249. Question Time: Political honeymoons - how quickly could the public turn on Keir Starmer?

Are we sleepwalking into a crisis that could totally overwhelm our prisons? Why is the South West often forgotten in politics? Why do political honeymoons often come to such abrupt endings? Alastair is again joined by friend of the show David Gauke to answer all these questions and more on today’s episode of The Rest Is Politics: Question Time. TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP ELECTION TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Election Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Podcast Editor: James Hodgson Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

• 1:13Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:15Speaker 02

  And me, David Cook.

• 1:17Alastair Campbell?

  Now, David, I want to start with a question about you and about the man that you're sitting in for, Rory. Robbie Meeks. David is clearly Rory's political hero, don't we hear it? So that begs the question, who is David's political hero and why?

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Well, I think it would be rude of me not to say Rory Stewart.

• 1:34Alastair Campbell?

  But that wouldn't be true, so let's have a truthful answer.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Well, Rory is a bit... I did campaign for him in the leadership race in 2019. I don't really have sort of one political hero. I have sort of moved politically more towards the centre. I was a big Margaret Thatcher fan. I still am, actually. I think she was a great Prime Minister. But I would find a few areas of difference. I suppose in terms of in my time in Parliament, I thought Ken Clark was terrific. And here was someone who knew what he thought, practical, robust, but moderate, thoughtful, really impressive. So I got to know him more actually in my last few years in Parliament. I mean, he was an MP before I was born and we finished at the same time and we were kind of allies in the sort of events of 2019. But I thought Ken Clark

• 2:21Speaker 02

  was a pretty splendid fellow.

• 2:23Alastair Campbell?

  That's good. I'm pleased to say that my nephew is standing for Labour in his constituency. So hopefully that will become a Labour gain. Who else then? Go back in history.

• 2:31Speaker 02

  So go back in history. So Robert Peel, if we want to go back there, I thought, you know, Conservative Party leader, largely formed the Conservative Party, but then sort of split. He was sort of at the moderate end and lost out to the sort of more extreme little Englanders type. So I suppose I have a degree of empathy there with Robert Peel. I'm more pro Gladstone than disraeli. I think I'd rather approve of Gladstone as a sort of treasury man and the sort of fiscal orthodoxy and the free trader aspect of it. So that's kind of where I would come from there. I think Churchill was obviously a great figure, flawed, but a great figure. So those are a few. Right. Next question. We've got one

• 3:13Speaker 02

  from Jordan Coombs saying the POA, the Prison Officers Association, are calling for a Royal Commission into the whole criminal justice system. Given the crises in prisons, what do you think is required to save a prison system in crisis? Will it take the death of an officer or another strange race arrives?

• 3:32Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's interesting. I think Jordan Coombs, if I'm right, is the POA representative at Hull.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 3:38Alastair Campbell?

  Prison. I think I saw that on his social media. And there's a question also from Mike Seer. Given the scoriating report on Wandsworth Prison, how would you propose to convert it from a warehouse back to a functional prison? I mean, Rory and I talk a lot about prisons, as you know, and I do think we are. Sleepwalking to a terrible disaster in some of these prisons. And I'm sure that's why Jordan's asking that question when he says, will it take the death of an officer or another strange ways riot assaults on prison officers are pretty high. Conditions for prisoners in some of our older prisons are terrible. I was very pleased as the world this weekend on Sunday devoted virtually the whole of their programme to the issue of prisons and this report on Wandsworth in particular. I just wonder from your perspective

• 4:21Alastair Campbell?

  as a former Justice Secretary and Lord Chancellor, do we take prisons seriously enough, not just in terms of the punishment side, but also the state of our prisons estate?

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Not really. It's not a big enough priority. We face some big challenges, some long term and short term challenges. So there's issues at the moment. We've got a lot of prisoners on remand. That's putting a great deal of strain on the prison population. We are pretty well at capacity, which is not where you want to be. You've got a lot of overcrowding, makes it very difficult. If you've got a troublesome prison, you actually want to reduce the population, get it back under control. The fundamental issue, though, is our prison population has grown very rapidly. So you go back to 1993, we had something like 43,000 people in prison. Today, it's it's more than double that. It's 87,000, I think we've got

• 5:11Speaker 02

  in prison. And our incarceration rate by European standards is really high. So for every 100,000 people in Norway, 55 are inside, the Netherlands 65. You get to Germany, it's 67, France, it's 107, England and Wales, it's 143. It's 141 in Scotland, largely the same. So, yeah, that's a big prison population and largely caused by longer sentences, which are successive governments have

• 5:42Alastair Campbell?

