#2454 - Robert Malone, MD

Robert W. Malone, MD, MS, is a virologist and immunologist and an original inventor of mRNA delivery and vaccination as a technology, DNA vaccination, and multiple non-viral DNA and RNA/mRNA platform delivery technologies. He serves on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and is the author of multiple books, the most recent of which is “PsyWar: Enforcing the New World Order,” co-written with his wife, Dr. Jill Glasspool Malone. The Drs. Malone are the founders of the Malone Institute, which focuses on issues related to government, the biological sciences, and medicine.www.skyhorsepublishing.com/9781510782952/psywar/www.malone.newswww.malonebroadcasting.comwww.maloneinstitute.orgwww.rwmalonemd.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Yep, we're out. We were trying to figure out how long it's been since you came in. It's been somewhere in the neighborhood, close to five years.

• 0:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Lot of water into the bridge.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  Your appearance on this show, boy, did that create a lot of problems.

• 0:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I didn't expect you ever having me on again. I thought maybe Spotify was just gonna say, hell, no.

• 0:35Joe Rogan?

  No, you were right. Like, this is a victory dance. Like, it turned out that all your warnings and all the things that you were saying about the problems turned out to be true.

• 0:45Speaker 03

  Well, thanks. And I know you've said that on a few shows. Every time you do, somebody sends me a clip and sees, hey, Rogan said you did the right thing.

• 0:55Joe Rogan?

  What was it like for you? First of all, you know, they were trying to label you a quack and a kook and somebody didn't know what they're talking about. I don't think it worked with everybody. I mean, it worked with people that weren't paying attention. But anybody that really paid attention to your background said, no, this guy's very credible. I mean, don't you have, like, nine patents on mRNA vaccine technology?

• 1:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, on the mRNA, yeah, and a total of about 15, I think.

• 1:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And you also took the vaccine and had a horrible adverse event.

• 1:28Speaker 03

  A series of them, yeah. But at the time, it was so early. That was when the National Guard was still doing it, and that was Moderna. And I was embarrassed to have these experiences. And I was embarrassed when I got COVID in early 2020. You know, looking back, there was so much, so much fear, so much...

• 2:00Speaker 03

  Oh, anger and anxiety and everything wrapped around all of this. Mm hmm. And in retrospect, it was, you know, it was promoted, but it was also very organic. You know, it was, it was, you know, looking back, being honest about it, it was a frightening time, what was happening. And, um, and yeah, I, you know, I had those experiences. My doc, who was a cardiologist, was like, why were you so stupid to take this? Your doctor said that too, in 2021? Yeah. Or 2020 or 20? Twenty, it was 2021, 2021. Yeah.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  I was going to a kind of a cardiologist that had left traditional medical practice at UVA and the associated hospitals. And I was going to her for hormone replacement therapy and bio-identical hormone replacement therapy. And she was monitoring a lot of things. And, and yeah, that was her response. Why did you do this? Of course, I've had that question a thousand times since. You know, why were you so stupid? You were the one that should have known. And so I have to answer that still. It just kind of gets a little tiresome. What was your perspective on the vaccine before you took it?

• 3:27Speaker 03

  Um, to be honest, I was a little, I was amazed. I was amazed that the, that the claims, that the problems that I encountered when I had been working on it had been solved. I didn't see how that could be the case, but I knew that a huge amount of money had been thrown at it, so it was possible. What were the problems? In my hands, it was inflammation primarily. It was also, you know, the, it was absolutely not localizable. It was, in, in the monkey models that we tested, it was incredibly inflammatory. It didn't give long levels, long prolonged levels of expression.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  It was hard to make. It was kind of, back then, it was almost a little bit of witchcraft. You'd drop, I mean, for me as a graduate student when I was doing that, it was incredibly scary because it was a couple thousand dollars worth of reagents in a little tiny tube. And, you know, back in the late eighties, that was real money. And, uh, and it didn't always work, the reaction. So, you know, it was, it was a little bit of a wing and a prayer. But then, um, as I started working with animal models and with the different formulations, I could come up with a variety of different compounds and formulations that worked pretty well in cell culture, but not so well in animals.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  And, uh, I spent a lot of time trying to do that, optimize that. And what I ended up with is just seeing that it really caused, you know, I'm sorry to use medical jargon, that's kind of where I'm from. So that's the language. No, it's probably better if you do. It, it caused a lot of inflammation. You know, white cell infiltrates, really aggressive white cell infiltrates in my hands in both mice and monkeys. And I'd abandoned it as, as something that just, uh, you know, was, was useful in, in research, in particularly in cell culture. But I just didn't see it maturing as a, as an efficient delivery strategy with low risk,

• 5:41Speaker 03

  you know, acceptable risk in animals. And that also became the experience in, uh, at this company that I had first joined, where a lot of the original patents were filed, Vical. Uh, they, they abandoned the RNA because they couldn't make it. And, uh, they turned largely to this strange discovery that we had that was in negative control, that the RNA alone or DNA alone was actually more effective in animal models, mice, for instance, than it was to use the positively charged fats.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  This, now people call them lipid nanoplexes, lots of fancy words around it. It was just positively charged fats of various types that were mixed that bind the DNA or the RNA and, and kind of spontaneously assemble.

• 6:41Speaker 03

  And a lot of work went into trying to improve that. We did what we could in the 90s, when I was at Davis, to try to advance that technology and develop new lipids. And we had a number of them get patented and they were marketed by Promega and others, but could never solve the delivery in vivo. But this group up in University of British Columbia that had been banging away at this kind of related liposome tech for years and years, even before, you know, I had known anything about it, were the ones that kind of came up with the magic sauce that is used essentially by both the Moderna and Pfizer products. And

• 7:25Speaker 03

  that's the stuff that we've all been exposed to, those that have taken it.

• 7:30Joe Rogan?

  So, when you were first experimenting, you said that it couldn't be localized. So, meaning that in the injection site, it was supposed to be there and then your body was supposed to produce antibodies because of the injection?

• 7:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it goes all over.

• 7:44Joe Rogan?

  But it went all over the body?

• 7:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does.

• 7:46Joe Rogan?

  But the assertion, what they were telling you when you got the shot initially, was that it was not going to leave the injection site?

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I called my colleagues at University of British Columbia that I had known back in the day, as I was grappling with whether or not to take the product because I had to travel. And as you recall, back then, forget international travel if you weren't jabbed.

• 8:12Joe Rogan?

  Even national travel?

• 8:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:14Joe Rogan?

  You couldn't get on an airplane?

• 8:15Speaker 03

  But in Canada, it was even worse. You couldn't get on a train. Yeah, so I called Peter and had a chat with him. And he said that they had solved the problems of the distribution, that now when you injected it, it would stay local, it would go to the draining lymph nodes. It was much more effective and that they didn't have those safety issues anymore. So that was one of the reasons why I decided to go ahead.

• 8:42Joe Rogan?

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• 9:24Joe Rogan?

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• 10:06Joe Rogan?

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• 10:52Joe Rogan?

  So you're not getting some cheap version cut with fillers. If you want a high-quality supplement made with the right stuff, AG1 Pro is a no-brainer. Go to drinkag1.com/joe for a limited time. Get a free immune support bundle, including a bottle of Omega 3 Fish Oil and Vitamin D tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe. Did you ask how they solved that problem?

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I asked in detail because I knew some of the nature of the formulations. Again, I don't want to get too technical. But what was claimed was that the incorporation of polyethylene glycol, so this is, you know, you would know that as antifreeze. But it's in the liposome world, it's long been known as a way to create what are known as stealth liposomes that circulate in your body for a long period of time and make it so that these particles don't get inactivated by extracellular proteins and the liver and stuff like that.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  And so he was using, the gentleman in particular is named Peter Cullis. By the way, he's the one that should have got the Nobel Prize for these products as far as I'm concerned and got slighted in the pick. But Peter Cullis said that he had, they had experimented with a lot of different structures of the fat particles, chemical structures. So they came up with some that had these properties of staying localized and then built the formulations in ways that were similar to what I'd done with cholesterol and other things. But then also added these shorter polyethylene glycol molecules attached with a really short

• 12:51Speaker 03

  organic, you could call it fat or gasoline-like molecule that put the peg into the liposome particle. And, but it, in a way that, once it got into the body, it would fall off. And so this is, you know, some people have the sensation, as I did with my second jab of, you know, you get it and then suddenly you feel tingling in the end of your fingers or things like that. That may be the peg. But it was those advances in...

• 13:22Speaker 03

  The components, because these are self-assembling particles that were used that Peter and his group.

• 13:33Joe Rogan?

  Peter Colas?

• 13:33Speaker 03

  No, Peter Colas, P I E T E R, from U B C and his group, built these products with, and this technology. And that was, they, they had it available, their choice, because they created companies for this. I mean, a ton of money must have been made, because they licensed it, not exclusively, to BioNTech and Moderna. And that, that's still kind of the core tech that makes this particular category of products work.

• 14:11Joe Rogan?

  And so this was enough to convince you that they had solved that problem?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I took his word at it. I mean, he's, he's an extremely experienced, knowledgeable liposome formulation expert, quite senior. He's older than me by another decade at least, and been doing this forever. And he asserted that he had, he had solved the problems. And I believed him. I needed to travel internationally. And also, there was this buzz going around at the time, that if you had long COVID, which at, you know, at the time, if you think back to then, there was a whole cloud over even using the words long COVID, that the

• 14:57Speaker 03

  idea that you would have these long-lasting effects from getting the infection was controversial, and not really accepted, but partially promoted. And there was a narrative that was, you know, in retrospect actively promoted, that if you took the vaccines and you, and if you had this symptom. Of this chronic malaise and loss of stamina. I mean, you're a guy that's, it's important to you to be physically fit. For me, it's been important to be physically fit all my life because I've always been a farmer and a carpenter and, and worked with my hands and my body. And I have farm chores. I still have farm chores every day.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  And I couldn't do them. I couldn't walk up hills. I just had lost my stamina. I'd lost my pulmonary function and it wasn't getting better. And nobody, you know, nobody knew anything about this, what was causing it, whether it was even real, but I was experiencing it. You know, there's, there's a whole cluster of people who say there's no virus and there's certainly not any long COVID, but I, I experienced it.

• 16:07Joe Rogan?

  So did you experience?

• 16:09Speaker 03

  And so it was, it was promoted that if you took the jab and you had this symptom.

• 16:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  Then it would kick your immune system up. You'd get more of a response to the spike antigen and that would allow you to clear the symptoms of long COVID. That turns out now we have data in just fairly recently that in fact, the opposite is true.

• 16:32Joe Rogan?

  So this, this idea of long COVID, so you got long COVID from the actual infection of COVID-19 before the jab?

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got infected in late, very end of February 2020. I was in Boston at a conference on drug discovery, computational drug discovery, high throughput stuff, very high tech MIT. And staying in a little firehouse that had been converted to a hotel right across the street from the biotech company where, that, that the initial Boston outbreak was associated with. And I came home sick as a dog. I thought that I had influenza B because that was, the, what the narrative was that was circulating at the time.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  And I was just, I remember laying in bed, just feeling sick as hell, hard to breathe. And my wife came in, it's just been on the TV.

• 17:31Speaker 03

  Covid is circulating right there in Boston where you were. So, so that was, that was pretty early on and it hit me pretty hard. So that would have been the Wuhan one variant. And then there was a couple of, of genetic changes that occurred apparently in Boston around that time.

• 17:52Joe Rogan?

  So how long did this affect you, this, this long Covid?

• 17:56Speaker 03

  No, I was, I was sick until I took the jab. You know, just not, not having stamina, just feeling.

• 18:06Joe Rogan?

  How many months was that?

• 18:08Speaker 03

  I, I had never even thought about it, many months.

• 18:12Joe Rogan?

  And did you try anything else to mitigate those symptoms?

• 18:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did. So, uh, um, what, my whole story, you know, there's a whole bunch of what I did back then that never gets discussed and that's okay. But, uh, I, you know, the kickoff was that I got this call from Wuhan. I think it was from Wuhan, from this guy that, uh, used to be CIA named Michael Callahan, who I'd worked with in the past and had told me, he told me with the call that there was this virus in Wuhan, this coronavirus that looked like it was going to be serious. And I ought to pay attention to it and I ought to get a team wound up to try to address this. So what I'd done, because this is coming off of what I did in Zika.

• 19:00Speaker 03

  You know, I'm a vaccinologist at Core, uh, but, um, developing a vaccine in the face of an outbreak historically has taken a decade. And, uh, it just isn't a practical way to address an emergent infectious disease crisis. And I had become convinced that the best way to do that was through repurposed drugs. So after I get this call, I put the team together, um, building on the technology that I'd been working with at USAMRID during Zika for a rapid identification of, uh,

• 19:40Speaker 03

  Of repurposed drugs to address a, you know, new crisis. And this time, we'd really taken a computational approach. So I used some tech out of UC San Francisco to recreate one of the key proteins in SARS-CoV-2, based on the sequence that got published from Wuhan in January 11th, I think, of 2020. And we started doing what's called computational docking of very, very large virtual libraries using Amazon AWS and high-throughput parallel processing.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  And came up with a list of compounds and then kind of screened those against problems, adverse events, that kind of stuff. More coffee, good.

• 20:32Joe Rogan?

  Want some?

• 20:33Speaker 03

  I would, thank you. And so I had this list. I had this list of compounds and then I was sick as a dog. And, you know, what you get trained in if you do clinical research is docs don't experiment on themselves. That's like breaking the rules. But I'm lying there so sick that I'm just like, what the hell? What do I got to lose? I'm probably going to die. You know, at that point, I'd spent a lot of time already looking into the virus and what it was causing and what people were saying it was causing.

• 21:08Joe Rogan?

  And how old were you at the time?

• 21:09Speaker 03

  Um, let's see, I'm 66 now, so that puts us 61.

• 21:14Joe Rogan?

  So you were in a high-risk group?

