Mom's Car: Larry Trilling

On this week’s episode of Mom’s Car, we welcome acclaimed director of Parenthood and sweetest man Larry Trilling. Larry, Dax, and Best Friend Aaron Weakley talk through attending Santa Monica High School with the entire cast of The Outsiders, catching the directing bug making Super 8 films in middle and high school, directing the first Comedy Central original movie Porn and Chicken, learning how to motivate blocking with storytelling, and the gang discuss their top-five favorite movies and shows of all time. #sponsored by @Allstate. Go to https://bit.ly/momscar to check Allstate first and see how much you could save on car insurance. Follow Mom's Car on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Mom's Car ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting https://wondery.com/plus now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Hello and welcome to Mom's Car. Today, and this is a long time coming. I think I talk about Larry Trilling more than any other director I've ever worked with. He directed something like 60 of the 100 and some parenthoods. And he's just the sweetest, sweetest, sweetest man I've ever worked with. And it's such a joy to have him in the car today. And to get to introduce him to my best friend, Aaron. And we just had the most lovely, pleasant time. He's so smart and he's so thoughtful. And I just love him to death. Please enjoy Larry Trilling. You know what's smart? Checking Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds on car insurance. You know what's not smart?

• 0:44Dax Shepard?

  Not checking the coffee lids secure before you take that first sip. My morning coffee ended up all over me and let me tell you, that smell does not come out easily. Yeah, checking first is smart. So check Allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North America Insurance Co. and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois.

• 1:26Dax Shepard?

  So what state were you just in? Utah?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I was in Vancouver, British Columbia.

• 1:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, were you by Whistler?

• 1:32Speaker 01

  I actually drove up to Whistler for the day. Rented a car and drove through Squamish and into Whistler.

• 1:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I went when I was probably 21. I was dating a girl that had moved to Bellevue, Washington. And then we were both snowboarders. It was very cool.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  It was beautiful.

• 1:46Dax Shepard?

  All I remember is it was illegal to sell cold beer. So all of the liquor stores had these cooling tanks in front that were like ice cold water. And you'd spin the beer in there to cool it down.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  That is insane.

• 1:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, there's another one of these systems where you're like, oh my God. So you can do it. It's just you gotta do it in a really complicated manner.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Spin the beer around, flattens it.

• 2:08Dax Shepard?

  Either you can't have cold beer or you can't. Can't have a workaround.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  What is the point of that law?

• 2:13Dax Shepard?

  I guess to discourage people from pounding them in the store.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  I guess, well, you know, remember the South always had the workers, the tall boy cans.

• 2:23Dax Shepard?

  At the register.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  Yes, in the big bucket of ice.

• 2:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  And it was like, well, you know damn well, you're cracking it the second you walk out that door.

• 2:32Dax Shepard?

  And drives you liquor stores.

• 2:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay, I'm not told Aaron this because I knew it would be too exciting to learn about you before he was around you.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  He has a labradoodle, is that what you're gonna tell me?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:45Dax Shepard?

  That was it.

• 2:45Speaker 01

  That's the most interesting thing about me.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  I looked him up.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  That's why I'm here.

• 2:50Dax Shepard?

  Aaron loves his doodle. When he walks his dogs in Michigan, people yell out the window, what kind of doodle is that? It's a very emasculating dog.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  It's a very metro dog you have.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  I've had the toughest guys go, yo, man, what kind of doodle is that? And I was like, I'm anticipating a fight and I'm like, oh, golden.

• 3:12Dax Shepard?

  Golden doodle. Are both of them? What's the little one?

• 3:14Speaker 02

  A cavapoo. He's a King Charles Cavalier and a poodle.

• 3:20Dax Shepard?

  I wouldn't have predicted that for you in your future. Okay, so we both, of course, like everyone, were obsessed with Outsiders, the movie, growing up.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 3:30Dax Shepard?

  Loved all gang movies. Aaron doesn't know that you went to school with virtually the entire class.

• 3:35Speaker 02

  Oh, you were in that.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  They don't know me.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  You went to Santa Monica.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  I went to Santa Monica High School with, you know, the Pen Brothers, Charlie Sheen, Rob Lowe. And then I used to work out at the 24 Hour Fitness in Brentwood and they all came in together, Tom Cruise and Rob Lowe.

• 3:51Dax Shepard?

  As a pack.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  They work out together, see Thomas Howell, and just kind of trot around Brentwood together.

• 3:57Dax Shepard?

  Had their movies already aired? Did you have like a great interest in them?

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Well, Rob wasn't at school that much, so and he's a couple of years older than me, but I remember when Class came out, remember the movie Class? And they were like, that guy went to Samo. I said, oh, that's right. And I looked him up in the yearbook. He wasn't that involved in school versus like Robert Downey Jr. Was in the plays and I saw him, he was absolutely riveting in this play.

• 4:19Dax Shepard?

  You thought that?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, he was magic. So Matt Reeves, the director, and I were students there. And so we tried to get him to be in our film.

• 4:26Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay, a student film.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  A student film. And so he was like, how much are you gonna pay me?

• 4:31Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  And I said, no, we don't have any money. He's like, no, no, no. He's already a professional actor, you know, but he was so unbelievable. So none of his success surprised me at all. Charlie Sheen was a baseball player. He wasn't in drama.

• 4:43Dax Shepard?

  He was playing at Samo, Ohio.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  He played at Samo and he was serious about baseball. Think he may have had professional aspirations before acting.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  And then he did, what's the movie, the Cleveland Indians?

• 4:53Speaker 01

  Oh, Major League.

• 4:54Speaker 02

  Major League, yeah. I remember reading that about him, that he was a baseball player.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  All those guys were a little older than me. The only one I was actually friends with was Dean Cain.

• 5:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wonderful.

• 5:04Speaker 01

  Who was Superman.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Was there, who didn't that school spit out those couple of years?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  The main reason why is because at that time, Malibu didn't have its own high school. It was the Santa Monica, Malibu school district. So all those Hollywood kids lived in Malibu.

• 5:18Dax Shepard?

  Like the Sheens.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  The Sheens, the Pens.

• 5:21Dax Shepard?

  Sean Penn.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Dean Cain's dad was a director. He directed Young Guns, Chris Kane.

• 5:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God. We love Young Guns.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Dean, I played basketball with, such a nice guy, an amazing guy. And then he went to Princeton, dated Brooke Shields, was the all-time leading interception leader in the Ivy League.

• 5:37Dax Shepard?

  Maybe took Brooke Shields' virginity, she said in her book?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Could be.

• 5:41Dax Shepard?

  I think in her book, she said that.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  Lucky both of them.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  I guess, you're right.

• 5:47Dax Shepard?

  Superman.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  I hadn't seen him for a few years and then it was kind of a low moment. I was delivering pizzas and I wound up delivering to him. And he answered the door. "How you doing, Dean?" He said, "Oh, my God, I just got cast as Superman with Terry Hatcher. I'm gonna be starring in this show." He's like, "What are you up to?" And I'm like, "I'm giving you your pizza. What am I up to?"

• 6:03Dax Shepard?

  I'm up to so much. It's crazy I'm able to deliver this pizza in this moment. So look at here we are, I'm delivering food, so you never know.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  Nothing's popped up yet?

