317: Self-Reliance, Self-Control, and Initiative. What We Learn from "Infantry Squad Leader: Combat Leadership" Manual

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:03 - Infantry Squad Leader: Combat Leadership 2:06:49 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:29:25 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 317 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening. All right, the Marine Corps, specifically the Marine Corps Institute has, well, they seem to do this on a regular basis. They put out manuals with, with some incredible insight about leadership, about human nature, about combat.

• 0:30Jocko Willink?

  It is not just about combat. It's not just about combat at all. The things that they put out apply directly to business and to life in general. And I'm going to read some excerpts today from a manual that was actually designed for remote learning. And I think these days when we think of remote learning, we think of Zoom calls. But this is old school, remote learning where you get a book, read a book, read a section, learn about something, take tests inside the sections. It's a, it's one of those, it's a remote learning, old school, remote learning where you'd get a book, a manual, fill in answers, read sections.

• 1:12Jocko Willink?

  This particular class is called Infantry Squad Leader Combat Leadership. And I'm just going to review some of the texts. If you go online, there's, you can go online and get this manual and there's questions and there's quizzes and there's, it's a full on course. But the text that's in it, it's a very well-written text and addresses things that apply to everything that everyone does. All the time, every day, stuff, stuff we all have to contend with. So here we go. Infantry Squad Leader from the Marine Corps Institute.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  Combat leadership. Starts off with a little cover letter from the Director of the Marine Corps Institute. The subject course provides instruction for all Marine NCOs on the conditions of combat and how they can begin to prepare their Marines for combat. Now, if you aren't a Marine and you're a business leader, or you're a football coach, or you're a parent in a family, I think you're going to see this applies to you too.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent. And I know you and I can throw around a hundred percent from time to time, just sort of a little bit much. Hundred percent. But I'm telling you, this one right here, hundred percent. So, starts off, and this is the way they, this is what I like about the Marine Corps thinks through some stuff. Here's something they fought through. It starts off with this. Congratulations on your enrollment in a distance education course from the Distance Learning and Technologies Department of the Marine Corps Institute. Since 1920, the Marine Corps Institute has been helping tens of thousands of hard-charging Marines like you improve their technical job performance skills through distance learning.

• 3:13Jocko Willink?

  By enrolling in this course, you have shown a desire to improve the skills you have and master new skills to enhance your job performance.

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  They're building you up just as you read this. You're getting in the game. Here's your personal character. It actually is going to tell you what your personal characteristics are. You are properly motivated. You have made a positive decision to get training on your own. Self-motivation is perhaps the most important force in learning or achieving anything. Doing whatever is necessary to learn is motivation. You have it.

• 3:49Jocko Willink?

  That's a good tactic, by the way. You seek to improve yourself. Now, again, does this apply to just Marines in combat? How many human beings are looking to improve themselves? Everyone.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  You seek to improve yourself. You enrolled to improve those skills you already possess and to learn new skills. When you improve yourself, you improve the Corps.

• 4:12Jocko Willink?

  You have the initiative to act by acting on your own. You have shown you are a self-starter, willing to reach out for opportunities to learn and grow. These are like the most positive attributes they can put on a human being and they're just throwing them. How about this one? You accept challenges. You have self-confidence and believe in your ability to acquire knowledge and skills. You have the self-confidence to set goals and the ability to achieve them, enabling you to meet every challenge.

• 4:40Jocko Willink?

  You are able to set and accomplish practical goals. You are willing to commit time, effort, and the resources necessary to set and accomplish your goals. These professional traits will help you successfully complete this distance learning course. I was actually thinking we were going to go into like a whole nother realm of living, but it is going to help us with this distance learning course as well. Starts off a little section called characteristics of combat. Every Marine is a warrior, a potential combat leader. You may be in combat tomorrow. Regardless of how well your unit is trained, you must harden yourself for your first action. You do not need to experience combat in order to understand the essential requirements for leading your Marines in combat. However, it's fundamental, it is your fundamental responsibility to physically

• 5:24Jocko Willink?

  and mentally prepare yourself and your Marines for battle.

• 5:29Jocko Willink?

  Now, are we just talking about Marines? What about life? What about life? You may be in a hard situation tomorrow. That's what's going on. So you got to prepare for that. So this starts off with an excerpt. This is probably the longest excerpt that I'm going to read. It's from a book called The Forgotten Soldier by Guy Sayer. It's a book that we actually haven't covered on this podcast. I'll go into a little bit of why that is, but here we go. We had just witnessed two or three major assaults.

• 6:04Jocko Willink?

  From the screams of anguish to our left, we concluded that a great many of our men had been killed. We had emptied five magazines and were warming our fingers on the hot metal of the machine gun. Our sixth and last magazine had been attached and we were anxiously waiting for fresh supplies. The night was continuously lit by the explosions of thousands of Russian shells, which made movement extremely difficult. Our trenches, which in any case were not deep enough, extended only to certain positions. The others had to be reached by leaps and bounds, alternating with plunges to the ground and writhing on our stomachs across dozens of yards of snow mixed with chunks of frozen earth.

• 6:49Jocko Willink?

  From time to time, we could see four figures moving toward us, jumping from crater to crater, carrying shells for our 50mm mortar and magazines for the Spandau. They were still about forty yards away when their shadowy mass was surrounded by a flash of white light.

• 7:08Jocko Willink?

  We never heard any cries. A few minutes later, I was sent out to crawl to the point of impact. The sergeant ordered me to bring back at least two magazines. I had just arrived at my destination when I heard the Russian assault cry, followed by a shower of grenades and mortar shells. The ground shook beneath me in a manner which defied all predictions. I felt like a pea inside a fierce, ferociously beaten drum. I was lying flat on the ground among the bodies of comrades killed only a few minutes before, unable to see any of the supplies I'd been sent to fetch. Then I heard the sound of a tank.

• 7:49Jocko Willink?

  The darkness all around me was broken by streaks of light and large pink and yellow explosions. In a momentary beam from some headlight, I could see a small sign marked S-157.

• 8:04Jocko Willink?

  I opened my mouth wide as prescribed because I could hardly breathe and lay where I was frantically groping for something to hang on to in the diabolical setting where horizontal and vertical alternated to the rhythm of the lights which slashed the darkness.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  I thought that I could recognize the uproar. The crackle of the weapon I had operated with Weiner before. I had only left a moment ago and felt that my sanity might be close to collapse. I could see no escape from my situation and lay glued to the ground with my head down like a trust animal. Waiting for the butcher's axe.

• 8:51Jocko Willink?

  So it goes on a little bit further with this. With this section, which is out of that book, The Forgotten Soldier, and we haven't covered that book on the, on that podcast, The Forgotten Soldier. We probably will at some point. There's some. Disputes about the veracity of the book. And.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  The author, I think I was just reading a little bit more about this last night.

• 9:18Jocko Willink?

  The author, Guy Sayer, he, he, there's some important details that he misses that he just gets it wrong. One of them is there's some patch that they had in this, in this unit. And it was this highly regarded patch and he talks about how they sewed it on to their right sleeve or left sleeve or something like that. And people that were in that unit said, no way would any. Buddy that was in that unit ever make a mistake about where to sew that patch on. That's, that's one of the types of things, or there's certain weapons that he talks about that.

• 9:56Jocko Willink?

  Weren't there. He talks about an aircraft that didn't exist at this time. So there's some things in there that there's some details that were wrong. And some of the veterans that fought fought in the same battles as him have called mountains and this guy's not telling the truth about some stuff. And then there's other veterans that talk about the battles or that he writes about and say, hey, the only way he would have known this stuff is if he was there. So, and here's the thing, memory is not accurate. And people's memories aren't accurate. And certainly people's memory about intense combat operations isn't accurate. And he eventually made a statement about that he kind of said that said, hey, if you want to know the historical details, go ask a general. That was in, actually, I'm about to go off a little bit.

• 10:42Jocko Willink?

  He doesn't say that. Go, he says, go ask a military historian, go ask a general because that's what they do. I didn't want to do that. I'm my book's about the emotions of a combat soldier.

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  But the reason they put this in here is to get a good account of the chaos and mayhem and fear inside of combat. And then you roll right into this section here, which is called fear of combat. It starts off with, we have all experienced fear in combat. Fear can dominate the situation unless you and your Marines can control it. Extreme fear brings out your instinct for self preservation. Survival drive. Survival is a very strong drive, which generally will be a priority concern to any Marine. And as I was reading this, and again, I'm reading these things in the context of life. And

• 11:36Jocko Willink?

  fear is something that people contend with every single day. And it's on all kinds of different levels. But whether it's fear of presenting in front of a client, whether it's fear of asking for a raise, whether it's fear of confronting some situation, whether it's fear of going to a jujitsu class for the first time, like there's all kinds of fears that people face on a daily basis.

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  And here's some good information that yes, it'll help you if you're a combat marine, but it'll also help you if you're a human. Specific sources of fear. Peacetime training may not prepare your Marines for the reality that combat is often a matter of kill or be killed. Some of the specific sources of fear in combat are possibility of being killed, wounded, or captured. Fear of killing. Noise and sights of combat. Apprehensive that you might not measure up as a Marine under fire. And the last one is fatigue.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  So possibility of being killed, wounded, or captured. This is a natural source of fear and always will be present in your Marines. It may lead your Marines to run away from battle or do irrational things in battle. There is no sure way to know which Marine may be subject to such an extreme reaction to fear, to this fear until you get into combat.

• 12:56Jocko Willink?

  Fear of killing. This is not uncommon. Our society is a peaceful one by nature. We are raised to respect the rights of all human beings and have to, and to have respect for life. To forget these facts is to ignore the reality of our culture.

• 13:15Jocko Willink?

  Another one is the noise and sights of combat. These elements have a traumatic, shocking impact on the senses. This causes confusion and a sense of chaos that can become particularly unnerving. No peacetime training can completely prepare you and your Marines for the carnage and emotional impact of combat. To ignore this aspect of combat is to create a lack of understanding that could prove totally debilitating to your Marines. One thing I like about this is it's no punches are pulled. Hey, guess what?

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  The carnage and emotional impact of combat are, you're not going to be able to train for that 100%. You can't completely train for that. It's not, it doesn't sugarcoat.

• 14:02Jocko Willink?

  And then the last one is the apprehension that you might not measure up as a Marine under fire or let your buddies down may be common among your Marines. All of your Marines want to be successful. Their fears, their fears may play on this desire and they may be deathly afraid of letting you or their fellow Marines down. This particular fear may serve as a positive factor by keeping your unit cohesive during battle. It could be detrimental if the fear overcomes the desire to succeed. And they've got a quote in here from S.L.A. Marshall, "Men Against Fire," "When fires, when fire sweeps the field, nothing keeps a man from running, except a sense of honor, the bound obligation to the people right around him of fear of

• 14:46Jocko Willink?

  failure in their sight, which might eternally disgrace him." So it's, it's interesting to think about, so this is like it says, a positive factor. So how does it become a negative factor? It becomes a negative factor when your fear of letting people down doesn't allow you to actually go and do something. So if you, obviously on the battlefield, that could be a thing. Hey, I'm not gonna, I don't want to do, I don't want to take charge of that. I don't want to step up because I don't want to make a bad decision. I don't want to let my friends down. And it can happen in everyday life. And this, this does happen in everyday life, right? People don't want to look stupid. People don't want to have people say, oh, you

• 15:25Jocko Willink?

  know, Jaco failed. Jaco's a loser. So instead, I just don't try anything. So we have to be careful of that. This is, I think, a good thing to think about is even though people, let's say you try something, Echo Charles, and you fail, I might even verbally, oh, Echo, see, he's a loser. But you know what? I think subconsciously, and in some cases consciously, everybody knows, everybody respects that you got, you know, you got up, you, you took a swing, right? Took a swing at bat. And, and especially if they're cowards themselves.

• 16:06Jocko Willink?

  And it's really easy to sit in the, in the, in the, in the audience and watch and poke fun, right? Yeah. Don't be that person that sits in the audience and pokes fun. Get up to bat.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  Don't be afraid of looking bad. I guess my point is, don't be afraid of looking bad because you don't actually look bad. When you make an attempt, when you step up, people respect it. Even if they try and bring you down, they're lying. They're just trying to bring you down because they know that you stepped up and they didn't. So don't be afraid of that.

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  And the last source of fear is fatigue. Both mental and physical fatigue is a source of fear. As you become exhausted, your ability to reason may begin to deteriorate. As you become more and more tired, you may become indecisive and slow in carrying out your orders. When confronted daily and constantly with the stress of combat coupled with fatigue, you and your Marines may feel helpless and unable to continue the fight.

• 17:10Jocko Willink?

  And they've got a quote in here from Major General Hart from a book called Determination in Battle. It says, "There's no doubt that troops, however well-led, can only take the stress of battle for so long. Then they break. Ask any commander at any level who tries to overdraw the account is courting disaster. The mental and the physical constantly interact. Therefore, physical fatigue, hunger, disease, thirst, and above all, the stress of adverse climatic conditions can reduce the physical state of the soldier to such an extent that his will to fight will be broken."

• 17:53Jocko Willink?

  Fatigue makes cowards of us all. Echo Charles? Yes, sir. Do you agree with that? I agree with that 100%. Do you feel like I'm personally attacking you right now? Oh, yeah. I do. 100%. Yeah, that is a disturbing thing. But this is something that you don't fall prey to it quite as much. But man, in the early days of jiu-jitsu, and by early days, I mean when you were like a purple belt.

• 18:20Jocko Willink?

  You didn't like getting tired at all?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  It used to really bother you.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  I still don't like getting tired. But I think, you know, when you can kind of reconcile the whole big picture where, you know, you know, this, this kind of it's obvious now where like, okay, the best way to fight your fear is to get used to that thing that's that, you know, that you don't like or whatever. So, yeah, so yeah, you conditioned, but that, but here's, this is how I know that I still don't like it. Where like if I didn't, if I haven't done any conditioning for a while and I'm like, I gotta get back into conditioning that first day, I'm like, oh my God, this is, I can feel it. It's like,

• 18:58Speaker 01

  is it, is, I wouldn't call it a fear of the conditioning, but you ever had a work, yeah, like, you know, okay, you know how you used to talk about the 20 rep squats, right? You know, when you got the 20 rep squats coming and you know that pain is coming. You know, you kind of get the butterflies a little bit before the, I mean, I don't know if you do.

• 19:13Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I don't get the butterflies. I, I get like the, I get rationalization. You know, so I'll be thinking, ah, you know what, I don't, this, does this really kind of the workout that's really good for you? You know what I mean? I'll like start having all these conversations with myself.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:30Jocko Willink?

  And it's just lies.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's part of it too, but mine was for real, like I'll be, I'll be nervous of the conditioning. Like I don't, cause and, and maybe this has a lot to do with like the kind of workouts that I've always like, done or whatever, where you kind of have a standard where you, you know, okay, so if I have four exercises, that I'm gonna do as part of a conditioning circuit, I have four exercises and I do one, I do the other, do the other, the other, and I have a time to rest in between, like, you know, 20 seconds or 30 seconds, or do them all with no rest and then rest 30 seconds or whatever. To me, if I don't, if I have to rest more than the 30 seconds, like, I can't, go, you know, like I can't, like, you know, 30 seconds comes and I can't go because I gotta rest more, I failed the workout. It's like going for a PR and failing it, right?

• 20:15Jocko Willink?

  How mu- how do you measure the 30 seconds?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  I have a clock going.

• 20:20Jocko Willink?

  What do you press start when you get to the end of whatever you're doing?

• 20:23Speaker 01

  No, so you just have the stopwatch going, so you start it and then you do it and you keep the stopwatch at that first circuit. So when you're done and you're back to the first circuit or you're finished the last circuit, you see and you do the math in your head.

• 20:38Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you just run the math?

• 20:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:39Jocko Willink?

  Do you ever do workouts where you're not thinking straight, like as far as running math? Cause sometimes when I'm not running math, man, it's like there's just some things going on where it's not happening.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, thirty seconds is easy though.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  To run the math, but oh yeah, it's an additional mental thing that kinda is like.

• 20:55Jocko Willink?

  A little mental conditioning for every child.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  But I'll be nervous though before it, like if I don't, if I haven't been doing it for a while, I'll be like kinda nervous like, what if I can't do it, you know, it's my workout, what the hell, what am I scared of, you know? But it's like I'll have that thought, it's weird.

• 21:11Jocko Willink?

