Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean Spooky Special... Liv's Favourite F--ked Up Family (aka Must Not Eat Children, Part 1) About this episode Happy spooooky season! It's about time we revisit the most HORRIFYING and GORY play Liv's ever read... Seneca's Thyestes, the play whose only woman character is a goddess of vengeance. These episodes originally aired in October 2023. Tantalus' cursed grandsons are about to f**k things up. Help keep LTAMB going by subscribing to Liv's Patreon for bonus content! http://www.patreon.com/mythsbaby
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Seneca's Thyestes, primarily the version translation by Emily Wilson with long passages quoted from the Frank Justus Miller https://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html; Hyginus' Fabulae https://topostext.org/work/206.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here: mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand).
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Transcript 12,348 words · 4 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.
0:41 Speaker 01 At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone and including dental, vision and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save, too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage HMO and PPO organization with a Medicare contract enrollment. Any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.
1:40 Liv Albert? Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I, no, I'm your host Liv and it, you guys, it's October. It's spooky season. Now, does it feel like October in this fiery hellscape that is the GTA? No, it's been 29 degrees in Toronto for the past few days. I don't know how one gets into a spooky season when it is the temperature of the sun outside. Um, anyway, generative AI uses more water and power than almost anything else.
2:24 Liv Albert? And if I have any listeners who are regularly using generative AI, I just want you to know. I want you to know that every time you make a funny little image or you ask ChatGPT something that Google could tell you easily, you're flushing liters and liters and liters of water
2:44 Liv Albert? through a system that's just cooling a big supercomputer that is literally just feeding you back stuff that already exists on the internet.
2:55 Liv Albert? Anyway, climate change is real and AI is one of the worst things for it. But what I'm really here to say is that it's spooky season. It's spooky season, okay? I'm sorry, I made it all about generative AI. I literally don't know how to exist without being mad about how terrible everything is. But here we are. So here's the thing about spooky season. I've been doing this show for nine years. That's unhinged. This is, is that math? Whatever. Eight, it's the eighth year, the ninth year of spooky season? Don't make me figure it out. Um, and what that means is that I have, to a degree, I have exhausted most, if not all,
3:37 Liv Albert? stories from the ancient world that I think I can jam into the category of spooky season. Um, I have every intention of spending as much time as possible in the future, um, finding what else I can create for spooky season because we're not done. However, this month I am dragging myself to the finish line of adapting The Odyssey for Children, which is, again, consuming my entire existence. So we're doing something a little different. And by that, I mean, we're doing the same thing I've been doing for a little while, which is that I'm going to play you some stuff that I've done in the past.
4:19 Liv Albert? But again, but this time it's different because I'm telling you about it. Um, this whole month, Michaela and I are going to be coming to you with some of our favorite moments from past spooky season episodes, or favorite episodes, or what have you. We've been talking about it and we're going to record some special sort of like introductions and things around this content so that you're getting new stuff and you're re-listening to these old stories that you probably haven't heard in a while because even if you are one of the incredible people who has listened to all of my episodes, there are 700 plus of them. So I don't know, it just seems right, you know? But specifically today and tomorrow, because this one has two, a special bonus, I don't
5:01 Liv Albert? know. Um, I'm bringing you what I consider to be one of the most like life-changing experiences I've had doing this podcast. I mean, this one's life-changing in like the silly kind of way, which frankly is what I need right now because serious life-changing stuff is too real. Um, but I, I don't remember how I decided I was going to dive into reading this Roman tragedian Seneca's work. Uh, I started with his Medea. And you know, probably because I just needed more Medea as I am want to do. And I just remember reading Seneca's Medea and thinking like, holy shit.
5:42 Liv Albert? You know, I already love Euripides' Medea for how visceral and violent and, and just like powerful it is. Um, and then Seneca's was like, what if we made it fucking unhinged? Um, and then I found out that Seneca also wrote a play called Thyestes. And if you know anything about me, and me and spooky season, but just, just me, is that I am fucking obsessed with the curse on the house of Atrius, also known as the
6:24 Liv Albert? curse of the Pelopidae, also known as the curse of the Tantalids because this family.
6:33 Liv Albert? Has been so cursed for so many generations and I'm here for it. I absolutely love this ridiculously cursed family. Their utter fuckery brings me so much joy. I mean, this one specifically, fine, kids get eaten, spoilers, that part's terrible.
6:52 Liv Albert? But how it happened, wow, it's art, it's art. And that's the difference between, you know, appreciating what physically happens in a story and appreciating the way that it is told. This play is wild. Because the story of Thyestes is wild. Now Thyestes is a brother of Atrius, the uncle of Agamemnon and Menelaus. And so in my development of the Odyssey for kids, which by the way is gonna be fucking awesome. Um, in addition to being so much work, my cats are just making noise in the background. I'm not gonna cut it out, you're fine. Um, I, you know, one of the things that really stands out to me is like, there is so much kind of reference to this family in the Odyssey, right?
7:33 Liv Albert? Like Odysseus is trying to get home to Penelope and for him, and then also for the other people on the periphery, like his son Telemachus, and even in the underworld, like this running theme throughout the Odyssey is that, you know, there is an alternative of what can happen to you when you reach home after a 10 years long war. And that alternative is Agamemnon, which is that he goes home to Mycenae and gets killed by his wife and his cousin and who, it's, it's, you know, obviously a delightful moment in Greek mythology, because who likes Agamemnon anyway?
8:16 Liv Albert? But the wider story of how his family became so cursed, oh, that's where we get Thyestes. Because Agamemnon, of course, in the Odyssey, or rather referenced in the Odyssey, because it's something that happened years earlier. Agamemnon is killed by Clytemnestra, his wife, and Agisthus, his cousin. And Agisthus is the son of a man named Thyestes. And Agisthus had brothers. But they died before he was born and you're about to hear how that happened, because this family is so fucked up. And I think about them all the time, because I just find it utterly delightful. But also, I couldn't jam this much backstory, let alone this much horror and gore.
9:01 Liv Albert? Into a book on The Odyssey for eight-year-olds. So instead, you all get to hear it again. These episodes aired two years ago, so I hope they're feeling fresh. They are some of the most fun episodes that I've done, and I'm so excited to play them again. These are one of those things where like, I play them again, I mean, one, because it allows me to write The Odyssey, but also because like, I've already done it, but it's so good that I want to do it again, and since I can't just do this one again, like, there are some times where that's valid. This is not one of them, it was done two years ago, it's really, really in-depth. But you need to hear it again, because lots of you haven't, and I just, you need to. Because it's incredible.
9:44 Liv Albert? And also, it starts with a stage that just features a ghost of Tantalus and a goddamn fury.
10:02 Liv Albert? Onward, damned shade, and goad your sinful house to madness. Let there be rivalry in guilt of every kind. Let the sword be drawn on this side and on that. Let their passions know no bounds, no shame. Let blind fury prick on their souls. Heartless be parents' rage, and to children's children let the long trail of sin lead down. Let time be given to none to hate old sins. Ever let new arise, many in one, and let crime, even amidst its punishment, increase.
