The Phone-Hacking Scandal: How Murdoch's UK Empire Fell (Part 3)

What was the phone-hacking scandal and how did it escalate into a major crisis? How was Alastair himself implicated? What did Rupert Murdoch's marriage to Wendi Deng mean for his family's fortune? Alastair is joined by two-time Rupert Murdoch biographer, Michael Wolff, to discuss all this and more. Unlock the full five-part mini-series The Rise and Fall of Rupert Murdoch – only with TRIP+. Members enjoy bonus episodes, ad-free listening, and early access to new shows. Start your 7-day free trial today at ⁠⁠therestispolitics.com⁠⁠ Written & Produced by: Nicole Maslen Video Editor: Josh Smith Social Producer: Celine Charles Filmed by: Charlie Rodwell Senior Producer: Callum Hill Artwork: Alistair Dixon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to The Rest Is Politics, Alistair here, not with Rory but with Michael Wolfe, because this week in our series on one of the 21st century's most significant figures, Rupert Murdoch, we're looking at one of his worst legacies within the UK, the scandal of phone hacking. When it was revealed that they were even hacking the phones of dead children, it shocked Britain to its core, exposed the very, very dark side of our media. If you're interested in a little more, we've left a clip for you here. To hear the full episode and get all the benefits of a TripPlus membership, sign up at restispolitics.com.

• 0:34Michael Wolff?

  Did you think that phone hacking would bring him down?

• 0:39Alastair Campbell?

  I thought it had the capacity to, not necessarily because of the crime itself, but because of their catastrophic handling of it. I mean, I can't remember what some were up to, but they're into the hundreds of millions in terms of the cost already. Now, in a sort of multi-billion company, that may not be so much, but I thought reputationally, if you can match the reputational damage to the financial damage, I could see that it might have done. And I thought the, his appearance at the Select Committee, when Wendy Deng probably first entered public consciousness here in a big way, because when the guy somehow smuggled through parliamentary security, accustomed to the pie, whatever it was, and of course, in a weird sort of way, I think that sort of helped Murdoch

• 1:22Alastair Campbell?

  in a bit, because that's what people remember about it. And then they remember Wendy, standing up and prepared to take this guy on, whereas James, who's sitting there, looking like a bit of a kind of wet fish, doesn't quite know what to do.

• 1:34Michael Wolff?

  No, and actually, because the marriage is breaking up at that point, although no one knows it, so Murdoch is pissed that she comes out looking like the hero.

• 1:45Alastair Campbell?

  I think the moment of maximum, maximum vulnerability was this revelation, which really shocked people, because when it was, when it was people like me and John Prescott and Hugh Grant, political people, celebrities, the public didn't really care. When it was

• 2:02Michael Wolff?

  Or they thought you deserved it.

• 2:04Alastair Campbell?

  Or that we deserved it, Michael, because we'd sold out Rupert Murdoch, which I'm grateful that you've retracted that statement earlier. When it emerged that Millie Dowler, this, who'd been murdered. And others who'd been kidnapped victims and children who'd been abducted, that they were actually hacking the phones of murdered children to find out whatever. You got to one point where Millie Dowler's parents, at this stage didn't know she was dead, were phoning and leaving messages to the extent that with all the other messages going on there, the voice box ended up being full. And the reason this was so horrific is because her parents were out of their minds with worry.

• 2:46Alastair Campbell?

  They're phoning constantly, leaving messages, and they get this message that the mailbox is full, and then they keep phoning, and after a while they can leave a message, so they think, oh my god, she's deleting her messages, that's great, that means she's alive. So this actually leads them to think she's alive, and that, I think, is what really cuts through to the public and thinks, you people are really, really bad. And that's what led to David Cameron, who people felt had been very soft on Murdoch for the obvious reasons, political, shipping nought, et cetera. That's what led to Cameron saying, we have to have this inquiry into press ethics, and that was the Leveson Inquiry.

• 3:27Michael Wolff?

  No, I mean, that's the point at which this, this, this story becomes, I mean, it becomes horrific. You know, the point is, is, is celebrities and politicians, well, maybe you do have something to hide and maybe they should find it out. But, but suddenly we're in this territory that, that of hacking people who have, who have nothing, I mean, they have no, this is not, not, there is no news value here. This is just human suffering that tabloids make their, some of their living on.

• 4:00Alastair Campbell?

  And it emerges, they've been doing, doing it to British soldiers, who've been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, to find out what their families are saying and doing, bombing victims in the 777 London. At bombings, the mother of another murder victim, an eight year old girl called Sarah Payne. So this is just off the scale. James Murdoch resigns.

• 4:20Michael Wolff?

  James is not only, not only resigns, he's basically forced out because within, certainly within the company, they believe that he may be arrested and they have to get him out of the country as fast as possible.

• 4:33Alastair Campbell?

  Andy Coulson is then arrested in July 2011. He's charged, he's convicted, he goes to prison. He's the only one of this whole escapade of the senior management that goes to prison. Rebecca Brooks, as we've said earlier, she was charged but not convicted and including her husband, who was also charged because there was laptops going missing, usual stuff. Then we have this committee appearance. They were obviously trained out of their, you know, they were media trained to the nth degree. Uh, but I don't think they really did themselves much good at that. Rebecca Brooks is then arrested July 2011, uh, but she gets off now.

• 5:14Michael Wolff?

  But she goes through a long trial, a long, you know, and it's, um, you know, I sat through that trial. Actually, I, I got, I got held in contempt for that trial.

• 5:23Alastair Campbell?

  Why?

• 5:24Michael Wolff?

  I don't, cause you, British laws are kind of.

• 5:27Alastair Campbell?

  What did you do?

• 5:27Michael Wolff?

  I just wrote something. Apparently you're not allowed to.

• 5:31Alastair Campbell?

  I, I. Well, you're allowed to write about, tell me what, what was you, you know, what education do we have to give you now, Michael? What, what, what did you do?

• 5:38Michael Wolff?

  I wrote about the trial.

• 5:41Alastair Campbell?

  And you said she's guilty.

• 5:42Michael Wolff?

  Yeah, I probably said that.

• 5:44Alastair Campbell?

  You can't do that, Michael.

• 5:46Michael Wolff?

  Well, in, in my country, you can.

• 5:49Alastair Campbell?

  I know you can, but that's why the rule of law is breaking down. Here you are innocent until proven guilty. Um, so then we have the Leveson inquiry and this I think is where your justified criticisms of us, the political class and our.

• 6:07Alastair Campbell?

  I think this is where it comes to a head. I am by now in what Tony Blair used to call my jihadic mode. I'm absolutely convinced this is the moment at which this wretched media culture in our country has to be changed and Cameron has the opportunity to do it. David Cameron said that if Lord Levison produces recommendations which are not bonkers, was his phrase, we will implement them. The regime that was brought in for press regulation was little more than a sort of, it was another win for the press. And what's more, Levison two, which wasn't happening at the time because of all the criminal investigations going on, which was into relations between News International and the police, that was

• 6:49Alastair Campbell?

  dropped subsequently by the Conservative government. So you talk about missed opportunities and blame it on me for not challenging Murdoch at the wedding. That was a massive missed opportunity and I still think we're paying a price.

• 7:02Michael Wolff?

  It's a broader discussion about whether you think the tabloid press has continued with its particular power, given the fact that the tabloid press is a shadow of what it once was, even fifteen years ago.

• 7:19Alastair Campbell?

  That's true. That is true. And as somebody who comes from a tabloid journalist background, I find that very sad on one level. But I think in a way, the good that was in tabloids had gone anyway. But I still think our media culture has been very, very badly damaged. I think it's damaged our broadcasters. Because I think the problem with our broadcasters today is they're still massively influenced by a written press. So even though the power, the sort of numbers of people who read the written press has gone down, their influence within the political debate is still pretty strong, even with social media, AI and all the other stuff that's coming along. So there we are. My God, we got through a lot in that episode, Michael.

• 7:58Michael Wolff?

  You know, I mean, it just goes that there is always a lot at every point in Murdoch's career. I mean, more than, more than in all other careers in some sense. I mean, because he's partly, partly because he's operating at so many, in so many different, different venues at a given period of time, but also because he's doubling down constantly.

• 8:23Alastair Campbell?

  Good. Well, that's this episode. And in the next episode, we're going to be back in the United States and we're going to be talking about the rise and rise of the Fox News. Be her moth alongside the rise and rise and fall and rise of Donald Trump.

• 8:38Michael Wolff?

  We'll see you then.

• 8:39Alastair Campbell?

  See you then, Michael.