S3 Ep366: Chad Entzel | The Interrogation That Broke Nikki Entzel (Part 2)

On the evening of December 30, 2019, 42-year-old Chad Entzel headed out to his weekly bowling league in Bismarck, North Dakota. Friends said he was in good spirits, laughing and joking like always, before heading home for what should have been an ordinary night. But over the next several days, Chad stopped answering calls, didn’t show up for work, and seemed to vanish inside his own home - until a 911 call on January 2 reported a fire at the property. When firefighters arrived, they found more than just smoke and flames. Inside the primary bedroom was Chad’s body, a propane heater, and a shotgun. At first glance, it looked like a suicide and accidental fire. But as investigators began examining the scene, a very different story emerged involving missing surveillance footage, a sudden insurance policy, and a secret relationship Chad knew nothing about. Try our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. WildGrain.com/CrimeWeekly30 - Get $30 off your first box and FREE croissants!2. https://www. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off any new SimpliSafe System!3. https://www. PDSDebt.com/CrimeWeekly - Get your FREE debt assessment TODAY!4. https://www. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!5. https://www. Quince.com/CrimeWeekly - Get FREE shipping and 365-day returns with Quince!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, today, we're diving into the second and final part of the Chad Entzel case. And as always, I'm going to give you a quick recap about what we've already talked about because it's been a week. So on January 2, 2020, Nikki Entzel called 911 to report a fire at the Bismarck home she shared with her husband Chad. When firefighters went inside, they found Chad dead on the bedroom floor with two gunshot wounds. Detectives quickly determined he had been murdered and that two separate fires had intentionally been set in an attempt to cover up the crime. So as detectives began piecing together what had happened using security system data, phone records, surveillance footage, and more, the focus turned to Nikki Entzel. They learned she was having an affair with a Canadian

• 1:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  man named Earl Howard. On December 27, 2019, Nikki and Earl met up in person, and by December 29, they were staying together at a hotel in Bismarck. So Chad, who was completely unaware of this relationship, continued following his routines, still trusting his wife that she was on a business trip, and still believing his marriage was intact. On December 30, Chad left his regular Monday Night Bowling League, and surveillance footage showed that while he was gone, Nikki and her boyfriend Earl went to the Entzel home and began removing belongings before returning to the hotel where they were staying. Around two hours later, Chad came home from bowling, and he went to bed, having no idea what Nikki had been doing. After midnight, on what was now Tuesday, December 31, Nikki's login was

• 1:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  used to access the Entzel's security system. Privacy mode was enabled, camera settings were changed, and video recording was shut off, though, unknown to Nikki, motion sensors continued logging activity. Shortly after, Nikki and Earl left the hotel and drove back to the Entzel home, where Chad was now inside in bed. And what happened next would lead to Chad's tragic murder. That is where we are as of now. Derek, do you want to talk about anything before we get into the rest of the case?

• 2:16Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm looking forward to tonight because I didn't look ahead, and it seems pretty obvious what happened here, but... I'm looking to see if there's any wrinkles in the story that I'm unaware of. Uh, as far as anything else, this is our last episode before the Christmas holiday.

• 2:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Happy holidays, Merry Christmas, anybody who celebrates.

• 2:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're like, um, um, happy holidays.

• 2:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I will say I do apologize, the mugs, well, I should say thank you, I guess. The mugs for Criminal Coffee sold out immediately.

• 2:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  My favorite mugs, the red ones?

• 2:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, they sold out immediately. I ordered more. I also ordered them in green.

• 2:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:51Derrick Levasseur?

  I know, I know. So they'll be here in a few weeks. They take a little bit longer because they have to, you know, manufacture them or whatever, but we appreciate all the love and support. We're excited for the holidays. I know I am because we just did Crime Weekly News this week. It's, it's crazy out there right now. It seems like every time around the holidays, it always gets worse. And even when I was a police officer, it felt like that domestic violence was always up around the holidays because one, it was cold out, so everybody was trapped inside. And I think also there's like an audit of your life for a lot of people and they see everyone so happy and it, it really brings out the worst in people, some of them at least where they're, they're sitting in their house disgruntled and they take it out on the people who are around them. So I'm just thinking about everybody, whether you celebrate or not.

• 3:36Derrick Levasseur?

  We're extremely grateful for the position that we're in. We wouldn't be here without you guys. And we're looking forward to wrapping up this year strong. And then we have some major plans for 2026. We don't know if we're going to be able to do it all, but we've been talking. We're going to try to get out to see you guys more often. We're actually going to lock it in right now. We're going to hold ourselves accountable. Next week, even though there will be no episode, we're going to do a YouTube Live. So if you don't follow us on YouTube, make sure that you do. We're going to do a YouTube Live. It's going to be a lot lighter. We'll talk about some of the BTS for Crime Weekly and just have a good conversation with you guys, no case specifically that we're going to talk about. And maybe we'll have a couple of drinks. We haven't done that in a long time, years where you and I got a couple of cups of, uh, you know, the good stuff and we get on here and make fools of ourselves.

• 4:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I could use a festive cup of wine right now.

• 4:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Y'all always be able to tell where I am because my cheeks get redder. Yeah, so thinking about everybody and happy to be there in the position we're in, although I wish our society would just stop being so crazy.

• 4:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it feels very tough and I think we've had, you know, it's been hard to get into like the holiday spirit because it does feel like a lot's been happening lately.

• 4:44Derrick Levasseur?

  It really does.

• 4:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so when your job is to come in and kind of look at all the horrible things that are happening around the world every day, it's hard to put yourself into that like, you know, festive mindset and everybody has reasons of why they they can't get into the holiday spirit this year or they want to and they're trying, but hopefully everybody can lock in this coming week and really just try to enjoy your your time with your family and the season and be grateful and we're gonna try to do that as well, so.

• 5:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, but we will be back for a crime weekly.

• 5:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  We will.

• 5:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Youtube live next week, if we can make it work. We usually struggle to get that Youtube live.

• 5:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I was just thinking when you said we're gonna go live, I started laughing because I was like, I'm gonna have to figure out all this.

• 5:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Trials and tribulations.

• 5:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, the technical difficulties.

• 5:27Derrick Levasseur?

  When Stephanie's in charge of the technical side of things, that's when my hair goes gray.

• 5:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, you can be in charge of the technical side of things.

• 5:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I would try to, but I think it's under, well, I guess I could be now because it's under Crime Weekly, not Stephanie Harlow. We'll see what happens. You have the account, we, the program.

• 5:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can send you the program.

• 5:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll gladly do it. I'll gladly do it. Okay, we'll get into it. We'll talk about this week's case and then we'll figure that one out.

• 5:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so as detectives continued piecing together a timeline of Nikki and Earl's movements, motion sensor data from the Entzel's security system showed that just after 1:10 a.m. on December 31st, the garage door at the home opened. About an hour and 45 minutes later, the garage door closed again. So obviously whoever was in that house was in there for about an hour and 45 minutes. Now, based on the timing and everything they knew, detectives believed that Chad was killed during this window. Nikki and Earl then worked together to stage the scene to look like a suicide. One of the spent shotgun shells was removed while the other was left behind because they wanted to make it look like Chad had done

• 6:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  this to himself and usually people can't shoot themselves twice.

• 6:36Derrick Levasseur?

  So the shotgun was placed on the bed along with a bottle of whiskey to make it appear Chad had been drinking. A propane heater was positioned near the bed in an attempt to start a fire and an accelerant was added to help the fire spread with particular focus on the head side of the bed where the shotgun pellets had struck the wall. So a torch kit Earl recently purchased was also set up in the garage with the oxygen and acetylene tanks left on open. Okay, so my question is because you would probably know this better than I do. If this torch, maybe, but I definitely don't know the answer to this, but I think I suspect what it could be. If the torch kit was set up in the garage and the tanks, the oxygen and acetylene tanks are left on open, were they

• 7:20Derrick Levasseur?

  hoping that whatever fire started in the house would sort of be accelerated by that torch kit in the garage? Yeah, I think, I think all of it. I think the, what was it called last week? The sunflower heater? Sunflower heater, yeah. Right. I think all of it was the intention was to make it look like there was a faulty mechanism within the furnace. Yeah. Right. And that fire unfortunately spread to the sunflower heater, which was this massive propane tank and then the acetylene and oxygen tanks in the garage, which would have been a pretty big explosion. So that house would have been a pile of rubble if everything had went the way to plan. Yeah, that didn't happen for some reason. That would avoid the possibility of seeing the outline of the shotgun, the proper 12 whiskey bottle, which I didn't know the name of it. I, I, I

• 8:05Derrick Levasseur?

  obviously know proper 12. I couldn't make it out in that photo, but there were a lot of people in our comments who knew exactly what it was. And that tells me a lot about you guys. You definitely know your whiskey. But the proper 12 bottle, the injuries to Chad's, Chad's body, right? Like, if you think about those explosions going off, not to be, not to be crass here, but there wouldn't be much left of Chad. And so you wouldn't be able to determine cause of death because he would be in pieces. And so the fact that that didn't happen is the only reason we're sitting here today, talking about this case the way we are.

• 8:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also wondered though, like even if everything had gone off as Nikki and her boyfriend had planned, because she turned the cameras off, but the motion sensors were still going, that would have still shown the police that somebody came into the house after Chad had gotten there and gone to bed. Correct? Or would that have been destroyed when the security system was destroyed?

• 8:59Derrick Levasseur?

  If the system's cloud-based, which I'm assuming it is, then no, it would have still showed it because all of that stuff is uploaded to the the cloud. It's not on a actual internal hard drive that's located in that building. So, yeah, I think it would still show the activity on the car, but that just shows how stupid they are.

• 9:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, they didn't know. So I mean, I think it would have been still like, hey, the police suspect something happened here.

• 9:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 9:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it maybe would have been harder to prove based on the lack of physical evidence because of the fire and the explosion.

• 9:28Derrick Levasseur?

  And and just a side note here, that that is something that everyone should take from security systems. I know, me included, I used to always have like a hard drive, like a two terabyte hard drive in my house. And I wanted it there for protection because obviously it was a physical drive that I could go to.

• 9:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just in case there was a glitch or something happened.

• 9:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Please switch over to cloud-based. It's so much better. You can access it from everywhere. It's saved up to the cloud on an internal, on a server that's, you know, stationed somewhere by one of these big companies.

• 9:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like simply safe?

• 9:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, like simply safe. And and it also allows you to avoid any possibilities of a fire or water damage. So, uh, if you haven't already and you have the means of doing so, definitely switch out to over to a cloud-based system. It's much more safe.

• 10:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think even probably some systems have the ability to do both.

• 10:15Derrick Levasseur?

  You can. You absolutely can do both. You can have a hard line and you can have a cloud-based system. And there's some redundancy there, which is amazing. Not everyone can afford that, but at minimum, if you have to choose one or the other, cloud-based it is.