10:44 Liv Albert? From haughty brothers' hands let kingdoms fall, and in turn let them call back the fugitives.
10:51 Liv Albert? Let the wavering fortune of a home of violence amidst changing kings totter to its fall. From power to wretchedness, from wretchedness to power, may this befall and may chance with her ever restless waves bear the kingdom on. For crime's sake, exiled, when gods shall bring them home, to crime may they return, and may they be as hateful to all men as to themselves. Let there be not which passion deems unallowed. Let brother fear brother, father fear son, and son father. Let children vilely perish, and yet be more vilely born.
11:34 Liv Albert? Let a murderous wife lift hand against her husband. Let wars pass over sea, let streaming blood trench every land. And over the mighty chiefs of earth let lust exult triumphant. In this sin-stained house let shameful defilement be a trivial thing. Let fraternal sanctity and faith and every right be trampled underfoot. By our sins let heaven not be untainted. Why do the stars glitter in the sky? Why do their fires preserve the glory due to the world? Let the face of night be changed. Let dayfall from heaven embroil your household gods. Summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with tantalous.
12:32 Liv Albert? This is episode two thirty-two. A cursed ghost and a goddess of vengeance walk into a bar. Seneca's Thyestes, Part One.
12:56 Liv Albert? By our sins, let not heaven be untainted. Why do the stars glitter in the sky? Why do their fires preserve the glory do the world? Let the face of night be changed, let dayfall from heaven. Embroil your household gods, summon up hatred, slaughter, death, and fill the whole house with Tantalus.
13:19 Liv Albert? That and the long passage that I read at the top of the episode were some of the opening lines to Seneca's Thyestes. It's the ghost of Tantalus who really opens the play. Yes, the ghost of fucking Tantalus. But the speech that follows him is from a goddamned fury, literally. And that's what I just recited. The play opens with long speeches by not only a fury, a fucking fury, but also a ghost. Talk about setting the mood.
13:54 Liv Albert? But before we really get into this ghost of a cursed and punished man and an underworld spirit of vengeance, her body encircled with hissing venomous snakes, we need to situate ourselves. See, this family is so cursed over so many generations that it's easy to forget just who has murdered whom most recently. Where we find ourselves with the family now, there has unsurprisingly been another murder of another family member. Remember, it began with Tantalus, whose inexplicable hubris led him to kill his son Pelops, cut him up and cook him in a meal appetizing enough to tempt the gods. Pelops was returned to life by those same gods, but his father earned himself an eternal punishment in Tartarus.
14:38 Liv Albert? Pelops kept the curse moving by killing a man, Myrtleus, for reasons that we can absolutely find to be justifiable, and yet which still earned him another generation of curse. Or rather saddled his children with taking over the curse of their father, just as Pelops did his own.
14:56 Liv Albert? Now we have Pelops's two sons to contend with, Atrius and Thyestes. Where we find them, they have, again, committed a murder? Maybe? I gather that not every translator of this play can decide why exactly these two brothers are not only cursed, but about to fuck things up for each other in the most wild way imaginable. That is simply just how fucked up this family is. There are multiple reasons why these brothers are about to do the most horrifying things in the world. You see, Atrius and Thyestes had a half-brother. Pelops had a son by a woman who is not Hippodemia, but a nymph. And this child was called Chrysippus.
15:40 Liv Albert? And his story is only sometimes connected with this particular aspect of the curse, this act that's about to happen between Atrius and Thyestes. I've mentioned to him, actually to you all, not that long ago, because he is also the young man who was, again, according to just some takes on the stories, abducted by Laius, the king of Thebes, who would go on to be murdered by Oedipus, his son. See, there's that version of his story that says that Laius was cursed because he abducted and sexually assaulted Chrysippus. This is that Chrysippus. He was the half-brother of Atrius and Thyestes. And, according to some takes on that story, he was later killed by those half-brothers,
16:24 Liv Albert? providing yet another curse on Pelops's line. But that isn't always the way these brothers are introduced. It doesn't really matter whether they killed their brother, frankly, they are cursed enough without the murder on their hands. Instead, according to Emily Wilson's translation, which is the main one I'm using, we're not so concerned with whether or not they may have killed their half-brother, but instead, it's just a bit of the usual sort of sibling rivalry. You know the type. Two brothers fight over who gets to be the king after their father has died. They decide that it's obviously gonna be whoever possesses a golden sheepskin, but not the famous golden sheepskin? That's a different one. This is another. So that pesky sibling rivalry over who's got the golden sheep parts?
17:09 Liv Albert? You know, normal stuff. When Thyestes shows up with the golden fleece, Atrius accuses him of only having it because Thyestes seduced Atrius's wife, Areopae, and it's she who gave him the fleece?
17:23 Liv Albert? You know that age-old story. Anyway, Atreus was convinced that Thyestes only had this fleece because of that, so he seized the throne himself and exiled his brother. And it's only when Thyestes returns from this exile that Seneca's play picks up and brings us, screaming like a fury, back to this cursed-as-all-fuck family.
17:48 Liv Albert? The ghost of Tantalus introduces us to the story at hand, or rather, first he's gotta remind us of where he normally has to spend his days. Because this isn't a Greek play, remember? So we're not gonna begin with some big speech reminding us of the full extent of the story or slowly introducing us to the violence that's about to happen, you know, offstage. This is Seneca. So the first lines are a ghost asking who has pulled him from his eternal Tartarian punishment. Suddenly, he's not surrounded by food and drink that he will never reach. He can't hear the screams of Titios, the giant who assaulted Leto, punished for eternity by having vultures perpetually gorging on his innards. Tantalus can't hear him anymore, and, and he can't hear the endless rolling of Sisyphus's
18:33 Liv Albert? boulder. Huh, no. Now he's worried that he's maybe got a brand-new punishment to suffer through? He turns quickly, though, to introducing the audience to his family, to his children and their children, and how they will surpass their ancestors in sin. Quote, "They will make me look innocent. No one has dared such deeds. If any space lies empty in the world of sin, I claim it. Minos has work to do, as long as Pelops's house still stands." Ugh, that's Minos as the judge in the underworld, if you were curious or just wanted to understand the full extent of Tantalus's comments on his own family.
19:14 Liv Albert? He seems to serve as kind of an outsider's opinion, as much as the ghost of one's grandfather can be an outsider, you know, while also being more than aware of just how much more fucked up his family line is about to get.
