CrossFit Athlete Brooke Wells on Training The Mind and Reaching Your Potential | This Is How You Can Talk To The Dead

Ryan reads today’s daily meditation and talks to Professional CrossFit Athlete Brooke Wells about getting better not just physically but mentally, how she finds balance in an inherently unbalanced profession, how to be great but not miserable, and more. Brooke Wells is a 7x CrossFit Games Athlete. She made a name for herself at the 2015 Central Regional, which she won at 19 years old. It was her first individual regional appearance. In 2014, she competed with team 540 Beefy of CrossFit 540 at the North Central Regional. She went on to take 16th in her debut Games appearance in 2015. She proved herself again in 2016, taking third at the Central Regional but catapulting to sixth at the Games with six top-five finishes and one event win. Wells is a student at the University of Missouri and a trainer at CrossFit Fringe in Columbia. GiveWell is the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. If you’ve never donated to GiveWell’s recommended charities before, you can have your donation matched up to $250 before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last. Just go to GiveWell.org and pick podcast and enter DAILY STOIC at checkout. SimpliSafe just launched their new Wireless Outdoor Security Camera. Get the new SimpliSafe Wireless Outdoor Security Camera, visit https://simplisafe.com/stoic. What’s more, SimpliSafe is celebrating this new camera by offering 20% off your entire new system and your first month of monitoring service FREE, when you enroll in Interactive Monitoring. Again that’s https://simplisafe.com/stoic. KiwiCo believes in the power of kids and that small lessons today can mean big, world-changing ideas tomorrow. This holiday season, give the gift of a fun, hands-on holiday experience with KiwiCo. KiwiCo is a subscription service that delivers everything your kids will need to make, create and play. Get 50% off your first month plus FREE shipping on ANY crate line with code STOIC at kiwico.com. Competitive Cyclist is THE online specialty retailer of road and mountain bikes, components, apparel, and accessories. Go to competitivecyclist.com/DAILYSTOIC and enter promo code DAILYSTOIC to get fifteen percent off your first full-priced purchase plus FREE SHIPPING on orders of $50 or more. Some exclusions apply. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://DailyStoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more. Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookFollow Brooke: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, a short passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you find strength and insight here in everyday life. And on Wednesdays, we talk to some of our fellow students of ancient philosophy, well-known and obscure, fascinating and powerful. With them, we discuss the strategies and habits that have helped them become who they are, and also to find peace and wisdom in their actual lives. But first, we've got a quick message from one of our sponsors.

• 0:43Ryan Holiday?

  "This is how you can talk to the dead. When Xeno was a young man, he visited the oracle of Delphi to learn about his future. The prophecy he got was cryptic. His best life could have been had only through conversing with the dead. What does that mean? Xeno wasn't sure, until he made a realization you may have made yourself: Reading is a way to communicate with the dead and the past." It's pretty incredible, actually. Although Marcus Aurelius is long since past, you can have a conversation with him by picking up meditations. Seneca has been dead even longer, and yet you can get what amounts to a daily letter from him every day by reading letters of a Stoic. For roughly 5,000 years, humans have been writing things down in books.

• 1:26Ryan Holiday?

  You can, at the snap of your fingers, talk to these people. You can literally have them talk to you in the form of an audiobook. Why would you not take advantage of that? Why would you be so antisocial? This, of course, is also a reason to journal and to write to yourself, so that you can reach forward and talk to the generations that came after you. We are in this long, ongoing project, a dialogue together, about how to learn, how to grow, what to do, what not to do, how to be wiser, smarter, and better. So don't be antisocial. Don't tune it out. Be like Xeno. Talk to the dead.

• 2:02Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. It's really important to me that Stoicism doesn't feel like this male thing. Like tragically, most of the Stoic figures in history were men because men dominated public life. But that doesn't mean, for instance, that Stoicism is just for men. But it also, it also doesn't mean that there weren't many, many, many Stoic women historically. I talk about Porcicato in Lives of the Stoics, one of my favorite people to write about, and Musonius Rufus, one of the, the great Roman Stoics, talks about how philosophy should

• 2:46Ryan Holiday?

  be pursued by, by men and women. But again, the, the result, the, if it's not explicitly addressed, there is this sense that it's a very male, very masculine philosophy. It's been one of the joys of my books to see just how much they have resonated universally across gender, culture, lifestyles, careers, industries, et cetera. And so one of the, one of the best parts of the podcast has been talking to people with very different experiences than mine, different lives and approaches than mine, and definitely getting

• 3:25Ryan Holiday?

  to talk to strong women. And you might have heard my interview a couple months ago with, or it could be weeks ago, I have no conception of time anymore, I don't know about you, but with Steffi Cohen, one of the strongest women in the world. And my guest today, Brooke Wells, is another incredibly strong woman, a seven-time CrossFit Games athlete. She made a name for herself at the 2015 Central Regional, which she won at 19 years old. She's competed in all sorts of CrossFit competitions. She's one of the best CrossFit athletes in the world. For instance, in 2021, she is currently ranked as the ninth?

• 4:05Ryan Holiday?

  Best CrossFit woman in the world, fifth in North America in 2020. She was 11th in 2019. She was sixth. 2018, she was sixth. 2017, she was ninth. She was third in the US at one point, fifth in the US at another point, second in the US at another point. The point is, she is on an incredible sustained run of excellence in an incredibly difficult sport. And as we'll talk about in the episode, a bit of a social media expert as well. She has 1.6 million Instagram followers. I follow her for inspiration, for sure. You can follow

• 4:50Ryan Holiday?

  her at @BrookeWells with two S's pretty much everywhere. That's B-R-O-O-K-E-W-E-L-L-S-S. Look, just an incredible athlete. And what I really was excited to talk to her about in this episode, which I hope you will enjoy, is the connection between not just Stoicism and women and its universality, but really Stoicism and fitness, the connection to weightlifting and strength training, which as a runner is less my thing, but it is something I am working on and do enjoy from time to time. So here is my interview with the one and only Brooke Wells. Enjoy.

• 5:35Ryan Holiday?

  When people think ancient philosophy, I don't think they think weightlifting. But when I read the Stoics, I can't shake the, I can't shake the impression that they knew too much about it to not be at least somewhat into training, right? So I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you some quotes, and then you hit me back what they mean to you and what you think of them, okay?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 6:05Ryan Holiday?

  All right. So this is Epictetus. He says, "If you're improving, let's see some evidence of it." He says, "But no, it's as if I were to say to an athlete, 'Show me your shoulders,' and he responded with, 'Have a look at my weights.' 'Get out of here with your weights,' I'd say. 'I don't want to see your weights. I want to see how I've, I want to see how you've profited from using them.'"

