Pod Insights Betwixt The Sheets: The History of Sex, Scandal & Society History of Red Lipstick About this episode Red lipstick has a unique feminine power to it.
It's been on the lips of some of the most influential people in history, including Cleopatra and Elizabeth I, and really took off in the 20th century.
Why did it take on such an iconic status with the Suffragette movement? Why did Churchill choose not to ration lipstick? And why did Hitler hate it?
Joining Kate today is journalist and red lipstick aficionado, Rachel Felder, author of Red Lipstick: An Ode To A Beauty Icon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Lipstick-Ode-Beauty-Icon/dp/0062844261, to help us unpack the power of this make-up essential.
This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long.
All music from Epidemic Sounds
Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe.
You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK.
Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast.
Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa
Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kate Lister? Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.
0:37 Speaker 01 The youth mental health crisis is growing, and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression, and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safer phones and watches for kids with no social media, tailored to every age, offering the right tech at the right time. Or tech in steps. From GPS tracking-enabled watches for younger kids, to phones with parent-enabled apps for teens, each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Visit gab.com/getgab and use code GETGAB for an exclusive offer.
1:19 Speaker 01 That's G A B B dot com forward slash get gab. Gab - tech in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for parents.
1:28 Speaker 02 Hi folks, it's Farneesh Taurabi from the So Money Podcast, here to talk about NerdWallet Wealth Partners. They offer free tools for high earners who'd actually like an answer. Like their calculator that estimates if you're on track for financial independence. Plug in a few numbers to see how your savings path may support your goals. Or their wealth-building checklist for high earners. It's a step-by-step guide for prioritizing your dollars once you're making six figures. And if you still have questions, you can connect with one of their financial advisors, who specializes in working with high earners in their 30s and 40s. Learn more at nerdwalletwealthpartners.com/so money. NerdWallet Wealth Partners LLC is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Registration as an investment advisor does not imply a certain level of skill or training,
2:10 Speaker 02 nor does it constitute an endorsement by any securities regulator. Please see nerdwalletwealthpartners.com for disclosures and important information.
2:19 Speaker 03 The Quarter Pounder with Cheese is made with 100% fresh beef, cooked when you order it. Then comes the melted cheese, the slivered onions, the pickles, the ketchup and the mustard. Add hot crispy fries and an iced cold Coke, all for $8. And if things go well, one loose fry at the bottom of the bag. The Quarter Pounder with Cheese meal, now $8. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba.
2:50 Kate Lister? Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets. But before we can get going, I have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adult, other adults, about adulty things in an adulty way, covering a range of adult subjects and you should be an adult too. And we need to tell you that because if you happen to keep listening and you get upset, well, then that might be on us. But if we tell you, that one's on you. Right, on with the show.
3:18 Kate Lister? Welcome to the golden age of Hollywood, darling Betwixters. As we arrive on the red carpet with stars such as Rita Hayworth and, oh, look, there's Marilyn. Hi, Marilyn. Or Miss Monroe to you. There's one thing that is impossible to ignore, the bold red lipstick. It's as iconic as any of the stars who wear it. And yes, I am including myself as a star because I love a red lip. But what are the origins of this standout look? And what's its impact been throughout history? Well, pucker up because we are going to find out.
3:59 Kate Lister? What do you look for, madam? Oh, money, of course. You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs
4:07 Speaker 04 by just turning a knob and pushing the button.
4:16 Speaker 04 Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, what a beautiful time. Goodness has nothing to do with it, darling.
4:27 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome back to Betwixt the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. I will make no secret of the fact that I am a huge, huge fan of red lipstick. I love it. And I join a lineage of women, and I'm certain actually, a lot of men too, who've enhanced their look with a splash of red throughout the ages. Cleopatra, Queen Elizabeth I and Marilyn Monroe, to name but three. What made red lips stand the test of time? What was it made from in its earliest uses? And what role did it have to play in the Second World War? Well, joining me today is Rachel Felder, journalist, author and fellow fabulous wearer of red lipstick. And she is going to help us find out more about this makeup essential.
5:12 Kate Lister? And if cosmetic histories are your bag, then why not scroll back and listen to our episode on beauty culture in the Renaissance with none other than the fabulous Jill Burke? Lippy at the ready, Betwixters? Let's crack on.
