From the Archives: Huma Abedin’s Sliding Doors

Huma Abedin has spent her entire career in public service, from her beginnings as an intern in First Lady Hillary Clinton’s office, to her time as senior advisor to then-Senator Clinton, as deputy chief of staff to the Secretary of State, vice chair of Clinton's presidential campaign, and now, as Clinton’s chief of staff. Abedin’s recent memoir, “Both/And,” details this time in government, as well as her personal struggles behind the scenes. Huma Abedin sits down with Alec to discuss the personal impact of the 2016 election, the lessons she learned from her late father, and the sliding doors that have offered her different paths in life. Originally aired December 12, 2022 See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  What do you do when things get tough? You don't give up. You stand your ground. If you've been diagnosed with metastatic prostate cancer and have tried hormone therapy, ask your doctor about Pluvicto. Lutetium Lu 177 Vipitide Tetraxitan. Pluvicto is not chemotherapy. It's a different treatment that targets PSMA-positive cells. Pluvicto can be used before chemotherapy for some people. Pluvicto is a prescription treatment used to treat adults with prostate-specific membrane antigen-positive metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer, or PSMA-positive MCRPC, who have already been treated with hormone therapy and are considered appropriate to delay chemotherapy. Pluvicto involves contact with radioactivity, which may increase the risk for cancer and cause fetal harm.

• 1:47Speaker 03

  Drink plenty of fluids, urinate often, use contraception, and talk to your doctor about ways to reduce the risk of exposing others to radiation during and after treatment. Pluvicto can cause low levels of blood cell counts, kidney problems, and infertility. Tell your doctor if you have weakness, pale skin, shortness of breath, bleeding or bruising more easily, an infection or changes in urination. Side effects include decreased blood cell counts, tiredness, dry mouth, nausea, appetite loss, joint or back pain, and constipation. Ask your doctor about Pluvicto, because every day without cancer progression is a victory. Visit pluvicto.com to learn more.

• 2:21Alec Baldwin?

  This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing from iHeart Radio. The saying used to be, "Behind every great man is a great woman." But considering my guest today, perhaps that should read, "Behind every great woman is a great woman." Huma Abedin is someone who has spent her entire career in public service. Her work with Hillary Rodham Clinton began as a young aide in the first lady's office, then as a senior advisor to the senator, deputy chief of staff to the secretary of state, and now as her chief of staff.

• 3:04Alec Baldwin?

  Abedin's decades of collaboration with Clinton bring to mind Richard Nixon's farewell speech to his White House staff, who noted, quote, "This house has a great heart, and that heart comes from those who serve." Now Huma Abedin has written an intimate and revealing bestselling memoir on her life entitled, "Both And." The book covers her time working in government, as well as her personal struggles, including a very public divorce from former congressman Anthony Weiner. With such a substantial career in politics, I wanted to know if Abedin's upbringing is what set her on the path to where she is today.

• 3:45Speaker 05

  My mother is a sociologist. My father studied American civilization, which that's one of the reasons he ended up at Penn. They don't really teach it, or have that course in many universities now. Yeah, and then they're from two countries that were at war, and so they decided, they got asylum here and moved to Michigan. My dad taught at Western Michigan, my mom taught at Kalamazoo College.

• 4:05Alec Baldwin?

  How long were they living here before you were born, or had you been born?

• 4:08Speaker 05

  I was-

• 4:09Alec Baldwin?

  You were born here?

• 4:09Speaker 05

  I was born here, and when I was two, my dad- and we thought we were gonna stay here forever. I actually, I have this whole thing in my life about sliding doors. It's not maybe very healthy, but like, what if, what if, what if? And I've often thought about what my life would have been like if I had lived that Midwestern life, which I almost did. But when I was two, my dad was diagnosed with, basically, you know, terminal illness. It was renal failure, and his doctor said, you know, "You have five to 10 years and get your affairs in order."

• 4:38Alec Baldwin?

  How long did he live after the diagnosis?

• 4:40Speaker 05

  Well, it's amazing. That doctor was exactly right. His kidneys survived 10 years to the day they failed. And it's one of the first lines I wrote in my book. My dad was told he was dying.

• 4:49Alec Baldwin?

  I don't know if I ever want to see that doctor.

• 4:51Speaker 05

  It was ama- I mean ama- but the difference between 1977 in Kalamazoo, Michigan, and thankfully, nine years later, the possibility of getting on the transplant list became, you know, something real, which only happened because my mother was so tenacious. So he then went on dialysis. So he lived till I was 17.

• 5:09Alec Baldwin?

  And when did you go over there?

• 5:11Speaker 05

  So, two months after his diagnosis. My parents had an option to take a sabbatical, and their choice was either Italy or Saudi Arabia.

• 5:20Alec Baldwin?

  And why Saudi Arabia?

• 5:21Speaker 05

  Well, interestingly, they had always decide- they had always thought they would go to Italy. They thought it would be this great adventure. They'd go to Italy. And then my father gets this diagnosis, and he thought, you know, I want to teach my children about their culture, about their faith. We're a Muslim family. It seemed like more of an interesting- and it was, you know, just a year. So they said, why don't we do Saudi? It was definitely the hardest choice. My mother actually said, when, you know, my father said, let's go to Saudi, she's like, and I was two, she says, do they even have diapers in that country? And I think about how intrepid they were. They landed, they didn't speak the language. My mother all of a sudden had to veil herself.