19:31 Liv Albert? And then, of course, the fury speaks. That is what I read at the top of the episode. She goads him on. She wants bloodshed and violence. She wants someone to seek vengeance on. She is a fury, one of the Arenaways. Her entire job in the whole of the world is to punish those who have committed unforgivable crimes against their family members, and she is aching for blood, craving it with everything that she has. Quote, "Let every crime participate, and let the sword be drawn by each in turn. Let anger
20:13 Liv Albert? know no limit, no shame while darkening passion whips their hearts." She asks that no one have even the time to consider their past sins. Let them instead be so driven to commit further crimes that they think of nothing but that. She continues her speech. These quotes that I want to share now are from the Wilson translation. They are more detailed in calling for heinous and bloodthirsty crimes. They're easier to understand the extent of this fury's speech, calling for even more murder. She knows what she wants, and what she wants is fucking chaos. She wants those who have
20:58 Liv Albert? been exiled for past crimes like Thyestes to return so they can commit more crimes. Quote, "Let there be nothing out of bounds for anger. Let brother fear brother, parent child, child parent. Let children's deaths be terrible, but even worse, their births." She goes on, essentially to call for everything that happens to the family before, during, and after the Trojan War. She wants a wife to plot against her husband, as Clytemnestra will do to Agamemnon. She wants war across the seas. She wants blood to cover every inch of the world's land. She wants the world to be conquered by the desire of its leaders. Quote, "Let sexual wickedness be the least of sins. Let moral righteousness and faithfulness, and all law perish."
21:45 Liv Albert? We are fifty lines into this play and I am already obsessed, again, with how different Seneca's tragedies are compared to the Greek playwrights. Where even Euripides would have to write a play where the murder and the cannibalizing of one's children is bad, actually, Seneca is like, nah, why don't we start things off with the fury onstage calling for all the crimes anyone in this realm could ever possibly imagine? She's laying it all out, she wants the dirty details, she wants to know exactly how these men are about to kill, exactly how the family's crimes are going to escalate, how everything is going to blow up in the most violent and satisfying of ways.
22:26 Liv Albert? Girl wants it all and she is more than comfortable asking for it. Her speech isn't done and I'm not glossing over a single bit of it. She is, after all, I mean, the only woman in this play. She wants everything to burn and we are going to scream along with her. Quote, "Bring hatred, murder, death, use them to fill up all the house of Tantalus." She doesn't want everything dark and dreary as she calls for murder, though. She wants night to descend, yes, because that's better time for crimes, but she also wants things to look bright and cheery, you know, so that people are more likely to be trusting and thus fall victim to the crimes that she so desperately wants to take place. And of course, for all this fury is calling for crimes of all sorts, at least, you know,
23:10 Liv Albert? any that fall under her purview when it comes to raging for vengeance, what she really, really wants is exactly what this play is going to give her. She is here to introduce the audience to the play through shrieking horror, through foresight of what is to come. She is ready to spoil it all in calling for the crimes because she, like everyone in the audience, already knows what's gonna happen. This is an age-old story, one as old as the Homeric epics themselves. There is no reason to beat around the bush when everyone knows what will happen, or rather, what they know is what the Greeks already made famous. What they don't know is how Seneca, this Roman who made very clear in his Medea that everything
23:54 Liv Albert? you think you know about an ancient Greek play can still shock and horrify you, when a Roman without restraint gets his hands on it.
24:03 Liv Albert? Sure, the audience all knows that Thyestes' children will be the victims of this play, that history will repeat itself when it comes to this particular family, but that doesn't mean that she can't still provide a little extra horror, this fury. Quote, "Now let the fires be lit to boil the cauldrons, chop up the bodies in pieces, let children's blood pollute the ancestral hearth, let the tables be set."
24:31 Liv Albert? I can only begin to imagine how this play would have been staged, how the fury on the stage, shrieking and yelling at this ghost, would have appeared. She is frantic, screaming and cackling, eagerly telling and reminding Tantalus what his ghost is there to witness. She wants him ready for it, she wants him watching closely, she needs someone to witness it along with her, it's no fun if no one's there to watch. He's been freed from Tartarus, after all, just so he can watch what his descendants are about to do to each other. Quote, "Today you will have a vacation, to free yourself from hunger at the table, fill up your empty belly, watch as he drinks that cocktail of blood and wine,
25:15 Liv Albert? I have found a type of feast which even you would avoid."
25:21 Liv Albert? A type of feast which even Tantalus would avoid? You know something's about to get good and bloody and bone chillingly horrifying if a goddess of vengeance, straight from the underworld, thinks that the man eternally punished for killing his son and feeding him to the gods wouldn't even dare touch the meal that is about to be served in this house.
26:00 Liv Albert? "Back to my pools and streams and fleeing waters, back to the laden tree which shuns my very lips, let me return to the black couch of my prison-house, let it be mine, if I seem too little wretched to change my stream, in your bed's midst, oh, flagathon, let me be left hemmed round with waves of fire."
26:24 Liv Albert? Whoever you are, by the fate's law, bid into suffer allotted punishment. Whoever lies quaking beneath the hollowed rocks and fears the downfall of the mountainous mass even now coming on you. Whoever shudders at the fierce gaping of greedy lions and tangled in their toils shudders at the dread ranks of furies. Whoever half burned shuns their threatening torches, listen to the words of Tantalus now. Believe me who know and love your punishments, oh, when shall it fall to me to escape those above?
27:01 Liv Albert? Those are the ghost of Tantalus's next lines. He laments his eternal punishment, how he cannot seem to escape the fate of the world of the living, his descendants, despite the fact that he is very dead, trapped in Tartarus forever and yet doomed to face those above. But the fury, you see, has a suggestion. She wants him to create even more chaos, to bring evil even deeper into this house, into the hearts of those two brothers, those would-be kings. She wants them to fight, she wants them to kill. And you know that having a fury shrieking for blood onstage is the real horror, when a man like Tantalus, who killed and served up his own child as a meal for the gods, thinks
27:43 Liv Albert? that she is being a bit much. He tells the fury, quote, "Punishment is something I must accept, not become. Is it my mission to go like deadly gas from a vent in the earth or a plague infecting the world?"
28:03 Liv Albert? He goes on to ask whether he really must bring such horror onto his own grandsons, Atrius and Thyestes. Are they already doomed to that fate? Spoilers, yes, they fucking are, and it's gonna be amazing. This ghost of Tantalus wants to mitigate it, though, if he can. He speaks aloud a warning, not to pollute their hands with familial blood, not to give in to what the fury wants, not to infect that divine altar with such horror. He says that he will stand up to her evil, but he's stopped in the middle of these words, having instead to address the fury that he seems to want to put a stop to, quote, "Why
28:47 Liv Albert? are you lashing your whip in my face? Why the threat of these circling snakes?"
28:54 Liv Albert? The Fury has stopped him from even attempting to work against her. She whips the Ghost of Tantalus with her fiery whip. She sets her snakes on him, snakes that live wrapped around her, just writhing into terrifying form. She forces his familiar desperate hunger to return. She burns his chest from the inside out, then moves on to setting a fire in his stomach until he relents. He will follow the Fury and everything that she wants. I can only imagine that she cackles now, her eerie, blood-curdling laugh echoing around the stage. "Good," she tells the Ghost of Tantalus, "go spread what you know so well.
29:35 Liv Albert? Make them resemble you, make them hate, make them thirst to drink their own blood." Make them thirst to drink their own blood.