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I kind of take that as like, it's not really about how much weight that you're lifting, but it's about like what it's doing to better yourself. So it's not always about, oh, I'm lifting way more than the person next to you and comparing it to someone else. But as long as you're benefiting yourself and getting better, then that's all that matters.

• 6:48Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's right. And I think he's also so saying that we should show and not tell. Right? So like the, the, the proof is not what you post on social media, or the elaborate, you know, sort of regimen that you go through. But like, at the end of the day, are you stronger? Are you in better shape? Are you more disciplined and all of that?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yes, totally agree with that.

• 7:14Ryan Holiday?

  And then in one of my other favorite quotes from Epictetus, he actually compares reading to weight training. He says that you're, he says that books are the weight training for, he says that books are weight training for the mind.

• 7:29Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, I was gonna, that's when he said reading is comparable to weights. I was gonna say, weights kind of like train your body, but then reading trains your mind. So it just kind of like, I think it comes together.

• 7:42Ryan Holiday?

  How do you think about that? Because I think that's how you and I connected. You'd like posted a picture of one of the books or something. How do you think about getting better, not just physically, but also mentally? Especially now, because you're, you're still recovering, right? Or you had to take a break from training due to an injury. But I imagine, I imagine you didn't give up entirely. You, you had to find other ways to sort of expend that energy.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I almost feel like now that I'm hurt, I'm kind of like training my mind instead of my body. Because, I mean, my body's not really like fully functional right now. And that's a big part that I think a lot of athletes are missing is they, they can train their body as much as they want, but when it comes to like showing how fit you are, how like better you are than yesterday, it's like, they don't train their mind enough in order to like be mentally tough.

• 8:33Ryan Holiday?

  And so have you, have you always been a big reader or is this something you came to later? Like, how do you think about getting better mentally?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Um, I think over the years I have become a lot bigger into reading, but that's because when I started reading, I saw how much improvement I had in the gym, which is crazy to think that like I'm not doing anything um, physical by reading, but I'm actually just growing my mind and I'm just like becoming a better person. Um, like more mentally tough and it shows in the gym, which like you probably wouldn't like normally think of. So I've, I've kind of become more of a reader over the years after noticing how big of a change that has made.

• 9:14Ryan Holiday?

  What, what have been some books that, that hit, hit you particularly hard?

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Um, I think one of the first books that I read was Can't Hurt Me. And so that one was like super intense. Um, just kind of like when I was in the gym, struggling, like I had to remember that he would run like a hundred miles on like broken pee and stuff. And so super intense, but it just kind of helped me like, um, be more mentally tough. And then I read Your Obstacle is the Way. That was a really good one. Um, let's see, Atomic Habits. I'm currently reading Slight Edge.

• 9:48Ryan Holiday?

  Um, oh, what's that about? I haven't heard of that.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  So that one's just kind of like the little things will over time and will like you have like a slight edge and then they'll just kind of add up. So it has like a lot of just different um, examples. And so that one's pretty good too.

• 10:01Ryan Holiday?

  That's what I feel like Atomic Habits is really about. It's like, what are the little things that cumulatively add up in a big way?

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's huge on, I mean, not just being an athlete, but anyone and anyone just trying to be better every single day. It's like the little small things you like, don't notice. You won't notice for even like the first maybe couple of months. It's like, um, you just don't ever want to like, just have immediate um, proof or just, it just takes time. I think that's what um, you have to learn.

• 10:34Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's like, we're always looking for this sort of big transformative things, but I think especially like for someone like you, you're at the top of your field. So like you've already done most of those things. And if you hadn't, you probably wouldn't be where you are, right? Like, nobody, Michael Jordan doesn't wake up one day and, and be like, oh, you know what I should do? I should add this to my game. Cause it's probably already there. You wouldn't be the best in the world. But then, you know, I was reading about, um,

• 11:02Ryan Holiday?

  I was reading this book, actually, I have it here. I don't know where it went. I read this book about the New England Patriots and Tom Brady, and they were talking about how Tom Brady's secret addiction is not actually winning, but it's about getting, doing things better. So for him, he's like, how do I get, how do I make this throw 5% more accurate in the fourth quarter? So, you know, he's not thinking about like, how do I just throw better generally? But he's like, how do I do these tiny things better that over the course of a season or over the course of five years of playing, might win two more games, or might win the Super Bowl? Because it comes down to that little thing.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's really interesting, too. I feel like a lot of athletes these days, all that they want to do is like, get as much work as they can possible. Like, they want to accumulate more like quantity over quality. And so they're just trying to like, I just need to check this box, move on, get to the next box. And that's something that I've learned is just like, it won't pay off in the long run. I think if you take more time and don't rush, if you do less, your quality over quantity is way more important than how much you're actually doing.

• 12:14Ryan Holiday?

  That's, that, that would be particularly true, I imagine, in your profession, which is like, you know, like, so comedians or authors, we talk about reps, right? Like, how, how often you do the thing that's how you get better. But you are literally doing reps. Like, that is what your thing is. And so, yeah, doing, doing, in training at least, doing fewer reps better is probably overall better for your long-term sustainability than doing just like, just gutting out tons of stuff, because that's how you get hurt.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. I mean, obviously, like, the more hours and the more times you do something over and over again, like, that's gonna pay off as well. But I think just making sure that, like, you're actually giving everything that you have into each single rep, instead of just trying to get as many done as possible, as fast as possible.

• 13:01Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and because you are doing the same thing over and over and over again, which is unusual, right, for for most professions. But in your specific case, since you're doing the same thing in reps, if you find a way to do the rep 1% better, you improve your technique 1%, then you get massive cumulative benefits from that because each time you're doing it more efficiently or effectively.

• 13:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, and in the moment, like 1% may not seem like very much. But like, uh, once you're at like the top of the sport, like that 1% really matters. And then once that continually just adds over time, like it's going to pay off in the long run.

• 13:41Ryan Holiday?

  So the other thing the Stoics talked about, and they tended to use boxing more as the uh, the analogy, but I think they also use like lifting heavy things, which is this idea that um, life throws obstacles or difficulties at us, just like in the boxing ring or on the wrestling mat. Uh, you're you're paired with a sparring partner, right? And Epictetus says like, you shouldn't bemoan the fact that it's hard. You should say, this is how you become world class. Or he says, this is how you become Olympic class material. It's by having strong sparring partners. So how how do you think about maybe this injury that you're going through? Or just the difficulties you've gone through as your career? Has that made you a more resilient athlete? Or uh, do you not think about it like that?