  Alright, well that's an effective fear, which is the next section here, effects on the squad. Fear is infectious. It can destroy the effectiveness of your squad. Recognize fear and deal with it promptly.

• 21:27Jocko Willink?

  Boy, is that important as a leader. Automatic body reactions. Physically, your body reacts when threatened or when you anticipate danger. Listed below are automatic body reactions to fear. Trembling, heart pounding, irrational laughter, sweating, tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, fight or flight response.

• 21:51Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever been trembling in fear before?

• 21:55Speaker 01

  No, not that I can.

• 21:56Jocko Willink?

  What about, so when you're getting ready for one of these workouts that you're scared of?

• 21:59Speaker 01

  No, I'm not trembling in fear now.

• 22:02Jocko Willink?

  Have you ever, I remember sometimes when we were getting ready to do an op, like I'd look at some people in the room and sometimes they, not trembling, I'm trembling, no, but uh, like shaking, like tapping their foot real hard and just that kinda stuff, you know? Um, moving around a lot, super nervous.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Well, that makes sense, hundred percent. Yeah, you're going on a military operation. Yes, sir, I understand that, but no, I haven't been on a military operation, so. You know what, I guess in football games, before football games, I'd yawn all the time for no reason.

• 22:35Jocko Willink?

  That's one of those things.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  It's like involuntary, yeah, where it's weird, but.

• 22:39Jocko Willink?

  What about uh, your stomach?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  You know, like I'm feeling a little bit sick.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it'd be, and it wouldn't be my stomach. I'd have a weird gag reflex. And remember, remember Scott Catlin?

• 22:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  So he would, like, every once in a while, he'd be at the tournament with me or whatever, and he'd be in training with me and stuff a lot. So in the tournaments, like before my first match only, I'd, I'd have a weird gag, like, almost like I want to throw up. And I didn't feel consciously nervous, but

• 23:08Jocko Willink?

  Obviously you were.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Obviously, yeah, my body was like, dude, I wouldn't like throw up, but I'd have a weird gag thing and he'd be like, don't start that shit now.

• 23:15Jocko Willink?

  And actually, you know what, though, what I messed up here is that this is, I guess it's not, it's not, it is fear. I was gonna say, maybe this is just about fatigue, because it says fatigue causes fear. I was thinking that this was just fatigue, but no, this is actually just what fear does to you. Some psychological reactions to inability to make decisions, obsession with minor details. Oh, I've seen that before.

• 23:37Jocko Willink?

  Lack of confidence, breakdown of discipline. You, in, in, um, psychology, for the incompetence, military incompetence. He talked about how some leaders would become obsessed with details. And that's because they were just scared. They're like, oh, we need to do this again. Oh, let me go, let me get her.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  Something to watch out for. Some extreme reactions to fear occur when the individual has confronted a situation where death appears to be imminent. During such instances, two basic forms of behavior have been observed. Aggression and rage, one, freezing under fire, two.

• 24:18Jocko Willink?

  Going to some details. Aggression and rage. From Combat Motivation by Anthony Kellet was, is a statement from a German soldier on the Eastern Front during World War II, describing how German soldiers reacted when overrun by Russian hordes. The quote below describes aggression and rage. "We fought like rats, which do not hesitate to spring with all their teeth bared when they are cornered by a man infinitely larger than they are."

• 24:44Jocko Willink?

  And then freezing under fire, the other end of the spectrum. From Medigas Fire by S.L.A. Marshall came the term freezing under. Writing about action in Omaha Beach, World War II, the quote below describes freezing under fire. "They sat there numbly in the line of fire, their minds blanked out, their fingers too nerveless to hold a weapon."

• 25:08Jocko Willink?

  Fight or flight, that's what we're talking about.

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  And here's some conditions that stimulate fear.

• 25:17Jocko Willink?

  You gotta overcome your own fears. Though you share the same risks in fear, you must be able to overcome your own fear and provide the leadership necessary to achieve success in combat. The Marines you lead are your Marines. You have lived, trained, sweated, and grown into an effective fighting unit together. Before you face a violent, brutal, and cunning enemy, you must understand the conditions that stimulate fear, inspire confidence, and encourage in your Marines.

• 25:46Jocko Willink?

  There's a quote here from Battle Leadership Captain Von Schell, which we've covered on like, I don't know, maybe the fourth or fifth podcast here. "In peace, we learn how to lead companies, battalions, regiments, even divisions in armies. We learn in books and by maps how one fights and wins battles, but we are not instructed in the thoughts, the hopes, the fears that run riot in the mind of the front line soldier."

• 26:11Jocko Willink?

  There are three conditions that stimulate fear: unexpected, unknown, and feelings of helplessness.

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  That's a good breakdown.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  Yes, it is.

• 26:21Jocko Willink?

  Unexpected, whoa, unknown, uh-oh, and helplessness, oh.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  And I think that's the tired part, right, where tired fatigue is like...

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  Part of fear.

• 26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you know you're gonna be helpless, straight up.

• 26:38Jocko Willink?

  Unexpected. Enemy actions that appear as a surprise will have a powerful impact upon your Marines. Being surprised by the enemy has been described as causing the, quote, "will that controls fear to sag and crumble," end quote. When your Marines begin to sense that they do not have control over their situation, they may begin to panic. At such moments, you must exert a strong influence upon them to maintain control over the unit's actions.

• 27:12Jocko Willink?

  Surprise is a big deal and you know, I can't help but think of this. I also think of the other end of the spectrum, the opposite end of the spectrum, which is what you want to impose surprise on your enemy, right? You want to, that's one of the speed, surprise and violence of action. Like one of the mottos of the SEAL teams and really of combat in general. Cause that's what it does. It just, it's the same thing and you know, like on the mats, that surprise thing, that's when you get caught. Unknown. Your Marines will worry about what they have not seen and what they do not know. You will have a tendency to think the enemy is much greater in

• 27:53Jocko Willink?

  strength or ability, but really is not. Do not be deceived as to enemy strength or capabilities through exaggerated impressions. This is Mikey and the Dragons, right? The Dragons, you think the Dragons are all be big and scary, but they're not. And this is something important to think about because the context here is like, hey, you're leading troops and they're scared of the enemy. They're scared of your competitor. They think the competitor's got all the advantages. They don't.

• 28:22Jocko Willink?

  Feelings of helplessness. You, and it's got that capitalized. You must prevent this from taking hold. Act to direct and inspire the response against the enemy. Everyone has a job that must be accomplished. Ensure that everyone is doing what must be done. And this is key. Action is a way to prevent this condition from taking hold. Keep your Marines busy. Now, look, I, I don't like saying keep people busy and they do actually talk about this a decent amount in this book, but I have to admit that it is true. The, the same thing that causes an individual to get obsessed with some details is the same thing when your team, they're trying to distract their mind from

• 29:06Jocko Willink?

  what's going on. So you can actually utilize activity to prevent this, but also, so there's, there's one thing like, oh, I can see that Echo is nervous about tomorrow. Hey Echo, can you do me a favor and? You know, help me load up the, the vehicles with water. And you're like, okay, cause now you're thinking about that. That's one part of it, like almost that administrative part of it. But then also if there's something happening for, if we're in a gunfight and you start freaking out or you're starting to look scared, you know, it's echo, get over there, pick up security in that door. Okay, now you've got something to do, you got, you know, so

• 29:46Jocko Willink?

  there's an administrative way to do it and there's also a, an active moment to actually give people direction. And as soon as we're taking action, we're moving in the right direction. We're moving in the right direction for taking action. One of the worst things we can do is let the team sit there and dwell over what's unfolding around us. Let's do something.

• 30:10Jocko Willink?

  There's an example in here.

• 30:14Jocko Willink?

  He was firing behind a log. His face was gray. His eyes were dull and without hope. He stopped firing and looked around. It didn't do any good, he said. His voice was flat and he was speaking to no one in particular. I got three of them, but didn't do any good. They just kept coming. They just keep coming.

• 30:35Jocko Willink?

  Platoon Sergeant Kazimir Palakowski, known as Ski, said, what the hell are you beefing at? You get paid for it, don't you? The kid managed to grin as Ski crawled on down the line. The boy, now a man, was once more squeezing him off. And that's from a book called Guadalcanal Diary.

• 31:02Jocko Willink?

  Richard Trigaskis.

• 31:07Jocko Willink?

  Leadership role. Additionally, the first shock of realizing that the enemy actually intends to kill you is a powerful factor that everyone will face. Until this threshold is crossed and your Marines become accustomed to the, to functioning under fire, you must act decisively to ignite the confidence and individual actions that will transform fear into an aggressive response. Your presence as a leader has tremendous value in overcoming fear, particularly at night, adverse weather, or during lulls in the action. During these times, imaginations run wild. And your Marines think they may be alone or isolated. So again, taking action and, and

• 31:51Jocko Willink?

  influencing there to be action in these moments when people are nervous or scared, that's a great move to overcome fear. Next section is stresses of combat. And again, these are extreme examples, this is combat examples, but they're stressing every job, they're stressing every business, they're stressing life.

• 32:12Jocko Willink?

  Killing the enemy that's trying to kill you is only half the battle.

• 32:17Jocko Willink?

  To your Marines enduring discomfort, fatigue, and the other hazards and stresses of combat is what must be done so that they can succeed in combat. Sources of stress in combat, fatigue, discomfort, casualties, boredom.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  As you become, for fatigue, as you become increasingly tired, you will lose the ability to make decisions rapidly. You will become more easily confused, disoriented, and ultimately ineffective. You must understand the effects of fatigue on yourself and your Marines, and when to provide for rest, especially amidst the chaos of battle.

• 32:52Jocko Willink?

  Here's some key indicators of fatigue: reckless disregard for safety of self or fellow Marines, excessive caution or unwillingness to expose oneself to risk, failure to fire weapons, lack of concern for the condition of weapons or other equipment, lack of concern for personal cleanliness.

• 33:11Jocko Willink?

  So all those things are what we need to watch out for as leaders when people are not engaged anymore.

• 33:21Jocko Willink?

  Develop, here's some things you can do. Develop a sleep plan for your unit that, to ensure that everyone, including yourself,

• 33:29Jocko Willink?

  gets a minimum of four hours of sleep per day, situation permitting.

• 33:35Jocko Willink?

  Rest is preventative treatment that keeps senseless casualties from occurring. So there you go, Echo Charles. Got to make sure, make sure, I want you to make sure you get four hours.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yes, okay.

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  Hey, listen, for those people that are...

• 33:51Jocko Willink?

  Freak out because I wake up early and think I hate sleep. I don't hate sleep. Sleep is good for you. You should sleep a bunch. It's when you heal. It's when you get strong. It's how you maintain your, your mental and physical health.

• 34:08Jocko Willink?

  So you should sleep and you should sleep a lot, which is why I thought it was kind of funny that they said, hey, look, hey, at a minimum, you gotta get four hours.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you gotta get.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  I will say that's a number though, in, in extreme situations. Four hours is a, is like something that you can maintain function on for a long period of time. I know I can. Under four hours and it starts to chip away at me after a while. But if I can sleep for four hours, I'm kind of stoked a little bit.

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 34:37Jocko Willink?

  No, and on a normal day, you know, like normal day to day life, I sleep like six hours, you know? Cause that's what the body needs. Some people it's eight, some people it's five, you know, different.

• 34:50Jocko Willink?

  Uh, Marines adversely suffering from the effects of being cold, wet, hungry, thirsty, or weary will, will determine their ability to fight well. Marines tend to develop a high tolerance for enduring the extremes of weather without much support. However, there is a point where morale is affected and your unit's actual ability to fight becomes questionable.

• 35:12Jocko Willink?

  At the first opportunity, provide dry clothing, protection from the elements, food and water. There you go.

• 35:20Jocko Willink?

  Sources of stress in combat. The following excerpt from Battle at Best by SLA Marshall describes how taking care of your Marines pays its dividends in combat.

• 35:35Jocko Willink?

  And again, we covered SLA Marshall on this podcast. I forget what number and there's some definite concerns with the veracity of him and some of the information that he put out. But as I said, when we cover on the podcast, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

• 35:54Jocko Willink?

  This is a really interesting case.

• 35:58Jocko Willink?

  At dark on 8 December, the snowfall ceased and the cold intensified. Down along the canyon road near the water gate, a brisk wind was piling the drifts as high as a man's head. At the battalion CP, which was partly sheltered by the canyon wall, the thermometer read 30 degrees below zero.

• 36:20Jocko Willink?

  Up on the windswept crags where Abel Company was clearing Chinese dead from the bunkers to make room for its own ranks, and at the same time preparing to evacuate its own casualties down the iced slopes of the mountains. It must have been a touch colder than that. Though there was no reading of the temperature, all batteries had frozen, weapons were stiffening. The camp, long since, had run out of water because of the freezing of canteens. To ease their thirst, the men ate snow and seemed to thrive on it.

• 36:57Jocko Willink?

  But of the many problems raised by the weather, the most severe one was getting an average good man to observe what the field manual so easily described as "a quote, common sense precaution."

• 37:10Jocko Willink?

  For example, prior to marching, Captain Barrow of Abel made certain that each of his men carried two spare pairs of socks. But that safeguard did not of itself ensure his force, though the men with feet, sweated from the rigors of the day, were all at the point of becoming frostbite casualties by the hour of the bivouac.

• 37:36Jocko Willink?

  And here's what, here's what Captain Barrow said. "I learned that night that only leadership will save men under winter conditions. It's easy to say that men should change socks, getting it done is another matter. Bootlaces become iced over during prolonged engagements in snowdrifts. It's a fight to get a boot off the foot. When a man removes his gloves to struggle with the laces, it seems to him that his hands are freezing, his impulses all against it."

• 38:11Jocko Willink?

  So I found it necessary to do this by order, staying with the individuals until they had changed, then making them get up and move about to restore circulation.

• 38:26Jocko Willink?

  That process, simple in the telling, consumed hours. By the time Barrow was satisfied that his command was relatively snug, it was wearing on toward midnight. Right then, his perimeter was hit by a counterattack, an enemy force in platoon strength, plus, striking along the ridge line from 1081 in approximately the same formation which Barrow had used during the afternoon. All that needs to be told of this small action is summed up in Barrow's brief radio report. "They hit us. We killed them all, all that we could see. We have counted eighteen fresh bodies just outside our lines."

• 39:03Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, this is Captain Barrow that became the 27th Commandant. So he had to go person to person and physically make sure they were doing exactly what he told them to do. Because the tendency is to curl up into a ball and die. And you know, we covered some of the, or one of the prison camps in Korea, and that, that individual specifically talked about that decision. Is there was people that just, they just gave up, and they're not going to do anything else, and they're not going to try, and they just accepted death. And the guys that lived were the guys that said, "No, I'm not going to give up."

• 39:47Jocko Willink?

  But these little things, like, you know, your feet are sweating, and your socks are wet from working all day, climbing up this mountain, and then you get up there, and you're going to be up there for a while, you have to change your socks, or else you're going to freeze. And your ices are laced up, and it's colder than 30 degrees below zero.

• 40:10Jocko Willink?

  Here's another source of stress in combat casualties. Seeing a fellow Marine go down has a traumatic impact upon you and your Marines. Brutal combat is brutal and casualties are to be expected. The shock of seeing your buddies wounded or killed and the possibility that may happen to them adds to the fear and apprehension of the survivors. It increases your Marines reluctance to take risks and obey you. How individuals respond after their unit has taken casualties is a key indicator of their effectiveness of their training, self-discipline, and preparation for combat. Proper care for your wounded has a great effect upon morale, assuring your Marines that if they are hit, their fellow Marines will take care of them.

• 40:55Jocko Willink?

  There's an unwritten code among Marines that if wounded and unable to fend for yourself, another Marine will come to your aid. And, and look, that exists in the Marine Corps, but that should exist in your team too. In your organization, someone has a problem, someone has an issue, someone has a sick kid, someone has, they get sick themselves and you take care of them? That's going to help them. It's gonna, it's gonna bring your unit closer together. Says your Marines need to recognize that the quicker they take the objective, the quicker their fallen comrades get help. Stopping to take care of your fellow Marines during the assault will bog down the unit. During the assault, Marines cannot stop to aid a fallen comrade. The corpsmen will take care of the casualties in the best possible manner

• 41:38Jocko Willink?

  until you are able to send for help. That's something we learned basically day one, win the fight. That's also a prioritize and execute scenario. That's probably the first prioritize and execute thing that I ever learned. You gotta win the fight.

• 42:00Jocko Willink?