29:48 Liv Albert? The palace trembles with the knowledge that Tantalus has returned. The Fury goes on, before applauding his efforts and directing him back to his Tartarian punishment, because that's all she wanted. She needed this ancestral curse returned to the brothers. She wants them infected with the crimes of their ancestors. She wants them aching for what Tantalus did. Only worse, more death, more horror, more of everything, because this is Seneca and he seems to be summed up with just this phrase, "more, more, more, just bigger, better, better." The Fury shifts to describing the world around her, how it changes and shifts with the forthcoming acts of violence. Quote, "The famous town of Argos fears its ancient thirst.
30:33 Liv Albert? See, even the sun wonders whether to order the day, whether to goad to life a day which is doomed to die."
30:43 Liv Albert? Fuck, I love this Fury, the singular woman in the whole play. Something I can't even be mad about, because it's just so fucking impactful to have this seemingly unnamed, so far, Fury on this stage, calling for violent crimes between men, between brothers, and fathers, and children.
31:02 Liv Albert? And then we meet the chorus of citizens. They immediately act as a counter to the fury, though her damage is well and done. The chorus wants the gods, if any, still loves the city of Argos and loves the brothers, their history across the Peloponnese, anything. If any god still has a single bit of affection for the whole of the Peloponnese, let them put a stop to what is to come. Quote, "Do not allow each generation to get worse, each son more evil than his father was." They ask that the gods stop this, that they have the children of Tantalus grow tired with
31:44 Liv Albert? their violence, their hatred, let them get over it, leave it behind. The chorus goes on to recall how it all started, how Myrtleus was traitorous against his master, inomaius, before Pelops ever betrayed him. They recall how Pelops, as a child, was killed by his own father and served to the gods, how Tantalus is punished for eternity for it. They describe that punishment in detail, how he is forever tantalized by food and drink, just forever out of reach. Hasn't this family done enough? When does it end? Not today, chorus, not today.
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35:21 Liv Albert? Oh, undaring, unskilled, unnerved, and, what in matters, I deem a king's worst reproach, yet unavenged after so many crimes, a brother's treacheries, and all right, broken down, you busy yourself with idle complaints, a mere wrathful Atrius. By now, should the whole world be resounding with your arms, on either side of the fleets be harrying both seas, by now, should fields and cities be aglow with flames, and the drawn sword be gleaming everywhere, let the whole land of Argolis resound with our horses' tread, let no forests shelter my enemy, nor citadels built on high mountain tops, let
36:03 Liv Albert? the whole nation leave my sceni and sound the trump of war, and whose hides and protects that hateful head, let him die a grievous death.
36:16 Liv Albert? Those are Atrius's first lines of this play. He enters and he just berates himself. He's referring to himself in the third person, just utterly disgusted that he has yet to punish his own brother for what he's done. He goes on to say that he doesn't care whether everything around him is taken out, whether his own city and palace fall to ruin, whether he himself is killed in the attempt, so long as Thyestes dies too.
36:43 Liv Albert? And if you're wondering what you're missing to make a response like this even remotely reasonable, you are not missing anything. The likeliest crime of Thyestes is that he seized the throne by working with or seducing Atrius's wife, Erope. We can certainly use our imagination for how that affected Erope, but as far as Atrius seems to think, it was seduction that had her working with Thyestes, very much of her own volition, so that he could take the throne. So I think in this case, one of the aspects of this cursed family is also just unchecked rage. This is over the top even for a Greek mythological man. He goes on proposing ideas to himself for how he might finally get his revenge on his brother.
37:24 Liv Albert? Quote, "Come on, my soul, do deeds that history will condemn, but never cease to speak of."
37:32 Liv Albert? Atreus continues to speak to himself of how he must get his revenge. He reveals eventually that his fear is that Thyestes, who's now returned from his exile, will try to seize the throne from him once more. But, you know, now that he's defending his kingdom in addition to seeking revenge for the crimes of his brother. So he decides that he has to work quickly. He needs to strike against Thyestes before he has a chance to do the same. Quote, "A preemptive strike is needed to stop him attacking me when I am off my guard. He will kill me or I him. The winner is the one who gets there first."
38:07 Liv Albert? I am obsessed with how quickly Seneca gets into the action. There is no slow start, no build up. We just go straight from a ghost talking to a fury to a man planning how exactly he can take out his brother before his brother can take him out. A servant of Atreus is there now, though, serving to question the king on his plans. "You're not worried that your people will work against you?" he asks, to which Atreus just notes that the best part of ruling a city is that everyone just has to accept whatever you want to do. They even have to like it.
38:39 Liv Albert? So now we know he's definitely a king with very good intentions who's only concerned for the good of his people. Just kidding. To his credit, Atreus's servant pushes back on this. He notes that to be a good king, one does need to have his people in mind. That praise by the people, if it's forced, isn't worth much. Atreus is not particularly interested in listening to this, though, let alone looking inward to see anything remotely problematic with his plans. The servant tries to remind Atreus that even if his brother is truly horrible, committing a crime against him is still wrong. They are brothers, blood.
39:21 Liv Albert? He doesn't mention that the Furies exist purely to punish acts like this, but we are certainly meant to be thinking about it. Again, Atreus isn't listening, or at least he isn't taking in the truth behind his servant's words. He's far too caught up in hating Thyestes. And fortunately, he's got a speech to remind us. And the audience, why exactly, that is?
39:49 Liv Albert? He seduced my wife, he stole her and stole her and my kingdom too. He used deceit to get the ancient mark of rule and to wreak havoc upon our family.
40:03 Liv Albert? He goes on to explain further. There's a famous golden ram in the stables of Pelops, their father. He says that every new king in his line has a scepter that's gilded by the wool of that golden ram. With that scepter comes the rule of my sceni. The scepter makes the king, thus the owner of the ram itself is the king. Diestes, he says, made my wife his partner, betrayed my bed and stole away the ram. When Diestes did this, it was Atreus who was forced into exile. He wandered alone, threatened by everyone he once knew. He tells us that he even had cause to worry that his own two sons may not have been his own, that maybe his wife's betrayal extended to them too.
40:48 Liv Albert? Their names, again, you might recognize, Agamemnon and Medaliahs. Were they even his? Atreus was forced to wonder. That's what Diestes did to his brother, Atreus, and it's why Atreus has no doubt in his mind that he must seek revenge against Diestes, that nothing he could do to his brother would be worse than what's been done to him. Why hesitate? Begin at least to raise up your spirits. Look to Tantalus and Pelops, my actions must be made to fit their model. And that's when you know where Atreus is going with this. If you are looking for inspiration in the man who killed his son and fed him to the gods, well, you are not in a good place.
41:51 Liv Albert? Gods, I'm a wordy bitch when it comes to plays like this. I just cannot resist. Not when spooky season is at hand. Not when I can tell you every disgusting and violent detail of a play such as this one. Atreus begins to argue with his servant, who suggests that if Atreus is so hell-bent on getting his revenge, why doesn't he keep it simple and just run Thyestes through with a sword? Atreus might as well laugh at this. Quote, "Death is the end of suffering. I want him to suffer. Only weak kings kill. Under my rule, people beg for the favor of death."
