Perfect Snacks: Bill and Leigh Keith

Bill and Leigh Keith had an extraordinary childhood, travelling the country in a school bus with their parents and ten siblings. Along the way, their dad fed them a homemade concoction of peanut butter, honey and supplements rolled into bite-sized snacks. When the family fell on hard times, the older siblings decided to sell their home and bet everything on turning their family recipe into a refrigerated energy bar. The family hand-rolled millions of bars and gave out samples at festivals and grocery stores in Northern California. They eventually got Perfect Bars into Whole Foods, Costco, and major retailers throughout the country, and in 2019, the company was acquired by Mondelēz International. This episode was researched and produced by Chris Maccini with music by Ramtin Arablouei. Edited by Neva Grant. Our engineers were Kwesi Lee and Ko Takasugi-Czernowin. You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis, and email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Sign up for Guy’s free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com/. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:46Guy Raz?

  build the prototype, analyze the market, maybe even come up with the idea, what separates the people who actually build something from everyone else? I don't have a clean answer yet, so I've been sitting with it with Claude. There's hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/hibt. We get support from U.S. Bank. A question I love asking founders. What's the one decision you almost didn't make? The one that changed everything? Because it's never the obvious stuff. It's never, I decided to start a company. It's the small, boring, Tuesday afternoon decision you barely remember making until you realize it's the reason everything after it either worked or didn't.

• 1:32Guy Raz?

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• 2:16Guy Raz?

  on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever,

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• 3:45Guy Raz?

  or bring a guest to the Delta Sky Club. Make every trip feel more rewarding with the car that upgrades your travel. Apply today at delta.com/cardsocial. Offer ends November 4, 2026. Minimum spending requirements and terms apply. Flights are fulfilled as flight certificates valid for Delta Comfort or Delta Maine to select domestic destinations. Book 21-plus days in advance. Up to $80 per person and taxes and fees apply. Other restrictions apply. When I pull up to a gas pump to fill my car, I'm not thinking about chemistry or engineering. I'm thinking about getting in, filling up, and getting on with my day. And it reminds me a little bit of the founders I talked to on this show, because the best

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• 5:18Guy Raz?

  During what I guess was a routine kind of testing of your dough or your batter, you find a possible sign of contamination of microbe, salmonella. And something like that can kill your business, right? So what happened?

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Our own test on ourselves came back with a positive microbe.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  And Costco, major retailers, they do recall everything. They don't want to take any risks, which is totally understandable. So I'm calling these folks that I have spent years, you know, a decade of creating trust with and telling them that this product needs to be returned. And it's crushing. And so we're just thinking, gosh, this could shut down things permanently. I remember not wanting to go to sleep because you have to wake up the next day and go through it all again.

• 6:14Guy Raz?

  Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements they built.

• 6:25Guy Raz?

  I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how a family rescues itself from financial ruin by selling hand-rolled energy bars, which eventually wind up in every major grocery in the country.

• 6:44Guy Raz?

  I'm going to let you in on a little secret about this show. Even though it's an audio program, I actually want you to experience it visually, almost like a movie in your head. And oftentimes, the stories on this show are so implausible, so against-the-odds crazy, that indeed, they sound like fiction. Maybe you heard the episode a few years back with the McBride sisters, how the sisters only discovered the existence of each other after their father died, and then connected and started a wine brand. That story was incredible, and so is today's. And make no mistake, you will learn business lessons in this one, for sure.

• 7:24Guy Raz?

  In fact, you will hear how Bill and Lee Keith, brother and sister, turned their dad's homemade energy snack into a big business, Perfect Bars, a business now owned by the multinational company Mondelez. Bill and Lee grew up with 10 brothers and sisters. They were raised in the 1980s and 90s, traveling around the Western United States, mostly in a school bus, which they also sometimes lived in. Their dad, Bud Keith, was a small-time health and fitness guru who was also a deeply committed Christian. He was a complicated man who struggled financially. And it's fair to say, the kids grew up in conditions most people would describe as poverty.

• 8:09Guy Raz?

  But Bud also emphasized health and nutrition at home. Before Bill and Lee came along, Bud ran a gym on Mission Beach in San Diego, and at one time, worked with fitness pioneer Jack LaLanne.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  So growing up, my father was larger than life. You know, he was 250, 300 pounds. Anytime he could go into a gym and pick up the 100 pound dumbbells and, you know, just do a few reps with them just to show the young kids.

• 8:38Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was a big guy, super strong, full head of hair, curly blonde hair, just so charismatic, always giving the thumbs up to people on the boardwalk.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  That's what he was known for.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  Just saw life through the rosiest glasses and just absolutely such a positive person, maybe to a fault.

• 8:59Guy Raz?

  So he had several different lives. By the time you guys were born, Bill, you were born in 1982 and Lee, I think you were born in 85. Your dad married your mom Barbara, which was his fourth wife, is that right?

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:16Guy Raz?

  And you guys were raised basically kind of like this, you were like an itinerant family. You were on the road. Tell me about your life in the 80s and 90s. What does that mean, living on the road?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  So we, we were born kind of all over the place. So our parents would go between living in a motorhome, maybe signing a six month lease somewhere, maybe parking in someone's driveway and kind of living with them. And then eventually, as the kids grew, that became a school bus that we lived in, not a converted fancy thing by any means. You're sleeping right in the bus benches. So it was just kind of a nomad lifestyle always. So California, Utah, Texas, Arizona.

• 10:00Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Primarily there, but we went all over the country, end to end.

• 10:04Guy Raz?

  I'm looking at a photo of you guys in the early 90s. Bill, you must have been seven or eight or, and there's seven kids in this photo. Your mom's holding a baby, so number seven. So she's still going to have several more kids.

• 10:20Speaker 02

  Five more.

• 10:22Guy Raz?

  And I'm, I'm trying to figure, so first of all, they had all of these kids and your dad was trying to make a living by selling nutritional supplements. Tell me about school. I'm assuming you never really went to a regular school because you were on the road all the time.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  Correct. So, early on, we were taught from my mom, just out of like a hundred lessons.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  There was a book called How to Learn to Read in a Hundred Easy Lessons. And I remember that. That's how Bill and I learned to read as little kids.

• 10:53Speaker 02

  At the same time, by the way.

• 10:56Guy Raz?

  It's, to say the least, like a very unorthodox upbringing, right?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Very.

• 11:02Guy Raz?

  And you talk about your dad quite fondly, and your mom, and I imagine with twelve, you know, with so many siblings, and Bill, you're the oldest. I mean, you probably had to take on some responsibilities with all those younger brothers and sisters. How aware were you guys of your unusual circumstances? Like, for example, did you have access to TV? Did you watch cartoons? Were you into like Pokemon cards and other things other kids your age would have been into? Like, was that part of your world?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we really learned how to read, at least for me, out of the Bible. Just taking the Bible out. We would have little, I would call them glimpses, into what we'd call, quote unquote, "the world." We would have this little box grain-white television that had the clicker broke off, so you'd have to use pliers to turn the channels. And you had like one or two stations, and you'd see some cartoons, and it would just, you know, we were glued to it. But then, you know, my father would say, "All right, no more TV for a year."

• 12:10Speaker 01

  We knew, to your question, we knew how small our world was. You know, I'd say, our dad, we were very mature to kind of look at him and reflect on why things were the way they were, and probably why we would leave a lease and hit the road again. I think Bill and I have, like, as we've gotten older, maybe viewed, he always made it like it was his choice, but I think you come to learn, he probably was out of money, and he needed to hit the road and take some of the pressure off and kind of go find another place to settle or opportunity. I think like now, we look back on it now, being parents ourselves, and we say, "There was a bit of a midlife crisis, probably here," and just wanting to take control of...

• 12:56Speaker 01

  This chapter of his life and to forget the ties to any responsibility to the the modern world. He didn't want to owe anybody anything. He said, if you don't have anything, nobody can take anything from you. I'll never forget him saying that sentence. And I said, well, we sure don't have anything.

• 13:14Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I imagine, given that the 12 of you were really all kind of together and traveling and moving every few months, that you didn't have other friends. Your friends were your siblings.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  That is correct. And, you know, I would be typically the one watching the kids. And so, yeah, we, you know, not only all of us getting together, sort of getting to to know us, but we, I built, I feel like we built a lot of trust during that time, Lee, you know, so that we've carried the rest of our lives that when it was time to do something big, to take care of our family, I knew I could trust Lee. Cause I, you have this survivor instinct that goes back to when we were kids, just trying to help each other out.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  It's a bond like no other, that's for sure.