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, for sure. And I was obese. I don't know if you noticed, but I've dropped about 40 to 50 pounds since we last met. So I started taking some of those compounds and one of them was this drug that is normally taken for stomach acid called famotidine. And I got an immediate response with that. And so I also tried isocorsetin. That didn't seem to make so much of an impact on me. But I experimented on myself. And famotidine at higher doses now has been verified to be helpful. And it was one of the first things out of the box that people started taking,

• 22:01Speaker 03

  even prophylactically, before we knew about ivermectin and other things. And then that went on. I mean, there's a whole thread here. We could go on for an hour about about what was done with the repurposed drugs. I was working closely with Defense Reduction Agency. And I managed to capture a few hundred million dollars and direct that towards drug repurposing, adaptive clinical trials, et cetera. And the thing that I zoomed in on through a collaboration with a doc up in Minnesota

• 22:44Speaker 03

  was the combination of famotidine, another anti-inflammatory called selicoxib. And then the thing that really kicked it in high gear was the forbidden horse medicine, ivermectin. And we got, I managed to, working with DOD, got over a hundred million dollars, set up a contract. It got managed by SAIC. And we were going to go after that using a very cutting edge clinical trial design. And remember, this is the DOD.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  We submitted initial drug applications for using this combination of licensed drugs, well-known licensed drugs. And the FDA just dug in again and again, rejected the application. So long, what they said was, we were going to have to do cell culture tests to demonstrate the antiviral activity of ivermectin before they would allow us to proceed. And so in the end, the DOD caved and they dropped the ivermectin component and proceeded with the famotidine and cilcoxib, which showed some effect.

• 24:03Joe Rogan?

  Why were they so hesitant? Or what was the resistance?

• 24:07Speaker 03

  Your guess is as good as mine. I really, people think that I have visibility into the FDA. And yeah, I've met with them and I have a background in regulatory affairs. But the policy decisions that were made during COVID and still to this day are perplexing.

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  But particularly ivermectin?

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Oh, it was, it was like a high sin.

• 24:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:30Speaker 03

  They, they, they deployed, what do we want to call it? Propaganda, psychological warfare, nudge, everything, just like they did after you and I had our little discussion. It was, it was stunning. I mean, like after we had our chat, I don't know if you remember, you asked me about what is this about mass formation psychosis?

• 24:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  And it, I mean, the use, the term broke the internet is overused. It broke the internet.

• 25:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  The search results on Google went nuts and-

• 25:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, because it perfectly described what was happening.

• 25:10Speaker 03

  Oh, and couldn't be, it couldn't possibly describe what was happening, even though every single person that heard it knew damn well it did. But it was forbidden. I mean, this was forbidden because-

• 25:23Joe Rogan?

  For people who didn't hear our first discussion, please explain mass formation psychosis.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  So since then, I've had a shitstorm come at me for using the term psychosis coupled with mass formation. You can't, you know, the grief, you think you got a lot of grief from Spotify and from-

• 25:41Joe Rogan?

  Spotify was actually great. I had no grief from them. It was from like Neil Young and Joni Mitchell and other artists.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  So you prob, then you probably don't know the whole backstory.

• 25:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  That's, we should, that's fun to dive into because it relates to the psychological warfare domain that now I've become a pseudo expert on.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  Just in trying to understand what the hell I experienced and what's going on. So Matthias Desmet, who's a friend at University of Ghent in Belgium, who, by the way, has been pretty well railroaded in his university now, not allowed to teach his own book on the psychological basis of totalitarianism, which is where that book had not come out yet, but it was the mass formation hypothesis is what was the kind of core of that book that's now published and widely regarded.

• 26:37Speaker 03

  So Matthias is somebody who, as a PhD, a full professor, had long taught 20th century psychology work relating to totalitarianism and thought that goes back to Freud and beyond, really, all the way back to Plato and the allegory of the cave. And in particular, there was a number of philosophers in the 20th century associated with trying to make sense of Nazi Germany and what had happened to the German people and really all over the world, but particularly relating to the Germans.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  And Matthias had been teaching this on a regular basis. And the way he tells the story, he had an epiphany one day that, oh, my God, the thing that I've been teaching, I'm living. We're experiencing it. We're experiencing this process of the formation of masses. And you could call it crowd psychology. So mass formation, it's kind of awkward, or mass formation psychosis, which is what the term was that was used in the initial podcast that he gave out, so that's why I use that term. But, you know, the attack was that it's not in the diagnostics and statistical manual

• 28:02Speaker 03

  for the American Psychiatric Association, so therefore it doesn't exist. But, you know, all the attacks. But the core of it is that when people, to make it simple, become disassociated from society and from each other, they become extremely vulnerable to manipulation of a variety of different types. And a leader can come into that environment and offer, let's to simplify it, offer a solution to their pain. Because being isolated, socially isolated, is associated with pain. We as human beings have a need to connect with others.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  It's a fundamental aspect of being human. It's what you do. I mean, you connect. That's, that's the essence of the Joe Rogan experience, I think. So, we need to connect with others. And in, in certain situations where people are threatened, and in particular, in the modern era, where we have all of these things that drive us into isolation, most notably our electronic tools. We become disassociated from our community. And when that happens, we have a strong need to become associated with community. And, and a leader can come into that environment and basically say, "I have the solution to

• 29:28Speaker 03

  your pain, your psychological pain." And what will happen is a strange phenomenon where people will, rather than building social networks, let's say horizontally to those around them, they'll attach to this strong leader. And they'll get that, they'll get fulfillment for that need to belong by this attach, attachment to that leader and following the edicts of that leader. And this leads to this phenomena that gives rise, you know, enables to teleitarianism, but gives rise to this whole cluster of things that Mr. Theist described, that, you know,

• 30:13Speaker 03

  he, he uses the term mass formation. In a way, that's kind of an odd artifact of translation, I guess, from the Dutch. It's, an easier way to think of it is a crowd formation. And

• 30:30Speaker 03

  And in his examination of the history of what happened in Nazi Germany, where things, people really went crazy. I mean, mothers were turning their children in, you know, children are being executed on, you know, consequent to mothers' testimony, which is really strange when you think about it, just, you know, in a fundamental way. You know, we had all of this dear leader kind of stuff, the linkage of the self and

• 31:09Speaker 03

  the soul to this central figure and deriving a sense of identity and belonging from that that went on. And, you know, there's still people from that generation in Germany that are still caught up in, in a lot of that. That's why the German laws. And so that's, that's, that's the short version. When we spoke before, I gave a much more technical, precise definition of Mathias's core thesis. But this, once this happens, then people

• 31:52Speaker 03

  become very, very easily manipulated through propaganda and a variety of techniques that now I have a better comprehension of. I mean, then I was still just trying to make sense, just like all of us, of what the heck was going on? What's with this crazy? But now it's kind of coalesced into an understanding of, of the fact that modern psychology has been weaponized. It's been intentionally weaponized in the context of military activities in the domain that, you know, one way to express it, the term is used, kind of term

• 32:34Speaker 03

  of art in military jargon is fifth generation warfare, or you could call it psychological warfare. And what distinguishes the present from, say, Sun Tzu and, you know, ancient propaganda has always been part of warfare in humans. But we haven't had the digital world. We haven't had modern psychology. We haven't had nudge technology. We haven't had all these tools that allow the control of information, thought, perception, feelings, emotions, that have become commonplace.

• 33:16Speaker 03

  And that, you know, is, is, and has, has, you know, this, this suite of technology and capabilities that we saw deployed in all of us were built in a kind of a structured way largely by UK and US leadership in the intelligence community as a weapon of war to counter these successful insurgencies that we keep losing wars over. You know, Vietnam being a notable example, all the way through Afghanistan. And so that, that's why it was built, but then that tech got deployed by governments

• 34:01Speaker 03

  against their own citizens. And this was really launched in large part in the United States by a presidential directive from Barack Obama. I'm not making this up. You can look it up. And by the way, the presidential directive is still in place that established the nudge technology units of the United States. They were already operating in the UK. And in the UK, it's quite advanced. When you look at the UK politics right now and what's going on there with all the censorship and everything, you know, this is no joke. We're, we're barreling right to that endpoint, same as Canada has. You know, we're just a little bit behind.

• 34:42Speaker 03

  And there they, you know, we have the benefit of the First Amendment and a constitution. And, you know, often on courts, but there they, they don't have those obstacles. And the government believes in the UK that it, once they have won an election, it's perfectly acceptable to deploy this modern psychology and information control technology on their own population. And I argue that once that Rubicon is crossed, the idea of democracy, because the tech is so powerful, becomes completely perverted.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  And we got a good, hard taste of that during COVID. What you and I experienced, what you experienced with ivermectin, what you experienced with, you know, just talking about your own experiences. And the blowback that happened after we did that little hit is a super powerful, clear case study in understanding this intersection of modern psychology, warfare technology, and the digital world, and algorithmic control of information,

• 36:07Speaker 03

  the creation of digital avatars for all of us, the application now in present of artificial intelligence to custom craft messaging that gets fed into our digital domains on a regular basis in order to, you know, sell us whatever, but also to shape how we think and to control what information we get access to all the time. Just to give an example, my wife, who does a lot of our research for Substack, was talking to me the other day.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  She just gave me a couple of examples where stories that were in corporate media in the United States that weren't listing certain key names or whatever. She said, I just go to the Hindustu Times. Hindustu Times is a great source for all the stuff that we're not allowed to see here in the United States. You're now in an environment, in an information environment where you cannot

• 37:16Speaker 03

  Rely on, but we all know that. You can't rely on corporate media, but the, but the, the rules, the boundaries that are being set up about information are profound and they're completely distorting our ability to process what's happening around us. Can I give you the example of what actually happened? You, you said in, in our example with the blowback in Spotify. This is documented by a, a report out from the House about COVID and what happened. And that report only carries just through to the early part of the vaccines and then it stops.

• 37:57Speaker 03

  They, for some reason, they didn't really want to go down the road to the vaccines. They did talk a lot about the events around the, let's say, lab leak hypothesis, which is allowed. You're allowed in DC now to talk about that.

• 38:14Joe Rogan?

  Finally.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. You're still, you're, well, and.

• 38:17Joe Rogan?

  It was about four years later you were allowed.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was documented was that, that the trail of events was that we had our discussion. That triggered, and this is going to sound bizarre, but this is what's documented. That triggered Coca-Cola Corporation to complain to the Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which is created by the World Economic Forum. It's one of these global aggregators that controls advertising. The Global Alliance for Responsible Media, which by the way, had a dust-up with Elon Musk and lost, and they closed it down as a nonprofit.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  It still exists in other ways, but as a structure that could be sued by X, it disappeared when he stood up against it. But Global Alliance for Responsible Media had a socket with Google AdSense, by the way. So they control the advertising ecosystem, which kind of matters to Spotify.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  So Coca-Cola complains to Garm saying, "This guy Rogan, you gotta shut him down. Okay, you gotta put pressure on Spotify." So Spotify gets the message from Garm that we're gonna, we're threatening to pull your advertising. Okay, now, what happens between that and your experience, I don't know. You know, it's not transparent to me what you experienced. Yeah, we all remember the Laurel Canyon crowd saying they were gonna pull their catalogs, which they didn't actually own, right? That was, that was another thing. And then they, they went after you with this mashup of N-word historic events.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  You know, there was clearly a concerted effort to take out Joe Rogan, much more than to take out Robert Malone. And so then the question comes, why the heck would Coca-Cola be the socket with the Global Alliance for Responsibility? One of the biggest advertisers in the world, right? Why would Coca-Cola give a hooey about what Joe Rogan said to Robert Malone on, you know, New Year's Eve? Coca-Cola is really tight with the CDC. Coca-Cola has funded buildings at the CDC. Coca-Cola funds the CDC Foundation, Foundation for the CDC, as does Bill and Melinda Gates,

• 40:56Speaker 03

  has done all the major vaccine manufacturers, et cetera, et cetera. The appearance is, I can't verify this, that CDC acted through its ally Coca-Cola. Why are they allies? What's Coca-Cola got to do with CDC? The angle there is that Coca-Cola wanted the CDC to get WHO to not implement restrictions in messaging about sugar use. Okay, they didn't want those messages. Remember, this is at the heart of the inverted food triangle now. The old food triangle was the product of sugar lobby. I mean, the sugar lobby is incredibly powerful because this stuff is addictive.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  I mean, it's like having the cocaine lobby, right? Well, and you know, that's an interesting analogy because, of course, the history of Coca-Cola. But, um, so sugar's addictive. The CDC, Coca-Cola didn't want the CDC, wanted the CDC to influence public health policy to avoid global positions on the risks associated with sugar intake because it would potentially hurt their market share, wouldn't it? You know, they're a major globalized company. So that's, that little ecosystem that I just described illustrates what we're dealing with here.

• 42:22Speaker 03

  And the many ways that all of this kind of influence and messaging and signaling happens in this kind of integrated horizontally and vertically ecosystem that we live in right now. And one of the things that came out of that, you'll recall, was that you were asked, as I recall, you, you gave this, you know, I've, I've had a hostage video, I think that was a close to a hostage video from you, back in the day when you were saying, this is what I'm going to do. It was like out on your porch or something. I remember, I was sitting around a campfire in Maui, quite literally, when somebody said, oh, did you just see this from Rogan?

• 43:03Speaker 03

  And a matter of fact, I was sitting around Gavin DeBecker's campfire at that time, somebody that you know. And so the compromise was that there would be a little trailer put at the bottom of that episode. And by the way, you probably know, that episode for a long time became very hard to find. It was, it was basically blacklisted from the search engines, et cetera, et cetera. But you, it carries on, I think it still does, that little banner that says, you know, you should go to the CDC if you want the true true about COVID. And you can still find that, those kinds of banners popping up all the time on YouTube. If you, if you talk about vaccines or COVID vaccines, that will get, if, if you pass

• 43:47Speaker 03

  the filters, if, if YouTube will allow that to still be up, um, cause you didn't say something, whatever it is, uh, then you'll get the little banner. Okay. That banner is pushed out by the nudge units at the CDC. Okay. That is nudge technology. It is all around us, all the time, and it's, it's basically still a public policy consequent to the old Obama presidential directive that still hasn't been rescinded. Uh, you know, I love President Trump. I think he's doing amazing things. I think he's amazingly brave. Uh, I just mentioned our friend Gavin DeBecker referred to Trump the other day when I saw

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Gavin in, in Maui as a once in 500 year leader. And that's, that's not, that's not nothing coming from Gavin. And, uh, so I'm, I'm a big supporter, but the president has still left in place this mechanism that exists, uh, that directs the federal government to use nudge technology and related, uh, what I assert is psychological warfare technology on the American populace.

• 44:58Joe Rogan?

