Presidential Pardons for Sale! DOJ Whistleblower Reveals All.

Civil rights lawyer Jonathan Gross took a job at Trump’s DOJ hoping to stop the weaponization of government. What he saw once he got there was shocking. Paid partnerships with: Troomy Nootropics: Get 20% off with code TCN20 at Troomy.com/TuckerRedmond Salt: Use code TUCKER for 15% off your first order at https://redmond.com/tucker Defend: Enter code "Tucker" for 20% off your purchase at https://defendcellcam.com Cardiff: Get fast business funding without bank delays—apply in minutes with Cardiff and access up to $500,000 in same‑day funding at https://Cardiff.co/TUCKER TCN: Learn the true history of the broken US-Iran alliance at https://tuckercarlson.com/operationajax Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tucker Carlson?

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 0:18Speaker 01

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• 0:35Tucker Carlson?

  Jonathan Gross, thank you so much for doing this. So you've had this remarkable life and I, I almost hesitate to ask you to start with your bio, but I just, I just want you to explain one thing because I think it frames this, the conversation that will follow. So you're, you're a congregational rabbi in, meaning you have a congregation, you're not just, you know, you're not just a symbolic rabbi, you're actually running a synagogue in Nebraska, in Omaha. And then the next thing you know, you're a lawyer working at DOJ on civil rights cases. Like, how did that, how did that happen? Those are totally separate worlds, I think.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, I was, I was a rabbi and, um, I followed in footsteps of my grandfather, who was also a rabbi. And I did that for about 15 years, 10 years in Omaha, Nebraska. I'm very proud of that career. And then,

• 1:24Tucker Carlson?

  But that's a full career. I mean, that's like a full,

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was,

• 1:27Tucker Carlson?

  You didn't just dabble in it.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  No, no, no, it was a full career. Yeah, absolutely. That's for sure. And, uh, yeah. So then we, we moved back to, um, where my wife's family lives in Baltimore, Maryland. And, you know, at that point, we decided that, um, I wanted to move into something else. I'd always wanted to be a lawyer, I think, since I was in college. And I went back to law school at the age of, I think, 37 or 38 years old, uh, with four little kids. My wife encouraged me and we made it work. And I, um, I, I graduated thankfully and, uh, I went, you know, did the clerkship, making $40,000 a year, working for a judge and filling up water pitchers for the litigants at 40 years old. And then, uh, but thankfully

• 2:10Speaker 02

  I was able to move into a, a pretty good career. I was working at a civil rights firm that was, we were doing pretty high level, uh, civil rights, religious liberties work. And then, um, then January 6th happened and I saw what the government was doing to January 6th defendants and it distressed me and my wife greatly. And, uh, my wife doesn't like me, you know, telling this story so much because she's heard it so many times. But, um, basically we were sitting around one Friday night and we were just praying. And I said, why isn't anybody doing anything? And she said to me, you have to do something. And she encouraged me to quit my job and figure out how to help January 6th defendants.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  And I didn't know any January 6th defendants. I had never practiced criminal law a day in my life. Um, but I knew that I had to help. So I just, me and my wife together.

• 3:04Tucker Carlson?

  I, I mean, a mother of four small children, all, all your kids are at home, right? At this point?

• 3:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:12Tucker Carlson?

  That's not the person who typically encourages her husband to quit his job and go into something with like no, no real prospects of getting paid. Like, why would she do that?

• 3:20Speaker 02

  Because she's an extraordinary woman with a deep, uh, faith in God. And she encouraged me to do that.

• 3:25Tucker Carlson?

  Ah, that's just wonderful. So I just, you told me that at breakfast. It made me emotional. I just wanted to, I just wanted to get that on tape because that's, that's incredible. So what happened next?

• 3:35Speaker 02

  So I turned my eyes towards my father in heaven and I said, I know you want me to do this. I don't know what to do. And, uh, it's, it's a long story. A few things led to the other. And, uh, ultimately it came because I met Marjorie Taylor Greene, who was one of the most unbelievable advocates for January 6th defendants. Uh, as a congresswoman, there wasn't much that she could do, but whatever she could do, she did. And, uh, one of them was to introduce me to people. And she, um, she got me involved in J6. I got my first, uh, defendants through her. And then I tried to help as many as I could. And they started calling me from all over the country and I represented, uh, over 20.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  And I, I advised probably close to a hundred, uh, of J6 defendants. I tried to help everybody that I could. And, um, some people I charged nothing, some, um, I, you know, charged a nominal fee what they could afford. And, and we, uh, and, you know, and, and I'm very proud that I was, I did that. It's, and, um, it was, we did it for, all the way up until January. I had a trial scheduled for January 21st, 2025, which was canceled because, uh, President Trump pardoned people. But they were arresting people until December of 2025. Um, they, they would have gone, I mean, December of 2024, they would have gone forever with, uh, with arresting people. So, um, so then when President Trump was

• 5:01Speaker 02

  elected and, um, I did everything that I could to try and get into the DOJ because President Trump had expressed that he wanted to, uh, get to the bottom of this weaponization that was going on. And, uh, and, and through also a miracle of God, I was somehow appointed by President Trump to be senior counsel to Harmeet Dhillon, who was nominated and confirmed as the Assistant Attorney General for Civil Rights.

• 5:27Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  And that's, that was my position at, uh, at DOJ.

• 5:30Tucker Carlson?

  Amazing. So 10 years before you're a rabbi with a congregation in Omaha, and now you're an advisor to the head of the Civil Rights Division, Harmeet Dhillon.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:44Tucker Carlson?

  Who I should say, at the outset, I've known for decades, who was our family lawyer. Um, and I advocated strongly for her to get that job. Not that it made any difference, but I certainly wanted her to get that job. And, um, so I should just say that upfront. I've always been very pro Harmeet Dhillon. And, um, so I'm glad that that's where you wound up. So what happened then?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  So, uh, I had, uh, one agenda when I was in DOJ and that was to get to the bottom of, uh, weaponization. And one of the things that I, uh, was trying to get into government, I, I thought that it would be great if President Trump would, um, appoint me somewhere within the United States Attorney's Office for the District of Columbia. And that way I could lead the Capitol Siege Unit. The Capitol Siege Unit was this special unit that they created to go after J6ers for four years. Now, mind you, there's no, there was no BLM riot unit. There was no, uh, anti ICE protester unit. They did this special for J6. And I could easily, in my mind, come up with at least a billion dollars that was, this thing was funded to. And it drew resources from all over the country, all

• 6:50Speaker 02

  50 states, from FBI to DOJ to US Marshals and local law enforcement, um, and even media propaganda, the press releases that were all over the, every local paper was tipped off to, uh, every misdemeanor grandma, you know, for, to destroy their lives gratuitously. So I said, you know what? Put me in charge of the Capitol Siege Unit. I'm the biggest expert on J6 in the DOJ. And let me open it up and let's find out who gave the orders. And let's find out how this happened and make sure this never happens again.

• 7:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would have been a great, uh, thing.

• 7:21Tucker Carlson?

  You mean, it didn't happen?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  They closed the Capitol Siege Unit immediately. And, um, and that, and, and they buried all that stuff. And it's like, I always say, like Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark at the end, where they just kind of like take the ark and they put it into some warehouse. So that's where, that's where all this stuff is. They hope to bury it. And, um, and they just want to move on. And, um, so, so that wasn't happening. So I was in DOJ and, you know, I got involved to different assignments.

• 7:48Tucker Carlson?

  Were you surprised?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  I was shocked. I was shocked. I was, um, I, I thought that President Trump, as a victim of this, would have made this a priority. And I was hoping that this would be something that,

• 7:58Tucker Carlson?

  How long did it take for you to discover that it was not a priority?

• 8:01Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, a couple of days.

• 8:03Tucker Carlson?

  Couple of days?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I just, you know, there was nobody there who, who kind of shared my sense of urgency. I said, guys, we have only four years to do this. I mean, we have to do this. And I, you know, everybody, I, my wife and I always joke that we're only invited to dinner parties once. Cause you know,

• 8:21Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I've been there, Rabbi.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  You get me started on J6 and I like, I, uh, I'm never ending. And, um,

• 8:31Speaker 02

  And I was like, even from the very beginning, I, hi, my name's Jonathan Gross to my colleagues, you know, and J six, like, what are we doing about it? But not just J six. Remember, my, my interest in J six was because this could happen to anyone. This was like, you know, this was just so bad. So I said, we need to, while President Trump is in office, this is all we've got. And not only that, I assume that this is a priority because this is what he campaigned on, draining the swamp and ending this kind of weaponization. And this is what his, I would think his base would want. And to get to the bottom of it, because ultimately, you look, the J sixers, in the end of the day, they went to DC and frankly, went from the ellipse to the Capitol because President Trump told them to. I mean, and President Trump himself is a January sixer. He was charged with one of the January six charges.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  So I would have thought that this would have been a priority, number one, to, to get rid, find out what the hell happened and, and go after it. And just, like I said, I'm not even interested about necessarily going after the bad guys. I just, I don't want them to work there anymore. I, you know, and, you know, should people go to jail or things like that? Look, that's for, that's secondary. The first thing is to make sure that this cannot happen again. That you don't have this unchecked power of federal prosecutors to be able to do something like this, to demonize a whole class of people and use the media to, to destroy their lives, to taint the jury pool, keep it in DC, to create all kinds of crazy presidential law that if this would be applied to anyone, they

• 9:58Speaker 02

  would say, this is the most unfair process I've ever experienced. And the process itself destroys you so that even if you come out innocent on the other side, which is almost impossible, but to the extent that you do, Google your name forever and, you know, and nobody believes you. And to the, to the extent that you even were able to be that 1% who defeats the government in federal prosecution, then people just say you had a good lawyer or you got off on a technicality, they'll still assume your guilt. Nobody will ever, there's this presumption of goodwill that still exists for the federal government that if they go after you, then you are guilty. And, and that goes from the minute they show up with the FBI with their guns and lasers and knock down your door. And, and then all the press releases come out and, and they, the indictment is their side of the story.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  And your lawyer tells you, you better not say a word to the media, because if you do, then the government and the judge will punish you more, which happens, just happened to a guy named Michael Castellera, who, he's the victim of weaponization, and he has to report to prison in only a few days. And he's, he's, and he said, I'm not going to go silently. And he went on Diamond and Silk, of all people, who were President Trump's earliest supporters. And he went on their show and he had the temerity to accuse the government of, of weaponization. So the government wrote in the sentencing memo, when deciding what his punishment would be, that he should get punished extra because he went on a Diamond

• 11:25Speaker 02

  and Silk and he lied. And he said that we, this was a political hit job on him. And the judge agreed and gave him an extra year.

• 11:35Tucker Carlson?

  In prison.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  In prison, that he's gonna have to serve.

• 11:38Tucker Carlson?

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• 13:55Speaker 04

  Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com/switch.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com.

• 14:25Tucker Carlson?

  So, but it doesn't even make internal sense. So in other words, the government's saying, because you accused me of being corrupt, I'm going to act corruptly and punish you more.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 14:39Tucker Carlson?

  That, and they hear themselves?

• 14:41Speaker 02

  I, I, it's, it's crazy. That happened. I want to mention another case. There was a woman who I've never met. Her name is Tijuana Brown. She was a local councilperson in North Carolina who obviously must have gotten in some kind of dispute, is my guess. But basically, they charged her with a common thing that they're going after nowadays. It's basically like opening up the doors on January 6th, letting the people in and then charging them with terrorism. What they did was, is during COVID, they gave out these PPP loans.