• 14:05Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Meantime, while you're sort of traveling around the country, your dad was also like, like visiting people to, I guess, to advise them on their health and nutrition. And I mean, it sounds like, I mean, I use this word very carefully because it can be pejorative, but was almost like a guru to some people. Right? And, and I guess one of his messages was like, in order to become healthy, you need to, to follow the path of God or Christ or, or whatever, however he presented it. Is that fair to say?

• 14:33Speaker 01

  That was part of it. Mind, body, spirit. Definitely a religious element to his healing practice, but also really mind, body, and then food being the cure for everything.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  That's right. And my dad was just, he was so excited about helping people. And this is again, a really positive aspect. He had folks with different, you know, diseases, MS. Crohn's disease and he would bring him into his house and do his absolute best to get results and he wouldn't charge people for this. He would do mind, body, soul therapies through reflexology on the beach. He would use his organ meat tablets and protein and essential fat supplements and just, you know, these are all things, by the way, mixed up in barrels in our backyard. You know, these are not lab tested. And we, we would see

• 15:30Speaker 02

  these folks go through a lot of transformation and it was incredible.

• 15:34Guy Raz?

  I mean, today, he would have been an influencer on Instagram and would be making hundreds of thousands of dollars. And, and, but it sounds like he was motivated by, by his faith. Like it may, basically your description doesn't sound like he was, he was making money off of this. Like, you could imagine people coming to him and him saying, listen, I can work with you and consult with you. It's going to be, you know, a hundred bucks a week or something. Like, he didn't do that?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Usually, no.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  No, you're exactly right. He was motivated by his faith and results. That's what he cared about.

• 16:04Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right. So, one of the things that he started to, to make was these like, energy bars or whatever, just, just nutrition, just bars to feed you, I guess. And it was a, like a combination of peanut butter and honey and fruits. And tell me about these bars that he would make for you guys?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  So, we, he, the way the recipe was born, as little kids, he wanted us to take those whole food supplement powders and oils and tablets that he had concocted and would sell.

• 16:36Guy Raz?

  And the supplements were, were like, what powdered, I don't know, vitamins?

• 16:41Speaker 01

  They were a whole food powder concentrate. So, all like beef spleen powder, beef liver powder, all dehydrated concentrates pressed into a tablet. And as kids didn't know how to swallow those big tablets, and of course, they tasted really gross to chew. And so, he ground them into a powder and mixed them with his protein powder and his omega oil. Mom had the stainless steel bowl, kind of smashing it all with her hands and adding honey as a sweetener. And we would roll them into balls. And we'd eat them and you couldn't taste the tablet powder. And they were sweet and peanut butter and honey and they were so delicious to us. And we were allowed to have one of those little balls every day.

• 17:26Speaker 01

  And that was getting our five tablets that we were supposed to have. And so we've been eating this recipe, you know, for almost 40 years now.

• 17:35Guy Raz?

  I guess your dad, that this became one of the things that he would, he thought could make some money for the family. You guys, I read in like 1995, Bill, you must've been 13 and Lee, you were nine or 10. You guys were, helped him sell these door to door.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Correct. So we would have Ziploc bags and we'd have these labels over it that would say, Perfect Foods Bar Plain, you know, that was, that would be our flavor name.

• 18:04Guy Raz?

  That was just peanut butter and honey.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  And, and no official label or anything. And we would give these to friends, to folks at gyms, a way to get your protein in a really easy, digestible way with no sugar, just honey. And, um, and it was a great treat. So we would sell a few hundred of these. And my father, if he ever had any big trips for us to go on, he'd make this, uh, like for instance, we were going to Disneyland and he put the goal that we needed $600. And so we would mix these mini bars up over the next year, all of our garage sales money and all these different ways to raise $600. So that was part of the motivation in us getting up there and, you know, making these bars.

• 18:48Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So, uh, so, so this was, so you were selling these bars. And I guess around, I don't know, Bill, you must've been 17, 18. You guys moved up to Northern California to a town called Willow Creek, which I had to look up on the map. I live in Northern California, but this is like, like Oregon, almost of California. It's like way up there.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  It's way up there.

• 19:11Guy Raz?

  Tiny, tiny town, probably a couple hours south of the Oregon border. Willow Creek, why did, why did you guys move there? What happened?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  So he, he was really wanting to get into the woods, um, pretty isolated where he could be off the grid. And we headed up there from San Diego, just, and I remember thinking, gosh, this is isolated, not seeing a house for hundreds of miles in the middle of the forest. And then you come across this little, uh, this little valley.

• 19:45Speaker 01

  So we moved to the little town, uh, without a plan. And, um, he started talking to the townsfolk and kind of figuring out where we could work. You know, and we would harvest someone's cherries and split it with them and sell the cherries to the local co-op and make a few dollars that way. We'd, um, from, you know, harvesting crops to landscaping to kind of just odd end jobs, putting us kids to work. And then we settled in a, um, abandoned pizza restaurant behind the one gas station in the town. And, um, I was 14, Bill was 17, um, had no windows, still had the old pizzas moldy in the oven.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  And we cleaned that place up and slept in the booths where people used to dine. And that was home for a year. We had Christmas there. A sister was born there, which keep in mind, the last three siblings, my sisters and I delivered without a doctor.

• 20:43Guy Raz?

  You were the midwife to your, three of your siblings?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yes. The first one, the midwife couldn't make it. And then, um, it went well enough, I guess, that we were hired. And so, uh, there was no, um, no doctors after that. Keep in mind, it was number 11 and 12. So my mom, uh, was a pro.

• 21:01Guy Raz?

  Pretty experienced. Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  But I, you know, it's things like that, Guy, I look back and think, gosh, you know, we, we're pretty lucky in a lot of ways. And things could have gone a lot of different avenues. And, um, yeah, that pizza restaurant was where, um, our, our youngest sister Faith was born.

• 21:21Guy Raz?

  It's just amazing because it like this is not Little House on the Prairie era. Like this is the 90s, right, or early 2000s?

• 21:28Speaker 02

  Early 2000s, yeah.

• 21:31Guy Raz?

  Just a remarkable upbringing. I mean, this could do a whole episode on just your childhood. But meantime, this, I guess, an inn or bed and breakfast becomes available for sale. And your dad bought it. How did he have the money to buy it?

• 21:47Speaker 02

  So he actually carried a note with the owner. They were getting older and we were able to carry a note and spend the next few years trying to pay aggressively. And the thought process behind it is that if we could put the work in to fix the motel up, we'd be able to raise the rental amounts because we're talking about $15, $20 a night. Very small margins. And so that was going to be our next business venture.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  It was this little motel on the highway that was built in the 1870s. So it's 130 year old.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  It was a stagecoach stop, an original stagecoach.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  And it was all overgrown and the folks that owned the place were elderly and really not able to take care of it. And then we also really came to learn there wasn't really, you know, any kind of industry in the town. So there wasn't necessarily people even needing to stay in a motel. And it had a middle house and that that was probably felt like most home for us. That was for me, 14 to 18 years old was living there.

• 22:57Guy Raz?

  Wow. Meantime, your dad's getting sick. Did he know what he had? Did he know what was going on or was he just not feeling like, did he go to a doctor?

• 23:08Speaker 01

  It was obvious he had skin cancer that was progressively getting worse on his head.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And so we saw this spot grow from, you know, a pimple. It took 15 years to where it took over the side of his head. It eventually took his ear off, you know, it was really sad. It was really sad.

• 23:27Guy Raz?

  Was he getting any kind of like medical treatment at all?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  No, none. And he actually wouldn't even take aspirin. And so

• 23:36Guy Raz?

  Nothing?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  Nothing. And he never saw a doctor. And I, I think that the strain that also came with him being in so much physical pain was it became a very volatile home. But we, you know, education wasn't around. I remember asking my dad at, you know, 15 years old, there wasn't any textbooks around and I was the maid in this motel. And so he said, well, if, if it's meant to be, God will provide it. And we were at a yard sale a few months later, and there was a book with no cover on it that said GED. It was for 25 cents. And he said, well, there you have it. And he bought that for me. And through that, I had

• 24:18Speaker 01

  gotten my GED with that book. And I'll never forget, my dad was sitting in the living room and I, I, I knew that would really bother him. He didn't want any of us to leave. I think he, his world was a little bit closing in on him. And he also needed us to take care of his younger kids. That's just plain and simple. I knew that's was a part of it. And so I remember telling him, hey, dad, remember that book? I got my GED. I, I took the test when I went on a grocery run with mom. Like, I was nervous to tell him because he would probably be upset. And I remember he like muted the TV and he looked at me and he, huh. And then he unmuted the TV. And that was

• 25:00Speaker 01

  the end of my high school graduation. Didn't get a reaction. That was better than a bad reaction. And then I went on with my day. And it's wild to think back now, having my own kids. How just, you know, unbelievable experience for me, but it absolutely kind of shaped my character for sure.