5:28 Kate Lister? Hello and welcome to Betwixt the Sheets. It's only Rachel Felder. How are you doing?
5:34 Speaker 05 I'm doing so well and I get to talk about my most favourite subject in the world today, so I'm excited.
5:40 Kate Lister? It's one of my favourite subjects too. I am a red lipstick girlie. I absolutely love this stuff. And you are the author of, let's give it its full title, Red Lipstick: An Ode to a Beauty Icon. So the first question, what made you want to write this book?
5:55 Speaker 05 Well, I've been writing about beauty, including lipstick, for several decades for a lot of outlets, but mostly the New York Times. And I've been wearing red lipstick personally since I was a teenager. And for me, it was a way to rebel because in the era that I started to wear lipstick, young teenage years, like many people, the look was that women had very narrow lips and they wore little bubblegum pink, pale, shiny lipstick. And I have these very full lips that that never looked good on.
6:29 Kate Lister? She does. I'm looking at them right now, everybody.
6:31 Speaker 05 Well, bless you.
6:31 Kate Lister? She does have very full lips.
6:33 Speaker 05 Bless you. And I also was very, very, very into punk rock music, including female singers like Debbie Harry and Suzy Sue. That led me to wearing bright lipstick as a type of rebellion. And for the first couple of years, I wore fuchsia and orange, anything bright. And then I realized that the red somehow had the rebellious streak, but also was super fashionable and classic. It's like somehow modern and classic. And as it became kind of a de facto trademark for me, I delved into, even before I started writing the book, the sociology of it and the semiotics of it.
7:17 Speaker 05 And it seems to me that to study red lipstick is to study cultural history.
7:23 Kate Lister? Yes.
7:23 Speaker 05 And so that's the long version of how I got to writing the book.
7:27 Kate Lister? I adore red lipstick for all the reasons that you've just said. Occasionally, I try and go back to a nude or a pink or something. And there's just something in my brain that's like, nope, I want it to be red. I have this theory that even if you have nothing else on your face, if you put red lipstick on, you look better.
7:43 Speaker 05 Well, I think your theory is completely correct. And my testing of your theory is the dog run twice a day. Because I feel like, you know, good that I put on the lipstick in the lift without looking in a mirror. And people do think you're together. I mean, in my book, there are comments from several people, including Paloma Picasso, who admitted in, when I interviewed her, that she was quite shy, actually. And the lipstick, in part, was the red lipstick, was something she wore so that people would think that she was confident, when actually she kind of wasn't so confident.
8:18 Kate Lister? Wow.
8:19 Speaker 05 I think for many people, it's both a sword and a shield.
8:25 Speaker 05 Well, thank you. Maybe I should be a writer when I grow up.
8:28 Kate Lister? Maybe you should give it a go.
8:30 Speaker 05 Indeed. But there is this thing of people assume that you're confident and kind of ballsy if you're wearing it. And I believe that's one of the reasons why many people, many women, would wear red lipstick to go into a meeting, that it makes them feel polished. But it's interesting you say that about putting on the red lip, that you can't imagine not doing it. Because I think the other element which connects into modern history is that many of us have a memory of a parent, a grand, an aunt that wore the red lipstick, perhaps to get dressed up to go out, or perhaps just because in the era that they were in their
9:12 Speaker 05 prime, wearing red lipstick was a thing. For me, it was my grand. She wore red lipstick every single day. And I sort of aspire to being a mix of her and Elizabeth Taylor in the 1950s when I put on my red lipstick.
9:27 Kate Lister? Oh, wow. It has a really, really long history as well. I mean, cosmetics has an incredibly long history. As long as there have been people with faces, we've been putting stuff on them to try and look better. But what is some of the earliest evidence that you have found or been aware of, of people putting red, specifically red, on their lips?
9:47 Speaker 05 I did a lot of research for the book. I spoke to historians and scientists and cosmetic experts and many, many other types of people in addition. So the beginning of reddening the lips, we'll get to calling it lipstick in a second, but the beginning of reddening the lips goes back to about 3,500 B.C. in the Middle East.
10:08 Kate Lister? That's pretty far.