• 15:08Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  And President JD Vance just announced, maybe a couple of weeks ago, that there are 870,000 people that they're going to go after for fraud, for these PPP loans. But basically, the government shut down your business, made you stay at home, made it so you could not earn any money, and then said, oh, but here, we'll give you money. Here are these PPP loans. So people took advantage of it. And lo and behold, some of those people, they're going to say now, well, that was fraud. So this woman, Tijuana Brown, they charged her federally for fraud, for the PPP loans. And no jury is going to remember what the circumstances were from 2021. And, and she, they charged her and her daughters with, they charged Tijuana Brown with only $20,000 of fraud for these PPP loans, which

• 15:51Speaker 02

  is ridiculous that the federal government even went after it. That alone should tip you off that, and the fact that she's a political person should tip you off that there's weaponization afoot. And, and she went on TV and she said, this is political. So her daughters only got probation, but the judge and the prosecutor said she should get more because she had the temerity to say this is political. So she's going to jail now. She has to report for 10 months in federal prison for $20,000 of alleged fraud on these PPP loans, which, which once again, it was, it was basically a tripwire.

• 16:19Tucker Carlson?

  Because she complained about it.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Because she complained about the prosecution.

• 16:23Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  So they wanted to make her a felon. But then once she said this is a political hit job, then they said, we're going to give you extra penalty. We would have given you probation. And I, J sixers, same thing. It's called the trial penalty, is that they said, had you pled, we would have given you probation, but because you decided you had the temerity to exercise your constitutional right to a trial by jury, you caused more time for the court, more time for the prosecutor. This is routine. We're giving you more jail time for that. And, and I have a lawsuit right now that is talking about how the, I'm suing Todd Blanch, and we could talk about that for the, these coercive plea deals, specifically that they did to J sixers. But this is a Stalinist tactic that the government is using, that

• 17:08Speaker 02

  where they coerce plea deals out of people. It's routine. Every person who's ever been indicted for a, for, for, for a federal crime knows that your lawyer will say to you, hey, the government says, if you don't fight this and you don't go to trial, you, you will get less time in jail, or no time in jail. Maybe we'll let you off and we'll just charge you with a felony. So you'll be branded for life a felon. Well, you'll have restitution, but maybe less restitution, that you'll have to pay money to like Wells Fargo or something for the rest of your life. And, but at least you won't have to spend more time in prison. And some people say, no, I'm not going to do that. I, the truth is on my side. And your lawyer said, well, good luck, roll the dice with the DOJ. So you say, fine, I'm

• 17:50Speaker 02

  going to do it anyway. So then the government says, oh yeah? Well, your wife worked for the business, didn't she? Be a shame if she became a co-conspirator and your children were orphaned. So then they get a lot of people to plea and they say.

• 18:03Tucker Carlson?

  This is so evil.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  It happens routinely. Nobody disputes this either. I, okay, so I guess we'll skip to this. I, President Trump was being interviewed, I think in June of this year, by MSNBC. It was right after that whole idea, for one minute, they said, we're going to try and compensate the J sixers. And then, oh, everybody went crazy. So then, he was on MSNBC and they asked him about it. And she said, why should these people get compensated? So President Trump said, these people, these were his words, were destroyed by weaponization and dirty cops. So then she said, yeah, but they all pleaded guilty. And what she means by that is they all signed a statement and swore under penalty of perjury that, that I'm guilty of whatever the government says I'm guilty of. And they signed those statements and,

• 18:48Speaker 02

  and went up in court and, and said, yes, I swear that that's true. So obviously, they're guilty. So President Trump, who's not an idiot, he said, of course they did. They were frightened. They were facing 50 years in prison for misdemeanor charges. So that's why, obviously, they, they pled guilty, not because they were actually guilty. And everybody should know that, especially liberals and leftists who claim that they believe in these things. So President Trump said, quote, J sixers were destroyed by weaponization and dirty cops. So the next day, I started a group with J sixers, and the group is called J sixers were destroyed by weaponization. And we filed a lawsuit called J sixers were, were destroyed by weaponization v. Blanch. And we are not asking for money in that lawsuit.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  All we are asking is that the government investigate those plea deals. To the extent that any is found to be coercive, then they should void those plea deals. And, and I, but basically, we'll just settle for an investigation. And I listed in the lawsuit, it's a 60-page lawsuit, and I listed all these different Stalinist tactics that they used on the J sixers, that they routinely use on American citizens.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  The pre-dawn raids where they bring the press with them and they bring you out in front of your neighbors in handcuffs. You're a law-abiding citizen who's never even got a traffic ticket and all of a sudden they break down your door, your kids are screaming, the guns and lasers pointed at you, they take you out in handcuffs, they rough you up, they throw you in a holding cell, and then a lawyer comes to you and says, whoa, I've never seen anything like this, you better plead fast if you want more of this. They threw people in jail pre-trial. So, we offered to settle for a one-hour meeting. I said, if Todd Blanch will meet with a group of J6ers for one hour, we will drop this lawsuit. And they refused to drop the lawsuit and they filed a motion to dismiss. I have to respond to that in a few days.

• 20:42Tucker Carlson?

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• 21:26Tucker Carlson?

  So if you're ready to give Relight a try, visit redmond.com/tucker, use the code TUCKER for 15% off your first order. Redmond.com/tucker, code TUCKER, 15% off your first order, or you can click the link in the video description, or scan the QR code on your screen. Who is Todd Blanch?

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Todd Blanch is the Attorney General of the United States. He was a lifelong Democrat. He was always a Democrat. I've never seen his voting record, but I assume, based on his party affiliation, that he probably voted for Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, maybe even Kamala Harris for all we know. Obviously, I have no way of knowing that, but, I mean, he was a Democrat. And he worked for the Southern District of New York as a prosecutor. The Southern District of New York Federal Office is, in my opinion, the worst of all of the weaponized offices. They are terrifying. And, and he was there for all eight years of President Obama. During his tenure there, they prosecuted Dinesh D'Souza, who I'm sure you know very well.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I think you've even had him on his show, on your show. Dinesh D'Souza, it was for like $15,000 that he allegedly gave to a lady who he knew for a long time, who was running a doomed Republican congressional campaign in, in New York where she had no chance of winning, and she said to him, Dinesh, come on, we know each other a long time. So he gave her $15,000 and he didn't check with his attorneys to do it properly. So, he was arrested for that. He was held on bond for $50,000, which was multiple times the amount even in question. There was no victim, could barely articulate the crime to the public, and President Trump pardoned him because President Trump-

• 23:07Tucker Carlson?

  And then he went to, he was in jail?

• 23:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was in jail. He was in jail, and he was a felon.

• 23:11Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  And, and I'll tell you, Ted Cruz wrote a book where he talks about weaponization. It's, it's a whole book, I forgot what it's called. It's about, in the subtitle is Weaponization. And he writes that Dinesh D'Souza, after he moved to Texas, he called Ted Cruz, and Ted Cruz was very close with President Trump at the time, this was in his first term. And he says, he said, please, Senator Cruz, could you please bring my case to President Trump and see if you can get me pardoned? Ted Cruz writes this in a book. And Ted Cruz writes, well, I was hesitant because it's really, you know, a pardon is, is really an extreme remedy and, you know, you don't give them out lightly. And, and Dinesh did break the law, and I don't know about it, but you know what, I decided I'll bring it up to President Trump.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  So I was in the car with President Trump and his chief of staff, and I say, and sheepishly, and this is all in Ted Cruz's own words, you could read in the book, he's sheepishly, I said, ah, you know, President Trump, you know, Dinesh D'Souza, you know, he's been treated really badly. So President Trump, without missing a beat, basically says, yeah, you're right. He turns to chief of staff, pardon Dinesh. And then he gets out of the car and that's it. That was the whole thing. And President, Ted Cruz said, I was shocked, I can't believe how quickly he did that. And then the chief of staff turns to me and he says, who? Like, that was, that's in Ted Cruz's book. So, I mean, so President Trump obviously is sympathetic to this, but Todd Blanch was there in the office. Now, was he the prosecutor? No, because I don't, frankly, I think he's a mediocre lawyer and I don't think he was, you know, trusted with things that high.

• 24:36Speaker 02

  But he was there prosecuting other people. What else was going on in that office? If they would go after a guy because he made a movie critical of Barack Obama, and then all of a sudden, fine, Stalinist, you know, show me the man, find me the crime, and he's this high-level, very, you know, famous political personality and he's thrown in jail. Shouldn't we have an investigation into that office? Todd Blanch was in that office during that time period. Those are his friends. It was when Barack Obama was there, with a United States attorney that was Senate-confirmed and appointed by Barack Obama and by the senators, right? Because you can't become the head of one of these offices without the recommendation of the senators. So who was the senators when he was there? Hillary Clinton and, and whoever else at the time was the senator. So, that's-

• 25:20Tucker Carlson?

  Kirsten Gillibrand.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Kirsten Gillibrand, I think she took over Clinton's seat, didn't she? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Schumer, Schumer, Schumer.

• 25:25Tucker Carlson?

  You're right. I'm so sorry.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it doesn't matter, but the point is, is that that's who, who that office was, that's what it was doing. That's enough evidence that that should necessitate an audit into what the hell was going on there. And by the way, go back to the Barack Obama years, because there are people today who, because of those offices and others, you are now branded a felon for life. You could still be in prison, by the way, you know, you, if you're a felon for life, sometimes endless restitution is one of the other collateral consequences of this. I have a client in Montana, his name is Kevin Moore, total political hit job, and we're trying to, you know, deal with the whole thing now. They've destroyed him completely. He was a successful businessman.

• 26:10Speaker 02

  Now he's a senior citizen on social security, and they give him $900 a month, they're taking $200 a month out of his social security for this man. And I'm trying to, you know, get through the whole thing to figure out what the heck is going on. But restitution is something that could destroy you for life. And I can mention lots of other people that, that are in this situation, and it's like people who were making a million dollars a year. I know one man in particular, I'll even say his name, his name is Robert Gribble, and he's in, he's in New York, and he was a lawyer, a phenomenal lawyer, and they needed him because his client was a political hit, and they needed to go after, they, he, the client

• 26:53Speaker 02

  had an absolute defense of advice of counsel, that my lawyer said it's okay. So the DOJ says, no problem, we'll just make your counsel a co-conspirator. So, they got him, they, his, his client, by the way, was acquitted of the very conspiracy that he was convicted of. And the guy was a top lawyer, he could have, he, his dream was to be a Supreme Court Justice, and he could have been, he was so smart, and, and he ended up paying restitution to, not like grandmothers or anything like that, and he's still paying it. They're going after his 401K, they've made him destitute, and President Trump could get rid of this with the stroke of a pen, please God if you would, pardon him and others. And, and once again, these are all things, if you looked into SDNY during those eight

• 27:36Speaker 02

  years that Todd Blanch was there in Obama. But it didn't change when President Trump became president, and it didn't change when Biden, it's all the same.

• 27:45Tucker Carlson?

  So how did, how do you think, since you were there for it, you were at DOJ, how did a lifelong Democrat who worked in the most corrupt division in the country, SDNY, how did that guy become Attorney General?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Well, by the way, it gets worse, because this is the way that it works. You, you're in those offices, and then you leave them and you go to white-collar defense at the high level. You see, white-collar defense at the high level, in my opinion, is just lobbying, because they hire all of the former prosecutors.

• 28:18Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  So then, you hire the former prosecutors, and then they know their friends, and then you could horse-trade and, and help people. So, that's, so, so he left and he went to Wilmer Hale, which is a big law firm. Now, Wilmer Hale, at the time he was there, he was a partner there, so was Robert Mueller. Robert Mueller and Todd Blanch were partners, and you could fact-check me if I'm wrong on that one, but they were both partners at Wilmer Hale, and I believe at the same time. And, um, and Wilmer Hale, President Trump, in this term, early in his, uh, like in January, February of 2025, he put out an executive order about Wilmer Hale that says that their clearance is gone. They had clearance, apparently, and they're gone because they're a weaponized,

• 29:04Speaker 02

  uh, you know, complete lawfare firm that is for, you know, all the stuff that we're against, open borders and, and things like that. And, uh, and that, that's Wilmer Hale. So there's an executive order that's still issued today against them. He left Wilmer Hale and he went to Cadwalder, which is no better. It's just another one of these firms. And then eventually he left and, uh, and he got the gig to represent President Trump in, in New York because he was charged with these 34 felonies in New York. Now you would think maybe if he did a great job, he got shut out 34 to zero. They went down, President Trump went down on every single one of those counts. But apparently he gained President Trump's trust at that time and he was appointed first-

• 29:48Tucker Carlson?