• 10:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So Nikki and Earl left the Entzel home at around 3 a.m. and then they returned to the hotel. At 6:27 a.m., the two left the hotel again, and then they went back to the Entzel home, staying for six minutes. This is weird to me, but I was, I would be like, why would you put all of this stuff in there to like start a fire and explosion and then go back? But for this timeframe, the detectives believed that Nikki and Earl realized the fire had not started the way it was supposed to. Cause if the house had caught fire, it likely would have appeared in the news or you know, Nikki would have heard from like a neighbor or something. And it hadn't, it hadn't been on the news. Nobody knew anything about it. So they went back to reposition the propane heater in hopes it would catch fire for real

• 11:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  this time. So detectives continued building the timeline and learned that just before 8 a.m. Nikki called Chad's workplace and that's when she reported him sick, which they thought was meant to buy more time, right? The house is on fire yet. They don't want the police to go there yet because nothing's happened and every way that they've set the scene up could be seen. So Nikki then went to work and stayed there until 5 p.m. Afterwards, she returned to the hotel where Earl was already staying. Just after 10:45 p.m. Earl left the hotel alone and based on motion sensor data at the Ansel home, he went back there for about 15 minutes. So detectives believed Earl returned to check on the fire once more. When he saw the propane heater still hadn't ignited anything, he started a separate fire

• 11:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  on top of the furnace, then left, getting back to the hotel before 11:30 p.m. Okay. So they've gone there multiple times at this point. They've returned to the scene of the crime multiple times. Now by the next morning, January 1st, 2020, the fire still had not fully ignited. It was a holiday, so Chad wasn't scheduled to work and Nikki didn't have to call him in. She didn't have to work either. So instead she and Earl spent the day running errands together. One of those stops was Riddle's Jewelry. While there, they asked for receipts documenting the jewelry Nikki owned, saying the information was needed for a renter's insurance claim. Now detectives questioned why Nikki would be preparing for an insurance claim if, as she said, she didn't know the house was on fire until January 2nd, when she called the

• 12:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  police.

• 12:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I know. I got no comment. I got nothing. We need more Nickies in the world for us, from a detective's perspective, we take these all day.

• 12:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. It's like, do you not know that they're gonna look into this stuff?

• 12:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope.

• 12:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did you not know that? And then you're there with your boyfriend of all things, you know, so.

• 12:57Derrick Levasseur?

  While your husband is apparently still alive.

• 13:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but he's not.

• 13:01Derrick Levasseur?

  According to the outside source. Yeah, exactly. He's not.

• 13:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the following morning, which is January 2nd, Earl needed to leave to get back home to his family in Canada.

• 13:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Priorities.

• 13:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, of course. I mean, he's, he's a good husband. At the end of the day, he's gonna take care of his responsibilities.

• 13:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Take care of his family.

• 13:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So there were multiple problems though, right? The house fire still hadn't made the news and Chad was expected to be at work that day. It's not a holiday anymore. But for reasons that remain unclear, Nikki didn't call him in again to buy more time. Instead, Earl started driving back home while she went to work. I think Nikki didn't call him in again to buy more time. Because then it would look suspicious because then she would have to explain to the police how she even knew she was, that, that he was sick. That her husband was sick when she hadn't talked to him, right? Cause phone records are gonna show they have not talked. And she's allegedly been staying out of the house because that's her whole alibi for how she, you know, wouldn't have known.

• 13:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Wouldn't have detected this fire?

• 13:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and wouldn't have been there because she's staying out of the house for, for, cause it's so cold and she has medical issues.

• 14:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I also think too, and, and some people weighed in, in the comment section about it and they agreed. The wife calls you in sick one time. I think that's a little suspicious, but then she calls you in again after a weekend. We, we need to know what's going on with our employees. You okay? Is he, is there something more significant going on here that we're unaware of? I think it would have raised even more red flags.

• 14:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are you tied to the bad, like Kathy Bates is that dude in Misery? Like, what's happening?

• 14:29Derrick Levasseur?

  He's still not well enough to even get on a phone?

• 14:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we can't hear his voice. No proof of life. Okay.

• 14:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, yes.

• 14:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's when, you know, probably people would start calling the police and asking for a welfare check. And even at this point, cause Chad hasn't called in. A lot of people, because Chad was well liked and, and he had a routine and he was known to be who he was. Reliable, consistent, friendly. Would not just not show up to work. So the fact that even though he was allegedly sick before the holiday, when the holiday's over and he's still not there. And they haven't heard from him, they're gonna call and do a welfare check. But a lot of him, a lot of coworkers. Would have just been like, well, he's probably still sick, you know, whatever. He was sick before, before the holiday and he's probably still sick. Who cares? But these coworkers know Chad. They know who he is and, and what he does and how responsible he is. And they're like, no, this isn't right. Something's weird. And we haven't even heard from him because all we heard was, was from Nikki's dumb ass.

• 15:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So at this point, the fire's not going. It's not going to plan. Earl's got to go home to Canada because he's got a whole ass family there. And so Earl started driving back home while Nikki went to work that day. And then beginning at around 9:00 AM, Nikki received multiple phone calls from Chad's coworkers, who were concerned because he hadn't shown up. But Nikki didn't answer any of them. She's avoiding it. So after about 15 minutes of missed calls, Nikki tried calling her boyfriend Earl, but it went to voicemail. So as soon as that call ended, Chad's coworkers continued trying to reach her for another eight minutes. She still didn't answer. So at this point Nikki had to be freaking out because she left work. She went to her car and she called Earl again.

• 16:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this time she did speak with him briefly. More calls from Chad's coworkers followed. And at 9:43 AM, Nikki finally answered one. But by then, they'd been trying to reach her for nearly 45 minutes. And they told Nikki they were worried because Chad hadn't shown up to work. But Nikki said she was too busy at work to go check on him. So after that call, what is strange, from Nikki's perspective, if she's completely innocent, she did not try to contact Chad to see if he was okay. Normally people are calling from his work, like, we can't get ahold of him. He didn't pick up. And she's like, I'm at work. I'm too busy to call my husband and see if he's okay. Although I've called my boyfriend twice already, but I'm too busy. She does not call him after getting off the phone with his coworkers to even pretend to be checking on him.

• 16:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's not very calculating, at least. She also did not return to work. Instead Nikki started searching online for a funeral home.

• 16:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Can't make it up.

• 16:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  She really plans ahead. She plans ahead. I mean.

• 17:02Derrick Levasseur?

  If you didn't know better, you'd think she'd want to be caught. Like, that's the whole reason she was doing it. Like, maybe she was hoping she would be caught by police.

• 17:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  What are your responses when the police are like, "Why'd you file an insurance claim if you had no idea there's gonna be a fire at your house? Why'd you call a funeral home if you had no idea your husband was dead?"

• 17:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I just think she, I don't think she thought this one through. I don't know her. Never spoke to her. Hope I never will. But she's not the sharpest tool in the shed. Clearly.

• 17:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I, or she's like, really, she's just really trying to plan ahead. She's like, a lot's gonna happen once that house catches on fire. And once it's found out that Chad's dead, and I'm gonna be busy, you know, with whatever and my grief. And so I need to make sure I'm planning these things ahead of time, so I can be ready. And what's, what's illegal about that?

• 17:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I just think her lack of knowledge about digital forensics is really what did her in, from the security system to the internet searches. Cameras. I just think she really underestimated the ability of law enforcement to go back and gather this information and paint a picture.

• 18:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is weird, because we're talking 2019.

• 18:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 18:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not, it's not a long time ago, where like, computers and Google and stuff, like, I would rather, as Nikki, have the police be like, "Hey, we have a Google searches from you here, asking like, are the police gonna track my phone calls? Are the police going to be able to see insurance claims?" I would rather have that, that the police are asking me about, than the actual evidence of the fact that I did file an insurance claim and I did call a funeral home.

• 18:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because at least there's plausible deniability in the other one, you know, but here it's hard evidence that you cannot dispute.

• 18:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, yeah. So the police obviously were like, "Hey, um, why would you do something like this if you claimed that you didn't know anything had happened to Chad yet?" A very valid question. So we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 18:58Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 19:04Derrick Levasseur?

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• 19:05Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 20:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So Nikki, she's getting calls from Chad's coworkers all morning. She doesn't answer them. Finally, she does. And she's like, "I'm too busy at work to call and check on my husband, who nobody's heard from in days. Have fun, you guys. I'm okay." And then she doesn't call Chad, but then she does call a funeral home, which, you know, we don't know why. And she doesn't go back to work. And then it's unclear what Nikki did over the next several hours, because she didn't go to work. However, we know that at 2:22 PM, she finally did call her husband Chad. And he, of course, didn't answer. And that call went to voicemail. So an hour later, Nikki briefly returned to work, then left again at 5:00 PM. 20 minutes after that, she arrived at the Entzel home,

• 21:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  and that's when she called 911, stating that she had just discovered the house on fire. So like we discussed in part one, Nikki told dispatchers she hadn't spoken to Chad since December 30th, when they last talked on the phone. She then told an officer she'd been staying at a hotel since the 30th, because the furnace at the house wasn't working, and because Chad was abusive. So detectives quickly found not only that her story was hard to believe, but that it just, it didn't make sense. It didn't add up. And all the evidence was pointing against her. They started investigating her. However, they did not tell Nikki that Chad's death was being treated as a homicide, or that she was a suspect. Instead, they allowed her to believe that they believed the fire was an accident.

• 22:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  So as detectives continued building their timeline, they learned that in the days following Chad's death, Nikki remained in frequent contact with her boyfriend Earl. She emailed him listings for houses for sale, and spoke with him on the phone multiple times. She also made a claim on Chad's $600,000 life insurance policy, for which she was the sole beneficiary, as well as a claim on the renter's insurance. So Nikki said all of her belongings had been destroyed in the fire. And when asked whether she needed in advance to buy clothes for herself and her children, she said, yes. So, yeah.

• 22:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And there's your motive, by the way, right? Like, she could have easily just ended the relationship with Chad. And if Earl wanted to end his relationship as well, they could be together and, and go on with their lives and live happily ever after. Here's the problem. As long as Chad's still alive, she doesn't get access to that $600,000 for her and Earl to go out and buy their next home. So Chad's gotta be dead in order for her to get that money. And that's, that's the wrinkle here. That's the, the barrier to entry for her and Earl's relationship to go forward and start their new life. They need income and they're going to get it from Chad's insurance money.

• 23:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So it's definitely seems as if Earl has given Nikki some indication that he's going to leave his wife and his family.

• 23:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Stephanie, they just need the money to start that new life. What's the easiest way to get it? You kill Chad and if you get away with it, 600 grand coming your way.