• 25:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm always impressed with Lee's motivation because I, um, early on, I started getting into basketball and my dad had a little bit of a fondness coming from Indiana for basketball. So that allowed me to sort of go out into the quote unquote world. Uh, and I was able, my dad met with the local principal at the high school in Hoopa and said, hey, he needs to work, but he wants to play basketball here. I was 16 and so they allowed me to come one day, uh, every two weeks.

• 25:46Guy Raz?

  And Hoopa was a town about what 20 minutes north of.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was about 15 minutes north. So I met with the coach out there and it was my first, um, sort of look at the outside world.

• 25:58Guy Raz?

  So you, you end up playing basketball in high school and then you actually went on to play basketball at the community college in, in, uh, I guess where Eureka.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  College of the Redwoods, yeah.

• 26:11Guy Raz?

  So you, you took a business class and one of your ideas or you had to come up with a, a business idea was to make your dad's bars, to create a business out of your dad's bars.

• 26:26Speaker 02

  Um, correct.

• 26:27Guy Raz?

  Was this a serious idea? I mean, was it something that you had talked about with any of your siblings? Or was it just like, okay, I gotta do this assignment and this is an idea?

• 26:35Speaker 02

  It was just, I had to do this assignment. Making bars for us was a pretty tough, um, chore.

• 26:41Speaker 01

  Didn't come with good memories.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  And so that was sort of the last thing I wanted to do, funny enough. Um, but we had this assignment in business class, um, a class that I've used all throughout my career. Quite honestly, that and accounting. And the presentation was the perfect foods bar was this name that I was, you know, that we were putting together. And, and so I presented it, handed out samples, uh, and I never forget my teacher going, it's a delicious tasting product, but a refrigerated bar? That just doesn't make sense. That's what he told me on the note and.

• 27:15Guy Raz?

  He wasn't wrong.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. Oh, absolutely.

• 27:20Guy Raz?

  And meantime, while this is going on, uh, Lee, um, you also left home, I guess after you got your GED. Uh, but I mean, you, you really left, like you kind of, like kind of ran away, right?

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had turned 18 and was trying to.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  Talked to my dad about get, you know, letting me move out or maybe I could go to college or go to the College of the Redwoods with Bill and my sisters and I wanting something more and that wasn't an option for our dad. And I had ran away with my brother, our little brother and my sister in the middle of the night. And I came to Bill's house and Bill was like, I'm, I'm living a fine life, Lee. What are you doing? Go back. And I was like, I'm 18. Like I, there's, there's no doing this on dad's terms and I have to make my way. And so Bill let me and my sister move into one of his, one of his bedrooms with

• 28:22Speaker 01

  two twin mattresses on the ground. And we started taking the bus and worked at Blockbuster Video and had little, you know, small checks and then we could mail some of that money back to mom.

• 28:36Guy Raz?

  Hmm. You know, it's, it's kind of remarkable. And I, and I, and I say this with admiration that neither of you seem to have resentment about this. Maybe you did at some point, maybe you worked through it with therapists or on your own, but it seems like upon reflection, you don't, you're not angry.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  No, I think that I, we, I'd say, yes, we definitely had resentment. At least I'll speak for myself as we stepped into taking over financially for our family and having that responsibility of all the kids. I think that was really hard and difficult. But I think that harboring any kind of anger or resentment and instead just have a lot of empathy for our father and we're able to really forgive a lot of those, those things.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  I think it took time for me speaking for myself. Because it was so unique and it felt like you were tied down in a sense

• 29:38Speaker 02

  that it did take some therapy. It took years of just talking to folks, working it out. And you could be held hostage in a sense by your past. Or you can just say, I can write my own story, you know? And that's where Lee and I really shared sort of the same vision for that's not going to hold us back. We're going to do it in spite of.

• 30:03Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  And when we were faced with this really devastating point where our father gotten severely sick, our outlook was very grim. We had less than $1,000, a $3,500 mortgage that we were behind two months on. And we needed a way to quickly raise some capital or we were going to lose our place, lose everything we had.

• 30:31Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  We then get that call that, you know, we are going to lose the motel. And our mom's saying, we'll have no place to live. And there were nine little kids under the age of 18 at that time. And so there was just a long road in front of our family.

• 30:52Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, how the family gets rescued by its own recipe for peanut butter bars and how those bars eventually find their way into Whole Foods, Starbucks and beyond. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 31:17Guy Raz?

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• 32:01Guy Raz?

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• 32:44Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 33:29Guy Raz?

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• 34:57Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2005 and the Keith family is in trouble. Bud Keith, their dad, is getting sicker and sicker. So the older siblings, Bill and Lee, decide to head back to the little town of Willow Creek to help support the family. I mean, that's a massive amount of responsibility to take on at such a young age. You know that now this is going to fall on your shoulders. Bill, primarily yours because you're the oldest kid.

• 35:29Guy Raz?

  How did you, I mean, were you kind of an autopilot? Like, I, I just have to do this. I gotta figure this out.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  First of all, the love for my family, the love of all of us. And it definitely wasn't just me. It was Lee and Heather and Monice.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And Amias and Sharice. If you were at all an adult, like that's who was in that circle, standing there saying, what were we going to do?

• 35:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. And so all of us huddling together and thinking all of the best options. And at that time, a lot of my brothers and sisters started getting jobs to help support the family. My job was to get this motel ready to sell because there was no way that we could run this place and try to get whatever equity we we could out of it. Then we we found a buyer that would be willing to give us cash and we had a hundred thousand in equity.

• 36:23Guy Raz?

  So that's pretty great.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And we'd never seen money like that in our bank account. And that was a moment for our family was us talking to our mom and we had had our dad move out and take care of himself and take some space from the family.

• 36:42Guy Raz?

  He moved out to like a apartment in Willow Creek?

• 36:45Speaker 01

  A motor home.

• 36:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 36:46Speaker 01

  He, he, you know, took to a motor home and kind of went to stay with some folks that he knew in Southern California. That wasn't his choice, that was ours.

• 36:56Guy Raz?

  Because he was so volatile.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yes. And, you know, we thought it best for him to take space, which he did. And we turned around and said, okay, the idea that we had, the best idea, and Bill really led this charge, was we could try and control our own destiny by, if we could put our family recipe in a real candy wrapper, we could start selling it in stores.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  The vision was if we could sell enough of these bars, we could support the family.

• 37:26Guy Raz?

  And make this peanut butter bar, turn that into a business.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:30Guy Raz?

  All right. This is a crazy idea. This is like jacking the beanstalk. This is like, here are some beans for your goats. I mean, who's going to take that hundred thousand dollars and say, let's, let's take it all and invest it in a peanut butter bar? But I mean, it's totally nuts.

• 37:50Speaker 02

  Well, think about mom, right? And she's going to let her 21, 22 year old son take all the family finances and, you know, roll the dice on this bar. And I still, having kids now, can't believe that she did it. Um, but she, she always says she had so much faith in us.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, it's wild to look back, but we spent 65,000 cash on a candy wrapper machine off of eBay. And it's arriving on a truck. Bill signs a lease at a thousand square foot little warehouse in Sacramento.

• 38:26Guy Raz?

  You decided, and this, this, at this point, you all moved to Sacramento, right? The whole fam, most of the family was Sacramento.

• 38:32Speaker 02

  So the family actually moved down to San Diego to be, um, a little bit more closer to my father and stuff down there. Um, even though he was, uh, separate. Um, Lee had gone down there and it was me and my brother in Sacramento.

• 38:48Guy Raz?

  It was you and your brother.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Amias.

• 38:51Guy Raz?

  What's your brother's name? Amias, okay.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:52Guy Raz?

  You moved to Sacramento, so you, you basically take 60,000 of the 100,000 and buy a machine that automatically wraps candy bars. Thinking, once we get this machine, that's going to transform this product. Because you had these things that were selling in Ziploc. Just for a moment, was there a cheaper way to do this? I mean, did you, did you have to buy a candy bar wrapping machine to do this?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  So I researched co-packers out and the co-packing minimums were so large. Cause we're talking about 50,000 bar minimum, which back then, I mean, that would have been everything. And not only that, they couldn't make the bar with the quality we wanted and expected. Um, cause for us in this company, it was always about if we can make a great tasting, highly nutritious protein bar, folks are going to love it. And every time we'd give it to our friends, folks would say, this is the best snack that they've ever had.

• 39:52Guy Raz?

  I mean, there, there's so many reasons why I can see people saying, this is not a good idea. Okay. Like a refrigerated bar made out of peanut butter and honey and like. I mean, you're basing the potential success on this just from feedback from friends, which I know, having done almost 700 of these episodes, every entrepreneur, when they start and they hand out their cookies or their bars or their apparel to friends, their friends are like, "These are awesome. I love these."

• 40:25Speaker 02

  That's what friends do.