42:25 Liv Albert? Yeah, it sounds like he's an amazing king. His servant is rightly disturbed by this pronouncement. Atreus is going too far, and gods, if that isn't really saying something. Atreus goes on to straight-up seek the will of the Furies. He wants their anger to be infused into him. Quote, "Let come the gang of ravening Furies with violent runaways and maghira, shaking fire in each hand. The rage that burns my heart needs to become more savage. I want to be filled with greater horror." Yeah, he's definitely not in a good place mentally, but it sure does make for fine entertainment.
43:09 Liv Albert? The Fury, who started the play off with a deafening shriek, is getting exactly what she wanted. No crime against Thyestes will be enough for Atreus now. Nothing will fulfill his bloodlust. Nothing within the limits of pain will be enough, at least. No, he's going to use Thyestes himself to expel his rage, to get sufficient revenge.
43:35 Liv Albert? Atreus doesn't really know it, but he can feel the will of the fury. Like, she is infecting him, just as she'd planned, just as she'd tried to get Tantalus to help her with. He is being overtaken by her divine will. He begins to speak of a similar punishment in mythological history, another that I've told during this spookiest of seasons. He begins to consider the story of Prochny and Philomela, who got revenge on Prochny's husband, Tarius, for his crimes against Philomela. Revenge that came in the form of the murder of their son, Itis, who they then fed to Tarius without his knowledge.
44:20 Liv Albert? It's not the first time this story has been mentioned in the play either. The fury mentioned it, no doubt. The reason why Atreus considers it now. The fury has worked her magic. But gods, before I let this episode go on forever, I want to read this longer passage that Atreus speaks here. The way he references the story of Prochny and Philomela and this Thracian king they devastated. Itis, the child, definitely didn't deserve his fate, but gods, Tarius did. When Atreus speaks these words, you can hear the influence of the fury. He sounds more like her than he did at the beginning of his speeches. He is, he's taking on her will.
45:05 Liv Albert? He is inspired by her craving for blood, for her need for divine retribution for crimes within the family. This is the passage where he realizes exactly what he's going to do to his brother, just how he's going to get his revenge. And gods, it is quite the plan for revenge. I'm not lying when I say this might be the most horrific story from Greek myth, tied, maybe, with Prochny and Philomela only. This is that passage.
45:40 Liv Albert? Some greater thing, larger than the common and beyond the bounds of human use, is swelling in my soul, and it urges on my sluggish hands. I know not what it is, but it is some mighty thing. So let it be. Haste you, my soul, and do it. It is a deed worthy of Thyestes and of Atreus. Let each perform it. The Thracian house once saw a feast unspeakable, a monstrous crime, I grant, but it has been done before. Let my lust for revenge find something worse than this. Inspire my soul, Prochny and Philomela too, my cases like to yours. Help me and urge on my hand. Let the father with joyous greed carve his sons and devour his own flesh. It's more than enough.
46:24 Liv Albert? This way of punishment is pleasing. Meanwhile, where is he? Why does Atreus so long live harmless? Already before my eyes flits the whole picture of the slaughter, his lost children heaped up before their father's face. Oh, soul, why do you shrink back in fear and halt before the deed? Come, you must dare it. The crowning outrage in this crime is that he himself shall do it. The sisters' night begot, implacable, terrific furies.
47:04 Liv Albert? Sat before the prison portals, adamantine confined, combing black vipers from their horrid hair. Tisiphany, whose locks entangled are not ever smooth, tossed them around, that backward from her face such crawling snakes were thrown. Tisiphany, revengeful, takes a torch, besmeared with blood and vested in a robe dripping with crimson gore and twisting snakes and girdled, she departs her dire abode. With twitching madness, terror, fear, and woe, the fury stands with arms extended and alive with twisting vipers.
47:48 Liv Albert? She shakes her hair, the moving serpents hiss. They cling upon her shoulders and they glide around her temples, dart their fangs and vomit corruption.
48:00 Liv Albert? Plucking from the midst two snakes, she hurls them with her pestilential hand upon her victims, and with a monstrous composite of foam, once gathered from the mouth of curberus, the venom of echidna, purposeless abhurances, crimes, tears, hatred, the lust of homicide, and the dark vaporings of foolish brains, a liquid poison mixed and mingled with fresh blood in hollow brass, and boiled and stirred up with the slip of hemlock, she took it, and as they trembled through that mad mixed poison on them, and it scorched their inmost vitals, and she waved her torch repeatedly within a circle's rim, and added to the flame.
48:56 Liv Albert? This is episode two thirty-three. What the goddess of divine retribution wants, the goddess of divine retribution gets. Seneca's Thyestes, part two.
49:22 Liv Albert? What madness pricks you on to shed by turns each other's blood, and by crime to gain the throne? You know not, for high place greedy wherein true kingship lies. A king neither riches makes, nor robes of tyrian hue, nor crown upon the royal brow, nor doors with gold bright gleaming. A king is he who has laid fear aside, and the base longings of an evil heart, whom ambition unrestrained, and the fickle favor of the reckless mob move not. Neither all the mind treasures of the west, nor the golden sands which Tagus sweeps along
50:04 Liv Albert? in his shining bed, nor all the grain trod out on burning Libya's. Threshing floors, whom no hurdling path of the slanting thunderbolts will shake, nor urus harrying the sea, nor wind-swept Adriatic swell, raging with cruel wave, whom no warrior's lance nor bare steel ever mastered, who in safety established, sees all things beneath his feet, goes gladly to meet his fate, nor grieves to die.
50:41 Liv Albert? Those lines, well, we haven't quite gotten there yet. That's the next choral ode. It's just that I really enjoy opening these episodes with as many quotes as I can, because the source material is just, it's so good. But before we get to the chorus's thoughts on the crimes of this family, the crimes that are still to be committed, and just what kingship actually means, we have Atreus, working to get himself to the point where he is actually prepared, to trick his exiled brother into murdering and eating his own children.
51:17 Liv Albert? Atreus has voiced the thought. That's how we ended last week's episode. He, he has this plan, but he's still got his servant there with him, trying to talk just a little bit of sense into the king. Remember, the servant suggested Atreus just outright kill Thyestes earlier. The, the man isn't against revenge, he just realizes that there's revenge. And then there's what Atreus is planning. And one is far, far worse than the other.
51:49 Liv Albert? Atreus's servant quickly realizes that he's not about to convince Atreus to change his mind. But maybe he can at least try to point out that this plan is, well, it might be a hint difficult to pull off. So the servant asks Atreus how he's going to trick his brother. How is he going to lure him back to the palace so that Atreus could even, you know, get him into the position to fall into this plan? They don't exactly have a close relationship. Thyestes isn't just gonna wander back and give Atreus a nice brotherly hug.
