Donnie Darko

A plane crash puts a premature end to a precocious protagonist… on screen and off. This week Chris and David explore Richard Kelly’s cult classic debut film, Donnie Darko. Learn how a fateful meeting with Francis Ford Coppola, the undying support of Drew Barrymore, and a high school band’s cover of a Tears for Fears track secured Darko a place in cult-film history. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Winterbauer?

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• 0:31Lizzie Bassett?

  12 celebrities, one Don, and cold, hard cash. From the producers of The Traitors comes The Mob, a new Hulu original series now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. In this unique new reality competition show hosted by the iconic Parker Posey, 12 celebrity contestants are about to become members of a powerful family. For two weeks in a lavish Italian villa, they'll shake down and hustle to win a share of up to $250,000. And every good mob needs a Don. Whoever they choose to lead them will have absolute power deciding who stays and who gets taken out, who makes money, and who walks away with nothing. In a game of power where loyalty and trust are the currency,

• 1:15Lizzie Bassett?

  will the most powerful reality contestant in TV history be able to keep the family happy? And if they're overthrown by the mob, who will step up and become the new Don? Let the games begin. Watch The Mob, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 2:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to What Went Wrong, your favorite podcast full stop that just so happens to be about movies and how it is nearly impossible to make them, let alone a good one, let alone a genre-defining cult classic.

• 2:17Chris Winterbauer?

  That was underappreciated upon its initial release. As always, I am Chris Winterbauer. Lizzie Bassett, my co-host, is enjoying her last week of maternity leave. So this week, we have the next best thing, the man responsible for her maternity leave, our producer, David Bowman, who first introduced me to the film we are discussing today almost exactly 20 years ago. And that is, of course, Donnie Darko. David, how are you?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  I'm good, man. Lizzie and I are finally settled down. It's been a wild few months. As people know, we had to leave Pasadena because of the fires and because we had the baby on the way. And although I would not recommend having to move around the West Coast, well, in the second half of the third trimester of pregnancy, we're doing really well. Lizzie is doing amazing as a mom, and she can't wait to get back to you guys soon. And I am just honored and excited to talk about a movie that is so near and dear to my heart.

• 3:17Chris Winterbauer?

  Obviously, we watched it together. It wasn't the first time you'd seen it. It was the first time I'd seen it back sophomore year of high school. What were your thoughts upon rewatching it for the podcast?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  I think the first time I saw it, I have three older sisters, and I'm guessing that one of them had it and probably was raving about it. And so I decided to watch it. I watched it with them. And I surely didn't understand it, even to the extent that people who understand that they don't understand it, get the gist of the movie. But there was something, as you mentioned, in that article that you wrote on Patreon, which people definitely should check out if they haven't. But there's something about the vibe of this movie, and it taps into the visceral feeling of being a teenager, or puts you back into the mindset of being a teenager, even watching it now at 36 years old. Um, I remember feeling like, you know, I was meant to do something really profound at

• 4:13Speaker 02

  that age and I hadn't fully outgrown the idea that I was kind of the center of the universe and any unseemly or depressing or serious things that happened in my realistically very plush suburban life were kind of the equivalent of Donnie's struggles with mental illness and Frank and all the squares in his community who he thought he knew better than and kind of did. It kind of played out the fantasy of that normal but odd creative kid who could have this huge impact on the world. And I think that was the major point of connection for me. And upon rewatching it, I realized that it's not just Donnie,

• 4:56Speaker 02

  but his family and his teachers and Gretchen that really drive the movie home. Those relationships and those characters and the way that they're played create a world where while we're able to live vicariously through Donnie, we're also able to connect with other characters that see the world and are dissatisfied in the same way that Donnie is.

• 5:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, I think the fact that it was passed down from an older sibling is a perfect encapsulation of what this movie was for our generation. So we are smack dab in the middle of the millennial generation. This movie came out when we were about 12 and as a result, it was, in my experience, one of the first instances of a movie that was not shared with me by way of somebody of the next generation, the older generation. It was within my generation, it was shared. So previously, I was exposed to film mostly through my dad, right? 80s, 70s, early 90s, action films. He was my funnel or gauntlet that I traveled through in order

• 6:00Chris Winterbauer?

  to get to film. And all of a sudden, Donnie Darko was the first film, not the first, but one of the first, that felt like something passed around within our generation, as if it was a secret from our parents in some way, which is obviously thematically resonant. I completely agree. The movie totally captivated me at age 15. And as a 15-year-old, upper-middle-class white boy with very few problems, it was immensely relatable and I-

• 6:30Chris Winterbauer?

  Think the movie does a good enough job capturing, again, the ennui of high school that hopefully it appeals to a broader audience than just, you know, people who feel they're an exact corollary for Donnie. But I do think that when you watch it at an older age, as I just did, and it had probably been 10 years since I'd seen it as well, you definitely, you notice the flaws in the way that you don't when you're younger, and I, and I did. But like you said, David, the movie captures a feeling so well and so earnestly. And the interpersonal relationships in the movie feel so honest that I was transported back, I enjoyed it just as much, you know what I mean,

• 7:13Chris Winterbauer?

  as I did when I was younger. It feels like a time capsule. And you know, the other thing I really noticed about Donnie Darko, the watching it this time, is how many of the production elements just hold up so incredibly well, from the production design to the costume design, the cinematography, which we will get into a lot of detail about, and of course, the music. It all makes it feel so timeless, even though it is so specifically rooted in such a specific moment, both the time period in which the movie was set, but also obviously the time in which it came out.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:48Chris Winterbauer?

  So as we'll learn, the story of Donnie Darko's making in many ways mirrors the journey of its precocious protagonist, a young man with aspirations, if not delusions, of grandeur, the guidance of a few key mentors, and a premature death at the box office. But first, the details. Donnie Darko is a 2001 sci-fi psychological thriller coming of age film written and directed by Richard Kelly. It was his debut film. It was produced by Sean McKittrick, Adam Fields, and Nancy Javonan. It was produced under Nancy Javonan and Drew Barrymore's Flower Films Production Company banner. It was distributed by Newmarket Films. It stars, of course, Jake Gyllenhaal, Jenna Malone,

• 8:33Chris Winterbauer?

  Mary McDonnell, Drew Barrymore, Noah Wiley, Maggie Gyllenhaal, Holmes Osborne, Beth Grant, James Duval, Patrick Swayze, and more. It's very much an ensemble cast. The IMDb logline for the film reads, "After narrowly escaping a bizarre accident, a troubled teenager is plagued by visions of a man in a large rabbit suit who manipulates him to commit a series of crimes." Which is the plot of the film, although I would argue upon re-watching it, those are actually arguably the least important elements of the movie, as we'll get to.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like just a man-sized bunny suit would get me to watch this movie.

• 9:15Chris Winterbauer?

  Sources for this episode include, but are not limited to: It's a Mad World: The Donnie Darko Oral History, published by The Ringer in January of 2021; Donnie Darko: The Inside Story by The Hollywood Reporter; How We Made Donnie Darko: The Guardian; Donnie Darko: Crafting a Cerebral Classic: American Cinematographer; Richard Kelly's book on the making of the film; and our interviews with cinematographer Stephen Poster and Steadicam and camera operator Dave Kamites. Donnie Darko did not reach a wide audience upon its initial release, but it has become one of the biggest cult classics in the history of cult classics. It is a seminal and singularly unique encapsulation of teen alienation,

• 9:58Chris Winterbauer?

  or at least, as I mentioned, white, upper-class, male teen alienation. It is a film that I would argue in the end benefited precisely from the topical issues that plagued its release, as we'll get to. So the question remains, how did a 23-year-old, no-name writer-director, with a script chock-full of red flags, from teen gun violence to pedophilia, plane crashes and philosophy, get this indie film made? To find out, we'll need to wind back the clock, not 28 days, but 28 years. In the summer of 1997, Virginia-born Richard Kelly was a 22-year-old punk fresh out of USC Film School with big ambitions and not much else.

• 10:42Chris Winterbauer?

  And like so many film school grads, he had a terrible job. He was a client assistant at a post-production house, and he made cheese plates for pop stars. David, one is a huge female, maybe the most recognizable female pop star of all time, or second most. Any guesses?

• 11:01Speaker 02

  What year was this event?

• 11:02Chris Winterbauer?

  This was in 1997.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Britney Spears?

• 11:05Chris Winterbauer?

  Madonna.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 11:07Chris Winterbauer?

  And Weird Al, apparently. But at night, like Donnie, he broke the rules. He used the company's equipment to edit his student short film, Visceral Matter. Now, this movie starred Tim Duquette and a very young Sasha Alexander, who is an actress that you guys would recognize by face, if not name, from Dawson's Creek and Rizzoli and Isles. If you've never seen it, I'm sure you've heard of it. It was an absurd riff on teleportation. I have not been able to find this film online. If any of our listeners have a lead, feel free to share it with us. Sasha Alexander connected Kelly with Sean McKittrick, an aspiring producer and student at UCLA. Meanwhile, Sam Bauer, an aspiring editor, was whileing away his hours at that same post-production house as Richard Kelly, looking for something interesting to do.

• 11:51Chris Winterbauer?

  Bauer caught wind of this weird little movie called Visceral Matter. He leveraged the fact that the other assistants that Kelly had roped in on the project didn't really seem to get it, and basically forced his way into Kelly's inner circle. So Visceral Matter becomes this project that brings together three important players. Richard Kelly, our writer-director, Sean McKittrick, his contemporary producer, and Sam Bauer, his editor. And I will say, if anyone here is listening and interested in film school, really, the only reason to go to film school is less to make connections in the industry and more to meet talented people in your cohort who you can eventually go and make movies with, like David and I have had the opportunity to do.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:31Chris Winterbauer?

  I went to USC, and David was doing a composing program at UCLA. And we had obviously grown up together, but David started working with a bunch of other USC directors, you know, et cetera. So that's the reason to go.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 12:43Chris Winterbauer?

  All right. Student films typically don't go anywhere, and Visceral Matter was no exception. But Kelly had found the two people who would believe in Donnie Darko from the get-go. If you want to write, you have to write. And so by October of 1998, Kelly realized he needed to write. He was still working his assistant job. He was living with four roommates in Hermosa Beach. He has his nights, and he's got the seed of an idea, the tiniest little fraction of an idea. And I'm not going to make you guess, but I'm sure anybody listening could guess what idea precipitates Donnie Darko.

• 13:17Chris Winterbauer?

  And it's from a news story that he read as a child. A chunk of ice fell from an airplane's wing and into a young boy's bedroom, which was thankfully empty in this story that Kelly tells. So Kelly spun that out into the opening of the film as he later said, what if it's an actual engine that somehow gets ripped off a plane? Then I thought, what happened to the plane? The plane would have crashed. Then I thought, what if they never found the plane? There was no plane and they couldn't figure out where the engine came from. I thought, okay, that's a cool mystery.

• 13:46Chris Winterbauer?

  So the setting, Middlesex, Virginia, was a loose riff on his hometown of Midlothian, Virginia. And the time period was roughly analogous to his coming of age. Donnie's technically a little older than Richard Kelly was, but more or less he said it in his childhood. As Kelly later said, Grandma Death, the old lady, was a real person and self-help lessons were actually taught on my school curriculum. It was meant to be an amusing and poignant recollection of suburban America in the Reagan era.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  There is something deeply familiar about the self-help feeling stuff, even from our childhood, which I'm sure was much more extreme in the eighties. Cause they were, they were kind of just turning out that kind of stuff.

