The Psychology of Cheaters (According To A Divorce Lawyer) | James Sexton

Thanks to SoFi for sponsoring this episode! Looking for funding to help grow your business? Get started at SoFi.com/Codie. #SoFiPartner #ad My new book, Own Or Be Owned, is all about building a business so good it doesn't need you. I broke it into the 12 Profit Levers… The 12 levers I've seen determine whether you print cash or hate your life. Check it out: https://contrarianthinking.biz/bigdeal-sexton -cs You've been telling yourself the same story. That you need to work harder on your marriage. That you need to read more books, take more courses, find the perfect framework. Here's the truth: the only thing between you and the relationship you want is believing you need something you don't already have. James Sexton is one of the world's most famous divorce attorneys who has represented clients in more than a thousand divorces. He's seen every way a marriage can fail and every pattern that predicts it. In this episode, he breaks down the exact signs that a relationship is ending, why disconnection happens so slowly you don't even notice, and the simple daily habits that separate couples who last from couples who don't. In this episode, you'll learn: The sound of a dying marriage: why the tone of voice that says whatever or what reveals more than any argument ever could, and how contempt kills connection faster than cheating Why babies don't cause divorce but disconnection does, and how the mental load of parenting makes couples forget that their love built the baby in the first place The menu framework: how offering your partner options instead of expecting them to read your mind creates safety, and why asking do you need space or do you need to talk right now changes everything Why men ask did you have sex with him and women ask do you love her, and what that reveals about how men and women experience betrayal completely differently The eight mile strategy: how getting ahead of your own weaknesses in a relationship disarms defensiveness, and why showing your partner your flaws is the only way they can truly love you ___________ (00:00:00) Introduction: The Sound of a Marriage About to End (00:01:33) The What Huh Whatever: How Contempt Kills Connection (00:04:46) The Story Retelling Test: When Your Partner Becomes Boring (00:05:57) The Spiral of Apathy: How Disconnection Happens Slowly Then All at Once (00:07:16) The Text Message Strategy: 30 Seconds That Could Save Your Marriage (00:10:15) The Eight Billion People Problem: Why Your Partner Is Your Favorite Person (00:11:50) The Evidence Test: Cross-Examining Your Own Relationship (00:15:24) Social Media and the Performative Self: Hashtag Blessed While Negotiating Divorce (00:18:06) The Manual We Never Got: Why No One Teaches Us How to Love (00:22:38) Babies and Disconnection: The Crisis That Pulls Couples Apart (00:24:56) You Can't Pretend You Meant to Get Divorced: The Humility of Failure (00:27:29) Men and Women Get Each Other Wrong: The Defensiveness Trap (00:30:10) Creating Safe Space: Why Men Don't Tell You What You Don't Want to Hear (00:34:46) Love Is Not Permanently Gifted, It's Loaned: The Fragility of Connection (00:36:59) Cheating and Infidelity: The 70 Percent Reality (00:39:56) Did You Have Sex With Him: How Men and Women Experience Betrayal Differently (00:42:35) The Economy of Monogamy: What We Owe Each Other in a Committed Relationship (00:47:32) The Imaginary Perfect Partner: Comparing Real People to Fantasy (00:59:19) The Shaving Story: How You Ask the Question Dictates the Answer (01:03:46) The Eight Mile Strategy: Owning Your Weaknesses Before They're Used Against You (01:06:13) The Persuasion Principle: Great Advocacy Doesn't Look Like Advocacy (01:10:57) A Good Lawyer Knows the Law, A Great Lawyer Knows the Judge (01:14:27) The Menu Framework: Listening, Fixing, or Distraction (01:17:48) Does Marriage Still Work: The 70 Percent Failure Rate Question (01:19:45) Chapters in a Long Book: Reframing Divorce as Part of Your Story, Not Failure (01:26:09) The Vulnerability Invitation: Showing Your Weaknesses So You Can Feel Real Love ___________ MORE FROM BIGDEAL 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@podcastbigdeal 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bigdeal.podcast 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@big.deal.pod MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@codiesanchezct 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/codiesanchez 📽️ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@realcodiesanchez OTHER THINGS WE DO 🌐 Our community: https://contrarianthinking.typeform.com/to/WBztXXID 📰 Free newsletter: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3XWLlZp 📚 Biz buying course: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3NhjGgN 🏠 Resibrands: https://resibrands.com/ 💰 CT Capital: https://contrarianthinking.biz/4eRyGOk 🏦 Main St Hold Co: https://contrarianthinking.biz/3YfGa8u Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  The action's on the court. And as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch, and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026 and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  You can't pretend you meant to get divorced. When you were walking down the aisle, you believed that this was gonna work out. There's something beautiful to be found in here. I think that can be an amazing thing. You don't have to wait to get divorced to do that.

• 0:42Codie Sanchez?

  My guest today is James Sexton, one of the world's most famous divorce attorneys, who has seen more than 1,000 marriages end. And he's gonna share exactly what the relationships do that last and what those do that fail.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies, to look at the other and be able to say, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am. And they're still my favorite person in the world.

• 1:07Codie Sanchez?

  There's a 70% failure rate. Does marriage still work?

• 1:10Speaker 01

  The question people most often ask me is...

• 1:16Codie Sanchez?

  I wanna start with just the basics. Right now, you're in a room, two people. How can you tell somebody is going to get divorced or not? What are the most telltale signs?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  I mean, some of it is gonna obviously be the way that they relate to each other verbally, like how much they're listening to each other, how much they're talking past each other or over each other, how much grace they give each other. I've always said, like, to me, the sound of a marriage that's about to end is like, it's a very simple, subtle sound. It's this, it's, "What? Huh? Yeah, whatever." Like, it's a tone of voice more than a content. And the tone of voice says everything. It's like, "The what? Like, why are you talking again? Like, what are you, what? Like, it's the contempt. It's the opposite. If you think about it, it's the opposite of when we're dating. Like, when we're dating, we're interested and we're interesting.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  And we feel interesting and we feel interested. And there's this sense of like, "Tell me about you, I wanna know. And let me tell you about me." And like, there's this feeling of this exchange. And then, like, when we're together and it's falling apart, it's the total opposite of that. It's that sense of like, "What are you saying?" Like, and that, to me, is the sound of it. The feeling of it is a different thing, too. I mean, anybody who's ever been out with, like, a bunch of couples and one of them, you just, like, the vibe is just, did they get in a fight on the way over here or do they just hate each other? Like, what's going on? Like, and you can just kind of feel it in the way that they're interacting or not, like, looking at their phones instead, while the other one's talking, that they're just not even, "What? Yeah, what? Yeah, alright." You know, like, it's a feeling. And I think, you know, again, like,

• 2:58Speaker 01

  I think studying the opposite is really the thing. Like, when we fall in love so fast and it's such a powerful emotion, it's so intoxicating, it's such a deep connection, and then we very slowly disconnect. And it happens slowly. And it's just one of those things that then you turn around and go like, "How did we get here? Like, we never meant to get here. How did we get here?" Like, nobody ever wakes up and just goes, "Yeah, I think I'm gonna, like, really fuck my life up today." You know, "I'm just gonna really just take this fundamental, foundational relationship that I've invested a tremendous amount of my life capital in and I'm just gonna let it go to shit." Like, I don't think anybody thinks that. And yet, you know, 50% or so of marriages end catastrophically, meaning they divorce.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  Another 10 to 20% either separate but never file for divorce, go out for milk and never come back, or they just sort of unhappily stay together and under surveys basically say, "Yeah, I kind of don't think this person has any value to my life anymore." Which, again, why would we sign up for something that fails roughly 60 to 70% of the time? Or at least doesn't, it catastrophically fails close to 50% of the time and doesn't achieve the goal 70% of the time? And yet, we do, over and over again.

• 4:14Codie Sanchez?

  So what if we think about the opposite of that? Like, the other day, I was talking to my husband, Chris, you know well, and...

• 4:20Speaker 01

  I love Chris.

• 4:21Codie Sanchez?

  I know, he's very lovable.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  We have such a bromance going on. It's the jujitsu thing. It's like, we just struggle cuddles. You just immediately are bonded, you know?

• 4:28Codie Sanchez?

  Jujitsu, guys who like jujitsu and poetry are rare.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, after we recorded our last conversation and Chris and I, I felt like we were in the movie Step Brothers. You know, like, it's like, did we just become best friends? Yup. You know, like, it was just instant. And all of a sudden, we're in these three-way texts with you and you're just on the sidelines while he and I are bro-ing out. I feel really badly about that.

• 4:48Codie Sanchez?

  Well, I think it's great. I have so much fun, you two are so hysterical. But it's funny, because the other night, I told Chris, you know how in a marriage, somebody will tell the same story 52 times?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:58Codie Sanchez?

  Right? All the time, we both do it. Well, why do you do that? Because it's a really great fucking story.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:03Codie Sanchez?

  Right? I got mine in my back pocket. And I realized at some point, I would like, be like, "Okay, I've heard that one."

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Skip to the end.

• 5:10Codie Sanchez?

  Right? And he was so good, because he basically said to me, he's like, "You know, I can tell when you are doing that thing where you're like, trying to get me to move forward in a story." And I was like, "Oh, fuck, you can tell that?"

• 5:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:21Codie Sanchez?

  And I was like, "That's a shame." Like, and I said to him, "I'm so sorry, because I find you so interesting and that story is actually really good. So when I reframe it, like, I love that you get to talk a bunch at dinner. I don't have to talk as much." And he like, really liked the compliment. He was like, "Well, thanks for..." Because I probably hadn't said to him in a while, "You are so interesting. I love listening to you." So I guess my question here is like, what? How do you counter the "whatever, I don't care"?

• 5:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:49Codie Sanchez?

  So say you are a person who still wants to be in the marriage and you're like, "I actually want my person to know that they are interesting to me."

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:57Codie Sanchez?

  What do you do? How do you reengage a failing marriage?

