're not careful, it can turn your soul dark. So I don't want to do that. But I just think that America is, I mean, the tribalism, it's so deeply polarized. And, you know, if somebody on the right says something is red, you have to say it's not red. And even if you think it's red, you have to say it's not red. Otherwise, your tribe will come after you. That's really fun. And I see this happening even politically. I mean, the, you know, the American president will say something that is clearly just illogical.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  And, and people who you imagine are thoughtful, because they're on the right, they'll find ways to justify it. So I suppose my point is, I'm not saying what I think, thinking about the people who will use it in bad faith ways. Because if I think, and I know that this is what the internet has done, but I think if we start to think that way, you close off your mind. But I'm also aware of that because it's the reason that I've refused to go public with a lot of the things that forward that comment.

• 1:08:52Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  So there are things that happened, which I won't tell you because, but I didn't want, and I still don't want to talk about it publicly because I know that I will, the result will be that there will be a lot of sort of crowing on the right. And people say, well, look, look what they did to her. So I don't want to, in some ways, it's very easy to be adopted as an icon by people whose political positions you don't like. Just because in one aspect, they agree with you. So what I mean is, the reason I have not talked in detail, actually not at all, about the things that happened to me, in other words, about quote unquote, the punishment.

• 1:09:35Sam Fragoso?

  In which you were punished for saying what you said?

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:38Sam Fragoso?

  But you were able to continue writing.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:42Sam Fragoso?

  You've continued speaking around the world.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  I don't, as far as I know, I don't think your publisher dropped you. I, it seems on the surface, people would go, she didn't suffer many consequences for what she said. And you're saying that's not true.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up, and I'll tell you why. I think there's also, in addition to polarization, this kind of, almost like an addiction to victim status. And it can feel as though it's sort of like in the, out in the market, just sort of in the marketplace of ideas, everyone is fighting to be the victim. It bores me endlessly. And I just don't want to participate in that. The reason that I brought it up was simply to say, when you were saying, oh, that is, you know, dodgy people on the right have praised you, is to say, yes, I don't read those things, but I also am aware that your words can be misused. And therefore, it's also why I haven't said A, B, C. That's kind of why I brought this up.

• 1:10:42Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I don't think of myself as a victim at all.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  I think the whole point of talking about this

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  was A, because I know there are people in the trans community, in the LGBTQ plus community, that feel strongly about this, that when I say, I'm talking to Chimamanda, they go, you are? And in that response, you can hear that they don't want to read your work anymore. They don't feel comfortable or safe reading your work because of these comments. And that breaks my heart because your writing, when it's at its best, and I do think you are one of our best, your writing makes us feel more alive and human and vulnerable and all the things that make literature worth returning to.

• 1:11:32Speaker 00

  And there are some people now, because of this, that just will not experience that anymore. And that makes me sad.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Thank you, Sam. I appreciate that, actually. I really, really do. And

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  It is, uh.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  In some ways, there's a great sadness there, I think. Not for me, although, I mean, I did have periods of sadness. The whole subject, I think, this whole thing.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  It's sad because a cousin of mine said to me, it's a good thing our uncle, we had this wonderful uncle who would often ask you, you know, explain it to me. I wouldn't know, my uncle has died, I wouldn't know how to explain this to him.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  He'd be like, what? And, yeah. But thank you, I really appreciate what you said, thank you. And, you know, I also just want to say, if people don't, if you don't want to read me, that's fine, you know? I'm not, I'm not a victim, I'm.

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  I still believe what I believe, which is that it's important for us to acknowledge difference if we're ever going to live in a truly pluralistic society.

• 1:12:45Sam Fragoso?

  The reason I brought it up is because messiness and complexity is what makes good art. And many writers have been talking about the necessity of messiness, including you. But even going back to nineteen twenty-six, when W E B Du Bois gave a lecture called Criteria of Negro Art. And there's a passage in it I thought maybe you'd want to read.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  Hmm. In other words, the white public today demands from its artists literary and pictorial, racial prejudgment, which deliberately distorts truth and justice as far as colored races are concerned, and it will pay for no other. On the other hand, the young and slowly growing black public still wants its profits almost equally on free. We are bound by all sorts of customs that have come down as secondhand soul clothes of white patrons. We are ashamed of sex and we lower our eyes when people will talk of it.

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  Our religion holds us in superstition.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Our worst side has been so shamelessly emphasized that we are denying we have or have ever had a worst side. In all sorts of ways, we are hemmed in. And our new young artists have got to fight their way to freedom. Whew, you know, it's been a while since I read this. Thank you for reminding me. Isn't it interesting how this speaks to today?

• 1:14:30Sam Fragoso?