  At the first opportunity, leaders and comrades should look for casualties. Every Marine must be accounted for. Dead and wounded are removed from the combat area as soon as possible. And it's got a section here about boredom. In combat, the squad leader should fight inactivity and boredom with the same tenacity used against enemy troops. That might be a bit strong. Look, I don't want my troops to be bored, but I'm gonna be more tenacious against the enemy than I am against boredom. The boredom and that inactivity produces can negatively impact your squad if they become complacent. When the time comes, when the time for combat comes, this inactivity may result in a less effective unit.

• 42:40Jocko Willink?

  And there's another thing, this, one thing that I think is good, good to think about. If you push somebody, if you, if you're giving someone something to do, kind of making, almost making it up, not quite, but like, hey, we're gonna run this battle drill again. Hey, we're gonna do another briefing. Hey, we're, we're gonna review this. Hey, we're gonna maintain our weapons again. If you're doing that kind of stuff, you should, you should give them a time for, hey, right now, we got an hour, relax. You should give them a specific amount of time to stand down, to relax, to take a knee, whatever. I think that is important, too. If you're trying to keep them busy all the time, that's not smart.

• 43:24Jocko Willink?

  You need to find a moment to go, okay, hey, we got a half an hour, everybody, take your, take your ruck off, relax. Yeah, see here, it says, keep your Marines occupied by delivering intelligence briefs, reviewing the rules of engagement, rehearsing immediate action drills during the lulls and pace of operations. By doing so, so you prevent disciplinary problems by turning your squad's thoughts away from themselves to the work at hand. Again, good, yes, I like it, I agree with it. However, comma, you gotta give people a little bit of downtime.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Is that kind of parallel whatever to uh the idea of you know, okay, so you go to the gym, we'll say, right? So let's say you want to go to the gym after work, not before work, right? After work. So if you let's say as a routine, you go from work, you get off work and then you go straight to the gym.

• 44:19Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  That's better than going home first, decompressing a little bit, then going to the gym, right?

• 44:25Jocko Willink?

  You know, I don't know if what you're talking about is the same thing, but it's a hundred percent true.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  I think so though, because there's, you know, when you get like downtime or whatever, like too much downtime essentially, right? Like where it's not like you have to rest and recover from work to go to the gym unless you do, and that's a whole different thing.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I'm talking about the idea that you come home from your office, you know, and you're physically not exhausted. Maybe mentally you are, but whatever, you go straight to the gym because you don't give your your mind, just like I always said, a chance to think about like yourself, your own, like, how am I feeling? I'm in the mood and it's like, it kind of creeps up on you, you know, when you have that downtime. But if you go straight to the gym, you're like, hey, we're still, we're still moving, you know?

• 45:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  You don't get a chance to think.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  That's true. That is, that is accurate.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  And then i- if you take that to the extreme where you all of a sudden you're not getting any rest at all, you don't have any downtime, then you gotta watch out for that.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's almost like the idea that let's say your, your job is like super physically demanding, like you're a, what, what'd you, what'd you say, a drywall hanger or something?

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Drywall hanger, just getting after it.

• 45:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's one that you said you did. Either way, let's say you did, you know, eleven, twelve hours of that.

• 45:36Jocko Willink?

  Let's say roofer.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Roofer, yeah, in the hot sun even. Boom, okay, go home, take a little snoozer even, then hit the gym, you can be kind of like refreshed a little bit.

• 45:46Jocko Willink?

  I bet you'd be better off just going straight there.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  Sometimes, I think so sometimes. I think there's.

• 45:50Jocko Willink?

  Plenty of people here at our gym where they're coming off of a long day of work in construction and then it's like right onto the mats, you know?

• 45:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:57Jocko Willink?

  I think that's a better move, bro. I would, for me, it's a better move.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Mentally, it's a better move, I think.

• 46:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  Physically, you go recover a little bit. That's what I think.

• 46:07Jocko Willink?

  But you're driving here, you know, you got like a half an hour or whatever.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying mentally, but because when you're driving here, you're thinking about training more than you're thinking about relaxing. I'll tell you that. You go home. Have a snack, turn on the TV just for a little bit.

• 46:22Jocko Willink?

  You're letting the window close. That was one of the better conversations we once had was you're letting that window close.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:28Jocko Willink?

  It's like, oh, it's getting a little bit smaller, a little bit smaller. Oh, can't make it. Oh, you know, I got a little too busy.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:32Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes my wife will wake up early. And like, there's that, you know, whatever, that uh, gravity of, you know, she's, oh, you know, talking to me and stuff.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  All right. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 46:49Jocko Willink?

  But we have workouts to do, you know?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  But yes.

• 46:54Jocko Willink?

  Or like I'll come back down to the house to like grab some more water or something. Cause I'm in my garage, you know, uh, and then I go back down to like grab some water and she's awake. And she's having a cup of tea cause she's from England.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:10Jocko Willink?

  And she's like, oh, morning. And I'm like, and there's that gravity, you know? I kinda wish she honestly, no offense to my wife, I kinda wish she wasn't awake. Cause I kinda wanna like hang out with her a bit, you know?

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  And I have to not.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. That's real. That's real. Even with us, when we show up here, whatever, we wanna talk about some stuff, you know? Do this, do that. Yeah. The workout thing, especially with your wife, cause there, even if you don't wanna talk to your wife. I'm not saying that's my case.

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Maybe, maybe not. Either way, even if you don't wanna talk to her. Hypothetically, you can't just disrespect her and be like, yeah, cool story. I'm busy. She knows what you're doing. You're working out. Take a minute. Talk to me. I'm your wife, you know, for better or worse, all this stuff. And you're over here just dissing me for like some curls or whatever you're doing in there. You see what I'm saying? And that's what it really does feel like when you're doing it. So, yeah, I can jam you up, man.

• 48:05Jocko Willink?

  I hope my wife sleeps. I like when she, I like when she sleeps a little later, you know?

• 48:10Speaker 01

  Get, get her rest. Yeah.

• 48:11Jocko Willink?

  Get some rest, girl. Get some rest.

• 48:16Jocko Willink?

  Success in combat. The focus of this study unit is to teach you the important factors of leadership so you can perform better as a leader in both peacetime and in combat.

• 48:25Jocko Willink?

  The way that you respond to these leadership challenges is crucial to achieving success in combat. Factors to success.

• 48:33Jocko Willink?

  As an infantry squad leader, you control the lives of 12 Marines. They look to you for instruction and guidance. This part is important. Your most casual remark will be remembered. Your clothing, vocabulary, and method of leadership will be imitated. They're listening and it has impact. When you start making little cracking jokes about the LT. Those jokes have a lot more impact when they're coming from you as a squad leader.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  What's the LT?

• 49:09Jocko Willink?

  The lieutenant.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  Oh, gotcha.

• 49:11Jocko Willink?

  When you're cracking jokes about the VP of Sales. Your little sales team is that those have more impact than you think. This is something I always had to be careful to when I went from being. Maybe it's even to this day. When I went from being an E5 in a platoon, E5 Mafia, where everybody is a target. Everybody in the entire chain of command is a target for ridicule. And then all of a sudden, when I became, you know, like an officer, assistant platoon commander, platoon commander. I had to freaking dial that back. You just can't be going dropping napalm on that chain of command over every little thing. And it's tempting because it's funny and that's what you're used to.

• 49:56Jocko Willink?

  I had to dial that back. Leif always cracks up when I go E5 on somebody, you know, I start dropping the hammer on someone.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hey, this is a side note. Okay, so you always talk about that, like the E5. It's like a thing. E5 Mafia.

• 50:13Jocko Willink?

  E5 Mafia.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  And I've heard of E4, or I think, and then E6, of course. What's with E5? That sounds, to me, that sounds pretty high, like there's E1, right? Is there an E1?

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  There's E1, but you're not an E1 for very long. You're like in boot camp, you're an E1. You're probably going to make E2 out of boot camp. E3, you should be pretty much, you know, within maybe, I don't know, a year. Then you're E4. So now you could be E4 for like a few, a couple of years, you know, maybe two, three years. So you may or may not have done an deployment. And this is also back in the day, guys make rank faster now than we did.

• 50:51Jocko Willink?

  So back in the day, the.

• 50:55Jocko Willink?

  E6 was a leadership position.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:58Jocko Willink?

  E5 was the boys and then new guys were kind of E4s. Maybe even E3s occasionally.

• 51:04Speaker 01

  So essentially.

• 51:05Jocko Willink?

  I don't think there's an E3 in a SEAL platoon today at all. I don't think there is. I think there I think there's barely any E4s. It's mostly E5s and now you have multiple E6s in a platoon. But back in the day, an E6 was an LPO. He was the leading petty officer. Then you had a chief petty officer, then you had the assistant platoon commander and the platoon commander. So you had those were the senior people. We called them the top four. And then you had new guys, you had four or five new guys, which were probably E3s. No, they're probably E4s, maybe an E3. And then you had the group in the middle.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:41Jocko Willink?

  And these were the E5 mob.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  So they were they're not, when you say they're E6 leadership position, so E5 is not like they're not anyone's boss. They're they're just the the guys.

• 51:54Jocko Willink?

  Now, they they might be one, they might be a new guy's boss. Like when I was an E5 mobster, I had an E4 that was a new guy that was a radio man.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:03Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm trying to trying to draw comparison.

• 52:07Jocko Willink?

  And actually, part of the time I was in the E5 mafia, I was in E4. Cause I didn't make E5 very rapidly.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:14Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 52:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. But that E5 mafia is like the people that are doing the work.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 52:20Jocko Willink?

  Like when you were a bouncer, how many bouncers were there?

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know, 15.

• 52:25Jocko Willink?

  Okay, this is it. Now, one of them was in charge, right?

• 52:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:28Jocko Willink?

  Maybe two of them. Hey, this guy's in charge of the shift or whatever.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 52:32Jocko Willink?

  So those guys are in charge of the shift. Then you had a couple like new guys that kind of sucked or whatever.

• 52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:38Jocko Willink?

  But then you had a core group of guys that kind of if you could say something, people are gonna have to listen.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:43Jocko Willink?

  There you go. That's your E5 mafia.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what it was? And now that I'm thinking of it, it's there's the door guys. They're all called door guys, but the guys who worked the front door, which is usually the one and two. And then like a kind of a guy who would switch out, someone who's doing well. But and then there's the rest of the guys who worked, you know, inside. And then, yes, there were like new guys who were like still learning.

• 53:05Jocko Willink?

  Kind of like hey, bro.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, who, yes, and kind of the same thing where you could tell them, hey, go change the toilet paper in the bathroom. You know, like, go do the worst. Yeah, exactly right. So, yeah, I got you. But E5 is kind of high, though, is what I'm saying. It's like.

• 53:21Jocko Willink?

  Well, I can tell. No, it's not kind of high.

• 53:25Jocko Willink?

  But in a SEAL platoon, you're a mid-level. But you're kind of just a shooter, too. You know, you don't, you're not one of the top four. So it's not like kind of high. And right now, everybody, I think, I think everybody in the SEAL teams right now is an E5. If you make it through BUDs, I think you become an E5. It's kind of legit, you know? Back in the day, it was like, no, sorry, bro, you're an E3. You're an E4. Uh, back in the day, if you're on a ship and you're an E3, you had to work in the dishwashing for three months. And we did one deployment. We had an E3 in our platoon, and we somehow got him out of it. Got him out of doing that. But I was an E4 for my second platoon.

• 54:09Jocko Willink?

  So even though I should have been an E5, or I was in the E5 Mafia, but I was an E4. But even then, even in that platoon,

• 54:17Jocko Willink?

  yeah, there's a bunch of E4s, and we were all in the E5 Mafia.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  What does E stand for?

• 54:22Jocko Willink?

  Enlisted.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Enlisted.

• 54:23Jocko Willink?

  And then if you're an officer, it's an O. So you got O1, that's an ensign. O2 is lieutenant junior grade.

• 54:28Speaker 01

  See, that's weird. I've never heard of O anything. All I heard was E. I think I've even heard of E1, E2, E3.

• 54:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, because people talk smack about the O. I'm like, oh, that guy's an E1.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  And then you become, in the Navy, O3 is lieutenant, and then O4 is lieutenant commander. But in the Army, that same rank is called a major. So when, in Ramadi, the Army guys, they, a lot of Army guys would call me major, right? So then some of the, some of my guys would call me the mage.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so there you go.

• 55:08Speaker 01

  And then captain, is it very high or it is high?

• 55:11Jocko Willink?

  Captain in the Army and the Marine Corps is an O four captain, or sorry, is an O three in the Army and the Marine Corps, which is a company commander in charge of 150 guys. Uh, uh, captain in the Navy is much higher. It's an O six and they could be in charge of multiple ships. So a captain in the Navy is much higher rank than a captain in the Army or the Marine Corps. A captain in the Navy is a Colonel, a full bird. You ever heard that expression probably in the movies, you hear that full bird Colonel. So a full bird Colonel, which means they have an eagle on their collar is a full captain.

• 55:57Jocko Willink?

  You don't really say full bird captain because you don't need to, because the reason you say that is in the Army and the Marine Corps, you could be a lieutenant Colonel, which still has a silver oak leaf, which makes you a lieutenant Colonel. So if someone's got the full bird, that's why you, because you can still call someone that's a lieutenant Colonel, you might just call him Colonel, because you're not, it's a big mouthful to say Colonel. Or sorry, it's a big mouthful to say lieutenant Colonel. Hey lieutenant Colonel, what are we doing? But if you say, hey Colonel, that's totally acceptable. So we want to let your boys know like, hey, this guy's a full bird Colonel. Big deal, got that full bird Colonel coming in.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I understand why, I'm, I understand now why I was so unclear about everything. Cause it's like, same words, different, you know, Army's different than Navy and it, but same words, you know?

• 56:44Jocko Willink?

  Well, sometimes Leif and Seth would get called captain by Army guys, by, because that's, you see those two bars, like, oh, that's a captain. If you're in the Army, that's a captain.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:55Jocko Willink?

  So you're not thinking lieutenant, because the lieutenant is a lower rank.

• 57:00Jocko Willink?

  Check. All right. This section breaks out two things. There are two fundamental types of factors that affect success in combat. One, factors over which you have little or no influence that you must try to understand, endure and explain to your Marines. And number two, factors that you can influence directly through your leadership.

• 57:26Jocko Willink?

  And it goes into a bunch of things that you can't, that you have little to no influence. Political guidelines and rules of engagement, availability and quality of replacements, location, weather, terrain, public reaction and support, type of conflict, enemy action, duration. You have control, very little control over those things.

• 57:45Jocko Willink?

  And it goes into talking about the political guidelines, that what you're responsible, making sure your Marines abide by them. Here's an important part, they say pass through the chain of command information that might be useful in correcting deficiencies with rules of engagement procedures. So if you've got some rule of engagement that doesn't make sense, you are responsible for sending that up chain of command. And by the way, if you work in a factory and there's some part of the manufacturing line that doesn't make sense, you are responsible for running that up the chain so it can get corrected.

• 58:20Jocko Willink?

  Little control over who's going to replace you, obviously no control, very little control over location, terrain, weather. So it list goes into a little bit of detail on those things. Then it goes into factors that you can influence.

• 58:39Jocko Willink?

  Morale, motivation, discipline, esprit de corps, proficiency.

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  Morale is the mental and emotional condition, enthusiasm, confidence, or loyalty of an individual or group with regard to the functions or tasks at hand. The squad leader who taps into this valuable resource and keeps it to the forefront throughout the adverse conditions of combat will always prevail. That's a strong word, always.

• 59:09Jocko Willink?

  Motivation is a byproduct of morale. If your Marines are enthusiastic about being part of the squad and have confidence in their squad leader, then they will have the incentive to drive on through adversity.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  Discipline.

• 59:27Jocko Willink?

  Discipline is defined in the dictionary as quote, "to bring under control."

• 59:33Jocko Willink?

  In combat, we speak of discipline. In troops, we speak of the Marines' ability to disregard the natural tendencies of self-preservation and at times, put them in harm's way if necessary. And I would expand on this right now, but they expand on this in a beautiful way. They'll talk about discipline in a beautiful way coming up. Esprit de corps is the unit's spirit.