• 6:00Speaker 01

  I don't think it's actually that hard. I think you do the same things you do to screw it up. It's just, you just move it in the other direction. Like, you know, the spiral of like, apathy and disdain for each other is the exact same recipe as the spiral in the other direction of like, reconnecting to each other. And that is, it's these little tiny things that you slightly reframe. You know, it's giving the other person just this little bit of grace. Like, I genuinely think that the easiest thing we can do is just start treating our partner with love and attention and connection. And I think it's a 100% return on your investment because either you're going to reverse the spiral.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  So you're gonna give your partner more grace, more attention, more praise, more love, more affection, than maybe you owe them, if we owe each other anything. And either that's gonna inspire them to start doing the same and feeling good about you, this chicken or the egg thing, or you're gonna have done this for a while and you're not gonna get any return on an investment. And isn't it better to know? Isn't it better to know, like, wow, maybe this thing is really broken between us? And happily ever after might mean happily ever after separately. Like, I'm a believer in people splitting up when that's the right move for them. But I genuinely think that all you have to really do to reverse that spiral is just, because what does it take?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Like, what does it take to just, in the middle of the day, send your girlfriend, wife, a text that says, "You know, I had such fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. 30 seconds costs nothing." What is it to? It's the equivalent of sending flowers. Like, it's the equivalent, like, to say, "Like, I was just thinking of you and I just wanted you to know." Like, "Oh, I walked past this person and they were wearing the perfume you used to wear when we first went out and for a second, I almost fell down." What a like, beautiful thing to say. Who wouldn't wanna hear that? Who wouldn't want? And again, costs nothing, takes almost no time. And the ROI on that, I think, can be really, really profound. And you know, if you don't mind me saying, because you gave yourself as an example, like, having hung out with you and Chris together as a couple,

• 8:13Speaker 01

  you know, we went out to dinner. I remember thinking like, "Oh, what's this gonna be like?" Because like, you and I have such big personalities. And I was like, "Oh, my God, this is gonna be, this is like, everybody wants to be Beyonce, nobody wants to be Destiny's Child here. This is gonna be crazy." And I thought, "But you know, Chris is so interesting and he's so accomplished and there's such a hell of a resume there." And I thought, like, "What's this gonna look like? Is it gonna be like a competition? Like, who's gonna..." And he was so, he reminded me of a lot of my really lethal jujitsu buddies who are just so chill and just sort of like, very, you and I were like, "Da-da-da-da-da." And he was like, you know, and even when I tried to make him the center of attention, like, I wanted to, I was genuinely curious, like, "Oh, tell me about the Naval Academy. Tell me about this." He was very quick to like, bounce it back to you

• 8:58Speaker 01

  and there was such a sense between, and again, it's like an energy thing, not to sound too woo-woo about it, but it really was like, you guys clearly like each other.

• 9:08Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Speaker 01

  Like, you don't just love each other. It's lovely that you love each other, that's great. But like, you like each other. Like, you were sitting there, kind of listening to each other's stories, laughing at each other's jokes. And there wasn't this sense at all of like, taking the piss out of each other in a way that was in any way but like, loving and sweet and affectionate. Like, no one would ever look and go, "Oh, these two, like, do you not even like each other?" Like, there's such a sense of camaraderie and connection. When you're with people that have that rhythm the right way, you realize it's just those little tiny things. And we all want, I know, we all want like, the big thing, the panacea, the cure, the like, single thing. I don't think it's like that. I think it's just these little choices we make every day.

• 9:51Speaker 01

  But again, like we have all these gadgets, these watches that bang and tell us when to drink water and these gadgets in our pocket that tell us, you know, when to move or when. We can't just set a reminder. Somebody can't just make an app that just says, hey, three times a day, here's the random times to text your person and tell them that you're thinking of them or send them a picture, send them a nude. I don't know, like do something, like do something for them to let them know, I see you, I like you, you're still my person, you know, you're still my favorite person. You know, that's the thing I've been on a lot about lately is just the idea that this is your favorite person. Like this is a eight billion people in the world and this one, you picked this one and they picked you.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  Like what a, what a beautiful thing to have found. So why wouldn't you value it and treat it with a little bit of everyday maintenance?

• 10:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you know, and it's interesting because you've also talked before and it was profound to me. And I can't remember if we actually did it live or when we were behind the scenes, but we all have that friend or group of friends that when we're with them as a couple, they are taking the piss out of each other all the time. They're going back and forth. And for some reason, they kind of think it's cool. Like, you know, and they're like, oh, you know, da, da, da, I got him or I got her or whatever. And they almost, it's performative. They want you to like,

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Well, it's like rewarded in the zeitgeist too.

• 11:09Codie Sanchez?

  Right. So I guess what is the key indicator that like that's you? How, how do you see, how do you know that somebody is really unhappy in their marriage by the way they communicate in front of others? And what's a sign you're doing it in your marriage? You might be like, you might actually be killing your marriage by the way you talk to your spouse in front of other people.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  I guess the thing that makes me different than like the Gottmans or Esther Perow or any of the myriad of mental health professionals who have excellent advice to give everybody about relationships, including me. Like I'm actually really, I'm a lawyer. So all I care about is evidence. Like I don't care what you know, what can you prove? Like, how am I going to prove it? I love my kid. That's nice. What's the evidence to support that? Okay. I'm going to show that you go to every parent teacher conference. I'm going to show that you gave up this work opportunity that was really lucrative for you because you wanted to be home because your kid had a school thing. Like that's evidence. That's all I'm caught up in is what's the evidence? Okay. I love you. Cool. Love's a feeling and love's a verb. So what's the proof? Give me the evidence. What's the evidence that you love this person? Cause here's what I'll tell you.

• 12:14Speaker 01

  I'm looking at the ingredients I have at trial that I'm going to put up on the witness stand. And as far as I can tell, like if I cross-examined you about your love, I think I could take you apart because if you're saying you love this person, isn't it a fact that when this person came home last week and said X, Y, and Z, that you started, you know, making them feel small for the fact that they had that problem instead of just listening attentively? Isn't it a fact, sir, that you, you know, like, so if I, if I cross-examined you about your relationship, could you stand up to that? Could you acknowledge where you got it wrong and where you maybe got it right? And by the way, why wouldn't we as an exercise together? If we're in a relationship, why wouldn't we once a week?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved. Tell me three things I did this week that I, I could have done better. Tell me three things I did this week that turns you on. Like I would say something, I, that latter one, you would be surprised at the answer. Like so many of those questions, like you'd be surprised at the answer. I, I've spent so much time trying to get eight pack abs. And I remember once in a relationship saying, you know, what's like something I do that like turns you on? And her going, oh, you know, when, when the dogs come in from the rain and you're like toweling them off.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? She's like, I don't know. The way they look at you and you look at them and like your, are your tattooed strong arms are like towel. I don't know. It's just super hot. And I'm like, what? I would never have guessed that. Like, that's the last thing on the list.

• 13:51Codie Sanchez?

  The dogs are wet every day.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Oh my God. Yeah. Just from then on, I'm pouring water on them. But the truth is like, if you really, sometimes the things that we are doing that make our partner feel loved are so silly and so small. There that you know that I take two sugars and not three. There that you, you know, always make sure that, you know, I get this or that you, you asked how my mom was doing last week when you, you know, after I talked to her. Like, what did that do? It made me feel loved. Like, and what's the goal? The goal is to like, for you, the goal is to make Chris feel loved. Chris's goal should be to make you feel loved. Cause the goal of this game

• 14:33Speaker 01

  that there is no finish line for, and that none of us can win because every marriage ends in death or divorce. The goal should be that when one of us dies, to look at the other and be able to say, hey, this person helped me become the most authentic version of who I am. And they're still my favorite person in the world. Like, and what better goal than that? Like my, my son got married a few months ago and I just remember thinking like, that's just the goal. Like the goal is like to get to the finish of this thing, because everything ends. And just be able to say, yeah, you helped me become me, authentically me. And I, and I'm still, you're still my favorite person.

• 15:13Codie Sanchez?

  Such an interesting point because today I feel like there's so many complications with social media. Like, and, and we feel like we have to do all of these things.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  All the things.

• 15:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Because we see on social media, everybody else being this perfect partner. And so I'm curious, like, is it actually better for us to post more or less about our relationship on social media? Is there a negative correlation between that and staying together?

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Like at its best, the connection of social media, the mass audience of social media makes all of us feel a little less alone.

• 15:48Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 15:49Speaker 01

  Even when we're actually alone, it makes us feel a little less alone. Like, oh, I'm not the only one experiencing that. The problem with it is so much of it is this performative self. And everyone is putting up their greatest hits and we're all living our gag reel. And by the way, when are you on your phone? It's not when you're having like some wonderful peak moment. It's when you're like sitting on the couch, feeling blah, or on the toilet or whatever. And you're, it's not like in a great moment. So you're watching everyone's greatest moments while you're kind of in one of your less great moments. And I think it's natural for us to feel smaller than. I think comparison's always been the thief of joy and it continues to be. But I also think that, you know, there is a way that we could be using social media to, to share the best parts of our partner.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  The problem is, is how people then perceive it. Like, are you flexing? Are you performing? Like happy people are just busy being happy. They're not out there trying to convince everybody that they're happy. Like who's that for? Like, I can't tell you how many people, you know, even celebrity clients of mine, that, you know, they're in my office actively negotiating a settlement of their divorce. And meanwhile, they're like walking down the red carpet, holding hands. They're doing interviews, hashtag blessed, like, you know, best husband ever. And meanwhile, they've been separated for the last eight months and they're like, oh, he's on set. And it's like, no, he's, he's in an apartment with a different girlfriend in Malibu. Like it's, it's the reality versus the curated performative self.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  But it's unfortunate because it, you know, it's a very human thing to just watch what are other people doing? And, you know, people spend a lot of time trying to teach me the quadratic formula. Like that was going to be important. Like I needed to know how to divide fractions. Like they spent a lot, there were some nuns in Catholic school that thought this was essential, that I know this, like never used it in my whole life. But so many things about relationship, like someone could have taught me. They could have given me a manual. Like this is too important to go unmanuled. Like there should be a manual. There should be some basic thing about here's the care and feeding

• 17:58Speaker 01

  of connecting to another person in really basic ways. And I don't think that it's actually that hard. I think we just have to be humble enough to say, this isn't as easy as it looks. And otherwise what we do is we learn the way, like, I think one of the reasons there's this synergy between our work and our writing is you're very kind of counterintuitive in some of your thinking. Like, okay, if everyone's doing this, maybe look at this. Like, and the more that people are trying to like say, oh, this is the wrong way. Like maybe there's a contrarian way of viewing this. I think in relationships, it's, it's really the same thing. Like we, we really could just,

• 18:43Speaker 01

  it could be pretty simple and boring, the answer. Like it may be boring is the answer. The answer is these little tiny habits of mine, these little tiny daily practices, these little weekly or so check-ins. It's not sexy. There's no course to take. There's no book to buy necessarily. I could fit it on an index card, but it's kind of simple. And we could have taught it to people at a younger age.

• 19:05Codie Sanchez?

  Is that why you say that, you know, affairs or breakups don't happen fast? They happen slowly?

• 19:12Speaker 01

  Well, they happen, I think they happen like bankruptcies happen very slowly and then all at once. Like, I think it's very gradual. Like falling feels like flying for a little while. You know, and then you hit the ground. And I think that there's this, this gradual feeling of like, we fall in love so fast, we connect so fast. It's a ball of hormones. It's all kinds of exciting. And then. You know, again, I don't blame people for this. Like, I think you, you know, there's so much to do mentally. Like, the mental load is a real thing. Like, there's so much going on and you, for some period of time in your life, like, finding your person is the thing. Like, there's so much you do, like, so much you wear, so much you think. Where, how can I find my person?