52:23 Liv Albert? "My brother wants the kingdom," is Atreus's reply. "The hope that he could gain the throne back from me, take over the ruling of Mycenae like he's always wanted. That would make him brave enough to return, or, or at least brave enough to face seeing his brother again." And of course, there's still some convincing that will need to be done. Thyestes isn't stupid. He's not going to just easily trust that Atrius isn't planning to kill him the minute he returns to Mycenae. So Atrius says, quote, "I will send my sons to tell their uncle his days of wandering in exile are finally over." And he's certain that even if Thyestes himself isn't sold, if he's still hesitant, "His
53:04 Liv Albert? sons, who've spent their lives in exile, they will be tired enough to be convinced, and then they will convince him." His servant tries, at least briefly, to convince Atrius not to involve the children, not his and not Thyestes. Quote, "If you teach them to turn on their uncle, they will turn on their father. Crime often comes back round again to teach its teacher." But no, the children have to be involved. "They will be the easiest to use." Besides, Atrius says, "It's not as though they aren't already bad. The entire family is a lost cause." Quote, "The plan you call so wicked, which you think savage, brutal, blasphemous, maybe
53:49 Liv Albert? Thyestes is plotting it already." He determines that he won't tell the children of his plot. He will keep them all innocent of his crimes. He's gonna keep the children out of it. The hatred between brothers, they don't need to be involved in that. At least, his own children don't. Agamemnon and Menelaus. They don't need to be involved. They don't need to know. Thyestes's children, they're a different story. They're involved, but in a different way.
54:40 Liv Albert? Atreus is once again affected by the curse on his family, or the presence of the Fury, or some combination of the two. Because for the second time in this play, you can almost see outside machinations taking place. He says very clearly that he doesn't want to involve his children, that he wants to keep them innocent of the crimes he's planning. Even when he has them going to try to convince Thyestes to come back, he still wants to keep them innocent of the truth behind it. And then, almost immediately, he seems to change his mind.
55:24 Liv Albert? It feels to me that the Fury is like taking hold of Atreus here, like she did earlier when he was voicing his need for revenge. Just as she seemed to change his mind from simple revenge, you know, pain or death for Thyestes, into something more horrifying than anything seen before in myth, the use of Thyestes's own children, their death and worse, this Fury again is shifting Atreus's thoughts on including his own children in the plan. Just moments after he says he won't implicate his own children in his crime, he seems to stop himself. "No," he says, "if you spare your boys, you will spare his too.
56:07 Liv Albert? Let Agamemnon be a knowing instrument of my plot. Let Menelaus be conscious of the crime."
56:15 Liv Albert? Now, he wants them in on it. He wants them to be willing participants. For somewhat practical reasons, which we will get into, but more than that, I think that it's this suggestion that this, all of this ultimately is happening because it's what the fury wants. She wants the curse to continue on through this family. She wants Agamemnon and Menelaus to be just as guilty as their father, because as we well know, this will not be the last time that a fury haunts a member of this family. It's not even
56:54 Liv Albert? the most famous time that furies haunt a member of this family. Atreus goes on to explain that using his own children in this way, giving them this role in the violent and horrific destruction of Thiasdies, this active role, will also help him. He'll be able to find out once and for all the paternity of his sons. Are they really his, or did Thiasdies take them from him too? He says that his children, if they are actually the blood of Thiasdies, they will give themselves away. If they refuse to take part in this plan, then he is certainly their father.
57:37 Liv Albert? "A fearful face often reveals the truth. Large plots betray people against their will." Atreus adds to his servant, very seriously, "A warning to keep silent on everything that he's heard," to which the servant tells him that he doesn't even need to be told that, like loyalty and fear will keep him silent. He says it leans more towards the loyalty? Somehow I don't believe him. With Atreus's plan solidified and his secret safe with his servant, they both presumably leave the stage. And with that, finally, the chorus speaks up again. But they seem confused?
58:19 Liv Albert? The chorus seems to think that the rivalry between brothers has been sorted, that it's been just handled. But if they do, that only adds to the drama for the audience. The audience would be more than aware of what is to come, even if the chorus thinks everything is fine. They open their ode, which is serving as a transition of time in the vein of Greek tragedy, by exclaiming about how happy they are that these brothers have finally sorted out their argument. They go on to speak of what exactly makes a king. It's not wealth or fine clothes, it's not a crown, or how much gold you can jam into your palace.
59:01 Liv Albert? Quote, "A king is one who can set fear aside, who has no wickedness inside his heart." Chorus, have I got news for you about your king. But they go on, and like in Seneca's Medea, there's absolutely commentary here on the Roman Empire and its methods. I won't pretend like I know exactly what Seneca is getting at here, I don't know his work well enough, or his mindset, or Rome well enough, but it's very reminiscent of those speeches in Medea, which seem to focus upon all the corners of the Roman Empire. Here, though, the chorus is commenting on leadership and goodness.
59:42 Liv Albert? There seeming to suggest that good leadership is a strong mind, bravery, but also the willingness to meet one's fate, that there's no need for arms for war, no need to destroy cities by siege. So it seems to me there's a bit of criticism on Rome's imperialism here, because Carthage happened. It's also, I gather, part of Seneca's Stoicism coming through, he's a philosopher after all, but again, that's about the extent of my knowledge on Stoicism, and I'd really rather focus on the mythology of it all anyway. The point is simply, the chorus has a whole lot to say about the role of kings, the definition of what makes a good ruler, and their own appreciation for their simple life. They are happy not to be the leaders or kings.
1:00:27 Liv Albert? Quote, "Let my life flow by in silence, unmarked by the people of Rome. When my days have passed in this way, without noise, let me grow old, but never rise in class, and let me die."
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1:01:43 Liv Albert? At last I see the welcome dwellings of my fatherland, the wealth of our goalless, and the greatest and best sights to wretched exiles. A stretch of native soil and my ancestral gods, if after all gods there are. The sacred towers reared by the cyclops in beauty far excelling human effort, the racecourse thronged with youth where more than once lifted to fame have I, in my father's chariot, won the palm. Argos will come to meet me, and the thronging populace will come, but surely Atrius too. Rather, seek again your retreats in the forest depths, the impenetrable glades,
1:02:28 Liv Albert? and life shared with beasts and like to theirs. This gleaming splendor of the throne is naught that should blind my eyes with its false tinsel show. When you look upon the gift, scan well the giver too. Of late amid such fortune as all count hard, I was brave and joyous, but now I am returned to fears. My courage falters and eager to go back, I move unwilling feet along.
1:02:56 Liv Albert? Thyestes has returned to Mycenae and he's got his two sons with him. Those were some of his first lines when Thyestes returns to Mycenae, Argolis, after so long in exile. He's relieved to be there too, to be home after so long and to have his sons with him there. It's long due, but he's not stupid. For all he's happy to be home, to see the realm that he knows so well, that holds such good childhood memories, he's also worried. He knows how he left things with his brother. He knows that it can't be so simple as just him returning home to a warm welcome.
1:03:40 Liv Albert? Thyestes though, isn't there alone? Of course, his two sons are with him and they are welcome company. Only one of Thyestes's sons is going to speak in the play. And his name is Tantalus. Yep, Tantalus Junior. God damn if that's not exactly what I'm gonna call him because how iconic to name your child after your own grandfather who famously killed your father and fed him to the gods. Like, okay, fine, I know it's just a family tradition to name one's child after yourself or your father, but when your father is Tantalus, like, maybe you just sit that one out.