  Constantly demanded.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Constantly demanded. And there is always a debate saying, you know, if you really care about this issue, then there should be a specific crime with a longer sentence and so on. And over time, that just builds up. Now, if we're going to do that, then we have to spend a lot more money on new prisons. Keeping someone inside is expensive. It costs you 35, 40,000 pounds a year, I think, for every one person inside. I can't help thinking if other countries can cope with much lower incarceration rates. In fact, if we could cope with much lower incarceration rates, you know, in the 1980s, then, you know, there, there must be a better way because, you know, putting people inside,

• 6:26Speaker 02

  very hard to prepare them for the outside world, very hard to rehabilitate. You know, it's important we do more of that. I think it's been a consistent focus of recent justice secretaries about employment and what have you. But, you know, when the prison population is under the pressure that it is, you know, we're always going to struggle to cope. And, and frankly, prison spending is not a priority with the public. There is, there, you know, there are no votes to be won on this issue. I wish it was otherwise the case, but there aren't. And, you know, it's always going to be the case that it's going to be an underfunded area.

• 7:00Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but that's why, I mean, I really do hope that Keir Starmer, with his background and his history, he knows more about this probably than anybody. And I'm sure he also knows that the system as it, as it works is failing. So, you know, I, I think that this, we need a completely different approach on this. And I agree, it's politically difficult. But if we're serious about tackling the underlying problems that have led to this doubling, then we've got to stop this kind of idea that anybody does anything wrong has got to get banged up. And, you know, once they're there, we forget about them, which feels to me is where we are now. We're hoping to do an entire episode on prisons from inside a prison with the justice secretary, your successor, Alex Chalk. But in the meantime, you want to talk about Labour.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Okay, one from Ian Bellis. Will Labour get much of a post-election honeymoon, if any? And closely related, how does Keir Starmer keep the balance between change and renewal? And we can't fix it all immediately.

• 7:51Alastair Campbell?

  Uh, will it be much of a honeymoon? I suspect that if Labour get a majority, there will be a sense of widespread relief that the Tories have gone. I think that will give them the space for a lot of goodwill and hopefully a lot of energy, but I don't think it will be long because I think that the challenges that the Labour government will face are going to be enormous. I think the press will become pretty vile pretty quickly. I think you're already seeing the starting of that with Angela Rayner to a lesser extent with Keir Starmer. I then think that people's expectations, even though, as the questioner suggests, Keir Starmer is trying to keep them relatively

• 8:34Alastair Campbell?

  low. He's not promising the earth. He is saying a decade of national renewal. This is going to take a long time, but the expectations of change will be, I think, pretty high. So getting that balance right is going to be a real problem. And one of the, we're seeing it in Australia, we're seeing it in Germany, where governments that have come in, as it were, from the right to the left, I think they do get judged more harshly more quickly. And that is a big challenge. We talked in the main podcast about the need for Labour to have that sense of government project. That is what I hope somebody is thinking about very deeply.

• 9:06Speaker 02

  And in a honeymoon period that might be quite short, should the priority be prolonging the honeymoon or do the difficult stuff early?

• 9:13Alastair Campbell?

  Do the difficult stuff early. Look, the honeymoon will be whatever it is. I used to keep a, we had a very, very long political honeymoon and I used to keep in my left hand drawer in my desk in number 10, I used to keep these cuttings of Sunday write throughs that the big Sunday broadsheets do, which started, this was the week where the Blair honeymoon finally ended. And they went on for about three years. So Keir will not get a three year honeymoon, absolutely guaranteed. So I think you do have to think about the long term difficult things and get them done. So let's, let's go back to one of your times. You were part of Theresa May's cabinet. What sort of honeymoon did she get?

• 9:50Speaker 02

  Well, actually, to be fair, her first year was a bit of a honeymoon period. So

• 9:56Alastair Campbell?