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  It describes how devoted and loyal they are to the team. Proficiency. Proficiency is being knowledgeable and skillful in your craft. Imagine a unit being so confident in their ability to perform that it affects all of the aforementioned factors. Now you have our unit ready to fight. Morale and motivation is the cornerstone of discipline. Esprit de corps and proficiency. If you instill high morale and motivation in your Marines, this can lead to success. In combat, morale makes up three quarters of the game. The relative balance of manpower makes up only the remaining quarter. That's Napoleon Bonaparte.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  Morale makes up three quarters of the game in combat.

• 1:00:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's one of those ones you go, "Well, yeah," because you know, if you're thinking, you know, your football team against another football team and they have great morale, but you guys are better players, right? Well, it's probably not going to work out too well. But, because this is what I was thinking about last night. I was like, "Well, you know, where's that going to really carry you in a football game?" But then I thought, "What if you, what if your football game was played for months?" You see what I'm saying?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:05Jocko Willink?

  And it wasn't about how big and strong you were, but it was about, "Hey, we're going to be, we're going to maneuver faster than you. We're going to walk further than you. We're going to keep working while you're resting. Like, we're going to keep our weapons clean." Like, all those things, like, that's how you win.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Jocko Willink?

  And all those things have to do with morale. So it might not make a sense in a short engagement in a physical game. It can have an impact, for sure.

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  I would almost say you were right to begin with. In a football game, as far as the example, I mean, you're right either way. But if your morale is low, the other team is high.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  But you have a better football team. Your morale is gonna be low for a reason. Like basically essentially like, oh, you know, it's like there's gonna be in low morale is gonna be a lack of confidence. I'm sure there's gonna be a lack of motivation.

• 1:01:54Jocko Willink?

  And according to the book, lack of proficiency, which negatively affects your morale. So when you know you're not that good, your morale is down.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Exactly right. So like I said, it's for a reason. So their morale is good. What if like everyone, your morale, if you're a better quote unquote, better football team is gonna be for a reason. And then whatever that reason is, I don't know. It's your hypothetical. I don't know, but think of a realistic one. Maybe people are arguing about this and that, so they're not working together as a team.

• 1:02:17Jocko Willink?

  Oh, the morale on the team itself, like what can hurt the morale?

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Exactly right. On the better quote unquote, quote unquote, team.

• 1:02:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like you lose, like you blew a game, like you blew the last game, like you shouldn't have missed the field goal and you did. And you were a better team than them, but then they won morale could be down.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you're arguing with your team, quarterbacks is blaming everyone they hate. You know, maybe their best guy is injured and that, you know, now everyone's not as confident. And like, maybe they're starting, you know, all this other stuff and they're tired because they've been drinking, you know, all this stuff. So technically there, there's, I'm just saying that's, that's a big factor a lot of them. So, so technically they, they are maybe a better team, but the morale is so low for these specific reasons. The other guys, they've been working hard. They even got a strategy in place, a secret strategy. I told you about this one time this team was, we were technically better than them, but they were like saying, oh, we're gonna kick their ass. We're gonna kick their ass. And they're telling the whole island, essentially we're gonna kick their ass so bad.

• 1:03:08Jocko Willink?

  Was this, was this high school?

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I was like, what the, this is uncanny, the, the way they're saying this so much, you know? And then, but they had a little plan and they did, they beat us too with a plan.

• 1:03:18Jocko Willink?

  What was the plan?

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  It was, uh, to do these weird quarterback keep plays with no huddle. So it's just essentially that, uh, that surprise kind of thing. And then just keep going, going, going. So they'd go quarterback keep and we'd kind of stop it. Then they go no huddle quarterback keep and be like, oh, oh, we're scrambling and we kind of stop it, but they gained a little bit more. And they just kept doing it, kept doing it.

• 1:03:40Jocko Willink?

  For the whole, but didn't you figure out a solution for it after they did it for seven or nine times?

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:03:46Jocko Willink?

  Or was it too late?

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  I think our morale went down in that first flurry, to be honest with you. Um, I forget how it.

• 1:03:52Jocko Willink?

  So their morale was high.

• 1:03:53Speaker 01

  Very high.

• 1:03:53Jocko Willink?

  They actually beat you.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, for that reason.

• 1:03:55Jocko Willink?

  I'm always surprised in football that there's not more sneakiness.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think a lot of sneakiness and I feel like we might have talked about this. With football, there's so much history behind the way plays work. That sneakiness usually comes with an element of risk that's equal. So. Yeah, if you do a trick play, like there's a, there's teams that could sort of lend towards more sneakiness, but they lend more towards a risk as well. So like one of the mainstream sneaky plays is called a reverse where. It's like you give the ball, there's many ways to do it, but a standard one would be you give the ball to the running back and an outside run. And instead of keeping running the, the wide receiver who's way over there, he comes around this way. So he's acting like he's running and he gives it to the wide receiver going the other way.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  So the defense has all this momentum going this way with the ball and the reverse just comes around with, but he's a single guy. Cause he has no blockers. If he had blockers, everyone would see the blockers going over there. They'd be like, oh, wait, this isn't, you know, this, so they'd be.

• 1:04:52Jocko Willink?

  The risk being that if somebody picks it up and reads the play, then he's getting annihilated.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Probably behind the line because he has no blockers. Exactly right. Or the, what's the one, um.

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  There's like a hook and lateral, which is a big risk on that one. And then a, a pass back to the quarterback. That's another one. Where like you give it to the running back and he runs and he doesn't go past the line.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  The quarterback does.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  The quarterback runs around the other side on a, on a pass pattern, essentially a receiver. So he goes down and then now the running back. Has to throw the ball to the quarterback, which is huge risk, by the way, bro, they're gonna pick that thing off.

• 1:05:27Jocko Willink?

  And the quarterback gotta catch it.

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Gotta catch it. He has to be open, by the way, because if he's not open, who's he gonna throw it to? Another wide receiver. Usually it's like, you know, it's, you put your eggs all in one basket a lot of the time. And then nowadays people are kind of hip to trick plays. So they kind of wait for it to develop and now the risk goes up, you know? So that's probably why. I'm sure back in the, in fact, sure, what, back in the day, like 1940s football, that's all kinds of weird plays.

• 1:05:52Jocko Willink?

  All kinds of trick plays.

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:05:55Jocko Willink?

  So morale, you guys lost. The other platoon team was hyped on their morale. Your morale was immediately crushed and then you were all embarrassed, then you just lost. So even, even in football, it can be, morale can be, um, three quarters of the game.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:06:15Jocko Willink?

  It says morale is the confident, resolute, willing and often self-sacrificing and courageous attitude of a marine to accomplish the tasks expected by the squad. Morale is based upon pride in the achievement and aims of the squad, faith in you as a squad leader, a sense of participation in the squad's work, devotion and loyalty to the other members of the squad, confidence in the ultimate success of the squad.

• 1:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Whichever army goes into battle stronger in soul, their enemies generally cannot withstand them. That's the Greek warrior Xenophon more than 2,000 years ago.

• 1:06:56Jocko Willink?

  Morale tends to fluctuate even among the best Marines. It must be your constant concern because this is the foundation of discipline. You must recognize the extreme importance morale has to the combat effectiveness of your squad. Marine tends, or morale tends to fluctuate even amongst the best Marines. That's something that's important to note. I'll tell you, it effect, it, it, it fluctuates less. It can't fluctuate. But man, you get some, some motivated troopers, it's hard to even, it's hard to even bring them down a little bit. They're just in the game. And they help everybody. It's

• 1:07:38Jocko Willink?

  so helpful to have somebody kind of motivated in the game, like somebody with high morale. Like, we got this.

• 1:07:44Speaker 01

  And it, it kind of takes someone who can deal with adversity, right?

• 1:07:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  So, and I was thinking-

• 1:07:51Jocko Willink?

  Which by the way is a decision.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, and it's a learned decision to.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Jocko Willink?

  You can be like, look, I know what's happening right now. I can see what's happening. I can see the negativity start to drag down. And you can say, hey, I'm not letting this happen. On me.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:08Jocko Willink?

  And you get crazy.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  So, but that guy who's getting crazy and you're, uh, he has to be kindly used to adversity in one way or another, or at the very least know how to deal with it.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  That's what, yes.

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  So, so it kind of brought me back a little bit to the, to a conversation we had recently about guys quitting, who you, whatever it may be, um, where you would think, no way this guy's gonna quit because he's, he's a stud. But this guy's probably not, you, you get in, you know, in MMA and sports and whatever.

• 1:08:36Jocko Willink?

  In Dick Marcinco's book, who recently died, The Rogue Warrior. He wrote a book, came out in 1992, when I was a new guy in the derms. But he called these people gazelles.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Right. Yes. Yeah.

• 1:08:50Jocko Willink?

  And he said gazelles, they, they're used to winning. They're, they're running, they win and they run, they win, and they're just good athletes and they're just winning, winning, winning. And they show up at Bud's and you, I can promise you, there's gonna be some shit. You lose.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Jocko Willink?

  And if, and that's, you, you hit that adversity wall and you've been a stud your whole life. And all of a sudden, it, I'm sure there's multiple psychological things that can unfold. One of them might be, you're used to winning and now you lose and you get down on yourself. But also, hey, this, this is the hardest thing I've ever done. It's harder than I thought it was gonna be. Or I failed this thing and now what's gonna happen? If I failed this thing and I'm only two days into this gig, I got six more months of this?

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Jocko Willink?

  And I, I already failed. No, I'm, I'm not cut out for this.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  I'm not, totally not used to it. It's totally like an imposition on their whole sensibility. And that's just how, just not used to it. But so you could, in a way, kind of track it back to morale, really.

• 1:09:50Jocko Willink?

  That, that individual's morale gets crushed.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Exactly. Right. Like, so you get a guy who's used to adversity. He's like, hey, this won't crush my morale. I've been here before. I know I can fight back out of this. I know this is gonna end. I know that, you know, guys who know about adversity, but the guy who doesn't, the guy who wins every single time, never failed ever in his, you know, and just things come natural to him. Oh, bro, you let that guy get crushed one time. Morale is down.

• 1:10:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Damn.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  That might be the situation on that one.

• 1:10:20Jocko Willink?

  Could be.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  So morale is kind of because in the beginning you'd think morale, that's just you having a bad attitude about stuff. Your morale is low. Like if, oh hey, my morale is bad, you know, I don't have good. You're kind of, on the surface, it kind of comes off as that. Like, bro, just, I don't know, fire yourself up. Like, basically, essentially, like, make a decision to have a better attitude.

• 1:10:42Jocko Willink?

  What do you think about this? The, the buds, when I was going through buds, they would say false motivation is better than no motivation.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Jocko Willink?

  I kind of agreed with it.

• 1:10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:52Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, you hear someone start getting fired up, whether they're faking it or not, it's like, hey, that guy seems to be stoked, let's go rock and roll.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. And that's, and you know how, um, like, you guys will say like, hey, if you have like the, the, the no bad teams, only bad leaders, right? The boat crews, right? Where you get a guy who's, who's kind of like, hey, it's all good, guys, we're gonna do this and, and he's kind of motivating everybody. Even if they were kind of like beat down, their morale kind of gets, gets more high.

• 1:11:21Jocko Willink?

  On the academy online the other day, I was talking about how you frame things up. And this is a skill that you can attain over time. But if you gave, if you were my boss and you gave me the worst assignment ever, by the time I'm telling the team, I framed that thing up in a totally different way. It is not the worst job. It's a challenge. It's an opportunity to look awesome. We need to do better than everybody. It's like, I'm gonna frame things up all day long in an uplifting morale moment.

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm definitely not framing something up as bad. Like, we're gonna frame this up. And the thing is, it's not a lie. It's the truth. I can't, you can't lie to your team. You can't lie to them and be like, well, hey, everyone, this is gonna be great. We just, hey, everyone, we, we gotta work this weekend. Aren't you excited? You know, if you've just been out in the field for two weeks and then you get back and the boss says, hey, you guys gotta do a dog and pony this weekend. What do you mean? Oh, we got a congressman coming in and we gotta show him our new capabilities and your platoon's doing it.

• 1:12:30Jocko Willink?

  Right? You can't be like, "Hey, everyone, this is Jump for Joy." No, but you can, but you can frame it in a true way. That's, listen up. Hey, the boss just talked to me. They want the best platoon out here to represent and do this dog and pony. We're gonna do, we're gonna knock this guy's socks off. He's gonna think that every SEAL is a damn Terminator robot. When he gets done walking through this stuff, we're gonna get more money for the entire community by kicking ass. You know what I'm saying? It's a different game. I'm fired up right now. I'm ready to do a dog and pony show for a congressman.

• 1:13:04Jocko Willink?

  So you gotta frame stuff correctly.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Like your kids, if they don't like math. You can't be like, "No, math is fun." But you just lied to them. In their frame, they're like, "Okay, I can't really relate to you at all."

• 1:13:16Jocko Willink?

  Not to mention, my trust level is going down.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Jocko Willink?

  Right? Like even a five-year-old knows that this is not fun.

• 1:13:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:13:23Jocko Willink?

  There's a rare person that thinks it's fun, but it's like one in a billion. Freaking Lex Friedman just got fired up looking at a problem when he's six years old. He's like, "Oh, hell, yeah."

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:33Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:13:34Jocko Willink?

  Me, not happening. Lex, good to go.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  You needed a better frame up on that one.

• 1:13:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like Lex framed it up in his mind.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  That's his good frame up.

• 1:13:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, but when you say, "Hey, when you get good at this, right here's gonna make you smarter." This is, you're gonna be able to dominate. You're not gonna have to worry about school when you're dominant in math. You gotta learn this problem. And people are like, "Oh, I can dominate here."

• 1:13:58Jocko Willink?

  All right. Characteristics of morale. Major General William Slim, quoted by John Masters in The Road Pass, The Road Pass Mandalaya, provides an example of how morale can be affected in combat. Again, some of these, these things are really good. Quote, "We have already trained our men to the highest possible level of skill with their weapons and in the use of minor tactics. But in the end, every important battle develops to a point where there is no real control by senior commanders. Every soldier feels himself to be alone.

• 1:14:39Jocko Willink?

  Discipline may have got him to the place where he is, and discipline may hold him there for a time. Cooperation with other men in the same situation can help move him forward. Self-preservation will make him defend himself to the death if there is no other way."

• 1:14:58Jocko Willink?

  But what makes him go on alone, determined to break the will of the enemy opposite him is morale. Pride in himself as an independent thinking man who knows why he's there and what he's doing. Absolute confidence that the best has been done for him and that his fate is now in his own hands.

• 1:15:23Jocko Willink?

  The dominant feeling on the battlefield is loneliness, gentlemen, and morale, only morale, individual morale as a foundation under training and discipline will bring victory.

• 1:15:38Jocko Willink?

  And that's, see, that's what's important. What, what, I read this a couple of times. What's important here is to remember that as the leader, you're the one that's developing their morale. You're bringing together that unit, you're training them to the utmost, you're, you're, you're imparting this, the benefits of self-discipline, you're rewarding those things. And you build this creature, this, this beast,

• 1:16:07Jocko Willink?

  that has this morale that's so strong that they're not going down.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  Here's some specific indicators of morale. Response to shortages, care of equipment and weapons, rumors, excessive quarreling, you brought that one up earlier with the football team. Personal hygiene, standards of military courtesy, personal appearance, personal conduct.

• 1:16:35Jocko Willink?

  So like the, the response, how do they respond with, hey, we're almost out of water? Oh my God, we're all gonna die. Uh, you know the movie Aliens?

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 1:16:43Jocko Willink?

  We're all gonna die out here, man, right? Cause there's a shortage of whatever. We don't know if any backups coming, we're all gonna die. That's bad morale.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  Bad morale is essentially the beginning of the end. So it's kind of like the end of the rope kind of a thing. Of course you can turn it around, but bro, it's the beginning of the end. Well, no. It's kind of a critical factor.

• 1:17:06Jocko Willink?

  When there's, when there, it says this here when they're running, when you're running low on whatever, on, on equipment or food or water, it says, "The squad with high morale and strong unit cohesion will divide what is available and become an even stronger outfit because of it. The unit that does not have this quality is not acting cohesively as a team and will disintegrate quickly."

• 1:17:28Jocko Willink?

  Failure to properly maintain equipment and weapons indicate that a Marine does not care is becoming excessively fatigued or has lost all discipline. On the other hand, if you fail to provide the means to keep your Marines gear properly maintained,

• 1:17:44Jocko Willink?

  you can erode their morale. You got rumors, clearly, there's a lack of information. You, you, you need to tell your team what's going on, otherwise they're gonna make it up and it's not gonna be good.

• 1:17:59Jocko Willink?