• 23:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I just don't know if I'm Nikki, if I'm going to be doing all of this. Because now it's not just murder, right? It's insurance fraud because we know she went and stole. She, yeah, she took all those belongings out of the house. And then she's telling the insurance company, oh, all my belongings went up in flames. Everything, the house wasn't even like that bad. The house wasn't even that bad. So.

• 24:10Derrick Levasseur?

  The intent was for it to be dust. That was the intent. The intent was for it to not, to be nonexistent.

• 24:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Derrick Levasseur?

  At that point, for sure.

• 24:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's lying to the insurance company, even though she knows and the police know that she went in that night and took out all her stuff.

• 24:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Took all the stuff she cared about.

• 24:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  All the stuff that was hers. So I just don't know if I'm Nikki, if I'm doing all of this and putting myself in this position and actually going forward and killing someone. If he still hasn't left his wife and he's got to leave our caper halfway through to go back to Canada and, and check on his wife and kids.

• 24:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, what if Earl was saying to her, not, not trying to clear her of any wrongdoing, but he's like, listen, you know, we don't have the money, but if Chad's no longer here, we could, I could do it. We would have the money to start over. I could leave everything in Canada, but we have that one little, you know, nuisance in our lives that's keeping us from getting that money. What do you think about? Taking him out. I mean, are you gonna tell us who was the main driver of this plan? Or do we still not know to this day?

• 25:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, even so, okay, Chad's dead now. You still gotta go back to Canada and see your wife and kids?

• 25:16Derrick Levasseur?

  We gotta at least put on the front first to let the insurance claim clear and all that stuff, you know?

• 25:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  The front while she's emailing him listings for houses for sale.

• 25:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I didn't say it was well thought out, Stephanie. All right? I didn't say that they knew what they were doing. I said, by him going back, it's like, oh, there's my alibi. I was in Canada the whole time. You know, I'm not on video moving things.

• 25:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not staying at a hotel under my name.

• 25:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, like I said, I didn't say they were gonna win any awards anytime soon for solving the problems of the world, but you know, listen, they tried.

• 25:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  They, they did. I think they tried, but I think maybe Nikki was a little bit more invested in this than, than her man Earl. Because he's like, I know we just killed someone.

• 25:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Driving force.

• 25:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know we just killed someone together. I know we set up this elaborate crime scene. I know we've been all over the place doing things to prepare for this elaborate crime scene. But just, I gotta go back home for a few days, man. All right? I, I, well, I'll be back. It's really, really very strange that Nikki is so dead set on doing this. And this guy hasn't even left his wife yet.

• 26:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And one more thing too, just, just so we're clear here, Nikki is definitely one of the main forces in this because there's no way Earl knows about the insurance policy unless she tells him. So there had to have been some type of conversation there where she said, hey, you know what? I actually would have access to this amount of money if something unfortunately happened to Chad. So.

• 26:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 26:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Can't get past that. There's no way Earl knows about the money unless she tells him.

• 26:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Also, just a little, I don't know, like a little advice for anybody. If your boyfriend will only leave his wife because you have money to start a new life with him, and it's not because he loves you and wants to be with you. It's probably not, it's probably not a real relationship. And I mean, if you have a boyfriend who already has a wife and family, it's probably not a real relationship.

• 27:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope.

• 27:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  No. Okay. So on January 6th, as detectives were still building their timeline, Nikki asked to return to the house with one of the detectives. And during that visit, she now offered new information, saying she had been at the house on December 30th with a family friend named Earl. Of course, the detectives already knew this, but it stood out that Nikki was now offering the information herself. Why? Why was she offering it? Well, she went on to explain that they were just picking up a few items so she could stay at the hotel. Nikki said Chad wasn't there at the time when they were there, and she heard from him later that night when he sent a message asking her to call him in sick on December 31st. Well, once again, does Nikki not know that they're going to have access to her phone and her phone records? This is just bananas.

• 27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So according to Nikki, the reason was because they were going to be playing drinking games, which she described as code for abuse. This was a code term for abuse. Remember, this is what Nikki was telling people, that Chad would play these drinking games where he would really, get really drunk and then just like abuse her all night. So when the detective asked to see those messages, Nikki couldn't provide them. What a surprise, because they don't exist. Once again, Nikki had been caught in a lie. Even so, detectives still didn't have enough evidence to arrest her or Earl. So they asked her to come to the station the following day for a follow-up interview, and they framed it as a chance to clear up a few loose ends. And they told her it would likely be her final interview. But none of that was true. If Nikki can lie, so can the police.

• 28:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So their plan was to let Nikki repeat her story one more time and then confront her with what they already knew and how they knew it. So on January 7th, Nikki returned to the police station for a follow-up interview. She's sitting down, she's like, "I'm in the clear, man. All right, I'm about to get $600,000. I got my new man with me. This is my last interview. I gotta wait with this. I don't know what about her made her feel that way, but she did." So she initially sat down with a single detective who did not mention that Chad's death was being treated as a homicide. Instead, he told Nikki he didn't want to put her through much more and that once she finished talking, she could move on, focus on her family, focus on moving forward. He asked a few housekeeping questions, then had Nikki walk him through

• 29:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  her side of the story. She repeated the same version of events she had already shared about her alleged abusive relationship with Chad, the furnace not working, staying at a hotel, stopping by the house with her friend Earl on the evening of December 30th to grab a few things while Chad was at bowling. The detective let Nikki talk for nearly an hour and a half before stepping out briefly to get water. When he returned, it was over. The tone of the interview shifted and he asked Nikki what she thought had happened to Chad. She said she didn't know. The detective then told her he had left no stone unturned in the investigation. He had phone records, surveillance footage, and other evidence, and he knew Chad's death was not an accident. It was not a suicide. Chad had been murdered.

• 30:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he asked Nikki whether she knew anyone who could have been involved, and Nikki said no. He asked whether she or Earl had noticed anything unusual when they were at the house on the evening of December 30th, and again, she said no. So the detective then shifted his approach, asking directly whether she and Earl were dating. Nikki said no. She insisted she was a married woman. The detective told her he knew that she and Earl had gone back to the hotel together and were staying in the same room. Nikki continued denying any romantic relationship, but did acknowledge they had shared a room. She claimed Earl already had the room and offered to let her stay when the furnace stopped working. According to Nikki, she accepted the offer and she slept in the living room area of the hotel room. The detective knew Nikki was lying, and at this point, why is she still lying?

• 30:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because he just told you. He wasn't just telling you like, hey, we know you're with Earl and he's your boyfriend. He was saying, we have surveillance. We got phone records. We got it all. And she's still lying. So he kept pressing her, telling her he believed she was a good person and that they just needed to understand what really happened here, what really happened to Chad. And she kept saying she had no idea. He then switched things up again, asking whether Nikki and Earl left the hotel after midnight on December 31st. Now Nikki knows, he already said we got surveillance, we got cellphone records. She doesn't really know what he's got, cause she's not too bright. She doesn't know what all that means. But Nikki then gave a vague answer, right? She doesn't want to answer directly no anymore. She said, you know, Earl's a smoker

• 31:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  and they would leave the room so he could smoke. They didn't ask you if you, if you left the hotel room. They asked you, did you leave the hotel after midnight? She's like, we'll leave the room sometime so that Earl can smoke. The detective pushed back and he was like, listen, I need you to be honest right now. I already know you left the hotel premises that night. You gotta tell me the truth. Nikki then changed her story and said they went to look at Christmas lights.

• 31:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Aww.

• 31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, how romantic. With, with just a friend that you're sharing a hotel room and now, you know, you're having, he's helping you get your stuff out of the home you share with your husband who's apparently abusive. And you're not sleeping together, but you're gonna go look at Christmas lights together, like friends do, when they have whole ass families back in Canada. So I'm gonna play you a clip of that interaction right now.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  Did you guys ever leave the room that night?

• 32:26Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  So you don't remember if you left the room Monday night?

• 32:39Speaker 03

  I smoked. I mean, maybe that night outside, maybe you smoked. He's, I mean, he does smoke, he can smoke in rooms.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Nikki, I looked at the video, I know you left that night.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  I want you to, to be as honest with me.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  I know, we went to Candy Island.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  Where's that?

• 33:03Speaker 03

  Just up there.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  How it says that the whole lane is full of Christmas lights.

• 33:18Derrick Levasseur?

  So, real quickly, I actually struggled to hear what she was saying exactly. I heard the Christmas lights at the end there. One little technique here, if we pull up a screenshot of this interview, if you're watching on YouTube, one thing the detective is doing here, and they actually teach us this, is called mirroring, where you're trying to emulate the body language of the person you're speaking with to make them more comfortable. So you can see, she's kind of hunched out forward, she's got her hands together, she's holding him. He's doing the same thing. Maybe that's organic, maybe that's a strategic move. But I like what he's doing here. The only thing I don't like, if we want to circle it, is if you can notice there in the bottom right-hand corner, he's got his firearm on him. That's a big no-no. Not supposed to do that. Surprised, maybe he got in trouble for that. But whenever you interview a potential suspect, you are not supposed to have the firearm in the room.

• 34:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because they could grab it and use it, right?

• 34:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm going to tell you a quick story. I don't want to get off tracks here. If you get a second, everyone needs to search Jimmy Allen, Providence Police Department. Same exact thing, brought his firearm in the room, and I'm not even going to say the scumbag's name, but this is while I was on the job, took his gun from him and killed him with it. So, this is a big no-no. This is a big no-no. But other than that, I'm not making it about the detective here. This technique is something where you get them to be more comfortable with you. You don't present yourself as an authoritative figure, you present yourself as a friend.

• 34:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I kind of felt like he's leaning into her, kind of like, you know, this is an intimate conversation, it's just between you and me. Their voices are low, it's like, yeah, what happened? Did you leave Monday? You know, very like, this is intimate, like, just between you and me.

• 34:45Derrick Levasseur?

  If you didn't know better, if you didn't see the gun, you would think they were friends.

• 34:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, she's, at the beginning, she's just kind of saying like, "I don't, I don't remember. I'm talking like a little girl. I am so sad, officer. What did I do? What did you pull me over for? I have no idea." And then, when he's like, "Did you leave?", you know, and she's like, "Well, he smokes. I don't remember he smokes." And then he's like, "We have surveillance footage", and before he's even done with his sentence, she's like, "We went to Candy Cane Lane."

• 35:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh my god.

• 35:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  He just pops out with that, which I'm gonna give her some credit here. Like, we have seen she's not super good at foresight, but you kinda did come up.

• 35:23Derrick Levasseur?

  She had that one in the hopper.

• 35:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where, where did it come from? It's like Candy Cane Lane, man. Is it, we, we went there. Where did it come from? She kinda did pull that out of nowhere. I don't know if she had planned to tell them that, if, if push came to shove, or if she just sort of pulled it out of thin air. But yeah, that's kinda hard to check up on. If, if she doesn't know that they have the motion sensor data and everything at the home yet, and she just knows that they've seen her on surveillance leaving the hotel, go and coming up with the Candy Cane Lane Christmas lights thing, not, not the worst excuse. So we're gonna take a quick break and we will be right back.