1:04:16 Liv Albert? Regardless, his other son, who won't have a speaking line, is named Pleisthenes. According to the older translation I have too, uh, that I've used for long speeches, there's a third son who's unnamed, but I think it's simpler to just go with the two. There will be a third son eventually, but I don't think he's born yet, so we are concerned with Tantalus Junior and Pleisthenes.
1:04:40 Liv Albert? Once Thyestes has hesitated in his return to Argolis, it has showed that while he's happy to be home, he's weary, he's not ready to trust how things are gonna go, Tantalus Junior speaks up. "Why are you so unsure, father? Why are you hesitating?" Thyestes responds, but it's almost just himself. He's not really replying to his son, he's just questioning himself aloud. "Why am I hesitating?" He asks himself. Quote, "When everything is in doubt, the kingdom and your brother, why would you fear more suffering?" He goes on noting that he should be used to pain by now, used to evil deeds and suffering,
1:05:21 Liv Albert? but even still, like, maybe I should turn back. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I think I should turn back. Thyestes says, quote, "Turn back and tear yourself away while you still can."
1:05:36 Liv Albert? "Why are you so afraid, Father?" Tantalus Jr. asks. "You're finally home. Why are you threatening to turn back now?" Quote, "Your brother is no longer angry. He returns and restores to you part of the kingdom. He sets the bones of the broken house and gives you back yourself."
1:05:55 Liv Albert? And there's our reveal. This, it seems, is what Atreus is using to lure Thyestes back to Mycenae. He's told him that he will share the kingdom, that the two brothers can split the home that's rightfully theirs, that he's no longer angry at Thyestes, he's not holding a grudge.
1:06:15 Liv Albert? Clearly Thyestes's children have been sold on this, exactly as Atreus wanted. And why wouldn't they? We're to gather, at least for now, that it was Agamemnon and Metaleus who carried this news, who came to their uncle and cousins and convinced them that Atreus wanted to reunite with his brother, that it's all water under the bridge, that all is forgiven and they should return home after so long in exile to just take what's rightfully theirs.
1:06:44 Liv Albert? Ah, so why is Thyestes still so afraid? Even he's not sure, he tells his sons. He, he doesn't see any reason to be afraid. He doesn't see anything that he should fear, and yet, he's still scared. He, he says that he wants to keep walking, to fully return home, but that his legs just won't seem to carry him there. There's just, there is something keeping him from following through.
1:07:15 Liv Albert? "Don't worry, Father," Tantalus Jr. reassures him. "If you can overcome these things that are just only in your mind, this fear that you don't have a reason for, quote, 'And look to all the prizes you can get if you return back, Father, you can be king.'" "I can," Thyestes concedes, though he's still not certain of anything. Tantalus Jr., though, tries to convince him, and it seems it's not unselfish either, his desire for Thyestes to return and take his place on the soon-to-be-shared throne. He points out that that his children will inherit it if he takes it back, to which
1:07:55 Liv Albert? Thyestes says very simply, quote, "The kingdom cannot hold to." Which, God, that means more than he or anyone else can realize. No, Thyestes, it can't hold to. It can't hold to now, and it can't hold to even in the generations still to come.
1:08:37 Liv Albert? "False, believe me, are the titles that give greatness charm. Idol our fears of hardship. While I stood high in power, never did I cease to dread, to fear the very sword upon my thigh. Oh, how good it is to stand in no man's road, carefree to eat one's bread on the ground reclining. Crime enters not lowly homes, and in safety is food taken at a slender board; poison is drunk from cups of gold. I speak that I do know, evil fortune is to be preferred to good. The lowly citizen fears no house of mine, set high and threatening
1:09:21 Liv Albert? on a mountain top. My towering roofs flash not with gleaming ivory; no guard watches over my slumbers. With no fleet of boats I fish; with no piled brake-water do I drive back the sea." But I am not feared. Safe without weapons is my house, and to my small estate, great peace is granted.
1:09:46 Liv Albert? When Tantalus Jr. asks his father how he could consider choosing an unhappy fate when a happy one is within reach, that speech I just read is Tantalus's reply. The, cut a bit for time. He's saying that the things that we think are great often are misleading. Those things like, like being a king and ruling a people, all that it comes with might seem appealing if you've never experienced them, but once you've lived it, those things can lose their luster. They stop seeming so exciting and appealing. Instead, a simple life can be much better than that of a leader. He says that his life in exile might have lacked the glamour and riches of being royalty in Argolis,
1:10:30 Liv Albert? but it also lacked the fear and anxiety that came with holding the throne, let alone that which came along with the resulting brotherly feud.
1:10:40 Liv Albert? The way Emily Wilson translates the last line of Thyestes's reply really says it all. Quote, "The ability to do without a kingdom is a kingdom."
1:10:53 Liv Albert? So this Thyestes is really interesting, at least what little we've seen of him up to now. Atreus wanted us, you know, the audience, to believe that Thyestes was the worst man alive, that he is hateful and disgusting, that he deserves the horrific fate that Atreus is planning for him. And when that's all we have about the man, it's easy to believe. But now that we're hearing from him, now that he's rehashing things about his past, thinking about his life so openly, and along with his beloved sons, he, he becomes sympathetic.
1:11:25 Liv Albert? Thyestes seems reasonable. He does not seem so bad. So now we get to wonder, does he deserve it? He, who is really the wronged party here? Obviously, the fate that's planned isn't something that anyone ever could deserve. But aside from that, still, is he so bad? Or is Atreus the one who is either at fault, or simply going way, way, way, way, way too far? Or even better, is Atreus that consumed by the will of the fury that he's just making Thyestes into someone who deserves this? How much of this entire situation is the
1:12:10 Liv Albert? will of these two brothers, you know, the result of their actions? And how much of it is caused by that goddess of vengeance who called for all of these crimes to be committed because they're fun for her? Regardless of how we feel about Atreus or Thyestes, it's important that we're hearing from his sons, or one of them. Tantalus Jr. has a very obvious purity. He just wants everyone to be back in their homeland and happy together. He, he can't see why Thyestes is so worried, so hesitant, when his brother is seeming to be, you know, happy to welcome him home. Even with Thyestes's words about, you know, the weight of ruling a kingdom,
1:12:53 Liv Albert? the appeal of a simple life, it's just, it's not getting through. A, a child who's lived his life in exile when his father once held the throne, can't understand that nuance. He, he just sees the black and white. Power and riches are within his father's reach. His brother is offering them to him. Why wouldn't he jump at the chance to have all of that and family back?
1:13:21 Liv Albert? Thyestes, though, sees beyond it. If Atreus is asking him to rule alongside him, there's more to it. There is a trick of some kind, definitely. Quote, "Could my brother love me? Before that happens, the sea will rise to drench the stars. Black night will light the earth. A loyal pact will sooner join fire to water, death to life, or wind to sea." No, Thyestes thinks. He does not believe that Atreus suddenly loves him again, that he's suddenly forgiving him for all, after all the hatred that he has been harboring for so long.