10:09 Speaker 05 It's pretty far. And people then would reden their lips often with red ochre, so it was more of a sort of rusty red. And the color that was left on the lips, that is, you would grind it up. And as time went on, the color of red your lips were became a delineator of class. Like, for example, in ancient Egypt, the civilians, so to speak, would use the products like red ochre to red in their lips. And Cleopatra would use a product that's still used today called coquinelle, which is made of crushed beets. And it's truly in like quite a lot of lipsticks that you could buy in a department store today. And that red is much more crimson.
10:53 Speaker 05 But to fast forward to the word lipstick, there wasn't really lipstick in a modern way until the late 1800s. Guerlain in 1884 created a lipstick, really the first modern lipstick, called Nublie Mepa. Do not forget me. And it was in a little tin tube. But it wasn't until the early 1900s that the quote unquote bullet that we are so used to today was invented and that was designed to resemble World War I bullets, actually. And then in 1924, the push-up tube was invented. And that was sort of when lipstick became a thing as opposed to a pot of a reddened product
11:38 Speaker 05 that you could dabble on in the privacy of your own home.
11:41 Kate Lister? It's amazing when you look back at the history how it comes to mean different things for different eras. So we know that Queen Elizabeth I, full face of makeup, like full glam. She was white, ash and white lead with coal eyelids and she had red lipstick on. And then you kind of move forward. You've got the 18th century, those sky-high wigs and loads of makeup again. And then the Victorians come in and they're very like, um, no, I think only whores wear makeup, actually. We will do no makeup, make makeup. Somewhere along the line, it gets an association with sexiness, with promiscuity. I mean, it's got lots of meanings, multiple meanings. But somewhere along the line, it picked that one up, that it's naughty.
12:27 Speaker 05 Well, it's naughty, which is one of the most fabulous things about it. But the thing about a red mouth is scientists have found that people pay more attention to you if your mouth is red. And quite a few scientists believe that there's a correlation between a reddened mouth and a engorged labia. And, you know, that's in the book too. So that connection isn't really a stretch. The beginning of this deep connection, this blaring connection between sexuality and the red lip, I would say was in the Egyptian era when prostitutes, both female and male,
13:09 Speaker 05 would wear red lipstick as almost like an on sign to say they were ready for business and also to kind of suggest that they were good at blowjobs.
13:18 Kate Lister? Nice, nice.
13:20 Speaker 05 Yeah.
13:22 Kate Lister? Well, I mean, it was a long time before the internet, right? And leaving little papyrus up in the Egyptian, equivalent of phone boxes. It does pick up that it's slutty and naughty. And it's interesting to see people rebelling against that or embracing that at certain points in history. And when it becomes in a bullet in the 20th century, now it's starting to take on political overtones as well. You wrote about the suffragettes and their use of red lipstick.
13:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the thing about red lipstick that's unique is it's powerful, but it's feminine power. It's not just saying, "Don't mess with me, I'm in control here." It's saying, "I'm a woman, don't mess with me, I'm in control here." And it's really unique in that way. I mean, if you think about, I'm gonna, we're gonna go back to the suffragettes in a second. But if you think about what you might wear if you were the chief executive of a company and you want today, and you wanted to seem commanding, you might wear a blazer. Well, that's a men's item. That just is power that's not linked to sex. You might have a fancy fountain pen. You might have a briefcase. You might wear loafers or brog...
14:36 Speaker 05 All these things are men's things that women can adopt. The red lip is a female thing. So for the suffragette movement in America, in the UK, in France, it was the ultimate symbol of female power to wear red lipstick. Because, as I say, it's not just strength, it's female strength and feminist strength. And I say in the book, which to me is so genius, that Elizabeth Arden, she had a store on Fifth Avenue and Fifth Avenue in New York City was a place that during the suffragette movement, there were marches quite regularly.
15:18 Speaker 05 And she saw this as a marketing tool because the red lip was, you know, pretty much a uniform of the women arguing for the right to vote here. And so she had her staff stand on Fifth Avenue with boxes full of red lipstick and handed them out to the marchers. Yeah, so she used it as for marketing. And it's the kind of thing people would do today, you know? It was really ahead of its time.
