Part One: The Grifters Behind The Fake Autism 'Cure' Industry

Robert and Mangesh Hattikudur explore the birth of the "unorthodox biomedical movement", which is a fancy way of saying "fake doctors who poison children to cure Autism". https://tinyurl.com/Help-Myanmar freeburmarangers.org freeburmarangers.org See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Hi everybody, it's James here. If you didn't listen to it, it could happen here. You might not recognise me. My name's James Stout and I am the guy who pops onto this feed every few months to tell you something very sad and then ask for your money. And that's why I'm here today. A terrible earthquake struck Myanmar today, the day I'm recording this, which is Friday the 28th of March. It was 7.7 on the Richter scale. We know of more than 100 deaths, but it's likely the death toll is much, much, much higher. Lots of the telegraph and internet infrastructure has been taken out by the earthquake and the Hunter restricts internet and social media access. So we don't really know the full extent of the death,

• 0:44Speaker 00

  but we can imagine it will be very high as one of the areas most affected was Mandalay, which is the second largest city in Myanmar. I've spoken to half a dozen sources in Myanmar today, people who Robert and I have interviewed before. They're all okay, but they all shared how terrible things were. They said things were as bad as they were at the time of Cyclone Nargis, which was a terrible disaster in 2008. If you would like to support the people of Burma who are currently fighting against tyrannical dictatorship as well as dealing with the consequences of this natural disaster, there are a couple of ways you can do so. I was actually already running a fundraiser on my Patreon for Mobie PDF. They are a casualty

• 1:26Speaker 00

  evacuation team in southern Shan State, right at the fiercest part of the fighting right now. And they don't fight. What they do is they go and they evacuate people who have been injured and they provide medical services to internally displaced people. They've been doing this since 2021. They're incredibly brave people and they've saved more than 300 lives. You can read more about them by going to my Patreon post, which also includes all the links for donation. The website for that is tinyurl.com/help-myanmar. That's tinyurl.com/help-myanmar. If you'd like to donate somewhere else, an organisation that you can donate to is the FreeBurma.org.

• 2:10Speaker 00

  Rangers, freeburmarangers.org. They're a fantastic NGO. They've been doing a lot of medical work in the liberated zones of Myanmar for a very long time. They've also worked in Rajava and lots of other places around the world where people need help. I spoke to Dave from FPR today, he's well, and he told me that they're already starting to respond to the disaster. So to donate to them, freeburmarangers.org. Thanks very much. We appreciate your support.

• 2:36Robert Evans?

  Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that is happening right now to your ears. There's, there's nothing you can do about it, except for like, turn off your phone or your headset, but don't do that. Listen to these great episodes that we have with my good friend, Mangesh. Mangesh, welcome to the program.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me, Robert and Sophie. I'm thrilled to be here.

• 3:03Speaker 03

  Mango is here.

• 3:04Robert Evans?

  Mango, you, you used to work at, at the company that we currently work at, and now you're, you're independent. You're a, you're a pirate, you know, flying your own flag in the middle of the sea, but the sea is podcasts.

• 3:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I mean, a jolly pirate, I hope, but uh.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:23Robert Evans?

  Pirates are jolly.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  And, and you, and you co-host a, a podcast with our boss and friend, Will Pearson, called Part-Time Genius.

• 3:33Robert Evans?

  Our boss friend.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  But friend and boss. Notice how I ordered that. And people should listen to it. It makes me, it's like a podcast that'll make you happy. You'll like get to learn a thing, but it'll be fun.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  That is so sweet. It, it really is. It's like the, the way that we used to talk in college, really nerdy and late into the night and just making each other laugh. And, and it feels nice that we get to do that still all these years later.

• 3:59Robert Evans?

  Excellent.

• 4:00Speaker 03

  That's beautiful. You're not gonna, you're not gonna feel good after we tell you what we're talking about today.

• 4:07Robert Evans?

  What we're gonna, what we're gonna talk about today is not something that will make you feel good.

• 4:11Speaker 03

  It is kind of, it is not, it's gonna make you feel really bad.

• 4:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 4:15Robert Evans?

  We're, we're gonna talk about the history of quack snake oil cures that kill children in an attempt to cure them of autism.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh.

• 4:24Robert Evans?

  I'm not laughing at that, that's, that's, that's horrible, which is why we're talking about it, but it's, it's such a fucked up thing to be like, hello, good friend.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  I was so excited to come here and, and just like, like have a box of popcorn and listen to you tell me stories.

• 4:37Robert Evans?

  10,000 words of some of the bleakest shit you've ever heard is about to be coming your way. Congrats.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 4:44Robert Evans?

  Thanks for showing up this week.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  I can't wait.

• 4:50Speaker 04

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• 4:54Robert Evans?

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• 5:58Robert Evans?

  So, you know, I want to start this by saying we're talking about like autism quote unquote cures. There's no way to cure autism, uh, which a thing is a thing we now understand is like a condition. It's a way some people are, but it is treated, uh, often still as a disease that needs to be eradicated as if it's like a plague and a lot of harm comes from kind of the discrepancy between the reality of the situation and how a great deal of people see it. Um, and this week we're going to talk about the specifically the grifters, a group called the biomedical movement, which is, these are all people who are adjacent to guys like Andrew Wakefield. They're all people who sell different kinds of, we're talking about like Chalation therapy and shit, all sorts of different like treatments

• 6:41Robert Evans?

  and cures. They call them interventions and ultimately the impact of all of this stuff is that it poisons a lot of children. Oh no. So the inciting incident for me working on these episodes, and maybe you heard about this story, Mangesh, is, uh, on January 31st, a five-year-old child suffering from ADHD and sleep apnea was admitted to the Oxford Center in the Detroit suburb of Troy for treatment. Now, that name, the Oxford Center, sounds great, right? That sounds like a legitimate place of medical science, right? Oxford. We all know that's a good name. That means something real. Has nothing to do with the college. Has nothing to do with academics at all. It is instead a place where parents take their children to have unproven medical

• 7:23Robert Evans?

  experiments conducted on them for profit. Um, one of those experiments was the use of hyperbaric therapy to treat ADHD and sleep apnea. Now, to be very clear, hyperbaric therapy is a thing. It's a very real medical thing, right? Like, I think it got its start in use. Basically, it's like pressurizing and oxygenating, uh, like an area, a room, or in the case of what this kid was being put in a little glass tube, but it starts with like, you have people diving and when you're diving particularly at like certain depths for too long, you get like all of these gases building up in your blood. And if you like surface, even if you're doing it slowly, there's a certain point at which you can't surface on your own slowly enough to like have that stuff dissipate and not...

• 8:07Robert Evans?

  Fuck you up. So you go into a hyperbaric chamber and it basically purges that shit, right?

• 8:12Speaker 02

  For like the bends or whatever.

• 8:14Robert Evans?

  Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Essentially, this is like people who are doing like very deep sea, like when they're welding at the bottom of like, um, oil rigs and stuff. That's one of the things you use this for. But they found there's other things hyperbaric chambers are great for actually over, over the years. Because it oxygen, it like forces so much oxygen into your tissues. There are people who have certain kind of like injuries that won't heal, like people with diabetes, right? Often can get injuries in like their feet that don't heal. A hyperbaric chamber can like force the healing process to start, basically.

• 8:47Speaker 02

  And don't they, don't they use it for like NFL players or like there's some, I feel like certain athletes do it, right?

• 8:53Robert Evans?

  And there's some, there's some discussion that there may be some like benefits there. That's when we get more into the snake oil, right? Because most of, much of what hyperbaric chambers use for is not the stuff where it's proven to help. You know, again, there's maybe some sports medicine benefits to it. And there's stuff like if you have radiation injuries, uh, hyperbaric chambers can help. So there are some real uses. These are actually very, this is actually a very powerful therapy for certain proven things. However, there's no evidence that it does anything for ADHD or sleep apnea. Zero.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 9:25Robert Evans?

  Just not things that it helps with. But there's this widespread belief that comes out of this biomedical movement for like trying to treat and cure autism, that hyperbaric chambers are useful for that. And I know, I said this kid has ADHD and sleep apnea. Kind of the gist of the story that we'll be telling is an awful lot of these same people believe ADHD is another type of autism, which is not the mainstream scientific consensus.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  My understanding was, yeah.