• 5:55Alec Baldwin?

  Why do you think they chose- I mean, I was thinking of going Italy, Saudi Arabia, Italy.

• 5:59Speaker 05

  I think they decided that, you know, there they could- it was more of a challenge, and I think they liked that. My mother taught herself Arabic to teach her students. Then after a year, they actually decided to come back and then come back. And that was, you know, 44 years ago. They kept going back.

• 6:15Alec Baldwin?

  Did they teach you over there?

• 6:16Speaker 05

  My mother taught sociology. And my dad, you know, started very early on. He taught a few years, but very early on, he opened a foundation. And that's actually one of the reasons, even though the foundation was based in London, but it was a foundation that produced an academic journal that studied the condition of Muslims who lived as minorities around the world. And my dad's expertise was actually in Russia. Well, back then, it was the USSR, the Soviet Union. And it was his, you know, I often say this, you know, my father was really prescient about a lot of these issues. He basically said, look, if we don't figure out, as Muslims, how to live in the world with the rise of the West. We're gonna have problems. And sure enough, he predicted Bosnia, predicted so much of what we're now this, these convulsions that we have.

• 7:01Speaker 05

  And in part, his theory was, look, if you are a practicing Muslim, wherever you come from in the Arab world, or, you know, through the Muslim world, and you choose to live in the West, you cannot go there and live in your own little bubble. That's just not, you're not, you have to, if you're gonna go and live in France, you need to become French, and also you can-

• 7:20Alec Baldwin?

  Do as the Romans do.

• 7:21Speaker 05

  Exactly. And then, and that was the way he thought that we could succeed in this world, and I think he was right, seeing certainly what's happened the last 20 years.

• 7:28Alec Baldwin?

  So he was working specifically in what, during those 10 years when he was over there? Just a multitude of things?

• 7:34Speaker 05

  A multitude of things. A lot of his conversations were about interfaith dialogue. So we would, like, we spent one summer in Greece, living in a monastery at a conference about, you know, Islamic, Christian, Jewish, you know, dialogue. And we'd sit at the table, and, and people, a lot of Muslims, and certainly Arabs, and people who lived in our world, said, "Why, why do you do this? Why do you go and, you know, and they say, you know, they would tease him and say, "Why do you go have conversations, these provocative conversations where even the angels fear to tread? Why do you go have these, you know, very contentious..." And he says, "Because I wanna understand, and I wanna know more about these other faiths and beliefs, and, you know, kind of cis-political systems.

• 8:16Speaker 05

  And I don't have any doubt in my own beliefs, but I wanna learn more, and I think we probably have more in common than we realize."

• 8:23Alec Baldwin?

  Now, for you, other than when you were maybe were moving about, and you mentioned Greece for one, did you go to one school, or did you concentrate on just a handful of schools when you were there? Where'd you go to school, dy school?

• 8:34Speaker 05

  I went to an international school, based on a British curriculum, that my father and a few of the other professors at the university, because this was all brand-new, back in 1977, when we moved there. And you mentioned the oil money, sure, there was all of this new wealth, all these amazing-

• 8:50Alec Baldwin?

  They were just figuring out how much wealth.

• 8:52Speaker 05

  They were just figuring out how much wealth, and they were building universities and building hospitals, but they didn't have the talent. That's why so much of this talent was imported at the time. And my parents came in as part of that-

• 9:01Alec Baldwin?

  They went shopping.

• 9:02Speaker 05

  Imported talent, exactly right. And so they helped start this school. And so it was a British school, and it was international. It was actually one of the best things, Alec, that I think, to be exposed to so many different cultures and languages and people from all over the world. It made me comfortable everywhere. And I think that was a big part of it was, you know, being surrounded by people who weren't like me.

• 9:26Alec Baldwin?

  So when you, I mean, for Americans today, you know, Saudi Arabia is now a concentration of pilots who flew for 9/11. It's OPEC and manipulation of oil prices. It's Khashoggi. I'm talking about the contemporary American view of that country.

• 9:43Speaker 05

  Absolutely.

• 9:44Alec Baldwin?

  I mean, the United States certainly has a lot of blood on its hands for things that it's done. I'm not mentioning that to condemn the Saudis, but the United States is guilty of the exact same things during its history as well. But set aside that, back when you were there, what was your Saudi Arabia? What was your experience of the culture and the people? How did they strike you?

• 10:02Speaker 05

  You know, one of the very first things that really hit home when I moved to the United States in 1993, so I didn't come back, so I grew up in Saudi Arabia and I didn't live in the United States until I came to university in 1993. One of the things I missed immediately is this sense of community. And we call it, you know, in the Muslim world, we call it the ummah. And the ummah is the ever-present community, which is you're never alone. So I tell stories in the book about how, you know, you go to a party and you say, I like your shirt, and you know, the next thing you know, that shirt is sent to your house the next day. This notion of there's always, you know, a seat at the table for more people, there's always food to share. You're always in a very kind of secure environment. And that is something I kind of took for granted when I was growing up there.