• 6:12Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no. It'll take a long time. We'll mostly just drive around and we pray that it comes up. Something will hit. So none of those guys, though, other than Dean, were your direct age?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  At least one year older to a few years older. Holly Robinson also was there. Holly Robinson Peet. Remember her?

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Holly Robinson.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  She's on some TV shows and movies. She also married Rodney Peet, the football player. He was a Detroit Lion.

• 6:35Speaker 02

  He was a Lion, yeah.

• 6:36Dax Shepard?

  Oh, good job, guys. Sports knowledge. Don't you think it says something about the evolution? And this is a debate you and I were just in recently. But nowadays, all those kids, because again, the Sheens are Martin Sheen's kids.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 6:49Dax Shepard?

  Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen. A lot of these people had money. Downey's dad was successful.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 6:54Dax Shepard?

  They would have definitely been at a private school now. It says a lot that all those kids were in public school.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, Santa Monica was a very esteemed school district back then. And people moved to Santa Monica for the schools. And private school wasn't really much of a thing in L.A. yet. There were a couple.

• 7:10Dax Shepard?

  Was Crossroads around?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Crossroads was a weirdo experimental school. So not until the middle to late 80s did it become more established as a more mainstream place to go.

• 7:21Dax Shepard?

  And what about like the Harvard-West legs?

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was that class of kids that went to Harvard or Brentwood. If you grew up in Santa Monica, I mean, you went to public school. That's why you would live there.

• 7:29Dax Shepard?

  What year did you graduate from there?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  I graduated Santa Monica High in 1984.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  Is that when the outsiders came on?

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Eighty-four, eighty-five. And then Rumblefish was like the year after, right?

• 7:39Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  You guys Rumblefish fans too?

• 7:41Dax Shepard?

  Every S.E. Hinton movie I loved. My favorite of all of them was That Was Then, This Is Now. Do you remember that one?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, Emilio Estevez.

• 7:48Dax Shepard?

  That's right.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  And Craig Sheffer, right?

• 7:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure, sure, sure. Do you ever ponder on this? There was a group of really famous young actors when we were younger that were leads and quite successfully leads. And then they just kind of disappeared. That guy was one of them that you just mentioned.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Well, I remember when Craig Sheffer was in, I think it was what, River Runs Through It?

• 8:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, oh, my gosh.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  He was the bigger star. Pitt was not the star.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  What a movie.

• 8:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  I'm gonna have to get right down to the screen tonight.

• 8:18Dax Shepard?

  That is a beautiful movie.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  It is.

• 8:20Dax Shepard?

  The narration's quite beautiful.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  I know, I wonder about the people like that who, you know, if you have a little taste of that and then it goes away so quickly, is it painful? I mean, I think it would be for most people. Some people might make peace with it and say that, no, it's just a little chapter of my life.

• 8:33Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and I've long had the urge to do maybe like a 10-episode, little compartmentalized version of Armchair, where I talk to all those people. And then I'm so afraid of approaching them and that it would feel to them like, uh, where are they now? But I would just be more interested, because I bet we're wrong. I bet a lot of people just saw their way out, one way or another.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  And I think it's a battlefield for people who it happens to really young. Or that's interesting with someone like Ralph Macchio, who would have been that guy, but now he's having a renaissance in the same role.

• 9:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Like 30 or 40 years later.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Has refused to learn a lick of karate.

• 9:11Dax Shepard?

  Good for him.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Sorry.

• 9:12Dax Shepard?

  I mean, like if you're on ships for 35 years and you never learned to ride a motorbike.

• 9:16Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Believe me, I love the show. I watch it with my kids and I'm like, oh, he just really still hasn't worked out or learned karate, huh?

• 9:27Speaker 01

  And now he's doing it with Jackie Chan in a movie, so they made a movie.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, that's right, I saw that coming up.

• 9:32Dax Shepard?

  And now I see it's the universe, because I just saw a poster for like a Karate Kid something. And it's like unrelated to all of it, but it's Karate Kid.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Oh my god, the universe.

• 9:40Dax Shepard?

  Now, what age did you, Larry, set your sights on being a director? If you were offering Robert Downey a role in high school.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  It's interesting, even though I grew up in Santa Monica and grew up adjacent to all this Hollywood stuff, I was not in that milieu at all. I didn't know anybody in the business.

• 9:58Dax Shepard?

  What did your dad do?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  My dad was a stockbroker and my mom worked in her brother's pharmacy. You know, very middle-class Santa Monica existence, or upper-middle class. But then I loved movies just as a viewer, but then I had the good fortune to meet Matt Reeves. He was just this little cinema geek genius from the time he was like 13 or 14. And he seduced me into his little world of filmmaking.

• 10:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, he infected you with his dream.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, he had a super eight camera, he had all the equipment, and he asked me to write a Movie with him and then I wrote it with him and then I acted in it. And then I just got bit. So we made three or four movies together in junior high and high school. But he owned all the equipment, so he got to be the director.

• 10:35Dax Shepard?

  And what kind of equipment are we talking about?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Super eight, super eight millimeter, but sync sound, so he had more elevated sound system.

• 10:42Dax Shepard?

  Was his family in the business in any way?

• 10:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, his dad was an ABC television exec and worked with Michael Eisner. At one point had a little independent production company and made some movies of the week and stuff. So Matt was my entree. And then we had this film that we made that got onto the public access station in LA.

• 11:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, how did that happen?

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Because there was this dude named Gerard Revell and he had this show called Air Your Shorts. And so all the kids would send in their short films and he would air them. So we'd be like, oh my God, three o'clock today on channel three, our movie's gonna be on TV. And we'd run him from school to watch it. It was so exciting.

• 11:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, that is so exciting.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  And we met JJ Abrams that way because our film and his film were in a film festival of these films that screened at the New Art Theater in LA.

• 11:27Dax Shepard?

  And where's he from?

• 11:28Speaker 01

  JJ's from the Palisades.

• 11:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, he is. I certainly meet a lot of people that work in this industry that are from here. But then also I've come up with people who were from here and they didn't have that same desperation. All of us who left our homes and our families.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 11:42Dax Shepard?

  Your life would be a failure if you don't achieve that goal. Because it's the only reason you're here. How do you think it's a benefit and then how is it a curse?

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's a great question. I think the benefit is that you have better balance in your life. Like my family and friends are here. My whole existence in LA isn't determined by the business, even growing up. So I wasn't feeling like a failure every second I wasn't achieving my dream.

• 12:03Dax Shepard?

  Like I was.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Right, that's probably the benefit. I guess the curse is that it's just, it's not a curse, but it's just like, I think I got bit just as hard as you or anybody who came here. Maybe I had the advantage of a little balance.

• 12:12Dax Shepard?

  I'm presuming you're that much closer to it because you're living in LA, you're seeing movie stars, you're going to school with kids who do this already for a living. That must seem at least more achievable, or at least you're meeting people that do it.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  You're right. I think it seemed less impossible or distant or remote. I didn't grow up with people, other than Matt and his family, I didn't know other people whose parents were in the business. Even so. It was just more part of the culture here and it seemed more doable.

• 12:38Dax Shepard?