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I totally think so. It's kind of one of those things that like, you're not going to get better by doing things that are easy. Like, I want to take the hard way. That's when you really build that character. That's when you become resilient is going through tough times. I mean, I dislocated my elbow on the world stage. And like, a lot of people may think like, it would be really easy for me to just, I've done seven times at the games, like, that's good. But instead, I'm like, I'm so excited to get back there because I know that I'm going to be better than I ever was because I my mindset is just so. Like fueled in a way that I want to be better than I was before. This is a perfect time to like fix any other nagging injuries that I've had in the past.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  And just kind of taking those hard circumstances and flipping them into a positive to where I'm going to use this to make me the best athlete that I've ever been.

• 15:21Ryan Holiday?

  So did, let's, let's break all that down. So was there a part of you when you had that injury that like, given what you've done, was there a part of you that thought like, this could be, this is an acceptable career ending injury? Like you're like, I could call it here or does no part of you think that way?

• 15:38Speaker 01

  No, honestly, like that, I feel like a lot of people probably think that, but there was not one second in my mind that I was like, I'm done. It was more like, I mean, they literally popped my elbow in like in the back of the games. And I was like, okay, I'm good. Like, am I going to be okay to compete tomorrow? I'm just the type of like, I'm never going to be finished until I'm like satisfied. And I would never want to go out on a note like that.

• 16:04Ryan Holiday?

  But so I, I interviewed Ryan Shazier, who, who also read my books. He, he had this career ending tackle for the Steelers. Not just a career ending tackle, he was, he was paralyzed by it.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:16Ryan Holiday?

  So, so do you think you could accept a career ending injury? Or would it, would it like break you?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Um, that's kind of one of those things like this is fixable. I can like just let it heal. But if it was a career ending thing like that, obviously like there's nothing you can do about it. At that point, it just kind of is what it is. And I think you would just have to accept it. Although it would be like extremely difficult. I would probably just, I mean, there's nothing you can really do about it.

• 16:44Ryan Holiday?

  No, that would be the challenge, right? Having to now face what life looks like without the thing that's given you so much meaning and structure and satisfaction.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, I mean, I hope that I don't get like, I hope I don't have that situation. But in something like that, I think you just kind of have to like, I think it's important to have balance in your life for things like that. So when your like most important thing to you crumbles in front of you, you have something else to kind of fall back on.

• 17:15Ryan Holiday?

  So. Did the time you've had to spend away from the sport and from training, has it made you appreciate it more? Like, has there been some benefits in that regard?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I kind of think you always think like the grass is greener on the other side. Like, when I'm training for the games, there's like, nothing I want more than just like a little bit of rest. I feel exhausted. I'm like, I can't wait until the games are over with so that I can just relax. And then the minute the games were over with this year, and I was forced into a complete off-season because I physically couldn't do stuff, that's when I was like, wow, I totally took for granted when I was able to do all the training that I could. And it's just kind of one of those things that you need to remember in the moment when things get tough is that like, I don't have to be doing this training. I get to do this training.

• 18:06Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah. And, and when you come back, are there going to be lingering effects from it? Like, are you having to rethink how you do what you do? Or are you going to be back 100% as you were? Or is it to avoid doing this again, you've learned something, or you're changing, you're making some sort of changes?

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Um, I think kind of both. I think like, it's gonna definitely take a while to get back to where I was just because like, I mean, I'm trying to not like be scared of the certain movements that like caused this, but in the back of my head, I'm always like, I don't want this to happen again, but

• 18:38Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 18:39Speaker 01

  It's just, it's gonna take some time to kind of like relearn the patterns again and just strengthen that arm back up, but.

• 18:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that would be so weird, right? It had such a, to not be sort of reticent or hesitant in doing a thing where there's really no room for hesitation.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 18:58Ryan Holiday?

  And yet, if you don't learn from what happened, you're gonna do it again.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the biggest thing I'm taking away from what had happened was I just like, I pushed it too much before the games. Like, I knew that there was an injury in my arm and I just continually practiced on it. I mean, that's probably most people would just be, if you're in like the top of the sport. But, um, yeah, I mean.

• 19:25Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I talk to athletes about that all the time. I'm so fascinated by it because obviously what I do is a little bit lower impact, but I think all high performers have that tendency, which is you push, you wouldn't be where you were if you didn't push past pain or doubts or, you know, warnings. And yet, this can also cost you everything if you can't keep that impulse in check.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I definitely, there's like a fine line right there because in training, you want to be pushing every single day in order to become better. And like, when I'm training and I'm like, I probably shouldn't be doing this because I'm a little bit injured. In the back of my head, I'm like, okay, well, my other competitors are doing it. Like, my other competitors are better right now. And so it's just a fine line of using kind of that in your benefit. Like, maybe when I'm in a really tough workout, I'm in a bad spot and it's hurting really bad to be like, okay, like, Tia wouldn't stop right now. Like, that's when I need to use it, but I need to kind of back up when something's hurting and just kind of be like, okay, well, if I continue to do this, like, I'm not going to be even able to compete.

• 20:39Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Yeah. And, and I imagine the paradox in what you do is like, if there wasn't resistance, if there wasn't pain, you wouldn't be getting stronger. And that, because that's the definition of what weight training is. And yet, if there's too much pain, you won't be able to do it anymore, ever.

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So it's just like a line that you're always like playing with, trying to find the right spot. And, um, yeah, definitely pushed that a little bit too hard.

• 21:08Ryan Holiday?

  All right. So here's Seneca. Seneca has a weird relationship with exercise, but I feel like he might actually be describing CrossFit here. He says, "Now, there are short and simple exercises which tire the body rapidly. And so to save our time, the time is something we should, and time is something we should keep to strict account." So these exercises are running, brandishing weights, and jumping, high jumping and broad jumping. Then he lists a bunch of other weird things which we don't able to translate. But he says, "Select for practice any of these, but whatever you do, come back soon from the body to the mind." I think his point is that, You should, because training, or it shouldn't dominate too much of our time.

• 21:49Ryan Holiday?

  The Stoics were always worried that our physical pursuits would impede on our time to study philosophy. But he was basically saying like, what is the most effective exercise you can do? What has the highest ROI? Just do that and ignore all the fluffy vanity stuff.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, CrossFit is like high intensity work. And when he was describing that, that's kind of what it sounded like was just these movements that will jack your heart rate up extremely, like in a short amount of time. And so that's like basically what CrossFit is. I would say for like the average person, the average person that's doing CrossFit, they just go in for an hour. They get their heart rate up. And like, I mean, that's great. Like you probably, you shouldn't spend too much time on it if you don't have to.

