Harlan Coben

We have the thriller King joining us this week, international bestseller, Harlan Coben! You’ll find all his books in stores worldwide, and now his TV series are taking the world by storm on Netflix. His latest series 'Run Away’ also stars multiple previous guests of the podcast (James Nesbitt, Ruth Jones & Minnie Driver), and it’s gripping from start to the end! Mum was in love with Harlan from the moment he walked through the door. We discussed his writing process, his love of Bruce Springsteen, growing up in New Jersey and his mum being a terrible cook, writing ‘Gone Before Goodbye’ with Reese Witherspoon, his iconic Thanksgiving bagel party, and how his lead character Myron Bolitar is very much based on himself! Harlan’s new series ‘Run Away’ is released globally on Netflix on 1st January - don’t miss it! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:13Speaker 01

  Everybody, listen up.

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• 0:35Jessie Ware?

  Hello and welcome to Table manners. I'm Jessie Ware and it is a raining evening. Hi mum, how are you?

• 0:43Speaker 03

  Macabre.

• 0:44Jessie Ware?

  I know, me too.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 0:46Jessie Ware?

  But we're really excited about this guest.

• 0:48Speaker 03

  Couldn't be more.

• 0:49Jessie Ware?

  We have a legendary writer that you introduced me to.

• 0:54Speaker 03

  Devard his books.

• 0:55Jessie Ware?

  I mean, we've been reading him for decades.

• 0:59Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00Jessie Ware?

  The crime thriller extraordinaire Harlan Coben. I think anyone that's read the Harlan Coben novel, you go back for it.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  He's a great writer.

• 1:10Jessie Ware?

  And if you don't know Harlan Coben's literature, you'll probably know his Netflix shows.

• 1:15Speaker 03

  Missing.

• 1:16Jessie Ware?

  Missing, the new one that we're going to talk about called Runaway. He's done Lazarus, that's on Amazon Prime.

• 1:23Speaker 03

  With Bill Nighy, our mate.

• 1:25Jessie Ware?

  He also has written a book with Reese Witherspoon. I think we touched on.

• 1:30Speaker 03

  Gone Before Goodbye. I'd just started it.

• 1:33Jessie Ware?

  It's good. Maggie.

• 1:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35Jessie Ware?

  The Rongan doctor. Really excited to have him. So we had such a great time with John Gregory Smith and he gave us his cookbook.

• 1:44Speaker 03

  So you've cooked one of his recipes?

• 1:45Jessie Ware?

  I've done one of his because he does make life really easy. And so I've done his slow cooked coconut beef shin curry. And you kind of whiz up a paste. That's the hardest thing that you do. It's got lemon grass in it. It's got garlic, ginger, chilies, coconut milk, cardamom pods, star anise. And so you just put it in the oven for four hours and just. Let it all kind of melt. So we're having that with some rice and then I've done quite a pathetic like carrot ribboned salad with a bit of mint and coriander and bit of rice wine vinegar and sesame oil and salt and pepper. And then for pudding, I have cheated. We had a lovely

• 2:28Jessie Ware?

  gathering here on Sunday where we both cooked for a lot of people and we got kindly given from our friend an Ottolenghi pecan pie because

• 2:39Speaker 03

  It was great.

• 2:40Jessie Ware?

  So this is what Harlan Coben's getting.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Is it FHB?

• 2:44Jessie Ware?

  What's that?

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Family held back.

• 2:46Jessie Ware?

  You're gonna have to have a sliver.

• 2:47Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:47Jessie Ware?

  Because Sam hasn't held back and he's also taken the star anise mascarpone and I'm fuming. Luckily I have some cream, but I'm not happy. So yeah, that's what Harlan Coben's getting. I think that's okay, isn't it?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Sam is like the kind of

• 3:01Jessie Ware?

  He's annoying, he's inconvenient. He's just annoying. And like, and then he goes to the farmer's market because he wants to like, you know, not be on Amazon and all of that, which we totally respect. But then I've got a massive celery in my fridge that he doesn't know what to do with.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  Because it's too big.

• 3:18Jessie Ware?

  He doesn't know what to do with it. So I'm like, right, okay.

• 3:21Speaker 03

  Celery soup.

• 3:22Jessie Ware?

  We're all having celery soup or celery juice tomorrow. But yeah, anyway. Harlan Coben, coming up on Table manners.

• 3:38Jessie Ware?

  Harlan Coben.

• 3:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 3:39Jessie Ware?

  You're here.

• 3:40Speaker 04

  I am. I'm thrilled to be here.

• 3:41Jessie Ware?

  And you're very tall.

• 3:43Speaker 04

  I know, I'm taller than I look in the book jackets.

• 3:44Jessie Ware?

  You are.

• 3:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  How tall are you?

• 3:48Speaker 04

  Six, four. I don't know what that is in years. From one ninety-four, one ninety-five.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  Did you ever play basketball when you were younger?

• 3:53Jessie Ware?

  Of course he did.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Jesse, Myron.

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 3:58Jessie Ware?

  Do you wanna just go straight into it, Mum?

• 4:00Speaker 03

  I've got to. I feel I'm meeting Myron Bolotov.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  Oh, that's so sweet. Aren't you kind?

• 4:04Speaker 03

  Is he modeled on you?

• 4:06Speaker 04

  He is with wish fulfillment. Yeah. Writers hate to admit that. You know, they know, oh, no, it's complete fiction. But he's me with wish fulfillment. You know, I played basketball. He was better. He's funnier, he's smarter.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Did you have an injury?

• 4:18Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I never, it wasn't good enough.

• 4:20Speaker 03

  And you weren't a P I after.

• 4:22Speaker 04

  No, I wasn't a private eye. No, I just, I went into making them up instead.

• 4:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, well done.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 4:28Speaker 03

  But I'm in love with him.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  So I'm kind of in love with you.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  That's great.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Just want to put that out there now.

• 4:34Speaker 04

  I don't want to say anything, but yes, I'm, I'm Myron Bolitar. Not that I do this.

• 4:38Jessie Ware?

  This is gonna be a bit like misery in a minute. She's gonna, she'll debate you and you're gonna have a good story to write.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  And you have to stay here forever.

• 4:44Speaker 04

  I'd love to.

• 4:45Speaker 03

  But we're both very big fans because we've read so many of your books.

• 4:49Speaker 04

  Oh, that's so flattering. How nice. Thank you.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Why isn't he a TV series yet?

• 4:53Speaker 04

  We're working on it actually over at Netflix.

• 4:54Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, isn't, yeah, it's in the works.

• 4:57Speaker 04

  We are work, you know, he's, he's harder for me to let go of than the standalones.

• 5:01Jessie Ware?

  Interesting.

• 5:01Speaker 04

  If you don't like what you did love, Michelle Keegan in Fool Me Once, it's one book. You know, if you don't love Jimmy Nesbitt coming out in Runway, one book, one character, I've only written them once. But Myron is my, kind of my heart, and I'm very nervous about that series.

• 5:15Jessie Ware?

  Okay, but so who, are you allowed to say who would be your dream Myron to play?

• 5:19Speaker 04

  That's the problem. I don't have a dream.

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Oh, I can work out.

• 5:23Speaker 04

  Can you?

• 5:23Jessie Ware?

  Okay, let's, let's.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Well, it depends when we're starting him and how old he is when we start.

• 5:28Speaker 04

  That's one of the questions, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, he could be anywhere. The series starts him around twenty eight to thirty. He's now fifties.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:35Speaker 04

  I've aged him, not in real time, he's aged slower than I have.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course, obviously.

• 5:40Jessie Ware?

  So do you feel like you are, you put yourself in a character every time? Is there a bit of you in every character?

• 5:48Speaker 04

  Even the bad guys, even the villains. I mean, there's always a little, there has to be a little piece of you. I mean, writing is about empathy and getting in other people's heads. So you have to, I have to, you know, I have to make the villain is, is understandable in my own head as the heroes. It's part of what you do. You, it's not sympathy, which is something different. It's empathy, which is understanding what that person thinks or feels. Well, that was deep. Give me a moment. Okay, we're okay now.

• 6:12Jessie Ware?

  I like it. So let's talk about your new Netflix show, which is coming out on the first of January. So everyone can binge it.

• 6:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 6:20Jessie Ware?

  Um, Runaway. It's like, it's, are you Jimmy Nesbitt's character in that?

• 6:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 6:24Speaker 04

  Well, it's hard to think of it now as Jimmy Nesbitt, isn't it? But, uh, yes, we call it, you know, it's January one, so instead of Netflix and chill, it's hangover and chill, I guess.

• 6:33Jessie Ware?

  And stress out? No.

• 6:35Speaker 04

  Just sit there and.

• 6:36Jessie Ware?

  I don't think it's, well, it's chilling.

• 6:38Speaker 04

  It's chilling.

• 6:39Jessie Ware?

  I mean, so, yeah, it's, it's really exciting. We've seen three episodes.

• 6:44Speaker 04

  Oh, have you? Oh, great. Oh, thank you. You ready for more?

• 6:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I just, just demanded we get the rest of them.

• 6:51Jessie Ware?

  I just don't, you're so prolific and, but like, I just wanna understand how your brain works. Because how do you manage to do so many twists and turns? Are you pretty like, I wanna know a day in the life of Harlan Coben, like, is it, is it full of drama and jeopardy?

• 7:07Speaker 04

  I mean.

• 7:08Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, but I'm not like, a song is three and a half minutes, maybe.

• 7:12Speaker 04

  But still.

• 7:12Jessie Ware?

  And it's about one thing. I don't like, have about five different subplots going at the same time.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  This one especially.

• 7:20Jessie Ware?

  This one's full of love.

• 7:21Speaker 04

  As you know, Ray, we had not just James Nesbitt, but Ruth Jones.

• 7:24Jessie Ware?

  She's the private investigator.

• 7:26Speaker 04

  How great is Ruth in this, by the way?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  We've had her on the podcast.

• 7:28Jessie Ware?

  She's fantastic.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Isn't she a wonderful woman?

• 7:30Speaker 04

  Well, James Nesbitt told me he was, been on the podcast.

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, he has.

• 7:33Speaker 04

  I was with him today and I know Ruth, Ruth.

• 7:35Jessie Ware?

  Ruth's been on it.

• 7:36Speaker 03

  And we've had many on the podcast.

• 7:38Speaker 04

  Mini Driver is also, and yeah, so it's such an honor and a thrill to be working. And they all have, you know, um.

• 7:44Speaker 03

  They're all great actors, yeah.

• 7:45Speaker 04

  I can't wait to see people to see Ruth in this because it's such a different role for her, don't you think?

• 7:48Speaker 03

  She's a bit Miss Marple, isn't she in it? Yeah. But she's understated, but very clever.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's the clever thing about it.

• 7:56Speaker 04

  I'll wait to see what happens in her stories. Oh, I can't wait for you to see it.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  I can't wait. Well, I've seen all three.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Okay, there's eight altogether.

• 8:03Speaker 03

  Oh, there's eight. We've got another five, Jazz.

• 8:06Jessie Ware?

  Right.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  That'll keep me going.

• 8:07Jessie Ware?

  Good. Do you, um, do you, I mean, okay, we're gonna talk about food in a bit, but like, is that, like, how long, how long does a book, which is the quickest book that you've ever written?

• 8:20Speaker 04

  It usually takes me about nine months. I compare it to childbirth.

• 8:23Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 04

  The best part is the idea.

• 8:26Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:28Speaker 04

  Chris, let me swear it away. But, um, and in some days you feel great, and some days you feel like there's a dumb truck parked under your bladder. And at the end, you just want the darn thing out. You know, at the end, it's like, you know.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  Let's finish it.

• 8:39Speaker 04

  Get it out, you know, get this thing out.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Do you write at home or do you have a studio where you go to to write?

• 8:44Speaker 04

  You know, most writers have like an office or a special spot. I can write any place and I use up places. I do whatever's working. So if like a certain coffee shop is working, whatever, I will be there until it stops working, then I'll change. At one time, in fact, when when when I wrote The Stranger, uh, I one day I took for the very first time those rideshare like Ubers first were coming into. So I took one into New York and I felt guilty about spending the money. You know, you're justifying in your head, well, by the time I pay for parking, by the time I do this. And so I sat in the back with my notepad and I started to write and I wrote really well. So for three weeks I took Ubers everywhere and I finished The Stranger in the back of an Uber.

• 9:23Jessie Ware?

  You're obsessive.

• 9:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm not weird. Yeah, that way, yes.

• 9:26Jessie Ware?

  Do you write in, do you write in a book or you're typing it?

• 9:29Speaker 04

  Both. I I like to, my, I like my first draft, ten pages or so at a time, to be handwritten because there's something freeing and childlike about writing with your hand still.

• 9:40Jessie Ware?

  Do you use pencil or pen?

• 9:41Speaker 04

  Pen mostly, but I can't, I I carry with me a pencil, a pen, like a magic marker, like I carry everything with me at all times.

• 9:49Jessie Ware?

  And do you write in a Moleskine book or just an A four yellow pad?

• 9:53Speaker 04

  Oh, I love these questions, but I have both in mind. I I to that way, I can't, I have no excuse. I can't say, oh, you know, I don't have exactly what I want. So I have a yellow legal pad. I have a nicer kind of a notebook and I carry them with me in my backpack almost all the time.

• 10:08Jessie Ware?

  I don't know, but don't you feel I I've tried writing in books and I think it's so romantic. When I'm writing songs and like, you know, I'll get my Moleskine and then if I haven't, if it's not good enough, then I feel like I've spoiled the book. Do you never feel that?

• 10:23Speaker 04

  I I.

• 10:23Jessie Ware?

  No, because it was pretty good.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  Darling, he might want some wine.

• 10:27Jessie Ware?

  Are you ready for some wine?

• 10:28Speaker 04

  Sure, why not do wine? But I don't I don't know if you have this or, you know, or not, but I also, one of the things I love about the when you're doing it with your hand is you can also cross out and still see. You delete, it's kind of gone forever. I draw arrows, I draw lines. And now the other thing, this is very important, if you, a little writing advice, if you want to try it. Again, as you know, you ask ten writers how they do it, you get eleven different answers, right? But if I write by hand and then I put it in the computer, now my first draft is actually my second draft. Right, so I've already cut down on one draft. So by the time, that's how I do it, I write ten fifteen pages, then I said, oh, enough of that, I'm gonna put it into

• 11:11Speaker 04

  the computer, and so, ready, I've already done a second draft before I've even done a first draft.

• 11:16Jessie Ware?

  But what comes first, the plot or the characters?

• 11:20Speaker 04

  You know, it's a chicken and egg question, but I think, you know, most writers will answer character, but the real answer, they're lying. The real answer is plot. If you just invent a character, it's not gonna go anyplace unless you have an idea. Unless the book's kind of boring. But, character is more important than plot, but you have to think plot. You were asking about Runaway before, the one that's coming out January first. So the idea came to me, two different ways. This is what I mean by anything can stimulate an idea. But I, my teenage daughter, who now actually writes on the show, she wrote two of the episodes, Charlotte. I, I found some, after a party, I found some cannabis paraphernalia in her room.

• 12:00Jessie Ware?

  So she's Paige?

• 12:02Speaker 04

  So, well, actually, I probably do more cannabis than she has lately, but that's a whole nother story, we'll talk about another time, or later on. But, my mind spirals, well, what if, what if my daughter was on drugs and I couldn't think of how to start the book? I have an apartment near Central Park, and I'm sitting on a bench in Central Park, in Strawberry Fields. And I'm thinking, how do I start this book? And, all of a sudden, a busker starts playing music. And I look up and I think, wow, what if I, I'm the father and I look up and that busker, the person playing the music, was my daughter who's been missing for six months? Wow, what would I do? What a cool way to start a TV show or a book. And as you guys know, that's what happens to James Nesbitt in the very first scene.

• 12:45Speaker 04

  His daughter's been on drugs for six months, he goes to the park, he sits on that bench, and he sees her.

• 12:50Jessie Ware?

  And she's singing an Elbow song.

• 12:52Speaker 04

  Isn't that great?

• 12:53Jessie Ware?

  And Guy Gavie has also been on the podcast, and I text him as soon as I was watching it, I was like, oh my god, they're using your song, and it sounds really good.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  And after she sings it, they actually play the real song as she's running away. Well, yeah, I love the way they film that scene.