  Without an election.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Without before, the period before the election. So she came in in 2016 after the referendum. Politics actually wasn't that much about the referendum really for that first period. Certainly cabinet wasn't talking about Brexit very much.

• 10:11Alastair Campbell?

  Really?

• 10:11Speaker 02

  No, no, not for the first year, hardly at all.

• 10:14Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the elephant was in the room then as well.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Well, it was all, you know, something was going on, but you know, there was, there was, you know, things were kept really. Close, you know, so within number ten and, you know, she was making speeches and a party conference speech that October where suddenly, you know, a load of red lines were announced and

• 10:33Alastair Campbell?

  You didn't know about that?

• 10:34Speaker 02

  No, we didn't know about that.

• 10:34Alastair Campbell?

  Wow.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  So that was held really tight, but

• 10:37Alastair Campbell?

  And there was us being criticised for not consulting the cabinet.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  No, no, no. Well, if you, um, talked to sort of Philip Hammond and the sort of, you know, recent Tim Shipman book sort of covers some of this, um, you know, the extent to which people didn't really know what was, what was happening at that point.

• 10:52Alastair Campbell?

  And what about, oh, what about twenty seventeen?

• 10:53Speaker 02

  Twenty seventeen, well, no, that was, that was the opposite of honeymoon, um, so

• 10:56Alastair Campbell?

  What is the opposite of honeymoon?

• 10:58Speaker 02

  I don't know, I suppose so, it was just, whatever it was, it wasn't, wasn't very pleasant, not as much fun as honeymoon, I would say.

• 11:04Alastair Campbell?

  No.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Uh, so, you know, there, you know, obviously Theresa May had lost her majority and, you know, there was a spell of can she stagger on, uh, which she could, but, you know, immediately, you know, the wind was taken out of the government, we had no majority, we had this huge task of Brexit ahead, um, and, you know, I think the writing was on the wall pretty well immediately, we got the election results that night.

• 11:27Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, David, here's one for you, uh, well, it's one for both of us, I guess. Jes Back, why does politics ignore the South West, especially Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall when looking at big funding? Do you think that's true? Funding?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  I'm not sure it's necessarily right on funding. Look, I mean, there are a big issue in the South West, I think, at the moment over things like HS2, or there was a bigger issue when HS2 was, was, was going ahead of saying, well, we're not getting any benefit from this. Uh, I, I think there is something about how in the national media the South West doesn't get that much attention, partly as a political battleground, partly because it's largely, not completely, but largely Conservative Liberal Democrat, rather than the big, you know, issue that determines who's Prime Minister, which is the Conservative Labour battle. So the focus will tend to be more on the kind of red wall or the traditional marginal seats, mid-sized towns, um, but because Labour aren't really, uh, you know,

• 12:21Speaker 02

  other than in the cities, they're not usually a big player in the South West of England. So I think it gets obscured. You know, twenty fifteen, one of the big stories of that general election was the Effectively, the Lib Dem wipeout in the South West as we took all their seats.

• 12:36Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  And that, I think, caught people by surprise. It didn't really get the media attention it might have done. You know, there's a big story there that went under the radar until the results came in. Now, this time round, this general election could be really interesting. There are some seats where Labour, in fact, are very competitive, not just the usual Plymouth and Exeter ones, but one or two others. Um, and, you know, the Liberal Democrats are definitely hoping for a big revival in the South West. Uh, so, you know, a lot of South West Conservatives.

• 13:03Alastair Campbell?

  So it could become more important.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  It could well become more important.

• 13:05Alastair Campbell?

  I can remember when Schröder was German Chancellor and he was chairing the summit where we, they were sorting out European Union structural funds. And I think I'm right that the moment when he told Tony Blair to how app, do you speak German?

• 13:20Speaker 02

  I do, I'm afraid.

• 13:20Alastair Campbell?

  Or how app basically means F off was when Tony was, Tony decided he need to go back into bat to get more money for the Highlands and Islands and Devon and Cornwall. So it was, we were fighting for Devon and Cornwall and admittedly, we didn't win everything we wanted at that time. But I think there's another point worth making here. Who's the, the most Western member of the cabinet? Do you know the answer to that?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't know. No, I don't know.

• 13:44Alastair Campbell?