  Right. This is from back in, what was it? 2015 or something like that?

• 45:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's, it's quite early. Um, and then you had his, you had Obama's subsequent, like the notorious speech at Hoover, at Stanford. Where he talks about in order to preserve democracy, we're going to have, basically, he says, we're going to have to have censorship.

• 45:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  In order to preserve democracy, or whatever democracy is.

• 45:24Joe Rogan?

  This is for people that don't know what we're talking about, we're relating to the Smith-Mundt Act?

• 45:28Speaker 03

  The Smith-Mundt, everybody focuses on Smith-Mundt. But as I examine Smith-Mundt, and we did an essay on this in the Substack, you know, like, three years ago, because that was the kind of the narrative that was coming out in, let's say, our side of alternative media.

• 45:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:47Speaker 03

  And in my examination, Smith-Mundt's impact is a lot more limited. It has to do with Voice of America and some other things. The broad impact wasn't quite, in my opinion, what was believed to be of enabling propaganda domestically. More specifically, there is a presidential directive that nudge technology, that established a nudge office, that nudge technology shall be used.

• 46:15Joe Rogan?

  What do they call it? They don't call it a nudge office, right?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  They, I don't know, it's, it's got, they've, they've gone through various iterations, and I'm sorry, I don't have the latest version. And it's kind of become decentralized.

• 46:25Speaker 04

  It was called the Social and Behavioral Science Team. Wikipedia says that that was stopped in 2017, but continued under the Trump administration under, sorry, the General Services Administration's Office of Evaluation Science.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  There we go. Yeah.

• 46:42Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 46:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, and it's kind of become, it's been, like I said, it's been pushed out into a lot of the agencies. They don't use that, that lexicon, because then it's easy to find them.

• 46:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  They use, there's other euphemisms they use to describe those kinds of activities, but it's become normalized. The weaponization of propaganda has become normalized.

• 47:04Speaker 04

  There's the wording from...

• 47:06Joe Rogan?

  Overall, behavioral interventions or nudges like the ones implemented by OES have been found to be effective in recent Psychological Science article. Researchers identified several policy areas of interest, example, healthcare.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  There you go, 2015, is when it was implemented.

• 47:21Joe Rogan?

  So, 2015.

• 47:22Speaker 03

  Executive order.

• 47:23Joe Rogan?

  President Obama signs an executive order requiring federal agencies to incorporate behavioral insights into their evaluation efforts.

• 47:31Joe Rogan?

  That's a nice way of saying use of propaganda on the American people.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, okay, and so this this has kind of become, thank you so much for for pulling that up, that's super helpful. So this this is, like I said, if I can illustrate, I was on a Great Britain News broadcast about four years ago. At the time when they would, you know, I was, there was a window time where they would have me on, but it was sketchy, and GB News was the only one that would do it. But the rules were then that if you were going to have somebody that was speaking against the government narrative, then you had to have somebody representing the government's interests in the same broadcast.

• 48:14Speaker 03

  So that's implemented by, basically, the UK has an active censorship organization that controls news media. And so I'm on with this guy, Great Britain News, pinstripe, bow tie, you know, it just reeks. And I'm talking about psychological warfare and the 77th Brigade, which is part of the British Army, which is their psychological warfare unit, it's very open, that that's the case, as is the existence of a civilian branch that they set up and paid people to

• 48:55Speaker 03

  do social media in opposition of counter narratives that the government didn't approve of. I mean, now they just, under Starmer, they just censor you and send you to jail.

• 49:06Joe Rogan?

  No jury drives.

• 49:07Speaker 03

  They just cut out the middleman.

• 49:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  But back then, they were still kind of buying civilians. And so I'm talking about this. And that's, that, the guy says, yeah, but here in the UK, our belief is that if the government wins the election, they have the right to govern. And that right to govern includes our ability to use this type of technology, and we believe that it's justified to do so. And that, when that conversation happened, frankly, I hadn't, we hadn't launched the book yet, Cywar, which is our most recent publication. And, and it just kind of all coalesced in my mind that, oh, my God, what, all these

• 49:50Speaker 03

  things, Matthias's teaching about mass formation, what I saw, what I experienced with you, what I experienced with the concerted attacks of the media. And then subsequently, it's been validated by this congressional report that talks about, for instance, the juror ticket system. Juror tickets are what, it's a system that all the software companies use to track glitches and complaints and stuff like that. Well, the government had their own juror ticket system set up to log information about activities of persons that they wanted to have censored and suppressed. And they would build these juror tickets with information.

• 50:34Speaker 03

  And so one of the things that's out in the congressional report was that I actually had a juror ticket. I was surprised that this is the case, or not surprised, in retrospect. And, and my personal sins were that I was listed as an anti-vaxxer and a conservative. Even though you're a vaccenologist and a conservative, that's interesting. And a conservative. Yeah, exactly right. I mean, the stuff that's coming out. That's wild. It's fascinating to query things like Grok, even Grok, about certain subjects. And, and you will find where they have algorithmically built firewalls. And, and you can, you can.

• 51:19Speaker 03

  Approach them and detect them because it will it will act dumb. You know, it'll lock up seemingly, it won't give you that answer. Or it'll talk around the issue, et cetera, et cetera. You can identify these things that have been built in algorithmically. And of course, then we we had all of the disclosures, the Zuckerberg, oh, I'm so sorry. Apology tour that happened, remember, when basically you got outed by Congress? And and the rest of the tech bros. And of course, the thing that catalyzed all of that was that Elon decided to pony up a good chunk of change and buy by Twitter.

• 52:02Joe Rogan?

  Which I think is one of the most impactful decisions that any American citizen has ever made.

• 52:08Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 52:09Joe Rogan?

  If he didn't do that, I think we would be really screwed.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  There's how can you debate that?

• 52:14Joe Rogan?

  How can you debate it when you look at the Twitter files and you find out how much the government was involved in censoring accurate information from legitimate professors, esteemed researchers, anybody who didn't go along with the official narrative?

• 52:27Speaker 03

  It's it's all coming out now in spades. And and we're dealing now. The lovely thing about all of this, I mean, let's let's try to. It is morning in America, in my opinion. I mean, a lot of people get very dark and and there's a darkness to the times. But there's, you know, not to push the metaphor too far, but there there is new light coming in. And the fact that we can now see this and we recognize that you and I are of a similar generation. I mean, one of my earliest memories was the assassination of the president.

• 53:07Speaker 03

  And all of the propaganda around that, the propaganda around Vietnam War, ever since, we've just been swimming in information control that's gotten increasingly sophisticated. And fortunately, as Americans, we also kind of have become more and more immune to marketing and propaganda over time because we've been living with it, trying to discern what is real and what is, you know, false. Again, this is if it's a core part of what you do for a living, I think, is is just try to, you know, have conversations to be able to get to the bottom of the bullshit. But that we've, we've been swimming in it and now we can see it.

• 53:52Speaker 03

  We can see the, the structures, the, you know, the, the power of artificial intelligence and influence mapping and all the things that are going on in the internet right now that are the cutting, cutting edge technology. They're scary because they can be weaponized against us, but they're also super cool because we can now see those relationships. If you want an example of that, look at the, the threads that are coming out on X illuminating the networks of affiliation associated with this latest Epstein file release. Just mind blowing.

• 54:31Joe Rogan?

  Mind blowing.

• 54:32Speaker 03

  And, and it is just, just like, you know, we can, we can sit here and bitch and whine saying, oh, they didn't release that, blah, blah, blah. This is, this is redacted. All that's true, but still the, the impact of, of that information, we're still getting to the bottom of it.

• 54:52Joe Rogan?

  It's completely changed most people's narrative of what happened. Like, we had this sort of vague understanding, you know, but when you see in the email, like, clear evidence that they're talking about children.

• 55:05Speaker 03

  In, in pretty obscene ways.

• 55:08Joe Rogan?

  Horrifying ways. So that was the thing that like, even I, when I talked to Mike Benz about that, he was sort of incredulous about that. It's like, I don't think they would use children. It just doesn't make any sense if they get caught, but it just seems like.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. If, if Mike Benz was incredulous, that's pretty big.

• 55:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, I just don't think we really knew until we saw those files come out.

• 55:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:32Joe Rogan?

  And then you go, oh, well, you, there's no denying it now. My, my position on it has completely shifted. I thought there's probably some really sick people that have an appetite for that, but I hadn't seen any real evidence for it until these files. And now I'm like, oh, this is demonic. It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long, because it's not football without food.

• 56:17Joe Rogan?

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• 56:57Joe Rogan?

  With scores and play-by-play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing, that means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat. The Apple Sports app gives you all the important game details for your favorite sports teams, fast and simple. Download Apple Sports for free on the App Store or find it on your new iPhone. This is clearly demonic.

• 57:31Speaker 03

  Okay, so, thank you for saying that.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  I'm somebody who was raised a Christian and went to Bible school and that kind of stuff as a kid. And youth groups. And then, growing up in central coast of California, let's say, beard in different ways. But...

• 57:56Speaker 03

  The experiences that we've encountered over the last half a dozen years, it's hard to come up with a language to express what we're observing in the world other than the language of theology.

• 58:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, demonic by action. So whether or not demons exist, if they did exist, that is how they would behave. They would prey on children and torture children. And there was the one where there was a suggestion where a child was praying to Jesus, that like there was a joke that someone should dress up like Jesus.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  I'm, I-

• 58:33Joe Rogan?

  Did you see that one, Jamie?

• 58:34Speaker 03

  No, I'm not, I'm not watching this stuff.

• 58:37Joe Rogan?

  I don't even want to. I don't even want, people send it to me and I go, okay. Cause I'm, for the most part, off social media. But every now and then someone will send me something that I have to look at. I'm like, oh my God.

• 58:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:49Joe Rogan?

  And these are, these are emails back and forth. There's one of them where Epstein says, "I enjoyed the torture video." There's these references to pizza, a lot of references to pizza that are 100% some kind of a code.

• 59:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:06Joe Rogan?

  And then it brings you back to Pizza Gate.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:08Joe Rogan?

  And which was widely dismissed. You know, everybody's like, oh, this is a bunch of kooks. Here it is. Uh, she said she felt God's presence next to her when she was in bed. She knows that Jesus watches over her and he helps her save, he helped save her life. And then he writes, "Whoops." And then in response, Jeffrey Epstein says, "You should dress up as him when you see her."

• 59:37Speaker 03

  Um, it is, it is dark.

• 59:40Joe Rogan?

  "You should dress up like Jesus when you see her." What the fuck?

• 59:47Speaker 03

  And, well, look at the line-

• 59:48Joe Rogan?

  You're talking about a little kid that's praying to Jesus.

• 59:50Speaker 03

  Look at the line above it. How am I, how am I supposed to interpret "I'm coming trick"?

• 59:56Joe Rogan?

  The OH Jesus, "I'm coming trick."

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

  It's just the whole thing, but so we see this darkness. It involves leaders in academe, in science, in industry, in politics.

• 1:00:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  And it just, you know, I remember a point in this arc of the last six years where a film crew came onto my farm and wanted to shoot some segments. And they were talking this, and frankly, I thought it was crazy talk. I kind of smiled and, you know, tried to be civil and nice, not contradict them, about the New World Order. And then along comes, you know, then my wife one day says, hey, you ought to look at this book from Klaus Schwab. It's called The New World Order.

• 1:01:03Speaker 03

  Like, what?

• 1:01:07Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he was just saying it out loud.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Joe Rogan?

  I mean, the World Economic Forum had those ads where they were saying, you will own nothing and you will be happy.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it goes back to the current King of England was the guy that kind of launched that. He was the first one to be really talking about that you can, if you, you can use your, use your favorite AI and track it down yourself. I prefer not to use Google these days to try to find stuff. But it, we see vertical after vertical after vertical after vertical, where information has been crafted and manipulated. And the same tools of delegitimization, of...

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  A promotion of these messages that you are a conspiracy theorist, or that you are controlled opposition is another favorite one. A lot of this was pioneered in the 60s by the FBI against the various protest movements. And you can go back and track that. Okay, the narrative of being a collaborator surreptitiously is called bad jacketing. And it has its own language and protocols for how to do this to people, to divide movements.

• 1:02:38Speaker 03

  We're in this, I mean, in a way, it's kind of a glorious moment where we're having a huge amount of social pressures coming together in this moment in time that you and I happen to live in. How fantastic is that? To be at a point in time where there is so much change, there's so much social interaction and pressure and competition between these different philosophies, and we're swimming in it. As somebody writes on a daily basis these essays on Substack, because that's how I

• 1:03:19Speaker 03

  make my living now, because I can't do what I used to do, it's your kid in a candy shop. There's so much corruption, there's so much falsehood being promoted, there's so much of this manipulation of reality. And so if you're in the business of trying to help people to make sense out of that, which is kind of what I do now for a living. It's, you know, I wake up every morning, people, I get the feedback, how do you come up with all these ideas? I'm like, how do you not? All you gotta do is keep your eyes open.

• 1:03:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's not hard to search anymore.

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  So, so you talked about ivermectin. I mean, the ivermectin story is, is still ongoing. There was an announcement the other day from HHS that they are launching new initiatives to investigate the use of ivermectin in cancer. And there was immediate blowback along the lines of oncologists are outraged. You know, the narrative is Bobby, you know, not saying this explicitly, but basically Bobby Kennedy is at it once again promoting falsehoods and conspiracy theories and it's gonna, you know, we're all gonna die because, because scientists are gonna investigate the use of ivermectin and, and other drugs for cancer.

• 1:04:42Joe Rogan?

  So this is the, this is the core question, and this is one of the things that puzzled me to no end. I understood that they were upset that I had gotten better without the use of the vaccine, that I was a popular person, that I was a famous person, and I made a video about a canceled show. Dave Chappelle and I were supposed to do a show, and I made that video to let everyone know that I couldn't do the show because I got COVID. I had no idea it was going to be even controversial. But I listed a bunch of things that I took.

• 1:05:16Speaker 03

  And the shit hit the fan.

• 1:05:17Joe Rogan?

  I talked about IV vitamins. I talked about monoclonal antibodies. I talked about.

• 1:05:23Speaker 03

  Which were allowed.