• 14:25Chris Winterbauer?

  Dare, dare is somewhat similar.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Dare and like people coming to role play. I feel like we all had that kind of thing.

• 14:32Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, like having the drama department play dead for a drunk driving instructional that the fire department is giving. Or like, I distinctly remember at our high school and David and I went to high school together. They brought in this comedian who was very funny and he endeared himself to us. And then it all pivoted to be about a school shooting and about how the police use the language game over, game over. When they are subduing a school shooter in a school environment. And it was such a 180, it was so drastic.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I think this is one of the ways that Donnie connects with the audience. It becomes a surrogate for the audience because we all remember the classroom presentations that had something akin to the fear, love spectrum or. Someone coming to class and talking about bullying where we were all or most of us were thinking, who are they trying to connect with? How could they possibly think that this is penetrating the minds of us students?

• 15:23Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, what's funny is it's now that I'm a parent, I can see, of course, the full circle. You hit adolescence, right? You become a teenager and you realize the world is no longer black and white, or maybe for some people, they realize it much earlier than I did. And all of the sudden, everything that's presented to you as a binary just reeks of bullshit and you want to scream it to the rafters. But what of course you don't know, and that I now know as a parent, is that the reason you're trying to present it as a binary is because when you're 16, you're too stupid to parse the difference between one shade of gray and the next. So you have to have things presented to you as a binary. And so it's a bit of a vicious cycle and I can now appreciate everybody's perspective on it. But yes, the vibe of Nancy Reagan,

• 16:06Chris Winterbauer?

  paternalistic, there is good, there is evil, there is fear, there is love is very relatable, I think.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Right. And if nothing else, that stuff needs to be mentioned and hammered in just as frequently as possible. It's like advertising.

• 16:19Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah. So Kelly's writing and he decides the story is going to climax on Halloween. Makes sense. He's writing this during October. He's got Frank in a six foot bunny suit. And he decides to give the story a literal ticking clock. 28 days, 6 hours, 42 minutes and 12 seconds. Now, according to Kelly, that's almost exactly how long it took to write the first draft. So he writes this draft in a month. I completely buy this because this is so autobiographical. And I think a lot of first films actually come much more easily to writers than second films, you know, third films.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can relate to that.

• 16:59Chris Winterbauer?

  The material's been building for 23 years and then the next one's a little harder. Kelly takes another pass by himself. He shares it with Sean McKittrick, his producer, and McKittrick says he was blown away, but the movie needed work. His concerns were that, one, it was 140 pages long, which is too long. It's especially long from a runtime perspective. If you assume a minute per page, that would be. Two hour, 20 minute movie. It's also long just to get an agent to read it. They don't have representation. They don't really have connections in the industry. They're going to need somebody to take a leap of faith on them just to read the script. And time is precious. The movie was also confusing, as you might expect.

• 17:40Chris Winterbauer?

  McKittrick didn't want to explain everything, but he needed to explain enough that the audience was going to continue to read it until the end. So two to three months later, Kelly's got a 128 page draft. Now Sean McKittrick was an assistant at New Line Cinema at this point. And again, this is where it's important to recognize that connections in Hollywood don't need to necessarily be connections to the top. So McKittrick sends this to eight assistants at various agencies. I can say from experience, this is exactly how I got one of my short films in front of a lot of agents and managers. It was shared by the kindness of assistants. Treat assistants well. They're the reason we all get jobs. Within two weeks, CAA comes calling.

• 18:25Chris Winterbauer?

  They do a vetting meeting with Dave Ruddy. He worked for Beth Swalford, a heavy hitter in the Lit Department. Kelly gets a call from four agents at CAA. They want to sign him. He takes the meeting and he's got two conditions. One, I'm directing Donnie Darko, nobody else. Two, Sean is producing Donnie Darko.

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. So they didn't, they didn't just want to represent him based on the script. They actually were saying, we want to make this movie and we want to represent you while we do it.

• 18:55Chris Winterbauer?

  I, it's impossible to know. I think they saw that he was talented. They saw that the voice was unique. Whether or not they thought the movie was makeable is debatable. But I think what they smartly realized was this is an interesting script. And if we send it to production companies around town, regardless of whether or not they want to make it, they're going to want to meet Richard and that could lead to additional work.

• 19:20Speaker 02

  Gotcha.

• 19:21Chris Winterbauer?

  That's my guess. So CAA does what any good agency does. They send Kelly and McKittrick out on meetings, meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting. And the great thing about meetings is you get to meet a lot of really important people in Hollywood. But the terrible thing about meetings is they don't pay. In fact, they actually cost you money because you are having to pay for gas to drive around town. And these are hours when you could be writing or working your day job that you can't do that. So Kelly and McKittrick found that they'd fallen into this classic Hollywood trap. They had a script that everybody liked, a script that everybody thought was cool, but it was a script that nobody wanted to make. It was, according to McKittrick, viewed as a great writing sample, but an unproducible writing sample. It would get Kelly into the room, but no further. Now, Kelly was adamant

• 20:05Chris Winterbauer?

  from the start. The only person who was going to direct Donnie Darko was Richard Kelly, but we did read that there were other directors interested in the project. Now, it's unclear. Did an agent send it to them and say, hey, this kid's not going to be able to get this made, so maybe you could? Who knows? But the name that did come up that feels like a completely out of left field option was Joel Schumacher.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 20:30Chris Winterbauer?

  Who, on the one hand, makes zero sense for this. If you guys have seen Batman and Robin, for example.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:36Chris Winterbauer?

  But considering he also did the number 23, maybe he would be interested in something somewhat zany, conspiratorial. Schumacher's just so campy, and this is so earnest, that I just don't see the tones vibing personally.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  What year was the number 23? I thought that was after.

• 20:53Chris Winterbauer?

  10 years after this. I'm just saying, he was eventually attracted to that material. So.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Gotcha. Okay.

• 20:58Chris Winterbauer?

  Kelly wasn't interested, though. This was his movie. It was his vision. So they needed to beef up the package, right? So they've got a producer with no credits, a director with no credits, and a script that's a little difficult to understand. Nobody's going to give them any money to make that. So they need to attach an actor, and they needed to attach a Coppola. So in late 1999 or early 2000, hot off of his debut film Rushmore, Talia Shire's son, Jason Schwartzman.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:30Chris Winterbauer?

  Read the script. Jason Schwartzman is of course Francis Ford Coppola's nephew. If you guys are unfamiliar.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:37Chris Winterbauer?

  So like Richard Kelly, Schwartzman was a bit of a vundikind. He had received rave reviews for his turn in Wes Anderson's sophomore outing. He was the drummer in an up and coming indie band. Phantom Planet, if you're unfamiliar.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Things are starting to play.

• 21:52Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, they of course are responsible for California, the opening song of The Incredible, The O C, a series near and dear to my heart.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  And of course, the lead singer of Phantom Planet, who plays the bully, who holds Donnie at knife point in the bathroom, was he cast?

• 22:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Yes.

• 22:08Speaker 02

  Because of Schwartzman?

• 22:09Chris Winterbauer?

  So, yeah, so Seth Nevelin, I think is his name. I believe he was cast off of Schwartzman's involvement and then obviously continued on the project, even though Schwartzman was no longer involved. And then Schwartzman eventually left Phantom Planet, I believe by 2003 as well.

• 22:25Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 22:26Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, and obviously you had other actors like Seth Rogen from Freaks and Geeks. Ashley Tisdale's in this movie.

• 22:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:33Chris Winterbauer?

  For about a split second, if you really look for.

• 22:35Speaker 02

  At the assembly.

• 22:36Chris Winterbauer?

  At the assembly, yep. So there are, you know, so many talented performers that made it into this movie. Too many for us to get to ultimately. And of course Schwartzman was still only 19 years old, even though he looked like he was 32. Now Schwartzman liked the script, but nobody told Richard Kelly because Schwartzman's agents were convinced that it was a nonstarter. And they were right, this was a classic catch 22. They said, Jason, no one's going to make this movie because Kelly and McKittrick couldn't get anyone to attach to be in the movie. And so they were stuck. Kelly and McKittrick insists that eventually they caught wind of Schwartzman's interest. They called his agent and they convinced them that if Schwartzman attached to the movie, it would get made. But there's a different version recounted by producer Adam Fields.

• 23:20Chris Winterbauer?

  Now Fields came on to the project after reading it as a writing sample. He said that it reminded him of a John Hughes movie.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 23:28Chris Winterbauer?

  I guess, kind of, a sci fi John Hughes. Fields claims that they had given up on getting the movie made and he was the one who thought to attach Jason Schwartzman. Then he says that he planted an article in the trades that announced Donnie Darko would begin production in seven months with Schwartzman as the lead.

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 23:48Chris Winterbauer?

  And then his phone blew up, quote, "Hey, why didn't I know about this movie? I just got dressed down at the staff meeting for not covering this movie. Why didn't you tell me?" And I said, "You never called me back." The movie was suddenly real, so it started gaining momentum. If it's in the trade papers, it must be real. "Oh shit, there's jobs here. We need to cast this movie. We need to put our clients in it." End quote.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Wow. First of all, that is a crazy, ballsy, high-risk thing to do. But maybe he didn't get in trouble for stuff the same way that you do now. Also, it sounds like luck was on his side, so I'm glad it panned out for him. And as far as Schwartzman goes, I mean, I could see Schwartzman in it if it was like a John Hughes movie, in the sense that you have this kind of loser kid and it's much more about like his place in the high school and there's more social dynamics and stuff going on. But he's not the same kind of looker as Gyllenhaal.

• 24:44Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah.

• 24:44Speaker 02

  And just like anytime you consider a different director or cast member, it just completely changes it. I mean, would it have been more different with Schumacher directing and Gyllenhaal playing the lead or with Kelly directing and Schwartzman playing the lead? It's a, it just totally changes the game.

• 25:02Chris Winterbauer?

  Schwartzman, especially at this point in his career, he does have a great hangdog look, which lends itself to this. But he was so confident in the way that he played his characters. I mean, the whole joke of Rushmore is, you know, he's brilliant. And that carried through a lot of his early roles. He was the boy genius. That doesn't speak, or that doesn't really feel like the tortured genius of Donnie Darko. But what I find interesting is that in a weird way, Schwartzman's aged into more of like, if you've seen more, some of his more recent work, a Darko-esque feel, whereas Gyllenhaal has become the more glamorous, you know what I mean, sort of movie star.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  More popcorn.

• 25:46Chris Winterbauer?

  Popcorn movie star of the two. So it is interesting, but I think, again, who knows? He's a great actor, might have totally worked.

• 25:54Speaker 02

  He is a great actor.

• 25:55Chris Winterbauer?

  It's hard, it's hard to imagine anyone else and it's hard to imagine him specifically after Rushmore in this role, for me.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 26:07Chris Winterbauer?

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• 28:49Chris Winterbauer?

  Regardless of how Schwartzman got attached, I could not figure it out if it was, you know, because Kelly McKittrick called his agent or Adam Fields planted this article. It is agreed that he got the ball rolling in a big way, and Jenna Malone was the second domino to fall. So Schwartzman attaches, and then they reach out to Jenna Malone. She was already in name. She had just done Bastard Out of Carolina. She had done Contact. If you guys haven't seen it, she plays a young Jodie Foster. Stepmom. Now Kelly's concern with casting this role was that the actresses who auditioned seemed too young relative to Donnie, or Schwartzman at that point. And again, Schwartzman, he had like a five o'clock shadow by 9 a.m. So they needed someone who felt like high school but could stand up to him from a maturity perspective.