• 13:07Jessie Ware?

  So, so you say you write anywhere, and whatever's working?

• 13:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 13:11Jessie Ware?

  How inconvenient is that for your wife and your, and your family?

• 13:15Speaker 04

  They're used to me being like a little rude.

• 13:17Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 13:17Speaker 04

  You know, I just sort of like, whoa, whoa, guys, quiet for a second. And I just start, it's just the way my mind works. So I'm always thinking, life to me is a writer's prompt, a what if, something that goes on. I ask what if all of the time. But, you know, I'm also home all the time. When we were raising the kids, I was actually the one more home. My wife's a pediatrician. So she had an actual real job. And I stayed home and was that, was that an actual stay at home, Dad? You know, there's a lot of, there are a lot of men that go, oh, no, I do more responsibility. You're fifty fifty. And when you start asking, let's face it, the wife still does more, much more. But in our case, we really were pretty close to. No, it's true. And I got to play, you know, the other funny thing is you got to play like sort of the, the male equivalent of dumb blonde when you're the only father staying at home.

• 14:02Speaker 04

  So like when my kids would forget their lunch or something like that, and I would go and the ladies in the office at school would be, oh, that's so sweet, Mr. Colvin, you're trying. A mother does the same thing, they're calling like the police on them, you know, like, how could you be such a negligent mother? But it was cute. I'm like, you know me, I'm a forgetful dumb man. I'm sorry, I'm trying my best. So you get away with that kind of thing.

• 14:22Jessie Ware?

  It's funny, isn't it? Cause Minnie Driver's, uh, isn't she a pediatrician in?

• 14:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:26Jessie Ware?

  In that, okay.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  I do.

• 14:27Jessie Ware?

  Interesting. I'm interested to see what happens to Minnie.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  Uh, yes.

• 14:30Jessie Ware?

  Cause I feel like we, there's yet, there's more to, okay.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. There's a lot more, it's a, it's banana pants. It's a lot of stuff.

• 14:37Jessie Ware?

  And also, um, Gone Before Goodbye.

• 14:40Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:40Speaker 03

  She's a doctor.

• 14:41Jessie Ware?

  Maggie is a doctor. Well, she's struck off.

• 14:44Speaker 03

  Oh, with Reese with the spoon.

• 14:45Speaker 04

  Oh, I know, she was just on, yeah, I know. Reese was just on, like before we came, we came back.

• 14:49Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, I'm interested by how, cause I know that Reese had the plot or an idea.

• 14:53Speaker 04

  She had the, and the character, she had the idea of making it a doctor.

• 14:56Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 14:57Speaker 04

  Her, as she probably I think told you, maybe on her podcast. Her parents are, are both in the medical field. Her father was a, an army surgeon and her mom, an army nurse, military nurse. So that's where she came up. She had the idea of it being a doctor.

• 15:11Jessie Ware?

  So she says, look, I've got this character, I've got this idea. I mean, you're either going to.

• 15:20Jessie Ware?

  Accept that and be like, I can work with this. This is interesting. Was it easy to then enter into that story when somebody else has kind of given you a character idea? Was it a very different experience?

• 15:33Speaker 04

  It was very strange. All the way through, it was sort of strange because, you know, I know Reese and this sounds like the most immodest. We met a number of years ago at a, at a conference and we were both kind of fanboying, fangirling over each other, which was really sweet. And we keep in touch. This is the most immodest sounding story in the world, but Reese called me on the phone and said, I'm going to be in New York. I have this idea. I want to kind of talk to you about this doing together. And this sounds, I was very hesitant. I'm not that guy. I don't, I collaborate on TV shows. I don't collaborate on novels. I've never done it before. I really didn't really have an interest in doing it.

• 16:10Speaker 04

  It's one, one is a collaborative process. One is a solo process. So it's kind of like, how do I tell Reese, I don't really want to, you know, it's not for me. So Reese came to my apartment in New York and she started pitching me the idea and I'm like, oh dang, that's good. We could do something with that. And I grabbed my yellow legal pad out and we started, I said, you know what else we could do? We could do that. And she's like, we can do this. And we went back and forth for three hours. And at the end, Reese looks at me and goes, so are you going to do it? And I'm like, yeah, let's do it. And we had such fun. She's such a delight. She's so smart. She knows story as well as anybody I've ever met. She knows how to handle, you could see why she's a boss.

• 16:51Speaker 04

  Right? Even when you sat with her, she just knows how to handle people. Yeah. She's like, like the best life coach.

• 16:57Jessie Ware?

  She's inspiring. She really is.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:00Speaker 03

  How old were you when you wrote your first novel?

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Wrote or published? I mean, I started to, I mean, my first published novel was accepted when I was 26. So, uh, but I started my first, I had three, I think, failed ones or what? I shouldn't say failed ones because they're not failures. Um, actually, the best way to learn to write a novel is to write a novel.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Obviously, yeah.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  Well, people don't really know that.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Did you do English at university?

• 17:26Speaker 04

  I didn't. It was, I was a political science major, which is a euphemism for, I have no idea what I'm going to do with the rest of my life.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  Which university did you go to?

• 17:36Speaker 04

  Amherst College in Massachusetts.

• 17:38Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. So is that far? Did you grow up in New Jersey?

• 17:41Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Um, Jewish family?

• 17:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. Friday night dinners?

• 17:46Speaker 04

  Well, no, this is, it's kind of funny because I know we'll be talking quite a bit about food. My mother was a very modern woman. She was an early feminist. She marched with Gloria Steinem. And let me also preface this by saying, a fantastic and wonderful mother. Both of my parents died too young. A wonderful woman, but the world's worst cook and hated cooking and made no bones about it.

• 18:08Speaker 03

  I think Myron's mother is a bad cook, yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  Yes, not to get too heavy, but so I lost my parents at a fairly young age and Myron and Myron's parents are my parents.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, yeah, I thought that, yes.

• 18:21Speaker 04

  And if they had survived.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:23Speaker 04

  This is what I imagine my relationship would be with them.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:26Speaker 04

  So I live vicariously, not to get too, and I get too melodramatic during those scenes when I write them. They're a little bit corny, but.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  They're not.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  Oh, thank you. That's sweet. Thank you. So that's my parents.

• 18:37Speaker 03

  Anyone who's had a Jewish mother or a Jewish father, yeah, you feel that.

• 18:41Speaker 04

  Well, thank you. That's.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, although I think my mom was a better cook than your mom.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  No, my mom was, obviously. My mother, my mother was a terrible cook. My grandmother was a terrible cook. We came from a long line. In fact, before I came here, I asked my brothers, I go, did mom make anything that was good? And they were like, no, our favorite dinner was when dad made scrambled eggs. That's how bad of a cook. She made this meatloaf with like store bought like tomato sauce and ragu where she just like, it was like the worst quality meat and just sort of poured that on. So we have nightmares basically about the food that she actually cooked.

• 19:13Jessie Ware?

  She was busy fighting the sister.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  That's, well, that's part of it. I mean, I grew up, you'll love this. I grew up, this is in the seventies, okay? I had a, we had a bumper sticker and T-shirts that said, my favorite one was, women who seek to be equal to men, lack ambition.

• 19:32Speaker 04

  This is what I grew up with.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  But what's your heritage? So Holland, Co.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Coben was Cohen.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  Cohen?

• 19:39Speaker 04

  Before my father, my father changed it because my mother was like, there's too many Cohens where we were living.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 19:44Speaker 04

  And so he changed it to Coben.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  But are you Polish?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  Mostly we are, well, my, my grandfather was born in Jerusalem and his, we go date at least to the eighteen hundreds in Jerusalem.

• 19:56Speaker 04

  In the nineteen eighteen nineteen twenty. And the rest is basically if you watch the movie, if you watch Fiddler on the Roof, that's my upbringing.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 20:04Speaker 04

  The Pale Settlement.

• 20:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, shattles, yeah.

• 20:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, and in fact, my grandparents, my grandmother on my father's side never spoke English. She only spoke Yiddish. And when she did see Fiddler on the Roof, not long before she died, my father told me that she ran out of the theater kind of crying because it was like her life story. She felt that she really was relating to it. So three of the grandparents are probably that. And then the one came out of Jerusalem.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  What's your favorite Yiddish word?