1:14:09 Liv Albert? Poor Tantalus Jr., though. He just, he doesn't get it. He doesn't understand why his father is so afraid, or why he's so hesitant to believe his own brother, to trust that his brother has forgiven him and is offering him the kingdom out of love. "What are you afraid of?" he asks his father. "Everything," Thyestes tells him. "What isn't there to be afraid of?" Atreus holds the power. He adds, though, quote, "I fear nothing for myself now, but you, sons, make me fear, Atreus."
1:14:47 Liv Albert? Oh, still not understanding, Tantalus Jr. presses his father again. Like, why are you so afraid?
1:14:54 Liv Albert? Quote, "When trouble comes, it is too late to be careful. Let it go. But I declare to you, my son, just this one thing: I follow you. It was not my idea."
1:15:11 Liv Albert? And that is when Atreus returns to the stage and spots his brother and his nephews for the first time.
1:15:22 Liv Albert? He doesn't go to greet his brother and nephews, though. Not yet. First, he's got a little speech to give, one that he doesn't want his brother to hear.
1:15:36 Liv Albert? The prey is fast caught in the toils I spread, both the sire himself and, together with the sire, the offspring of his hated race I see. Now on safe footing does my hatred fare. At last has Thyestes come into my power, he has come and the whole of him. Scarcish can I control my spirit, scarce does my rage admit restraint. So when the keen Umbrian hounds track out the prey and held on a long leash, with lowered muzzle snuffs out the trail, while with faint scent he perceives the boar afar, obediently and with silent tongue he scours the field. But when the game is nearer, with his whole strength of neck he struggles,
1:16:19 Liv Albert? loudly protests against his master's loitering and breaks away from his restraint. When rage sense blood, it cannot be concealed, yet let it be concealed. See how his the care, all unkempt, covers his woeful face, how foul his beard hangs down. Now let me keep my promise. Thyestes, it's so sweet to see my brother again. Give me the embrace that I've longed for. Let all our angry feelings pass away. From this day let ties of blood and love be cherished and let accursed hatred vanish from our hearts.
1:17:04 Liv Albert? Atreus greets his brother Thyestes and Tantalus Junior and Pleisthenes lovingly. Here's the last line of his greeting in the Emily Wilson translation. Quote, "How nice to see my brother come to my arms. I missed you. Whatever quarrels we had are over now." But of course, that is after treated us, the audience, to that long and maniacal speech about the truth of his feelings, his desperate quest for vengeance. That was the speech I just read, ending with Atreus's greeting to Thyestes. His words are fake and forced in either translation.
1:17:47 Liv Albert? Regardless, Atreus seems to have convinced his brother, at least a little bit, that he really does forgive him, that he really does want their relationship to be mended, for them to forget about all of their past fights, for them to just be brothers again.
1:18:05 Liv Albert? And Thyestes, uh, Thyestes, when he is met with this behavior of Atreus, when his brother seems to just forgive him lovingly and welcome him back home, that's when Thyestes begins to blame himself. He admits to having done everything Atreus accused him of. He plotted with Atreus's wife, Areopae, to steal the golden ram and thus steal the throne for himself. Quote, "If you were not like this, I could have refuted all charges. But Atreus, I confess, I committed all the crimes you thought I did."
1:18:41 Liv Albert? Which, again, I just, is this really something worth the revenge plot that Atreus has in mind? I don't, I don't think that it is. All the same, Thyestes doesn't know that his brother is plotting the worst crimes imaginable. He's just sorry, and it makes it all the more heartbreaking. What we do know is coming for him. He says to Atreus, quote, "A man who could hurt so good a brother seems a total scoundrel."
1:19:11 Liv Albert? He, he comes to Atreus as a suppliant, his arms wrapped around his brother's legs in a desperate plea for forgiveness. He's apologizing in the greatest way that he can. And gods, Atreus plays his role well. Looking down at his brother, he tells him, quote, "Stop hanging on to my knees. Stand up and come into my arms instead." And then he turns to his nephews, calling them in for a hug as well. A big group, family hug, after so long apart. Before he tells Thyestes, quote, "Be ready to take your share of your brother's kingdom. This is my greatest glory, returning my father's
1:19:56 Liv Albert? crown to my brother, safe and sound."
1:20:01 Liv Albert? Atreus is fucked up. This is fucked up. It's so fucked up that Thyestes, who truly keeps seeming like more and more sympathetic, tells Atreus that he's so thankful. He, he hoped that Atreus and his family are rewarded for his kindness, but that he doesn't, he doesn't want the crown. Really, that it, quote, "Would not suit my rough appearance, and my hands are too tainted to take the scepter. I would prefer to be lost in the midst of the crowd."
1:20:32 Liv Albert? He doesn't even want it, but Atreus can't let that happen. He's got his plan and he's gonna follow through with it. I don't imagine he gives any thought to who his brother might be now, after all this time, whether he might be deserving of just a tiny bit of mercy? Or if he does think that even for a moment, we're not seeing it. Atreus presses Thyestes to take his part of the kingdom that's being offered, even when Thyestes says again that he doesn't want it, that he's gonna reject Atreus's offer. He only relents when Atreus says that if Thyestes doesn't take half of the kingdom, he will give up his half too.
1:21:13 Liv Albert? And that, of course, isn't what Thyestes wants. It's their family's kingdom. He can't let Atreus give it up entirely. So finally, he does accept what Atreus is offering, with one condition: "I will bear the name of kingship, but you will have the law, the army, and myself."
1:21:34 Liv Albert? Thyestes is just so happy to be welcomed home by his brother, after so long in exile and away from his family and their kingdom. He doesn't want power, he just wants to be home.
1:22:05 Liv Albert? Well, nerds, thank you so much for listening. I don't remember quite what I'm gonna be able to have jammed into this one versus the one coming out tomorrow, but this is a multi-part series, and so I'm just finding a way to replay it all for you without giving you all like a four-hour episode. So you're gonna have the second half of this incredible play on this utterly devoid of moral integrity family. You know, there's some other people, actually, who are similarly lacking in any kind of humanity, or empathy, or...
1:22:44 Liv Albert? It's too bad. It's one of those things that
1:22:48 Liv Albert? humanity never evolved out of. Eat the rich. And more things that
1:22:56 Liv Albert? I won't say into a microphone today, but you can probably imagine what I want to say.
1:23:04 Liv Albert? Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangwisch is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, which, again, is a thing that exists, but will be better fleshed out when I can. You know, that's where we're at. Um, you can get this episode and all of the other episodes ad-free, along with other bonus content and various such items at patreon.com/MythsBaby by subscribing to the Oracle Edition
1:23:47 Liv Albert? or via just the ad-free subscription on Apple Podcasts. That's probably enough for today. I am Liv and I love this shit.
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Previous RE-AIR: Conversations: Dragons! Witches! Werewolves! The Ancient Supernatural w/ Daniel Ogden Next Spooky Special... Liv's Favourite F--ked Up Family (aka Must Not Eat Children, Part 2) Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated