Pod Insights Song Exploder Gracie Abrams - I Love You, I'm Sorry About this episode Gracie Abrams is a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She started putting out music in 2020, and in June 2024, she put out her second album, The Secret of Us. She was nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist, and this year she’s up for another Grammy, for Best Duo Performance, for her collaboration with Taylor Swift. But for this episode, I talked to Gracie about her song “I Love You, I’m Sorry.” It was produced by Aaron Dessner, at Long Pond Studio in upstate New York, and it was co-written with Audrey Hobert.
Coming up, you’ll hear the isolated tracks from the studio recording, but you’ll also get to hear a lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during the writing process. I think it’s so nice to have these raw moments documented because, as you’ll hear, they give you an insight not just into the song, but into the relationship that Gracie and her co-writer Audrey have as friends.
For more, visitsongexploder.net/gracie-abrams https://songexploder.net/gracie-abrams.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Hrishikesh Hirway? You're listening to Song Exploder, where musicians take apart their songs and, piece by piece, tell the story of how they were made. I'm Rishi Kesh Hirway.
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1:18 Hrishikesh Hirway? This episode is sponsored by LinkedIn. Anyone who's ever had to spend money on marketing knows how tricky it can be to feel like you've spent that money wisely. Well, with LinkedIn Ads, you can be sure that you'll get a great return on your investment. You can target your campaigns by company, industry, job title, and more. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/songexploder. That's linkedin.com/songexploder. Terms and conditions apply.
1:54 Hrishikesh Hirway? This episode is sponsored by the podcast What It's Like to Be. Do you ever think about what other people's workdays look like? Satisfying some of that curiosity is the idea at the heart of bestselling author Dan Heath's podcast, which is called What It's Like to Be. In each episode, Dan interviews someone from a different profession to find out what it's like to be a professional Santa Claus, or a Secret Service agent, or a long haul truck driver, or an aerospace engineer at NASA, just to name a few examples. The show gives you an insider view into all kinds of jobs from a wide range of industries, answering questions like, what do mail carriers learn about us from our mail?
2:36 Hrishikesh Hirway? There are so many jobs out there that exist only as titles in our imagination, if they even register that much. This show is a chance to reach beyond what you know, or think you know. If you're curious to learn more about the work lives of other people, check out What It's Like to Be, wherever you get podcasts. This episode contains explicit language. Gracie Abrams is a singer and songwriter from Los Angeles. She started putting out music in 2020, and in June 2024, she put out her second album, The Secret of Us. She was nominated for a Grammy for Best New Artist, and this year she's up for another Grammy for Best Duo Performance for her collaboration with Taylor Swift. But for this episode, I talk to Gracie about her song, "I Love You, I'm Sorry."
3:18 Hrishikesh Hirway? It was produced by Aaron Dessner at Long Pond Studio in upstate New York, and it was co-written with Audrey Hobart. Coming up, you'll hear the isolated tracks from the studio recording, but you also get to hear a lot of the voice memos that Gracie recorded during the writing process. I think it's so nice to have these raw moments documented, because as you'll hear, they give you an insight not just into the song, but into the relationship that Gracie and her co-writer Audrey have as friends.
3:44 Speaker 01 That's just the way life goes. I like to slam doors closed. Trust me, I know it's always about me. I love you, I'm sorry.
4:02 Hrishikesh Hirway? Okay, I'm recording on my side. We're recording.
4:05 Speaker 02 Starting as well.
4:05 Hrishikesh Hirway? Great. Ready?
4:07 Speaker 02 I'm a very open book, so I'm ready to get into it.
4:11 Hrishikesh Hirway? Let's start at the beginning. Do you happen to remember the exact moment when the idea for this song first came to you?
4:19 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. I had just made a plan to hang and talk with my ex-boyfriend, who I used to write lots of songs about.
4:29 Hrishikesh Hirway? And at this point, was he already your ex?
4:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, it had been like two years, like having never run into each other, you know, no real communication. I had just felt so much, not even residual love, but just like real love for somebody who was so significant in my life and such a formative partner. And I think having had a couple of years of space, there was more room than ever for not only like reflecting on all that was, but also just kind of fantasizing about a world in which everything's cool between us.
5:09 Hrishikesh Hirway? Was there something that prompted this conversation that you were gonna have with your ex? Was there an event or something? How did it end up being that you were gonna reconnect?
5:19 Speaker 02 We were both gonna be home around the holidays, and it wasn't some dramatic thing, but it was very significant for me to reconnect at all. Audrey Hobert, who's my roommate and dear friend and co-writer on I Love You, I'm Sorry and on a handful of other songs on the album. She and I were sitting outside in our like tiny courtyard situation, and I just had the first line of the song come into my head immediately. And it was one of those moments where we're like in the middle of a conversation. And I told Audrey, "Hold on." Ran inside, grabbed the guitar, and that was the start of it.
6:09 Speaker 02 I just had two Augusts ago in my head immediately with the chords. There was something very nostalgic about those chords and it was around Christmas time because we had our Christmas tree in the house and I remember it feeling very like holiday spirit charged through the house, which helped when kind of being all like sappy.
6:39 Speaker 02 That was all I had in my head initially and I think, I think there's a huge chance if I had started that by myself, I wouldn't have actually ended up believing in it much. But with Audrey and I, it's like, I remember after starting it, writing the first bit, she was so like, fuck yes, like, let's chase it. She really brought the energy when I was more so just like nostalgic and a little blue.
7:07 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah, I find that a lot of times I will throw an idea away immediately after writing it, but if I write with somebody else and if they sing it back.
7:15 Speaker 02 Yes.
7:16 Hrishikesh Hirway? Then suddenly I'm like, oh, well, it's nice when you sing it.
7:20 Speaker 02 And I don't know, is it a self-esteem thing? I don't know, I think there's, there is something that will never not feel slightly embarrassing or like cringe about putting my feelings to song. Like, who do I think I am even? But having somebody else in the room to back you, yeah, it makes a huge difference.
7:38 Hrishikesh Hirway? And especially when it's someone who can say, I think that's a good line. And what about this for the next line?
7:44 Speaker 02 Totally.
7:46 Speaker 03 Find someone to date.
7:47 Speaker 02 I just think that I'll be something and find someone to date. And that's just the way life goes.
7:52 Speaker 03 I'll be a hoe, find someone to date.
7:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:57 Speaker 03 I'll make it known and find someone to date? Ooh. Wait, write that down.
8:06 Hrishikesh Hirway? Who's saying ooh there?
8:07 Speaker 02 Audrey, I said, I'll make it known. She goes, ooh. That's what I mean. It's like the nod of like, that's kind of funny. That's kind of a thing. It's so funny to listen back. Like, in my head, there was never an alternative lyric to any of these. I'm like, everything felt like it just came out. But then, listening back, I'm like, ew, find someone to date is terrible. Thank God we didn't keep that. Uh, yeah, yeah.
8:32 Hrishikesh Hirway? Can you tell me more about your relationship with Audrey? How did you end up writing songs together?
8:37 Speaker 02 We met when we were 10 years old and then went to middle school together and we were on the same bus to school. And so we'd sit with each other and music was always kind of the core of our relationship. Like, her mom is like, she's just like the coolest voice to me. And I remember like, growing up, always hearing her sing and being so impressed that she could like harmonize just like immediately. And Audrey kind of taught me how to do that when we were really little. And I taught her how to like, hold a melody when someone's like harmonizing and we'd sit on the bus and just do that. And as we grew up, we never ever even talked about writing music together. But when we moved in together two years ago, it just started happening one day because we kind of like riff off of each other so much.
9:18 Speaker 02 But what she brings out in me is a kind of self-assuredness and confidence. It was a side of my personality that I have struggled to infuse into my music. And I was really grateful to her for that specifically.
9:35 Hrishikesh Hirway? And how different is your songwriting conversation from your regular conversation?
9:40 Speaker 02 It's not all that different. I think what's really cool about writing with somebody that you do know so well. No one's feelings are getting hurt, so it's very blunt and very fast as a result. We're oftentimes going with the line that makes us laugh the hardest. And that's what kept it feeling so conversational the whole time, is we were really just like, making each other laugh in the face of big, uncomfortable, new adult feelings. But I think it's funny, like even, you know, for this, when I was listening back to our voice memos. There are so many moments where we will say the same thing at the same time.
10:23 Speaker 02 That doesn't mean we always land on that or keep it, but I, yeah, I think something happens cognitively with the two of us where we are on the same page often. But it's okay.
10:35 Speaker 03 Yeah, but it's okay for sure.
10:36 Speaker 02 Like, and, and you won't be here, but that's okay. Like, or like, and...
10:40 Speaker 03 I might, I'm like, I might not feel real, like, like, maybe, like...
10:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
10:46 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:47 Speaker 02 I lo-, I love that. I'm, I literally love, I might not feel real.
10:51 Speaker 03 But it's okay.
10:52 Speaker 02 But it's okay.
10:53 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:53 Speaker 02 Sick.
10:56 Hrishikesh Hirway? One of the things I love in one of the voice memos you sent me, there's a little exchange between you and Audrey, uh, that's like...
11:10 Speaker 03 On the lake, yeah.
11:12 Speaker 02 That's sick.
11:13 Speaker 03 That's great.
11:13 Speaker 02 And it's real.
11:16 Speaker 02 And it's real. It's so funny.
11:18 Hrishikesh Hirway? So can you tell me about that? What was the real part of that?
11:21 Speaker 02 The real part was, um, my, uh, family, my family is from Maine and my grandparents live on a lake in Maine that I have grown up, it's just like a very significant place in my life. And anybody who knows me knows that that is where I run away to and where I think about everything too, too hard.
11:54 Hrishikesh Hirway? Can I ask you more about the sense of humor between you two?
11:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:58 Hrishikesh Hirway? Because it's so much easier to laugh with a friend, but it's hard to laugh just by herself. And especially if you're trying to write a song that is emotionally true, it might be hard to squeeze jokes into it or, you know, things that are funny. Is this the sort of thing that can only emerge in that context with Audrey?
12:15 Speaker 02 The thing, one of the things that's so magical about Audrey is like, I think she is somebody that like... In the greatest way, talks to herself a lot, makes herself laugh a lot. So I think like I bring less of that to the table when I'm by myself. But I think it's one of the things that I've always valued about our friendship is that in the face of tough feelings, we're never not laughing somewhere.
12:39 Hrishikesh Hirway? I'd love to ask you about the bridge for this song because it feels so different from the verse and the chorus.
12:46 Speaker 02 I think most of the bridges on this album are like the kind of manic thought perspective, kind of like just going off, like rattling quite quickly. And I definitely wanted like rhythmically a change to happen. I was a dick, it is what it is. I was a dick, it is what it is. A habit to kick.
13:07 Speaker 03 Of something curse.
13:08 Speaker 02 A habit to kick, an age-old curse.
13:19 Speaker 02 When I'm writing lyrics and recording a voice memo, it's like so rarely actually in a speaking voice or a singing voice is it's like really ugly, horrible, like in-between like mumbling where I'm not even enunciating. I think it's like a mouthfeel thing, maybe, that I do that. I don't know what the fuck. So horrible.
13:39 Hrishikesh Hirway? What do you, what do you mean a mouthfeel thing?
13:40 Speaker 02 Just like how a word like sort of sits in your mouth.
13:46 Speaker 02 It's stupid, but it's, I'm always so embarrassed.
13:48 Hrishikesh Hirway? No, no, I like that. I think you're right. I see what you're saying.
13:52 Speaker 02 You are being very generous that you're saying you know what I mean.
13:55 Hrishikesh Hirway? No, I think, because you don't just have to consider what the word means and how it relates to whatever the lyric is before, but you have to think about the actual, I think mouthfeel is the right word.
14:08 Speaker 02 Right?
14:08 Hrishikesh Hirway? Yeah. So there's another voice memo that I have from you that is basically a demo of the whole song. And it's not just you singing, it's you and Audrey both singing?
14:18 Speaker 02 Yes.
14:33 Hrishikesh Hirway? Okay, so that moment where, at the end of the bridge, she goes up to "wrong again", how much thought and conversation had gone into that? Or was that just something that she just did?
14:45 Speaker 02 Pure riff.
14:46 Hrishikesh Hirway? Really?
14:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, literally, yeah. This was the first time that I was writing with a friend who has a fucking amazing voice, whose personality is more extroverted than mine is when I'm alone, who like, when we are recording, will go off like she did in this voice memo. And that inspires me. And I had not been somebody that even considered being more extroverted with my vocals.
15:45 Hrishikesh Hirway? My conversation with Gracie Abrams continues after this.
15:51 Hrishikesh Hirway? Thanks to Steo for sponsoring Song Exploder. I took a trip to Iceland this summer. And because it was the summer, I didn't really think about dressing for the cold. Even though I was hiking and I was planning on seeing some glaciers, I thought, it's August. But then I got there and I realized I made a huge mistake. Now, though, I have a Steo Hometown Hooded Jacket. And I just wished I'd gotten it before my trip. All of Steo's clothes are designed and tested in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, by locals who live, work, and ski in below-freezing temperatures. I'm headed back out into the cold this winter. But now I'll have my insulated- Stio jacket. Ski season's almost here, so gear up now the way the locals do.
16:35 Hrishikesh Hirway? Go to stio.com/songexploder for 20% off your order. That's S-T-I-O dot com slash songexploder. Stio dot com slash songexploder. Stio, designed and tested in Jackson Hole. I've talked about Quince before on the show and how some of my favorite clothes are things that I've gotten from their website, but they have a lot of categories beyond clothes. For example, I just ordered a cotton velvet tree skirt, which is the thing that goes around the Christmas tree to hide the stand and the cords from the lights and stuff. And it also catches pine needles. I grew up with an artificial tree, so I'm kind of new to the ways of having a real
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17:57 Hrishikesh Hirway? In every legendary music career, there's a moment right before it all changes. And in every episode of this podcast, Nile Rodgers talks to a legendary musician about the choices, the events and the relationships that shaped their career before the moment that everything changed for them. Every story is unique and opens a window into the lives of some of the biggest names in music. And Nile is the perfect person to lead these conversations because for over 50 years, he's played guitar with artists like Diana Ross, David Bowie, Madonna, Daft Punk and Beyonce. In the first season of the podcast, some of Nile's guests include John Legend, Miguel and more. New episodes are coming out every other Tuesday.
18:41 Hrishikesh Hirway? Listen to Before the Moment with Nile Rodgers wherever you get your podcasts.
18:50 Hrishikesh Hirway? So after you finished writing the song, how did you end up working with Aaron Dessner as the producer?
18:56 Speaker 02 I had been a fan of The National since I was like 11 years old. Like, as soon as I got an iPod, I was listening to The National all the time. And I think it was like, kind of that pre-teen and then like teen angst, you know, where their sad dad thing, like that to me-
19:12 Hrishikesh Hirway? As a 12-year-old girl?
19:14 Speaker 02 For some reason, as a 12-year-old girl, yeah, like, really hit. So I was a huge fan for years and years and years.
19:25 Hrishikesh Hirway? Who's playing this guitar part?
19:27 Speaker 02 Aaron is.
19:28 Hrishikesh Hirway? I'm curious why that is, because you played the guitar in the demo. So why did you have him play the guitar part?
19:35 Speaker 02 Uh, he's a fucking genius at guitar. He is so good, you know, for the sake of time, which we didn't have much of. I was like, you'll nail this the first time, and then we can build the rest of the world. I knew I wanted it to stay on acoustic guitar. I knew I wanted lap steel.
20:00 Speaker 02 I wanted it to feel full and warm.
20:12 Speaker 02 Two August ago, I told the truth. Oh, but you didn't like it. You went home. You're in your pants and by the gate.
20:26 Hrishikesh Hirway? So how does the story unfold in this first verse?
20:31 Speaker 02 I came to this person with feelings that were real. It didn't align with maybe what they wanted or expected.
20:40 Speaker 02 They drove away. I stayed at home. And then I had this petty line in the song, just, "We're not together. You go alone to all these events, to all these dinners, all these things." Like, you're primed for this kind of group of people, this environment. You're wildly charming. It works. But like, I'm over here judging it like a dick.
21:05 Speaker 01 Now you go alone, charm all the people you train for. You mean well but aim low.
21:13 Hrishikesh Hirway? That's a great vicious line. "You mean well but aim low." That's brutal.
21:18 Speaker 02 That's fucked up. That's the petty part. And then, immediately, I was just like, okay, it would be nice if we can make this song feel like there are chapters to it, where it's like, we're not just living in one tiny moment, but we're like past, present, future.
21:35 Speaker 01 Two summers from now, well, I've been talking, but not all that often. We're cool now. I'll be on a boat, you're on a plane, going somewhere same.
21:52 Speaker 02 "I'll be on a boat, you're on a plane, going somewhere same" is one of my favorite parts of the song. I just like the concept of being softer with each other and having our own lives, and they are separate.
22:06 Speaker 01 'Cause that's just the way life goes. I push my luck, it shows. Thankful you don't send someone to kill me.
22:21 Speaker 02 I know that I hurt your feelings to an extent where I guarantee you, like, your best friend doesn't like me very much anymore. I have been careless in the past about people's experiences on the other side of writing something. And I was not, until this past year, careful with how it might feel to be on the receiving end of a song being about you. And having seen the way that it makes people feel, I don't want to make people feel that way.
22:57 Hrishikesh Hirway? You have a song from a few years ago called "I Miss You, I'm Sorry." I feel like it can't be a coincidence that this song title follows the same sort of format. So, did you already have the idea that you wanted to fit the words "I love you, I'm sorry" into what you were writing?
23:12 Speaker 02 So, I had written "I Miss You, I'm Sorry" about the same person, wrote that song years ago. And it kind of felt like the first time I had put a song out where I felt like the response from strangers was not just, "Oh, I like this." But when I looked at the comments under the YouTube video, it was like paragraphs of people's stories. And that was really important for me. And then after, for like years, I had written different versions of songs of like, "I Hate You, I'm Sorry." For some reason, something about that song just got in my head. It's like a, I like this as like a pillar.
24:04 Speaker 02 That's Audrey.
24:05 Hrishikesh Hirway? And there's more than one track of her vocals?
24:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:16 Speaker 02 When Audrey came to Long Pond, she'd just fucking rip. Like rip in the vocal booth in a way where like Erin and I and Bella, who's a brilliant engineer, would like be out in the room. Like, holy shit, that's so fucking awesome.
24:45 Speaker 02 The thing that I love so much about singing with her is that like, I think our voices do a thing together where it's like, it almost feels like one thing versus two things.
25:15 Speaker 02 I want since on everything.
25:23 Speaker 02 Especially because I think when Aaron and I are together, we can make things that feel very woodsy and very folky and like that they like belong to a witch.
25:34 Speaker 02 So I wanted there to be some lift. I wanted it to feel a little bit glittery and amidst the warmth of the guitar and the slide.
25:51 Speaker 02 Because I feel like, you know, maybe people, when they're listening to the song, you're not necessarily hearing those things, but you feel them.
26:08 Hrishikesh Hirway? There are also these beautiful strings.
26:10 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
26:13 Hrishikesh Hirway? Can you tell me about these parts?
26:14 Speaker 02 Rob Moose, genius. I think it just brings a level of emotion that, you know, nothing else does.
26:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'd like to work with him forever.
26:38 Hrishikesh Hirway? You said that it was around Christmas time when you wrote this. What year was that?
26:43 Speaker 02 2023.
26:44 Hrishikesh Hirway? OK, so it hasn't been two summers.
26:48 Speaker 02 No.
26:48 Hrishikesh Hirway? But how do you feel about the song now, looking back at it a year later?
26:54 Speaker 02 It feels kind of like a tiny little prophecy, I think. I remember sending him the song when it was done. I was just like, the sentiment is real. Here you go. I literally love you and I'm so sorry. This is me fantasizing. This is me like desperately wanting to be in a place someday where it doesn't feel heavy and like knives every time there's an interaction. It doesn't feel like too casual or too intense. It just is like solid, easy and like real friends.
27:37 Speaker 02 And if I can be so presumptuous to say, I think it, I think it's working. I think it's working.
27:57 Hrishikesh Hirway? And now here's "I Love You, I'm Sorry" by Gracie Abrams in its entirety.
28:02 Speaker 01 Two Augusts ago, I told the truth, oh, but you didn't like it. You went home. You're in your pants, I'm by the gate.
28:19 Speaker 01 Now you go alone, charm all the people you train for. You mean well, but aim low. And I'll make it known, like I'm getting paid.
28:34 Speaker 01 That's just the way life goes. I like to slam doors closed. Trust me, I know it's always about me. I love you, I'm sorry. Two summers from now, we'll have been talking, but not all that often. We're cool now. I'll be on a boat, you're on a plane, going somewhere safe. And I'll have a drink, whisperly, lean out my window and watch the sunset on the lake.
29:17 Speaker 01 I might not feel real, but it's okay.
29:23 Speaker 01 'Cause that's just the way life goes. I push my luck, it shows. Thankful you don't send someone to kill me.
29:39 Speaker 01 I love you, I'm sorry. You were the best, but you were the worst. As sick as it sounds, I loved you first. I was a dick, it is what it is. I happen to kick the age-old curse. I tend to laugh whenever I'm sad. I stare at the crash, it actually works. Making amends, the shit never ends. I'm wrong again, wrong again. The way life goes, joy riding down our road. Lay on the horn to prove that it haunts me. I love you, I'm sorry. The way life goes, I wanna speak in code.
30:21 Speaker 01 Hope that I don't make it about me. I love you, I'm sorry.
30:36 Hrishikesh Hirway? To learn more, visit songexploder.net. You'll find links to buy or stream "I Love You, I'm Sorry", and you can watch the music video, which was directed by Gracie's co-writer, Audrey Hobart.
30:47 Hrishikesh Hirway? This episode was produced by Craig Ely, Theo Balcom, Kathleen Smith, Mary Dolan, and myself. Our production assistant is Tiger Biscum. The episode artwork is by Carlos Lerma, and I made the show's theme music and logo. Song Exploder is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent, listener-supported, artist-owned podcasts. You can learn more about our shows at radiotopia.fm. If you'd like to hear more from me, you can sign up for my newsletter, which you can find on the Song Exploder website. And you can get a Song Exploder t-shirt at songexploder.net/shirt. I'm Rishi K. Shirway. Thanks for listening.
31:32 Hrishikesh Hirway? Radiotopia.
31:35 Hrishikesh Hirway? From PRX.
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