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And then you find them and you're like, oh, thank God. Like, one less thing. Like, now I can focus on the other stuff, because there's so much other stuff. And now, by the way, I can probably do that better, because I got, like, somebody there. That's great, you know? But then, you kind of forget that I wanted this so bad. It was so important, you know? And it's easy to just let those other things come fully into focus. I mean, a baby is a great example of that. They require tremendous amounts of attention. They require tremendous amounts of emotional and physical bandwidth. And there is a part of you that kind of can forget. You know why this baby's here? Because the two of us loved each other enough to rub our parts against each other. Like, that's how this happened.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  So, like, why not try to keep in our line of sight? Like, hey, you know, our love built this person. Like, and, and let's give each other the gift of, like, paying attention. Because, again, I, I think it's all about just paying attention. I understand why our attention gets pulled to other things. I don't fault anybody for that. It's so human. Like, we, we need, we need to attend to other things. But very quickly, we forget how important this was and is. And I think if we don't pay attention to it, it very easily falls apart.

• 21:15Codie Sanchez?

  Quick aside. Everything James talks about comes back to one thing. Relationships that last aren't the ones built on wishful thinking. They're the ones where people actually do the work and get clear on the terms before things get hard. Same goes for a business. Hope won't grow a company. At some point, building takes real resources. So, let me tell you about a new business lending product from SoFi. SoFi has a small business loan lending platform that is built for growth. You can apply without affecting your credit score. And if approved, get funding as soon as 24 hours later. Here's the part I really like, though. The pricing is clear and upfront, so you'll see your terms before you accept. No surprises, no penalties for paying your loan off early. It's built for solopreneurs and small businesses. If you're looking for capital to buy, build, or grow, head to sofi.com/Cody or click the link in the show notes. Your business moves fast, your financing should too.

• 22:00Codie Sanchez?

  SoFi small business loans are originated by SoFi Bank, N.A. Subject to eligibility and approval. Terms and conditions apply. This is a paid SoFi partnership. How often is having a kid actually one of the impetuses for divorce?

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I think it's an impetus for the disconnection that is the impetus for divorce. I, and I think for very valid reasons, which is, a baby, A, requires a tremendous amount of your time and attention. You, you experience a love for this creature that is nothing like you've had before, and it's totally dependent on you. I mean, we emerge half-formed and hope whoever meets us on the other side is gonna, like, take care of us. And it's a beautiful, amazing thing. But for a little while, it's kind of exhausting and terrifying and stressful, and none of us really know exactly what we're doing, and we feel like we're doing it wrong for sure. Because whatever you do, somebody on the internet's gonna tell you, you should have done it differently and better, and you're doing it wrong, and the baby's gonna come out wrong as a result of it.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  It's all your fault. And it all feels like it's all on the line all the time. And this other person who wants you to be happy and loved and feel good is as terrified and frustrated as you are and sleep deprived as you are. And it's like, there's so much, and both of your, everything's kind of off. And for a woman in the relationship, like, your body feels out of control. And like, you, you know, you get out of the hospital, you're like, four months pregnant. Like, it's just not the same. And again, for the guy, it's like, hey, you know, like, I can't wait to have my wife back. And wait, what do you mean, the boobs aren't for me right now? Who are they for? Like, I just met this kid. I don't like him that much to trade those. Like, that doesn't seem fair. But again, and by the way, and I think it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to be like, what, now I gotta tend to you too? Like, can I handle, can I just handle this for a minute?

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Like, can everybody leave my boobs alone for a minute? I get it. But the truth is, like, again, like, if we could just identify it first. Like, instead of getting caught up in what do we owe each other? Like, I don't owe you this, and you don't owe me. You're right, you don't. You don't owe anybody anything in that sense. Like, but, don't you want to be connected to each other? Like, don't you want your partner to feel loved and seen? Like, you don't want, no one meant to be in my office. I mean, one of the reasons why I, I find my profession so humbling and fascinating is that, like, we're just all so full of shit so much of the time. Everything we do, we're like, well, I meant to do that. It was a learning experience. You can't pretend you meant to get divorced.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  You didn't. You can say, hey, it's good, it's the right thing. Okay, you can say that. But when you were walking down the aisle, you were not like, yeah, this is gonna go down in flames. Like, you believed that this was gonna work out. And then it didn't. And now what? You know, and now what? Like, I think you can own that. I think you can be like, yeah, the barn's burned down and now I can see the moon. Like, there's something beautiful to be found in here. There's an opportunity for reinvention to be found here, to learn about what you do wrong in relationship and what you do right, and how to do it better next time. And I think that can be an amazing thing. But you don't have to wait to get divorced to do that. Like, you, you can do that right now. Like, you don't have to wait.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Like, when people have a crisis in their marriage, someone's parent is ill or dies, something horrible happens, there's this shared sense of, oh, my God, like, I gotta take care of this person. Are they okay? Like, my partner is, like, going down. Like, I need, they need me. You don't have to wait. The thing, pretend the thing happened. Like, every single day, like, you don't have to wait till January 1st to change your life. You can change your life on a Tuesday in the middle of August. Doesn't matter. Like, and I think that's the thing we're, we're just lost the plot of, is we're, we're, again, like, babies are amazing, and they're exhausting, and they can be both things.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Spouses are amazing and exhausting, you know? And they're the greatest strength for you, and they're also kind of a drain sometimes. Like, things don't, there's a reason why little kids really like professional wrestling. Because it's like, really clear who the good guy is and really clear who the bad guy is. You know, and like, we love that. We love a world where it's just good guys and bad guys, and that's it. And you know who the bad guy is, because they're dressed a certain way, and the certain music comes on when they come out. You know who the good guy is, because they're dressed a certain way, and this music comes on. That's not how it works. Like, the line of good and evil runs through the human heart, and none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. Like, we all contain foolishness and selfishness and weakness in us.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And so, we all contain beauty and love and connection in us. And I think that if love is anything, it's the invitation to, like, try to help your partner every day see the best parts of themselves, because you try to keep that in your own line of sight.

• 26:52Codie Sanchez?

  What do you think that women get wrong about what men want in a marriage or a relationship?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  I've been thinking a lot about this in my own life, because I'm 53. And I think it took me to, like, 52 or 53, to learn that when a woman says to me, "Do you know how hard it is to be a woman?", that they're not saying, "And it's easy to be a man." Like, I, I don't know why, in my heart, and in many people's hearts, when I say to you, "Do you know how hard it is to be a man sometimes?", why your first reaction is to go, "I'm sorry, do your hormones fluctuate wildly every 28 days? Do you have to fit your feet in heels?

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Do people, when you're working, tell you you should be at home? And when you're home, tell you you should be working? Like, really? Because it's so easy being, wow. What if I just said, you know, "It's really hard to be a man sometimes"? You went, "Really? Tell me about that. How? Because I've never been a man. I don't know. I have a bunch of them in my life that I care about. So, I'd really like to know. Like, what's that like? Tell me what, tell me what's hard about it. You know? And, and I only learned that, like, in the last couple of years, that, like, stop hearing it that way and start hearing it as, no, I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I can try to imagine when you, when you describe it to me, like, do you know what it's like to be objectified? Do you know what it's like to feel like you don't know if someone's taking you seriously? Do you know what it's like?

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I, I don't know exactly what that's like. I've had examples in my life of circumstances where that happened, so I can, I can feel some empathy when you describe it to me. But the first step is for me not to hear it defensively.

• 28:39Codie Sanchez?

  So true.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  And I think in relationship, that's a big, big piece of this. One of the things that women right now get really, really wrong, because the culture is jamming it down their throats, is that anytime a man says anything about what's difficult for him, that it turns into a pissing match between the two of them of, do you know how hard I have it instead of you? And there's, it's just so dismissive and unnecessary. Like, we all have things we're grappling with, and if we love each other, we can hear that without it being defensive. I also think one of the mistakes I see a lot of women make in relationship

• 29:21Speaker 01

  is mistaking, like, saying, "Well, you should have talked to me about that", but not creating conditions where a person can feel safe talking about something. Like, telling a woman something she doesn't want to hear is not something men are good at. We don't like it. It's not fun. Like, when you guys are, there's nothing more frightening to a heterosexual man than the sound of a woman you're dating saying, "What's wrong? Nothing." "No, no, it's definitely something." Like, "What's the something?" "No, nothing, it's fine." "Oh, my God, like, it's definitely bad. Like, what, what did I do? What did I, is something going, is it me? Did something?" I, I think creating conditions where we can have conversations with each other

• 30:06Speaker 01

  about, like, what's really going on here, and where we can disappoint each other a little. Like, where I can, I can tell you something you don't want to hear. Like, I can't tell you how many women come in and their husband's cheating on them, and they say, like, well, you know, it's, he's humiliated me. Like, if he just, and, and, and I, I'll read the papers that they filed, and I'm like, they hadn't had sex in seven years. And she's like, well, you know, he never told me that, and you're like, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait. Like- You're you're telling me if he had sat you down and said, listen, I feel like we're really physically disconnected and I feel like my eye is starting to wander and I don't want to go down that road. But like, we really need to reconnect somehow, that that your response would have been, well, thank you for sharing that with me. It's hard for me to hear that, but I really appreciate that you're.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  No, the answer would have been, well, what the fuck do you want from me? Like, you're never home. And then when you get home, you're all kinds of stressed and I'm supposed to just like show up in a negligee in those circumstances. Come on, like it turns into this defensive thing. And again, men are partly to blame for that. Because when you go like, well, how come we're not having sex anymore? Okay, we're off to a bad start. Like, that's going to bring out nothing but defensiveness. Whereas if you said, you know, I drove past that restaurant that we went to. Remember that weekend when we first were dating and I drove, I drove past it and all I could think about was how, remember after that? We went back to my apartment and we like, didn't leave the bed for like a day and a half. That was like the best, man. Like, I just, I think about that day sometime. Now we're in, now we're in, I'm like priming the pump now. Because now you're like, okay, come with me, remember?

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Come with me, remember how fun that was? Remember when we were so connected to each other? Remember how close we felt to each other? And use that as the entry point to be like, you know, we should make time for that. Like, I'm sorry if I don't make time for that. Like, I love feeling that connected to you. Now, we're having the same conversation. Why, why haven't we been as physically connected? But instead of it being a criticism, it's about come with me to this place where we used to be together. And and somehow we're not there anymore. And that's your fault and my fault and everybody's fault and nobody's fault. I don't care. I don't care whose fault it is. I just want to be there with you. I still think you're wonderful.