• 10:46Speaker 05

  In fact, I tell the story about when my father finally got his transplant in 1996, and he had to leave immediately to go to the United States, to New York, for his transplant operation. And one of our very, very close Saudi friends called my mother and said, should we take the girls in? Me and my siblings, you know, I was, you know, nine, my sister was 11, my younger sister was four.

• 11:04Alec Baldwin?

  There's three of you.

• 11:05Speaker 05

  And my brother, so four of us total. And I, and my mother, and we were all already scared of all this change, my, so that our friends call and say, why don't the girls move in with us, you know, while you guys are in the midst of this transplant operation? And I remember, we were all so scared, and we said to my mom, no, no, no, we don't want to go. So on the phone, she makes up this excuse. And she says, oh, you know, the kids have their exams and their desks and their bookcases are here, so we're OK. The next morning, there's a knock on our door, and it's a moving company. And my mother's like, what are you doing here? And they're like, oh, we're here to, something about books and, you know, bookshelves and desks, we're moving. And sure enough, they moved the furniture into this family friend's home. We lived with them while my parents were in the United States.

• 11:43Alec Baldwin?

  How long?

• 11:43Speaker 05

  It was probably about six weeks, if I remember correctly, maybe, maybe two months. But this idea, again, of feeling

• 11:51Alec Baldwin?

  Oma.

• 11:52Speaker 05

  The oma.

• 11:53Alec Baldwin?

  So when you leave and you come to the United States, and if you had a British-centric or British fabric in the educational thing over there, but why did you come back to the US? Could you say, "I'm an American, I want to be educated"? Why didn't you go to England to go to school?

• 12:08Speaker 05

  Well, I had that choice, actually. My older brother and sister chose England, and I always wanted to come to the United States. You know, back when I was growing up in Saudi, everything that was sort of aspirational, everything that was considered the best, was American. You know, that, that is, you know, back then, America did seem like it, and it was

• 12:27Alec Baldwin?

  A paradise.

• 12:28Speaker 05

  The sole superpower in the world, absolutely felt like it was a paradise. And so, we'd come here for the summers, we would stock up on all the latest magazines, we would have these bootleg movies that we would take back, all the Tom Cruise movies, and, you know, like Beverly Hills, Night of the

• 12:44Alec Baldwin?

  That Tom Cruise, he's number one everywhere.

• 12:47Speaker 05

  He was certainly number one, you know, back then, and Ralph Macchio and the Karate Kid, I'm thinking of like, all of these, you know, and everything, and I, and I write about this, you know, my parents always raised us, said, "Look, you're American and you're Muslim", and in part because they came from two countries that were at war. So they didn't try to put the burden of that identity, that you have to choose whether you're Indian or Pakistani, or even Saudi, you know, given the fact that we lived there and, you know, felt a deep connection to it. "You're an American and you're a Muslim." And so, I remember, we would go all over the world, and that was one of the great beauties of having parents who were academics, they had summers off, was one of, also, the great advantages of being a university professor there, because my parents, in the early years,

• 13:28Speaker 05

  in fact, I don't think I ever shared this, they would get four first-class tickets every summer to go wherever. And so, we would, you know, take these tickets, and we would go to Europe and Asia, and in part because my father was sick, and he wanted to explore the world, he, and he didn't know how much time he had.

• 13:44Alec Baldwin?

  Sad, sad, there's benefits to having been so sick.

• 13:46Speaker 05

  But, I mean, these were secrets from us. We did not know how ill he was. You know, I tell this story about, you know, my father was barely 100 pounds, and to me, he was A superhero, you know, he was the greatest, strongest man on the planet. But he would, every spring, he would say, OK, where do you want to go this year? And we'd say, OK, let's do Asia. And he said, OK, we'd pull out a map and we'd have to call the airlines back then.

• 14:05Alec Baldwin?

  All six of you, wherever he dained.

• 14:08Speaker 05

  Wherever, you know, wherever, and we would.

• 14:10Alec Baldwin?

  Wherever you voted on.

• 14:11Speaker 05

  Wherever we voted on. And then we'd have to help plan it. And my mom did all the schlepping and all the lifting. And, you know, my father would be wheeled around in a wheelchair. But it was having, number one, it was a way for us to spend time together. And number two, it was a way to explore the world. And I remember, my mother tells the story of how we would land in the middle of nowhere, sometimes in Shannon, Ireland, you know, on our way to, you know, refuel somewhere. And I would get up and turn to my mother and say, is it America yet? And I have a whole chapter in my book. I mean, that is what, you know, the excitement, the feeling, the, you know, ice cream running down my hands, you know, when we visited our family in Elmhurst, Queens. It was paradise. It was heaven. You could go anywhere in the world and landing in JFK was the highlight.

• 14:51Alec Baldwin?

  So when you came to the US, when you returned to the US to go to college, you go and you go into politics, but you studied journalism as a major and poli sci as the minor. Did you, most people I know, my point is that they go to GW for one thing only. They don't go there to play the violin. They don't go there to get a scholarship for some sport they play. They go there because they've got politics in their blood. Was that you?

• 15:14Speaker 05

  No. I was, I went to GW to become Christian Ammanpour.

• 15:19Alec Baldwin?

  So journalism was the goal?

• 15:20Speaker 05

  Journalism was the goal.