  Almost exactly a hundred years ago.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:35Sam Fragoso?

  I want to know, where do those, where do his words land with you? Like, do you believe you can afford the truth at this moment in American life?

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Yes, we have to. Because here's what I think. Even with the best of intentions, a lie is still a lie. And I think in the end, it's not going to benefit us. And, and you know, I really, so that's the line that I've often sort of paraphrased and misquoted. You know, that a worst side has been so shamelessly emphasized that we're denying that worst side, rather than, I think that when you tell a full human story, that includes the worst side. But the point is, it's not only about the worst side. I, I think that's important. I think that's the way it should be done. Because when you deny that worst side,

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  in some ways, you're also giving your enemies, we're back to enemies. You're feeding your enemies because what your enemies are going to do is, well, there is that side that you're not talking about. You know, and it just feels, there is a dishonesty that I think is unnecessary in whatever justice movement. I think that justice movements are stronger when they're nuanced.

• 1:15:47Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  And they're also, I think, more immune to attack. Because you have said, here's the worst side, but that's not all we are. So nobody's going to come say to you, well, there is that worst side and make it the story, you know?

• 1:16:03Sam Fragoso?

  You write in Dream Count, "The clarity of hindsight is bewildering. If only we could see our failings while we are still failing."

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:16:13Sam Fragoso?

  Do you find that to be true? Do you see places where you feel like you've fallen short in the last decade?

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Yes. A lot of it is personal, in personal relationships. Where I, you know, I look back, I think, my God, I was not, I did not do well. I could have done better. Well, you know, and I, and I think it's human. I think maybe I feel a lot more grown up. I have relationships, friendships that have ended, but I think that they needed to end. But there are also friendships that I have made that, that I felt I did not do well with or in. And I'm making amends, like I'm,

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  like I'm doing better and I want to talk, you know, and I, and also just to say without preface, I did not do it right. And I'm sorry, I just, I wasn't patient. I was too quick to, I'm not always patient.

• 1:17:09Sam Fragoso?

  You know what you sound like? A human.

• 1:17:16Sam Fragoso?

  My last question. At the end of Tree count, in your author's note, you write that the point of art is to look at the world and be moved by it. And then to engage in a series of attempts at clearly seeing the world, interpreting it, questioning it. In all these forms of engagement, a kind of purity of purpose must prevail. It cannot be a gimmick. Only then can we reach reflection, illumination, and finally, hopefully, epiphany. On the other side of writing this book, which you've done without your parents, now the mother of two more kids, pushing through writer's block and all,

• 1:18:01Sam Fragoso?

  reconnecting with yourself that you thought for, for a period was lost, maybe irretrievable. What does that epiphany look like? What does it sound like?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Sounds like laughter.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I think that a life without laughter is not worth living. I'm very moved, Sam.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  Honestly, what I've been feeling the past few weeks is just gratitude. Really, I've just felt so damn grateful to the universe, to my mother, to my ancestors, who gave me this gift of writing. Because apart from the people I love, it's writing that makes me happy, writing fiction. And I just cannot believe I finished this damn book. So I, I really, honestly, I honestly, I'm not even joking. I still look at it, I'm like, I did it. And I'm a slow writer anyway, even without the writer's block. So it might be another ten years.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  I, um, yeah, it's, it's, it feels like gratitude and it sounds like, um, crazed laughter.

• 1:19:12Sam Fragoso?

  And when you look at the world, are you still moved by it? But what moves you?

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Oh, very much, I'm.

• 1:19:20Sam Fragoso?

  We've talked a lot about what's wrong.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is true. And this is, this is so true. I really want to talk about what's not wrong. I'm very moved by human connection. I'm very moved by, and I actually can be, you know, ridiculously, um, emotional about it. I'm moved by the possibility and the reality of human connection, that two people sometimes who come from very different worlds can connect. And so I love that my books, I cannot tell you how moved I always am when someone who is not like me in any way reads my work and it says something to them. I just, I'm still in just an utter awe of this, right?

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  And, and, yeah, so watching the world, I'm moved by human connection. I'm very moved by love. I am a person who watches people at airports saying goodbye and I feel like crying. And they're strangers, but I'm just moved by how they hug each other and you can just see that they love each other and, and they're parting. And then I'm watching them and I'm tearing up.

• 1:20:32Speaker 01

  I think I'm also moved by a sort of small political change for the better. Because I'm too practical to believe in sort of, you know, this great overnight change. I think that change is always small steps and I'm moved by it. When I see that happen, I'm moved by it. I'm actually even just moved by the recent election in Wisconsin where a judge who despite a billionaire supporting the other side won. I mean, I, I felt it in an emotional way. And sometimes it's the basis for hope, you think. And I just, I also really love the idea of collective action. I love when people come together and believe in something. And also acts of friendship, you know, when someone just does just little things, you know,

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  which means people are thinking about other people. I find it very beautiful.