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Do you use it?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  I can't, no, I don't really use them too much unless I'm. But my favorite Yiddish expression, which I say in English, because I use it in almost every book, because I think it's genius. It's four words, man plans, God laughs. Man plans, God laughs, and always a favorite.

• 20:50Speaker 03

  So didn't come from great chefs. Are you a good chef?

• 20:55Speaker 04

  No, I I'm a great eater. But I'm not, I'm not. And, you know, I actually find it like funny because growing up, no men cooked back in those days, except the great chefs. It was a very sexist thing when you think about it, right? But nowadays, like all of my friends think they're great cooks and they're not. Like all the men, like because they want, they want to seem like they're in touch with this sort of a thing. They they kind of get into it and it's almost like they like instead of sports, they get into that.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  So they invite you around and they're washing the lobster off in the sink.

• 21:28Speaker 04

  Yes, it's performative.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  It's all performative.

• 21:31Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? It feels very performative.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  A man with a barbecue is insufferable. I hate to say it, and I don't want to sound mean, but I think a lot of male cooking is performative. Oh. They, it's always very flamboyant. And it's always, oh, let me do this. And I'll just, they don't follow recipes. They think they can jug a bit of this and a glug of that. And yeah.

• 21:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't want to goof on on men's, but like I see the same thing with like, it's like the Saturday dad in the park. And he's talking really loudly to his kid so everybody knows he's being, he's the dad. You know that dad that you always see in the park? And he's like, he's like, you know, oh, I. Let my wife rest today for fourteen minutes while I took you out like it's a big deal. He wants everybody to notice it and get applause for it.

• 22:13Jessie Ware?

  Your mum did a really good job on you being a feminist. You're like, yeah, a real feminist, yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 03

  So you live in New York now?

• 22:21Speaker 04

  Yes, New Jersey and New York.

• 22:22Speaker 03

  Oh, you have that two places?

• 22:24Speaker 04

  Yes, well, New Jersey, people don't realize, like, the suburbs of New Jersey are literally thirty minutes from New York City.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, my niece used to live in Cliffside Park.

• 22:32Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, it's not too far from where I live.

• 22:33Speaker 03

  And you go across on the boat?

• 22:35Jessie Ware?

  I think I've sung in Hoboken.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  Oh, yes.

• 22:37Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, which is really nice.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, Hoboken's cool.

• 22:39Jessie Ware?

  Um, so what is the best thing about New Jersey?

• 22:43Speaker 04

  You know, uh, it's New Jersey, I I remember an induction into the New Jersey Hall of Fame. And Bruce Springsteen was talking about Danny DeVito, the actor. And he was describing why Danny DeVito was like New Jersey. And he's like, Danny's tough, New Jersey's tough. Danny's small, New Jersey's small. Danny's dense, New Jersey's dense. We have like a little bit of an edge to us. We are the, I call it the S's, Sopranos, Springsteen and Sinatra.

• 23:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're all from New Jersey.

• 23:14Jessie Ware?

  That's it.

• 23:15Speaker 04

  And they're all like, we're kind of, half of us is a suburb of New York, half of us is a suburb from Philly. And we have a little chip on our shoulders because people don't, you know, think we're our own identity. And it's a lot of, but it's also a lot of suburbs, a lot of what I've written about. Myron lives in Livingston, New Jersey. And and so that kind of suburban life where you kind of go out. And you want the picket fence and you want the two car garage and you want to raise two point seven kids. And there's a bar, there's a barbecue in the backyard and there's a basketball court in the driveway. And it's corny and yet it's the American dream and beautiful. And both of those things really appealed to me as a writer.

• 23:51Jessie Ware?

  I, I, I love that picture that's painted of that, totally.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's, I have a romantic and skewed version of it.

• 24:00Jessie Ware?

  Do you, do you have to love Springsteen if you're from New Jersey?

• 24:04Speaker 04

  It's not a state law, but maybe it should be.

• 24:06Jessie Ware?

  Right, okay.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  I do, I I certain, I love, I love Springsteen.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Do you?

• 24:11Speaker 04

  I've probably seen him. I just saw the new one, yeah.

• 24:14Speaker 03

  We saw it.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  Did you like it?

• 24:15Speaker 03

  We had him on.

• 24:17Jessie Ware?

  Not Springsteen.

• 24:17Speaker 04

  Yes, Jeremy, right?

• 24:18Jessie Ware?

  Jeremy. Did you ever go to any of those concerts that Springsteen used to do in like the local bars? Like, cause I feel like, well, you're, you're younger.

• 24:25Speaker 04

  I've, I've been, I'm not, no, I'm not, but I, I, I've probably been, I'm, I, I'm not one of those guys who counts, but I was realizing lately, I've probably been to a hundred Springsteen shows. Cause for a while also, it was really difficult to get tickets at one point when he came back. And I was friends with a couple of the guys in the band, so I could get a certain amount of seats each night, but I had to, I had to go. They wouldn't just let me buy them for somebody else. So I did a ten night stand once at Madison Square Garden, I think two thousand, and I went all ten nights.

• 24:56Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 24:57Speaker 04

  Fantastic.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Ten nights.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  You know all the words to all the songs.

• 25:02Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Pretty much.

• 25:04Jessie Ware?

  Probably by the third night.

• 25:04Speaker 03

  Okay, which is your karaoke Springsteen song if you had to?

• 25:08Speaker 04

  Um, probably Jungleland or, uh, Still, Still Born to Run is still a, a favorite that.

• 25:15Speaker 03

  Did you like Nebraska?

• 25:17Speaker 04

  I did, but I, you know, it's, it's not my, to be honest with you, it's not my favorite of Bruce's albums, even though I, and it's sort of like, again, this feels performative when people say, oh, I, I listen to Nebraska. I wouldn't, you know, I'm not, I'm not into Born the USA or Born to Run. I'm, you know, I'm into Nebraska. I get it. And there's some great songs on Nebraska. And Atlantic City is one of my favorite songs of all time, but, um, no, it's not my favorite.

• 25:42Jessie Ware?

  I'm gonna sort out the dinner.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, agreed.

• 25:44Jessie Ware?

  But whilst I sort it out.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  I'm gonna carry on.

• 25:46Jessie Ware?

  You're gonna carry on asking about food.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  Oh, food?

• 25:49Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  I can't talk about anything else.

• 25:50Jessie Ware?

  Well, no.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  I was going to, I was.

• 25:52Jessie Ware?

  You do our job.

• 25:53Speaker 03

  I was going to cast the whole series of the, the Myron Bolitar series.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  I do need your mother's help with this, just so you know. Let's not pick on Lenny, don't you?

• 26:02Speaker 03

  But I was also thinking, we have a lot in common, cause you work with your daughter.

• 26:06Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 26:06Speaker 03

  Which is what I do.

• 26:08Speaker 04

  Oh, do you? No, I'm kidding.

• 26:12Speaker 03

  Um, how do you find that?

• 26:15Speaker 04

  Much better than I thought. It wasn't my idea to do it in the first place. I work with a woman named Nicholas Schindler from Key Street Productions. She's probably your best TV producer. To give you an idea of some of the shows that Nicola has created.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:29Speaker 04

  Happy Valley, Last Tango in Halifax.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 26:33Speaker 04

  Queer as Folk. She, all, most of Sally's Sally's early shows and Russell Davies' shows, Nicholas Schindler is one of the producers on. So she works with the, with us three. So she's fantastic to work with and she had recognized my daughter's talent. And I just didn't think it would be smart to be having her. And she's like, no, we need this voice. We need her. And so Nicola brought her in to write on our shows. And then, I'm bragging about my own daughter, but Charlotte then had her own show called Dead Hot, which was on Amazon Prime here in the UK and still is. And now, now she's hard to get and difficult.

• 27:10Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 27:11Speaker 04

  So, you know, we, we, we don't, we keep distance. Yes. Now, after I, I taught her, right, this is what we do, right? We raise these kids.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  You raise these children and they overtake you.

• 27:21Speaker 04

  That's right. Let's, let's, let's bitch about having our children here overtake us. We did do a show in America called, which is Amazon Prime. You know, they always stick my, my name in front of it, which is a little embarrassing. But the name of the show is Harland Coben's Shelter. And Charlotte wrote most of that.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, that was young people.

• 27:37Speaker 04

  Young adult show. Yeah, it was a young adult show. Yeah, so that was, that was most, that was Charlotte.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  Fantastic.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  And we worked, because it was in New Jersey, we were on set together every day. And we get along great, but there is that parent dynamic. Like if I sort of snap at her a little bit, she gets, you know, you can't talk to me that way, Dad. I'm like, but you're the only one who talks to me like that, Charlotte. Because she's the only one who will clap back right at me. So, you know.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  All your, how many children do you have?

• 28:04Speaker 04

  I have four.

• 28:05Speaker 03

  Oh, they're all talented, right?

• 28:07Speaker 04

  Yes, they're all very talented, but in different ways. So Charlotte is a writer.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 04

  Ben, my number two, he actually runs the production end of my.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 28:17Speaker 04

  Business. My third is a Will, um, this is really braggy. He's a NASA, he's a NASA NASA flight control. He actually is a rocket scientist.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Oh, my gosh.

• 28:26Speaker 04

  He's twenty six years old or twenty seven years old.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Oh, my, right. A rocket scientist.

• 28:32Speaker 04

  He literally is a rocket. I know. And my fourth is, is uh, getting her master's degree in um, genetics. So the last two are sciencey take after my wife, probably the pediatrician or the first two.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Is she still working, your wife?

• 28:46Speaker 04

  She, well, yes, she's doing, she was for a while. Um, she just finished doing a job. She was the dean of admissions for Columbia University's Medical School.

• 28:56Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 28:56Speaker 04

  Um, and she just left that and is looking to see what medical thing she's going to do next. But she was, yeah, it was a big job having to pick who goes.

• 29:04Speaker 03

  So when you're converting a book into a screenplay, do you, are you very involved?

• 29:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  We have this team. I mentioned Nicholas Schindler from Key Street, Danny Brocklehurst, who writes the first couple and the last couple on all the shows.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:19Speaker 04

  And a man named Richard Fee. We call ourselves the core four. This is our, I think, our eighth show we've done together. The Five, Safe, The Stranger, Stay Close, Missing You, Fool Me Once, Lazarus.

• 29:32Speaker 03

  Fool Me Once, yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  And now this one, Runaway.

• 29:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, cause we just, I just watched the first episode of Lazarus, cause we'd had Bill Nighy on.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  And I was interested, and Sam Clapham, isn't it?

• 29:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  He's very good.

• 29:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's a pillar delight. The most delight.

• 29:48Speaker 03

  So.

• 29:50Speaker 04

  Oh, my goodness. I know. He is, I usually have dinner with him when I'm, I mean.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  Well, you're lucky, cause he usually eats alone.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  I know. Well, it's just the two, and when I invite somebody else along, he's not really that happy. He likes it, he likes it just the two of us. And he always arrives early with a book. He's always there first with a book. And, you know, Bill Nye, Bill Nye was the only time, I think, when I was actually writing something, when I wrote Lazarus, I pictured Bill Nye from day one. If I could get Bill Nye from day one. And the fact that when I, we asked him, he immediately said yes, and had read some of the stuff. And he was just. And you say, oh, you know, don't meet your heroes, but Bill was one where

• 30:31Speaker 03

  Oh, he's, yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 04

  He actually exceeded my expectations.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  He's a delight, isn't he?

• 30:36Speaker 04

  Besides supernatural charisma, he also has a genuine openness and vulnerability that,

• 30:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  You know, it's ridiculously charming to have in a friend.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  He's very self-effacing, isn't he? But very elegant.

• 30:48Speaker 04

  Looks fantastic.

• 30:50Jessie Ware?

  Well, I've never done this recipe, so actually we'll find out.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  This looks fantastic.

• 30:55Jessie Ware?

  So, yeah, this is like a tray bake of sorts. I'm quite into tray bakes because I basically, I was at a fashion awards last night and I wanted to make something gorgeous, so it's just been sitting in the oven for ages. It's a beef shin coconut curry. I hope you like it.

• 31:11Speaker 04

  Oh, it's wonderful.

• 31:12Jessie Ware?

  Oh, good. Mmm. Let me get some more.

• 31:14Speaker 04

  Oh, it's really wonderful.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  It's very fragrant, isn't it?

• 31:19Speaker 04

  Yes, that's what, exactly.

• 31:28Speaker 00

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• 31:41Speaker 01

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• 31:58Speaker 05

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• 32:34Jessie Ware?

  Last Supper. You're going to a desert island. Where you're not going to be able to have your favourite food.

• 32:43Speaker 04

  I'm not gonna be able to have my favourite food.

• 32:44Jessie Ware?

  No, no. This is the last supper before you're banished to a desert island. Without your typewriter or without your computer.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  No, he should allow.

• 32:53Jessie Ware?

  Okay, maybe you can have a notebook. But what are you gonna eat and drink? Starter, main, dessert and drink of choice.

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Wow. Okay. Um, I'm probably going to, if I have to think that many, I'm probably gonna mix and match. Because.

• 33:10Jessie Ware?

  Fine.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  So. I love foie gras. It sounds like I'm gonna go right early rich, but one of those sort of appetizer foie gras from certain Parisian restaurants that I just, I know that sounds so spoiled, doesn't it? Like here.

• 33:25Jessie Ware?

  But you spend a lot of time in Paris, don't you?

• 33:27Speaker 04

  I do a lot.

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Oh, tell us where to go on Monday.

• 33:29Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 33:30Jessie Ware?

  We're going, I'm taking Mum for her birthday.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  Oh, wow. All right, we'll find places to go. Um, how nice, you guys are going to Paris.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Just for the day. No, it's my present.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  That's so sweet.

• 33:41Jessie Ware?

  So foie gras in Paris, where are you going for it?

• 33:44Speaker 04

  That's a good question. You know, I haven't been there in a while, so um, I don't know which restaurants are still around and I'm drawing a blank at the ones I. I let, also, here's the thing, I don't, I'm not one of those who has tremendous loyalty to particular restaurants. I like to try different ones all the time. I, so one time when I was in France, I was going to a book festival in a town called Brie, which is known for its cuisine, way out, about three or four hours, I think, took us to get there. And like, um, one of the local papers had asked me about food and I mentioned how much I love foie gras. So we get there and literally every restaurant we go to, the chef comes out of the kitchen

• 34:27Speaker 04

  with his own special foie gras and puts it in front of me and stands over my shoulder.

• 34:33Jessie Ware?

  Oh, jeez.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  And that's not a meal, that's not a thing you wanna eat more than once a week.

• 34:37Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 04

  Tops, even if you love it, it's not, it's, and we had like three straight days where for two meals a day, I was so sick after it.

• 34:47Jessie Ware?

  You were like the ghost.

• 34:48Speaker 04

  Right, so it took me a little while by the end to, to go back to. Um foie gras, but I I just think the French do food great. I mean, they really do. But I've had a number of good three star Michelin's here also.

• 35:02Jessie Ware?

  Do you like a Michelin place? Like, do you like a tasting menu?

• 35:05Speaker 04

  Fat duck in the Waterside Inn, but you know, they're just interesting experiences that I've had um. Here in London, if you've been to either one of those.

• 35:13Jessie Ware?

  New York's great for food.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Of course, we're always, that's the thing, it's it's almost not like this. So this is a bad analogy, but I'm gonna make it anyway. I never reread books. I never watch a TV show I've already watched because there's so many things out there I hadn't seen yet. So a lot of times with restaurants, even if I love them, I wanna try something new.

• 35:34Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 35:35Speaker 04

  And similar to what we are doing tonight, I'm my, when people ask me what I want, when I go, I want what the chef thinks is best. I I I love.

• 35:45Jessie Ware?

  Do you eat everything?

• 35:46Speaker 04

  I eat everything, so there's nothing I don't eat. So I ask, I'm always wanting to ask the chef. What is your favorite? What's the one you wanna dazzle me with?

• 35:55Jessie Ware?

  Has that ever backfired?

• 35:58Jessie Ware?

  Foie gras. Yeah.

• 36:00Speaker 04

  When I when I got too much foie gras, but not really. I mean, um. I I'm trying to think of some instance when it has, but there's nothing I really don't eat. So I I love to experiment with food. I think that's part of the fun and the joy is surprise me. And I got to one time eat at um, what's the very famous restaurant in Spain, the one that was number one in the world forever and ever? Bully. I mean, I don't know if you ever had the luck to go there.

