Autonomous Worlds | Lattice’s Justin Glibert

In today’s episode, we’re exploring the frontier of onchain universes, on Ethereum. Autonomous Worlds is the new frontier of digital onchain universes, being pioneered by the Lattice team, of which Justin Glibert on the show today is the co-founder and CEO. Ethereum is not just a financial computer, but a root of state for an infinite number of universes, all with their own laws of physics, objects, players, agents, and state… and, like our universe, still continues with, or without, our presence. Justin walks us through the evolution of Autonomous Worlds. Get ready because you're going to get a taste of where the Internet has always been pointing towards… it just took us a while to get here. ------ 📣Bankless Premium | Use Code "FEED10" https://bankless.cc/FEED10 ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: 🐙KRAKEN | MOST-TRUSTED CRYPTO EXCHANGE https://k.xyz/bankless-pod-q2 🔗CELO | CEL2 COMING SOON https://bankless.cc/Celo ⚖️ARBITRUM | SCALING ETHEREUM ⁠https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum https://feeds.flightcast.com/%E2%81%A0https:/bankless.cc/Arbitrum 🛞MANTLE | MODULAR LAYER 2 NETWORK https://bankless.cc/Mantle 🏠 CASA | SECURE YOUR GENERATIONAL WEALTH https://bankless.cc/Casa 🗣️TOKU | CRYPTO EMPLOYMENT SOLUTION https://bankless.cc/toku 🌐 CARTESI | APPLY FOR A GRANT https://bankless.cc/CartesiGovernance ------ TIMESTAMPS 0:00 Intro 2:36 Scope of Lattice 7:18 Different Affordances of Ethereum 14:21 Dark Forest 23:51 After Dark Forest 29:32 Writing Code in Assembly & Abstraction 32:42 Lattice 35:58 Games Being Built Today 43:21 Justin’s Thoughts on the “Metaverse” 51:05 Rollup & Die 55:28 Lattice’s Layer 2 1:00:13 The Future of Games 1:04:56 Onchain Native GDP 1:08:17 Closing & Disclaimers ------ RESOURCES Lattice https://twitter.com/latticexyz https://lattice.xyz/ 0xParc https://twitter.com/0xPARC https://0xparc.org/ Justin’s Twitter https://twitter.com/justinglibert ------ Not financial or tax advice. See our investment disclosures here: https://www.bankless.com/disclosures ⁠

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00David Hoffman?

  Hey Bankless Nation, today on the podcast, we are releasing an episode from the premium feed, so you can get a taste of what kind of content we release exclusively for Bankless citizens. We keep the Bankless podcast feed full of highly accessible, generalized content, and then we put all of our research frontier-level content for the premium feed, for those who want to go down a deeper rabbit hole. As a reminder, the premium feed is ad-free, and it has all the normal podcasts that you also get on the normal podcast feed, just without the ads. So if you want access to the Bankless Premium RSS feed, you can sign up with FEED10 for 10% off, and there is a link in the show notes to get started. And if you really want to complete the experience, you can hop in the Bankless Citizens Discord for a post-episode discussion with all of our other Bankless citizens who are also on the journey west. So now that you know all of that, let's go ahead and get right into the episode.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  What's the final stage of any civilization? Right? It's probably to create a universe. It's like the final thing you do. You know, you're like, okay, we've explored the universe, we've conquered the stars, we can use all the energy. So now the final thing we'll do is we'll create a universe, you know, and we'll let that universe do whatever it wants. And I think the thing that's interesting with all of this cryptography stuff, distributed system and all of that is we're going towards this idea of like, hey, we're going to be able to create a universe that is real. You know, it's like truly objective. But it's interesting because it goes toward that agenda of like the final stage of civilization, which is let's create a universe that goes beyond us.

• 1:25David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of internet money and internet finance. And today on Bankless, we are exploring the frontier of on-chain universes on Ethereum, which is actually a real frontier. Space is the final frontier of physics and matter, but autonomous worlds are the new frontier of digital on-chain universes, being pioneered by the Lattice team, of which Justin is a co-founder of, and he is on the show today. You might have heard of fully on-chain games or autonomous worlds. Bankless Nation, I think this frontier of crypto is so big and expansive that when it's finally ready for production, it will represent the next wave of crypto development. In my opinion, this is not just something that Ethereum is good at, but it's actually

• 2:07David Hoffman?

  Ethereum's main story arc, its actual main quest line for what Ethereum is bringing to the world. Ethereum is not just a financial computer, but it's a state root for an infinite number of universes, all with their own physics, objects, players, agents, and state. And like our universe, they still continue on with or without our presence. Dare I say, the actual, real metaverse. Justin from Lattice is going to walk us through the evolution of autonomous worlds, starting with their accidental discovery with this experimental game that we all played in Ethereum called Dark Forest back in 2020, to where we are today with Lattice's software package for building autonomous worlds, and the current set of fully on-chain games that are available

• 2:52David Hoffman?

  to play right now, to where this is going, which is an infinite landscape of internet universes, on-chain economies, and endless possibilities. On this episode of Bankless, Bankless Nation, you are going to get a taste of where the internet has always been pointing towards. It just took us a while to get here. So, let's go ahead and get right into the episode with Justin from Lattice. But first, a moment to talk about some of these fantastic sponsors that make this show possible, like Kraken, our preferred crypto exchange for getting into the future world of on-chain universes. If you do not have a Kraken account, consider clicking the link in the show notes, getting started with Kraken today. If you want a crypto trading experience backed by world-class security and award-winning support teams, then head over to Kraken, one of the longest-standing and most secure crypto platforms in the world.

• 3:36David Hoffman?

  Kraken is on a journey to build a more accessible, inclusive, and fair financial system, making it simple and secure for everyone, everywhere, to trade crypto. Kraken's intuitive trading tools are designed to grow with you, empowering you to make your first or your hundredth trade in just a few clicks. And there's an award-winning client support team available 24/7 to help you along the way, along with a whole range of educational guides, articles, and videos, with products and features like Kraken. Pro and Kraken NFT Marketplace and a seamless app to bring it all together. It's really the perfect place to get your complete crypto experience. So check out the simple, secure and powerful way for everyone to trade crypto. Whether you're a complete beginner or a seasoned pro. Go to kraken.com slash bankless to see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss.

• 4:18David Hoffman?

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• 5:01David Hoffman?

  Head over to Cartesi's grant application page to apply today. And if you're not a developer, those with staked CTSI can take part in the governance process and vote on whether or not a proposal should be funded. Make sure you're vote ready by staking your CTSI before the votes open. Cello is the mobile-first, EVM-compatible, carbon-negative blockchain built for the real world, driving real-world use cases like mobile payments and mobile DeFi. And with Opera Mini Pay as one of the fastest-growing Web3 wallets, Cello is seeing a meteoric rise with over 300 million transactions and 1.5 million monthly active addresses. And now Cello is looking to come home to Ethereum as a Layer 2. Optimism, Polygon, Matter Labs and Arbitrum have all thrown their hats in the ring for the Cello Layer 2 to build upon their stacks. Why the competition?

• 5:45David Hoffman?

  The Cello Layer 2 will bring huge advantages like a decentralized sequencer, off-chain data availability secured by Ethereum validators and one-block finality. What does that all mean for you? With Cello Layer 2, gas fees will stay low and you can even pay for gas natively using ERC20 tokens, sending crypto to phone numbers across wallets using social connect. But Cello is a community governed protocol. This means that Cello needs you to weigh in and make your voice heard. Join the conversation in the Cello forums. Follow Cello on Twitter and visit cello.org to shape the future of Ethereum. Bankless Nation, I'm happy to introduce to you Justin Glibert, who is the co-founder of Lattice. Justin, welcome to the show.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Hey David, thanks for having me.

• 6:24David Hoffman?

  I think Lattice and what you guys are doing over there is probably got a pretty strong cult following of enthusiasts, but it might not be pretty familiar with the general Bankless audience. So can you just at a high level explain what you guys are doing over at Lattice? Like what is your guys' scope?

• 6:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the scope is to make on-chain games real. So I feel like our origin stems all the way back to good old Dog Forest. If people here remember, that was a few years ago. I worked on it very briefly. Should not get any credit for it. I was not there at the beginning, but I got my interest spiked. I stayed with the people who were working on it in Mexico. And the thing that really blew my mind immediately is like, huh? Why are we not making more things like this? You know, like we have this cool multiplayer open computer and you can kind of do whatever you want on it, but we just kind of stop short most of the time. You know, I don't know if you remember early Ethereum ideas like, oh, there will be a full node in your lock in your house and you'll be able to like rent it by the second. Like that was wild times.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  There were a lot of ideas like this. Now we're kind of away from that, but I think one thing that remained true is that as long as people didn't take the post-financialization idea seriously. So the idea of like, hey, we'll do more than finance on this world computer. They would just not build the ideas and the tools for it. So where we got started is it was just a hacker group. Me and a bunch of other people trying to build this game. It was first called ZK Dungeon and then called Amber. And the idea was like, hey, let's just build something kind of like Dog Forest. You know, a different type of game, also using zero knowledge proof. We didn't realize at that time that the ZK proof are not the important part. The important part is that you have this kind of like open game, open environment that runs entirely on Ethereum.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  So we started from hacker group and then we kind of grew. I think people really started to like get a sense of what we were doing about a year and a half ago when we did OP Craft, which was like a fully on-chain Minecraft clone. It's about the same time as when optimism kind of like...