• 9:54Robert Evans?

  But, but that is, that is part of why this gets lumped in. And it gets lumped in because you can then sell hyperbaric therapy to more people with kids, right?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 10:03Robert Evans?

  So again, hyperbaric chamber, chamber is pretty cool, but they're not useful for the problems that this five-year-old kid, Thomas Cooper had. And because the Oxford Center existed to take money from parents with kids who had autism and other stuff going on, they didn't really care about scientific rigor or even basic safety protocol. So here's the thing about doing a therapy like this, you, you have essentially like a hundred percent oxygen. Now, do you remember, Mangesh, what happened to that Apollo mission? That back when they were using 100% O2 inside of the spacecraft?

• 10:38Speaker 02

  It doesn't seem like a smart idea.

• 10:40Robert Evans?

  It caught on fire on the inside and everyone died a horrible death.

• 10:47Robert Evans?

  Now, there's a way to deal with this, right? Because there's a part of the benefit of a hyperbaric chamber when it's useful is how much oxygen there is in there and the way that like the pressure works with that. But when you have this much oxygen, you have to take a lot of weird precautions to make sure that everyone inside the chamber doesn't get incinerated. So, among other things, if you're in a properly run hyperbaric chamber, you are going to be only wearing like cotton fabric, right? Because wool and polyester can cause extremely tiny sparks when it rubs against other fabrics or whatever in such an environment. And normally, you don't notice that, but the smallest spark can cause an explosive fire that instantly burns you to death, right?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 11:29Robert Evans?

  The other thing that you do, if you're putting someone in this, in addition to making sure they're wearing the right fabric, is you put a grounding thing on their wrist, right? If you've ever like built computers out of parts, you've used one of these and it's to stop you from like a static discharge from fucking up this very precious machinery that you're putting inside of a box. Well, you put those on a person and that also reduces the risk, right? None of this was done in this situation. This kid was wearing whatever he was, I think he was wearing polyester, right? And he was, he had like a polyester blanket too. Nobody really made sure and he wasn't grounded, right? And so, at one point, he like turned over and there was a spark and his entire body immediately ignited.

• 12:12Robert Evans?

  And the hyperbaric chamber he was in was a small glass tube, just big enough for a person's body. So he had no move, there's no escaping, there's no way to get out. He was just in a tube of glass on fire.

• 12:25Robert Evans?

  His mom, who's sitting nearby, there's no medical professionals nearby, breaks, tries to break him out.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Wait, no medical professionals nearby?

• 12:32Robert Evans?

  No, of course not, of course not.

• 12:35Robert Evans?

  This isn't a medical procedure, really. You know, it should be, but that's not how they're treating it. Yes.

• 12:41Speaker 03

  No.

• 12:41Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So his mom is sitting nearby and she tries to break into this contraption and suffers third degree burns to her arms trying to save her little boy. Her lawyer later said, "It's literally the worst thing any parent could experience." And poor Thomas, his last moments of life were being engulfed in flames and perishing in front of his mother. He was certainly aware of what was going on.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 13:03Robert Evans?

  And, yeah, the kid dies and just as a-

• 13:05Speaker 03

  Unimaginably horrible.

• 13:07Robert Evans?

  As an aside, every time this happens, the person dies. There, this is a hundred percent fatality rate problem. When it's in a chamber this small, if you're in like a much bigger chamber, there's like some ways to, that you could potentially escape. But when a fire hap, when this kind of fire happens, this kind of condition, people don't live, right? Like, that's just, that's just the way it is.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  And so, so for, for these treatments, are, are they just coming like once? Is it like, like, one and done or is it like-

• 13:34Robert Evans?

  Not nearly as much money. People do this as many times as you can get them to pay.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  Oh, so, so like, and was this the first time that this kid had been there or had it been like a number of times?

• 13:44Robert Evans?

  I think this was the first time for this kid, but I'm not actually certain of

• 13:47Speaker 03

  And there's no medical professional nearby, nobody, nothing.

• 13:50Robert Evans?

  No, there's usually someone, generally like a retired doctor. It's kind of like getting a pot prescription used to be where like, you've got some guy who's not really, you know, he used to be a fucking ENT doctor and he doesn't do that anymore, but he like signs some paperwork, right?

• 14:03Speaker 03

  No, but that was part of the fun.

• 14:05Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  You're like, you're like-

• 14:07Robert Evans?

  Right, because it's weed. This is, it's not fun when it's a, the, when it's the burn you to death chamber.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  No, it's like, you know, you go home and Google the person who gave you the prescription and go, "What fucked up thing did you do to get here?"

• 14:20Robert Evans?

  How many people did you get killed?

• 14:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Why do you barely have a medical license?

• 14:26Robert Evans?

  Oh, man. Those were the days, my friend.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Venice Beach.

• 14:32Robert Evans?

  So Michigan, which is where this happens, had no rules.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  It happened in Michigan?

• 14:37Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And there were absolutely no rules about how hyperbaric chambers had to be like maintained when you were doing stuff like this. Absolutely no standards. But the government does come in, they find out that these, the Oxford Center had old machines that were way past the date in which they would have needed to be refurbished to operate safely. And to make matters worse, there's like a, because these are devices where people die if they're not working properly, there is a life cycle indicator that tells you how many times it's been used. So you know if it has to be refurbished before further use. And they had illegally dial back that number, like you do, like used car dealers do on a car?

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:16Robert Evans?

  Yeah. But on the death chamber that burns children alive.

• 15:20Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 15:21Robert Evans?

  Further investigation by the authorities found, per this USA Today article, quote, "The Oxford Center staff failed to meet the following safety standards on the day of Thomas's death. Number one, conduct his daily maintenance check and pre dive safety check. Number two, have a medical doctor or safety supervisor at the Troy facility at the time of Thomas's treatment. Number three, provide a licensed technician to perform the treatment. Number four, require Thomas to wear a grounding strap during his treatment." None of this was done. Ultimately, both the facility safety director and the CEO of the company were charged with negligence. The CEO, Tamila Peterson, has to go down as the most irresponsible single individual in this story. When it became clear that this five year old had died

• 16:04Robert Evans?

  in her center, detectives showed up because a five year old burnt to death, right? You're gonna send some detectives in. And she immediately flees the scene and takes her laptop to her young son and tells him to scrub it.

• 16:20Robert Evans?

  Great. Good moming. Immediately implicate your kid too. Excellent work. Responsible parenting. We love to see it.

• 16:32Robert Evans?

  This is a helicopter parent, but in the sense that helicopters are extremely dangerous and kill everyone inside of them.

• 16:40Robert Evans?

  So thankfully, again, the youth these days, not great with computers. Her kid doesn't really know how to scrub a laptop.

• 16:51Robert Evans?

  And so it doesn't get scrubbed. And I'm going to quote from an article by the Detroit Free Press here. Still, police found electronic messages on Peterson's devices, said Detective Danielle Trigger. Great name for a detective, by the way, including an exchange in which Peterson sent photos of the boy's burning body and wrote something to the effect of, if my leg was on fire, I would at least try to hit it and put it out. He just laid there and did nothing. She is roasting a dying five-year-old with pictures of his corpse.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 17:21Robert Evans?

  And roasting the wrong word.

• 17:26Robert Evans?

  Also, Danielle Trigger, that's like, that's like an airport mystery novel series character, Dave. That can't be a real detective saying. That's some Nancy Drew shit. It is very funny. Like, if you are Danielle Trigger, you just kind of have to become a detective. Like, you try to be a beat cop, and they're like, no, no, no, you're going right to murders.

• 17:47Robert Evans?

  Take off that uniform, you are putting on a trench coat.

• 17:52Robert Evans?

  Peterson's messages also showed that when she was asked whether the company was promoting hyperbaric chambers to treat erectile dysfunction, she responded, whatever gets bodies in those chambers, lol.

• 18:06Robert Evans?

  Jesus Christ. LMAO, love my crimes.

• 18:15Robert Evans?

  What the fuck, lady?

• 18:18Robert Evans?