• 40:27Guy Raz?

  And friends aren't, they're not always the best control group here, right? Like, the best panel oftentimes are not.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  And keep in mind, in 2005, that was in the height of the Atkins era. So, low carb, zero fat was everything trending in food. And we were high-fat, calorically heavy from nut butter. By no means were we on trend. We also think about the category. This was the same year Kind Bar founded. So, still, the key prominent players were Power Bar. Cliff was still very much, you know, kind of on the up.

• 41:03Guy Raz?

  Laura Bar had been around for a couple of years.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Laura Bar was still new. We did demos in the grocery store next to Laura herself. And so, many new brands that were coming into the space at that time.

• 41:13Guy Raz?

  Right. And let me just get a sense of how you were doing this. Because, first of all, from what I understand, it's you and your brother originally in Sacramento. And not only were you trying to sell them, you guys were physically making the bars?

• 41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:28Guy Raz?

  Tell me how you were doing that. You had like a...

• 41:30Speaker 02

  So, we had a little mixer. And then, we had just these trays where we would take it by 12 bars at a time, weigh it out after mixing, roll it into a firm tray, and then cut it by hand and put it through this packaging machine and box it up ourselves. So, we, me and my brother could do about 1,000 bars in about 10 hours.

• 41:55Guy Raz?

  Okay, that's pretty good. Did they look janky? I mean, using like a knife to cut through peanut butter bars, like, you're not going to get a perfect cut. It's not going to look like machine cut. Like, did they kind of look sort of like, you know, it was made by...

• 42:10Speaker 02

  It was a hodgepodge of trying to get it right. We tried to make sure we got the net weight correct, but a lot of times, that would send us way over. And folks would get bars that were basically a bar and a half and one. And so wildly inconsistent. And we had a label.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  We made it on Microsoft Word.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yep, on Microsoft Word. And the nutrition facts, we didn't, we looked up how to make a supplement fact panel, how to display the ingredients, all of that. We didn't have any advisors or anything.

• 42:47Guy Raz?

  What were you trying to sell it? I mean, you're in Sacramento and traditionally with these kinds of stories we've done on the show, a food product, there's concentric circles. Like you're in Sacramento, you start with a couple of stores in Sacramento, then maybe you get into a local chain in Sacramento, and then you maybe get into Whole Foods in Sacramento. That was not how you guys were doing this.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  No, so we were trying to get an audience with Whole Foods, with some of these bigger retailers, but just not breaking through the clutter, quite honestly. And so we would sell them in gyms and we would sell them in like, oh, co-ops, actually festivals as well.

• 43:24Guy Raz?

  How were you making all these bars and then going out and trying to pitch it to co-ops? And like, tell me about your day to day up there in Sacramento.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Oh, it was, we would spend, oh, our mornings, prospecting, going door to door. And then we would spend our time doing demos if we were lucky enough to get a gym here or there. We actually had a chain of four different gyms in Sacramento that we were in. At nighttime, after we were done pitching, we would make the product. We did almost every day. And we put a big old goal, I'll never forget, in my office, it was a small office, and then next to it was the warehouse. And it was 10,000 bars a month. If we can get, that was our break even point. And I, the first month would be 2,500, the next month would be 2,700.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  I mean, it was taking too long. And you start going three or four months, five months into it, not hitting your hurdles, starting to get in bigger and bigger debt. Well, we found ourselves in a point where we had a month's worth of cash left, and this was going to be it. All of the credit cards, I was over $100,000 in debt. And I was reaching the breaking point.

• 44:44Guy Raz?

  Hmm. So you've, you've really got to do something to generate more sales here, right? And, and I guess one idea that you had was to start going to like, like, like music festivals, rock festivals in Northern California to hand out samples there, right?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we looked at these festivals, went into the, a local, sort of a hippie festival up in Sonoma County, Harmony Festival. They would come and, and, you know, listen to music and everybody was feeling great. And let me just tell you, they had the munchies for peanut butter and honey snacks, you know? And, and so we did very well. And one of the folks that attended our booth worked at Berkeley Whole Foods, a grocery team leader, and she tried the product and she loved it. And she said, oh my gosh, I'm going to put this in my store. And, and me knowing that you had to get corporate approval, you know, I, I called there afterwards

• 45:42Speaker 02

  and I end up getting a, a meeting at the local corporate office in Livermore. After going through all the details, we were fortunate enough to get a one store test.

• 45:57Speaker 01

  For 30 days.

• 45:58Speaker 02

  For 30 days. And that's when I, I called up my sister, Lee, and Lee remembers the desperation in my voice. And I go, Lee, please, I need help. We have, we have a chance. Remember? I mean, that's all it was. It was just, we have a chance.

• 46:12Guy Raz?

  Meanwhile, Lee, you are in San Diego. Is, and is it you and another one of your siblings that were trying to also kind of market and, and, and get, get this product in front of, into stores in San Diego?

• 46:26Speaker 01

  So I, um, one of my roles was to demo at the accounts that we did have in San Diego. So we had a few gyms that would sell our product and also working at a real estate office and helping my mom with the kids. And so we got in our car, Sharice and I, and I think drove north within a day and These brothers of ours, Guy, they needed, they needed a kick in the butt. Their apartment was pretty dirty.

• 46:57Guy Raz?

  I'm sure.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  They weren't eating well. And so we did a big reset in that apartment and started bossing them around. And we started making bars and we took advantage of that 30 day test.

• 47:11Guy Raz?

  And Bill, you were driving back and forth Sacramento Berkeley every day or every other day to get fresh bars in to stock the store?

• 47:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:19Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  They allowed us to demo sun up to sundown, I think, just to kind of prove that that, that team leader had a good idea. But Bill, gosh, there was, I think you moved $30,000.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  $30,000 worth of sales in those 30 days.

• 47:36Guy Raz?

  You were demoing it every day?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Every day. But after those 30 days, I end up calling the buyer and he got right back to me, which never happens, you know?

• 47:47Guy Raz?

  Because you sold $30,000 worth of this.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Well, and I slow played it too. I said, hey, how was our store in Berkeley doing? Like acting like we were all big, you know? And he called me back quickly and he said, my gosh, that was game busters. That was a really, really great sales. He said, tell you what, we'll put you in 10 more stores. This seems like a hit.

• 48:08Guy Raz?

  But still mainly what you're selling is a peanut butter bar. I think you have maybe two or three other flavors. Maybe you added, you had like a carob chip bar, right? What are the flavors that you have in the beginning?

• 48:21Speaker 01

  We had a mixed nut, fruit and seed, carob chip and peanut butter.

• 48:25Guy Raz?

  And, and did people buy the carob chip? Cause carob to me is more controversial than, I don't know what, than, than any controversial issue. Like to me, carob is the third rail of American politics.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  We, in the natural channel, you know, if you couldn't find a chocolate option of a perfect bar, I think people settled on having carob if, if that's kind of where their cravings led them. It definitely is no chocolate chip and that came later.

• 48:54Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And and just to clarify, I mean, again, like, if you go to Whole Foods today, it was different in 2006, but if you go to Whole Foods today, there's half an aisle that's just energy bars.

• 49:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 49:05Guy Raz?

  Then, at the time, there was probably like a quarter of an aisle, maybe less. But nothing in the refrigerated section. Like, you're going, so, but because you're demoing in the store, you could direct people to where to get them.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  Well, that was the key. Demos have always been our key because, to your point, whenever we would try to do recommendations or ads, they would always go to the drybar set. No one would ever consider going to the refrigeration set. And so we were first put next to the orange juices. Kombucha was just coming on board at that time. We'd get put next to the kombuchas. And so it was really a hodgepodge of whoever had, you know, six to 12 inches of shelf space.

• 49:48Guy Raz?

  Why did it have to be refrigerated? I mean, it's peanut butter and honey and protein powders. I mean, peanut butter doesn't have to be refrigerated.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what it really is, it's from a stability aspect. So the cold just, it kept it firm. If you don't put something structurally in there, a lot of folks will use an emulsifier or some type of binding agent to bind the proteins and oils together. What happens is it just spreads apart.

• 50:20Guy Raz?

  Right. It's like salad dressing.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Correct. And if you've ever had anything peanut butter out of the freezer, it just tastes better. It's delivered better that way. It's sort of calms down the peanut butter taste a little bit that can be overwhelming.

• 50:33Guy Raz?

  And and the refrigeration seems to me to be like, there were some disadvantages because, you know, people aren't, if they're looking for an energy bar, they're going to the energy bar shelves. But the other side of that coin is... If you see something like that next to orange juice or yogurt or salsa, you're like, wait, that's interesting. That's different, which stands out too.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  That created curiosity. And so we'd always say, if we can make the product good enough with the best quality, when they bite into it, they're going to tell their friends about it.

• 51:08Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Okay, so now you're going to go to 10 Whole Foods.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 51:12Guy Raz?

  What does that mean?

• 51:14Speaker 01

  We needed more demo people.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  We needed more demonstrators.

• 51:16Guy Raz?

  How did you, how did you, did you, did you bring more siblings on or hire people? What'd you do?

• 51:23Speaker 01

  We all did those demos ourselves. You know, that was our weekends. We're standing behind tables and you could make sure you sold through the product on the demo table. And then you could leave them fully stocked when you left. And so we could sell $400 in a three hour demo and then leave behind a couple hundred dollars. So you're generating $600 to make that store stop and you're doing that weekly.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  It was really cobbled together.

• 51:52Guy Raz?

  So, all right, so you guys were doing that and, and you're in 10 Whole Foods, but were you getting anybody coming to you to just kind of help you and give you some mentorship? I mean, you're, you are all really young and, and I would be super excited to see what you guys are doing as a family. But was there anybody who was like, hey, I've got some experience here. Let me give you some advice or not quite yet.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  There was actually a gentleman that loved the product. And he said, tell you what, I would buy half of this company for $50,000 and I'll help you make it. I'm a professional business person. And we were close to closing that deal.

• 52:33Guy Raz?

  50 grand for half the business?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  For half the business because we had, we were running out of options. We had no money.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  He actually backed out of that deal.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  He backed out of it saying, I usually get 51% is what he said. So, um, thank God that deal didn't, didn't come through.

• 52:49Guy Raz?

  Talk about, uh, uh, you know, divine intervention.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 52:55Guy Raz?

  Cause I'm sure the time was super disappointing. You're like, oh, we lost this chance to get 50 grand.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Right, right. Well, we thought, you know, that was during the times where you're still not sure you're going to make it.

• 53:06Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So by 2007, you're in 10 Whole Foods that year. Just out of curiosity, did anybody at Whole Foods say, you know, you really might have more of a shot at scaling this if you can make it shelf-stable?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  Yep, we definitely had folks telling us, hey, this would be great if you can just tweak your recipe. And we had, you know, we had tried to do that. I remember taking it to a manufacturer and saying, hey, can you, what could we do? But it just changed the taste of the product. And then also, when you bind the oils and protein in the bar, it kind of leave like a rock in your stomach. And you think like, it's hard to digest, you know, proteins that are bound with the fats. And so it really, it changed the product and it changed the way you felt consuming the product. And so it was back to, no, we need to just continue using kind of our more fragile product.

• 54:02Guy Raz?

  And still hand-rolling it, hand-making it?

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Hand-making it with rolling pins.

• 54:07Guy Raz?

  In Sacramento, in that warehouse?

• 54:09Speaker 01

  So in 2008, we had kind of built up a little bit of revenue, a little bit of business that we moved the kitchen. We also, like, our family did need us closer. Like, we offered a lot of stability for our siblings. And so we moved down to San Diego and signed a lease for a little warehouse there. And, you know, started continuing to roll the bars with rolling pins.

• 54:35Guy Raz?

  And just do it yourself, basically not working with the co-manufacture, co-packer. Just as an aside, Bill, I mean, you are ostensibly the CEO. And you're the oldest sibling and you're kind of the leader of the tribe here. How did that work with your siblings? I mean, I think, based on the two of you, I think probably you're all pretty nice people and have good values. But, you know, still, like, you've got to tell them what to do and they've got to listen to you and you're the boss. And so how was that going?

• 55:09Speaker 02

  It had its challenges because I think there was a lot of personal development that my brothers and sisters were going through because of sort of the big life change that we had had, going from one thing in one direction of our father to being sort of independent. And so we, we felt like we did the best that we could at the time. And sometimes that meant... Splitting apart for a little bit and but we always sort of gravitated back together with the goal in the early days of just survival. That was always the rallying cry across the family.

• 55:45Guy Raz?

  And I think right around this time, like this is still in 2008, you guys hit a decent milestone, a million dollars in revenue, right? And meanwhile, Bill, I think you moved out to Denver for a while to expand the products into some more stores out there?

• 56:05Speaker 02

  I moved to Denver for a year. I had just gotten married to this lady that was a sister of a demonstrator we had in Northern California. And she moved with me to Denver. Lee was running the show back home and I was in Colorado going store to store pitching, trying to get traction out there.

• 56:26Guy Raz?

  Wow. That market was that important that you moved there?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  We still needed sales. You have this fear in your head that something bad is going to happen because you're not official at every touch point. You know what I mean?

• 56:39Guy Raz?

  What would the bad thing that would have, like what was keeping you up at night?

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Maybe the food processor folks would come in and shut us down or the FDA. You have all these fears in your head of not having everything buttoned up the way you want it to be. You desperately want that. You just can't afford it. And so you're running in a race to try to get to that point. Yeah.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  While Bill was gone and starting to, we were continuing to grow, you know, in a grassroots kind of way where we were sold. And it was time to take a big leap. You know, we had to become official. And so I toured this space that was 6,500 square feet. It was beautiful. It was zoned to be a commercial kitchen. It was just an empty warehouse. And to think about what it takes, even just out of the material or the know-how to build out a kitchen, we had no idea. We called up the health department and said, what kind of floor can we use? What kind of ceiling? What kind of walls? What's a drop sink mean? Like, and we just started putting one foot in front of the other, but we signed a lease

• 57:39Speaker 01

  in 2009 on a kitchen on East Gate Mall in San Diego and went to work with our own money, still totally bootstrapped, to cobble together a certified kitchen.

• 57:51Guy Raz?

  How much was a kitchen, by the way? What were you paying for it?

• 57:53Speaker 02

  It was into the half a million dollar range, which back then is, it was enormous. And that was being cheap. That was taking a lot of shortcuts.

• 58:03Guy Raz?

  And you're living in Denver at this time.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  I'm living in Denver. Well, I had, I had got the message from Lee. We came back home after about a year.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  We needed to build this kitchen together. We needed to build.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  We're gonna build this kitchen. And during that time, we needed some sales. We end up getting a national fresh market account. And so we jumped in a van and we took off across the country, me and my buddy, from San Diego to Miami, up to Washington DC and back, selling bars, pitching accounts to really try to promote a national launch. After that, we came back and we had spent $10,000 on this trip and Lee looked at me and she's like, $10,000?

• 58:43Speaker 01

  I said, Bill, you could have done this for seven. I know it.

• 58:47Guy Raz?

  Where did the $10,000 go? I mean, you weren't staying at like the Ritz.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  I know. Well.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  It was food. I saw some Six Flags, Magic Mountain tickets in there.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  There was a few amusement parks were part of the deal.

• 58:57Guy Raz?

  You go to amusement parks? You're supposed to be selling bars. What are you doing? Go to amusement parks?

• 59:02Speaker 02

  You need to have a little motivation in there. My buddy, that's all he asked for was that if we go to amusement parks on our way through.

• 59:10Guy Raz?

  He'd go with you.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:11Speaker 01

  And Bill and I were always the yin to each other's yang guy. You know, I think when, over the years, people ask how did it work? I think, you know, I, I could overanalyze and hesitate and be too, you know, like maybe thoughtful, critical, and you really do have to just go, right? And I think to Bill complimenting that, he's just, he goes.

• 59:34Guy Raz?

  Lee, I just want to sort of pause for a moment because at any, at this point, I mean, again, you grew up with like just enormous disadvantages compared to a lot of people that you were, you knew. Here you are, just like four years after you get a GED, and you're talking about margins and you're talking about P and Ls and you're doing all the accounting like, I mean, it's. Did you ever stop and think, I freaking like taught myself this stuff?

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  We were so hungry to not be those homeless kids in the motorhome without an education. Like, it really lit a fire in us and we wanted to give a different life to our brothers and sisters. And I really value those parts of my upbringing. Like, we used those hard times, I think, to our benefit. But self-taught and QuickBooks, self-taught manufacturing, we just, you know, how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? That was our mantra.

• 1:00:36Guy Raz?

  Yeah. So, in 2009, I guess you guys get a really big break, right? Because this is just three and a half years after you launched the business. You get a meeting with Costco, which is huge, right? The potential is huge. And I guess, it was like a broker there had reached out to you?

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  Correct. I was able to get a presentation with Costco. Very janky. If you look at our old packaging, it's wild that they even met with us. But the buyer liked the product. He tasted it and it was great. Well, they started, obviously, going back and forth on price.

• 1:01:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah, because Costco is, again, we've done this on the show. It's risky because in many cases-

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  Very risky.

• 1:01:17Guy Raz?

  You're essentially subsidizing the consumer for a while. It can be that, the case where you have to price the bars or the product at a certain price point where you're essentially losing money for a while.

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Right. So, we didn't want to do that. So, we made sure that it was going to be one of our best accounts from a margin perspective. And on the third time, we dropped the bar by one cent. That was the, because the buyer literally told us, if we don't do a deal, we're not going to come back here. And we dropped the product by one cent. That was enough to sort of close the deal. We had favorable terms and- We started roadshowing.

• 1:01:57Guy Raz?

  And by the way, just 10 Costcos in Southern California?

• 1:02:00Speaker 02

  It was five in Southern California and.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  And so keep in mind, like, we had done these demos standing in the traffic of a Whole Foods and you could sell $400 to $600 in product. Where a Costco, you could walk in and we would commit to a four-day roadshow, Thursday through Sunday. And you'd set up your 10 by 10 booth and we could move anywhere from a really slow-moving Costco, you know, $12,000 in revenue in those four days to $35,000, $40,000.

• 1:02:29Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:02:30Speaker 01

  In four days off of that 10 by 10 table. And it also was really quality interactions where we were able to point to the refrigerator. They could see what the product looked like. They could hear why. And it was, we talked to thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of people.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  And you get great feedback directly from the customers, to Lee's point, about the product. And that, and you bring that because there was no middle management or any, you know, we would be the ones making the product. We would make the adjustments, little quality adjustments, based on customer feedback in real time.

• 1:03:02Guy Raz?

  I, people who listen to the show regularly know I'm a big fan of Costco. I think it's a great equalizer. I think everybody would just love, I just think most people love it. And so, but I wonder, like, I don't ever do the samples at Costco because I, I just, I don't, they're very, like, a lot of things I just choose not to eat. But I, my, I want to go with my kids. They'd just go and just sample everything. So, part of me is like, yeah, you know, people are just sampling and sampling. But, but I guess only a tiny percentage buy, it still works out in your favor, right? Because they have to buy a large quantity of this product.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely. From the exposure, Costco sampling was one of the most effective ways to get product in mouth for a consumer, and that was our job. Because we felt our competitive advantage was our taste.

• 1:03:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  But we were concerned, would getting into Costco cannibalize our existing business? And in fact, it only built awareness for us.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  You'd cut up 10,000 samples in those four days. And they'd go away and they could find the product in the natural channel. We had built up Whole Foods Market in these regions, Sprouts Market. And we started seeing, you know, more traction without having to stand as much in those natural channels because you were sampling tens of thousands of people with your brand.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  By the way, all of our policies and procedures were just Googled out and researched. And when they came and did an audit, because Costco does an audit.

• 1:04:32Guy Raz?

  Oh, they came to your manufacturing facility?

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Yes, they were really surprised how small it was.

• 1:04:37Guy Raz?

  I'm sure. I mean, you were hand-rolling this stuff.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  We manufactured, produced product for two eight-hour shifts, and then the sanitation shift ran through the night. And so the lights never turned off in the kitchen. And we scaled from, you know, 20 team members in the kitchen to 65, still using rolling pins, Guy. And so that was a tipping point for us. We had pursued that co-man opportunity again, still came up dry.

• 1:05:09Guy Raz?

  You couldn't find a co-manufacturer that could deal with the viscosity of the dough or the...

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  And we weren't, we still didn't have anybody, like now we understand, you don't have any financing behind you. You don't have good credit as a business. You know, certainly our done-in Bradstreet number wasn't anything you'd want to measure. But Costco was really turning well for us. And they wanted to expand to more regions. And I took to YouTube and we were able to find these kind of semi-automated machines from a company out of Santa Barbara. So on YouTube, I saw that these machines, it was pressing a Rice Krispie treat into the tray in a pneumatic way and making it even. And lo and behold,

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  that equipment, Bill, we won't forget that moment, that it pressed 45 bars into one of those sheet pans. And we were able to go from, the last year we made product with rolling pins, we produced 7 million bars. And we were then able to convert to these small pieces of equipment. And we were able to scale that little 5,000-square-foot kitchen to produce 20 million bars the last year we were producing in that kitchen.

• 1:06:27Guy Raz?

  Wow. So this is happening. And I want to back up in the timeline for a little bit, because we did, we jumped ahead a little bit. But, you know, there was so much momentum because you're in Costco and you're growing. And then you, you know, you're still hand-rolling it, you know, while you're selling this at Costco, 24-hour shifts.

• 1:06:47Guy Raz?

  But your dad, who was getting progressively sicker, he passes away in 2009. I know that he was increasingly volatile as he was getting sicker and sicker, but he was able to start to see that his children were having some success with this business. What did he think about that?

• 1:07:10Speaker 02

  It was wild. I'll never forget, one of the last things he said to me as I was loading these small coolers up to go take them to a retailer, he said, "Bill, that looks like a lot of expense. I doubt those pencil out," is what he said. And I said, "No, Dad, you know what? They actually are making money."

• 1:07:31Guy Raz?

  Do you think your dad derived some comfort from knowing? Because I think probably a lot of his stress came from the fear that he couldn't provide for these children, that he would die and they would be on their own. But seeing kind of that, maybe actually they would be okay, did that, did you get a sense that it provided him some like psychological comfort?

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  I think it did. He had spent some time kind of on his own and then to our mother's credit, being, you know, just leading her life with unconditional love, they, he spent the final, the final years of his life under the same roof with our mother and our brothers and sisters. And I think we had, he had come to terms with his illness and I think that we had the family in a nice home and the kids were going to school and food was on the table and he saw his, his kids working together and selling a recipe that he was very passionate about.

• 1:08:38Guy Raz?

  It's kind of, again, I'm not, I hope I'm not sounding like I'm psychoanalyzing your dad, but he strikes me as somebody who really, truly was the definition of a visionary without the discipline of a entrepreneur.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  Perfectly said.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  That's well said.

• 1:08:53Guy Raz?

  It would require his children and their discipline to do it.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  We always talked about that, like, we were not going to hop to the next idea because that's what we saw our whole lives. Like, we are just going to, you know, dig our heels in and stick with it.

• 1:09:11Guy Raz?

  When we come back in just a moment, Lee and Bill get their first chance at private investment and their first taste of disaster with a possible outbreak of Salmonella. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to How I Built This.

• 1:09:37Speaker 05

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• 1:10:15Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2014 and Perfect Bars are at about 4,000 stores with roughly $15 million in annual revenue. And Bill and Lee decide the packaging needs a new look, so they hire a branding agency to design it. And now, now the label changes to what it looks, more or less what it looks like now with a giant sort of peanut shape on the front. And so you see the peanut and there's the, just the protein content. And it's changed even more now where it's sort of, it's translucent. You can see the bar underneath it, but, but it more or less looks the same. Peanut bar.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Very similar.

• 1:10:55Guy Raz?

  It's a really nice looking packaging. And who, I mean, did that cost you a fortune to get that rebranded?

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  So we had to take a note with them. It was $85,000 for which now seems like a really good deal, honestly. But that was for a website and SKUs and all of the branding. And for the first time, we got to really focus on the brand and what we were about. We were about this family full of caregivers and bullet points on our packaging. Instead of having 15 claims, we focused on protein. We focused on, you know.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  Superfoods.

• 1:11:31Guy Raz?

  Macros, basically, what people call macros now.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:11:34Guy Raz?

  Protein, superfoods. When you change the packaging and the branding, what does it do for sales?

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Forty percent.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Oh, at least a 40% lift.

• 1:11:43Guy Raz?

  Forty percent lift, just right. It's amazing. And you guys were in Starbucks, which I think was kind of a pioneer in that, in the refrigerated section. How did you get into Starbucks? Did they come to you or?

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  So Starbucks, you know, interesting. It was just a personal connection that we had met at an event. We just, we didn't know who they were. And my sister and I were chatting with this awesome lady and just sharing our story and what kind of products we sold. And so never forget, she handed me her card, had the Starbucks logo on it. And, you know, it was right during the Me Too movement and there had been just some things that happened with my sister and kind of the manufacturing space, unfortunately. You know, it's a very male dominated sector and we were just sharing stories. And so we just, a credit to kind of who they are as a company.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  That, that woman just put her arm around us and gave us her card and said, you know, let's, let's talk about your product. And so just having no idea who she was and having that kind of human connection. We were then able to send samples. They gave us a, you know, couple hundred store test. And just imagine how thrilling that was to see your little family recipe now with that new brand on the shelves in Starbucks. And that was a huge awareness driver for us.

• 1:13:01Guy Raz?

  All right, so you guys are growing, growing, growing. And I imagine, so I want to, I want to talk to you about bringing in outside investors because you brought in outside investors in 2015, VMG Partners. Did you have people coming to you or, or were you still under the radar enough where you had to go find it yourself?