• 36:28Jessie Ware?

  No.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  This is, it's kind of a funny story, but my my, I published in Spain. And my older brother, my younger brother who lives here in in England, he's lived here for thirty years. We were going there when it was at its height. And he goes, as brothers do, I know you think you're really cool, but there's no way, my boss can't get into bully. There's no way you can get a bully. It's a year and a half waitlist. So I called my publisher. I'm like, there's gotta be a way, just so I can stick it in my brother's face. You get, you know how it is, getting into bully. And he goes, oh, not a problem. We actually publish his books. It won't be a problem at all. So we get there and we get to go to Buly and we arrive there and my brother who's a foodie is just like in shock.

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Did you take him with you?

• 37:08Speaker 04

  Of course, that was the whole thing, you're all going, all, I have two brothers and all three of us went with our families. And we, you know, with one of our families, our wives, it was not pretty young kids or we had young kids at the time. And we get there and they we get greeted by the owner and he says, oh, we have three different tables for you, Harlan. You can sit either in the center of the restaurant or you could sit in the kitchen or have a private terrace overlooking the ocean. And I'm just looking at my brother like this. And I go to him, Craig, which one, which one would you like to to eat at in which food? And he was like just face to my, so I said to the owner, well, what do you think? He goes, well, it's thirty six courses. So I was in the first, they're like this bit, they're like this bit.

• 37:50Speaker 04

  First twenty four, why don't you sit in the kitchen and watch and the last twelve, sit outside on a deck and enjoy the view. And I'm like, Craig, does that sound like a good idea? So, you know, I'm really sticking it to him as you can, as you would, as you would. And so, but that was a perfect meal in a way because besides being great, what he did, every, every taste was a surprise. There was something that looked like an olive that tasted like an Oreo cookie. It was like that kind of a meal and I love being, so I'm always, I like to be, I like adventurous.

• 38:19Jessie Ware?

  That's why you like Heston Blimble as well, man, because like the, the kind of.

• 38:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 38:24Speaker 03

  Snail.

• 38:25Jessie Ware?

  Meat fruit or, you know, it's.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  Yes. Darling, could I have some water?

• 38:29Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, sure.

• 38:30Speaker 04

  I mean, not every day.

• 38:31Jessie Ware?

  No, sure. So did we get your main, actually? You're gonna go, are you gonna go with?

• 38:37Speaker 03

  Are you gonna have?

• 38:38Jessie Ware?

  Chef's choice. No.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  I'm gonna have.

• 38:41Speaker 03

  For a starter, yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 04

  Um, boy, that's a really a tough one. I think the thing I I end up ordering most, if that's a fair way of putting it.

• 38:50Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 04

  It's a really good pounded down veal Milanese.

• 38:53Jessie Ware?

  Oh.

• 38:54Speaker 04

  But I mean, like a really good one.

• 38:56Jessie Ware?

  Have you got a sweet tooth?

• 38:58Speaker 04

  Well, not really, but you know, it's funny, I was thinking this the other day, I went to a restaurant in New York that had one of those. Now it's very big to have tasting menus, every restaurant, and then they upsell you. It's almost like you get buying a car, right? You know, don't you want the better wheels? So, you know, you order it and maybe it's eighty five dollars for that. And then there's like, oh, but you want, if you get the wagyu, it's fifteen and they're upselling you. But what I was thinking when I was there, and I'm gonna ask you guys if you guys agree. I don't like like fancy desserts. I'd rather have like a vanilla ice cream sundae if I'm going to do it. Or something more basic. When they serve me some kind of exotic dessert.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  I'm more of a basic guy, like put put I put ice cream on a pecan pie or an apple pie. That's it. That's as fancy as I want to get or a sundae. Are you with me on this?

• 39:49Jessie Ware?

  I'm with you and I'm also really glad that you just said pecan pie because that's what you're having for Pudd.

• 39:54Speaker 04

  Really?

• 39:55Jessie Ware?

  Yes.

• 39:56Speaker 04

  Damn.

• 39:56Jessie Ware?

  And I have to say, I have not made it. I've done a Nora Ephron where I've bought it. Cause that's how she said to do good hosting. You you make, but you also rely on other people that are better than you. So um it's an Ottolenghi pecan pie and it's really, really good. So I'm really glad that that's what you're gonna have.

• 40:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, no.

• 40:14Jessie Ware?

  You can have it with ice cream too.

• 40:16Speaker 04

  This on dessert though, like I don't, you know, like sometimes you get these fancy meringues or whatever and it's just like.

• 40:21Jessie Ware?

  No, deconstructed. I don't want it. I'd like it constructed, please.

• 40:24Speaker 04

  Thank you. I'm so.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  I don't know. I think when you see some very creative pastry chefs and it looks so beautiful.

• 40:32Speaker 04

  It looks beautiful and I'm gonna get a lot of hate for that from people out there.

• 40:35Jessie Ware?

  You're gonna get a lot of hate for this whole menu, Harlan. You went with foie gras and then veal.

• 40:40Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 40:40Jessie Ware?

  And then you've invented everything.

• 40:42Speaker 04

  I was feeling more chicken, chicken meringue. Let's change it to chicken meringue so I don't get in trouble and with the with the.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  Would you have an egg on top?

• 40:49Speaker 04

  I also, um yeah, I do like the egg on top.

• 40:52Jessie Ware?

  Hmm.

• 40:52Speaker 04

  Another great one is the is um Carbonara. I I love Carbonara sauce, but I have, I don't know if she's known in this country, but. There's a chef, an American TV chef named Rachel Ray. It's quite popular in America and she's a close friend. And she makes it or the way she told me that you have to make it. Again, I don't make things. She people tell me. But you don't make any cream. The mistake that most people make is cream. You're supposed to use the water from the pasta.

• 41:18Jessie Ware?

  Making motion.

• 41:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, and so it actually is somewhat healthy too. I know not that that's necessarily a factor in our in our discussion. But you know, also the big one in America right now is the, my kids love it. We we do this all the time is the Omakase's. Which is the tasting menu of the Japanese. Um, you know, things like that.

• 41:38Speaker 03

  Are you big in Japan as well?

• 41:40Speaker 04

  Um, I don't sell as well in Japan as I I do elsewhere, but I'm published in Japan.

• 41:45Jessie Ware?

  Where do, where's like your best place to sell?

• 41:48Speaker 04

  France and France, Poland, and it's France and Poland per per capita are my two biggest countries.

• 41:53Jessie Ware?

  And and and lots of your um books have been um made into French dramas, haven't they?

• 41:58Speaker 04

  And Polish, actually.

• 41:58Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 41:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's three Netflix Polish.

• 42:00Jessie Ware?

  Oh, really?

• 42:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's three.

• 42:02Jessie Ware?

  I love Poland.

• 42:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I do too. Isn't fun?

• 42:05Jessie Ware?

  They're lovely.

• 42:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  And you can eat pierogies.

• 42:08Speaker 04

  And they treat you well.

• 42:09Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  This is, that's the kind of thing, like when I go to, as soon as I go to Warsaw, pierogies and vodka, let's do it. I want to do what you want to do.

• 42:15Jessie Ware?

  Totally.

• 42:16Speaker 04

  Take me to your place. That's how I am as a food person. I want it. I want that. I want what's good locally.

• 42:21Jessie Ware?

  What's your drink of choice?

• 42:23Speaker 04

  Lately, bourbon. Yeah, lately I've been a bourbon guy, and I'm not a big drinker.

• 42:28Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 42:29Speaker 04

  We have the Hebrew faith, they're not good.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  I I've broken that spell.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Sort of my mom, but I have, you know, I have two drinks I try taking my pants off over my head. It's not a pretty sight, so.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  No, I like wine.

• 42:42Jessie Ware?

  Well, if we were opening, if we were opening your fridge.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 42:45Jessie Ware?

  We were coming over to yours, what would we find in your fridge staples?

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Well, here's the thing, my wife's an excellent cook.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 42:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I married an excellent cook.

• 42:54Speaker 03

  Well done. Is that why you married her?

• 42:57Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  But she's, yeah, and she's one of those ones who can pick up and do anything very quickly, and you give her a few ingredients and she can make anything uh fast, well, and but the one thing she does like is she likes to be as fresh as possible. So we have very little in our fridge because we're ordering it that day. If we're having it that night, it hasn't been sitting in the refrigerator for three or four days. So the only thing we have in the fridge is more like long term-ish kind of stuff, so in our fridge we'll have mayonnaises and ketchups, but it doesn't really have that nice piece of chicken with a nice piece. Yeah, we have the, but those come in like almost every day, so it's not sitting in the fridge very long. You know, the crisper will have it. We do, we do the vegetables, we do

• 43:42Speaker 04

  uh various dishes. She made this dish, not dissimilar to this. It was a this with a little Chinese spin, chow fong kind of a thing that she made recently. She's very good with the the chicken Milanese, pounding it down quickly, doing all. So she's really very talented. And I mentioned before this this.

• 44:00Jessie Ware?

  She's got four children. She's got to be good.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  She's good, very fast. Yeah, yeah. So she's always been good and she loves to cook for people. You know, that that is one of her love languages.

• 44:09Jessie Ware?

  Where are you writing at the moment that you're that's working? Is anywhere working in London for you?

• 44:14Speaker 04

  So I I I've been here just I came in the day before yesterday.

• 44:19Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 04

  So I did media all day today and we'd had the premiere for Runaway.

• 44:22Jessie Ware?

  Sorry. Yeah.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no. It's been a delight. But I wrote the entire flight over. I'm doing my first sort of nonfiction book. It's kind of a

• 44:33Jessie Ware?

  Ooh.

• 44:33Speaker 04

  partial writer's writing guide and partial memoir, a little bit of both.

• 44:37Jessie Ware?

  Wow.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  Um. Because what I realized when I was doing, you mentioned the BBC Maestro class we were talking about earlier. When I was doing it, I'm always that writer says, oh, I just make it up. I just make it up. But I realized everything actually did come from my life. So I'm trying to write both a memoir. And I wrote two books last year, and that's too many. So I was just like, I need I need for the first time in my career. I needed a break from the novel writing.

• 45:02Jessie Ware?

  Do you ever have to have help with um? Do you have like a private investigator mate that you've got on the blower being like, listen? Now, I was gonna do this, like, or that. Or is it all from your imagination?

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Uh, well, I I can call anybody. I mean, like, if I have a question about being a singer songwriter, I'll just call you on the phone.

• 45:18Jessie Ware?

  Sure.

• 45:18Speaker 04

  And you'll tell me what it's like.

• 45:19Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  And that's where I'll get the good information. I don't do a lot of research reading. Because if I talk to you, I'll get that one little nugget that won't be in a book and I'll use that. It'll be interesting and different and it'll feel more authentic than if I read a book on being on doing your job. Do you know what I mean?

• 45:36Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, I do. I totally do.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  I would ask you, like, what's the weirdest thing that happened? Tell us right now. What's the weirdest thing that like? That happens to you when backstage? What are you thinking right before you come out? Let's start with that. Like, what is your last thought before you leave the dressing room?

• 45:47Jessie Ware?

  I really should have gone for a wee before I got the leotard on. That's my main thing. It's about about weeing. And also, it's my main thing. It's probably and also probably. Thinking if I, I mean, mine are very erotic Jewish things, like, did I digest early enough? Mine, mine is not the best thing for you.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  No, but that, no, that's perfect. You see, like, the digesting thing, I would use that.

• 46:09Jessie Ware?

  Okay.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  Right? The singer thinking that, and you would say, that's something he didn't read in a book. That sounds like something that's real and possible. So that you worry about, like, did I digest my food? Should I have eaten an hour earlier? Wait, I shouldn't have had that. I took meat tonight when I shouldn't have had chicken. Whatever that is, that's the one thing I'm always looking for.

• 46:26Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 46:27Speaker 04

  As a writer, so that's.

• 46:28Jessie Ware?

  So, so that people can relate to these people more?

• 46:30Speaker 04

  Both relate, and it just, doesn't that feel more real to you? I mean, if I tell you about that, rather than she was nervous and she was pacing and she tested her voice out. That, that, those are the cliche things you think of what's going on.

• 46:41Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 46:41Speaker 04

  But no, you're worried about your digestion. And that, that is the kind of thing that, when you, when you write, it makes the character more authentic and real and brings them to life, and more like you, as you just pointed out.

• 46:51Jessie Ware?

  Who do you read if you're not reading Harlan Coben?

• 46:54Speaker 04

  I really only read Harlan Coben. I'm trying to miss, you know, pro. Now, I read so many people, and I, I only read fiction.

• 47:00Jessie Ware?

  Who's one of your favorites?

• 47:02Speaker 04

  Oh, I can go on. My, my favorite author of all time is Philip Roth. Believe it or not.

• 47:06Jessie Ware?

  I have to say, my husband is upstairs, and my husband, who never really read when he was younger. And when we started going out, I would be reading so much because I hadn't done an English literature degree then, at that point. So I was still into reading. And, and I, we would just give him Harlan Coben, and he was like, it transformed him. Actually, he would, but he, he was so, he, he'll come and say hi in a bit, but like, you got him into reading and actually made him enjoy reading. And he was so excited that you were here.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  That's the sweetest thing I've ever heard. I mean, that's so, that's so sweet. When I hear that kind of comment, you know, that's, yes, it's really, it's very touching. Thank you.

• 47:45Jessie Ware?

  So, so we have the dessert. It's a, what do you call it? A pecan?

• 47:49Speaker 04

  Pecan.

• 47:50Jessie Ware?

  Pecan.

• 47:50Speaker 04

  Pecan.

• 47:51Jessie Ware?

  No, but, no, but what you, pecan.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Pecan.

• 47:53Jessie Ware?

  And what did our American friends say at the weekend?

• 47:56Speaker 04

  What do you say?

• 47:57Jessie Ware?

  I say pecan, but I'm.

• 47:58Speaker 04

  I just said pecan too. I said pecan also.

• 48:00Jessie Ware?

  Okay, but then our friends said pecan.

• 48:03Speaker 04

  He's wrong.

• 48:04Jessie Ware?

  Okay, he's wrong.

• 48:05Speaker 04

  He's just wrong.

• 48:05Jessie Ware?

  Okay, fine. Well, we've got a pecan pie.

• 48:07Speaker 04

  Beautiful.

• 48:08Jessie Ware?

  And I've tried to recreate the whipped cream that they made. They came with it because my husband ate all the bloody whipped cream. So I've done this with orange zest, a bit of vanilla extract, a little bit of icing sugar, and I think that's it. So, yeah, it's pecan pie with a bit of cream. There you go.

• 48:26Speaker 04

  This is like my mom would buy.

• 48:28Jessie Ware?

  Oh, yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  I said, my mom never baked, but, you know, my wife doesn't like to bake either. She's not a sweet eater.

• 48:33Jessie Ware?

  I'm not bothered.

• 48:34Speaker 04

  So, yeah, exactly. She would rather concentrate on the cooking, baking, she would rather farm out to somebody else.

• 48:41Jessie Ware?

  Before we let you go, Harman, what is a nostalgic taste that can transport you back somewhere?

• 48:46Speaker 04

  Oh, God. Hmm. A nostalgic taste that can transport me back? Well, to my parents is probably not a good taste.

• 48:55Jessie Ware?

  No, but like.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Um, the thing is, as much as my mother was a terrible cook, my grandfather was a true foodie. And so as a kid, I would be eating either something horrendous at home, or he would take me to La Bernadette in New York or something like that. There was like no in-between. But I would think, actually, the family dinners that you mentioned were at the Golden China Restaurant. They just weren't cooked. But we had every Saturday night, we went with my grandfather, my mother's, my one aunt and her family, and my uncle and his family, all of us would go to this place called the Golden China Restaurant. And I've never been able to duplicate the shrimp and lobster sauce we had there.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  Whenever I taste the shrimp and lobster sauce, I'm like, hmm, almost, but never Golden China in West Orange, New Jersey, in the early nineteen seventies, late nineteen sixties, that's what brings me mostly back, the Chinese food that I had. That was, that's, that's my family meal. That's my comfort food, if you will, is the Golden, which hasn't been open in about forty years. But that was what I think about when I, you know, he always took us out to eat.

• 50:04Jessie Ware?

  That's lovely.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:06Jessie Ware?

  The shrimp and lobster, I don't think they do it here.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  I don't think they do it. I'm not sure they do it anywhere, anymore than the way they did. We always ordered the same thing. He ordered a ton of spare ribs, my grandfather, a ton of dim sum, shrimp with lobster sauce, and then maybe like one surprise. And it was a table bigger than this, it was maybe ten or twelve us, and every Saturday, the entire family. I would say from about nineteen sixty-eight to nineteen seventy-four-ish, with a couple of exceptions, that was our, our thing. And it was, you know, we looked so forward to it because, again, it was edible, you know.

• 50:41Jessie Ware?

  So your mum never made chicken soup?

• 50:43Speaker 04

  No. My grandmother can make chopped chicken liver. That was her only thing that she could kind of make. And she but she only did it once a year, you know, on on Passover, something like that, once a year. In fact, when we used to have the turkey dinners for Thanksgiving, either my mother, because it was still sexism. My mother or my aunt would make them. And they were both horrendous cooks. And it would be literally like, I hated turkey my whole life because when they would cut it, it would be like shavings. Or it would be like shavings more than it was meat. It would it would almost be like sawdust kind of coming off. They had one of those electric.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  Oh, they had an electric knife.

• 51:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, so do one of those and it would come off like it would flake more than it would be. Oh, it's just terrible.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  It's probably.

• 51:25Speaker 04

  My uncle married a woman who could cook. We were all so happy for Thanksgiving, you know, so the family Thanksgiving. Oh, it was terrible. We'd just drown it in.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Did you celebrate Thanksgiving this year?

• 51:36Speaker 04

  Yes, I am fortunate enough to live on the parade route.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 51:41Speaker 04

  So we have people come over in the morning, very early, because the parade starts like at eight, eight thirty in the morning. And the balloons come right past our window. And I don't care how old you are, you're a kid when giant Snoopy goes by your window. It's still to this day, it I love watching people's reaction who have never seen it before. It's so cool. If you ever want to come over for Thanksgiving, it's worth it just to come see this parade. And we're nice and comfortable inside, so we don't have to worry about the weather. Comes right by, the balloons come right by. So we do that every Thanksgiving. We stuff as many people as we can to your apartment. And the problem is, there's no, you know, no one wants to not go. So it's just jammed now, but I'm hoping to figure a way of starting to cycle people in and out. Because it's getting.

• 52:26Speaker 03

  Sittings.

• 52:27Speaker 04

  It's it's it's really hard, you know, because it's just so much fun and the balloons are right there. And they're such a great spirit. So, yes, we always celebrate.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  What do you serve at your Thanksgiving kind of breakfast?

• 52:37Speaker 04

  The breakfast, bagels, schmierlachs.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Where are you getting them from?

• 52:40Speaker 04

  I'm getting them from Ridgewood Hot Bagels in New Jersey. He drives in from New York. New York bagels are not as good as New Jersey bagels. I'm sorry, they're not. They're just not. So I have this guy I've known from years. He will drive in. I have to go meet him because my the streets are closed off near my apartment. I gotta walk two blocks down. Six AM. He brings enough for over a hundred people that come. They have over a hundred people come. And that's and then we have so much leftover locks. I mean, I can't.

• 53:08Jessie Ware?

  Where do you get your locks from?

• 53:09Speaker 04

  Him too. He brings it all. White, white fish.

• 53:12Jessie Ware?

  White fish bread, yeah. Egg salad.

• 53:14Speaker 04

  Different egg salad.

• 53:15Jessie Ware?

  Yeah.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  Cream cheese, chive cheese, some kind of surprise cheese he always brings. I think this year was jalapeno cheese. All, you know, all kinds of bagels. Thank goodness he pre-slices them.

• 53:27Jessie Ware?

  Yeah, right.

• 53:28Speaker 04

  And then and and and I keep saying to him, maybe come in the night before. And he gets like mad at me. He goes, no. I gotta make those bagels in the morning. So they come to me, they're still hot. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. So I I said, maybe if we didn't serve as good a food, we'd have less people showing up. So I so by the time dinner comes around, frankly, I'm not much in the mood for turkey anyway, because I eat so much of that. It's no, that's so addictive tasting.

• 53:51Jessie Ware?

  That's so fun. I love that.

• 53:53Speaker 04

  Yes, that's.

• 53:53Jessie Ware?

  No, we will. I'll be there next Thanksgiving. There we go.

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Come, bring them to Thanksgiving.

• 53:57Jessie Ware?

  No, we've talked about Thanksgiving, but any Christmas traditions in your house?

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Um, well, we we have the tree and all that sort of thing. My wife and I, neither one of us are particularly religious, but we so we celebrate everything. And the kids are kind of like, if there's a present involved, I'm good. You know what I mean? But a lot of times we also, because one of the few times, my kids are grown now. My youngest is twenty four, my oldest is thirty one. But over Christmas is usually the time I can get them all away. And that's the most important thing, as you know, to have a chance to have all four of my kids.

• 54:30Jessie Ware?

  A full set, yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 04

  So we usually now on Christmas are in a Caribbean island. Or Costa Rica, or this year we're doing a boat in the in the British Virgin Islands.

• 54:41Jessie Ware?

  Oh, wow.

• 54:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's just as and it's just that you're you're you're together.

• 54:45Jessie Ware?

  I was going to ask you if you ever went on holiday.

• 54:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's that's but when I'm on holiday, right, actually, I like to.

• 54:52Jessie Ware?

  Of course you do.

• 54:52Speaker 04

  Well, you know what it is?

• 54:55Speaker 04

  Life is about balance. This is my own little personal quick philosophy. But like, you know, you're eating right, you're exercising, your relationship with your spouse, your kids, your friends, all that, all that for me can be in balance. But if I'm not writing well, it's going to go out of balance. So if I can do an hour in the morning, I wake up before the kids or whatever else, which isn't hard on vacation, and I just wait for an hour, it just keeps me in balance. Does that make sense?

• 55:22Jessie Ware?

  So it's like your workout?

• 55:24Speaker 04

  Exactly. Instead of people meditate or they have hobbies that are creative. My life is creative.

• 55:30Jessie Ware?

  You've got psychopaths and killers and kidnappers and yeah. Well, we can't wait. And because you're so prolific, we're sure there's another one coming out, probably the year after or even six months. So we can't wait to see more on Netflix and read more. Thank you for being here.

• 55:44Speaker 04

  Thank you, guys. Thank you so much for having me.

• 55:46Jessie Ware?

  Such a pleasure.

• 55:47Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 56:02Jessie Ware?

  Mum, tell everyone what you just did.

• 56:04Speaker 03

  As he was leaving, I gave him a big hug and said, goodbye, Myron. He said, that's all right. So I'm so sorry. He said, that's a mistake I don't mind you making.

• 56:15Jessie Ware?

  Harlan Coben was so lovely.

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Delight.

• 56:18Jessie Ware?

  So interesting. We need to get more writers on here.

• 56:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, it made me think maybe I could write.

• 56:24Jessie Ware?

  Oh, my God, Lenny.

• 56:25Speaker 03

  I'm going to watch the masterclass that he did.

• 56:28Jessie Ware?

  Social worker come podcast come thriller.

• 56:31Speaker 03

  Thriller, right.

• 56:33Jessie Ware?

  I'm excited.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, but he's such a sweet man. How does he vice such violent people? That's what I thought. Because a lot of his films are very, his series are.

• 56:44Jessie Ware?

  Why didn't we ask him that?

• 56:46Speaker 03

  I don't know, actually. Can you text him?

• 56:49Jessie Ware?

  Cocked up. We know he cocked up. We'll get him on again.

• 56:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:54Jessie Ware?

  Loved Harlan Coben. What a guy. Runaway is out on the first of January on Netflix. And if you like Fool Me Once and you like Safe and you like all those, those are all him. And you should go and watch Runaway on the first of January.

• 57:13Speaker 03

  Oh man.

• 57:14Jessie Ware?

  Oh. Right. You just love him.

• 57:17Speaker 03

  I love him.

• 57:19Jessie Ware?

  He was fab, yeah. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.

• 57:38Speaker 00

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• 57:51Speaker 01

  Everybody listen up.

• 57:53Speaker 00

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• 58:08Speaker 05

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