• 22:36Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  But I also think another cool thing just about CrossFit is like, for our sport and like competing for it, we actually like trained for the unknowable. So we go to the competition and we don't know anything that we're gonna, we don't know our workouts. We don't know our events, nothing. So it's just kind of like, I mean.

• 22:56Ryan Holiday?

  At the games, you mean? It's a surprise?

• 22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so when we get to the games, we don't know any workouts. Like every single year, they kind of like throw a new movement at us. So it's kind of like, we are constantly training to be able to do anything that they could throw at us.

• 23:12Ryan Holiday?

  So that is a perfect Stoic thing. So Epictetus says that the whole point of philosophy is to get to a place where something happens and you're able to go, this is exactly what I trained for. Like this is what I prepared for, even though I had no idea this would happen. So how do you think about that? Like, how can you train for what is effectively an unlimited amount of combinations or possibilities?

• 23:42Ryan Holiday?

  How do you do that without neglecting getting really good at core things?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I mean, I mean, honestly, in training, we do a lot of like the physical stuff. It's like we basically do everything that we could ever imagine that will come up. But I think the big thing is being able to handle the adversity. Like, we don't know what's going to be thrown at us. And a lot of that can be like a mental head case when you get to the games. And you see something that you've never done before and you're like, oh crap, like, how am I going to do this? But instead, like, if you're very mentally tough and just prepared, you just look at it and you're like, okay, well, I'm fit, like, I'll be able to do this. I will just do it to the best that I can. You have to kind of remember, like, um, no one, none of the other athletes have done this before either. So even though I might be feeling a little timid towards it, like, I'm not the only one.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  And it's just kind of, it's, it's honestly more of a mental game, not knowing what's coming than it is physical.

• 24:37Ryan Holiday?

  Do you find that, like, you can feel when, like, they all, you all come up on the thing? Can you just feel the energy of the people who are like befuddled or frustrated or thrown off by something?

• 24:50Speaker 01

  I mean, reading body language is huge. Also, like, there's a lot of people that are just, I guess they just don't understand the mental side of it. And they will be complaining in the back before we go out, you know, like, it's just, you can pick up on these little things that you're just kind of like, okay, well, they're out, like, already got, I already beat them before they, it even started because they're just so all over the place mentally.

• 25:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I would imagine the most dangerous thing you could, you could think before uh, a situation like that would be, I hope they don't have X.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 25:25Ryan Holiday?

  Because that's exactly what they're gonna have, and then you'll be deflated when that's there.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, just like a little side story, um, in the 2019 Games, they started doing these cuts. And it was the final cut. I'd been in the top 10 the whole time, they were cutting down to the final 10. And, um, all I needed to do was not step on this line. So if you stepped on a line, it was a sprint. If you stepped on the line, you were disqualified. I was like, okay, all I have to do to get through this and get to the top 10 is not step on this. And what do I do? I stepped on the line because it's all that I was.

• 26:01Ryan Holiday?

  It's in your mind.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yes. And so moving forward from that, at the time, it was like the end of the world. But um, I was just, I learned, like, I was focusing way too much on what I was not supposed to be doing.

• 26:15Ryan Holiday?

  Right. And I, and, and so how do you, like, what's your, what's your mindset going into an event? That has so many unknowns, like what you're just like, I accept all of it. I'm open to all of it. Or do you think like, I, I know there's going to be these core things. I'm just going to crush it in those things and I'll wing it on the rest. Like, what do you take into that uncertainty?

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, I definitely have my strengths, obviously. So I'm always trying to like, um, do the best that I can on those. But then the things that I like, um, am not prepared for, like, don't know that are coming. I just kind of like, take off the expectation. I like, release the pressure. I try to go into it. Like not already like putting a ton of pressure myself to do awesome. It's just kind of one of those things that's like, if you're good at it, then you're good at it. And if you're not, then you're not. Let's just like, do this and continue on. Just kind of like, I try not to put emotions into it. Like, I don't want to be like nervous or sad when it doesn't go well. It's like, let's just do it and then move on.

• 27:21Ryan Holiday?

  And the stones talk about just having no opinion, like you always have the ability to just not have an opinion. So is that's you're, you're just like, and, and it's funny when the stones talk about being indifferent. They don't mean you don't care. They just mean like, you're good either way, right? Like, like.

• 27:37Speaker 01

  I'm not going to waste my energy on these emotions. I'm just gonna like, do what the task at hand and the best so that I can and not overthink it.

• 27:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, to go back to Tom Brady, it's like when you play in New England, you don't give a shit about the weather anymore because like it can't possibly be as bad as the worst weather that you've experienced. So like, whereas if you play in, I don't know, LA now, you're so spoiled.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:04Ryan Holiday?

  That then when you, when you have to go play in Kansas City in the winter, or Buffalo in the winter, or New York in the winter, you have an opinion, right? You would prefer that it not be snowy and rainy and cold. Whereas the quarterback who's, and I think sometimes Tom Brady will do this, this is more when he was in New England, but you'll see that the, the quarterbacks like go out in a short sleeve shirt, like in warm up, in warmups, just to send the message that like, I don't care about the weather.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, totally. I think that kind of comes like, that happens with training too. Like, we always want to train in like our worst conditions because if we're training when things are going really bad or we're really tired, like all the worst things that could happen are happening to us. Then once we get to the competition, hopefully it'll essentially be more like easier than it was in training. And so we'll just excel there.

• 28:58Ryan Holiday?

  Right, yeah, you're training, you're training with the headwind or you're, you're training with the weights. So then when the weight is removed, you're, which it hopefully is, you're good. But you're used to it doing it under worse circumstances.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:13Ryan Holiday?

  So one of the other early Stoic Olympic events, or an Olympic event that a Stoic participated in, I'm forgetting exactly how you pronounce it, but Chrysippus was a, was a distance runner. And so I assumed like, okay, so he runs three miles, five miles, but you know, some, or maybe the marathon. But I was reading, he does, he competed in this special kind of event. And it was, it was basically three miles of wind sprints. So you ran three miles of stadium length sprint. So back and forth, back and forth. And you touch the line, come back, you touch the line. And I was just thinking about, like, you know, running three miles, that's hard in competition on its own.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:52Ryan Holiday?

  But I could just imagine where your lungs would get doing short distance sprints for an extended distance.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:05Ryan Holiday?

  And I figured you would relate to that experience because that's what CrossFit is, right? CrossFit never says like, go run five miles. CrossFit always has you do it in some insanely short distance burst that gets you to like your anaerobic thresholds and then slow, you know what I mean? I just thought you would, you would appreciate that as a, as a, as a, as an event.