• 32:12Codie Sanchez?

  Why is that the natural state for relationships where we get so defensive? With like our partner in a way that almost I don't think we get defensive when anybody else gives us feedback?

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Well, I think we feel like safe venting with our partner. Cause it's like, no, you're here, you're stuck with me. There's a sense of that, like marriage. You know, marriage is like a moat around a relationship. Like, a lot of people are like, I'm gonna boot this moat and then it'll, we'll have this ring and that means we'll be together forever. It's like, no, it doesn't. Like, that's, you know, I have a friend, Mark Delaney, who's a psychedelic facilitator. And he often says to me, and always makes me laugh, he's like, relax, nothing's under control.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Like, relax, nothing's under control. Like, and it's true. Like, I try to tell myself that all the time. I'm like, relax, nothing's under control. Like, there's, because marriage is a symbol. That's all it is, is a symbol. We've decided we're gonna create this legal connection or spiritual connection that's gonna symbolize this way of keeping the relationship safe. It's an illusion. It's not real. It's still worth, symbols are worth something. Like, I think we live in a world of symbols. Like, I'm, I'm wearing one. Like, I, I could go to court and do a really good job cross-examining somebody in shorts and a T-shirt. It's just my brain. You don't need the rest of me. Like, the Ferragamo shoes don't do it. Like, it's, but why do I wear this? It's a symbol. I take this seriously.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  It's a symbol of, I, I am wearing this because I want you to know I take this interaction seriously. Well, that's all marriage is, is a symbol. You're just trying to create this symbol of our, but to then think that you've now really dug a successful moat around this thing and it's impervious to the slings and arrows that are coming at the relationship, you're kidding yourself.

• 33:58Codie Sanchez?

  That's so true.

• 33:59Speaker 01

  If anything, it actually makes you maybe drop your defenses. She's like, oh, no, we got the moat. We got this thing around it now, we're good, we're married. No, it's not safe. The illusion that it's got a wall around it and a moat around it will make you forget that it's fragile. Love is not permanently gifted, it's loaned. You know, and and maybe remind yourself regularly that there were eight billion options and you picked this person and they picked you. So why not protect that thing?

• 34:32Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, the symbol's so true. I mean, I do think about why I take, you know, Kim Kardashian so seriously on her show is the outfits. I think it's

• 34:40Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 34:42Codie Sanchez?

  You know?

• 34:42Speaker 01

  You should literally never let me live that down. Every, the minute, you know, the minute that show got renewed, you texted me that day. That day.

• 34:53Codie Sanchez?

  I love it. It's so campy and amazing. And every time the outfit shows like a thong, I just, I put your face on the outfit.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  It's really incredible.

• 35:00Codie Sanchez?

  And I just find such joy.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  I am so glad that it gives you this level of joy. I have to say, I take joy in how much joy it gives you. I really do, because you're torturing me. You're torturing me. I'm in my office not wearing a thong. And like, I'm in my office that's not shaped like a Volvo with windows. Every office in that show is incredible. It's like a German architect's dream. And instead, we're like in these sterile buildings and conference rooms with a bunch of dudes. Yeah, fluorescent lights and a bunch of like short balding dudes.

• 35:34Codie Sanchez?

  No Kardashians.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  And none of us are like, I'm having sex with your clients. Like, well, so am I, you know, like it, it's none of that. Like, that's, I watched that show and I'm like, this job is so exciting. I think I want to be a divorce lawyer when I grow up. Like, I feel like the interns are coming in for the summer now and they're like, why isn't everybody having sex at the conference room table? Like, this is, you guys suck. I thought you were like a cool firm, you know, like.

• 35:58Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, the tattoos, you really were selling it.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  I really was, yeah, I know. They haven't asked me to do a guest spot on that show yet. I can't imagine. And I'd love to do a cameo. I'd love to do a cameo. Whoever out there, Kim, hit me up, I'm in.

• 36:11Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, my God, I would watch it again, just for that.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Just for that.

• 36:15Codie Sanchez?

  You know, I want to go back to men and women again. So you've also said that men and women actually experience cheating differently. What does that mean?

• 36:23Speaker 01

  I mean, again, this is an unfalsifiable premise because it's just based on my observations. But that's, you know, 26 years worth of representing the cheated and the cheated on, you know? So the cheater and the cheated on. So I've seen both sides of that equation.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  What my observation has been is that when there is cheating, first of all, like, we've created a culture where it is totally unacceptable to take someone back after cheating, even though cheating is such a regular thing. Like, it, I mean, adultery as a technology has been around probably like five minutes shorter than monogamy. Like, I feel like there was a caveman somewhere who was like, I think you and I should just be together, just the two of us. And then walked out and saw another person in a loincloth and was like, well, maybe real quick. Like, there had to be, because it's been around, I mean, if you think about it, like, if you believe that God gave us 10 rules, you know, two of them were don't commit adultery. Don't covet your neighbor's wife, don't commit adultery. Thou shalt not kill got one.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Like, you just had to say that once. But like, don't commit adultery. Seriously, don't covet your neighbor's wife, dude. Like, God felt he had to repeat himself on that one. That's, whether you believe that that was like divine providence or not, it'll tell you the problem's been around a while. You know, if it was carved in stone somewhere, it's been around a while, whoever invented it. So we've been dealing with this for a while, but we also do not give people the grace of like, yeah, this person made a mistake. This, like, I, I represent a lot of people that cheated.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  None of them ever woke up and said, you know, I think I'm gonna fuck my whole life up today. I think I'm gonna completely ruin it, damage my partner and their trust in me and their trust in anyone forever. And also probably cause some collateral damage with this other person who I'm gonna have this triangulated relationship with. I think that's gonna be a good use of time today. Like, usually it's just this small progression of kind of poor decisions, things you probably knew you shouldn't do. And again, like, I don't fault people for that. Like, I give people some grace for that. Cause I'll tell you something, like, it's a bad metaphor, but like, if there's potato chips in my house, I'm eating them. Like, I'm eating them. Like, that's why I don't buy potato chips. Cause I can control my food environment better than I can control my brain. I don't trust my brain.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  Like, and I don't trust my stomach. But like, I trust the fact that when I'm in the store, I don't have to buy potato chips. So I don't buy them. Or if I buy them, I go, okay, I'm gonna eat them. Like, you hang out the barber shop long enough to get a haircut. Like, if I'm talking to a bunch of beautiful women on a regular basis, I'm gonna want to have sex with one or more of them. That's how it works. So if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship, don't do it. Don't give yourself that occasion to do that. Like, like, make a point of protecting that and not doing it. The thing that's interesting to me, and I've, I've, I've talked about before and I talk about my book, is the question when people are confronted about adultery. Because the man's first question is, did you have sex with him?

• 39:23Speaker 01

  And the woman's first question is, do you love her?

• 39:27Speaker 01

  And that tells me something about how men and women perceive relationships slightly differently. Now, again, not every man, not every woman, but as a general category. I, I think women, a lot of it is about, is this person now in a higher priority than me? Do you have a deeper connection, affection, desire for, you know, protective instinct toward? Like, are they more important than me? Because there's something about like being so important to someone. And for men, there's this sense of like, this woman is my woman. She's my, you know, I don't want to say property, but she's mine, like she's mine.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  And I don't want anyone else to be able to lay claim to her, to her body. It's just mine. It's just for me, you know? And by the way, a lot of women, I think, would find that very appealing for a man to say like, yeah, like you're mine. Like, I want you to be mine. I don't, like, I've had lots of problems in relationships because I'm not a very jealous person. And more than once, a woman has been like, like, don't you care about me? And it's like, of course, I'm just not insecure. Like I, you can be flirtatious with people as long as you come back to me. Like, I don't, you know, as long as we have lines that we're not going to cross. Like, if you want to go out with your girlfriends and dance and flirt and stuff, like, I don't care. Like, I'm not insecure. It doesn't bother me. If the only thing that's keeping you from running off with other men is that you're not proximate to other men, we're in trouble.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Like, I'm a fan of monogamy, a model of monogamy where I have sex with as many people as I want, which is one. Just one, because like when I'm full, I don't want to eat anymore. Like, when I'm satisfied, I'm satisfied. So if you're in a relationship and you're satisfied, great. Like, monogamy for me and, and all this idea of cheating is, is the idea that you're not going to cheat? Because that's the rule we've agreed to? Because that seems really stupid. Like, if Chris came home and he was like, listen, I just want you to know, like, there's a bunch of women I really wanted to have sex with today, but I didn't have sex with any of them. I totally stayed with the rules. Like, what, you want a cookie? Like, okay, like, how am I supposed to feel better about that?

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Like, whereas if it, you'll look at it, if it was, yeah, like, I'm, I'm happy. I got you. What do I want more? I got you. I don't need anything more than that. Like, that's what monogamy is supposed to be. So when does it become no longer our responsibility if we're going to be in a relationship to make sure that our partner feels physically connected to us? I think we owe it to our partner. Like, if you're, I've always said in relationship, like, if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship. If I'm going to trade having sex with lots of women for having sex with you regularly, then that's the deal. Like, that's the economy that we've agreed to. And I think that's very fair, and I'm asking you to do the same thing. So I have, I owe it to you to try to satisfy you.

• 42:24Speaker 01

  You owe it to me to try to satisfy me because we don't have to do this thing. We don't have to have that rule. We can say, okay, we're going to sleep with other people. But if we're going to have this thing, why, why don't we just call out that economy and say, hey, let's make sure that we're protecting these values.

• 42:40Codie Sanchez?

  James has this incredible line about how a good lawyer knows the law and a great lawyer knows the judge. Business works the exact same way. There's like a game underneath the game that the pros play every day and other people don't even realize they're playing it. Actually, my new book, Owner Be Owned, well, this is it right here. Isn't it cute? This is the manual for scaling your business towards more profit and less pain. I spent 15 years inside the biggest companies on Wall Street, watching private equity buy good businesses for pennies and great businesses for billions. You want to know what separates them? Great businesses use these systems. The systems that run businesses so good, the owner can grow alongside the business as opposed to getting owned by it.

• 43:21Codie Sanchez?

  It's the exact operating system I use across the businesses that make up multiple nine figures. The same ones I teach to thousands of owners in our contrarian boardroom, but it costs them tens of thousands of dollars a year. Owner Be Owned is for you, and we are going to do so many giveaways live. You're not going to be able to handle it on September 18th with a free live event. Every attendee is going to get something that I wish I got 10 years ago. It would have made me way more money. So scan the link in the QR or click the description. Let's get back to my conversation with James Sexton. What percentage of divorces have, uh, you know, affairs or non-monogamy?