15:45 Kate Lister? I wonder why the suffragettes honed in on red lipstick? Because they had a very complex reputation in the wider world. Some people were obviously right on Sisters You Go For It, but it was very easy to characterize them as deranged, hysterical women who shouldn't be given the vote. And certainly in Britain, there was a sort of a more conservative suffragettes who were like, no, no, we're going to do peaceful protest. And I'm wondering like, why they would have chosen red lipstick? Because that, I suppose it ran the risk of feeding into that narrative of they're bad women.
16:15 Speaker 05 I agree completely with what you're saying. But as I'm thinking of the uniform of that woman, the white dress, it's easy to fade into the background and also to give off the semiotic message that you're a traditional woman, like a nurse, for example, might have worn all white or a bride. So maybe someone just said, well, we need something to brighten this up and, you know, have people notice us. And that's one of the things I love so much. Much about red lip is that it's so ubiquitous and egalitarian. It doesn't have to be expensive. You and I are both wearing red lipstick now.
16:56 Speaker 05 If we were wearing a drugstore brand or the poshest brand there is, no one would really know the difference.
17:03 Kate Lister? That's true.
17:04 Speaker 05 And you can find red lipstick everywhere. And that's a big deal. It's like universal in that way, and it's truly global, too.
17:13 Kate Lister? What were they making it from when the suffragettes were donning their red lipstick? I'm thinking like, what is the wear power of it? Because if there's one downside to red lipstick, it's the fact that it comes off, ends up on coffee cups and on your sandwiches and possibly on penises, whatever it is that you've had in your mouth. And so try to find one that actually stays in place. That's the holy grail. But what was early red lipstick like?
17:36 Speaker 05 I'm gonna get to that in a second, but I'm happy to talk about how you keep your lipstick on during a blowjob, if you would like.
17:42 Kate Lister? I think we would, yes. Everybody settled in, get ready to take some notes.
17:47 Speaker 05 Excellent. I, you know, I have many fields of expertise, and one of them is how to keep the lipstick on during a blowjob. So we'll get to that momentarily. Listeners, stay tuned. But to answer your question about what it would have been made of and the fading off, the technology, so to speak, behind lipstick has evolved a lot in the last hundred or so years. And actually, red lipstick in that era probably would have stayed on really, really, really quite well. They would have used Coconell, Cochanel, like they still use today. And they would have used a high concentration of that pigment. And there would be wax to sort of lubricate it, like a medium, so to speak.
18:30 Speaker 05 And that could quite plausibly stay on super duper well. I mean, I have a few lipsticks from the 1950s, and they're completely indelible.
18:39 Kate Lister? Really?
18:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, and it's about the lubricants, so to speak. Perhaps that's a nice segue into blowjobs. But the lubricants were a bit denser and the amount of pigment they used was higher. I mean, if you buy, I often wear cheap red lipstick from the drugstore. There's actually a brand, I buy it, Superdrug in the UK. That it's super duper cheap. I've been using it since I was a teenager. I happen to love it. So one doesn't need to go expensive for lipstick. And often the cheaper ones use less beautiful emollient ingredients and more pigment. And thus they stay on longer. So I think the issue for the women of the twenties, thirties and forties
19:25 Speaker 05 might well have been getting it off, not having it stay on.
19:29 Kate Lister? Didn't know that. I assumed it would have just been like a kind of like all over the face kind of an affair. Oh, I'm very pleased to hear that.
19:35 Speaker 05 Yes, although there's a couple of things I want to add. One is they wouldn't have had lip liner then. And lip liner is a very good way to have it not schmear, so to speak.
19:44 Kate Lister? Yes.
19:44 Speaker 05 The other thing is, you know, in my book, one of the things I loved writing about was how the lipstick and cosmetic industry became a way for women to be successful executives in eras that that was unacceptable or unheard of, like Coco Chanel, for example. And I mean, you know, Coco Chanel was this mega executive selling and selling red lip in two ways, one on lipstick specifically, but also she wore red lipstick and was kind of this influencer of her time. But she couldn't vote for decades after she founded her company. Women in France couldn't vote until after World War Two.
20:28 Speaker 05 The reason I mention that is that there was a magnificent woman, Hazel Bishop, and she created in the fifties a super duper long last lipstick. And that was what she touted about that lipstick, that she had studied chemistry in university. She'd planned to be a doctor and here in the States, that's a second degree and her family couldn't afford to send her to medical school. And so she used her chemistry background to create a ultra-long wear red lip.