• 15:21Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 15:21Speaker 05

  It was, and you know, I say this all the time now, when I, especially when I meet younger women, I was sitting on the floor of our house and watched this brand new thing in Saudi Arabia, and this is the, you know, Operation Desert Storm, Persian Gulf War, and turn on this brand new thing called CNN International. And I see this woman. And she was brilliant and she was fearless.

• 15:44Alec Baldwin?

  We all saw that woman, yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 05

  I mean, it was, I looked at her and she looked like me. She looked like she came from my part of the world. And she gave this amorphous, you know, I went from everything. I think when I was younger, you know, my dad, I think, always thought I was going to be a writer. He would, you know, say that to me, like, write, write, write. I was a voracious reader. I went through a period where I thought I wanted to be a lawyer. Really very dramatic. People would come to our house and I would say, do you want to listen to my new poem? And my siblings would roll their eyes. Like, I was a performer growing up. I had a lot of sort of confidence. I loved to perform. So I think I went through the period of like, I want to be an actor. I want to be a singer. I want to be out there. I wanted to be a ballerina.

• 16:19Alec Baldwin?

  Interesting how you ended up, though, but we're going to get there.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  I went through all these different phases, but then, and I must have been, no, I was 15. I saw her and I said, that's it. That is who I want to be. And I was singularly focused on being her. And that is why I applied to GW.

• 16:33Alec Baldwin?

  Got your degree in journalism.

• 16:35Speaker 05

  And I got my degree in journalism.

• 16:36Alec Baldwin?

  No graduate degree.

• 16:37Speaker 05

  I did not get a graduate. It was one of my regrets, but I did not get a graduate degree.

• 16:41Alec Baldwin?

  When you end, when you do the four years at GW and you get a degree in journalism, is journalism still the goal as you walk out the door?

• 16:46Speaker 05

  No, because my junior year, my friend Ronnie Hibbert came to me and said, listen, I've got this great internship at the White House. I'm interning for Mike McCurry, who was then the White House Press Secretary. And she actually said to me, she says, you know, when you watch anybody giving a, you know, a statement from that podium in the press room, our office is right behind. And I thought, oh, my God, how better to become Christiane Amanpour than being behind that wall. But, you know, chance, you know, fate, luck, whatever it was, I got accepted. So my friend Ronnie picks up the internship application for me. I think basically filled it out for me. I gave them my, you know, the essays that I used to apply to GW, sent it in, was accepted, but I wasn't put in

• 17:27Speaker 05

  the press office. I was put in the first lady's policy office.

• 17:32Alec Baldwin?

  Where did you first lay eyes on Hillary Clinton and you actually talked to her and shook her hand and met her?

• 17:38Speaker 05

  So she doesn't, she doesn't remember this. There's no reason she'd remember this. But the first time I laid eyes on her and shook her hand was the night of Bill Clinton's reelection, 1996. So I was a White House intern and they, you know, the DNC had made accommodations that if interns wanted to go on this charter plane at the last minute to Little Rock, Arkansas for election night. Talk about politics on steroids. I had, now, Alec, I wasn't registered to vote. I had never, I mean, I grew up in a country that was a monarchy, obviously. There was no, so I, you know, I went from zero to a thousand. And so I get on this plane with a bunch of interns. We had to pay, you know, write a check for, I think, $250 for our ticket.

• 18:19Speaker 05

  Land in Little Rock, we're wandering around outside and I'm just kind of just in awe. I look up and there's Wolf Blitzer. It's intoxicating. There's intoxicating. So you meet her. So I, you know. You pay your way to Little Rock. My plane went to Little Rock. The election's called for Bill Clinton and the energy and the electricity and they come out on stage and then they come down to work a rope line. And I was four or five people deep in. And I remember leaning forward through the crowd and shaking her hand. And she looked right at me and she said, "Thank you." And I, and I have to tell you, I can't even count the number of rope lines. I have walked with Hillary Clinton since then, but I remember that moment. I remember how it felt. I remember how important it felt. I remember that I felt like I made this connection. And so every time somebody would say to me, "I just want to say hello," or "I want to

• 19:04Speaker 05

  shake her hand," I got it because I remember that first moment. And for some people, it's a, it really is a once in a lifetime to meet a president or a first lady. It was really exciting.

• 19:17Alec Baldwin?

  Huma Abedin. If you enjoy conversations with accomplished women in politics, check out my episode with United States Congresswoman Katie Porter.

• 19:27Speaker 06

  You know, I think there is an attitude that, you know, sort of people are entitled to have Republican representation here. What they're entitled to is good representation, right? People who listen to them, people who fight for them, people who are not corrupt. And that can come in, you know, Democratic or Republican forms.

• 19:46Alec Baldwin?

  To hear more of my conversation with Katie Porter, go to hereisthething.org. After the break, Huma Abedin shares the tremendous impact of Hillary Clinton's 2016 election loss.

• 20:11Speaker 07

  Cash Flow Crunch? OnDeck's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Nile Rodgers, host of "Before the Moment," a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 21:03Speaker 08

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music, and I'm constantly asking questions. You know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played, or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know, there's every night you play a show, and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio, or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album, so... And you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  Experience "Before the Moment," a Lincoln original series, on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 21:40Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to "Here's the Thing." Huma Abedin is fiercely intelligent, warm, and impeccably credentialed. While surely anyone would be lucky to employ her, I was curious why she stayed in the Clinton camp for 26 years.