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Did you say how old Schwartzman was at this point?

• 29:36Chris Winterbauer?

  He was 19. Yeah, so he was appropriate. You know, he just looked a little older.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:40Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, I agree with this. Malone, they say, presented as wise beyond her years. And I think you can feel that. She does not feel four years younger than Jake Gyllenhaal in this movie, to me. If anything, she seems more mature than he does, which I think works really well. So despite only being 15, she was perfect. And part of the reason for this might have been the fact that, as unfortunate as it is, she was actually engaged in or about to be engaged in a lawsuit against her mother, seeking legal emancipation, alleging that her mother had misspent a large portion of her earnings thus far.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 30:13Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, so Jenna Malone was already having to grow up much more quickly than a number of her contemporaries.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that definitely speaks to that kind of reserved confidence that her character has.

• 30:25Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah. Now Kelly's gotten one big break, obviously, Jason Schwartzman, but he would need a much bigger one to get this movie made, and that came by way of a very, I would say, at face value, unexpected champion. And that is, of course, Drew Barrymore, who is arguably as, if not more responsible for this film than anybody else outside of Sean McKittrick and Richard Kelly.

• 30:50Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 30:50Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, in the late 90s and early 2000s, Barrymore was more known for rom-coms and comedic actioners, like the film she was actually filming at that very moment, Charlie's Angels, with Lucy Liu, Cameron Diaz, Sam Rockwell, anyone watching The White Lotus. But she'd started a production company with producer Nancy Javonan called Flower Films. I will say Nancy Drew was right there as a production company name. Nancy Javonan, Drew Barrymore, come on.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  Hey, maybe they're still open to suggestions.

• 31:25Chris Winterbauer?

  So they were looking for buzzy titles with buzzy stars to produce, and of course, they were very keen, like everybody at the time, on Jason Schwartzman. So Schwartzman's agent sends the script to Javonan, she loves it, she then, quote, accosted Kelly and McKittrick's agent, and the next day, Kelly and McKittrick, who again are like 23, 24, fresh out of film school, step onto the set of Charlie's Angels to go meet Drew Barrymore, and they are awed by Barrymore, Diaz, and Lucy Liu. They had a couple of slightly boyish remarks you can read in interviews about what that was like.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:01Chris Winterbauer?

  Kelly asked Drew Barrymore, would you be interested in being in the movie? Specifically, would you be interested in playing Karen Pomeroy, the English teacher? Barrymore turned around and said, can I produce it? And now they were in business. Now, Drew Barrymore was a bit of an odd fit for both of these roles, for the role of Karen Pomeroy and the role of producing this movie. Why? Karen Pomeroy was originally written as a much older character, probably closer in age to Donnie's mother and his therapist than Barrymore's probably 30, you know, 28 to 30 years of age at that point. As Fields later said, she was an older teacher who was about to get tenure and retire.

• 32:44Chris Winterbauer?

  Her dilemma was, if I support this, I could lose my tenure. Now, can you guys, I, I actually feel like you can tell a little bit, like when she says, "Sit next to the boy that you think is the cutest." If there was like a 65-year-old woman saying that, it actually strikes me as less inappropriate than Drew Barrymore's character.

• 33:02Speaker 02

  I was gonna say the exact opposite. I was gonna say, I wonder if they rewrote her to play more young.

• 33:08Chris Winterbauer?

  It's entirely possible.

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Just, just because she feels, I mean, I would argue that it, it suggests that she has more of a connection with the students.

• 33:15Chris Winterbauer?

  That's fair.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  Due to proximity to age, but um.

• 33:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Who knows? I do think the final version works. I, it, when I read that, it, a couple things clicked and made a little more sense to me personally. Now, it seems that Barrymore's kind of bright and poppy personality is at odds with Kelly's brooding bookishness, but don't forget, Drew Barrymore's breakout films, E.T., The Extraterrestrial, Firestarter, they were coming-of-age science fiction films, and this was a coming-of-age science fiction film. So it kind of makes a lot of sense for her to return to this, and there are some amblin qualities to it, I would argue.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:53Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, they had a budget, a real budget. Schwartzman's attachment got them into the $2 million range, and when Barrymore came on with Flower Films, that got them to about $4.5 million. They also had a shooting schedule, and it was a very specific shooting schedule because Drew Barrymore was only available to film for one week in the summer of 2000 in between Charlie's Angels and Riding in Cars with Boys. So Barrymore could only shoot between July 24th and August 1st, and so they need to shoot this film with a four-week schedule where that week slots in somewhere in the schedule. They were also worried because Schwartzman was kind of aging out of the role by the day. As McKittrick said, he had

• 34:35Chris Winterbauer?

  a 5 o'clock shadow at 11 a.m. already. I stole his joke from earlier. So, they dive into casting. According to Adam Fields, Catherine Ross, who plays Lillian Thurman, Noah Wiley, who plays Professor Kenneth Monitoff, came next. And Kelly says that Jovanin was instrumental in getting Noah Wiley. Now Catherine Ross, David, do you recognize Catherine Ross, who plays his therapist? She's a very famous, wonderful actress who had not done much for about a decade up until this film.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I associate her singularly with Donnie Darko.

• 35:10Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, I'm sure you actually do know her because she is, of course, an icon of the late 60s and early 70s. Standout roles include Elaine Robinson in 1967's The Graduate.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 35:23Chris Winterbauer?

  At a Place in 1969's Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, and of course Joanna in The Stepford Wives from the early 70s.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Wow, that's kind of blown my mind.

• 35:34Chris Winterbauer?

  She was an icon of the 60s and 70s, really a unique beauty. I think she has a heinously amazing haircut in this film that is perfect for the 80s, but she's still incredibly beautiful and she's a great actress. And I think she's really good in this movie. And they did not think that she was gonna do it. So Kelly and McKittrick go to her house. She is a two-time Golden Globe winner, a BAFTA winner, an Academy Award nominee. And they're effectively saying, like, will you play in three scenes as Donnie's therapist? And in one of them, he's gonna start masturbating in front of you. And you're gonna talk about Frank. They drive up to her home in Malibu in one of their dinky little cars. They're

• 36:16Chris Winterbauer?

  terrified. They knock on the door and her husband answers, and I'm not gonna make you guess who her husband was at the time. It's Sam Elliott. And so Sam Elliott answers the door. Well, are you guys here for chaos? They go in, they sit with her, and before they can pitch her about doing the film, she's pitching them about why they should hire her to do the movie.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Wow, that's incredible. I mean, that's so cool that someone with that amount of stature, even though I didn't recognize her, is just like that passionate about what she does and that interested in doing an indie project.

• 36:54Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it was by choice or not. I did read that she had transitioned to more stage work in the 70s and 80s, but she'd effectively only had one, you know, role in the decade or so prior to Donnie Darko.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 37:07Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, of course, Mary McDonnell was another big actress coming onto the film. She plays Rose Darko, Donnie's mother, my favorite character. She was perhaps best known for Dances with Wolves. And again, like, her agent pushed her forward and they said, wait, will she do this? And they said, yeah. And they're like, amazing, great, we have our Rose Darko. Holmes Osborne, Eddie Darko, Donnie's dad, was cast off auditions. I mean, they just saw him and thought, that's Donnie's dad. And some of the cast were auditioning for the first time, like Jolene Purdy, who plays Chorita Chen. She had never been on camera before. And then, of course, you have James Duval for Frank, which was actually a very unusual choice, because the character was written as a six-foot-tall blonde guy.

• 37:52Chris Winterbauer?

  And James Duval is 5'9". He's got dark brown hair. And he auditioned anyway, being a huge fan of Rod Serling and The Twilight Zone. And he was a decently well-known actor at this point. You know, he was famously, he's Randy Quaid's son in Independence Day, if you guys remember. He didn't get much to do in the audition. It was just the scene after he addresses Donnie after running over Gretchen. But at the end of the audition, he wanted to make something very clear. They're like, do you have any questions? And he says, no, I absolutely get it. Just to make sure that they knew he understood the script, even though I don't know if he fully did.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Absolutely not.

• 38:27Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, of course, there's one role, David, that we haven't discussed, and it was probably the most difficult to cast.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:34Chris Winterbauer?

  Is there a character that you might guess would be hard to cast based on what's revealed of him by the end of the film?

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm guessing it's good old pillar of the community slash child porn fan.

• 38:46Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, traitor, traitor in child sexual assault material, Jim Cunningham.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 38:53Chris Winterbauer?

  This was a charismatic, religiously tinged, self-help guru who is revealed through Donnie's arson to have a, as they refer to it in the film, kiddie porn dungeon, child sexual assault material. They met with David Hasselhoff, who referred to himself in the third person the entire time about the role.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  That's shockingly not surprising for some reason.

• 39:16Chris Winterbauer?

  David Hasselhoff said that David Hasselhoff would never do this, so he passed. And Flower Films had a better idea, Patrick Swayze. Now, they were nearly a decade removed from the highs of Dirty Dancing, Ghosts and Point Break, all films that mostly we have covered on this podcast. And in the interim years, there had been quite a few duds in Mr. Swayze's career. He'd shown an interest in risky parts, though. Tuong Foo, thanks for everything Julie Neymar comes to mind. Javonan was Swayze's champion. She convinces the team to go for it, and lucky for them, Swayze was looking to mix things up. And so he joins into the film and he brings an unexpected bright spot with him.

• 40:01Chris Winterbauer?

  One of my favorite performances in the movie is Beth Grant as Kitty Farmer.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:08Chris Winterbauer?

  The Jim Kenningham acolyte and dance mom of Sparkle Motion, who takes what could have been such a tossaway character and imbues her with such infuriating piety, arrogance and surety that's balanced by just enough obvious love for her daughter that you can't help but love to hate her.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:27Chris Winterbauer?

  And I think she's absolutely fantastic in this movie.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  He asked me to forcibly insert the lifeline exercise cart into my anus.

• 40:36Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, she and Patrick Swayze were actually really good friends from an acting class. And Grant, earlier, had been struggling to come to terms with the fact that she was a supporting her character actress and not a lead actress. And Swayze had been the person that really helped her come to terms with that fact. And so, according to Grant, quote, "They told me that Patrick Swayze was going to be playing basically Kitty's hero in the movie, and we were friends. When I found out he was playing my hero, I said, 'You've got to get me this part, which I swear I've never begged for a part in my life.'" So again, people were just asking to be in this movie.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  That is amazing. She is an incredible part of this movie and she's one of the few characters that brings that level of absurdity to this movie that is there in so many ways in the way that they shoot it with the camera moves and stuff, but, but there aren't a ton of characters who are that off the wall. But she is so funny and I love her so much. Some of the most memorable lines and deliveries of lines in the movie. And also, this is a total tangent, but if we get to the end of this episode and you haven't told me who the fat man is, the guy smoking the cigarette when they almost kiss and standing outside of the house party?

• 41:48Chris Winterbauer?

  Oh, I, I know who he is.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  What is that about?

• 41:51Chris Winterbauer?

  He's an FAA agent.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 41:55Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah. They're just watching the family because they can't figure out what happened.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  That is, how, how do you know that?

• 42:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Richard Kelly said it in an interview.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, thank you for clarifying.

• 42:05Chris Winterbauer?

  I know. There are all these theories like it's Donnie when he's older. So I'm sure I thought that in high school.

• 42:12Speaker 02

  Probably.

• 42:12Chris Winterbauer?

  All right. So at some point in this process, Schwartzman cashes in on his nepo baby status to line up a meeting with Uncle Francie, as he calls him. And of course, that's Francis Ford Coppola for those outside the family. Now Coppola had made, made a deal to make low budget films for United Artists and maybe he could help them out on Donnie Darko. So according to Fields, he and Kelly accompanied Schwartzman to meet the legend and in comes Coppola in Bermuda shorts and flip flops. And Schwartzman introduces Francis Ford Coppola as Uncle Francie. I want you to meet Adam Fields and Richard Kelly. And Fields says, Mr. Coppola, I've always dreamed of meeting you, but he didn't think he'd be introduced

• 42:52Chris Winterbauer?

  as Uncle Francie. Now, everybody's recollections of this meeting differ slightly, but the gist of it seems to boil down to one fact. Coppola tried to either impart some advice upon Kelly or kind of reveal the thesis of his film to him. And basically, he said, this is what your movie's about. And he pointed to one line in the script. And again, accounts differ as to which line it was, but the gist of it was, the parents don't have the answers, so the kids need to figure it out themselves, which is the theme that obviously Coppola has dealt with. Think back to The Misfits. And again, it doesn't seem like he was being condescending. It seems like he was trying to maybe communicate to Kelly, you have a really big opportunity here. Make sure your movie's focused. Make sure it's about one thing.

• 43:38Chris Winterbauer?

  Whatever happened in that meeting, it did not lead to Francis Ford Coppola endorsing their film or helping them make it. And in fact, the movie nearly falls apart.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 43:50Chris Winterbauer?

  A day or two later, Jason Schwartzman drops out of the project.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 43:55Chris Winterbauer?

  So there are conflicting reasons as to why he dropped out. On the one hand, Sean McKittrick insists that Schwartzman had been attached to or was just attaching to another movie that had competing dates, forcing him to withdraw. But it seems like the movie that McKittrick is referencing is CQ, Roman Coppola's featured debut as a director. And Roman is, of course, Francis Ford Coppola's son. And CQ was produced by Francis under that United Artists deal that Schwartzman thought Donnie Darko could fit into. So Kelly has also stated that he thought that Schwartzman did leave due to a scheduling conflict, but he also thinks that Schwartzman was having second thoughts about the role.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 44:40Chris Winterbauer?

  So we can never know, did he leave because he was going to honor his commitment to Uncle Francie's son? You know, did he leave because Uncle Francie gave him some advice, like, you know, not to do it? Did he leave because he just felt deep down it wasn't the right fit and he'd been feeling that for a while? Nobody knows. My simplest guess would be he'd already had kind of cold feet, the dates conflicted, and he had an easy excuse. You know what I mean? To, he could just pick one film over another, basically.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's really interesting is that in a sort of Donnie Darko-esque way, even though he wasn't involved, he is responsible for the film being made.

• 45:20Chris Winterbauer?

  He is, exactly.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:22Chris Winterbauer?

  So Schwartzman's out, but Barrymore and Jovanen remain committed to the movie. So according to McKittrick, they got him and Kelly meetings with every up and coming young actor in town over the following two weeks. A few of the notable names we came across were Patrick Fugit from Almost Famous. You guys remember? Lucas Black, who had just done Sling Blade, and he would obviously go on to do Friday Night Lights, perhaps most notably. Rumored names we could not verify include Mark Wahlberg, which would make sense timing-wise, and Vince Vaughn, which makes no sense to me. But who knows? Maybe they took the meeting.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:59Chris Winterbauer?

  It would have been shortly after Swingers, but I still think he was a little old and very tall. Now, Kellyanne McHutrick needed another nepo baby, it turns out, albeit a less obvious one. Enter Jake Gyllenhaal.

• 46:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 46:11Chris Winterbauer?

  The wide eyed and handsome, but slightly hunched son of director and poet Stephen Gyllenhaal and Academy Award nominated screenwriter Naomi Phoneer Gyllenhaal. As McHutrick said, "It was like Holden Caulfield walked in. Richard gave me this look like, oh, this is fucking him." Kelly said that Gyllenhaal was going through an emo stage and he came to the meeting with a chain metal belt and spiked hair. They took a few more meetings out of politeness, but they knew they had their Donny. Now, Gyllenhaal was a newcomer, but he wasn't a no name. He had proven just the year prior that he could carry a drama with an excellent film, in my opinion, 1999's October Sky.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Great movie.

• 46:53Chris Winterbauer?

  An underrated period piece by director Joe Johnston. So Gyllenhaal, for his part, says that he loved the script and that he even had to pull over to finish it, to which I say, "Why were you reading the script while you were driving, good sir?"

• 47:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Anyway, he did later say, "This is what my adolescence felt like, although I don't speak and have never spoken to rabbits." Now, Gyllenhaal, of course, came with another bit of brilliance in casting, that is his older sister, Maggie Gyllenhaal. She had mostly done theater and TV movies. She and Jake were going through a competitive phase and it played out perfectly in the on screen dynamic. She met with Richard Kelly. She tried to talk him out of casting her, which of course made him want to cast her in the movie, and she had the part.

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• 48:19Chris Winterbauer?

  So they have a cast in place and Kelly hones the script. He met with each actor to refine their dialogue. They cut 10 pages. It's down to 108. And this is huge because the schedule is tight. And given how inexperienced Richard Kelly is, they need some help. Not only was this an indie film helmed by a first timer, it was a period piece. Something I really didn't realize for the first 20 minutes or so, the first time I watched it. It's set in the recent past. It takes place 12 years earlier, 13 than the year it came out. Something only The Wedding Singer had done in being a movie made in the 90s about the 80s.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Who also drew Barrymore.

• 48:56Chris Winterbauer?

  It had sci fi elements and of course Kelly was going to learn why sometimes adults do know what's best. Now, Adam Fields had just worked on director Jonathan Kaplan's Broke Down Palace, which is like a female driven Thailand based riff on Midnight Express. I only mention it because if you've enjoyed The White Lotus, this is kind of like the darker, gringier version of that.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:16Chris Winterbauer?

  He pulled crew, including veteran costume designer April Ferry, who of course has just done an incredible number of films from U571 to Flubber, Maverick, Free Willy, Child's Play, many more. Cinematographer Newton Thomas Siegel, who's perhaps best known for his collaborations with another USC grad, Brian Singer, starting with the usual suspects. Now, Brian Singer's X-Men reboot, more on that another day, pulled Siegel away from the project. And it's important to note the DP director relationship is probably the most significant of a crew member's relationship to the director on a film. So some of Kelly's desires for the film's look were already being questioned by the line producer. For example, Kelly insisted on shooting anamorphic.

• 50:00Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, if you guys are unfamiliar with the term, anamorphic refers to a lens type that squeezes the light that's captured onto a frame of film, allowing a wider field of view to be captured than just your standard 16 by nine, three by two. It has to then be projected back through an anamorphic lens to de-squeeze it or stretch it across a widescreen surface. So it's used to create widescreen images on a non widescreen format. Of course, flat lenses, spherical lenses were much more popular in the 90s and early 2000s. And anamorphic is expensive, it's heavy, it requires more light, they're not as sharp. This is an interesting choice for a first time director, basically. These are more difficult to manage. And his only reason he could give is that he didn't want this to be the one movie in his career.

• 50:45Chris Winterbauer?

  He didn't shoot Anamorphic. So the producers hoped an experienced DP would start to talk Kelly out of some of these ideas, basically. And cinematographer Stephen Poster was experienced. Poster had shot additional photography on Close Encounters of the Third Kind and Blade Runner. He'd helmed dozens of feature films. And it was actually Thomas Newton Siegel who had recommended him to the production. After a brief dalliance with a music video DP deemed too green by the producers, Kelly and McKittrick turned to Poster, but they wondered again, would this guy want to do our weird little movie? But Stephen Poster takes the meeting. Kelly and McKittrick invite him over to the place that Kelly's renting in Venice, which Stephen Poster described as looking like a dorm room.

• 51:29Chris Winterbauer?

  And they sit down and Kelly just stands up and starts pacing nervously. Now unbeknownst to Kelly, Stephen Poster was actually looking for something fresh and weird and new. He'd taken a bit of a hiatus from American films, shot a movie in France. He's looking to get back into features, but he was tired of working the way that he'd been doing it before. And he wanted to do a project from an intuitive place. He wanted to prioritize the feel of things over technical considerations. And he loved the script. So finally, he's tired of Kelly's moving about and Poster tells him, Richard, before we get started, let's calm down and think about this. At this point, there's no difference in our age. There was, Poster was 20 years older than him. No difference in anything. There was, he'd shot dozens of movies Kelly never had. And I am here to be your director of photography. You are the director.

• 52:14Chris Winterbauer?

  All of my experience is on the line for you. And Kelly relaxed and what he didn't realize was that I wanted to be his age. Kelly was 25, Poster was 54. Now David and I had the opportunity to speak with Stephen Poster and we're going to be posting our interview with him independent of this episode and playing a couple of clips from it. And what you really can sense is that Poster loved this script. He believed in it and he believed in Kelly's vision for the movie. And all he wanted was to help him realize that vision in a way that could help him avoid the pitfalls that perhaps he'd seen other directors fall into throughout his career. So Poster's got one condition. He wants four days of Kelly's time.

• 52:58Chris Winterbauer?

  Four days where the two of them can sit down and map out the entire look of the film. They agree and Kelly signs on one of his most unexpected champions. So the first test of this loyalty, Poster 100% backs up Kelly's desire to shoot anamorphic. Let's hear Steven Poster explain how he defended Richard Kelly's decision with a little bit of BS that Donnie Darko himself would have been proud of.

• 53:21Speaker 06

  Richard wanted to shoot anamorphic widescreen with anamorphic lenses. And I thought that was a great idea. I thought stylistically it would really work. The producer, the executive producer called me up and said, "You gotta tell him he can't use anamorphic lenses, that they're much more expensive and it takes a lot more light. Tell him you can't do it." I said, "Well, wait a minute. Hang on a sec. Kodak has a new film stock that is almost twice as fast as anything that they've ever had. If we use that film stock, that would eat up the light deficit.

• 54:02Speaker 06

  Furthermore, we're in a practical location and with anamorphic, I won't see the ceilings and we can light from there. That will save me a lot of time on the setups and so it will save us money." And he said, "Okay, all right. First of all, I mean, that was total bullshit about the lenses. I had never seen this film stock before. I'd never exposed any of it before. That film stock worked out great for me. It was the only film ever shot entirely on that film stock. It's very tricky if you don't know how to shoot high-speed films.

• 54:44Speaker 06

  It can get very grainy. It can get very contrasty, but it was right up my alley, so I was okay with it. But total bullshit."

• 54:56Chris Winterbauer?

  As we mentioned at the top of the episode, we had the honor of interviewing both Steven Poster, the cinematographer of Donnie Darko, and Dave Kamites, the Steadicam and camera operator for the movie. We are going to post those interviews at the end of this week for you guys to listen to on our main feed. So if you want even more stories from the set, as well as Mr. Poster's incredible career up until Donnie Darko, please check those out. All right. Back to our story. It wasn't just Steven Poster, who was really starting to believe in Donnie Darko and Richard Kelly. Kelly had solicited designs for Frank's rabbit suit from others involved in the project, but he's stuck by his original weirdo drawing, which of course is what you see in the film. Most of the drawings that you see on Donnie's walls

• 55:41Chris Winterbauer?

  are Richard Kelly's drawings. No one knew what to make of it. They were like, what the fuck is this rabbit thing? Until the mask maker sent in the version based on Kelly's drawings. They threw it on top of April Ferry's oversized suit and gloves, and all of a sudden you had this terrifyingly compelling image of teen mental illness. And people started to realize, maybe there was a method to Kelly's madness.

• 56:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I can totally understand how anyone who might be skeptical of Kelly at this point would be really reassured by seeing that he's able to express himself creatively by other means beyond just the script, that he's actually a really skilled artist in other ways. And how, even though the script is wild and unconventional, he just might know exactly what he's making.

• 56:31Chris Winterbauer?

  I agree. And of course, as Steven Poster mentioned in our interview, if you would like to see the original mask and suit, they're on display at the Academy Museum of Arts and Sciences in Los Angeles. I should also mention they brought on production designer Alec Hammond. He would go on to production design dozens of major films and is still very active today, including some really fun work that I liked on the Lost in Space TV reboot. He would create the world of Middlesex in Los Angeles. And I'd also just love to mention property master Mark Anderson and his entire team, who made such wonderful in-world props from the philosophy of time travel to the Weird little placards of fear and love for Jim Cunningham's company. Some really fun stuff in this movie. And that really helped, I think, too, is that Kelly had a sense of humor. The movie's not just serious.

• 57:15Chris Winterbauer?

  And so about a week before principal photography began, they shot the Jim Cunningham motivational video at Patrick Swayze's ranch. So if you guys remember, this is Cunning Visions. The "I'm not afraid anymore. I stared into my ego reflection," just nonsense guru talk.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:34Chris Winterbauer?

  So Patrick Swayze's wife, Lisa Neme, basically acted as a one-woman wardrobe department. She hung up his real clothes from the 80s on racks outside. She's the one who suggested the white Isad and pleated plants that he wears when he walks into frame after the horse neighs. Speaking of costumes, April Ferry suggested that the kids wear school uniforms to save money and illustrate the theme of conformity. Many of the other clothing items came from her garage, and there were even items that she repurposed from other projects, including a costume Glenn Close had worn in The Big Chill for Mary MacDonald.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 58:08Chris Winterbauer?

  So Kelly and Sam Bower, his editor, cut together the motivational video, and they showed it to the production team at a party at Drew Barrymore's house right before shooting started. And it really got people excited for the movie. They were like, oh, this is gonna be good. This is funny. We're not as nervous about working with this first-time director. It's July of 2000, and principal photography is upon them. And McHidrick says, "Production is just crazy. Just constant work, 20-hour days." So the first shot of the movie is also the first shot of principal photography. Donnie waking up on the road next to his bike. Obviously, this is out in the Angeles National Forest, on, I believe, the 2 highway or off of it. Apparently, the footage was too shaky. Not exactly the way you want to start off your movie,

• 58:53Chris Winterbauer?

  but Steven Postor assured Kamites and Kelly that they could reshoot it with insurance money. And the camera wasn't the only thing with some jitters. As McHidrick later said, "Richard will probably murder me for saying this, but the first shot in the forest where Donnie's riding his bike, Richard goes, 'Action.'" We shoot it, and everybody looks to him for cut, and he goes... And action.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 59:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, despite this, it seems like everybody really did have a lot of faith in Kelly, and it seemed like they had convinced people that they knew the movie through and through before they even got to set. But they weren't the only first timers on the set. On her first or second day of shooting, Jolene Purdy, who, as I mentioned, plays Trisha Chen, and this was her first film, remembers almost quitting. Quote, "Second day on set was where he comes up and holds my face and is talking to me. And I remember looking at the script and being like, I don't think I can do this. Up until that point, I had never even been kissed. And so I just kept telling my mom, I can't do this. I give up. I'm done." And she was like, "Sure, you can be done, but you've signed a contract, so you're going

• 59:57Chris Winterbauer?

  to have to give in and do this one." And of course, she finished the film, and I think Jolene Purdy's performance is fantastic in this movie. And I actually think that Trisha Chen has a very beautiful arc in the face of some pretty ugly, very casual racism, as it's presented in the film.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  I agree that her arc is really beautiful, in that that dance scene at the talent show is one of the really memorable scenes from the film. I also think that her role as a character is a really critical one. That's where it really occurs to you that, okay, this guy's got a bigger heart than his douchebag friends.

• 1:00:31Chris Winterbauer?

  Sure. A couple of things that made this a challenging shoot that are very normal. They are, of course, shooting it out of order. It's very rare that you can shoot something linearly, which was very difficult because of the emotional trajectory of Donnie's character. And of course, Jalen Hall is this 19-year-old actor. And so apparently, he wasn't a smoker, but he smoked in between takes to calm his nerves. So like, he's taking, it's a fucking cigarette, you know, he's actually doing that. He does remember coming up with Donnie Darko's voice and mannerisms when speaking to Frank, as making it a choice of kind of becoming a child speaking to his security blanket. So when he kind of dips his chin down, and he looks for it, and he's talking like this, it's very much like a little kid

• 1:01:15Chris Winterbauer?

  almost sleepwalking at that point. You can see that he, you know, he falls back in age about 10 years, and that was a very conscious choice.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Right. Oh, that's cool. That makes sense.

• 1:01:24Chris Winterbauer?

  So the schedule's starting to present some problems, like needing to shoot out Drew Barrymore scenes. Now, a lot of her scenes are very simple, relatively speaking, you know, dialogue in the classroom, cutaways of her watching the talent show, but she's an integral part of one of the most complicated sequences in the film. Donnie and his friends arriving at school for the first time. This section is set to head over heels by Tears for Fears.

• 1:01:49Chris Winterbauer?

  You guys know it. The sequence wordlessly introduces Gretchen, Kitty Farmer, the teachers, the principal, the bullies, sparkle motion. This is a very risky sequence because it's a music video with no dialogue set to a song that they didn't own the rights to yet.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's risky.

• 1:02:08Chris Winterbauer?

  There's also the wrinkle that Richard Kelly insisted that the entire sequence be one shot. So colloquially, a oner, an uninterrupted long tape with long take with complicated camera movements, has been a dream of directors. You can go all the way back to something like Hitchcock's Rope, Orson Welles, Robert Altman, Scorsese's Goodfellas and the Copacet, Birdman, 1917. These shots are technically virtuosic. Sometimes, I would argue, you struggle to justify their narrative necessity. They can be a show-off shot, you know?

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and wonders are having a heyday right now. There was an episode of Monsters, the Menendez Story, which I think kind of kicked it off, as far as I'm aware. And then the second episode of The Studio with Seth Rogen, was called the oner and is a oner. And then the entire show, Adolescence, which was recently very popular. Each episode is a oner.

• 1:03:01Chris Winterbauer?

  Absolutely. And there are of course instances where it makes sense. Now, the production team was worried that the shot wasn't financially feasible. They could blow their schedule trying to make it happen, right? With a oner, especially before the advent of digital editing and kind of more streamlined VFX work with painting things out, it can be very hard to get all of the elements to work on a single take without being able to cut. So they turned to the cinematographer, Stephen Poster, to say, hey, tell the director this is stupid. But Poster is a savvy vet and he knows how to communicate with his director. So he takes a different approach to segmenting the shot. Let's listen to Poster describe how he got Richard Kelly to realize that perhaps breaking the shot up would be for the best.

• 1:03:43Speaker 06

  He wanted to do from the bus into the school, around the back and back into the school, all in one shot, a one-er. And I knew that we didn't have the resources to do that. But the producer, again, challenged me, said, "You've got to tell him no." My job as a DP is not to tell the director no, it's to tell him how or why. So I said to the producer, "All right, let's have a rehearsal at the school on a Saturday. Let's bring the camera operator, David, and let's go in, let Richard and I work it out." So we got there and it was Loyola School, east of Hollywood.

• 1:04:28Speaker 06

  And I was sitting there waiting outside, sort of leaning up against my car. Richard got there and said, "Okay, let's go in." And I said, "No, Richard, do me a favor. You go in with Dave and start working out the shot and I'll come in in a little while." I said, "But..." And as I did that, I handed him a stopwatch. 20 minutes later, he came out and said, "Okay, five shots."

• 1:04:58Chris Winterbauer?

  Now Poster had succeeded in breaking the shot up, but it was still incredibly difficult. And let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Here is again, camera operator Dave Kamites, talking about the insane difficulty of whip panning while ramping the speed of the film from fast to slow and back again as he moved through the school hallway.

• 1:05:19Speaker 07

  The way that that works, we're shooting film. So nowadays, you would shoot it on digital, right? And then you would just shoot a pass on digital, you'd do all the moves and whatever. And then they'd take it into post and they would like perfectly go, "Okay, we want to ramp at this point, we want to ramp at this point." But back then with film... You were actually physically ramping. It was, and for anybody who doesn't know, when we say ramping, you're going from 24 frames per second, which is, which is normal speed, to, I think it went to 48 frames per second, which is, which is, you know, twice as slow, because there's more film going through and it plays back at 24 frames per second. So Norman, my assistant, and to this day, I don't know how someone does this, but he's pulling focus with one hand. And then in his other hand, he has a box with a little button,

• 1:06:04Speaker 07

  and it has a huge cable going to the Steadicam, which has its own problems, because I'm not only trying to do moves, but I'm trying to do whips, and the Steadicam doesn't want to be encumbered by something. It has to be perfectly balanced, and I'm completely encumbered by something. So that was its own thing. So it takes a split second for the speed to change, because when he pushes that button, two things are happening. One is the speed is changing from 24 to 48, or at times from 48 back to 24. But because it's going faster and or slower, depending on which way you're going, the light needs to change coming into the lens, the amount of light coming into the lens. So it's actually connected to a motor back then, that, that literally changed the aperture at the same speed that the film speed is changing.

• 1:06:46Speaker 07

  And it's really quite incredible, because you don't see any effect other than the slow motion. So that was how they came up with it. What's happening is, as I'm about to whip, I would go ramp, and Norman would hit the button, and then I would do the next part, and I would go ramp. But he also has to physically be very close, and, and I'm turning my body usually 180 degrees or something like that. And he would have to stay physically close to me, because otherwise the cable would pull me. And he's pulling focus, and he's ramping, and everything. And, you know, you do it a bunch, but the reality is you don't know if it worked, because I'm saying ramp it exactly the moment that I want it to happen, which may be right or maybe not, because I'm thinking about 12 other things. He's hopefully hitting it at the same point, but invariably, there's some flex in there.

• 1:07:29Speaker 07

  So the thing about it was, you didn't know until the next day when Daly showed up, whether it worked or not. And I would also point out, as you pointed out so well, there's no music with it, which I'm sure when we saw it, we were probably like, "Mm." But then suddenly you put the music on it, and it's like, "Oh, this is kind of brilliant."

• 1:07:47Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, obviously, they pulled off those shots. Production was rounding out its 28-day schedule with its two biggest special effects shots yet to be shot, beginning with the jet engine killing Donnie.

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• 1:09:13Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, Steven Poster later said, "People told Richard, 'You can't have an engine fall off a plane. It just doesn't happen.'" And in the middle of production, an airplane engine falls off the plane in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. And obviously, in recent months, we've seen at least an influx of news stories about planes just seemingly falling out of the sky, so it continues to remain part of our world. Now, the jet engine scene was part of the last day of shooting. Production designer Alec Hammond built a bedroom set. Robbie Knott, special effects coordinator, brought in the engine, which had to be stripped of its guts to make it lighter the night before. And, as was confirmed by Steven Poster, Dave Kamites, and various other sources, they could not fit the damn jet engine into the soundstage. When it was up on the crane...

• 1:09:57Chris Winterbauer?

  It was just a little too tall to get inside. So everything had to shut down and they couldn't shoot anything. So they actually went and got a shot of a plane landing behind a motel. And that's an interstitial shot that you see before you cut to Donnie and his family at the motel the night after the plane crashes. So a little bit of fortuitous bad luck in this instance. Now, they did eventually, of course, they were able to roll the thing into the soundstage. They lifted over the bedroom set. They run multiple cameras because they're only going to be able to do this once. They shoot the scene. They in fact, actually apparently shot additional footage of Donnie being impaled, which was not used in the film.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 1:10:40Chris Winterbauer?

  You actually don't even see him in the finished shot at all.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, the very last scene that they shot was around 4am and it was Donnie Darko torching Jim Cunningham's house. Now, this interior was actually Dr. Thurman's therapy office set redressed as the interior of Patrick Swayze's living room, where you of course see the incredible oil painting of him on the wall. They light it. It gets so hot, they pull the camera back. Firefighters come in to extinguish the flames. And on that last day, Jalen Hall approaches Richard Kelly and reveals the inspiration for his performance. Richard Kelly. Jalen Hall had apparently just been doing an impression of the Nevis Young director for the entire production.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:11:23Chris Winterbauer?

  And you can actually see some photos of them on set. They look about the same age. Kelly, Kelly looks so young, unbelievably young. Now, Jalen Hall's part of the process was done, but Kelly and his team were just getting started. Editing Donnie Darko was, like many films, perhaps more difficult than shooting it. As McKittrick said, to cut a very complex script, it's like an old sweater. If you pull one little thread, the whole thing can fall apart. Editorial was very difficult.

• 1:11:51Chris Winterbauer?

  Producer Nancy Javonen supported Sam Bauer as Kelly's choice to edit the film. As we mentioned, Sam Bauer had been with Kelly from the beginning, but the Bond company fought her, which may be why there are two credited editors on this film, Sam Bauer and Eric Strand. I have not been able to figure out Mr. Strand's exact role. I don't know if he was brought in to supervise. I don't know if he came in for additional editing. I don't know if they co-edited. If anybody out there knows, please feel free to share. It was a bit of a blind spot in our research. Now Kelly wasn't alone in post. People were committed to helping him get this movie done. Steven Poster, cinematographer, even carried cans of developed film from the lab to the

• 1:12:33Chris Winterbauer?

  telecine for the intermediate stage before color correction because he was so in love with the movie and he wanted to make sure it was completed properly. And the film had some decently sophisticated VFX moments, too, including the liquid spheres that Kelly admittedly ripped off from James Cameron's The Abyss. You've got that kind of dream shot of the lockers in the nebulous water space before it gets flooded. And then, of course, the jet engine at the end of the film that goes through the portal or wormhole. And that was a shot that Kelly was never really satisfied with. He said he wanted to do a whole big miniature of the plane getting ripped up, going through the interior of the plane, a big Nolan practical shot, and he just couldn't make it work.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's so funny about it, though, is that like, it's, I can see why you would have the desire to do it, but it's so insignificant.

• 1:13:22Chris Winterbauer?

  Exactly.

• 1:13:23Speaker 02

  Because there are so many more important things going on than the special effects shots in this movie.

• 1:13:27Chris Winterbauer?

  I have heard rumors that this wasn't the only thing that Kelly wasn't able to do. There have long been whispers on message boards of the original ending of Donnie Darko, in which the character pays off the assertion earlier in the film that he could be a superhero.

• 1:13:41Speaker 04

  Donnie Darko? What the hell kind of name is that? It's like some sort of superhero or something.

• 1:13:48Speaker 02

  Makes you think I'm nuts.

• 1:13:50Chris Winterbauer?

  I read online that Donnie originally drives his station wagon off the cliff after Gretchen dies, generating enough speed to then enter the portal, flying into the airplane, dislodging the engine from the wing and thereby causing his own death. One crew member that we spoke to could not exactly confirm this ending, but he did remember a version in which Donnie more directly causes the jet engine to decouple and something about him flying. That being said, cinematographer Stephen Poster stated in our interview that they shot the scripted ending and that is more or less what ends up ending the final film. So, the mystery is not yet solved, guys, but if anyone can find the original shooting script, let us know.

• 1:14:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, while getting the film cut to size was a gargantuan task, they had some lucky breaks on music. And this movie has a fantastic score and a fantastic soundtrack. Uh, David, any standouts for you? You're a composer, you're a musician.

• 1:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm the, I think that the Gretchen Ross cue is about as formative, um, piece of music as there is for me in terms of what I find compelling and what kind of informed a lot of the music that I write for piano. I mean, it's just this beautiful little piece and it makes you fall in love when you hear it. So that's the one that stands out, but there's a lot. And the use of synth in this score is so cool and feels so analog and so right for this movie.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  It can be hard to do something sci-fi without sounding sci-fi or be distractingly sci-fi. And I think this movie executes it just right.

• 1:15:32Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, it's good. I'm glad that you mentioned that because that was very intentional. Michael Andrews knew they were going to be using a lot of period-appropriate 1980s music. And so he wanted to integrate some of those synth sounds into his score, even though the score was going to be largely built on piano and vocals. And so I think you nailed it. That's exactly what he was going for. Now, the great thing about licensing songs from the 80s in the early 2000s is that they were in this gray area of licensing. Those songs weren't hip anymore, but they also weren't nostalgic yet. So translation, they were more affordable.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:16:05Chris Winterbauer?

  So with the help of music supervisors, Tom Wolfe and Manish Raval, they were able to snag a lot of the tracks that Kelly had envisioned, but not all of them. And there were some unexpected reasons for that. Now, according to McKittrick, they had a deal with NXS, which stated that they could not pay more for any other song than they paid for their songs, which unexpectedly bit them in the ass when it came to the Sparkle Motion Talent Show performance, which of course is

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Duran Duran.

• 1:16:32Chris Winterbauer?

  Duran Duran's Notorious. The scene works, it's obviously the correct BPM, but it's not what the song was choreographed and shot to.

• 1:16:40Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:16:41Chris Winterbauer?

  Which was West End Girls by Pet Shop Boys. And David, I would love to play this scene for you really quickly with the quote, proper sound to it.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  That's really interesting. It plays way more like you're in the auditorium watching as an audience member and it feels much smaller and it puts a totally different spin on the scene. When you come in so strong with that, no, no, notorious, it just feels epic and huge and you feel like you're watching a music video. You feel like you're part of the music video. And in contrast, the Pet Shop Boys song feels very contained and very diegetic, meaning very in the room and not sensational. Ultimately, it just sounds like, you know, these are, there's some, some middle schoolers dancing.

• 1:17:34Chris Winterbauer?

  Exactly right. So I think notorious weirdly makes them seem better than they are, or at least the filmmakers are trying to communicate that what they're doing is epic, as you mentioned. Whereas with the Pet Shop Boys track, West End Girls, it feels like you're more making fun of them.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. People listening, I would definitely encourage you to check out this alternate version because I think it's a great example of how much of an impact different music makes because my eyes are always drawn to Maggie Gyllenhaal and her reaction when she's watching them. And with notorious, I always think, wow, she's really blown away by them.

• 1:18:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, she thinks they're good.

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Yes. And when I watch this version, I'm like, she's like, kind of laughing at how silly it is.

• 1:18:13Chris Winterbauer?

  Exactly.

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  Also appreciating. It really changes every aspect of the scene.

• 1:18:18Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, it wouldn't be the only song that they can't get that changes the tone of the scene. More on that in a second. Pet Shop Boys wanted $100,000 for the track, which was more than they could afford. And it was more than they'd paid in excess. So they end up going with Duran Duran's Notorious. Now, for the school montage, Drew Barrymore put in a personal request to Tears for Fears for Head Over Heels. And it wouldn't be the last Tears song to grace the soundtrack. Composer Michael Andrews was brought onto the film. He was almost as green as Richard Kelly. He just scored the soon to be short-lived Freaks and Geeks. He was recommended by Nancy Javonin's brother. They asked him to write the heart of the film. They said they wanted the core of the movie to be the love story between Donnie and Gretchen.

• 1:19:00Chris Winterbauer?

  And of course, that's where you get so many of the wonderful piano tracks from Gretchen's kind of ballads to liquid sphere waltz. And there really is a waltzy quality, the doo doo doo doo doo, you know, the one, two, three that's behind the music in this film that gives it, I think, a really wonderfully circular quality that matches, obviously, the circular nature of the movie. So Andrew sat down at the piano in San Diego. He recorded music for three or four scenes. He sends them to editorial. And the way they worked is apparently the editorial team just started splicing these tracks in throughout the movie, wherever they seem to kind of fit.

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:19:34Chris Winterbauer?

  So they started to just temp it with Andrew's rough scratch tracks.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  Composer's dream.

• 1:19:40Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, I think that's why the music feels so organic to the movie. Is because the movie's pacing was in large part built around these cues. And they kind of gave it some breathing room. And I think they do a lot of wonderful work in spacing out some of the scenes that aren't really connected by much in terms of plot. We jump across time and space multiple times, locations without any causal link between two scenes, just the music to get us there. And I think it's really a testament to, you know, Andrews's writing, obviously, but also the editorial team's willingness to just go with that from the beginning.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's such a good score. I completely agree with you. When you have the opportunity to work in that manner, that is opposite of obviously how films normally go, where a composer is scoring to picture, strictly scoring to picture without the ability to manipulate, edit. There is a freedom there that can allow things to flow more naturally.

• 1:20:43Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, David, you mentioned it's an iconic score. And there is one song on the soundtrack that is better known than any other song on this soundtrack. That is, of course, Michael Andrews and Gary Jules' cover of Mad World, originally by Tears for Fears. It plays over the haunting montage of all of the characters touched by Donnie that roughly concludes the film. Now, the song feels completely, completely of a piece with Donnie Darko, as does Donnie Darko with the song. I could not imagine a different track. And yet, Richard Kelly had pushed for MLK by U2 to be the concluding song that plays over that montage.

• 1:21:27Chris Winterbauer?

  If you've not heard the song before, I recommend you go listen to it. It's very beautiful. You can see why he would like it. It's very ethereal. The lyrics, "Sleep, you know, sleep, sleep tonight." May feel appropriate at a surface level until you remember this is an elegy to civil rights leader Martin Luther King Jr. being played over the death of a fictional, emotionally disturbed, upper-middle-class white kid from Virginia with delusions of grandeur. Maybe not the best look to layer this song over that scene.

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, there are a lot of reasons why it feels retrospectively like it wasn't the right choice. Musically speaking, it is fairly arrhythmic and very consonant and smooth and waves washing over you. And I think it feels a little too zen, whereas Mad World has that tension and the dissonance and that angstiness.

• 1:22:28Chris Winterbauer?

  Well, I think you actually, as you mentioned, it's arrhythmic. You need actually the kind of driving piano of Mad World, I think, to propel you through those pans at the end of the film.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  I completely agree.

• 1:22:37Chris Winterbauer?

  Luckily for Richard Kelly, the song was simply too expensive. So, Michael Andrews pitched his own stripped-down piano arrangement of Mad World by Tears for Fears. Which he had been covering with his high school band for a decade. So this is again, the product of a high school mind. Now, if you've never heard the original version of Tears for Fears' Mad World, I recommend you play it now. It is strikingly different, much more rhythmic. Andrew's approach took the haunting lyrics of the original, reset them inside an equally haunting piano arrangement lent life by his friend and former bandmate, singer songwriter Gary Jewels. They recorded the song in 15 minutes and then they pitched it to Jovonin and she was

• 1:23:22Chris Winterbauer?

  sold. In fact, they say that she started crying when she watched a scene to it. Now, unfortunately, Richard Kelly's run of good luck was coming to an end.

• 1:23:43Chris Winterbauer?

  He had landed Jason Schwartzman against all odds, Drew Barrymore, he'd lost Schwartzman, but then gained two Gyllenhaals, Steven Poster, so many supporters, a great soundtrack and score. And it seems like he had just snagged the best possible premiere for his film. The lineup for the 2001 Sundance Film Festival is announced and Donnie Darko is given the premiere slot and the top heat rating by the Hollywood trades. This is the movie that everyone wants to see. And according to many involved in the film, this put a bullseye on their backs. As producer Adam Fields later said, "Donnie Darko got accepted at Sundance as the opening

• 1:24:27Chris Winterbauer?

  premiere movie, which I thought was actually a terrible mistake for us to accept. Back then, you never wanted to go first unless you were so darn sure about your film. So I was very familiar about how things tended to work there. But when they're being offered the world premiere as the opening film of the festival, it's hard to turn that down." The team accepts and the movie premieres in Park City, Utah on January 19th, 2001. Two mixed reactions. Now. The movie was very divisive. According to many there, half of the audience seemed to love it and the other half seemed to hate it. For precisely the same reasons. One half said, "I don't know what the hell this is about," and the narrative's really confusing.

• 1:25:11Chris Winterbauer?

  And the other half said, "I don't know what the hell this is about, and the narrative's really confusing."

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, the narrative had shifted around the film as well. It used to be considered this indie film that could, right? This was the movie that could never get made, and then they made it for only four and a half million. But it actually looked too good. Nobody believed that they'd only made it for four and a half million dollars. Maybe it was because they saw Drew Barrymore's name associated with it, and she was obviously associated with very big films at this point in time. Maybe it's because of what they'd achieved on screen. Regardless, the association was hard to shake. This was not viewed as a Sundance film. It was viewed as a Hollywood film trying to infiltrate Sundance. It was the wolf in sheep's

• 1:25:59Chris Winterbauer?

  clothing all of a sudden. Now, when it came to sell the film, everyone passed. Now, there were some foreseeable reasons, like the movie was simply too long. According to producer Adam Fields, the cut that screened at Sundance was 20 minutes longer than the theatrical release. But that shouldn't necessarily prevent a film from being sold. Many films are bought at festivals, and then the distributor works with the filmmaker to cut them down into a more appropriate runtime for the release. But there were other issues, like Columbine. In April of 1999, so roughly two years before this, at Columbine High School in Columbine,

• 1:26:39Chris Winterbauer?

  Colorado, two high school students murdered 12 of their classmates and a teacher in what was, for at least a decade or so, the most infamous school shooting in American history. And of course, this film ends with Donnie Darko murdering Frank after the death of Gretchen with his father's handgun. As Richard Kelly later said, people were not comfortable with any movie that showed a teenager holding or firing a gun. They thought the movie was potentially going to promote suicide or something. There were a lot of people who backed out of the room completely after they screened the movie and were like, we don't want anything to do with this.

• 1:27:17Speaker 02

  It's not hard to understand why general audiences would grapple with that. I mean, he is, like you said, a teenage boy who commits gun violence at the end, who's also a vigilante throughout the movie, who is rebellious against authority.

• 1:27:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Spends his time shooting, you know, a 22 or an air rifle out in the field, you know?

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:40Chris Winterbauer?

  He's openly talks about how he's disturbed, he's antisocial.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:46Chris Winterbauer?

  So.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that coupled with stigmas with mental health issues, which I think.

• 1:27:50Chris Winterbauer?

  This was not, this still was not a time where we were talking super openly about, you know, mental health problems.

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. One of the commendable things this film does, I think, is shine a light on it and create this very lovable, endearing character despite the fact that he struggles so much. But on surface level, it's easy to see how audiences would have a hard time wrapping their head around it.

• 1:28:12Chris Winterbauer?

  I think what the movie does really well is that it shows that even though he's dysfunctional, the family's actually very functional.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:18Chris Winterbauer?

  And he has wonderful parents, and I actually love the way that their relationship is portrayed. They're, they love each other, they're a team, right? You know, there's no unnecessary conflict there that needs to be written in. It all feels very natural.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, even between him and his siblings, there is that natural abrasiveness that siblings have, but there is that undertone of love in each of them caring about each other.

• 1:28:40Chris Winterbauer?

  I agree. Now, there was also just some random weird, bad luck. Sean McKittrick says that Harvey Weinstein showed up to the Sundance screening wearing a Donnie Darko crew hat. Nobody knows where he got it from. And so a lot of distributors left the screening early because they assumed that he had already purchased the movie when he hadn't. Now, according to Adam Fields, they did receive an offer from HBO for an HBO release, this would be non-theatrical, for roughly $1 million, which would have been a big loss for the financier.

• 1:29:11Chris Winterbauer?

  Months pass, there's no buyer, the songs haven't been paid for, they're going to lose the music, and potential distributors are suggesting possibly the dumbest idea you're likely to hear today, which is to slash the movie by 30 minutes, cut the gun scene, and reframe it as a horror film in which Frank the Rabbit kills kids. And they said, "Call him Stabby Frank."

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Oh my god.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  That, I can't even, my reaction to that is, is extreme, and I can't even imagine what Richard Kelly must have felt.

• 1:29:46Chris Winterbauer?

  Basically turning it into Five Nights at Freddy's, so maybe it would have made a billion dollars, who knows?

• 1:29:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Chris Winterbauer?

  Now, Sam Bauer, the editor, did end up trimming 20 minutes to the film with Richard Kelly, not to turn it into Stabby Frank, but to get it to the hour and 53 minutes that the film finally is, when you finally see it. And, as always, Kelly's savior came from an unexpected place: his competition. In early 2001, Hollywood was abuzz about the debut, the American debut, of a young wundikin that had bucked narrative rules to tell a nonlinear story. And no, I'm not talking about Richard Kelly and Donnie Darko, I'm talking about Christopher Nolan and Memento. Aaron Ryder, who worked at Newmarket Films, the company behind Memento, received a call, it's unclear from who, saying, "Hey, why don't you guys try to release this film as well?"

• 1:30:35Chris Winterbauer?

  Ryder set up a buyer's screening and invited Christopher Nolan and his wife, Emma Thomas, to come see Donnie Darko. As Ryder later said, "It was a great screening, because while the movie was, let's call it flawed, there was also something so unbelievably captivating about it." Thing is a fantastic description. But it was Nolan who provided the linchpin of Newmarket's eventual relationship with Kelly, because he's the one who told execs that they should distribute the film, and he did start to carry some clout at this time. Memento had grossed nearly four times its $9 million budget after being released in early 2001. Further, Memento had a similar journey to Donnie Darko.

• 1:31:14Chris Winterbauer?

  Premiered at Venice, despite winning the Screenwriting Award at Sundance, the very Sundance that Donnie Darko had appeared at, it also hadn't sold. It was viewed as too cerebral, so Newmarket decided to distribute the film themselves, and they'd been rewarded handsomely for it, so why not do the same with Donnie Darko? This wasn't Christopher Nolan's only contribution to the final film. He and Emma Thomas suggested to Richard Kelly that he should add the countdowns under the title cards to keep the audience in the loop on how much time remained until the end of the world. So when you see 20 days left and eventually one day left, thank you, Christopher Nolan. Now, there were some minor reshoots.

• 1:31:58Chris Winterbauer?

  They spent the summer of 2001 cleaning up the movie. They added James Duval, Frank, to the ending montage. He was not originally part of the ending montage. That was Aaron Ryder's suggestion over at Newmarket. Great idea, Aaron. However, Newmarket was initially angling for a straight to DVD release. And again, it was Drew Barrymore who came in and strong-armed them into a theatrical window. So Drew Barrymore, just saving Donnie Darko left and right.

• 1:32:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, geez.

• 1:32:26Chris Winterbauer?

  So they agree October of 2001 would be the perfect time to drop this film. And then, for the last time, disaster struck. Apparently, a plane has just crashed into the World Trade Center here in New York City. At 8:46 a.m., American Airlines Flight 11 crashes into one World Trade Center, instantly killing hundreds and trapping hundreds more above the 91st floor. Donnie Darko's trailer featured a jet engine falling out of the sky. The film was dead on arrival. It opened on October 16th, 2001, just over a month after the September 11 terrorist

• 1:33:07Chris Winterbauer?

  attacks, just a month after America developed a new fear of flying. And it bombed. As Ryder later said, "It was wildly disappointing. I felt like, wow, we have something here, and I feel like there's an audience for it." But that audience didn't show up. The film grossed $110,000 in its opening weekend and just under $600,000 in its theatrical run.

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:33:32Chris Winterbauer?

  It wasn't just audiences. I know you can go on Rotten Tomatoes now and you'll see 90% or whatever, but the initial critical reactions were very mixed. The New York Times basically said that Kelly was in over his head, that he didn't pull it off, but they did celebrate Jake Gyllenhaal's acting. And they ended with the quote, "The actor's loyalty to the director's vision is evident. The director just hasn't figured out what that vision is yet." Variety was somewhat more positive, saying, "Donnie Darko has plenty of problems, but most stem from a young filmmaker over swinging on his first time up to the plate, and hitting a deep flyout rather than a homerun." Kelly went to see the film at the Sunset 5, and then headed to a bar to console himself. His collaborators tried to reassure him, "You know what, Richard?

• 1:34:16Chris Winterbauer?

  Even if it's not gonna make any money, you got it in theaters. Be proud of what you did." And then the bartender piped up. He had no idea who they were, but he'd just seen this movie that blew his mind. "You guys have got to see this movie, Donnie Darko. It's the most fucking incredible movie I've seen in years."

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 1:34:31Chris Winterbauer?

  And that's the moment when Richard Kelly realized, maybe, despite the failure, because it was, it was deemed an absolute failure, maybe it's going to hold on. And the thing that Kelly had avoided, a DVD release, became the thing that saved Donnie Darko in the end. So in March of 2002, Donnie Darko came out on home video, and David, it's likely that this is when one of your sisters picked it up, looked at its weird cover, and thought, "Maybe I should watch this." Because a strange thing happened. All of those teenagers who didn't go to see the movie in the theaters, they rented it from Blockbuster and Hollywood Video. They started passing it around like a mixtape or a mysterious artifact. Now, Kelly hated the DVD art.

• 1:35:15Chris Winterbauer?

  It took the collage that they'd made of Frank's rabbit mask, shrunk it down, and then added more faces of the same actors around it. So if you look close, like, you see everybody's face twice, and it doesn't really make sense. But it worked. It was intriguing. I remember looking at it and thinking, "What the hell is this thing?"

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Chris Winterbauer?

  The film also came out in the United Kingdom in October of 2002, and had a much better time finding an audience there, and "Mad World" became an international hit, slowly climbing the charts.

• 1:35:44Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:35:45Chris Winterbauer?

  Gary Jewels remembers, he was driving on Melrose East of La Brea, and all of a sudden, "My cellphone rang, and it was Tears for Fears co-founder Roland Orzabal, and I about shit my pants. I had to pull over." He basically said, "I like your version better than ours, and it gets closer to the soul of the song than the recording we finally had." You just sort of feel like your life's going on, and then all of a sudden, it's like, "What the fuck was happening?" Donnie Darko began popping up at festival screenings and through reissues earned more than its budget back at the box office. That's not even talking about the DVD sales, which were big. Of course, this all led to the fateful release of the director's cut of Donnie Darko. This expanded version of the film premiered at the 2004 Seattle International

• 1:36:30Chris Winterbauer?

  Film Festival. It features an additional 20 minutes of footage, an altered soundtrack, and excerpts of Roberta Sparrow's "The Philosophy of Time Travel." I wrote about this extensively on our Patreon. You can go read the post for free. It also sought to answer all of the fun questions that drew audiences into the film in the first place. My advice is to stick with the theatrical. Now, Donnie Darko has obviously secured a place in film history. It is truly the little indie film that could, and I think will continue to be passed down amongst high school students for quite some time. Obviously, a number of the actors went on to very impressive things. Both Jalen Hall's exploded into the

• 1:37:14Chris Winterbauer?

  Hollywood stratosphere, along with Seth Rogen, who's now the head of a studio on Apple's The Studio, which I've really been enjoying. Obviously, production designer Alec Hammond, costume designer April Ferry, Steven Poster, Sean McHittrick. They've all gone on to do a lot of really wonderful things. But it seems like Richard Kelly, kind of like Donnie, stuck in the loop of the movie, didn't ever really escape being famous for, well, Donnie Darko. His sophomore feature, "Southland Tales," which we've covered on this podcast, was, you know, a pretty poorly received but extremely ambitious look at a politically-charged

• 1:37:55Chris Winterbauer?

  sci-fi near future. I think it's aged really well in terms of its vision of that future. I would recommend watching it. Listen to our episode. And his third film, an adaptation of the Richard Matheson short story "Button Button," called "The Box," was a commercial disappointment. And Richard Kelly hasn't directed a film since. I have heard he gets a lot of screenwriting work by way of rewrites and polishes. Would not surprise me. And we spoke with one Darko crew member who said that Kelly had more unbelievably good movies in him than the vast majority of movie directors. It just happened to be only one unbelievably good movie, or maybe the better way to say that is so far.

• 1:38:39Chris Winterbauer?

  Uh, now I read this quote that I want to share from Kevin Smith. In 2016, he said of Richard Kelly, "He is insanely creative and is not unlike Christopher Nolan." But Nolan wound up in the Warner Brothers system where he got special handling and he got a lot of money to make huge art films like Inception. Richard can be one of our greatest filmmakers. He is right now, but just a lot of people don't realize it. He's still a kid and somebody needs to Nolan that kid. And I, I think a lot of people that have worked with Richard Kelly would probably agree. I mean, I certainly would think that Steven Postor, based on our conversation, would agree with that assessment. But for me, Nolan and Kelly couldn't be more different.

• 1:39:22Chris Winterbauer?

  I think of Christopher Nolan as a watchmaker, right? Every movement is precise and calibrated and physics-based and I think Richard Kelly, even though he dabbles in science fiction, is at his best like an alchemist. He takes things that have no business next to one another, you know? Jet engines, teen mental health, six-foot bunnies, therapy, family angst, sibling rivalry. He shoves it all together and it just works. And I don't think it works because of the science fiction. I'd argue it actually works in spite of the time travel and wormholes and destiny. To me, it works because it feels very honest.

• 1:40:02Chris Winterbauer?

  It feels very true because I think it was based on his childhood because Jake Gyllenhaal was impersonating him. Because like Donnie, who, you know, despite Francis Ford Coppola's assertion that the movie's about kids figuring it out themselves, Donnie listens to some of the adults around him at really important moments and they're smart and they care, just like the people around Richard Kelly, like Steven Postor and Nancy Javonen and Drew Barrymore and April Ferry. And so I guess what I'm getting at is, to me, this movie is such a perfect encapsulation. Of what happens when a movie works the way it's supposed to work, or at least one of the ways it's supposed to work, which is you have somebody that has

• 1:40:46Chris Winterbauer?

  a really unique idea of something in their mind. And everybody else around them uses all of their incredible expertise and knowledge of story and how to express story through their specific departments to extract that idea with that person and put it on a movie screen for the rest of us. And so, you know, I turn it to you now, David, with the what went right of Donnie Darko. What for you went right, having heard this story, knowing that so many things had to go right for this movie to even exist?

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  I think that what went right for me is the understated roles of big actors. I think that seeing Drew Barrymore play an ancillary character, I think she plays it so well. I think that she's really fun to watch. I think that her sort of flirtatious manner with the students is something that it would have been hard to find with any other actress. And that's to say nothing of her role in producing the movie and actually getting it made in the first place, which is remarkable. I think that Patrick Swayze, who, as I was editing the Dirty Dancing episode today, you

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  referred to as the perfect fantasy figure, plays that in other movies in various ways, whether he is the impossible guy to get, or, you know, this, this, uh, action hero. But in this, he plays this very familiar, very flawed character, again, in a very understated way that I think makes me appreciate him as an actor way more than I do when I see him playing some of these more extreme roles. And the same goes for Donnie's mom, for the, for his therapist, for Noah Wiley. I mean, not that he's a huge star, although he's becoming big in the pit. And also on the pit, as an aside, I found it very interesting that there's a character

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  in the show The Pit who is suspected of being a danger to his peers. I won't say more because I don't want to spoil anything, but he is sporting a variation on the iconic skeleton T-shirt that Donnie wears for the back half of the movie. And I don't think that is a fluke. I think it's a testament to the staying power of Donnie Darko and the efficacy of this movie in capturing the spirit of the misunderstood teen in such a compelling way that it became a trope. What about you, Chris? What went right?

• 1:43:21Chris Winterbauer?

  I will say fantastic work, Richard Kelly, an exceptionally directed film. Fantastic work, Steven Posther, it's an amazing looking film. April Ferry, Alec Hammond. There are so many people you could give it to. I agree. I would like to give my what went right to four actresses in the film. So I think one thing that's really interesting about this movie is that the key relationships that influenced Donnie outside of Frank are four women in his life. One, Mary McDonald, his mom. Two, Catherine Ross, his therapist. Three, Jenna Malone, his love interest. And four, Maggie Gyllenhaal, his sister.

• 1:44:06Chris Winterbauer?

  Those are the four key relationships that influenced him across the film. He obviously has interactions with Professor Monitoff and with his father, et cetera. And then you could say Grandma Death as well. I think those characters, if you were to just look at them on the page, are extremely thinly written. This is very much a movie written from Donnie's perspective. It's a fairly male oriented movie to begin with. Good Lord, do those actresses lend a lot of depth, gravitas and personality to what could have simply been

• 1:44:40Chris Winterbauer?

  five or six moments each on screen. And like you said, I guess I'll just riff off of your, you know, character actor of the year, you know, sort of award. I think it's an example of the power of a talented performer to take what is there and imbue it with life beyond what's on the page. So I just want to give it out to those four who are all, you know, overqualified, I would say, for those roles. As you said, you know, your focus was more on Drew Barrymore. It's a great example of doing very, very, very much with very little.

• 1:45:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And also Michael Andrews, because

• 1:45:24Chris Winterbauer?

  Yeah, the music's fantastic.

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  He, I mean, yeah, I can't overstate how much that score influenced the music that I love and the music that I strive to write.

• 1:45:37Chris Winterbauer?

  Guys, thank you for sticking around for our coverage of Donnie Darko. It will not be the last Richard Kelly film we cover. That will be The Box. If you'd like to learn more about Mr. Kelly and his sophomore feature, South on Tales, listen to our coverage of that film. It's very early in our catalog, so excuse any hiccups there as we're still kind of figuring out our format. Now, if you're enjoying this podcast, there are four easy ways to support it. Number one, tell a friend, family member, scream it at a stranger on the street. We endorse all of the above. Number two, subscribe on whatever pod catching medium that you are engaging with us through. That could be Spotify, Apple, whatever it is, Amazon Music.

• 1:46:21Chris Winterbauer?

  Number three, leave us a rating and review. Those do help. We climb the charts when you guys engage with us more and we really appreciate it. And of course, number four, if you're looking for a higher level of engagement, you can head to our Patreon. That's www.patreon.com/whatwentwrongpodcast. There, you can pay a dollar to vote on films that we cover, $5 to get an ad-free RSS feed, if you'd like to listen to this podcast with no ads, or $50 for a shout out, like the ones I'm about to give. But I'd also like to mention, you can join for free. And we post a lot of stuff on there just publicly, including various essays and musings that cannot fit in these

• 1:47:01Chris Winterbauer?

  episodes. If you have any interest in reading them, feel free to head to www.patreon.com/whatwentwrongpodcast. But for our full stop supporters, it's time for me to call out all our friends.

• 1:47:21Chris Winterbauer?

  Cameron Smith. Wake up.

• 1:47:25Chris Winterbauer?

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  Adam Mofat. Film it yourself. You should already know that. Chris Zaka. Kate Ellington. MXodia.

• 1:47:58Chris Winterbauer?

  C Grace B. Jen Mastra Moreno. Christopher Elner. Blaze Ambrose. Jerome Wilkinson. Have you ever seen a portal? Lauren F. Lance Stater. Nate the Knife. Lena. Half Gray, Half. Willa Dunn.

• 1:48:24Chris Winterbauer?

  Brittany Morris Darren and Dale Conkling Ashley Renee Richard Sanchez Jake Killen Andrew McFagelbagel Matthew Jacobson Grace Potter I'm so sorry Ellen Singleton JJ Rapido Jewishri Samant Sadie Just Sadie Do you believe in time travel? Brian Donahue Adrian Pang Korea Chris Liel Kathleen Olson There's something I want to show you Brooke

• 1:49:08Chris Winterbauer?

  Steve Winterbauer Like my father And his father before him Don Schibell George Kay Rosemary Southward Tom Kristin Jason Frankel Don't worry You got away with it Somon Chinani Michael McGrath Lon Relad Lydia Howes I can do anything I want And so can you Next up, we have Ang Lee's Hulk Very excited to go back to the film that

• 1:49:50Chris Winterbauer?

  Kickstarted the MCU by not being part of the MCU and needing to form an MCU Guys, we are very excited to announce that We're going weekly

• 1:50:01Speaker 04

  Woo!

• 1:50:03Chris Winterbauer?

  That's right, now that Lizzie's back from maternity leave, we are going to work her to the bone! And, we can only do that by giving you guys four episodes a month instead of two, so this May, You are getting an episode every week, and we're gonna keep that going Until we die! So, we hope that you continue to enjoy this show, we're gonna be running more polls as a result On our Patreon, and of course, we'll be hoping To start to whittle down that list of films that you guys have been adding to through your recommendations We'll get there eventually Until next week, and until Hulk, thank you guys for joining us Hulk Smash!

• 1:50:45Speaker 02

  Go to patreon.com/whatwentwrongpodcast to support What Went Wrong and check out our website at whatwentwrongpod.com. What Went Wrong is a Sad Boom podcast, presented by Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer. Editing and music by David Bowman. Research for this episode provided by Jesse Winterbauer.