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Brandon, the OP stack, you know, we were basically the first group that forked their new update, Bedrock, to make our own chain. And then we kind of like met each other in person in New York. And they were like, wait a minute, that's a, that's pretty interesting. So we kind of like did OP craft. They were like, well, you know, there's this OP stack thing. We kind of like announced it together. And essentially, as we, we kept going on that journey, there are two very big parallel paths we went on. One is like, let's make the technology real. So we first build games and then we were like, okay, these games are really hard to build because the tooling is not there. So we built this thing called Mud. It's an open source framework for making on-chain games. Many, many, many games today use it from one-person team to kind of like big studios. And the other path we took was let's legitimize the idea.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Let's like talk about it with, um, with an open mind, right? So like one thing we keep saying when we were doing these small meetups is don't worry about the gas, don't worry about making money. And it was like, always like where we're starting from, you know, just, let's just try to make interesting things.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  There was an essay that got published, uh, I think two summers ago called Autonomous Worlds. That came from like our, our little, our little group that was a, that kind of like coined, um, a term for people to rally around. We organized a bunch of conferences at DEF CON twice. So yeah, we took these two paths, kind of got together. Um, and now it's really exciting because looking back two years, there's a pretty interesting ecosystem of people, you know, like big and small building things seriously. And I think we've finally reached the stage where there's enough people believing that it can be real, that if we probably like all disappear tomorrow, like all of Lattice, it will continue. So that's the one thing I'm like really proud about is the buzz factor of on-chain games

• 10:13Speaker 01

  went up by quite a bit. So sorry, that was not as short as an introduction as I would have liked it to be, but we traced it back a little bit.

• 10:20David Hoffman?

  Yeah, I think that gives listeners a snapshot of kind of the tone or the vibe of where we're going here. I think there's two potential versions of what this conversation could be. And there's one that I very much want it to be. And one potential version is we could just explain what games you guys are building at Lattice, why the games are different, why they're unique and what properties that they have. But I think there's a higher, more elevated version of this conversation that I want to get to, which is explaining the rabbit hole that is autonomous worlds, like getting people pilled on autonomous worlds, which I think is an idea that is beyond Lattice. I think if we re-rolled the idea of Ethereum, you would see Ethereum be born and then you would see people arrive at like, "Oh, you can build these things called autonomous worlds."

• 11:05David Hoffman?

  And that would be rediscovered in every single resimulation of humanity discovering Ethereum. And so I want to like kind of actually step back and approach this conversation from first principles. You kind of alluded to this a little bit in the introduction. But like, I think the first time I ever heard you pitch this, you were talking about like, well, we invented Bitcoin and Bitcoin became internet gold. So that was like a monetary evolution. Ethereum was invented and became an internet financial system. And so now that's a financial evolution. But I think you also have a different vision beyond just like the financial side of what Ethereum really does. Like Chris Dixon has popularized crypto as like you're adding own onto read, write, own onto the internet.

• 11:47David Hoffman?

  But I think you have a different take about like what really, what are the properties of Ethereum and what that really enables? And maybe we can start this conversation there with, what is that alternative viewpoint about the affordances of Ethereum and what it can bring to the world?

• 12:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think the challenge here is not to go too philosophical too quickly because that's one thing I'm-

• 12:09David Hoffman?

  We'll get there at the end, yeah.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sadly too good at this. So feel free to interrupt and bring me back to earth whenever that kicks in. But, so I would say,

• 12:20Speaker 01

  one way to think about this whole thing is that-

• 12:26Speaker 01

  We're adding a new dimension to digital things, digital objects, basically. It's like there is, we've been like since we, we got computers going, actually since we, since we have math, you know, like with math, we're able to kind of like create these objects that exist in our head. And my math objects are the same as yours, they can actually like interoperate with each other, but we can't touch them. But it still have rules, right? Like I can write a paper and you can then understand it. And we don't even have to talk with each other. That's still like kind of like a mind blowing things about math is that math spans a whole universe of stuff. The problem with math though is that it's not really multiplayer yet, right? Like you can't really know like what, what kind of like math equations people have in their head or all of that.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  It's still on, it's still really in between single player and multiplayer, even if it's like fully kind of like outside our physical realm. And so the thing that's interesting with computers is as soon as we started networking them, we, we kind of like start being able to, to have these like entirely non-physical realities that are not just subjective anymore, you know, like things like money, like from capitalism, like religion, nation states and all of that. In the book Sapiens, the kind of like, the author refers to them as inter-subjective realities. So they're real, they're realities, but they're still kind of subjective because, I mean, you and I can love humanity in very different way, it's still pretty subjective, even if it's kind of like a shared context between the two of us.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  And the thing with computers is we can kind of start going towards this idea of like inter-objective realities. So we have these realities that are not physical, but they're way more objective now, like you and I can log into World of Warcraft. And it's like a very tangible reality, like there is no arguing around like, did we, did we kill this like level 50 boss or not? It's just we either did or we didn't, right?

• 14:10David Hoffman?

  And not just that, there's actually like a geometry to the space, like there's coordinates in the game, there's structures, there's visual structures, right? Maybe there's not matter there, but it's just close enough to the point where like that does feel like a real space.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  And the thing that's interesting is, I would say, it might be close enough or maybe it's not, like can we get to digital matter? You know, when people talk about digital matter, all of that stuff, they always think about the input-output. It's like, how does our body experience it? So it's like, oh, let's put like really great VR headsets or let's smell the thing you would smell in a reality. But actually it seems that. The the input output of the realities, one way we perceive it as more real. But another thing is like, does it have consequences? Right? Does the does the these inter objective realities have consequences? And one thing you see with with like video games that you see as well with crypto, even the financial version is we now have these completely digital system.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  They have very serious consequences, right? In crypto, it's a lot of like, well, get rich, get poor, get hacked, you know? And in video games, it's go to jail, you know? That's like the really, really bad outcome. But in video games, like if you start investing enough time and also it's a relationship with other people. You know, it's not just a single player experiences like me and my friends or my foes have like spent a long time getting to this point. These realities have consequences, right? On your mood, on what you'll spend your time on. And the thing that's interesting is it seems that crypto or like blockchains in general enables us to make these inter objective realities more and more objective to a stage where we could have a world and it doesn't have to look like this world, you know? Doesn't have, it doesn't need X, Y, Z coordinate.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  I would say, actually, I sometimes say that Ethereum is like still the most crazy MMO out there. But it's really an MMO, you know? You have like all of the classes that like participate in this computer and they all have like very different game they're playing. And this network kind of like defines the rule of this reality. But it's still kind of like still a little bit too loose. It's very much like, oh, programmers can do whatever they want. The only real physics is that there is this currency. And so approaching it from that perspective, it seems that these these these kind of like crypto system go towards the the possibility of making these digital realities like more and more real to a point where in the autonomous worlds essay, they're described as like they could be like Mars.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Like you and I know that Mars is real, you know? There is like a Kerostier over there, but how often do you see Mars? No, you don't see it like unless you have special instruments, but we all kind of agree it's real because when you use the instruments, you see the same thing. The same way like I don't run a node, an Ethereum node, maybe you do. I don't know how often you check it. But like the whole ecosystem like believes these things are real because if we use the same instruments, we kind of get to the same result, right? Um, Mars doesn't care if you don't like it. It's going to keep executing its role, you know, like the constant of gravity, you know, like curiosity rover. Even if NASA really doesn't want it to stop, like the little nuclear battery inside is going to stop working at some point. And it's the equivalent here, like we can take these digital realities and make them more and more objective.

• 17:20Speaker 01

  To a point where like, okay, actually there is no one that can stop them. There is no one that can break the rules. And now it's time to get real, you know, because the consequences are very serious. Um, with crypto, with Bitcoin, we saw it that the financial consequences are serious. But I think we can extend this seriousness to whatever rules that we want. It doesn't have to be money. And I think that was the thing that we got to, which is, oh, okay. Fundamentally, these are tools to make realities way more objective over time. And I mean, it was pretty ballsy to have money as your first use case. It was like, okay, out of all of the things you could make more real, which one should we start with? It's like, let's start with like one of the most important thing in like this, this kind of like reality we live in, which is capitalism. But you can very much apply this to anything. So I'd say we can start with that.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Let me know, like, if there's something you would like to go deeper into.

• 18:09David Hoffman?

  Yeah, right. And really just to remind listeners about um, the, the conversation thus far is we're talking about different ways to perceive Ethereum, right? Which is typically perceived as like a revolution in money and finance. And I think what you are offering is like, well, there's a different way to perceive Ethereum as like there, there's a universe out there called the universe of Ethereum. Uh, and it has, has state in the same way that like the real world has state and there are objects in Ethereum. Just like there are objects in the real world. Uh, and, and we're starting to like flesh out this like structure of this world. Uh, but just it's very like right now, primitive. It's just like a bunch of financial apps and financial tokens and financial use cases. And then now maybe.

• 18:52David Hoffman?

  We're starting to get into like some social stuff, but I think you have a very clear like direction of where this goes. I want to actually go just to really make this really clear for listeners. Lattice maybe is accidentally sometimes called like a gaming company, like a fully on-chain gaming company. Maybe you guys are, but like, maybe we can actually kind of like narrow the scope of the conversation, talk about lattice, the gaming company, right? Just from that perspective. So like, you talked about this game Dark Forest. I don't, I'm gonna guess that most listeners are actually not familiar with Dark Forest. So maybe you can talk about like lattice as the gaming company and then we'll kind of expand back into like the more higher level stuff after that.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. So the TLDR on Dark Forest is, so many people were involved in Dark Forest. Originally, the original founder of Dark Forest is Goob Sheep, who kind of like put the first version together, got the people to work on it. He wrote an essay called "The Strongest Crypto Gaming Thesis", which really got like on-chain games going. At that time, people didn't really know why non-chain games would be like a good idea, but he really like kind of put it down in very clear terms, or at least the first version on these terms. And what Dark Forest was is, there were games on Ethereum before, right? I don't know, maybe you remember FOMO 3D. We can also explain what FOMO 3D was.

• 20:11David Hoffman?

  I've referenced FOMO 3D a number of times on the podcast. It's basically, well, it's also, it's a money game, right? It's a Ponzi game. It's specifically a specific economic game, but it is meant to be a game.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. It is meant to be a game. And there are rules and there are no hacks. Like, the person that won respected the rules. Everybody was like, well, you cheated. But no, these were the rules of the game and you won, right? So Dark Forest was probably not the first game, but it was the first game that was like, okay, let's just treat Ethereum as a computer, not as a programmable bank. And the idea was like, okay.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  We have, we want to be able to make a game where the universe, which could just be kind of like a map, you know, it's like a two day map. Imagine Google Maps, you know? And the universe is so simplified that it's just points of interest. So imagine there is you, there's your house, my house, there's the bakery. And all these three things exist. I cannot be between my house and your house. There's only three places where things can be and we can send kind of like people and energy between these places. So that's really the premise of the game. There's a bunch of points of interest on the map. And here's a bunch of interesting things. First, the map is infinite. It's procedurally generated. So it's like in Minecraft, you know, you can kind of keep expanding the map. It respects some rules. But the one thing that is interesting is you don't know what the map looks like when you start playing the game.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And that might be a bit strange to people that know a little bit how blockchains work, because the point is everything is kind of like supposed to be public, right? And now, you know, people talk about more about cryptography, zero knowledge proofs and all that. But at the time, it was, it was very niche. And one of the key innovation of Dark Force was to say, the map is the same for everybody. But when you start playing the game, you don't know what the map is. And the only way to explore the map is to do proof of work. Kind of like Bitcoin, you know, you have to spend computational resource to remove the fog of war. You can either do it around you, because that's useful, you know, if I start in this universe, I kind of want to know what's around me, because...

• 22:04David Hoffman?

  Yeah, so, so listeners think like a StarCraft or like a game where like you, you start out, but like the map is unknown to you because you literally haven't explored it yet. So you only know what's in your like local.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And it's a, it's a little bit like Solaris or something like that. There are just planets in space and you start on a tiny planet, basically.

• 22:20David Hoffman?

  Right.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And you can either explore around you using your computational power to explore around you, or you can explore wherever you want. But the thing is, if you start exploring pretty far, but you know, you don't even know if there are people there, right? You're just kind of like guessing. And the, the key innovation is that you were able to use zero knowledge proof to essentially prove to the game, which was a smart contract, that the move you're making is valid. That is, hey, I'm moving between my planet and another planet and it's not that far. Without revealing where the planets are. So the really mental experience you would have is you could go on a block explorer or like write a tool and you could see that there's all this activity in the universe. And you can see the strength of the planet and the forces being moved. So you could see like this like player just moved 10 million forces from that planet to

• 23:05Speaker 01

  that planet, but you have no idea where it is. So the reason it was called Dark, it's called Dark Forest is because it's based on the second book of the Three Body Problem trilogy. I mean, that is not way more popular.

• 23:13David Hoffman?

  I actually have it, I literally have it right here because I use it to stabilize my monitor.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Show it on camera. Yeah, exactly. That's your new book. And, and I don't want to spoil the book because I guess now many, many people are going to want to know the story, given it's on Netflix. But one key thing in Dark Forest is the idea that the universe is dark and you don't know what's going on there, right? So that was the feeling that was trying to be created. You don't know what's going on in the universe. You can move between these planets. The fun side effect of this though is because all, all the game was written on smart contracts. And the reason it was written on smart contracts, the, the legend says is because Gup, Sheep and Co. had never really written anything else. You know, they were like, oh, we're just going to use smart contracts because we, we are at these Ethereum workshops and it seems like the right thing to do, you know, let's put it on smart contracts. But a side effect of that was that now people were able to build stuff on top of the game.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  So famously, like in Dark Forest, um, there were no marketplaces, there were no alliances. There was, it was really bare bone. It was just the rules of the universe. You can move, you can increase your energy, you can build defenses on your planets. And players built everything else. You know, they forked the client, they started adding stuff like, oh, here's a marketplace. We are adding some smart contracts to the game. My favorite one is people build an autonomous alliance. So there is, and because Dark Forest still exists today, like it's smart contract on Nosis Chain, used to be X-Die. Um, the creators can't kill it. That's one other thing that is interesting with Dark Forest is the game can never stop. It will run forever. And there is still today, this, this kind of like player in the game that is not a human player, it's a smart contract player.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  And you can kind of like, it has a score, it has an army, etc. It's almost like an autonomous NPC that players have added to the game. So you can start, like, as you start kind of like reading about Dark Forest or playing it, you get to the realization that like, huh, it's not a bug that the developers only put the rules of the game and they didn't build anything on top of it. It's a feature. They made a gift to all of us of the rules of the universe. And then they're like, good luck, go build stuff on top and figure it out. And that was really the thing that blew my mind because it was like, oh, okay, we have this inter- inter-objective reality. Gup, Sheep and Co. have defined what the physics is, what the rules of the universe is. But now all of us can interact with it.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  The same way like NASA can send a rover to Mars, but if you and I team up together, maybe in 20 years, we can be there as well. And we don't need permission from anyone and we can kind of kind of stroll around respecting the same rules. So that's Dark Forest. That's where it all started.

• 25:40David Hoffman?

  Can I pause and we, we, let's like do some bullets about like really the impactful points about that story that I want to make sure that listeners captured. Um, one is that the state of the Dark Forest universe is fully on-chain. You said it was like-

• 25:53Speaker 01

  No servers.

• 25:54David Hoffman?

  No servers, right? This server is Ethereum. It's a procedurally generated universe and there's different planets. And because of the leveraging of cryptography, CK proofs, you as a player of the game, you would literally go to like the Dark Forest website. You would be dropped into this universe, interacting with this smart contract. And you would actually only know the state, just like how like when you are born, you are only aware of your local environments. Like you don't know what's on the other side of the earth. Uh, so you're dropped into this universe and you only know the, um, the, what's around you, which is mimics reality. Uh, and so you can start to explore this world, uh, but you aren't actually disclosing your information to other players because of the power of zero knowledge cryptography.

• 26:37David Hoffman?

  And so this very minimal rule set and this, these things, these properties that mimic real life, started to produce this immersion behavior. And like you said, it's on XDI, um, uh, which is a sidechain to Ethereum. So in theory, this thing doesn't ever die. It's a, like, no, it's, what is Ethereum for? Unstoppable code. What was Dark Forest? It was just code on Ethereum. And so we have this like universe that's created that mimics some properties of the actual real universe that we inhabit, except it exists with all of its logic on-chain on Ethereum and just perpetuates because it doesn't know not to.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's brilliant. And I would say one more thing, which is that, just like this universe, all of us can engineer and do science in it. In Darkforest, anyone can engineer and do science in Darkforest. You know, you can all go and participate in this rule set because the point is the computer is open. You know, open to anyone, to anything. AIs and humans alike. AIs are not discriminated in Darkforest. They're first-class citizens, just like humans.

• 27:38David Hoffman?

  Right, okay. So this, I think Darkforest really opened up, like exploded. It was the Big Bang of autonomous worlds. Like, people are realizing the properties of these things, like after the fact that they're created. And so like, where does the story go from here?

• 27:55Speaker 01

  So the story goes, after Darkforest, nobody really gives a shit. So people really are like, wow, Darkforest is really good. And people are like, wow, man, like, we really want more Darkforest rounds, but it kind of stopped there, you know? And so one thing to know about Darkforest is it was a tremendous effort to make Darkforest happen, right? Like, this was, Darkforest was at the time like a truly insane project. I remember the people that were running XDi were telling us like, hey, we have to spend like a hundred thousand dollars a month just in nodes to be able to serve the RPC request to the users. Because most things out there, you know, you'll send like one request to get the price of the pool and another one to send a transaction.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  When you play Darkforest, you're just, you're just like plugged into the blockchain. Your brain is plugged into the blockchain as you interact with it, right? So first, like, from infrastructure perspectives, things were not ready. Second, blockchains from a latency perspective have not been optimized for that kind of stuff, right? So Darkforest had to be built in such a way that it was not a pain in the butt to like make a transaction every 12 seconds, right? Third, the amount of tooling you need to make something like, there was no tooling for Darkforest, right? So Darkforest is this like, super crazy, complex, spaghetti code app. And I remember every single time like we wanted to add a new feature, it was like excruciatingly hard because, once again,

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Ethereum application, the tooling is not there to add things to them, to manage a large amount of state. Usually the state is very minimal. People actually try to have the least states possible because you pay for it, right? Whereas here, Darkforest was kind of like a maxi project. It's like, let's just have as much state as we want. So it was really difficult.

• 29:30David Hoffman?

  It was building under an assumption of a complete abundance of block space.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Complete abundance of block space, low latency, etc. So it kind of stopped there. And

• 29:41Speaker 01

  When me and Alvarez, the co-founders of Lattice, the two of us kind of like ended up a summer with the DarkFres founders. And we're like, let's try to build another game like this. Let's just see what it takes.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  It was so hard. I don't know if you know, do you know the game Dungeon Keeper? It's like an old kind of like, so Dungeon Keeper is an old game from Peter Molyneux. But the idea is you're like an evil kind of like dungeon, dungeon master. And you have to like start digging underground, recruit goblins to kind of like take care of your dungeon. And inevitably, you'll either meet some heroes underground or other people's dungeon. And now it's a war, you know, and you kind of like grow underground. And our idea was let's use the same technology as DarkFres to also have this underground world. Where we start somewhere, you don't know what's around you and you have to dig. You dig in this tunnel, you try to find some gold, you expand your resources. And at some point, you might inevitably dig into someone else's dungeon. And that's when all hills break loose. So that was our idea. We built it for like a year, actually.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  It was built just like, it was, it was a big project. And we realized after, after one year of building is it wasn't fun. We're like, this game is not fun. It's just like not fun playing. And, and we looked back and went, was there any way to know? Like, how could we have done this like iterative approach? And turns out there was no way to iterate because any change was taking months and months and months to just implement. Right? So there was really this massive problem. It's kind of like computers a long time ago, like before Linux, before operating systems, before libraries, before all of that stuff. Computers were batch processing systems. They were actually mostly used in banks and in government, kind of like reminiscent of early Ethereum from, from that perspective.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  And, and there were batch processing machines that were not interactive, you know, like, like, yes, the computers, the IBM kind of computers back in the days. And your MacBook are very similar from like, like from a, it's the same system. It's just much better from a developer perspective and user perspective. And it really felt like that at a time. I mean, it was getting better. It was still pre kind of like roll up scaling and all of that. At that time, like we thought we would have to run our own side chain. That, that, that was where we were at. But specifically like.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  The way we talk about it at Lattice is that Ethereum, still today, actually, if you don't take MUD into account, and we can talk about MUD later, but you still program Ethereum bare metal. So bare metal, what this means is you have a computer, you just write some code and the code just runs on the computer. No operating system, nothing. That means you have to manage your own memory. You have to manage your own storage. You can't upgrade things. You have no databases and all of that. And that's really what Ethereum was like at that time, right? We just had to build this thing bare metal. And so maybe this is a good transition point because after this Dungeon Keeper game, we thought, okay, what would it look like to build a framework for on-chain games? It wasn't, we were not that sophisticated in our thinking yet. But what this led us to over like a year was this realization that like,

• 32:33Speaker 01

  huh, why did people build Linux? I mean, even before that, there were other operating systems. But why are there operating systems? You know, why can't just people write everything bare metal? Well, it turns out when you have multiple applications that need to kind of like, need to be added on top of each other, they need standards to talk with each other, they need to be upgraded, you know, you have things like databases. Today, if you write a website, you don't take the user state and you put it on the disk and you write the code to put on the disk. No, you use Postgres or MySQL or something like that. You, you let the people with a much longer beard than you take care of storing data and kind of like having it around for the next 10 years. So we, we thought about it from our perspective, we're like, huh. Okay, so the reason why there is no framework for building Ethereum application, the reason why there is no operating system for Ethereum is because the apps that are on Ethereum are so primitive

• 33:18Speaker 01

  and they're so like, kind of like mindful of cost that you don't want an operating system. You know, like today, it's actually glorified for people to go write their code in assembly. Like you go on Twitter and you go check out the, the cool solidity kits. They're like, I'm just gonna write my ERC20 in assembly because that's true craft skills, kind of like Ethereum programming. And that's really interesting.

• 33:38David Hoffman?

  For people like me who don't code, can you like unpack that take for me? Cause I actually don't understand that.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  So there is different kind of like levels of abstraction when trying to explain something to computer for it to do it. And the lowest level of the computer is tiny instructions for the CPU. That's called assembly, right? And so you can write this by hand. That's what people were doing before. We went to the moon. I mean, not me, I'm not American, but I'll leave it to the Americans.

• 34:02David Hoffman?

  We as humanity, yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  We as humanity. Humanity went to the moon just with assembly, like the whole like lander and all that was written in assembly by hands, by people. But

• 34:12David Hoffman?

  So you're skipping over every single layer of abstraction, writing it straight to getting really close to the metal.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. Machine code, machine code.

• 34:19David Hoffman?

  And the benefits of this, at least in the DeFi context, is that your contracts are really gas efficient?

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the idea is a lot of people distrust the Solidity compiler, being like, I'm smarter than the Solidity compiler. Because what the Solidity compiler does is you write some code and it turns that into machine code, right?

• 34:35David Hoffman?

  Right, right, right.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  But every single time you do things

• 34:37David Hoffman?

  There could be bugs or errors or whatever.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then also, it's just like way harder. It's just gonna take you like 100 hours to make the most basic thing in many ways. So you have these layers of abstraction, right? The first one is the introduction of a programming language. That's a big job, you know, from assembly to a programming language. But in computing, the trick we keep pulling is you just keep adding layers of abstraction to make it easy for people to build things. On like, we're in this app right now, Riverside, you want to count the layers of abstraction. So there is your MacBook and it runs a kernel in assembly. And then that kernel runs macOS. And in macOS, you have a bunch of programs running and I'm using ARC right now. It's a Chrome fork. It runs a browser and then that browser runs some JavaScript that then runs Riverside. You know,

• 35:21Speaker 01

  that's this many layers of abstraction. And what does this give us? Like, why don't the Riverside people are like, we're gonna write Riverside in assembly and we're gonna ship it to you on a DVD that you're gonna have to put in your computer and like boot it? Well, the reason they don't do that is because the browser is a distribution mechanism. It's secure, so people can run untrusted code. You have all of these layers of abstraction. The problem is the cost, right? Like, things that run in the browser are like a million times slower than if you run them on your computer. The reason we don't care is because computers are a billion times faster than they were 10 years ago, probably a trillion times faster. The problem is Ethereum didn't get faster for like six years. So people were like in a massive scarcity mindset. They were like, oh my God, we're just gonna keep getting more users and Ethereum is not gonna get faster. So instead of

• 36:04Speaker 01

  Climbing the computer science abstraction layer of abstraction, you know, which is what people do, what people have done in the computing industry. They kind of stayed in caveman mode. And caveman mode is like, let's, let's just do everything in assembly. Let's try to fit as many apps as possible. But now we're in a completely different world, you know? We have layer twos, we have all of this scaling stuff. But all of the paradigm for programming and for people thinking about these programs has not caught up yet to the abundance. And that's, I think, a really interesting thing.

• 36:33David Hoffman?

  Okay. And I think that starts to get into like, why, what is Lattice and what is it doing? So I'm going to go ahead and guess that Lattice is some level of abstraction for building fully on-chain games on-chain.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yes, yes. And we think that one of the big gift we're going to make to the Ethereum ecosystem is that all the stuff that we're building for on-chain games, it's secretly for anything. There's nothing that we're putting in our toolkit that is specific to games. It's just for any apps that is sufficiently complex. So.

• 37:05David Hoffman?

  Gaming is a really good first use case to be a very complex use case.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  And we care about it a lot, right? Because if we kind of like backtrack to a little bit of a philosophy interlude we did at the beginning, what we want is we want to add more verbs to Ethereum. You know, Chris Dixon says Brock Shanes adds the own verb to the internet. And we think that's like a tremendous level up when it comes to how objective digital realities are, because now, you know, there's money, there is ownership. But we're like, let's add all the other verbs. You know, there's like so many others left. So that's what we're doing, starting from play.

• 37:42David Hoffman?

  Mantle, formerly known as BitDAO, is the first DAO-led Web3 ecosystem, all built on top of Mantle's first core product, the Mantle Network, a brand-new, high-performance Ethereum Layer 2 built using the OP stack, but uses Eigenlayer's data availability solution instead of the expensive Ethereum Layer 1. Not only does this reduce Mantle Network's gas fees by 80%, but it also reduces gas fee volatility, providing a more stable foundation for Mantle's applications. The Mantle Treasury is one of the biggest DAO-owned treasuries, which is seeding an ecosystem of projects from all around the Web3 space for. Mantle. Mantle already has sub-communities from around Web3 on-boarded, like Game7 for Web3 gaming and Bybit for TVL and liquidity and on-ramps. So if you want to build on the Mantle network, Mantle is offering a grants program that provides milestone-based funding

• 38:27David Hoffman?

  to promising projects that help expand, secure, and decentralize Mantle. If you want to get started working with the first DAO-led Layer 2 ecosystem, check out Mantle at mantle.xyz and follow them on Twitter at @zeroxmantle. Arbitrum is the leading Ethereum scaling solution that is home to hundreds of decentralized applications. Arbitrum's technology allows you to interact with Ethereum at scale with low fees and faster transactions. Arbitrum has the leading DeFi ecosystem, strong infrastructure options, flourishing NFTs, and is quickly becoming the Web3 gaming hub. Explore the ecosystem at portal.arbitrum.io. Are you looking to permissionlessly launch your own Arbitrum Orbit chain? Arbitrum Orbit allows anyone to utilize Arbitrum's secure scaling technology to build your own Orbit chain,

• 39:10David Hoffman?

  giving you access to interoperable, customizable permissions with dedicated throughput. Whether you're a developer, an enterprise, or a user, Arbitrum Orbit lets you take your project to new heights. All of these technologies leverage the security and decentralization of Ethereum. Experience Web3 development the way it was always meant to be: secure, fast, cheap, and friction-free. Visit arbitrum.io and get your journey started in one of the largest Ethereum communities. Launching a token? Worried about the IRS? Talk to Toku for five minutes to learn how to save hundreds of thousands of dollars for you, your team, and your investors. Now, if you do an initial consultation, Toku will cover the cost of your token valuation, which is what you need for your launch. So, don't wait. Reach out to the team right now at [email protected].

• 39:53David Hoffman?

  That's [email protected]. Taking self-custody of your crypto is one of the most important things you can do on your bankless journey. It's also one of the hardest things to get right, with huge consequences if you don't. If you want help going bankless, talk to Casa. Casa helps you take custody of your crypto assets so you don't have to wonder whether you're doing it right. Casa is a one-stop shop for doing self-custody the right way. With Casa Vaults, you can hold Ether, Bitcoins, stablecoins, all with one simple app and multiple keys for the ultimate peace of mind with a support team to help you every step of the way. But it doesn't stop at self custody because even though crypto is forever, you are not. We all plan on making life-changing wealth in crypto, but with Casa's inheritance product, life-changing wealth can elevate to generational wealth for your kids and your loved ones

• 40:37David Hoffman?

  who don't know anything about crypto. With Casa, you won't lose your private keys and you won't accidentally take them to the grave either. Click the link in the description to get started securing your generational wealth. Okay, so kind of just like speedrunning through the history of like gaming specifically. We had like the crypto games of 2021, which were basically like Axie Infinity, right? These like Ponzi-esque economic games, kind of a flash in the pan. They kind of spurred some development, but they really haven't made a lasting mark on the Ethereum space or the crypto space. We have the crypto games of today, which are actually like much more like normal games. They are very highly polished, AAA, high graphics card, high GPU games. And like just the assets in the game are on chain somewhere.

• 41:20David Hoffman?

  It's like only the things of value in that universe. And now finally, we have like the layer twos to actually support like a more flourishing type of assets. So there's many, many more types of assets, but it's still just the assets, right? It's still just Chris Dixon's own. And so like what we're going for, what Lettuce is going for is like, let's put the actual computation of the game and put that on chain too, which is like extremely ambitious because like the level of scale that you need to put like big, big games on chain is still like a very large amount of scale. But the thing is like, we have a pretty clear path to getting there. And also you don't have to start, you don't have to put like graphics on chain. Like you actually just have to put like logic on chain. And so that's, that's like where we're going towards.

• 42:06David Hoffman?

  And so like, what are some of the games that are being actually built like today? What are some of the fully on-chain games that like people can get their hands on?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And one thing I will add is that it's not only scale, which is one thing I think people focus a lot on rightfully. Like if you think about 20 years ago, we could have had. A billion IBM mainframe instead of 10, it would not have changed anything. It's like, okay, we have a billion IBM mainframe and what do we do with them? You know, there was still no way to actually make them do anything. So it's not only scale, it's you have to like create these layers of abstraction, right? Like it's not just like, oh, we have an EVM chain with a billion TPS. Oh yeah, cool. You have that. And now what are, how are going, people going to build the applications to be put there, right? It's like having a really big computer and having no operating system and like essentially nothing to put on top.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  So we think like, kind of like our quest is both on the side of like, well, okay, we have to like spread these ideas and get like, encourage people to build these games and really explore the other verbs of Ethereum beyond own. Another branch is while we have to do the scaling stuff and thankfully, a lot of people are working with us on that. Like we're, I mean, we're working very closely with optimism, but everybody's working on scaling. And the third thing is like, well, we have to let the developers and also everybody else, not just the developers, be able to like put things on these computers, right? So that's like the third branch. But if we go back to the, to the games that are being built today, um, there's a couple. So it ranges from people essentially kind of doing the social crypto stuff that like, basically things that are very close to what currently exists.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  They can just build it like 100 times faster, all the way to like very crazy pie in the sky projects. Some of them actually having the resources to be developed, right? So, um, if we start with something that is a bit more close to like what people kind of imagine today. There's this studio, good friend of ours, Small Brain Game. What they do is they're like, let's take a really like simple thing, you know, like Scrabble as an example. You lay down letters on the board, but now the twist is you have to buy the letters. And every time you buy the letters, you put money in a pot. And when you make good words, you take money from that pot. So now suddenly Small Brain Game is trying to run the biggest Scrabble game in the world and make it as competitive as possible. And the thing that is interesting, so that, that game is called Words 3. Small Brain has run a couple of rounds before the first one was on base.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Now they're going to run a very big round of Words 3 on Redstone. The Larry 2, we shipped actually yesterday. And the thing that's interesting with Small Brain is Small Brain is a Micro, micro, micro team and they're able to build this, which is the same kind of complexity as us trying to build this Dungeon Keeper game two years ago, but they can build it alone. So that's one thing that is really interesting. It's like, okay, there, there are ideas that we could see emerging from anyone in the crypto space. But now because of these layers of abstraction, you know, kind of like the riverside people being able to ship us their software, you know, on, on our browser. Now small brain game can kind of get that stuff off the ground, running very, very quickly. And on the other extreme, there are, there's, there's a studio called CCP Games from Iceland. They built Eve Online.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  Eve Online is this like legendary, kind of like space MMO and they're building a new game in the Eve universe that is on chain using Mud, which is the framework built by Lattice. And that's like a crazy, crazy scope, you know, it's, I mean, it's still kind of under wrap. But the thing that is interesting is we're seeing both the idea and the tooling be extremely useful for one person all the way to a lot, like a huge team of like a hundred folks. There's a bunch of other games today that you can already play. So listeners might know about Primodium and Skystrife. I would say these are like the two big, big mod games. Primodium is made by, by our, our dear friends. The Primodium is essentially kind of like a mix between a base building game of resource accumulation and also a space conquest game.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  It's like, what if Dark Forest had a baby with Factorio? And I think that's interesting with, with Primodium is same thing. It's built by a super small team. It has the amount of state and the amount of code of Primodium is massive. It's probably one of the biggest solidity code base in the world, but it works like they can do like, if you think about MakerDAO, you know, MakerDAO had to spend like three years getting Maker to work. I mean, it's a different thing, you know, it's a bank, they would never change it. It has to be right the first time. We're talking about very different kind of like guarantee of security and all of that. But still the fact that like a three people dev team could build this is pretty insane, right? Another game is, I'll, I'll get back to like what the games actually do. So people can have a better picture of what they are. Another game we're building at Lattice is Skystrife and that's kind of like a turn by turn strategy game.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Advanced War on Game Boy Advance, if people remember that, that, that game. Force turn chess essentially. You have to play all your units every 15 seconds or so. And the way most of these games look like when people get into them is they're like, You remember the PHP games from like 10 years ago, you know, like Game of War and that kind of stuff? You had your base, you had to like build little houses, it would take like 10 hours and you could invade your friends. Tribal War, I don't know if you've played Tribal War?

• 47:07David Hoffman?

  I haven't played these now.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  All of these were like games that were running in the browser and they were essentially built around the limitations of browser games at the time and browser technologies. So what we're seeing today is a similar trend. Games are being built around the limitations still of small teams plus blockchain today, which are, they can't be real time. Like you don't, we're not going to counter strike on Ethereum anytime soon. That's not going to happen anytime soon. So they're mostly turn by turn games or like strategy games or resource management games. Most of them run in the browser. So that means that from a graphics perspective, even if people can do this stuff in the browsers, it's pretty hard. The reason they run in the browser is because every single Ethereum user today interface with Ethereum from their browser.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  You know, wallets work in the browser, they're used to being in the browser because they're on Twitter and they're on EtherScan. So there's also this, this one thing I found really interesting with the Anshin Gaming ecosystem is they embrace the fact that Ethereum is on the browser. As opposed to trying to do this thing which is like, well, come play our crypto game on PS5. And that just like literally makes zero sense because people are not used to interact with the world computer on that device. Maybe they will be at some point, but today Ethereum is mostly in the browser, right? So if you want a picture in your head, you close your eyes, you're like, okay, it's a bunch of Pixar art games, sometimes not, but most of them they are. They are turn by turn, you know, like people play them over a couple hours. There's a lot of developer activity because you can hack on top of them.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Most of them are open source and people love to trade resources in them because there's the old kind of like desire of crypto, which is like, let me accumulate some stuff and give it to my friends. The thing that is interesting this time is people can steal it from you and it's part of the rules. So that's what I found also quite interesting is you can take all of the ecosystem that has been built, you know, the swaps, the staking protocols and all of that, but now they live in a universe. It's, you can go and raid the pool if you want. It's not just the North Korean hackers that can take the pool, you can go take the pool. And so that's the thing that is pretty interesting here is like there is the rules of physics that dictate how these things behave. Yeah.

• 49:07David Hoffman?

  So I think the vibe here is that there's just a bunch of teams who are kind of like sussing out the boundaries of what is really able to be built right now.

• 49:14Speaker 01

  Nobody knows what needs to be built. Like, it's not like there's something out there we can copy. Because the thing with the games you were talking about, which are like AAA games with assets on chain, is that they know what is going to be successful. They don't know if they will be successful. They're like, okay, these games are successful, and our monetization strategy is to let players own their assets and like take a fee on the GMV of that economy. You know, like if the economy is flourishing, we'll take a percentage from that. So the thing with on-chain games is nobody has any idea what is going to be most interesting about that, right? So everybody's kind of like trying stuff. I would say that we're in a good place, which is that people in the on-chain gaming ecosystem are very kind of like, they're thinking long-term, they're trying to be like, okay, this will be interesting,

• 49:55Speaker 01

  this will be interesting. But they're not stuck in idealism. Like, most teams today are like, let's find something that is fun, let's get players to come back, you know? And then we'll see some of the most interesting stuff emerge. And it always does. There's always something that comes up when there is sufficient amount of people that like the game and comes back, which is the really interesting thing.

• 50:15David Hoffman?

  Right. And I also want to just bring back one of something that you said about Dark Forest, is that the original Dark Forest, and I think there's actually been some iterations as well, some like further versions, but it's still running. It's running right now. I played Dark Forest like three years ago or something, back when I lived in Seattle, and that same universe is just like ours, is still there. And I don't know how big Death Scrabble game is, but like in theory, if it literally doesn't have a boundary and there's infinite letters, that game could literally go forever. You could build like the largest Scrabble universe of all time. And like, we're like, how far? It's like 42 minutes into this episode and we haven't said the word metaverse, but I'm sure that people talk to you and say, this is a metaverse, right? How do you feel about the word metaverse?

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the word, I mean, what do you think about the word metaverse? I kind of erased it from my brain, to be fair, because of like how overloaded it come.

• 51:10David Hoffman?

  It got really overloaded in 2021.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  But to be fair, like, I remember when, um, when I was working with the Darkfress folks, we were like, holy fucking shit, this is the metaverse. This is the real metaverse. The metaverse is not about how you, this is not about how you perceive it with your eyes and your body. It's about the universe is real. It's real. It exists. It doesn't care about you. It has its rules. Machines will be able to interface in the universe the same way you do. You know, like, you might meet things in this universe that are kind of like aliens. You know, like, what does it look like to have Darkfress native, like, things living there? That's very, that's a very strange thing, right? It's like, oh, okay, because today, today's video games, they're very much made for humans. I mean, it's kind of like a weird thing to say, but they're very much made for humans.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  But the thing is, as we put more stuff in the digital world, whereas it's money, you know, that's like a very important thing from the crypto, from the crypto folks, which starts all the way from like libertarian ideas. But, you know, with AI today, we're creating digital beings. And digital beings probably want a fair playing game. They want like, they want the rules of the universe to be there and not change. And they don't want to be like, man, if I don't have my human with me to like unlock these things, I can't do anything. Like, sometimes, all, all, when it's really late at the office, there is, there are discussions are like, wait. I mean, I, I think the true PMF here is if the AGIs want to be in these worlds, because they're much better than the ones we have here today.

• 52:34David Hoffman?

  Right, like, so, like, ChatGPT, LLMs, like, the, the reason why, like, um, stable diffusion or ChatGPT, like, there's always just errors in all of them, like, all the time. Because they have to be trained to ingest our human universe, our human internet. Yeah, you have to go through a very intense training process for them to be, like, remotely effective at, like, some high school level. But on Ethereum, every, all of this state is perfectly objective and verifiable and accessible to all of the robots.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  And you can simulate it. You can just be like, oh, what would happen if I did that? And they can, they can know. They don't have to ask someone to tell them what would happen. They could just simulate it.

• 53:14David Hoffman?

  Right, and so the learning process and the execution process for like on-chain agents is gonna be vastly just more simple than like this, the world of AI that we know as like ChatGPT.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Totally, totally.

• 53:26David Hoffman?

  And then, and then also at the same time, you have like inside of these like games that are being birthed, the assets inside of them are completely interoperable with the rest of Ethereum, right? Is that, is that true?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  They are, they are, they are. I mean, they are up to, the, the universe at the end of the day, these, these kind of like autonomous worlds, the world decides to what extent. So as an example, um, the world can decide, hey, it's interoperable, but I might take it away from you if someone in the game actually takes it away from you by violence. That's the other interesting thing, the world is sovereign. Exactly, the world, yeah, in-game violence. I mean, real violence works as well, but that's a, that's a different thing.

• 54:03David Hoffman?

  Different rules of that universe, there's different rules you have to play.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you can exit that universe and reach the other one, which is ours, but yes. So that's the thing that's interesting is the assets are not sovereign, the world is sovereign. At the end of the day, you're an inhabitant of that world. Because these web 2.5 games, at the end of the day, the point of them is like, oh, I own my things, but not even the world can take it away from me. So it's this weird like hybrid model, but here it's like, no, the world is the top level entity. It's the sovereign thing. I can enjoy the possession of these assets as long as the world allows me to do, but it's not the evil developers that take it away from you. It's not like the company that wants to make a profit that steal the assets. It's literally the world decides. And that's the thing that is really interesting is the world is kind of an economic agent,

• 54:49Speaker 01

  but at the same time, it's not there for profit, it's there to survive. Like the point of the world is to keep running. It's to keep the game running and the universe running, which I find also kind of like an interesting side effect. Because the way we're gonna monetize these worlds is gonna be very different. Today, the way you monetize a world is you're essentially the god of the world and you tax everybody. It's more like a theme park. It's not a world. It's a theme park. You can come in the theme park and you're the only, we're the only ones saying popcorn, you have to buy it from us. But in these, these worlds, the world is sovereign and the group of people that helped birth the world has to find a way to monetize that is not being the god. Like it's, it's probably, it's either well, we'll be first. That's one thing I've always wanted to do with that is, is like, the way we'll monetize is we'll just be first.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  We'll just be first in the world and you can come, but we're gonna immediately start building an army. We're gonna, we're gonna recruit, I mean, if it's a violent world, maybe it's a cooperative world, but let's go with a violent one. We'll probably recruit a general, we'll start accumulating and you can come, but like our advantage is we, we build them physics. We know how it works. Another way to monetize is the game studio can decide to be the world for some amount of time. Kind of like the house in a casino. So you could imagine, um, let's say it's like a fantasy, kind of like universe. You could imagine like dragons and goblins living in the forest and they constantly raid villages and pillage and all of that. The players can unite against them and what these dragons and goblins are is there is just a game studio that created the world. And at the end of the day, if the players get truly good, then the company goes bankrupt and that's it.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  But they had a good time and, and they probably, hopefully returned their development costs. So it's really, because it switches the monetization so much, it also means that studios today don't know what their, what their metrics are for, for being successful, right? Because there are, there's maybe a short-term way to monetize these worlds right now. That doesn't lead to a world becoming truly autonomous and interesting, which is the bull case. Like you would rather be the creator of a world that goes to like one billion GMV and being like the, like, today it's not that hard to have a bigger economy than the moon or Mars, which is kind of nuts, right? Like, like we could build a game that has a bigger economy than the moon or Mars and that is as real as the moon or Mars. If something runs on Ethereum, it's arguably, I mean, it's arguably almost as real as the moon or Mars.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  But now like we created a thing that is for now a bigger economy that these celestial bodies. And I, I would rather have 1% of this that be like the, the god of like a small theme park, a small neighborhood theme park, you know? So that's another thing I find interesting is we also don't know how to monetize. People don't know what to build because they don't know what's going to be successful. And it also, they also don't know what's a financially like healthy way of building these things. But that's why it's exciting because we kind of have to figure that one out.

• 57:25David Hoffman?

  Yeah, the specific monetization model, I think, kind of will just come, I think, the first order of business is just like, just grow the GDP of all of these universes.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:35David Hoffman?

  Once there's a high amount of GDP, you'll figure out how to monetize. And like, the cool thing is like, just growing a GDP is a monetization route for anyone who makes a brand new universe, right? It's actually a pretty democratized way of like, growing GDP. And like, we've never really had like this internet native GDP measure, but like, with actual like, on-chain universes. Like, that is, that is straight internet GDP. That's not like GDP that's one foot in, one foot out. I did this episode with Andrew from Conduit in Georgia, it was not terribly long ago. And he left something in my brain that I think is actually kind of relevant here. Andrew, he's a rollup as a service provider out of Conduit, and so they help spin up rollups. Did, maybe they did your guys' did Lattice, maybe not?

• 58:16Speaker 01

  No, it's in-house for us.

• 58:18David Hoffman?

  Okay, so like, yeah, so that he does, it's a one-click deployment for rollups.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:22David Hoffman?

  And he said something where like, the total number of supply of rollups will be a function of how much demand for compute that there is. And, and then he also said like, well, there might be like, times where you just spin up a rollup, but its state growth is just like, way too sustainable to be a long-term blockchain, but it's only meant to be a blockchain for like, two weeks, and then it collapses, and then it's gone. And I think there's something related here where like, a game can spin up for like, two weeks, but it's a very short-term game. People play the game, and then, and then the game's over, and then like, the rollup just dies by design. Is there, have you thought about this kind of design space?

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I mean, one thing we were thinking a lot about with, with, with Lattice, and kind of like, we started with Redstone, which is one chain, already like, much bigger blocks than other blockchains, really optimized from that. But the idea, the long-term is like, what does fractal scaling looks like? You know, what does it look like to have like, different pieces? Because the thing with one chain is that, the guarantee you get is that everything can interface with everything immediately. But that's not needed in this universe, because, you know, here in this universe, I mean, whoever simulates this universe made this convenient rule for themselves, which is the speed of light. Which means if something happened here, and on the other side of the universe, the other side of the universe doesn't have to know immediately. It travels at the speed of like, you know, like, information and causality travels at the speed of light.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  And I suspect that if this universe is a simulation, the reason they did that is because it means you can simulate it fast on parallel computers. Because now you don't need to put everything in the same CPU core. You can kind of like simulate it in parallel. Because what I do here doesn't impact the rest of the universe for quite some time. So if you think about the blockchain...

• 59:58David Hoffman?

  It's a great conspiracy take.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's Nvidia. It's just like, we had to make it work on GPU, so we added the speed of light.

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  In a blockchain, there is no speed of light. Anytime you do something, it can impact the rest of the blockchain immediately. When you started doing multiple rollups and all that, the reason why we can scale is also because there is a speed of light. You know, like what I do on one chain cannot impact the other chain immediately. There is kind of like a process of like message passing or whatever. So the thing that's interesting with... Exactly. So the thing is interesting with worlds and with physics and all of that. And very viscerally for people playing video games, they know that when they do something in one part of the world, it doesn't have to be able to access and write to the state on the other side of the world, right? Like, it takes time for things to propagate. I have to walk around in World of Warcraft. I cannot buy from like the global marketplace if I'm not in the right server.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Like, there's already this sharding native view when people think about virtual worlds. So I think ancient games led themselves super well to this idea of like, we're gonna have to scale fractally. And I think this is where it has to go over time. So yeah, one idea we had a long time ago is like, what does it look like to take something like Dark Forest and split the universe into chains? So each part of the universe, and there's infinite, because there's an infinite amount of chain ID. There's an infinite amount of patches in Dark Forest. And if you control the central planet of that sector, you're the one that sequences the chain and takes the fee. So now you have this thing where like, I can go around and if I take over someone else's planet, I become the operator of that chain.

• 1:01:30David Hoffman?

  You become the god, yeah.

• 1:01:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. And then, and the thing that's interesting is because rollups have these things that allow anyone to force include a transaction, you know, even if the sequencer doesn't like you. If I land into the part of the universe that is run by an enemy guild, they can slow me down, but they can't slow me down infinitely. So now I have my troops like slowly creeping around because they have to like force include transactions. Anyway, that was a wild idea. But it would be kind of fun, which is, what does it look like to have an app where part of the app is run by the users? And some of the users might be adversarial with each other. Because they're like, hey, that part of the world is run by the bankless DAO and they really, they really don't like you. And you can still try to go, but they really don't like you. And you can take it over from them.

• 1:02:11David Hoffman?

  So you're starting to actually leverage like the what was previously external properties like of these systems and you're actually like invoking them as actually part of the system itself, part of the universe itself.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:22David Hoffman?

  Really interesting like relationship between just like the hardware, software and actual actual users. Okay. So you guys just deployed your layer two. What is that layer two going to do? What is that going to unlock for you guys?

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when we, when we started, um, so we first we built games, right? And we're like, okay, we have to build this operating system for Ethereum, right? Like it's just, it's untenable right now to, to build games or any form of complex app. So we built mod and we made a lot of nice thing with it. We're like, okay, you don't, you don't need all of this indexing thing that people spend so much time on you. Like all of this is made so much easier for you. But then we reached the, the, the limit of like, okay, turns out all the layer two kind of groups today, they're making stuff for DeFi and it makes sense, right? This is the stuff that's out there. So what do we do? We scale DeFi and it's not like they made their network not usable for non-DeFi. They just didn't focus on the kind of like engineering metrics that are important for worlds that go beyond owning stuff.

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  And so that's why we forked Bedrock when we were doing OP Craft. It wasn't called OP Craft at the time. It was called Mudcraft. We're like, we need our own chain and we need to like make the blocks much bigger because the reason why people didn't make the block bigger is because well, we won't run this blockchain forever. And for us, we didn't care. It's like what you said, we won't run OP for two weeks. We can make the blocks as big as we want, right? So that was like our first foray into this and we, we, we kept doing it, you know, after that, like the OP stack kind of grew, kind of got big and then people started putting rollups left and right. But still today, all the tooling, all the way people do our PCs, everything, it's very much optimized for like turnkey deployment of DeFi or like whatever app exists today. So Redstone for us is a way to essentially be able to say, hey, whoever uses Lattice's

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  technology, we can optimize the whole stack, hardware and software, you know, where the chain is the hardware and mod is the software for. Virtual worlds for these inter-objective realities. So we can focus on things like we're going to focus on latency. We're going to focus on like the ability to be able to like synchronize the state between your client of your game and the blockchain really quickly. It also enables us to essentially create automatically a community of people that cares about this. Because the thing that is interesting is these games, I mean, we never were big on the idea of like cross-game relationship. Because it never really made that much sense to me. It's like, what does it mean to move things? It's like, oh yeah, I can take my tennis ball to the golf court. And it's like, cool, it just doesn't make sense. It's just like fundamentally different universes.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  But it still remains the case that one thing that is interesting is modders, like one realized with mod is that all the games have the same API to build things on top. And so if all the games are on the same chain, now all of these like modding guilds and the hackers and all of that, they're like, oh, you know, like it's so convenient. Because all of this state is interoperable, right? Like I can like build this tooling there and it exists there as well. It works for Primodium, it works for Sky Strife, it works for like the Infinite Scrabble game. So it was really like a combination of factors. It's like, A, we really want to be able to optimize the whole stack. And right now we keep kind of like banging our head on the fact that chains are optimizing for DeFi. And we couldn't get a good experience essentially. We couldn't get the latency we wanted on existing systems. So we were like, let's just, let's just do it. The second thing is it would automatically create a community.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  Because now we have this chain and it's, I mean, we love NFTs, we love DeFi, we love all that stuff, but it's not for that. You can come do it if you want, but really like the kind of people we're going to onboard, the partners we're going to work with, the users we're going to drive there. They're interested in virtual worlds that work on chain. You know, that's really what we optimized for. And third, there's this like, we, we kind of want to see like, okay, so if we start adding more red stones, can we just make it like, nobody will ever notice? Like, you know, on AWS, you don't know when they add more servers. Like, nobody cares. There's just like, there are more servers that are being racked, maybe by robots, who knows? I've, I've never been in US East One. Nobody comes out alive from these data centers if they force their way. It might just be robots today, right? But we don't have to know.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  So similarly, today, if you add a new chain, it's a whole thing. Oh, there's a new chain, we have to migrate, I have to add to my wallet. So really, what we want to get to is, because people build apps using MUD, and MUD is between the developer and the chain, we want to get to a world where, at some point, the people that build Skystrive, they wake up one morning, and we tell them, "Oh, actually, no, Skystrive runs on two different chain, and the state has been sharded", and they wouldn't even notice. And the users as well. We want the users and the developers to be like, "Wow, now I just have more gas. Isn't that neat?", you know? And, and we can't do this if we now, like, we have to, like, it, it's, it's just, the optimization of the full stack is something we really wanted to get to. Because we've kind of like been munching on this since the beginning. We started with MUD, and then we're like, "Ah, awkward, we have to keep going."

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  So, it's big for us, because now it enables us to, like, essentially go faster on our agenda.

• 1:07:04David Hoffman?

  Okay, so there are, like, some of these, like, call them like demo games, like I said, like sussing out the boundaries of what you can really do here. But let's like zoom forward to, like, just really, like, use your imagination. Like, where, where do you think this, these types of games could look like in like 10 years, 20 years? Like, what's the final form of these games?

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it will really depend how serious people are about them.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  You know how early Bitcoin, it was like, "Oh, I have all of these Bitcoins, I don't know what to do with them", like, "I'll buy a pizza for like, I don't know how many Bitcoins", and it was just like this thing that you just play around with it. But no, it's very serious. Very, very, very serious. And so, I think that the thing will change depending on how serious people take them. But one thing I'm not convinced of is people tend to think that seriousness is incompatible with playfulness. And I don't think that's true, basically. And so I think it is possible to have something that is, that has consequences, that is serious for some people, but it is playful as well. And I think that the problem with over-financialization is that it robs you away from playfulness,

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  because you're just in this, I have this talk I give comparing homo economicus and homo ludens, like homo economicus is the perfectly rational man, and the problem with the perfect genderless man, that the problem with the perfectly, like, rational human is that... Everything is just about maximizing your capital and you're gonna make

• 1:08:29David Hoffman?

  Everything is a calculation, yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Everything is a calculation, right? And, and the thing with over-financialization is that it basically gets all of us to slowly become homo economicus in many ways. It's really hard to resist the homo economicus. So I think that, I, I just wanna see where, I, I don't know in which direction it's going to go, but it will heavily depend on how serious these things are. Second, I think it will heavily depend on AI. Because I think that if, if AI agents become pretty good, if AI agents at some point are like, huh, I kinda wanna own stuff for real, or I kinda wanna like be useful outside of like the, the, the little B2B SaaS I'm in. I think these environments, I mean, that's, we're, we're in true speculation mode now, but I think these environments are basically going to be really great, like equivalent

• 1:09:15Speaker 01

  of Mars or the moon, like digital equivalent of that for AI agents to go and do stuff. And, and I think that the way, the, the thing we'll do as humans is going to be very different. Because now there's this world where the rules are fair and there's all of these AI agents and I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like an engineer, a diplomat, a physicist, I collaborate with people and some stuff there, I, I don't really know, you know? Like today's video games are much more like theme park than they're a world. Like they look like worlds, but at the end of the day, like everything is like carefully engineered for you to have a good time and like kind of like guide you around to the next ride. I think these will look quite different. The, the one glimpse you have in this is Minecraft servers. So there are these Minecraft servers called Anarchy Minecraft servers.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  And what Anarchy Minecraft servers are, are Minecraft servers without any rules. So you can't be banned, you, you, there's no rules of property, you can kill anyone, you can say whatever you want, there's no organization. And there's this one famous Anarchy server called 2B2T, like two like the digit and B like the letter 2T. It's been running for 15 years, never had a reset. And the amount of emergent property in 2B2T is totally insane. And when you start in 2B2D, it is a wasteland because the spawn has never been made pretty because it's just a harsh world. It's a wasteland. But as you start venturing around, you find all of these different communities that have survived the initial contact with the harsh reality. And there's this whole world that kind of like emerged from that.

• 1:10:40Speaker 01

  And so I think that it will look way more like this than it looks like.

• 1:10:44David Hoffman?

  Minecraft Burning Man?

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  It's Minecraft Burning Man, exactly. And I think it will look way more like that than a super polished like, oh, I'm playing my first day of this AAA game and I'm being like, kind of like following the tutorial. I mean, the great thing is companies can go do that. You know, if you have one of these worlds, if I'm like, hey, I, I onboard users and I make money from that, you can go make the theme park that onboard users. That's also another very interesting thing. Like today, the rules of the worlds, the commercial kind of like model, the onboarding, the social system, all of that is bundled. It's done by one company, one director, one mastermind. But when you have these open worlds, you can unbundle this thing. You have like the digital physicists that decided on the physics of the world and then they can go peace out and disappear forever.

• 1:11:28Speaker 01

  And then you have the people that do the onboarding and then you have the people that like, you can kind of like have this breakdown of roles, the same way we have it in Ethereum. Like today, the validators validate, the builders build, the MEF exploit, the developers build. You know, like there's this unbundling of roles. And I think the same thing would probably happen in these worlds as well.

• 1:11:45David Hoffman?

  I, I think that there's, it feels like this is such a strong conclusion of like where all of this blockchain stuff goes. Because like if you believe that we're going on chain, like this is where, this is what that means, right? And this is you're putting more stuff on chain and not, and we're not just like putting stuff on chain. We're actually birthing a universe on chain natively, like it's an on chain native, native world. And like people are always wonder like, yo, like it's 2024 in crypto land. Like where are all the users? Like where are all the assets? We are just now getting some like real adoption and some marginal use cases. But you could see like the, when somebody can build a universe with quite literally limitless potential, the total number of transactions just absolutely explodes.

• 1:12:29David Hoffman?

  The total number of users just absolutely explodes. And with the sufficient level of abstraction that you've kind of laid out in order to make that happen, like as, as when we can get some like on-chain native GDP, then that's going to be the magnet that just like sucks people into, into this universe.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Totally. And that GDP, currently, the way people try to create that GDP is very reflexive. Because if you have a world that has no rules but money, it's like, wow, you bring money to make more money, and then you swap that money for another money, and then you speculate on that money, and then you can take it out. The thing is, when you have actual rules, it's not reflexive anymore, right? Like, if I accumulate rocks on Mars, it's real. Like, you have the right to not believe in rocks on Mars, but no, I could build a castle. And you have this whole thing, which, like, the more, like, people still need to care about the world, for the world to be useful and valuable, because otherwise, I can instantiate a world that nobody gives a shit about, and it, that's, it doesn't matter if it lasts forever, or if it keeps existing, right?

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  In many ways, yes, it's true that the dark forest universe still exists, but if nobody cares about it, it's like, you know, it's like the forest and the tree, sorry, the tree in the forest. Like, if the tree falls in the forest, nobody hears it. Did it fall? We don't know. It's not important. But that's why I think that also increasing the amount of things that can care is really important, too. That's why this whole, like, AI agent, and it doesn't even have to be AI. Like, this whole agent stuff is really interesting, because now there are more things than just humans that care about these rules being respected and things progressing there. So, I mean, if you want to go truly wild, like, if I die, I would rather upload my consciousness in an autonomous world than in anything else, because I want to keep existing. I don't want to be into some stuff that, like, where the rules, like, imagine being this, like, digital being, and then the rules get rugged, like, literally.

• 1:14:13David Hoffman?

  In a centralized server, yeah, right.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, literally. I want to be uploaded in an autonomous world. I don't want to be uploaded into something else. Another thing to kind of, like, throw out there as, like, truly speculative stuff is that, what's the final stage of any civilization, right? It's probably to create a universe. It's like, the final thing you do, you know, you're like, okay, we've explored the universe, we've conquered the stars, we can use all the energy. So now the final thing we'll do is we'll create a universe, you know? And we'll let that universe do whatever it wants. And I think the thing that's interesting with all of this cryptography stuff, distributed system and all of that, is we're going towards this idea of, like, hey, we're going to be able to create a universe that is real. You know, it's like, truly objective. So, that's not crypto 2040, that's, I don't know when we have to get there.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  But it's interesting, because it goes toward that agenda of, like, the final, the final stage of civilization, which is, let's create a universe that goes beyond us.

• 1:15:06David Hoffman?

  Beautiful. Well, Justin, this is, uh, exactly, it's cosmic, because I was hoping this conversation would be. If people are peaked and they want to learn more about what you guys are doing at Lattice, where should they go?

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  You guys can follow us on Twitter, @LatticeXYZ. We have a bunch of blog posts on LatticeXYZ as well. You should check out ZeroXPark as well. ZeroXPark is the founder of Lattice. It all comes from ZeroXPark, Darkforest, the blog post and everything. I'd say the more cosmic vision of all of this usually starts on the ZeroXPark blog post, not on the Lattice blog post. Yeah, that's where you should. But I would say, if people are interested, come to autonomous world conferences. You know, come talk to the people. DEFCON is on the corner, you know, in November in Southeast Asia. We'll probably have a conference there, an Autonomous World Assembly. Come, come check it out and you'll hear more cosmic visions of Ethereum late at night.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, on the beach, hopefully.

• 1:16:03David Hoffman?

  Well, I will certainly be at the Autonomous World Assembly at DEFCON. I've had autonomous worlds in the back of my mind ever since playing Dark Forest. So it's been something that I know is out there. I just know it takes a lot of development. Like you said, there's a bunch of abstraction layers that still need to be built. But like, I think this is perhaps the coolest frontier that I think exists in the Ethereum ecosystem. So, Justin, thank you for pioneering out that frontier and telling us a little bit about it today.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, David.

• 1:16:31David Hoffman?

  Bankless Nation, you guys know the deal. Crypto is risky and in autonomous worlds, there are actual real consequences in them, which is kind of the cool part. But nonetheless, you can lose what you put in. We are headed west. This is the frontier. And it's not for everyone, but we are glad you are with us on the Bankless journey. Thanks a lot.