  So, this is the story that got me looking into the stuff that led to the writing of this episode. We're going to be going back in time from this point, but I wanted to start kind of at the end, because we're going to explain why this is a thing, right? Why there is such an industry for quack medicine like this that promises to deal with whatever learning disability or condition your child has by giving them dangerous, absolutely scientifically unverifiable interventions. And if I had to name the root cause of all of this, it would be the fact that autism has, for the most of the time that it has been in use as a diagnostic term, been considered like a disease. Right? Like an illness and generally a life ruining one, right?

• 19:03Robert Evans?

  And I need to separate here the diagnostic term autism from what we know today as autism, because they're very different things. As I said in our episodes, we did some episodes on a guy named Bruno Bettelheim, who was a pioneering quack in the child development and child abuse fields. In the 30s and 40s, every child who didn't behave in accordance with the desires of adults at the time was labeled as autistic. Now, there were other labels that they used. The terms psychotic and schizophrenic were used interchangeably with autism in diagnoses of kids who had basically any kind of behavioral issue up until the 1980s, which is when we started to gain a better understanding of what those terms mean.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Until the 1980s?

• 19:42Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  It was, it was, that's crazy.

• 19:44Robert Evans?

  And like you, you will hear childhood like psychosis used interchangeably with autism a bunch in the mid-century. And the actual fact of the matter is that what we now call autism, we know actually makes you less likely to develop schizophrenia, although we really don't know why, right? It's just kind of like the data suggests that people who have been diagnosed with autism have lower rates of schizophrenia than kind of the general population. But it shows how off-base people were about the basics of this stuff for a very long time. And you could view the change that occurred in the 1980s as broadly positive, which is autism stops being seen as, you know, basically childhood psychosis, and starts being seen as a disorder of development. So it's no longer being treated as a psychiatric illness,

• 20:29Robert Evans?

  which means the parents of these kids start to deal with a lot less stigma. And the fact that there was stigma to begin with does go back to our friend Bruno Bettelheim, who had argued that quote unquote refrigerator moms, cold mothers, caused autism, like if your mom isn't nice enough to you, that's how you get autism? Not, not the truth. But this also goes back deeper to Sigmund and Anna Freud, who had positive view of mental illness that often blamed the actions of the parents for most problems in children, right?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:59Robert Evans?

  In other words, they weren't seeing a lot of this as like genetic, as just kind of structural or chemical. They were seeing this as your mom or dad fuck up, and so you wind up. With with whatever illness, right? And so there was a deep stigma if you were a parent with a kid who had any kind of developmental disorder or illness that you had done something to cause it, right? Which is obviously very bad for parents and not any better for children. And one of the results of this is that once stuff starts to change, this first generation of parents who are starting to get closer to correct diagnoses when their kids get diagnosed with autism also were generally raised in a culture where parents have usually been blamed for what happened to their kids in this way.

• 21:41Robert Evans?

  And that's starting to change, but they still have this deeply rooted desire to prove I'm not why this happened, right? It's a huge part of the story that we're going to tell.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  I mean, that that that still must be the case, right? Like, there's so many like high performing perfectionist like parents who have kids who who are autistic and like one, they don't want to believe their kids are autistic for a very long time, right? They don't see it in front of them, but but but the but that sense that you can fix it or cure it like is is is so desperate and for for so many of them.

• 22:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's the we're going to talk about that. And it's also just the fact that at this point in time, when kids get diagnosed with autism, they are generally people, they're generally kids who

• 22:24Robert Evans?

  they've number one, have other things going on. There are different kinds of developmental disorders and even physical disabilities that sometimes happen alongside autism. It's like not necessarily cause of effect, but like they're correlated. And all most people who we would understand today as having autism aren't being diagnosed with it, right? Because most of people who who have autism are generally able to still live independent, normal lives.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:50Robert Evans?

  Most people who are getting diagnosed with it in the these days aren't. So there's also that attitude that like this is this is a life ruiner, right? That's how a lot of and I'm not Saying anything bad about like people who do have more severe disorders or that like life ruining is a good way to talk about that, but that's how people are talking about it in this period of time. No, of course. So there's both this stigma and this incredible fear around it. And there's also this attitude, it started to change the idea that the parent has to be to blame, but there's still this very American attitude that someone has to be to blame, right? Hmm. And all of these different factors are the real root of the biomedical movement that brings us in the 21st century to RFK Jr. and that five-year-old kid burning to death in a hyperbaric tube.

• 23:33Robert Evans?

  And, you know, I think I should also state here that increasing numbers of people do not think it's responsible or good to talk about autism as a disability or as like a disorder. It's just kind of a way people are. And I tend to think there's a lot to that attitude. But again, part of the issue is that a lot of the people getting diagnosed in this period of time have other stuff going on and have a lot of very severe problems. When I was working in special ed, all of our kids were just described to me as kids with autism, but they were all, they all had a lot of severe issues. I'm not just, and I'm talking about like, a lot of them were quadriplegics because of

• 24:15Robert Evans?

  birth defects, a lot of them had had like a lack of oxygen to the brain. And so these were kids who, I mean, we dealt with grand mal seizures every single day. These were kids who were often very sick and often in a lot of pain. And that is a lot, to a lot of people's understanding of that I've just what autism is, right? Which is not accurate, right? Right, right. One of the things that we have learned over the years, when I was teaching, and this is close to 20 years ago, I think the understanding was that something like a third of people with autism had average or above-average IQs. And every like few years, that number has leapt up to the point that now it looks like 60% or more, and I'm sure the number, I'm sure it's basically the same distribution as the normal population.

• 24:56Robert Evans?

  And I'm not trying to reduce everything to IQ, but again, initially, the people getting diagnosed and so our understanding of what autism is, is deeply skewed by the fact that most people who have it are Just sort of like still living in like not getting a diagnosis and going about their day. Right. The fact of the matter is that like David Byrne and David Lynch were never formally diagnosed with autism. Right?

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I mean, there's a, there's an article, like an opinions piece in the New York Times this week from the editor of the journal Science, who has, you know, said he figured out he had autism at age 53. And, and was talking about how like, you know, it's made him so much better of a scientist. And he sees things that other people don't, but, but, uh, but also that late understanding that like, he's in this field and didn't realize that, that he had autism until such a late period.

• 25:50Robert Evans?

  And that's, I think that's like the, again, increasingly the way it's seen today. And probably the right way to look at it is that like, yeah, some people, it's a different way of being the person. You're not like, it's not the same way everyone is, but like, it's not like an inherently like bad or deleterious thing. It's just, you're different. And so there are different ways that you're going to interact with and, and view the world and different things that are going to work when like, we're talking about educating people with autism. And, and again, our, our understanding of this is still very much developing, but it's in a very primitive state in the eighties and nineties. Right?

• 26:23Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 26:24Robert Evans?

  Now, people do know Asperger's syndrome is a topic of discussion by this time in like the eighties and, and such. And so there is an understanding that like, some of these kids are like, you know, it's this idea that like, some of them get superpowers, right? Which is not really an accurate way to view it. But like some, we do know that like, there are people with autism who are like super high, like highly intelligent and capable in specific areas. But the general understanding, if you get this, is that your kid is never going to live a quote unquote, "normal" life. Right? That's how people talk about it. So if you're keeping track, in the late eighties and early nineties, you got a couple of things coming together. You have a generation of parents who are still used to and traumatized by the thought of being blamed for their kid's condition,

• 27:07Robert Evans?

  who are also used to seeing autism depicted as a fate worse than death. Feeding into this complex churn is the fact that as the term autism grows to encompass more people, it loses what author and doctor Michael Fitzpatrick describes as A sense of coherence. Michael wrote a great book about the biomedical movement titled Defeating Autism: A Damaging Delusion. And in it, he writes, "The autistic spectrum stretched from children who are nonverbal to severely disabled to those who are of high intelligence but behave strangely and had no friends. The spectrum included children with Rett syndrome, a neurodegenerative disorder with an identified genetic cause with fairly superficial similarities to autism. It also included children with atypical autism, or in the USA, pervasive developmental disorder,

• 27:50Robert Evans?

  not otherwise specified, a label that merely exposed the incoherence of the diagnostic framework. As one authority commented, "Any classification system that includes atypical versions of one entity as a separate diagnosable entity all its own has to be next to useless as the basis for scientific progress." Which is a really good point, that like, yeah, there's this thing and also the opposite is also the thing. Like, it's like, yeah, that's, maybe we didn't have it right.