• 1:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Prednisone, yeah, all these things that I talked about, Z-Pak. I talked about all these different things that I took. There was no mention of any of those things. There was only ivermectin. And that's what really puzzled me. I was like, this is fascinating because I listed a bunch of different things, but there was still demonization of monoclonal antibodies, but they did make them much harder to get and eventually pulled them. I, I have a friend and his friend was in the hospital and they wouldn't administer monoclonal antibodies once he got into the hospital. They wouldn't allow him to have them.

• 1:06:00Speaker 03

  What went on in the hospital is a whole nother thing, but you mentioned.

• 1:06:03Joe Rogan?

  But that's crazy.

• 1:06:04Speaker 03

  So, so the, the why.

• 1:06:07Joe Rogan?

  The why that one medication.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  The only two threads that I can pull on at all is that ivermectin is a miracle drug, I mean Nobel Prize, right?

• 1:06:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  We don't understand completely how it works. In this case, it doesn't seem to be working as an antiviral. It seems to be working as an immunostimulant, pro-inflammatory or pro-immune response in some way that's subtle, because it has this broad spectrum of activity against things that have an immune response component and controlling. But it's off patent. Right. They don't understand it. It's off patent and it, the response is as if it represents a significant threat to some business interests. It's hard to discern that. And you mentioned Z-Pak. So that's another fascinating one.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  And to say that it was only ivermectin, ivermectin was the most prominent, but they were actually effective in shutting down the Z-Pak, the use of hydroxychloroquine. And hydroxychloroquine has a fascinating story. When you mention Z-Pak, you're talking about Zev Zelenko. And Zev was the one that wrote the letter to the president saying, hey, here's this data and this information about this drug that is off patent. We have a huge portfolio of experience in using it, millions and millions of doses. It's safe in pregnancy. What's not to like here?

• 1:07:46Speaker 03

  And the story of that is a fascinating microcosm, because it goes back to Ralph Barrett. Ralph Barrett had published that back years ago, when, you know, he's kind of the guru of coronaviruses. And a good case can be made that he had his fingers all over the engineering of this particular virus. So he had published that this drug was effective against coronaviruses. And Zev Zelenko, who's passed away now, got engaged in trying to find some way to help his patients in New York.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  With recovering from COVID and treating COVID. And he went back, did a deep dive into Barrick's work, pulled out this drug, a drug that's a chloric that had been recommended, wrote to the president about it. He got clinical experience with it. And caveat, Mickey Willis is doing a bio on Zev now, and I'm involved in that, so conflict of interest. But he was the one that pulled it out, sent the letter to the president with his clinical experience.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  The president tasked Peter Navarro with sourcing the drug. And Peter, economist, went to town, I remember the company I was working with, Alchem at the time, getting a call from Peter. Can you come up with some way to make more of this drug here domestically? We want to source it so we have enough doses for everybody. And then, I think it was Lancet, published this paper that had totally made up data that trashed the drug. Said that it's toxic, doesn't work, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It was all fake. Okay? They pulled the paper when it became revealed that it was based on non-existent data, that it was more propaganda, published in one of the top medical journals in the United States.

• 1:09:52Speaker 03

  But by that time, it was completely crushed. So they didn't have to go after Z Stack. They'd already killed Z Stack. Ivermectin, though, that was a new threat. And one of the reasons why it was a threat was there was a meta-analysis that had been done at the Cochrane. So the Cochrane Institute in the UK is like, you know, the Holy Grail for analysis of drugs and biologics. And this process of meta-analysis, they kind of wrote the rules for how to do it. And they had done an analysis that showed that ivermectin was quite effective. And then something happened.

• 1:10:37Speaker 03

  And there was some influence exerted. And suddenly, that meta-analysis got quenched. It got squashed. There were two investigators that were involved in building that. One kind of went underground and got a big grant and carried on as an academic. The other one got so pissed off that she created this organization called the World Council for Health. That's T S Laurie. And she really objected to what happened. But ivermectin, you know, there was a signal there. There was a clear signal there. There was data supporting that signal.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  And then, something happened to cause that meta-analysis to be restructured. And certain studies that were showing how effective it was to be thrown out. And then the suppression of the data coming out of India. You remember that? Uh huh. Uttar Pradesh. And Uttar Pradesh. And I guess it had kind of, it's like the cat was out of the bag. And they had trouble putting it back in. So they just, my sense is, they turned up the amplitude on the propaganda and the censorship in order to try to overcome this. And I'm pretty sure, remember, who was it that held the original patent? Merck.

• 1:12:05Speaker 03

  Now, I was involved as an observer on behalf of Dieter to the active trials that were going on under the Foundation for NIH, which is sponsored in significant way by Merck. And which is now headed up by the former head of Merck Vaccines, Julie Gerberding. Bobby can't get her out. It's the rules. And they were running these clinical trials, including the clinical trial that essentially, by tweaking the dosing, et cetera, made it so that they came up with a result suggesting that ivermectin is not effective. There was a whole lot of manipulation. And the why part, still, the best explanation I've heard is that it had a lot to do with

• 1:12:54Speaker 03

  The risk that if there was an effective countermeasure, then the utilization of the PREP Act and the emergency countermeasures to process, to enable fast-tracking of these vaccines using this new technology, would no longer be valid. Because those are the rules. Is if there's an existing countermeasure, then you can't implement those clauses.

• 1:13:29Joe Rogan?

  So it was all about emergency use authorization?

• 1:13:31Speaker 03

  It's the, I don't know that that's the case. It is.

• 1:13:34Joe Rogan?

  It's the only thing that makes sense when you see how much profit they made.

• 1:13:37Speaker 03

  Which, which was enormous.

• 1:13:39Joe Rogan?

  Enormous. So it was effective. And all that propaganda, regardless of how much exposed them and exposed their methods, they made hundreds of billions of dollars. After a year away, Canelo Alvarez is back in the ring, October 31st, facing undefeated Christian Mobily, live on The Zone, and DraftKings Sportsbook has you covered for the fight. With DraftKings Sportsbook, your number one sportsbook for live betting, you can stay connected as the action unfolds and make your picks in real time. Whether you're locked in for the main event or watching the full card with friends, DraftKings Sportsbook gives you another way to follow the fights you already care about. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app and use the code ROGEN.

• 1:14:21Joe Rogan?

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• 1:14:52Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters.

• 1:15:34Speaker 03

  It, well, and that, that the ugliest part of all of this. I mean, people, the big, big picture, when I talk to people that are still kind of on the fence, trying to make sense out of it. You know, there's still a lot of those folks out there. The, the thing that kind of gets into their brain is the greatest upward transfer of wealth in modern history occurred during COVID.

• 1:16:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Speaker 03

  It wasn't just the vaccines. It was the whole enterprise.

• 1:16:08Joe Rogan?

  With the lockdowns.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  Lockdowns, all the, the, what was done to small businesses? What was done to the economy? The stimulus packages? They're still digging out of all of that fraud. Uh, it, it, you know, in retrospect, for, for average folks that are just trying to put food on the table and pay their rent, to look at, in retrospect, what was, you know, quite literally done to them. The middle class was hollowed out in, like, on hyperspeed. Uh, this-

• 1:16:49Speaker 03

  So yeah, I'm still pissed off about this.

• 1:16:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, you should be. The thing is, not enough people are, and so many people let it go. And part of the reason why not enough people are pissed off about it is because they took the vaccine and they want to justify their decision. And you will talk to a lot of people that make this blanket claim, "The vaccine saved millions of lives." And they'll just say that.

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, because that's the propaganda, along with "safe and effective." That was a promoted narrative. And that was, by the way, the rationale given by the Nobel Prize committee to award to Carrick and Weisman was that these products, which they had, the thesis is, they had been playing the central role. I disagree. I think Peter Colas is the one that should have got it. If you're going to give it for, if you're going to give it for these vaccines, it was Peter Colas and his team at UBC that really was the enabling tech. But be that as it may, the decision's made. And the committee said, basically, you know, millions of lives have been saved, and by

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  giving this Nobel at this time, we are, we hope that it will promote more people to accept this product. That was explicitly the logic given at the time. And that reflects what was really a thrust vector. Joe, I've, you know, it's, what a bizarre world since we met. And, and so I've been sucked into, to call it the center-right of Europe is a little bit of a misnomer, because they're all socialists as far as I'm concerned, Giorgio Malone and everybody else. But, you know, compared to the far-left, they're labeled as neo-Nazis. But I've been traveling to Europe, interacting with these people. You think it was bad for us.

• 1:18:39Speaker 03

  The European Union, the UK and the Canada were order of magnitude worse. That we, we, we should be so grateful that we live in this country at this time and that we still have something like a functioning constitution with a first and second amendment. Look at the poor suckers in Australia and New Zealand.

• 1:19:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  You know, it reminds yourself, it could be a heck of a lot worse here and it has been a heck of a lot worse in, in Europe. I've got buddies in Romania, in the leading alternative party, you know, calling it center right, let's say, but that, you know, recently, I think it was the vice president that came out and said specifically that that last election was stolen. It was in Romania, Georgescu, they tried to put in jail and the logic was that, I think it was TikTok, supporting his campaign had been sponsored by the Russians. It was the same game that they played against Trump of Russian collusion.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  They played that same book in Romania successfully, but in the European Union environment, under the European Council, they, they don't, you know, they ain't got a constitution and they can just step right in and, and throw you in jail, inactivate your candidacy, do whatever if you represent a populist threat to the existing structure. We talk about the deep state, but it's, it, it doesn't, you know, yeah, it's a problem here, but, and, and thank, yeah, Mike Benz, I defer to as, as a notable expert in that

• 1:20:24Speaker 03

  space, but it's, it's a lot worse in Europe and Australia and Canada and the UK and I think, you know, we're, we're in a, in a perilous time here in the United States where, you know, we have the midterm coming up, but.

• 1:20:45Speaker 03

  But people like Bobby are making progress. And these dissident physicians that have risked so many things, and I'm just one. You know, people, I hear people saying, "Oh, Robert, Robert, they've been so mean to you." And I'm like, "Come on, guys. You think they've been mean to me? Then look at what they did to Bobby. And then, if, you know, and then look, I don't have a nick out of my ear, you know? Look at what they did to Trump. What they did to me is just, I'm, I'm nobody compared to that, and they're willing to deploy that kind of capability against me. Think about what's really going on at the higher levels where, where the big games are being played.

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  And, you know, at least we can see it now. At least we have, for those of us that have our eyes open, we have some ability to be aware. But what, what I've spent the last two years mostly trying to convince people about, I hardly ever talk about RNA. I sit, "Oh, I, Joe, I gotta give a caveat. Forgive me. The opinions I'm expressing here are my own and not those of the US government, the CDC, or the ACIP." There, I said it. Okay? But, you know, we, we're in a moment where we're seeing this, how the levers, the gears

• 1:22:15Speaker 03

  of how all this works. Give you an example. Tomorrow, Friday, February 13th, what could possibly go wrong? Hopefully, my plane flight out of here works okay, and they don't have a drone attack or something, right? So tomorrow, there's a lawsuit.

• 1:22:36Speaker 03

  A filed on behalf of the American Academy of Pediatrics that seeks to shut down the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and the changes that Bobby has implemented there. And force all of that to go back to the way things were when it was functionally controlled by the professional societies and particularly the American Academy of Pediatrics. We talk about this propaganda and weaponization and lawfare and those things, and we talk about it as if it only happened in the last administration.

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  It's still ongoing all the time, and it is going to go big time if the House turns, which I think it probably will. I mean, there's a good chance that they've already drawn up articles of impeachment against Secretary Kennedy, they're talking about articles of impeachment against President Trump, we're about to go into another two years of stagnation and functional, what do we call it? We can't call it civil war. War by other means is where we're heading right now.

• 1:23:55Speaker 03

  But at this moment, I'm seeing major movement. Kennedy is doing great stuff. The President is doing great stuff. We're seeing a transformation in America's global reach, totally restructuring global politics. And on the health side, the Make America Healthy Again movement, there's some pushback against that and a heck of a lot of propaganda being deployed against it.

• 1:24:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's this old quote that seems sort of abstract for most people most of the time, but rings kind of true, but you're finding it true more and more. Money is the root of all evil.

• 1:24:38Speaker 03

  Profound, a simple but profound, yeah.

• 1:24:41Joe Rogan?

  I mean, this is the, the COVID thing with ivermectin and alternative medications, off-label medications, why? Money.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  I think it also has to do with control.

• 1:24:54Joe Rogan?

  Right, which means more money, more access to money.

• 1:24:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's money and power, in my mind.

• 1:25:00Joe Rogan?

  The power, they don't want power without money. They want, they want to benefit from that power.

• 1:25:05Speaker 03

  I, I believe for the likes of Larry Fink and Bill Gates, I mean, they can't spend all that they have.

• 1:25:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  It's a marker. It's, it's like chips. You're stacking up, exactly.

• 1:25:18Joe Rogan?

  Right, they're scoring in a video game.

• 1:25:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, and, and.

• 1:25:22Joe Rogan?

  But also captured by their past actions and constantly trying to obfuscate from all the things that they have done in the past that could be, like, if you just went into Bill Gates's stuff that he did in Africa, giving children polio with the polio vaccine that was from the AP News.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Africa and India.

• 1:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  I mean, he's kind of banned from India. The, yeah, so I don't get it. I don't get where these people live. I, I'm, I'm happy. You know, as far as I'm concerned, I could walk away from all this stuff. It's just kind of a sense of obligation of what are you going to do when you're 66? I have this opportunity to impact in a positive way on the world on my way out the door. Who wouldn't take it? Well, I guess a lot of people wouldn't. But I don't have a need to have power. I have, thank God for my Substack subscribers, I have all, all that I need. My wife is happy, my horses are fed, my farm is paid off.

• 1:26:27Speaker 03

  It's, it's, you know, it's, and I have the luxury of doing good works. And that's enough. I don't, I don't get this, this global power thrust and hunger.

• 1:26:40Joe Rogan?

  Because that's not what you do. That's not your thing. But if you were a politician or you were some megalomaniacal billionaire sort of business character that just wants to dominate and was involved in a bunch of antitrust lawsuits in the past, that would be what

• 1:26:56Speaker 03

  Not that we're naming any names.

• 1:26:58Joe Rogan?

  Not that we're naming any names. It bribed off multimedia corporations to the tune of 300-plus million dollars so that they wouldn't write bad stories about him.

• 1:27:06Speaker 03

  Or, or owns, you know, functionally owns the World Health Organization.

• 1:27:11Joe Rogan?

  Right. And a giant chunk of American farmland was for a while trying to push that fake meat shit on everybody until that dropped off a cliff.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and yeah, so this, the business models aren't working out so good for the globalists, are they?

• 1:27:24Joe Rogan?

  I think a lot of it is because of information that's available now.

• 1:27:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  And you can't control, like, one of the things that did happen during COVID is these places like CNN, people stopped going to for information. They don't believe them anymore. There's just too much bullshit and no one got in trouble for spreading that bullshit. There was no corrections, no redactions, no, no apologies.

• 1:27:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. No acknowledgement.

• 1:27:50Joe Rogan?

  And so people now, more than ever in my lifetime, mistrust mainstream media. And polls show that. The polls show that the trust of mainstream media is at an all-time low, for good reason. They did it to themselves. They prostituted themselves out to the pharmaceutical drug companies. They had to say what they had to say on television. People knew what they were saying was incorrect. And now no one trusts them.

• 1:28:14Speaker 03

  So, to this thread. About four years ago, I, I read a, a report from the Trusted News Initiative. You remember the TNI?

• 1:28:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:23Speaker 03

  Was launched by the BBC.

• 1:28:25Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:28:25Speaker 03

  Uh, to counter Russian disinformation and then repurposed to counter vaccine disinformation.

• 1:28:33Speaker 03

  And they, and I read this report about, I'd gone on your show. So I was a little bit of a fan, forgive me. And so I'm reading this report and they're talking about threats to the industry. Because TNI is basically another trade organization. It's another guild. It's a global, major media guild. And so they're, they're doing this internal analysis and reporting and, and they're talking about the risk vectors that they face. And they had a whole great big section on Joe Rogan. Joe Rogan represents, that, that was, that was their threat.

• 1:29:14Speaker 03

  That, that was the major threat to their business model is you and what you represent. You as a metaphor for this new information economy. And by God, they called it right. It's, it's, and, and when I, this, again, this has been part of my journey. When I realized what I was experiencing and what it meant to come on your show and have that event occur, which was, by the way, blew up my subscribers on Substack. Thank you so much.

• 1:29:48Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:29:48Speaker 03

  I still get a wave every year about in, in the month following, so January, I get a big bump in revenue.

• 1:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Well, it blew up our subscribers on Spotify, too. During the heat of it, we gained, in one month, we gained 2 million subscribers. What are we at now, Jamie?

• 1:30:06Speaker 03

  I had, I had, oh yeah, please.

• 1:30:08Joe Rogan?

  What is the, what's the Spotify subscribers? I never, I know YouTube is over 20, 20 million. What is Spotify at?

• 1:30:17Speaker 03

  So while he's looking that up, I had this bizarre experience. You know, I'm just an old gray haired guy with a, with, you know, about to have my 47th wedding anniversary.

• 1:30:25Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:30:26Speaker 03

  Thank you. I'm proud of it.

• 1:30:30Speaker 03

  I would have 20 year olds come up in the street and fist bump me. I'm like, what the hell?

• 1:30:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they don't have a representative. I mean, they don't see anyone.

• 1:30:42Speaker 03

  All males, all males.

• 1:30:42Joe Rogan?

  Yes, males. Those males don't have anybody in mainstream news that represents anything that resembles them. I mean, I know I'm much older than them, but I never went down this path of decay and weirdness that a lot of adult males go into corporate business and industry. And they become something unrecognizable to these young men who have freedom in life. And they're being suppressed and they're being told that they're toxic.

• 1:31:09Speaker 03

  That was the singer, right there.

• 1:31:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Speaker 03

  Young men that have freedom in life.

• 1:31:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:13Speaker 03

  And then they compromise themselves.

• 1:31:15Joe Rogan?

  They don't wanna be what their dad is. They don't wanna be what their uncle is. They don't wanna be these people that they work for. They're like, what is this fucking bullshit life? I don't want that. I know I'm being lied to. I know the news is full of shit. And I know that this one guy, who is also a cage fighting commentator and a comedian, and doesn't have to lie. Like, I'm not being, I don't have a boss, really. I mean, Spotify promotes the show, they put the show out, we're in partnership with them, but there's no one telling me what to do, which is why you're here right now. Cause there's no one, I don't have a conversation with no one.

• 1:31:55Joe Rogan?

  I literally like, reach out to my guy and say, hey, contact Mr. Malone, and let's get him back on.

• 1:32:03Speaker 03

  All I know, all I know is I got a message through X.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:09Speaker 03

  Saying, Joe Rogan, do you wanna come on?

• 1:32:11Joe Rogan?

  That was actually me. That message is me, which I rarely use those things, but I was trying to figure out how to contact you. So I've reached out to you there, and then I sent it to my guy, and he takes care of it. Like, that's it. There's no one else. There's no one involved in all that, which, you can still be you that way. As soon as you get involved in enormous groups of humans and a board, you have to sit down at a table with other executives, you have to make decisions based on the profitability of the company and shareholders and stuff. I have none of that. It's a skeleton crew.

• 1:32:46Speaker 03

  So, as I look back, you know, the question, why were you able to do this, Malone?

• 1:32:55Speaker 03

  Why were you able to, you know, "Oh, you were so brave, Dr. Malone." I could...

• 1:33:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, Robert Malone, that name became like a majorative. It became like, "Oh, he had that Malone guy."

• 1:33:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's all weaponized.

• 1:33:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:08Speaker 03

  But then, on the other side, I tour. I do these rallies and stuff like this. And, you know, it really makes my wife nervous. I'm... Middle-aged women come up to me and they want to have selfies. And I get this, "Oh, Dr. Malone, you were so brave. You're such a hero," kind of stuff, which I frankly find a little embarrassing. I mean, it's sweet, but, yeah, there's a lot of heroes.

• 1:33:36Joe Rogan?

  Real heroes.

• 1:33:36Speaker 03

  Why was that? Yeah, yeah, the guys that, you know, defend the nation.

• 1:33:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  But why was I able to speak? I think a big part of it was I had no debt. I wasn't beholden to anybody.

• 1:33:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:52Speaker 03

  And, like you say, I'd been about a decade being a consultant, a free-living consultant, and it had gotten under my skin. I've always been independent, you know, farmer, carpenter kind of stuff. And that's, I guess, been part of my problem, is I just don't fit in in corporate life. I can't suck up to people, and it's just not in me.

• 1:34:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a very unhealthy environment for anybody to get sucked into that bizarre group think. This episode is brought to you by Black Rifle Coffee, the only coffee we drink here at the JRE Studios. America's 250th birthday celebration may be over for some brands, but not for Black Rifle Coffee. They've celebrated America since their founding in 2014 and continue supporting the communities that make America strong. Last year, they eliminated $34 million in veterans' medical debt. That's real relief to families who served our nation. And this year, they're doing it again, aiming to eliminate even more. Beyond financial support, Black Rifle lives its mission. Every month, they send their employees to support initiatives by the Boot Campaign,

• 1:34:58Joe Rogan?

  Folds of Honor, and others, giving back to veterans, first responders, and their families. Every bag, box... Or can directly supports that mission. You can grab killer roasts like Just Black. That's my favorite Spirit of 76 or the extra caffeinated Waken the Neighbors at Walmart, your local Black Rifle Coffee Shop, or if you're in Texas at HEB. Veteran founded, American roasted, Black Rifle Coffee is America's coffee. This episode is brought to you by Simply Safe. Stuff can always be replaced, but your loved ones, a sense of security. Those are priceless and often overlooked in security systems, but not with Simply Safe. In fact, they have a pretty interesting and smart approach, taking action before the worst can happen instead of after.

• 1:35:42Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:17Speaker 03

  It's just good word. Yeah. So, yeah. So, so, uh, the, this decentralized subscriber base model. The epiphany was, and I'm being quite sincere. You know, it was one of those moments, my wife and I looked at each other and we said, what the hell are we going to do now? Um, our consulting business is shot. Nobody wants to talk to me. I've been delegitimized. They say, I don't know what I know. I haven't done what I've done. Uh, and this has been promoted by all the top liberal publications in the world.

• 1:36:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:52Speaker 03

  And, uh, so, so I said, okay, Rogan built this thing day after day, week after week for years. He just stayed on it and doing it, and we can do that too. We can bring that kind of work ethic into our world. Steve Kirsch had told me you ought to get on Spotify and we went, we took it on seriously. We've published thousands of essays now, almost every day. It's, you know. You mean Substack. Substack, what did I say, Substack, I apologize. And, and so we just work at it again and again and again, trying to put out content. And we're, we're shadow banned and small roomed on X in a serious way.

• 1:37:38Speaker 03

  You know, I got 1.3 million subscribers of which, you know, all the time I get feedback. I never see your stuff. Well, it's algorithmic, whatever it is, you know, and you can ask Grok about Robert Malone. And, and, you know, you get back, you know, I'm, I'm a controversial figure. But, you know, not whining.

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  And so we have, we have a lot of subscribers, but we just have this core paid subscribers. And they send in their five bucks a month. And it's all we need and it totally sets us free. We, we can talk about whatever we want. And yeah, now that I'm pseudo-government employee, I'm a special government employee without pay. Boy, that's like the worst of both worlds. Cause, cause there's, I have, the, the truth is, I have guardrails that, that constrain me in a way that I didn't used to be constrained for talking about some things. You know, I, I have to live in this world.

• 1:38:47Speaker 03

  I interface with the secretary and, and with the deputy chief of staff and other people. And now I'm working with the state department more. And so, you know, I have to, I have to be more mindful. What is your function? Like what, what do you do over there? At State or? Yeah, both. When you're working for the government, like, how do they use your services? So, um, the special government employee category is a designation from the executive branch. It's the one that Elon had. I like to say, I'm in the same category as Elon was, only without all the money.

• 1:39:26Speaker 03

  So he was a SGE without pay. I'm an SGE without pay. And because I serve on the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices of the CDC, which is this, they call it, it's a FACA Committee, Federal Advisory Committee Act, that advises the director of the CDC, that's its only job, on vaccine policy. Okay. So I'm the vice chair, which is largely honorary. What that means is that if the chair isn't there, I draw the short straw and I have to chair those bloody meetings, like the last one for hepatitis B, Berthos, which was just a slugfest, ugly, the worst meeting I've ever had to adjudicate in my entire

• 1:40:10Speaker 03

  life. But for the most part, I sit on these subcommittees, I sit on the COVID Working Group Subcommittee. I'm not supposed to talk about the next meeting, I was told two days ago. So that's one of my, my Card rails. But stay tuned for what is going to come down if the AAP lawsuit doesn't prevail and we're allowed to actually have the meeting. But, so that's that. I'm also the chair of the Influenza Working Group, stay tuned for that. And now I am, so, and I, from time to time, the secretary asks me to help him sort out

• 1:40:54Speaker 03

  some issue, you know, I'll get a phone call. I once got a phone call on, on the Big Island. I did this recent series of rallies to try to, you know, to recap the whole reason why that we did that first hit was to try to publicize the Stop the Mandates Rally in DC. That was the, that was the subtext for that, as you recall, and I forgot to even mention it, we had to go back in to, to do another shoot for that, remember? I'm still fighting that same battle of trying to stop these mandated vaccines. So I'm sitting there in Hawaii, I'm going to another one of these rallies, I get a call out of the blue from one of Bobby's people, and they want some advice about a

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  topic having to do with the decision he has to make about spending money on another bio defense initiative. So I get that kind of stuff. He called me soon after he was confirmed to get my opinion about what was going on in the chicken industry. And all the slaughter that was happening for bird flu. And I told him, this doesn't make sense. It's not good policy. There's no way you can get rid of bird flu doing this. It's in the wild bird populations. And this is just nonsensical, what they're doing.

• 1:42:06Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think they did that?

• 1:42:10Speaker 03

  Okay, so that's, that's interesting. That now we drive into a kind of public health and vaccinology. You're asking the why.

• 1:42:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:22Speaker 03

  And it's been a longstanding policy.

• 1:42:23Joe Rogan?

  Because they killed millions of chickens, right?

• 1:42:25Speaker 03

  They do it every time.

• 1:42:26Joe Rogan?

  Every time there's a bird flu.

• 1:42:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's in, in any other outbreak. So, right now, in Spain, I just wrote an essay about this. It was the, maybe the biggest reveal on what's going on in Spain right now. There's a Spanish research lab that's been collaborating with the USDA that is investigating swine fever virus. And they're actually doing gain-of-function research on swine fever virus. Swine fever virus, African swine fever virus kills pigs like crazy. And already China has locked down and will not accept Spanish pork. And it is a lab leak.

• 1:43:04Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:43:04Speaker 03

  And there was a bunch of dead hogs last November around this facility. And now it's the, the Spanish and the European Union are, are, you know, blowing a circuit over this. Because it's really compromised the Spanish pork industry. So, so this kind of stuff, when, when this happens, the, the reaction is, we just have to kill all of them. We have to kill all the potential carriers. And this has been the wisdom, quote, of, in, in this kind of

• 1:43:43Speaker 03

  agrarian, animal husbandry world for a long time in the context in particular of factory farming.

• 1:43:53Speaker 03

  So the logic is that if you were to vaccinate these birds with a leaky vaccine, which, you know, COVID was a leaky vaccine, influenza is a leaky vaccine, if you give the birds a leaky vaccine, what you'll get out of that Variance. is precisely vaccine-resistant flu. Right. Okay? And so, we have no choice, has been the logic, but to exterminate, you know, like the ostriches in Canada, remember that story? Yeah. That was shocking. Yeah. Okay, there was no logic behind that. It's gone, it's become entrenched as policy, as kind of this reflexive knee-jerk thing, that if we have an outbreak, what we do is we kill, because we can't control the virus.

• 1:44:38Speaker 03

  And the things that we could do to control the virus aren't really going to control it, and it's actually going to make things worse. Is there any logic to that? Uh, we can argue with the margins, we can argue with the margins, but when you've got something that, if you had something that didn't have a natural reservoir, then you can make the case that you could eliminate it in that geographic population and keep it from spreading outside. But when you have a natural reservoir, like- Explain that. Explain the natural reservoir. Okay.

• 1:45:13Speaker 03

  In the case of avian influenza, waterfowl and migratory birds are amazing vectors for carrying and propagating influenza. And influenza survives in water for a very long period of time. And so you've got ducks and geese traveling north to south, all over every continent, that are susceptible to infection by avian influenza, and all the other migratory birds. But in particular, the waterfowl, galliforms, my wife would-

• 1:45:55Speaker 03

  Wrap me on the head if I didn't use the right term. So, she's an avian specialist. So, so these, these birds carry the flu and a number of them are relatively resistant. They've been subjected to avian influenza for centuries or millennia. And sometimes you'll get a variant come out that'll wipe out a whole bunch of birds. West Nile virus in crows is a great example. And now you have crow populations coming back that are resistant to West Nile. We haven't gotten rid of West Nile. We've just bred more resistant birds. That's kind of, you know, that's Brett Weinstein's space, right? That's evolution. It's magical.

• 1:46:38Speaker 03

  And so if you have a natural animal reservoir, like the ticks and Lyme and deer. What are you gonna do? Exterminate all the deer? No, that's not practical. Mao tried to exterminate the birds because of the thesis that they were eating up all the spare grain and compromising availability of food to the populace, right? And what happened? Major ecological catastrophe. You can't eliminate the birds. You can't go and kill all the waterfowl. That would just be ecologically insane.

• 1:47:22Speaker 03

  But, you know, sometimes we do insane things. And in the case of avian influenza, it's there. It's endemic. It's in all that migratory waterfowl. They poop an amazing amount of influenza. It gets in the water supply. The water supply goes everywhere. They, you know, small birds are interacting with, I don't know if you've ever been around a chicken barn or turkey barns? Okay, yeah, there's chickens and then there's commercial chicken production, right? So, so these operations are like Petri dishes for bad stuff happening. And the only way you can interfere with that, and by the way, the Amish are starting to do it, is put something in the water supply. And what the Amish are using is a compound called hypochlorous acid.

• 1:48:07Speaker 03

  And it's stopping these things and it's stopping the E. coli and a lot of other stuff. But the US, that's another problem, is, you know, when you have these, the momentum of these large government agencies with their consensus about the way things are done. You know, there's a saying that the only time the FDA ever changes is if somebody in a key position retires or passes away. They kind of get entrenched in this is how we do things. We kill chickens. If we have avian influenza come out, we kill chicken barns.

• 1:48:45Speaker 03

  And this is the beauty of Secretary Kennedy coming in, being kind of not invested in the way things are and the way we do things, and being willing to ask the questions, does this really make sense? And that has been heresy. It's obviously is still heresy to do that, to ask those questions, to, you know, have the president say, we need to restructure the vaccine schedule. Oh, my God, the sky is falling, kids are going to die left and right, there's going to be death on the street because we ended the thimerosal in multidose influenza vials? This kind of catastrophic thinking.

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  But Kennedy has, and the president, have the courage to question these narratives, these long-held-standing beliefs. In the case of the bird flu, you know, he called me up, I said, Bobby, I don't think this makes sense. I think that what we really need to do is we need to breed resistant chickens. And the way we breed resistant chickens, and by the way, we've written about this also in our Substack, there are, in the domain of chicken cultivars, you have chickens, you know, there are people that are just freaks about chickens. Yeah. And all of these, but because of that, we have this huge repository of different cultivars of chickens. You know, we could say they were all generated through gain-of-function research, the old

• 1:50:14Speaker 03

  school way. And a number of those are relatively resistant to bird flu. Well, in a logical world... You would have Tysons, and you know, maybe the government has to incentivize this. It shouldn't have to. You would have Tysons in there saying, "Well, guys, what we need is a bird flu-resistant chicken. Let's get on it." Okay? And that is essentially the position that the secretary took, is this policy of just extremely aggressive mass culling is not producing the outcome that we want. It has never produced the outcome that we want. It will never eliminate bird flu because it has an endemic reservoir, and we've got

• 1:50:58Speaker 03

  to think different. And now that's starting to percolate through the system, and there is more research into alternative strategies, including the possibility of various prophylactic interventions in feed and in water. That's, you know, and a lot of these chicken houses mist. As you recall, they have the misters because they've got to control the temperatures. So they are set up with misters, and that can also be a way to deliver things that are non-toxic, like H O C L, that can knock out these viruses and E. coli and other things

• 1:51:37Speaker 03

  that cause reduced growth and loss of weight in chickens, which is the metric that Tysons and those guys is food conversion. That's the metric they all pray to. You know, there's different, we can, we can think differently, and we have been locked into, you know, consensus that has emerged over decades based on old ways of thinking. And the same people are in charge, so they don't want to change. And, and they kind of often kind of have these lineages where they're passing power on to the people that they've mentored. So that's, that's my HHS world, and then the State Department world is a new thing that's

• 1:52:22Speaker 03

  come in. I have a, I'm, I'm starting to support the group under Secretary Rubio that's responsible for the various treaties having to do with arms containment, and in particular, the bioweapons convention. So this morning, I got up early, and you know, there was, so...

• 1:52:47Speaker 03

  Honest to God, I don't want to pump you up too much. I mean, you might get an ego or something. But so I say to the state, they say, Robert, we want you to go to Geneva to give this talk on the use of AI for monitoring bioweapons threats because we have no way of monitoring compliance with the bioweapons convention right now. And it's been a historic problem. And the president has said that we're gonna, we think that we can apply artificial intelligence to this problem set of of monitoring and verifying compliance with the bioweapons convention, which is heresy. It's another one of these thinking outside of the box

• 1:53:26Speaker 03

  things. So they say, we want you to go to Geneva and give this talk and be the keynote. And I say, and what's the date? Oh, it's February 12. And I say, I don't talk about this because, you know, it's the general thing. You don't tell people that you're going to be on Rogan. You let Rogan say that when Rogan's ready. And so I said, but I'm scheduled for Rogan that day. And they're like, oh, Rogan. Well, OK, absolutely. You got to go on that one. That's way more important than than going and speaking at the UN. So you're the State Department thinks you're more important than me talking about bioweapons.

• 1:54:09Speaker 03

  And they let me web exit. So so that's what happened this morning. And it is a so I'm supporting that group now and maybe increasingly over time. And I don't know where that goes.

• 1:54:26Joe Rogan?

  So you were talking about these pigs that it's a lab leak that's giving these

• 1:54:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, in Spain.

• 1:54:33Joe Rogan?

  And what is it? Another gain of function laboratory where they're

• 1:54:37Speaker 03

  So this is, this is truly a breaking news thing. Our media is not covering it. And

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  Shocker.

• 1:54:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. It is being covered in Europe, and particularly in Spain. This is a major economic threat because they're, I think, the number two pork producer in the world.

• 1:54:59Speaker 03

  And, you know, in the hogs that are feeding on acorns, et cetera, that's, that's a big specialty market space. Yeah. So, last November,

• 1:55:10Speaker 03

  this, this laboratory that is ostensibly working, this is, I mean, it's Wuhan 2.0. Only, the good news is that this is not

• 1:55:22Speaker 03

  swine flu. People get that confused. I'm not talking about swine flu. This is African swine fever. It's been around for millennia. It's never crossed into humans. It's a very different virus. So just make sure we got that clear. Okay. So, this highly lethal African swine fever virus

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  is, is a threat to the global pork industry. And, uh, so this laboratory in Spain is cooperating with the USDA to try to develop a new vaccine for African swine fever. And in doing so, that they, our government, once again, was unaware that this even existed. There's a cooperative agreement between USDA and this laboratory to engage in, if you read, they don't call it gain-of-function research. They call it building recombinant viruses and experimenting in different virus structures

• 1:56:29Speaker 03

  to allow them to better, build a better vaccine. Exactly the same logic that was used in Wuhan. Okay. Now, then, last November, so this is ongoing, in this little laboratory, and what this relates to, Joe, is the idea that is being promoted that for justice and equity and sharing, we need to enable there being a distribution of highly infectious pathogens all over the world in separate laboratories so that we're, we in the big bad West are not imposing and enabling our industries to prey on, name your, uh, emerging economy.

• 1:57:14Speaker 03

  By taking biologic resources from them, in other words, new viruses, and using them to build stuff, we have to cooperate and they have to have access to these regions. So the logic right now that's in play and being promoted by the WHO is that we should have high pathogen repositories and research programs all over the world, decentralized in these emerging economy states. You know, Spain is, not Germany. But, so, so there's a Spanish lab, USD is cooperating with them, they're gonna build a African swine fever virus vaccine, they're doing gain of function research, and then,

• 1:57:55Speaker 03

  and by the way, just like in Wuhan, there's some construction going on related to that. And then, suddenly, and it's an area that is very dense in wild hogs. Now, somehow, we gotta get this through our brain, okay? You don't put the facility in a place that's proximal to the thing that might get infected if you have a lab leak. I mean, that's, that ought to be like rule number one stamped on everybody's brain. You don't do it. Like, the Rocky Mountain labs make a lot of sense. If you're gonna be working with nasty stuff, and you gotta do it, put it somewhere obscure, not in Boston, right? So they're doing it, they're surrounded by dense wild hog population, and suddenly, last

• 1:58:39Speaker 03

  November, people detect there is wild hogs dead all over around this facility. What could possibly have happened? So they start investigating, the people, police have been in, grabbed the records, grabbed the digital information, etc., because the entire Spanish pork industry is now compromised. Their major client, China, has already pulled their trade barriers. No more Spanish pork going into China. I advocate that President Trump ought to drop the curtain, right now. Because when I looked at the distribution of wild hogs, I mean, you've traveled enough,

• 1:59:17Speaker 03

  you know how important wild feral hogs are in the economy in Italy. The wild hogs are all over in Europe, and this place in Catalonia is right near the French border. I don't, and then, like, right on the other side, a couple hundred miles, is Italy. And, and the band of, of high-density wild hogs spreads like that up through the mountains and then down into Italy. And, and I think that, uh, if, if I was sitting in the White House right now, I think,

• 1:59:55Speaker 03

  uh, to protect, you know, both for, uh, the president, core constituency is ag. Voted for him, you know, three times. And he's, that, he holds that near and dear. And I think that, uh, it's good politics and it's good public health. It's good health, uh, agricultural decision to raise the barriers now. Um, until we can see that Europe has resolved the risk associated with this.

• 2:00:30Joe Rogan?

  How are they gonna resolve that?

• 2:00:32Speaker 03

  So, once again, what-

• 2:00:35Joe Rogan?

  It's wild hogs. This is not like it's anything that's contained.

• 2:00:38Speaker 03

  I, I, and, and to your point, I don't know the answer. I mean, that, right now, what they're doing is they're using drones, uh, to try to find, you know how hard it is to hunt wild hawk?

• 2:00:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They hunt them out of helicopters here in Texas.

• 2:00:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:53Joe Rogan?

  And they still can't even prevent them.

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. And the hogs are winning. It's like the emu wars in Australia, right?

• 2:00:59Joe Rogan?

  My friend Monty Franklin, who's from Australia, actually has a joke about that. About that we, we fought a war with the emus and we lost.

• 2:01:07Speaker 03

  It's true. It's true. We have emus on our farm and, and they're weird animals, man. It's like living with dinosaurs, uh, but-

• 2:01:14Joe Rogan?

  They're dumb as shit, too.

• 2:01:15Speaker 03

  They are, they're weird. They, my wife says they don't have two brain cells to rub together.

• 2:01:21Joe Rogan?

  No. I, I talked to a lady who's a falconer and she said the dumbest birds by far are emus. Second dumbest are owls, she said.

• 2:01:28Speaker 03

  Oh, really? I didn't know that owls-

• 2:01:30Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 2:01:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, I didn't know that.

• 2:01:32Joe Rogan?

  I always thought they were so smart. Give a hoot, don't pollute. They're always wearing a monocle. You know?

• 2:01:36Speaker 03

  They're always the wise professor. Well, that, right, it goes back to, it goes back to Athens, the symbol of, uh, learning has been the owl.

• 2:01:44Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. Very weird.

• 2:01:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, so emus are weird.

• 2:01:47Joe Rogan?

  So they have to try and use drones.

• 2:01:48Speaker 03

  But, uh, so the, the hogs, I, I don't know what they're gonna do. What they did to control in Europe, so, uh, the former assistant director general of the WHO, who I knew, this was her claim to fame, was she had led the development of rabies baits.

• 2:02:03Speaker 03

  And they would bait with a rabies vaccine to try to control the incidence of rabies in particularly foxes was the problem throughout Europe. And a lot of the foxes were crossing from the less developed part of the European Union into France, which was not acceptable. She was French. And so what they did is they developed these baits with a vaccine and they would distribute them out of helicopters. And there's a whole science about how dense the baits have to be to get immunity against

• 2:02:45Speaker 03

  rabies in fox populations, a whole science around it. But they was successful. They controlled fox and wolf population, rabies in Europe largely eradicated it through the use of baits distributed by helicopters. Do they have a vaccine for this? No, they don't. That's what they were supposed to be developing. That was the whole purpose. They were supposed to be developing, but really what they were developing is a more transmissible strain. Whatever. Yeah. In order to prove that they could, I don't know. You know? It's the same story over and over and over again. It's Wuhan 2.0. Exactly. And how are we not going to see this as an increasing trend?

• 2:03:27Speaker 03

  And there's the whole dark side that, you know, when I, you know, I read my comments, maybe I shouldn't sometimes, but I do. Don't do it after this show. Yeah. So, you know, you get the blowback, well, this is all by intention because they're building market for whatever it is that they want to market, right? That's the, there's one of the dark themes about COVID was that they wanted to promote the spread of COVID in order to sell the vaccines and blah, blah, blah. You know, so that's the narrative. And so in this case, well, they want to spread African swine fever because somehow they're going to profit from that while destroying their pork industry.

• 2:04:07Speaker 03

  You know, but this is, this is the armchair strategists on the internet. But that- Has it gotten into the domestic pork market? Interesting question, not to my knowledge yet, but I have this interesting colleague that I work with closely at the ACIP named Retzof Levy, who's the chair of the COVID Working Group and is giving the pharmaceutical industry a run for their money right now. And it's, of course, being vilified by the press, et cetera. And Retzof is a full professor at MIT, and his core competence is risk analysis and mitigation.

• 2:04:49Speaker 03

  And he reads my Substack, because we're friends. He doesn't subscribe, I'm pretty sure, but he reads it. And so we're talking, and he says, "Yeah, I read that thing that you put out about that virus." And he said, "I wrote a proposal years ago about risk mitigation and the need to do something about that because of the ease by which it can enter the domestic pork population." So I infer from that that there is a whole body of science and logic about, and he said it's very readily transmitted into commercial pork, which is why the Chinese have already

• 2:05:32Speaker 03

  dropped, you know, dropped the curtain and said, "No, we're not going to allow any of that into China because of the risk." I mean, what we're talking about, so I wrote an essay about low-risk, high-impact events, which is what we're talking about. Another example of a low-risk, high-impact event is gene-drive technology that Gates is promoting to exterminate the mosquitoes, for example. You know, gene-drive technology can be used to exterminate a species, particularly ones that have a high reproductive rate. And, you know, it's another one that is a CRISPR application.

• 2:06:15Speaker 03

  But there's a whole school of thought that gene-drive tech should never be let out of the box into the environment. Because in the what's, you know, there are those that are actively promoting its use and to eliminate bad stuff. And, you know, we're all for eliminating bad stuff. You know, organisms, insects, worms, flies, stuff. And yet, it, and, and we can do experiments where we say, oh, we'll cultivate this kind of fly together with that kind of fly, and only these flies are going to have gene drive,

• 2:06:59Speaker 03

  and we're going to look for whether or not it gets over into these flies. And if it doesn't, then we can conclude that it's unlikely. But as Brett would tell you, we're dealing with ecosystems here, really complex ecosystems. And the, the risk environment now that I think grownups have to acknowledge, coming out of COVID, you know, the big lessons. We can, we can, we can talk about these egregious things that we've all experienced that have been put on us. But the big picture is, this thing came out, and I'm convinced it was engineered. I'm, I, I believe the most likely hypothesis is not that it was intentionally released. I still think that's a possibility.

• 2:07:42Speaker 03

  But that it was an unintentional release, an infection of, of a lab worker or something like that, that let it get out. Because that's what happens again and again in these facilities. The, these low probability events can have extremely high impacts, and as we've seen, global impacts. And we have to rethink how we're managing risk, which is, as I mentioned, RedSif's kind of core competence. And, and that logic runs up against this belief that, well, it hasn't happened so far,

• 2:08:22Speaker 03

  and I'm an expert, and I have the right to play around in this, in this sandbox that I've helped develop. I know more than you do. How can you tell me that I shouldn't be doing that? You don't have the right to tell me. I'm the expert in this space. And to come into that environment and say, look, guys, you're playing around with stuff that could have a very high impact, even though it hasn't happened yet. And you got to, to rethink.

• 2:08:53Speaker 03

  What is acceptable? And I think that, you know, we were talking a moment about the State Department and weapon control. We're now in an environment where the speed of growth of the power of biotechnology is accelerating. It's going exponential, just like what we saw with semiconductors. And our bioethics, our regulatory structures, our way of thinking about those risks is

• 2:09:32Speaker 03

  completely unable to keep up with the pace of the advance. And that is creating a whole new threat scene, not to scare people. I mean, as I was thinking about coming on here, I was saying to myself, okay, Robert, just take a deep breath. It's only Joe Rogan, he's a human, and you want to stay positive. And I don't want to go dark and just scare people, but we've got to take, we've got to recognize that this is a different world now.

• 2:10:10Speaker 03

  We have all of this digital tech and what it means and information control and suppression and manipulation psychologically, basically programming, customized programming through avatars and all of this power. But we also have in parallel this world of rapidly advancing biotechnology that is, you know, for the likes of Yuval Harari and those that are imagining a future of transhumanism. And all of that means we're moving very rapidly into a world.

• 2:10:59Speaker 03

  That we can hardly even process. One of the big thrust vectors in Silicon Valley right now relating to reproductive rights has to do with the development of artificial wombs. You know, these wealthy, privileged people don't want to carry their own babies. And I guess surrogates are too cumbersome or risky. So they're really talking about- It's not talking. It's not talking. They're, they're, we're going to run an essay about this soon. They already have a lamb that they have grown de novo in an artificial womb. Oh, God. We're, we're there. Okay? And, and these people see it as freeing.

• 2:11:43Speaker 03

  This, this is, this is more women's rights. You know, we, we don't need to have the organic process of carrying a baby. And that's a good thing, they believe. You know, completely disregarding that there is a whole lot of subtle, complex interactions that occur between mother and fetus- Yes. -in the womb, okay? That gives rise to-

• 2:12:12Joe Rogan?

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• 2:13:44Joe Rogan?

  Right. Who knows what kind of humans you're going to develop with no interaction with the mother at all? The entire nine months where they're developing?

• 2:13:55Speaker 03

  But that-

• 2:13:55Joe Rogan?

  The exchange of hormones.

• 2:13:57Speaker 03

  But for the sake of convenience, we want to do that.

• 2:13:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, God.

• 2:14:01Speaker 03

  Okay? And that, what that, you know, zoom in on that. Okay? That has all kinds of implications. It has implications for organ transplantation. My friend Yonah Kelik, I don't know if you, no Yon, if you've ever had him on, you might want to sometime. Interesting character. He is the Washington bureau chief for this newspaper that is defamed all the time, ridiculed, Epoch Times. Okay? Which I think is like the only print newspaper left in the United States that's worth reading that ascribes to classical journalism. But he's just come out with a book about organ harvesting in China. And organ harvesting on demand, documenting that they are using live prisoners and keeping

• 2:14:46Speaker 03

  them in compounds and testing them for their genetic background and characteristics, and then harvesting them when necessary to provide organs for transplantation largely to Westerners. Because it is enormously profitable. And also to leaders in the CCP. This is what all this brouhaha was about the open-mic event with Putin, about we can use transplantation to let us live another 100 years. Remember that little clip? So that this, in a world in which we can have artificial wombs, we can grow our own clones to provide donor tissue.

• 2:15:25Speaker 03

  To buy, provide an insurance policy. We're, we are right at the doorstep of that. Okay?

• 2:15:32Joe Rogan?

  Again, demonic. It sounds demonic. I mean, is a soul a real thing? Just because it can't be quantified by science? You can't measure it? I mean, the concept of the soul has always existed. If that's a real thing, who knows what you're doing? Creating a human being from an artificial womb? Who knows what kind of processes are happening? We, we know that stress on the mother imparts all sorts of unwanted characteristics in children. We know that. We know like-

• 2:16:05Speaker 03

  All kinds of interactions. The playing of music, that's real.

• 2:16:08Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:16:09Speaker 03

  Okay?

• 2:16:09Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Soothing playing of music, yeah.

• 2:16:12Speaker 03

  So, so that's happening. That, that vector is proceeding. And, once you have that, in the, in a world of CRISPR, okay? You can do genetic modification of a very small number of cells and then grow a fetus from that. Okay? So that opens the door to, do you remember, did you watch the movie Gattaca?

• 2:16:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:35Speaker 03

  Gattaca, absolutely recommended. If you want to understand our brave new world, the one that's really coming at us and the ethical conundrums associated with that, watch Gattaca. And, by the way, it has great production value too, doesn't it?

• 2:16:50Joe Rogan?

  It's a great movie.

• 2:16:51Speaker 03

  Great movie. And totally underappreciated.

• 2:16:53Joe Rogan?

  And terrifying.

• 2:16:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:55Joe Rogan?

  If that's really what our future is.

• 2:16:56Speaker 03

  And, and the title, G A T T A G A, refers to a DNA sequence, by the way. That's why the name Gattaca.

• 2:17:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:17:04Speaker 03

  Okay? So, so, watch the movie. You've already seen it.

• 2:17:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:08Speaker 03

  You get it. Okay? We're moving to that space where we have custom-built humans. Now, it's being, you know, what's driving that? Convenience? Who doesn't want to have a child that's better than, that's like you, but better? Stronger, bigger, you know, smarter? Better vision? Get rid of all the problems that I've got, right? Or you've got, or whomever, you know? And, and in your, in your next offspring. And all you gotta do, because here's another fun fact. At bulk, whole genome sequencing is now about 300 bucks.

• 2:17:47Speaker 03

  Whole genome sequencing is the portal for selective engineering with Cas9 CRISPR systems. So, we're now, we're right on the threshold of that entire spectrum of capability of manipulating animals, life, fundamentals of life in every species and humans. And concurrently, we have the incoming vector of robotics technology and modern computational advance, you know, we're moving rapidly. You know, people say, "Oh, it's gonna be next month, we're gonna have general artificial intelligence." Well, they keep saying that, month after month. What do we got here?

• 2:18:30Speaker 04

  This is a video made about the artificial wombs.

• 2:18:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:18:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:18:37Speaker 04

  I don't know who made this. I was trying to figure out who made this. I don't think the company who's doing it made it, but they might have.

• 2:18:42Speaker 03

  I'm not BSing. I mean, doesn't this look like it's something straight out of The Matrix?

• 2:18:47Joe Rogan?

  100%.

• 2:18:48Speaker 04

  This is all 3D.

• 2:18:49Joe Rogan?

  Obviously, it's not real, but, oh my god, this is terrifying.

• 2:18:53Speaker 03

  This is a business model.

• 2:18:55Joe Rogan?

  Like, what is, what kind of psychology does this child have with no exposure to its mother?

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  Hey, but, for mom, it's a lot more convenient. And she can get the perfect baby that she wants. What's not to like here, Joe?

• 2:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Until it becomes a fucking serial killer. Yeah.

• 2:19:12Speaker 03

  And you put it on SSRIs.

• 2:19:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is the thing about, do you know the story about Ted Kaczynski? One of the stories, one of the things that happened to him? In the Netflix documentary, they go into this. He was very sick when he was a boy, when he was a baby. And they kept him in this nursery with no contact with human beings for a long time, for a long time. No one picked him up when he cried. He just sat in this crib with no contact with his mother, nothing. And he, from then on, I mean, his brother always described him as just like off. Just off. He never had that early-

• 2:19:46Speaker 03

  Early-stage neural development is amazing and profound. By the way, this looks back to the vaccine story. When we're doing all these jabs on these little tiny kids like hepatitis B-Bertos, they're at a stage where this thing is just growing like crazy, and so is their liver and everything else.

• 2:20:04Joe Rogan?

  And you're injecting toxic chemicals into their body.

• 2:20:07Speaker 03

  Which you really haven't characterized well, and you're stacking them.

• 2:20:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:13Speaker 03

  And no one's done the studies.

• 2:20:15Joe Rogan?

  And you're doing it for profit.

• 2:20:17Speaker 03

  This is another thing that the secretary is adamant about and that the president has led on.

• 2:20:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, having them exempt from any legal ramifications of the adverse side effects of vaccines, what they did during the Reagan administration is really, it gave them this...

• 2:20:33Speaker 03

  Free license?

• 2:20:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, free license.

• 2:20:35Speaker 03

  Just go crazy?

• 2:20:36Joe Rogan?

  To just go crazy and jack up the vaccine schedule as high as they could justify. And then, along with it, corresponding profits rise. That's what's fucking scary.

• 2:20:46Speaker 03

  So, if you want to go down that rabbit hole, it's even worse. Once, functionally, because of how difficult it is to prove an endpoint and get a vaccine licensed, once you get it licensed, you basically have a cash cow in perpetuity. And if you get it down on the pediatric schedule, in other words, you manage to jam it through the ACIP, because the ACIP, by the wisdom of Congress, is vested with the authority of authorizing the Vaccines for Children program acquisitions. So, there's no other program in the entire United States government that is outside of congressional oversight.

• 2:21:27Speaker 03

  The ACIP can decide that this vaccine needs to be purchased for the Vaccines for Children program, and historically, because the ACIP has been captured by pharma and by the CDC itself and by academia, those decisions, they never go backwards.

• 2:21:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:46Speaker 03

  And so, you get the product down onto the VFC, the Vaccine for Children program, and the pediatric schedule, and then that triggers the indemnification clause that you're talking about, which, by the way, is different from the one that kicked in with the COVID situation, with the PREP Act. That's even worse. But what you end up with, Joe, is a situation where, as the vaccine manufacturer, think it. You now have no legal liability. You have guaranteed purchasing, distribution, and marketing, because the CDC does all the propaganda. Vaccines are safe and effective. You must take this, right? And then, then you end up with, and it's, in many cases, it's school district level.

• 2:22:30Speaker 03

  It's not even state level. The states have the right to regulate the practice of medicine. The federal government doesn't. That means the CDC can advise that this is the vaccine schedule. And many states, because they don't have the infrastructure to actually process what's going on, they say, well, if the CDC advises it, then we're going to mandate it. Okay? Or, school districts do. And so, you end up in this situation where you, as the manufacturer, get your product on the market, you get it down into this special program, you got guaranteed purchase, guaranteed profit, full indemnification, marketing, purchase, distribution, all paid for by the taxpayer.

• 2:23:09Joe Rogan?

  And no liability.

• 2:23:11Speaker 03

  It's, it's perfect as a business model. What's not to like?

• 2:23:15Joe Rogan?

  It's so scary how many people just go along with it, too.

• 2:23:19Speaker 03

  Oh, they, they don't just go along with it. They are propagandized into believing it as a-

• 2:23:24Joe Rogan?

  And promoting it because of-

• 2:23:25Speaker 03

  As a theology.

• 2:23:26Joe Rogan?

  They've administered to, exactly. I was going to say, it's religious dogma. They've administered it to their children, they believe in it wholeheartedly, and when someone says something like, vaccines don't cause autism, the whole audience will applaud. And you're like, how do you know? How do you know that? Where you're so confident that you're applauding.

• 2:23:42Speaker 03

  Well, it's because of what I've heard. I've heard it so many times.

• 2:23:46Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:23:47Speaker 03

  Of course, I believe it.

• 2:23:48Joe Rogan?

  That's what's twisted about it.

• 2:23:49Speaker 03

  It's just, it's just, well, that, it, in, in, it illustrates the power of what we're dealing with.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:55Speaker 03

  And it, once you get it by thinking through the vaccine story, I mean, you've, you're, you're ruined now, my friend. Because once, once you get it about vaccines, then you see it everywhere.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  Well, I had Suzanne Humphries on, who wrote that book, Dissolving Illusions. And, you know, that, that book is a must-read for anybody who wants to really understand the history of vaccines. And what really happened in terms of the end of pandemics and the introduction of these vaccines, like, what actually took place?