• 21:59Speaker 05

  You know, I'm getting emotional because I'm sitting at this table. She sat where you're sitting right now to do my first podcast interview after the book came out, and she's one of the people who really encouraged me to write my story. That wound, to some degree, does not go away. I think it is such a travesty and a loss for this country.

• 22:15Alec Baldwin?

  Tragedy.

• 22:16Speaker 05

  Tragedy. I agree with you that she was not president in 2016 and how different our country and the world would have been. And it is their loss. And to see how politics has descended into this sort of, really, a cult of personality. I was having this conversation with a friend the other day, and he was like, it's almost like you need to be a celebrity to even--

• 22:36Alec Baldwin?

  A rich celebrity.

• 22:37Speaker 05

  A rich celebrity to even, you know, run for office and take all that apart. You know, you actually have asked me something no one's ever asked me. I kind of fell into politics, you're right. I mean, I wanted to be a journalist, fell into politics, but why? It's because when I started being in the orbit of Bill and Hillary Clinton, forget who they were, that he was the most, you know, the leader of the free world, she was the most powerful woman in the world, for them, it was all about the mission and the service and how do I make-- I know it sounds cliche and it sounds cheesy, but there are people who get up every single day and say, "How do I make other people's lives better?" And I think of all the things that I have done. There's not a space I have been, a place I have been, there isn't a person I haven't met that I want to meet. And it still does not feel the way it feels when you're out on a campaign, when you're

• 23:22Speaker 05

  in government, and feel and know that you can make somebody's life better, that you can do something--

• 23:28Alec Baldwin?

  Doing the right thing.

• 23:29Speaker 05

  Doing the right thing, and that is something I learned from her, and to see her do it. Part of her thing, as you well know, she's never really thought it was about her, and I think a lot of politicians, and maybe even people in your line of work, they get into it, there's some degree of, whether it's narcissism or some degree of, you know, trying to prove one's own value, but she just, she just wants to do the work. And I always said, the day I got up and she wasn't doing something interesting, or I didn't want to go to work, or I didn't want to talk to her, I would quit. And, and the thing that is so insane to me is that after that election, which broke us, I mean, I write about it in 2016, and there are days that it comes back and, you know--

• 24:05Alec Baldwin?

  Hurts.

• 24:06Speaker 05

  It haunts me, it hurts, like it hurts, like physically hurts--

• 24:08Alec Baldwin?

  I was around her this summer. Liz Roberts, we went to that dinner--

• 24:11Speaker 05

  Right, of course.

• 24:12Alec Baldwin?

  This is my friend, for our listeners, who she has a dinner, and Bill is there. A couple summers ago, Bill is lecturing us on North Korea. And he's talking about, now, when the President of the United States is telling you what he wants you to know, like a little digest, a little synopsis about North Korean policy, you are, "I don't need to eat, forget about dinner," and Liz Robbins is behind his back, she's behind Bill's back going like this and cutting her throat like this, going, "You gotta tell him to stop, dinner is ready." And I'm looking at her like, "Uh-huh, yeah, I'm gonna tell Bill to stop talking about North Korea." And when you're with him, you get a civics lesson, you get a political history lesson. And we did with her the same thing, but she's just, I don't know, this inevitable thing in my business where she just, she's like Spencer Tracy.

• 24:57Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 24:57Alec Baldwin?

  She's just so decent.

• 24:59Speaker 05

  She has a few, radical empathy, number one. Number two, she has this, she has, I guess, she has this problem-solving gene, you know, I think so much of it. And, you know, people, and she's motivated really by not anything else, I don't think she cares about being rich and famous, I don't think she's ever cared about that. But I think knowing that her own mother, her own mother had a very, very difficult childhood, was basically abandoned by her parents. And, you know, her victory speech in 2016, she was gonna end with this story about, she tells a story about her mother who was put on a train cross-country. Her parents didn't want her and her little sister, so these two little girls, under 10, put on a train to go cross-country to move in with her, their grandparents, who also didn't really want them.

• 25:44Speaker 05

  And she said, you know, she imagined being on that train, sitting next to her mother, and saying, "It's gonna be okay, you're gonna be okay, and you're gonna grow up, and you're gonna have a daughter, and she will be the first woman President of the United States." And, um, in the end-

• 26:04Alec Baldwin?

  But she was.

• 26:05Speaker 05

  And she was, and she was.

• 26:07Alec Baldwin?

  You and I know that she was.

• 26:08Speaker 05

  And that's why I like to remind people, I also like to remind people, when people say, "Well, why couldn't you guys, why didn't you guys have the energy and sort of, why didn't you have all this energy behind you?" And I said, "I'd like to remind people that 3 million people more than her opponent voted for her, that she did have that energy and enthusiasm." And, you know, the forces, I do believe she won in 2016, and-

• 26:27Alec Baldwin?

  She did win in 2016. You know, one other thing that you and she have in common, you were both people who, your husbands let you down, that's my way of putting it, your husbands let you down. And in your case, you overcome that. You deal with that in your way. And you're very honest about it in the book. And you keep going. Crisis management has been a fundamental pillar of your career. You've worked with people who've been in crisis. And Hillary Clinton is someone who's been attacked in a way that is as ugly. And so with you professionally, with the Clintons for many years, in your personal life, a lot of crisis management for you.