21:00 Kate Lister? I'll be back with Rachel after this short break.
21:17 Kate Lister? Autumn is underway at last, which means the nights are closing in and everything in nature feels like it's just slowing down, except us, of course. For most of us, me included, the world still has a lot of demands on us that can feel like a lot to deal with. There will be a time in all of our lives when we could use therapy, but often when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. Finding a therapist is hard enough, but finding one who actually takes your insurance? That's where most online therapy platforms fall short. Many don't work with insurance at all, which means you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription.
22:01 Kate Lister? Ruler does things differently. They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average co-pay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit ruler.com/shetssheets to get started. That's R U L A dot com forward slash S H E E T S, sheets. You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.
22:40 Speaker 02 Hi folks, it's Farnoosh Turabi from the So Money Podcast, here to talk about NerdWallet Wealth Partners. They offer free tools for high earners who'd actually like an answer, like their calculator that estimates if you're on track for financial independence. Plug in a few numbers to see how your savings path may support your goals. Or their wealth-building checklist for high earners. It's a step-by-step guide for prioritizing your dollars once you're making six figures. And if you still have questions, you can connect with one of their financial advisors who specializes in working with you. With high earners in their 30s and 40s. Learn more at nerdwalletwealthpartners.com/so money. NerdWallet Wealth Partners LLC is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Registration as an investment advisor does not imply a certain level of skill or training, nor does it constitute an endorsement by any securities regulator.
23:25 Speaker 02 Please see nerdwalletwealthpartners.com for disclosures and important information.
23:30 Speaker 03 The Quarter Pounder with Cheese is made with 100% fresh beef, cooked when you order it. Add hot crispy fries and an ice cold Coke, and hopefully a lot of napkins. All for $8. Ba da ba ba ba.
23:45 Speaker 06 Ever wondered what it feels like to be a gladiator? Facing a roaring crowd and potential death in the Colosseum? Find out on the Ancients podcast from History Hit. Twice a week, join me, Tristan Hughes, as I hear exciting new research about people living thousands of years ago, from the Babylonians to the Celts to the Romans, and visit the ancient sites which reveal who and just how amazing our distant ancestors were. That's the Ancients from History Hit.
24:27 Kate Lister? All right, blowjobs, you've got to tell us about the blowjobs.
24:30 Speaker 05 Oh, yeah, blowjobs. So when my book came out, I went on kind of the Red Lipstick World Tour and did talks in quite a few countries and cities. And at the end of a book talk, typically, you know, you open up the talk for questions and then people can come by afterwards to get their book autographed. And the two questions I got asked all the time were, "How do I choose a red lipstick? Everybody says I should be wearing red lipstick. I'm intimidated." Or, "What shade should I wear?" And the other question was about blowjobs and red lipstick. So if people want to know, I guess.
25:05 Kate Lister? They want to know.
25:06 Speaker 05 Indeed. So if you really want the most ultra-long wear lipstick, you want to powder down your lips and you want a very neutral powder so you don't mess with the texture or color of the lipstick too much, let that set blot. Then use a lip liner all over your lip. Let it sit for a second to kind of settle and then use a long-wear red lipstick. Personally, I tend to use matte in a tube. I'm not the biggest fan of the liquid lip. I think it's super hard to control. For me, there's this emotional value of the stick that kind of harks back to ancestors and movie stars that you miss when you use a liquid lip.
25:51 Speaker 05 But put on the lipstick. If you're using a tube lipstick, I would blot and put on a second coat. You'll never get that off your lips. You could give two blowjobs with that.
26:04 Kate Lister? I've never, ever taken that much care with a lip. I don't care if it ends up looking like a candy cane, quite frankly. I'm just, you should just be quietly grateful that I'm there at all.
26:13 Speaker 05 Well, I mean, there's that school of thought too.
26:15 Kate Lister? But people want to know. People need to know this information, Rachel, and I'm glad you're here.
26:20 Speaker 05 It's important information. What can I say? You know, it's funny that we're talking about it because for me, removing my lipstick, nobody sees me without my red lipstick. So if ever anyone does, it is true nudity to me. I feel much more naked without lipstick than being actually naked.