  So, so for example, when we were in government, we had so many very, very prominent members of the government who came from the North East. Tony, obviously, Sedgefield, Alan Milburn, Jack Cunningham, Mo Mollum, uh, Steve Byers. We had a whole range of cabinet ministers who were from one region, and I think that probably did help that region. I can remember when, do you remember when David Penhaligon?

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:07Alastair Campbell?

  Was the MP, Liberal Democrat MP for, for Truro. And I remember he had a profile beyond, beyond his area and almost beyond his party. And he, it's tragic, he got killed in a car crash. So you need those MPs who are going to project a region. You also, of course, do need, this is why it's so sad, I think, that Bristol decided to get rid of their mayor. I think having those big figures, we've seen it in the recent mayor elections, big regional figures, I think, can help a region.

• 14:33Speaker 02

  I'm sure that's right. I suppose, um, Rishi Sunak comes from Hampshire, which is not the South West, but he is South West adjacent.

• 14:39Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but he's an MP for North Yorkshire.

• 14:40Speaker 02

  MP for North Yorkshire. But yeah, there's over the years, say, well, you know, Jacob Rees-Mogg, of course, famous Somerset MP, Liam Fox.

• 14:48Alastair Campbell?

  In the cabinet.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  No longer in the cabinet.

• 14:50Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, Liam Fox, he was Bristol.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  It's another Somerset seat.

• 14:52Alastair Campbell?

  But he's not in the cabinet. George Eustace used to be in the cabinet, no longer. Well, I guess what we're saying is, select yourselves.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:00Alastair Campbell?

  Select yourselves some great cabinet material MPs.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  That's the way forward.

• 15:05Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, David, quick break and then we'll get back with more questions.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  The Great Game: Strategic Struggle Between Britain and Russia.

• 15:29Speaker 04

  We assess, Prime Minister, with high confidence it was Russian.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

• 15:37Speaker 05

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Mern in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

• 15:54Speaker 03

  We would need to understand the policy context. All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today, disseminated into an operation order, or FRAGO.

• 16:05Speaker 06

  A FRAGO that says to kill the President of Russia?

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• 16:57Speaker 02

  Got a question about Catalonia, we've had their elections this week. Paul Rivera, do you have an opinion on the independent movement in Catalonia?

• 17:05Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I have an opinion on everything.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Of course you do. I've noticed.

• 17:09Alastair Campbell?

  Well, these are, you know, we talked a lot on the podcast about all these elections going on, and I don't suppose there are that many regional elections that we cover. But I think the Catalonia elections are very, very interesting. Because the socialists have won, and that does appear to be an endorsement of Sanchez, the prime minister, the national prime minister, who's been trying to normalise relations, not least through an amnesty for those that were, some of them still on the run, because of the referendum that was called and their reaction to it. The numbers, so basically what's happened is the independentists are no longer able to form a majority. So it's a big, big win for Sanchez and the socialists. And where that takes the independence debate, I don't know, but I suspect in a backwards

• 17:54Alastair Campbell?

  direction.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  That seems to be it. And is there a wider pattern? Because people, I mean, Matthew Paris had a piece at the weekend suggesting that, you know, what's happening in Catalonia, what's happening in Scotland, Quebec, separatist movements seem to be running out of steam a little bit. Do you think there's a, there's a general pattern here, or is this a one-off?

• 18:13Alastair Campbell?

  I wonder whether part of it is that the pattern is less about separatism than about incumbency. So that the, so in Scotland, I think the, it's partly been about the SNP have been in power for so long, so their central message is being rejected. And likewise, I think a little bit with Catalonia is this sense of, you know, are we ever going to talk about anything apart from independence? Are we ever going to get on and just try and deliver the stuff that we want delivered? So I don't know whether it's anti-separatism. I also, I also do think, sorry to go on about my, you know, the elephant in the room, I do think that the consequences of Brexit for the UK... Has had an impact around Europe and beyond of people saying, you know, playing around with these long established constitutional arrangements can sometimes do more harm than good.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Brexit a force for conservatism, constitutional conservatism.

• 19:00Alastair Campbell?

  Is that what it is?

• 19:01Speaker 02

  That sounds good to me, yeah.

• 19:03Alastair Campbell?

  Now, listen, while we're talking on elections, last week, we had a long discussion about the South African election and we got a lot of feedback, some of it very, very positive, but one piece of feedback from a few people, and I wish I'd picked it up at the time because it sort of, it sounded wrong, but Rory gets so upset when you rebut him live on air. But this one's from Pierre Nivelli. Can you please fact check the completely wrong South Africa statistics from your more recent episode? The statistic that he's referring to is Rory said that there were now 300,000 white South Africans, and I think he was looking at a piece of briefing paper that was referring to one city. The facts are there are over four and a half million white South Africans. So apologies to all who listened to what I hope was otherwise a very informative debate

• 19:48Alastair Campbell?

  about the South African elections.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Alison, we've got a question, I think you'll enjoy this one, get your teeth into this, from just down at Queen Mary University. The Prime Minister is using a key sector as a plaything in a doomed to fail election campaign. Increasing international student numbers was a strategy five years ago, they bring in billions of pounds. How do we prevent this gambling with the security of the country for one party's election campaign?

• 20:13Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think you can get your teeth into that as well. I'm sure you don't disagree with me that much on that one.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  On this one, I think no, I think we'll be agreeing agreeably. So it's right to point out, it really wasn't that long ago where the government was saying, we want to bring in 600,000 international students, they bring in an awful lot of money, they cross subsidise British students, it increases our soft power, all these people go off around the world, you know, looking back fondly, one would hope, on their time in the UK. Now, it's all about tightening up immigration numbers. And I have to say, I agree with the implicit message in the question, I think this is short sighted, I don't think this is in the interests of the country.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  I think it's absolutely right, by the way, to deal with bogus colleges and abuses of the system. And there was an issue, I remember when we came in in 2010, we did feel that there were some abuses of the system that need to be addressed. But overall, international students seem to me really important for this country. It's important export sector. If you like, yeah, we should be teaching as many people as possible as we can.

• 21:23Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely, and you mentioned soft power there. We did some polling recently that you probably heard us talk about on the podcast. You know, our university sector is a massively important part of our soft power. Because it's where we can provide intellectual leadership. As you say, there are people who, some come here and settle and they make a contribution all sorts of different ways. Others come here and then they go to the rest of the world. But there was a guy on the radio this morning from a Kurd who was talking about, you know, he was in Kurdistan. He was talking about, I can't even remember what he was on about, but he was, he made the point that he knows Britain well because he was educated here. And he's got very, very fond memories, et cetera. That stuff matters. And I think that, you know, we talked on the main podcast about Rishi Sunak's strategy.

• 22:04Alastair Campbell?

  And it feels to me like he is somebody who, if he was given a free hand, would not be necessarily saying what he says about the university sector. But he's being pushed into it because he thinks he has to keep this kind of right wing tail attached to the dog. And as a result, they're wagging him.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's right. I mean, I, I, I think at heart, Rishi Sunak is a bit of, I'd describe as sort of treasury man, which is, you know, focus on the economy, do the right thing economically. Grow the economy as much as you can. You know, there, there are lots of areas where he and I might disagree on what it would be. But I think those are what he's, what he aspires to do.

• 22:40Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  And I think that, you know, the treasury argument on international students is to be very pro. Um, yeah, yeah, stop the bogus ones. But, you know, honestly, they add to the economy and they make us a more dynamic nation. So, yeah, I think, I think there is a degree in which he is pandering to the, to the anti-immigration right of the party.

• 22:57Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  So, Alice, I think this is a question for you from Kaiser. Uh, why do the Labour left seem to hate Starmer more than Sunak?

• 23:05Alastair Campbell?

  Phew, good question. Very, very good question. And I think there's something in it. I suspect it's not that they don't loathe Sunak for kind of being a Tory Prime Minister who's, you know, entitled and not elected and all that stuff, but they certainly put their energies into attacking Keir Starmer much more, partly because there has always been elements inside the Labour Party for whom politics begins and ends in the debate inside the Labour Party. I think you have some of those in the Tories, but fewer. And secondly, I guess because they think that he stood on a deliberately, this goes back to what we're talking about in the main podcast, when Morgan McSweeney was helping him become leader of the Labour Party. I think he, they understood that to win and to get the votes

• 23:49Alastair Campbell?

  needed to win, he was going to have to project himself to those who had been voted for Jeremy Corbyn. And I think that was a very deliberate strategy, pretty ruthless strategy in its own way, because most of those promises have either been watered down or some of them completely ditched. So I think that's probably why. They basically don't think that he's the same as Jeremy Corbyn. Now, the trouble with that from their perspective is that that plays completely into Keir Starmer's strategy for the broader public, which is to say, yeah, you're right, this is not Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party anymore. But I think that's the simple answer. Have you got any reflections on that?

• 24:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it seems to me that it's a particular attribute of the far left that politics is a lot about purity. It's a lot about, you know, how virtuous I am. It doesn't really like to get itself into the sort of grubby business of winning votes. So I think there's a large element of that. I think there probably is a genuine sense of betrayal, if you like, as you say. There's always, as far as I can see, the Labour Party, a desire to feel betrayed.

• 24:53Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's especially subject. Neil Kinnock had it, John Smith had it, Tony Blair had it. You were always attacked for selling out the Labour Party and not understanding the Labour Party. That's another one they're given. And they're almost always, I'm going to get a lot of abuse for this, but they're almost always the kind of very well educated, pretty well off people who tell you that you're selling out the working class.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yes. I think that's right. And I think there's, there's an element of, I think there are more people on the left who enjoy opposition. There are a lot of, there's no real pressure, you don't have to take responsibility, you can be very high minded.

• 25:32Alastair Campbell?

  I think, by the way, I think Nigel Farage is the same.

• 25:34Speaker 02

  A little bit, yes.

• 25:35Alastair Campbell?

  I think Farage is somebody who would run a mile from government. He can talk the talk, but I think he'd find it very, very difficult. And I suspect that when it looked in the Theresa May's election that Jeremy Corbyn might win, I suspect Jeremy was pretty terrified at the prospect. I could be wrong.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  He wasn't alone. He wasn't alone. But.

• 25:56Alastair Campbell?

  Oh my God, that was the easiest. That was well outside the off stump, wasn't it?

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Um, but no, I agree. I mean, I don't think Jeremy Corbyn ever began a political career with a sort of, I want one day, I want to be in Downing Street. I want to seize the levers of power and do things. And, and I think that's where there is a sort of big temperamental difference between, if you like, a lot of the extremes, more, I think more commonly found on the far left. Whereas I think the Conservative Party historically has always been.

• 26:21Alastair Campbell?

  Obsessed about power.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Obsessed about power. Yeah. The purpose of the Conservative Party is.

• 26:25Alastair Campbell?

  To be in power.

• 26:25Speaker 02

  To be in power.

• 26:26Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, and to stay in power.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:28Alastair Campbell?

  And then occasionally have a little breather and out you go, refresh your batteries and come back. Let's hope this time it's a long rest. Now, talking of winning and losing, somebody called Never Right with a W. This is definitely one for you, though I fear I may have my views as well. And I know that Rory would not have views on this. Views on Ipswich Town's promotion, two seasons straight. But seriously, why don't we invest in grassroots sports for kids? Well, I'm completely up for that one. I was at a wonderful event the other day. It was the 50th anniversary of Islington Boxing Club. And they were doing this fundraiser and actually Frank Warren was there, the boxing promoter. And he was, he was saying, why don't Labour just come out and say that they're going to reverse all the stuff that cuts to youth clubs and, you know, put a bit of money, more money into grassroots sports. And I'm totally up for

• 27:13Alastair Campbell?

  that. So I hope Labour do, do more for that. But let's, let's put the big, serious politics to one side. Let's, and I'm, I'm so happy to have a podcast co presenter to, I can say this, Let's Talk Football. I mean, first of all, can you understand people who don't, don't like sport?

• 27:29Speaker 02

  It's beyond me. I mean, to be fair, some of my best friends, my wife, she doesn't really like sport. But no, I, I, you know, live and breathe it. And for me, football and cricket. And particularly over the last two years, my love of football has deepened again to levels.

• 27:46Alastair Campbell?

  So we should tell this as you're an Ipswich Town fan.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Ipswich Town fan, grew up in Ipswich at a time where they were incredibly successful.

• 27:52Alastair Campbell?