• 43:58Speaker 01

  I mean, a massive number, a massive, I would, I would be speculating because it's hard to measure those things. I would say close to 70 to 80%. Where there's some, where infidelity played some part in some degree. Like, how many is, I've fallen in love with another person and I'm leaving you? That's a smaller percentage, although still shockingly high. But there's a lot of like, yeah, he cheated and I took him back, or she cheated and I took her back. And then, you know, she still betrayed me in this way or that way. There's a lot of, yeah, they were flirting with this person or like, a lot of times. And again, I, I tend to think that I look at the infidelity, the financial impropriety, the dishonesty,

• 44:40Speaker 01

  all as the, the symptoms of the underlying illness. And the illness is the disconnection.

• 44:46Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, the lack of attention.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  The lack of attention, the lack of connection, the, you know, the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. Like, we lie to our partners all the time, but it's mostly because we're lying to ourselves. Like, we're, we're busy thinking about who we wish we were and not looking at who we actually are, you know? And we're relating to the world and our partner, like, this is who I want to be, not who I actually am, you know? And I, I had a, some years ago, my, one of my sons, my younger son, he's 26 now, but he was in his early twenties at the time. And we were having a very difficult moment in our relationship as father and son.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  And he was, he was venting to me about the things I, I had gotten wrong, like as, you know? And I, I wanted to create space for that. And he was like, you know, you, you're so occupied with work all the time and you were never here for this. And, and I like really listened to what he had to say, you know? And I wanted to hear it, like, I wanted to hear it and absorb it and not be defensive. But about halfway through this sort of venting, I, I said, you know, Bill, who are you comparing me to? Like, are you comparing me to your imaginary perfect father? Because here's what I'll say, you're allowed to do that. But then I'm going to compare you to my imaginary perfect son, and you suck.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Like, he's a black belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. He is so cool. We have so much fun, he and I. He's like finishing law school or med school right now, but he's like not stuck up about it. And he's got the same taste in music as me, and we go to like concerts together sometimes. And like every Father's Day, he like posts some pictures that he and I, and he's like, best dad ever. Like, you suck compared to him. You're like awful compared to him. Like, but, but by the way, I love you like so much, like so much it hurts. It's like looking at the sun, how much I love you. Like, I can't, once I look away, it's like, I, I love you that much. Just you, the way you actually are, not my, as you compare to my imaginary son.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Like, so could we, and I said to him, like, if you don't learn this in our relationship, just learn it. Because if you compare a woman in your life someday, if you compare your wife someday to your imaginary perfect wife, she is going to disappoint the shit out of you. So compare people to real people. Compare, or, or learn how to like meet someone where they're at, because that's how you want to be loved. Like, if you want me to love you for who you are, not who I, as compared to this imaginary perfect ideal, you have to be prepared to give me that same grace. And I think that's the part in relationship, like the algorithm has taken away our proclivity towards doing that. It has in fact encouraged the opposite.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Enragement, engagement, this boys versus girls bullshit that's out there, that everyone has now picked up, is like the greatest grift ever. Pander, pander, pander. All these men being like, guys, let me tell you something. If a woman feels defensive around you, it's because you're the one who's attacking. And all the women are like, yes, he's so right. And like, it's, everybody's just pandering to the algorithm. They want the traction, they want the engagement. Instead of like being honest with the somewhat complex truth, which is that, look, women get it wrong, men get it wrong. There's stuff women are dealing with that men aren't, there's stuff men's dealing with that women aren't, there's stuff we're both dealing with.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  Like, men or woman, you know, like, there's so much going on that, again, like, if we just stopped with this ridiculous combative approach, that love is a zero sum game, like, listen, a world where men are flailing is not a world where women are thriving. And a world where women are flailing is not a world where men are thriving. We are in this together, guys. This is a knife fight in a closet. Like, do you think that just stabbing is the answer? I promise you, it's not. Are you happy? Do you feel better? Does your friends seem happier in their relationships? Or does everyone seem like they're just spiraling down into, yeah, we all just hate the other side? The boys versus girls, like, instead of just like acknowledging how?

• 49:00Speaker 01

  How different some things are for us, but how much we love each other, sometimes inexplicably for the dumbest things, you know, like, and it's just lovely to be loved like that and to feel that love for another person. Like, I just feel like we, we could do so much better at that.

• 49:18Codie Sanchez?

  Well, it's funny because I remember I was texting you about one of our reels we did. And it was about what do men really want and what do women really want? And the TLDR was like, men want the nudes, women want the flowers. And there was a lot more context and tongue in cheek about it. But people in the comments were crazy. They were like so mad at you. They're like, how dare you say that men love the female body? No man should ever want that because we're gonna, that, that means he's gonna post you on every public profile. And you monster, right? And then, you know, then of course, the other women were like, I hate fucking flowers. We were like, whoa, like, everybody calm down for a second.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  But I really do think a lot of people wake up just looking to get offended now. And they get right on there like, looking to get offended. And I get it, like, I, I get it, man. I post in ghosts, like, I, I try not to engage it. Cause when I do engage it, like, I try to engage it the way I would engage cross examination, which is like, it's, it's, you know, you're gonna argue with me? I get paid a thousand dollars an hour to argue. Like, it's a bad fucking idea. Like, well, first of all, I won't do it for free. Like, it's not fair to the paying customers. Like, so I'm not, I used to say to my sons when they were teenagers, like, I'm sorry, I can't argue with you for free. Like, that's not cool. Like, people pay me a lot of money to argue for them. I can't do it for you for free. That's not okay. Like, I'll get you a gift certificate for Christmas. I'll argue with you for two hours. Like, there you go. You can space it out in six minute increments if you want to.

• 50:37Codie Sanchez?

  Dude, this is a new business line for you. I would a thousand percent participate in this.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  You would want to buy an argument with me?

• 50:42Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, because I just would be like, ah, God, I didn't even see that left hook coming. No.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  It's not fun. But, but the truth of all of this is, we, we, we're really, again, it goes back to that other thing I said. When I say, you know, a lot of men really like nudes, guys, it's true. Like, you don't have to like it. It doesn't have to be true for your relationship, okay? But it's true. Generally, it's true. Like, so it's okay to just say that. Like, I didn't say, did you know all men like nudes and you owe them nudes? Did you know that? Like, if I said that, it's a perfectly reasonable response to be like, you have your head up your ass, Jim. I made a, a totally honest comment that no reasonable person would argue against. And I get pilloried for it and it's totally fine.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  I don't really care. Cause the truth is, is if you want to conduct the orchestra, you gotta turn your back on the audience. Like, I don't care. The, the reason people, when people come up to me on the street and say, oh my God, I really love your work. And it's always the same thing they say. You're like so blunt, you just say it like it is, you just, and I'm like, you know, because I'm just, I don't care. Like, I think it's totally okay. And by the way, I don't mean that in the like, well, I don't care, kind of way that people like intentionally like, no, I really don't. Like, I really, like, my beliefs don't require you to believe them. It's okay, I have a very defined sense of self. And by the way, I concede the possibility I might be wrong. There've been times where I've had it, you can't talk for as many hours as I do on interviews and not get some things wrong or have a blind spot.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  I had a woman the other day send me a message on Instagram about like, here, I think you got this take wrong. And I wrote her back and I was like, oh, you know, I, I actually think this. And she wrote back and we ended up having like a really interesting dialogue. And I thought to myself, this is lovely. Like, it's lovely because she didn't start with, you're obviously a misogynist scumbag. Like, it was like, okay, that, wow. Like, why don't you share with me why you think something differently? And then I'll share with you where I was coming from and maybe we'll find some commonality together.

• 52:43Codie Sanchez?

  It's so funny. I always think of the, I forget who the comic is, but he famously talks about how, he's like, you know what the internet's comment section is like? You go to the park, there's a, uh, there's a like guitar lesson sheet up on the wall. On the bottom are like, you know, your name, number, guitar lessons. You call if you want a guitar lesson. And you just randomly pick it up, you dial the number, the other person answers and you go, I don't want fucking guitar lessons. And you're like, okay, don't call the number. Go anywhere else.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  I'll even take it a step further. It's like you call and go, why you hate tubas? And say, what, what did I say about tubas? No, I mean, all, because all, the only thing people need to learn is how to play guitar? Like, really? Really? Drums don't matter? Percussion's useless? Like, wait, I didn't, I literally said none of that. Like, I actually don't even feel that way. Like, I, it's better when there's a drummer with, but what, how, why am I defending myself right now? Like, what is this conversation? Who are you, by the way? Like, who are you? I don't know you. You don't know me. Why do you hate me? But again, like that, that's got nothing to do with me.

• 53:50Codie Sanchez?

  No.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  Like, I'm, I don't know who hurt you if the nudes comment upset you that much. I'm sorry they did. Like, they shouldn't have. Like, as a human being, like, I, they should, that's awful. Whatever must have happened to you that made you feel that way.

• 54:05Codie Sanchez?

  Also, I love flowers, so.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Flowers are lovely and I love nudes. I love nudes or flowers. Ideally, flowers with nudes. Like, what a combo. It's like pizza. When it's good, it's great. And when it's bad, it's still pretty good.

• 54:16Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know. I feel like, I asked Chris the other day, I was like, seriously? I find such joy when I look at these flowers and I walk by them. I don't know what it is. I find massive joy looking at this flower. I go, what do you feel? He's like, not a damn thing. I feel nothing inside looking at this flower. And I said, do you think that's normal? He's like, this is, I think this is quite normal.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think there's something really beautiful about that, though.

• 54:36Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Because I think, again, I, I don't want to be in a relationship with me. Like, I, I like polarity. Like, I like something different than me. Like, I think that the softness and the hardness of us, I think the, the fact that like, that there's just a lid for every pot, like, there's something different. And I, I think there's something so beautiful about that. Like, I, I can't learn everything I need to know about myself from myself.

• 55:03Codie Sanchez?

  No.

• 55:03Speaker 01

  Like, I need, I need someone different than me who's gonna help me see things differently and who's gonna see things themselves differently that makes me, like, there's something so amazing about you saying like, isn't that beautiful to you? And me going, no, I don't see it. You know? Like, but doesn't another person's excitement excite you?

• 55:21Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, for sure.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Like, I don't, like, I'm a New Yorker. I've been a New Yorker a long time. I live in Manhattan. I don't watch basketball. But God, everybody was so excited about the Knicks. How could you not be? Like, New York comes together, but usually we come together because of tragedies. Usually it's like nine 11 or Katrina or COVID. And like, this was, like, everyone, the Wall Street executive and the bodega guy are both standing outside the bar, watching the thing on the screen and cheering at the same time. And it was like, I was so excited about everyone's excitement. Like, it, like, I've never played golf in my life, but I have friends who play golf. And when they talk to me about golf, they talk to me about it like they were talking about a lover.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  You know, that they're just, it's like when Chris and I went off at our dinner about Brazilian jiu jitsu and you just sat there for like a couple of minutes, just watching us turn into two little teenage boys, like, all excited about, well, I do a bow and arrow choke, I put my arm under a knee. Oh, yeah, well, at least I find with the gi, it's a lot, you know? And you're just sitting there watching the two of us. And, and I remember the look on your face was one of like, oh my God, you guys are so cute. Like, you're so excited right now about like your little ground karate.