• 28:18Robert Evans?

  Maybe that's not a super useful term to be describing this ass. You know, stuff like this is a moving target and it's both worth acknowledging like the harm that the fact that this is deeply incomplete and fucked up has on a lot of kids and parents at this time. And also, well, you were never gonna get this right straight away.

• 28:40Robert Evans?

  So the confusion here is the final ingredient to what comes next. The unorthodox biomedical movement, which is how Fitzpatrick describes this movement that kind of terminates in the, that five-year-old in the tube, starts with parents who are angry and shocked that their kids are, as they see it, broken. And they're also angry and scared of the thought of being blamed themselves. The clinical definition is flawed, and this produces the opportunity for them to question it, starting with a rejection of the idea that autism is, quote, "purely genetic." Now, if you remember, guys like Betelheim had argued for years that autism was caused by refrigerator moms. While science had increasingly come to the conclusion that the roots of autism were largely genetic. Now, no one ever argued that was the whole story.

• 29:23Robert Evans?

  And in fact, an interesting thing about autism is that identical twins, in cases of identical twins, both only- Have autism about 90% of the time, which means there's some degree of invite. And when we say environment, that means something other than genetics that's playing a role. Right? Right. Fitzpatrick succinctly summarizes what happened next. The biomedical activists emphasize environmental rather than the constitutional factors in the causation of autism, which they insist is a biomedical metabolic or immune system disorder. While some activists seek to redefine autism as a form of mercury poisoning or as the result of some process of vaccine injury, others regard it as primarily a gastroenterological disorder.

• 30:06Robert Evans?

  They reject the focus of the autism mainstream on genetic research, demanding the redeployment of funds into the study of putative environmental factors. And some of this is like a pride thing where they're like, if it's genetic, that means it's my fault again, which is like not Right. how you should look at that, but people do too often. And yeah, so we're going to be focusing on like the bastards and the quack experts kind of at the core of this movement. But we're also going to talk about a lot of these activists. I don't want to act like that's the only division happening here, though. From the flawed state of affairs in the early 1990s, you also have like, that's not the only thing happening within kind of the community of people with autism. In the early 1990s, you start to have the first neurodiversity activists.

• 30:51Robert Evans?

  And these are people like Jim Sinclair, who was a man with autism, who wrote in 1993, this kind of very beautiful piece in which he talked about like, I understand why parents might mourn not having the child they had expected to have. But then he went on to write, quote, "We need and deserve families who can see us and value us for ourselves, not families whose vision of us is obscured by the ghosts of children who never lived. Grieve if you must for your own lost dreams, but don't mourn for us. We are alive. We are real, and we're here waiting for you." And I, yeah, I would, we're not gonna talk about that side of the story enough because this is a podcast about bad people. But I thought it would be an error not to include that deeply affecting quote.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  That's really beautiful, actually. You know, like, you think about these parents, obviously, they, they spend so much time mourning the kids that they thought they'd have, right?

• 31:43Robert Evans?

  Right. And, and trying to fix them, that they're not actually in there engaging with, appreciating and raising their child?

• 31:50Speaker 02

  I mean, you see that with, like, like, kids who don't play, like, the, the high school jock who's, like, kid doesn't play soccer as well as he does, or whatever, right? Like, and, and you think about the difference between, you know, that expectation versus, versus someone who's severely autistic.

• 32:05Robert Evans?

  It, it's this thing that happened, and it's the, so much of the root of the modern fascist movement, is like, the parental rights movement, quote unquote, which is really just people who want to have this ancient Roman understanding of, like, I get to choose exactly who my kid becomes. And no, you don't. No one ever has. That's not how people are. Like, if you're gonna have a kid, you really need to accept that they're just gonna do whatever.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, having two kids, I have zero control over them.

• 32:35Robert Evans?

  You cannot make them into a specific, you can, if you're, generally, you can make sure that, like, they're not like a murderer, or a horrible criminal. Like, that's really your goal, is making sure they have, like, empathy, and like, the ability to understand how to survive in the world, but that's it.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Well, you should teach them to scrub a computer early, I imagine.

• 32:56Robert Evans?

  You gotta, you gotta teach them to be able to fucking clear those files, my god. Come on now. So, we're not, anyway, we're not gonna be talking about the Jim Sinclair's and, like, the neurodiversity movement nearly enough in here, but I, I wanted to kind of, uh, uh, bring that side of it into this, because it would be irresponsible not to. Now, let's get back to the cranks, you know?

• 33:18Speaker 03

  But first.

• 33:19Robert Evans?

  But first, you know, it's not a crank. Our sponsors.

• 33:26Robert Evans?

  You love the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast, but you've got questions. Don't worry, everybody does. To answer them, hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson-Rosso just dropped a new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. For all your burning questions, the guys turn to the experts, including Dr. Dimitri Duskalakis, an infectious disease doctor, public health honcho, and big time advocate in LGBTQ plus health, HIV prevention, and health equity. Think of it as the after show to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, where the crew dives deep into topics and stories from that week's Tuesday episode. Episodes cover topics including testing, and why are they swabbing there?

• 34:07Robert Evans?

  Finding a doctor who's not so judgy, and so much more. It's all about busting sexual health myths and helping listeners better understand the topics they may want to explore with their own doctors. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences.

• 34:29Speaker 06

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• 35:01Robert Evans?

  Oh, we're back. Boy, I love that hyperbaric chamber ad. I was thinking these things were death traps until they said 15% off. Wear whatever the fuck you want. Let's go.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  And use the coupon code.

• 35:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Polyester.

• 35:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, one of the first and most important organizations in this history is the Autism Research Institute, which was founded in 1967 and through its long life has effectively been a couple of different kinds of organization. But in its early days, at the start, it was founded by a doctor named Bernard Rimland. Rimland was a research psychologist with a son who was diagnosed with autism back in like the 50s, right? When it was blamed on cold and distant refrigerator moms. Now- Remland is not a sympathetic character in this story. He's a bad guy, but he comes from a sympathetic start, which is that his son gets diagnosed with autism, which is blamed on the mom being cold. And he's like, that's not my wife, right? Like that this, this is not on her.

• 36:00Robert Evans?

  And he's right, it's not on his wife. She runs hot. Yeah, she's, she's, she was a loving mother, I'm sure. Um, and so he, he comes to the very reasonable belief that like, well, then that's obviously, this doesn't explain autism. We're wrong about what this is. Unfortunately, he decides that autism is caused by biomechanical issues, triggered by what he termed environmental assaults. And this is what, this is the core of the anti-vax movement, right? This is the birth of it, the very, before they're really even focusing as much on that, just this understanding that this is something environmental has fucked with my kid. And that's why they've got this, right? That's, that's where it all starts. And Remland is a big anti-vax guy, but that's like the origin of it.

• 36:43Robert Evans?

  Um, now again, in this, in the initial era, 67, it, he's not being a crank for theorizing this because we don't know anything, right? Yeah. Um, and some of his observations are accurate. The issue is that Remland continued to hold to his belief about environmental contagions long after the evidence put lie to that. In between serving as the technical advisor on the 1988 film Rain Man, he concluded that vaccines were the quote, "prime suspect as the cause of autism" due to the inclusion of a mercury-based preservative known as theomersal. Um, uh, so again, this is the Rain Man guy. Yeah, yeah. Wow. In 1995, the Autism Research Institute launched a program known as

• 37:26Robert Evans?

  "Defeat Autism Now!" exclamation point, or just "Dan!" with an exclamation point.

• 37:33Robert Evans?

  That exclamation point is critical. It's always used in there and autocorrect. What's me to have the next word be a new sentence, which is very annoying for me. So Dan's goal is to put together parents with physicians and researchers to collectively explore new treatments and cures with the ultimate goal of defeating autism, a condition that cannot be defeated because again, it's just the way they are.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 38:00Robert Evans?

  I am not gonna make that point every time this comes up, but I do feel the need to emphasize it here at the jump. So Dan is the tumor which would eventually metastasize into our entire fantasy medicine industrial complex, which itself is a major booster and contributor to the modern fascist movement. You can tie the presidency of Donald Trump directly to this organization and the things it inculcated in our society. So the physicians who are interested in Dan were not, as a rule, people in, I don't know how else to pronounce it.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Every time, every time you say it, I was thinking about the exclamation point. So I'm glad you're also making the audience think about it.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  It's also gonna really be a jolt for our editor.

• 38:39Robert Evans?

  Our editor Dan? So the physicians who were interested in Dan were not, as a rule, people in the prime of their career, functioning within their chief area of medical competence. A doctor is not a doctor, right? It's one of those things, if you've got a doctor who specializes in heart surgery, he could be a great heart surgeon, he probably knows how to deliver a baby, like intellectually, but he wouldn't be your first choice, you know? Like again, better than a regular dude off the street probably.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Are you talking about Dr. Oz right now? Is that who you're talking about?

• 39:15Robert Evans?

  No, I'm not even shitting on Dr. Oz, I'm just saying like, doctors have specialties, right?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  Oh no, of course.

• 39:20Robert Evans?

  Cause medicine's a big field. Again, a guy who's specialty is like your urinary tract, you might not want like examining your eyes, cause he's not an optometrist. Not his specialty. But with stuff like this, they function on pot doctor rules, which is, hey, did you age out? Are you retired? Are you tired of being like a family practitioner or whatever? Come into this field, say you're an autism expert now, you'll get called a hero for prescribing anything and you can keep getting money for not actually doing any work, right? Now- When young medical professionals who have some actual relevant expertise get involved, it's generally because they have kids who get diagnosed with autism, right?

• 40:03Robert Evans?

  And so some of these people are like psychotherapists, psychiatrists and stuff like that. There are some neurologists who get involved in this. But for the most part, it's like older doctors who are kind of aging out of the profession and looking for a grift, you know? Again, we should have kept the pot doctor system going as like a, just a way to keep these people off the streets, right? It's like a boys and girls club for old doctors? No, no, no. Let them give out pot prescriptions?

• 40:30Speaker 02

  It's the farm up north.

• 40:33Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So these experts are not mostly doctors, though. And in fact, among the most influential of them is former schoolteacher Sue Palmer, author of the book Toxic Childhood, published in 2006. And she is one of the first people to look at this massive surge in diagnoses of autism, ADHD and other conditions, not as evidence that we were beginning to understand these conditions and thus correctly recognized how many people had them, but that there had been a, quote, "special needs explosion that must have been caused by an environmental factor." She believes it's either junk food or video games generally, right? There's different theories people have. Palmer is one of the first experts who lumps autism in with ADHD, as well as dyspraxia, dyslexia and several other learning disorders.

• 41:18Robert Evans?

  And again, this is why I started with the story, that kid is not diagnosed with autism and burns to death. He's diagnosed with ADHD, but that is, that is a death related to this movement that is sparked by fear of autism, right? Because they just start lumping in with every other thing that we're now diagnosing properly more often because they think, wow, so many more kids have this. And now probably about the same amount have it, who always have, we just know what it is now, you know? Another biomedical practitioner, Kenneth Bach, lumped autism and ADHD together with asthma and allergies and labeled them the four A disorders. In both cases, what these people are doing, these experts are doing, is mixing autism with things that aren't autism in a way that allows practitioners to make the case that

• 42:00Robert Evans?

  there's been an explosion in what they term developmental disorders. It looks even more stark if you're Mat lumping all of these things together as the same kind of thing, right?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:11Robert Evans?

  And thus they can make the cases that there's a crisis that only bold experimental medicine like they happen to be selling can treat, right? In other words, by mixing all these things together, they're creating a grouping of potential clients that include basically every parent, because almost every parent is gonna have a kid who has one of these things, right?

• 42:31Speaker 02

  That is incredible.

• 42:32Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  It's just such a grift. It's unbelievable.

• 42:35Robert Evans?

  Yeah. It's like if you're a mechanic and you're like, yeah, you know, I, uh, I deal with, I got this great way of fixing busted tires, uh, and also, you know, bad spark plugs, fucked up transmissions and yeah. And it's waving an incense stick over your Jeep, so bring it in.

• 42:54Robert Evans?

  As Fitzpatrick writes, Brian Jepson, another defeat Autism Now practitioner, suggests that autism, which he characterizes as both an environmental illness and a multi-organ metabolic disease, has increased because the general toxic load in the environment has risen to a point where so many of us have reached our genetically determined toxic tipping point that the human species has now urged edged into a state of what we might call a herd vulnerability. Though everybody is considered to be at risk from environmental dangers, campaigners believe that children are more vulnerable to than adults and that babies are the most vulnerable of all. And this is a quick aside, because mercury is probably the most common thing people blame for this. They took that, that mercury-based preservative out of vaccines in like 2001.

• 43:36Robert Evans?

  Rates of autism diagnoses continued to rise after we stopped, because it didn't, it wasn't doing anything. It has nothing to do with the vaccines. We're just getting better at diagnosing it. All of human history has been filled with people with autism. We just didn't call it that. Um.

• 43:50Speaker 02

  It is, it is amazing that like, like, obviously like mercury poisoning and mad hatters and all the like, you know that mercury has effects on people.

• 43:59Robert Evans?

  Oh, yeah. And it's, it's had back when they put it in the hats. It definitely had an impact on the population. Yes.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  But, but, but we're like, we're totally cool with like botox being botulism. But you like can't differentiate between like the, the mercury in a, in a vaccine.

• 44:13Robert Evans?

  No, it's also like chemicals are bad, but also I'll, I'll shoot whatever into my kid. If a doctor, if a fake doctor says it'll treat their autism. It's like, you're scared of vaccines? And you're putting these other shit in your baby? Like, what is wrong with you?

• 44:30Speaker 02

  I know, I know.

• 44:32Robert Evans?

  Now, I think this all, it kind of helps to explain why that little boy with ADHD dying in a hyperbaric chamber is relevant this episode. It's unclear when hyperbaric therapy first started gaining popularity as an autism treatment, but by the late 90s to the early 2000s, it was well underway as a practice among biomedical experts. That's when they start doing this. Now, the most fucked up part of all of this is that hyperbaric therapy is less dangerous than a lot of the treatments that get prescribed, because there are some potential negative consequences when it's done properly, right? You can have some issues with it because it's super pressurized, but generally, people are fine after hyperbaric therapy, right? If it's done properly, right?

• 45:14Robert Evans?

  This is not true of a lot of the drug-based treatment regimens that develop over the years. The first of it-

• 45:20Speaker 02

  When you mentioned hyperbaric therapy, like, I know there are so many, like, wealthy families that have, like, tents and stuff in their house, and they're trying to reverse their kid's autism, and it's like, I had never heard of the glass tube. That is just horrifying.

• 45:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's a nightmare. It's one of the, I know, like, Brian Johnson, that Live Forever guy, does hyperbaric shit, and fine, he's in his late 40s, he's got $500 million.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  I feel like we can sacrifice a billionaire.

• 45:45Robert Evans?

  He's more, I believe, adults, if you want to put yourself in the death chamber and potentially burn to death, I don't give a fuck, do it, right? I think people should be allowed to do heroin if they want to. Don't put your five-year-old in these things, they can't make that choice.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  I know.

• 46:00Robert Evans?

  So, the first of these autism drug remedies that really takes hold is known by the incredibly sus name, Secretin.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh.

• 46:12Robert Evans?

  Now, Secretin is a real thing. It's not like some made-up bullshit. It's a hormone that stimulates the secretion of digestive fluids from the pancreas, right? It's in, and giving people that hormone can be useful for a number of things. Part of why there, there's, and it's legitimate researchers who think, well, this might be helpful in treating some of the things that are correlated with autism, because people with autism often have a number of different GI tract issues, right? It's very common. I don't know that, I don't think we really know why. Because again, we don't, we, we really have a still to this day, we don't know very much about autism compared to like what we would like to know. But this is a thing. And so the idea that like, okay, well, this hormone that stimulates digestive fluids from the pancreas,

• 46:56Robert Evans?

  that might help with some of these side issues, not an unreasonable point, right? So there's a, they carry out a test because there's a, I think a mom who gives some of this to her kid. And she claims a pretty dramatic effect. So they, they bring in like two other kids and they do like an initial study on this stuff. And again, just three kids, and this is an unblinded study, right? So everyone getting the drug knows they're getting the drug, both the researchers and the people getting it, which is like, again, if you're kind of just exploring initially, that's not, you shouldn't base anything on this. If, if things had been done properly and they'd done this first one, they'd be like, okay, maybe we should, we need to do a blinded study now, which does actually happen. If that's all that had happened, I'd say, eh, nothing wrong here. You know, you, you do this first thing that shows there might be something to look into.

• 47:41Robert Evans?

  You do a better study with more kids that's blinded next, whatever. Unfortunately, the media being what it is, always looking for a story and there being a lot of parents with kids who are interested in this, immediately run with the whole, there's been a miracle cure found, right? As soon as this unblinded study comes out. And the biomedical treatment activists in DAN believe that they're dealing with a calamity, right? To them, autism is a disaster that is severe and time sensitive, right? If you don't really get to fixing this in your kid by the time they're three or four, you have a ticking clock and they're just going to be fucked forever, right? So you really have to jump out. You can't wait for science, right?

• 48:22Robert Evans?

  And so our friend, Dr. Remland, who's the founder of DAN, takes out a patent on secretin before any other studies are done.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  I don't think you needed to yell patent, by the way.

• 48:34Robert Evans?

  Sorry.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Misplaced exclamation point.

• 48:38Robert Evans?

  He takes out a patent on this, this, this hormone as an autism treatment and he sells it to a company called Repligen. Again, so many evil pharma names.

• 48:48Speaker 03

  What is happening here?

• 48:49Robert Evans?

  And all these people are like, the pharma industry is evil, but not Repligen. Okay, man. I don't know.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  That's the man I trust.

• 49:00Robert Evans?

  His bullishness on this hormone is based entirely on one mom. This lady, Victoria Beck, who claims that her child shows dramatic improvement with Secretin, such improvement that Dr. Remland describes Secretin as "the most important development in the history of autism." Months later, in the summer of 1999, Secretin makes its way over to the United Kingdom, where TV news crews film a boy with autism before and after Secretin injections, showing dramatic change. Now, UK media is not the only, you know, not alone in this behavior, as writer Nancy Schute notes in a piece for Scientific American. Media outlets, including Good Morning America and Ladies' Home Journal, recounted parents' joyous tales of children's transformed.

• 49:44Robert Evans?

  Now, as is always the case with this, that video was facilitated by a shady clinic, offering a lot of trendy bullshit medicine, right? That kid who gets filmed is provided with Secretin by this clinic that sells nonsense drugs. Per Fitzpatrick's book, "This course was provided by a private GP who also offered treatments for jet lag, chronic fatigue, and aging at a cost of 1,500 pounds."

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 50:12Robert Evans?

  So, this is just like, "Is this thing not regulated yet? Absolutely. We'll shoot it into you, what, 1,500 bucks? Take it. Hand me your kid. I'll shoot him with whatever."

• 50:20Speaker 02

  I love that. I love that it cures everything from autism to jet lag.

• 50:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah. I think that's different nonsense drugs, but...

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I see.

• 50:30Robert Evans?

  So, unfortunately for Secretin advocates, within six months, a double-blind study of 60 children had come to very different conclusions. Secretin was, at best, useless. This was not, at least for treating autism, this was not enough to immediately kill the industry, however, as Nancy Schute writes. "By May 2005, five randomized clinical trials had failed to reveal any benefit, and interest in Secretin waned. It took years for that to play out," says pediatrician Susan Levy, who helped conduct several of the trials. "Research is very labor-intensive, and progress may be slow. Parents may feel helpless," she adds, "and they don't want to leave any stone unturned." And there's like a, a kind of weird tragedy that commons thing here, which is like,

• 51:13Robert Evans?

  if your kid gets diagnosed with a thing that we don't understand well, how to help with, or even what it is, you may be best just like loving them and trying to help them figure out life and waiting for the science to, to figure stuff out because the alternative is you do what these parents do, which is just you're shooting random crap into your child. And I get there. It's, it's this, one of the biggest problems in like emergency situations. Obviously there's the issue of like people just not do the bystander effect, but there's also this issue of people feeling like I have to do something and then making the problem worse. When you're trained in like emergency medicine, one of the first pieces of training is like, don't just jump in there. You need to evaluate the scene because

• 51:57Robert Evans?

  the worst thing you can do is try to go be a hero and add a casualty to the situation, right?

• 52:02Speaker 02

  Oh my God, of course.

• 52:03Robert Evans?

  This is why you get like a downed power line. The whole family dies rushing to save one person, right? Because they're, the, the stress of not doing anything, which is sometimes the best thing to do, is really hard. And that's what's going on psychologically here too. So, you know, by, by the point that we are at now, there have been more than a dozen double-blind studies that all repeatedly remain the same case. Secretin just doesn't work this way. Science and the sheer ineffectiveness of Secretin has eventually brought it to, I don't think it's entirely extinct, but it's, it's not as common as it once was. But obviously a lot of parent, children are drugged and thankfully this, the side effects of this aren't as bad as the next thing we're going to talk about, but their parents are robbed blind, right? This is not cheap. Michael Fitzpatrick, himself a physician, writes

• 52:48Robert Evans?

  this, "One day in surgery, the mother of a boy with autism told me that she had spent the equivalent of his disability living allowance for one year on a course of Secretin injections provided at a Harley Street clinic. For a single parent reliant on benefits, the outcome of this encounter with a biomedical practitioner was not only disappointment when the miracle cure failed, but financial hardship for the whole family." And obviously these people don't care. They're laughing all the way to the bank. They don't give a shit if any of this works.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's horrifying.

• 53:17Robert Evans?

  And it's going to get worse because again, at least Secretin doesn't seem to really fuck people up too much, right? It's just kind of useless, but the next thing is not just that. You know what doesn't have any hype to it because it's just that good? Our ads.

• 53:34Robert Evans?

  You love the Sniffy's Cruising Confessions podcast, but you've got questions. Don't worry, everybody does. To answer them, hosts Gabe Gonzalez and Chris Patterson-Rosso just dropped a new bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor. For all your burning questions, the guys turn to the experts, including Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis, an infectious disease doctor, public health honcho, and big time advocate in LGBTQ+ health, HIV prevention, and health equity. Think of it as the after show to Sniffy's Cruising Confessions, where the crew dives deep into topics and stories from that week's Tuesday episode. Episodes cover topics including testing and why are they swabbing there? Finding a doctor who's not so judgy? And so much more.

• 54:19Robert Evans?

  It's all about busting sexual health myths and helping listeners better understand the topics they may want to explore with their own doctors. Listen to this special bonus series, Sniffy's Cruising Confessions: Bedside Manor, now on the iHeart Radio app or wherever you get podcasts. Sponsored by Healthy Sexual from Gilead Sciences.

• 54:37Speaker 06

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 55:08Robert Evans?

  All right, everybody, we're back. So while these studies are accumulating and the hype over Secreton is dying down, the con men offering cures to desperate DAN parents spun up a new strategy for interventions. They had long believed that mercury poisoning was a root cause of autism. So of course, the logical place to look for a potential cure was treatments that could reduce the amount of heavy metals in a child's blood, right? If it's metals that are causing it, why don't we look at ways to strip heavy metals from somebody's system, right? And there is a way to do that. It's called chelation therapy. Right? Like hyperbaric therapy, this is real medicine. If you have like lead poisoning, for example, chelation therapy can do a lot of good for you.

• 55:53Robert Evans?

  You know, and it's basically, there's a couple of different drugs that could do this, but you dose people with a drug. And it converts the lead, the mercury and other heavy metals that are in their body into less dangerous compounds that you kind of pee out. Right? Right. So it's great if you're like a minor who has heavy metal exposure, you know? Sure, sure. But very few children really do, because we don't let them work in mines anymore. Give them, give, give the Republicans a year, we'll get back to it. That was the first mistake. Um, kids with autism very rarely have massive lead levels, you know? Oh my god. Um, and if they do, it doesn't, it generally doesn't have anything to do with their autism. It's because they grew up in like Flint, Michigan, right? And maybe then they do need chelation therapy. Some kids do, unfortunately.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  It's a lot of Michigan slander in this episode today, Robert.

• 56:41Robert Evans?

  It's not slander, it's just a fact. They had a, they had a lead problem.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  It is the birthplace of my parents, so.

• 56:48Robert Evans?

  Well, they might need some chelation therapy. I don't know. So you, you.

• 56:52Speaker 03

  I won't ask.

• 56:54Robert Evans?

  Chelation is great if you've got heavy metal exposure, right? But if you don't, it's harmful because the process of like pulling all of these metals out of, because we all have heavy metals in us all the time. Right? Yeah, of course. Trace levels, it's fine, right? It's fine. Sometimes it's, in some cases, you need them, but if, in other cases, it's just fine, right? Teeny tiny bit of mercury, very normal. Ask, ask people who eat a lot of fish, right? But, so if you're, if you're doing this, this has an impact on your body. This is a drug that has a pretty profound effect on you, and that means it does bad stuff. And if you have way too much lead or whatever in you, it's worth that cost, right?

• 57:36Robert Evans?

  Because the lead is gonna cause problems, but if you don't have any problems that are caused by heavy metals, you're gonna hurt yourself with this shit for no reason. Now, before we get into the use of chelation for autism, I wanted to start with, I didn't see this in other articles on chelation therapy, but I found a 2009 piece. And Slate by Arthur Allen that talks about the starting point of chelation as a snake oil cure. And it does start before autism, quote, well, before it was used for autism. Quote, chelation therapy became a craze in the 1980s as a treatment for atherosclerosis in adults. Proponents claimed patients were being harmed by mercury from their fillings. Dentists use this as an excuse to pull teeth and even remove jawbones from their patients.

• 58:17Robert Evans?

  Boyd Haley, a University of Kentucky chemist, was the high priest of the amalgam wars. When the Thimerassol theory emerged on the scene, Haley and other chelationists shifted their focus to autistic children. So again, these are people who are like, yeah, let's get with these crank dentists. Let's put our pulling teeth and jaws out of people, giving them chelation therapy. It's your fillings. And then like, that kind of dies. But then suddenly they see people blaming, you know, mercury for autism. And they're like, guys, we got a new grift. Move on over here. Move on over here. These parents aren't looking for shit.

• 58:49Robert Evans?

  So in the year 2000, this was still a fairly small number. It was fairly uncommon for children with autism to undergo chelation therapy. And at least you got to assume some of the small number of kids with autism actually like had heavy metal exposure that was unrelated. But you know, might have actually needed chelation. By 2005, there were more than 10,000 children with autism in the US regularly undergoing chelation therapy. Almost none of them had any reason to do so.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  10,000 kids?

• 59:15Robert Evans?

  Yeah. And this is like a five year period of time from a handful to 10,000.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 59:21Robert Evans?

  On a regular basis. So unlike secretin, chelation therapy involved dosing children with an extraordinarily powerful drug that had dangerous side effects. Chelation can cause kidney failure, especially if administered in IV form, which is exactly what most biomedical experts advised when treating autism. The standard of care, you only really use IV if you have to. You have other ways. There's like pills. I think there's creams that are less harsh on your body. And you can generally do that with people who just have heavy metal exposure for a variety of reasons, including to get more money from it. These guys are like, no, you gotta do an IV, right? Which we know is the most dangerous way to do this.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:57Robert Evans?

  Chelation therapy can also cause heart problems, which again is for you don't take this unless. You have to. One person who absolutely did not need Chalation therapy was Abu Bakar Tariq Nadama, age five. He was the son of a physician in Britain who had been diagnosed with autism. Tariq had been. Tariq's family described him as a happy and energetic boy. But despite this, they also searched desperately to cure him, eventually subjecting him to 10 different kinds of quack medical therapy, including hyperbaric chambers. Now, Fitzpatrick makes this incredibly important note when he writes about this in his book. Quote, "This is characteristic of the unorthodox biomedical approach, which recommends a wide

• 1:00:39Robert Evans?

  range of interventions, which are often pursued simultaneously. This makes any judgment of which treatment may be working or causing adverse effects impossible." And again, it's one of those things, you're a parent, you're terrified, there's a, you want everything, give them everything, try everything.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want everything possible, yeah.

• 1:00:55Robert Evans?

  But like, that's not how medicine works. If you give them everything, you don't know what's working or not, right? There's a reason why you're like, well, we're gonna try one thing, we'll see what happens, then we'll try another, you know? Because otherwise, it's not satisfied, but you just can't do it any other way, right?

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  It's like that old sailor saying, right? Like, if you can't tie a good knot, tie a lot of bad ones, right?

• 1:01:17Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  It feels like that. But, but, I mean, I was just thinking about like, the IV aspect of it, like, IV looks like the most scientific of those things, right?

• 1:01:25Robert Evans?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Like, if someone prescribed you a cream, like, you wouldn't pay as much.

• 1:01:29Robert Evans?

  This is serious medicine.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, this is real science happening, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:31Robert Evans?

  It's just more dangerous for your, again, small child.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Oh, my god, yeah.

• 1:01:36Robert Evans?

  Now, none of these interventions are based in sound medical science, or any scientists at all, science at all, and they don't work. So, Tariq's family, as they're trying, they're putting him in hyperbaric chambers and shit, they continue to shop around for experts and diagnoses, and eventually they find themselves leaving the UK, crossing the pond to seek treatment in the United States, which is how they wind up seeking out Dr. Anju Uzman, director of the True Health Medical Center in Naperville, Illinois.

• 1:02:03Robert Evans?

  Now, Dr. Usman happily diagnosed Tariq with heavy metal poisoning. Specifically, she blamed his case of autism on very high aluminum levels. Now, actual blood tests didn't support this. He had low levels of iron. He did have a slightly elevated lead level, although we'll talk about why. It's not because he necessarily had normally a high lead level. There's no evidence that his aluminum levels were raised at all. We don't really know why she came to this conclusion. But still, he was prescribed an extensive series of chelation treatments, which would ultimately end in his death. Now, Dr. Anju Usman is the, still to this day, as far as I can tell, the director of the True Health Medical Center,

• 1:02:45Robert Evans?

  which brags on its website to have provided integrative and biomedical treatments that enhance traditional medical care since 2003. Her bio on the website says that she got her degree from Indiana University Medical School and carried out a residency at a family practice in Cook County Hospital, Chicago. She writes, "During residency, I had my first daughter, who had severe food allergies and asthma. My second daughter, who was born shortly after, was diagnosed with juvenile onset diabetes. My third daughter had chemical sensibilities to environmental substances like cleaning agents, perfumes, pesticides, and synthetic clothing. Even with my extensive education and training, I felt ill-equipped to handle their medical issues. I began questioning my role as a physician and healer." Now, she, that's obviously a difficult situation.

• 1:03:30Robert Evans?

  It's never, if I was a sick kid with horrible asthma, I have sympathy for that. It's scary, right? She claims that this experience as a mother led her to shift her attention to treating the underlying cause of the disorders rather than the symptoms. And again, she talks about her extensive education. None of it is in doing this. Being a family practitioner does not treat, like, teach you how to cure asthma. You know? That's just not how it works.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:58Robert Evans?

  That's, that's like, you know, I'm, I'm an expert race car driver, which is how I know how to drive an 18-wheeler for 37 hours. Like, no, there's a different skill. There's maybe some ways in which they correlate, but honestly, I would prefer a truck driver do that job.

• 1:04:16Robert Evans?

  She worked as an alternative health clinic called the Pfeiffer Medical Center in Warrenville, which was named after Carl Pfeiffer, a researcher who the CIA had paid to carry out LSD mind control studies as part of MKUltra. So, great namesake for the Pfeiffer's Medical Center. No notes.

• 1:04:35Robert Evans?

  Cool.

• 1:04:37Robert Evans?

  I will say, Dr. Usman's children's allergies were more significant even than she writes on her bio for the center, and I'm not blaming her for that, I understand why, because her three daughters all suffered severe allergic disorders. One had conjunctivitis so bad it caused cellulitis in her eyes, and her eldest daughter Priya died in 2003, two years before Tariq came to her clinic after an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts. So, what we've got here is a legitimately traumatized mother who was trained in medical science, but like, not the kind she's gonna be practicing. And she can't really accept that sometimes horrible things happen to your kids, and that sucks. So, she goes on a crusade after concluding that aluminum toxicity causes everything from allergies to autism.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  And so, she's just like, over-prescribing for everyone to save every kid, essentially.

• 1:05:26Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I think that's kind of what's going on here.

• 1:05:28Speaker 02

  Kind of comes from a good place.

• 1:05:29Robert Evans?

  It comes from like, I understand how you got here, but you are just going to compound harm, you know?

• 1:05:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it feels like a different type of horrible than like, the person who was sending text messages about the kid in the chamber.

• 1:05:43Robert Evans?

  Right, right, right. Get as many bodies in this chamber, although, actually, she has a, she's got a sketchy history with hyperbaric chambers, we'll talk about that. So, Usman was a member of DAN, and a fellow DAN doctor, Kenneth Bach, agreed with her about aluminum. He has noted that he's disappointed that she hasn't really published much of anything about her findings on aluminum, which I suspect is because there aren't them. In a bio for her clinic, Dr. Usman engages in common biomedical practitioner tactics of lumping every issue she can name together and insinuating, "Hey, these all might be caused by the same environmental toxin," which in her case, is aluminum poisoning. Quote, "I wanted to know more about why my children, and so many other children and

• 1:06:25Robert Evans?

  adults in epidemic proportions, are suffering from chronic degenerative autoimmune disorders such as asthma, allergies, arthritis, diabetes, OCD, mood disorders, attention deficit disorder, ADHD, and autism spectrum disorders." Now, like a lot of these people, Dr. Usman considers ADHD to be part of the autism spectrum. And again, mainstream medical science doesn't really feel this way. On True Medical's website, she provides us with a clear idea of how she and her peers view people with autism. Quote, "The mission in opening True Health Medical Center came from my journey to help my own children with these chronic disorders to lead productive and healthy lives. This simple dream has been shattered with for so many families." Right? It's again, this idea, nobody with autism, no kid can ever live like a happy life. And like, I don't know,

• 1:07:10Robert Evans?

  maybe if you weren't drugging them, more would. I don't know if Tariq Nadama would have ever been productive in like, the capitalist sense of the word. But again, his family described him as a happy, energetic child. So at least that was in the cards for him until quack biomedical treatments killed him. As I explained last episode, Dr. Usman had diagnosed him with heavy metal toxicity, despite there being very little evidence that we have that that was the case. Now, one widespread belief among parents in this community is that by the time a kid is three or four, you don't have much time to reverse the damage that they believe causes autism. So time is of the essence, which is why you have this shotgun approach to extreme therapies. One of my sources for these episodes was a Chicago Tribune

• 1:07:50Robert Evans?

  article, which quotes Dan, affiliated pediatrician, Dr. Elizabeth Mumper, when she testified before federal court that, quote, "We feel some urgency that we can't wait for 10 or 20 years." And that urgency is what leads to treatments like this. So Dr. Usman recommends Tariq undergo EDTA therapy, which is like, that's a specific type of drug you could do chelation with. The treatment is administered by a different doctor at the center named Roy Carey. Roy is, again, a retired ENT surgeon. So none of this is within what you'd call his wheelhouse. In 2005, Dr. Carey was 68. He was not yet a listed DAN practitioner. He did, the year after Tariq died, complete the intensive eight-hour training necessary

• 1:08:33Robert Evans?

  to get that requirement. So that's good. Tariq was his first time administering chelation therapy to a child with autism. Now, Dr. Usman's website includes this very friendly photo of her, looking like a lovely, competent, family doctor. And I want you to see this picture that she puts on her website, as I read this description of the therapy that she endorsed and that Dr. Carey carried out on young Tariq.

• 1:09:00Robert Evans?

  I'm gonna quote from Michael Fitzpatrick's book here. Tariq's records indicate that to administer an intravenous infusion, he had to be restrained by at least four adults using a papoose board. This device is a flat wooden board with attached fabric straps, which are wrapped around the child's body and limbs to prevent struggling during treatment. It was obviously impossible to restrain Tariq for the period of several hours, generally recommended for the chelation infusion. Hence, in contravention of specific cautions issued by the manufacturer, Tariq, suitably restrained, received this medication over five to 10 minutes in a rapid IV push.

• 1:09:38Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:09:39Robert Evans?

  So they are strapping him to a board, holding him down. And instead of, again, the safest way is like do a pill or a cream, the least safe way is an IV. But when you're even doing an IV, it should take hours? Because you don't want to do this too fast. They are shotgunning hours worth of medication into his body, and his five-year-old body, in five to 10 minutes, while he's strapped to a board.

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:10:01Robert Evans?

  So we have known for a long time that this is bad, right? Doing EDTA, even if you do it properly, you can, people can develop irregular heart rhythms and have seizures or even die. This is why the standard of IV care is a slow IV infusion. But because this kid doesn't like being strapped to a board and shot up with drugs, they do the most dangerous version of the thing. And he undergoes this three times. Tariq finally dies after his third infusion. Dr. Carey wasn't even in the room. He gets bored and he leaves it up to another doctor and a nurse to do this.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  He gets bored of the short procedure?

• 1:10:34Robert Evans?

  He doesn't describe it as getting bored. That's my editorializing. But like, he doesn't want to be there, you know? He's 68, whatever. He's on a boat or some shit. Per his medical records, Tariq's released during a subsequent lawsuit. During the IV push, Tariq's mother, Marwa Nadama, said that something was wrong. Dr. Mark Lewis took Tariq's vitals and then Tariq went limp. Nurse Teresa Bicker called 911 and helped with CPR while the ambulance was en route. Tariq was taken by ambulance to Butler Regional Hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

• 1:11:07Robert Evans?

  My god.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  It's just so, it's so horrifying that like, the treatment itself is horrible and then you're shotgunning the treatment and then, and this kid is, is like, strapped down and there aren't professionals there, like the fact that this place was called Mad One One.

• 1:11:24Robert Evans?

  There, but like, they're not doing what they should be, you know? If you had anyone whose expertise was in chelation therapy, they'd be like, what the fuck are you doing? This isn't how we do it. If you're gonna give him this, don't give him this, but if you are, like, give him a pill, fuck.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:39Robert Evans?

  So, a forensic pathologist later identified Tariq's cause of death as diffuse acute cerebral hypoxic ischemic injury and subendocardial myocardial necrosis. Kerry was ultimately charged with involuntary manslaughter. He surrendered his medical license in 2008, but the charges were dropped, although in the summer of 2009, his license was suspended for six months over the incident, and he was placed on a two-year probation. So, that's where we're ending part one.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  I have to say, um, I mean, this is the most I've smiled in an episode about children dying. It's so sad.

• 1:12:21Robert Evans?

  How else do you fucking, I don't know?

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Deal with this, it's awful.

• 1:12:25Speaker 03

  It helps that you yelling Dan is funny every time.

• 1:12:29Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it does. I really knew that that was gonna be a load-bearing part of getting people through these episodes.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  It's been very helpful to me personally.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:12:42Speaker 03

  Mago, you have anything you want to plug before the end of part one?

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  You know, we also talk about terrible things, but our terrible things on Part of Genius are more like the sunniest place to hide your taxes, or like, why Ayn Rand took social security and was a total hypocrite and stuff like that. But it's, I don't know, if...

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  I would love for people to check out the show.

• 1:13:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, listen to the Michelin star episode that you guys did when you brought the show back recently, like, I don't know, it was like a year ago, maybe?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And that was a fun, that was a fun one for me.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  We did a really fun one recently on Pablo Escobar, the guy who was stealing rare bird eggs. And that's recent, too.

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  Excellent. That's fun. That's great. I love that. Robert, should we, should we go?

• 1:13:38Robert Evans?

  Yeah, let's bounce. Let's get the fuck out of here.

• 1:13:40Speaker 03

  All right, that's part one.

• 1:13:45Speaker 03

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube. New episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe to our channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards.

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