  That's sort of Bobby Robson era.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I can go on an enormous length about the time I met Bobby Robson when I was a child and all that sort of stuff. So, and then we were, you know, small club that was, you know, we were winning trophies in Europe, we won the FA Cup. We were runners up in the old Championship, two seasons running. I sort of followed them when I was going to games generally as sort of on the decline. And then they were kind of up and down, but, you know, dropped down to the third tier. Got this marvellous, fabulous new manager, Kieran McKenna, got us promoted from the third tier last season. You know, hope we'll do okay in the next, you know, the next level and then finish second in the Championship, promoted 96 points, Premier League next year.

• 28:34Alastair Campbell?

  Replacing.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Burnley and commiserations. But look, I would say the Championship, Alastair, you know, lots of goals, lots of wins.

• 28:42Alastair Campbell?

  I've always loved the Championship.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Big party at the end of the season. I mean, we've just had a lovely time.

• 28:46Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, of course you have. No, no, I've, I've always loved the Championship and I was at the game on Saturday at Tottenham and I kind of, I wasn't terribly surprised by it.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Are you going to bounce back? Straight back up? Parachute money?

• 28:58Alastair Campbell?

  I don't, you should be in a strong position, but I, I, nothing, it's like the election, David. Take nothing for granted until the balls are kicked. Take nothing for granted until the votes are counted. Um, we should close by mentioning one of the most iconic figures on this podcast, which is Darren Bent. Which thereby guarantees, guarantees us even more coverage on Talksport because every time we talk about Darren Bent, Darren Bent talks about us talking about Darren Bent. So where did the Darren Bent thing come from?

• 29:28Speaker 02

  On the podcast?

• 29:29Alastair Campbell?

  On the podcast, yeah, because it's become quite a thing.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  You tell me. I mean, Rory, as, as we have discussed, is not renowned for his knowledge of footballers. And yeah, that's sort of every other episode, he seemed to be talking about Darren Bent.

• 29:42Alastair Campbell?

  Wasn't that because you'd, you must have mentioned Darren Bent.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  No, I don't think it was, I don't think it was me, but I did for his birthday.

• 29:49Alastair Campbell?

  I know.

• 29:49Speaker 02

  So, uh, what do you get the man who has everything for his 50th birthday? Well, of course the answer is you get him a big. You know, framed picture of Darren Bent, which I did. I tried to get it signed. Unfortunately, I couldn't get hold of Darren at the time.

• 30:03Alastair Campbell?

  Darren, Darren, we know you're listening.

• 30:05Speaker 02

  He didn't respond to my appeal. His agent didn't respond to my appeals.

• 30:08Alastair Campbell?

  We don't deal with agents. We just go straight to the, straight to the goods.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not as well connected as you are.

• 30:13Alastair Campbell?

  Well, you should have got in touch and we'd have got Darren on. I'm sure Darren would love to sign your poster. I must admit, when we've done the podcast with Rory and he's been at home, I've never, I've not yet seen it in the background. So we need to find out where it's hung.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  No, quite. I was in his London house the other day and searching all over, couldn't find it anywhere.

• 30:29Alastair Campbell?

  Wasn't there?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it must be in Scotland.

• 30:30Alastair Campbell?

  It must be in Scotland, yeah.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  But no, so I left this present for him at their party that I saw you at and left this on the Sunday morning. Got a text that evening from Rory saying, so David, thank you for the lovely present. Who is it?

• 30:44Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, no. Oh, no.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  So.

• 30:48Alastair Campbell?

  So even after we discussed Darren Bent, even after Darren Bent had talked about it on his radio show.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. How many other footballers posters were you going to get for your birthday? So, so anyway, I went back. It's Darren Bent, of course. And, you know, he said it was lovely. But where it is, I don't know. You ask him. I mean, maybe I should come in with a question for next week.

• 31:05Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. I think you should, yeah. Where is the Darren Bent poster? Darren, if you want the former Tory Cabinet Minister who does know about football to talk to on the programme, particularly about Ipswich Town, if you can't get it, Sharon, David Gorksy, man. David, thank you for being here. Thank you for two excellent episodes. Thoroughly enjoyed them. And we'll see you again next time he goes on a retreat.

• 31:26Speaker 02

  Thank you very much.

• 31:27Alastair Campbell?

  Thank you, guys.