  Cooperation, mutual trust and confidence in one another's ability can be adversely affected when your Marines quarrel amongst themselves. Excessive quarreling is a sign that something is wrong and must be fixed. I was gonna say, this is like a chicken or an egg thing.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Like, when things start going bad, people start to argue. And when people start to argue, things start going bad. I guess it's not, it's a downward spiral. I don't know which one starts first, chicken or the egg. But when you start hearing people arguing amongst themselves, you're gonna have problems. And it's not gonna get better.

• 1:18:36Jocko Willink?

  Keeping it, you know, keeping it clean. As far as hygiene goes.

• 1:18:44Jocko Willink?

  Says regardless of how miserable the circumstances may actually be, we must do what we can to make conditions habitable.

• 1:18:51Jocko Willink?

  It talks about this. Standards of military courtesy units that have pride and confidence in their leaders maintain high standards of military courtesy at all times. Changes show that poor discipline and lack of respect may indicate low morale.

• 1:19:08Jocko Willink?

  Keeping it professional. It's interesting that they talk about

• 1:19:14Jocko Willink?

  standards of military courtesy. But if you want to translate that to the civilian world, you want to translate it to your family, it's how you treat each other. Cause sure, in the Marine Corps salute means, you know, I respect you or calling you sir or whatever, staying attention, all those things. But when you're a civilian,

• 1:19:31Jocko Willink?

  if you want to

• 1:19:34Jocko Willink?

  keep your team's morale high, even when things are going sideways, you don't yell at your team, you treat them with respect, you ask them what their ideas are, you know, like that's what you do. So treating people with respect is a way to maintain high morale.

• 1:19:50Jocko Willink?

  It says this about personal conduct, moodiness, sullenness, quiet withdrawal, or any sudden unexplainable change in one of your Marines' behavior may indicate that something is wrong and there's cause for concern. That's the way you're acting. Now, listen, does that mean you want to be Pollyanna? And have a big smile on your face, "Hey, guys, we're about to be overrun. Yay." Like, no, that's not what we're talking about. "Hey, I'm gonna have to fire a bunch of people from our company." No. But going into that, listen, it's interesting that they say this, sullenness and quiet withdrawal and moodiness.

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  So, none of those say be happy. They don't say that. None of them say jump for joy. But if you're acting sullen, if you withdraw, if you have an unexplained change in your behavior. Man, being consistent is so important from a leadership perspective. That's why, you know, I was getting interviewed a little while ago and they were asking me about resiliency. And I kind of said that, this was Travis Mannion's sister, Ryan. And she's got a podcast about resiliency and I was on it. And she was asking me about resiliency and I was like, "Hey, I don't think too much about it." And I think it's a little bit natural for me to be resilient.

• 1:21:17Jocko Willink?

  And I shouldn't have said natural, or maybe I didn't say it, but that's the feeling I get. But what I ultimately said was, "Listen, I feel like I'm fairly resilient because I don't have low lows. And the reason I don't have low lows is because I don't have high highs." I'm not getting all excited, "Yay!" No, I'm not doing that. But I'm also like, "Oh, no, I'm not doing either one of those two things." I'm staying in a limited emotional box where I'm not getting too crazy with a victory and I'm not getting too crazy with a defeat. So I think that lines up very well with this. If you're, if you, if you're the person that shows how happy you are, everybody's used to that. And now when you start being sad, they're gonna go, oh geez, Echo is all bummed out. Something's wrong.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, or even not as happy. Like if, you know, these guys were super fired up and then, you know, something cool happens and then they're like, yeah, right on. And they're not as fired up. You're like, oh, something's wrong. Even though they essentially express happiness, just not enough happiness. You ever, um, kind of back to the, the, um, professionalism and, you know, they're talking about in the military, like, okay, so, uh, what, what does your wife call you normally? Darling?

• 1:22:28Jocko Willink?

  Darling.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Not by your name, huh?

• 1:22:30Jocko Willink?

  Not generally.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:32Jocko Willink?

  Barely ever, actually.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, mine either. And I don't even really call her by her name that much. It's some other stuff. We don't have to go into it, but.

• 1:22:39Jocko Willink?

  I don't want to hear them.

• 1:22:42Speaker 01

  Sometimes if I, if I call her by her name, she'll be like, don't call me by her name. Like kind of half joking, you know, cause it kind of sounds.

• 1:22:48Jocko Willink?

  But also, what if, what if she, what if you were downstairs and she was like, Echo?

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:22:53Jocko Willink?

  You know something's wrong.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  Or if, if we're going through some things or in some sort of a, almost like an argument or whatever, like, yeah, she won't, she'll.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  Thankfully, it's been multiple, multiple, multiple years since anything like that. But even then, let's say you're on bad terms with your wife and usually she calls you, I don't know, darling, babe, whatever they call, we call each other. And then they call you your name. You kind of, it's like a little assault on your side, like, kind of like, oh, there's something wrong. So when morale is down, boom, you kind of, that part breaks down a little bit.

• 1:23:25Jocko Willink?

  It's a little bit disrespectful.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, to call you by your name.

• 1:23:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So that's, that's it. That's why consistency.

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:33Jocko Willink?

  And keeping yourself in check and making sure that you're not allowing these emotions to creep out.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Jocko Willink?

  And cause people to look at you and think, oh, Echo is really concerned right now. This, things are going bad.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  Echo's all besoiled right now. Things, that's what's going to spread.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Jocko Willink?

  That's going to affect the morale of everybody.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  What's with that, with calling someone who you know good by their legitimate name?

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  What that is, you know how like, okay, so in the family, you know, the old thing where if they call you like the parent calls the kid by their first and last name.

• 1:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  You know, that that means they're in trouble like that kind of stuff.

• 1:24:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Why is that?

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I think it's because of what we're saying right now.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:18Jocko Willink?

  I think it's like a step up in, in, in

• 1:24:22Jocko Willink?

  lack of affection.

• 1:24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like almost the opposite, you know, in a small, tiny way where it's like the better terms we're on, the more loose I'm going to be with what I call you. I'll call you more of like fun stuff, you know, I'll call you by a nickname or a fun name or a pet name, whatever you call it. And then when things are bad, okay, now you're kind of reduced to your legitimate name, your official name.

• 1:24:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, let me ask you this, tangential, but if you ever hear people when they use your name a lot when they're talking to you.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:52Jocko Willink?

  It's weird, right?

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  It is weird.

• 1:24:54Jocko Willink?

  It's like we're trying to establish a weird salesy type like thing where I know you. Like, you know, you know, Echo.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  Like, I don't think I've, other than saying good evening, Echo, I don't think I've ever said your name on this podcast because it's a little bit weird, right?

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, and even when you do, you say my first and my last name within which indicates like a small, like, it's like humor, like a joke. Yeah, exactly right. But even you'll be like you, Echo Charles, like it's a joke.

• 1:25:22Jocko Willink?

  You know where I do say some names on this specific podcast is if someone else is here and we're having a three way conversation. I might say like, well, if I was to say to you, hey, Mike, or I might say, well, that's right, you know, Fred. Cause I want to everyone that's listening to know that I was saying that to Fred.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's different than what you're talking about.

• 1:25:40Jocko Willink?

  It is different. It is, I've always, it seems a little bit strange. It seems like something you would learn at like a, at like a, a mastermind sales course. To like touch them on the shoulder and tell, say their name a bunch so they feel closer to you. It doesn't do that for me. If you're trying to sell me something, don't say my name because it's probably going to like send me the other direction.

• 1:26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not natural, like it doesn't feel natural at all, but some people, that's just how, that's just how they talk.

• 1:26:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I think that's because they've been ingrained to do that. I don't think it's normal.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, almost like it's like overly professional almost.

• 1:26:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's the thing, Echo, is when you're doing something, right?

• 1:26:21Speaker 01

  It's so weird. Kind of uncomfortable.

• 1:26:23Jocko Willink?

  It's so weird, right?

• 1:26:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:24Jocko Willink?

  It's weird, Echo.

• 1:26:29Jocko Willink?

  All right. So I'm glad I confirmed that.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:26:33Jocko Willink?

  It's weird. If you listen to podcasts, you can hear people do that sometimes. If you listen to podcasts, you'll hear someone saying, you know, and it's sort of like, that's kind of strange.

• 1:26:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, especially when it's when they're the only.

• 1:26:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're the only ones here. Echo.

• 1:26:50Jocko Willink?

  I just wore out that joke in five attempts.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  If you're scolding someone, then it then it rolls out.

• 1:26:56Jocko Willink?

  That's true. I bet you some of those scolding videos that we have of you and me, I probably use your name more often than not.

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  No, I think I'll use your name.

• 1:27:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh, really?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Cause you're not scolding, you're just trying to make fun.

• 1:27:06Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:27:06Speaker 01

  I think, I don't know, if I remember correctly.

• 1:27:10Jocko Willink?

  Appearances. If a marine begins to look sloppy, a behavioral problem may be the cause. Likewise, if conditions prevent your marines from washing, shaving, or obtaining clean uniforms for prolonged periods, morale can drop.

• 1:27:25Jocko Willink?

  This is one of those things where, again, in the business world, some, hey, here's our dress code. Hey, we got a presentation you're gonna get. Look sharp. Smart move. Smart move. Hey, and I can tell you, I'm not one of these people that is going out and getting whatever, a tailor to make my suit or whatever. In fact, I don't really like wearing suits at all. Sometimes fighters wear suits. Have you noticed that?

• 1:27:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. That's old school.

• 1:27:55Jocko Willink?

  Why is that?

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  The boxers.

• 1:27:56Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, no. I'm not talking, I'm not talking UFC.

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, but it kind of, or it felt, it feels like it came from the old school, the boxers, right?

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  I feel like I might be disconnected, like, and wrong, or whatever.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:09Jocko Willink?

  You know, like, I look at a, I look at a fighter and they're putting a suit and tie on to go to a press conference.

• 1:28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  I feel like in a million years, I I wouldn't have done that.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  But I do think there's kind of two camps on that. And then there's a rare few that are kind of in between where some guys, that's their jam. They wear suits because they're, because they're a quote unquote sophisticated professional. And that, or that's the image. And then there's guys like Nick Diaz, who's, you know, just as good, if not better than everyone, who will probably never wear a suit. So it's, I think there's two camps.

• 1:28:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's definitely two camps. I fall into Nate Diaz camp on that one. I was just going in a t-shirt to the press conference, probably showing up late.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could share that. But you're like that in real life too, though. Where, you know, you, you're probably gonna wear slippers or flip flops, as we call them here. And shorts and a shirt unless you have to wear something else.

• 1:29:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true. So watch out for that with your people.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  That's a, that's a kind of a classic thing too, though, right? Like even in the movies where it's like if they want to indicate visually that this guy has just let himself go. His morale is down. He's down and out, what his beard, unshaven. Yeah, his clothes, merriment, I'd be dirty like that kind of, you know.

• 1:29:25Jocko Willink?

  Uh, characteristics of motivation. Motivation answers the question, why do Marines fight? Motivation is based on a psychological factors such as needs, desires and impulses that cause a person to act for a Marine. Commitment and pride in the unit and the core is generally the basis for combat motivation. I was, when I was starting to read this chapter, I was like thinking about the fact that I always say motivation, no factor. Because motivation is a feeling, it's fickle, it comes and goes.

• 1:29:55Jocko Willink?

  And then I was thinking, okay, well, how, what are they, how are they going to talk about this? And there you go. And I've talked about this on the podcast. Motivation is why you're doing something and it's important to understand the why. A motivated Marine will do what needs to be done and will know the right thing to do. With effective leadership and attentive concern for maintaining high morale, motivation will also be high. However, motivation is much more than just an indicator of morale. It is a key element that must be understood by everyone in your squad. In combat, motivation has special significance to Marines.

• 1:30:30Jocko Willink?

  S. E. Smith's U. S. Marine Corps in World War Two provides an illustration of this motivation. Quote, "In a foxhole,

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  in the center of the tenuous line, he had done much to hold. PFC John Arons, an able company automatic rifleman, lay quietly, his eyes closed, breathing slowly.

• 1:30:54Jocko Willink?

  Arons was covered with blood. He was dying. Next to him laid a dead Japanese sergeant and flung across his legs, a dead Japanese officer. Arons had been hit in the chest twice by bullets and blood welled slowly from three deep puncture wounds inflicted by bayonets."

• 1:31:18Jocko Willink?

  Around his foxhole sprawled thirteen crumpled Japanese bodies.

• 1:31:26Jocko Willink?

  As Captain Louis W. Walt gathered errands into his arms to carry him to the residency, the dying man, still clinging to his BAR, said, "Captain, they tried to come over me last night, but I don't think they made it."

• 1:31:44Jocko Willink?

  "They didn't, Johnny," Walt softly replied. "They didn't."

• 1:31:58Jocko Willink?

  And then it goes on to say, "What will motivate your Marines to fight like PFC RNs? What causes them to have this measure of tenacity and the ability to continue to fight when others would give up?"

• 1:32:19Jocko Willink?

  Numerous historians, sociologists, and psychologists have studied behavior under fire in an effort to find out why we fight as we do, and explaining what motivates a Marine to persevere in battle, many experts have concluded that the following facts are significant: unit cohesion, tradition, commitment, aggression, patriotism, rewards and punishment, social identity.

• 1:32:42Jocko Willink?

  In the unit cohesion section,

• 1:32:47Jocko Willink?

  it says, "Cohesion is perhaps the most powerful motivational factor in combat. Common experiences and shared hardships stimulate and foster closeness among individuals as a unit. The result in a unit that is able to maintain tactical cohesion and achieve success in combat. If your Marines know their mission, it is their faith in you and their fellow Marines that will carry them over the top, charging into the teeth of the enemy."

• 1:33:16Jocko Willink?

  This is, I'll get asked a lot about, you know, how do you bring a team together? It's like, you gotta do hard things together. So it's one thing that's cool about the FTX program that we run. It's, it's challenging. It is mentally challenging. There's actually almost no physical challenge, so that's not what I'm talking about. It is mentally challenging. And you will, you will get put in situations where you have to make very tough decisions under pressure. And when you get to do it yourself and you watch someone else do it and they do a call or a bad call or a good call, it does definitely help out unit cohesion.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  I always thought or kind of came to the conclusion or whatever, that uh, the way you get close to somebody is to do hard things, like basically you have to go through the whole spectrum of things. Hard, easy, good and bad. And you go through all that together and still emerge without breaking up or, or not being friends or whatever. So a lot of times if you, you're forced in a situation with this, uh, what do you call when the interest is the same for everybody?

• 1:34:20Jocko Willink?

  Align.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Like aligned interest or, or common interest, common goal. They're kind of forced to be in the environment, so they go through the hard times, the fun times, they go through the whole spectrum of things. And a lot of times in the military and battle, they go through the really, really hard times. And then which kind of, you know, on the flip side, can precipitate really, really good times as well. You know, when you, when you're triumphant with the guy with, um, next to you, in hard times, that's a really, really good time. So if you have that consistently, boom, that bond. And same thing with like.

• 1:34:51Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, when you, when you started talking about good times, I was kind of like echoes being stupid. But then I thought about it, it's like, oh no, that's important. Like just hard times, cool, you're gonna forge one part of unity, but also like having fun and having good times is also a way that forms a certain part of the unity.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:10Jocko Willink?

  I think that a, a group that only has good times, you don't get tested.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35:14Jocko Willink?

  You gotta go through some hard shit too.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:16Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  And that's what it always felt like, where you gotta go through the whole spectrum of ups and downs, kind of together over, over a period of time. Even if you don't go through it over a period of time, if you get the whole spectrum, you'll have a closeness that's kind of hard to replicate, you know? But if you do it consistently, like for a long time. Yeah, you'd be, that's why brother and sister a lot of time, or like two brothers who grew up together like really close or whatever. Um, that's why it's like, oh, there's a that's a different kind of relationship because they're kind of like me and my brother were our twins. So we literally went through everything together. Literally. So like the first time of the whatever experience, the first time was the first time for both of us. You know, so like the opposite time, we wound up being really, really close.

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  But that was kind of like, that's where I'd always feel like, you know, you'd, I can go through an experience by myself. And then a thought that's going to be really close in my mind, like it'll, it won't be a lot of time will go by before I think, oh, I wonder what he would think about this, or I know what he would think about this, you know, or you know, like this boom, you know, like, and you get those kinds of thoughts with the people that you're super close to it.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And the, the harder the combat, the tighter the bond. Because also to your point, the harder the combat, the better the times are when you're not in combat anymore.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you kind of, you kind of stretch out that spectrum, right? So it's like more, it's deeper.