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. I feel like those are kind of type of things that we do in CrossFit is just like kind of events. If you can make the events worse, then like they will and they'll go up. That'll just go three miles, like one distance will just make it harder. That is kind of like what we do in CrossFit and that's just something that you always have to prepare for.

• 30:49Ryan Holiday?

  Right, they would never have you run three miles. They would have you run three miles in 100 yard sprints with a 10 second rest between or something.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 30:59Ryan Holiday?

  So what do you do when you get to that point where your body says like, this is literally like, this is not possible. You cannot keep doing this. And then you look at the scoreboard and you have like a mile and a half left to go or 25 reps left to go or 75 yards left in this farmer's carry. Like, how do you push past that?

• 31:19Speaker 01

  So that's actually, I used to have this like mantra and it's like, this is when it counts. So it's kind of that mindset that like, the beginning of this workout doesn't matter. Like the first, let's say you have a 10 minute workout. The first five minutes, they don't really count. They aren't, they aren't hard for anyone. They're like the easy minutes. It's all about when things get hard, like are you going to be able to push? So that's kind of like what I've always thought to myself is like, this is when it counts. This is what you train for. And so I try to put myself in those positions like in practice so that when it comes to a big stage that I'm prepared for how tough it gets.

• 32:02Ryan Holiday?

  So do you, do you have to sort of, and David Goggins does talk about this, is sort of the idea that like, your body's a liar, right? Like when your body says you're done, you're like 40% done.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Totally. I think it's just completely a mind game. Um, I don't know the exact saying, but it's always like your mind is gonna give up before your body does. So I of- I often tell myself that during workouts. So like, this is just my mind talking. It's not my body. So it's always like, what are you gonna listen to in your head? Are you gonna listen to the voice that's telling you to stop? Or are you gonna listen to the voice that's like cheering you on and like pushing you towards the finish?

• 32:41Ryan Holiday?

  So I remember seeing your post when you got hurt. You said something like, this was God's plan. I'm just curious, as someone who's not particularly religious, how do you know when it's God's plan? And when it just is something that sucks?

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I just think I'm very religious, so I think that God has a plan for everything. And so if he's telling me that like, uh, this is what's gonna happen, and this is what's gonna happen, I'm gonna try to use this to, um, just like better myself, like coming like in the future, you know? It was just kind of like, um, this wasn't my time to shine in his eyes. So let's just, um, call it a year and then try again next year.

• 33:22Ryan Holiday?

  But I mean, obviously you think that like, uh, there's also mistakes that we make, right? So what if the injury had been your fault? Is that still part of the plan? I guess I'm just wondering, how do you think about like, sort of where responsibility and sort of providence? Like, where is that line?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not exactly sure like where that line is. It was just kind of like the way things that happened, like, it's not like, um, something's minor happened and it caught me out. Like, I completely, my elbow was in my bicep. Like, it was, like, there's nothing I could do about it, you know? So that's kind of when it's like, okay, well, this is bigger than me at this point. And so I'm just gonna hand it over to him and, and like, call it.

• 34:06Ryan Holiday?

  And I mean, that is something the Stoics talk about. They have this word ascent, not like ascent up a mountain, but A S S E N T, which basically is acceptance, but not like resignation. It's acceptance like, yes, this is the plan. Something or someone or fate or whatever it is chose that for me. Like the Stoic image is that we're like dogs tied to a cart and the cart is just sort of going along and the dog can like lay down and be dragged or the dog can sort of cheerfully trot alongside. But either way, like the dog is going where the cart is going.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:44Ryan Holiday?

  Right? And that's kind of, maybe that's how you think about it. I'd be curious to hear, but it's the idea that's like, I can accept it or I can fight it, but it still happens. So it is what it is.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think everything happens for a reason. That's how I kind of just view things. And so it was just kind of one of those moments and just moving on.

• 35:11Ryan Holiday?

  Have you read, do you know who Kate Bowler is?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:15Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, you would love her. I had her on the podcast, but she, she's a Christian. She had this aggressive form of cancer and she was talking about how many nice, nice people would come to her and say, everything happens for a reason. And she would say, well, I'd really like to hear what the reason is, you know? And so her book is called Everything Happens For A Reason and the subtitle is something like, like Things You Should Never Say To People With Cancer or whatever. But, but it is, it is funny, right? Because like, we, we say, it's, it's easy to say everything happens to a reason, even with something as hard as an injury that

• 35:57Ryan Holiday?

  could take away your career. And then we also accept there's sort of a level of shittiness above that, that it's really hard to accept.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think also, like, I always try to put like a positive spin on things that happen. There's no sense of wasting time, like being upset and like, that's just time wasted and like the energy wasted being sad instead of like trying to make things better, you know? So I just try to look at it like that. Not waste time on the negative and just try to turn it into a positive.

• 36:32Ryan Holiday?

  So what's interesting about your sport is how I think intertwined it is with social media. Right. There's probably professional athletes who are on, you know, national television on a regular basis, who have fewer Instagram followers than you do, right? It's such an engaged sport, I think, because it's new and it sort of came along with these things. And that was like the, because CrossFit wasn't on television for a while. That's where they built, I'm curious, like, how do you deal with the spotlight and the attention? I've got to imagine a good chunk of it as a female athlete. A lot of the attention is the kind of attention that one does not want.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think it's always just important to like focus on like what matters to you. And to me, that's just being the best athlete that I can. And the social media just kind of comes along with that. I love social media because like just the CrossFit community side of it. I think that's why it has like all CrossFit athletes have like a pretty big following is because CrossFit is so like tight knit with the community and CrossFit is like one of those sports that everyone can do it, you know, like it's very scalable, but they can watch it and do it too. So yeah, I think just kind of like focusing on like becoming the best athlete that you can be

• 37:54Speaker 01

  instead of like trying to get the freaking Instagram angles and like the things that people like essentially follow, because there's a huge, we did like a, Noble did a

• 38:08Speaker 01

  campaign on it a couple of years back and it was not just an influencer. Basically saying like, yes, we do have a lot of following, but it's not because we're influencers. It's because we're athletes and like we work very hard for that.

• 38:21Ryan Holiday?

  Right. My wife follows his account and she shows it to me sometimes. And basically that it's like screenshots, it's sort of like comments from celebrities, but it's like screenshots of men mansplaining how to lift weights to professional like female athletes. And it's like the funniest thing that I've ever seen because it's like everyone, it's like opinions are like assholes. Everyone has them, but they think they should definitely share them with women.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's like, I mean, stereotypically, like, guys are the ones that lift. But I think it's becoming more and more common that, like, girls are all, um, also into lifting and, like, strong is becoming more, like, less rare. So, um, I think that that's really cool and, like, I just want to use my social, um, my social media to just be like a good influence on, like, other girls and especially, like, young girls to show them that, like, it's not just for boys.

• 39:17Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I think because the sport is new, um, it doesn't have, like, a hundred years of sex segregation built into it or a hundred and fifty years of stereotypes. It's like, everyone kind of was able to get in on the ground floor of the sport. So I almost feel like a bunch of the female CrossFit stars are more famous than the male counters, male counterparts. Um, kind of like women's soccer, actually, in America.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's probably just because it's, like, not as usual to see girls, um, like, that fit. And I think that's very, like, one of the cool parts about it. Like, CrossFit's always been, like, everyone gets paid the same at the Games and, like, things like that that just make it very, like, unisex, you know?

• 40:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, that's, that's really cool because then you, then you actually see what is possible, not just what's possible within, like, what, what would, what would the, uh, the, the women's, uh, uh,

• 40:15Ryan Holiday?

  basketball tournament look like if they got to play in the same venues? Like, you know, you saw that photo a couple of years ago where they're like, this is the women's college, uh, weight room and it was like ten gumbells.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so I, yeah, I, I hate that, like, sports are like that, uh, male versus female. And so I think that's another reason why, like, girls are so big into CrossFit.

• 40:37Ryan Holiday?

  And, and do, in, in the Games, i- is it still actually segregated by sex in the competition or is it like a free for all?

• 40:44Speaker 01

  Yes, it's still, like, segregated, guys against guys, girls against girls.

• 40:48Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Yeah, it is, it is crazy, uh, how.

• 40:54Ryan Holiday?

  How we, um, we, we like, it doesn't, I mean, it doesn't really matter, right? Performance should be performance and yet we like try to sort of put it in these strange categories.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. But when it comes to like weightlifting, like it's just a little bit different because guys are a lot stronger, you know? But it's still fun. Like one of my training partners, I train with a male every single day and it's just like, I mean, it's super fun to be competitive because we're still going after the same thing.

• 41:23Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I wanted to ask you about that because I know Ben a little bit and I saw you, you switched coaches. Um, and I, I read your post about it. I'm, I'm not so much interested in like,

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Ryan Holiday?

  Why you switched or what your new coaches, but how do you like, I imagine that must've been an agonizingly difficult decision.

• 41:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:41Ryan Holiday?

  And like, how did you make a decision like that? Because it's the same when Tiger Woods decides to switch his caddy or his swing coach, or uh, when, when somebody decides to switch teams, like these are really difficult decisions that they're extremely risky in the sense that like it is working or you wouldn't be where you are. How do you make the decision to go towards the unknown new thing that might have more upside versus sticking with what's comfortable and?

• 42:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say is that it's extremely difficult because it's such a big change. Like we are so comfortable with what we have. Um, I knew that like changing coaches, it would like, it would be completely different. He is gonna have a different way of doing everything. I'm so used to the way that Ben had done it. And like, I mean, I was a good athlete. Um, but when the opportunity was presented to me to train with the number one athlete who has won the games the past five years and essentially be coached by her husband, who was her coach, it's like, I really had to sit back and think like, is this gonna be what's best for me?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  And so even though things are gonna be hard, and I mean, it was very challenging to kind of like trust a new coach when I was so ground in the way that I did things before. Um. But I almost just like went with my gut, I knew that it was the best thing for me.

• 43:08Ryan Holiday?

  Is it, is it kind of invigorating though to like have to figure out a new way to do it? Like to not be, I mean, I imagine there's something comforting about being in the groove. This is the way I've done it my whole career. This is how Ben and I set it up, blah, blah, blah. And then being, having to wrestle kind of with the lack of control and lack of familiarity with like envisioning a new way of doing it or having to follow somebody else's system?

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was extremely scary, just like jumping from one program to another program. But I was just so confident in my new coach.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  That I really, I didn't worry too much about whether, like, say I was doing something different. I wasn't too worried about that because I just knew that I was in really good hands.

• 43:51Ryan Holiday?

  But it keeps it interesting, right? It's sort of what I'm saying is like, uh, there's, it's, it's nice when some of that stuff proceeds into the background, but it's also like when you move to a new place. You're suddenly, your eyes and your senses are operating at a heightened capacity because you're not just like used to tuning everything around you out.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think it's just that like change is hard, like it's very, change is scary. And so going about a different way of doing things was definitely something that like didn't sit well with me for a while. But you just kind of like continually like start trusting more and more into like the new change that you have. And then, I mean, most of the time it's probably for the best.

• 44:32Ryan Holiday?

  Did you think about what the downsides of it could be? I think that's what, what keeps a lot of people from making changes is like, what if I, what if I make a mistake? What if, uh, people criticize me? What if we don't get along? Like, how, how did you think through the downsides to then still have the sort of courage to make the jump?

• 44:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's always going to be like downsides that like creep into your head the whole time. Like, I mean, it was just, it was constantly like fighting with myself. Like, is this a good decision for me? Um, like, what if I don't get better? What if this is, the next thing doesn't work well for me?

• 45:12Speaker 01

  I I think you just kind of have to measure the pros and cons. And I mean, if the if the pro side is way bigger than like, you're just gonna have to like, feel out like if it makes the cons worth it, you know?

• 45:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, one of the things I think about is like, is is the change the hard thing or the easy thing? Right? So it's like,

• 45:33Ryan Holiday?

  if, like, I remember when I when I was actually just selling this series of books that I did, I was I I was thinking about maybe shopping it around to different publishers. I've done all my books with the same publisher. And I kept sort of trying to go back and forth. It's like, am I am I try? Am I thinking about leaving because I think it will be easier to do it this other way? Or am I thinking about staying because it would be easier? And I wanted to go towards like, the harder thing, if that makes sense?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. No, I totally agree with that. Like, I think any change is going to be like harder at first because it's different. I mean, I think I'm just kind of like beating a dead cow here, but um, I think, yeah, change is just scary.

• 46:15Ryan Holiday?

  Well, because like sometimes an athlete will say like, leave one team because they're like, this coach is hard on me. And if I go over here, I'll get what I want, right? Like, it's like, I guess that's the question is like, is one switching? Because the they don't like how the person is holding them accountable, you know, they're tired of like, they're tired of being pushed in a certain way. Like, is it because one is becoming more entitled as an athlete? Or as a performer? Or is it because one is refusing to be satisfied? As a performer, as an athlete? And that's like the critical distinction.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think ultimately, like,

• 46:53Speaker 01

  I mean, I had my, I I knew that I wanted to be with Shane from like, it's just something that I've always dreamed of doing because he's incredible coach. But another aspect is just like having been, I knew that I was gonna have Shane in person every day. So when I was with Ben, it was like, he was in Boston, I was in Nashville. So it was just kind of like, it worked, but like, could it be better? Yes. So having someone to keep me accountable every single day, like watching me, being hard on me, making sure that I'm doing everything to the best of my ability is like, I'm always gonna choose that option.

• 47:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, well, it's an investment in sort of. Getting even more serious about what you do.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Ryan Holiday?

  And being more hands-on about what you do, I imagine.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then, I mean, there's also the aspect that like, I'm now training with Tia, who is a five-time champ, and it's like, a lot of people would probably be scared to train with her because they're gonna be, get beat every single day. But I think that if you're not, if someone is not better than you in the room, then you need to change rooms. Because I always want to be pushed to like, the best that I can, and that's the only way to get better.

• 47:59Ryan Holiday?

  So you guys both training under a coach and then competing with each other? Is that weird?

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think that was one of the hesitations when we first started, was that, I mean, obviously, like, not only is Shane Tia's coach, but they're married. So they kind of were like, we don't want you to ever feel like you're the second best. And I have never felt like that. We got, um...

• 48:23Ryan Holiday?

  That doesn't seem to me like a feeling you have very often.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  No. Honestly, no. But, um, I mean, they even like, set me up with like, an additional coach to make sure that like, when it comes time for competition, like Shane's gonna be with Tia, I have my other guy, Nick. And so, um, just kind of like figuring out what works for you is important.

• 48:44Ryan Holiday?

  And then, um, I saw you got a dog recently. How's that changed your life?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. It's awesome. I literally picked him up yesterday. It's been super fun. I've been wanting a dog for a really long time, but it's just kind of one of those things that like, I wasn't really ready for the responsibility. Um, not that it's gonna be like, that much of a responsibility, but, um, I'm just so career-focused and driven. I'm like, is this dog gonna take like, 1% away from my training, you know?

• 49:09Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  So it's, I got it at a good time to where, um, I mean, it's November, I don't start competing until about March, so have a few months to get him trained and like, hopefully bring him to the gym and stuff.

• 49:27Ryan Holiday?

  But maybe it will take your focus off of training, but in a slightly positive way. So like you can leave the gym and go home and not be still at the gym.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, totally agree with that, too. That's another like reason I was so excited to get him is just like, I mean, when I'm not at the gym, I don't want to think about training and stuff. I've always been that type. Like, I'm not even very good at like typing my results at night from like the day. Because when I'm at the gym, I'm at the gym. When I'm at home, I'm at home. So it's like, um, it's gonna be great to just kind of focus my energy somewhere else.

• 50:03Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like, uh, balance is very hard when what you do is inherently unbalanced.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I've always heard this saying, like, if you want to be the best, then you're not gonna have balance.

• 50:16Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Speaker 01

  Which I think it's like, it is kind of true, but I also think that like, if you're constantly stressing over training and not having any sort of balance where you can just go like shut off, that's also gonna mess with you mentally.

• 50:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, I found that with having kids, like, I think the fear as a writer is that you have kids and now your work is not your only focus or your only obsession. And that's true, but it's, it may well be a positive because your obsession was, uh, probably not fully healthy and also not, um,

• 50:55Ryan Holiday?

  not, not, uh, actually as productive as you thought it was. Like, when you're obsessing about it all the time and you're whipping yourself about it and it's all that you live and breathe, like, by definition, you're gonna take all of it way too seriously. And it's gonna suck some of the fun and joy and also, uh, success out of it because it's, it's just, it just looms too large in your life.

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think that can be with like anything in life, but with CrossFit, we're training like eight hours a day. So if I'm like, Training eight hours a day and then constantly thinking about it, I'm gonna burn out really quickly.

• 51:32Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Longevity is very important in any career or like, whatever you're doing in your life is just like, you don't want to only be able to do it for a short amount of time. So I think just having like balance to even you out a little bit is very important.

• 51:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I had Bob Bowman on the podcast who is Michael Phelps swim coach. And you just, I mean, he's, he's obviously one of the most successful swimmers of all time. But he has this middle period where he just comes to hate swimming because he's not like taking care of himself. And it's also a grind of a sport that just, you know, you're just staring at this line underwater for hours and hours on end. It's horrible. Like without, without something else that keeps you going or gives you joy. It's almost as if all your skill and drive like it, it turns against itself and it starts making the thing you love, the thing you hate.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that's a really important thing to remember is that like, I always do my best competing or whatever when I'm having fun. Like my best years have been when I've really enjoyed the sport. So like little things like having a fun training group around you, like, I don't know, listening to like fun music, just whatever you can do to kind of like enjoy what you're doing more is very important. Obviously there's those times where you need to like, really like grind and like be super like mentally tough, but it's just like, enjoy it when you can.

• 53:02Ryan Holiday?

  Well, that, that has been my experience getting to know a number of professional athletes. And it's been helpful and sort of balancing for me is you, you're like, this person has a game that millions of people are going to be watching in five hours. And they're having a totally normal lunch, you know, with, with a person right now about, you know, in my case, like about ancient philosophy that you need if it's like, because you take it very seriously. If, if, if that isn't balanced out or doesn't have other avenues, eventually it kind of turns toxic. And the, so it's like, if the people who are best in the world at what they do, are able to, to have fun and have other hobbies or other interests.

• 53:46Ryan Holiday?

  The idea that you can't do those things because you're too busy or important or whatever is just a lie you're telling yourself.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, yeah, that just comes back to like, I just like you need some kind of like distraction and you don't need to be like sitting in your room right before you're about to compete or some big moment just like thinking about it like you need to like rest your mind and um and I just think that's kind of when balance comes into play.

• 54:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and like let's say, let's say that wasn't true and that actually the way to get one percent better was to be completely joyless and obsessed and like aggressive and like would that be worth it? You know what I mean? Like, let's say you get it, but it also makes it functionally impossible for you to enjoy getting it? That doesn't sound like a good trade.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, yeah, that's a huge, that's a great point. Um, I think that like, like if I were ever win the CrossFit Games, but I was miserable doing it when I got to that point, it like, well, was that worth it? Like, probably not. Do I like enjoy? Like, I think that a big part of like your accomplishments are looking back on the process that like got you there. So if you're not enjoying it and you're not having fun, then like you're doing something wrong and it's not going to be rewarding when you get to that point.

• 55:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's like you got into whatever the thing was because you enjoyed it.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:11Ryan Holiday?