  34 to zero, so he didn't succeed as Trump's lawyer?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  No, he failed. He, he was shut out. Yeah, 34 to zero. Did nothing. But I mean, look, in his defense, I mean-

• 29:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, no, it's impossible, but still-

• 29:59Speaker 02

  But, but I say, whatever he charged, I could have done better for cheaper. That's all I'm saying is that, I mean, but I'm saying all he did was profit from weaponization because he was a white collar criminal attorney who profits from the weaponization. They, they don't want anything to happen to the weaponization because it's a revolving door. You may get a prestigious, relatively high paying job when it compares to the rest of the country, uh, job as a prosecutor. Then you, you know, you're making two 50 year maybe with all your benefits and all the prestige that goes along. Then that on your resume, you go to the white collar firms and then you can work as, uh, you know, on the other side of that and you're making millions of dollars from clients like President Trump and others and all these other people. And the more they weaponize, the better businesses. So you're not against weaponization and then, and you make money because, and you're a

• 30:43Speaker 02

  prestigious firm because you're able to get, uh, favorable plea deals for your client because you know the people involved. That's why you hire those firms.

• 30:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  And then, uh, then you go from those jobs, sometimes back to DOJ. Other times you get appointed to high level positions like Todd Blanch and that's, that's where he is and how he got to where he is. Now I, I say to, I always said like, this is the best you could do. You couldn't find anyone who was part of the program. And frankly, they should have hired somebody older who is at the end of their career, who's not afraid of, um, of the, you know, of the attorney grievance commission taking away their bar license or is not afraid of getting smeared in the media and is not afraid of what this will do to your career. Have somebody at the end of their career who's been with you since day one, somebody who's been with you since 2015 or earlier. Why would you take somebody who came on board literally at the last moment? We think about that, like,

• 31:34Speaker 02

  where was Todd Blanch on January 6th, 2021? Was he with President Trump, uh, you know, in Washington? Of course not. He was sitting in New York and, uh, I mean, he didn't have anything to do with the people who actually supported President Trump, who would do anything for President Trump to, so he could, uh, fulfill his agenda. So, and that's routine. If you go, I, I would walk through the halls of DOJ and there are people there who worked for things like lawfare.com, which is a left wing thing, the Brookings Institute, which is another left wing thing. Imagine walking through Joe Biden or Kamala Harris DOJ and finding like high level attorneys from Turning Point USA who are, it would never happen.

• 32:14Tucker Carlson?

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• 32:57Tucker Carlson?

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• 33:23Speaker 04

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• 33:53Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC.com, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 34:23Tucker Carlson?

  So, so this is, like, it's within days of arriving at main justice in Washington that you realize that the swamp is not going to be drained?

• 34:33Speaker 02

  Well, I, I hoped it would, but yeah, I, I realized that I was a lone voice in there and nobody was, uh, was doing it. Yeah. So, so I started, um, first of all, I, um, I volunteered to be the civil rights, uh, representative on what was supposed to be the weaponization working group.

• 34:50Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, I remember that.

• 34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, and now they're claiming, uh, Emily Covington, who's the head of the Office of Public Affairs, she just tweeted at me because I, I tweet about all these, a lot of criticism. And she just tweeted back at me that, um, I was never on the weaponization working group. Uh, I beg to differ. I, I think there's a lot of evidence that's in DOJ about it. And also what happened was, and this was very strange, another thing that was weird about what was going on in there. In, I want to say July of 2025, I'd been at DOJ for a few months and I had been to a few weaponization working group meetings to extent there were any. And, um, and NPR started calling me and started calling DOJ

• 35:32Speaker 02

  asking about me. And I didn't know how I'm, you know, I had no Twitter presence at the time. I, you know, I didn't basically tell anyone. I didn't, I don't even think I told my wife I was on the weaponization working group. And, um, I didn't answer them at all. I don't know if DOJ gave a statement or didn't. And I, I went to DOJ, I told them right away that NPR's looking at me. They said, yeah, we're aware. Don't worry about it. And then NPR put out a hit piece about me in July of 2025 and they said I was on the weaponization working group. I don't know how they knew that. And I said that to DOJ at the time. I said, how would they even know that? There must be a leak in this office. And that's not the only time that that happened. And there was no interest in finding out who, uh, who leaked that. But if, if they want to claim I wasn't on the weaponization working group, then somebody ask NPR how they knew I was on the weaponization working group. So-

• 36:16Tucker Carlson?

  What did it do, the weaponization working-

• 36:18Speaker 02

  It didn't do anything. There, I, to my memory, there were only a couple of meetings that, that I went to, they were canceled most of the time. I don't remember any staff person who was, and this could all be confirmed by FOIA, everything. If anybody wants to confirm this, it's all by FOIA. So I'm not divulging any secrets. Um, ask, if you want to ask, ask what the funding was for this. My suspicion is that $0 has been allocated towards this. Um, you know, who are the staff people who are, who are just assigned to it? My suspicion is zero. I didn't meet, I certainly didn't meet anybody. And I go on LinkedIn and try and search and see if there's somebody who says that they're the, the head of the, um, you know, weaponization working group, uh, you know, support staff or something. Mind you, for the Capitol siege unit, there was tons of staff and it's on

• 37:01Speaker 02

  everybody's resume that they were on the Capitol siege unit. So, uh, weaponization working group, uh, it was, there was nothing. They, um, they were supposed to put out quarterly reports on, including January 6th. No reports, to my knowledge, were ever put out on January 6th. And really very few reports at all were put out. And we could talk about that later because they just put one out a couple of days ago. That's complete window dressing. But on this line- When I saw that nothing was happening, I started doing two things. Number one, I started writing reports and I was circulating them via the email so they could all be FOIA'd. Cause I said, we need to be looking into these things. And I would point out all of these stuff, nothing from anything sensitive or anything

• 37:46Speaker 02

  like that. Everything was from my own knowledge as a J six attorney about what we should be looking into. And so I put out a couple and I was told under no uncertain terms, I was called in somebody's office and he said, you need to pause. That's what he told me. And I said, what are we doing? It's weaponization. He said, we know or aware. And he even said, I don't even disagree with what you're writing, just we need to pause.

• 38:12Tucker Carlson?

  Why?

• 38:13Speaker 02

  I don't know. And I did not get an answer. It was also then kind of told, hey, you can't, no January six stuff. I was told that specifically. And I was like, that's crazy.

• 38:23Tucker Carlson?

  By which they meant what? Like no looking into the response to January six, to no kind of helping the victims of it?

• 38:32Speaker 02

  They knew I was crazy about January six and they said, look, it's not what you're here for. No January six, it's not your job. So, so I, so I did that, the reports. And the other thing that I did-

• 38:44Tucker Carlson?

  Were you surprised by this?

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Yes, I was very shocked and I told them that. I said, I'm shocked. Like, what are we here for? And even later, as the story goes, you'll see I expressed that. So I, so I was shocked. And then the other thing that I did was I started bringing victims of weaponization, including January sixers into the office. I had access to main justice, which is the main building, the RF Kennedy, you know, off the, you know, main justice building. And by the way, beautiful building. It's like a palace. Have you been?

• 39:19Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Beautiful courtyard. It literally looks like a palace and it's locked off from the public. It's only for like the select few and that should not be, that building should be open and the DOJ lawyer should be in some dungeon somewhere, frankly.

• 39:29Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, there are no, no people's houses left in Washington.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  No, there are not. And this one, when I, when I first went in, I was just, I was like, I'm in the palace. This is crazy. Beautiful artwork everywhere. The library, beautiful library, everything. And just not for the people, only for a select few, you have to get special permission. And I was very against that. So I said, we're bringing them in. So, so I would bring in victims of weaponization. And one of them, by the way, apparently they liked and it became a very high profile case that, that got, Harmeet did a big press release on, she, you know, and it was, it was one of their signature civil rights cases, but that's because, that's a different story, but it went, it didn't go after government. I wanted to go after prosecutors in that case, but they said, no, no, we don't do prosecutors and we just went after other people.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  But, so-

• 40:19Tucker Carlson?

  So that's really it right there. What you just said is kind of the key to everything.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:24Tucker Carlson?

  So in order to drain the swamp, you really have to oppose the swamp. You have to go against the people with power.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:31Tucker Carlson?

  But the story that you're telling suggests that the people who came in to reform the system immediately became part of the system and then decided to defend the system.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  They didn't even become part of the system. They were the system. Todd Blanch and all of his deputies and everything like that are prosecutors. That's where they drew them from. They brought them from different United States attorney's offices from all over the country. So they are, it's not like they, like me, that they came from defending J sixers and were private practice and supported President Trump and everything like that. No, these are federal prosecutors in different offices who were just either competent prosecutors who they figured, you know, this is a guy low in his career and we'll give him a promotion. And that's, that's who is running the, the show. It's former prosecutors. That's, that's really what it is.

• 41:14Tucker Carlson?

  What could, I mean, this is way above my pay grade, but like, what could possibly motivate a new administration that had been the victim of those very same prosecutors to put those people in charge? Like what, what could that be?

• 41:26Speaker 02

  I cannot figure it out for the life of me. I don't understand. President Trump, in his public statements, is very sympathetic to J six, to weaponization. And he's, you know, it's not enough in my opinion, but he has dripped out some pardons to people. And so Henry Queller and his wife, they were, he was a congressman and a Democrat. And President Trump said, this is, they went after him only because he broke with the Democrats on immigration. That's what President Trump said. So President Trump pardoned Henry Queller, rightly in my opinion. And, and, but nobody in the Southern District of Texas got punished. Obviously somebody in the Southern District of Texas or in Washington DC gave the order

• 42:09Speaker 02

  to go after a congressman and his wife because they broke with the Democrats on immigration. So good, President Trump, you pardoned him. Could we fire the people? It's not a secret that you could just go through the thing. One of them was promoted. I just looked on LinkedIn this morning just to make sure before I said it, one of the prosecutors of Henry Queller, who's listed on the case, was promoted. We know that this was weaponization after a political candidate for breaking ranks at the Democrats on open borders. So what is going on? Why wouldn't you fire? And that goes, let me tell you another story. I know I'm going all over the place, but hopefully your audience-

• 42:44Tucker Carlson?

  No, but the theme is coherent.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Okay, good. Well, let me, yeah. So what happened was when I was in DOJ, I'm going all over the place, like bringing cases of weaponization left and right. One case that I brought, and I sent emails about this, was percolating on social media. There was a doctor named Kirk Moore in Utah, who was a hero in my opinion. During COVID, in Salt Lake City where he, his practice was, they were making everyone get the COVID vaccine, including children apparently. And you couldn't go to school, your kids couldn't, and all kinds of things. And there were parents who just didn't want it. They didn't want an experimental drug on their children and they, but they didn't want to also not have them go to school.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  So Kirk Moore, heroically, in the, in the, the spirit of the people who defied the Nazis, and I say that without hyperbole, the people who opposed the government and illegally hid people so that the Nazis wouldn't get them, Kirk Moore said, I'm not going to let them do this to your children. Come to my office. And it was known, you come to his office and instead of giving them the vaccine, he would squirt it out. But he actually, the government said this as a bad thing. He gave the kids a placebo, like because he didn't want the kids, God forbid, to go to school and, you know, somebody say, you know, like, oh, were you vaccinated? They say, no, I didn't get a shot. So he made sure that the kids thought that they got a shot. And that's where we were at that time. It's such a horrifying thought that we forget, right?

