Part Three: Romana Didulo: Queen of Canada

Robert concludes the story of Romana Didulo, for now, with the tale of her ill-fated invasion of a small Canadian town. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Robert Evans?

  Welcome back to the podcast that this is part three of our episodes on Queen Romana Digiloh of Canada. And, you know, Canadians, thank you for letting us talk about your monarch, you know, your leader that I know you all love and respect. And I hope that we're being, you know, positively deferential towards your great ruler, you know, it's, I'm sorry. It's just so sad that Canada has to deal with having this crazy person run their country, you know, can you imagine what it would be like having like a crazy asshole in charge of your country? Just embarrassing. What is that like? Thank God, that's just a Canada problem. Jesus. I know. Sheesh.

• 0:51Robert Evans?

  It's okay, guys. You'll get your shit together one of these days, like we have in the Americas. Like us. I guess you're in the Americas too. Whatever. And you too can buy Greenland. All right.

• 1:06Speaker 01

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• 1:40Robert Evans?

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• 2:45Robert Evans?

  So August 2021 to December 2021 were very busy times for the Queen of Canada. She hits like, you know, like her peak, at least this is when Christine Sarteshi says she hits her peak number of followers, which is like 70 something thousand on Telegram. Now, at this point in time, because inflation's a problem and because the economy's not doing great and because her followers haven't been paying their bills, she's focused a lot on like the fine, on providing like what would look like lifelines to the finances of her people.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 3:20Robert Evans?

  She's got like these grocery pages that are supposed to like help her followers like purchase groceries, find groceries that they can like afford and stuff. She's issuing like decrees eliminating taxes and credit card debt. And she's issuing like fake money. And it's unclear how this is supposed to work. It's like a promissory note that you can print out from a downloadable template with like instructions that says you can use this money wherever you are. They're payable by the Kingdom of Canada. She also describes this as working basically the same as like money at the, at like the Canadian Tire Company, which like is, is this company that like sells, I think mostly used tires. And they have their own like fake company currency, right?

• 4:05Robert Evans?

  That like you can use for stuff within, if you're paying for other products, you can like accumulate it. A lot of businesses do this. And that's kind, which makes it very unclear. How is this supposed to work? Who is supposed to accept this, right? Like, what is the, and that's actually never made clear to me. These, these promissory notes, I'll pull one up. I'll do a screen share so you can, you can see what these fucking things look like.

• 4:31Speaker 03

  Real groceries with made up money?

• 4:34Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I think that's the idea is like they're supposed to find. It looks like a check. Yeah, it looks it looks kind of like a check. It's a promissory note. You get to write your own number in, so it's a blank check for all of your, all of your followers.

• 4:48Robert Evans?

  I don't know. It's really unclear to me how even her followers were supposed to believe this stuff worked. But obviously, like, it doesn't. Of course not. But you do have people like printing these out and she issues them when she's as they're driving around. They're stopping in towns and they're meeting up with like whatever followers they have in these individual towns. And she's handing these out to people, you know? So I think some of them just believe like eventually when this is valued, I'll finally be rich, you know? It's that's part of the whole big idea that like, uh, there's a change coming and it's going to completely alter my financial situation. And that that makes you kind of want to have to believe her. Yeah. Yeah. She continues making decrees. This is like the primary way that she interacts with her followers.

• 5:32Robert Evans?

  And as Sarteshi writes, the Kingdom of Canada was guided by three basic laws. Quote, number one, if you kill, you will be killed. Number two, if you kill en masse, commit genocide crimes against humanity, we will take out your family and your DNA strain.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  What?

• 5:46Robert Evans?

  We'll go back to that in a second. Three, war and division are unlawful. So if you commit crimes, we're going to kill your family and your DNA strain, war and division are unlawful.

• 5:57Speaker 04

  What?

• 6:01Speaker 03

  I thought you was telling us to kill the doctors.

• 6:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah, no, that's the, yeah, you gotta kill the doctors, but you can't divide people, prop. That's not, that's unlawful. That's unlawful. No dividing people. Kill all the doctors and the nurses and the school teachers and the business. But don't divide people, you know?

• 6:18Speaker 03

  We're gonna cut off your DNA strand. Again, I feel like that's gotta be a translation issue. Cause I'm like, I don't think, do you, you might actually mean that because you're an alien.

• 6:29Robert Evans?

  Yep. She does describe her office, the Royal Office of Queen Romana, to be the highest court in the land. Thus, all Canadian lawyers are now defunct, uh, because they have member, they're members of the British Accreditation Registry.

• 6:44Robert Evans?

  As opposed to, you know, the real judicial system that she, I guess, hasn't gotten around to building yet, you know?

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Dog commits it a bit, homie.

• 6:53Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 6:55Robert Evans?

  So in January of 2022, uh, Romana's like tour of Canada really takes off in a big way. She's got about a dozen followers. She's got a group of RVs and they start traveling, you know, initially into like downtown Ottawa. But after that point, they just kind of continue going, right? Like she's meeting people at various small towns. She's expanding her conception of like what's, you know, my powers are. She's making declarations as to martial law and they're just kind of like driving constantly. She's taking it, she's taken in six figures at this point, well over a hundred and forty thousand dollars in donations. It's unclear exactly how many, but that's what's got to pay for everything because they're, RVs are not cheap to drive, right?

• 7:40Robert Evans?

  And she's got to continue like paying for that. She's got to pay for uniforms for her people, as we'll talk about, like there's a lot of, there's a lot of expenses due to this, so.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Who's, who? Who's donating? Who?

• 7:54Robert Evans?

  She's got like 70,000 people on Telegram, so some, some of them are sending her money, you know? And it, it, it only takes a few. And she's also got a couple of her followers that are in-person followers. She's completely soaking, like they're signing over everything to her, right? Like she's, she's doing that thing too.

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:12Robert Evans?

  Now, as 2022 goes along, she's the road trip queen of Canada. She's issuing these, uh, she, these declarations, but she starts to expand what she's offering her followers because, you know, grocery lists and fake money only go so far. What people really want is magical powers. And in August of 2022, she announces that she has started teaching her followers, her powers to her followers. She gets on, basically she makes a video saying that like, I've started teaching people, you know, uh, given an intensive class and how people can think like me and act like commander in chief. So I'm teaching them all how to run a country, if that's ever necessary. I'm teaching them how to like take hostages.

• 8:53Robert Evans?

  And negotiate, uh, which is not a great sign for your cult. Per Christine Star Teshi, Digilow also said she's teaching her core followers how to cloak and uncloak themselves and how to use high level technologies, including 5G that Digilow claims will allow her trainees to see through the walls of buildings and homes. She contends that all science fiction movies and television series are disclosures, documentaries and diaries. Both the television series Star Trek and the movie The Tomorrow War seem to have had an unusually strong influence on Digilow. The Tomorrow War is her life storyline. A prop, have you ever seen The Tomorrow War?

• 9:30Speaker 03

  No.

• 9:31Robert Evans?

  No one did.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  I have not.

• 9:34Robert Evans?

  I'm sure someone in the audience watched the fucking Tomorrow War, but statistically you didn't.

• 9:39Speaker 04

  I did not.

• 9:40Speaker 03

  I have no idea what you're talking about.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  No idea.

• 9:42Robert Evans?

  Great, great. It's a 2021 sci-fi movie starring Chris Pratt, in which soldiers from the future come back to the present day to warn humanity that in the future, we're losing a war against alien invaders. And so they need to draft the whole present day military to go back to the future and fight them. And then when we run out of present day military, they just start drafting regular people to go to the future.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  I think I purposefully said, ain't no way in the world I'm gonna watch this.

• 10:11Robert Evans?

  Nah, nah, it doesn't sound good.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  I was like, I ain't finna watch this. I know I'm bored, but I ain't finna watch this.

• 10:16Speaker 04

  You lost me at Chris Pratt.

• 10:19Robert Evans?

  Chris Pratt?

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, you lost me at Chris Pratt.

• 10:22Robert Evans?

  So it grossed about $20 million in theaters from a budget of 200 million or so. So it does not do well. People are, people are, like, the writer and director of this movie are dragged out into the street and shot in downtown Hollywood. It's such a failure.

• 10:40Robert Evans?

  But Queen Romana loves this movie because she idolizes the queen alien, like the bad guy of the movie, I think. I haven't seen this fucking movie. But the aliens are called the White Spikes and the queen of the White Spikes is stronger than all of the males of her species. And Romana seems to really, really vibe with this.

• 11:00Speaker 03

  He latched on to that. Okay.

• 11:02Robert Evans?

  Sarteshi ties this movie. To Romana's belief in something called DNA X, which she describes as God's tool that she plans to release to every living, all caps, I am in the world. Go back to that weird little cult that we started this with. Dang, there it is. I don't know what this means. As best as I can tell, I think, because the original I am movement was based on this guy, this fucking dude hundreds of years ago, who'd claimed to be immortal and all knowing because of magic. And the I am movement was like, no, there's all these, it's actually like this divine, there's this set of tactics that you can find, it is still quasi occult. And she's taking basically those claims and saying, no, no, it's not the occult.

• 11:43Robert Evans?

  You can have all of these powers by alien DNA technology that will make you live long. Yeah, got it. And be all knowing, right? I think that's the gist of it. It's a little unclear to me exactly what she believes, because it's silly. Yeah. But that is- Because what the hell? Yeah, right.

• 11:58Speaker 04

  Because what the hell?

• 12:01Robert Evans?

  2022 is spent largely on the road in a caravan of RVs, one of which was gifted to her and several of which were rented. The exact makeup of her cult shifts rapidly at this point. For one thing, formerly loyal members don't last forever, right? Like, people find this and think that it's a good idea. And then she starts to be a crazy asshole to them. And eventually they have enough and they're like, this isn't fun anymore. And they bounce, right? Other people get, what? I need the water turned on, okay? Right. I'm good. I'm tired of not having water. Tired of not having water. Heating. Yeah. So people will leave, but other people will come in. So there's kind of, and it's never large. The in-person following is never bigger than like, much bigger than like a dozen people.

• 12:45Robert Evans?

  But there is some like, people will leave, people will come in, that's sort of happening, right? She's also purging people for making mistakes periodically, which keeps the numbers down. She has, at this point, by the time 2022 rolls around, her followers have uniforms. These are generally white button up shirts with the Queen Romana logo emblazoned on them, often adorned with official medals that she awarded in her capacity as Canadian Commander in Chief. Right? Like, and these are-

• 13:16Robert Evans?

  Cause like the one, the question whenever you've got one of these people handing out medals is like, okay, what kind of medals are these? Are you like, are these fake military medals? Are these like bottle caps? Like, what are we, what are we looking at here? And as best as I can tell, I think that these, at least from what I have read, and I think this is Mac Lamro, who made this claim, and I'm sure he's right. These are like mostly Boy Scout medals? Like, these are like Boy Scout awards?

• 13:41Speaker 03

  Love it. Love it. Change nothing.

• 13:44Robert Evans?

  It's, it's, it's good stuff. Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 03

  Dude, how come nobody in this whole situation was like, can I meet a, like a prince? Or like, like you ain't got no like accountant? Like this whole, like I ain't never met nobody else in this kingdom. Like, does anybody work for you?

• 14:03Robert Evans?

  You're the only one who believes you're the queen. And I guess the people who live in this RV and the handful of folks that we meet traveling, you know?

• 14:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but none of them are a part of your court. Like who?

• 14:13Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  Where's the rest of your administration?

• 14:17Robert Evans?

  Right. Yeah. Where's the rest of this? Doesn't feel like a government. Again, that's, that gets down to the whole, I think there's a lot of like play acting, you know? It takes two to tango with something like this. I do want to show you guys these uniforms because they're not as elaborate as they might sound from what I, mostly she's just got people wearing like white shirts with fucking medals and stuff on them.

• 14:40Robert Evans?

  But yeah, like those, and those are as soon as I saw the pictures, like, yeah, those do look like Boy Scout medals. This is to kind of look like Boy Scout medals.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's not a uniform and those are Boy Scout medals.

• 14:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah, they're just all dressed in white. They look a little sea or-

• 14:51Speaker 04

  They look like a golf caddies.

• 14:54Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 03

  He's got his, he's got his all access pass on like,

• 14:58Robert Evans?

  And you can see behind him is an RV that has like meet and greet her majesty, Queen Romana, yada, yada, yada. Like this, this is how they drive around their, their RVs are also billboards. He's got his finger pointed up at the sky, which is a thing that all of her followers do. I think they took this from, this is a thing in like the Muslim world. Like you'll see, like, and it basically means that like, you know, God's in charge, right?

• 15:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally.

• 15:20Robert Evans?

  It's all, you know, right? Like that's the idea.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  You're pointing at him.

• 15:23Robert Evans?

  I don't know if that's what it means to her for her followers to do that, but they are, that is the gesture they're doing. And that's, I'm sure that's where it came from. She must've just seen it on TV or something and liked it.

• 15:34Speaker 03

  Dang, imagine being that guy and then now you're like, that's on the internet forever.

• 15:40Robert Evans?

  That's on the internet forever. You in this uniform with like whatever fucking ID she made for you hanging around your neck and your Boy Scout awards for being the best special boy in the cult?

• 15:50Speaker 03

  Whatever stage pass you have on.

• 15:53Robert Evans?

  Like one day, that's a piece of, cause the guy in this is pretty young. He looks like he's in his twenties, maybe thirty. Like,

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:58Robert Evans?

  If he doesn't have kids, he very well might one day and someday they're gonna find out, hey dad?

• 16:04Speaker 03

  What is this?

• 16:04Robert Evans?

  Are you in a uniform? What are these awards? Is that, is that, that's say the Queen of Canada's RV?

• 16:12Robert Evans?

  My goodness. Let me tell you a story about the time dad made a mistake.

• 16:21Robert Evans?

  Queen DiDulo was incredibly, is incredibly serious about her schedule. And one of the worst things you can do if you really want to get kicked out of this cult, the easiest way to do it is to cost her time because that is a capital offense. Corey, one of her former inner circle members, lost his position after a series of minor errors, including booking an RV to be picked up at 5pm instead of 4pm. The queen called this treason and threatened to have him executed. She'd done this numerous times before and Matt Lamro notes that the methods varied from quote, being shot in the head or thrown from a helicopter. So she's saying like, I'm gonna have my men shoot you in the head. I'm gonna throw you out of a helicopter because you made me wait an hour to get in my new RV that you rented for me.

• 17:03Speaker 03

  I have royalty.

• 17:04Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  I need to borrow this RV.

• 17:07Robert Evans?

  Right. She justifies these punishments to the rest of her followers by saying, nobody controls my timeline. Anybody that screws up my timeline is going to be tried for treason and shot in the head.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Except for the people that own the RV.

• 17:19Robert Evans?

  Right.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  They control your time.

• 17:22Robert Evans?

  They, they might have more control over your timeline here.

• 17:26Robert Evans?

  But you know who won't have you tried for treason and shot in the head prop? They better not, but tell me about it. They better not sponsor this podcast. Very rarely have people shot in the head. You know, I'm not going to say never. I'm not going to say never. I might be doing an ad. They've definitely had some people shot in the head, you know? Yeah, but probably not.

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Can you stop naming brands, please?

• 17:46Robert Evans?

  Sophie knows they've had some people shot in the head. It's fine. We don't, we all keep drinking the soda. It's okay. The soda can literally clean your car battery and we still drink it.

• 17:59Speaker 04

  Roy, please bleep the name of the brand.

• 18:03Robert Evans?

  No, they'll know what it is. When, when, when props said it eats car batteries, they'll know we're talking about it.

• 18:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it's like now you have to keep the bit. Yeah.

• 18:09Speaker 04

  But still bleep it.

• 18:10Robert Evans?

  Anyway, here's ads.

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• 18:43Robert Evans?

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• 19:42Robert Evans?

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• 20:24Robert Evans?

  And we're back.

• 20:26Speaker 04

  You're killing me.

• 20:28Robert Evans?

  Yeah, baby. I'm killing everybody. Just like [BLEEP].

• 20:32Speaker 03

  I mean, you doing numbers. We might, we might want that sponsor money, though. They did invent the visual description of [BLEEP].

• 20:41Robert Evans?

  So as I noted earlier, Corey and Daisy were foundational cult members. Romana wouldn't have gotten this crazy train off the ground without them, and this did not stop her from abusing them relentlessly. The people you are most reliant on are the people you're going to be most shitty on if you're this kind of cult leader. Yeah, totally. And in fact, the fact that they were so useful and key may have encouraged her to abuse them. Maybe she felt kind of insecure that she needed them so much and she was really trying to like keep them beaten down. I don't actually know. But the two were doing a lot. They went from managing her Telegram channels to becoming her bodyguard, mechanic, and secretary. Daisy was also the royal bank account, setting up fundraisers and taking donations on behalf of the Queen. Didulo made impossible demands regularly to these people.

• 21:26Robert Evans?

  And whenever money came up short or the built-in limitations of technology thwarted her whims of the moment, she would bully Daisy, who later said, "The abuse was nonstop. It was never-ending. No proper meals, you know? No sleep." She continued, "She didn't care. She said, 'If you work for the Queen, you work for the Queen. You volunteered to be here. Why are you complaining?'" And like, that's a little bit of a point. She's got a little bit of a point. Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  You don't have to be here.

• 21:53Robert Evans?

  You knew what you were, you should have known what you were getting into with this, this dumb bullshit. Like, come on now. Like, you, you know what you were getting into.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 04

  Do we, do we have any idea how old this married couple, Daisy, and I've forgotten the name of the husband?

• 22:12Robert Evans?

  I'm guessing they were mature adults, probably in middle age, maybe we'll pass it. Yeah, a decent number of, but they're not all, some of them are pretty young. I, I don't actually know their, their like age range. But, you know, they're, they're old enough to know better.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  And to rent an RV.

• 22:27Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Sure.

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 22:31Robert Evans?

  Um, so during her months with the Queen, Daisy estimates that she lost between 10 and 15 pounds. Mark Lamro, who interviewed a number of former followers, describes the degree of control the Queen exercised over the day-to-day lives of her immediate tribe as pretty extensive. People would have to ask her for permission to even shower, which she periodically denied some individuals for days at a time.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  Why are they like that? Why is that a thing? Remember the, remember?

• 22:56Robert Evans?

  Well, it's, it's pretty normal cult leader stuff.

• 22:57Speaker 04

  I know, that's what I'm saying.

• 22:59Robert Evans?

  It's control over their bodies, over even like their ability to clean themselves. You're, you're, you're practicing, you know?

• 23:05Speaker 04

  You're in such close quarters, don't you want me?

• 23:07Speaker 03

  Where are you showering?

• 23:09Robert Evans?

  In the RV.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. You're in such close quarters and your punishment is that everybody has to smell that person's stank?

• 23:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 23:17Robert Evans?

  Well, she's not. She's, they, the RV where the people stay is different from the Queen's RV.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  True. Oh, I forgot. She got the royal RV.

• 23:24Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 23:25Robert Evans?

  She sometimes had a separate RV just to use as a bathroom.

• 23:29Speaker 03

  This lady has figured something out.

• 23:32Robert Evans?

  Uh-huh. Again, she is living well. Based on her previous life, she's doing really good.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  In relation to, yeah, but that's weird body control about smell. I feel like I would want people to smell amazing in front of me.

• 23:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  If I'm royal, if I'm royal, it's three showers a day. Y'all clean y'all's booties.

• 23:50Robert Evans?

  It's just about exercising control. If you can get him to do that, you can get him to do anything, you know?

• 23:55Speaker 03

  True.

• 23:57Robert Evans?

  And Romana spends most, despite claiming that she's, she's taking back Canada, she's the rightful ruler. All of her time is spent managing her followers, this very small number of in person. That's what she does. Her most of her work.

• 24:10Speaker 03

  Like 20 of them, right?

• 24:11Robert Evans?

  Right, and that's most of her work is keeping these people busy, you know? Keeping these people too busy and too beaten down to leave or to realize that like they're in like how fucked up the situation is. Part of how she does this is she, she hands up every morning, the day starts with her gathering everyone together and issuing them their tasks for the day. And we're talking a mix of stuff like we're all living in RVs. So there's waste tanks that have to be emptied. There's water tanks that have to be refilled. There's food that has to be purchased, but there's also bullshit work like we need new signs for the vehicles. I need someone to print out a bunch of these fake money things to hand out at the next stop, right? And she's, the point of this is there's some stuff that has to get done. There's a lot of busy work.

• 24:54Robert Evans?

  What's most important though is that she's keeping everyone busy all day. People would regularly work 16 hours at a time, but she's keeping the busy doing mostly bullshit tasks or like petty work tasks that they don't get anything done. They're not, they're, they came here to be part of this crusade to fix Canada and all they're doing is like maintaining the caravan and handling bullshit work for her, printing stuff out or making new signs or whatever. And so, and this is something former members will say is like, I felt like I worked all the time and nothing ever got done, right?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're just running a.

• 25:27Robert Evans?

  How cold.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  Running a Kinko's just.

• 25:30Robert Evans?

  Basically. And you think, you think about it, this isn't so unique to her. It's, it's shabbier and sadder because this is just like 10 people or 12 people living in a series of RVs. But that's what Scientology is, right? That's the whole point.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  Just with money.

• 25:46Robert Evans?

  You have, you have the C org and you have all these people, these auditors doing, it's, it's that you have petty work and tasks to keep the people who are full-time members of the cult. Constantly working, right? That's true. You want them always using up their energy. Otherwise, they're gonna put that energy towards maybe realizing that they're in a fucking cult. You know? Yeah. And Didulo's goal was to make sure everyone's exhausted and working all the time. So they don't have time to plot against her. One good example of this would be the account of a cult member who claims Romana made her wake up at 4 a.m. to turn on her hotel coffee maker. She would do stuff like this, demand people do very basic tasks for her. Yeah. That shouldn't even be necessary, just because it's an exertion. It's her use, like exercising control, right? Yeah, that's some, that's some bully gang stuff right there. Yeah.

• 26:31Robert Evans?

  Life inside the cult on the road, sounds like living hell to me. Here's one description of how Romana liked to start off their days, per an article in Vice. Quote, "Every morning at 6 or 7 a.m., the Queen would play her favorite song, disco supergroup Bony M's smash hit, Rasputin, about the well-endowed Russian mystic of the same name. Often, the funky vibes would last an hour. Once Didulo played Rasputin for the entire duration of a 10-hour drive while her staff just sat and listened. Her followers even recorded their own version of the song with lyrics about her." And...

• 27:05Robert Evans?

  It's the worst anti ever, like... Yeah. Oh, man. It's all, it's like 10 hours of fucking Rasputin. And I love that song. It's a great, it's a great, it's a banger of a hit, don't get me wrong. 10 hours? But 10 hours of that, and, and her obsession with it is so weird. Like, there's a, I'll, I'll pull up, there's a, like, you should actually hear her followers' version of Rasputin. I need to. That was gonna be my next request. So, if you wanna, if you listen in, check into the QAnon Anonymous episodes. I think it's the second one about Romana that has, with Mac Lamro, that has the actual audio of the song. I don't want us to get copyright struck, and I'm kinda worried that we might, especially what with the Netflix thing going on. So I'm just gonna actually sing you the lyrics.

• 27:50Robert Evans?

  So you're gonna get to listen to me sing, Yes! "As best as I can recall, in tune to the original song Rasputin by Bony M." Okay, are we ready? Yes.

• 27:59Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 28:00Robert Evans?

  There lives a fearless Queen Romana did you low. She may seem quite small, but she's oh so powerful. When communists amass to subjugate her peeps, she summoned allied forces to obliterate. Queen Romana lives for we the people, strong, benevolent and just. She's discreetly waking, sleeping people, daily building trust. Ra ra Romana, precious Queen of Canada. She's taking names and she's kicking ass. Ra ra Romana, precious Queen of Canada. Please hop on board or get off the bus. And there's a lot more to it. There's a fun line. She's liberating earth with wisdom and with grace,

• 28:44Robert Evans?

  but if her RVs rocking, she is dancing late. That's weird. That's a weird line to. That's weird, fam. Kind of makes me wonder if there's some weird sex stuff going on. I don't know. But yeah. Love it. It's great. Yeah. All of it. Again, don't change it. Yeah, beautiful stuff. Beautiful stuff. We all love to see people repurposing Boney M's work for the good of the world. Yeah. So as you might expect, hearing hours and hours of the song Rasputin played over and over again, even though that song's kind of a banger, might lead some people in the cult to wonder like, well, as Corey put it, oh my fucking lord, what are we doing? What the hell? Yes. She's yelling, we got a war, people. Time to get up and dancing around like a lunatic.

• 29:30Robert Evans?

  So this start does start to wear short on some people. The ridiculousness is kind of hard to continue to

• 29:38Robert Evans?

  stretch your sense of disbelief towards. One former member of the group told Vice that one day he took one of their RVs out to do errands. Like there were parts that they needed to pick up. I think for like their streaming rig, they needed to get food for dinner. So there's stuff he needed to do, but he didn't get Queen Romana's permission beforehand. Like he didn't double check with her. I can take the RV out. I have to go on an errand. And she exploded at him, relieving him of duty alongside the members who had left in the RV with him, just firing a bunch of her cult members and saying, you can't split up the convoy. Otherwise, our military is going to shoot you.

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 30:14Robert Evans?

  Where, where's the military that's gonna shoot you?

• 30:17Speaker 03

  What military?

• 30:18Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Right, yeah, what military? And the former member who gets kicked out is that guy named Cohen, who was, uh, he was disturbed at how distraught, uh, one of the, one of the cult members was that she fires, that like this, he's kind of, I think, done with it at this point, when she fires him, he's like, good, I'm out of here. But this lady's like, losing her mind, weeping and stuff. Quote, "She really thought it was her destiny to be there." And I think that that gets, that really gets to something important, I've tried to emphasize a few times, some people are begging to be in a cult, right? They are desperate for any kind of meaning, right?

• 30:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:54Robert Evans?

  Even this, even something that it's something, it's more meaningful than, go to work and pay your bills, right?

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:03Robert Evans?

  Anything.

• 31:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, something important, nah, that's, now we're getting at something, to, cause to weep about this, rather than being like,

• 31:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 03

  This game is trash.

• 31:12Robert Evans?

  This is, this was fucked up from the get, and again, it just, it's, there's something like, almost physically painful to some people at being cut off from this, when you finally found it, right? When you finally found the thing that gives you a sense of belonging, and you get kicked out of it, like, that's like, losing a limb.

• 31:28Robert Evans?

  Cohen, though, is, you know, he's fed up by the time he gets fired. And so, he takes his personal video and recording equipment with him, he's one of the guys who knew how to do things, who joined the cult.

• 31:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:38Robert Evans?

  And the queen is not happy about this. She gets on Telegram, she declares him a thief, she claims he's kidnapped other staff who left with him. She posts videos of, of Cohen, along with his picture and links to his social media. She calls him a devil worshipper, and she sentences him to death.

• 31:56Robert Evans?

  And her followers, uh, you know, attack him with as much zealousness as they'd attacked all of the other enemies of the group.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah!

• 32:05Robert Evans?

  One follower posted, "He will not survive what is coming." Uh, another added that Cohen was, quote, "A fan of Satan and a traitor." Uh, and another wrote, "Maybe he should be the first to hang publicly, for all the other traitors to, to see what to expect." So that's kind of a blister of at least things that are adjacent to death threats. And all Cohen could do was sort of hunker down to avoid the storm. I didn't answer a single phone call, but my phone was constantly blowing up with Telegram messages and text messages. Then a few people found my personal Facebook page and commented randomly on some posts. One of them, like a six-year-old woman who looks really nice, and she was like, "You will burn." What? Well, it's just the amount of rage when you tell people like this. Yeah.

• 32:46Robert Evans?

  Your bullshit game that has become the entire core of your life. This is the only thing that excites you. This is like, this is your friend group. This is, you're addicted to this. And this guy doesn't believe it. He left, even though he actually just got fired. Like, yeah, you get enraged. And in part, you're kind of taking out your anger at the rest of the world on this person. Because at some level, they all know this isn't real, right? Yeah. And that makes them pissed. Yeah. So, as you might get from some of this, Ramona's not wildly loyal to her cult members. And in fact, she is so unsatisfied with the quality of her first band of cult members that she fires them all. This is one of my favorite things about her story. It also kind of hints at the weird resilience of her grift.

• 33:31Robert Evans?

  From what I can tell, it sounds like the breakdown started because she was planning to extend her road trip into the United States in a desperate attempt to avoid going back to her normal life and to try to get some of that American money, right? Yeah. But some of her followers, including Cory and Daisy, had children and were like, "Well, we're just going to Ottawa, and then you wanted to drive around for a few months, and we were down with that, but we can't do this forever." And so Ramona's like, "Well, if you have kids, simply move them in with your family and then abandon them for the cause." And a few of her followers have kids, and they're like, "What? Okay. I didn't think that's what we were doing." This, yeah, guys, abandon shit, man. Yep, yep.

• 34:13Robert Evans?

  So, this is all coming to a head as the caravan makes its way into Newfoundland, which is not a heavily populated part of Canada. And they're kind of in the middle of nowhere of Newfoundland, which is itself kind of the middle of nowhere. And- The day after, she makes everyone listen to Rasputin for 10 hours while driving through the middle of nowhere, Canada, right? They're stopped, they're all tired. She probably keeps them up late. And then she wakes everyone up early, playing her fucking Rasputin song and yelling about how there's a war on and says, everyone skip breakfast. We got to start driving right now. And Cory and Daisy have finally had enough and they close the door in her face. And they're like, no, we're gonna sleep. Like, we're not getting up yet. And we're gonna eat. And Queen DiDulo just leaves them. She abandons almost, basically, it sounds like pretty much all of her staff, 2,000 miles away from her homes, takes the

• 34:58Robert Evans?

  RVs, that's like rent cars to get home, and declares them traitors and warns them to watch your backs, right? Just leaves them in Newfoundland.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Traitors. All right.

• 35:09Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  She, yeah, she's smelling her own stuff way too much, man.

• 35:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So, you know, not long after that, in August of 2022, Queen DiDulo carries out her next major real world endeavor. This is in a town called Peterborough, where she has gotten, been convinced for a while and been ranting for a while about like the police in Peterborough and how they're enforcing COVID mandates and whatnot. They're, they're corrupt. We're gonna do a citizen's arrest, all that good stuff, right? Like, that's, this is all kind of like, and it's a little hard for me to tell like, why she focuses specifically on this small town. I think maybe some of it is just that like, well, this was a, like a small enough town that maybe she thought it would work. Some of

• 35:58Robert Evans?

  it is that one of her followers, this guy Frank Curtin, lives in the town. And he starts, like, he organizes like a mass event to do a citizen arrest of all these police. So I think it may have just been that like, she had a follower who was like, no, it'll work if we do it here. You know, they have, there's this, they've got this meme going on that's like, they're calling the police chief, the retire borough police chief, because they're trying to get him to retire and threaten to arrest him if he doesn't. To quote from Sartesh's piece about Frank Curtin, "Curtin is one of DiDulo's most ardent supporters and provides a useful example of an active agent. Curtin came to believe in DiDulo's ideas after..." After parting ways with his employer, approximately one year before the Peterborough event, problems began between Curtin and his employer when his employer received funds

• 36:43Robert Evans?

  from the government to boost the manufacturing of hand sanitizer as part of the fight against COVID-19. Curtin considered this government funding suspicious. He believes that COVID-19 is fake and that his employer had collected that money illegally. These conspiratorial beliefs then allegedly led to Curtin's departure from the company. After leaving the company, Curtin began regularly serving Digilos cease and desist orders to public officials. He then specifically targeted Police Chief Scott Gilbert of the Peterborough Police Department. Curtin was upset about not receiving from the Police Chief Gilbert what Gilbert deemed to be an appropriate response to his complaint about his employer's supposed illegal activities. Curtin recorded himself serving a cease and desist order upon Chief Gilbert and posted the video on his YouTube channel. Right? So, yeah. This is a really good example of how these kind of things snowball, right?

• 37:27Robert Evans?

  This is not a guy who's living with the caravan. He starts just serving her cease and desists, but she's following him. He's posting as he's in the Telegram, he's putting these up. He's talking about how corrupt the police are. Romana is like, "Oh, this might be useful." So she starts some memes about retire, you know, the police chief and we're gonna arrest all of them. And it just becomes an increasing thing to her followers. And this kind of makes it inevitable that there's going to be a showdown in Peterborough, right? Like, they're gonna have to do something there.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, this goes from funny to annoying to like, okay, you have to stop.

• 38:00Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Right, right. And we're gonna talk about what happened next, but first, ads.

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• 38:38Robert Evans?

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• 39:37Robert Evans?

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• 40:18Robert Evans?

  We're back. So this guy Frank Curtin has becoming, gotten, you know, as a result of getting fired and losing his mind over like COVID stuff, both lost his job and is increasingly becoming unhinged. He's fallen into this rabbit hole of diddylow stuff and he's gotten obsessed with Chief Gilbert, his town's police chief. He's posting videos about how like, there's this plane that he'll see flying every now and then that he believes the police chief is flying above his house to like fuck with him specifically. So this is not a well man, right? Um, this is really not a well man and he's He's incredibly angry about like the vaccines and the police are showing up at like vac- to protect vaccine sites because of crazy people like Frank Curtin, right?

• 41:02Robert Evans?

  And so this all comes to a head in August of 2022, um, which is when Queen Didulo's caravan shows up in Peterborough for her next major real world endeavor. She's gathered around 40 of her followers and she's told them, you know, these officers and their chief are all complicit in COVID crimes and we're going to arrest them. And so they show up in this town and she attempts to arrest the entire police department. Uh, Frank Curtin starts by announcing, "Today we are going to turn the members of the Peterborough Police Station over to the US Special Forces Military, the Canadian Military, and the Global Military Alliance who will pick them up once we detain them."

• 41:40Speaker 03

  The who?

• 41:41Robert Evans?

  Well, it's, it makes a lot of sense, Prop. It's the US Special Forces Military, not the regular military. They're not involved, but the regular Canadian military is involved and of course, the Global Military Alliance. They're all going to show up after we arrest them. They can't arrest the cops themselves, the, the, all the militaries in the world. They don't have the power.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:01Robert Evans?

  We the people have to do that. But then they'll detain them, once we the people have detained them. In response, the police use one of the most dastardly tricks, right? These people show up outside of the police station, they say they're going to arrest them and the cops lock the door.

• 42:16Robert Evans?

  Just like, eh, not dealing with this right now. Let's see if they go away.

• 42:21Speaker 03

  I'm almost on break, fam. Like, I'm just locked the door.

• 42:25Robert Evans?

  Man, I don't want to deal with this today. So Didulo is reduced for a while to heckling them over a bullhorn, demanding the police turn themselves in. Eventually, the police reinforcements arrive. One man tells them they're under arrest and the cops are like, "No, I mean, like, you're actually under arrest."

• 42:41Robert Evans?

  We are, we are the cops. We have like the guns and stuff. Yeah. You're just a guy.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  We're trying to be respectful, guys. We're really trying to be respectful.

• 42:48Robert Evans?

  With some RVs behind you. Yeah.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  But you're not cops.

• 42:52Robert Evans?

  You are definitely not cops.

• 42:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:54Robert Evans?

  The Guardian summarizes what happened next. "Speaking to supporters over a megaphone, Didulo fired up the small crowd but fled to her RV when scuffles with the police began and some of her disciples were arrested. She was somebody who was boosting this effort and was very much in favor of it until it went south, in which case she threw all of her followers under the bus. She's very big on self-preservation."

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Clearly.

• 43:15Robert Evans?

  The quote from- One of the observers, yeah, six people were arrested, two with assaulting a police officer, but there were no charges for the Queen. And so her merry road trip continued. She gathered another gaggle of a dozen or so followers together. She bought a $62,000 RV with some of the donated money and had another RV donated to the cause.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 43:36Robert Evans?

  And she attempted, at this point, I do think, though, she's starting to see it's expensive to drive around all the time. I want to settle somewhere, but I can't get, I still am not willing to go back to my normal life, which is when she finds a small town called Richmond in 2023. And she finds this because one of the guys who lives in the town has bought, Richmond had a school, but it's a very small town, right? And it's one of those things, the school becomes defunct, you know?

• 44:02Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 44:02Robert Evans?

  I think because there just like, aren't enough people to keep it going.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:06Robert Evans?

  And there's this local guy who's become a follower of her cult, or at least a partial follower of her cult, who buys, who's like purchased the school and the land that it's on. And he invites them to come over and like move in, basically, like, hey, like, you can live in this old school that I technically own and live in Richmond, this tiny ass little small town in Canada. Doesn't that sound like a good life?

• 44:34Speaker 03

  This don't sound royal, fam.

• 44:36Robert Evans?

  Yeah. So there's a mix of problems. For one thing, there's a couple of people in town who believe her. So like, at least one Richmond resident told W5 News that her father stopped paying his bills because D'Antoni said so. But a lot of people are just unhappy about it. For one thing, they've been kicked out of at least one town prior to this, where like, they showed up and were trying to set up shop there and like, the mayor and a bunch of the local residents had it out for them and like, ran them out of town by banking it a really uncomfortable place for them to live.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:09Robert Evans?

  And they tried to do that in Richmond. A lot of people do. There's a lot of complaints. There's local government meetings about it, but they're not quite able to kick them out of Richmond with the speed that they want to, because in part, they have a really good thing going. They have this whole school that they can live in, that they're turning into like, their government headquarters. So they don't, they don't want to go.

• 45:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:29Robert Evans?

  Right?

• 45:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, we finally got some progress. Yeah.

• 45:32Robert Evans?

  Right. I think there's also, she's starting to lose followers by this point. She's not at her height. So I, I think there's this understanding that like, well, I may be near the end of this grift in the beginning, and I want to settle down somewhere where like, we've got a stable place to live and whatnot. Like, maybe that's the, and Manns, who's the guy who's bought them the property, is also just kind of somebody who's, he's like a right wing crank who hates the COVID-19 vaccine. And so some of this is just, I think he hates everyone around him and wants to piss them off.

• 46:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:05Robert Evans?

  This is a huge issue in Richmond for a while, right? There's protests. Some people do go a little bit overboard in being paranoid about the cult too, but I, I understand basically they don't want these people fucking up their little town, right?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's weird.

• 46:19Robert Evans?

  And she starts making claims and the cult does that like, well, there's a lot of us, if we all become residents, you know, we can vote in local elections and shift the elections. They're kind of doing like what that cult in Antelope, Oregon did, that wild, wild country, they're talking about it, right? So this also really pisses off people. Like, I don't want my tiny town to be taken over by these weird assholes, right?

• 46:44Robert Evans?

  Yeah, it just sounds like, yeah, kind of shitty. So, you know, this goes on for, I think, like a year and change. And it only really hit, there's like kind of an inflection point that came recently, where a bunch of them got arrested, uh, very recently. Like, this is, um, yeah, I, yeah, fucking finally, right?

• 47:10Robert Evans?

  In September, like the fall of 2025, she gets arrested. And it's, it's kind of some bullshit. She doesn't get arrested for any of the actual, like, really fucked up shit that she does.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  Still A-CAB, but.

• 47:25Robert Evans?

  Yeah, right. Like, she gets arrested. It's not even that. It's just like, they, they, they don't arrest her for the actual bad stuff. They arrest her for like intimidating four people, including a police officer. And, uh, like, basically for intimidating people in town. As opposed to the time she tried to get people killed, or tried to have all those police arrested, or got people to stop paying their bills. It's like, kind of like witness intimidation almost.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, they just arrested you for being weird.

• 47:55Robert Evans?

  They arrested her for being weird and she's, you know, she livestreams the arrest. There's this satisfying moment where the officers are like, "Leave the phone, you're under her arrest."

• 48:07Robert Evans?

  They, part of what prompted the RCMP to raid in the first place was that there were pictures of guns from inside the property, but they turned out to be replica handguns. I don't know how far this case is going to go. There's a good chance she gets fucked over just because she is representing herself, which is a bad decision, so she might fuck herself over here. But the charges aren't super crazy, right? Like, she's not getting charged with most of the actual bad cult leader stuff. Maybe she'll successfully fundraise off of this. We don't really know where things are gonna go from here, right?

• 48:39Speaker 03

  But there's no body count.

• 48:41Robert Evans?

  No, there's not a body count, other than that cat, maybe?

• 48:44Speaker 03

  Other than the cat.

• 48:45Robert Evans?

  It's a pretty tame story, right? It's just, I thought it was fun. I thought we'd all have some fun.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  This is great, man.

• 48:51Robert Evans?

  Yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  It's good stuff. It's like, yeah, like, you don't make fun of, like, people who fall into cults, because like you said, you know, glass houses and stones and all that, you know? And then, on the other hand, it's like, "Bro, you stopped paying your utilities? And that wasn't it?" I feel like I can make fun of you for that.

• 49:14Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Now, there is a nice little postscript to this cult, because we don't know what's gonna happen with Romana, but I do want to talk for just a second about the King of America, David Carlson.

• 49:25Speaker 03

  Okay, yes, please.

• 49:26Robert Evans?

  Because he did crop up a year or two ago, and people started talking to him. And at first, he was very positive towards Romana, and then he kind of soured on her, and he started making it clear, like, "Oh, I didn't say she was the queen. I said she was, like, in the running to be the queen. Like, she might be, right?"

• 49:43Speaker 03

  That's not what I said. I ain't say that.

• 49:46Robert Evans?

  The two of them have had a break, right? And there's a-

• 49:50Robert Evans?

  I want to read, I'm just gonna read the start of this, uh, this Vice article about him, uh, cause it has a really funny opening. "Wearing a Florida Gators t-shirt, an Arizona man in his mid 40s attempts to convince the hundreds of thousands of conspiracy theorists watching his laptop livestream that he's the real leader of the United States. King David Carlson explains that he still has a few million people to take out before he's finally done with his plan, installing QAnon kings and queens around the world." Around the world. He's great. He claims they've replaced, Joe Biden was taken out on election day. We've replaced sheriffs and other leaders, you know, uh, and we're, we, and he's been appointing a lot of kings. He's appointed a king to the Kingdom of Britain, which I think already has a king. There's a king to the Kingdom of Sweden, which I think already has a king. There's a king of New Zealand, which I don't think had a

• 50:35Robert Evans?

  king. Um, there's a, there's a minister of North Carolina. Uh, there's a queen, Helen Edwards of the Kingdom of Australia. Uh, and then there's her excellency Karen, Minister of New Jersey, obviously. Oh, these guys are, they're so wonderful, man. Yeah, they're, they're great. This is fun. They're great, dude. My favorite is that since Queen Romana has fallen out of the king's favor, he, she's no longer the Queen of Canada, but he has appointed a new Queen of Canada, uh, a Quebec woman who was a follower of Queen Romana and wrote a fan poem about her, but has now been appointed the real Queen of Canada. And so I, I guess took the throne in a coup of some sort. This is great. This is great.

• 51:18Speaker 04

  Wild times.

• 51:19Robert Evans?

  And there's a great, I'm gonna show you, the last thing I'll show you is I want to show you the royal seal of, I, I, I think who we can all agree is a better pick for Queen of Canada, Queen Charmaine.

• 51:31Speaker 04

  It's a cool name.

• 51:32Robert Evans?

  And I just, I just love this. I love this, folks. Show me Queen Charmaine. Queen Charmaine of Canada, first of her name. It's like a pink logo with a, with a very airbrushed face of a blonde woman. Queen Charmaine written in.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  It's giving toddlers and tiaras.

• 51:49Robert Evans?

  Yeah. Natural laws, zero politics, royal decrees, benevolent monarchy.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  It's like if Mar-a-Lago face in, uh, toddlers and tiaras were like.

• 52:00Robert Evans?

  This is, this is. She does have some Mar-a-Lago face going on. On Instagram who shouldn't be on Instagram, keeping all them filters on her face. Yup.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Facts. Wow.

• 52:12Robert Evans?

  Queen Charmaine.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  Thanks for sharing, Robert.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Thank you, Charmaine.

• 52:15Robert Evans?

  Well, I know for my part, I now am declaring my allegiance to Queen Charmaine, you know?

• 52:21Speaker 03

  I will take Queen Charmaine.

• 52:22Robert Evans?

  You guys want to declare your allegiance?

• 52:23Speaker 04

  I do not.

• 52:26Robert Evans?

  Queen Charmaine it is, everyone.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  All right, as long as I can shower.

• 52:30Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 52:31Robert Evans?

  Sure.

• 52:32Speaker 04

  Listen.

• 52:32Robert Evans?

  She looks like she showers.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  She showers a lot.

• 52:34Speaker 04

  All I gotta say is, listen to Hot Politics with Brop.

• 52:38Speaker 03

  Please listen to Hot Politics with Brop with some more of this foolishness.

• 52:42Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh.

• 52:46Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  My lord, thank you. Thank you for this. I needed this. I really did.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  This is refreshing. Thank you, Robert.

• 52:53Robert Evans?

  Mm-hmm. All right, everybody.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  This could have been a reverse Bastards. I ain't gonna hold you. Like, just for the rest of it.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Go to hell. I love you. Is that what you said, Robert?

• 53:06Robert Evans?

  Yeah, I say that sometimes.

• 53:08Speaker 04

  That's nice.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  All right.

• 53:10Speaker 04

  Bye.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media. For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Hit Remind Me on Netflix so you don't miss an episode. For clips and our older episode catalog, continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel, youtube.com/AtBehindTheBastards. We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking.

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• 54:51Speaker 08

  How do you know that Claude won't become manipulative?

• 54:55Speaker 09

  This is a constant worry.

• 54:58Speaker 10

  And you can actually catch the model thinking, I think X is actually true, but I'm going to tell the user Y.

• 55:04Speaker 08

  I'm Walter Isaacson. On my new podcast, The Builders, I'm going inside the minds of the people shaping our future. Listen to The Builders starting October 13th on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 55:21Speaker 11

  In 1986, a man named Scott Macklem was killed in broad daylight.

• 55:27Speaker 11

  Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm reexamining this case.

• 55:36Speaker 12

  I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're going to figure out this is not me. They're going to do their police job.

• 55:43Speaker 11

  Has the wrong man been in prison this whole time?

• 55:48Speaker 11

  Listen to Examine: The Backfire Effect on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 55:59Speaker 11

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.