• 1:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Check. Uh, this is an important thing that we've covered on this podcast before. This is a quick quote. For brave men who do not know each other well, will not dare attack a lion. For less brave, but knowing each other well, sure of their reliability and consequently of mutual aid will attack resolutely. There is, there is the science of organizations of army, of armies in a nutshell. And that's from Battle Studies by Ardent DePique, who we covered on this podcast, Battle Studies. But that's such a unimportant thing to remember. He's like, that's, that's, that's the science of building an army. Working together. That's why at Echelon Front, we talk about building relationships.

• 1:37:23Jocko Willink?

  Cause if we have a relationship, if I have a relationship with three other people, we'll take down a lion. If I don't know these dudes, we're not, we're not, I'm not stepping forth. It's not happening.

• 1:37:34Speaker 01

  You ever watched the movie Speed?

• 1:37:36Jocko Willink?

  Speed, speed, speed.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Keanu Reeves and Sandra.

• 1:37:40Jocko Willink?

  I was on a bus or something. I never watched it. It looked really dumb.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  So there is a part at the end where they like, kind of, I don't know, fall in love for lack of a better way to put it. And they even say,

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  Can you edit that out for this podcast? I don't like talking about that.

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:37:54Jocko Willink?

  Love.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Anyway, they, they say, uh,

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  I think they even mentioned it earlier where you shouldn't get into a relationship based on extreme experiences.

• 1:38:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:38:08Speaker 01

  Because it's like whatever the reason or whatever. But that goes with kind of what you're saying because when you go through these crazy experiences, it brings you closer together.

• 1:38:17Jocko Willink?

  That's like the like, like Chaz in The Wedding Singer. When he starts going to funerals to pick up girls.

• 1:38:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:24Jocko Willink?

  That's. Oh, no, no, The Wedding Crashers. Wedding Crashers.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:27Jocko Willink?

  He says, uh, grief is the nature's most powerful aphrodisiac.

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  There you go. These extreme situations.

• 1:38:37Jocko Willink?

  Going through these extreme situations.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:38:41Jocko Willink?

  Tradition. Marine values and attitudes are stressed from the day, the first day the Marine Corps.

• 1:38:48Jocko Willink?

  And are constantly reinforced. We are told over and over again, a Marine never quits, a Marine never surrenders, a Marine never retreats, Marines never leave the dead and wounded. These are values become ingrained into the very being of every Marine.

• 1:39:01Jocko Willink?

  From the last parallel, Corporal Martin Russ, USMC. The average Marine, if such a condition exists. Is definitely not the lad represented on the recruiting poster. More likely, he is a small, pimple faced young man who.

• 1:39:18Jocko Willink?

  Because it has been so skillfully pounded into him in boot camp, believes he can lick the world.

• 1:39:26Jocko Willink?

  Commitment. There's a quote in here about commitment. Men take a kind of hard pride in belonging to a famous outfit, even when doing so exposes them to exceptional danger. This is an essential element in the psychology of shock troops.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Talks about aggression. Compassion for the enemy and non combatants is a characteristic that is not uncommon among Marines in the battlefield. However. You must recognize that an aggressive fighting style is our trademark. Seek to maintain this determination and initiative as long as necessary to accomplish the mission and overcome the enemy. Understand that you will bolster the confidence of your Marines by accomplishing the mission at the lowest possible cost in casualties.

• 1:40:12Jocko Willink?

  Patriotism, every Marine must be convinced of the rightness of their country's cause. Rewards and punishment, the purpose of our system of rewards in combat is intended to reflect the recognition of Marines as warriors. This recognition of heroic efforts and sacrifices on behalf of your fellow Marines is an important leadership responsibility. When it comes to combat, there's no amount of pay or any medal that can adequately award any Marine for risking their life to achieve a particular objective. When Marines who have experienced combat are questioned, they tend to respond that their greatest fear was being perceived as less than adequate in the eyes of their fellow Marines.

• 1:40:52Jocko Willink?

  Their only reward was the respect, praise, and recognition which came from within their unit.

• 1:41:02Jocko Willink?

  That is no doubt. I've talked many times about what reputation means in the SEAL teams. And that's where you get that reputation. How do you behave in tough situations, in combat situations, even in tough training situations?

• 1:41:20Jocko Willink?

  Social factors affecting Marines' primary group, which is their fire team squad or platoon, are significant aspects of achieving combat motivation. Marines will often identify with friends who are from their same home state or same geographical area. This helps build unit cohesion.

• 1:41:41Jocko Willink?

  So getting the guys to work together.

• 1:41:45Jocko Willink?

  This section, discipline, esprit, decor, and proficiency are significant factors that you as a leader can develop in your Marines. These along with morale and motivation will influence your success in combat. Man, when you're skilled at something and you practice and you train, it just helps in every aspect. Proficiency is so important and obviously, discipline.

• 1:42:10Jocko Willink?

  And I said earlier that we're going to get into a little bit of this. Discipline is the willful obedience of orders. Discipline is exemplified by a situation where the individual has been taught to sacrifice their interests for the common good and respond from a sense of duty which is more important than individual rights or wants. Now, what you and I talk about a lot in here.

• 1:42:33Jocko Willink?

  The common good, this is, you know, discipline, like self-discipline is when you're gonna do something that's good. Not for you right now, not the donut, not the sleeping in, but what's good for the common good.

• 1:42:47Jocko Willink?

  That takes discipline. When the moment comes for a leader to send a Marine in harm's way, there's not room for discussion. Discipline ensures prompt accomplishment of assigned missions and spawns initiative, which guides your Marines' actions in the absence of order.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  Morale and motivation provide the foundation for discipline. More than being a simple mechanism for maintaining order, discipline is the essential condition within a unit that allows to overcome the extreme fear and fatigue of combat. And this is why, this is the part that I wanted to get into. Uh, the three types of discipline. First off is self-discipline. Self-discipline is the most important quality to develop in your Marine. Self-discipline means that the individual has a sense of personal duty to their unit, fellow Marines, and nation. This type of discipline will hold your Marines sturdy against anything the enemy may throw at them because they have

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  a firm inner conviction that they will not let their fellow Marines down. That's what we want. That's the most important quality to develop in Marine is self-discipline. And then it goes to unit discipline. Unit discipline is the behavior that results from the expectations of Marines in your squad. It arises from a form of peer pressure where a Marine knows that for an individual to belong, one must uphold the standard. This quality of discipline will hold the Marines steady while in the company of other fellow Marines.

• 1:44:20Jocko Willink?

  And then it gets to this, and this is why I wanted to cover this. Imposed discipline.

• 1:44:26Jocko Willink?

  Imposed discipline, this is probably the most important part of this book. Imposed discipline is behavior that is motivated primarily by your immediate supervision. Do it because I said so. It is a direct order to perform. Now, you've heard me say this many times. We don't want imposed discipline and we definitely want to impose things on people. But here's the Marine Corps saying, you know, hey, do it because I said so. And then they continue. This discipline influences your Marines to accomplish unpleasant or inconvenient tasks. And then it says this, under extreme combat conditions, you may be required to resort to imposed discipline.

• 1:45:12Jocko Willink?

  It says the words required to resort to it. This is not what we want to be doing.

• 1:45:18Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, it's under extreme combat conditions. So if you're working in a finance company, or you're working on a construction site, or you're working on a manufacturing line and you think as a leader, you better use imposed discipline. You're probably wrong.

• 1:45:40Jocko Willink?

  And then it gives the example, this was the only way that Captain Barrow was able to force the necessary actions on the ridge in Korea that we referred to in the unit study. Imposed discipline lacks the permanence of unit discipline and the special strength of self-discipline. So imposed discipline is like a last resort in extreme situations.

• 1:46:04Jocko Willink?

  Your Marines demonstrate discipline through initiative, self-reliance, self-control and obedience.

• 1:46:12Jocko Willink?

  The Marine Corps style of warfare requires intelligent leaders with a penchant for boldness and initiative down to the lowest level. It is the Marines' duty to take initiative as the situation demands. I like the fact that they start off by talking about initiative. Because that's what discipline, you have to act or not act. But it's what you personally do. It's your own personal initiative.

• 1:46:36Jocko Willink?

  Talks about self-reliance, talks about self-control.

• 1:46:41Jocko Willink?

  Obedience. Self reliance and self control, pretty straightforward. Obedience is when your marine responds without question. When all of your Marines respond to your orders as a team, a sense of unit is created whereby everyone recognizes that their role is to contribute to something more important than one, any one individual. An unorganized mob of Marines is useless in a crisis. The strength to overcome the extreme crisis of combat is greatly affected by your squad's ability to respond as a team. A squad is capable of dealing with the chaos of combat only insofar as the individual Marines' actions are part of the total squad effort.

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  We obedience, right? This is, this is, I'm surprised they didn't go a little bit more into, you know, these situations where you're in extreme scenarios. Because otherwise obedience is what is occurring. Not because you have given direction, but because everyone knows what we're trying to accomplish. That, that, that's how a good unit should work. A good unit should work, we get into an enemy contact and everyone knows what to do, not because they're obeying, but because they know what to do, they know why it's important.

• 1:48:05Jocko Willink?

  When you're at a company and you've got to keep quality up on your manufacturing line, people are not going to do it because you told them to do it and they are obedient. And that's why it's happening. No, they've got to understand that the quality of the product is what supports the reputation of the companies, which is why people are buying the product, which is why we get to make the product, which is why the product is selling, which is why I have a job. When they understand all those things, you don't need to tell them what to do, they're doing it, they get it. So that's the kind of obedience that we want, not obedience that's coming from an external, but obedience because we understand what the mission is.

• 1:48:45Jocko Willink?

  I think that's an important facet there that didn't really come out in their explanation.

• 1:48:56Jocko Willink?

  Got a little section on esprit de corps.

• 1:49:01Jocko Willink?

  The unit spirit and character of the group.

• 1:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Not the individual, this is us working together. Some indicators. Expressions from Marines that show enthusiasm and pride for the unit, good unit reputation among other units. Strong competitive spirit, willingness to participate by the members in unit activities, pride in the history and traditions of the unit, those are all good things. Here's some ways to improve this esprit de corps. Be the symbol of fighting spirit you want to develop. Start new people off right by ensuring them they're welcome into and reception by the unit. Train your Marines as a team. Develop the feeling that the company

• 1:49:43Jocko Willink?

  as a team must succeed.

• 1:49:46Jocko Willink?

  Instruct them in history and traditions. This is something I explain a lot to companies. You've got to explain what's happening, where you've been, what you've achieved.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  Use appropriate, proper ceremony slogans and symbols. Use competition wisely to develop a team. Try to win in every competition. Use decorations and awards properly. It says this, make your Marines feel they are invincible, that no power can defeat them and that the success of corps and country depends on them and the victory of their unit. Now, we've got to be careful because we've got to watch out for arrogance. Right? Invincible is a strong word.

• 1:50:34Jocko Willink?

  Invincible is definitely a strong word. Proficiency.

• 1:50:40Jocko Willink?

  This, I mentioned this is so powerful because I think it helps your confidence so much. Proficiency is advanced in knowledge and skill.

• 1:50:50Jocko Willink?

  The example they give here is, once again, from the book Battle Leadership by Captain Von Schell. "In peace, we should do everything possible to prepare the minds of our soldiers for the strain of battle. We must repeatedly warn them that war brings with it surprise and tremendously deep impressions. We must prepare them for the fact that each minute of battle brings with it a new assault on nerves. As soldiers of the future, we should strive to realize that we will be faced in war with many new and difficult impressions, dangers that are thus foreseen and already half overcome."

• 1:51:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna say that again. "Dangers that are foreseen are already half overcome." You know what's coming, man. You're already halfway there. Already halfway there.

• 1:51:38Jocko Willink?

  In preparing for combat, of course, they go through a section, "What do you need to know?" Friendly capabilities, enemy capabilities, the face of combat, and mental and physical fitness. This is straight Sun Tzu, right? Know your enemy, know yourself. Friendly capabilities. This is not limited to knowing yourself and your job. This includes knowing your Marines' equipment and weapons. Know the techniques of combat and the tactics that are used by a unit of your size. You gotta know the same thing about the enemy, enemy's capabilities, their weapons, their troops, their equipment.

• 1:52:17Jocko Willink?

  The face of combat.

• 1:52:20Jocko Willink?

  Says, "The goal of this course is to help you understand the battlefield environment. Although that is not possible to realistically recreate the battlefield in training, you and your squad should learn as much as possible about the actual conditions of combat during training." You know, this is something I wrote about this in, I can't remember if I wrote about it, in Leadership Strategy and Tactics, or in the Forward to About Face, but about how I knew, when there was no war, I knew there was like a gap that I was missing. I knew there was something I didn't understand. You know, the big, the big mesh. There was some element, and I just tried to read to try and understand it. So I could figure out what I was looking at, what I was, what I was in for.

• 1:53:07Jocko Willink?

  Building and maintaining morale and motivation in combat.

• 1:53:14Jocko Willink?

  Belief in the mission is the source of morale and motivation. That's why in Extreme Ownership, we wrote a chapter called "Believe." You've gotta believe in what you're doing.

• 1:53:26Jocko Willink?

  You've gotta believe in what you're doing. Developing this belief not only involves developing your squad's confidence that the job must and will be accomplished, it also involves a deeper understanding that their individual sacrifices and efforts are necessary and relevant.

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  What do you gotta do? Instill confidence.

• 1:53:48Jocko Willink?

  Leadership from the front is particularly effective. Your Marines will always respond when they see that you are willing to take the same risks as them.

• 1:53:56Jocko Willink?

  Make sure you're assigning people to the right jobs. Make sure they get rest, food, quarters. Remember, four hours a night, you know, we gotta keep that going. And it says here, "Aside from providing food, rest, and quarters, you must also be concerned with attention to duty. You must check to see that positions and weapons are properly located, equipment and weapons are maintained, and that you attend to the numerous other details that make an effective combat unit. This requires that you have discipline and develop a habit of training and critiquing so that lessons learned do not have to be re-learned."

• 1:54:38Jocko Willink?

  Maintaining morale and motivation.

• 1:54:45Jocko Willink?

  Know your Marines. Who's married, who has kids, how many siblings they have, what special circumstances are they under?

• 1:54:56Jocko Willink?

  Provide a break-in routine. This is sort of attached to what I was saying earlier, but I like this example. "When possible, provide an opportunity for relaxation and recreation. At Contheen in 1967, during a prolonged period under artillery enemy fire, one unit held a tobacco spitting contest, judging accuracy and range."

• 1:55:16Jocko Willink?

  Everyone participated in some humorous situations resulted. So that's a good one.

• 1:55:22Speaker 01

  Isn't tobacco, have you ever seen tobacco, there's like actual tobacco competitions? Have you ever seen that before?

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  No, I have not. What do you do spit?

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that what they just said, uh, accuracy and range. Like they'd, I remember that, I remember this.

• 1:55:36Jocko Willink?

  Accuracy and range.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  That there, there's like little techniques to do it though. So one, like there's a, what do you call it, split finger technique or like you do some, some thing. Uh, it was weird. It was odd.

• 1:55:46Jocko Willink?

  It was hells huh?

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was kinda gross, but I remember that being a thing.

• 1:55:51Jocko Willink?

  Check. There's a section here. And it's, this is again, how to maintain morale and motivation. This is probably one of the most important things.

• 1:56:02Jocko Willink?

  Include subordinates in the decision-making process whenever possible. Again, Leif and I wrote about this. You never have all the answers and some of your Marines may have good ideas. Listening to your Marines is not required to use their ideas.

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  But it will improve their morale to know that you are willing to listen to them. And by the way, they're gonna listen to you more.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  They're going to listen to you more.

• 1:56:30Jocko Willink?

  Maintaining discipline.

• 1:56:34Jocko Willink?

  Crucial elements, health. Check the physical condition of your Marines. Foot inspections, changes in clothing. Hygiene enforcement. Overall personal cleanliness must be continuous. Proper care for cuts, blisters, minor wounds, rashes and other conditions. Directly reflect a unit's level of discipline. A unit's health discipline or lack of will affect its ability to fight. Man, check on your people.

• 1:56:58Jocko Willink?

  Make sure the weapons and gear is maintained appropriately.

• 1:57:05Jocko Willink?