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we, we actually met VMG Wayne Wu, one of the partners at VMG. And at the time, we were only doing, you know, three to five million and we weren't there yet, but he was going to keep an eye on us. So when we reached after the rebrand, we decided that we wanted to take a next step with this brand to give it all that it could be.

• 1:13:43Speaker 01

  I would say though, Bill, we had hesitated a little bit of what tipped us over the edge. Think we had gone from three million to seven million to 15 million. Keep in mind, you know, Target, Kroger, Walmart, we're all starting to knock on our door. Hey, you're, you're really selling well in Whole Foods. You know, we were posting amazing numbers at Costco, rolling the dice every single day. And it's hard to build a business and scale from seven million to 20 million, like very quickly, without anything in the bank. And we really didn't have a fallback.

• 1:14:18Guy Raz?

  Yeah, and you're, you're really close to getting this deal. But then something really bad happens, which is during what I guess was, was a routine kind of testing of your dough or your batter. You find a possible sign of contamination of microbes, salmonella and something like that. I mean, we've talked to other founders who've dealt with this kind of thing. I mean, something like that can kill your business, right? So, so what happened?

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Christmas week 2014, we had built our processes so quickly and being a little bit reckless in how fast we were shipping our product. And our own test on ourselves came back with a positive microbe and that product was not in the walk-in.

• 1:15:03Guy Raz?

  You had shipped it out already?

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  It had shipped the same day.

• 1:15:07Guy Raz?

  Was it a false positive? It didn't matter, right?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  We don't know. Still to this day, we don't know. So what happens? Ah, never forget that Christmas week, some of the toughest, toughest days in the history of our company.

• 1:15:19Guy Raz?

  You have to recall everything from the shelves, everything, right?

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  So we have the specific lots that are affected, but

• 1:15:26Guy Raz?

  Right.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Costco, major retailers, they do recall everything. They don't just

• 1:15:31Guy Raz?

  They don't want to take any risks.

• 1:15:32Speaker 02

  They don't want to take any risks, which is totally understandable. So I'm calling these folks that I have spent years, you know, a decade of creating trust with and telling them that this product needs to be returned. And it's crushing.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  And we called the FDA. I remember like just that feeling that, that just sick to your stomach. Call the FDA on yourself. So then within a day, they show up to our kitchen and they have guns, by the way, at least those did, and badges, and they said, we're shutting this kitchen down. Like, this is it. We're taking-

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  This is FDA inspectors?

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  I didn't know they were armed. Wow. Well, so it's, it's actually, yeah, it's the food processors. They deal with a lot of like agriculture, like farmland and stuff, and so they do carry guns. My god. And, um, and it's wild. Yeah, so they come in. Guns blazing. Oh, boy. And, and they're gonna do 500 tests on our factory and finished goods, and they're gonna find the root of this issue. Oh, man.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  And all the shelves across the country are empty, and we're not filling any orders because we're not producing products.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  How much money has this cost you so far? Hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, but, but it's depleting our inventory and our cash reserves. So there is no fallback. And, and the inspector comes in and says, hey, this might not be an operation that can make product like yours, this cold-pressed product. And so we're just thinking, gosh, this could shut down things permanently and really having... I remember going to not wanting to go to sleep because you have to wake up the next day and go through it all again. And after two weeks, we're just waited, you know, waiting to see the results, and they didn't find one issue. And so it very well could have been a false positive or an ingredient issue.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  And, and I feel like at that point, we had gained a relationship with this one woman in particular from the FDA, and, and I think that she felt so sorry for us. Like, you guys, if you just had that, those finished goods on hand, we could have tested to confirm. And so the energy shifted from, we're gonna catch you, we're taking this place down. And, and, I mean, good on them. I, I want food safety across the country. I commend people in that, in that line of work. And, you know, we made a call to, obviously, VMG during that time.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Your, your new investors.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, you know, and said, we have a little issue going on, and they did not, to their credit, they did not penalize their offer at all. They said, it's a wrinkle in the rug that needed to slow us down and, um, and pay attention and, and be open to taking on investment. And, and we, we like to see that, you know, with the attitude that things happen for a reason. And we still to this day believe things happen for a reason and all of that.

• 1:18:21Guy Raz?

  Okay, I want to ask you about bringing on investors because now for 10 years, a little over 10 years, you guys have brought this business up to $15 million in sales, all by yourselves, bootstrapped it. You've learned a lot along the way. You've got the scars to prove it. You are experienced operators. Now you've got professional investors coming in and they brought in some executives to join you guys, I think. Did that cause any tension? I mean, I'm sure now that you've got more of a quote unquote professional group of people joining you, they have ideas of what it means to professionalize. And was that smooth sailing or was it a bit rocky?

• 1:19:06Speaker 01

  Oh gosh, talk about feeling like imposters. Like in my mind, in our minds, we were still those homeschool kids. Like, Guy, we grew up showering in public bathrooms. I brushed my teeth in the Home Depot bathroom and washed my little sister's hair in the public bathroom. Like, there's no being, having any ego after that. And so, they had taken a minority position. So Bill and I controlled the board. And so, we kind of always felt like kind of the, you know, ownership still in our business very much, but very open. Like, we have learned everything we have through our lifetime from just being a sponge and putting ourselves, you know, we're smart enough to know what we don't know, and putting ourselves in the room with people that are smarter than us. And so, our first meeting

• 1:19:50Speaker 01

  with them, I'll never forget, was in their offices in San Francisco, in the Presidio at Overlook, the Golden Gate. Beautiful office, you know, amazing team, everyone's Ivy League. Like, it's just, who are we, you know? And we walk in there, the huge binder with everything, you know, just starting to articulate our business in a way we never knew how, dividing it into four departments. We're going to need four department heads, you know, finance, we're going to house HR under there, operations, sales, marketing. Now, we're going to need a Director of Analytics, you're going to need, and you just start seeing somebody that's done it before map it out for you. It was just some really exciting time.

• 1:20:34Guy Raz?

  I'm curious about when you got this investment, how much money did they put in?

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  So they invested 15 million and we put 5 million in the bank and took 10 million off the table.

• 1:20:46Guy Raz?

  That must have been massively life-changing. I mean, it was $10 million to distribute among the family and the equity holders in the business.

• 1:20:56Speaker 02

  It was life-changing. I bought a house, I think Lee did too, bought mom a house, you know, and having a little buffer. That was the biggest thing is not just being on a knife's edge.

• 1:21:09Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But Bill stayed on as CEO. You were still the CEO, running the business.

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  Yes, I remained the CEO, yep.

• 1:21:15Guy Raz?

  And one of the things I guess there, so the people that came and joined you suggested was, hey, ditch the carob and use chocolate. And this was like, kind of controversial among the family, right, to use chocolate.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  So early on, growing up, we did not eat chocolate. Everything was carob in our household. And so carob chip was a flavor that we enjoyed, but it just wasn't translating on the shelf.

• 1:21:43Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I thought carob kind of faded away with the end of like 70s co-ops, but it didn't.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Not in the Keith house, you know?

• 1:21:51Guy Raz?

  Not in the Keith house, yep. Carob that my mom, when I was a kid, used to say was chocolate. She'd say, here's chocolate. We eat carob. And it was not chocolate. You couldn't fool me. It was just, it wasn't good. It was not delicious.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  We never had chocolate or refined sugar growing up in our house, so carob chips, you know, was chocolate to us.

• 1:22:14Guy Raz?

  It's amazing because when VMG invested, I'm assuming that they expected a certain metric, to hit certain metrics and growth. And from what I gather, initially, they were, you were not. And that created some pressure, which I guess was the reason why, or one of the reasons why you guys introduced the chocolate chip bar, because it was sort of a hail mary, like, we need to, we need to hit these metrics.

• 1:22:35Speaker 02

  Right. And so that was the big theme around these board meetings is how are we going to get, are we just going to be a natural in some club business brand? Are we going to be able to make that jump, which is not guaranteed with a lot of brands, that they can make the jump to conventional, make the jump to mass, Target, Walmart? And Wayne Wu, he at a board meeting, he says, Bill, have you ever considered chocolate with peanut butter?

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  We were like, never, Wayne. All of our customers would leave us. Everybody would write in and abandon our brand.

• 1:23:07Guy Raz?

  Nope, they wouldn't care.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:23:08Guy Raz?

  They wouldn't care, he's saying.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:10Guy Raz?

  And they didn't. In fact, introducing a choc- chocolate chip peanut bar, like, that was a game changer.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  It became the number one seller in the country.

• 1:23:19Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  And it still is.

• 1:23:21Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  But sometimes you're too close to things, you know? And we just thought that was outside of our guardrails. And, you know, I remember, um, you know, the patience it must have taken for the V M G team to sit there. And I was sitting next to Mike Moser at a board dinner, and I reached for the chocolate dessert, and he's like, see, no, so you eat chocolate? And I think about like, how sweet they had to be to sit and talk us through how, maybe that was your dad's food values, but where's your food values? And, um, what a credit to who they are as humans to really take us along in that and get us to get on board.