26:40 Kate Lister? We should talk about the world wars because I hadn't realised the role that lipstick plays in like galvanising women going out to work and for the war effort, but it did.
26:51 Speaker 05 It really did. There's many layers to that, that as I was working on the book, I knew some of them. But as I started to roll up my sleeves and do the research, I just found it increasingly more fascinating. So basically, part one, women had to work jobs that they had never traditionally worked at during World War Two because the men were all fighting. So women had to work in factories and that was, of course, a very patriotic thing to do. But for women that were accustomed to being home and wearing red lipstick and, you know, preparing a nice dinner for their man, to not wear the red lipstick was to not be themselves, to not look like themselves in the mirror.
27:36 Speaker 05 So, again, red lipstick became an image of power, but female power. You know, in America, we had on posters Rosie the Riveter, but the women in the UK and America and elsewhere that went to go work in factories, wearing the red lipstick was a sort of empowered defiance of, "You're taking our men?" Well, that doesn't matter. We're gonna work towards the war effort. We're gonna work, we're gonna keep busy. And then there's the element of, without the red lipstick, they didn't look like themselves. So Winston Churchill, for example, really understood that and didn't ration red lipstick
28:17 Speaker 05 when many other things were rationed, because he knew how important it was for the morale of women.
28:23 Kate Lister? Wow.
28:24 Speaker 05 Yeah, it was big. Now, part three is that Adolf Hitler famously hated red lipstick. So if your mouth was red, you were making a statement against Hitler in a unspoken but unavoidable way by reddening your mouth.
28:41 Kate Lister? Is that because the Nazis and the Third Reich were all about domesticity and pushing women away from the workplace, basically, and that they should stay at home and raise beautiful blond-haired babies?
28:54 Speaker 05 Well, my fields of expertise are red lipstick and blowjobs, not Nazism.
28:59 Kate Lister? Well, yeah, don't add that into theirs either. You can, you can do this without Nazis, I think.
29:03 Speaker 05 I, I, I think I'm gonna leave that off my CV, but I'm just connecting dots that there was an Aryan ideal that red lipstick just wasn't part of.
29:13 Kate Lister? Yeah, that, that sounds about right to me. But we should talk about classic Hollywood, and we've definitely got to talk about Marilyn, because if anyone is super associated with the red lip, it's got to be Marilyn Monroe.
29:25 Speaker 05 That's it. I mean, there's, there's no easier way to say I'm sexy than to wear a glossy red lip. And Marilyn Monroe understood that better than anybody. And actually, I'm glad you mentioned her specifically because a matte red lip often sends out a different signal than a glossy red lip. And, you know, there's something about the glossy finish that's moist, that kind of is one step closer to the bedroom. And I think a matte red lip is actually you and I are both wearing this morning, says more about power than literal
30:05 Speaker 05 sexuality necessarily. That's why someone like a Alexandria or Casio Cortez wears a matte red lip so often. So Marilyn, it just became an inherent part of her look and her communication of sexuality, that kind of fluid looking moist red lip.
30:28 Kate Lister? She wears a really dark red. When you actually look at it, like, I like a really vibrant, orangey red, but she's wearing, actually, I read that she's not just wearing one color, she's wearing several colors altogether to get that effect.
30:42 Speaker 05 This is exactly right. She has a darker color in a part of her lips that accentuates them more. And you can do that with lipstick and lip liner too. I mean, I know many people, I rock my wide lips. I'm proud of them now. But, you know, I know many people with wide lips that put the lip liner inside to minimize the look of the width of the lips. And I know many people with thinner lips that put the lip liner on the outside to make them seem bigger.
31:13 Kate Lister? Marilyn was in full technicolor by that point. But before then, in the era of black and white film, you couldn't have seen the red lipstick on the film. Were they still wearing red lips then? Was it still important to that glamour?
31:26 Speaker 05 So it was important because it was a symbol in that era of being a woman that was dressed Basically, I mean, remember the silent film era is the flapper era.
31:39 Kate Lister? Yes.
31:40 Speaker 05 Is the era that literal lipstick in Styx is something that was out there and available. But that because of the black and white technology at the time. The lip had to appear red, but they didn't actually use red. They used darker colors because it needed to really pop on the screen. Yeah.
31:58 Kate Lister? I didn't know that. And the flappers were the ones who they they kind of had that little bud lip, didn't they? Like that kind of like it was thin at the sides and then this little like kiss. I didn't know what you'd call that, this little pout thing.
32:11 Speaker 05 Cupid's bow.
32:12 Kate Lister? Thank you, Cupid's bow.
32:13 Speaker 05 You're welcome. That's what they were rather. They accentuated the Cupid's bow. So that's what it was. Yeah. I mean, look, there was something about the. Flappers look that was extreme and accentuated and marginally cartoony, you know. Dramatic and by accentuating the shape of the mouth, that was something that was a part of that look.
32:37 Kate Lister? Where did red lipstick go in the sixties? I'm just jumping forward because I'm trying to think. What were we doing in the sixties? There was a real clean hippie aesthetic where it was like, no, man, I don't need any makeup. I'm just gonna. Run through the wheat fields. And then there was Twiggy and the heavy eyes and very new. Where was red lips in the sixties?
32:55 Speaker 05 Very early sixties, like sixty one, sixty two, were still on matte red lips.
33:01 Kate Lister? Yeah.
33:01 Speaker 05 And then as the miniskirt came about and Twiggy and the big pronounced eyelashes and all that. The eyes became so prominent that the lips started to get very pale pink. And I should say that early sixties moment of red lip. The pale pink started to phase in at the very beginning of the sixties too. Okay, so then we get to the hippies, which were the very late sixties. And their look was so natural that the red lip didn't really play into that. And the only real pronounced lips until the mid seventies were, if you think about like Beba girls.
33:42 Speaker 05 And brilliant Barbe Huloniki, they had a pronounced lip, but it wasn't so red. It was usually more like what we would call Chanel vamp color today, like a sort of brownish. And that was, and black lipstick too, was part of that look. Uh, they had, Beba had a cosmetics line. But yeah, it wasn't until the punks used red lipstick.
34:05 Kate Lister? Vivienne Westwood.
34:06 Speaker 05 Vivienne Westwood, exactly. And it became kind of a statement of rebellion. And then the next big lip moment, red lip moment, that is, was mid eighties sort of. Think of Robert Palmer, Addicted to Love, Chade, Madonna in the very early days.
34:24 Kate Lister? Powersuits and red lip.
34:26 Speaker 05 Exactly right. That's when red lips became again, a big thing.
34:31 Kate Lister? Where do you think we are with red lips today? Because like you are, you are speaking to us from glorious New York City. American politics has been rather divisive of late. I have noticed even from this side of the pond. And women's rights is sort of at the center of that. And I've noticed this conversation spilling out onto social media and to in discussion forums. And there is emerging this very trad wife, clean aesthetic that's being held up by some groups as being, this is the ideal woman. And I've seen makeup being spoken about as if, again, it's being associated with whores and sluts and falseness. And what's your take on where makeup is today for women and where we're going to take it?
35:16 Speaker 05 Well, the great thing about today's world is that it's an inclusive world. And what you're talking about is one type of person in the States or anywhere. We live in a world of diverse voices that don't always click and have their own perspective. So I would argue that juxtaposed with the type of people you're mentioning, there are the people that say it's a time for boldness and statement and freedom. And you know, I love seeing men in red lipstick.
35:52 Kate Lister? Seeing a man in red lipstick.
35:53 Speaker 05 Yeah, and I love seeing Taylor Swift in red lipstick. And I love seeing a younger generation of women feeling like red lipstick is a expression of power and style and savvy and success and wanting to wear it. So I would say we live in a world that embraces all sorts of different perspectives. And red lipstick is a expression of one of those perspectives.
36:22 Kate Lister? It's good that it's still a bit edgy, though. It's still got that slight fuck you about it.
36:28 Speaker 05 It's never gonna be quiet. So it's something that's quiet is gonna be to many people edgy. I mean, to me, the red lipstick, if it's beautifully applied and a classic shade, for me, it doesn't really feel so edgy anymore. For me, it feels more confident and polished and elegant. I would never not wear red lipstick to the opera, for example. It makes me feel dressed, you know.