• 56:31Codie Sanchez?

  Do men like to be called cute?

• 56:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think we, I don't know if we like to be called cute, but I think behind closed doors, knowing that like a woman who loves us thinks we're cute.

• 56:40Codie Sanchez?

  Things for cute is allowed.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, I don't know if I said to you like, oh, Cody's so cute. You'd be like, excuse me? It's kind of condescending. But if you heard like Jim was like, oh my God, you are adorable. You would be like, okay, like, I don't mind being adorable, like.

• 56:52Codie Sanchez?

  Well, it's interesting because like, I remember, uh, reading somewhere that you were trained in persuasion or that was one of your.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, my master's degree is in, in mass persuasion.

• 57:03Codie Sanchez?

  And persuasion and, and negotiation, which is fascinating because it seems like a lot of communication. And, well, marriage, according to you, a lot of it is about disconnection, bad communication, lack of attention. And then it seems like there's such difference in the way we communicate. You could say, oh, Jimmy's cute. Or you could say, Jim, when he is so excited talking about jiu jitsu and how tough he is, it's so cute, isn't it? And those two things actually mean something very, very different.

• 57:31Speaker 01

  The energy of that is so different. The energy, and you know it as you're, as it's coming out of your mouth. Like, the energy of it is so different. And I think that, I, I think what you're really on to, and I think it's because you, you, you do have background in sales as well. I think in sales, we know that like, it's not the steak, it's the sizzle.

• 57:49Codie Sanchez?

  That's true.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  And that's what people want. And, and I think it's, it's really the, the way you parse it. You know, I, I always tell my clients that the way you ask the question very often dictates the answer. And, and the example that I always give is, there's a joke about, you know, these two monks and they're standing around together, talking about praying and smoking at the same time. And they're having a disagreement about that. And so they both agree they're gonna write the pope and they write the pope. Couple of weeks goes by and they come back and they say, well, turns out I was right. And the other guy says, what do you mean? Turns out I was right. He goes, well, wait a minute, what did you do? He goes, I wrote the pope and I said, is it okay to smoke while you're praying? And he was like, no, when you're praying, you should be paying attention to what you're doing. And the other guy says, well, I wrote him and said, is it okay to pray while I'm smoking?

• 58:34Speaker 01

  And he was like, yeah, you should pray as often as you can. Like, if you pray whenever you want. Like, so how you ask the question dictates the answer. And so I, I think when you think about communicating with your partner, you know, last time we talked, I, I, I gave the example, which I think again, got clipped and I got yelled at for. It is, I gave the example of shaving and I talked about how when I dated a woman who, you know, had sensitive skin and how she would be like, oh my God, your face is so scratchy. And how it made me feel defensive and stupid and self-conscious and kind of irritated that like, oh, great. Now I gotta shave every weekend as well as every weekday. And then the next relationship I had, she had the same issue, but she just did the like, oh my God, you're so sexy when you're clean shaven. You're like Don Draper in Mad Men, you know?

• 59:19Speaker 01

  I would shave three times a day. But it was the same thing. She just parsed it in a way of like, here's what I love about you. Here's this thing that I find so sexy about you.

• 59:30Codie Sanchez?

  So what is the framework there? So like, let's say you wanna, you're in the courtroom, you're trying to get somebody to do what you want them to do. Is this priming? Like, what are the things you need to do?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  The best cross-examination, like, people watch Law and Order and movies like A Few Good Men, and they think that cross-examination is like, isn't it true that you're a terrible husband? And they're like, it's true, you're right. I got, you know, like, I did it. I ordered the code red. Like, this is like a Perry Mason moment. It's not what good cross-examination looks like. Good cross-examination at the highest level is getting a person to commit to a set of principles that they think supports their argument, and then snapping their neck with that. So you get them to commit to, now, sir, one of the reasons why you want custody of your son is that it's important for you to be there for him. Isn't that right?

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yes. In fact, you don't just want to be there on the weekends, you want to be there during the week because the heavy lifting of parenting is a really important part, isn't it? Yes. And in fact, if somebody just wants to do the fun part of parenting, they really have no business claiming that they're a real parent. Isn't that right? Now, what can you say but yes? Now, sir, isn't it a fact that you missed the last six parent-teacher conferences for your child? Like, isn't it a fact, sir, that on Wednesday nights, you participate in this basketball league instead of going to your son's? Now, again, I had you commit to principles, principles you thought were supportive of your argument. And by the way, if you disagreed with them, I can weaponize that against you too. So, again, what is a good cross-examination?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  It's getting, it's just like in relationship. What, commit to the principle? Isn't it a fact that I'm an important person in your life? Yes. Isn't it a fact that I'm as important as your golf game? Yes. And yet, sir, isn't it true that the last-

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  The action's on the court, and as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting fans closer to the game with a chance to win courtside seats, merch, and more. Visit michelobultra.com/courtside to enter. Michelob Ultra Courtside, 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to US residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026, and ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

• 1:01:50Speaker 01

  Last three weekends, you spent more time playing golf than talking to me, you know? Like, isn't it, isn't it a fact that I am more important to you than Instagram? Well, yes. Okay. So then how much of your bandwidth on your phone was spent on Instagram versus messaging or talking to me? Like, again, evidence, evidence, evidence. Like, it doesn't matter what I know, it matters what I can prove. If you cross-examined your relationship, yourself about your relationship, what principles would I commit you to? And then how would I snap your neck?

• 1:02:24Codie Sanchez?

  How do you counter that leading line of questioning with the one-word responses? It's so good. Like, what if you don't want to answer in one-word responses?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Cross-examination, it's not a fair fight. They have to.

• 1:02:38Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  I've moved to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive.

• 1:02:41Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, man.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  Because people all the time go, well, I, well, yes, but I wanted to do that. Move to strike the portion in the answer that was non-responsive. Like, you just keep-

• 1:02:48Codie Sanchez?

  Can I use that in an argument?

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  Yes or no? Isn't it a fact that you, blah, blah, blah? And I can then make you look foolish and evasive. It, you know, isn't it a fact, ma'am, that you went to the pool that day? Well, yes, but I did, blah, blah, blah. So, yes? Yes. Thank you. Now, I'm gonna ask you a number of questions that are gonna be yes or no questions. If you could answer them accordingly, you know, like, and you just pin the person down. Now, the thing that good lawyers do is I am as interested in the other side's case against my client as I am in my case against their client. So I'm gonna do what I jokingly in my office call the eight-mile strategy, based on the Eminem movie Eight Mile, where at the end, you know, he wins the rap battle

• 1:03:33Speaker 01

  by basically getting up and saying all the terrible things about himself that the other person's about to say. And then he hands the guy the mic and says, tell the people something they don't know about me. And the guy's just standing there like, ah, because he's got nothing. He just, he shot himself with all the ammo that the other guy was gonna hit him with. I do that in court all the time. I say to my clients all the time, we're gonna do the eight-mile strategy, which is every single thing they're gonna hit you on cross-examination with, I'm gonna hit you with first. I'm gonna say, I show you what's been marked for identification as plaintiff's exhibit A. Do you recognize this? Yeah. What is it? This is a text message. Who's it from? It's from me. Who's it to? To the defendant, my wife. Uh huh. Could you read it out loud for the court?

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  I'd rather not. Go ahead and do it anyway.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  I can't fucking stand you and I wish you would die. Uh, I, I think- Did you write that to her? Yes. You think that was a good thing to do? No. You think that helped your co-parenting relationship? No.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  What effect do you think that had on her? It probably really upset her. Why did you do it? She had sent me 30 text messages in the last two days where she just cursed me a million times, and finally, I just lost it, and I just sent her this nasty text message. If you had it to do over again, would you send that text message? You know, I'd like to say that I wouldn't, but the truth is, I'm human and I have a breaking point, and she had pushed me to it at that point, and I did something stupid, and I sent something as low as the 50 messages she sent me before. Boom. I just, and I'm watching opposing counsel just crossing out pages of the cross-examination

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  they thought they were gonna light my guy up with, and it's gone. I just took all away. I took all your ammo away. Now what? Now what? What do you have? You got nothing. I got out in front of it. I made a weakness into my client being so candid and honest and about his humanity and about his breaking point. I just turned your prize-winning testimony into my client talking about the 50 mean messages her client sent. You know, so that's, that's what good, like, it's why I love my job, even after 25 years of doing it, is that it's full-contact storytelling. Like, I'm trying to tell a story while you try to stop me from telling that story and tell a different story. And it's the most fun job in the world for that reason.

• 1:06:00Codie Sanchez?

  What do you think the biggest mistake people make is when they're trying to persuade someone of something?

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Well, you know, we were talking about it before we, uh, we sat down, that there's nothing less cool than trying to be cool. And there's nothing worse than a salesman that you know is trying to sell you something. Like, the best salesperson, you just have a problem and they want to help solve it. Like, that's it. Like, and it's the same, the worst persuasion is blatantly obvious persuasion. Like, it really, like, the best advocacy does not look like advocacy. It's just me going, you know, your honor, I don't know. I'm not, listen, this guy walked into my office, hired me. His wife had come in 15 minutes earlier, I'd probably be arguing the opposite of things. But you know what? It seems to me, looking at these two, that, and now, guess what? I'm advocating. It just doesn't sound like it. Like, it just doesn't look like it because it's not so obvious. Like, it's hilarious because when I litigate against, like,

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  you know, like, like, new lawyers, or like, self-represented parties, because now with AI, everybody thinks they're a fucking lawyer. And, and they're sitting there, here too far ahead here, and I'm like, you're trying to sound so much like a lawyer, you don't sound a damn thing like a lawyer right now. Like, but, and look, I get it. Like, when I was a young lawyer, I remember I, this was one of my first big, big cases. Like, I was probably five years into my practice. It was like, first case where there was like, a million-dollar marital estate or more. And I remember my adversary was a very experienced, high-net-worth divorce lawyer. And I was like this, like, I, you know, I'd never done a case this big. And so I'd studied, like, all of their marital assets and how it worked, and did it on. The judge brings us into chambers, and, you know, it's off the record.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  It's just the two lawyers and the judge. And I was like, oh, well, your honor, parties here have a fairly diverse asset profile that's somewhat complex in nature. They have an array of this, and, uh, obviously, that I'm, I'm trying to, like, sound very learned, and I'm looking at my adversary who's clearly had, you know, 100 cases with this kind of thing. And we finish, and I finish my little speech, and she looks over at my adversary, and, and he goes- Yeah, I don't understand their finances at all. It's like really complicated from what I can tell. We're just gonna probably need accountants to explain it to us because I'm not an accountant. And I was like, oh shit, like that, like that was so much better. Like that was so much better. Like he, and by the way, he totally understands it better than I do. But that like little humble goes a long way. Like in that whole like, yeah, I don't know.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  I was looking at it and I was trying to make sense of it. I'm not that, you know, you gotta explain it to me like I'm a seven year old, you know? And it, and all of a sudden like, oh, he's doing the thing. He's like doing the advocacy thing, but it's like, oh shucks. I don't know what I'm talking about. And I have to tell you, like to me, that's the best lawyering. It's the best, like the best negotiation, you don't know we're in a negotiation. The best seduction, you don't know I'm trying to seduce you. Next thing you know, you're just in bed with me. Like, and you kind of go, how'd that happen? You know, like, and that, because again, the more that it's like, right? Like I'm clearly trying to get you in bed. That's not what's gonna work. What's gonna work is like, I find you fascinating. Like that is like, whoa, okay, you know, like now you got my attention.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  So I really think that that's the best kind of advocacy is, is that that covert advocacy.

• 1:09:08Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I always know I'm about to get totally hoisted one over on in a deal. When it's, because I live in Texas, as you know, but in Texas, when it's an older Texan and a slower drawl, and it happened to me once early on, and now I know to look for it. And he's like, well, you know, I don't know. I'm just a, I'm just a slower Texan over here from, and I just, I have, but explain to me. And then proceeds to ask the most obliterating of questions. But it's that self deprecation.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Why wouldn't I, blah, blah, blah. And then he explains the counter theory that you're like, oh shit, I was hoping he didn't know that.

• 1:09:45Codie Sanchez?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  If you're paying this for that, why wouldn't I just do this instead?

• 1:09:50Codie Sanchez?

  I must be dumb and you're like, oh, you're so much smarter than I am.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  I got nothing for this. Yeah, I got nothing. There's, that's kryptonite right there. And, and look, there's something, again, like, don't sweat the technique. Like that is beautiful, beautiful stuff. And I, I think we have a lot to learn from that because it's kind of all a negotiation, isn't it? Like all of this stuff, our whole lives is a series of negotiations. It's a series of arguments. Like we got it in our heads that like an argument is about making the other person feel small. But it's actually not. It's really about like a series of logical steps to get a person to view things the way that, you know, your position would, would help them be viewed that way. Like that, that feeds into the flow you're trying to get them through.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  So yeah, I think there's a tremendous value in like watching how people do it well.

• 1:10:42Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I know there was a, there was a quote, uh, something like a good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge.

• 1:10:49Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah, and that, that joke is funny on two levels because people think it means like, oh, we know the judge. But what it means is I know what annoys this judge. I know what resonates with this judge. Like there are judges here that I know they really like sports metaphors. So I'll like my opposing counsel's Hail Mary passes that, you know, your honor, he's trying to call an audible right now on this. And I, I, again, I'm not into sports, but I know enough that I can like use those metaphors. You know who's a parent and who's not. You know who's divorced themselves and who's not. Like you know people's, like you get to know what works with this judge. Sometimes, by the way, by being on the receiving end of the opposite. Like sometimes you make an argument and you're like, well, that one didn't work.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  Or you watch your opposing counsel in this case, make an effective argument. And then you say, well, you know, your honor, as in that other matter we have together, when my adversary said X, Y, and Z. So you start to like know the judge's proclivities. That's a lot of what you're doing when you hire experienced counselors. You're hiring someone who kind of knows the proclivities of the judge. But again, that's all about, just like in relationships, it's all about paying attention. Like paying attention to this unique organism that's in front of you. That's why at the end of a day at trial, I'm, I'm exhausted in a way that I, I don't even know how to put into words. Because I'm, it's kind of like when I was a waiter, like it is so hard to make it look so easy.

• 1:12:14Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  You know, you go in the kitchen and it's like, fire food on five. He just, I'm just, I got this diet on the bar and then you walk in and you're like, everything's so serene, you know? Of course I'll get that for you right now, you know? And then you go back and you're like, I need ranch on five, you know? Like, but the truth is like you, it takes a lot of effort to make something look so easy. The same thing happens in, in courtrooms. Like by the time we walk into the courtroom, the trial's like half over. Like when I was a kid, my, my parents used to have barbecues. And my mom would like go to the store, buy all these ingredients, chop everything up, marinate it, prepare it beautifully. And my dad would take it, put it on the grill and then take it off the grill. And everyone would go, oh my God, no, you're such a good cook.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Like she had done 99.9% of the difficult work. He had literally just been there for the last mile of the marathon, if even. Like the point two part of the 26.2. And he would get all the credit. And I think that that's what happens at trials. Like at trials, it's like, by the time you walk in that courtroom, all the prep work's done, all the hard work's done. I think it's the same thing with relationships too. It's like, you know, by the time you guys are in the fight, it's kind of too late. Like a lot of people learn how to fight while they're in a fight. That's the worst time to learn how to fight. Like really, like when you're dating somebody and you're not in a fight, have a conversation about getting in a fight. Like say to them, by the way, we're gonna get in a fight. Like it'll probably be my fault. I'll probably say something stupid. I tend to say dumb shit sometimes.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  So when we get in a fight, what, how, what works for you? Do you need a minute? Should I like not try to force the conversation? Do you need to cool off? Or are you the like, hey, we gotta figure this out tonight. Like we can't go to bed mad type. Cause like I'll meet you where you're at, you know? Like I, again, talking about things that no one ever taught me, that it took me 50 years to learn. Like it took me 50 years to learn of being in unsuccessful relationships. That I could just say, like, cause I have one mode. If I'm telling you about a problem I have, I want your help. If I say to you, I'm having this problem with my son. If I called Chris, I consider Chris a friend.

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  If I called Chris and I said, Chris, I'm having this problem with one of my sons, X, Y, and Z. And he went, that must be really hard, Jim. I'd be like, yeah, no shit, Chris. That's why I called you. What should I do? Like, what do you think I should do? Whereas, and again, it took me 50 years to figure it out. A lot of times the women in my life in particular, just want me to hear them. They want me to hear them, not try to fix it. They interpret me explaining how they could fix it as belittling their emotional experience and not giving credit to their problem solving skills. Like they just want me to go, oh man, that sucks. Like that, that's, she shouldn't have said that to you. That's really terrible, man. You didn't deserve that.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  And then I can see them go, thank you. Like, yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. Like I didn't deserve it. And I'm like, no, you totally didn't deserve that sucks. Like, but again,

• 1:15:27Speaker 01

  what would stop us in relationship from, you come home and tell me something awful that happened to you today? Some deal fell through, something went wrong, something went, and I go, okay, here's the menu. There's a whole menu. I can listen to this and I can just be here and listen to what you're saying. I can give you some suggestions of what I think you might want to do to like, deal with that or solve it or whatever. We can go in the other room and take our clothes off and roll around and I'll take your mind off of it. We can order a pizza and sit on the couch and watch that show that you wanted to watch. And we'll just take our minds off of it. We can, you can pick anything on that menu.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  And by the way, if it's not working, tell me and we'll switch to another thing. Right? Or if you want me to pick, I'll pick. I'll just start throwing stuff at it. And if something's not feeling good, tell me and we'll switch to another thing. Why can't we do, why is it that we're supposed to be experts at this? Like I'm, I'm 53. I've been in therapy for a good 20 years and I understand about 50% of this guy. And I'm in here, like I'm in here and I get about 50% of this guy. And I get it wrong a lot of the time. Like what am I really feeling? What am I really thinking? Why am I feeling that? Why is that bothering me? Why is that like, I'm supposed to figure you out perfectly? I'm not in there. Like I'm in here and I can't figure it out. So could we give each other a little grace?

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Could we give each other a menu? What would be wrong with just giving each other a menu? Isn't it lovely to have options? Like, why do we like the Cheesecake Factory? Cause I have no idea what I want to eat and it's got 80 pages in the menu. And it's like, okay, I could have anything I wanted. And by the way, why do some people hate it? Cause there's just too damn many choices. So great, I'll pick for you. And if it's wrong, okay, then choose something else. Like let's, let's do this for each other. There's no reason not to.

• 1:17:23Codie Sanchez?

  You've seen thousands of cases. You've been married before.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Codie Sanchez?

  There's a 70% failure rate to marriage. Well, roughly.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  It depends on the fine failure.

• 1:17:33Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, if it's not happily married, but stay married, whatever. But I know you're in partnership.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Codie Sanchez?

  So like.

• 1:17:40Codie Sanchez?

  Does marriage still work? Why do you go back to having a partner?

• 1:17:45Speaker 01

  Love, I think love is like when the question people most often ask me is, being a divorce lawyer for 25 plus years, do you believe in love? Do you believe in romantic love? And, and I have to tell you, it, it strikes me as the silliest question. It's like someone saying, do you believe in gravity? I don't have to believe in gravity. It's there. It exists all around me. Like, like love is, is really everything. It's the only thing that really matters to any of us. Like, I genuinely believe that. All of these other things are just symbols of our desire to be loved and to be worthy of love.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  All of these accomplishments are just ways that we're trying to tell the world that we're worthy of love. Like, that's really all they are. Like, they really are just things we do so that someone we respect and care about says, I'm so proud of you. Like, what feels better than someone saying, Cody, you wrote this book. I'm so proud of you. You have so much going on in your life and you found the time to do this thing and share it with the world. I'm so proud of you for that. You had so many reasons why you wouldn't get that done and you got it done. I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud to know you. Like, doesn't that just do something to your heart? That you go like, thanks. Like, thank you.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Like, that's, and that's a real sentiment. That's a real thing. And by the way, it feels good to say it to someone I care about, to tell them I'm proud of them. Cause I know how it feels when someone tells me they're proud of me. And I know how healing and wonderful and warm it feels. And I, I genuinely believe when I look back on my life, it's those moments of connection with another person, like, that I will remember. I, I like to look at relationships as chapters in a long book. And, and a chapter ends and a new chapter begins. It doesn't mean that that chapter was a failure. Like, I was married and it ended.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  And, and she's been remarried for 15 years to a wonderful man who's absolutely nothing like me. Except that we're both tall. Other than that, there's very little in common and he's lovely. Like, he's lovely. I got to hang out with him at my son's wedding for like half the day. We were doing the bow ties with the ushers and stuff. And it was like the greatest thing. And I, I loved her enough and I loved her and knew her long enough. That when I would hang out with this guy, I'm always like, oh yeah, he's perfect for her. Like, he's, he's perfect for her in all these ways that I just wasn't. Like, I love her, but there's so many people that I love, but wouldn't want to be married to. Like, and, and I think that that's okay.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Like, I think that my ex-wife would say, Jim is a really great ex-husband. Like, I love him, but I would never want to be married to him. Like, and I don't blame her. Like, being married, like, being married is a skill set. And, and it's not a skill set for everybody. Like, and, and again, we just assume that people are supposed to get married. Like, if you say, I've made the decision to get married. It would be indelicate for a person to go, really? Why? Why? I mean, by the way, perfectly reasonable question. You're signing up for something with roughly a 70% failure rate. It's reasonable to go, really? Why are you doing that? Like, that doesn't seem like a very good idea. Like, you know, like, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution for you?

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  Like, do you have that problem? Will marriage actually solve that problem? Like, why are you doing this thing? You know, and it's, but instead, it's the opposite. I'm, I'm not, I'm thinking I'm not going to do the thing that fails like 70% of the time. People go, really? Why? Do you have intimacy issues? It's like, no, I might just be rational. I might just understand math and how it works. But again, like, is, is that an invitation to turning off your heart? And turning off the potential for connection? Like, no, I, I think, I look back on every single woman I've ever had a romantic relationship with.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  And there is a moment that when I think of it, I smile. And I think like, oh, that they, they made me a better person. Like, I learned something about myself or about life or about love from them. And I, I really, really, really hope that my ex-girlfriends and ex-wife think, you know, my life was a little better for Jim's presence in it. And that, like, he gave me something of value and I gave him something of, because I have to tell you, every woman I ever had a romantic relationship with, I, I got something of value from that relationship. And every single one of them, I know I never entered into that relationship with anything but good intentions. Like, I, I wanted to love them well and I didn't.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  And it wasn't that I, you know, I, I, I just didn't care about them. It was just that I didn't have the tools. At that stage in life, at that moment, I didn't have the tools or I wasn't the right fit for them. And it was never about wanting to hurt them or to fail them in some way. Like, I failed with good intentions. That's something that people fail all the time at. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be ashamed of that.

• 1:23:14Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Also, God, how much better off would we all be if more of us said that? I think the scary reason why we don't say that is because we're afraid that the other person might say, no, she's a real cunt. You know? Just period, end of story. But instead, if you're like, well, mate, you know, listen, everything doesn't end well. And I don't have any expectations about what the other person might have felt, but I learned something from it.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Well, and accept the possibility. Like, I remember, you know, my ex-wife and I now have been divorced 20 years. So it's a lot easier to talk about things from a distance. You know, when I talk about my mom's passing 10 years ago, it's a lot softer to talk about now than it was, you know, eight years ago, when it was a fresh wound, right? So time is healing in some ways. But I remember like early in our divorce, we were, we were standing at like one of our kids' track meets or something. And we were still, there was still some hurt between us. And she said something like, you know, Jim, like you were, like, you just weren't there so much at the time. Like, you just were just absent. Like, you were just always thinking about work or always thinking of like, you'll never love anyone the way you love the law. Like, you're, it was always this harsh mistress that was always in the room, you know?

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  And, and she was like, you know, and I was a good wife to you. Like, I was really there. Like, I wanted to love you and I wanted you to love me. And she was totally right. But I remember I said to her, I was like, okay. Like, let's accept that that's totally true. Like, let's take it a step further. You were absolutely perfect in the marriage. It was entirely my fault. I completely was the one who screwed it up. You have no blame in this whatsoever. It was solely me. Now what? Now what? We have two children together and our marriage is over. What, what would you, do you want me to say, I'm sorry? I've said it a thousand times. I'll say it as many more times as you'd like me to. I'm sorry.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  I'm sorry for all the things I got wrong and did wrong. I know I didn't mean to hurt you. I know I did and I'm profoundly sorry for it. I really am profoundly sorry for my weakness as a human being, for my failings, for the things I get wrong. I am so sorry. You deserve better than that. I'm sorry. Now what? Now what? It's everyone's fault or it's no one's fault or it's all my fault or it's half your fault? Now what? What do we do? Like, we're here. We have the tools we have. We have the time we have. What are we going to do with it, guys? Are we gonna go on the algorithm and talk about how much men suck and how much women suck? And bring that energy into our next relationship?

• 1:25:44Speaker 01

  Like, or is it possible that we might be brave enough to be vulnerable? And say, yeah, yeah, I'm human. I get some things wrong. I get some things right. You probably do too. Like, I, I want the people in my life to see all my weaknesses. I really do. It's just like my case, just like when I present my case, I want to get ahead of it. I want the eight mile strategy. Because here's the thing, if all I show you is how put together and phenomenal I am, and I hide all the weak parts in me and all the vulnerable, stupid, silly, impatient, impetuous parts of me, all the shit I need to work on, if I hide all that, I will never feel your love. I will never feel your love. You don't love me.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  You love the character I'm playing effectively. No, like, you, I want you to see all that stuff and go, yeah, I see all that. But that doesn't define you. You're all of this. You have all these weaknesses, but they're wonderful. You're perfect, how imperfect you are. You're great. Like, that's how we want to be loved. That's how I want to be loved. And by the way, that's how I love the people I love. Like, the people I love, like, you could, you don't have to be perfect at all for me to love you. I love you more because you're not, like, I love you for your imperfections. I love all the things you get wrong and how you just keep trying. Like, I, I want that. I want that kind of love and I want to give that kind of love to another person. And I, I, I think if, if we could do more of that. We would all be a lot happier and I'd have to get a real job.

• 1:27:14Codie Sanchez?

  James Sexton, so good. Thank you for coming on the podcast. I can't wait for the next book, which I hear rumblings maybe coming out.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  September of 2027. Who knew that the publishing cycle takes a damn long?

• 1:27:26Codie Sanchez?

  And where do you like people to follow the most? I personally like your Instagram.

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  Instagram, that's really it. I don't, I don't do any of the other things really. I mean, I think I have a TikTok, but I, I don't have it on my phone. Like I don't, I have people post it like for me, like, but I don't have anything to do with it.

• 1:27:41Codie Sanchez?

  No, Instagram's so good.

• 1:27:42Speaker 01

  The Instagram is at NYC Divorce Lawyer. And yeah, it's, it's, um, that's really a place to find me. I, I, that otherwise you just find me down at 60 Center Street in Manhattan in the courthouse, you know?

• 1:27:52Codie Sanchez?

  That's still on my list.

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  You gotta come.

• 1:27:54Codie Sanchez?

  I gotta come.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Oh, it's the greatest show in town.

• 1:27:56Codie Sanchez?

  Following this priming thing?

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:58Codie Sanchez?

  I know we can't have a camera in there. It's my main problem. That's what I, I was like, can we? He's like, you cannot.

• 1:28:03Speaker 01

  That's kind of what makes it fun though, is it's like an experience that you have to just have in real life and then you don't get to, there's, we have increasingly fewer of those, like things that aren't so documented. It's kind of fun to just exist in time.

• 1:28:15Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Speaker 01

  And not document it.

• 1:28:17Codie Sanchez?

  Plus I just want to see how the judge interacts with you. The whole thing just seems.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Some, you know, what's funny, it's changed a bit. Cause some of the judges now are like, oh, who does this guy think he is?

• 1:28:27Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, I bet.

• 1:28:28Speaker 01

  Cause there's a lot of my adversaries. Just cannot, they're like, my blur man was like, do you know James Sexton? I'm like, oh Christ, you know, like, and it, it's funny too, because I'm now the world's most well-known divorce lawyer for sure. I might be the world's most well-known lawyer.

• 1:28:45Codie Sanchez?

  I think that's probably true.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  But it's really funny. Cause you know, like I'm, I, I have some colleagues that I think are way better at this than me.

• 1:28:53Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know, but I think also you're one of the happiest attorneys I've ever met.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  I love it. That's the thing that I think separates me.

• 1:28:59Codie Sanchez?

  That's rare.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  Cause I really love it. Yeah. I love the work.

• 1:29:01Codie Sanchez?

  Like I've been, I mean, we have a shit ton of attorneys that we work with and by and large, they're super smart. Very effective. Not that multi-dimensional and all of them, if I go, so would you have your kids fall on your footstep? They're like, oh, fuck. No.

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:29:14Codie Sanchez?

  No.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  I know. Yeah. It's so funny.

• 1:29:16Codie Sanchez?

  Which is rare.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's so funny. I, yeah. I, I said to both of my sons, one of whom's a lawyer, um, but he doesn't do, he works for the court system. He's like the, like the consigliere to a judge. He's like the hand of the king to a judge. Um, he's what's called a court attorney. And I, I have to tell you, like, I said to both of them, like, don't, don't go into law to impress me.

• 1:29:36Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Like go, like find something you love as much as I love the law. Like, and, and just go after it, whatever it looks like.

• 1:29:44Codie Sanchez?

  Cause that's the fun thing to see anyways, in anybody, not too much your kids.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  It's like I said about golf, like I like just being around anybody who's super excited about something, even if I don't get it.

• 1:29:51Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Speaker 01

  Even if I don't, like your excitement excites me. Like if somebody's telling me like about, you know, like a, a book that they read, that I have no desire to read, but they're so enthusiastic. I'm like, ooh, I'm in. Okay. Tell me all about it. Cause your excitement excites me. I love the work. I, I really, it's why, the funniest part for me is like, I'll be on the subway coming back from the courthouse. And like people see me and they're like, oh my God, you're the divorce lawyer is like all over the, you know, I'm like, yeah. And they're like, where, where are you coming from? I'm like, the courthouse? And they're like, wait, you're still a lawyer? I'm like, yeah. What did you think? I just like do interviews and TikTok for a living? And they were like, yeah, that's what I thought. Like you write books and stuff. And I was like, no, this is just like the weirdest hobby.

• 1:30:30Codie Sanchez?

  I get the same exact thing. I feel you're an influencer now. I'm like, God, I wish.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:34Codie Sanchez?

  I wish that I only did this however many hours a week.

• 1:30:37Speaker 01

  You have a full-time job.

• 1:30:39Codie Sanchez?

  This would be sweet, you know, just a professional yapper. That's a profession.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Well, it's good that you've added parenthood to it. You know what I mean? Like throw that, like, what are you gonna be like, what are we doing with all this free time? You know? Like, I know, let's throw a screaming infant.

• 1:30:50Codie Sanchez?

  I'm gonna have to read your book so I don't get divorced and like obsessed with this kid and all this shit.

• 1:30:55Speaker 01

  Chris, Chris won't do better. You know what I mean? At least playing above the rim. I've told him that. I've told him that in a text thread. I was like, buddy, you're playing above the rim, you know, like you gotta, you gotta, he's a good man.

• 1:31:10Speaker 03

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset and new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy to layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence. Whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.