Spend Your Money NOW - Before It’s Too Late! (Bill Perkins Final Warning)

OpusClip: Enter the contest and get free credits at https://www.opus.pro/clip-the-future Notion: Check out Notion, the best AI tool for work, right now at https://notion.com/icedcoffee Shopify: Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ich Follow Bill Perkins : On Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/billperkins Website - https://www.diewithzerobook.com/welcome Apply for The Index Membership: https://entertheindex.com/ Add us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan Official Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBQ24VfikOriqSdKtomh0w For sponsorships or business inquiries reach out to: [email protected] For Podcast Inquiries, please DM @icedcoffeehour on Instagram! Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:05 - When life really begins 00:03:07 - How he got rich 00:04:45 - Why he succeeded 00:08:16 - Lessons from books 00:09:13 - Is his net worth accurate? 00:12:33 - Life expectancy 00:13:14 - Feeling vs. being rich 00:15:06 - Why natural gas? 00:18:09 - Sponsor - OpusClip 00:23:02 - Saving vs. spending joy 00:26:25 - Drawing the line on spending 00:28:07 - Fear of death 00:30:36 - Does money bring happiness? 00:37:10 - Best ROI purchases 00:37:14 - Sponsor - Notion 00:40:40 - Spending $ on happiness 00:43:01 - Money optimization blueprint 00:47:49 - Writing the book 00:49:32 - Breaking his own rules 00:50:58 - Advice for low earners 00:52:26 - Trying new things 00:53:13 - Biggest waste of money 00:54:53 - Worst financial mistakes 00:56:04 - Movie investing regrets 00:59:59 - Maximize your 20s 01:03:03 - Spending young with low income 01:04:58 - Sponsor - Shopify 01:11:10 - Over vs. underspending 01:14:32 - Intentional spending 01:16:36 - Best time of life 01:17:32 - Raising humble kids 01:20:11 - Inheritance: yes or no? 01:21:57 - Would he change the book? 01:24:32 - Where he invests 01:27:03 - Advice for entrepreneurs 01:28:44 - What he learned from Bilzerian 01:32:50 - Most impactful fan stories 01:36:11 - Best health ROIs 01:37:19 - Skincare 01:38:46 - Why they started podcast 01:48:07 - Favorite travel spot 01:49:39 - Places he avoids 01:51:47 - FIRE movement 02:23:17 - Panhandling experiment *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  I don't give a about saving. I don't give a about spending. I care about fulfillment and thriving.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  We have all learned to focus on saving your money for your golden years. So our next guest says, actually do the opposite.

• 0:41Graham Stephan?

  I've read your book probably five to six times because I am the exact opposite.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  You're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life. You are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life. Delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately, your body has a vote and it's going to decay. And you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now.

• 1:07Jack Selby?

  I mean, Google lists your net worth at over $100 million. So some people are going to comment that it's not just that easy.

• 1:14Speaker 01

  For those who are like have average intelligence and lots of hustle, there are so many ways to make money.

• 1:20Graham Stephan?

  What's your advice to people with low income?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Like if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is.

• 1:31Jack Selby?

  Bill Perkins, thank you so much for coming on the Ice Coffee Hour.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  It's good to be on.

• 1:35Jack Selby?

  We have two lives and the second one begins when we realize we only have one. What does this quote mean to you?

• 1:41Speaker 01

  It means that I think a lot of people behave as if they're going to live forever or they're going to get a second life like in video games. And when you realize that you only have one life, one ride on this planet, you begin to take it a little bit more seriously. You begin to care a little bit less about what other people think. And you begin to dive deep and chase after what you really want out of this ride.

• 2:04Graham Stephan?

  It's interesting because I've read your book probably five to six times in total. It's the one. One book that people keep telling me to read through because I am the exact opposite of everything that you described in the book. I'm extremely frugal. I like saving money at all costs. And I like delaying gratification. For me, I get a lot of peace of mind knowing that like 30 years from now I'll have enough versus living it up today.

• 2:30Speaker 01

  Right, but is that a fear-based thinking or is that an optimized for fulfillment type thinking?

• 2:35Graham Stephan?

  I would say probably 80% fear, 20% optimization.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Right, and so fear is a great thing that we have, right? It keeps us alive. It keeps us from beating bears or lions on the Serengeti when we were in Triad, right? And it prevents you from getting mugged or whatever it is, right? But it doesn't help you thrive. It only helps you survive. And you're surviving, right? But you're not thriving. And you're not thriving in probably one of the best periods of your life where you have your health and the ability to take advantage of everything that's around you. Whether you want to go heli skiing, swimming, etc. Your health is not going to limit you. Your mental acuity is not going to limit you. If you wanted to go to school or college or spend money on that, your lung capacity isn't going to limit you.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  And so you are living in fear of something in the future and robbing yourself of your current life.

• 3:26Jack Selby?

  Your life has led you to have this very interesting philosophy around why you should spend money while you're young.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:34Jack Selby?

  Instead of saving for the delayed gratification. For those unfamiliar, how did you make your money?

• 3:40Speaker 01

  I started making money as a broker of commodities and then really made significant amounts of capital as a commodities trader in natural gas. And so that's where the money came.

• 3:51Graham Stephan?

  How do you learn how to do that? How do you learn how to trade natural gas and profit from it?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  I think you have to be a person that is, you know, unafraid of risk, has kind of like a stoic attitude about things in order to take the losses and the stress associated with it. I think most people have the intelligence to be a trader, but they don't have the mental fortitude to be a trader. And then you just have to want it. And so what I wanted

• 4:15Speaker 01

  to shorten the story is essentially to be able to exchange. A few hours of my time for a lot of hours of everybody else's time, right? That's what money represents is your time, right? You spend time doing something and you acquire this thing called money, which is fungible for other people's time, right? And they're goods and services. And so I wanted to be rich, you know? I wanted to be rich. I wanted to chase the girls. I wanted to, you know, live the rock star life. You know, that's what a, a young me, you know, those, those are kind of the goals, right? Like on autopilot, right? Of what I, what do I think I want out of life? But I didn't want to have to choose or be frugal or not buy Starbucks. I wanted to not even care what the price was. I wanted to have enough resources to exceed my wants.

• 4:55Graham Stephan?

  And so in that case, are you trading your own money? Or are you working for a firm that gives you capital? And you're trading that capital and getting a percentage of the upside?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Both, both. I, I'm a, I rent out my brain and I, I get a percentage of the money that I make for other people. So some people, you know, they, they, they rent out their bodies. They do manual labor. I, I, I'm a mental.

• 5:15Graham Stephan?

  But what set you apart that you were so profitable at doing this? Like, why were you different than everyone else who's tried doing this and failed?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  I think it's a curiosity in Stoicism. So the, the ability to handle losses and still be able to think through things basically gives you an edge. And then it's not necessarily in trading. That's in life and romantic relationships, et cetera. When things are going wrong in a romantic relationship, the person is like going crazy or things are really bad in a relationship,

• 5:44Speaker 01

  will have reactions that are not necessarily helpful. And those things add up. And a person's a little bit calmer, will think through things, try to come to resolution, will do things that are, are accretive to the relationship or, or healing to the relationship. And so that's huge in any field. The other thing is just being very curious and dedicated to it. So you're very good at what you do, you guys do here. You spend a lot of time and effort. You're curious, you're, you're looking at how other people do things. You're incorporating things at work. You're experimenting. You just become better at something.

• 6:16Jack Selby?

  How did you cultivate this stoicism? Because for me right now, like it's easy to be stoic when things are good. But right now with like the tariffs and this and that, and I see my portfolio, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is just

• 6:28Speaker 01

  He refuses to even open his account anymore.

• 6:31Jack Selby?

  Because I've realized that that's the best way that I can remain stoic in times like this. But if I do check it, I can notice myself getting a little bit emotionally connected to the outcome. And I know that's like for an investor, not what you should want. You kind of just have a method.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:45Jack Selby?

  Tried and true method. How did you cultivate this stoicism?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  I think one, it's training, uh, just reading books, The Daily Stoic, looking at the quotes, et cetera, just kind of like repeating that. But also, um, losing the ego, losing the ego attachment to the result and learning to enjoy the ride and the process. And just kind of sticking with that and being okay with being broke or looking like an idiot or looking like a fool. And so I, I kind of developed that over time, you know, I was kind of trained in that as a kid and the environment I was in. And so you just learn not to care what other people think, including yourself. And then you're just kind of detached from all this like fear.

• 7:23Jack Selby?

  What do you mean trained as a kid? Like, how were you?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  I think, um, you know, I'm, I'm an old guy, right? I, I was born in 69. And I'm like post civil rights kid where the world was a lot different place growing up. And so there was overt racism, like TV shows and, and stuff that was going on then, right? Would just be completely banned or shut out right now. And when, you know, I say this, like when people have kind of like this idea of who you are, let's say you're racist against Indians or blacks or whatever, right? You learn to know that that's not true. I can either accept that and adopt that attitude or not give a what other people think. Now, little did I know at that time, right? That I was being trained to not give a what people think.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Right? At all. Right? Because it doesn't matter what you do or what you say, or you know, I don't need to prove myself to those other people, right? They have their opinions and that's on them, right? And you, you read books like, uh, Don't Take It Personal, that kind of quote out of the Four Agreements, one of my favorite books of all time. If anybody asks me, what's the best book on trading? I go, The Four Agreements. What's the best book on this? The Four Agreements. That is a superpower. The don't give a type of people, uh, I don't care what other people think, including yourself, because a lot of the negative talk that people have comes from themselves.

• 8:46Jack Selby?

  So how did you actually go and, and make changes from what you were reading though? Cause a lot of people, they face adversity like that, or just adversity in general, and it spins them down the negative consequence, that sort of life, rather than the taking it and turning it into a positive. Like why, what made you any different?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Nobody learns piano overnight, right? So if, if, if I say, hey, it'd be really great if you ever play piano. You're like, yeah, I really want to learn piano. This is great. And I come back the next day, I'm like, you're banging on the piano. Like this is terrible, right? Like you're not going to learn in life. I come back in a week, you still have it in a month, still haven't learned it. But if you keep at it, right? Over a course of a year, you're going to be like, holy shit, this guy can play piano and he's pretty good. And so I say that to realize that whatever behavior you're trying to acquire, whatever mindset you're trying to acquire, you're not going to learn an overnight, right? Like these habits take time and you have to stick with it. And so when you say like, how do you acquire it? It's just practice, practice, practice.

• 9:44Jack Selby?

  So despite all of your challenges and adversity, I mean, Google lists your net worth at over a hundred million dollars. And I just have to ask, like, are these Google estimates based in any sort of reality?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Not really. I mean, you can, you can influence what the estimate is. You don't, you kind of don't want your, your net worth out there. Is, is, has it been north of a hundred million dollars? Yes, it has been.

• 10:05Jack Selby?

  Has it been, but with these tariffs recently?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  It's going down. Yeah. I mean, I, I get, I get smashed on days, just like the, everybody else, right? Like it's going up and down. I'm looking, I'm like, oh, I have to spend less this year, or maybe a lot less from the next five years. Uh, you know, or, or I get to spend more, you know, over the next five years or next year, you know?

• 10:27Jack Selby?

  What's interesting is in your book, you say that you have to pick a time in your life where you want your net worth to be at its peak.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 10:34Jack Selby?

  And then after that, then your net worth should decline as you age, which is completely counterintuitive to a lot of people. They're like, you should always be growing. And as you're growing, you can always just continue scraping a little bit more off the top. What was your age that you picked that you wanted your net worth to be at?

• 10:47Speaker 01

  It's right, it's right about now. Right about now. And so that can change, right? Because it's your biological age, right? Like, at the end, like, if we could just do this simply, like, the day before you died, you don't want your net worth going up, right? You want to spend everything you've got. But unfortunately, your body decays. It doesn't just die, right? And so, long before that, you'll be doing less things and have less use for money, right?

• 11:11Graham Stephan?

  So in terms of your net worth, was this intentional to pick right now? Or was this because the market was going up so rapidly that you couldn't spend?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Has nothing to do with market, has to do with your biological age and your body decaying.

• 11:24Graham Stephan?

  So how do you test this?

• 11:26Speaker 01

  I mean, this is, this is one of the hardest parts. Like, this is reasons why it's not a strict formula. You have to understand, like, there are people smoking, heavily overweight, et cetera, at 40, who should be spending like rock stars, right? And there are people who are five years older than me, who are like, hey, you're actually still on plateau, right? Like, they're running Ironmans, they're running marathons. There's like, they have the body of a 30-year-old, right? And they're able to do all the things, right? And so, it's really based on like, how are my knees functioning? What's my lung function? Do I have cardiovascular disease? What's my lung capacity? You know, what's my VO2 max? Am I able to go to Paris and walk seven miles and really enjoy Paris? Or am I gonna walk one mile?

• 12:08Speaker 01

  You know, my parents, my mom, it's like, it's, a lot of people have parents where it's hard to even get them on a plane for 10 hours. They don't need any money for traveling, do they? Right? Do they need that international ticket? No. You know, so you can see the utility, their ability to convert their money into experiences or into fulfillment declines as you age, right? I'm just giving you a couple of examples. And that really depends on your biological age, not just the numerical year you were born. And so, a lot of that is just, you know, there's this whole quantified self-crowd that, you know, optimized for health, like the Gary Breckers and Peter Attias and Huberman's of the world, et cetera, you know, which Peter Attia is my doctor.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  You know, we do all the stats, et cetera. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm a bad boy. Yes, I should be doing more cardio, but given where I am, this is kind of the things I'll be able to do over the course of my life. And this is what the last 10 years of my life is going to look like.

• 13:03Graham Stephan?

  So based on that, how long are you expect to live for?

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I think I'm a 76 to 84 guy. 84 is probably what the charts would say.

• 13:11Graham Stephan?

  I've heard for anyone who's under the age of 50 now that they could live past 100 with with modern.

• 13:16Jack Selby?

  With AI and medicine merging.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, could. And everybody with a biology textbook could get an A in biology, but that's not how it goes, does it? You know what I mean? Like these could's.

• 13:27Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Are are are are just like what is achievable, not what human beings do, right? It's like, oh, why? Why do some people get As and ones? Why do some people flunk out? Right? Like, they just don't.

• 13:39Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  They're not. They're out of compliance, right? They don't do their homework. They they have other priorities, et cetera.

• 13:44Jack Selby?

  Well, regardless of whatever Google says, you've done really well for yourself.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 13:49Jack Selby?

  Made a great living. When did you first become rich versus when did you start to feel rich?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I felt rich before I became rich. Um, and I think it was around 25 when, you know.

• 13:59Jack Selby?

  When you started feeling rich?

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Oh, no, before that, like 22. As soon as I made more money than my mom, it was like the best day of my life.

• 14:05Jack Selby?

  You felt completely.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, you couldn't have told me. I was like.

• 14:11Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, what sort of lifestyle?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  And that and the funny thing is I was still living at home with my mom, not being rich. I was just about to move out to to to the the pizza oven that I lived in with Jason Ruffo.

• 14:23Graham Stephan?

  Do you think you felt richer then or now?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Then, I mean, just the feeling of just like, just the the upward trajectory, the the rate of change in my life, which is so great. And going from straight broke to like 50 something thousand dollars.

• 14:39Jack Selby?

  That's how much you made.

• 14:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, something 40, 50, whatever the number is. I was like, oh, I'm a puppy. That stands for Black Urban Professional, for those people who don't know. There's yuppies and buppies. And I was just ecstatic, ecstatic. I had extra discretionary income. I could take a girl on a date. I could pay for it. It was the best feeling.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  I think it was like, uh, late 20s, 28, 29. I was rich, you know, millionaire.

• 15:04Jack Selby?

  So you made millions between the ages of 22 and 29?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yes. What did you do with the money? I didn't really do much the first time. I didn't, you know, I was so inculcated with the hive mind culture, right? I didn't know what to do. Go to Vegas, hang out with friends, go to bars, right? Like, I didn't really think about what do I really want, right? I was advertised a lifestyle that I thought I wanted, and I followed that, right? And I was also very obsessed with natural gas trading back then. I golfed. I hung out with other traders. I went to Vegas. I chased girls. I did those things, you know? Why natural gas over anything else you could be trading? I think, um, you know, I, I serenandipitously was a peon on the New York Mercantile Exchange, and the natural gas contract was just starting then. And I looked into it, and I was like,

• 15:53Speaker 01

  this is the, this is the future. New commodity, not that many people into it. Place where, you know, there was legacy crude oil traders, right? Like, and this growing efficient fuel was the wave. And I was like, oh, this is where I want to go. And I could, you know, in theory, make a bunch of money. And when did your perspective on money begin to shift? There was a book called Your Money or Your Life. You probably read it. That completely changed my view of money and what money is. And so if you've read the book, you know that one of the definitions they use that they, they say holds up all the time is money is something you exchange your time for, right? You change your life. So there's a lot of what I, what I think are didactic exercises, very painful, but you go through them, and then you have a visceral

• 16:37Speaker 01

  understanding of spending your time for money, right? They, they ask you to count every single nickel and penny that comes into your life, then count every single hour and minute you used in order to achieve that money, right? Take the taxes out, and there's your net true hourly wage. And you've done that, right? You've done that painfully for a period of time. And then after that, uh, you get rid of the dollar signs, and it just becomes hours. So whatever you buy is in hours or minutes of your life. And you do that for a while, and you go, holy You really get in touch with your values.

• 17:09Graham Stephan?

  See, I did that exact same thing. I must have read that book when I was 14 or 15 years old. And I started looking at every single purchase as hours of my life.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:18Graham Stephan?

  But that caused me to not want anything. Because I would look at like a Starbucks coffee and I'd say, I have to exchange 45 minutes of my life after tax to go and buy one coffee. And that coffee might last me 30 minutes.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:33Graham Stephan?

  So I'm spending 45 minutes for 30 minutes. That's a bad deal. But maybe I could buy a pair of shoes for one hour of my life and I get those shoes for a year. That seems like a pretty good trade off for like physical things that last.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  I went the same way as you. I went super frugal the fir- when I read it. And the other thing is, it's not, it's not about the, uh, it's not about the, the time equation. Like you, some of the most enjoyable things in your life will only last two minutes. I'm winking at some of the guys out there.

• 18:03Graham Stephan?

  Maybe, maybe.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  One minute, alright. So, so, so it's really about, it's really about the yield on fulfillment, right? Like, cause I, you know, around that time, I started thinking about like, what is it all for, right? There were lots of, uh, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a millionaire in Lower Manhattan, right? And I'm busted at the time. And I was thinking like, well, I want to be rich before I'm 30, which I think a lot of people say that, right? And I think, um, in that statement is kind of this understanding that the ability of them to enjoy the money or convert it into meaningful experiences declines as they age. Nobody says I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86.

• 18:40Graham Stephan?

  And when it comes to the Ice Coffee Hour, I just want to say that short form content has been one of our biggest drivers of growth on the Ice Coffee Hour. Like even this episode with Bill Perkins, we'll often clip up the most memorable moments and post them as shorts throughout TikTok, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, you name it. But let's be honest, it also takes a lot of time to do it correctly. That's why tools like our sponsor, Opus Clip, are a game changer. And right now they're celebrating their two year anniversary with a huge giveaway. They're giving out a $5,000 cash prize, exclusive swag, and even a MacBook Pro to one lucky winner. Opus Clip isn't just a clipping tool anymore though. It's a full AI powered video editor.

• 19:17Jack Selby?

  Built for creators. It can automatically pull in your long form YouTube videos, find the best moments, add captions, B-roll, and even schedule clips to post while you're away. It's basically like having an entire editing team, but built by AI. Top creators like Jubilee and Darman are already using it, and we use it too. I mean, do you see this clip Togi's reacting to right here? That clip was made by Opus Clip. And everyone who joins gets free credits just for participating. All you have to do is go to opus.pro slash clip hyphen the hyphen future right now to learn more and enter the contest. Again, that is opus.pro slash clip hyphen the hyphen future, or click the link down below in the description. Seriously, guys, getting clips is extremely expensive and a very long process, but you could just use Opus Clip and get them done instantly for a fraction of the cost. So I highly recommend it. Thank you so much to Opus Clip for sponsoring this episode.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Nobody says I want to be a millionaire by the time I'm 86, or 72, or 73, right? It's always before I'm 30, Forbes 30 under 30, under 40, whatever, right? Some age that's below 40. And when I was walking around lower Manhattan, looking at these very wealthy traders, I was like, yeah, but what's an extra million going to do for them? I mean, what are they gonna do? Drive a nicer car? Their kids to school in a nicer car? What's, where's the fun in that? Right? Because I'm a young 20-something limbic system, driving all my decisions like, how are you gonna get any more girls with that? You can't take any girls on a yacht when you got kids, you gotta drive them to school, right? But aside from my goofy thought process, like I had something right,

• 20:43Speaker 01

  and that was basically the, uh, the utility of money declines as you age to the individual. Like, I'm not an institution. I'm not gonna, I'm not like the United States of America or Swiss bank. I'm not gonna last 200, 500 years, right? I got an 86-year ride, maybe, if I'm lucky, right? And unfortunately, that ride isn't at a consistent health. It's like, I'm gonna reach, uh, physical maturity, mental maturity, and then I'm gonna plateau and decline. And so, I'm like, holy

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I gotta get rich fast so I can really enjoy my life. And it's like, what's the purpose of getting rich? Like in that, all those, all those questions are going on, right? And so that's when I started to think like, wow, at a certain point, the reward goes away, right? Obviously, when you die, but even before that, right? Because like you're in a nursing home and you, everybody's seen, they've had parents, et cetera, you know, or grandparents that are like, can't really convert that money into meaningful experiences, right? Aside from survival. And so I was like, holy, what there, then there must be a curve. There must be a utility of money curve. And then when you start thinking about that, like, wait a minute. If you're gonna go to work and exchange hours of your life for money, and then you don't convert that money into experiences, right?

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Whatever, and experiences in the broader sense, choice, choices, right? Whether it's buying a watch or building bridges for poor people or et cetera, then you essentially waste your hours of your life. And that's the only thing you got, right? And so, and then to think about, then there must be a derivative on this. There must be a peak. If I'm supposed to spend it before I die, there must be a peak. And is that peak a number? And I'm like, wait, wait, no, no, it's not a number. It doesn't matter what the number does, it doesn't matter what your net worth is. It's focused on your health and the decline rate of your health. And so your, your net worth peak is not a number, it's a date, right? It has to do with your health and your age. And so that's how I came to that conclusion very, you know, I'm condensing it down and leaving some things out. But that's when I was like, holy, right?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  To be grinding it out in your seventies to make more money for a party at 80 is absurd. Yeah. Right, it's easy to point it out that way with those two numbers, but it's equally as absurd, you know, what we were talking about earlier, what you're doing. Like, you know, when I became very frugal, my boss, uh, you know, I saved some money on like no salary and my boss called me a idiot. I was like, wait, what? You know, and I ping ponged on autopilot to the other way. I began spending money crazy, which is not what you want to be doing either. That's not what I'm advocating for. What I'm, what I'm advocating for is people to think about, what are the things that they're fulfill them? And, and what they think those experiences they want to have on their way to the grave, whether it's in your twenties, thirties, forties, et cetera, or break them down in a five years period,

• 23:29Speaker 01

  see what they are, right? And then go out and pursue those.

• 23:33Graham Stephan?

  What would you say to the people who get more fulfillment from saving than spending?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Let's assume they're my very close friend, because at the end of the day, I can't tell you, I can't tell a addict that one's bad for them. I mean, I can tell them, right? But you know, they're like, you got a problem. I don't have a problem.

• 23:50Graham Stephan?

  I can stop anytime I want to.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like you have a problem with my, you know what I mean? That's the people with saving, right? But at the end of the day, what I try and point out is like, it's suboptimal. Like the point of saving, yes, there is some hedonic value to know you're doing the right thing, et cetera. But the purpose of delayed gratification indefinitely is no gratification. And unfortunately, your body has a vote and it's going to decay. And you will not be able to get that gratification to the extent you can now. And so the purpose of working is the reward and the reward is not the token. The token is useless. Who gives a [__]? You care about the experiences that it's going to afford you, the life it's going to afford you. Like builders don't really give a [__]

• 24:35Speaker 01

  about hammers and saws, except to the fact that it helps them build houses. If they didn't, they'd thrown them the [__] away. And so imagine you had a, you know, people that are just saving money to be saving money are just collecting hammers and saws to never build a building.

• 24:48Graham Stephan?

  What if they're collecting options in terms of they're collecting the ability to have the choice to do whatever they want?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  I think that's great. And I think there is a place for saving, but those options expire, just like you will. And not only will you expire, this time period will expire. So it's not just the one death you have, it's the many deaths you have, the single you, the you without kids, the you with small kids, the you with kids out of the house, the you that can actually sprint, the you that will never sprint again and for the rest of your life, right? I'm just pointing out some, there's lots of them, right? And so in each period of your life, certain activities, choices are optimal, you know? And in certain periods, they don't transfer well, or they don't transfer at all. And so depending on who you are and what you want to have out of your life, when you get off autopilot, you think about what experiences I want to have in my life, then,

• 25:40Speaker 01

  you know, you can allocate your funds correctly. You can save for the things that are, you know, you get the spend burn ratio right, right? But just to say I'm preserving options, like, who gives a [__]? Like what option you're saving for, list them to me. Tell me what they are. To have this nebulous thing is just fear-based thinking and just trying to justify it by saying, I'm saving for options. I'm like, you're full of, you just haven't really done the homework about your life. You haven't really thought about what you wanted out of life. And you're hiding behind this like, I have a bunch of money thing to justify the laziness of not really getting off autopilot and thinking about what experiences you want to have in each period of your life. Right? Like, the purpose of the money, right, is for your fulfillment, right? And part of the fulfillment is planning the activity, doing the activity,

• 26:25Speaker 01

  and then reliving the activity and talking about the activity. Like, before we got on, we were talking about your wedding and how you thought it was great. And he was saying, hey, you thought you could have made it better if you loosened up a little bit, right? And so, when you talk about your wedding and it was great, et cetera, you're getting fulfillment from that, right? Zero cost fulfillment. How did you pay for that? You paid for it earlier when you spent the money, and now you're reaping the dividends. And so, if you delay gratification pretty far enough, you don't get that many memory dividends. You get less fulfillment.

• 26:54Speaker 00

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• 27:23Speaker 01

  Less high score and less ability to do some of those activities.

• 27:26Graham Stephan?

  Now, this might be oddly specific, but where do you draw the line for opportunity cost if you're in an area or time of your life where your time, working hours are really valuable, whereas in the future, you don't think you're going to have the same ROI as you do today?

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's like, these calculations are tough and everybody's going to have to, you know, that's why these like variables come in there. But you just want the mental model, like, how am I thinking about this? This is okay. 25, I can take, uh, three ski trips when I'm 30.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Well, one ski trip now, because I'm gonna give time out. Like, what is a better deal for me? Right? You might say, well, I'm gonna be 30. I'm still physically fit, right? I don't reuse physical maturity until 33. That's a great return and I still get many years of a memory dividend. I'm gonna grind it out and have three trips later. Plus, as a young male in your 30s, the sexual power dynamics, you know, I'll be able to meet a lot more girls as a 30-year-old with my shit together as opposed to a 25-year-old without my shit together. So you might make that decision. When you're 60, you might not make that decision, saying three trips at 65 versus one trip now? I don't know. My knee hurts. My back hurts.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  This might be my last, you know, ski trip. I might not even be able to ski. You know, the friends that are with me that I would go, that actually add to that enjoyment, they might not be around. George is 70. He might be dead, you know? Whatever it is, like, I'm just making up these scenarios. So that thought process, right? Like, not kind of that autopilot, like, oh, I'm just gonna save, save, save, save? Just thinking it through. And so I think like a 25-year-old will have a lot of arguments and probably tilt towards like, hey, I'm gonna take three ski trips later and Mr. 60, 65-year-old might be numb.

• 29:08Graham Stephan?

  Speaking of death, when is that something that you started to consider? When did that start creeping in and all of a sudden your life isn't just gonna last forever?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  It was kind of early. But more profound, you know, when I started thinking about like money, it's purpose. Books like Your Money or Life, fulfillment and, and kind of like, where are you gonna get the maximum enjoyment out of your life? Like, where's most of your fulfillment gonna come for your life? And so I thought it was like, being aware of your death and that you're gonna expire kind of like cuts through your ego, right? Like, if you're in a plane crash or like you were a terminal disease, you know, you're gonna die, you're gonna have great health, but you're gonna die in a year. Like, it's gonna cut through all the ego and you're gonna live the life you really wanna live, right? You're gonna do the things, you're gonna say that I love you, you're gonna take the risk. You're gonna do all the things, cuz you're gonna die in a year.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  And so. You know, you don't live each day as if it was your last. You live each day with death in mind in the future. Right. The things you do now are actually influenced by the day you die. It's just a little bit more remote. Right. Cause the day before you die, you would do certain things. The two days before you would die, do certain things, a month before, a year before, et cetera, and so on. And so how you behave, whether you save, the risks you take, the things you do are really influenced by the day you die. And the deterioration rate of your body. Right. It's just an integral, right, over time. And so being aware of kind of the idea of like, when you're gonna die, you know, getting a range of that date.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And your health is extremely, extremely important for you to have the courage to implement. You know, this holy, I'm not gonna be as rich as I was last year. I need to convert them in experiences. Like, I need to live the life I want. It like kind of forces you to live and take it seriously. Like when you're on vacation and the vacation, you know, it was never gonna end. You might never, like, when I lived in New York, I never went to the Empire State Building. I never went to all these stores unless somebody came in town. Because I could always do it. Right. When, but then when it came in town, it's like, oh, they're here for a weekend. They take, they, they go see the things, they go to the plays, they go, whatever. They take full advantage of New York. And so I think kind of life is that way. A lot of people think like, it's always gonna be there. I'll always be able to go to Japan.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I'll always be able to do X, Y, and Z. Later in life, these things are going to happen. Right. And then they, they let their lives pass them by.

• 31:38Jack Selby?

  One thing that is, is a bit of a taboo topic, but would you say money buys happiness? I've seen like, I'd rather be crying in a Ferrari than a Civic. What do you think about that?

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I actually think it does. But you need to know how to use it. You know, you have these Chuck E. Cheese tokens, right? And you need to know how to go to the desk and exchange them for the comb or, or the, of the doll. And that Chuck E. Cheese and it's kind of like a joke. But what I'm trying to say is, is that going back to the hammers and saws, right? It's a tool. And so I can give you all the power tools and all the things to build a house. But if you don't know how to use those tools. You will not build a house. And so I could give you a ton of money, right? And if you don't know how to use that tool called money to build a life of happiness, then you won't. You'll just have a bunch of money. And so what you find is when people point out examples of like,

• 32:30Speaker 01

  money ruined this person or money didn't make them happy is generally they did not know how to use the tool.

• 32:36Graham Stephan?

  When do you feel like it starts tapering off in terms of satisfaction with money? Is there a point of diminishing returns?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  I think it's person specific. Money for all the things you want, plus a little bit more, right? So that depends on the things you want. And what happens is with money is that you discover a lifestyle and things that you want that you never knew. Like you don't come out of the womb knowing that you like chocolate and you hate onions and I like France and I don't like Thailand or whatever, whatever the mix is, right? You go out in life and then you can discover the things you like and you want, right? I remember when I never wanted to leave Jersey City. I thought it was the best place in the world and I never want to leave. Why would anybody leave Jersey City? Right? Went out, discovered like what a idiot I was. Nobody needs more than a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, blah, blah, blah. Make two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, have zero, zero left over. You're like, oh, what an idiot I was.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  I can really use two hundred and fifty thousand dollars. That's even being efficient and frugal like you, right? I could still spend it. Then it becomes a million, right? And so when you say the average person, it's very easy to pick a number that's like double what they have or triple what they have or 2,000 income. Then you meet somebody that's made five, making five million dollars a year, et cetera. And you're like, it's not even close, right? It's not diminishing at the same rate, you know? And I, I think it's when the person is now having capital that they'll never spend and living that life, right? You could just point it out. They don't even realize it, right? But you can just point it out, then, then we're at enough.

• 34:09Graham Stephan?

  I saw a study on CNBC that actually said that in order for people to feel rich, they need double from what they currently make. And they found that across pretty much every single income group. Whether you make a hundred, you need 200. If you make 200, you need 400, 500, you need a million. Yeah. It just kept going.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that, people are not finding the concept of enough, right? Like they're not in touch with what they want. And part of that, which I think is going on is they're discovering the world. Right? You don't know what it's like to be on a super yacht until you can afford to rent a super yacht. And then you're like, holy, I would like to be on a super yacht a lot more. You know, I need to make more money to rent super yachts, right? And so, you know, and it's like, I'm actually much happier on a super yacht than I was not on a super yacht, right? And I'm getting fulfillment out of it, etc. I didn't know I liked to travel as much as I did. I didn't know I liked Japan as much as I did. I didn't know I liked X, Y, and Z. And so I think part of that is going on, but also people just aren't having a concept enough, right? Like they, you know, there is, that is not taught

• 35:08Speaker 01

  here. It's not part of the culture, the concept of enough.

• 35:11Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, I think Tai Lopez was telling us that 10 million was the point of diminishing returns, where everything beyond that point, you start getting a little less than what you could get going from like zero to 10.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  That wasn't true for me.

• 35:25Jack Selby?

  I thought it was like, what he said was a few million, single digit million.

• 35:28Graham Stephan?

  That was, that was per year income.

• 35:31Jack Selby?

  Oh, $10 million in terms of net.

• 35:32Graham Stephan?

  Net worth.

• 35:32Jack Selby?

  Okay.

• 35:33Graham Stephan?

  Or $2 million a year was optimal if you want to do like 99% of things that you could do, that was enough to buy it.

• 35:40Speaker 01

  I went to Thailand and I saw people that were visibly like I felt were extremely happy and more fulfilled than I was at the time that I went, that were at like fractions of income or like, cause I know. And I've seen scenarios where personally like I'm happy, I'm very grateful where I'm at. I live in, I live in gratitude. I can't believe the life I get to live, but I'm like, oh, I can convert more into more fulfillment and more happiness. And so, um, you know, I'm not going to cry if I go back to like sleeping on a couch, right? I'll be like, it sucks, but I'm going to have a great life and I'm going to get as much as I can out of this life, no matter where I'm at, with the resources I have. But if I'm giving more resources, I'll know how to use them.

• 36:25Jack Selby?

  I agree with, with travel being a massive like opening of the third eye. Like when I, it's, it's interesting because a lot of the time that we spend now, Graham, with like our friend group and stuff like that, like we're around people that for the most part have like comfortable financial lives. And then when I went to travel in like Southeast Asia and like Manila, Philippines and stuff like that, like I saw a completely different, like way different than the United States too. Like, like low levels of like poverty in the United States is completely different.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:54Jack Selby?

  Than like. Low levels in Southeast Asia and for me to see that and a lot of the times it seems like they were they're pretty content with like for me that was just like it was mind mind blowing.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:05Jack Selby?

  And it completely like reshaped my entire understanding of like, you know, what is needed in America.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not it's not need like when we left the caves.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  We left living in a world of need. We live in a world of want. We don't operate on a need basis. We operate on a want basis. And so a lot of the questions for us in the Western world is like, what do you want? What do you want your ride to look like?

• 37:29Graham Stephan?

  What do you think are the biggest mistakes that rich and poor people are making when it comes to their money?

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Not realizing that they're whatever it is like it's a tool for their life, for their fulfillment, right? They're realizing that.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Like if you're very poor, the first step you're trying to do is survive, right? Like once you have survival covered, the rest is your choices. It's like, what kind of ride do you want to have? Right? How do you want to live your life? And so I think a lot of people think that money is a goal and it's not. It's just one variable out of like the three macro variables, your wealth, your health and your time, right? To drive fulfillment, right? And so I think people get that formula backwards.

• 38:12Graham Stephan?

  And what would you say are the highest ROI ways to spend your money? Although really quick, I just want to mention that our sponsor Notion has helped keep us running smoothly on the Iced Coffee Hour. We've used it for everything from guest planning, tracking sponsors, keeping our schedule organized. It is the glue that keeps us together.

• 38:28Jack Selby?

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• 38:33Graham Stephan?

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• 39:07Graham Stephan?

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• 39:15Jack Selby?

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• 39:36Speaker 01

  We were just talking about that, like some of the horrors. In terms of fulfillment, the things that I found are, for me, anything that I'm able to do things and experience new things with friends. Right? Like, most of the time, like, I joke that, if you go to the movie yourself, you're either a critic or a psychopath. That's not true, right? Like, some people like to go to the movies themselves. But, like, we are wired to connect, right? We have whites in our eyes. We can tell if somebody's looking at us from a faraway distance. I think an evolutionary biologist told me that, like, we're one of the few animals that can do that, right? All babies dance. You can go into a jungle that nobody's ever met this tribe, start playing a beat, and the baby will start dancing, right?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  And it's a method to connect with each other, right? And so, a lot of the fulfillment, for me, and a lot of other humans, I'm not saying that every single human, is doing interesting things, learning things, having fun with other humans. Right? Because we're wired to connect. And so, games, very cheap. You can make them up yourself, or hikes, or walking, right? Costs nothing to pay to go into a state park and go see the wonders of the state park with people you love and love hanging out with and share that experience.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  You can tear up a piece of paper and play werewolves and write the roles down and play a game right there, so.

• 41:00Jack Selby?

  That's a card game for those.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, card game.

• 41:01Jack Selby?

  It's a board game and you could just cut up a piece of paper.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, the same thing with cards, right? Like, well, you can't do it with cards because then people will know, you got the six. But but cards, board games, things like that. I think those are the highest ROI's. Then when you get into like money, it's like boat, boating trip, buying the bike tour. Like when you go into a city and you're visiting friends, get the tour with your friends. Make it a goofy tour, wear different hats. Like those are amazing, right? Those are supersizing your trip. Like one of the best parts of like a very expensive yacht trip with friends, etc. Was like going on shore and taking the bike tour with the guides, with the e-bike tour. It was like, this was the best day ever, you know?

• 41:42Jack Selby?

  So now that you're at the point where there's probably very few things financially that you want, that you can't really afford. Like at that level, what are the things that you spend your money on that really give you the most amount of joy?

• 41:56Speaker 01

  I think, I think anything that like, I think my boat, so the wakesurf boat, I have a wakesurf boat.

• 42:03Jack Selby?

  That's awesome.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  I got addicted to wakesurfing and that's gotta be the highest ROI thing I bought. Because you can put 16 people on the boat, everybody's cheering, you're having the times of your life. It's a memory maker in spades. Like it's memory dividends upon memory dividends and new ones coming out. And people, you know, giving them that experience and teaching them how to wakesurf, hanging out with my daughters, friends. It's just absurd, the return on that boat, right? People look at it and be like, that's a expensive boat. I was like, do you understand how many core memories I've had? And great times and other people's had great times and connecting times that are radioactive, like friends meeting friends and talking on and them learning how to wakesurf and then doing it on their own, etc. It's amazing.

• 42:50Jack Selby?

  How much was the boat?

• 42:51Speaker 01

  My boat, because I think it was like 300,000 or something like that. I have a very fancy boat, right?

• 42:56Jack Selby?

  Sounds bad as I thought.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  No, it's a higher ROI. And then like even a Like in St. Thomas, like, I was like, in St. Thomas, I was like, oh, do I want to get a boat? And I was like, let me get a dinghy to see how like, I got a dinghy. He said cruise around and we just call him dinghy, dinghy days. All around the islands, like go to the ocean, the BVI and a dinghy or whatever. And I was like, this is amazing. And then I bought, you know, you know, you're, it's one man's trash is another one's treasure. Like the boat I have that people like, oh, you got a nice, really nice boat. It was their tender. So I bought this. Yeah, I bought this as of it, that was like, uh, another guy's tender, right? It's my boat that's like, that's a great boat. You know what I mean? It was his tender and he's like getting a new one. And I have like the most amazing time, you know, friends go down. I'm like, take my boat out, have a great time.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  So for me, though, that has been, you know, an amazing, amazing memory maker, amazing fulfilling times. Uh, one of the best investments that, that I can make that like costs money, right? But there are other things like taking a hike with friends that costs no money. That are very fulfilling, that are really amazing times as well.

• 44:03Graham Stephan?

  So if you're giving people a blueprint, where do they start? If there's like five steps that they need to do to reach this point where they truly optimize their money?

• 44:12Speaker 01

  It, it, it, first, I, I think the first step is like, figure out the day you think you're going to die. There's actual tables, you can go see your doctors, et cetera, and, and your health, right? Like that is like number one, right? Like when you're going to die. And then the second thing is like, whatever periods you want to break them down, five years, 10 years, et cetera. Break them down and write as much as you can, the type of life you want to have spiritually, physically, uh, activities wise, et cetera. What you want in those buckets, right? Like you want to have a kid and you want to see your kid go to kindergarten, you want to graduate school, you want to go to Japan, you want to learn whatever, right? Put, put those in each period. The further you go out, it gets harder and harder, right?

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Because it's hard to know what you want, you're going to discover, right? So you have to leave some for discovery, right? I'm going to try these things, I'm going to turn, try and learn French, whatever, right? And then when you discover it's like, oh, your life can go in these paths. So you have to, you have to constantly update this, this thing. But that is the first, first, first, first, first step. Right is what do I want out of this ride? For before we spend a nickel, before we even think about the money, what do I want out of this ride? Because you might write like on one extreme is like, all I want to do is take walks in the park, visit with grandma and play chess. I'm like, well, quit your job. That miserable job you hate. Let's get this other job. This is the amount of money you need, right? Like this is the whole your money, your life, the fire, financial independence, retire early.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Like, what do I really want out of life? Once you know that, right? We can start talking about spending, saving, grinding, not grinding, et cetera. Right? What does the arc of your life look like? You know, are you the type of person that's like, I just want to garden? Hang out, play chess and checkers with my friends? Are you like, I want to go travel the world and, and, and be on yachts, et cetera? Is that fulfilling for you? You know, so I think knowing who you are and what you want out of life is kind of the first step.

• 46:11Graham Stephan?

  And then after that, how do you get over the fear of spending down your money?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  What helps me every day when I wake up and I go into my closet, there's a clock that tells me the percent of, of, of, of life I've had left. You can look it up online. There's this guy that makes these clocks and you put in your birthday and you know, it'll say like 50, 70%, 69%, whatever, wherever I'm at, right? And I also have your life in weeks calendar. Like, and you mark off each week, right? And I think that, that awareness of your demise and helps you get over fears. Right? You get really bold when you know you're going to die.

• 46:51Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, that's one of those weird panics I get every now and then is I just think to myself, usually people believe that like your 50s is middle age. But when you look at the average life expectancy is like 78. It really occurs before the age of 40.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 47:06Graham Stephan?

  And like really 39 is kind of like middle age. And then I had this existential panic, like 2 o'clock in the morning, I'll wake up and be like, wait a second, in a few years, is it half over? And I freak out. I'm like, wait a second, that can't be half over.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Well, don't freak out. I mean, like, just take it seriously. Just realize like, wow, I have this, you know, you're young, you have a body that can transfer. You have this biosuit that responds to your wants. If you want to run, it'll let you run more. You want to lift heavy things? It'll give you muscles to lift heavy more things, right? Like it will do what you want to do, right? But eventually, and also it's like,

• 47:45Speaker 01

  It will say, I will last longer in the state for you too, right? I will carry you further because you are doing things, right? And so you're, you're in a great, great, great spot, right? Like you got like what most Americans don't have down. The ability to optimize and get more out of every single dollar you have, right? And you're in touch with things that you value, you don't value. You're like, I don't value that Starbucks coffee, right? A lot of people are on autopilot the other way, right? And that's why I've sold more books in Japan than I have in the U.S. Right? I've sold over 500,000 books in Japan and like 100, 200,000 books in here. Right? And it's, it's been out in Japan for far less time than it has been here. Right? Because the Japanese are notorious savers, right?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Like they're, they don't have the like, we're broke problem. And, and you know, this book isn't just for the rich people. It's really about how do you allocate your life resources? If you have zero money, you still have a decision on whether or not you go goofing off and playing cards with your friends, or you go, go to grandma and hang out with grandma before she dies. Right? It's a, it's a, it's a book about choices. How long did it take you to write the book Die With Zero? You could say a lifetime because the ideas didn't come like, oh, I got it overnight. Right? There were like events that happened in my life and I wrestled with this idea for, for a long time. But it took like 18 months, I think from like, okay, I'm going to write this book to getting an outline,

• 49:09Speaker 01

  to, you know, working with a writer, going through it, writing chapters, tearing them out, giving to a friend, him reading it, giving feedback. I'm like, you're right, that doesn't make sense. This is too confusing. Going back and trying to get a book that speaks to the most people, right? I wanted something to save my life, right? And I've said this before and people are like, what the do you mean save your life? And I'm like, well, listen, if he.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Got hit by a bus, right? Or whatever. And I went in and did the cardio and then mouth to mouth or whatever, all the things. And he came like, like, oh, you saved my life. You know what's true? You know what's the most true thing about that? He's still gonna die. He's a hundred percent gonna die. He's just not gonna die that day. Right? And so what does he get when he doesn't die that day? Well, he gets more I love yous, more walks in the parks, more trips to Japan, more, all the things he wants out of life. Right? All the fulfillment that he wants out of life. He gets more to do that before his final destination. Okay? So when I write a book that teaches you about optimizing your life and having more fulfillment as opposed to wasting it away. Right? I'm saving your life. I'm saving a piece of your life. I'm giving you more.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  The same as this in the case where I did that for him. And so I thought about that for me and I was like, I, you're afraid of running out of money. I'm afraid of wasting my life.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  That is my number one fear is wasting this ride. How often do you not follow the rules of your book? Often, often, because autopilot, I think, is a default mode of humans. Right? I think we become good at things in different areas and then become automatic. Just like driving, right? Like when you first learn how to drive, it was like chaos. Right? It was like, I got a signal and you thought, hit the signal button, check the mirror, you know, it's very like, ah, right? And park and whatever. And now you're driving home, you're listening on the phone. You, you, you don't even know how you got to where you were. Right? It just becomes automatic. Right? Even your job, like editing a video, putting the thumbnails, right? Like at first it was hard and do I put it here? And then you're like, cut, cut, snip, snip, snip, whatever. Right? And there's some creativity in changes. Right?

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Anybody who does sales or excited, their job becomes easy to them. It becomes a routine. All, all their, all their activities become routine and that helps you survive. Right? You don't walk up to a door, like I say in the book and go, is this a door? You know, round thing seems like a door. You're just like, door, open door, go. Right? Memory of a dividend right there and autopilot. Serving you well. But. That doesn't help you thrive, right? And so I need to be reminded by my wife, by what I wrote,

• 51:50Speaker 01

  viscerally, to get off autopilot and think about my decisions so that I have the most fulfilling life possible. So that when I'm back on autopilot, I set up the processes and systems that I have a very fulfilling ride.

• 52:01Graham Stephan?

  What's your advice to people with low income?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  I mean, for everybody, it's the health aspect of it. Like, there's no bigger single determinant on your fulfillment than is your health, right? And those choices to be healthy, right? And you can be healthy with low money or no money, right? You can hike, you can walk, you can avoid eating, right? But it's really to think about your life, the same thing, to think about what choices can you make and what will be more fulfilling for you, right? It's that mindset, right? Is, you know, should I spend time with my daughter, reading books with my daughter, or hanging out with my friends? Or should I be going to grandmother's house?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Like, what is going to give me the most fulfilling ride, right? Right? It's not a rich person's books, it's a living's person's book, right? This book is about living, right? Like, you know, there's lots of quotes about, like, most people, most people, most people die in their 30s and are buried in their 70s. You know what I mean? Right? Like, you just don't want to be that. And when you travel the world, you're like, holy, these, these poor people are living here, right? They're having a great time, they're doing things, they're, they're, they're happy, they're having a fulfilling life, right? They're, they're, they're living life. And a lot of people are rich on autopilot, saving, saving, saving, saving for another day, for another life that they're not gonna have.

• 53:29Graham Stephan?

  How often do you try new experiences to see if you enjoy them?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Often. I try and just like whatevs, you know? I'm very much in around to find out mode. That's kind of like my, my life. Like, one of the best experiences I had, or I discovered, is like riding a train. And like, there's these trains that go on tours. And I was like, I don't want to go on a fancy ass train. You gotta wear a suit or whatever to go in the dining car, or just, you know, somewhat formal. And I was like, okay, reluctantly went on this Orient Express for three days and turned out I loved it and discovered this whole world of riding trains across Canada. There's one my friends were on in Peru. I did one in Japan was like one of the best trips of our lives. And so I realized that it'd be a world if I knew it all and that I don't know it all. And one of the things I don't know is what I like.

• 54:16Jack Selby?

  Yeah. What would you say are the biggest wastes of money that you've personally spent on or things that you spent money on expecting fulfillment, but it ended up just being nothing?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Oh, cars. Like, like, I, I, I thought, like, when I first got rich, I was like, oh, yeah, I chopped up a Lamborghini. I had a McLaren and I kept like buying these cars thinking like, I'm gonna like the car. And I just felt like a douche driving around in the car. I didn't like it. They were low to ground. They couldn't handle potholes. I'm in Houston. And I was just like, I hate this. I really hate it. I don't like it. I feel awkward in it. Uh, and it's just not me, right? Now, now somebody else might get value out of it, but I was just like, I didn't know how to be rich for me. I knew how to be rich for what was advertised on TV. Right? I was an idiot on autopilot. It's a different kind of autopilot, right? Like, I was the super save everything, blah, blah, blah guy

• 55:09Speaker 01

  autopilot. And I was the idiot spending money on goofy autopilot that. And, and the only reason why it was goofy is because it wasn't me. I didn't sit down, get in touch with myself, understand like, what do I really enjoy? What do I really like? What is really fulfilled? What is a car really for?

• 55:24Jack Selby?

  So what car do you drive now?

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I usually Uber or something, but I have a Toyota Sequoia. The funny thing is I did buy a Ferrari Spider that I never drive, just because it's such a beautiful piece of machinery.

• 55:37Jack Selby?

  And you can't get enjoyment out of like, looking at it and stuff?

• 55:40Speaker 01

  I do. I, I just don't drive it as much. It's, it's like, you know what I mean? It's, it's like, it's just, to me, it's just weird. It is weird. I mean, like, if I was a race car guy or whatever, I would just drive it all the time. Like, this is what I do. I drive, I drive, I drive fast cars, but I don't even like driving. I hate driving.

• 55:56Jack Selby?

  What would you say are your biggest financial failures?

• 55:59Speaker 01

  I guess, uh, I tried to do this big, large infrastructure project in El Salvador in California and took like a

• 56:08Speaker 01

  X years permitting this thing, won a contract and then they voided the contract and the whole thing was rigged and I couldn't do it, right? I learned a lot on it, but vaporized a ton of money. And then movies, I did movies. You did movies? But the movies wasn't financially, that wasn't a disaster. The bond part, like back in movies, that was like the biggest. Could you explain the difference? I'm not familiar. So there's, there's financing of movies, right? And there's, there's all the structures, right? There's the equity, there's the debt and there's a senior debt, right? And I took on a significant position in a firm that did like the debt, right? Thinking it was safe, wiped out. But you produced movies? Yeah. You funded the production? I did it, I was on the set, I grinded it, I've edited. What movie?

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Written, written sides, I've done the whole thing. Like big movies, that one would be? I don't know, bad movies, but big movies and bad movies. I mean, I don't know, have you ever heard of a movie called unthinkable? I'm not a big movie guy. Baytown Outlaws, Cat Run, Dark Under the Stars, I don't know, eight, nine movies I've done. And where do you think you went wrong on those investments? Well, the, the movies weren't like wrong on the investment, like you know into a movie, knowing you're not going to make money in the movie, right? Like if you look at the, the movie business as a whole, right? Like back in the day when actually they released movies, it would be like 160 to 200 movies released per year and like the top 50 make all the box office and no independent movie is ever in there, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, right?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  If it's not picked up by a major studio, but there's 600 film, there's, there's at least 600 to a thousand films with a budget over a million that get a rating, which means they intended to be released, right? Or, or sold over a million dollars a year and you're not a studio. So all the movies that are independent, they are in this other field trying to like sell rights in like Europe, et cetera, and grind it out. And the only people making movies and, and money in the movies are the actors and, and the unions helping you, you know, key grip and those guys, right? No salary. Right. So it was funny because we would be on set and, uh, uh, some of the, they would be complaining like, you guys are making a lot. I was like, I will gladly give you my points if you will work for free.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  You guys, if you guys will do all this, I will gladly give you all my points. What did you expect the ROI to be? Negative 33%. So why would you, why would you put money in an investment that you expected to lose? Why do people do art? It's not an investment, right? Like if you're, you're. This is a passion project. This is why I tell my friends, like, if you're going into movie business, you either want to go to the parties and sleep with stars. You want to make a, make a piece of art that's never been done, you know, or be a, be a patron art or, or, or say something, right? Make a piece, right? Like those are, there's ways your returns coming from. Because if, I always tell them, if you're in it for the money.

• 58:59Speaker 00

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• 59:59Speaker 01

  You, you, you're not going to do that. Actually, I would say if you're in it for the money, back in the day, you used to be able to go to Sony and be like, I want to invest in your slate and give them money and they would put you in their slate and you make like an 8% return, right? They'd have a flop, a flop, a hit or whatever. Because if you don't have that distribution and that power, you're done for.

• 1:00:17Graham Stephan?

  Interesting.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Now, there, there are always exceptions to the rules. Like if you make a horror movie where people do not care about the actors and the cast, et cetera, you can make a low budget horror movie, grind it out, sell it and be profitable and keep doing that. Right. But if you're trying to be creative and I just want to make a movie about this story and this is a great idea, you're done for.

• 1:00:35Jack Selby?

  So here's another thing is how do you balance enjoyment, saving, spending in different areas of time in your life, like twenties, thirties, forties, fifties, sixties? For me, when I'm considering, okay, I'm 26 years old, I can go out on a Friday night. For example, two nights ago, I went out and got a really nice dinner with my friends. And then after that, we went to some bars like over in Las Vegas on the strip. And I stayed out until probably like 3am.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:59Jack Selby?

  And now I'm like, okay, how does that affect my lifespan? Right. Like the amount of money that I spent, like in your twenties, should you be doing these sorts of things that could shorten your lifespan?

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, I was on Peter Attia's podcast and we talked about this and the purpose of your health is to drive your fulfillment, not the other way around. And so it's not about being in maximized health. Like I don't want to be the healthiest that ever lived, like Brian, Brian.

• 1:01:23Graham Stephan?

  Brian Johnson.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Brian Johnson, right? Because why? I don't, I don't want to be in a lab, like a boy in a bubble, right? In, in the most shape, right? Not, not, not having a fulfillment. So that's an extreme example, right? Of me saying that your health is a tool for you to be fulfilled. Your wealth is a tool for you to be fulfilled. Your time is your tool for you to have a fulfilling life. And so for you, uh, that time with your friends that you can't get back, if that was fulfilling, yes, you know, you'll die a minute earlier. Who cares? It's not about living the longest life. It's about having the most fulfilling life. And if you accept that, right, that axiom, then yes, there's times you should do things that are unhealthy.

• 1:02:02Graham Stephan?

  What about for the audience watching, they're in their twenties. Let's just start there. What are the experience that you found to maximize your twenties?

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  I mean, every single story I tell, uh, aside from like personal fees that I need to overcome, involved other friends. Involve things, right? Like, we scrounged up the people and we went on a trip here and hilarity ensues and learnings and fun and sometimes fights and disasters and whatever. But like now, it's like, oh, my God, remember that time, right? So I would do so much more of that that I didn't do in my twenties, right? And, you know, you think your core friend group, who you're still gonna love throughout the rest of your life, you get to spend all this time with them. You don't. You don't.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  They pair off, they have kids, they have other priorities, they chase jobs, they have other dreams, et cetera. And so I would create more moments, activities and excuses to spend time with them. I actually say that most of the things I do or the activities we have, it's just an excuse to hang out with our friends and do comedy show, a trip, boat ride. Yeah, like wake surfing, whatever, but I don't do it alone. Yeah, I like movies, but I don't watch them alone. Yeah, I like clubs, but I don't do them alone. You know what I mean? And so I would look for more activities to do that.

• 1:03:25Graham Stephan?

  But what about in your thirties? I mean, it's been in your book that really hit is that there are there are times in your life to enjoy certain activities. And there's no sense wasting time, let's just say hypothetically, in your twenties going on a train when your twenties could be spent hiking up a mountain that you can't do in your sixties.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Right, right. I think there's a balance. I don't think it's zero of that, right? Like, but, you know, what you wanna, what you wanna do is, is like, if if you're forced into a decision, right? Point between a more athletic and physically demanding activity versus a more sedentary type activity. You wanna shift those more athletic activities to your twenties and thirties and and and early forties? And the more sedentary activities to later in life, right? If you're trying to get the high score, right? Because just think about it was a video game like, and and and we got fulfillment points for activities and we laid them out there, right? If you have your character, right, and his character has this decay curve, right? If you have your character trying to do all the physical activities later in life, like, you know what I mean?

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Then you're not gonna get to do them all, you're not gonna get the Score, right? Like you'd reverse them, right? And you'd be able to do all them all and you get the high score, right? And so life is like Tetris, you know, you kind of got to get the order, right? It's the same thing with activities in your life, right? Like if you delay hiking Kilimanjaro to your eighties and heli skiing and all and, you know, walking all these cities, right? Like until you're later in life, um, you're probably not going to get the high score, right? There's a kind of that meme that, uh, floats around about the couples asleep in the gondola. Have you ever seen that one?

• 1:04:59Jack Selby?

  No, I haven't.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Look it up on the internet. There's like this older couple asleep and it's like reasons why you should travel when you're young.

• 1:05:06Jack Selby?

  One thing that's a little bit harder of a conversation is if you're younger, let's say in your twenties, maybe early thirties, something like that, or even late teens, and you're working a job and maybe you can save, you know, five hundred, a thousand dollars, if you're lucky at the end of every month, like most people out there, like it's, it's hard to have a big financial cushion, maybe even it's just like a couple hundred bucks.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:29Jack Selby?

  How do you justify then spending that money on experiences and activities rather than putting that in something like a Roth IRA? Or cutting out on certain experiences and activities to then be able to at least have some sort of like minimum financial standard? How do you, how do you draw the line on?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Well, I, I think it, you know, in each individual, uh, person, they're going to have a certain, um, financial trajectory. Are they going to be making more money in the future or less? Are they going to be making the same? For those who are going to be make more money in the future, it's a no brainer. The experiences you can have higher, have a higher return on fulfillment than the eight percent, 10% return you're getting in a Roth IRA. And on top of that, you are taking from your poor self and giving it to your future rich self. So it's just completely backwards, right? For those who are going to have steady or declining income, then, you know, we are bumping up against survival and we need to save money for survival. So it's really a question of where are we on the survival curve?

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  And is our income going to be growing, um, outside of savings, right?

• 1:06:34Jack Selby?

  So you just have to consider your job. Is it scalable? Do you think that your income is going to be going?

• 1:06:39Graham Stephan?

  Up over time, you have to have an honest conversation with yourself.

• 1:06:41Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:06:42Graham Stephan?

  You think that you have the skills and wherewithal to be able to make more money when you're old.

• 1:06:46Speaker 01

  Correct. And you know, there, you know, I don't get into like the making money and earning money, but there's like, there's side hustles, there's all kinds of ways, like, one thing I realized, like, for those who are like, have, uh, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money.

• 1:07:01Graham Stephan?

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• 1:07:36Graham Stephan?

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• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  One thing I realized, like for those who are like have, you know, average intelligence and lots of hustle, there's so many ways to make money.

• 1:08:41Jack Selby?

  Do you think that applies to the average person? Cause I realize where we're sitting right now. And for those that aren't aware, this is Caleb Hammer's studio. And all the time he has people on this side of the desk that have blown thousands of dollars on trips or experiences. And they're going into credit card debt because they spent all of their money and then their car broke down.

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  We're not saying be foolish, right?

• 1:09:04Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Like, I mean, So where do you draw the line?

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  I mean, like you want to, you want to consider these things, right? Like there, there is a line, right? Like I've been on both sides, right? I've been on the super frugal and I've been like, I have no money. Like I have, I literally have no money and I have credit card debt. And I make an obscene amount of money, right? At for, for my age at the time.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  But what we want to do is thinking like, what are fulfilling things I can do within my budget? And what does my future income look like, right? And for each person, that's going to be different. Am I a, you know, am I eventually going to hit a home run type of guy? Or am I a guy that's like, I'm going to have a safe job and this is it. And this is my income and what I save is going to have to sustain me for the rest of my life. Right. And there are all kinds of different people with different type of risk appetites, with different types of opportunity sets.

• 1:09:50Jack Selby?

  It, it made me think back to something I haven't thought about in probably 15 years or so. I was 11 ish around this time. And I remember,

• 1:10:00Speaker 01

  So envious.

• 1:10:01Jack Selby?

  I went to, I went to, I went to Chase Bank.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:05Jack Selby?

  Or, or Washington Mutual, whatever it was back at the time, a long time ago. And I deposited, I think it was like 50 or so bucks.

• 1:10:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:12Jack Selby?

  Because it was like my birthday money or something.

• 1:10:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:14Jack Selby?

  And then I looked at the amount of money I had on my, my savings account. And my brother went with me, I mean, it was Christmas because we both went together. And my balance was like $400. I was lucky, like, like my parents, they'd, you know, I'd get some money and stuff for my birthday and Christmas. So I had like 400 bucks by like 11 or something like that. And then my brother had 700. And he's two and a half years older than me. And I was like, wow, like if I save my birthday and my Christmas money, in two and a half years, I'll have $700.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:40Jack Selby?

  You know? But I also remember like there were games that I wanted Pokemon had came out and like I wanted to buy Pokemon but it was like 50 bucks. And like all my friends had it and I became very frugal because I saw my brother was very frugal and he was able to save $300. And now I think like wow like $300 like like obviously that's a sizable chunk of change. You could still do some really cool things with that. But like the amount that it means to me now versus the amount that it meant to me when I was 11 or 12 is just like incomparable.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Right. You so you have a you have like, yeah.

• 1:11:10Jack Selby?

  And and and now I like I try to apply that between now and you know, wherever my future is at while obviously remaining, you know, like I would say conscious and like accurate, hopefully. But yeah, it's it's completely.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  I don't know what the right answer is for you, but if you are thinking about it and you're modeling it out, you are closer to an optimal life than just autopiling it, right? Like you were taught a very good skill and something to have in your toolkit, which is saving at a young age. But you remember at the expense of a fulfilling childhood, like buying a bike would be much better for you than that 400 bucks. Like because you can't remember 400 bucks, right? If you had a bike, you would remember all those times biking around with your friends and all the memories you have. And that's what you'd be talking about instead of this like I had 400 bucks saved in the bank useless story that you have right now, right? The skill is useful, but the the fulfillment and the memory dividends are completely missing at that age, right?

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  And so what you don't want to have happen is that happen now. And but at the same time, being mindful of like, I don't want to be busted, right?

• 1:12:13Jack Selby?

  The the trick is to be mindful, but it's hard because like you said, it's developing the skill of saving or like developing the anti-skill of just spending all of your money and getting stuck on this like hedonistic pursuit of life.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, the the skill is living. The skill we want is living. We want to thrive, right? And what thrive means to each individual person is different, right? So I don't give a about saving. I don't give a about spending. I care about fulfillment and thriving. Those are just tools for the big F, the big fulfillment, right? My health, my wealth, my time, all my decisions, right? It's all from my fulfillment. And then the hardest question, which I don't write about in the book is, well, what is fulfilling? I'm like, I don't know. That's up to you, right? Like, there's tons of books on like, how to live a fulfilling life. And you can believe one or whatever, according to your values, your religion, whatever, whatever, whatever belief system you have, like, you kind of have an idea what you're from with this.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  But like, you need to get off autopilot and think about that, what that means in each period of your life. But saving, spending, I don't give a fulfillment.

• 1:13:14Graham Stephan?

  What do you think is more dangerous, overspending or underspending?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  From my fear point, um, it's, it's underspending. Because the, the thing I'm worried about is wasting my life. Cause if, I think for, for particularly you guys, right? Like, you have no risk. If I take all your money away from you guys now, you're, you're gonna make it back. Right? You're gonna go get a job. You'll have a well-paying job. You're gonna have a great life. I can vaporize your money right now and you're still gonna have a successful life. You have zero risk. Zero. You guys are intelligent people with great skill sets, right? Uh, subject verb agreement. You know, you think through things. You are blessed with mental acuity. You have zero risk.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Zero.

• 1:14:03Graham Stephan?

  It's so funny. I see us have a lot of risk.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  I know. You live in fear.

• 1:14:07Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  You, you, there's monsters.

• 1:14:09Graham Stephan?

  Opposite of that.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  You're a monsters under the bed type of guy. You know what I mean? You're a monsters under bed. But like, I look at you guys and I'm like, these guys have.

• 1:14:15Graham Stephan?

  I was even telling Jack, I'm like, you know, Jack, we should prepare for like, the podcast maybe not doing as well because of, of what's happening in the markets. And I'm like, the last time these have happened, like, we ended up losing out on quite a few contracts.

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  It might happen. It might happen. You might lose it all. I'm just saying, you're gonna be fine.

• 1:14:29Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  I'll come to you in 10 years and I'll be like, did it matter? But like, no, we, we figured this out. I got a job here. I got whatever. Like, you're. You're easily to employ and you're also easy to start another business. Whichever path you choose, the safe route, working for somebody else, or the wild adventurous side of an entrepreneur. And I think entrepreneurs like, holy, I can die, I can die, I can die. The business can die, you won't.

• 1:14:52Jack Selby?

  In fairness, here's a, here's another thing is that some people just have differences in terms of where they get their enjoyment from, in terms of expense. Like Graham, the things that he likes in his life tend to be a little bit more on the pricey side. Like he wanted an aquarium and kudos to him for doing this, but he spent a lot of money on this aquarium. He wants experiences, for example, once again, not trying to say the group, but like, he took this group out, the index on this very lavish. Oh, he had 40 grand. He dropped, yeah, he dropped, he dropped 40 grand for two days on this, on this group that he has.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:24Jack Selby?

  And for him, like, that is like what he wants to be doing. For me, pickleball. And the cost is maybe $300 a year. And that like, like, so it's easier for me to have, you know, I, I don't see money and happiness in the same sort of thing. Whereas other people, they, they, their money is directly tied to their, like, some people are also more materialistic, like Graham genuinely does get happiness. Like the guy that has that nice cars in the group, like having nice cars and having nice watches and this and that. I would say to a certain degree, I like collecting things. That being said, like.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  So you have zero, zero, zero, zero risk. Like you should be taking maximum risk, right? Like, and he has like a little bit of risk, but like, what, what, you're young, you're still going to discover things that you like. You, you didn't know pickleball existed four years ago.

• 1:16:09Jack Selby?

  True.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Right? So now you're like, ah, it's pickleball, right? But four years from now, it's going to be the other thing, right?

• 1:16:15Jack Selby?

  It's always going to be.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Now he's like, no, it's pickleball. I love her, she is my best. It's always going to be pickleball. But you're going to discover other things that you like. Maybe pickleball will always be number one, right? But there'll be other things that drive your fulfillment, just like he will as well. Cause life is discovery. And the more you live it, the more you'll discover and the more you learn. It's a very sad, sad, sad world if you discovered it all.

• 1:16:37Jack Selby?

  So to be intentional about how you should be spending your resources, time, money, et cetera, mental energy. What do you think? You just read certain books? Do you meditate? Do you write down and just?

• 1:16:46Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Like, I think what we went over, like, what are the first steps is like, be aware of what you die. Break your life off into periods. I call them time bucketing, right? And then think about the experiences you want, but realize like you are going to discover what you like. Like, you didn't know your wife at one point, right? Or your girlfriend, or pickleball, or whatever, like, you discovered these things. And realize like, that is life, right? Life is going to be discovery. And you, and I think like,

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  you know, my belief is, is having a fulfilling life is continual discovery. And so you're going to be out there. You didn't know you wanted to do a podcast. You didn't know you wanted to have this guest. You didn't know you liked the book Die With Zero. Do you like it? I hope you like it. Anyway, like, you know, so like, just remember that, like, that is what's going to be driving it. Like, there's a, there's a, um, you ever hear the thing like, would you rather be the king of England in fifteen something or, or like, lower middle class or poor today? Right? And I think the answer is obvious, uh, you know, poor today, right? And people cite reasons, different reasons, right? But I think one of the main reasons is the speed of travel.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  The average poor person could live the entire life of the king in two months.

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Right? They could take a bus to Florida. And did you know what I mean? They could probably buy a super saver ticket on Southwest and go, you know, have an adventure and go around, which would take a lifetime for a king. Right? And on the way, he did this. And all he went to this concert and he did that. And then he saw a show and whatever. King can do that, right? Aside from that, he had straw for tall, the paper and would die of like, simple things or whatever. Forget all that. Just the speed of travel, which allows you to move through this world and experience more. Right? Allows you to condense more. Right? What period of time in your life has been the best so far?

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  Now, it's always now, but um, I think, you know, I was the good old days. Like, I think, um, courting my current wife and, and, and, and, um,

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  The engagement and and my daughters, you know, now one just turned 21, one just turned 18. It seems like it's the best time, right? But I've been grateful for every period. Like, sometimes I'll go back and be like, oh, those were the greatest times in high school. Hang out, had no money, etc. Like, like, being busted in New York City trying to make it was like an amazing time in my life. But it was a different, it was filled with activities that were meant for that period that don't really transfer, like running around and spending money and being broke and trying to make it in New York City and chasing girls don't fit in this time period of my life. But it was a great time. It was a great time being young and single in New York, right?

• 1:19:36Graham Stephan?

  And how do you balance this book with raising your daughters and making sure they don't grow up spoiled, but they appreciate the work and sacrifice that went into this, but also enjoying life?

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  It's the same thing. Like, my message, the physics that govern my body are the same physics that govern my my daughter's body, right? Like, they will grow, they will reach mental maturity, calculation power at 28, they will reach physical maturity at 33, they will plateau and decline. And so, you know, I want them to go out and what resources they have, their health, wealth, and time, right? And whatever resources I will give them, right? Which will be part of their wealth to use that to drive their fulfillment. You know, my goal is to give them the value system, and the answer is to help them navigate the world, and then to let them go out and make their own mistakes, right? Like, I've made millions and millions of mistakes. I will continue to do that. I'm a mistake making machine, but that's part of the ride.

• 1:20:29Graham Stephan?

  Do you think there's an amount of money that you could give them that might stifle some of their creativity?

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 1:20:35Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  It's funny, because I was talking to a friend, it kind of shifted my view a little bit. He's like, look, our kids, you know, they want an iPad, they get an iPad, you know, they, they, we didn't have iPad, like, you know, even if we were well off, like, we necessity was was part, and and struggle was part of the ingredients that made us, right? There wasn't like the only ingredient, but it was part of the ingredient, and they are missing, in many ways, not completely, that ingredient, right? That that gave us like whatever advantage, right? This some advantage. And so, you know, my friend is like, you have to pay for that. You have to cover that because you robbed them of the struggle.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Right? And you don't mean to rob them, but like if you made it like you don't want to like, it's like, oh, I don't want to live a busted life. What was the purpose of making it like I could have, I could have lived a simpler life and I could have made that choice. I could have said, you know what? Live on a farm. We're going to grow our own potatoes. We're going to live a simple life or whatever. And my kids will be like, okay, I have this grit and necessity. And if I want an iPad, I gotta go hustle. And then if I want these things, I gotta go hustle. And they would have that as part of their, you know, repertoire at a greater, greater index than what they have now. And they could go out and make it. And I've robbed them of that because I didn't want to go live on a farm. You know, I'm using extreme examples, right? But you get the idea. And so if I keep giving them money, I would completely, they would lose it all, right? You know what I mean? They would lose it completely, right?

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Like not have that necessity. And I think it's, it's, it's part of the ingredient of, of, of navigating the world. And how, how do you balance giving to your children versus giving to yourself? I pick an amount that I'm going to give them. I don't know what the, like in the book, I talk about when you should be giving the inheritance to the kids and not make it a bequest, which is absurd, but not the amount, right? It could be zero. It could be a zillion dollars. I think that's very personal. But for me, the thing is, is you need to come up with a number. So you're not just using that excuse of, oh, it's just going to go to my kids when I die and they're 60, which is absurd. It's just an absurd thing. They're not, they're not kids then, right?

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Like more than two thirds of their life has passed them by, right? And their ability to enjoy that money has declined, et cetera. You're giving them money at the, the, the wrong, wrong time. And it's completely not thought out. It's not deliberate. It's random. It's silly. What you should do is figure out what you want to give them and then spend all your money down till you die. And then they have their money. It's protected. You, you, you get sued. You know what I mean? It's, it doesn't take that money. You, you, you know, you do something stupid and you lose all your money. Their money is protected. It's separate. It's their money. It doesn't mean they get to go spend it when they're 19 or 20. It's in a trust and it turns over to them when it turns over to them. Right? And if you don't have all the money made, you just give, put money in yearly until it gets there. Right? If there's some uncertainty, but there's ways to do it.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  But the whole book is about living off autopilot and being deliberate and thinking these things through. Not just be like, oh, when I die, my money, I'll go to my kids. Right? That worked when, you know, a couple hundred years ago where you were a farmer, your kids were a farmer, they're going to be kids who are going to be a farmer, et cetera. Right? So like you died, they take over the farm and they do the same thing. And he takes a farmer, he's a blacksmith, my son's a blacksmith, they'll always be a blacksmith. We're the Smiths, right? Like, that's not how it works nowadays, right? You know?

• 1:23:59Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  You don't just turn over the family enterprise and that's what they do.

• 1:24:02Graham Stephan?

  Now, since you wrote the book, is there anything that has changed your perspective? Or that you would change about the book if you had the power to snap your fingers and edit it?

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  No, I've never been like, I've done, I think over 54 podcasts. I've done a couple of talks. I don't like to do talks in the beginning. Like they want you to go around and do all talks. Nothing where I've been stumped. I'm like, oh my gosh, I should change this, you know, as a principle. Like, I think it's like very axiomatic. It's not like new, it's full life cycle hypothesis, like laid out, right? Like, have you guys heard of that? It's essentially income smoothing about like basically, you know, taking from your richer self in the future and giving to you now so that you have a more fulfilling life, et cetera. Two guys, I think they won a prize for it. So you can look it up. But um.

• 1:24:47Graham Stephan?

  What is the life cycle hypothesis?

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  It's essentially, it's basically the income smoothing. Like when you're in your poorer self right now, you should be going to somewhere in debt. Okay. Because your income is going to grow and you're going to be able to extinguish it in order to get the experiences you want to have now.

• 1:25:05Graham Stephan?

  So it's exactly, it's essentially what you're.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's like, I didn't know about full life cycle hypothesis. I learned about it when I hired an economist when I wanted to make this program. And I was like, holy, it's like, you, to me, it was like a sign that like, I am thinking about this life problem correctly. Right? Like if, if people discover the laws of physics, right? They didn't, they didn't invent them, right? Like you just, you discover a truth, right? And so I discovered a truth. I think, you know, I have friends that are like, we want the 600 page version of this. We want like, I didn't want to write it like a cookbook, like do this, do that, do this, do that. Like it's modeled a lot on your money or life where there's like exercises at the end or like suggestions at the end. So there's a couple of suggestions at the end. But whenever I go give a talk, they're like.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  I want the cookbook. You know what I mean? I want more examples of how to do this, right? I want more examples to how to spend my money or how to save. I want more examples of annuities and things or how they work. I want more examples of granted annuity trusts or ways to transfer your money. Like a 600-page version would give people like kind of like what to do. But I didn't think most of the value is getting the concept, right? It's like just getting the concept, right? Once you get force equals mv squared, right? Then you do all kinds of wonderful things, right? Once you get e equals mc squared, you get satellites that get the timing right and all these other kinds of things. So it's like really about getting the formula right and the concepts right.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  And then people can apply them individually as they see fit.

• 1:26:37Graham Stephan?

  So where do you invest your own money?

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  I am not an example. Like I tell those people like I

• 1:26:43Graham Stephan?

  Like oil futures and

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  I'm not a role model. I think I can be an inspiration, right? I make way too many mistakes to be a role model. Like do not live my life. You are but I think I can be an inspiration. You know what I mean? I think I can be inspiring. And so, you know, I take maximum risk, right? Like a lot, most of my money is either tied up in my fund, right? Or the things I have that I have a lot of private placement too. Like I probably have way too much money in venture capital and private placement. Right? Like, cause now I'm like you say, like I'm a liquid. Like, what if I want to go here? I don't, I can't get the cash, right? And so that's generally where it is. And now I've actually put a needle scratch to all that because of my age.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  A lot of friends like, oh yeah, and you're going to make money in 10 years. I'm like 10 years. Trying to have a party now.

• 1:27:34Graham Stephan?

  So do you have this cash on the side that you're like, this is my money that I don't touch? That is there for a rainy day if I absolutely need it, just in case.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  I used to, I don't. Because I have houses and assets that I can liquidate in a fire sale. And even if it's half, it's like, I'm okay. Right? I'm quite okay.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  And quite planning to have a lot less money, not right now, but like if it happens, it happens. I'm not ego attached to it.

• 1:28:00Graham Stephan?

  It seems like this has been something that has been you for decades, though. I mean, just to be able to trade.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  Yes, like I've been trading.

• 1:28:08Graham Stephan?

  Like that and take on that risk. I think your risk tolerance is probably 10 times higher than mine.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's very, it's very high. And you know, one of the, one of the things people say like, what, what would you say to somebody in their twenties or thirties? Like, what, what advice do you give them? I, I say, in every area of your life, take the most risk you can possibly stand and then add a little bit more.

• 1:28:30Graham Stephan?

  So I guess here's my philosophy. I feel like you could take a ton of risk when it comes to your time and career. But then when it comes to your money and investments, you could play it safe there. And so that's like maybe a good balance where like,

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:28:41Graham Stephan?

  Go gung ho on like making as much money as you can, but then once you have it.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  I would say, take all that money and invest it in yourself. Go start the business that you have inside your head. That's the riskiest thing you could probably do, right? That's going to give you the most yield. I'd say the savings. But that's just me. Remember, that's just me. You can always go get a job. So you're not going to be broke. You will never be broke and he will never be broke because you can always go get a job. So I'm saying, what's the safety for?

• 1:29:08Graham Stephan?

  Do you have any advice for people who want to start their own business?

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  Make sure you're the type of guy that can be an entrepreneur and take the risk. I think a lot of people, it's romanticized a lot and not everybody is cut out to do that. Maybe you're the guy that needs to get paid first, right? Not the entrepreneur that's dipping into a savings to pay the employees and, and do the vision, et cetera, that hold it and like do your best. Like a lot of people think an idea is, is the thing and it's actually the execution. I'm sure you're very well, very well aware of that, right? Like podcast sounds like a great idea, but people don't realize like how much work goes into editing, getting the thumbnails, getting the guests, coordinating with the guests, running around, you know, dealing with sponsors, you know, not being too commercial. So people turn out like just so much that goes into making this podcast

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  entertaining and running it as a business than just like, I got a great idea. Right? And so make sure you're that type of person and that you can take that risk.

• 1:30:01Graham Stephan?

  How do you know if you're that type of person?

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean. You can develop it like, you know, are you the type of person that's okay going busto for a bit or having to go back to work? You know, I always like, people like yourself that are like, you can easily get a 50, 60, 70, 80, 100,000, $200,000 a year job. Like you have no risk. There's no real financial risk. You only have a ego risk, you know?

• 1:30:25Jack Selby?

  It seems like the common thread between everything you're saying is just being hyper intentional.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:30:30Jack Selby?

  About everything.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  You got the book. You got the book. The book is about being intentional, living an intentional life. And there's a lot of other books out there that come at it from a different angle, right? Like talk about different things about intentionality, being aware, being conscious, living a conscious life. But that is the whole book in a nutshell.

• 1:30:49Jack Selby?

  What have you learned from Dan Bilzerian?

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I've learned that I don't want to be too famous. That's one of the reasons why I don't like, somebody's like, you did Ted Talk. I was like, no way, will I do a Ted Talk? I, I wanted to do a Ted Talk originally, but like, I don't want to be famous. I don't want to be too famous, right? Like, hey, you want to be like Z level famous? You get a nod, a little dopamine hit. You're, you're legitimized, but like, you can be anonymous. Like you can walk around, like one in 300 people recognize you, right?

• 1:31:16Jack Selby?

  What's the risk with being too famous?

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  For the life I want to leave, it robs you of your life. I would completely lose, because you cannot enjoy life. Like, you cannot, when you are famous, like, it's constant people coming up to you, wanting a picture, wanting to talk to you, trying to force a conversation to connect with you. So they're not bad people, right? But like, they get to see somebody's famous and they want to take a picture. Like, when else are they going to bump into you? And they want to have a conversation about somehow you're connected or how they know you. And you're robbed constantly. Like you're in a bubble, you have security and you can't go anywhere and you can't do things. And like, I like to travel to Europe and walk around the shops and meet the people and not be known. And it's a great, great life of discovery.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  But like, if I was famous, it's gone in a heartbeat. And then I have too much money because I can't spend it on the things I like doing. And then you have to worry about people who are, you just were hurt animals, right? Like we get fame brain. So people act different around you and you can't have authentic connections with new people because the fame is always in the way, you know? And so it's ugh. It's really, really bad. The only thing fame gets you is uh sex with the opposite. So if you're a famous woman or a famous man, you can have all the sex you want with all types of people.

• 1:32:33Jack Selby?

  What else did you learn from Dan?

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  Kind of uh the, the idea of what is um, what is more powerful as a, as a sexual attractant? Whether it's fame or money, and we always knew it was fame, not money, right? You always know like the broke drummer in the band is gonna get way more laid than the rich guy, right? This guy's not even getting in the club because he's not cool, right? He's gotta buy his way in if, if he can. But we didn't realize like it was a hundred times more powerful, a thousand times more powerful. It is way, way, way, way, way more powerful than anything.

• 1:33:09Jack Selby?

  We had Greg Doucet on and not that he's like a love guru or anything, but he said he read a study that, what was it? Thirty thousand dollars in income, every increment up thirty thousand dollars is the equivalent of one extra inch on your height. And he says that height is like super important. That's what he said.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, I think for the average person, uh, non-famous, uh, height matters. Dan's short, right? But he's famous. It doesn't matter. I don't care how tall you are. You'd be six foot three, trust fund, whatever. The famous guy wins. Prince was short. He everybody, guys and girls.

• 1:33:49Jack Selby?

  I'd be curious to see.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Like, like, these guys are short, like the, most actors that you see that are like, you know, people are screaming at and girls are throwing their bras at, they're short. Doesn't work well. Tom Cruise is short, you know?

• 1:34:02Jack Selby?

  I'd be curious to see the correlation between one inch of height and 10,000 followers. And just see like where the optimal is because I'm sure being six foot two is equivalent to like.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, for the average person that's out there like.

• 1:34:14Jack Selby?

  Just overall, like, there's gotta be some sort.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Height, a comedian said this and I'm gonna steal it, but he's like, height is to guys what titties are to women. Height is just titties, you know what I mean? It's male, you know, it's like, you know, like, it's, it's like, oh, wow, he's got nice tits. Like, it's an attractant, right? Like, and so like, you know, I, I, I don't know, like those, those things matter. Um, but you know, the experiment that Dan ran was.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  What does fame do for you? Right? Like in the, in the pursuit of getting famous in order to, to, to get women in that hedonic treadmill, fame is extremely powerful. And it taught me that I don't want to be famous. Like I was, wanted to go that route. And then I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no.

• 1:34:55Graham Stephan?

  For the people who come up to you and recognize you, what are some of the most impactful stories that you've heard from people who have read your book and changed their life?

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, like originally it was like, oh, because I'm a trader. Like people knew me from natural gas and trading, like very small niche. And then it was poker because I played poker on TV and the movies, et cetera. And then recently it's all been like, you're real poker and you wrote the book Die With Zero. Um, I get a lot of stories about how people have completely needle scratched their life and woken up and now they're pursuing their life. And so it could be time of like, now I spend time with my family or I take my whole family on a trip or now we're doing this, you know, I'm, I haven't been living and now I'm living, but it's some version of they were on autopilot and now they're not. Right? And it's, it's amazing. It's, it's a great feeling. Like it's overwhelming though. It's a little bit because it's like, oh, I can't, you know what I mean? Like one of those guys that can't take it.

• 1:35:48Graham Stephan?

  Little old me?

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I just can't take it. It's like, it was, this was a side project, right? This was like a side thing. Like fuck it. It's like,

• 1:35:56Graham Stephan?

  It's a side quest.

• 1:35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was definitely a side. It was a side quest. Like I'm gonna write this book. I'm gonna save my life. Like the doctor's like, you need to write a book. I'm finally gonna write a book. I've been talking forever. It's time to back it up. You know, went through the grueling process, wrote the book. I really wanted to get out there, but now I'm like, holy, it's out there. You know what I mean? It's coming back.

• 1:36:13Graham Stephan?

  Have you ever had someone come up to you and say, hey, man, I spent too much money?

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Never. Never in my life. I mean, I get, I get, I mean, I get the, the beggars on Instagram. Like I went broke gambling or whatever, or something like that, but never is like, I read my book, your book, because it's not about spending all your money like an idiot. You know what I mean? It's about having the most fulfilling life. Like the title is catching, right? It's supposed to catch you in an airport. It's like, what the does he mean? Die with Zero? You know, read the book. Holy, it's not, it's not what it says it, right? Like, so the book is about, you know, if I wanted to have like a, kind of like, I don't know, what is the, the own network type title? You know what I mean? It would be like, Have the most fulfilling life, you know what I mean? Get the most fulfilling life or fulfillment. It's for you or something shit like that. Right?

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  And I'm like, no, let's stick with it. With the axiomatic principle is that you should uh, use all your resources up before you die.

• 1:37:09Graham Stephan?

  I'm in a lot of financial independence groups and your book is the only one that's consistently mentioned, probably on a daily basis.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the fire guys, like there was a Mr. Money mustache, right? Like he's one of the guys who read the book and like kind of shifted and you know, they they always like have this like allergic reaction at first of the book, right? Cause they're baptized in fire, like I was baptized in fire. And like, I just tell them like, what happens to the principle?

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• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Whatever, you know, they're always like, I'm gonna spend 3% of my, I'm like, what happens to the principle? So whatever you have of the principle, right? Like whether it's a million, 500,000, whatever. Take the hours of your life that it took to build up that principle. That's a waste. You have to spend down the principle. The principle has to go too. And they're always like, ah, you know what I mean? They freak out, right? Uh, because they've been there, they have this religious belief about this 3%, 4%, whatever rule they are, that keeps them safe and living that life. And I'm like, the goal is fulfillment, not to have a nest egg. The goal is not the money. The goal is fulfillment. And the only way to use all up, all your resources is to spend all the money, have great health and be, live in a conscious, be conscious about your life.

• 1:38:46Graham Stephan?

  In terms of being healthy, what have you found to be the, the best ROI activities? Like gym membership, is it food?

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  No, no, um, it's walking and hiking by far because it's free. Um, you actually enjoy it with friends. You can do it with a group like, let's go hike. People go in California, running canyon. Let's go hike all these trails around here. You experience nature. You're actually having an experience, like a fulfilling experience while also improving your health.

• 1:39:10Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  And you know, like all the doctors like sitting is death. You know, people like this gym or that gym. I'm just saying free activity. And you know, running and walking, if walking three miles and running miles, uh, three miles, almost the same thing. Right? It's the same amount of energy, right? Except for running is inefficient from going up and down. So it's like 10% more. Or whatever, how inefficiently you run 10 to 15. So walking, running, it's just a physics equation, right? And so you're creating a memory, having a fulfilling time and preparing yourself for future enjoyment by, by getting yourself in shape and your lung capacity. Right? Then, you know, calisthenics and all these other things like that. And so, um, I think those are, that is a very, very, very high ROI is hiking.

• 1:39:55Graham Stephan?

  What's your skincare routine?

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  I don't have, I mean, I just wash it and then I put some.

• 1:39:59Graham Stephan?

  Like very, very young.

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  Oh, that's, I mean, yeah. Well, I, I think, I've been told this. I think one, I have, I have good genetics. I think I'm, I'm just lucky. Uh, two, though, I don't smoke. I don't really drink that much. I'm a vegetarian. So I think these things matter. Right? And then so like, if you're out there smoking and you're up late at night and you're drinking and it's, and then you just hydrate your face and then you should be okay.

• 1:40:25Graham Stephan?

  Do you have like, wear sunscreen? Cause you, you have no wrinkles. It's like.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  I have some wrinkles here, here, you know, do this, whatever. But like, but like, just hydrate your face. Just like get some vitamin E oil and put it on in the morning and you'll be, you're fine.

• 1:40:36Graham Stephan?

  So yeah, like botox.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  10,000 IU.

• 1:40:38Graham Stephan?

  Like nothing.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  You can, you get the botox. You get the botox up here. Yeah. But I still got it right there. But like, if you, but you get the oil, man. Just get the oil. Don't smoke. Do you smoke?

• 1:40:47Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 1:40:48Speaker 01

  Do you drink a lot?

• 1:40:49Graham Stephan?

  Rarely.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Okay. Just do, and then just like, you know.

• 1:40:52Graham Stephan?

  You might have one drink a month. I mean, that's it.

• 1:40:54Speaker 01

  Eat right, exercise, you know, eating diet, there's, there's.

• 1:40:59Speaker 01

  You can't really like as you get older, like unless you're an Olympic athlete, you can't, you can't outdo your, your diet, right? It's like eighty, eighty-five percent of it. Like you just can't do it. Like if you're eating a bunch of chemicals, it's gonna get you. It's gonna pierce through your skin, it's gonna your liver, it's gonna, you know, it's gonna your metabolism. Like when you're young, yeah, you can, you can, but eventually it catches up.

• 1:41:22Jack Selby?

  Do you have any questions for us or any comments?

• 1:41:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, why did you start this podcast?

• 1:41:26Graham Stephan?

  Well, this was really the, the brainchild of Jack. Back in 2020, my theory is that he saw that Joe Rogan sold his podcast exclusivity to Spotify. And he came to me, he's like, dude, we gotta start a podcast. And this was May of 2020. And I said, sure, let's give it a shot. Is that, is that what happened, Jack?

• 1:41:45Jack Selby?

  No, that is not what happened.

• 1:41:46Graham Stephan?

  All right.

• 1:41:48Jack Selby?

  But it was, it was funny because we, it was like nearly exactly after he sold his podcast is when we first uploaded our video and like we were, you know, Graham was a finance channel. And so the top comment was like, Graham Stephan sees Joe Rogan sells podcast for a hundred million, starts a podcast. But in this case, um, no, it's because I watched a lot of podcasts or I listened to a lot of podcasts. Throughout the day, I'd go on a walk and, and just binge that type of stuff. And I figured that Graham could connect with his audience better if he had a more candid uh, conversation. Like, because the, the content he was putting out online was all heavily scripted and, and planned, but I thought he could cultivate a stronger connection with his audience if it was more just kind of impromptu. And we always had kind of funny, random banter.

• 1:42:33Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:42:33Jack Selby?

  And people were also aware of my existence, even though I wasn't publicly facing just because Graham would randomly bring me up. And I'm like, oh, well, maybe we could try this out.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  What, what's the number one activities or activity or activities you want to have in your twenties?

• 1:42:45Jack Selby?

  I want to travel a lot. That's, that's the only thing is I, I went on my first ever like real vacation, maybe a year and some change ago. And it like, I felt like I had finally experienced a sort of happiness and fulfillment that I just didn't even know existed. And this was like my first, I would say awakening because I, I'd never. Words can't describe how like how happy I was for like two weeks straight just traveling with my best friend like going all around and.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Your purchases acquire, I get it.

• 1:43:18Jack Selby?

  And and then since then, I'm just like, wow, I want to do that more, you know, and I think that every time I go on a little trip like it's gonna get, I'm not gonna enjoy as much as that first time, but like every single time I get out and and and have a purely personal vacation, it's it's incredible.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the saying, travel is the only thing you can spend money on that makes you richer.

• 1:43:37Jack Selby?

  That's awesome. Yeah.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  What about you?

• 1:43:40Graham Stephan?

  I would say Japan was definitely a really fun experience. I want to do that again, but I don't know. Part of part of me, because I was thinking through as you're saying that like I some of my best days are when I just lock myself in the office and just crank out a video. And it's one of those times where it's like you get in a flow state and just you lose track of time and you're so in it. And then at the end of the day, you have like a finished product that I'm really proud of. And then it's fun to put it out there and to see how it does and get like the immediate feedback. So some of my like favorite days are just like being able to have the opportunity to do that.

• 1:44:16Speaker 01

  So creating.

• 1:44:16Graham Stephan?

  Also, yeah, but then I also sometimes don't know if that's because I love the creation process and being in the zone, or if I'm conditioned to feel good about being productive and working.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a that's a good point. Because I think like a lot of people get habituated.

• 1:44:30Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  Uh, into, you know, let's say you're selling plastics and you're like, you get good at selling plastics. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I love selling plastics. And it's like, I just get inceptioned and habituated to be a rat in a wheel selling plastics and thinking I love selling plastics at the expense of the rest of the world.

• 1:44:47Jack Selby?

  I don't know. Yeah. I think people, people enjoy what they're good at. And that's kind of just like a natural human thing. If you're good at something, it usually ends up being so much fun to you.

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  But then what happens is is that you believe that that is the thing.

• 1:44:59Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, see, I don't know. It could become the thing. I always love having something to do. And there was a, this is about a year ago. I painted the entire garage and the garage is like 20 feet tall. It's like a big garage and I spent all weekend. I'm probably talking maybe like 18 hours, maybe 20 hours, painting this garage. I loved it, but I also don't know if I like just being busy and feeling like I'm doing stuff. You can do some great travel charity work. You would love that. You're like Dr. Sazabooters or, you know, doing some charity work where you're like busy and doing something and fulfilling. I think you might like it. But my other thing is that I like having the ability to stop at any point and just return to whatever I was doing. So it's like, so like. Freedom, freedom and creativity.

• 1:45:41Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, so if I had the ability to like, yeah, go across the country, but I could snap my fingers and be back in a heartbeat, I would do it. Like, so I like having that freedom of just, I wake up in the morning and I just say, I want to do this or I want to do this. And that's, and that's some of the hard thing with even traveling on the podcast. Sometimes I'm like, yes, I really want to travel on other days. I'm like, oh, I just don't feel like it. So it's hard to lock myself in six months from now because I don't know how I'm going to feel. Where do you think you got this fear from? What do you think's driving your fear? I think I just naturally always kind of been like this. I mean, I, cause I'm thinking like, I'm trying to go through my childhood.

• 1:46:19Graham Stephan?

  Uh, and we certainly didn't have money and I know money was definitely, it was scarce, but I didn't even realize that until probably I was like 15 years old. And my, my wanting to save money has been around since I was like five. Like I do remember my grandpa having like rare coins and me thinking that's so cool that there's like a 1920s penny. So I'm going to save these or like saving Christmases and birthday money. So I've always been like that. So. It's a great skill to have. I don't know. Part of me thinks that like, maybe I was a bit wired for the propensity of like saving money or delayed gratification. And that's just how my mind works.

• 1:46:57Graham Stephan?

  But I can't think of like, there's a trigger point of like, oh, this happened and I, and I like shifted my, I think, cause I've tried to think through this.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  So when have you, and you don't have to list them all, but if you have something, when you say delayed gratification, I'm just like, okay, what are you delaying? What's the gratification?

• 1:47:12Graham Stephan?

  I would say like.

• 1:47:13Speaker 01

  Know what the prize is.

• 1:47:13Graham Stephan?

  Like immediately what, what I really want right now, the, the only thing I want is a really nice house with a big yard and a view of the Las Vegas Strip. With a koi pond somewhere in front.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  He's got it down, very specific. He was, he's got it down.

• 1:47:30Graham Stephan?

  I check Zillow every day because I'm thinking like, listen, if the perfect house comes up, like I'll jump on it like, but it's gotta be perfect. But then I'm thinking, okay, that house is probably going to be about four to seven million bucks. Let's just say for like that sort of house with like greenery and it's really inspiring. I'm thinking, do I need that now? No, it's like, it's better for me to like, still play it smart to, you know, optimize what I'm doing with work to invest the money. And like that house isn't gonna go anywhere over the next 10 years.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  I mean, as long as you're thinking about it, like you're wearing it out.

• 1:48:05Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  What's going to be the most fulfilling, right?

• 1:48:06Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. So I'm thinking like, that's a delayed gratification thing where it's like, it would be irresponsible for me to jump on that now. When I feel like I could still enjoy that just as much when I'm like 45. Travel is another one where it's like, I, I would love to fly first class. If, if money were just like nothing and I could snap my fingers, it's everything is free. Like, yeah, I would love to do that, but at the same time, like business or, or premium economy, that's what it is. The premium economy is like 80% of the experience for like 10% of the cost. And so I, I, I look at that and I'm thinking that's a better deal.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:43Graham Stephan?

  So I do the premium economy.

• 1:48:45Jack Selby?

  Just curious, Grant, when, when you have those days where you lock in, and I, I know you enjoy these and I don't doubt that for a second, but do you have like memory dividends from those days?

• 1:48:55Graham Stephan?

  Certain days, yeah. The, so here's a good example of this. When the Japanese yen was absolutely collapsing, it was like 11 PM at night, East Coast. And I was telling Jack, dude, I gotta get out a video on this. I gotta get it out. And Jack's like, it really doesn't make any difference either way. If like you post the video, great. If you don't post a video, like it's not gonna make a material change in your life. And I was like, you know what? That's true. But man, I had a great time filming that video. And, and even the memory card, I filmed the whole video and the memory card corrupted. And I had to refilm this thing and edit at like 1 o'clock in the morning.

• 1:49:33Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:49:34Graham Stephan?

  I look back at that and I was, and it was a fantastic.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  I remember that time here because I was sending notes in our Tokyo travel group. And we're like, we should go back to Japan now. It's on sale. We could have the same experience for like 20% off, you know?

• 1:49:47Graham Stephan?

  But yeah, but certain, certain times like that, I'm so glad I did that because I remember that. I had a great time. I was set, I, I spent like an hour setting up in an Airbnb, like a little studio set with just whatever I could find in the kitchen. That was a great time. I even did this last night and my memory card corrupted again.

• 1:50:05Speaker 01

  You got, I don't know.

• 1:50:05Graham Stephan?

  It's terrible.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  You might have to invest in a new system.

• 1:50:09Graham Stephan?

  The first time was a fluke, the second time I just was, I, wrong setting on the camera.

• 1:50:13Speaker 01

  Did you guys go to Team Labs, Borderless in Tokyo?

• 1:50:15Jack Selby?

  Love Team Labs.

• 1:50:16Speaker 01

  Amazing, isn't it?

• 1:50:17Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Did you do Team Labs?

• 1:50:18Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 1:50:19Jack Selby?

  That's the interactive.

• 1:50:20Graham Stephan?

  I know exactly what you're saying.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  But which one did you do? Did you go to Borderless?

• 1:50:23Jack Selby?

  Um, no, I, I just went to the one.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  They have Planets and Borderless.

• 1:50:27Jack Selby?

  Planets.

• 1:50:27Speaker 01

  You've gotta go to Borderless.

• 1:50:28Jack Selby?

  Okay.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Borderless is the real deal.

• 1:50:30Jack Selby?

  Okay, I'll do that.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  I mean, Planets is great. I mean, Borderless is next, next, next.

• 1:50:33Jack Selby?

  I will, I will a hundred percent do that, yeah.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Cause it was closed for a while, they were redoing it.

• 1:50:37Jack Selby?

  Yeah, I'm gonna go, uh, later this year.

• 1:50:39Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, Team Labs, Borderless is just absurd. It's absurd.

• 1:50:43Graham Stephan?

  Where's your favorite place to travel?

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  Uh, wow. It depends on what type of vacation you have. Like Japan is my favorite. I did the countryside, I did Kyoto, Fukushima, Tokyo. Visited with the geishas in Kyoto. Yeah. It was amazing. But that's a different type of trip. The reason why I love Japan so much is it's like, um, a modern culture, first world culture that is completely different than any place else. Right. I think you would have had that experience before they became a monoculture in the world. Like when you go to Europe, you go on some place, you're gonna hear hip hop, right? Like it it's very, they're losing the the the distinct, you know, the French being

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  the French. I mean, there's French things, right? French culture, Germans being Germans. I think in the 40s and 50s, it was very distinct and very unique and not Americanized so much. But Japan is wildly different, wildly different, right? And modern. So it's kind of odd, right? The way they think, the whole, whole existence of it. And it's really amazing to discover. But the Met is amazing, like Italy, the Amalfi Coast, that whole area is an amazing playground. Amazing to go Discovery, go to Pompeii, learn all kinds of different terrain, Greece, that whole area, then into the other side. Croatia is amazing. I mean, that whole European area. Then also, I love Denmark and Amsterdam in the summer, only in the summer.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  You know, Europe's great. There's a lot of, lot of travel around there.

• 1:52:15Graham Stephan?

  Is there anywhere you wouldn't go?

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  I think I wouldn't go places where the death rate or was extremely high. Like I would even go to places where it's like, this is gonna be a struggle. Like I'm not gonna like it at first, like resistant, but just to do it, you know what I mean? And feel it. You know, the last time I went on safari, there were so many bugs in my room. It was crazy. And I'm not a bug guy. And then by the third day, I was like, okay, I'm I'm used to these bugs. Like it was in, and it was like in a nice place, but our, our roof, the thatch roof got infested with termites and then the bugs could get in. And it was just like the net and the bugs and cups and the shower bugs everywhere. But uh, safari is amazing. I highly recommend safari. Before you die, do safari.

• 1:53:01Graham Stephan?

  And your least favorite place to travel? Like if you, if you're, if you were to name or call out a destination and say, this was not worth it, or I didn't like it and I would not go back again?

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  I think anything that's designed for tourists, like I didn't like going on a cruise. I mean, I see the value play in it, et cetera, but it was, it wasn't me. I could do that when I'm 80, you know what I mean? Or 75, right? Like, it's like basically taking like a little bit of America, sticking on a boat and doing. This thing on a boat with a bunch of people. Sure. Doesn't have to be on a boat. Consuming, you know what I mean? And then you're like, you're on their schedule. So you have to get on and off the boat on their schedule. And you, first you're like, this is great. Like, look at all this food. And then like 10 pounds later, when you get off the boat, you're like, what the did I just do to myself? You know what I mean? Yeah. And it's very canned. You know what I mean? Sure.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  Now, I could see myself like later in life, really enjoying like the peace of a cruise and the food's over there. It's always there. There's always food out and snacks out and everything being your spot. And America is just cramped on this thing and you're just enjoying the view. But at this age, I hated it.

• 1:54:17Speaker 01

  I hated it. Now, maybe, maybe it was the type of cruise I was on, but I wouldn't do it. So anything like that. What do you think of what the FIRE community has become? I mean, I think FIRE is a great skill set, especially like, there's no FIRE in Japan. Like, this, this is them. They save, they give to their community. They don't, you know what I mean? Like, they have a simple life. They understand the concept of enough, et cetera. And I think when Your Money or Your Life, when that came out, which launched the FIRE community, that's kind of like their bible, right? You know, I think they went into the extreme. It's become this like, how can I refreeze popcorn to get the popcorn out, right? And it's a lot of people, it's become savings porn, right?

• 1:55:02Speaker 01

  Which, you know, Your Money or Life was about getting in touch with your values and having a fulfilling life. That's what the book is about, right? And it suggests ways at which you can do that. Like, like even taking less salary by not commuting as much and looking at your hourly wage, right? And I think the FIRE community has kind of lost that, right? They've, they've gone on to this like, a version of, not completely, but a version of is like, I'm gonna do 15 years in Sing Sing. And then when I get out, I'm gonna live the life, you know, and I won't have to work anymore, et cetera. And I'm like, listen, while you're in jail, life is passing you by, you know?

• 1:55:41Speaker 01

  You're not meant to be in any kind of jail, whether it's your own jail of your mind that you're creating by not enjoying a life now, or actually going into Sing Sing for some like prize, some Mr. Beast prize. I got $50 million for somebody who would do 15 years in jail, you know, that type of thing. And so. That's my criticism of the FIRE movement. On the flip side, though, here in America, there is an epidemic of careless and wasteful spending and people living above their needs and not thinking consciously about earning and saving. And so that's the good part about the FIRE movement. But I think it teaches people to be like, not live their life.

• 1:56:19Graham Stephan?

  So what if a person says, hey, I went 30 grand into debt so I could go and travel the world, but now my credit cards are all maxed out. I'm making 20 bucks an hour. It's going to take me a decade to pay this thing off, but I had an epic time.

• 1:56:35Speaker 01

  Might be worth it. I don't know. It's really about like, I would go into debt if that was the experience that I could have. And it depends. Like, the FIRE people are doing it in reverse.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  Right? They're like, I'm going to grind out for 20 years and then I'm going to have this great trip. And this guy's like, I went into debt and I'm going to have to grind this way, right? Isn't this the same thing, right?

• 1:56:56Graham Stephan?

  I guess so.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  It's a version of autopilot, right? Like, they didn't think it through. It's like, maybe there was a better way to do this, or maybe that was a proper way to do it. You know? Right? They're just doing it in reverse, right? They're just grinding it out, grinding it out, grinding it out. And then when I'm 45, I'm going to have this great, wonderful life, right? Like, and this guy's like, no, fuck it, I'll go into debt and I'll grind it out later, right? Struggling flipping burgers or whatever, right? But I think there's an in-between conscious way to think about this. It's like, where experiences belong? Where? What are my resources? What are my future resources going to be like? And how do I allocate my resources through this period? Right? That's the real way to do it. Right? Not like, give up 10 years of your life so that you die with 10 years of your life to

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  go to taxes and whoever randomly is going to get it. You know? So I think, you know, FIRE is great and America needs more FIRE than it needs the latter, but we need to be a little bit more conscious and intentional about these things. And I think FIRE is great that it helps people get in touch with their values, right? When you start shedding the marketing and the, right? I think they get more in touch with their values and what matters to them. They lose their ego, which is a great thing, et cetera. But they kind of get into this robotic thing, right? This kind of like addiction. I'm saying, look how much I have. 3%? Look, I did this. But on the flip side, as much as I mock that, right? These guys are finding out all the hacks, right? Like, I often say that

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  You know, I can be on a super yacht in the a multi-coast or whatever, and somebody somewhere is on a boat, on a ferry, having the same experience, soaking it all in and enjoying it, right? They're getting the same fulfillment and they're with their buddies and they're having a great time, right? So I think at all income levels, you can have that adventurous and fulfilling life, right? And you can top rated and glaze it over if you want, as you make more money, right? And so I think what the fire guys do is they figure out like, you bought a house for this, well, I found this deal and you got a mortgage for that and I found this deal and like, you're buying shirts from here, like shirts online for this, right? And so like, Reverse image search and find it.

• 1:59:06Speaker 01

  Right, so what they're doing is, is they're, they're, they're reducing amount of life you have to give up for this level of fulfillment. And that's a subcategory of like the wealth, right?

• 1:59:17Graham Stephan?

  And so that's me to a T.

• 1:59:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:59:19Graham Stephan?

  Like trying to figure out what is the best value for every single thing I could spend.

• 1:59:24Speaker 01

  I could use you, I could use you, I could be like, you know, this million dollars is going to go a lot further in fulfillment, right? Like they, they, they're in the, I'm at the top level, right? Like I'm like your wealth, health and time and these guys are at us optimizing one of the columns, right? They're optimizing the wealth bucket so that for every dollar you spend, you get that much more fulfillment. Yeah. So what I would tell these guys, like, let's not do without, but let's just find the, the most efficient way to do it. Like, let's still get all these things, right? Let's still go to the club, but let's find the cheaper, more fun club with the better specials, right? I mean, the bottles here, the bottles here are six thousand, the bottles here are two thousand.

• 1:59:57Graham Stephan?

  I posted a whole video on this like seven years ago. I went through all of my expenses and talked about ways to optimize them. And one of mine was like, I had a buddy who got a Thanksgiving bonus of like 200 bucks. This is when I was like 21 years old, spent it all at the bar, the entire thing that night. I was like, it's ridiculous because you could have the same experience had he just gotten a bottle from the grocery store for 20 bucks, the whole thing, split it with his friends.

• 2:00:24Speaker 01

  Oh, this is something I learned from Dan.

• 2:00:25Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, just do that.

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  So you.

• 2:00:27Graham Stephan?

  And then you go to the bar and like, that's what I would do. I would never spend money at the bar. I would always just. Get a bottle from the grocery store. Sometimes you can have the bars.

• 2:00:34Jack Selby?

  Drink it in the parking lot.

• 2:00:35Graham Stephan?

  Sometimes you have a bar experience. Drinking in the parking lot, but then go into the bar and then I just order waters the entire night.

• 2:00:41Speaker 01

  Well, this is one of the things you said, what did I learn from Dan? And Dan would be like, look, why would you spend all this money in a club? We can spend like that much money, control the environment, have a party at our place, rent a place, have a party. You control the environment, you control the guest list. You are the man, so you have all the girls there, et cetera, right? You're the one throwing the party, et cetera, as opposed to like one dude at a many, right? And like, those are the things that we do is like, why would you spend thousands and thousands of dollars, keep going to a club with, take that, throw one party and you are the man.

• 2:01:13Graham Stephan?

  The other thing that reminded me of, uh, going out to restaurants. Throughout my early twenties, I would never want to spend money at restaurants, but I still wanted the experience of going out with friends to restaurants. So what I would do is I would eat at home beforehand, but then go to the restaurant and order the least expensive thing on the entire menu, which is usually like a ten dollar, a ten dollar salad. And then what I would do is I'd bring cash. Because what would happen is that everyone would be like, oh my God, how do we split the bill? Uh, we have to throw on a credit card. And I want to throw on a credit card when they're all, their bills are like a hundred bucks. Mine should be ten. So I'll bring like 20 bucks cash and I throw my 20. I'm like, all right, I'm set. I don't have to worry about splitting this check.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  They hated him.

• 2:01:52Graham Stephan?

  Both the restaurant and his friends, but yeah, I get it. There was one time even, uh, this is gonna sound awful. There was one time, um, I went to the restaurant. I asked them if I could bring in a Subway. And I brought in a Subway because there was a Subway, like a few little. They let you bring in the Subway? They let me bring in a Subway. Jesus. No, listen, I was in a group of like 12 people. So I just asked for a plate. They brought me a plate. It was super nice. I mean, I left a tip, but I brought in a Subway and my meal was $6. It was everyone else's like 40 bucks. It's the same experience. I don't know if it's the same experience because you're not eating the same food. I love Subway. The chicken and bacon ranch is delicious.

• 2:02:30Jack Selby?

  And the thing is, he also plays the waiting game and he's like a scavenger where if they don't finish the food, he'll also get a little taste at the end.

• 2:02:36Graham Stephan?

  I have a thing for food waste. I hate wasting food. And so sometimes I'll see someone order like a big steak or something like this. They eat half. And then they send it back to be thrown away. And I'm like, that's $50 worth of food that they're throwing away in the trash that I would be. Happy to eat.

• 2:02:56Speaker 01

  For granted, it's always about increasing value. So like, as long as he's better off, he's just better, better, better, better. Steak right here, you took a, you took a bite out of this carrot. Okay, like, you know, if I could avoid your teeth marks on the carrot.

• 2:03:09Graham Stephan?

  So I see that as me getting paid for doing nothing. So let's just say in that situation, we're all out to eat at a dinner, we're all paying for our own meals. And you have half a steak that you're gonna throw away. And your half of steak is worth forty dollars. Me having your half a steak that would be thrown away is the equivalent to me making forty dollars. That's how I see it.

• 2:03:28Speaker 01

  I mean, you're not wrong, but you know, there is some entrepreneur out there who built this restaurant, whose hopes and dreams, that he doesn't want them to be inefficient. He wants them to eat the whole thing, but they didn't, that you're crushing. Cause you're taking up the chair, that could be another patron who's a paying patron. And you're robbing him of his services. Indirectly. So I mean, you're, what you're saying is correct. You are getting paid, this is full optimization gaming, but you're over the entrepreneur.

• 2:03:58Graham Stephan?

  But the food's gonna be thrown away. So it's, their work is wasted, isn't their work better off?

• 2:04:04Speaker 01

  Let's put it down at the bottom of this video, please don't waste food, order appropriately. You know, don't waste food, order appropriately. We can put that at the bottom and then you can go in and you can order your own food and support the business.

• 2:04:15Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but to Jack's point though, there are some people that I would consistently go out with. And they would always have like half of their food thrown away. So I got in the habit of, there's no sense in me ordering.

• 2:04:26Speaker 01

  You sound like my mom, my mom was like, boy, she remembers the depression.

• 2:04:29Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but I wouldn't, I personally wouldn't order because I knew there's four people that I'm meeting with.

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  This is amazing.

• 2:04:35Graham Stephan?

  That's two equivalent, two full meals because they throw it away.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  This is gonna be on the cutting room floor, isn't it? This is not gonna make the episode. Licking his chops beside them, they're like, oh, you know what, actually you can have this.

• 2:04:46Graham Stephan?

  It started to be a running joke, but like, but they would come over and throw away the food like, and I say, oh wait, actually could we get all this to go? And I would eat for like days.

• 2:04:56Speaker 01

  And panhandle for scraps. Why, why even, why pretend? Just stand outside and panhandle for scraps. People definitely be like, just stand out and be like, hey, whatever you don't eat, cause you pack it up and go. And they will do that.

• 2:05:08Graham Stephan?

  I wish, I honestly, I wish there were a service.

• 2:05:12Graham Stephan?

  That would just go around restaurants and be like, whatever you're about to throw away, just put in this side of the restaurant.

• 2:05:18Speaker 01

  They have that. They do have that for the homeless. Like, they do give that out. There are those services. They're generally for the homeless, not you. But, you know, you could start a new trend.

• 2:05:26Graham Stephan?

  I heard that they're not allowed to give that food to homeless because if they get sick from it, now it's the responsibility.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  Not the half eaten ones, no, but the ones that are not sold.

• 2:05:34Jack Selby?

  So Graham will take the stuff that the homeless people reject.

• 2:05:38Speaker 01

  Well, they won't allow. They won't allow.

• 2:05:39Graham Stephan?

  Legally take.

• 2:05:41Jack Selby?

  The homeless people can't even ingest this.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Yes, but like if you stand outside the restaurant and be like, hey, whatever you don't eat, could you put it in the go- I'm sure everybody will.

• 2:05:48Graham Stephan?

  Listen, if it were not for people like Jack and my wife just getting really embarrassed by that and for like social norms, like stay like, I would be doing a lot of this stuff.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  I feel you. Like the hive mind is like, no, this isn't right. And you're like, no, this is right.

• 2:06:01Graham Stephan?

  Well, I mostly, I hold back out of fear of embarrassing the people around me.

• 2:06:05Jack Selby?

  And I appreciate that. Sometimes like, like even last night, like which is fine, but like we were checking into our hotel. And, and like, you know, the guy was like, oh, do you live here in Texas? And Graham's like, no, why? And he's like, oh, because. I said, no, why? You know, I'm not gonna lie. And then he said, oh, because there's a locals discount. And Graham's like, oh, well, in that case, we live here in Texas. And then the guy is, the guy was like.

• 2:06:30Graham Stephan?

  In a very joking way.

• 2:06:32Jack Selby?

  The guy was like, oh, ha, ha, ha. And Graham's like, no, seriously. Like, you know, do you guys have a discount or anything? He's like, yeah, it's a little bit of a discount. And Graham's like, well, whoa, like, the guy's kind of trying to like swat him away like a fly. Like, oh, you know, like.

• 2:06:43Graham Stephan?

  He was laughing.

• 2:06:44Jack Selby?

  He was laughing, like, granted, I'm making it sound worse than it is. He was kind of laughing and playing along a little bit. But still, like, if I get one rejection for, like, Graham, like, probably asked, finally, when it was like third or fourth time of like, what will we have to do, you know, to try to get a little bit of this?

• 2:06:57Speaker 01

  With this restaurant thing, he's gonna save more money than he ever made. Because he's gonna fucking be getting free food. He's like, well, I view that as 40 bucks. I'm like, he keeps doing things like this.

• 2:07:06Jack Selby?

  And they, they, they ended up giving us, you know, some sort of a discount at least.

• 2:07:09Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, they did.

• 2:07:10Jack Selby?

  It is, it is nice.

• 2:07:11Speaker 01

  It was successful.

• 2:07:11Graham Stephan?

  But he was, yeah, oh, yeah, successful. But he was laughing a lot. It wasn't that. Jack said, no, we didn't. And I'm like, do we get a discount if we do? And the guy said, yeah. And I'm like, well, in that case, yeah, I guess we live in Texas. And he laughed at it. And then I jokingly said something like, you know, are you able to apply something if we're like visiting friends in Texas? He's like, you know what? Yeah, I could do that. Like something like that.

• 2:07:32Jack Selby?

  To me, it's just like, I don't know, maybe it's a ego thing too, but I'm like, I just don't like defying social norms.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's negotiate like hotels and mattresses, you can always negotiate on always. So he's found something, right? Like that ones and your ego is like, I don't want to look like an idiot. He should lose that part, but like the, the food one, meh.

• 2:07:52Jack Selby?

  Yeah, pick and choose battles.

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  I mean, we're, we're, we're going further and further along the spectrum.

• 2:07:57Graham Stephan?

  See, almost anywhere I go, if, if I'm alone, I ask for the employee discount. But I want to say like, discount tire. Oh my gosh, I saved like 300 bucks recently. Just because there's joking with the guy and I'm like, you know,

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  I need this guy in my life.

• 2:08:13Graham Stephan?

  But I want to see.

• 2:08:13Speaker 01

  You are a subroutine that needs to be running and everybody needs that subroutine to certain, certain degree.

• 2:08:18Graham Stephan?

  But yeah, but, but I'm never a Karen about it, but it's always like, like a really joking friendly sort of like, hey man, could we, could we hook this up or like, but usually they're all like, all right, yeah, okay. And then they type in like a few things and then.

• 2:08:31Jack Selby?

  They're never, they're never like, of course, man, I'd love to give you the same thing I've given everyone else, but for a little bit cheaper. Like they're never like enthusiastic to do it.

• 2:08:39Graham Stephan?

  Enterprise Jack, that you benefited from that.

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  So this got me to a question, like a question for both of you that I think is, is like, it seems like you spend a lot of time and a lot of mental energy on the saving side. How much mental energy do you spend on the revenue side?

• 2:08:53Graham Stephan?

  Just as much.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Cause I went the opposite way. When I read your money or your life, it was like all these frugal exercises, saving money. I went that way. But what it really wanted me to do is like, oh, there's another way to solve for this problem. Having so much money that you don't give a such that it's not worth my time to even ask for the discount. Like the two minutes speaking for the discount? Wow, I've lost so much money.

• 2:09:17Graham Stephan?

  Yes and no. I see my time as having different values throughout different times of the day. Like right now, my time is really, really, really valuable. But at 10:00 PM at night, my time is worthless for the most part. So if my time is worthless, I may as well utilize that time effectively. Same thing with on an airplane, my time is worth zero. So I try to do an activity where at least it's not worth zero. So if I'm out at AutoZone and getting my tires replaced, it's gonna be, I'm there regardless. So like spending that extra two minutes is gonna be the same thing. So I may as well optimize it.

• 2:09:52Speaker 01

  I can see some of the the variable value in a person's time. I don't do that as much, but I, to that extent, but I do realize like my free time is way, way, way more valuable than my work time. Cause that's the reward. You don't wanna fuck up the reward. So it's like time with my daughters, if something comes up, I'm just like, everything's out, right? Unless I absolutely have to, higher obligation, I made a commitment. But if it's like, oh, these things that are gonna go away and I'm gonna get to spend less time with. If they like, oh yes, I will spend time with you, everything stops. So I, there is some variable in the value of time, but not that much.

• 2:10:29Graham Stephan?

  It might be different with kids. Would you say that's the case?

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's always, I mean, it's just, it's really your priority stack, right? Like you'll have this priority stack, you know, whatever's going on, your kid, your family, your friends, your hobbies, your interests, your work, whatever. And you'll arrange this priority stack and they have the way to interrupt your subroutines, right? Like this one, the highest one can interrupt this one, this one can interrupt this one, this one, and it shouldn't go this way. You know, that much, you know, very, very, very hard to go this way, very easy to interrupt going that way, right? And so that's kind of the way I look at it, the mental model I have in my head. Um, but even with, even with, uh, you know, you can get to a wealth level or earnings level where none of it matters. You like you won't waste the time.

• 2:11:16Speaker 01

  Like, you know, people write these things like if Bill Gates dropped a hundred bucks, it wouldn't be worth the time that he spent to pick up the hundred bucks type of thing. I mean, that's kind of like this big, extreme example. But you can get to where it's like, it's not worth negotiating. It's not worth even talking about. It's not worth wasting the neurons even thinking about it. That's kind of what I wanted, right? That was, I don't, I haven't gotten there, but that's the, the goal, right? Like, I don't worry about it. I don't ask the price. Not worried about the price. It's not going to affect my life. I have a problem. You know, in the beginning, when we were talking about like, this guy has a need to spend money and the only way he can immediately search out is $10,000 model at the club. Right? Like I have a need to convert it into experiences and I can't really focus on the savings part.

• 2:11:56Graham Stephan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:57Speaker 01

  Right? That's where I wanted to be. And so I wonder, you say you spend a lot on the revenue side.

• 2:12:03Graham Stephan?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:12:03Speaker 01

  But do you spend, what would you say is more revenue or, or savings?

• 2:12:07Graham Stephan?

  I would say the, what would you say, probably 50 50?

• 2:12:10Jack Selby?

  Yeah, savings.

• 2:12:12Graham Stephan?

  I save more time on savings?

• 2:12:13Jack Selby?

  Yeah, I would say a substantial amount more on savings. Like, like, I mean, all

• 2:12:18Graham Stephan?

  Day to day?

• 2:12:19Jack Selby?

  I'll come to Graham for like a certain deal or this or that. And he's like, yeah, whatever you think, whatever you think. And which is fine because I, I like to have control over stuff like that. But at the same point, like Graham will spend. I mean, how much time have you spent, you know, on bring a trailer, cars and bids, looking at the price of a certain vehicle and you're like, oh, it's just not an, you know, it's just not that great of a deal. Like, like, oh, it's just not that great of a deal. Like on Zillow, like all of these things scouring to just try to save a little bit more money on something you could potentially buy.

• 2:12:49Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, which is my guilty pleasure, cars and bids or bring a trailer. And I look at certain cars that I've wanted and I'm like, if it sells at that price, I can't say no to it. I love a deal. So it's like everything at a certain price. I'm like, I'm a buyer of that.

• 2:13:03Jack Selby?

  But the, the difference is if you, if you spent all of that time that you've spent on bring a trailer, you could probably buy the cars that you're looking at, you know, and on, on increasing

• 2:13:11Speaker 01

  Right, so I'm going to agree with him. I'm going to say like, I'm going to pay you like kind of a backhanded compliment. I would think that like at your level of intelligence and hustle, et cetera, that you are incorrectly allocating your mental energy on savings. Because the revenue side that you can yield would blow away the savings.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  Right. So he's saying he's spending over 50% time thinking about savings. And it was like, if you just focus your mental energy on like, how can I generate revenue? Like, like significant capital, like more money than you actually need to live? I think you would be successful. And I think it would dwarf all your savings.

• 2:13:49Graham Stephan?

  What about the enjoyment of the hunt and feeling proud of a purchase? That is a thing for Graham. Yeah, it's just like, like there's the cars that I bought. I'm like,

• 2:13:58Graham Stephan?

  that was a great price. Like, that was a good, and I would have found this. Graham, I, I.

• 2:14:02Jack Selby?

  For his 4GT, I could see a little like sparkle in his eyes.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's another. Let me put it to you this way. I think you have probably superior mental acuity than me. How would it feel to buy a hundred of those cars and not give a care? How about the enjoyment?

• 2:14:16Graham Stephan?

  Need a hundred.

• 2:14:17Speaker 01

  I know, but I'm just saying like, or a hundred or other things. How would it know to feel like your kid is going to college and never have, and not have to worry about things? How, how would that feel? Do you think you get fulfillment from that?

• 2:14:27Graham Stephan?

  I don't, but the part of, so my counter to that would be, to me, it seems like a, like a disrespect of money.

• 2:14:35Speaker 01

  No, you're disrespecting your mental neurons and the allocation of it. You were, we're just talking about fulfillment.

• 2:14:41Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:41Speaker 01

  And you're saying, I love getting a deal on a car and doing that. I was like, do you like traveling? Are there other things you like in life? I mean, I'm not saying that it's not fulfillment.

• 2:14:48Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 2:14:48Speaker 01

  I mean, it's nice, but you don't have to do that all the time, right? Like, there's other things in life. And I'm just saying that if you allocated your mental neurons to the revenue side, given how bright you are, right? And the hustle you have and your work ethic, okay? That it would dwarf the fulfillment of getting the deals that you're getting. I'm just pointing that out. And that might not be true, right? Like, it'd be wrong. So I'm just saying, like, from the outside, a guy knows, I could be dead wrong. Perkage, you don't know what the you're talking about. A lot of times I don't know what I'm fucking talking about. I'm just saying that I think you're misallocating your resources. Like, if I got to play the game of your life.

• 2:15:23Graham Stephan?

  Sure.

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  With your resources and your abilities, right? Like, focus on saving deals all the time or spend time dreaming up ways and reviewing deals and making money? I'd be like, this one, this is the more fulfilling life. 50/50 or 80/20? I like 80/20 this way. So I think, I think just from an allocation, your mental cap, you have finite mental capacity.

• 2:15:46Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:46Speaker 01

  Right? Finite hours, right? I would just say that I think you're over allocated the wrong way.

• 2:15:51Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 2:15:51Speaker 01

  I could be dead wrong, right? But I'm just saying, and you're like, well, I get fulfillment. And I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment in 10 million bucks, right? And you're the type of guy that can make $10 million in a year. And so is he.

• 2:16:03Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. Yeah, like I said, I don't know if it's the enjoyment of saving, or I don't know if I'm programmed to think that I enjoy that because that's all I know.

• 2:16:10Speaker 01

  I would bet a lot of money it's the programming.

• 2:16:13Jack Selby?

  I mean, I've known him a long time and I've, I've said the same thing over and over again, that is programming. But he really does enjoy a deal. And I'm not just saying this to offend him. I'm just saying like,

• 2:16:23Speaker 01

  Well, he's well programmed.

• 2:16:24Jack Selby?

  He is to be a, He is very, very,

• 2:16:26Speaker 01

  Very well programmed.

• 2:16:27Jack Selby?

  And the only thing that I, I feel like as a friend that I could recommend to him, and then I want to hear your perspective on this, is that he should get uncomfortable a little bit more often. Because at this point in Graham's life, he has a very, very strong tie to just being comfortable. And it boils down to things as simple as like the temperature in a room. But I feel like what it comes down to is never trying something new and challenging yourself. It's like, you've been rewarded financially.

• 2:16:52Speaker 01

  That's where the growth is, right?

• 2:16:53Jack Selby?

  For, yes. And, and that's why I think like, maybe, just maybe you try to like, spend some money and just see if you like it. Maybe you try, like, when you got uncomfortable and you skipped a posting and you decreased the upload frequency on your main channel, your life has improved drastically and it took you years to get there. But realistically, you could have done it two years before. You really, really could have.

• 2:17:15Graham Stephan?

  I would beg to, I beg to differ on.

• 2:17:17Jack Selby?

  A year before. Like you, you, it didn't need to be exactly at that time. And I think that just, and not going all in with trying something new and getting uncomfortable, but doing little like, experiences and, and trying out small things every once in a while to get,

• 2:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, or even focusing on the revenue side. Like you don't have to go 80, 20. Like I said, you could just spend 10% more. I mean, there's just like a lot, there's a lot, like you're just like, I really enjoyed getting a deal. And like, I'm, I'm pretty sure your audience would be like, yeah, there is a lot of fulfillment in $10 million. Like, what are you talking about? Like if I told you for a fact, okay, let's just take all the risk out of it. That if Graham only focus 20% of your mental energy on savings and 80, 80% on like uh, making money, revenue ideas, uh, deals, whatever. And you are guaranteed to have $10 million extra. Would you take that deal?

• 2:18:10Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:10Speaker 01

  Okay. So then you already agree that if the reward is 10 million. So somewhere between zero and $10 million, it makes sense. You should calculate what that is and then see if it's achievable and then run it out.

• 2:18:23Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  You, you follow me? Like that's just consciously thinking about like, we just poo-pooed it right away. No, I get it. I enjoy getting a deal. I'm like, well, let's think about this for a second. Right? Somewhere between zero and $10 million, you should be spending more of your time focusing on revenue. And then we should think about what's realistic. And I, I think that, you know, not, not immediately, like nobody's going to learn how to play piano overnight. But I think there's like a lot of yield in your time. Like everything you create, it comes from out of your mind. This whole podcast, all your success, right? You don't go dig ditches or you're not a construction worker or whatever. It all comes from here, right? And then you executing on that, right? So more of that is more revenue and you've gotten comfortable where you're at. And you're like, I, all my fulfillment comes from making deals.

• 2:19:07Speaker 01

  And I'm like, well, there's a lot of fulfillment and having the capital and being able to spend that. And also obligations, future obligations have to be met. You said you want a big family. Well, it's a lot of obligations. So you should think about that. And then maybe you might go, well, 10% more on revenue side, mental focus or 20% or 30% or 80% or maybe even 90 more than Bill said, right? Cause that's, that's, that's kind of the conversation I had with myself, right? Like, am I going to save myself into the life I want? And the answer was no, not the life I want. Maybe some people can, but I couldn't. I wasn't going to save it. I'm like, I'm going to have to take big risk and make a lot of money.

• 2:19:42Graham Stephan?

  It's weird. I, not to dig too much into like my own personal matters, but like I, I think I've already done that. Where, where I'm like, I'm spending an amount that I'm comfortable with, assuming a 50% market drop. Like, you know, family obligations come up. You have a kid with a disability that needs some, some care. And it's like, all of these things happen at the same time. I'm talking like, oh, and then our income goes to zero. And so I'm like, I'm like, in that case, can I still live the exact same? And if the answer to that is yes, then I'm comfortable and then I'm good.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  Well, then you need no more. There's just no then then the answer would be honestly that. No, copy, paste, repeat. Like, I'm not here to change your life. I'm not here to save your life, right? I'm just here to tell you that there are ways that you can look at things and see like, hey, yes, $10 million I have use for it. What you're saying is I don't have the use for $10 million. I'm happy. I don't have any wants.

• 2:20:33Graham Stephan?

  Well, the thing is 10 could be five. And then at five, at a 4% withdrawal rate.

• 2:20:38Speaker 01

  Hey, there he goes.

• 2:20:39Graham Stephan?

  You know, after tax, now you're with, you know, 170 and then, you know.

• 2:20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm just saying like.

• 2:20:44Graham Stephan?

  Saying like.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  However, you convert it to fulfillment is your way, like whether you spend it on or 4% a year on getting deals at restaurants, that's up to you, right? I'm just saying, like, where is the best allocation of your resources? Right? And right now, we're talking about your health and roughly your mental health. Right? Where are you? Where are you sending these neurons? What problems should your neurons be working on? It seems like your neurons are heavily focused on saving. And I'm like, you know, those are some really good neurons, right, Jack? These are good neurons.

• 2:21:17Graham Stephan?

  Well.

• 2:21:18Speaker 01

  They're all right. They're all right. They're all right. He's got some good neurons, right? Like, you guys got good neurons together with your friend together, these neurons. I'm like, should I focus those neurons on the revenue side? Me, evil Bill Perkins. Right? I'm like, give me those neurons. Let's focus on the revenue side. No more standing outside trying to get leftovers.

• 2:21:36Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. I could commit to a few months of trying that out. Like, two months is an experiment.

• 2:21:44Jack Selby?

  And how, what is that going to look like in an application?

• 2:21:46Graham Stephan?

  I would say instead of being so focused on a saving little aspects here and there of just being more focused on the the revenue generating side.

• 2:21:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, he needs an action plan. Like, what is that? We're going to meet on Tuesday and go through ideas, stocks, investments, business building? Like, what are we going to? Like, what, how, tell me, what are the things you're going to do? I mean, we don't have to lay it out now, but you should commit to that.

• 2:22:10Graham Stephan?

  It would, it would probably just be less focused on like the little tiny details, which maybe that frees up an extra 10% where.

• 2:22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but the brain has to then take those neurons and apply them to like, what is your action plan? But we don't, we don't have to go into that right now, but like offline, you guys should be like, okay, every. X day, whatever o'clock, we're gonna have a meeting and we're gonna go over these things and get action items on like whatever and we're gonna execute on one of these plans.

• 2:22:34Graham Stephan?

  Well, I'd say one of the biggest ones is office space. Jack and I right now don't have an office. It's out of a bedroom, which I love. It's convenient, but it also doesn't lend itself to working together.

• 2:22:46Speaker 01

  How does that yield more money? Cause we're focused on the revenue side.

• 2:22:49Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Whereas back in the day, like someone would come up with an idea and the amount of time between idea and execution was a lot longer because we had a text and, you know, I'd only see Graham once a week or this or that. But I think that if we had an office, we were all meeting in person.

• 2:23:02Speaker 01

  You're a hundred percent right.

• 2:23:03Jack Selby?

  The, the speed by which things will get done is, is a lot faster.

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  So the way I'm understanding is that if you put out more content, it equals more revenue and your audience grows.

• 2:23:12Jack Selby?

  More content, but also just like in terms of just like communication and coming up with, you know, guest ideas.

• 2:23:17Speaker 01

  Better content, yes.

• 2:23:18Jack Selby?

  You know? Yeah.

• 2:23:19Speaker 01

  So you have, you have, you have more content, better guest ideas, better quality show, better execution, more money.

• 2:23:25Graham Stephan?

  So here's what holds me back from a finance perspective. We have it so well in the house. It's easy. There's no commute. The cost of each episode to produce is like a few grand as it is. And I'm like, if we tack an office on top of that.

• 2:23:41Jack Selby?

  The cost per episode.

• 2:23:42Graham Stephan?

  Now the cost per episode more than doubles because we don't film every episode in our office. We film maybe half of them in the office and then the other half, sorry, half of them in, in the home studio and then either half on the road like we are right now. And so if we only film two episodes a month in an office space that we now rent, the cost per episode skyrockets. And now our, our threshold is so high and I'm like, do we need that?

• 2:24:09Speaker 01

  Well, it depends on the production value and what goes into it. And it, the only answer is, is it net more revenue? And does it grow the platform?

• 2:24:16Graham Stephan?

  I would say the, the quality's gonna be the same. I don't think quality's, maybe a marginal improvement.

• 2:24:22Jack Selby?

  Quality will be improved a little bit. I think the main thing is just that we're kind of talking every day. You know what I mean?

• 2:24:27Speaker 01

  So idea generation.

• 2:24:28Jack Selby?

  Idea generation, yeah.

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  So, so what he would say on his argument, using his neurons, he would say that, why don't we just have a mandatory zoom every day that we discuss this? And it's a 20 minute zoom.

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• 2:25:41Speaker 01

  And that will solve the idea generation would have in an office?

• 2:25:44Jack Selby?

  We could. I just, I don't think we would. Like, like, I think like we can come up.

• 2:25:48Speaker 01

  You don't think you would?

• 2:25:49Jack Selby?

  I don't think we would do the Zoom. No, we'd be like, I don't really have anything to talk about today. But if we're like in the office and we're just kind of working on something. Oh, this is interesting. And then I run it by.

• 2:25:57Speaker 01

  So you're saying that the thought, like, what if you had a mandatory meeting place that you went to? So it wasn't an office, but like every X time we have to go to Starbucks or wherever the place that people hang out and.

• 2:26:07Jack Selby?

  That could, that could work out.

• 2:26:09Graham Stephan?

  The thing is, when you pay for something, you're going to value and use it more. And it's one of the, like, like an expensive gym membership where it's like, oh, man, if I don't use it, now I'm wasting money. That's how I, that's a motivator for me.

• 2:26:23Speaker 01

  That's what you need to get him to go to ideate to create the more money. Then I guess that's the only way you can do it. If you can't force yourself to meet at a meeting place or whatever. But like this whole exercise, and I'm not saying that you come to the exercise is that this is how you should be spending your neurons more so than. The food example. Yeah. That that's just my two cents, right? Like, I think that's what's going to drive you to the level of comfort that you aspire to to live. And the level of pickleball travel that you want to live more so than saving. Panhandling for half-eaten sushi. Panhandling, I I panhandled before as an exercise. How was that? It was it was eye opening. It was awakening and it was it was uh it helped me realize that no matter what, you can make money.

• 2:27:09Speaker 01

  Were people nice to you? No, it was a little dangerous. It was a dangerous job. A lot of people were nice and there was some danger associated with it. What happened? Oh, there were some like gang bangers that were gonna me up. You know, like, get out of the street or do whatever, you know what I mean? Like, just because, because you're low, because they can, right? Humans are humans and there were people who were very nice and very sweet. How much did you make? Enough to be on pace to make like sixty to seventy thousand dollars a year tax free. Whoa. Right? But I stopped, I stopped the experiment. It was part of an emotional intelligence class, right? Like facing your fears about things. And I went out and did it and it was very liberating. And I was just like, yeah, you you're just you're just gonna be all right. And that was meant to teach people that no matter what. It was my exercise. No, it wasn't like everybody does this exercise.

• 2:27:54Speaker 01

  I see, okay. It was like my exercise, like some people had to go to something way high, whatever, like. But like, it was it was a great exercise. It was like, this is a hard job. Yeah. Uh, but it's a lucrative job. Was there an effective way, like a sign? I didn't even have a sign. Like, I was that, that's why I was like, oh, I know I can really crush it if I had a sign. So what's like the optimal way to panhandle? I don't know. I was only out there for like one day, a couple hours.

• 2:28:21Speaker 02

  You guys see Grant out on the corner?

• 2:28:23Speaker 01

  Graham's got a guy, he's like, he's like, okay, what freeway is the best? I think I think I think a sign would be better. I I think looking destitute uh is fine, but not completely like um disheveled or smelly or like scary. Uh, and being at a very busy intersection and it's going that has a light. Yeah. Uh, and that allows people to give you money.

• 2:28:49Speaker 01

  So I think the it's a it's always gonna boil down to a numbers game.

• 2:28:54Graham Stephan?

  That reminded me, I remember in 2009, I believe it was, I would get off a freeway exit in Studio City on a regular basis, driving from Glendale to Beverly Hills. And there was a guy who was constantly on the side of the freeway, but he he wore a suit, like like a decent looking suit. He wore glasses, clean cut sort of guy, but he said he lost his job, like on the side, he's like, he lost his job, looking for work, anything helps. And the fact that he wore a suit and seemed clean cut, I'm like, this is the guy who gets my money. So like, usually what I do is I'd pack Nutrigrain bars, actually, on my drive, knowing that when he's there, I give him a Nutrigrain bar, or I give him a water or something like that.

• 2:29:37Graham Stephan?

  But did that just popped into my mind like that?

• 2:29:40Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't know. I mean, the answer is, I don't know. I don't think like 90 minutes, 90 minutes or two hours out there, wherever time I was out there.

• 2:29:46Graham Stephan?

  Pops in his Ferrari and goes straight to. You don't know, that one lady pretended to be disabled. Yeah. And then she, you see her just like wheeling off a few blocks.

• 2:29:53Speaker 01

  I mean, if you're gonna be disingenuous, yeah.

• 2:29:55Graham Stephan?

  Hops into a Mercedes and she was making like a hundred grand a year.

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  You could, I mean, you can do well, I mean, but I think that would be ineffective allocation of your mental resources, but I could see him like maybe.

• 2:30:06Graham Stephan?

  If it's fulfilling.

• 2:30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could see him like gamifying it and getting some fulfillment out of it and justifying it.

• 2:30:11Graham Stephan?

  I like optimal. I like optimization. It's like, yeah, I go on a hike in the morning and then I pan hitl for half an hour and then I. My time is worth zero anyway.

• 2:30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's got this zero time gap going. Anyway, I don't have that many, you know, I can, I can ask a zillion questions, but I don't wanna, I don't wanna take up all, all our time.

• 2:30:28Graham Stephan?

  How about this, if you guys enjoy this episode, if you want a round two at some point, let us know in the comment section. We'll do my, I'll do my best to read as many as possible.

• 2:30:36Speaker 01

  You're like, I can't take this. I can't take this sushi.

• 2:30:40Speaker 01

  But if you, if you do, we can do it. We can do a round two.

• 2:30:42Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. And also for anyone who made it to this point in the episode, because I'm really curious about the retention graphs. If you've made it to this point, if you wouldn't mind giving us a comment, let us know you made it to the end. That would be awesome. Also, what you liked and what you disliked, that would also be very nice. Yeah.

• 2:30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we gotta, you gotta edit up and put bookmarks. People gotta skip around.

• 2:30:59Graham Stephan?

  Oh, yeah. There's a lot of. Yeah. So, and we're also gonna link to all of your info in the description, along with your book. I highly recommend it, by the way. And if you want to be a part of the group, the index, that link is also down below.

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  The index, huh? What goes on in the index?

• 2:31:12Graham Stephan?

  So.

• 2:31:13Speaker 01

  Oh dear, he's like, why'd you ask?

• 2:31:15Graham Stephan?

  Why, why are you doing this?

• 2:31:16Jack Selby?

  This is our third index slot in the video.

• 2:31:19Graham Stephan?

  We could cut it if you want to, yeah.

• 2:31:21Jack Selby?

  The index is an amazing group. I attended the, it was Disneyland and there was like a tour and then a very fancy dinner. Like Graham said, he dropped 40,000. The idea of the group is to get a bunch of young, wealthy people together to have experiences.

• 2:31:35Graham Stephan?

  I like it.

• 2:31:36Jack Selby?

  And a lot of the money that is paid by the, the members of the group gets cycled into these really lavish experiences.

• 2:31:42Graham Stephan?

  We do, we do really unique experiences that I would never do on my own, but I could justify it in a group like this.

• 2:31:48Speaker 01

  Cause you get the discount.

• 2:31:49Graham Stephan?

  Cause I get the discount, but then I could also, I reinvest. Like a lot of the money that goes in is just, I spend it back on those experiences, but we've cultivated a really cool group of like 13 people so far. And our vetting process is like, we go through like multiple rounds of phone calls just to make sure everyone's the right cultural fit.

• 2:32:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:32:06Graham Stephan?

  But yeah, like the group that we have so far is incredible. And when I submitted the first application, we got like 3,000 people applying. Uh, and out of those 3,000 so far, we picked like 13.

• 2:32:17Speaker 01

  That's great. So you guys are like investing experiences. So at the end of your life, when you retire, you retire on those memories.

• 2:32:22Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. And I like how involved everyone is. Like we've met some really cool people and one guy like, you know.

• 2:32:28Speaker 01

  How do you go through, say 3,000 applicants?

• 2:32:30Graham Stephan?

  3,000 applicants.

• 2:32:31Speaker 01

  Some of them are easy cut.

• 2:32:33Graham Stephan?

  I don't, I don't want to give the, the secrets away for how we, how we sort through, but, but we have a method for going through them that.

• 2:32:41Speaker 01

  I love this.

• 2:32:42Graham Stephan?

  It's not just me, but, but I have a partner on it.

• 2:32:44Speaker 01

  Offline, I gotta, I gotta find out what this is.

• 2:32:46Graham Stephan?

  Yeah. Listen, you're, you're invited.

• 2:32:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, the index. Just tell me when you go someplace fun. Just tell me where you're going, but like, all right.

• 2:32:52Graham Stephan?

  Deal.

• 2:32:53Speaker 01

  Disneyland would be out.

• 2:32:53Graham Stephan?

  Andy's a huge fan of you. So if you want to say, if you want to say hi to Andy.

• 2:32:56Speaker 01

  Hi, Andy.

• 2:32:58Jack Selby?

  Hi, Andy. Thank you guys for watching.

• 2:33:01Graham Stephan?

  Till next time.