• 35:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you could stop somebody from breaking in before they ever got inside your house, honestly, why wouldn't you? Most old school security systems only go off after someone's already in your home. And at that point, sadly, it's sometimes way too late.

• 36:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's what makes Simply Safe different, right? It's proactive, right? There's a double layer of defense that's designed to stop crimes before they even start.

• 36:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely. And first, their AI-powered cameras can spot potential threats outside your home. Then, live monitoring agents can actually step in. They're gonna talk directly to the person through the camera, let them know they're on video, and warn that the police will be dispatched if they don't leave.

• 36:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and what I like about Simply Safe too, that a lot of other companies do not do, is it can even trigger a loud siren or a spotlight. And that combination alone, just in my experience, is more than likely enough to send someone running, because now they know that they've been spotted and they potentially being recorded, and that's gonna deter them.

• 36:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And plus, I love that there's no long-term contracts or hidden fees. You can cancel anytime, which honestly matters a lot if you've ever been stuck in a contract with one of these predatory security companies. Plus, Simply Safe has been named Best Home Security System by US News and World Report for five years in a row. They have cameras, like we talked about. They have a ton of other stuff. Go on their website and check it out. CO2 detectors, glass break detectors, they have it all.

• 37:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And there's a 60-day money-back guarantee, right? So if you're, you can try the product out. If you don't see a difference, you can return it, so there's zero risk.

• 37:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  I genuinely love how easy it was to set up. I'm not good at technology. Derek knows, you all know. I get peace of mind when I'm away. I can check everything right from the app. The app works really well, and it feels really good knowing my home is protected without being locked into a long-term contract. So Derek, how can they get Simply Safe for themselves? Because you and I both use it. We both endorse it.

• 37:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Great deal for the holidays. This month only take 50% off any new system. And this is one of the best prices you'll ever see for Simply Safe. All you have to do is go to simplisafe.com/crimeweekly. Again, that's simplisafe.com/crimeweekly to lock in your discount right now. There's no safe like Simply Safe.

• 38:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So after Nikki finished telling her really clutch Christmas light story, a second detective entered the room. Now, by this point Nikki had been there for more than an hour and a half, lying the entire time. The new detective told her that she needed to be honest about everything. He said he had reviewed the entire case and he knew that she was not telling the truth.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  So, um, I know you've been talking to him and told him some things. Some of that I can tell you right now is not true. I know we, you know, we have video like he said. We have when you're coming and going from that room. But I think that some of it you just need to explain a little bit better, maybe.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Like for, for me, I missed out on some. What's your relationship with Earl?

• 38:58Speaker 03

  We've known each other, like that he first bought cookies and there we've, you know, we've come into the area, we've, I've like catered or cooked for him before and we've more so developed a doggy relationship. He's hung out with my kids. I've, you know, I've met his daughter. I've, you know.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  Have you met his wife? You said he was married, right?

• 39:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I've not met his wife. Nope.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  Okay. So what was Earl doing in North Dakota?

• 39:27Speaker 03

  He's coming here to, he's got a couple of project manager jobs that he's coming to scout and all that, so.

• 39:34Speaker 04

  Okay, all right. And Chad knows Earl?

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  Okay, are they friends?

• 39:40Speaker 03

  They've met. They've hung out. They've, you know, so he's came over and.

• 39:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so first of all, it's super funny. So she says, I've known Earl because I've catered for him. I've cooked for him. Remember Nikki owns a catering company allegedly, right? And then she's like, I met him, I met his daughter and the detective is so shady for this. He's like, have you met his wife?

• 40:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that was nice.

• 40:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was nice. She's like, uh, did you even know he had a wife? She's like, no, no, I knew. No, I never met her. Uh, yeah, that's, that's funny. And then she goes on to say that Chad, her husband, has also met Earl a few times. Uh, I don't know if that's true, but I just thought it was, it was really kind of awesome on behalf of the detective to be like, did you meet his wife? You know, pop in there with that.

• 40:28Derrick Levasseur?

  This two-person approach in interrogations, I personally never liked it. Uh, so when he's leaving the room to go to the bathroom or to get a water or I'll be right back. I have to go check something. He's consulting with this guy on the right, right? He's talking to him. They're, he's taking notes. You can see he's got a binder on his, on his lap there.

• 40:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Do you think the other guy's even been watching maybe through like?

• 40:51Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. That guy's been sitting there watching the interview from the other room and he's taking notes in that binder, right? So he's cross referencing what she's saying, making notes. And then this guy, the guy to the left is coming out there saying, hey, anything I missed? And he's like, well, she said this, you know, go at that, go at this. And she's contradicting herself here and we have something that proves that. So there's a kind of a teamwork going on there. And in some cases, if the person's not opening up to the first detective, you'll have a second one come in, kind of like that whole good cop, bad cop approach. I always felt like I lost people because I was building rapport with them. And then someone else would come in and kind of basically break up our relationship. Now there's a third person in the, in the, in the relationship.

• 41:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you, you feel betrayed. You, you are looking at the, at the suspect and you're like, this guy, right? What the hell is he here for?

• 41:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. It also, it just, to me, it just like. Distracts the suspect like you have someone there now instead of her being closed toward the one detective where they're leaning in at each other and they're talking and it's more intimate. Now she's kind of bouncing back and forth between the two. You can see she's kind of facing in between them. And now she feels like she's outnumbered, right? Now they're against me. It's two against one. So I personally never liked this approach. Maybe it's going to work here. It's worked many times before that. So just something that I see and I get, you can almost see the body language of the guy in the maroon shirt. Doesn't he look defeated if you just screenshot it and look at it? It's like he was all into it. Now he's just kind of sitting back like, man,

• 42:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  slump.

• 42:16Derrick Levasseur?

  slump like stole my thunder.

• 42:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's like, he's like, the coach put me in and it didn't work.

• 42:21Derrick Levasseur?

  And also they step on each other a lot too. When you do that, you're always, because everyone wants to get in there and ask their question and you have the ability to step on each other. So just something.

• 42:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you said, you said, hey, this sometimes happens when the person's not opening up and isn't cooperating, which you know, Nikki's been there for almost two hours at this point and she has lied. So so they probably, and also I almost wonder if like the first cop who's supposed to be like the good cop. Now if he's been talking to her for two hours and not telling her, I know you're lying about everything. We know everything. I just wanted to see if you were going to lie. If he's the one now to kind of pose that and be like, haha, gotcha. The last two hours of us talking was just me lying to you. Just like you're lying to me. And actually you know more than I'm saying. Maybe that would disrupt the trust that she already had for him. So you.

• 43:05Derrick Levasseur?

  It depends on the person. Depends on the person. I don't know. This guy more than likely, the guy in the gray is senior, senior detective. And when he says things like, oh, I wasn't listening. I wasn't here for the first part. What's your relationship with her? He a hundred percent knows what it is.

• 43:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, of course.

• 43:19Derrick Levasseur?

  He's been listening the whole time. He's just playing dumb. And more than likely, anybody with half a brain knows they're lying. So for me, I always wanted to just be straight up with them and like, here's the deal. Here's what it is, but. You know, listen, it's worked a lot of the times like this where you have two people in there. It's, I've even had success with it with two people, even though I didn't want it, it was just because my lieutenant said I had to. But you know, that's, that's a little, little story from the Chronicles of Derek as a detective.

• 43:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, at this point, I'm sure Nikki's on the defense because she was told like, hey, just come in, tie up some loose ends.

• 43:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she knows she's in trouble.

• 43:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's your last interview, but now she's been there for over an hour and a half. They're like, hey, we have more than we told you we had. We know you're lying. And so she's already on the defense. And I don't think either of these people is going to get an ounce of truth from her at any point. Yeah. So then the detective asked Nikki, why was she staying in a hotel with Earl?

• 44:05Speaker 03

  He was already, had already had a room there and I told him, I said, I was upset Monday and I said, you know,

• 44:12Speaker 03

  I just, I need some time, the furnace isn't working, it's forever getting thing. I said, I, and I told Chad, I said, I can't keep doing, you know, furnace working. And I don't want to be here. I said, it's been all pretty much since we've been living here. I said, you know, I don't want to be here. I said, you know, we hadn't, we hadn't turned anyone who was drinking, you know, and at that point, I said, I just left. I, you know, I did work. It worked Monday, you know, I seen them open up to the house with me, we grabbed some stuff and left.

• 44:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the detective asked Nikki what Chad thought about her sharing a hotel room with another man. So in this version of the events, Nikki is making it seem as if she's staying in this hotel room with Earl and her husband Chad is well aware of it, even though from her text messages, which by now she should realize that the cops have, and if they don't even have her, her text messages of the details of what she's saying, they will now because they're probably going to take her phone before she leaves this interview room. And she knows that they're going to take her phone and she probably knows if they ask her for her phone, she's not going to be able to say no, really. She's going to have to cooperate with that. And we know that she was telling Chad, she was on a business trip, not even in, in the same location, not even in the same area.

• 45:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's on a business trip. So she's saying, he knows I'm with this other man in a hotel room. And they're saying, what does your husband think about that? And Nikki said, he'd be okay with it, right? Because she and Earl had taken a trip to Texas before and they stayed in the same hotel room then. So in her mind, this was no different. And it really isn't. Like if you're going to stay in a hotel room with a man that's not your husband. Whether you're in Texas, or Oklahoma, or whatever, it is no different. So the detective continued pressing her about the true nature of her relationship with Earl, but she continued to maintain that it was not romantic. The detectives then laid out more of their cards, and they revealed that Nikki had not fully shut down the home security system like she thought she had. The motion sensors were still recording activity, which meant they knew she had returned to the house after midnight on December 31st.

• 46:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so the detective asked, "Why'd you go there? You went to Candy Cane Lane, and then you went to your house. Why did you go there?"

• 46:26Speaker 03

  I went out.

• 46:28Speaker 04

  You went out where?

• 46:31Speaker 03

  Out in the house, I wanted to get my meds.

• 46:35Speaker 04

  But you said that you keep your meds in your purse?

• 46:39Speaker 03

  I don't have any of my meds.

• 46:40Speaker 04

  Okay. Okay, so tell me what happened when you guys were out there? Because it was you and Earl, it's on video.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  I couldn't find them, I had my patches in there.

• 46:54Speaker 04

  Patches? Just medication patches? Okay.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  I couldn't find my patches, so then, so I'm not... I'm not going to go in the house and drink around. I usually have them out, so...

• 47:11Speaker 04

  So you couldn't find them, so you left? Okay.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  Because I have them, I always have them on a stand. There's a stand when you first come in, where there's your crock pot. And so, I left, I said, "I can't find them."

• 47:30Speaker 04

  Right.

• 47:31Speaker 03

  I'm not going to drink around with them.

• 47:34Speaker 04

  So what happened when you guys were in the house? Because Chad was there, at that point.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  Chad was out drinking.

• 47:49Speaker 03

  I couldn't find them, and I was hiding. I was sleeping. She was drinking, and she left us up in the...

• 48:01Speaker 04

  Well, here's the only problem with that, Nikki, is you guys were there for an hour and 40 minutes.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  You didn't look for your patches for an hour and 40 minutes, while Chad sat there drinking.

• 48:18Speaker 04

  Look at me Nikki. You did not look for your patches or your medicine for an hour and forty minutes while Chad sat there drinking.

• 48:29Speaker 04

  Did you?

• 48:30Speaker 03

  I couldn't find my patches.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  I, I, I understand that. I believe that.

• 48:34Speaker 03

  He counted the kitchen and...

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Doing what?

• 48:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so, I don't know, did you get the same thing from this, that Nikki claims the ID go back to the house?

• 48:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Well now, yeah, now she's, they're already breaking our story, right? It's not, you're not trying to get all of it at once. You're trying to chip away at the original alibi. You just want to open them up and make them susceptible to the fact that they're lying. And by doing this, she's, she's acknowledging that her original story wasn't true. If you remember, first it was, we went back to the, to the hotel or motel. Then it was, oh, we went out to Candy Cane Lane. You know, we went out to, to get, to see some Christmas lights, right?

• 49:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 49:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And now it's, okay, maybe we did go to the house. Maybe we didn't just go to look at Christmas lights. Maybe we did stop by the house, but it was only quick. So they don't need her to give up everything at once. They just gotta slowly chip away until they get to some version of the truth.

• 49:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was quick. I had to get my, my medication.

• 49:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 49:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then they're like, but why were you there for an hour and forty-five minutes? And she's like, well, I couldn't find my medication.

• 49:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, the win is getting her to admit that she was there. Now they got her.

• 49:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  That she was there. In the time period that the detectives have already decided is when Chad died.

• 49:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. They, they got her at this point. Inside, they're jumping for joy.

• 49:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, this, I mean, they pretty much already had her, but...

• 49:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is true.

• 49:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  She could've just kept going with the Christmas light story.

• 49:54Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but you want, as a detective, you want the confession.

• 49:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 49:57Derrick Levasseur?

  You want to hear them say it.

• 49:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it's a confession of placing her at the scene of the crime, at what the detectives believe to be is the time of the crime.

• 50:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 50:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's the confession. She has not confessed to doing anything to Chad. So the detective kept trying to get Nikki to tell him what really happened. Nikki claimed she and Chad, who apparently was sitting there drinking the whole time while she was trying to find her medication, they were arguing about the furnace, and she decided to leave with Earl to go back to the hotel. She went to the garage, um, she went back to Earl's vehicle without ever finding her medication. Earl put on his boots and the two of them left together. Why does Earl not have his boots on? If he's in the car?

• 50:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the detective did not believe her explanation, obviously, but moved on, asking why Nikki returned to the house again around 6:30 a.m., but only for a few minutes.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  I need my patches, so I snuck into the house.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  And I went running and grabbed my patches.

• 50:53Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  And ran right back out.

• 50:55Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:57Speaker 03

  And left.

• 50:58Speaker 04

  So you ran in and grabbed your patches and so now, you can run back out there at 6:32 and be back out of the house in about five minutes? And you knew where your patches were, but that hour and forty minutes that you guys were out there earlier?

• 51:11Speaker 03

  They weren't in the bathroom.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  I ran to the bathroom. I didn't have, I can't find them. I finally got something back from Austin's office.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Okay, but that has nothing to do with that. You're telling me that you spent an hour and forty minutes out at the house or a couple hours earlier looking for your patches? And couldn't find them? And then at 6:32, you go out there and just running and grabbing and you know where they're at?

• 51:36Speaker 03

  Maybe I have them in the bathroom. I will check the bathroom.

• 51:40Speaker 04

  So for an hour and forty minutes, you didn't check the bathroom?

• 51:43Speaker 03

  No, that's what I'm arguing.

• 51:45Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  Once you said something, I didn't even have to manage.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. You know, I, I think that you feel bad about what happened.

• 51:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, look at me though. You feel bad about what happened, don't you?

• 52:00Speaker 03

  About what?

• 52:01Speaker 04

  What, what's happened to Chad? At this point?

• 52:04Speaker 03

  I have nothing to do with what happened to Chad.

• 52:06Speaker 04

  Alright, here, here's the deal on this. The longer time goes on, which you do know, it's not gonna get any easier. It's gonna keep building up and building up on you. You're not gonna later on feel better about this.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  The only way you're gonna have any closure to this at all is for you to be honest with us. And since I've been in here, you haven't been honest to me at all.

• 52:36Speaker 03

  I don't know what's happening up. I don't. That's why I asked you guys.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  But then why do you keep lying to me?

• 52:50Speaker 03

  All I was wanting to do was run out and grab my passport.

• 52:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Alright, I'm just gonna say, and I had not seen this interview beforehand. This is why I hate this style interview. And I know where we're going to, right? But I want to talk about this because I do think it's fascinating. I know the dynamic. I also know the hierarchy within that police department just by the way this interview's going. That guy sitting in the corner now, who was the lead interrogator, he's definitely junior to this other detective. Maybe not even a detective. He could be a sergeant or a lieutenant. He got sick of waiting and now he's completely taken over the interview. To the point where the original investigator has been kind of set to the back corner.

• 53:32Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like his chair keeps even moving further away or something.

• 53:35Derrick Levasseur?

  And this other guy is knee to knee with her now, completely cutting him off. I hate this. It might accomplish the job, but I hate it.

• 53:44Speaker 05

  I feel like this is a little bit of like, projection from you.

• 53:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely it is. I was a guy who was 20 years old as a police officer, 24 years old as a detective, had more training in interrogations than a lot of the guys in detectives. And I would always have some other guy come in and take over my interview and do a shitty job at it.

• 54:03Speaker 05

  Yeah, but you don't know if this guy has more training because he had an hour and a half with her and didn't get anything from her.

• 54:09Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not saying this guy is good. The other guy, I'm just saying I hate this dynamic. I hate it. And yes, I am projecting because I had been in interviews multiple times.

• 54:17Speaker 05

  You're triggered, man.

• 54:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, I hate this. I have multiple videos of the same thing happening to me. And this guy in the corner here, I'm circling him. Shannon, circle him. That's me, dying inside.

• 54:30Speaker 05

  Derek just got the guy's email address and he like sent me an email. He's like, "I just saw the interview, man. I'm so sorry."

• 54:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Stephanie, zoom in on that guy. Tell me he's not completely defeated.

• 54:41Speaker 05

  He's defeated. He is defeated. I agree with you.

• 54:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, don't take a body language gesture. He is like, "This guy just completely came in here and hijacked my interrogation."

• 54:48Speaker 05

  He's like, "They didn't even give you a chance, man. You could have done it. I believe in you."

• 54:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I was in interrogations for sometimes five or six hours. Two hours is nothing. This guy came in and just started like, "Oh, I'm just gonna be there to be your team member. I'm gonna just be there to support you." And has completely hijacked this interrogation.

• 55:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Look at this, from the previous video we saw, what happened here?

• 55:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I swear his chairs moved back at least like five places.

• 55:13Derrick Levasseur?

  The next, I won't be surprised, I've never seen this.

• 55:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's completely turned his body away, he's checked out.

• 55:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm waiting for us to fast forward into this clip to where he's not even in the room anymore.

• 55:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  You fast forward from the clip? And he's standing in the corner of the room with his face to the wall?

• 55:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 55:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's got a dunce cap on.

• 55:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yup, yup.

• 55:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Derrick Levasseur?

  And I don't know if this install is gonna work with her. Based on the person you're dealing with, I don't think this approach works, for her.

• 55:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  The new detective isn't doing a terrible job, because he's doing exactly, like, I could have done this, right? She's like, he's like, "Why were you there, at 6am?" You know, just a few hours after being there looking for your medication. She's like, "Well, I had to run in to get my medication, I need my medication." He's like, "So you took an hour and 45 minutes to find it the night before? But now you can just run in and in a few minutes you find it?" And you go, she's got no response to this, right? And he's saying, like, "You're lying, you're lying, like, you've done nothing but lie here." And then she starts crying, which, listen, this isn't, I'm not trying to make this like a, like a gender-based thing, but I have seen in many cases where women will do this, because he simply asked her, like, "I know you feel bad about what happened." And her response is, "I didn't have anything to do with what happened." Like, lady, he's not asking you that.

• 56:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, I know you know that they think you had something to do with it, but all you had to say was like, "Of course I feel bad that this happened, that's my husband, I love him, of course I feel bad." But she gives the guiltiest response ever, "I had nothing to do with it." And he's saying, "You've done nothing but lied to me," and then she starts crying, she starts crying, right? Because this is what, this is what some women in these situations will do, where it's like, okay, turn on the waterworks, the lying hasn't worked, the denying hasn't worked, maybe the crying will work. And spoiler alert, it doesn't.

• 56:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I personally would have went with the approach of, Earl killed him, didn't he?

• 57:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  You would throw Earl under the bus?

• 57:02Derrick Levasseur?

  As a detective, I would throw Earl under the bus, I would give her an out, because again...

• 57:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, you're saying the detective should have said it was Earl?

• 57:08Derrick Levasseur?

  We're chipping away to get to the truth, so you got her in the, the, the, the house, that's number one. Now you want her to admit that she knows. That Chad was murdered. Doesn't have to be her yet.

• 57:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or at least acknowledge that it's a possibility that Earl did it, right?

• 57:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Is it possible?

• 57:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Derrick Levasseur?

  You were, listen, you might have been in that bathroom. Did something happen between Chad and Earl while you were in the other room? Did something go down that you didn't expect to happen? Right? Get her to admit to that. Then, once you do that, even if she doesn't go as far as saying, "I knew about it and I planned it," now you bring Earl in.

• 57:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Earl, she's pinning it on you, Earl. She's saying you did it all, yeah.

• 57:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I would have went, you give her an opportunity to feel like, "Oh, there's a way I can still win. I gotta throw Earl under the bus, but they think Earl did it." "Oh, I'm gonna go with that. They got us. I'm gonna go with Earl. I'm gonna hop on board with this out that they're giving me." You're not giving her an out. You're still charging her too, but she doesn't need to know that. So, I just don't like this approach. It probably works because of all the evidence they have, but I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't outright admit in this interview that she did it. If she does, power to him, but it could have gone a lot smoother.

• 58:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, let's take a quick break, because we're not done.

• 58:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm projecting so hard. I need a break. I need to go take some medication.

• 58:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Derek needs a few minutes to type out a poetic email to the other detective and let him know he's got his back.

• 58:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Stephanie, they know who they are.

• 58:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I see you, detective. I see you.

• 58:36Derrick Levasseur?

  No, these guys-

• 58:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nobody else does, I do.

• 58:38Derrick Levasseur?

  I told you, there was a detective at my job that was nicknamed Cold Case. Okay? Cold Case had a lot of time on the job. Cold Case would always come into someone else's interview and interrogation. To this day, I don't know if he solved the case. Talking about you, Cold Case. Talking about you.

• 58:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's some shade for Cold Case.

• 58:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't even care. He knows. He knows. Let's take a break.

• 59:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  We'll be right back.

• 59:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's a new year coming, and for a lot of people, it's a fresh start. But for a lot of people, it's just the same threat, right? They're dealing with the same thing: debt. Debt is a silent killer. It doesn't make noise. It just multiplies interest compounds. Fees stack up and before you know it, it's slowly choking the life out of your finances and your peace of mind, but the case is enclosed.

• 59:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's where PDS Debt comes in. They've already helped hundreds of thousands of people escape debt, reduce what they owe and take back control. And they do it by creating a plan that actually fits your specific situation.

• 59:39Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 59:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there's no minimum credit score required. They're here to help you save more, pay off your debt faster and start putting money back where it belongs in your pocket.

• 59:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this isn't just some fly by night company. PDS Debt is A-plus rated by the Better Business Bureau, has thousands of five-star reviews on Google and holds a five-star rating on TrustPilot.

• 1:00:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Every month you wait costs you more in interest and fees. And the best time to start was actually yesterday, but the second best time to start? It's right now. So if you need help getting out of debt, PDS Debt might be a great option for you. Stephanie, tell them where they need to go.

• 1:00:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. Don't wait for debt to strike again. Break free in 30 seconds. Get your free personalized assessment and the best option for you at PDSDebt.com/crimeweekly. That's PDSDebt.com/crimeweekly. One more time, PDSDebt.com/crimeweekly.

• 1:00:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So at the end of that last clip, you...

• 1:00:45Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm better.

• 1:00:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, a little bit. We had a little therapy session.

• 1:00:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I had to show her like, yeah, it was bad. I had to show her some truth.

• 1:00:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  She had to show me the guy. And he looked exactly, exactly the way I thought he would look.

• 1:00:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. I'm better.

• 1:00:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we heard in that last clip that Nikki is getting a phone call. So her phone's ringing and she's got to take a call. So after Nikki got off the phone call she had just received, the detective continued telling, the detective Derek doesn't like, continued telling her they knew she was lying and that her story wasn't working. They needed the truth. And so finally, after nearly two hours and 15 minutes, Nikki offered something new.

• 1:01:19Speaker 03

  They didn't go in the house?

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  Okay, you didn't, just Earl went in the house?

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  10:54?

• 1:01:24Speaker 04

  Yeah. So Earl was the only one who went in the house that time?

• 1:01:27Speaker 03

  They didn't go in the house.

• 1:01:28Speaker 04

  Okay, that's not what I asked you. Don't answer questions that I didn't ask you. I asked you, so Earl went in is the only one that went in the house? You didn't go in the house with Earl?

• 1:01:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, almost like I predicted this one, right?

• 1:01:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Derrick Levasseur?

  So now they're going with that approach. He's not doing it the best way possible, but...

• 1:01:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. He's getting frustrated with her because she's so dumb.

• 1:01:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Do you see it?

• 1:01:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Derrick Levasseur?

  You see, he's, he's losing the battle even though he's gonna win because she's easy, but...

• 1:01:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  He, he's getting frustrated because it's like talking to a child at this point. Like, she's, she's, she's so dumb, right? So he keeps saying, "So Earl went in the house?" And she's like, "I don't know." She sounds drunk, by the way.

• 1:02:08Derrick Levasseur?

  The other guy's reading his lunch order.

• 1:02:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  The other guy's, he's reading a book now. He's got the new Stephen King behind that notebook.

• 1:02:15Derrick Levasseur?

  He's completely removed from this.

• 1:02:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not even there.

• 1:02:18Derrick Levasseur?

  You ever wanna see someone get demoted live on camera? Here it is, right here.

• 1:02:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  You ever want to see somebody completely lose their will to live on camera? This is what's happening here.

• 1:02:28Derrick Levasseur?

  He's gonna go home and definitely bitch to the wife.

• 1:02:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's going home and he's like, "He did it again!"

• 1:02:35Derrick Levasseur?

  It's so true.

• 1:02:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's, she's not, she's like answering the questions in the most dumb way because I think she realizes like her back's to the wall, so she's just gonna keep like repeating like, "I don't know." It's like sounding drunk and he's getting mad. He's like, "That's not what I asked you!" He's getting frustrated, you know, like when you're talking to your kid and they know they're in trouble, but they, they won't like fess up to it. So now, yes, she seems to sort of be implicating Earl because the guy's giving her the out. And it's, he's frustrated because he's like, "I keep giving you the out to pin it on Earl." And it's like, "You're not bright enough to pick up on the fact that I'm giving you that out." And then finally she seems to like pick up on the fact that that's what he's doing. And Nikki's responses after this point, they're so quiet, they can't be heard on the recording.

• 1:03:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  But according to the detectives, she said she stayed in the vehicle while Earl went inside the house to grab more of Nikki's belongings. Both detectives asked her repeatedly for more details. Why they went back, what happened while they were there, why they returned again at 6:30 a.m. Nikki did not answer those questions. She kept saying she didn't know anything for the next 20 or so minutes. But as the pressure kept building, she changed her story yet again.

• 1:04:03Speaker 03

  There was somebody else in the house.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  Somebody what?

• 1:04:07Speaker 03

  Somebody else in the house.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Who else was in the house?

• 1:04:11Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:04:14Speaker 03

  Other person?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Why haven't you told me that?

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  I'm sorry.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  Hey, keep going.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

• 1:04:24Speaker 04

  Was it a male or a female?

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  Male.

• 1:04:29Derrick Levasseur?

  First off, my guy's back in the game.

• 1:04:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you know what? I gotta give you credit here because it seems like he's the one.

• 1:04:36Derrick Levasseur?

  His approach is much better.

• 1:04:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  His approach is much better.

• 1:04:38Derrick Levasseur?

  It's much better, man, it really is. He didn't need this other guy, this other guy just needs to shut up.

• 1:04:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's gentle, he's patient. She seems to trust him more than this other guy that came in hot, you know?

• 1:04:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Listen, this other guy, let me just put it out there in case they... This gets to them. I don't know the other guy from a hole in the wall, he may be great at his job, I just don't like his approach. That's just me personally, but it's almost like a mechanic with his tools. Sometimes people can take the same tools and use it for different jobs. Personally, I don't like his approach, sometimes it's warranted, but I... But yeah, my guy's back in the game, and although he's getting more out of her, we know that what she's saying is an absolute lie, so...

• 1:05:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yo, what if, what if, the guy who was in the corner, your guy, was always the senior guy? And he had the other guy come in to act like a clown and stress her all out, so that he could then come in after a very extensive period of this other guy messing around in there, and be like, "Listen, it's just you and me here, the kind gentle one, just tell me, I'm here to help you." Maybe that was the idea the whole time.

• 1:05:40Derrick Levasseur?

  I would agree with you, but you know what causes me not to? One guy still has his hair and the other one doesn't, that's a lot of years on the job.

• 1:05:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh my gosh. The one guy still has his hair, it's just...

• 1:05:52Derrick Levasseur?

  It's running from him. It's running from him. And the other guy has a full head of hair, that's a guy who hasn't seen a lot yet. That's a guy, see, you know, I did 13 years, I still got my hair. Cause I got out in time.

• 1:06:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  He got out in time.

• 1:06:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Cause if you didn't, you would just see me, just... Shiny and bald up here.

• 1:06:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Shiny and bald.

• 1:06:10Derrick Levasseur?

  It happens to everybody. Stay on the job long enough. It goes. So yeah, that right there tells me that hair, that hair is looking at about maybe nine, 10 years on. The other guy's got, he's in his twenties.

• 1:06:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's got, he's got 20, 25 plus years. Alright. So Nikki's now not really picking up on the fact that they want her to pin it on Earl. And maybe she doesn't want to pin it on Earl.

• 1:06:29Derrick Levasseur?

  She knows what they want to do.

• 1:06:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:31Derrick Levasseur?

  She knows what they want to do exactly.

• 1:06:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't really know. She doesn't seem smart, but maybe Earl's the love of her life. And she's like, we're Bonnie and Clyde. We're going down together.

• 1:06:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, if I get away with this, it really doesn't matter if he doesn't.

• 1:06:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. So now she's saying, there's another man in the house. And I've been waiting for her to say this forever, by the way, because that's what I would have said to begin with. You know, it's like, yeah, I was there, but I don't know who else was there. Somebody else could have been there hiding in a closet while I was there and then I left. How do you guys know? Why are you trying to pin it on me? Find out who did that. Go, you better go out there and find out who did this, right? So she's saying, there's another man in the house. She's got no clue who the man in the house was. All she knew was that he was arguing with Chad in the bedroom. He appeared to be in his mid 40s. He smelled like Crown liquor. And he repeatedly called Chad hun. So that's interesting. We're gonna play you one more clip and we'll be right back from that.

• 1:07:24Speaker 03

  He called Chad hun.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  He called Chad hun? Hun?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  Hun. He was on the star.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  I don't know what that means. Hun stop?

• 1:07:35Speaker 03

  Hun, hun, stop.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  He called him hun?

• 1:07:40Speaker 03

  Hun, stop.

• 1:07:41Speaker 02

  Okay. Like how someone would call someone honey, but sure.

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  Hun, stop.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:07:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so now Nikki is like, there's a man, he's arguing with Chad, he's calling him hun. Hun, stop. Hun, stop. The detectives over here like hun, like honey? Or like you call someone honey? And she's like hun, stop. That's all she could say. So detectives obviously asked why Nikki had never mentioned this man before. Nikki apologized and then added another new claim that her husband Chad was deeply in debt due to gambling. Detectives again asked why she had never said that earlier and told Nikki to tell them the truth. She then claimed that at 1:10 a.m. on December 31st, she and Chad argued at the house and she walked out, leaving Earl inside. She waited in the car for about 15 minutes. Earl then came out and when she asked what happened, he told her, quote, "He's not alive."

• 1:08:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  End quote. Earl said there was an argument over a gun, the gun went off and Chad was struck and killed. Nikki said they went back to the hotel, but within hours, Earl became scared and wanted to go back to the house to start a fire. So they returned and Earl moved the propane tank into the bedroom, believing it would ignite the house. Later that night, Earl went back to the house alone and discovered it still hadn't burned down. So now, is the man calling Chad Hahn and the gambling debts just not an issue at all? And now Nikki's saying, actually, it was Earl?

• 1:09:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because she realizes that, yeah, she probably should have told the cops about this, this Hahn guy and the gambling debts before. So now she's just gonna pivot again?

• 1:09:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she knows it's not gonna hold up. She's starting to realize they have more than they're saying.

• 1:09:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So when Nikki was done sharing this news story, detectives asked why she never went inside to check on Chad after Earl told her he was dead. And Nikki said she was in complete shock and she didn't know how to react. Detectives then asked whose idea it was to call Chad in sick the next morning and Nikki replied that it was Chad's idea, claiming he had told her to call him in because they were going to be playing drinking games. So I guess in this scenario, Nikki is saying Chad and she had previously had a conversation about how they were gonna be playing this game where Chad gets drunk and then abuses her all day. And so she was supposed to call in for him because they were gonna do that and he had previously told her that before he died. So she was just going along with the schedule because then the detectives are like, well, why would you need to do

• 1:09:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  that if you knew he was already dead?

• 1:10:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly.

• 1:10:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, right. And then Nikki responded by saying something like, "As a victim, I was scared."

• 1:10:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:10:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense.

• 1:10:09Derrick Levasseur?

  No, and listen, it would make more sense if you didn't go over everything we've already said, right? Like as far as her looking into insurance policies and the text messages and rental homes.

• 1:10:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Taking all her stuff out before setting the fire.

• 1:10:19Derrick Levasseur?

  She was well aware of what she was doing. And as I said, you know, maybe 20 minutes ago, she's the one who brought it to Earl's attention that there was a $600,000 insurance policy, not the other way around.

• 1:10:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Derrick Levasseur?

  So she wanted to go on in life with Earl and she wanted the money to go with it and she knew she couldn't get it with, with Chad still breathing. Period.

• 1:10:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. Yep. So. Then detectives questioned why she didn't respond to repeated calls from Chad's coworkers and why when she eventually did answer, she told them that she was too busy at work to go see if Chad was okay. And then Nikki shifted the conversation. She claimed the police had been mean to her and that they hadn't returned her calls when she wanted to come in and tell them what really happened. And detectives tried to redirect her and get her to focus on what happened that night. And eventually she agreed to write out a confession for what she had admitted that day. When she finished, Nikki grabbed the paper and tried to crumple it up and get rid of it. So, so she writes out the confession of what she's already said and being recorded saying,

• 1:11:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  and she would have been informed, by the way, that this interview was filmed and recorded. And so she writes down the confession and then it's like on the table and she grabs it up and crumples it up and tries to get rid of it. And a detective intervened and told her, quote, "You don't have to be like that about it," end quote. So we actually have a clip of the moment and I've seen this clip before, which is why I'm laughing and we're gonna play it for you now.

• 1:11:45Derrick Levasseur?

  I have not seen it, so I need to see it.

• 1:11:54Speaker 02

  You don't have to be like that about it.

• 1:11:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's gonna really make a difference, Nikki. Good job. Crumble up the piece of paper. It all goes away when you do that. Hey, you notice just my guys in that room, just wanted to point it out.

• 1:12:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and he's like, "You don't have to be like that about it."

• 1:12:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I think he's the one that got the confession. That's what I think.

• 1:12:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  But this is very childlike, okay? This is very childish of her. She's acting like a child. She's talking really low and in a baby voice. And then she writes out a confession and she tries to crumple it up and he's gotta stop and he's like, "Stop, stop, man. You don't gotta be about like this about that, okay?"

• 1:12:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Let it go, it's over.

• 1:12:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Enough. He's just, he's done too, but he's very, very patient, so shout out to him. Now, following that interview, detectives were more confident than ever that both Nikki and Earl were involved in Chad's murder, which I think is safe to say, everybody's more confident now. So while they didn't believe Nikki had told the full truth, it ultimately didn't matter at that exact moment. Based on her statements and the evidence they had already gathered, they believed they had enough to move forward with charges. So Nikki was arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit arson, and conspiracy to tamper with physical evidence. Detectives also had enough to charge Earl with the same three conspiracy counts along with murder, but because Earl lived in Canada,

• 1:13:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  an arrest warrant was issued for him, which I expect his wife was very surprised about. So two days later, on January 9th, Nikki asked to speak with detectives again and gave what would be her final interview. Once again, she claimed Chad had been abusive and said she was planning to leave him. She then told deputies that when she and Earl went to the house in the early morning hours of December 31st, Earl already had a plan to kill Chad, and that she didn't know about the plan until after it had been carried out. According to Nikki, when they arrived at the house, they both went inside. Earl told her to go into the bedroom and make sure Chad was still sleeping. She did as she was told and confirmed Chad was asleep. Nikki claimed Earl then went down to the basement and retrieved a gun. Earl went back into the bedroom alone, and over the next five to 10 minutes, Nikki

• 1:13:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  said she heard two gunshots. Nikki told the detectives that she then went into the bedroom and saw Chad dead on the floor. She said there was a lot of blood, including blood on the wall.

• 1:14:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, how did he know where the gun was?

• 1:14:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Hmm, I wonder.

• 1:14:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, she's, why did, why did Earl want to make sure that Chad was asleep, Nikki? So Nikki claimed Earl then began staging the scene to make it look like Chad had killed himself. She said he placed an alcohol bottle in the bedroom to make it appear Chad had been drinking, and took one of the spent shotgun shells. According to Nikki, Earl then started a fire in the bedroom. The two of them left the house and went back to the hotel, and then they saw Christmas lights. And she said Earl later returned to set additional fires. So detectives believed this version of events was closer to the truth than Nikki's previous stories, and I think it is exactly the truth, just with her being a willing and knowing participant, personally. So even so, the police still did not believe that Nikki was being fully honest. So while detectives could accept that Earl may have been the

• 1:14:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  one who fired the shots, they did not believe Nikki had no knowledge of what was going to happen. The evidence did not support that claim. As a result, Nikki's conspiracy charges remained in place and she was returned to jail. That same day, Earl turned himself into Border Patrol after learning there was a warrant out for his arrest, which I gotta give him credit there because he could have made it very difficult, right? He could have made it difficult and he could have made them like have to go through extradition and all that stuff. But he didn't. He turned himself in.

• 1:15:14Derrick Levasseur?

  He's got a wife and kids. I mean, he's, he knows he's done.

• 1:15:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and he's probably like, I know this dumb idiot Nikki is probably trying to blame me for everything, so I should probably get in there and give my version of the offense.

• 1:15:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he might be thinking if I turn myself in, I'm cooperative, I can put it on her.

• 1:15:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Well, when his vehicle was searched, investigators found a black hat, sunglasses, and a trench coat, along with a brochure for real estate. They also located a journal containing bank and phone account information in Nikki's name, as well as diagrams of unspecified electrical wiring. So after Earl was extradited back to Bismarck, he agreed to speak with detectives. Full details of his confession have not been made public. However, we know that Earl claimed Nikki went into the house and shot Chad, and that he later offered to take care of it by destroying the evidence through arson. So after hearing from Earl, detectives still could not say with certainty who had actually pulled the trigger, Nikki or Earl. So the shotgun was sent off for testing in an effort to determine who fired the fatal shots.

• 1:16:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  In the meantime, charges against both defendants remained in place. Nikki and Earl each pleaded not guilty, and Earl's defense team attempted to have his charges dismissed, arguing that the case against him relied solely on Nikki's statements, but the court denied that request. Earl then sought to have his case severed from Nikki's, but a judge denied that motion as well. Now, there's gonna be, this isn't gonna be a quick resolution, right? It's not gonna be like these people are in court and, you know, the jury finds them guilty or not guilty, and we know exactly what happened. This is gonna take a while, so we're gonna take our last break and we'll be right back.

• 1:16:53Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:17:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's the key part here because if you've ever tried to research or record after a sugar crash, let me just tell you, it's not great and I'm sure Stephanie agrees.

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• 1:17:55Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:18:45Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:19:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Quince really nails the essentials every guy or girl actually needs. We're talking Mongolian cashmere sweaters for around 50 bucks, Italian wool coats that look and feel like they're designer-level coats, and denim and chinos that actually fit the way they're supposed to. In fact, I'm wearing flannel right now, and this is from Quince. I wear Quince all the time on the show. I wore Quince on Traders as well, that quilted jacket that I wore, the black one with the corduroy collar.

• 1:19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:34Derrick Levasseur?

  That was my secret weapon. Everyone's asking me, "Where'd you get the jacket from?" I got it from Quince.

• 1:19:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, I was going to say their outerwear lineup is no joke. And I have dipped into the men's outerwear lineup that Quince has for many gifts this year. They've got down jackets, wool top coats, leather styles. Everything is built to last and holds up season after season.

• 1:19:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's like the jacket I just mentioned, right? It got me through the cold winter, but it also, I thought it looked really good on the Traders. It was warm, structured, and honestly, it looks way more expensive than it actually was.

• 1:20:04Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:20:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and it's not just clothing either. Quince has gifting covered beyond apparel, home, bath, kitchen, travel, which it can be a little dangerous, especially if you're not trying to keep everything for yourself.

• 1:20:25Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. And over the next year, the case moved slowly, largely due to the COVID-19 pandemic, which affected courts and police departments across the country. We all remember the year that that everything changed in time. I think we we went on to a different time loop. But at the start of 2021, results from testing on the shotgun finally came back. But regrettably, the testing couldn't determine whether Earl or Nikki had fired the weapon, which I was questioning because I was like, how are you going to know who fired the weapon? You know what I mean? Based on testing that weapon?

• 1:21:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Based on DNA, fingerprints. Now, if you would expect to find Nikki's DNA on there, potentially fingerprints, that could be explainable. But if you find Earl's DNA on a shotgun that he didn't own and supposedly had never touched, well, he's got some questions to answer.

• 1:21:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but we also know that that shotgun was on the bed in a room that was set on fire. So even if the fire didn't like destroy the house.

• 1:21:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, more than like that would destroy everything.

• 1:21:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So without that evidence, authorities could not corroborate Nikki's claim that Earl was the shooter. And because her statement was the only evidence supporting the murder charge against him, that charge was dismissed. All other charges against both Earl and Nikki remained in place, and their joint trial was scheduled to begin in October of 2021. But just four days before the trial was set to begin, Earl entered a plea agreement pleading guilty to arson and three conspiracy charges in exchange for a 25 year sentence. As part of that agreement, Earl was not required to testify against Nikki at her trial, which is disappointing, right? I don't know why they would have made.

• 1:22:25Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think they needed it.

• 1:22:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, at first, I was like, I don't know why they would have made that decision. They probably needed Earl's testimony. But yeah, like you said, this was actually a strategic decision by the prosecution. They didn't believe that Earl could be relied on to testify truthfully against Nikki anyways. And they were concerned he might still try to protect Nikki. So after Earl was sentenced and sent off to prison, the prosecution continued preparing for Nikki's trial, which was postponed for nearly another year. So in September of 2022, Nikki finally went on trial. And the prosecution told the jury that they weren't positive who killed Chad, Nikki or Earl. All they knew for sure was that Nikki and Earl had conspired together to kill Chad and staged the scene to look like a suicide. They did this so they could collect the insurance money and then move to Texas to start a new

• 1:23:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  life together. Like we just talked about, the prosecution did not want Earl to testify. So instead of relying on his version of events to prove Nikki's guilt. They focused on the evidence, right? They focused on laying out the detailed timeline of Nikki and Earl's movements that detectives had built. So the defense argued that none of the prosecution's evidence proved Nikki was part of a conspiracy. Which, that's ridiculous. The insurance claim, the claiming his, getting his insurance money, calling the funeral home before you allegedly knew he was dead? Come on. So they suggested that if anything, the evidence pointed to Earl, who was conveniently not part of a trial. So the defense told jurors it was troubling that Earl did not testify and argued that

• 1:23:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  without testimony from the alleged shooter implicating Nikki, there was reasonable doubt as to whether she could be considered a co-conspirator. So in the end, the jury sided with the prosecution and they found Nikki guilty on all charges.

• 1:24:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank God.

• 1:24:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank God.

• 1:24:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that would have been crazy.

• 1:24:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after the verdict, Chad's family spoke to the media, saying it was time for them to begin healing. They said they wanted Chad to be remembered for who he truly was, a kind man who would do anything to help others. And then in February of 2023, Nikki returned to court for sentencing and both sides presented arguments regarding what they thought the punishment should be. The prosecution asked the judge to sentence Nikki to life in prison without the possibility of parole, arguing that she had shown no remorse and had actively planned Chad's murder. The defense asked that Nikki receive the same sentence Earl had received, 25 years. Defense counsel argued that Nikki was, quote, "easily seduced," end quote, "by Earl," adding, quote, "I think he had a lot to do with how things transpired.

• 1:24:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was a manipulative relationship and Nikki, for lack of a better word, was easily seduced by Earl and his fairy tale life stories," end quote. So I think what the defense lawyer was trying to say without saying it was Nikki, for lack of a better word, is not smart. She's not, she's not a smart person. She was easily seduced. But once again, I go back to all the ways she planned for this, right? Like calling into Chad's work and saying he wouldn't be there and making sure that she wasn't there and she was staying at a hotel because the furnace was broken, but then the police now know the furnace was not broken. All of those things are really hard to ignore. So Nikki also gave a statement, once again, maintaining her innocence. She then claimed for the first time that Chad not only abused her,

• 1:25:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  But abused her sons. Because remember, the children that were in the house with her and Chad were not Chad's sons, they were hers. So there's absolutely no evidence of this. Everyone said Chad loved Nikki's sons, never hurt them, whatever. I don't believe it. So after hearing from both sides, the judge rejected the defense's arguments stating there were no facts to support the claim that Earl was a manipulator. He said the defense was, quote, "just making up the facts," end quote, "in hopes that the court would accept them." What? That's a good judge, okay? Because he's calling it like it is. The judge also addressed Nikki's credibility, stating, quote, "It seems to be an ever-changing story, depending on what fits her circumstances and what she thinks will help her," end quote. Nikki was then sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole after 36

• 1:26:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  years. She later appealed her convictions but was unsuccessful. And you might think that this would be the end of the story, but it wasn't. Of course not, because it's Nikki. So after Nikki's conviction, 2020 interviewed her in prison. And during that interview, Nikki continued to maintain her innocence. When asked about her relationship with Earl, she denied having an affair and claimed that Earl was "not her type." When confronted with a photo of herself and Earl kissing inside a Walmart, Nikki responded, quote, "I don't see no kiss given at all," end quote.

• 1:26:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. Nikki then told a completely different story than she had ever given before. This time, she claimed she had no idea if Earl killed Chad because she didn't go to the house after midnight on the 31st. She'd actually been out for a walk during that timeframe, going to see more Christmas lights, probably. She left the hotel sometime around 1 a.m. and she didn't return until 2:42 a.m. Now, no one believed a word that Nikki was saying, and after that 2020 interview, she largely faded from public view. No further interviews have been conducted with her, and she is currently serving her sentence in North Dakota's Women's Prison. Her estimated release date is the year 2100.

• 1:27:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is way beyond her life expectancy. Earl remains incarcerated as well with a projected release date in 2040 when he will be 66 years old. And I wonder at the time that he's released, will we get some answers to this? Like, will Earl come out?

• 1:27:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably not.

• 1:27:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And give an interview and be like, this is what happened? Because he can't be, well, I suppose he was never charged with Chad's murder. So he could technically be charged with the murder if he says anything. So yeah, probably not. He probably won't say shit.

• 1:27:51Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not, he's not gonna say anything.

• 1:27:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Earl and Nikki will spend decades in prison because of what they did, but the consequences don't end there. Chad's family and friends are left to live without him, without his support, his presence, and the role he played in their lives. Chad Entzel was more than this crime. He was a son, a brother, a friend, someone who mattered, someone who trusted people and took care of people, did right by people. And like his family said, that's how he should be remembered. But now I want to ask you, Derek, given what we know about this case, given what we know about the people involved in the case, which to be fair, we don't know a ton about Earl. But who do you think pulled the trigger?

• 1:28:25Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it was Earl. I do think it was Earl. I think it was a collaborative effort.

• 1:28:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you think they both knew, both planned Earl pulled the trigger?

• 1:28:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's what I think. I think that it was originally an idea that may have been broached, or at least hinted at by Nikki. Listen, we want to be together. We want to start a life together. We're gonna have a problem doing so. I don't have a lot of money. You don't have a lot of money. We have family obligations. How do we get around that? How do we circumvent that? And let's just say for the sake of this conversation, that there was a little bit of truth to what Nikki was saying about Chad as far as being someone who was abusive. I have no evidence to suggest that, but let's just say for the sake of this conversation, maybe he was verbally abusive, right? Just something, something to, in her mind, justify doing this, where she's like, you know what? He's mean to me. I'm gonna take the money.

• 1:29:18Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not gonna be able to give it to me while he's alive, so I'm gonna take it through any other means necessary. And if I had to guess, it was her who brought up the idea of killing him for the money, or suggesting that if he was no longer around, they would have access to the money. And then maybe it was, it was Earl who said... Well, maybe we can make that happen. Maybe we can facilitate that. And you know what? I definitely think he was an aggressor in the plan. He flew all the way down from Canada to carry out this act and then flew right back home. So he knew what he was getting himself into. And although it wasn't a well thought out plan, there was some planning done by both parties. They did attempt very unsuccessfully to hide what they had done.

• 1:30:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, he had to make travel arrangements and hotel reservations. Yeah.

• 1:30:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I think what, what Nikki has said, there's some, the truth is in there somewhere, right? Like they go into the house. I think Nikki goes in to make sure that Chad's asleep, right? He's not, if he's still awake, seeing her is not going to raise any red flags. She goes in there, he's sleeping. She comes back out, says the gun's downstairs, grab the gun, you go in. She might even leave the room at that point. Maybe she doesn't want to see it. He kills him. They do everything else with the heaters, hoping that by the time law enforcement finds the place, it'll be just a bag of dust. But fortunately for investigators, that didn't happen. Doesn't bring Chad back. Shouldn't have happened this way, but at least the people responsible are in prison.

• 1:30:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I, I, I think, I think you're probably right. But there's not a, a part of me that believes that if it wasn't Earl and it was someone else and he wasn't willing to do it, that, that Nikki still would have found a way to take her husband's life, right? Because I don't think she ever wanted to really marry him for any other reason than that to begin with. She wanted someone to take care of her, which he did. They didn't know each other long, right? And then they're getting married. I think she was the main driver behind that. And then of course you're married and now there's a life insurance policy and you're the main beneficiary, the sole beneficiary, because he doesn't have kids. And yeah, I think that this was probably in the cards for her for quite a while.

• 1:31:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it might have just accelerated it because I don't think she was seeing Earl because she needed someone to do it. I think that she wanted to be with Earl. So this pushed up the timeline of killing Chad.

• 1:31:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  But if it wasn't Earl, it would have been someone else, you know?

• 1:31:44Derrick Levasseur?

  And I do think she was probably easily influenced by others, no doubt about it. And I think that Earl told her, hey, if we had this money, yeah, we could be together. And so she's like, well, there's one way to do that then.

• 1:31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or she said, if we had this money, we could be together.

• 1:31:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair. That's fair. It depends on the dynamic of the relationship. Who was more into it?

• 1:32:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Either way, they both went along with it.

• 1:32:03Derrick Levasseur?

  They both went along with it. And clearly Earl was not an innocent party in all of this, like we have already said. He came down from Canada just to carry this out. So they're right where they need to be. It's unfortunate that Earl will get out in 2040. I don't agree with that. I don't think you needed him to confess the way he did in order to get the conviction. I think it was there. But with prosecutions, they, they do look for the safe bet, right? If they can get someone off the streets until 2040, they'll take that over them walking scot-free for the, and, and having no repercussions for their actions. So I do understand the thought process.

• 1:32:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, at that point, like if Earl's saying, I didn't, I didn't pull the trigger and Nikki's saying, I didn't pull the trigger. What, what do you really do? What do you really do?

• 1:32:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, you're charging both and they both go down for it, but it is a risk. I, I will acknowledge that you do that. You go through trial, they find a technicality in there, both of them walk scot-free. That's a big risk to take when you can get one for at least 25 years. And then by getting that confession, you know, he didn't get into the house without Nikki's help. And you hope that the jury sees that as well. And clearly they did. It worked out.

• 1:33:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, absolutely. So let us know what you think in the comments.

• 1:33:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, please. Let us know. Do you think it was, do you think it was Earl? Do you think it was Nikki? Who was the primary planner here? Who set this all up? Do you agree with me? And do you agree with Stephanie that Earl was the one who pulled the trigger? We want to hear your thoughts. Uh, before we go, just real quickly, again, I know we talked about it at the beginning. Happy holidays to everybody. We'll be off next week. We're going to take a little bit of a break to hang out with our family, but we will be on sometime during the week that we're off to have a YouTube live, probably at night. Where we'll sit down and we can talk about whatever you guys want to talk about. So if you're not following us on YouTube, make sure you do. We will put something out on our Instagram, social media, also on the community page of YouTube

• 1:33:55Derrick Levasseur?

  to let you guys know when that's going to be. I warn you now, make sure you're following because it's probably going to be spur of the moment, maybe a, a day before. Or the day of. That's just how we roll. But we will do it, we promise. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We will see you in two weeks or on the YouTube Live if you join us. If you don't, happy holidays. We'll see you in the new year.