  And so, uh, if succeeding at it sucks the joy out of the thing, it might be externally recognized success, but I think we would all accept that there's something wrong with that if that's what winning is. Like when I watched the Michael Jordan documentary, I was like, I'm not sure it was that fun to be Michael Jordan.

• 55:34Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I think happiness, like I would choose happiness over success for sure. It's just kind of like, um, like, why would you do something if you got no joy out of it when?

• 55:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Well, and that there's like a very healthy middle ground, right? It's like, I don't know if I would choose, uh, uh, choose to fail miserably if that meant happiness, or although miserable is a contradiction, but I, I, I don't know if it's possible to be happy repeatedly failing at what you do and being like the worst at it. But it's like, you meet, you meet people who are. It's like you meet people who are champions or extremely successful at what they do. And you're like, oh, and they're having a good time. They might not be the most recognizable in the world at that thing. But maybe that's actually the point that they, there's a line in one of Steven Pressfield's books I love. Have you ever read his stuff?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  No, I haven't.

• 56:33Ryan Holiday?

  But you would love, you would love The War of Arts, or he has this novel called Gates of Fire. That's amazing. But in one of them, this philosopher is talking to Alexander the Great. And Alexander the Great says, you know, like, I have conquered the world. What have you ever done? And he says, I have conquered the need to conquer the world. And, and that that's sort of in some ways, the higher accomplishment to be able to go like, this is really important to me, but it's not everything to me.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, even just training with Tia, she's one of, I've talked about her a lot. She's my training partner and she's won the Games five times. And training with her, I thought like, this is going to be like brutally serious, like no joking. Like, it's just going to be.

• 57:20Ryan Holiday?

  Like being in the room with Kobe Bryant and he's just like berating you.

• 57:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought it was going to be this super intense, like no fun kind of thing. And it was the complete opposite. Like, we have so much fun during training and it's just kind of like, it's another sign that like, in order to be successful, you don't have to be miserable all the time. Like, you can make these things fun.

• 57:42Ryan Holiday?

  Is that maybe why she's had sustained success, you think? Like, maybe being, maybe it being no fun is how you get there once. But it's not how you build a, a career that you can continue.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. It's actually funny. She said that like her, after her fourth game, or after her fourth win, she was probably going to call it like her last year. But then she continued like having fun. And now she's like doing another year and another year. And it's, um, yeah, it's just one of those things like. In order to be successful, you're gonna have to have some kind of passion doing what you're doing. Or it's just like, it's not gonna be worth it and it's not gonna be long term.

• 58:23Ryan Holiday?

  So, so where, where are you trying to end up as we, as we wrap up the interview? Like what does like you looking back on a career that went well for you? What is that, what does that look like? How, how do you define like, I accomplished all that I wanted to accomplish? Or I, I did it right, maybe not even accomplished, because that, that, that is emphasizing specific external things. For you to look back and go, I did it well, or it went well, what does that look like to you?

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Um, I never try to put like some kind of placement on like, I need to podium or I need to win the games. Like, that's not what it's about to me. I just wanna continue like getting better. And once I feel like I have reached my maximum potential, then that's when I wanna like, be like, okay, I'm satisfied with what I did, I did the best that I could. I put every single thing that I had into this sport and like, I'm happy with that. And I also just wanna continue like enjoying it. Like, the minute that I'm not having fun doing what I'm doing is the minute that I'm not gonna be doing it anymore. So.

• 59:31Ryan Holiday?

  So I think often though, people use the external accomplishments as a proxy for whether I did everything I'm capable of doing. If it's not that, how do you know? Like, how do you know that you reached your potential?

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I think that's kind of hard to like, uh, it's hard to know when you've reached your potential. But I think that if I'm just like continuing to get better and better and better and then maybe like say, I like start feeling myself, well, I think it's just like doing everything that I can. Like each year adding something in new, like in order to make myself better, just. Continuing to do that. First I said, I just want to get 10 years of the games and then I'll be done. But if I'm still having fun after 10 years, like I'm going to continue competing. It's just something that I love to do. I'm very passionate about it.

• 1:00:18Ryan Holiday?

  Well, 10 years is just an arbitrary number. It's not based on anything, right? So I totally agree. People sometimes ask me like, you know, is there a certain number of books you want to write? Or sell or whatever. And I almost feel like that's kind of artificially limiting. Because what like, I don't think, I don't think it's, I don't think a specific number means anything. It should be that you did all that you were capable of doing. And then you stopped before it was harmful or something.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I totally agree. Uh, yeah, like why 10? Just because it's like a 10, you know?

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  So yeah, I just want to continue doing it as long as I am like enjoying it. And um, I think a big, another big thing is like, I just want to inspire others to like, be their best self, as cliche as that sounds like, it's just um, important to me to be a good inspiration to others.

• 1:01:15Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I often hear like the numbers that people have, it's not even like arbitrary, like 10, because it's a round number. It's like, because they heard somebody else did nine.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:24Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like, so it's like inherently based on competition that they just pulled out of their ass. It's like they heard so and so sold a million or so and so did this. And that, that's like, again, so limiting that you should be trying to do the most or the best that you are capable of doing, which might be higher than that, or it might be lower than that. But it should be that, not uh, just some benchmark that you pulled off of an article or a Wikipedia page or something.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Right. I feel like everyone's just so competitive these days, like comparing yourself to other people. And that's something that like, I don't want to do.

• 1:01:58Ryan Holiday?

  Right.

• 1:01:59Speaker 01

  Do it as long as I want to do it, not as long as someone else has.

• 1:02:03Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I hope you get to do it as long as you want to do it and uh, not, nothing else gets to decide whether you keep doing it. That, to go back to our conversation about injuries, that, that's always the thing hovering above all of it, as the Stoics say, which is that, you know, sort of fate behaves as she pleases and uh, sometimes uh, doesn't really care about what we want.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:27Ryan Holiday?

  Well, lovely. This was so fun. I'm really glad we got to talk.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you so much for having me on.

• 1:02:32Ryan Holiday?

  Go play with your dog.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Okay, well, it was great to meet you.

• 1:02:35Ryan Holiday?

  All right, I'll see you later.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  See ya.

• 1:02:39Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks for listening to the Daily Stoic Podcast. Just a reminder, we've got signed copies of all my books in the Daily Stoic store. You can get them personalized, you can get them sent to a friend, whatever you want. We'd love for you to have a copy. I know I love signed copies of some of my favorite books. If you love a signed copy of The Obstacle is the Way, You Go as the Enemy, Stillness is the Key, the leather bound edition of the Daily Stoic, we have them all in the Daily Stoic store, which you can check out at store.dailystoic.com.