• 44:10Speaker 02

  That we were, they were so scared that their kids would give them away and then they would be in trouble.

• 44:14Tucker Carlson?

  So he didn't want the kids to be implicated in this at all. He didn't want them to have to lie.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  Have to lie or to, you know, have to worry about this. And he helped all these families. And somebody must've told somebody that, it got to the government and they indicted him for, you want to know what they indicted him for? Destruction of government property. Because that, that so valuable vaccine that they had millions of things, he didn't give it. He destroyed it instead of giving it to the person. So that's destruction of government property. Cause there was no law that they can get him on, which is, that's the whole thing with weaponization. It's show me the man, I'll find you the crime. Let's figure out how to get him. So he was going to trial in the summer of 2025, six months into the Trump administration.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Dr. Kirk Moore was being charged, led by federal prosecutor Todd Bowden in federal court, and he was facing 35 years in prison.

• 45:14Tucker Carlson?

  No way.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yes. And what happened was, it was all over, there were protests every day outside the courthouse while the trial was going on. It was all over media. There was a bunch of podcasters, one of them, my friend Daniel Horowitz was really all over the story, but many, many people were really trying to get the attention of everybody. And then all of a sudden, and I was, I was sending emails because I said, hey, I'm hearing about this case, you know, Kirk Moore. I was telling people, this is, this is one of many cases that I was telling about. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Then one day out of nowhere, Pam Bondi tweets, I just found out about the case of Dr. Kirk Moore from Marjorie Taylor Greene, who was still in the good graces at that time. This is horrifying. It should never happen.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I'm ordering the prosecution and the, to dismiss the charges against him. They were in the middle of trial. It was going to be a two week trial. They had finished the first week, they were going to do a second week. They just came back to court the next day and they said, go home. And that was the end of it with the stroke of a pen. It was done. And that story tells you so much. One of the things it tells you is that so many people in this country can be freed from this political persecution with the stroke of a pen. They'll tell you, oh, it's a process. You need to go here, you need to fill out your pardon application, it needs to go through this office. And that is a lie. From the very top, either from White House or from the top of DOJ, they could, with the stroke of a pen, end these things. And they're not.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Pam Bondi, to her credit, ended that case when she heard about it from Marjorie Taylor Greene. I applauded it and she actually even brought, I've spoken to Kirk Moore now, a great man. And Pam Bondi brought him to the, to the justice department and spoken. Now he's trying to advocate for other cases. But, but that was going on. And she's saying as Attorney General that she had no idea about the case. Now Todd Bowden was the prosecutor in that case. Okay? You think anything happened to him? He's still there. And I looked at his other cases. There was an individual who I've never met, never spoken to. His name is Nick Cioto.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  During that same period, Nick Cioto was making very good vaccine passport cards, fake ones, that he was charging, he was making like $2 apiece on them or something like that. They found out about him, they charged him. And he didn't break any law and they charged him and they sentenced him. And he definitely, I did the math on his time, he definitely reported to prison while President Trump was already-

• 47:52Tucker Carlson?

  They actually sent him to prison?

• 47:54Speaker 02

  He sent, he was sent to prison and he has to pay some, like tens of thousands of dollars of restitution, which he'll probably have to pay for the rest of his life. And now he's a felon and he spent time in prison. He's probably out now and I read his probation, he's still on probation, he's on very, very strict probation conditions. So now this poor man who, under necessity, created something, you know, and helped people essentially, didn't break any laws, was politically targeted under Biden, continued under Trump, spent his time in prison and now is on probation and is paying restitution for what he did. President Trump could get rid of that with a stroke of a pen. And I'll usually say this at the end of interviews, I'll say it right now. President Trump, if you're watching this-

• 48:36Speaker 02

  You can be the great emancipator. If you look into these cases, you can save tens of thousands of Americans from prison, from being branded felons for life, from endless restitution, from federal indictment. Just turn your eyes inward and look at the DOJ, start auditing office by office, and have outsiders independently review these cases, tell the prosecutors, hands off, and audit them, and you will find tens of thousands of people like Dinesh D'Souza, like Henry Queller, like many of the people that you have said were grave injustice and were indicted, and now their lives are destroyed. You can restore their lives. And if you do that, even if you start now, you still have two

• 49:21Speaker 02

  years, your second term will be known forever as the great emancipation. And 100 years from now, on top of everybody's mantelpiece, of all the people and their families and descendants and communities that you have saved and redeemed from this prison, then they will, they will look up to you like Abraham Lincoln and Moses. And it will be the best thing in your legacy, better than anything else that you could hope for. And you need to start now because we are running out of time.

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• 51:07Speaker 04

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• 51:37Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 52:07Tucker Carlson?

  Well, in order for that to work, there would need to be some systematic effort of the Department of Justice to identify weaponization, identify injustice, and bring those, again, in a systematic way to the White House so the president, who has the unique power to pardon, could do that. Under the current arrangement, which I've heard about in great detail from a lot of people, it's totally haphazard, and it relies on getting the president's attention and convincing him to pardon. And that has allowed an entire economy to grow up, where lawyers approach desperate families and say, for this amount of money, you know, $250,000, half a million dollars, a million dollars, I will get you

• 52:46Tucker Carlson?

  a pardon. And that has allowed people like Alan Dershowitz and a bunch of others, Brett Tolman, to start this sideline business, getting pardons and getting rich doing it. And, and I feel like that's not a justice system.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Uh, you said it. It's created the economy. They, and by the way, so many people are implicated in this right now, and I don't know what assurances they have that if, when there's a new administration, the DOJ is not going to turn around and indict all of those people. And, but, but here's the thing.

• 53:21Tucker Carlson?

  But is that the system as it is now?

• 53:23Speaker 02

  That is 100% what's going on right now. And I will tell you, yes, you can pay for access, but you can't necessarily pay for results.

• 53:32Tucker Carlson?

  Well, exactly.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Usually, yeah, they, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and you just hope. And there's no invoice, there's no bill, it's just 100,000, 500,000. No, the less you charge, the less likely you are to get the gig. You have to charge 500,000 so they know the client, the desperate client thinks you're serious. I have Todd Blanch on my speed dial. I know clients, yeah, I, they've told me that they've hired people, not my clients, then, and they say, I have Todd Blanch on my speed dial, hire me, I'm going to get it right to his desk. Don't worry about it, you'll be fine. They pay something like 300 to 500,000 dollars with a million or $2 million success fee if they get the charges dropped or they get the pardon. Now, if that allegation is out there, and I didn't make that allegation, you didn't make that allegation, that's been in the New York Times. I mean, there, there-

• 54:13Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I know people who've paid the money.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  I, so do I. I know lots of them. But here's the thing, President Trump could destroy all those, he could destroy the economy by just opening it up and letting even people who don't have $500,000 get access. Do, just, you know, inflation, you know, supply and demand. If, if everybody has access, then nobody will pay for it.

• 54:32Tucker Carlson?

  But access is something that's impossible to quantify, and it's impossible to, you know, you say, I have access. Well, how do I know if you do? Right? So I'm going, so if you're a famous person, and the people I know selling access are well-known, then, like, I'm a desperate family, I want my husband out of prison, I'll pay you.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 54:51Tucker Carlson?

  And, but it's so predatory.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  And I'll tell you, it works the other way also, because, and I wanted to get into this. So I represent a group that is being completely treated unfairly. They're called Return to the Land, and we'll talk about this more, I hope.

• 55:07Tucker Carlson?

  Return to the Land.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Return to the Land is a group of people who's, Return to the Land is actually a, just an association of 1,000 people nationwide, that it's like an online community for people who identify with European heritage.

• 55:20Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  So a small group of them started an intentional community in rural Arkansas where they raise goats. It's like, it's a few families, it's a, you know, a couple dozen people. And, and they're, they're struggling to raise money. They, they don't, they don't have anything. And, and they're just trying to raise their goats. And they do their podcasts where they talk about their philosophy, which the Justice Department may or may not agree with, or whatever, but it should have nothing to do with their activity. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, the Justice Department, not, it starts with the Arkansas government, and then goes to the Justice Department and HUD, they hit them with four separate, ongoing nebulous investigations. One of them is an Arkansas securities investigation, where

• 56:02Speaker 02

  they're not even a security, but it's just an open-ended investigation forever. Now, it is impossible to do business if you are under the microscope of a state or federal agency for fraud, essentially. Now, they have done nothing, and they've never been accused of actually even doing anything. And that's been ongoing for a long time. Now-

• 56:24Tucker Carlson?

  I'm confused. So these are people who want to live near each other because they have something in common, which I think was allowed in the United States, and there are plenty of communities, in fact, some, honestly, some of the best communities, of which I'm not a part, and not allowed in, but some of our best communities are like that. And the government is going after them on what grounds?

• 56:43Speaker 02

  That's the problem also. They're claiming that there's a Fair Housing Act violation, but they don't sell housing. They're, they don't advertise for housing. And the government barely has even accused them. There's not even been a complaintant. And just to give you an idea-

• 56:59Tucker Carlson?

  So there's no, they're not even identifying a victim of this?

• 57:02Speaker 02

  No, there's no victim. There, there's one civil lawsuit against them, of a lady who tried to join the membership organization of 1,000 people, and she was a leftist activist, and they, they declined to let her in. She never approached the people who actually own the land, never approached them, doesn't allege that she even approached them, and she's suing them civilly. So I'm representing them, I'm defending them in the civil lawsuit. But we've also sued Harmeet Dhillon and others because they've opened up all these open-ended investigations with no identifiable-

• 57:32Tucker Carlson?

  Harmeet Dhillon has?

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Harmeet Dhillon, who they're claiming that they're solving all the DEI for all these activists and everything that, you know, that have been inside the government for all these years. And, and by the way, Greg Trainor, who we're also suing, he's the head of HUD, he's, he wrote an article, "Make Fair Housing Fair Again," or something of that nature. And he wrote that in April of 2025, around the time that we were also being investigated, that, that these guys were being investigated. And he said that it's been a racial spoil system. It's been operating like an NGO. It picks winners and losers. It goes after enemies for free speech. He said that. Meanwhile, his agency is going

• 58:13Speaker 02

  after them. Two separate investigations from the federal government, DOJ Civil Rights and HUD. Harmeet Dhillon's side the one in HUD, in DOJ.

• 58:22Tucker Carlson?

  On what grounds would Harmeet Dhillon go after these people in Arkansas?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  She probably doesn't even know about it. It's some deep stater who has an agenda, but at the same time, she goes on all these shows all the time, and she's saying that we're cleaning up all the anti-white discrimination. This is absolutely anti-white discrimination. You want to hear something? Their private membership organization, large one's called Return to the Land. Now, that's not what their intentional community is called, it's a totally separate entity. There is a, a black group called Black to the Land.

• 58:53Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  It's almost identical. They're not under, you know, Fair Housing Act. You have to be black to be a part of it. It says on their website, "We're for black people to get away and to have safety and, you know, and to have their own community," which I support. And the same way I support my clients. But this only goes one way. There were complaints, there were actual complaints-

• 59:15Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, Harmeet has not gone after them?

• 59:16Speaker 02

  To my knowledge. I haven't seen anything about Black to the Land. There's no, no case number that I can see. I mean, I'd be surprised. Maybe in Discovery we'll learn, no, no, we're doing this fairly. But I suspect that they're not. I'm Jewish. There are Jewish communities that advertise in Jewish newspapers that say, "We want to start intentional communities in, you know, the, in North Carolina or wherever, and come and join us, and, and it'll be great." And all the amenities that you would need. There's a community in Texas called Epic. And Epic, there's been, there were actual complaints against Epic, real complaints.

• 59:47Speaker 02

  And Harmeet opened an investigation and two months later she closed it. Now Epic is a massive development that's like a $40 million project or it's raised that much money and it's hundreds and hundreds of actual units that they're building and developing.

• 1:00:01Tucker Carlson?

  Who's it for? I've never heard of it.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  They say it's for Muslims. It's gonna be surrounding a mosque and it's very similar to, let's say, well, it would be a Jewish community and it's for Muslims and it's a big development that they're doing. It's called Epic and it's in Texas. So DOJ got a complaint, an actual complaint. They opened up an investigation. They looked into the investigation and two months later Harmeet said, you know what? We don't see anything here, we're closing it. Now, they are a massive project where there was an actual complaint. We are, you know, my clients are a small intentional community on an undeveloped piece of land. They haven't gotten any permits. They haven't, they're just like living in homesteading and they, you know, they live in cabins and people come and they visit.

• 1:00:44Tucker Carlson?

  And the Civil Rights Division is pouncing on them? So what are the most powerful interests in the world really fear? It's not climate change, it's the truth. They don't want a population that knows it or repeats it. They want a population that is docile and easy to command. They maintain power by distracting you with some sparkling new version of current events. They show you a small slice of the whole picture. So over 50 years with this in mind, we've been told the very same story about Iran. It's a nation of religious nuts who hate our country because we're free. They chant "Death to America." We never ask why. Well, here's what they don't tell you. Iran was once one of this country's closest allies, but something changed. Before even the hostage crisis of 1979, what was that? It's worth knowing. We spent weeks studying America's relationship with the Rom.

• 1:01:27Tucker Carlson?

  We combed through declassified CIA documents, we talked to a lot of experts. And what we found is fascinating, it reveals a lot. Watch Operation Ajax, the true history of the broken US-Iran alliance. It's now at TuckerCarlson.com.

• 1:01:40Speaker 02

  The Civil Rights Division is pouncing on them. They don't advertise anything for sale. Epic advertised they did for sale and I'll tell you what worse, listen to this, this is crazy.

• 1:01:49Tucker Carlson?

  This is really...

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  This is all in the lawsuit. HUD, when they did their investigation, they sent us a letter and they accidentally put into our envelope a letter to Epic that was supposed to go to Epic, the Muslim community in Texas. Now, we're in Arkansas, we got our letter that was dated the same day. We eventually got our letter. Their letter is very apologetic. It says, "We're so sorry, there's a complaint. We have a statutory duty to investigate every complaint that comes against you, but here are all your rights and it's gonna be a limited investigation and if we don't find anything after a certain time, we're gonna close the investigation. And if you want, we can conciliate," which means that we could, you know, maybe we'll come to some kind of agreement.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  In the end, Harmeet dismissed the Civil Rights Investigation against them because they, three things I think they said, they said they hadn't gotten any permits, they're still in the early stages of planning and they're gonna amend their advertising to say it's for everyone. My clients got none of that. Their letter was accusatory from the start, it's no victim at all. They, the, it goes, one of the things that they're investigating, or two of the things that they're investigating are private solo member LLCs, that one's a handyman business, the other's an excavation company that just belonged to these people. And one of them was a fictional entity that doesn't even exist and it's just like, "You did this wrong."

• 1:03:20Speaker 02

  Not only that, and they all got this all from activist journalists who sent this to them. It all came from activist journalists.

• 1:03:26Tucker Carlson?

  Journalists.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  Activist journalists. They got screenshots from the internet archive that, you know, in other words, they just like were digging deep and saying, "You one time on Return to the Lands website," mind you, they're an intentional community, there's nothing to do with it, they have no website, they don't do any advertising. Return to the Lands is a private membership organization that's totally First Amendment protected and they, so they say, "Oh, we found these screenshots where you said something that could be construed possibly as that you guys are somehow advertising for these guys." And then, and by the way, ignoring that there was a big legal disclaimer on the website that said, "We are not a, you know, for a sale of land."

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Now, all of these investigations, four separate investigations, okay? Two from Arkansas, one of them Securities. Securities investigations are incredibly expensive because you need a very specialized attorney to deal with. And then two Civil Rights, one from HUD and one from Civil Rights. All four still open right now, open-ended, have not found anything wrong, zero, that's undisputed. And they wouldn't conciliate with us. They wrote us a letter to conciliate, they said, "We'll let you out of this if you give $40,000 to a victim compensation fund that we get to decide who the victims are and give it out." That's the racial spoils system.

• 1:04:47Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  That Greg Trainor, $40,000, $10,000 fine.

• 1:04:49Tucker Carlson?

  But they've never been accused of victimizing anyone.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  Nobody. $40,000 to a victimization fund and a $10,000 fine. Now, no, who's gonna give out the money? Who's gonna administrate it? Where's that money gonna go? No information on that. Greg Trainor, the head of HUD, President Trump's appointee, he said this, he said that it's a racial spoils system where essentially they go after these white people and they collect money from them, extract money at gunpoint, and then they just distribute it to whoever the heck they want to distribute it to, even though nobody ever complained. And they wanted $50,000 from these people who barely can raise any money at all, who have nothing. I mean, they are bleeding money for all these investigations. And they called me up and they told me about their case and I said, "Definitely, I wanna be a part of this because I think that this is gonna be one of the great civil rights cases of our generation because it's horrifying."

• 1:05:36Tucker Carlson?

  Has anyone taken your side in this? Anyone with power anywhere?

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  No, and that's what I'm, getting back to access, I know Harmeet though and I have her email address, you know, to DOJ. I know the people underneath her, I know who's in charge of special litigation, who is the one signing off on all this stuff. I've emailed them and I said to them, "Hey guys, we need to do something about this case right now. This is horrifying, it's a bad look for DOJ. If you're trying to say that you're ending anti-white discrimination, I guess you could start first by ending it within the DOJ and getting rid of this." So, no answer. Email, before I filed the lawsuit, email after email after email, no answers.

• 1:06:15Tucker Carlson?

  They just ignored you completely?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  They just completely ignored me because you know what? I don't have access, so I can't, so my clients...

• 1:06:20Tucker Carlson?

  But you just worked there this year.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  I, well, I've been a little critical of them, I don't know if you know about that, but...

• 1:06:26Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, we'll get to that, but the point that you're making is not related to anyone's personal grudges or personalities. I mean, you're describing a principle that Trump ran on.

• 1:06:35Speaker 02

  I mean, I would think it would be, President Trump himself said that J6ers have been, they were destroyed by weaponization and dirty cops. What does that mean? If he has any input into what the DOJ should look like, then we should be, that should be a priority. We should be looking it out and carving it out. And you know what? A lot of people would have to be fired from DOJ because hundreds and hundreds of lawyers were brought from all 50 states to be part of this Capitol siege unit. The FBI agents, if I showed you what I know from the discovery of some of my clients, the amount of surveillance that they were subjected to by the FBI, the amount of agents that participated in predawn raids on people, not even for misdemeanors. Siaka Masakwa, you know who he is?

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  He's, so Siaka was a J6er, he walked into the building for 30 seconds, a cop saw him, said, "Hey, turn around." He said, "Okay, no problem," and he walked and he left and that was the end of it. And he didn't know he wasn't supposed to be there. They got him on, before they even arrested him, on a search warrant, they, and they were surveilling him, he was speaking at political events, they were surveilling him at political events and, I mean, so many people. And that was all the FBI field office in Los Angeles. And I could breathe out a 100-page report about the FBI field office in Los Angeles and why it should be shut down. And on the same topic, the FBI field office in Minneapolis, that allowed BLM, that allowed,

• 1:08:00Speaker 02

  you know, anti-ICE protests to attack federal officers, all these things, never went after people. And then, you know, when they wanted to go after Don Lemon because he walked into a church or something like that, so for that, people left. They said, "Oh, I'm not gonna take part in this," right? All of those people, there were J6ers, including Victoria White. Victoria White was a single mom from Minnesota who went to Washington DC. She's on video heroically, there were these Antifa-like guys in black block who were trying to smash a window and nobody was doing anything because people were scared of a provocateur who was actually there with a, you know, to cause harm. That person was never arrested. Victoria, a small, single mother with children at home, tackled the guy.

• 1:08:43Speaker 02

  And yes, it's all on video and starts screaming at him and pushed him away from the building. Then she was caught up in the Malay, she was punched in the face repeatedly by a police officer, Jason Bagshaw, on video. And she was dragged through within an inch of her life, she'll never be the same, she was permanently injured from it. And she was forced to, Laura Logan did a whole piece on Victoria White, I encourage everybody to look at it. She was forced to plead guilty because she had little children who would become orphans and they got her on a felony, a ridiculous felony for, and she absolutely could have gone to trial and I think that she could have been, she, of all the J6ers, she could have been acquitted had they, the judge actually let her show the evidence, didn't matter.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  She pled guilty because, you know, her life was so destroyed by it and everything like that. Then she sued. And the, and the DC court threw it out and said she sued the police for beating the, beating, beating her up. And the, no, no, she pled. And in her plea deal, she basically says that she's an insurrectionist and a rioter and everything like that. So, so her, her lawsuit was thrown out. So I'm saying she was arrested in Minneapolis. That field office that, that refuses to go after BLM, refuses to go after anti ICE, that this anarcho tyranny that people talk about where it's one standard of justice for one political group and another, for another one, that all exists. And you could go office by office by office and show all of this. And

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  that's why J six is such a bad topic for them because it involves every office. There was no office. I, I heard, and I don't want to say this, but that there were a few people in a few offices, there were some brave people who said, when it came to their desk, they said, I'm not going to participate in this. Okay. And that's a very high level, I think. We don't know of anybody who stood up and said, not only am I not going to participate, I'm gonna go to the press and tell you about this. That never happened. So why can't we start investigating it? We have the White House. The White House is the, our only chance of gaining the, the executive branch. And President Trump is the best possible candidate we could ever hope for because he was a victim of it. If we don't go after it now in these

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  next two years, we will probably never have another chance.

• 1:10:55Tucker Carlson?

  Um, so I just want to cycle back a little bit to your experience at DOJ. Like you come in, I think with the purest motives. You come in because you've been so focused on the injustices done to the J six defendants. And you find out in short order that there's not going to be like a real effort to help them. You're working for another, I think, idealistic appointee, Harmeet Dhillon of the Civil Rights Division. Then you're working directly for her, I think. What are your conversations like with her?

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  So, uh, you know, I was, um, senior counsel, which, um, I think sounds fancier than it is. Essentially, I was, you know, there were, there were a lot of us, but essentially I really dealt with her through, um, Chief of Staff and her deputies. So I didn't interact with Harmeet so much, although like I think I said earlier, I definitely think that she liked me before she didn't because, um, you know, I mean, she, you know, whenever I did interact with her, it was always positive. And, uh, and I liked her frankly, and I, um, and she, uh, she, um, you know, she brought me as her plus one to the, uh, the very select uh, Hanukkah party, uh, you know, at the White House. So, and that was in December,

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  that was shortly before I left. Um, so what happened was, uh, I was going around the building and I wasn't going directly to Harmeet, but I was going to anybody who would listen and I would bring in victims of weaponization. I brought in J sixers. I brought Enrique Tarrio into the building. Enrique Tarrio is a J sixer who was charged without even being there. And he, um, he was sentenced to 22 years in prison for, um, for conspiracy to obstruct a official proceeding. And he wasn't even there. And, uh, his allegation frankly is horrifying. His allegation that he makes in a lawsuit, and he's said this publicly many times, I, I think you should have him on your show because he has a very compelling

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  story, was that, um, he was, uh, basically thrown in prison pre-trial. He was arrested very early. And a prosecutor said to him essentially, uh, that, you know, all this can go away if you will just implicate President Trump and will, um, will basically say the President Trump put you up to this, which was absurd and would have been a lie. He did not do that. As a result, they held him pre-trial for years. They shuttled him around the country, which is called diesel therapy, which is a horrible, uh, routine procedure that they do where they shuttle you from jail to jail because very disruptive. But just when you get settled in one place, they move you to another and, uh, and they do it to kind of shake you up and shake you down essentially. And, uh, and he, uh, he

• 1:13:35Speaker 02

  didn't, um, he, he wouldn't falsely sign a plea deal. And they went to trial and he lost obviously in the DC court where nobody could possibly win. And the judge sentenced him to 22 years in prison. And, um, and, uh, you know, it's a horror.

• 1:13:51Tucker Carlson?

  Two years?

• 1:13:51Speaker 02

  22 years. He got 22 years. Thank God he's, he's out now. Um, so, and he's suing the federal government. He's alleging this. But what, I brought him through the building with others who were also, uh, victims, other J sixers, other people who were indicted for other things that I learned about. And I would take him in, some people were, you know, were interested in the story, but like they weren't, not my problem. I'm not getting involved. I'm not on that. And other people you could tell were just very like nervous because they are prosecutors and they know, in my opinion, that, that these are routine tactics that are used. Enrique's story is not something that is difficult to prove. And it's not like we don't have thousands of people who can attest to it. Thousands,

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  thousands of people. You could fill a stadium with the people that could give testimony on, on the kind of things that he's alleging. So, um, I was bringing people like that around. And then one of them, uh, essentially, maybe I went into the wrong office or something and I got reported on. So, uh,

• 1:14:51Tucker Carlson?

  Got reported on? What does that mean?

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  So I got, uh, I got, um, I, I got a call basically from Harmeet's Chief of Staff and Harmeet wanted to see me about it. And they were, they were, and she said, why are we getting yelled at by, by the ODAG, which is the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, which was Todd Blanch at the time? That office is telling us, why is one of your attorneys going around and, and doing this stuff, whatever it was? So I explained, I said, these are victims of weaponization. I, I had nothing to hide. I, it's not like I snuck people into the building. I, I checked with security. I, their names were, I didn't give them fake names or anything. They had to give their IDs and clear. And I brought them in. And I, I said, these are victims of weaponization and we should bring them in.

• 1:15:33Tucker Carlson?

  Because we're against weaponization, right?

• 1:15:35Speaker 02

  You would think. And then what happened was, uh, I was told by Harmeet in her office where she said, the only reason somebody like that should be coming into the office is with their lawyer to basically give a proffer, meaning they're ready to plead guilty. But, but what you're doing is wrong. And I said,

• 1:15:53Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, what?

• 1:15:54Speaker 02

  I, I said that, I even, I think I even said this to her. I said to her, this is a civil rights issue. You know, we're civil rights attorneys. I said, this is why, I said this. I said, this is absolutely weaponization. So she said, it doesn't matter. We're the DOJ now. And I said, but many, much of this happened under Biden. She said, it doesn't matter. We are the DOJ. We protect the DOJ. And she

• 1:16:18Tucker Carlson?

  She said that out loud?

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  Out loud in front of other people, in front of her principal deputy and her Chief of Staff. And I was shocked. I was stunned. And I said, what is their recourse? And she said to me, they need to hire these people who, you know, have access. And she didn't say those words, but she said, you hired, you know, some person who was friends in the White House or, or otherwise. And then that's how you deal with it. But if they're going to come into the building, it's only with a proffer to plead guilty.

• 1:16:46Tucker Carlson?

  Are you kidding?

• 1:16:47Speaker 02

  That actually, that happens. It was shocking to me. And I

• 1:16:51Tucker Carlson?

  So basically she's saying that not only we're not going to make any effort to reform this corrupt system, our job is to defend the corrupt system. And if you want justice, you have to pay effectively a bribe. I mean, that's basically what, you're paying a lobbyist.

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  I would call it a ransom.

• 1:17:06Tucker Carlson?

  A ransom?

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  Uh, and, and I was very shocked by that. And she does, she does interviews all the time. I hope that this interview gets enough attention. I would love to hear her

• 1:17:16Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, we definitely will.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  I, I, I hope, I would love to hear her side of the story. I've been told that her side of the story is that I was fired for misconduct and unethical things. I have my report that when I, when I eventually quit and I got it. And it says, there's no disciplinary anything on it. It's perfect. And it says at the bottom, thank you for, or your, your service to the Department of Justice is appreciated, or something like that at the, at the bottom.

• 1:17:42Tucker Carlson?

  What would be the unethical, why would it be unethical to bring a victim of weaponization into an agency that had declared its opposition to weaponization?

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  I think it would be unethical for me not to do that. I mean, I, I think that these people are victims. Their lives are destroyed, destroyed. And they, you know, like I said, they're under indictment. What that does to your family, what that does to your community. Uh, their careers are destroyed forever. They can go to prison. They can pay endless restitution. They're branded felons for life. I mean, if I am aware of a case that I think, I look at the case, I review it and I say, oh my gosh, this is absolutely weaponization. There's no articulable crime. There's no identifiable victim. And there's a clear motive that there's some political reason that is obvious on its face. So when I see something like that, I would think that I would be morally obligated and ethically obligated to bring that to the attention of my superiors and to say, we need to do something about this.

• 1:18:38Tucker Carlson?

  You'd be celebrated and rewarded for doing that. Since that's the whole reason people voted for Donald Trump, to drain the swamp and end corruption in Washington. And then you have the head of the Civil Rights Division, whom I've known for decades and have always liked enormously, my personal lawyer, by the way, looking at you right in the face and saying, we are the DOJ. Our job is to defend the DOJ. That really happened?

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Yes, that really happened. And there were two people in the room when it happened. And to the extent, if she denies it, that it didn't happen, You know, once again, what motive did I have? I was not taking money. I never took a penny from anybody for these kinds of things. Why would I bring these people into DOJ, bring them around from office to office? Let her produce the reports that I wrote and show the public what I was doing. I would love to see that. I wrote reports and I sent them to Colin McDonald, who at the time was Todd Blanch's like right-hand deputy, who's now been promoted to the Assistant Attorney General for fraud. And I sent these reports to him and I said, I want you to look into these things. And I told him orally also, other things that I put in email.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  I told him a case I'll mention, I can mention 100 cases all day. There was a guy named Ken Ravinell, who by the way, was a Democrat. He was a black man who grew up in grinding poverty, the children of sharecroppers. He grew up to become one of the best criminal defense attorneys in all of Maryland and he won. And the United States Attorney's Office, in my opinion, did not like that. So what they did was, is there was a foreign national, international drug dealer who was doing 25 years in prison, who Ken had some relationship to his representation while he was a criminal defendant. They went to him, serving three years or four years of his 25-year sentence, and they said, how'd you like to get out? And they made him the star witness against Ken Ravinell. And they said essentially that, listen to this, this is what the indictment says. It's so crazy.

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  They said that Ken Ravinell was a conspirator because he told this criminal defendant that if he wanted to get away with his crimes, it would be better to use cash instead of other means of payment, and it would be better to meet in person than to talk on the phone. That's what they allege was Ken Ravinell's advice that made him a conspirator in his criminal defendant's client's crimes. So they bring out the, the drug dealer who is now free. He was a foreign national, he was serving 25 years in prison, and now he's free. And they locked up Ken Ravinell. He beat all the charges, except for one or two of the charges.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  And it didn't matter because you beat most of the charges. That's one of the tricks the government uses routinely, where they charge you with 10 things and the jury says, well, I'm sure he did something. So they charge you with one of them. You're not 10% guilty, you're 100% guilty. He's in federal prison right now. He's a senior citizen, he has health problems. And he was a very respected person, a lawyer, a great lawyer who saved a lot of people. And now he's in prison. That's going on. I was telling people about cases like that. And I was going through the building.

• 1:21:35Speaker 04

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• 1:22:05Speaker 05

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians' healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:22:35Speaker 06

  Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites. But unless I repeat the word kayak, Kayak thinks you won't remember that. So Kayak asked me to say kayak as many times as possible. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kayak. Kai.

• 1:22:54Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 1:22:55Speaker 06

  Ak. Kai, Kai, Kai, Kai, kayak. Kayak, kayak, kayak. Search, compare and save on your trip. Kayak. Got that right.

• 1:23:06Speaker 02

  People were sick of me, frankly, but I didn't care. I said, I'm here and this is my job to do this. Any case that I found out about, I was trying to tell people orally and some I put in writing. I sent them to Colin McDonald. I have those reports. If Harvey Dillon wants to respond to this and say that I was fired for some other reason, by the way, I was never fired and I'll get to that. Let her produce to the public my reports that I wrote. Let them see what I was reporting on.

• 1:23:29Tucker Carlson?

  May I ask, so I think a normal person, just a normal, like me, I'm pretty normal. I hear that story about the lawyer, the Democrat lawyer, black guy Ravinell from Maryland. And I instantly feel sympathy for the man. I think that's just a normal response. I, I don't think you need to be special to feel empathy at all. Did you ever get the sense that people in charge over there felt empathy for the lives being destroyed?

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  No person in authority who could help these people, in my opinion, had empathy because if they did, they could get rid of these cases with the stroke of a pen. Ken Ravinell could be sent home tomorrow, as can so many other people, just like Dr. Kirk Moore was. It's the stroke of a pen to let these guys go. Look into the case. Have somebody independent look into the case. You know what happens with the stupid pardon applications? They tell you, oh, fill out your pardon application. You don't need the pardon application.

• 1:24:23Tucker Carlson?

  No.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  You don't need that at all. You think Daryl Strawberry filled out a pardon application? It's not how it works. They tell you, fill out the pardon application. You know what they do with that? The first thing? They say, let's call the prosecutor and ask them. The whole point of the pardon application is to say, this is totally unfair. What are the prosecutors going to say? Yeah, you're right about that. Of course not. Why should the pardon, why should the prosecutor have any input? Not only do they have input, I think they have the most input. If the prosecutor says, no, this was, this was good, don't even touch that one, then that person rots in prison.

• 1:24:52Tucker Carlson?

  The prosecutor's the one who did it in the first place.

• 1:24:54Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:24:56Tucker Carlson?

  Why would you solicit his opinion?

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  Good question, especially if you're President Trump, who these prosecutors went after. I, it baffles me.

• 1:25:02Tucker Carlson?

  So I, I've had a bunch of people come to me, you know, before, um, you know, no one comes to me now, but like in the last year, you know, like, can you call Trump? Because I need a pardon or my friend needs a pardon or whatever. And, you know, I'm not against that, but I didn't in this term because I felt it was getting so transparently sleazy that anybody connected to the pardon thing is going to be in trouble at some point. It's just, ooh, my spidey senses went off. It feels very corrupt, the way this is working.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  I think I said this earlier in the interview. If they want to get rid of that specter and shadow of corruption, all they need to do is actually look into these cases and do them, they could be doing 100 a week, 1,000 a week, they, just looking into these cases.

• 1:25:48Tucker Carlson?

  Bringing justice, you mean real justice? Like saving people who shouldn't be in prison in the first place.

• 1:25:53Speaker 02

  Let's look, is there any dispute? There was a book written by Harvey Silverglake called Three Felonies a Day. Did you ever read that?

• 1:25:59Tucker Carlson?

  No, but I remember the book.

• 1:26:00Speaker 02

  You don't have to read it, just the title, Three Felonies a Day. Essentially, if the government wants to go after you, you're, every one of us is violating at least three felonies a day. It's just a question of what Stalin said. Show me the man, I'll find you the crime. So we all know this to be true. For some reason, the government, the, the public still gives the presumption of good faith to the federal prosecutors. I don't know why that is. But that said, President Trump shouldn't let him turn his eyes inward and look at office by office and appoint outside people like me, like others, who, who have been critical. And let's look at these cases. Let's look for, once again, cases where there's no articulable crime, some complicated securities, Ponzi-like scheme, that's a big thing that they do.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  Let's look for no identifiable victims. And number three is, is there some kind of circumstance of motive that this could have been political? Dinesh D'Souza is the perfect example. You could give that easily. It's no articulable crime. It's, it's campaign finance violation. Campaign finance violation, we should get rid of it. It's inherently political. It only targets politics. It's selectively enforced and essentially George Soros can give a billion dollars because he has the right lawyers to do it and Dinesh D'Souza can't give 15,000 because he, he's not, he's basically, the people who should, who are actually tampering with our elections are the ones who are getting away with it because they have the best lawyers. So it's inherently political. There's no identifiable victim. Who was the victim? The voters are the victim. There was no victim.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  $15,000 in a political campaign in New York City doesn't even pay for one, like, you know, fundraiser in a, in a thing. He committed no crime and he went to jail. So obviously that's political weaponization. It's not hard to identify. That's what I'm saying. They've been, become so brazen about it because there's been no over, you know, oversight to this, that I bet you there are probably even emails that implicate them, like smoking gun emails, if, if there would be a real investigation of these people.

• 1:27:59Tucker Carlson?

  So why not? I just, I'm still confused by the motive. So Trump is the victim of weaponization of the justice system. There's no question about that. It's one of the reasons a lot of people supported Trump when they saw his wife's underwear drawer get raided at Mar-a-Lago three summers ago. It was like, this is ridiculous. So why wouldn't the administration do everything it could to expose the crimes of the previous administration and, and reform the system? I don't get it.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  I'm going to go back to my earlier answer, that the people that they put in charge of doing it are the people, the very people who.

• 1:28:37Tucker Carlson?

  Who did it.

• 1:28:37Speaker 02

  Who did it. Yeah. So why would you think that they would investigate themselves?

• 1:28:40Tucker Carlson?

  Why would you put them in charge? Like, okay, let's specifically on January 6th. That is an absolute red line. There's no question about it. Like you cannot push too hard on January 6th. That's just a, it's still an inflamed wound. What are they hiding from January 6th?

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  They're hiding everything. I, I mean, I mean, we can go into just the terror watch list. They were all put on the terror watch list. The terror watch list exists. It's called the Terror Screening Center and it's a division of the FBI, which is under DOJ. FBI is under DOJ. People don't know that. And, and essentially it's, it's, it's a one-man show, essentially. All you need is reasonable suspicion that somebody's a terrorist, which is anything. Because any trespasser who was anywhere in the vicinity of the Capitol, that's reasonable suspicion that they're terrorists. They were all put on the terror watch list just to punish them. It was just, it was punishment. You don't have notice of it until you go to the airport to fly and you have four S's on your thing, or until local law enforcement who's disseminated to pulls you over with guns drawn because, you know, you had a taillight and they get a thing that you're a terrorist.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  And that's happened to people and I intend to file a lawsuit about that. That's my next lawsuit that's going to come out. And, and, and it's, it still persists.

• 1:29:48Tucker Carlson?

  So the terror watch list is this, it's a database. Do we know who's in it?

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  No, it's hidden from us. We don't know anything about it, but it's disseminated to, as far as we know, to local law enforcement partners, to foreign governments. You could be detained, and I know J6er who was, he traveled overseas, he was detained. He didn't know why, but he knew why, obviously. But they don't tell you, and they just detained him in a foreign country. I know people have been pulled over, and the cops actually admitted to them that, yes, you were labeled as terrorists. These people could have been killed. If you think about that, you're a local cop, you don't know what's the difference, and you get a flash that says you're a terrorist. And by the way, I mean, you have no way to appeal it. There's no one to turn to.

• 1:30:36Tucker Carlson?

  Do you know that you're on it?

• 1:30:38Speaker 02

  No, you don't know that you're on it, until you kind of find out, but no.

• 1:30:42Tucker Carlson?

  And so you don't get notice that you're on the terror watch list, but foreign governments and local police departments get notice, but you don't know?

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  No, you have no idea.

• 1:30:52Tucker Carlson?

  And do you think that that information, the fact you're on the terror watch list, is sent to non-governmental entities?

• 1:30:57Speaker 02

  It's possible. Let's find out, right? You would think that that's what the Trump administration would go into. And that was one of the things that I wanted to talk about, and I believe it's one of my reports that I hope gets released to the public, is that I talked about the terror watch list, and I said, what are we going to do about this? Are we going to do, we're the Weaponization Working Group, can we look into the terror watch list? It's the easiest low-hanging fruit in the entire world, because if you break it open, it's the most enormous civil rights violation that you could ever imagine. It basically creates a social credit score, because essentially you're put on a list that that can affect you in a million different ways. And you're put on just with the click of a button, and you're taken off by a click of a button. And all the J6ers were put on it, and then there was no directive to do this, but when President Trump pardoned them, they were all taken off. Will they all be put on the minute there's a new administration?

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Maybe. There's nothing that prevents that. Are you on it? I don't know. Am I on it? I have no idea.

• 1:31:48Tucker Carlson?

  So why can't we know who's on it?

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  Nobody's even raising the question. I was in DOJ, and I raised the question.

• 1:31:54Tucker Carlson?

  Where's Harmeet Dhillon headed, the Civil Rights Division, on this question?

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  You would think. Look, the federal government is by far and away without rival the largest violator of civil rights in the country. It is the biggest. There's no local government that can violate your civil rights as well as the-

• 1:32:10Tucker Carlson?

  There's no intentional community in Arkansas that could-

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So you would think that the Civil Rights Division would be going after it. They're going after, I'll say this, they're going after things like DEI, and anti-white discrimination, so they say, but they'll go to a few colleges and say, hey, your admissions are a little wrong, so a few people in Harvard can get in who would have got in. Oh, good. Shoot, we could rest peacefully at night. But then they're targeting a small group of Arkansas who just want to move into a rural community and raise goats. They are supposedly going after the trans agenda, we were told. Everybody's applauding them. Oh, the trans agenda, that's wonderful, going after the trans agenda. There's a woman in California named Shayna Gaviola. Shayna Gaviola's son, in California, was

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  in a public school, where in California, they are secretly socially transitioning these kids and indoctrinating them into the cult of the LGBTQ, you know, transgender thing. She learned about it too late, unfortunately. They had already gotten the kid to move out of the home, and they got a protective order. She was able to get him out and get him to a deprogramming school in Missouri. Well, she violated a protective order interstate, so the federal government arrested her and charged this single mother of trying to save her child from this cult that supposedly our federal government now is against. And she is now, today, in federal prison. She reported just a few weeks ago.

• 1:33:39Tucker Carlson?

  What?

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Her name is Shayna Gaviola, and it's horrifying, and-

• 1:33:44Tucker Carlson?

  Wait, this was her child?

• 1:33:45Speaker 02

  This was her child that was taken from her, and they got a protective order, because the child was in high school and was indoctrinated into this cult, and she tried to rescue him from the cult and get him to a deprogramming school that was in a different state. And for doing that, she violated federal law by violating a protective order, a restraining order that was interstate, that's a federal law. If you do that, then the FBI can come knocking down your doors. And a knock-in they did, and they arrested her. They wanted to shut down the deprogramming school, so they arrested her and the headmaster. And the headmaster was acquitted, thankfully, but she was convicted of rescuing her own child from this cult. Now, our administration should look into that case. At the very least,

• 1:34:28Speaker 02

  forget what you're going to read from their press release, because people are like, whoa, I read the press release, and it sounds terrible. Yeah, of course, because it was written by the prosecution that wants to put her in jail. I ask anybody, think about that for a minute. You're a single mom. Your child is indoctrinated into this cult. What wouldn't you do? And she did it. And they acquitted the headmaster, they convicted her. She is in prison. She just reported. I spoke to her right before she reported to prison. It was horrifying. Her children, she told me, they are being sent to child protective services, because now they have no mother. And you would think the judge would think about that for a minute. It's like, oh, she's a bad parent, so I have an idea. Let's make these kids, you know. So she's in federal prison right now. Why wouldn't, the federal government, you think

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  they're even looking into her case? Not even looking into it. This was done by a line prosecutor in Sacramento, you know, area or something like that. Why shouldn't the people at the top, who we elected President Trump to put in people, look into that? See, maybe, you know what, prosecutor, we trust you, but trust and verify. Let's get another set of eyes on this case and see if there was any political motive to put this poor, single mother in jail and take her away from her children. And nothing was done. And, you know, and going back to the question that you asked, the people of influence, the people who have the power, they don't have the empathy. If you mention their case, yeah, we have other

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  things to worry about. We're not interested in Shayna Gaviola. But imagine having the power. What would it even cost? Do you think it would cost President Trump anything politically? I'll tell you another case. Probably you've never even heard of it. Kyle Meany, okay?

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  You know who Breonna Taylor was?

• 1:36:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:08Speaker 02

  Breonna Taylor was this woman, I think, in, I want to say Kentucky. And, you know, there was a no-knock raid on her house.

• 1:36:13Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  And tragedy happened. It's very, very sad, right?

• 1:36:16Tucker Carlson?

  I think they were looking for her boyfriend or some man in the apartment.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Something of that nature, exactly right. And tragedy happened. Okay. Was it their fault? Was it not? I don't know. It became one of those Black Lives Matter, say her name. Okay. So the very politicized Biden administration said, we're going after everyone here. It's Civil Rights Division. This is Harmeet's Division. So they charged every cop involved in that. So not only did they charge every cop involved in it, they charged every cop who was, not just was there, but who had anything to do with it. So they charged the cop who wrote the search warrant, that applied for the search warrant, and they charged that police officer's supervisor, Kyle Meany, for not supervising him enough.

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Now, Kyle Meany was not at the raid-

• 1:37:05Tucker Carlson?

  Criminally charged him?

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  Criminally charged him with 18 U.S.C. 241, which is deprivation of civil rights, which according to the statute, if it results in loss of life, this is in the statute, then the punishment is, can be life imprisonment or the death penalty. So Kyle Meany supervised a guy who wrote a warrant, and then that went to the judge, and the judge approved it, and then the raid happened. So the DOJ, under Biden, said that that guy who wrote the warrant, he wrote false information, and his supervisor should have supervised him better. So Kyle Meany was facing life imprisonment or the death penalty. Okay?

• 1:37:48Tucker Carlson?

  This is so bonkers.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  And that went into the Trump administration, under Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch. And they knew about it. I mean, obviously, I mean, it's under them. And that case was going on in Kentucky and was set for trial. Thank God, finally, they dropped that case. That case was dropped. All the people who did it, nobody's been punished, never made a statement about it. You would think the Trump administration would declare victory and say, look what happened to the Biden administration. By the way, remember all those people who they went after for reading Bibles in front of abortion clinics, and they charged them criminally with the same thing, 18 U.S.C. 241, deprivation of civil rights, civil rights cases. I was

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  working in civil rights with people, high-level people, with, you know, big responsibility, who are career, you know, prosecutors and attorneys, whose names were signed on those lawsuits. I mean, they're still in DOJ. You would think to yourself, you know, hey, President Trump has said that those people were pardoned, and, you know, but there's no accountability. The people are still there. They still have their jobs. And-

• 1:38:54Tucker Carlson?

  But you don't.

• 1:38:56Speaker 02

  But I do.

• 1:38:57Tucker Carlson?

  So what, okay. So by this point, I think anyone who's watched this conversation until now is convinced of your sincerity. I don't think you've gotten rich from this. You did it out of principle in the first place. How did you wind up getting separated from DOJ?

• 1:39:13Speaker 02

  So I was in the office and going back to the story you said earlier, Harmeet Dhillon says to me, you know, what you did was wrong. So I just said, you know what? I have nothing to say. I take full responsibility.

