Brené on Strong Ground Ask Me Anything, Part 1 of 2

In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the importance of pausing during big decisions where action is not always impact, breaks down how to be courageous when it’s not the popular choice, and emphasizes the role of curiosity and thoughtfulness when moving through uncertainty and overwhelm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:09Brené Brown?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown, and this is Dare to Lead. I know I've said it like 100 times, but I should, if I keep saying it for the rest of my life, it will not convey appropriately my gratitude to Adam Grant for jumping in and doing a six-part series with me on the new book, Strong Ground. Just, Adam, thank you for your thinking, your rethinking, your rumbles, your challenges, the laughter. I'm going to have you sending me little hand hearts before you know it. Very grateful. We got a bunch of questions for the two-part AMA, so I think we should just jump in. I'm going to start with question one. This is from Shakur in Bangladesh.

• 1:53Brené Brown?

  What's one mindset shift you think leaders often overlook when facing complex challenges?

• 2:02Brené Brown?

  I think there, I think there are probably two or three mindset shifts that are very helpful right now. I don't think anything is more helpful than the mindset of creating time where none exists.

• 2:23Brené Brown?

  The, the last chapter in Strong Ground is a reference to one of my favorite quotes, between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is the power of choice and in our choice is our, our growth and our liberation. I think one mindset shift that can get us to just pulling the space open between stimulus and response is to remember that action is not impact.

• 2:54Brené Brown?

  And that taking a breath and as a leader modeling a breath for your team is an incredibly powerful practice. And we're not talking about slowing down six weeks. We're talking about slowing down for six minutes. We're talking about taking a breath. We're talking about thinking, man, this is a big decision. Should we run a pre-mortem on this? Should we take a minute and think, man, it's six months from now and this has gone to shit? What do you think we're going to be talking about? And is there something we should be doing right now? So I think the biggest mindset shift really is that action is not always impact.

• 3:37Brené Brown?

  That urgency is not what we're looking for. We're looking for productive urgency. And a pause is a power move. Thank you for the question. It's so good. And just in FYI, the attribution on the quote about stimulus and response, we really don't know who that belongs to. It's been attributed to Viktor Frankl and Covey. We've done big, deep dives with their teams and neither one of them say that they said it. It aligns beautifully with their work, but the exact attribution is unknown. Okay. Number two, this is from Patrick in Tempe, Arizona.

• 4:23Brené Brown?

  How do you lead from within an organization or culture where those higher in power or those higher in the org chart lead with models that are opposite of Dare to Lead? When vulnerability is viewed as weakness from those higher places than where you sit on the org chart? I think this is a really important and timely question. I get it all the time. I don't think courage is ever very popular. I think that's why it's rare. I think we so admire daring and courageous leadership because we see it so seldom.

• 5:03Brené Brown?

  And I don't think you need permission to be brave with your choices. What I do think, however, is you have to link what you're doing strategically with what other people hold important, not in terms of culture, but in terms of performance and mission. So I did a really great role play. It was so fun at Wharton when I was actually with Adam. The day before the book launch, we did something together and it was really a role play around someone saying, I want to lead differently.

• 5:47Brené Brown?

  And the thing that I would do is I would get very clear with the person I reported to around what success looks like, how are we measuring it? And then I would play it back. So I'd say, I want to, I want to be a part of winning. I want to contribute value to this mission. Can I get really clear on, from you, what you want? And let's say this person says, and even though they lead very differently than you and may even diminish some of the things, the basic tenets of Dare to Lead or drawing ground, this person says, yeah, we need to reduce churn by 20% and we need to grow, you know, this vertical by 25%. And then this is such a good opportunity for you to say, can I just play back what you're saying because I want to get it right because I want to contribute here.

• 6:32Brené Brown?

  We need to reduce churn by 20% in this sector of the business. And at the exact same time we're doing that, we need to grow. Revenue in this sector of the business by doing these following things. And the minute the person that you're talking to says, that's exactly what we need to do. Then it's an opportunity for you to say, great. I've got it. You've checked off, you've signed off on the playback. I think I know how to lead my team to accomplish this. And I'd like some leeway to get it done. When do we need to get done by? And so one of the things that we see is, I mean, even politically right now.

• 7:13Brené Brown?

  We're not having real talks, real conversation about the vision and mission of democracy. We're having cultural fights about things. Because that's easier to do. It's easier to talk about what's weakness, what's brave, what's this? Than to say, here's my vision, here's what a success looks like.

• 7:37Brené Brown?

  Find the delta between what we believe and other people believe. But then if we do have a shared mission, people are less concerned about the cultural approaches that you take to get there. So that would be my suggestion. It's worked for me throughout my career. I mean, I remember when I first started teaching, there was a real push on teaching evaluations. And there was a real push on making good on the commitments that are in the syllabi around what content students were going to have some level of mastery over at the end of a graduate class. Because I was teaching masters and PhD classes. And so I remember saying to my dean, let me make sure I'm understanding. These are the five objectives of this class.

• 8:18Brené Brown?

  You need me to meet these successfully in a measurable way. You need my teaching evaluations to have mean scores on all five elements of at least this. Yeah, that's right. Okay, well, I want to, I want to teach this my way. And I'd like a shot at doing that as long, you know? And I had a really radical, different approach in the classroom. I used a lot of feminist pedagogy. And I was able to get it done in a way that was empowering to the students. And I met all the objectives that were clear and clearly important to my dean.

• 8:56Brené Brown?

  So this has been successful for me. I suggest you try it, but you start with understanding what's on the heart and mind of your leaders. What is it that you need to accomplish? What's measurable? And then ask for leeway in how you get there.

• 9:18Speaker 00

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• 10:02Speaker 03

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• 10:41Brené Brown?

  Okay, three question from Lisa in San Francisco. How do you define courage and boldness in times of uncertainty, especially for those of us in tech facing the rise of AI? We're navigating a moment where we don't know yet the full potential of AI or which roles it may transform, replace, or eliminate. What guidance would you offer on staying grounded in managing the anxiety that comes with such unknowns? I mean, the first thing I would say is, I don't think we can have any of these conversations without first acknowledging that we're not neurobiologically hardwired for the level of uncertainty that we're in. This is just not how our brain works. Like, our brain's number one goal above all else is survival and safety.

• 11:26Brené Brown?

  And so it perceives uncertainty as a threat. It pushes us very quickly to resign, reconcile, you know, get as certain as possible, even if it's counter to our values, counter to business strategy, counter to smart thinking. It doesn't matter. Just give us, give me some, give me a big ol' heapin' dose of certainty, even if it's dysfunctional certainty. So I think the first thing, Lisa, is for all of us, and not just you, and not just in tech, is to take a deep breath and understand two things. One, neurobiologically, uncertainty has a huge cognitive price tag, which is why we're tired. Number two, overwhelm.

• 12:11Brené Brown?

  I love Jon Kabat-Zinn's definition of overwhelm. The world is unfolding at a rate that is not manageable by my nervous system. And the real only cure for overwhelm is some period that's individually determined, some period of nothingness, so we can reset our nervous systems. So I think, once we can understand three things that are big, big words, big constructs, but I'll share what I think about them. One, self-awareness. Two, metacognition. Three, emotional awareness. So I think the first thing we need to do, when you say, "How do you find courage and boldness?", is

• 12:56Brené Brown?

  understand that what we're up against is really hard on us, physically, emotionally, and mentally. Two, understand that overwhelm requires a period of nothingness. I'm usually gonna have to, I'm gonna have to walk it out, to work it out, always. I'm gonna have to physically move my body to get into a centered place where I can, where courage is even in the consideration set. And three, that kind of emotional awareness that, hey,

• 13:23Brené Brown?

  I'm in anxiety right now. One thing we know is that anxiety is one of the, if not the, most contagious human emotions that we experience. A lot of folks coming out of Bowen family systems and some great research done in clinical work would argue that anxiety is never a function of individuals. It's always a function of groups because it's so contagious. And so I think we've got to get the pitch, like the playing field. We need to understand the context in which we're operating. So this is hard on us and exhausting cognitively. Overwhelmed requires, you know, it takes me 10 or 15 minutes of nothingness to reset my nervous system. And three, our anxiety is contagious and other people's

• 14:04Brené Brown?

  anxiety is contagious to us. Once we can settle ourselves, I think what courage looks like, or how I define it, is not any different than I would define it outside, well, I don't, I don't think I've ever been alive during certainty, but certainly this is the most uncertain things have been. I think what it looks like is the willingness to find potential in yourself and other people and processes and the courage to develop that potential. So stay very curious. In uncertainty, the opposite of curiosity will always be

• 14:45Brené Brown?

  defensiveness or being territorial. To stay curious, to ask a lot of questions, to take a lot of deep breaths, and move thoughtfully, that mindfulness piece, move thoughtfully. The last one, I would say, what courage looks like is the ability to be a learner again, and that's the metacognition, to understand how you learn. And it is time for all of us to do a little rereading on systems theory. I personally recommend my favorite systems theorist is someone I quote a lot in the book, Dana Meadows or Donella Meadows. We need to start thinking about our jobs, our teams, our orgs, and what's happening externally

• 15:28Brené Brown?

  in terms of tech, shifting markets, geopolitical instability and volatility. We have to start thinking in systems theory. That's how we're going to get clear problem identification. It's also how we're going to get closer to solution. Thank you for your question. It's a good one. Okay, four is from Mehdi in Canada. How can leaders balance the realism of navigating difficult business conditions with the courage to set bold, people-centered aspirations that inspire hope and long-term commitment? In other words, so still the question, how do we avoid shrinking our vision when it comes, when times are tough, instead of using adversity as a catalyst for collective boldness? I like this question.

• 16:12Brené Brown?

  How can we use adversity as a catalyst for collective boldness? I, I, this is, this is a great saying that says there, there are two types of people. One group divides people into two types of people and one group doesn't. I think that's funny because I'm going to say, I think there's two organizations right now, basically those who are actually using adversity as a catalyst for collective boldness and those that are shrinking in the face of adversity. The language I use to talk about this a lot in Strong Ground is people who are playing not to lose versus organizations and teams who are playing to win. And playing to win is definitely about using adversity as a catalyst.

• 16:57Brené Brown?

  And playing not to lose is trying to keep your foot on the ball despite the conditions. And it definitely involves this great word that you're using here, which is shrinking. I think the way that we do that is kind of all the answers to questions one through three, we need to settle the ball. You know, Strong Ground starts with a story about an injury that I experienced playing pickleball. And when I went to the trainer, I found out a couple of hard things. One, I had no core. And two, this injury that I had that was really, really, God, it was painful. Like, I would say I've had two kids. It was worse than labor by an order of magnitude.

• 17:42Brené Brown?

  Because I just, there was nothing I could do to alleviate it. There was no position, no way I could move or stand or lie. There was just nothing I could do to make it go away. It was so unrelenting. And so what I found out in the trainer, in the gym, from the trainer is that it was a compensatory injury because I was, I had no core, no lats, no glutes, no stomach. So I was using inefficient and insufficient muscle groups to do the hard work on the pickleball court instead of using the muscles that were built to do that kind of work. So I was using my back instead of my core. I was using my arms and my shoulders instead of my traps.

• 18:24Brené Brown?

  I was using, you know, my hips in some weird way and my legs instead of my glutes. And so this idea of compensatory injury and needing a core became the metaphor for strong ground. And I think one of the things that's interesting is when I wrote that big honking chapter in strong ground about what I thought, the, the combination of skillsets and mindsets that we need to future ready, future proof, get out and, you know, play to win. It, it, it was 30, it was 30 things. And I thought, you know what, let me get to, what is the core here? And the core of these 30 things, because I divided it up into our core, our, you know, our awareness, our thinking, our communicating.

• 19:08Brené Brown?

  Our core were those five things we've been talking about since I started the podcast right now, which is self-awareness, metacognition, understanding how we learn, thinking about our thinking, emotional awareness, mindfulness and strategic thinking. And so I think it's hard to use adversity as a catalyst for collective boldness without a strong core. Cause you gotta get, you gotta ground in like athletic stance, core engaged and ready to be, you know, ready for collective boldness. That, that's what it takes.

• 19:49Brené Brown?

  So if our core is not solid individually and collectively, if we don't have a critical mass of team members whose core is solid, we're not going to be able to push against the adversity and be bold.

• 20:11Speaker 04

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• 21:32Brené Brown?

  Okay, from Michael in Munich, Germany. What's the wildest question you've gotten so far? This is funny because I think the wildest question, three or four people, I think the first person besides my editor, Ben, who asked me this, was Dan Pink. And we were together in Washington DC for a book event, and he said, wow, do you think you've got the first book? Maybe in the world that has a chapter on John Keats, the poet, followed by like a chapter on the Philadelphia Eagles quarterback sneak play called the tush push. And I started laughing and it's, it's a wild question to me because yeah, I probably am.

• 22:18Brené Brown?

  Maybe the first to have both John Keats, because I love his work on negative capability, the ability to stay in uncertainty, the ability to stay in mystery and not reach for definitive answers out of fear and the need for certainty, but to stay in the tension of paradox, to stay in the tension of not knowing. Again, John Keats in a letter to his brothers called that negative capability. He praised Shakespeare for having it.

• 22:49Brené Brown?

  And then there is a, a chapter on the tush push because on the tush push, the Philadelphia Eagles in a short yardage play, they take all gajillion pounds of them, push their legs and their feet deep into the turf and physically use Newtonian physics to move the ball a yard or a yard and a half. And the thing that was wild to me about that question is these are both skills we need. We need the, the negative capability of the poet John Keats and we need the Newtonian teamwork of the Philadelphia Eagles. And the wild question was wild to me is because in that moment,

• 23:31Brené Brown?

  I'm going to use poetry to explain poetry, maybe. Um, I asked the audience of a thousand folks in DC, raise your hand if a good line of poetry, a beautiful poem can light you up. And hands went up across the room. And then I said, and raise your hand if you love college or pro football. And hands went up across the room like Walt Whitman, we, we contain multitudes. Like we are despite the social media algorithms desperate attempt to file us into small sardine airtight drawers where we can't breathe and we can't move.

• 24:15Brené Brown?

  And we're all supposed to like the same thing and hate the same people. And you know, despite all that, we actually contain multitudes. And so what's wild to me is

• 24:27Brené Brown?

  As a researcher, I use a lot of metaphors and a lot of stories that are shared with me by the people whom I, you know, the people whom I interview. And we're all just people. And it's wild to me that when I reflect our most basic humanity, people find that so weird and wild, instead of saying, man, humans are so weird and wild, which is actually the case. Okay, AMA number one, I've got one more coming up to end this Dare to Lead series. I'm grateful for y'all. Thank you for sending in so many questions. We tried to bucket them

• 25:11Brené Brown?

  so that we had questions that represented, you know, 10 or 20 of the same type of question, but then we could put a name to it. So for the folks who had asked questions this time, very grateful and thank you all for sending them in. And I'll see you next week with the second AMA and the last in our Strong Ground series. Stay awkward, brave, and kind.

• 25:36Brené Brown?

  Dare to Lead is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group. Music is by The Sufferers. Get new episodes as soon as they're published by following Dare to Lead on your favorite podcast app. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award-winning shows at podcasts.voxmedia.com.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard, but if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/vox.

• 26:44Speaker 03

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