  Make sure that people are staying in the game. Make sure they're keeping their helmets on and their, their weapon close at hand, all that stuff.

• 1:57:15Jocko Willink?

  That's all important for discipline. Just like treating people with respect, maintaining that military courtesy. Rehashes on that. Combat may not require spit and polish, but it does not remove you from the obligation that you have toward your seniors. Discipline is what separates your squad from a mob of armed civilians.

• 1:57:38Jocko Willink?

  Like that.

• 1:57:41Jocko Willink?

  Gotta like that. And building esprit de corps.

• 1:57:47Jocko Willink?

  Marines are competitors. Whatever the event or sport, they like to be challenged and they like to win. If you engage your Marines in competition against another unit, your Marines will band together to overcome the challenge, which will build esprit de corps. It's so good to have competitions. Whatever you're doing, you got a sales team, let's get some sale teams competing. You got competition on your manufacturing line. Let's you can have the most squared away workspace in the office. Let's you can have the most squared away job site at the construction company. And let's judge it. High standards come from teaching your Marines and then consistently correcting them. It's a bit strong when I read that, like dude, you don't want to be constantly correcting everyone.

• 1:58:32Jocko Willink?

  I guess it says consistently, consistently correct, even that, I'm gonna back off a little bit. I'm gonna focus on what matters, but I'm gonna pay attention if there's some slack happening, not gonna let it get out of control, but don't, don't expend a ton of leadership capital on that. Don't, don't let that happen.

• 1:58:54Jocko Willink?

  Foster team thinking as a leader, your squad consists of three fire teams, each with its own personality and capability.

• 1:59:02Jocko Willink?

  During platoon or squad training, have your fire teams compete against one another. Let the losing fire teams do the winners clean up, like those are the kind of things. Good to go.

• 1:59:15Jocko Willink?

  Talks about.

• 1:59:20Jocko Willink?

  When you train, train for the conditions of combat. This is something that's important is the way you do, the way you train.

• 1:59:30Jocko Willink?

  Impacts everything that you do and, and you'll, you'll mimic what you do in training with everything that you do. So for instance, we, we had rules when I was running trade at like as soon as. We rolled out of the gate, one of these platoons rolled out of the gate, it was a tactical mission. And so there was no like, oh, hold on a second. We, you know, we got a flat tire. No, it's like you got a flat tire. You're changing that thing. It's tactical. You got some word to pass, do it tactically. There's a vehicle gets stuck. Hey, hold on, we got, no, no, no. It's freaking tactical.

• 2:00:06Jocko Willink?

  So that, that's how you keep that. And even like a resupply. Oh, we need more water. We just don't walk up to the freaking water buffalo and start filling our canteens. No, you figure out a place to resupply. You set up a resupply.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  When you say it's tactical, like what it's not like a nonchalant scenario kind of thing like. Kind of like it's, you stay disciplined with the way you.

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  Stay disciplined. There's all kinds of opportunities when you're doing that type of training to just. To just like, okay, well, it's kind of go admin.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 2:00:41Jocko Willink?

  Matter of fact, we used to say that, hey, don't go admin right now.

• 2:00:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's almost like you're pausing the actual training, but you're saying, no, this is still part of the training. The training is still on.

• 2:00:52Jocko Willink?

  And you know what? The trade at guys, my guys influenced that. So if my guys were coking and joking, it would, it would immediately, well, not immediately. In a lot of cases, it would transfer over to the platoon. So if you got your, if your trade at guys are like shooting the shit. Because we're not part of the platoon that's supposed to being tactical, it, it, it like spreads. So we would all act like we would be tactical.

• 2:01:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:23Jocko Willink?

  There's so many.

• 2:01:26Jocko Willink?

  I have a little moment of memory because JP and I were out on an FTX and in the FTX we do at Echelon Front, we use. This high speed laser tag system, which is really cool. But in trade at a lot of time we use paintball or simunition, which is shooting paint rounds. And so one of the things that you could do as an instructor is. As a like, let's say a platoon's walking down the street or they're walking down a hallway. And I was grading them or watching them. I would go up and sort of like cover my face and kind of crouch down as if I was about to get shot with paintballs. And you'd see like the the platoons were so hyped, like you could see they're just instantly going to full alert mode. Cause they think they're about to get shot.

• 2:02:11Jocko Willink?

  And yeah, we'd have like, I'd have like a little like, uh, put my hand up over my face. Just to kind of hide from the impact of this ammunition.

• 2:02:19Speaker 01

  And you do that one like the training is not going on kind of a thing? Or when would you do that?

• 2:02:25Jocko Willink?

  Let's say a platoon is walking down a hallway.

• 2:02:27Speaker 01

  During a training exercise?

• 2:02:28Jocko Willink?

  And and they, of course, there's a thought in their mind like, hey, we might get shot at right now. But when they see me covering up my face and covering up like my groin with my hand. Cause I don't want to get shot.

• 2:02:40Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  Or if they see JP like holding his face and putting his hand over his over his crotch, cause he didn't want to get shot. When as soon as they see that out of the corner of their eye, they're like, oh, it's coming. Cause you know, we're a trade at, we know what's coming.

• 2:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're the instructors. You're not, okay, okay, gotcha.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  Uh, there is actual like pranks on YouTube. I said, I don't really condone the pranks, but you can watch them on YouTube where people will do that kind of stuff. Where just in public, like the people just in public, like they'll

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  like cover themselves, just like, like something might be coming or something like that. Yeah. And then and watch the people reacting. For sure. Exact same way. So it seems like an element of nature there where it's like, yeah, of course.

• 2:03:20Jocko Willink?

  And then you, it's not just an element of nature at trade deck, cause you are probably about to get shot.

• 2:03:28Jocko Willink?

  But that's important as a trainer that you you maintain that high level of professionalism and you can't be coking and joking when you expect the platoons to be tactical and you're sitting around like an idiot. Uh, there's an example in here from.

• 2:03:42Jocko Willink?

  Chesty Puller from the book Marine, which we covered on the podcast. Bad news only increased the tempo of Puller's training. He cornered Colonel Pedro de Ball, the great gunner who commanded the 11th Marines. And he said, Colonel, you'll be starting artillery training next week. I want you to let me know when you'll fire. I want to get my troops under it as often as I can. Every day afterward, the men of 17 were in the field and the 11th Marines were firing. Shells streamed overhead until the whoosh of flying metal became as familiar as rifle fire. There were many bursts nearby, but no accidents. Puller was the only battalion with such training. He's just taking his guys out, getting them conditioned to, well, to freaking bombs going over your head. So, good stuff.

• 2:04:27Jocko Willink?

  And the last little section here that just talks about fitness, physical and mental fitness. Combat is physically grueling. The demands made on your squad are going to be extreme and vary with the environment in which you are operating. Routine physical training in Camp Lejeune or Camp Pendleton is not going to prepare your Marines for the oppressive heat and humidity of Okinawa or the extreme cold of Norwegian winter. Demanding but creative combat oriented physical training will serve as a better way of getting your squad into shape. And then it says, mental fitness. Map exercises, tactical exercises without troops and professional reading all help to prepare you and your Marines for decision making in combat.

• 2:05:11Jocko Willink?

  These forms of training are not exclusive to officers and senior NCOs. They're a way of practicing warfighting intelligently without having to bring your entire squad into the field. And you do get better at decision making. You do. I would got to see that all the time in training and I still get to see it with, with leaders that we work with at Esalen Front. They get better at taking a step back. They get better at detaching, they get better at analyzing things and they get better. So, that, and also that mental and physical fitness that we're talking about is not just for you as an individual, it's for your teams. That's what it's for. And if you're a leader, you're responsible for your teams.

• 2:05:54Jocko Willink?

  And that means whether you're working in business, whether you're working in the military, whether you're a first responder, or whether you are a mom or a dad, because you've got a family and you're responsible for the physical and mental fitness of your troops.

• 2:06:11Jocko Willink?

  So there you go.

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  And I think this manual reinforces the fact that combat is like life and it's like life is just amplified and intensified because obviously there's more at stake. But the lessons apply, the discipline, the mental and physical fitness. Telling the truth so we're not getting rumors, leading from the front, confronting your fears, supporting other people, having discipline.

• 2:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Not imposing discipline on your team. Asking your team questions, letting them come up with a plan. All these things are in here. Universe, universal lessons for being a better combat leader and really universal lessons for being a better human being.

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of which, Echo Charles, we're trying to be better human beings across the board.

• 2:07:03Speaker 01

  Yes, we are. We're on the path on the program. That's where we are. I don't like saying on the program that as much because it indicates that like it's kind of this unique like you're on the program versus you're you're off the program like you don't like you don't necessarily have to be on the program the whole time. The path is just a way. It's the way. So we're all on the path. We're working out, reading, we're listening. Listening more than we're talking, hopefully generally speaking.

• 2:07:29Jocko Willink?

  We hope so.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:07:30Jocko Willink?

  We hope so.

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  Through that path, you will need supplementation or it'll, I'll put it this way, it'll benefit you a lot. You'll be, you'll be that much better off on this path because it's not always easy. Trust me, I know. So yes, so let's start with energy drinks. If you're into energy drinks, got good news. We've got a healthy energy drinks called Discipline Go.

• 2:07:50Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of unique, that's a unique thing, by the way. A healthy energy drink doesn't exist except for right here.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  There you go. Yep. True story.

• 2:07:58Jocko Willink?

  There's other people that are like, oh, ours is healthy, but we put 350 milligrams of caffeine into it.

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:05Jocko Willink?

  It's not healthy. You can't call that healthy. Can't put a label on it that calls it healthy. You can't put sugar in there and say it's healthy. You can't put chemicals in there and call it healthy. That doesn't work. That's not the truth.

• 2:08:15Speaker 01

  I agree, yeah, fully.

• 2:08:16Jocko Willink?

  So we have something legitimately healthy.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:08:20Jocko Willink?

  Good to go.

• 2:08:21Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Yep, Discipline Go, boom, many flavors, eight of them, if I'm not mistaken. I think mango is the best one, seems to be a

• 2:08:30Jocko Willink?

  Seems to be what the robots like as well.

• 2:08:32Speaker 01

  That's, you know, many, many entities like the mango, it's a good one, you know, but hey, choose for yourself. But the good news is there's options, what I'm saying as far as flavors go. Um, again, a healthy one, there's no real energy drink out there like it, and you look, you can have an energy drink. Boom.

• 2:08:48Jocko Willink?

  Get the upside.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  Yep. Also, Discipline Go is also a pre-workout, there's a pre-workout form, okay, for the last few days, I drink coffee, I want coffee, am I addicted to coffee? I don't think so.

• 2:08:57Jocko Willink?

  How many cups a day? One every day?

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  Two, like two.

• 2:09:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay, two every day?

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Maybe three, but it's all at once, like in the morning, whatever. Yeah, it's like a big coffee, whatever, I'd say almost every day, but if I don't have it, I'll get a headache or nothing like that. So I don't know that I'm addicted to coffee.

• 2:09:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so what's up with that pre-workout?

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  So, for the past three days, I have no coffee, but I worked out first thing in the morning. Actually, more than three days.

• 2:09:22Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:09:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, more than three days, um, but I work out in the morning, so I'm not gonna drink a coffee, then do the pre-workout, you know, it's like, it's kind of double, what do you call it, double dipping unnecessarily.

• 2:09:32Jocko Willink?

  So you're going straight to the pre-workout?

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  Straight to the pre-workout, one scoop and a half, by the way.

• 2:09:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  I don't get the weird, not, here's the thing, the jitter of the coffee, and it's not really a jitter for me anymore, it's more of just a little buzz kind of a thing. I, you don't get that from the pre-workout. I don't even mind the jitter, by the way, that buzz or whatever, I don't mind that, but I did notice that you don't get it, but I'll tell you what you do get. A kick-ass workout.

• 2:09:58Speaker 01

  So you don't even need the coffee, you see what I'm saying?

• 2:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:10:01Speaker 01

  So anyway, yeah, so you can use it as a pre-workout, again, it's powder, it's good, tastes just as good, makes it whatever you want, water, whatever. Um, but very good, this will help you on the path when you're working out. Trust me, you want to be that much more better off when you're on it, trust me, um, also, we got some protein. This is high-quality protein, yes, sir.

• 2:10:21Jocko Willink?

  This is dessert.

• 2:10:22Speaker 01

  Very, very good, if that means anything to you, if you want to choke down low-quality protein that tastes kind of junk. This is not the one for you, but this one is good.

• 2:10:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you're gonna want that gratification of just eating something that tastes delish.

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  You know the, you ever seen the meme or whatever it is? That's like, oh yeah, you can eat whatever, whatever. And it's like, oh, that face you make when now I want something sweet. Right?

• 2:10:48Jocko Willink?

  I haven't seen that meme.

• 2:10:49Speaker 01

  There's a meme and there's funny ways of presenting it, but it comes in all different forms or whatever. Um, but it always reminds me of that, you know, it's essentially usually someone who's like, let's say they overconsume, we'll say that and you know, I'm super full, but now I want something sweet, kind of a thing like that's a thing or whatever.

• 2:11:07Jocko Willink?

  Well, it seems to be a thing for me because I be drinking milk and even after I've, even after I have a straight up tomahawk steak.

• 2:11:14Speaker 01

  I think that's why it's a meme is a, you know.

• 2:11:17Jocko Willink?

  I'd say more, I would say

• 2:11:22Jocko Willink?

  sixty-five percent of the time. When I get done eating something that is like a steak. I still want to have a little bit of it.

• 2:11:32Speaker 01

  Little dessert.

• 2:11:33Jocko Willink?

  I want to have a little milk. I'm getting on the milk train.

• 2:11:35Speaker 01

  Do you drink milk just in general? Like, oh, I'll just have a cup of milk or glass of milk.

• 2:11:41Jocko Willink?

  It's gonna have milk in it. Cause why would I even, that's like just the, one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

• 2:11:46Speaker 01

  No, but you know, like, okay. So I'll tell you this.

• 2:11:48Jocko Willink?

  I guess if I was gonna, if I was gonna, let's say we had a little scenario happening where I was gonna have a chocolate chip cookie.

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:11:55Jocko Willink?

  Uh, then mo- milk with no milk would be in play.

• 2:12:00Speaker 01

  But you know how some people drink milk with dinner? That's the norm.

• 2:12:02Jocko Willink?

  I had a keto. Peanut butter and chocolate cake the other day. Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. Uh, very shockingly amazing, but I also had a little bit of milk, milk, regular milk, because it was, that was kind of the, that was what I was feeling.

• 2:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:12:20Jocko Willink?

  But the keto chocolate peanut butter cake. Credit was given.

• 2:12:27Speaker 01

  Sure. Trying to be, what's the purpose of keto chocolate peanut butter cake?

• 2:12:32Jocko Willink?

  Cause then you're not, eh, there's, there's, there's two things. Look, I could tell you that. Hey, you know, you want to stay in ketosis and all this stuff? I wasn't even in ketosis. When I did that, right? But here's the thing, when, if you, if right now, if you and I sat down and ate a piece of like whatever, just giant chocolate cake filled with sugar.

• 2:12:54Jocko Willink?

  I would feel like crap. Would you feel like crap? Maybe in two hours?

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Yes, probably.

• 2:12:59Jocko Willink?

  I would feel, I would feel like crap in like two hours, I'd be like, I am whatever. Uh, what's the word?

• 2:13:04Speaker 01

  Lethargic.

• 2:13:05Jocko Willink?

  Lethargic.

• 2:13:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:06Jocko Willink?

  Two hours or maybe even like, it probably doesn't even take an hour.

• 2:13:09Speaker 01

  Immediately.

• 2:13:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not immediately, but you're like, oh, I just doused my system with freaking sugar.

• 2:13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:16Jocko Willink?

  And you feel like crap.

• 2:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:19Jocko Willink?

  When you, when I had this and I've had several keto-ish desserts, right? And they're good. And then you go, I still feel pretty freaking good, you know? So that's why.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 2:13:34Jocko Willink?

  I'd rather have that. And I'm telling you, they're, they're kind of like milk. You know, you can have a milk, like it's a milkshake.

• 2:13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  You can have one of these and you're not like, oh, I still really want a real peanut butter freaking chocolate cake or whatever.

• 2:13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:13:48Jocko Willink?

  You know?

• 2:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, yes, certain things don't pair well though with like chocolate cake or keto chocolate peanut butter cake or whatever. Like, like it's too much chocolate. Like, let's say milk didn't exist, right? You, you eat a chocolate chip cookie. You drink some white milk.

• 2:14:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you don't want chocolate milk.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  No, it's too much. Doesn't pair well. Exactly right.

• 2:14:10Jocko Willink?

  The pairings.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  I pair some stuff every once in a while. Like, but here's the thing, my pairing is kind of off. When I eat chili, you know, like chili?

• 2:14:19Speaker 01

  Chili and rice, maybe some cornbread if we're lucky. Um, I like milk with chili. Is that, that's weird, right?

• 2:14:26Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 2:14:27Speaker 01

  That's the jam.

• 2:14:27Jocko Willink?

  It seems like a good call.

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  I think it's a good call. Yeah, for sure.

• 2:14:30Jocko Willink?

  When I was a kid, my mom would make spaghetti and I would just sit there at the table like the rest of the family would be done, gone for an hour and I'd be sitting there just eating spaghetti. And I would have a gallon of milk and just pouring glasses of milk and just pounding it.

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  So that's exactly what I was asking.

• 2:14:48Jocko Willink?

  When you're, I don't know, four, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, your stomach is literally a bottomless pit. You cannot eat enough.

• 2:14:56Speaker 01

  So true.

• 2:14:56Jocko Willink?

  You can't, my mom said I used to be like asleep in the car when I was like twelve or thirteen. And just wake up and be like, can we get food right now? And my mom said, if I didn't, if we didn't get over to a Mickey D's stat, then I'd start getting hangry.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  I understand fully and that is a thing that's weird that and you I never thought about that specifically but I do remember where like okay so I have this cousin Evan Evan Charles by the way um

• 2:15:28Jocko Willink?

  Evan E B A N

• 2:15:29Speaker 01

  E B O N if I'm mistaken

• 2:15:31Jocko Willink?

  Okay

• 2:15:32Speaker 01

  E B O N I forget how to spell it nonetheless Evan um he so he came to visit and we're the same age so he would but or he would maybe a year older than us I forget so I think same age and we're I remember because we're in like sixth or seventh grade but he was huge he's huge like tall dude super tall and he would drink a whole half gallon of juice you know the calf the whole thing he just drank it I was like bro like I can understand like that that juice is delicious and I said but man I'm not like I'm not ready for that that's a lot of juice to drink just in one go like that and that's a lot two years later I remember drinking a whole half gallon of juice

• 2:16:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause you were in the zone

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah well because I grew up to you know I don't think I was even his size but I was like at that time I was like yeah maybe fourteen fifteen years old so I drink the whole thing and I remember thinking oh yeah Evan was pounding this juice the same way but I get it now bro when you're thirsty you just want to pound that juice see what I'm saying but yes the and yes I am thinking your stomach is kind of like a bottomless pit you eat the whole thing of cereal

• 2:16:35Jocko Willink?

  Whole thing like it's nothing

• 2:16:37Speaker 01

  Jocko's over here just pounding milk

• 2:16:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  Nonetheless milk

• 2:16:42Jocko Willink?

  Milk

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  Put milk in there

• 2:16:44Jocko Willink?

  Get on the milk

• 2:16:44Speaker 01

  Yeah and there's a good a lot of cool little recipes you can add to the flavors if you want it's not necessary totally necessary but if you want you can you can enhance that milk if you like um also for your immunity and for things that you don't want to want to worry about try a workout try lift weights if you're into lifting weights

• 2:17:01Jocko Willink?

  Which you should be

• 2:17:02Speaker 01

  I think you should be

• 2:17:03Jocko Willink?

  Doctors think you should be

• 2:17:06Speaker 01

  I, from what I'm understanding more and more, uh, resistance training and weights, in my opinion, the best form of resistance training is the healthiest thing you can do for you barring, like ailments, you got heart things, situations, all this stuff. And of course cardiovascular has a lot of health benefits. But as far as like immunity, uh, balance of hormones, uh, cognitive, like all these benefits, resistance training. From what I understand has proven to be the best one.

• 2:17:32Jocko Willink?

  We're lifting, right? We're lifting.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  If you're lifting heavy and you're, let's say your joint, let's say your joints aren't all that, we'll say, or they're bothering you, whatever. Your body will not let you lift heavy. It'll try to be like, hey, let's not lift heavy.

• 2:17:47Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Yes. It's, it's bad.

• 2:17:50Speaker 01

  It is bad.

• 2:17:51Jocko Willink?

  It's bad. And it's your body telling you that. And it's your body actually saying, hey, look, we wish you could, but you can't.

• 2:17:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's kind of like.

• 2:17:57Jocko Willink?

  It's your body going, hey, you're old now. Just forget about it. Just give up. D O R.

• 2:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe not the D O R, but, but kind of along those lines, you see what I'm saying? Let's say the morale of your body tends to lower and lower when your joints. Immunity, all this stuff. Um, and it's a natural mechanism.

• 2:18:14Jocko Willink?

  Yesterday, my shoulders were, uh, it's weird. They, they were just sore, not like, uh, injured or anything like this, but like that motion. And not to mention, I've been surfing like every day for a couple, maybe like a week. And my shoulders are tired, sore, but not sore injured. Like, oh, I can't paddle.

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:18:36Jocko Willink?

  You know, so it's, there you go. And their shoulders got some miles on them, man. And we're just joint warfare it up.

• 2:18:42Speaker 01

  I understand. Yes. So for these ailments, joint warfare, super krill, that'll keep everything in the game. And then, then there's the vitamin D three and the cold war. That'll keep your immunity in the game, which you need. By the way, I don't know if you knew that, but strong immunity, strong, strong life, man. A hundred percent.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Boom.

• 2:19:00Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 2:19:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You can get this stuff, by the way. You can get this stuff at jogofuel.com. You can get this stuff. You get the drinks at Wawa. We got some other convenience stores coming online pretty quick. We're already in a bunch more, but I should put together a list of those. So yes, Wawa, you can get all the stuff at Vitamin Shoppe as well. Go in there if you want to try something out. There you go. If you subscribe to any of this stuff, which I recommend.

• 2:19:28Jocko Willink?

  Then you can subscribe on jockofuel.com and you'll get shipping for free. Cause look, let's face it, we're competing with big, there's a big company around I've heard of. That's shipping stuff for free. Even though they charge you money, kind of. They do actually, not kind of, they do charge you.

• 2:19:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, the membership.

• 2:19:43Jocko Willink?

  So free shipping, what does that really mean? Means I paid you money and you're shipping, was that free?

• 2:19:47Speaker 01

  Prepaid shipping.

• 2:19:48Jocko Willink?

  Who are we, what are we doing? Is that where we're at?

• 2:19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's where we're at. Yes, sir, it is.

• 2:19:54Jocko Willink?

  So we're not going to charge you to subscribe. You subscribe and you get free shipping. We're giving you a better deal than some of those other big companies.

• 2:20:02Speaker 01

  It's essentially just a recurring, it's not even like a paid subscription. It's discount subscription essentially. Boom, win-win.

• 2:20:10Jocko Willink?

  Good to go.

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  Good to go. Um, also, Origin USA, this is where you can get your American-made stuff. So jeans, boots, some athletic gear.

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  Durable goods. Brian's coming out with some good pants, bro. He had some, um, like, what color were they, like green, like whatever? He, he made a post, Pete or Origin.

• 2:20:34Jocko Willink?

  We got all kinds of stuff coming.

• 2:20:36Speaker 01

  Right, it said next, uh, print camo. And I think they're like camo jeans.

• 2:20:41Jocko Willink?

  We're, we've got stuff coming. We are, we are investing, look, when we say we're gonna, we've been. When we say this is rebuilding America and rebuilding manufacturing America. Does that mean when we make money, we go, oh, cool, we made money? Let's go, uh, you know, buy a freaking new Corvette.

• 2:21:01Jocko Willink?

  Right? No, we're not buying Corvettes.

• 2:21:04Speaker 01

  No, sir.

• 2:21:04Jocko Willink?

  Tell you what we're doing, we're buying more factory. We're buying more equipment. We're buying more material. We're reinvesting back, right back into this, this mission. So when you get a pair of jeans, thank you. Cause it's going to allow us to make more jeans, it's going to allow us to make. We're bringing out a whole line, Origin Hunt, you probably heard me talking about it on, on Joe Rogan. We got all that is in full swing. Full swing, getting that stuff designed, getting it, we're doing the test, various, of the various, um, layouts that we're using. So this stuff is coming.

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:21:40Jocko Willink?

  And it's going to be made in America, a hundred percent, that's what we're doing.

• 2:21:46Jocko Willink?

  So we appreciate the support. OriginUSA.com. We are, we, meaning you, listen to this right now. It's not just, it's not just us at the company. We can't, we can't rebuild manufacturing in America without the support of you. This is just won't, will not work. It will not work. If you don't believe in rebuilding America, then this thing fails. If you don't believe in bringing manufacturing back to America, this thing fails. When you support though, we're going to be unstoppable. And you know what? I'm willing to bet. Pete's willing to bet. In fact, we're betting the farm. We're betting everything. We're betting everything that America will come together.

• 2:22:28Jocko Willink?

  And, and help us bring manufacturing back to America. And listen, we are in an economic war.

• 2:22:37Jocko Willink?

  We are in an economic war with China.

• 2:22:42Jocko Willink?

  This is factually what's going on. We are in an economic war with China. And you and me and Origin, we are on the front lines of the economic war. We are the shock troops. So we appreciate the support. OriginUSA.com.

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  Some jujitsu stuff on there as well. Best gees in the world, literally the best gees in the world and kind of by far.

• 2:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Cause speaking of combat, you want to be in economic combat, we want to win. You also want to win on the mats of justice. So get yourself an Origin gi. I know there's a lot of them out there. A lot of people, if you're gonna look, if you're, if you're training jujitsu, which you should be, if you're not training jujitsu, start training jujitsu. And then get an Origin gi. Represent. Otherwise, again, you're, you might be winning the combat front on the mats, but now you're losing the economic war against China.

• 2:23:36Jocko Willink?

  Think about that. Like, oh, cool. I'm winning. I can beat, I can tap this person. Oh, but I'm, my nation is losing a war against another communist regime. Is that where you're at?

• 2:23:47Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA people.

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  Yep, it's true.

• 2:23:50Jocko Willink?

  Let's do it.

• 2:23:51Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 2:23:51Jocko Willink?

  Let's go. Bring it.

• 2:23:55Speaker 01

  Also, Jaco's Store, it's called Jaco Store. So you go to JacoStore.com. This is where you can get your shirts, hats, hoodies, some shorts on there. Discipline equals freedom. Represent while you're on this path.

• 2:24:10Jocko Willink?

  Stand by to get some.

• 2:24:11Speaker 01

  Stand by to get some.

• 2:24:11Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 2:24:12Speaker 01

  All day, good, all day. Also, there's a short locker. That's our subscription service. It's a good one. Some good designs on there. Good designs coming up. Got a Valentine's Day design.

• 2:24:23Jocko Willink?

  Dude, you gotta be kidding me.

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  It is not a Valentine's Day design.

• 2:24:25Jocko Willink?

  Unapproved.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  It's totally, here. So I shouldn't even have said Valentine's Day.

• 2:24:29Jocko Willink?

  No, you shouldn't have.

• 2:24:30Speaker 01

  But it does come out in February.

• 2:24:31Jocko Willink?

  Cause I'm mad about it now.

• 2:24:32Speaker 01

  There's the color red on it. How about that?

• 2:24:34Jocko Willink?

  Is the color red from blood dripping from a sword?

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  That's classified. Nonetheless, there's some good designs on there, past and present, of course. If you're a member, you can even buy, and you're like, hey, what about the past designs? Do I have access to those? Cause they, they come out once a month and they're kinda gone. They're not gone anymore. You do have access, once you're a member, you have access to the past designs. So boom, that's an added benefit and upgrade.

• 2:24:59Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 2:25:00Speaker 01

  Just by becoming a member.

• 2:25:01Jocko Willink?

  There you go. Subscribe to this podcast. Also, don't forget about the Unraveling Podcast. Just recorded another episode with DC. And we are also just set some things up so that we can start doing more of those. And we're also gonna do, we're gonna start talking about what's going on in the world a little bit more timely. So when things happen, look, we're not gonna chase the 24 hour news cycle, cause I'm not chasing the 24 hour news cycle, cause at least 80% of the 24 hour news cycle is bullshit. That doesn't matter. But there is 20% that is strategic, that needs to be talked about, that needs to be explored. And so DC and I are gonna start putting that out more

• 2:25:42Jocko Willink?

  often. So be ready for that. That's the Jaco Unraveling Podcast. We also have the Grounded Podcast. We have the Warrior Kid Podcast. We also have Jaco Underground, JacoUnderground.com. Again, we, look, we don't know what's gonna happen with all these platforms. There's massive influence in the tech world. That is, that is controlling the platform that you're listening to this right now. And we don't know what they're gonna do with it. We don't know if they're inserting advertisements into when we're trying to put out some word.

• 2:26:15Jocko Willink?

  We're trying to explain, you know, what's, what's going on in the world? So we have jockunderground.com. If we ever need it, it's there as a contingency. If you want to be there and you want to help us support, then go to jockunderground.com. It costs $8.18 a month. If you can't afford that, we still want to support you. So if you can't afford that, email [email protected] and we'll, we'll figure it out. But we appreciate your support there as well. We have a YouTube channel. And on the YouTube channel, Echo makes videos and then I usually get him the key element that makes his videos good. Look, they'd be good.

• 2:27:00Speaker 01

  Thanks, Jaco.

• 2:27:01Jocko Willink?

  They would be good, but usually there's one little element that needs to be added in there, you know? And I'm always here for you.

• 2:27:09Speaker 01

  That's where you come in.

• 2:27:09Jocko Willink?

  Assistant Director.

• 2:27:11Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. Thank you for that. Also, the video version of this podcast, by the way.

• 2:27:15Jocko Willink?

  If you want to see what T-shirt Echo Charles is wearing, then you can do that.

• 2:27:19Speaker 01

  Any moment. It's true. Um, yeah. So yeah, there you go. Also, Psychological Warfare, which is an album with Jaco on each track telling you how to get through your moment of weakness. This is an effective tool. It's a digital tool. So yeah, you can get that wherever MP3s are offered.

• 2:27:37Jocko Willink?

  Flipsidecanvas.com, Dakota Meyer, making awesome stuff to hang on your wall. Got a bunch of books. Final Spin, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, The Code, The Evaluation of Protocol, Discipline vs. Freedom Field Manual, Way of the Warrior Kid, Way of the Warrior Kid, one, two, three, and four. Get those books for every kid that you know. You will do so much to enhance their life and get them moving in the right direction. Mikey and the Dragons for the little kids. About Face by Hackworth. I wrote the foreword on the new version, Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin, who I also have a leadership consultancy with called Echelon Front, where leadership is the solution. Go to echelonfront.com if you want us to come and help you with your company. If you want

• 2:28:21Jocko Willink?

  to come to one of our live events, and you can also check out our online training, The Academy, called extremeownership.com.

• 2:28:32Jocko Willink?

  If you want to learn to take ownership of your life, of your business, of your family, of your fitness, of your health, then go to extremeownership.com. I'm on there two, three times a week live to interact. You want a question for me? Just go on there and ask it. Extremeownership.com. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, their families, Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization and she helps veterans and their families so much. Go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org if you want to donate or you want to get involved.

• 2:29:15Jocko Willink?

  And if you want any more of my lame lectures, or you need any more of Echo's disorienting declarations, you can find us on the interwebs, on the Gram, on the Facebook, on the Twitter, on Getter. Echo is at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. And to the Army, Navy, Air Force, and for this manual today, especially for the Marine Corps, thank you for being leaders, doing the toughest job in the world, and that is going into combat. And to our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, and all first responders, thank you for doing what you do

• 2:29:56Jocko Willink?

  here at home. Also, an incredibly tough job, which is keeping us safe. Thank you. And everyone else out there, think about all these factors, not just for leading Marines, but for leading yourself. And it says in the book, the self-discipline is the most important quality. It is your personal duty to yourself. And if you develop this discipline, then like a disciplined Marine, you will hold sturdy against anything that's thrown at you. Based on that firm inner conviction that you will not falter, you will not flounder, you will not fail.

• 2:30:41Jocko Willink?

  And to demonstrate that discipline, to demonstrate that discipline, you have to show self-reliance, you have to have self-control, and you have to have initiative.

• 2:30:56Jocko Willink?

  To make things happen. So take some initiative. Go out there and get after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.