• 1:39:26Tucker Carlson?

  I And what you did was bring victims of weaponization into the building.

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:39:32Tucker Carlson?

  In a, in an administration that was dedicated to ending weaponization.

• 1:39:35Speaker 02

  And internally write reports that, that talked about weaponization. Yeah. And send them.

• 1:39:41Tucker Carlson?

  So you did what you were hired to do.

• 1:39:43Speaker 02

  By the way, ironic, you know, the first time I saw Harmeet Dhillon, I just saw this right now. First time I ever saw her was when you brought her on your show because of that guy, James Broadmoor from Google.

• 1:39:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  Remember who?

• 1:39:56Tucker Carlson?

  James DeMore, yeah.

• 1:39:56Speaker 02

  DeMore, yeah. DeMore, and he wrote internal things inside Google and he was fired for, remember that? So that's, that's what was going on.

• 1:40:03Tucker Carlson?

  I had her on a million times.

• 1:40:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, so I was, I was writing these internal memos. I did not, I didn't do any media. I didn't tweet or anything like that. It was all internal and I was, um, and I brought people into the building who were victims of weaponization and told them to tell their stories. And I was told that's unacceptable and, um, and, and we're going to fire you. So I said, no, then they said, um, we want you to resign. And I said, I'm not resigning. I'm not going to resign. That's crazy. So, um, so I refused. I said, I'm just not going to resign. So they put me on two weeks paid leave and said, well, we figure out what to do with you. And then I came back and they moved me out of the main building and they put me, you know, a mile plus away in like some, you know, empty building with, uh, you know, with

• 1:40:50Speaker 02

  a few of the career people. They took me off of all of the cases that I was working on. They took, you know, I was supposed to testify at like, uh, she put me on antisemitism ironically. And, um, or not ironically, but, uh, she put me on antisemitism. So I was supposed to testify at the civil rights hearing and I, you know, I was, you know, other people were, were put on that. And, and basically I was in an empty office with no work and just, just sitting there. And then, um, and I was trying to figure out what to do. What am I going to stay? Am I going to leave? Like, there's nothing to do. And then, um, I like, I, I got, I got an email that, and this email you could get from FOIA and it like said, all of a sudden it said like, uh, oh, on this date, you missed

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  a meeting and on this date, you weren't here on this date, you know, you need to meet with this supervisor and, and talk about it. And I wrote back, I said, I'm here in my office, meet with me anytime. Cause I, you know, I didn't miss any meetings or anything like that. I, I thought this, I, I saw the writing on the wall was going on. Anyway, they never met with me. They never responded to my email back, but I went home to my wife and I said, look, I, I see what's going on here. I think it's better if I, if I resign at this point, cause otherwise they'll generate some reason to get rid of me.

• 1:42:01Tucker Carlson?

  So you're wasting your life sitting in an office with no work.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I didn't come there to just collect the paycheck and have the government benefits. I, I went to do something and I wasn't going to do something. So, uh, so I, so I quit and, um, and then I opened up my own practice again and, um, started from scratch and now I'm just trying to fight the government.

• 1:42:21Speaker 05

  Now more than ever, we need someone on our side, but Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid and risked 350,000 Virginians healthcare to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the HouseMajorityPac.com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:42:50Speaker 06

  Kayak searches and compares hundreds of travel sites, but unless I repeat the word kayak, Kayak thinks you won't remember that. So Kayak asked me to say kayak as many times as possible. Kayak, kayak, kayak, kayak, kayak. Kayak. Kai.

• 1:43:10Speaker 05

  Ooh.

• 1:43:11Speaker 06

  Ak. Kai, Kai, Kai, Kai, kayak, kayak, kayak, kayak. Search, compare and save on your trip. Kayak, got that right.

• 1:43:20Speaker 07

  Hello, I'm Amy Westerveld, host of the podcast Drilled and author of the new book, Brought to You By: How Corporations Warped the Truth, Con the Public and Broke Democracy. This is a deep dive into how corporate propaganda has infiltrated our media, undermined democracy, and now threatens the very nature of truth itself. If you're fed up with big industry getting away with polluting our information ecosystem and the environment, this book is for you. Brought to You By is available now wherever you find your books and audiobooks, including on Spotify.

• 1:43:51Tucker Carlson?

  Have you talked to anyone at DOJ since you left?

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:43:55Tucker Carlson?

  That was less than a year ago, right?

• 1:43:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, uh, I, I, I came on, I think, I want to say in April of 2025 and I left in March of 2026. And, uh, you know, like I said, I don't have access. I've, uh, on behalf of some, of returns to the land, I tried to, I wanted to work it out with the government. I, I thought that the government knew about that they were, had these investigations into these white people who were doing nothing. And meanwhile, at the same time, their closing investigations were not opening into all these other people. That's civil rights and, and our administration has said.

• 1:44:28Tucker Carlson?

  It's not equal application of the law.

• 1:44:29Speaker 02

  It's not equal application, it's disparate treatment. Exactly. So I thought that, um, that actually I was bringing this to their attention. Now, I, obviously I've been critical of them on, on X and I went on Brandon Strzok's, uh, show and I did a, I did two interviews with him. So, I mean, I didn't think that they liked me for sure because I was trying to bring attention to this, but at the same time, okay, but let's separate that. And I'm bringing what I hope is oversight, you know, is, is just, you, you missed this, but one of the careers who was doing the same thing under Biden is still doing it under you and signing your name on it. So can we, I thought I was bringing that to their attention and maybe I would get some traction, they would say, oh my gosh, we're really sorry and let's see if we can work this out. But, uh, I got silenced.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  So why, the only way to get their attention is to file a lawsuit.

• 1:45:16Tucker Carlson?

  So let me ask, just kind of wrap it up on a philosophical question that maybe you can answer, which is, how do people go from opposing a system to defending it so quickly? Cause it sounds like that is the core problem. Once you decide, I'm here to defend the system in place by def, if it's a corrupt system, you're, you're corrupt, like the second you decide to do that. And there are good people like Harmeet, who I just want to say for the third time I've known all these years and really liked and like, but how does someone like that make that decision? How does everyone get captured?

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  I know. And, and just to end it also to mention one more case is that there's a case right now, Ron Elfenbeim, who's a doctor from Maryland, this whole story, I hope you have him on your show. And he's going to trial in January and it's the most ridiculous case you will get, people can look it up online. And that one I know is in front of them right now because they have to decide, just I know as a lawyer, that they have to decide right now if they're going to prepare for this man's trial or if they're going to drop it because they're going to, it's a, it's going to be a big trial and it's their second go at it, which people can look at online. So right now they are making that decision. And he's another one of these cases where he was a doctor and there's.

• 1:46:31Tucker Carlson?

  COVID doctor.

• 1:46:32Speaker 02

  COVID doctor, no articulable crime, no identifiable victim. There, you know, and, you know, and the clear political atmosphere.

• 1:46:40Tucker Carlson?

  He opposed, and people can look up the details of this case, which is a fascinating case. It's got a full read in on it, but basically he opposed the system in place. He went up against the, the COVID system.

• 1:46:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was going up against the COVID regime and actually presenting what could have been a cure, which is monoclonal antibodies, and they did not want that. So, uh, even though it cured President Trump and whatever it was. So, so he went on TV and spoke about it. And then four months later, they got him on some process crime unrelated from, from earlier. And, um, so there's, there's the atmosphere and everything like that. So now they, they, um, won the trial, but an Obama judge overturned it with a 95 page opinion and said the government did not prove their case. The government appealed it.

• 1:47:17Tucker Carlson?

  How often does that happen?

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  Never, never, ever happens. I mean, it's so, that's what I'm saying. You have a, an opinion written by the chief judge of the district of Maryland, who was appointed by Obama, uh, who wrote a 95 page opinion going through detail why this is a terrible case.

• 1:47:32Tucker Carlson?

  Overturning a jury decision.

• 1:47:33Speaker 02

  Overturning a jury decision, saying that there's no basis in law to convict this guy, which by the way, tells you about a lot of these cases that the judges maybe don't overturn it, but there's no basis for the jury. So Ron, uh, is now facing trial in January. It's now it's October, we're getting into mid-October. So they're going to have to start preparing for trial.

• 1:47:51Tucker Carlson?

  The government, even after a judge overturned the jury's verdict because it was inconsistent with the law, the government took up the case again?

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:48:03Tucker Carlson?

  My guess is it's because this guy gave the finger to the system. That's always the real crime.

• 1:48:10Speaker 02

  It, it could be, it could also be because if they dismiss it, then it opens up, uh, you know, why, what, why was this brought in the first place? And then maybe we're going to find a smoking gun email that says Fox News, Ron Elfenbeim, uh, you know, in the same sentence through an easy search and we're going to find out somebody, maybe, I'm not alleging, but maybe somebody sent an email and said, hey, this guy on Fox News, here's the link, uh, we need to find a crime on him. I, I would not doubt that they, if they did it, maybe they did it on Signal or whatever, but I would not doubt that they even sent it in the, in the government emails. And, uh, and I think that they have to get a conviction on him and that's why they're committed to it. But that's the line prosecutors. What about the people at the top? What about those people?

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  Where's Colin McDonald, who's now the head of fraud? This is under him. He is a Trump appointee to an assistant attorney general position. Let him look at this case and evaluate it in the context, not only the context of whether we can win or lose the case, but how about the context of maybe there's something fishy going on here? Maybe it's not worth destroying a doctor be over, you know, over this. But maybe there's something, some other factor that, that makes this case a little bit unusual and we should just drop it. So what I'm hoping, once again, and I thank you again for, for giving me this opportunity to talk about as many cases as I can, is that instead of doubling down because we don't want to, you know, uh, you know, act under pressure because we don't like that guy or

• 1:49:38Speaker 02

  that guy because they're, you know, speaking out against us, let's just take what they say at face value and let's start, uh, being honest with the public. Let's respond to these accusations of weaponization. Let's, let's maybe admit that we're wrong. You find a million press releases by them that say that, uh, you know, this person's under indictment for, here's our allegations against him. You'll never find a press release from the DOJ that says, you know what? We got that one wrong. Never happens. So in answer to your question of why these people, they are married to this system. The people who are in these jobs, they, from the time they were kindergarten, wanted to go to Harvard and Yale and all the Ivy League schools and everything. So therefore they are conditioned from the youngest age to never move this way or that

• 1:50:21Speaker 02

  way outside of authority, because you don't get into Harvard and Yale if you did something here or here. So that is their conditioning, like Pavlovian instincts, that it's just the authority.

• 1:50:30Tucker Carlson?

  Obedience to the system.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Obedience to the system, obedience to the system. So by the time they get into these positions, their minds and their, their essence, their soul is so corrupted by the system that produced them that they're not even capable of seeing it and they could have cognitive dissonance and they're not, they're the wrong people to be in this, in, you know, to challenge the system because they're not capable, they're produced by it and they're looking to move up in it because that's all, it takes a great person to throw all of that away and to, uh, and to move on. So, um, that's.

• 1:51:06Tucker Carlson?

  That's about the nicest summary I've ever heard. I will, my one and a trail comment would be, these are prizes that are not worth winning in the first place. And so that's what they don't understand, which is like the whole secret to life, which is getting rewarded by a corrupt, silly system and getting your merit badges and your little ribbons and all that stuff. It's like, it doesn't add up to anything. Don't you think?

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:29Tucker Carlson?

  Sad. Wow, I, you're one of the very few remaining of a dying breed of civil rights lawyer who kept this country free, annoyed the hell out of a lot of people for 60 years, but, but kept the country free. And I'm just sad to see there aren't more of you, but I hope you inspire more. So thank you for doing this.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  And thank you.

• 1:51:48Tucker Carlson?

  Jonathan Gross.