36:59 Kate Lister? I get a lot of emails about my lipstick from people that watch me doing various things. And a lot of them say, I really love your lipstick. What is it? And then it's always followed up with, I'm not confident enough to wear it. Which I always wanna like just give them a big hug and be like, oh. What do you say to somebody who they like red lipstick? They wanna wear it, but they just don't. How do you like even start on your red lipstick journey? What would be your advice?
37:26 Speaker 05 I get asked this question all the time. This is like my number one question from people. And I would say there are many entry gateway drugs into red lipstick obsession. So you could get a red tinted lip balm, for example.
37:42 Kate Lister? Ah, or a lip stain.
37:44 Speaker 05 Or a lip stain or a gloss that has some red tint to it. And that would be much easier to wear. And also, you don't necessarily have to do an intense shade of red. You could do something that's a little more orange. Orangey with many complexions. That's really, really beautiful. Or you could do something that was just a little less pronounced, a little less pigmented, you know. The suggestion I give to people always is to go to a drugstore and put aside little money, doesn't cost a lot, and buy a few and just try them at home and try them walking around. You need, lipstick is really hard to buy in a store instantly,
38:30 Speaker 05 just like perfume. In the perfume world, there's a phrase, "dry down", which is about how a perfume smells on you after it's been on your skin for a while, because it's different with everybody. And I would say lipstick is quite similar. You kind of need to wear it and see. And that doesn't take a lot of investment. Buy some cheapy ones and play and figure out the shade and the format and the texture that suits you the best.
38:57 Kate Lister? Is there a shade that you think is a universally good shade of red? Because there are many shades of red. You've got dark red, deep red, light red, orangey red.
39:05 Speaker 05 Yellow red, blue red, all sorts of red, brownish red. Blue red tends to suit just about everybody. I always say that I have a wardrobe of red lipsticks. And to me, there are also these elements like mood and weather and cloudiness and humidity and context of where I'm wearing it. There's so many different elements. But if someone wanted to buy one red lipstick, I would suggest a blue red. But I'm not going to suggest a specific brand or texture because the ideal brand and texture to you might be different than the ideal one to me.
39:42 Kate Lister? Rachel, you have been marvelous to talk to today. Thank you so much. And if people want to know more about you and your work, where can they find you?
39:49 Speaker 05 Well, you can go to Instagram, @rachelfelder. You can buy the Red Lipstick Book, Red Lipstick: An Ode to a Beauty Icon, published by Harper Collins. You can Google me, and I write about this sort of subject a lot, and find my articles if you Google me. Thank you so much. This has been such a pleasure.
40:08 Kate Lister? It's been loads of fun. Thank you for coming on.
40:11 Speaker 05 Pleasure. Thank you so much.
40:18 Kate Lister? Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Rachel for joining me. And if you like what you heard, please don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. If you want us to explore a subject, or perhaps you wanted to send me samples of red lipstick, then you can email us at [email protected] . We've got episodes on everything from medieval lesbians and the origins of sexting all coming your way. This podcast was edited by Tom Delargy and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheets at History of Sex, Scandal and Society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music by Epidemic Sound.
41:03 Speaker 03 ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. Generate ideas in seconds, import your brand and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Get started for free at activecampaign.com.
41:18 Speaker 02 Hi folks, it's Farnoosh Turabi from the So Money Podcast, here to talk about NerdWallet Wealth Partners. They offer free tools for high earners who'd actually like an answer, like their calculator that estimates if you're on track for financial independence. Plug in a few numbers to see how your savings path may support your goals. Or their wealth building checklist for high earners. It's a step-by-step guide for prioritizing your dollars once you're making six figures. And if you still have questions, you can connect with one of their financial advisors who specializes in working with high earners in their 30s and 40s. Learn more at nerdwalletwealthpartners.com/so money. NerdWallet Wealth Partners LLC is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Registration as an investment advisor does not imply a certain level of skill or training, nor does it constitute an endorsement by any securities regulator.
42:03 Speaker 02 Please see nerdwalletwealthpartners.com for disclosures and important information.
42:26 Speaker 02 The.
Previous Inside the Brothel of Pompeii Next Medieval Lesbians Page updated November 5, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated