The Cinderella Pacers Do It Again, Plus Trade Buzz From Indiana With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe to react to the Pacers taking a 2-1 lead against OKC in the NBA Finals (1:55). Then, they talk about Indianapolis as a sports city, Bennedict Mathurin’s impact, and SGA not playing well enough in Game 3 (24:28). Finally, they discuss what it would mean if OKC lost to the Pacers in the Finals, preview Game 4, and predict Kevin Durant trade destinations (51:05). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Zach Lowe Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo This episode is presented by State Farm®. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm® with the Assist. Get anything delivered on Uber Eats. www.ubereats.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every single day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes. Get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. It really isn't. Popeyes offer valid through November 1st. Add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout. Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by The Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find Zach Lowe's podcast.

• 0:45Bill Simmons?

  Whoa. Big free agent addition, the beginning of April. Now we're in a hotel room in Indiana. We just watched a stunning NBA Finals, Game Three. We have a very fancy tech setup. We're in my hotel room. I have my camera facing me. I have Zach's iPad facing him. They said we would have needed a video crew, right? We'd have people here, we'd have mics. We don't need that.

• 1:07Speaker 01

  We have cups with strings if need be attached to each other.

• 1:11Bill Simmons?

  You know what? We belong to the people. We can just put this together. We can just do this like the common man. We just watched an incredible game. Ringer Podcast Network, check out the rewatchables. We put up Working Girl. When are you going to be in the rewatchables, by the way?

• 1:22Speaker 01

  There's no one to ask me. People ask me, just ask me.

• 1:24Bill Simmons?

  Just, well, you have to come to LA is the problem.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  I like, I love Los Angeles.

• 1:28Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Well, you're going to be in the rewatchables at some point. Anyway, coming up, we're going to talk about an incredible Game Three that we both went to. It's all next. Let's take a break and we'll bring in Pearl Jam. This episode is presented by State Farm. It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years. And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more. Whether you need an in-person or digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full-court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life. Talk to State Farm today. State Farm, with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability and eligibility vary by state.

• 2:35Bill Simmons?

  All right, Zach Lowe. It is 11:43 Eastern Time. We are in Indianapolis, Indiana, a wonderful place. I had a great time today. Everybody's super friendly. People love this Pacers team. There was a sense of, boy, it would be adorable if they could just get a couple punches in. We kind of know where this series is going. Around the third quarter, I started to get flashbacks to the 2011 Finals when I was in Dallas. A Dallas team that did not make a lot of sense. And they're playing Miami, first year of LeBron, Wade, Bosch, just waiting for Miami to finish them off. And there was a point with the crowd and the energy and shots are going

• 3:18Bill Simmons?

  in and defensive plays where you kind of go, huh, what's going on here? And Indiana wins, and they're up two games to one. They're two games away from the 2025 NBA title, Zach Lowe.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  I'll tell you this right now. I was at Pacers practice yesterday. I've been around the Pacers a lot the last three weeks. The whole, like, we're playing with house money thing. It'd be nice if we got a punch or two in. None of that is filtered into them. They're like, oh, yeah, we can, we can win. Like, we're, we're as good as this team. We can beat this team. Like, none of that is, is applied to them. And I, you know, the whole discussion in the last 48, 72 hours has been, I've seen like a million stories you've talked about with Ryan, where does this team rank? And like, is the most unusual potential champion, the most unusual finalist, you know, blah, blah, blah, preseason odds. It's time to start just shifting the discussion to something happened, and this is now a championship level

• 4:17Speaker 01

  team. Because regardless of what happens from here on out, they are up 2-1 in the NBA Finals over a 68-win team. And that game tonight didn't feel fluky. It felt like two teams trading punches, a little ugly, a little grimy. People got tired, some bad shots were taken, some tough defensive possessions that were inflicted by both teams. And they made enough big plays. The bench was unbelievable. But like, the most unusual thing, like, that's cool. It's, it's gonna be good trivia, whether they win or lose. But like, something happened to this team, and they're just this good.

• 4:51Bill Simmons?

  First half, the basketball was about as high level as you're gonna get for a game three of the finals. Usually, it takes a couple of games. That was like a game four, game five level. It's like, oh, they're going toe to toe. They're doing all the, the benches are coming in and actually making an impact. They're running really smart offense. They're attacking the other side like they've seen them for a bunch of games. I was, halftime, I was just really impressed. Like talking to the people in my section, Tommy came over. I was like, that was just good basketball game. Tommy Halter stopped by.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Just ubiquitous.

• 5:24Bill Simmons?

  Wearing a Roots of Fight jacket, just super happy to be in Indiana. Um, third quarter starts.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Six zero run, Thunder, boom.

• 5:31Bill Simmons?

  And OKC comes out with, with some real physicality and some swagger. And it was like, all right, that was cute. That was a fun run by an N and just felt like it was gonna go the way of all these other OKC games. And once again, they climbed out of the hole.

• 5:48Bill Simmons?

  Halliburton was great. I don't want to do the Halliburton stepped up thing because I thought that was the worst storyline of the week. And I thought it was a fundamental misunderstanding of who Halliburton is as a player. A guy who takes 13 to 14 shots a game, who averages 19 and nine during the season and 19 and nine in the playoffs. He is who he is. This is Steve Nash in the mid 2000s was like this. Chris Paul in the late 2000s and 2010s were like this. These guys are not built to score 20, take 20, 22 shots a game. They're not 30 point scorers. They make everyone else better. That's the whole point of having them. They set the tone. They drive the car. You want to put them in an awesome car and let

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  them do their thing. With that said, I thought he was a little more aggressive in the first half.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  No question.

• 6:35Bill Simmons?

  He, he clearly was like, I can't let whatever happened last game happen again. So he took a couple of shots that weren't even great shots, but it was just, he was trying to get in the paint and he was trying to take, uh, more stuff. But I thought, he wasn't just awesome on offense. His hands were everywhere on defense. I don't know how many balls he touched, deflected, stole, but it felt like he was all over the place.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, he had a pick six against Shay. Shay had a couple of bad pass turnovers that went the other way. Six turnovers for Shay.

• 7:03Bill Simmons?

  Oof.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Indiana wins the turnover battle. That's step one to having any chance of beating the Thunder is like not, just not lose it by too much. They won it. I like Halliburton, I remember a long two, he took over at SGA in the first half. That was clearly just like an ISO, like they want me to move more aggressive. This is like, I gotta take this shot. He took a couple of threes where he just kind of pulled up like in like before using a screen or in between a switch. Like I got a little window, I gotta take it like I can't afford not to, not to take it. But the other stat is, he was great. Halliburton was awesome. Police sirens, I wonder if people can hear the police sirens. It's quite a scene walking from the arena, Tiro.

• 7:40Bill Simmons?

  Like, I would describe it as somewhere between joyous and euphoric.

• 7:44Speaker 01

  It was like you, it was the kind of scene I've seen when it's three, one and your team's on the verge of winning. Like there was a kid hanging out of a moving car. There was a guy in a Larry Bird Indiana State jersey, just running around yelling, police were high fiving people. It was great. Uh, anyway, Halliburton was awesome. Twenty two, eleven and nine. If you cared more about his stats, gotta chase that 10th rebound, you know, it's come on.

• 8:08Bill Simmons?

  Tyrese Haliburton, you gotta step up.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Get the triple double, man.

• 8:11Bill Simmons?

  Rebounds and step up.

• 8:12Speaker 01

  Steal a rebound from somebody. Halliburton was brilliant. Uh, still even so, stat of the game, Halliburton in a game they win by nine, just and I'd be, I'm being facetious, but just plus one and they had been getting destroyed in the non Halliburton minutes, which are also the non SGA minutes in the first two games. And they won those minutes decisively tonight. We know why the bench guys, Matherin, McConnell, Toppin, big fourth quarter for him. Those guys were plus 16, plus 12, plus 18. Two, by the way, two guys in Toppin and Matherin that have been the subject of, well, if the Pacers ever need to duck the luxury tax or cut their tax bills, they can just dump those guys. Dump those guys. They just won you an NBA finals game against a 68 win team. There's no dumping, no dumps will be taken with those guys.

• 8:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Pacers bench, what was it 32, 24? And they come in, TJ starts doing the TJ thing. They start pressing. He gets a steal, but whatever, it goes out of bounds. He does the thing where he goes to the side of the corner.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Hulk's up.

• 9:13Bill Simmons?

  Hulk's up in front of everybody and it was another supercharged thing for the crowd. They, cause they know like they need the energy from those guys. I said to you on Thursday, even though Matherin was terrible. I said, there's something, he looked comfortable to me out there. There was something athletically comfortable for him. And I was thinking today about just in general, watching the game, they have all these Canadians out there who have all known each other forever, you know, and it's one of the reasons Nemhard, I don't think anyone can really guard SGA, but he's probably looked the best doing it because he's been playing against him since, what, they were 12? He's just not afraid of him. And he knows all his moves. He doesn't fall for his herky jerky thing. He's just kind of always there. And then, you know, Matherin isn't afraid of anybody.

• 9:57Bill Simmons?

  He's the most irrational confidence guy you get. And then you flip it on the other side when we were talking about, um, you know, OKC looking a little young. They don't have that one guy. And again, we're nitpicking. I think that team's great. They don't have that one like crazy Matherin, he check, let me carry us for four minutes guy.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Well, they, it's the MVP. That's who it is.

• 10:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing. It's SGA and Jalen, but they don't have the random eighth guy that comes off the bench and does whatever. But so I'm trying to think like, if I'm Indiana, what am I taking away from that game, big picture? Because OKC looked young. We covered that piece. And they know that they can pressure them. They know that they can at least stay in the vicinity of guarding SGA. What are, like, what are the other big takeaways for you?

• 10:45Speaker 01

  Um, I, I think they could take away, number one, that Halliburton found the right balance in how he needs to play and is gonna, is growing comfortable more in this series to the point that like, I wonder if we see some adjustments from the Thunder defensively on him. I thought Indiana's defense minus their bigs are still having issues in the pick and roll against Shay. I thought they amped up the pressure in the second half. They started blitzing him a little bit more and like Mick just mixed in different stuff. But minus those kind of breakdowns where Shay would fake toward a screen and go the other way and Miles Turner would be like, where do you go? Where do you go? And there'd be a layup or J Dub, same thing. Got him a couple of times. Their defense was really good. And actually, one of the reasons I'm interested to go back and watch this game

• 11:27Speaker 01

  is an insanely low three-point volume game for both teams in 2025. 27 threes for the Pacers, only 22 threes for the Thunder. Like, you don't see games anymore where neither team gets 33. So they were able to. Take away, not take away, but limit SGA a little bit, make it tough for him without giving up like, like could you, Wallace may have had one in the corner that was an awful miss. Like a lot of their threes were contested, tough threes. Like it was a, for, for a team whose defense is it's like slight limitation. They, they've played a pretty good defensive series, like minus those breakdowns and just that, just that the bench is, the bench is ready for, even Ben Shepard, those 18 minutes from Ben Shepard are big,

• 12:12Speaker 01

  like competent minutes, like.

• 12:15Bill Simmons?

  Right. Yeah, he was, he was at least staying with SGA. It wasn't like he was shutting him down.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  We could, there's no, like, we could not possibly say enough about McConnell and Matherin. Like, they deserve like 10 minutes of this podcast. They were so good.

• 12:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, so when I said to you the, I think I said I could see him having 27 and 20 minutes. How many minutes did he play? Probably more than 20.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  And he had 27 points, exactly.

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  And the only one that I felt like he couldn't really do anything against, because nobody can, is Dort. And he was, he would try to get switches to get away from Dort so he could attack, but it felt like he was comfortable against everybody else. So I wrote down, it was OKC 90 to 84. Right after that, Jalen Williams hit that big three at the end of the third quarter.

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that was a killer. Yeah.

• 13:02Bill Simmons?

  And I wrote down, that was an uh oh for the rest of the decade moment, because that was one of those, I got it, guys. And, you know, so I wrote down a bunch of stats, because there was three minutes there. Indy had five turnovers in that quarter. They had seven in the first quarter, none in the second quarter when they played well. Indy was six for 22 from three after three quarters. And Turner was two for 10 and minus 15. And OKC was plus nine in rebounds. So every single stat was looking good for OKC. Indy wasn't playing well, except for, for Halliburton and the bench guys when they came in. And then they swung it. And I'm like you, I want to watch that tape again. It felt like the big things that swung were, um, Halliburton made a couple of big plays. SGA looked, what's the word he would use?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  I, I thought.

• 13:49Bill Simmons?

  Frazzled? A re- frazzled?

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I just thought their offense, and this is if the Thunder, there is no weakness, but if the Thunder have a weakness that we've seen or a limitation that we've seen in a few of these games is that their offense can just sort of default into like, okay, we're just not going to pass. Like, I'm just going to do everything by myself. And J-Dub and Shay both had a lot of those down the stretch, some successful, some not. I think they had 16 assists on what 37 baskets or something.

• 14:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Today. I mean, that's a somewhat alarming number and it's telling to me that after every timeout, if you go chart their out of timeout plays in this game, almost every one was some kind of like really heavily scripted set, like set piece where SGA would set a back screen for Holmgren or SGA would set it like almost like warrior-y off-ball stuff. And it's Dagnall trying to be like, let's get some stuff going here. But then when the going gets tough and the game gets into the muck and it's at the end and, and the Pacers contested those shots pretty well, even Nemhard, like they, SGA would shove them off a little bit and Nemhard would just be like, I got shoved. I'm not going to give up on the play. And they didn't panic and.

• 15:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Did you notice OKC was doing that? They're into Neesmith too. They were really physical drives where.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  I mean, J-Dub is a tank, man.

• 15:09Bill Simmons?

  I felt like the whole, the first quarter and the third quarter especially, OKC came out with, with a little bit of a physical swagger. Like, we're a stronger team than this team. Let's, let's punish these guys.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  I, I just wonder if they thought

• 15:25Speaker 01

  the whole series for Indiana rides on this game. If we can come in here and take this game and go up 2-1 and win, you know, win two straight in series, take back home court advantage, we're going to smell blood in the water. They're going to be worried. We're going to reassert our sort of primacy in the series. I wonder if they just came out and like, this is the series for Indiana, because this feels obviously way different if it's OKC 2, Indiana 1. And now it's like, now game four is just a perfect, awesome game for us to go to.

• 15:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, and game four is also the way they do this final schedule. It's the most interesting game because it's the one game where you only have the one day rest.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  And by the way, isn't that awesome? Because. The two days of rest between games one and two, and it's nice they spaced the finals out. You don't, you don't want to overstress the players, but it, it did feel like some of that, some of the momentum from that crazy first game was sort of dissipated over 48 hours. Now it's like one day off, practice is tomorrow, everyone's going to talk, we go right back at it.

• 16:21Bill Simmons?

  I was, uh, probably 10 rows behind the OKC bench and I was watching them before the game and I was watching them. They took a big lead the first four or five minutes. They were up like 13-6.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Was there a double digit lead in the game at any time? I don't think there was.

• 16:37Bill Simmons?

  I thought, yeah, they got to 15-6. I think that was the biggest lead. And, uh, and Chet had eight. Hal Burton hadn't gotten going in any way yet. And we, we were actually wondering how, if he was hurt, because that was a big topic the last day. Is he hiding some sort of injury? He wasn't. He was obviously fine. But in the timeout, they're laughing. They, all their chests are out. They're like doing, like you can kind of tell with benches sometimes how confident a team is. Now I sound like body language guy, but I, but in this case it's legit.

• 17:08Speaker 01

  He made the trip.

• 17:09Bill Simmons?

  And it was really funny to watch that kind of demeanor shift over the course of the game. And by the fourth quarter, there was none, obviously none of that because they're behind, but it was kind of like almost a little shell shock. Nobody was talking. There was like Caruso coming in and doing like the come on guys, but for the most part, that swagger like got just pulled out of them over the course of two hours.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And that, this was like one of those great finals games where it swung back and forth a bunch of times. It was like, oh, this team's up four momentum and like immediately the other team would answer. Like they just, every, both teams had answers and answers and answers until just the Pacers had a few more answers and then they ran out of, ran out of clock. OKC missed the free throws they needed to make to have any chance. Caruso didn't get the flagrant call. What, what did you think of that foul from like your perspective?

• 17:56Bill Simmons?

  I think you get that call in OKC.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  I think you get that call in the regular season.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you a hundred percent get it. If it's a Friday night ESPN game, you get that call.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  I didn't mind it not being called because.

• 18:06Bill Simmons?

  I thought he pulled his hand up right after the, right after he hit him. Like he didn't like follow through.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  Well, so that's why I like, I mean, I don't want to belabor because the game, it didn't end up mattering that much, but I, I do think. There's some skill in not being so out of control that you just decapitate someone. And Neesmith, like, he missed his head, he missed his neck, he hit his shoulders, his arms, and didn't, like, wind up crazily. Like, that, that, he took some precaution to not just kill Alex Caruso in midair.

• 18:33Bill Simmons?

  The problem is, he had no chance on that play. He was directly behind him. And usually, they give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who's ahead, because they don't want those guys to get hurt in those. But I was fine with it.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Can we talk about McConnell and Matherin more?

• 18:46Bill Simmons?

  So, yeah, we, we have a bunch of stuff.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  McConnell had three McConnells in one NBA Finals game.

• 18:52Bill Simmons?

  He caught an inbound pass.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  That's a McConnell. He says, a McConnell is an inbound steal. He got three of them in one game. I'm like-

• 18:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, so what's an official McConnell? Because he jumped up like a defensive end on the football line.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  A McConnell-

• 19:06Bill Simmons?

  And stole, and stole like a screen pass, basically.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  That's actually interesting. Is a McConnell-

• 19:10Bill Simmons?

  It's a full McConnell if he, if he steals, if he grabs the inbound pass out of the air.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  A full, that's right. A full McConnell is if he's the first person to touch an inbound pass from the other team and he steals the ball.

• 19:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  A semi McConnell is they inbound it to another player who catches it and then he just takes the ball away. That's all, that's a different, he had three full McConnells in one game, including 95-91 in the fourth quarter. Thunder have the ball and they're ahead by four. Jalen Williams brings the ball over half court, gets pressed a little bit, picks up his dribble inexplicably, and then like throws a pass to nobody. McConnell gets it-

• 19:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Goes down the court, misses, offensive rebound, Nemhard hits a short two, it's 95-93. Instantaneous McConnell putback layup, 95-95.

• 19:56Bill Simmons?

  Crowd goes, crowd goes-

• 19:57Speaker 01

  What just happened? Like, it could have been a six-point game and it's tied in five seconds and a McConnell?

• 20:02Bill Simmons?

  Crowd goes crazy, too. Yeah, there was a few times, like, they fucked up a few fast breaks. McConnell had one where he just was like tearing down. It was like a one on four and he just whipped it into the corner. They reviewed it. It was, it was just a bad play, but where it felt like Indiana was about to go up by eight and every time it felt that way, they would do something dumb. McConnell was, you know, I, we've seen him do this at home. Like if you actually watched the Pacers the last couple of years, this is a big part of who they are. It's him coming in these home games and swinging the game. Matherin, hit or miss, you knew he was going to have a game like this at some point. Toppin was the revelation for me because there's been times in the playoffs where he looks unplayable. And then there's other times in

• 20:43Bill Simmons?

  the playoffs where you go, wow, I can't believe the Knicks just gave him away. Because they did. They, I mean, they needed the cellar cap, but they literally gave him away. That follow-up dunk he had, which I was lucky because it was on my basket. And you could see there was a miss and you could see him timing it from the foul line and coming up and all of a sudden he was 12 feet. And by the way, that was one of the big Carlisle moves of the game. He sat Siakam until I think like three and a half minutes left.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  He rode the top and Turner combination. The big man rotation was-

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  But sitting Siakam was pretty bold. Like, I don't-

• 21:17Speaker 01

  Well, and it's fitting for the kind of player Pascal Siakam is, that the first time we mentioned him X minutes into this podcast is about how he wasn't in the game for a lot of the fourth quarter. And all he did was finish with 21, 6 and 4 on 8 of 14 shooting. And just like, he just, I've said this to you before, he's like the electric current pulsing through the game. You don't notice it all the time, but it's powering them constantly. And like, yes, he was on the bench for some of the fourth quarter. He still had a great game. Defensively, I thought he was awesome, made a lot of plays on defense.

• 21:45Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he should have been on the bench for that long. I thought it was really risky because I didn't think Turner was good. And ironically, Turner, in the last couple of minutes, had three straight awesome defensive plays. That kind of clinched the game. So that's why he was out there, but he was bad for most of the game.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Well, Toppin, you know, he has, it's 105, 100. I just, I'm not doing this from straight memory, but I just looked at the play by play. 105, 100. Dort misses a wide open corner three to bring it to within two.

• 22:13Bill Simmons?

  By the way, I thought that was going in.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  I didn't, I mean, anything blew Dort touched for the first three quarters of the game.

• 22:21Bill Simmons?

  I think every shot he's taking is going in.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Toppin got what will go as an unheralded, really good contested defensive rebound.

• 22:30Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  So defensive rebound by Toppin, immediate offensive put back dunk by Toppin on a Halliburton miss. And then Toppin switches onto JDub on the next possession and blocks him at the rim.

• 22:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:42Speaker 01

  Three incredible Toppin plays in 45 seconds to swing the game from like, really in the balance of that door three goes in or they get an offensive rebound or something to Indiana is now in full control of the game going down the stretch.

• 22:55Bill Simmons?

  He's a classic, nice guy to have in a playoff home game with an awesome crowd.

• 23:01Speaker 01

  I mean, that put back dunk was.

• 23:02Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's like that for the, for the Celts, Robert Williams was like that. There's certain guys who are just like great playoff home game guys.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  I actually thought about Robert Williams today for some reason during a meeting I had with somebody and we were, I was talking about a center that, I was thinking about centers that can rim run and pass and how rare that combination is and how it looked like.

• 23:24Bill Simmons?

  Robert Williams.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  One of those guys and now it's like, where is he? What's happening? Anyway.

• 23:30Bill Simmons?

  I allowed myself to think of the Celtics today as I was walking to the, whatever the Indiana arena is called, which by the way has been around since.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Cambridge Fieldhouse.

• 23:37Bill Simmons?

  1999?

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's what, it might be my favorite arena.

• 23:41Bill Simmons?

  Same year as Staples Center. The place is awesome and the Staples Center should, should, uh, should be fumigated. Um, but I was thinking as I was walking there a year ago, I went to the two Dallas Celtic games in Dallas, which were super fun and it was like, really felt like the Celtics were going to win the title and this was, hopefully this finals could be, and now the Celtics era is completely over. Everybody's being traded.

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Wasn't game three the seminal, um,

• 24:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:11Speaker 01

  Luca winds at the refs and fouls out.

• 24:13Bill Simmons?

  That was the Jalen Brown dunk in traffic game.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:16Bill Simmons?

  That was the Jalen Brown won the finals MVP that game.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  That was a crazy game to be a.

• 24:20Bill Simmons?

  And that was the, Luca just fouled out, oh my God, this is full circle Kyrie. Kyrie is gonna beat the Celtics in this game.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right.

• 24:28Bill Simmons?

  I can't believe this is lined up and then he actually missed some shots. We're gonna take a break and a lot more to discuss about this game. This episode is brought to you by Uber Eats. Summer is here and you can now get almost anything you need for your sunny days delivered with Uber Eats. What do I mean by almost? Well, you can't get a well groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmigiana delivered. I love chicken parm. A day in the sun, no. A bottle of rum, yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Let's talk about Indiana, the basketball city, because we're both here, which is a really special place.

• 25:13Bill Simmons?

  And I've talked about it a million times. It's the place of Hoosiers and Larry Bird and, you know, it's 49 states. And then there's Indiana, whatever that saying is. They show Oscar Robertson courtside, you know, legend in high school in 1950s. It's weird, Oscar doesn't really have a team in the NBA because he played for the Cincinnati Royals that don't exist anymore. And then he was in the Bucks for a few years, but Indiana is kind of weirdly his team. Then they go back, they show Reggie Miller. They show Edgeron James.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  That was a great one.

• 25:50Bill Simmons?

  McAfee's in the suite. I was like, this is great.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  I was so excited to see Edgeron James.

• 25:52Bill Simmons?

  Please show Larry Legend, where is he? But the crowd was just, you know, everyone's wearing jerseys. Everyone is like super optimistic and a bunch of people were talking to me or yelling, yelling at me like, but what do you think? What do you think? We got a chance like, just like the happiest basketball place. So much fun to come here and you made the key point, the arena is probably the best.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  It's a great arena.

• 26:14Bill Simmons?

  I think it's number one for me.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Every seat is good.

• 26:16Bill Simmons?

  Even the corners are good. If you've, the crowd feels like they're on top of the game. When you have a game like today, I do think it affects the game. Because I think if you're the visiting team, it's just, it feels like the fans are on top of you in a slightly different way and those fans are fantastic.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  And boy, game four. I mean, look, Oklahoma City's had gut check moments and the Denver series down 2-1. That was a big test. Minnesota, I mean, up 2-1 in Minnesota for game four, semi gut check, little bit of a gut check. This is the ultimate, if you want to become a championship team, this is about as big of a game and as big of a test as you're going to face. Down 2-1 in the finals on the road against a team that has proven itself championship caliber and that absolutely thinks we can do the whole thing. Like, there's no doubt, if there were any doubt, and I don't really think there was, there is no doubt anymore that, like, we could do the whole thing.

• 27:12Bill Simmons?

  So the 2015 Warriors, I think they went-

• 27:15Speaker 01

  Did the whole thing.

• 27:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think they fell behind 2-1 to Memphis-

• 27:18Speaker 01

  They did.

• 27:18Bill Simmons?

  And hit that similar point, and they had to win game four in Memphis.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  In the second round. It wasn't like-

• 27:23Bill Simmons?

  No, this is way bigger stakes, but it's the same kind of, with the younger teams, you have the chest hair game. I thought they already had the chest hair game when the Denver series. You know-

• 27:36Speaker 01

  They had three of them.

• 27:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, yeah, the-

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Four of them, if you include game six loss.

• 27:40Bill Simmons?

  Was it game four? All these games blend together. One of those, game four, game five?

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Game four and game five, they both won. Game four-

• 27:48Bill Simmons?

  Game four in Denver.

• 27:50Speaker 01

  Uh, game four in Denver in a game where-

• 27:52Bill Simmons?

  In game five.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  They were behind and teetering. And then Wiggins, that was Wiggins-

• 27:57Bill Simmons?

  Right, right, right.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Wallace making shots against the zone.

• 27:59Bill Simmons?

  And Jalen Williams hit the three and gave, yeah, it was, that stretch, I thought that's when they got through it, but now you're right. This is, uh, because I watched this happen. The reason I mentioned that Dallas Miami series at the top, you can think you're the better team, and OKC has a better team. They have a better team. But you still have to beat the other team four times. Indiana doesn't think OKC is better than them. They showed it today. And at some point, they're going to have to go and take it. And when you're at these games, when you're in the room- And you feel it slipping away. There's nothing, there's no other sport like it. Like football, baseball, none of these, hockey, none of these other sports have, where you're watching it going, I can't believe this is how it's playing out.

• 28:42Bill Simmons?

  I remember in the Dallas Miami series, Jason Terry hit that crazy 30 foot three against Miami to clinch, I think it was game five, hit the hand in, with LeBron's hand in his face.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:54Bill Simmons?

  Even when he was taking it, I was like, I can't believe Dallas is gonna win game five. This is the most basic thing I've ever seen. And then they won it, they win in six. So there's gonna be a moment in game four when OKC is, is gonna have to decide, is this really how our season's gonna end? This is what's gonna happen?

• 29:13Speaker 01

  Um, first of all, just for the record, the Cavs were up 2-1 over the Warriors in the 2015 finals. So the Warriors did have a game four on the road and that's when they went small and started to go small.

• 29:25Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever think that Cavs without Kyrie and?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Starting Mozgov and a Man Shonberg.

• 29:29Bill Simmons?

  I never, I never felt the Warriors.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Current did podcasting with Brian Windhorst.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I never felt like the Warriors were in like major danger. It was weird. Memphis, I felt like they were, was more dangerous for them because Memphis was so weird.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  So here's the thing about like, you, you just said Oklahoma City is a better team. I think we all think Oklahoma City is a better team.

• 29:47Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't mean they're gonna win the series.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  No, but, and I can hear Indiana fans saying, oh, hold on now. Like you erase our first 30 games when Halliburton is just finding his rhythm after a tough start and we get our defense together, Nem Hard and Neesmith get healthy and back in the lineup. We can go toe to toe with anybody and they were much better. I'm just looking up the numbers now. From February 1st till end of season, so half the season of basically. Oklahoma City 31 and 5, net rating 13.7. Indiana 24 and 12, net rating 3.7. So getting, getting there, but like still kind of a big gap. From March 1st on, it gets, it gets narrower. Oklahoma City 20 and 3, plus 12.9.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Indiana 17 and 7, plus 5.3. So yeah, the gap narrowed, but like, this is still surprising that Indiana has gotten this good, this fast and kept trending up and kept narrowing that gap. And now they're just, they're just as good. I mean, we gotta, we didn't talk enough about Matherin, your guy.

• 30:52Bill Simmons?

  So he's the one guy in the team who feels like he can create his own shot against really good defense, no matter who's guarding him, except for the Dort, who's the good reaper.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  What was impressive to me was how calm he looked, just how easy those mid-range jumpers looked for him. Like, I'm just, I'm just walking right into it, just strolling into it. And maybe you gotta pressure him more or whatever. There was a lot of commentary on Twitter about, you know, Oklahoma City's bigs are too far back on some of these. I thought it was mostly good defense. Like, you just gotta make guys make shots. But he scored on jumpers, he scored on pull-up threes, he scored on catch-and-shoot threes. He had a bunch of cuts in the first half, often off of McConnell actions and stuff, where it's like, he just had a very mature, all-around floor game that you don't necessarily associate with a guy that was kind of known as a chucker. And he did a little bit of everything. He got transition points, like a little bit of every part of his offensive

• 31:46Speaker 01

  game came out and they, and it was just, and, you know.

• 31:50Bill Simmons?

  He had 14 in the second quarter.

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's like, you know, there's this whole thing of Indiana never tanks and they build from the middle. And that's largely true. He is the, he is the product of like, they're really only close to bottoming out season when they got the sixth pick and Jairus Walker is the other one and he's not playing, he's been injured and whatever. But like, they're now getting something from him, they're getting a lot from him. They're just like, they just have a lot of good players, man.

• 32:16Bill Simmons?

  I actually think Walker would have played in this series.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  I do too.

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like Walker. 14 in the second quarter for him. It's a weird one because it feels like he's been on the trade block for about a year in some ways. Like, he does feel, he has felt available. And he's always the person that gets brought up first. You said that earlier, when they talk about if they change the team, is he in it? If they try to upgrade, like if they try to get like Cam Johnson or whoever. But I don't know, I like the vibe that he brings to them, this hit or miss, he can carry you for a quarter. Like, I really value guys like that.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  So there's this whole debate.

• 32:55Bill Simmons?

  Pete Prichard was like that for the Celtics, where he could just carry them for eight minutes out of nowhere. And you never knew what was gonna happen. And when it happened, it was like, fuck it, you felt like you found money in your pocket.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  There's this whole debate with Matherin about, you know, he doesn't really play the Pacer style. Like, the ball sticks with him a little bit more. He's not as intuitive, a quick twitch, quick pass, quick cut decision makers, everybody else on the team. And I think I said this to you last time we podcasted like initially, I think that was thought of as like, eh, he's not that great of a fit. He doesn't play the way we feel. And the more I watch him, the more I'm like, every team kind of needs a curve ball.

• 33:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Like even the Warriors, like Steve Kerr, it's like it's a, it's a little bit of a weird example to bring up now, but he would always be like, the reason I like Wiggins on our team is he can break away from our beautiful game cuts and just like get us a few buckets, one on one, when nothing else is working. We need that kind of guy on our team. I, I think he's like the curve ball that to be a championship team, you kind of need. If you play, if Indiana, if, if you play a style that's like Indiana, I think you need a guy who can be like, eh, that style's cool, but I'm just going to do some like traditional guy stuff.

• 34:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Be the guy.

• 34:07Bill Simmons?

  I don't feel like he's as ball stoppy as he used to be.

• 34:09Speaker 01

  No, he's got, he's got much better. And defensively, he's gotten better too.

• 34:12Bill Simmons?

  One thing I noticed, I wanted to talk to you because it's about as basketball nerdy as I'm going to get with you. You can go seven levels higher than me with some of the super nerd stuff and talk pin downs and double pin downs and reverse pin downs.

• 34:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 34:24Bill Simmons?

  Upside down pin downs. How many pin downs are there?

• 34:27Speaker 01

  I had a lot of pin downs. Pacers are breaking out some creative stuff.

• 34:31Bill Simmons?

  You can do a full pin down podcast. Um, one thing I've noticed that these two teams specifically do, and I don't know if it's a trend, and I don't know if it's something teams will copy when they watch this and see what's successful. They do it with Shay, with the, uh, with OKC and they do with Halber, but then weirdly also with Matherin, where it's like the guy has the ball, set him pick up top. He's moving around, he's moving back, he dumps it off, the ball immediately comes back to him and it's like this constant. He had, it's almost like watching a hockey power play where they keep giving it back to the defenseman so he can reset whatever the attack on the net. And the ball just kind

• 35:12Bill Simmons?

  of keeps moving around and it's these little hockey passes versus like how the Celtics play where it's like, we dribble up, I'm going to hunt this matchup. Come set me a pick. You three guys stand there. I'm just going to keep dribbling until I get the look I want, then I'm going to shoot. Indy's doing a version of that and OKC is too, where the ball is still moving around all the time, but they're doing the same thing. And I think it's way harder to stop. And I wonder if it's going to be. Something that's replicated next season. Is that, was that coherent? Do you know what I mean?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Somewhat coherent. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's 12, 12:20 a.m.

• 35:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm a little groggy.

• 35:46Speaker 01

  You flew cross-country.

• 35:48Bill Simmons?

  I did.

• 35:48Speaker 01

  You're doing great. I mean, Indiana definitely plays a more random, unpredictable style than Oklahoma City. And I just think.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  But do you think that they, they deliberately don't want anybody to have the ball for more than like three, three and a half seconds?

• 36:03Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 36:04Bill Simmons?

  It seems like that's a real thing for them.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  It's, it's can't be a hard and fast rule because sometimes Siakam has a mismatch. You just gotta give him the ball and let him manufacture some points.

• 36:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:13Bill Simmons?

  So he'll back down. That's like the one time they'll mess around with it.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  And Matherin, you know, will do his stuff, but I mean, it's, you could only play that way if your best player, your offensive number one option is a guy who wants to get off the ball fast, who, who lives to get other people involved. And often, you know, Anthony Edwards is learning this in Minnesota. Like if you get off the ball, you will often get it back. It will go all the way around to you because you will have compromised the defense with that first pass. And it will, they'll be in rotation and you'll be the guy who the ball should get back to in rotation. And Halliburton just plays that way. You can't play that way if your best player doesn't, doesn't have that kind of basketball ethos to him. And he does.

• 36:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because in person you can watch, it's much easier to watch the people who don't have the ball. So I was watching some of the stuff Neesmith was doing in the second half as they're doing all the stuff on the top. And Halliburton, he's dipping off, he's getting back and they're moving around. They're trying to create mismatches and he's in the corner. But then sometimes he would kind of creep in if the, if the defender was falling asleep on him and see if he could get a little back cut or he would, he would dart in or he would try to get an offensive rebound. Everybody in that team is up to something. It's not a team where the guys are just like, I'll just be here in the corner. I hope it works out for you. You know what I mean?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  So they are very, I, I've talked about this on my much, my nerdier podcasts before.

• 37:34Bill Simmons?

  On the pin down?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  But on the pin down with Zach Lowe.

• 37:38Bill Simmons?

  That'd be a good title.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  But, but we're going to get deep now, deep in Indiana Pacers lore right now. They are extremely proud of Neesmith for exactly what you just described. For learning how to move without the ball, to screen and to be random, to cut, to always be on his toes.

• 37:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, remember on the Celtics, he just stood there.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Well.

• 37:59Bill Simmons?

  That was one of the reasons, I mean, he was, wasn't his fault. They just told him, go in the corner. You're not going to have the ball.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  And you know what the deep cut is? The guy they give a lot of credit, not only for that, but for his partnership with Halliburton and Halliburton really leaning into a crazy motion, get off the ball offense is a guy who's no longer on the Pacers. It's Buddy Heald. The coaches of the Pacers talk about Buddy Heald's lasting impact on Neesmith, on Halliburton and just how they play. Like it, it comes up and they, and first of all, everybody loves Buddy Heald. He's the most garrulous personality. He's an extremely hard worker. He's a beloved teammate. Everybody loves Buddy Heald, but they talk about his impact in particular on exactly what you just described with Neesmith more than anyone else on the team.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  I wonder if it's replicable or I wonder if they just have been doing it for so long. Cause OKC will have, they have their version of it, but then they also do what you talked about earlier where it's just a lot of dribbling and they, the ball stops moving around in the same way.

• 39:04Speaker 01

  And look, they made tough shots. Like if you tell, if you said before the game, Chet, J Dub and Shay are going to combine for 70 points on like not great shooting, but let me see again, do the math. 24 of 53 with a lot of free throws between them too. Like it's not like they, they, their offensive rating for the game is, is bad, but it, it didn't feel like, I mean, they got nothing from the bench. Hartenstein's first bad game of the series. Wiggins disappeared, got zero.

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  The Hartenstein thing is an issue. That's, that'll be one of the topics tomorrow about maybe this is why they were so afraid to play the double bigs. Maybe this is, maybe they anticipated this. Maybe there was stuff during the season that they saw with this matchup with him. Cause I thought, thought he looked a little gamey. I'm also like, if I'm Indiana, I'm delighted when, and I, I think Isaiah Joe's a good player, but every time somebody like Isaiah Joe or even Wiggins is in the game, I'm so happy that the fucking gauntlet of all those defenders are not there at the same time.

• 40:06Bill Simmons?

  And conversely, I, I mean, watching what Nemhard was trying to do to SGA and I thought that he got called for a couple chintzy fouls. Watching how different SGA was the moment Nemhard would come out of the game versus when Nemhard in, I thought was pretty interesting. It was like the straitjacket came off basically.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Nemhard is just awesome.

• 40:27Bill Simmons?

  Pick 31.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Pick 31.

• 40:30Bill Simmons?

  We're just never going to be good at the draft. That's, that's what we learn over and over again. Pick 31, 30 guys over him.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Pick 31 and they got him and the pick that became Ben Shepard in the same little just random trade. I think it was one of the Karis Levert trades. And Nemhard, eight points, nothing jumps off the stat sheet. He's just an awesome basketball player. Like, I remember when he signed that contract, which was like 18, 19 million dollars a year. Do you go back and read some of the reviews that, I don't know, that's like too little too much for a team that's going to be up against the tax. I remember just thinking like, the guy's good.

• 41:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  Like a good player making 20 million dollars. That's just what, that's just fine. Like, he's just a really good player. Are you ever unhappy when Andrew Nemhard is on the floor? No matter what he's doing, it's like, I'm always happy to have that guy around. Even if he's floating around on offense or not guarding the best guy, or he's switched onto that guy's like, he's going to do the right thing every single time, even if the right thing is not something that you really notice.

• 41:23Bill Simmons?

  He's also a dick, and I mean this as a compliment. He's, he's got a dick side that's like very, very underground, but it'll come out once or twice a game. There's a moment in the game where SGA got fouled and then he tried, was going for a continuation. Nemhard came in and basically did the second foul on him. And SGA didn't like it. He went to the ref to complain about the foul and Nemhard just walked over right next to him and was just like being a dick and was like, really? You're going to bitch about that? And was just kind of, just trying to get under his skin a little bit, which he's been doing in every series and he loves it. And it's like a Canadian thing. He, he's doing like the Canadian playoff hockey thing. He's like the guys that basically he would be on, on Florida, just like hit somebody with his stick right after the whistle.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I did, I did listen to you and Ryan talk about the Stanley Cup Finals a little bit. It made me want to get into the Stanley Cup Finals.

• 42:12Bill Simmons?

  You would love it.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  Florida's apparently has got a lot of, a lot of hateable guys.

• 42:16Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Nemhard wouldn't even crack the top five for.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  What's the score? Who's winning that, sir? Do they play?

• 42:21Bill Simmons?

  Florida's up.

• 42:22Speaker 01

  Do they all, do, do they alternate? So at least we can go NBA Finals and NHL Finals.

• 42:26Bill Simmons?

  They do, they try to steer clear from NBA. Yeah, no, that game three was the classic where Florida took a big lead and then we just had to have fights. They, each team has to lay down their. Their masculinity on the other team.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  I will never get over that fighting is just allowed in hockey. I just, I.

• 42:42Bill Simmons?

  It's crazy. The one that's really crazy is professional, there's professional lacrosse stuff where they can fight. They, in hockey, you have skates. Like you only can get so much leverage. If you're in lacrosse, you can really like, you know, plant, sock somebody. I'm kind of surprised that lacrosse fights.

• 43:00Bill Simmons?

  All right, more stuff from this game.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, go.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  OKC's starting five.

• 43:10Bill Simmons?

  With Wallace. Do we see anything different in game four? Which I think we both agree is a backs to the wall game for OKC. Because if you go down 3-1 with game six looming, I don't care how good you are, that's, that's a place that only a few teams in the history of the league has come back from.

• 43:29Speaker 01

  I think the only move. I'm gonna guess no.

• 43:35Speaker 01

  I think the only reasonable move unless it's something out of left field, like we're gonna just start Kendrick Williams and see what happens in the case of Wallace spot. I think the only move is to start Caruso over Wallace.

• 43:46Bill Simmons?

  That's what I had as well.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  And I don't really know that anything that happened today screams for that being necessary, but.

• 43:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, I don't love the plus minus stat, but did you see the plus minus stat?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Caruso, well, Caruso's minus 15.

• 43:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Today. And Wallace was minus 10. So take, take whichever you like. But I mean, Caruso's, and Caruso played 32 minutes and I don't know how much more than that he's gonna play, even if you start him or not. But he is better than Kason Wallace and.

• 44:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, I do wonder, like, we see these coaches. Further you get in the playoffs, that rotation starts to tighten, right? And OKC is an unusual team because like even today, they played 11 minutes, like legitimately. I mean, 11 guys played. Kendrick Williams only played two minutes, but they still, they played.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  And I hated the one shot Kendrick Williams took. Do you remember the shot he took?

• 44:35Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't great.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Just got the ball, three point arc, jab step, like 28 feet from the rim. Like, I guess I'm just gonna shoot now. It was like one of those possessions where it's like, hey.

• 44:43Bill Simmons?

  I'm in the finals. I get, I'm gonna take a three. I just feel like you're probably good with nine guys, maybe 10 max, but if you're down. Usually what we see teams shorten the rotation, go to eight, maybe seven, playing big minutes. I had the same thought. I wonder if Caruso just starts and maybe they do it that way. The only other one I was thinking was, would they start Isaiah Joe? For some, just a weird three point look out of nowhere for, for seven minutes.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  That's another out of left field one. I, I don't see it. The other thing that's interesting is in the last two games, we've seen zero of the no big man lineup. And I thought that lineup did not, I, I think the plus minus was not good in game one, but I still thought it was something I would try if I were the Thunder. And I'm, I'm a little surprised that they've gone like completely away from it. I would like to see that as like a four minute, just blitz them with switching and swiping and steals. And see, see if that can just like muck up the game a little bit with even more speed than we normally have.

• 45:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, neither of us work for ESPN anymore, but I think we have.

• 45:50Speaker 01

  I don't?

• 45:51Bill Simmons?

  We have to do.

• 45:53Bill Simmons?

  We're both gone. We have to do a segment called Step Up.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:58Bill Simmons?

  Who's got to step up? Uh, I'm looking at the box score right now and, in case I'm Wallace, I don't know if you need to step up. Uh, Isaiah Hartenstein, you need to step up. Myles Turner maybe needs to step up.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Isaiah Hartenstein, the $30 million man.

• 46:17Bill Simmons?

  You were the big fridge edition?

• 46:19Speaker 01

  You're four and three.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  No, that's the thing is like, I, I think that was just a really nice competitive fucking basketball game.

• 46:28Bill Simmons?

  SGA, slight step up?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  Well, that's, let's talk about that.

• 46:32Bill Simmons?

  10% step up?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  24 points, six turnovers, four assists.

• 46:36Bill Simmons?

  20 shots, 24 points, 42 minutes.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  It took us too long to get here.

• 46:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 01

  He did not play a good enough game.

• 46:43Bill Simmons?

  He didn't.

• 46:45Bill Simmons?

  He didn't. I, he, uh.

• 46:49Speaker 01

  Took us too long to get to SGA. We're so in love with the McConnells and the Matherins and the Toppins. Took us too long to get to SGA because he didn't play. He was like good or like a like the B minus SGA game probably.

• 47:00Bill Simmons?

  I would go C plus.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  C plus.

• 47:02Bill Simmons?

  So here's what here's here was the vibe I got from him in this game. It reminded me of FIBA. As you know, I'm one of the only people that loves all the FIBA games in the Olympics. When the rules are different and we send the guys over there and they think they're going to get a call and they don't get it. And then they do another and they don't get the call and they're just kind of.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Are you going free throw merchant?

• 47:20Bill Simmons?

  This combined, I'm not going merchant. It just felt like he was getting defended in a way that uh he didn't really adjust to as well that well. He was trying to bounce off guys. There was one time where, you know, he did get the hook arm. He did that a couple of times. But for the most part, I thought the refs called him really fairly. I thought they called both sides like the Indiana crowd was probably madder. Then maybe they should have been, but you know, they're a home crowd. They're doing. But I thought for the most part, they allowed a lot of physicality on both sides and I don't know if that's great for him.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  I and I also thought again, like with the exception of their their big man point of attack defense on some pick and rolls. Like Miles Turner, Thomas Bryant. Thought their defense was pretty good and I thought their off ball defense, again, I'll go back and watch it tomorrow. But just like they're stunting back and forth on his pick and rolls, they're trying to. Make him a decision maker and cloud his decision making. And I thought they did a good job of that tonight. Like a lot of the a few of his turnovers were bad pass turnovers on the pick and roll where he was kind of caught in between reads.

• 48:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  A little bit and didn't quite know what to do with it. I thought their defense and they started doubling him. He loves to do the thing where. He drives to like the deadest dead spot on the floor, the spot that nobody ever wants the ball in, which is like. 18 feet from the rim on the baseline because he's he just thinks no one is going to come help here. It's just going to be me because who's going to double here? And the Pacers, as the Wolves did a little bit in the last series, started springing doubles on him there.

• 48:55Bill Simmons?

  Toppin kept coming over. I thought that was smart.

• 48:58Speaker 01

  We're just not going to give you this shot. We're going to force you to pass it. And one and once they gave up a bad, they their rotations are bad. Isaiah Joe hit a wide open three, like the one guy you absolutely cannot leave open on Oklahoma City. But other than that, their rotations were pretty good. And, you know, I just think, you know, again, Rick Carlisle is very good at not overdoing anything. Like, just because they did that a few times today and it worked, they may not do it the first couple of times. Shay goes to that spot in game four.

• 49:22Bill Simmons?

  They did a nice job. It didn't feel like he was going downhill as much as he normally does in playoff games when he's just scoring 36 to 38 points. My guess would be he's going to be awesome in game four.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  I mean, game two was just a spectacular.

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that was an A plus. Today was a C plus.

• 49:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:41Bill Simmons?

  And when the MVP has a C plus.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  I was an easy teacher, so I'd give him a B minus. But when the MVP has a B minus, C plus, like, you're vulnerable.

• 49:49Bill Simmons?

  My grades for today, the Indiana crowd was an A plus, A plus. Superb job by them. I have no notes. Just keep doing what you're doing, Indiana. And I loved having Oscar Robertson and Reggie Miller there and Larry Legend should be here for game four if they really want to bring the roof down. Fucking private chat.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  Mark Jackson was here.

• 50:08Bill Simmons?

  Mark Jackson was there?

• 50:09Speaker 01

  Mark Jackson was up in a suite.

• 50:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Bill Simmons?

  I thought Halliburton was probably an A.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:18Bill Simmons?

  I think he was the A plus would have been the game four Knicks series. I really liked some of the stuff he was doing on defense. I thought he was active and problematic for OKC. But I thought he was fantastic. Toppin gets an A minus for me. Matherin gets an A. TJ McConnell, probably, probably a B plus. I didn't like a couple of the turnovers.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:41Bill Simmons?

  And then for OKC, I really liked what Jalen Williams did in that game.

• 50:46Bill Simmons?

  I thought, I thought they relied on him in kind of a shocking way offensively where they, it almost felt like they were one A, one B. Little Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum-ish.

• 50:55Speaker 01

  It does feel.

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Like the more stress they get put under and the fewer easy transition baskets they get, when that's when they get rolling, right? Like, and that's when their passing gets unleashed and they get alley oops and all that. It does feel like for, not all the time, not even for the majority of the time, but for segments of each of these games, high pressure games, that there's not as much synergy between Shay and J-Dub as you would like there to be.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  Dueling banjos?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  A little bit of like, like, there's been a lot of Jalen Williams going on right now and Shay's kind of standing in the corner like, okay, now there's a lot of Shay going on. And you would just like a little bit more possessions when there's like a lot of both going on. That's all.

• 51:35Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna take a break and then I have a really important subject to bring up about this series. That's, that's, I could see getting cut out in a social media video.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 51:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone. Building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and Diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 53:15Speaker 02

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 53:40Speaker 03

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 53:52Speaker 04

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 54:39Speaker 04

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 54:45Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or, if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. All right, coming back. Social media segment time. Okay, you want to say it? I'll let you do it.

• 55:19Speaker 02

  Kyle, turn the TikTok camera on.

• 55:26Bill Simmons?

  If OKC loses this series.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Oh, boy. Here we go. You can't resist going to the end. We're in the middle. Let's enjoy the middle.

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  I wasn't allowing myself or even considering it was a possibility until I was in that arena tonight, when realizing that OKC has to figure out how to win in that arena either Friday night or next week.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  Or they're not going to win the title.

• 55:48Speaker 01

  It's good math. Your math is right.

• 55:52Bill Simmons?

  If they don't win the title, this would be an absolute historic basketball calamity because they had one of the greatest seasons of all time.

• 56:03Bill Simmons?

  And start to finish, I'm not saying they're one of the greatest teams of all time, but they had one of the seven, eight, nine, 10, whatever list you want to do, from net ratings to actual record to dominance to 15, 20 point wins. It was one of the best seasons anyone's ever had. And to then go to the finals and lose, you're in rare ground. You're in 2016 Warriors, Draymond punching LeBron in the balls and Steph playing on an injured ankle and Festus Ezeli being trapped on an island against LeBron for two straight threes. And all of a sudden, we've lost. What the hell happened? This does not happen a lot in basketball. Usually the right team, usually the better team, usually the team that has the best season,

• 56:49Bill Simmons?

  wins the title. But then occasionally, that's not what happens. And this is one of those times.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  It would be interesting to look back at most dominant teams that didn't win.

• 57:01Bill Simmons?

  It's the shortest list possible.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  Very short list. I remember doing this last year when Boston was on the verge of winning the title because of their, what did they win, 66 games last year or something like?

• 57:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. When you get, when you get into the 80 win territory as a team, when you're 80, 18, 82 and 20, like.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  But I remember, I remember going through basketball reference and doing the. Wins, regular season wins, regular season net rating, playoff net rating, and how many teams checked every box at a certain level of eliteness or whatever.

• 57:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  Like, just narrowing it down or finagling the numbers in different ways. And let's just say when the Thunder were up 2-0 against Minnesota, I reread that, the piece that I ended up writing about Boston and where that Boston team's place in history should be and would be compared to those other teams.

• 57:51Bill Simmons?

  Which was a pure math case.

• 57:53Speaker 01

  It just, well, no, it just like, but it wasn't a pure math case.

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  Just like record stats.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  My, the ultimate conclusion, which I think was right, then a lot of people made it, was the math says that Celtics team is like way up here. I think they're probably a little bit like, really great team, but with some of the other just like really great teams, not as up here as the masses. But anyway, I just cut and pasted that and put it in an email to myself to have it fresh in preparation for what looked like, I mean, when they were up 2-0 against Minnesota, it was like, are they just gonna win? Are they not losing for the rest of the season?

• 58:26Bill Simmons?

  I think I led my podcast that night that way. Like, did they just, did they arrive?

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, are they just gonna go 6-0 and the playoffs are gonna be over before we know it? And now, and again, like, the net rating can be what it is, like, and again, the Pacers became a very good team. The signs were all there, but there was still a difference between what Oklahoma City was resume-wise and what the Pacers were last 40 games even, resume-wise. Calamity? I mean, I just think you have to give the credit to the Pacers. Something magical has happened here and they're still a long way from finishing it off. Like, this is gonna be very hard to do against a great team that's still probably favored. I would like to look up the odds.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  That's a good, that's a good segment. Magical or calamity?

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Maga- mag- mag-

• 59:12Bill Simmons?

  Magical? Calamity?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Calamical?

• 59:15Bill Simmons?

  I think you're right in that the story leans more toward, this is one of the most incredible stories in the history of the NBA that this Pacers team won the title.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Something happened here.

• 59:27Bill Simmons?

  But I also think another piece would be, holy shit. OKC checked every box we ever thought we'd have to check for a team that was gonna win the title and they didn't win the title.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  Except for one box that you've already brought up.

• 59:39Bill Simmons?

  Age.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Veteran, whatever.

• 59:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the scary, that's the scariest thing with them is that they, you know, if they end up winning the title, I don't feel like they're close to being the team they're probably gonna be two years from now if everyone's healthy. They're just gonna be better.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  They're gonna be better and like the poster guy for that to me is Chet.

• 1:00:02Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  I was talking to Drew Hanlon before the game. He works with Chet among many other people and I was just saying to him, like, I watched Chet in these games and he's missed so much time in his brief NBA career and he'll do three or four things every game where I'm like, is he just kinda scratching the surface of what he's gonna do offensively? Like, is he even doing 50% of what he's gonna be able to do offensively? Drew's response was enthusiastic, yes, like, there's a lot more there and I won't go into the conversation anymore, but he's the guy.

• 1:00:33Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying Drew Hanlon talked about one of the players he was training?

• 1:00:36Speaker 01

  Well, we just, I talked about it and he like nodded.

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm kidding.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  But, but like, I, yeah, I mean.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think he's right because it's funny, Van, Van texted me a couple of days ago and was like, how good is Chet? I'm like, what do you mean? It's like, is it like, is there more here or is this it? And I was like, I actually think there's way, way, way more here. Because even in college, the way they used him at Gonzaga, he'd be at the top of the key and he, he would, almost like a little like how Duke used Cooper Flag last year where he was like, he was a little point forwardy sometimes, but I think there's this whole other level where you could run offense through him at the top of the key and he could either fake threes or go, you know, kick out. There's a post-up game that'll probably have, what, four years from now?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  I mean, in the first quarter of that game, he had a coast-to-coast take around Myles Turner and then he had a little short roll where Myles Turner was there, like on the catch and he just took like one dribble, pivot, step back, like 12 footer or 15 footer. It's like, god damn, that's a tough shot.

• 1:01:42Bill Simmons?

  This seems pretty amazing.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I, uh, they're down 2-1 in the finals to the Indiana Pacers.

• 1:01:48Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna go on FanDuel right now. What do you think the line is?

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Oklahoma City minus 110.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  But I have no, to be clear to the listeners, I have no idea how any of this works.

• 1:02:00Bill Simmons?

  OKC minus 235.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  That's wow.

• 1:02:04Bill Simmons?

  That's a thing.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Wasn't it minus 350 or something coming into this game? So this win, I guess it's a home win.

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  No, it jumped up to the 500s again after they won game two. Everyone and their brother had OKC in five as their finals pick. Did you have it? I had it.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  We're wrong. We're officially wrong. Three games into the series.

• 1:02:24Bill Simmons?

  Everyone was wrong and I didn't want to do it because everyone had it. I wanted to zag and I just couldn't figure out how Indiana was going to win two games. And now we know that game one game, that comeback in Halliburton, the shot he hits and that's how you, could that be how the entire series swings? I don't know. Um, all right. Predictions for game four and then I have some trade stuff to ask you about.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Oh, good. I like a 1245.

• 1:02:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Just let's go.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  Well, you had one thing on your pod I really want to dive into.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Uh, okay. Uh, predictions for game four. I'm just going to say Oklahoma City wins a very close game. But Oklahoma City 118, Indiana 114.

• 1:03:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, can we talk with maybe neither team because they're both pretty young. Who has an advantage from that game today that we just went to? Was like a playoff game and a half.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Bill Simmons?

  Incredibly physical. Up and down, uh, intense, emotional, and now they got to play on Friday. And I can't decide who that's more of a detriment to. My guess is the home crowd probably helps Indiana more. OKC, I have my eye on Chet because I really thought he looked wiped out in the fourth quarter. He was the one out of all the OKC guys that I thought looked like he, he, he was spent. SGA maybe, I don't know, but maybe that's, but on the other side, Halliburton. I don't know. My guess is it's going to be kind of an ugly, dramatic game. And it would be decided by somebody weird.

• 1:03:55Bill Simmons?

  I like it. I would.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  I'm going Oklahoma City by four.

• 1:03:59Bill Simmons?

  I would pick OKC as well. OKC is favored by six. I would not do that.

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  It's a lot. It's a lot of points. That's like, but I bet for, for thunder, even thunder playoff games. That's not very many points.

• 1:04:09Bill Simmons?

  I love this series and I don't care what the ratings are and if casual fans don't care because famous people that they knew or famous franchises aren't in it. You know what? Why do we need them? The NBA just signed an 11 year media deal. I'm fine. I love basketball. That game was awesome. I like that. We have two new teams that are now in the fray. And I think this finals is a win. And guess what? Indiana is a really small city and so is Oklahoma City. Shit happens.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Well, the MVP is in this, in the series, right? That should be a very famous player. You've taught, you and Ryan talked about how he's maybe not one of the 10 most famous players.

• 1:04:47Bill Simmons?

  It's a little Mike Trout-ish.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Okay, but he is, he is the MVP and no matter who the teams are. If it's a long series, the ratings will go up as the series goes on. So I, yeah, but I, I'll, I'll speak a.

• 1:05:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, what was the last great finals?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:05:11Bill Simmons?

  The last great finals.

• 1:05:14Bill Simmons?

  2013.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  No, 2016 has to be the baseline. Everything, everything after that is Warriors, Warriors, Raptors, bubble. Uh, Bucks, Bucks Suns was a great finals. It was just weird because the crowd, weren't we still in like half filled?

• 1:05:29Bill Simmons?

  It was a little like half COVID.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  That was a, that's an underrated finals. That was a really good finals.

• 1:05:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's a good call. All right. So Bucks Suns, 16 Warriors Cavs. 13 Spurs Heat, I think is the best finals of the last 15 years.

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Oh, those two, those two back to back. They're almost like Rocky one and Rocky two. Like they should all be one movie.

• 1:05:48Bill Simmons?

  But they, Miami broke in the second finals though.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's, but that's part of why it's like all one movie.

• 1:05:53Bill Simmons?

  And then 11, 11 finals, Mavs versus Heat. Great one. Tremendous. 2010 Lakers Celtics. Dramatic, but the basketball, I don't think was that great.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Ugly.

• 1:06:04Bill Simmons?

  Um.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  Trying to think what else.

• 1:06:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think those are probably the best ones of the century. 05 Pistons Spurs, the game seven was kind of a dud for a game seven.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Ugly and ratings were, nobody wanted, nobody wanted.

• 1:06:19Bill Simmons?

  You know what was a good one was the 2000 Pacers Lakers series. It's a really fun series. If you go back and look through those games, all of them are competitive.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  That's a great Kobe game, game four when Shaq fouls out.

• 1:06:30Bill Simmons?

  All right, quickly. So you had, you were talking about Durant and you said, watch out for the Clippers, which I had kind of heard rumblings of myself. And I think Durant's going to the Spurs. I'm just gonna slap it down a second time. I think that's how it plays out.

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  For sure, the two teams that there's the most buzz about are the Spurs and the Wolves.

• 1:06:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. So the Wolves gets more complicated because.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  The Wolves one just breaks my brain. I don't know how it's gonna work.

• 1:06:55Bill Simmons?

  Julius Randall and Nas Reed have to be involved somehow.

• 1:06:58Speaker 01

  You could do a Gobert one. You can do Gobert plus DiVincenzo one.

• 1:07:02Bill Simmons?

  Why did the Suns want Gobert?

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  I mean, Booker Gobert is something.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  Something. If you want to stay competitive because you don't have any control of your draft picks because you've ish beaded all of them away.

• 1:07:16Bill Simmons?

  Would you take Vassell, 14, Harrison Barnes expiring and a good first?

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yes, I would. I, I, I don't even think this, I, I, I don't know how, the biggest mystery in the league right now is how aggressive the Spurs are actually gonna get. And I think that's code for, they're gonna start with no number two, no Castle, no Vassell, and negotiate from there, I think. That's what I would guess that they're gonna do. Like two and Castle are just out.

• 1:07:45Bill Simmons?

  They should be. KD's 37 and he makes 50 a year and he's got one year left on his deal and he's been in the league for 18 years.

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  There's the subplot I forgot to get into on my podcast. The two-year, 112 million dollar extension he could sign with.

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  AKA Jimmy Butler? Do you do the one extra or the two extra?

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Do the Suns, A, is there a team that will trade for him not caring whether he signs it or not? Not even wanting him to sign it, maybe. B.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  Well, the Suns, the Suns, I assume, and I'm thinking, we'll just trade him wherever. Like, if this team's not on your list, too bad. We're trading you to whoever gives us the best package. There's no list, there's no list anymore.

• 1:08:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I think after how they handled February, it seems like they're working with Rich Kleiman, KD's guy. It seems like they're being cooperative because the way they handled it in February was not the way things usually go in the NBA.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  What if the Toronto Raptors are just like, you know what, we're gonna try for a Kawhi 2.0 moonshot. Here's the best package you're gonna get. KD doesn't want to go there. We don't even care if you sign the extension.

• 1:08:53Bill Simmons?

  You know who I don't want to deal with is a semi or unhappy Kevin Durant.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:59Bill Simmons?

  I'm just not messing with that.

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  So, but like, what?

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  He should go to the Spurs. That's, that's how it's gonna play out.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Is he gonna be happy with the Spurs just because he decides he wants to go there?

• 1:09:08Bill Simmons?

  Here's the case for the Spurs. He went to the University of Texas. He loves Texas. He talks about it all the time. He's always respected the Spurs. He'll be like the respected veteran on the team. People in Texas like him. Like, the only two places he's ever really fit in, in a way where he loved the city, was Texas and Seattle.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  He picked the Nets.

• 1:09:32Bill Simmons?

  He picked the Nets, but he picked the team that was like the black sheep of the New York basketball scene.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  And he picked the Suns.

• 1:09:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  And he was 0 for 2 in happiness levels. And he was unhappy in Golden State at the end, too.

• 1:09:44Bill Simmons?

  He was unhappy the last year and a half of Golden State.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 1:09:48Bill Simmons?

  I think he would be happy on the Spurs.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I hope so. I mean, Kevin Durant is an awesome, awesome basketball player. I love everything.

• 1:09:55Bill Simmons?

  If you're the Spurs and you can keep enough stuff left to also make a Giannis run, you're doing it. And by the way.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 1:10:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Whoa, whoa, what?

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  Can they, is that even like?

• 1:10:07Bill Simmons?

  Sure.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  They've given away, they gave some of their picks away, including the Minnesota pick and the Fox deal. People forget, like, De'Aaron Fox is like a, it's like they, he's like a, we barely got to see it, right?

• 1:10:19Bill Simmons?

  I didn't forget because it's weird because they end up with number two pick. And guess what? I'm not sure they would have done the De'Aaron Fox trade if they knew that had happened.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:10:27Bill Simmons?

  I think they, because Dylan, Dylan Harper and De'Aaron Fox, even though they're completely different players, neither of them are great shooters.

• 1:10:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. It's a it's a little. They have to take Harper, it sounds like, but it's a little bit of a weird mix. And then you throw in Castle, too. I don't.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I think they're it would be so fascinating to be in their meetings right now because, you know, Fox is late twenties, right? Wemba Yama is super young. The rest of the team is super young. Durant's 37. The how much of our how much of our Wemby timeline are we actually willing to sacrifice for a guy who's, you know, closer to 40 than he is to 30? Uh, and how good in the West are we act? That's what you have to look in the mirror and say, if we have like Fox, Durant, Wemba Yama, let's say they even keep.

• 1:11:17Bill Simmons?

  Castle.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Castle. Who's left on our bench? Like Sohan is maybe going out in that trade. Barnes is going out in that trade. Is Keldon Johnson going out in that trade? Do we? Are we actually a championship contender? Is Wemba Yama already that good? Do we know enough about the Fox Wemba Yama fit?

• 1:11:33Bill Simmons?

  And can our number two pick play real minutes for us and help us right away?

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  In the West, are we? Are we actually? Can we win the free playoff series in the West?

• 1:11:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's why if you do the Durant thing, you're signing him for,

• 1:11:46Bill Simmons?

  what? You know, it's for at least two years would be my guess.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  I you, I mean.

• 1:11:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand the.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Do you want Durant on a two-year, 112 million dollar extension?

• 1:11:57Bill Simmons?

  Takes care of his body.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  Would you? But would you go to him and be like, hey?

• 1:12:01Bill Simmons?

  No, I would want him. I would want him to take less because there was two options, right? He could take 124 as well. As the 124 made me blink.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  That's he's got a he's got to wait, I think, a certain amount of time.

• 1:12:12Bill Simmons?

  He's got to wait six months and he could.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  But.

• 1:12:15Bill Simmons?

  Get that one.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  You know, I remember hearing stuff like, you know, as he as he and his people and the Suns sort of negotiate, his post-Felix landing spot, which might be the this might be the last thing. Like, this might be the last chapter of Kevin Durant's basketball career.

• 1:12:30Bill Simmons?

  Comes home to Texas.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  He should really want to get it right. Would he ever be like, you know, in this second apron era, Team X, you're, you know, you're going to be coming up against it. Like, I'll do two years, 60. I'll do like-

• 1:12:45Bill Simmons?

  Or maybe he just wants the one year because he wants to play in this goofy rival league that I talked about with Chuck Holstman the other day. This, this F1 International Basketball League that is, I think, a little closer to actually being real than a lot of people-

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  That's a big one.

• 1:13:00Bill Simmons?

  Give a credit for.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  It's a big curve ball.

• 1:13:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it's not a real thing. I did the, I like doing the double knots now. It's harder to aggregate me.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  I mean, let's just imagine, no, I'm not even gonna do it. I'm not gonna imagine. I'm just gonna pluck that all the way back before I say it. I'm just saying Durant taking less is a conversation I would want to have with him. Like, are you actually willing to do this to help us build out this team?

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Not saying you should.

• 1:13:26Bill Simmons?

  I brought this up because-

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  I'm saying that I think it's an idea that he's probably thought about himself.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, yeah, and also these guys have made staggering amounts of money on the court and off the court. And at some point, this is what Tom Brady did on the Patriots for the last 10 years he was there and he made the money back off the court. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins

• 1:14:09Bill Simmons?

  just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association Member, FTIC. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. You mentioned the Clippers for him.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  And that's how this whole thing started because I'd heard there was a little Clippers buzz.

• 1:14:59Bill Simmons?

  I can't figure out how it works. There'd have to be a third team. That third team would have to be really excited about acquiring James Harden or Norm Powell and Bogdanovich together.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  I think he goes there to play with Harden, Durant.

• 1:15:12Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  I think that's part of why the Clippers have at least thought about it.

• 1:15:15Bill Simmons?

  Alright, so if I'm the Suns, like, I'm not, is Zubats in the deal? He's not? Okay, fuck off.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  And I think that's why, as I said, I think that's why the Clippers will not end up with Kevin Durant.

• 1:15:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so can we just shut that down? Because Zubats is gonna be in the deal.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  I mean, you shut it-

• 1:15:31Bill Simmons?

  I'm sure the Clippers would love to have Kevin Durant.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Shut it down if you want.

• 1:15:33Bill Simmons?

  Are you gonna actually trade something for him? Because you're not getting it for Norm Powell and Batum and Chris Dunn and Bogdanovich and a shitty pick. Fuck off.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  You have to, you have to really think that the Suns would value the Clippers unprotected 2030 pick, a Clippers unprotected 2031 swap, and a Clippers unprotected 2032 pick. Like, really? Just as the Thunder have profited by betting against the Clippers' long-term future, the Suns think, well, those are-

• 1:16:01Bill Simmons?

  So you're saying the Suns, the stupidest team in the 21st century since the mid 2000s Knicks-

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:16:08Bill Simmons?

  With draft picks. Like, nobody has been more reckless and stupid with the concept of future picks. Maybe since Ted Stepien in the, in the 80s. That Bradley Beal trade and all the swaps and shit they did is some of the stupidest shit in the recent history of the league. So you're saying now that they would care about getting swaps with the Clippers? I think that, there's no way.

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  I just don't think, I don't think they value draft picks.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  The Suns are gonna have to look in the mirror and think, a- and, like, we traded present talent, really good present-day talent, and really good, every pick we had to get Kevin Durant. Now we're trading Kevin Durant, and we're not gonna be able to have the buffet of everything that we, that we traded for him. We're gonna have to choose on a sliding scale of salary relief, which is very important to us, draft picks, and win-now talent, because Devin Booker is still on our team, and we're just not, we're not gonna check all those boxes to the degree that we want.

• 1:17:12Bill Simmons?

  No. They basically, they spent $10 million on a house that was worth seven, and now they have to sell it for five.

• 1:17:21Bill Simmons?

  And that's it. And it was like, whoa, I should get 10. I paid 10. It's like, you're getting five.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  And look.

• 1:17:26Bill Simmons?

  That's how this is playing out.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  I'm, I have no idea what's gonna happen with Devin Booker. I really do believe there is that, from what I've heard, that Devin Booker really likes the idea of being a one-team player, like a Kobe for Phoenix. He's talked a lot about Kobe Bryant, what he means to him and all that. But if they come out of this trade with something that doesn't excite me for the next two or three years, like a player that I could be like, oh, that guy's fun to play with. And we know the Beal thing is not going anywhere. You know, he won't be on, he's not a long-term part of the Phoenix Suns' future. I'm looking around if I'm Devin Booker, like, is there a, is there a plan here of like, what is happening? Like, and he's already talked about, you know, we were so close in the finals not that long ago, and now what's happened to our team?

• 1:18:14Bill Simmons?

  And if you're Matt Ishbia, you have to look in the mirror.

• 1:18:18Bill Simmons?

  And you wonder, wait, that's Isaiah Thomas standing right behind me. It doesn't even work for me. Oh, wait, he does. He's my conciliary for some reason, but we're all pretending he's not.

• 1:18:29Bill Simmons?

  Boy, there's some good stories about that one.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  It's not great in Phoenix.

• 1:18:32Bill Simmons?

  Have you heard the stories about how he FaceTimes in the meetings?

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:40Bill Simmons?

  Might have been a coach interview. Or two, or more. Where he was on FaceTime in the meeting.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Everybody say, Nick rocks. One, two, three, Nick rocks. One, two, three, Jordan O'Toole rocks.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Jordan O'Toole does rock, by the way. He's gonna be a good coach.

• 1:18:57Bill Simmons?

  I'm putting the odds, I'm putting the odds on Giannis getting traded this summer at a minus, not, not getting traded at like minus 400.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  That's, that's a lot.

• 1:19:09Bill Simmons?

  That's a lot. I think he stays in Milwaukee. I think he wants to stay.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  They definitely wanted to stay.

• 1:19:14Bill Simmons?

  I think there's gonna be less action than people think, cause then Garland got the toe surgery, so cross him out.

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  I wouldn't have traded Garland anyway.

• 1:19:22Bill Simmons?

  Me neither. I would, I would if I, you gave me something incredible back for him.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  So, so Giannis is, I was, he's also had a couple tweets about getting back to the finals. I hope we get back to the finals the last couple of days.

• 1:19:35Bill Simmons?

  He had the interview where he talked about the Bucks getting back to the finals.

• 1:19:39Speaker 01

  I would still go not minus 400. I would go like minus 200 or so.

• 1:19:43Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Did you see his I miss Woj tweet? I thought that was weird.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, that didn't really, didn't really get where.

• 1:19:50Bill Simmons?

  Does he feel like things are being misreported?

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I miss Woj, but I, I don't know.

• 1:19:56Bill Simmons?

  The insinuation from a tweet like that is things are getting misreported, which I actually agree with because he's never said anything other than he's gonna be back in Milwaukee. And even when Shams did that weird media thing on that Monday where it's like, he's open to the possibility. It's like,

• 1:20:14Bill Simmons?

  did he ask for a trade? He didn't? So he's open to thinking about the future? Okay, cool. Who doesn't think about the future? It's not a story.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 1:20:27Bill Simmons?

  It's a story if he says Giannis went to the Bucks today and said, I think I'm ready to be traded. But it, by all accounts, he hasn't said that. And by the way, if you're Giannis, I'm watching this Pacers team that is now two wins from the finals and has won 14 playoff games. And I'm like, we were right there with those dudes in round one. Right? They lost in five, but they lost two of the stupidest games of the playoffs to them.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, the only problem with that is-

• 1:20:53Bill Simmons?

  They didn't have Dame. I'm just, I'm just saying, they weren't far away.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Round two, round three and round four.

• 1:20:58Bill Simmons?

  I get it, but I'm saying if I'm Giannis talking myself into Milwaukee, whether it's salvageable, I'd be like, whoa.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  Well, Eric, Eric Neeam is a-

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  It's talked about the gap year concept at The Athletic and you know, it's an interesting concept. I just don't know. Is it a gap year? Like, how do you make it just one year when you have very little draft equity at all and not that many?

• 1:21:23Bill Simmons?

  You're saying, no, if Dame's out for the year.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, like, but how do you make it just one year? Like, how do you say, well, by 2026, 27, we're going to be ready to, ready to rock again? Like,

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think Kevin Porter and Giannis can be the new big two?

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  And Kuz?

• 1:21:39Bill Simmons?

  Ju- rejuvenated Kuz. Take the summer seriously.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Didn't, oh, I have a question for you. Can I ask you a question?

• 1:21:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  A 1 a.m. question?

• 1:21:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  I didn't listen to the whole pod with Ryan yet, but someone told me today that you, you, you were, and I don't know if this is right. That's why I'm asking you. You were very confident that Philly is going to try to trade the number three pick. Is that person summarizing you inaccurately or?

• 1:22:05Bill Simmons?

  I, I am confident that they're exploring all options with the pick.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:22:10Bill Simmons?

  Whether they actually find a trade they like, but I think, I think, uh, I'm pretty confident that they're at least, I just think that's how Darryl has operated his entire career.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  They should.

• 1:22:24Bill Simmons?

  He's going to look at every possible option and then if it makes the most sense to do three and Paul George for something or however they want to do it. I think there's some really good dudes in this top five though. And the, and the, when they start working out and talking to them, they're going to, my guess would be they'll fall in love with one of the guys and that'll be that. There's a guy, uh, I've started to do my work. There's two guys that I think you're really going to dig. This edge cone.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've, I've watched them. I've watched.

• 1:22:51Bill Simmons?

  Easily could have played in the game we watched today and at least just athletically hung in. And then this Trey Johnson.

• 1:22:59Bill Simmons?

  Could be pretty exciting. Uh, as an offensive, he's six, four. They're weird. They have to decide Maxey, McCain. If you're adding a third, like six, three to six, five guy to that, then what does that mean? Is McCain your sixth man? I mean, you could look at Indiana.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  They gotta resign Grimes too. Like Grimes is something.

• 1:23:17Bill Simmons?

  Right. But I mean, you look at the Indiana model, it's like the more guards, the better, in my opinion. Just the way basketball is going, so.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  But their Indiana's guards are big and tough, other than, you know, Halliburton is not, is not like, Alburn's skinny, but like, he's still tall. Nemhard's tough. Matherin's tough.

• 1:23:33Bill Simmons?

  Did you, have you changed your, who, who's in the best situation for the next five years in the East answer? Now that we've gotten further along in the finals, because you did a thing with Waz after I talked to Ryan about it.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  I didn't need to.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  And I said Indiana was one. You had Cleveland one. Ryan had Cleveland one. I think Waz had Cleveland one.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  Look, if they win the championship, it's just, you just win. Like you win all the polls. So yes, if they win, I guess, I would have to. I guess I would have to. There are two, one in the finals. They're a championship caliber team.

• 1:24:01Bill Simmons?

  I thought you made, I thought Ryan made a good case. I think. Waz made a good, or you and Waz both made the Cleveland case, I think is the right answer because.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  It's the only other candidate.

• 1:24:10Bill Simmons?

  You have the most options with Mobley, Garland and Mitchell. Even if it's not working out with those as your best three and Allen, they still have a lot of different things they could do. That would be why, but if Indiana wins the title.

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you win the title, you just win all the polls for a little while. That's all. And they're, even if they don't win the title, I will, if Oklahoma City wins the next three games. Indiana has proven itself a championship caliber team.

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  Minia, Boston, a year ago. It's a Dallas. Wondering if this would be the first of a couple of titles now. Jaylen Brown shaving his meniscus. Jaylen, Jason Tatum, day 27 of Achilles rehab. Drew Holiday, Porzingis trade rumors. I don't know what happened.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  I mean, do we know what happened with Porzingis at all?

• 1:25:03Bill Simmons?

  Hotel room in Indiana with you, one in the morning, talking about Kevin Durant, if he likes Texas or not. What happened to my Celtics life?

• 1:25:10Speaker 01

  I mean, we don't even know what happened to Porzingis. Like.

• 1:25:13Bill Simmons?

  Still don't know.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Bill Simmons?

  Would love an answer on that at some point. Some sort of medical verdict.

• 1:25:19Speaker 01

  It's, yeah.

• 1:25:22Bill Simmons?

  Anything happen?

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  The ultimate, the ultimate team. Look, we're getting a little groggy now, but the ultimate team, when you say like, what happened? What happened to us? We're just like looking around like, what? How did we get here is Sacramento? Just looking around like. How did we become the, the Bulls? Like the mediocre Bull, that's who we are now and like, but with Sabonis? We, how is this our team? Like Zach Levine makes how much? DeMar, DeMar DeRozan's like around doing stuff? Malik Monk's our point guard? What happened?

• 1:25:55Bill Simmons?

  How about, we had Halliburton?

• 1:25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, how did we get here? The Bean team was so fun.

• 1:26:02Bill Simmons?

  God, I hated that trade for them.

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  How did, what happened?

• 1:26:05Bill Simmons?

  I think I went, I haven't heard the pod about it, but I think I said. I think I went all in on that one. That I thought it was a massive mistake by them. Cause you know, when we are, we talk about stuff after a thing and I'm like, I think this, I think that. And then occasionally it's like, I feel so strongly about this. I want to put some, can you put this down in pen?

• 1:26:27Bill Simmons?

  I just couldn't believe they traded him.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  So let's go back to, let's, now we're really.

• 1:26:32Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, the Sabonis thing, they got good value and it turned out it was a good trade for both sides. I get it, but I just, I just never ever would have traded him.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  Not a win-win. The ultimate one though, you put, and many people put their flag down most aggressively on was Gobert. And so it's interesting to think now, like.

• 1:26:48Bill Simmons?

  I still have no regrets on that one.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  I don't think you should. It is undeniable that they have gotten further as a franchise than they have ever gotten before two years in a row.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  And yet it still feels like, how? Like they gave up so much to get him, but like.

• 1:27:07Bill Simmons?

  I will say this, the one thing I was definitely wrong about, and I remember saying this as a critique of the trade, was you do that trade when Anthony Edwards is like 24, 25, and he's close to hitting his prime. I think the, the, the thing they saw that I guess none of us saw was that he was way closer to.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  That was the bet.

• 1:27:24Bill Simmons?

  A top seven guy than I think we thought.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  And the, the really interesting thing about it was part of the reason that a lot of us didn't like that trade at first blush, and even at second and third blush was, well, it's just, you're just inevitably going to have to trade Towns because the salary crunch is just, you're just not going to be able to have these guys. And he's the obvious guy. Like you're not, obviously not going to trade Ant.

• 1:27:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh man, we didn't talk about the, the real topic of, uh, the finals, the, the Knicks coaching search. The fact that the Knicks are back.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Quinn, Quinn Snyder.

• 1:27:59Bill Simmons?

  This whole thing where you just ask for permission for people who are under contract, I've never heard of such a thing.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  Let's go through, it's, it's.

• 1:28:05Bill Simmons?

  They did everybody but Steve Kerr and Spoelstra.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Quinn Snyder, Billy Donovan, uh, Ime Udoka, Chris Finch. I think we're even missing one.

• 1:28:13Bill Simmons?

  Jason Kidd.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Jason Kidd, that's the one I was missing. At this point, if you're a coach and they haven't, it's like, boy, do I, do I suck? Like, why are the Knicks calling about me?

• 1:28:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it has hit that point where you start to.

• 1:28:25Bill Simmons?

  You start to wonder, is it you?

• 1:28:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what they do. If I were them, I would just hire Taylor Jenkins. I thought he was a really good coach. And I, I think you could explain his lack of success in Memphis, or, I mean, he was successful, but.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Can you say like Ctrl Z on the Tibbs thing? It's like, hey.

• 1:28:47Bill Simmons?

  The papers are, are, aren't handed in yet.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Saw the ad in the Times that you place the message, a little letter in the Times, really touching.

• 1:28:58Bill Simmons?

  Really, really tugged on my heartstrings.

• 1:29:02Speaker 01

  Wait, is Taylor Jenkins?

• 1:29:04Bill Simmons?

  What was wrong with him?

• 1:29:05Speaker 01

  Nothing. I just think that if you're the New York Knicks and you've made the conference finals, you fired your coach who's this 67-year-old veteran, whatever he is, coach,

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  with a mandate to win the championship. I just don't think you're going to the guy who was in the like little small market over here. Like, I don't think James Dolan even knows who Taylor Jenkins is. I think Taylor Jenkins is an awesome coach and he would be toward the top of my list, if not at the top of it, too.

• 1:29:31Bill Simmons?

  Because even he has the ready-made explanation of, yeah, things were going really well. And then crazy shit started happening with my star player. Oh, and Brandon Clark was my glue guy and he just kept getting season-ending injuries.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  I can't believe the name that I'm surprised hasn't come up is Vogel. Just because veteran coach, likeable personality, New York area ties. And I was talking to some people about that today. And the word retread came up, like too much of a retread. I'm like, okay. I, I think that's a little unfair to him because like Phoenix is just, I just think everyone gets a pass for getting fired in Phoenix. It's almost like a badge of honor.

• 1:30:09Bill Simmons?

  It's like the zookeeper in a zoo where the, where the, where the bears attacked a lion. And it's like, wow, this is the zookeeper's spot.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  Well, and also they at least like made the playoffs and the Lakers, he wins the championship, gets fired amid the rust disaster and like, you know.

• 1:30:26Bill Simmons?

  You know, I think Vogel's a good coach. Yeah. I mean, like, I just, I'm surprised that name hasn't come up. A lot of the dots make sense of just like veteran coach. How funny is it going to be when they hire Mike Woodson?

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  I can't, you can't. You could. Not that funny to Knicks fans. I don't know.

• 1:30:43Bill Simmons?

  Would you bet your life that they wouldn't hire Mike Woodson?

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  I wouldn't bet my life on anything Knicks-related. They just called six coaches in 24 hours just for fun. Hey, Atlanta. Hey, Atlanta. No?

• 1:30:55Bill Simmons?

  They were so competent. Also, like whoever gets the job has to keep the best player's dad on the team as an assistant coach. Not exactly like enticing. So I get to coach in the New York Fish Bowl. I'm expected to win a title. There's a weird coaching staff situation that, by the way, a lot of people are talking about underneath in the undergrounds. It's not great.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Would you, here's the question. If you were Leon Rose or whoever's making the calls, let's just say Leon Rose.

• 1:31:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  Would you even have the guts, the gall, the audacity to call Pat Riley? Would just to do it like, hey, we gotta check this Spo box. Like, we gotta see, like, don't we have to see?

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  Given Riley's history with-

• 1:31:38Bill Simmons?

  I thought Spo-

• 1:31:39Speaker 01

  Would you even do it? Just to, just to do it?

• 1:31:42Bill Simmons?

  I housed around Spo initially when this all started.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  You screenshotted his text.

• 1:31:48Bill Simmons?

  I thought he seemed miserable last season. That was the only, only thing about it that made me pause for a second.

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  See, I, I just, I, I disagree with you on, on one level. When they were losing, what did they have, like an eight or nine game losing streak at some point when it was all coming apart for them? And he, in one of the press conferences said, you know, like, actually, I just, I love this. Like, I love that we have to get together as a group and dig out of this. He's not, that's not like Spo speak. He really loves like-

• 1:32:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, not only did they not dig out-

• 1:32:18Speaker 01

  Solve this problem.

• 1:32:18Bill Simmons?

  Not only did not dig out, they had like an embarrassing exit.

• 1:32:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wasn't great. The Cavs just traipsing all over Miami and Max Strus and-

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  So if I was Miami, I would all time blow it up.

• 1:32:35Bill Simmons?

  I would trade Bam. I wouldn't do the Harrow extension. I would trade Spo to the Knicks. I would just completely blow it up.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Spo's getting, Spo's getting-

• 1:32:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just, I, I completely blow it up. It seems like they're gonna go the other way and like, they're kicking the tires on Durant too.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  I was just imagining the most preposterous phone call possible is Leon Rose calling Pat Riley about Erik Spoelstra. That's the most preposterous thing. I'm really rooting for that to come out.

• 1:32:59Bill Simmons?

  Well, with, considering they've called everybody else. Like, would you be shocked?

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  I would be a little shocked.

• 1:33:09Bill Simmons?

  We have to go, cause now my head's starting to hurt.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:12Bill Simmons?

  So, we're gonna come back on Friday night on your podcast.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:17Bill Simmons?

  The Zach Lowe Show. Uh, we're not gonna be live, but we're gonna come after game four. We're gonna do the exact same setup. Hopefully, we figure out, we'll learn from the kinks. We only had one stop and start this time around. Um, but, uh, we were gonna do that and it'll be up on your YouTube channel as well.

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  This will be on my YouTube channel. This will be a video podcast on Spotify as well.

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  Hopefully, hopefully that everything works.

• 1:33:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, hopefully everything worked. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well for, uh, for producing for us. And thanks to Zach Lowe. I'll see you, uh, I'll see you in Indy tomorrow, but.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're here.

• 1:33:51Bill Simmons?

  Game four, real stakes.

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  Love a great.

• 1:33:53Bill Simmons?

  What did we say? Magical or?

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Calamity or magical.

• 1:33:56Bill Simmons?

  Calamity, calamity or magical. Got to work on that.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  That's every Pacers game is like that. They've had five calamity or magical games in one playoff run. Was game one against the Knicks a calamity or magical? Magical, I'm going magical across the board.

• 1:34:09Bill Simmons?

  What a great place this is. All right, uh, I'll see you, uh, I'll see you tomorrow in Indiana.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 1:34:28Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino. Or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys.

• 1:35:09Bill Simmons?

  Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by 7-Up. Okay, this one's a case for conspiracy bill. Let's bring them in.

• 1:35:54Bill Simmons?

  Ever noticed lemon is everywhere? From lemon recipes to lemon-scented cleaning supplies? And when it comes to lemon lime sodas? Why is lemon always first? There's a reason. A shadowy organization called the A Lemonade has been padding the stats, keeping big lemon in the lead for decades. But let me tell you something. The sip is about to be flipped. 7-Up is fighting back, swapping lemon lime for their new Lime Lemon Soda. Now lime comes first. 7-Up, flip the sip.