• 27:08Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 27:09Alec Baldwin?

  What prepared you for that?

• 27:11Speaker 05

  I think my childhood. I think the way I was raised, the people who raised me, whether it was conscious or subconscious, I mean, this idea that I had a mother who is a superhero, you know, who my father was throwing up after his dialysis sessions, and she was in the bathroom cleaning him up and, you know, propping him up and putting him at the breakfast table. I mean, these were very, you know, living in Saudi Arabia, living in a different cultures, living, you know, sometimes in very frustrating moments. And always thinking, all right, tomorrow's going to be better, tomorrow's going to be better. And then, obviously, dealing with my father's death, that was hard. You know, I was in denial for a while. It took two years for me to actually say out loud to people, my father's dead. I was basically just, you know. So I think that, to some extent, there was crisis all around me, kind of growing up.

• 27:56Speaker 05

  And I figured out how to live and not only live through it, my mother tells me, move on. I mean, my mother says, my father's favorite memory from my childhood is when I would come out of school, I would skip out of school, and he would call me his gazelle. It's one of the reasons I share in the book this story about the first time I staff Hillary, and her speech is forgotten in the car. And she calls me on to stage, and I'm a kid, I'm barely 21, don't have the speech. And that was the moment, the moment where you basically either fall apart or say, I got it, I can fix this. And I fixed it in that moment, that was 26 years ago. And I have always figured it out. And I actually think I have figured out that I'm pretty good at it. And I don't know if that's like a marketable skill anywhere outside of politics, I'm working on that right now. But it's experience.

• 28:41Alec Baldwin?

  Whose idea was the book?

• 28:43Speaker 05

  The book was Anna Wintour's idea.

• 28:45Alec Baldwin?

  No.

• 28:46Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 28:46Alec Baldwin?

  Oh, my God.

• 28:47Speaker 05

  Yes, it was 10 days after the election. I didn't want to get out of bed. And she says, let's go to dinner. And we go to the theater and then go to dinner. And I was.

• 28:54Alec Baldwin?

  What show did you see?

• 28:55Speaker 05

  It was at The Public, and it was Cheryl Strayed's Tiny Beautiful Things. And I cried and cried and cried. And then we go to dinner. And she says, I know what you should do. You should write your story. It's a great story. And I said, no, it's not. I'm not going to do it. And the next day, I go to Hillary and tell Hillary. And I said, that's a brilliant idea. You should do it. It's a good story. I was really in denial. It was only when I went to lunch with a man getting advice on what to do next in my life and told him, oh, some people think I should write my book. And he was like, why would you do that? And I said, well, people have suggested it's a good story.

• 29:25Alec Baldwin?

  Without revealing the man, who obviously you're shielding. What does he do for a living? What career does he have?

• 29:29Speaker 05

  He's also a crisis management consultant to an extent. I mean, you know, he's in sort of the business of, you know, politics and communications. And he says, listen, I just don't think you could ever fully explain why Hillary lost. And I don't think anyone wants to read anymore about all that scandal.

• 29:45Alec Baldwin?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  And it was when he used that word scandal, I walked out of that restaurant and I was writing the book. It was somebody telling me the story was unworthy that made me write. And when I started writing, it just poured. It poured out of me. I loved, loved, loved the writing process. And, you know, and look, because you asked about Anthony and my ex-husband letting me down, which he did.

• 30:05Alec Baldwin?

  He was on this podcast.

• 30:06Speaker 05

  He was on this podcast. Yeah, that's right. He was. And, you know, I.

• 30:10Alec Baldwin?

  He was one of the first husband and wife couple that we've had.

• 30:13Speaker 05

  I should have brought him along. We're now talking about doing some interviews together because people cannot, are still in shock. And I get stopped in the street all the time saying, oh, I'm sure you rue the day that you met that man. In fact, somebody said that to me, you know, when I launched the paperback tour a couple of weeks ago, saying, I'm sure you rue the day you met that man. And I stopped this person and I said, you know, actually, this man gave me the greatest gift in my life. And that is my son.

• 30:38Alec Baldwin?

  A minion.

• 30:39Speaker 05

  And so, no. And I, and I think part of it is, people didn't understand what was happening. And, you know, I, only now, years later, we, we have a much greater appreciation for mental health and addiction. And, and I, you know, back then, only certain, like, I felt like our friends, kind of in the creative world and Hollywood, really understood what was happening. And, you know, but in politics, I mean, to have the first, what I argue was sort of Twitter sex scandal. It was unheard of back then. People didn't know what to do. And so, we were just...

• 31:07Alec Baldwin?

  But I think also with him, if I may just interject.

• 31:09Speaker 05

  Yeah, please.

• 31:10Alec Baldwin?

  So, I think with him, the thing is that we have so few people now, in my estimation, who are really, really special in politics. And your former husband was somebody who, people had a lot of belief in him.

• 31:20Speaker 05

  He was, you know, at one point, the chapter about Anthony was called Icarus, because he was, I mean, really was...

• 31:27Alec Baldwin?

  Smart guy.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  Really smart, really, and as you said, you know, he was unique, he was a unicorn in a way, that he was progressive, he was feisty, he was smart, he understood the policy. But more than that, he had solutions. And, you know, until he ran for mayor in 2013 and obviously lost, he'd never lost an election before, too, at that point. And so, to not then understand the behavior, which I did not, Alec, I'm being very honest, I did not, as somebody who grew up so disciplined and with such moderation.

• 31:55Alec Baldwin?

  You should have.

• 31:56Speaker 05

  You know, so, you know, I'd just knock off this behavior, and not understanding that he'd really fallen into. And, you know, his, all of this compulsiveness was really kind of triggered by Facebook and Twitter, that all had just started in the last couple of years, and then just fall. It really, it's, you know, talk about another tragedy.

• 32:13Alec Baldwin?

  I think he let down a lot of people, not just you.

• 32:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:16Alec Baldwin?

  He had people who really believed in him, because in the Democratic Party, we just don't have enough tough people.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 32:21Alec Baldwin?

  Now, you've been dealing with the political press your entire professional career. And some of them have been, you know, remarkably brutal and unfair. Who in your life, from the conservative media... When you dealt with them, did you respect and did you like that they covered her fairly?

• 32:38Speaker 05

  Wow, that is a question as sad as it to say that I don't know the answer to. I'm not sure I could give you a name off the top of my head. Isn't that horrible?

• 32:49Alec Baldwin?

  Coming from you, that's pretty damning.

• 32:50Speaker 05

  But we lived, I mean, but we lived in a different, you know, you've stumped me. I mean, honestly, I can't, I think we were always on guard. And to the point that you just made about fake news versus, you know, this notion of you're entitled to your, you know, your own opinion, but not your own facts, that's out the door now. Now it's sort of, you know, what is fact? What is fiction? And I struggle to come up with a single name of somebody who I thought was fair. Look, we had challenges with the New York Times where there were stories that were just filled with inaccuracies.

• 33:23Alec Baldwin?

  Huma Abedin. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing on the iHeart Radio app, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, Huma Abedin ponders whether a political candidacy is in her future.

• 33:54Speaker 09

  Cash flow crunch? OnDeck's Small Business Line of Credit gives your business immediate access to funds, up to $200,000, right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 34:25Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 34:43Speaker 10

  My small experience with the discrepancy in the business of music made me angry in the best way, and I wanted to, I wanted to finish. So I started really like leaning into my therapy, trying to get down to like what matters now. Somewhere, Miguelito felt like he didn't have a place to say how he felt, and music was the place that I went to, to say how I felt.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 35:17Alec Baldwin?

  I'm Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Huma Abedin was vice chair of Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign. After such an unexpected and painful loss, I was curious what she thought it would take for the United States to finally elect a female president.

• 35:38Speaker 05

  I think this is a generational thing. I mean, I'm raising a son, and I am raising my son not just to respect women, but not fear their power. And I think it's conscious and subconscious, this notion of when you close your eyes and you see somebody who's in charge, do you ever see it as a woman? No, you see it as a man. And how do we change that? And I think you and I are, you know, of a generation that that's, it's gonna be very hard to change, and it's proven in election over and over again. I mean, look at this battle Kathy Hochul is going through right now in New York. I mean, it is, I guarantee you, if she was not a woman, I'm not sure she would, it would be as neck and neck. I agree. But it's women, and it's, and this notion of ambition. You know, the idea that people always look at us whenever we are the victim, when we

• 36:21Speaker 05

  are in service of, I mean, Hillary was always most popular when, you know, during impeachment in her husband's administration, and then when she served Obama. And the minute she says, I'm in. Her approval numbers just go down significantly.

• 36:34Alec Baldwin?

  Why?

• 36:35Speaker 05

  It is the minute a woman is seen as being ambitious for power or being in charge, that all of a sudden, something subconsciously, and this is not just men, this is men and women, subconsciously flicks off in our heads saying, no, no, no, no, that can't happen.

• 36:50Alec Baldwin?

  Women who still support the patriarchy, I find that mesmerizing. Women who are enemies of candidacies like Hillary's and so forth.

• 36:58Speaker 05

  We would knock on doors early on the primary and women, you know, in Iowa would say, I'm in a caucus for Hillary, I'm in a caucus for Hillary, wink, wink. But, you know, making sure their husbands in here. And then sure enough, on caucus day, they just did what their husbands were doing or told them to do, whatever it is. It's just, it is, it is a generational thing that we have to change.

• 37:17Alec Baldwin?

  Are you gonna run?

• 37:20Speaker 05

  You know, part of-

• 37:21Alec Baldwin?

  Please don't tell me you haven't thought about it.

• 37:23Speaker 05

  Well, I haven't really.

• 37:25Alec Baldwin?

  People idolize you.

• 37:26Speaker 05

  That's not true.

• 37:28Alec Baldwin?

  Your demographic idolizes you.

• 37:30Speaker 05

  Well, I, so this is my year of saying yes. I'm doing all kinds of crazy things this year that I would have never said yes to two years ago.

• 37:37Alec Baldwin?

  For example?