• 1:23:57Guy Raz?

  All right. You guys now are with the injection of cash and partners, you hit seventy million dollars in sales by twenty eighteen. And that's, I mean, once you hit fifty million, that's really where you start to kind of think about acquisition or a bigger investment. A hundred million now, I think, in C P G is, in food is more common. But that year, you guys started to search for potential acquirers. So you guys made a decision that, hey, maybe now we should, you know, we've done this, we've built this up, coming into fifteen years of doing this, let's see if we can, you know, earn, you know, get some, some money for what we've, we've done.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Yes. And we wanted to make sure that this story remained a beautiful story and that the family dynamics, um,

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  You know, you hear about multi-generational business to where it might have worked with the brothers and sisters, but the kids didn't get along as well. And something that was beautiful turned into something else.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think we, not by any one's did, we all want to be peanut butter bar makers growing up when we were little kids. In fact, we hated making those perfect bars a lot of the times. And, and I think we all kind of wondered, you know, a lot of our brothers and sisters, seven of us at one time, working in the business. Sister Heather and Sister Monies running the roadshow program, traveling across the country, just hard work over those years. Zane out in retail demos, Sharice running operations with Steve and kind of all going where we were needed in the business. I think there was a little curiosity of what it would feel like as brothers and sisters to just be brothers and sisters. We had never just had that between us.

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  It was always a, you know, money and a level of business and responsibility that we carried between each other. So it was the right move for our family. It allowed our, our siblings to kind of set out into the world and what do you want to be when you grow up, you know? But here you are 15 years in and, and if we could find a right partner that would leave our business independent, you know, it would be, that might be the right choice for our family.

• 1:26:16Guy Raz?

  You did eventually find and acquire, well, somebody who was interested in buying a majority share, and that was Mondelez, which also owns Cliff Bar and

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Oreo and Nestle.

• 1:26:29Guy Raz?

  Nestle, yeah. And, I mean, there was gonna, they, they put in a lot of money to acquire a majority share. I mean, this is a very sensitive question, but when money gets involved, it can really, it can tear families apart, it can really damage family dynamics. So I have to imagine with 12, you know, 13 siblings, and now you're talking about serious money, I mean, did it create some challenges in terms of how it was going to be distributed among the siblings?

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Thankfully, we had it pretty spelled out and we put together a trust. So the challenges came from, I would say, some of us knew how to handle finances and some of us just weren't taught and didn't have the literacy. So there were some challenges there, but overall, it's been such a positive benefit across everybody and it ended up being the right decision. I know for me, my health was another thing.

• 1:27:29Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, I think on the, like around this time where you're about to come into serious money, which is going to be just unbelievable, given, especially given how you guys grew up.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:27:38Guy Raz?

  You yourself were very quite unhealthy and it's, no, I don't want to say ironic because you're doing, you run a healthy company, but you're on the road, you're under stress, you're probably not eating well. Tell me what health issues you were dealing with because you, again, you were a young guy. You were in your 40s, right?

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  Thirty-seven.

• 1:27:56Guy Raz?

  Late 30s.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:57Guy Raz?

  Thirty-seven, okay. And you've, you had high prostate PSA levels or what?

• 1:28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I'm not able to pee, you know, without getting too much details and I'm literally a week after seeing the number in your checking account, just it doesn't make sense. You're mind, you know, and then you literally a week later think, wow, I would have traded all that to just be healthy and be able to go to the restroom. And it was, the stress was pretty severe, you know, that the year of selling a business, you're doing two full-time jobs. You're, you're running the biggest business that you've ever ran and then at the same time, you're on the road constantly and it caused me to get way behind in my health to a point to where I had a reading that said I had a

• 1:28:44Speaker 02

  high likelihood of cancer and, and so I had to basically really take a step back and start researching what I could do to fight this. So.

• 1:28:58Speaker 02

  One of the ideas that I had was my father used to make this oil mixture, this omega oil mixture that he'd give to folks that had prostate issues. And thankfully, after six months, I started seeing some really good results. My readings were going down and happy to say it's been five years and I'm in a really good place with no cancer. But that was a very critical time that had me take pause and work on my health and I lost 50 pounds and really went through a transformation.

• 1:29:34Guy Raz?

  And this is while you were sort of transitioning out. I know, Lee, you and your brother served as co-CEOs for a time, but eventually, but assume, imagine, Bill, at least for you, as you started to focus on your health, you were already thinking, I'm going to eventually transition out.

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Yes, at that time, exactly. We had a few years that we could help transition the company, what they call an earn-out.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  And then three and a half years after that earn-out, in what was that then? Q1 of 2023, they purchased the rest of the business and Bill had exited out and I've continued on with the business for the last two years.

• 1:30:16Guy Raz?

  You're the chief of brand.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Chief of brand. We brought in a CEO, which to Mondelez's credit, they gave Bill and I that responsibility in discretion to find the right next leader for our baby business. And so it's just been really fun to see it continue to make, you know, healthy transitions. Because for any founder out there, you start a brand, it's like it's always going to be yours forever.

• 1:30:42Guy Raz?

  And now you can focus on the fun stuff like branding and being an ambassador rather than dealing with the kind of the things that is not always fun.

• 1:30:53Speaker 01

  Like tariffs or inflation, yes.

• 1:30:57Guy Raz?

  Right, right. Your story is so remarkable and unlikely. Like, the two of you, based on all the things that you had to overcome, all the hurdles, all the things in your way, should not be multimillionaires, should not have created a very successful CPG brand, should not, had no background, had no, you didn't come from elite schools, you didn't have a formal education growing up. You grew up in buses and with this very unstable upbringing, and yet, the kids in this family stepped up and made this happen. How much of this do you attribute to the work you put in, the grind, and how much you think had to do with fortune, faith, luck, whatever, God, call, I don't know what you want to call it. Lee, what do you think?

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  I would have to say it's a combination of both, right? I mean, I reflect back on our childhood, how lucky are we built to have been born in the United States of America and to have the opportunity to take the background that we had and to create the American dream. I think that's lucky. You know, I think I'm lucky to have been introduced to the natural products industry through my dad, however eccentric that it was. I'm lucky to work alongside my amazing brothers and sisters, especially this brother right here. So, I think you pair that with hard work and determination, just really amazing things have happened.

• 1:32:20Guy Raz?

  Bill?

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, how do you follow that up? No, I, I think it's very cliche, but success comes where preparation meets opportunity, right? So, we reached a point in this natural industry to where the timing was right to accept this kind of product. If we had launched 15, 20 years before this, huh, we saw what happened and wasn't ready. So, when you have, the timing is right, when you have determination behind you from all the folks involved, you sort of create a lot of your own luck and you have some, some grace from the heavens above, and, and that's when magic happens.

• 1:33:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it is amazing. Your mom, who is sort of, you know, we didn't talk about her that much in this episode, but kind of an unsung hero here. I mean, she had, I think, probably a difficult life for much of her life, and now probably has, has, you know, has provided for, right? Has some comfort.

• 1:33:21Speaker 02

  Right. She's an amazing person. And oftentimes, when she met my father on the beach that day, she took a right instead of a left. And I go, how many times do you wish you went left? She says, no way, I wouldn't have all of you. She's the heart behind our family. And mom sort of kept things in the background together with that heartbeat. And I'm thankful for that.

• 1:33:46Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And she's still a young woman. She's only in her early 60s.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  Yes. And mom has now, how many? A dozen or 13 grandkids from us so far. I have three beautiful daughters. But I think I've worked through so much with my mom, becoming a mom myself, and realizing, you know, the situation that she navigated in her life, and ultimately, the unconditional love that she gave to her kids. Very much the unsung hero. So I appreciate you asking, because it's very worthy.

• 1:34:22Guy Raz?

  That's Lee and Bill Keith, co-founders of Perfect Snacks. By the way, since leaving the brand, Bill has started a new business called Green Fat, which sells nutritional supplements. As for the other siblings, many of them have gone on to pursue higher education and start their own careers. Right now, one is in Belize rebuilding a school. Another is the president of an environmental nonprofit. And remember Faith, the youngest sister who was born in the pizza restaurant? She just graduated from college. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs,

• 1:35:05Guy Raz?

  please sign up for my newsletter at guyraz.com or on Substack. This episode was researched and produced by Chris Messina, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by Neva Grant. Our engineers were Kwesi Lee and co., Takasugi Chernoven. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Jacey Howard, Casey Herman, Carla Estvez, Sam Paulson, Kerry Thompson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coats. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to How I Built This.