  And you think it made it more or less difficult for you to announce to your parents? Like, I'm gonna go study this?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  I'm really blessed that that was not a challenge for me. My parents were so supportive.

• 12:48Dax Shepard?

  They wanted you to be a filmmaker.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  My dad initially wanted me to be a stockbroker with him. He wanted to teach me the business because he was very good at it, proud of it. And I just didn't have that in me. But he knew that pretty quickly and then he was like, alright, but if you're gonna do this. First of all, he said, I don't want you to major in it in college. He wanted me to have like a good, solid liberal arts education to fall back on.

• 13:06Dax Shepard?

  So what was your major?

• 13:07Speaker 01

  I was an English major.

• 13:08Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  So it was just like a good liberal arts major.

• 13:10Dax Shepard?

  At what school?

• 13:11Speaker 01

  At Columbia. Then I went to UCLA for film school. So these are like, after you get your broad education, then we'll support you 100% going for it. Both my parents were really encouraging. When I meet young people who want to do this and the first thing they say is, I don't know, my parents don't want to, I know they're not gonna get there because that either has to not matter to you or it's gonna stop you.

• 13:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  But if you're mentioning it right away, it means probably it ain't gonna happen.

• 13:32Dax Shepard?

  It's not a great indicator.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Mm-mm.

• 13:34Dax Shepard?

  And how long after you got out of UCLA do you start being employed as a director?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Several years. So college, then film school for four years.

• 13:44Dax Shepard?

  Four years?

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Well, it was really like three, it's a lot of time for an MFA.

• 13:48Dax Shepard?

  Should've been a doctor.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, four at Columbia, four at UCLA. Four years and no employment skills whatsoever comes out of it. Unemployable. It's crazy because I was delivering pizzas during my time there and then after that. So yeah, I literally was like, here I come Hollywood, but nobody cared. That's partly because it takes about a year to make a thesis film, raise the money, to shoot it, to edit it. And so it's probably like two to three years of classwork and then you do a year where you're really just working on your thesis film. So I did that and it became a bit of a calling card and I got meetings and stuff and some encouragement. But it took a solid five more years before I made a nickel in the business.

• 14:24Dax Shepard?

  What was your like emotional state during that time? Were you ever considering deviating or pivoting?

• 14:31Speaker 01

  I gave myself this artificial deadline of five years and said, I'll go to law school in five years if I don't have anything happening. And it was just maybe slightly more than five years. But when that five-year ceiling was coming, I was like, I just gotta take matters into my own hands. And so I co-wrote with my cousin a feature that we made. Then I sold a feature too, that I co-wrote. And that was produced as an independent, low-budget film. But the one that I made wound up becoming a calling card and got me an agent. And finally started to get big ball rolling. But that was five years.

• 14:59Dax Shepard?

  And do you start in TV?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  Well, I started off making two independent films. And I had definitely had a goal of being a movie filmmaker.

• 15:06Dax Shepard?

  Cause that's what you had fallen in love with as a kid.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I liked TV, but you know, when we grew up, it was all about movies. That's where the great acting and great storytelling was happening.

• 15:13Dax Shepard?

  All the lines you were quoting.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was just much more cultural. You know, the TV was fun and I liked it, but movies were...

• 15:19Dax Shepard?

  It wasn't artistic at all, yeah. I think it's funny, if you were born 98 onward, that would be a crazy thought. That TV wasn't appealing or alluring.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  I know.

• 15:29Dax Shepard?

  But it was either super procedural one hour, or it was some multi-cam sitcom, pretty much.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  Right, and there were a couple of exceptions, like 30-something was incredibly inspiring. Or Hill Street Blues, or shows that broke them all a little bit, that were more cinematic, more emotional, more meaty.

• 15:43Dax Shepard?

  What was the first TV show you got to direct?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Felicity.

• 15:45Dax Shepard?

  Which was now J.J. Abrams?

• 15:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that came full circle. So I made this feature film called Dinner and Driving. And it was a really fun little independent feature. Molly Shannon's in it, Adam Scott is in it, Joey Slottnit.

• 15:57Dax Shepard?

  We love Adam Scott. Do you love Adam Scott?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I love Adam Scott.

• 16:00Dax Shepard?

  He's so pumped when you see him.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  I gave him one of his first roles.

• 16:03Dax Shepard?

  Do you have like that sense of pride when you see him in Severance?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Him and the other one is Eben Moss Backrack. I gave him one of his first roles ever too. It starred in Porn and Chicken that I wrote and directed. Which was Comedy Central's first original movie.

• 16:14Dax Shepard?

  Porn and Chicken?

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you got a cough? Yeah, look at this. This is called Pet Stront? Oh my God, I hope this is for someone's dog.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  It is. Look at it. The universe is with us.

• 16:27Dax Shepard?

  Wow, if it's not a humbling enough job to deliver other people food, the notion that like you're bringing a dog its food is really unique.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  That's hilarious.

• 16:37Speaker 02

  I would like the Uber for dogs.

• 16:42Dax Shepard?

  A bunch of treats in your car?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:45Dax Shepard?

  They must have one, right? Because people need to get their dogs to like.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  I'm guessing, like to the bit. Yeah, you get bit attacks.

• 16:52Dax Shepard?

  So Felicity, did you knowing JJ play any role in that?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yes, JJ and Matt Reeves, they created the show together. So what happened was I made this feature film that I told you about, and they really liked it. And they said, well, why don't you come and shadow and observe while Matt and I direct? JJ and Matt had made that offer and I shadowed them. I hung around the set as much as they could and then they were incredibly generous. They gave me a shot and went well.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  That was an incredibly popular show, right?

• 17:17Speaker 01

  It was never like an enormous hit, but it has a very devoted following. It's like Parenthood, but Parenthood was bigger than Felicity, but where it's grown over the years.

• 17:26Dax Shepard?

  Right, right.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  I think my daughters have watched it, just like they watch.

• 17:32Dax Shepard?

  Gilmore Girls.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Gilmore Girls, yeah, like they are into all of the.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so nice. That stuff still holds up.

• 17:38Dax Shepard?

  So when you started, I think, well, you tell me. I've only directed TV a couple of times. It's a tricky endeavor as opposed to movies.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:48Dax Shepard?

  Because the director in a movie is the boss. It's the most important opinion on a set. And in television, the most important opinion is from the showrunner or the writer. And you're walking into a situation where the tone and everything's already established. So you kind of got to carry on the tone. It has its own unique challenges, right?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:07Dax Shepard?

  What were you immediately good at? And what did you immediately go like, oh, I got to figure this part out?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  What's one thing if you're doing the pilot or the beginning first episode, where you're really establishing the visual vocabulary and the style and tone of the show? That's different. But if you're coming in to do an episode and it's been established, you have to walk that balance of being respectful and mindful of what's been there. But then you can still have the ambition to elevate it or tell a great story within the.

• 18:30Dax Shepard?

  Do the best version it could be.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, paint within the lines. But the competitor in me was always like, I'm going to come and do the best episode.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Look at all this ice cream this dog gets.

• 18:38Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  I'm joking. It's not ice cream, but it looks like it. It's just a shit ton of dog food.

• 18:46Dax Shepard?

  This is great.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  This is awesome. I think I was good at kind of navigating that piece of the puzzle, which is some episodic directors become too passive because they think they don't have enough of a role to play and they can just essentially come in and direct traffic, which I know you experience as an actor, those kinds.

• 19:02Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  And then there are ones who come and don't understand the show and are trying to take in a direction it doesn't belong. So it's about really being confident and having a point of view, but within the boundaries of what the show is. And I think maybe if I had any early mistakes would have been not having enough confidence about where I thought, you know, like maybe listening to people who said, "Well, I think we should do it this way." And I might have deferred a little too much early on because, "Oh, well, they're here all the time, so they know." But really, the director is the one thinking about everything. And even if someone's been there all the time and they're the production designer, the editor, or the DP, whatever, they're looking at their lane. They may not necessarily be looking at everything.

• 19:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  And so I may have been overly deferential at the beginning.

• 19:40Dax Shepard?

  To the other people that work there all the time.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, the DP here, even a dolly grip or whatever. "I think we should push in here." "Well, no, let's not. We don't really do that." And I was like, "Well, you know what? Let's do that anyway."

• 19:50Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Finding my confidence, but that just came through experience. And then also got a lot better at staging things. So one thing is blocking and moving the actors around in space and the dance between the actors and the camera. You go in by yourself and walk the set with the script and imagine how the actors are going to move through space. And then you write a shot list and you plan it that way. Well, when a talented, smart actor comes in, they might do something totally different in the rehearsal.

• 20:14Dax Shepard?

  I never come in that door. I come in that door.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I come over there. Why would I sit there? I don't want to go there just because the shot is cool. I mean, I have to be motivated. So A, I learned to motivate blocking with storytelling and also then to be able and be nimble enough to be like, "You know what? Let's throw that away. Okay, let's do it this way." That's a skill set you have to develop, blocking for the camera. It can really throw at an inexperienced director when the actors or anybody wants to change the blocking. And you have to have the confidence to go like, "You know what? That's a better idea. I don't look like an idiot for being overruled. I look good for being overruled because I recognize the better idea."

• 20:45Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  And just move on. So putting your ego aside, those are the things that you kind of learn along the way.

• 20:50Dax Shepard?

  Well, you are by far, and I would even argue of everyone I've ever worked with, I think you're among the best I've ever seen with dealing with actors. You're really, really, really quite good at it. And I did wonder if that was always the thing that came easy to you, or that required a lot of learning as well.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, first of all.

• 21:10Dax Shepard?

  By a landslide. You're such a beautiful person to work with.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Aw, man.

• 21:13Dax Shepard?

  And respectful.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Well, I'm very touched.

• 21:16Dax Shepard?

  Because I get triggered easily.

• 21:19Dax Shepard?

  I'm sure you saw me. It's like male authority figures.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Well, you probably had a few battles, too.

• 21:23Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  But I've been always very good spirited.

• 21:26Dax Shepard?

  I think it was clear we loved each other, which helps.

• 21:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:29Dax Shepard?

  If you're a visitor and we had no rapport and you had to deal with that, then yeah, that was probably annoying for them.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  First of all, I did enough acting to at least understand a little bit about what the actor has to deal with and what the challenges are. Never aspired to do it professionally, but I did enough of it. And then I took classes directing actors. I had a wonderful teacher named Judith Weston, who wrote a couple of great books about working with actors. And she was really, really helpful in helping me develop vocabulary.

• 21:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so what are some of the things? Because I have no formal education, so I'm just curious.

• 21:58Speaker 01

  Well, you have a formal education as an actor.

• 22:00Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, and just being on sets for a long, long time. But I'm interested even that there is written about approaches. I wouldn't have even known that.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  I mean, some of it is honestly just the natural empathic social skills, you know, about like understanding how to move someone in a direction of a more emotional place or whatever. The aim of the scene is whatever you're trying to get to, whether that's a laugh or a cry or whatever it is. And then what are the behaviors? But that's the thing that I learned from Judith Weston is that don't talk about the result of what you want to see. Don't give the adjective.

• 22:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  Talk about the process, how they're going to get there. Talk about the verb. So instead of saying, be angry at Aaron because he fucked up the delivery.

• 22:40Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  No, scold Aaron for missing it, you know, attack Aaron.

• 22:44Dax Shepard?

  Don't tell him what emotion they're supposed to have.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Don't tell me, because by the way, someone could attack someone very quietly. Someone could attack someone very loudly. Another one is a really good one is the using imaginative substitution as if. Like, open the door as if you hadn't seen this person in 10 years, even if that's not what the scene's about. Think about when you had a reunion with someone, you know, as if you had to confront your parents with something that was a very shameful. Or trying to put the actor in the imaginative space of something urgent and emotional. As opposed to just saying, can you be angrier here? Can you yell real loud and thrust this thing around? And then it becomes, you know, if the actor can process that and find a way to make it internal, great, but you haven't helped them get there.

• 23:23Dax Shepard?

  Right, right, right, right. You're like a football coach, too. I interviewed Pete Carroll, and I was just fascinated. He gets this group of young men, and some of them have had no dads, and some of them have had a great dad, who they love getting the approval of. And he clearly has to have two almost diametrically opposed approaches for those two situations.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:46Dax Shepard?

  Do you think you got good at thin slicing personality types? Where you could go like, oh, yeah, I need this approach for this person?

• 23:52Speaker 01

  I think so. Some actors really want a lot of engagement. They want to talk about everything, the whole life history of their character.

• 24:00Dax Shepard?

  And do you believe that? Because as a fellow actor, I'm like, this is all bullshit. You want us to know you worked really hard on this? Because we all have this guilt that the job is too easy, which it is too easy. And it's too fun, and you get paid too much money. You have to really demonstrate at all times, like, I'm working so hard at this. And I just, for the most part, I kind of reject that position.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Well, you're not that kind of an actor. For me, it's like, whatever gets you there. For some people, that's their training, and especially actors that come out of the theater, and they want to be able to be a deep well and pull from different imagined experiences to create the character. I think it's valid, but it's definitely not everyone's process. The challenge is when you're working with two actors that, working together, have opposite processes.

• 24:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Like, when I worked on Goliath, I got to work with two of my heroes, Billy Bob Thornton and William Hurt, and they had the opposite approaches. You know, William was a Juilliard-trained theater actor, and I had to spend hours off-set with him. And this is a guy who was like, an Academy Award-winning, amazing actor, but he had really wanted to investigate the text in a way that was so exhaustive and could be exhausting. And Billy was like, if I talk about it, I'm ruining it. Just say action, and let's see what happens.

• 25:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 25:07Speaker 01

  And so, those two guys in a scene together, one who wants to rehearse for weeks, someone who refused... refuses to rehearse.

• 25:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  The one who refuses to rehearse wins because you can't make him show up. So I would rehearse with William privately and then Billy would just do his thing on the deck. And they're both amazing. So it's like, to me, as long as you get the performance.

• 25:23Dax Shepard?

  Well, I gotta say, I was in the tricky situation on Chips, which is Pena's very much like William Hurt. And I'm very much like Billy Bob Thornton.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 25:31Dax Shepard?

  So we have the weird dynamic of scene partners who have a different approach. And then we have me directing and I have to do for him things I wouldn't do as a scene partner. It's very complex.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  When you were off camera and he's on camera, were you being more of a director than a scene partner? Like, were you manipulating his performance through your off-camera performance?

• 25:50Dax Shepard?

  So I was definitely manipulating my off-camera, right? Because what's easy for me is to go big. And he is an incredible actor. And he's reticent to just go big. Like, if there's explosions going off, like, I want to hear screaming, blah, blah. And so that wasn't his first instinct. And I would just be so big, knowing I'm not even going to use it. Just minimally, he'd have to match somewhat. There was that dynamic. But the one I totally missed, it took me a good two or three weeks of filming before this occurred to me, which now is so obvious and stupid, is we would cut. I wouldn't go anywhere. I'd be like, oh, that's great. Let's do it a little faster, blah, blah, blah, right? And I would just say some things. And that was going on for a few weeks.

• 26:32Dax Shepard?

  And then one time I elcute and I go, do you know that I say to myself, Dex, you gotta be way louder and have way more energy? I go, you're not hearing it vocalized, but I'm beating the shit out of myself in my head. And then I talked to you. And he was like, oh, yeah, I'm glad I know that. And then I was like, yes, of course. He must think, he's never heard me receive an adjustment. Now, I'm making adjustments, but he's not receiving it. He's just hearing adjustments for him, for the scene partner.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  The other guy's crushing it. I'm making all these.

• 27:01Dax Shepard?

  He thinks he's flawless on take one. I was sympathetic to that, but it just went over my head. I'm like, oh, he knows I beat the shit out of myself and I hate everything I do.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  I really admired that ability to be in those two spaces at once. Because you have to be so present for. The other performance, and then you have to give your own.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Did you ever act outside of high school?

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Not seriously. I was in a few student films. It was never gonna be my life's ambition. I just didn't have it.

• 27:27Dax Shepard?

  Did you love it, though?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fun.

• 27:28Dax Shepard?

  It's really fun.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Pretending.

• 27:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. How about you, Aaron? Have you ever done any performing?

• 27:33Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, no.

• 27:34Dax Shepard?

  He should have. He should have come out with me.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:37Dax Shepard?

  It could have been a comedy duo.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, that would have been fun. Regrets, right? I enjoyed performing.

• 27:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, junior high.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Just being like spontaneously funny and goofy. And we were guys kind of like a team together that way?

• 27:48Dax Shepard?

  We were a duo. I'm sure you've heard me say this, but for both of us, the best year of our entire lives. And I've had a charmed life. Still, 7th grade is the best year of my life.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  Did you grow a bunch that year, right? You got tall that year?

• 28:00Dax Shepard?

  No, I was already enormous, but I had moved to a new junior high. And Aaron and I had become friends, and we became friends in a way. And I'm sure you have these... Everything became crystal clear, which is like, as long as Aaron's laughing, I don't care what anyone else thinks. I have a single audience member in my life now. It's so important to me that I make him laugh, and I think vice versa. And I think when you're that age, that reads as such confidence. So we became this really popular duo. Like, the kids would imitate whatever voices we made up. And we'd go to parties and act obnoxious, and everyone loved it. We were movie stars. We just were so popular all of a sudden, and we loved... We loved it so much.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  And did it grow from 7th to 12th, or where did it go from there?

• 28:42Speaker 02

  We had a couple of year gap in our seeing each other.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Did you guys have a falling out?

• 28:46Dax Shepard?

  We were starting to go on divergent paths. I was into being bad, but I wasn't into stealing four-wheelers. I was into throwing apples. I wasn't into smashing plate glass windows. I was into stealing cigarettes from the store, but I wasn't into getting hammered and huffing gas.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Got it. Mild delinquency versus serious delinquency.

• 29:05Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't make the cut at some point.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:11Dax Shepard?

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• 29:56Dax Shepard?

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• 30:41Dax Shepard?

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• 30:58Speaker 02

  But then we caught back up in 11th grade and it was as if no time really had lapsed. I couldn't believe like, why did I even leave this? Like, I didn't like that other stuff. I don't know what I was doing.

• 31:11Dax Shepard?

  It was just all fighting and getting fucked up and stealing shit. And just Sean Penn bad boys.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, at that age, you're exploding in all different directions. It's all happening so radically.

• 31:21Dax Shepard?

  And Aaron's home life was considerably worse than mine. Mine had straightened out by the time we met. That was the sweet spot of my life. There was no stepdad. Financially, it was working. Everything for me like started getting good and promising.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  And then all of a sudden I met him, who was the most understanding and non judgmental and very caring. And it was something you rarely would see in a

• 31:45Speaker 01

  You've always been like that, huh?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  And a young, and a young kid.

• 31:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I love Aaron so much.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Have you always been, easily expressed your affection for people and that kind of thing? That's been something you've always been like that?

• 31:55Speaker 02

  We came to the conclusion that, oh my God, did you just always want a child since you were 12? Like, he just needed to take care of someone always.

• 32:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and Aaron's been calling me dad since we were in jail.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:12Dax Shepard?

  My nickname.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:13Speaker 01

  That's beautiful.

• 32:13Dax Shepard?

  Like, I got him a car for Christmas in 11th grade. I like, yeah, I got this car running.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  And I'd be like, look what my dad got me.

• 32:21Dax Shepard?

  This is the great love story of my life, is Aaron Wiggly.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 32:25Dax Shepard?

  When we got back together in high school, Aaron was now sober, I was sober. Then we entered the punk rock scene, full on. Every single weekend, we went to shows.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  In Detroit?

• 32:35Dax Shepard?

  In Detroit.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  What were the main bands? Like, who were you guys hardcore into?

• 32:38Speaker 02

  At that time, it was a lot of bands from Washington DC. We were into like that straight edge, Ian McKay.

• 32:45Dax Shepard?

  You know Fugazi?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:46Dax Shepard?

  And his, his label was Discord, so everyone on Discord we liked. But we go to these wild shows, Larry, that were like, Sick of It All was a band from New York. And half the people that followed Sick of It All were like, straight edge progressives like us. And then the other half were straight skinheads.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:02Dax Shepard?

  Like racist skinheads. You'd go to these shows and it was just terrifying in the most exhilarating way.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Would you get into the scrum with them and bash around with them?

• 33:11Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 33:12Dax Shepard?

  But we also, we were the jesters there. It was almost 7th grade all over again. Like, we had this little scene and we did weird stuff and people thought it was funny. And, yeah, we're just kind of back in business. You know, when we graduated, we then went and lived in the car for six months together, driving around the country. And then when we got home, everything was hunky dory. And then I just woke up one day, I was like, I gotta get out of here immediately.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Gotta go to college?

• 33:36Dax Shepard?

  I'm having so much fun. We drink every day.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was like, I gotta go back to Los Angeles and try to do something.

• 33:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  And I was like.

• 33:45Dax Shepard?

  See ya.

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Already? Like, great, I'm kinda like just getting my foot in the oven here.

• 33:52Speaker 01

  What was that inspiration, Dax? Like, why did that happen, when it happened?

• 33:55Dax Shepard?

  I just could see, my life was very obvious what was gonna happen, which is I worked for my family business. My brother and mom were partners. I was getting entrusted with more stuff. I was kinda good at it. And I just was like, this is what I'm gonna end up doing. I'm gonna blink and I'm gonna be 30. I just had the sense that I was gonna blink and be 30. I got myself in kind of a really fun cage that maybe I'd be afraid I wouldn't break out of. And then when I came to California, it was like, I wanna be Bukowski. That's all I wanted to be. I wrote every night for hours and I submitted short stories. I was obsessed with that notion. And then also I told myself I'll do stand-up. And I never did it in Santa Barbara. And then I took a little trip on the weekend to LA and I did an open mic night. And I was like, okay, we're in. We're gonna move to LA.

• 34:40Dax Shepard?

  And I had met someone that explained the groundlings to me and that was less scary. And so, I was a little embarrassed in our friendship group that I was out here pursuing acting.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  Did it just seem soft?

• 34:48Dax Shepard?

  It felt soft, yeah, yeah. It felt masculine somehow that I was doing this.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  What were you doing to pay the bills then?

• 34:55Dax Shepard?

  Still working for my mom's company. All through college, on the weekends, I'd get out of class at UCLA at like 2:00 PM and I'd immediately get in a car and I would drive all night and get to Detroit Friday night. I always got there around midnight. We had two hours. And then we would get shit-faced till like 4:00 in the morning. And then I'd wake up on Saturday at like 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning and get in the car and drive back to LA.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  You have to have to go to Detroit to LA in a weekend?

• 35:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes, back and forth.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 35:26Dax Shepard?

  And then go to school Monday. And I would do often that twice in a month. And every single time, it was always when I'd be in Colorado on the way back, I would go. I can't ever do this again. I cannot say yes when they ask me next weekend. And I couldn't resist not partying with my friends because I didn't live there. And I get so excited to be home. I did that, or and then the summer we would go away and do these big elaborate events at racetracks where you'd invite car journalists and they would drive all the new GM cars. And those would be a week long and you could work 100 hours and make a lot of money. And then I worked at CPK for a minute, but generally I just did that.

• 36:06Dax Shepard?

  So one thing I thought could be really fun, Larry, to talk about is to make a couple lists, maybe. And people may or may not know, 99% of being on a set is not acting or filming. It's hanging out, waiting for them to light, waiting for something to happen. And you're really just shooting the shit nonstop. And you and I had just endless interest in each other's opinions. Monday's a great day because everyone's watched 60 Minutes. How do we feel about 60 Minutes? And but along the way, I discovered that I think you and I have very similar tastes in movies. We seem to have almost identical. And so I thought, because Eric asked you to make him a list of movies he should watch with his daughter.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:50Dax Shepard?

  And you did, and he has loved it. And he is supposed to have forwarded me that list, which he's forgotten to do over the last few days. But I thought maybe we could do some top, like top five comedy, top five drama.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 37:04Dax Shepard?

  All right. You have time to think right now. I go up to.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Get to think. How often do they know you?

• 37:10Dax Shepard?

  Almost never.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  Really?

• 37:11Dax Shepard?

  Yes. It's a wonderfully humbling experience.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Kristen went with us once and people saw it.

• 37:16Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and every single person.

• 37:20Dax Shepard?

  All right, nice meeting you.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Well, that was cute.

• 37:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that was lovely.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  Cute dog, it was a doodle. How do you, can you even believe it?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  It's meant to be, man. It isn't meant to be.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I can't believe that's where we started and our pickup was at a pet restaurant.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  And have you not been called again?

• 37:39Dax Shepard?

  That is insane. So, well, I guess my first question before we do a list is, I'll go first, so you know what I'm saying. The very first thing I ever watched that made me question, what is going on that makes this what it is? Was Raising Arizona.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Where you were thinking there's a voice, or a person, or an entity that's making this happen. It's just not unfolding in real time.

• 38:01Dax Shepard?

  And more than that, you know, remember the sequence where he steals the Huggies? And he's running down the street, and then the dogs are chasing him through the house? I mean, what I didn't know then is like, they're on a 17. They're on this really wide lens, which looks very specific, and most things are not shot in that. So like, A, just visually, there was something going on that was much different. I just started realizing like, oh, these are assembled and manufactured in a way that they can come out differently visually, and then obviously it was so original tonally. I think before that I just took movies as a matter of fact. Here's a movie, I love movies. But I never got bogged down into like, the mechanics of why it was pleasurable, or that I liked it. That was kind of my gateway movie. How about you? Did you have a gateway?

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think it was Annie Hall. For different reasons, because I didn't really develop a visual sensibility as much. I think I had more of an ear for dialogue and for behavior. The eye came later. But the way that people talked to each other, and the way that he talked to the camera directly, the snappy banter, and the way that there was a combination of comedy and then genuine emotion.

• 39:09Dax Shepard?

  How much of it, that there was a Jewish lead? Was that in the mix?

• 39:13Speaker 01

  That was in the mix, that sort of self-deprecating neurotic Jewish trope was very familiar.

• 39:19Dax Shepard?

  And had it really been done, or had it?

• 39:20Speaker 01

  It had, but not in that particular way. Definitely there were TV characters like that, but...

• 39:26Dax Shepard?

  But I would imagine those were Gentiles kind of lampooning what they had witnessed versus coming from the inside.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, also, he would always get the girl, even though he was nerdy, you know? So I think that spoke to me.

• 39:36Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yeah.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Also, like, the smart guy wins kind of thing, you know? It's not that jock, it's the smart guy wins. He gets the girl, you know? So it was part of that. But it was really just the idea that there's this music to the language, and there's a romance about New York City. And then I just felt swept up in it. Movies were always immersive, but something I was just ready to go. To recognize that there was a hand in that. And I think it was easier to know that because Woody Allen wrote, directed, and starred in it. So it was very clear to go, oh, that's his movie. And he made this, it was his point of view and his sensibility.

• 40:08Dax Shepard?

  Right, it wasn't a committee.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Right, that's when I realized, oh, there is a point of view, like you were talking about, from a visual standpoint.

• 40:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, related to that reaction, my breakthrough in that realm was definitely Pulp Fiction, which I was like 18, I think, when that movie came out. I'm just starting to go to weird movie theaters that aren't the Cineplex to see things. And that was the first time I was like, I wouldn't have, again, known this language at the time, but where dialogue could be the set piece. Dialogue could be the big monster. It could be the big attraction. And I found that, like you, I always loved communicating. I love words so much. I love vocabularies, and I just thought, oh, wow. I'm very attracted to that, and I think I could write like that. Do you remember watching Pulp Fiction the first time?

• 40:57Speaker 01

  I do, I loved it, for all the same reasons you did. But I think, just like with muse, I'm older than you. I was already steeped in loving movies. But I do think that with movies and with music, between the age of like 13 and 20 is the spot for things making lifelong gut-punching impact.

• 41:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  I think after that, it really diminishes. Even if you love something, it's unlikely to be seminal in your creative thinking.

• 41:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you don't incorporate it into your identity.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you were, what, 27 when that came out? And so you had already kind of defined your identity.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I did love the movie. There's nothing against the movie, it's just literally how it hits you.

• 41:34Dax Shepard?

  If you had to list the top three Tarantino... Well, first of all, how big of a Tarantino file are you? Some people are obsessed, I'm obsessed.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would say not as far along as you are, but I love him and admire him. Favorite movies make me feel deeply. And his don't. They are wildly entertaining.

• 41:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  They're visual delights and I love them. But they don't rock my world. Water doesn't come out of my face. Watching his movies. So my favorite movies do that for the most part. Like something about it just gives me the chills and I don't get that from him. Not a criticism. That's not what he's trying to do.

• 42:08Dax Shepard?

  Let me ask you this. You are very, very like, I guess I get credit often for being very emotionally available as a dude. But you're even nine years ahead of me. Were you hiding that side of you? Or were you very comfortable being that way? Cause I think that's something I like a lot about you.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. I was comfortable with it, but I had conflict because I always got along really well with girls and women, you know, growing up. But I think that I put myself in the friend zone so often with girls I actually was attracted to.

• 42:38Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I didn't have any game. I was just like, I really like you and I want to know all about you. And pretty soon they're telling me about all about the guy they have a crush on. And I have to hear all about it and it sucks. I wish that I didn't reveal it so much.

• 42:50Dax Shepard?

  You paid a little price for it.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  I paid a price and I also feel like maybe, cause I have this high lispy voice that people maybe thought I was gay. You know, stuff like that. So.

• 42:59Dax Shepard?

  Were you self-conscious of that?

• 43:00Speaker 01

  Self-conscious about being effeminate. Yeah. And so that thing of being emotionally available and all that was.

• 43:07Dax Shepard?

  It wasn't super price to me.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't like, there wasn't a whole lot of currency. It did make me popular, but in terms of where the currency was, you know, getting girls, getting the group, that didn't help me there. So I think it would have if I made a little pivot, looking back. Like I could have done that and just been more confident with it.

• 43:22Dax Shepard?

  You could have been swimming in ass.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 43:26Dax Shepard?

  You would have mixed in a couple wheelies on dirt bikes. That's what I did and then seen the level.

• 43:30Speaker 01

  But I think I underestimated the humor. You guys were funny and you could do the wheelies. But they say, you know, you can make them laugh and you can make them breakfast, you know? I love that expression.

• 43:40Dax Shepard?

  I like that a lot. You can make them laugh. You can make them breakfast.

• 43:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think, I wish I knew that a little younger.

• 43:45Dax Shepard?

  Okay. So if you were to, just give me your top three Tarantino movies.

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Top three Tarantino movies?

• 43:51Dax Shepard?

  In order.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, in order. Okay. I'm gonna go, is Kill Bill one movie or two movies?

• 43:57Dax Shepard?

  Great question. I'll let you pick that as one.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go Pulp Fiction, Kill Bill. To me, those are above everything else by a lot.

• 44:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  And then I would say the next one, I could go for either Reservoir Dogs or Inglourious Basterds.

• 44:12Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now I'm gonna make an educated guess right now.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 44:15Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna predict that you saw Once Upon a Time in the theater and you have not seen it since.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  That's correct, and I do like it, but it didn't even occur to me.

• 44:23Dax Shepard?

  You must, must, I proselytize this movie, it's all I talk about. I have watched that movie six or eight times in the last 18 months.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Then he asked me, "When's the last time you've seen this?" I go, "When it came out." So he watched it again. I watched it again when I got home. And I was like, "Oh my god, he was fucking right. How did I not love it that much?" I know sometimes you have to watch it a couple times, but yeah, did not.

• 44:50Dax Shepard?

  So I would have put Once Upon a Time after the first viewing, I would have put it in like the four or five slot. And I'm telling you, now it's number two, and it's like, the more I watch it, it's almost challenging Pulp Fiction.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 45:02Dax Shepard?

  I really need you to watch it again as quickly as you can possibly. The ending sequence in the house is the craziest 20 minutes of a movie of all time. And you'll have forgotten.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  The revisionism of it is so great. You know, it's like, "If only it turned out this way."

• 45:16Dax Shepard?

  Yes, "If only Cliff Booth had intervened."

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Well, what you're hitting on though is, I've thought a lot about this because people often ask me my favorite movies, and so I decided to make a list of my 100 favorite movies. This is a long time ago. But then I decided I have to figure out the right criteria because I'm not really a cinephile. Like, I am that I love and adore movies. But I'm not a person who can tell you everything about the French New Wave and the Italian Neorealism.

• 45:38Dax Shepard?

  You've already blown by my knowledge, by just knowing my words.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  I thought you both knew what that was.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  I'm not an erudite film person. Like, if you would talk to certain filmmakers who've watched everything.

• 45:50Dax Shepard?

  Tarantino.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Tarantino, Martin Scorsese, James Gray, these guys, they've seen everything.

• 45:55Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  I'm not that. I'm pretty mainstream taste.

• 45:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, me too.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  My favorite thing is a smart Hollywood movie. I like other things too, but I said I have to make my own criteria that is not pretending like I could be a film critic standing here telling you what the greatest film is.

• 46:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, graduate class.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  So I made it very clear to say, favorite, not best. What makes a favorite film? There are three things, and the favorite film ideally hits all three, but must hit at least one.

• 46:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  One is... The size of the impact it had on you when you first saw it. How much did it blow your mind? How transformative was it? Number two. How relevant, important, influential culturally speaking? Where does it rank among in its time, in its place? How is it? You know, how important is it? How much did it influence people on cultural, right? And the third thing is, how re-watchable is it? There's many films I love, I don't ever want to see again. I don't ever want to watch Schindler's List ever again.

• 46:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I agree. Yeah, you couldn't pay me. I loved it.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  The Godfather, Shawshank Redemption. There's movies, if they are on, I'll just watch them.

• 46:58Dax Shepard?

  Those are your criteria. Are you open to giving me, though, in genres? Could we start with what you think are a few of your favorite comedies of all time?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so I told you Annie Hall.

• 47:09Dax Shepard?

  That's number one?

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:10Dax Shepard?

  Of course, you can't take that one away.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Other Woody Allen movies on there that haven't aged as well, but that I used to love. Manhattan was one of my favorites. Now it's sort of creepy and...

• 47:19Dax Shepard?

  What happens, what's he doing that one?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Well, he's a 43-year-old. He's in love with Muriel Hemingway, who's 17.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  He actually did wind up marrying his stepdaughter. So it's like it has a kind of unsavoriness. It hasn't aged well.

• 47:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  But I did love Manhattan. I loved The In-Laws. The In-Laws is amazing. Alan Arkin and Peter Falk. It is hilarious. I love, um...

• 47:42Dax Shepard?

  Herbie Goes Bananas.

• 47:47Speaker 01

  I mean, I love Something About Mary.

• 47:48Dax Shepard?

  Mr. Bean. Something About Mary?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. How about you? What are your top comedies?

• 47:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, it is Raising Arizona. That's my pulp fiction of comedy.

• 47:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 47:56Dax Shepard?

  And then Fletch.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  One that I had the most joy in the theater watching was Airplane. Because I was exactly the right age for it. And it was just mind-blowingly hilarious.

• 48:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  I think that's the hardest I've ever laughed in a movie.

• 48:10Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  So that's the thing with Something About Mary too, which is like, I don't necessarily want to re-watch it all the time, but how hard I laughed in the theater watching it.

• 48:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, surely you can't be serious. Yes, I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley. He was great. I mean, Naked Gun, every, all of them. My third comedy would be Flirting with Disaster.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's way up there for me too.

• 48:30Dax Shepard?

  What a movie.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  It is great.

• 48:32Dax Shepard?

  That's the Ben Stiller, right? Yeah.

• 48:34Speaker 01

  That would be, that's way up there.

• 48:36Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now what about dramas?

• 48:39Speaker 01

  The Godfather movies, are they dramas? Or are they crime thrillers? I don't know, but they're dramas. One that I really adore is Ordinary People. I just find it deeply emotional. Makes me cry every time.

• 48:49Dax Shepard?

  And you can re-watch it?

• 48:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, very much so. Shawshank Redemption's way up there for me.

• 48:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Is Michael Clayton a drama or a thriller?

• 48:56Dax Shepard?

  I would put it in my drama category.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm gonna put that way up there, too.

• 48:59Dax Shepard?

  My number one drama of all time is Thief. Michael Mann's first movie.

• 49:03Speaker 01

  I adore Thief. I just re-watched it. It's pretty spectacular.

• 49:06Dax Shepard?

  I've watched that movie more than any other movie. And you know my history with this movie is I would get drunk. Bree would go to bed, I'd be kinda blackout drunk. I'd watch Heat. And then I'd get crazy and I stole a parking meter. I like went and dug up a parking meter, cause I just wanna steal it.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Really?

• 49:21Dax Shepard?

  I tried to rob 7-Eleven with a fake gun.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  For real?

• 49:25Dax Shepard?

  After watching Heat, yes. And Bree was like, "You're not allowed to watch this movie after I go to bed."

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Threw the VCR out the window.

• 49:31Dax Shepard?

  I would watch Thief. Almost every night I was hammered that she went to bed.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Oh my god, what was...

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, he used to call me and tell me about the next thing that he had. I remember going to Santa Monica and there was a fucking parking meter.

• 49:46Dax Shepard?

  In my living room?

• 49:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you couldn't get into it, of course.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 49:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that movie would make me crazy.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  Inspire this antisocial in you.

• 49:54Dax Shepard?

  Well, it was this self-righteous justified, "I didn't have anything and I'm gonna take it." It's so toxic and dangerous, but I do recognize, I was fully like, "Well, I didn't get what I deserved and now I'm gonna take it, cause fuck everyone and this is my one chance on planet Earth and I'm not gonna not experience this."

• 50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:12Dax Shepard?

  And in my mind, I was like, "I'm gonna be rich from these, like, stealing the parking meter." At the time. And the best part of me stealing the parking meter is you couldn't really pick it up, cause I took the concrete with it.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:23Dax Shepard?

  Then drug it to my apartment. If you were missing this parking meter, all you'd have to do is look in the sidewalk and I drug it all the way up to my steps and then fucking got it up my steps and then Bree comes out in the morning, I'm now passed out. And she wakes me up and she's like, "There's a parking meter in the living room."

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Did you ever break it open? Did you get the change out of it?

• 50:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh no, I would shake it. So I got a hacksaw, I cut the top off so I'd get rid of the post and the cement and then I would shake it. No, I couldn't, that thing's somewhere on planet Earth with all the change in it.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 50:52Dax Shepard?

  No, I was never successful on any of them. The 7-Eleven thing was a disaster.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  He said, "Give me your money," and the guy said, "No."

• 51:01Dax Shepard?

  Panicked and then sprinted out of the

• 51:04Dax Shepard?

  And got on my motorcycle and rode way too fast all the way home. So I'm like, well, now the police are coming. Okay, let's talk TV shows. I think that should be our last bracket.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 51:12Dax Shepard?

  What's your all time favorite TV show?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Ooh, might be Breaking Bad, or it could be Mad Men.

• 51:19Dax Shepard?

  So the newer offerings, The Sopranos in your list?

• 51:21Speaker 01

  Sopranos, they're up there, Friday Night Lights, Thirty Something. Those are the ones jumping right out. Of course, can't be objective about Parenthood, but would hope it's up there somewhere. Maybe it's one of my favorites.

• 51:33Dax Shepard?

  I think people will get a kick out of this. You and I were in the pool the other day and we were like trying to understand whether or not Parenthood was as good as Friday Night Lights. Because Jason Cadham, same creator, same showrunner. And we had many cast members from Friday Night Lights on Parenthood. And we would always, or I would always gush about Friday Night Lights. Like, well, you were on the best Cadham show ever. And they often said, no, Parenthood's better.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, Minka said that, right?

• 51:59Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm. And I thought, yeah, I guess you can only know so much about the show you're inside of. I asked Pitt that when I interviewed him. I asked Brad Pitt, is the only bummer about being in these Tarantino movies is you can't actually watch the Tarantino movies

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:12Dax Shepard?

  without it being very skewed. And he said, there's no bad part about being in a Tarantino movie.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  That's awesome. That is awesome.

• 52:21Dax Shepard?

  And then I couldn't hear anything else he said.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  You're just like, I love you.

• 52:24Dax Shepard?

  I love him so much. It's very fun to love a man.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. He knows how you feel about him?

• 52:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think it's pretty obvious. We even talked about in the interview that I have two versions of him. I have this person I know, which is just a person. But I very much hold Brad Pitt on screen as this other person that I'm in love with and obsessed with.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Does he embrace that duality or recognize it?

• 52:46Dax Shepard?

  I asked him if he could relate to that and he said, for sure. First started with Redford, and then he said, you know, who's really like that for me is Sean Penn. Which is like, he'll always be Sean Penn.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:56Dax Shepard?

  And yet I know him and we're friends.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:59Dax Shepard?

  And I'm like, yeah, I have that with Downey. Robert Downey is still this angel that fell out of the sky. And he's a dude I know.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they can coexist. Lastly, as we're parked, we've kind of talked about this loosely. I think people who did love Parenthood would know, like, would we ever do that again?

• 53:17Speaker 01

  I think Jason would be down. I've talked to him about it.

• 53:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh, really?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  He would have to figure out a way to do it that wasn't just. Well, it wouldn't be a repetition, but what's a fresh take on it? Would you want to be part of something like that?

• 53:28Dax Shepard?

  I would want to be on a set with you again for some years.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:32Dax Shepard?

  That sounds really fun.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  Well, let's make that.

• 53:34Dax Shepard?

  That would actually just be the priority.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Let's make that happen.

• 53:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you have to consider the notion of it's kind of like going back to high school. And that would be tragic, because if we went back.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  You don't want it to be the high school reunion where you're like, oh my god, everybody looks not that great.

• 53:48Dax Shepard?

  We go back and that magic that I just cherish is not there for whatever reason.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:53Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's numerous reasons that could be. You're doing all your own stuff, I've quit acting. There's a lot of reasons it could go sideways. When I found out, I had to work more than three days a week.

• 54:04Dax Shepard?

  That could backfire. Well, I love you to death. I'm really glad that you came on.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  This is a thrill and fun to be a witness to the beautiful friendship and love that you guys have for each other. I'm so happy to get to meet you finally. You too, Aaron. I've heard so much about you for a long time.

• 54:16Dax Shepard?

  Sweet boy crew.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Vulner boys.

• 54:19Dax Shepard?

  Vulner boys.