• 1:21:21Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I've spent a lot of time thinking about you.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I can see that. No, but really, I mean, I, so this is the other thing I do. And you know, you said something which I found interesting. You said you're getting emotional and you're something you're attributing that to perimenopause. As if you knew that even though perimenopause is true, but that I think, and I'm really walking on this, this tendency I have to back away from, you know, when it just feels to.

• 1:21:50Sam Fragoso?

  I said it because I felt like you were explaining away.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:54Sam Fragoso?

  Something that you were feeling.

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:56Sam Fragoso?

  In the moment.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. You were right.

• 1:22:01Sam Fragoso?

  Glad we have you saying that once on the podcast. I still have problems, need fixing.

• 1:22:08Sam Fragoso?

  Would it be best served to read the, this part at the end here?

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:22:14Sam Fragoso?

  Is it fitting? I think to bring us back to the page.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  I trust your judgment.

• 1:22:19Sam Fragoso?

  Okay. Uh, this is from your latest book, Dream Count.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  My phone was ringing. Omeologo calling, but I didn't pick it up. Later, driving home, I would call her back. The phone barely beeping before her hurried voice asked, "Cheer, how did it go? She must have been shattered." And I would reply, a little triumphantly, "Actually, no, she wasn't at all." But now, I let my phone ring. I wanted to savor this moment for just a little bit longer. Kadiatu and Binta, these two thoroughly decent people,

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  mother and daughter, sitting on a sofa, holding hands, their faces bathed in light.

• 1:23:25Speaker 01

  Um, thank you, Sam. Thank you. I feel like you've really taken care. You've taken such care. I just, I just think it's very generous and beautiful, and I appreciate it. And I don't, I hate crying. No, honestly, I hate it. It's perimenopause.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  I'm going home.

• 1:23:50Sam Fragoso?

  Were you still, uh, are you still gonna help me out with my bladder?

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, I'm going to talk to some doctors, I know.

• 1:23:57Sam Fragoso?

  And my, and my other issues? What do you think?

• 1:24:01Sam Fragoso?

  As much as you're thanking me for showing up for you, which I appreciate what you have given me, and I thank so many people, I can't thank you enough.

• 1:24:11Speaker 01

  Thank you, Sam.

• 1:24:12Sam Fragoso?

  Chimamanda. Take care.

• 1:25:17Speaker 00

  And that's our show. If you enjoyed that episode with Chimamanda, be sure to share it on social media, tag us at Talk Easy Pod. I want to give a special thanks this week to Eva Duvernay, Sarita Cannon, Tara Duncan, the team at Knopf, Ona Akinde, and of course, my guest Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie. You can get her latest novel, Dream Count, wherever you do your reading. For more talks with other great writers, I recommend Zadie Smith, George Saunders, Margaret Atwood, and Ta-Nehisi Coates. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can also subscribe to Lemonada Premium for bonus content.

• 1:26:00Speaker 00

  Just hit the subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com. Lastly, be sure to follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, at Talk Easy Pod. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janik Zabrava. Today's talk was edited by Matt Sasaki and mixed by Andrew Bastola. It was taped out of City Box in New York City. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations, Chris Shano. Photographs today come from Sarah Schneider, with additional research from Ben Eisen. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada Media. And I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  Until then, stay safe and solo.

• 1:27:00Speaker 03

  History gets written, then rewritten, sometimes by scholars correcting the record, sometimes by committees deciding what a generation of kids will and won't learn. The version that makes it into the textbook isn't always the only story. It's the one that won out. That's the kind of thing Ground News was built for. It shows you how outlets across the spectrum tell the same story, side by side, so you can spot the shading for yourself. Ground News gives each outlet a factuality rating, so you know how much weight to give the source, and shows you who owns it, so you know what's behind it. The Nobel Peace Center called it "an excellent way to stay informed,

• 1:27:43Speaker 03

  avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview." So go to groundnews.com/rz. That's G-R-O-U-N-D-N-E-W-S dot com slash R-Z for 40% off unlimited access vantage plan. Get it yourself, or gift it to someone who'd rather know than not. Use my link, groundnews.com/rz, so you get the discount and they know I sent you. If you're a fan of learning all sides of history, then Ground News is for you. One more time, groundnews.com/rz.

• 1:28:21Speaker 04

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:28:29Speaker 05

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:28:33Speaker 04

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:28:35Speaker 05

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:28:38Speaker 04

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:28:41Speaker 05

  As I said.

• 1:28:44Speaker 04

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.