• 37:38Speaker 05

  I mean, this, I'm doing interviews, I'm giving speeches, I'm, you know, I'm just exploring the world. I'm seeing things and meeting people. I'm just doing things I would have, in the olden days, I don't have time for this, I don't have time for social life, I don't have time, you know, it was always about work. And now I'm just, you know, finding more time to do all those things. So I hate when I say, okay, I'm definitely not running for office. I don't see a path, I don't see that I would, but I'm in this never say never, but I just, I don't, I don't see it. I'm also agnostic about-

• 38:09Alec Baldwin?

  But you've never seen the path, have you? The woman that wanted to be Christian Ammam, poor woman, working for Hillary Clinton for 26 years.

• 38:17Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 38:17Alec Baldwin?

  In the sliding doors biography of Huma Abedin, you've never seen the path.

• 38:22Speaker 05

  No.

• 38:23Alec Baldwin?

  You're like me, in the sense of my whole life has been, people go A, B, or C. And I'll sit there and go, which do I really want? A, B, or C? And the answer is D. Something that wasn't even on the table 18 months ago. That's the train I got on.

• 38:36Speaker 05

  Well, that's the cliff. You know, the book was originally, the prologue was originally called "The Cliff." I'm kind of standing on the precipice of that cliff and I chose to jump. And I always envisioned that it was going to be really bad. Jumping just meant hitting the ground and how much pain was that going to be?

• 38:51Alec Baldwin?

  But it's an opportunity as well.

• 38:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 38:54Alec Baldwin?

  And this is just my opinion. I mean, I'm not trying to give you advice here. I'm not trying to encourage you to run for office. But the point is, is that it's an opportunity, even if you lose. You don't go into it thinking it's a chance for you to put on the record what you believe about this country and this government.

• 39:07Speaker 05

  That's right.

• 39:08Alec Baldwin?

  So, two more quick things. One is, you're developing a television series based on your memoir. And you went ahead and I can't believe you wouldn't cast the unspeakably unattractive and untalented Frida Pinto to play you. I mean, what the hell are you thinking? Frida Pinto is going to play you in the TV show?

• 39:22Speaker 05

  I was stunned that she wanted to do it. You know, I'm a big admirer of hers, but more than that, I was, and I met

• 39:30Alec Baldwin?

  She's a wonderful actress.

• 39:30Speaker 05

  I met with a lot of people and I didn't know her. I'd never met her in all these years. But she got the book. She got the story. She got the character. And I think while I'm gratified, a lot of people have read the book. I think a lot more people will watch it on screen and if there is some sort of service or interest in the book. I mean, I'm just beyond thrilled that she's doing it and I can't wait for it to be.

• 39:49Alec Baldwin?

  You're so lucky. Oh, she's amazing.

• 39:50Speaker 05

  I'm so, I do feel very lucky.

• 39:51Alec Baldwin?

  She's a real movie star who can act. Now, if we're going to end, I want you to read that for us.

• 39:55Speaker 05

  Read my dad's letter.

• 39:56Alec Baldwin?

  This is a letter. Tell us about this letter. Where is this from?

• 39:58Speaker 05

  So, this is a note I found just buried in my dad's papers years after he died. And I thought it was a message, you know, from beyond. And I think it was just something, you know, he would scribble these notes down and he had a folder called Random Reflections. And this was from his Random Reflections folder. And it's titled "Thought for the Day." "As an American, a Muslim, and as a member of a fairly decent family, a commitment should be a commitment. Whatever the provocation, it should not influence you to act in an unbecoming manner. You have to be fair, honest, and direct. If you can't stand the heat, then as Truman said, get out of the kitchen.

• 40:41Speaker 05

  But your exit should be graceful, decent, and above board. Let others do what they will. You are responsible, in the first instance, to yourself, your principles and values, and ultimately, to God, Yahweh, Allah, your loving Father."

• 41:02Speaker 05

  And I feel as though this was a note that he left for us to remind us what's important about how to walk through this earth.

• 41:10Alec Baldwin?

  And you've lived that.

• 41:11Speaker 05

  I've tried to.

• 41:12Alec Baldwin?

  You've lived that. And I want you to know, see, the thing about you is I'm going to end with the blessing and the curse, the sweet and the sour. And that is, you are a very special and gifted person. But of course, with that comes tremendous burdens as well and tremendous demands. It's a blessing and a curse. You have a lot of burdens on you. This is choking me up here.

• 41:33Speaker 05

  This is so kind. Thank you.

• 41:35Alec Baldwin?

  And you have, and with it comes a burden, a burden. But we hope we're going to see more of this woman that's in this book. I want to see, I can't wait to see what she's going to do.

• 41:44Speaker 05

  Well, from your lips to God's ears, I just, I'm so, I'm excited, thrilled, terrified, all those things, but I'm continuing my year of saying yes.

• 41:58Alec Baldwin?

  Huma Abedin. This episode was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. We're produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeese, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio.

• 42:39Speaker 11

  Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The Odd Couple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 43:17Speaker 12

  With ChatGPT, you can do more than get answers. You can get things done. Whether you're leading a big project, planning an elaborate trip, or trying to balance work and life, ChatGPT can help. Give it a goal, plus things like files, notes, or project plans, develop a trip itinerary with daily updates, or create a prioritized schedule, so you can spend less energy sorting out the details and more on bringing your biggest ideas to life. Get started at chatgpt.com.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.