• 2:24:28Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. Oh, that, that- And you know, there's this whole thread of how prevalent lead was in the population in the powdered wigs and so many things that we had. And then when they got rid of the lead, that was concurrent with the onset of widespread vaccination. And so the loss of life associated, or the improvement in loss of life and birth outcomes associated with getting the lead out of the population, well, that's ascribed to the vaccines by the people that are busy marketing vaccines.

• 2:24:59Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:00Speaker 03

  And likewise, the all-

• 2:25:01Joe Rogan?

  DDT.

• 2:25:02Speaker 03

  All the work associated with water sanitation and all of that. No, that's all true. The first time I, to credit where credit's due, as a vaccinologist, the first time I really encountered that logic was Candace Owens had me on years ago. And she said, you know, we've done this deep dive and we've looked at this thing and these infectious diseases go down before the vaccines come up. And yet, we're told this narrative.

• 2:25:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:33Speaker 03

  And of course, we're told this narrative.

• 2:25:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. The polio one's the nuttier one. Because when people are so concerned about polio and polio vaccines and we've cured polio, they're going to bring back polio if they stop the vaccines. When I tell them, what percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic? And that most people think like, none, right? It's 95 to 99% of polio is asymptomatic. And then you find out through Suzanne Humphrey's work that they were spraying DDT ubiquitously all over the country at the same time.

• 2:26:10Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 2:26:11Joe Rogan?

  And it gives you the same exact symptoms of paralytic polio. And then subsequently, the actual first infections that started occurring in this country were occurring in rural areas where they sprayed DDT everywhere.

• 2:26:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, so one of, so there's, if I can kind of throw another log on the fire on that narrative.

• 2:26:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:35Speaker 03

  One of the cool things that I'm getting to see from my perch at the ACIP is people working at the cutting edge of modern genetic technology investigations about cause and effect and genomic effects. And one of the things, you talk about this rare incidence of paralytic polio or myocarditis.

• 2:27:00Speaker 03

  Okay, myocarditis is rare with the vaccine. And yet it happens at a significant rate. It happens more in certain populations than other populations. This was heresy at first, and now they were forced to admit it. And stay tuned later in February. But there's a group that had a big grant to look at genetic links associated with risk factors for this. And strangely, halfway through their program during the Biden administration, all their funding got caught. But they still made a lot of progress, and they kind of limped along with volunteer stuff. Modern, I mentioned the genome costs, 300 bucks a genome.

• 2:27:41Speaker 03

  These guys have gone through, and they've identified seven genes that represent high risk factors for myocarditis after vaccination. Myocarditis after vaccination, by the way, was a major side effect associated with the smallpox vaccines, or one of them. It's been associated with vaccines for quite a while. We just kind of haven't heard about it, and it's particularly bad with these. But there, we, it, it, one of the, you know, trying to continue my theme of it's not all dark. Right. One of the things that's coming out is that if we commit to it and do the research like Team Kennedy is committed to doing, we may well be able to detect those people

• 2:28:25Speaker 03

  that the character, genetic characteristics of those people that might have been at higher risk for, say, paralytic polio or myocarditis. So that we can have genetic tests, and you can have that test, and determine whether you actually have that risk factor. It looks like, because of the dynamics of clinical research and epidemiology in infectious disease, that this kind of application of genetic diagnostic technology may give us whole new insights into those small populations that had those rare events.

• 2:29:01Speaker 03

  You know, we know the big picture in COVID and the COVID vaccination, post vaccination syndromes of the high-risk individuals with obesity and elderly and basically people with a high inflammatory set point. But now we're getting down into some of the nuances. And I think that that's, you know, I talked about some of the dark sides of biotechnology, but there's some real, you know, bright sides that offer hope. And what will happen as that kind of starts to roll out is that manufacturers and academic

• 2:29:44Speaker 03

  surrogates and others are kind of not going to be able to continue to hide behind these narratives that they have promoted now for decades. Because the true true is going to come out. It is going to come out. Is it going to come out during this administration? No, to do long-term follow-up studies are going to take a decade. That's the unfortunate truth, and that we're going to have a lot of grief around that. How come you haven't already, fill in the blank?

• 2:30:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:30:14Speaker 03

  But it's going to happen. And that is another big plus of what's going on right now, kind of behind the scenes at HHS. Hopefully, they get a chance to still do it after the midterm and they don't get hogtied. But I'm optimistic that we're, these narratives that have been promoted, these false narratives, we're going to be able to break them through doing actual science, if we're allowed to do it. And this new technology is particularly with sequence analysis and identification of risk correlates.

• 2:30:56Speaker 03

  The intersection between sequence analysis and epidemiology is going to really open up new understandings about what's going on in human disease. I'm absolutely convinced. What we do about it is, that's a whole nother kettle of fish. This, I mean, we can do the science until the cows come home. The public policy part is wicked hard.

• 2:31:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But at least there's some...

• 2:31:21Joe Rogan?

  Positive developments.

• 2:31:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's, that's what I want to say is.

• 2:31:26Joe Rogan?

  Some bright light at the end.

• 2:31:27Speaker 03

  There, there is all this dark stuff.

• 2:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:29Speaker 03

  Uh, and, and we have to, we have to allow ourselves to see it. It's, you see it and you get the reaction like you did. I, I don't want to see that. That's too much. It's too overwhelming. It's too scary. But we look away at our own risk. And, um, and, and we have this tendency to say it's all dark.

• 2:31:55Speaker 03

  You know, that we have these individuals, I mentioned Yuval Harari.

• 2:32:01Speaker 03

  You know, believing that man is God now. We no longer need God. We have become gods. We have become as gods.

• 2:32:07Joe Rogan?

  Does he actually say that?

• 2:32:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:09Joe Rogan?

  Really? Well, but, but isn't he talking sort of metaphorically about our technological potential?

• 2:32:16Speaker 03

  I, I don't know. I don't think you really. I don't know how to, I don't know how to discern the meaning of.

• 2:32:20Joe Rogan?

  He's a very demonized guy.

• 2:32:21Speaker 03

  He, he says a lot of dark stuff. And, uh, I think, so, um, you, you probably read the book. Did you interview the author of, of, yeah, the Sapiens? Did you read the author of Dark Aeon?

• 2:32:34Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I've never read that either.

• 2:32:36Speaker 03

  So that's, so that's talking.

• 2:32:37Joe Rogan?

  What is Dark Aeon?

• 2:32:38Speaker 03

  This is talking more about kind of the Silicon Valley culture that's pushing transhumanism and how, how, um, integrally it's become, uh, involved in this space. I mean, what I, I don't have, I don't pal around with Elon and not to say he is or, or whomever you want to talk about in that space. That's those, I'm, that's not my pay grade. But my understanding and, and I read these things, maybe they're also, maybe that's also propaganda, that a lot of these people, um, of let's say the Bill Gates cast and the younger ones associated with that, uh, would, are, are advocates for a world in which they are

• 2:33:22Speaker 03

  able to upload their avatar consciousness in a digital space and live forever?

• 2:33:29Joe Rogan?

  Uh, that's Ray Kurzweil, right?

• 2:33:31Speaker 03

  That's, I, I mean, it sounds like you know more. I mean, you're the, you're the, uh, um, uh, UAP, uh, guy here, which by the way, is another fascinating domain that I'm learning more about, more about.

• 2:33:43Joe Rogan?

  It's bizarre. That's a rabbit hole you go down like, oh, this isn't empty. This is not an empty rabbit hole. There's a lot of money behind this and it seems like there's been a lot of black funding and.

• 2:33:55Speaker 03

  Business.

• 2:33:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:56Speaker 03

  Business.

• 2:33:56Joe Rogan?

  A lot of business. Defense contractors involved.

• 2:33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:33:59Joe Rogan?

  And it seems like there's some inventions that sort of emerged out of nowhere that supposedly are connected to back engineering programs.

• 2:34:07Speaker 03

  So I'm now of the belief that there exists a capability that transcends physics as we know it, let's say Einsteinian physics, and is more aligned with Hawking's physics, that we can't, we don't comprehend right now. And it has to do with extremely high-energy systems. And I, having, I mean, I've had some of these guys, because I'm now known

• 2:34:48Speaker 03

  worldwide as a nutcase, I guess, and conspiracy theorist, I've had them on my farm, you know, staying in our guesthouse and shooting the bull, and me trying to understand their world and what they're seeing and what they've experienced and observed and the information. And I'm of, there's a lot of different models for what the hell's going on here. And maybe it's all us, right? That's one model. It's all us with.

• 2:35:20Joe Rogan?

  Secret technology.

• 2:35:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. That's one model for the, what do they call it, Tic Tacs? I'm increasingly convinced by the logic that there is a physics beyond the physics that we know, that is the physics of extremely high-energy systems. And in high-energy systems, a lot of the rules about motion and transportation and matter and the ability to cross between matter states that is repeatedly observed.

• 2:36:00Speaker 03

  And reported by responsible people, military folks that have, you know, strong disincentives Right. For saying this stuff, and yet still they're saying, "That's what I saw." Okay? Transmedium devices that can fly and then go underwater as fast as they're flying. And, and- No ripples. Yeah. Yeah. So, I, one of the models of that is that this has to do with having some extremely high-energy source in a very small package. And, is that possible? We're now moving into a new fusion world. Right?

• 2:36:41Speaker 03

  We're talking about these micro-fusion reactors that are going to be powering our data centers all over the world, transforming the whole energy, right? I mean, there's this logic in crossing over into the economics Bitcoin or kind of space. There's this logic that it all comes down to energy. Energy is the one thing that fuels economic development and everything around us. And, I'm, I'm not a physicist, but I listen and learn, and, and it sounds to me like

• 2:37:21Speaker 03

  these microreactors and the technology that was involved strangely in this assassination. Remember that bizarre assassination in, in Boston that happened? There was two competing companies. Yes. Okay? Um, there's something- The MIT guy. Yeah, there's something going on there that's really transformational, and if it matures, remember Trump has invested in this in a big way, that had to do with him kind of leveraging Truth Social in a strange way. Remember?

• 2:37:56Speaker 03

  He, if, if we, if we emerge into a future within my lifetime, probably, of these micronukes as energy sources, decentralized.

• 2:38:15Speaker 03

  First driven by the tech bros because they want to have their data centers. But then suddenly we have, as that matures and the patents come off, we have the ability to put power generation in very small packages wherever we want in the world. Suddenly, the entire landscape of economic activity and the future of humanity is transformed like that. And that's just the beginning. If we push that technology, we may find ourselves in some space where we have the ability to produce extremely large amounts of energy in a very small package. And use that, you know, of course, it'll be weaponized.

• 2:39:00Speaker 03

  Use that for a variety of things. But I think the guys that are speculating about these phenomena being driven by the existence of almost point sources of unlimited energy functionally may make sense out of things that otherwise are really hard to wrap your head around.

• 2:39:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, we're in for a very interesting future, one way or another.

• 2:39:30Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, and it doesn't have to be dark and demonic.

• 2:39:35Joe Rogan?

  Hopefully not.

• 2:39:36Speaker 03

  If we let these bastards have their way.

• 2:39:38Joe Rogan?

  What is this, Jamie?

• 2:39:39Speaker 04

  Make a small correction. That video I showed you apparently isn't real, not a real company, made by a Berlin filmmaker in 2022, went viral. I found it in a New York Post article that kind of said it was real.

• 2:39:52Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:39:54Speaker 04

  But.

• 2:39:55Joe Rogan?

  But there are plans to do something.

• 2:39:56Speaker 04

  Well, I was gonna say, which is a little weirder. It says at the bottom, this is getting confused with a pregnancy robot that was announced in China in 2025. This, though, apparently also is not real also.

• 2:40:07Joe Rogan?

  The pregnancy robot is not real?

• 2:40:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, it was, they'd named a scientist that was working on it, not a real, it's not a real person.

• 2:40:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, but, but nonetheless, nonetheless.

• 2:40:18Joe Rogan?

  They are working on artificial wombs.

• 2:40:20Speaker 03

  Yes, that, that, well, are, I, I, we're, we're gonna come out, so, so see if you can find the, since you're so good at Googling, or whatever you're doing, see if you can find the images of this artificial womb, and I believe it's a lamb.

• 2:40:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, we've seen the lamb before, but I'm just saying that the, the people thing is.

• 2:40:42Joe Rogan?

  The factory thing with people.

• 2:40:43Speaker 03

  Oh, well, that was obviously AI.

• 2:40:44Speaker 04

  No, no, I'm just saying, but not that it wasn't AI, it wasn't even a real company that was doing it.

• 2:40:48Speaker 03

  It was synthetic images.

• 2:40:49Speaker 04

  I don't wanna give out fake news, that's all.

• 2:40:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, good, well, God forbid, we might get banned.

• 2:40:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, Robert, thank you so much for being here, I really appreciate it, and it was nice for you to come back, and, under less hostile terms in the world.

• 2:41:03Speaker 03

  Well, it wasn't hostile then, yeah, it was, the world was.

• 2:41:06Joe Rogan?

  No, but I think, the, I think your message was a lot more hostile, in it's, the way it was received, you know? Like, you were received in a hostile way, I don't think this one's gonna be hostile, I think, pretty much everything that you said, most people are aware of now, and then the other things that you're saying, they're not far-fetched at all, and I think there's a lot more people that are more open to receiving information like that now than ever before. And, some of it can be attributed to you.

• 2:41:37Speaker 03

  That's kind, um, let's say to the community.

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 2:41:42Speaker 03

  And, and of which I am a vehicle, have been at times, a lot of the stuff that I shared with you back then, was the consequence of a community that I was embedded in, of other physicians and scientists, many of whom were primary care practitioners, and I was, I was attending weekly meetings with these people, and I had frontline knowledge of what they were seeing and experiencing, and I had frontline knowledge of the physicians that I was collaborating with, at DITRA, of what they were experiencing, I was never managing COVID patients, except myself, but, I knew what others were experiencing, and

• 2:42:25Speaker 03

  you gave me an opportunity to get, to share their voice through me.

• 2:42:31Speaker 03

  And I thank you for that. It was a moment in time, and I think we did good. But by God, they came at us. It was wild.

• 2:42:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, thank you, sir. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you being here. It was a lot of fun. All right. Bye, everybody.

• 2:43:00Speaker 00

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