216: Why You Should Do The Best You Can and Never Give Up. The Memory Endures, by Reg Curtis

0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:24 - The Memory Endures, by Reg Curtis--Analysis. 3:15:35 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 3:29:16 - How to stay on THE PATH. 3:48:07 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 216 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:09Jocko Willink?

  In attack, most daring; in defense, most cunning; in endurance, most steadfast.

• 0:19Jocko Willink?

  They performed a feat of arms which will be remembered and recounted as long as the virtues of courage and resolution have the power to move the hearts of men.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  And that right there is Winston Churchill speaking in honor of the British First Airborne Division at Arnhem. And he was actually making that statement on September 22nd, 1944, in which the battle was not actually even over yet.

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  And we did cover that fateful battle on Podcast 94 from the book called Men at Arnhem by Jeffrey Powell.

• 1:11Jocko Willink?

  And it's just, it's a, it's an incredible book and an account of the British Airborne Division in that battle where they lost almost 75% of its strength. And from that point on was for all practical purposes, purposes out of the war.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  So who were these men that, that made this stand? We saw one when we covered Jeffrey Powell's book, but obviously there were thousands more.

• 1:50Jocko Willink?

  Each one a hero. And also each one a, a human being. And I recently got a book in the mail that someone sent me. And the book was written by one such man, one such human being. The book is called The Memory Endures. And it was written by a man named Reg Curtis.

• 2:18Jocko Willink?

  So let's go to this book and meet and learn and honor a hero of a human being.

• 2:31Jocko Willink?

  Here we go.

• 2:33Jocko Willink?

  Chapter one's called Prelude to War. As a youth, I carried out milk. I carried out a milk round in the early morning and a newspaper round in the evening, earning four shillings a week, which helped towards the cost of the special clothing I needed as a choir boy at St. Augustine's Church near Grove Park Railway Station.

• 2:55Jocko Willink?

  When I left school in 1934 at the age of 14, I got a job at Elliot Brothers, an electrical and mechanical engineers firm in Lewisham.

• 3:06Jocko Willink?

  I cycled five miles to and from work Monday to Saturday and learnt quickly, under the watchful eye of the charge hand, learning how to operate a milling machine, center lathe, hydraulic press, and finally, working as a capstan setter operator.

• 3:23Jocko Willink?

  I had to just read that part because, you know, you always hear about the old man who had to go five miles to work and five mile home uphill both ways. Yeah. There you go. There you go. Reg Curtis was doing it.

• 3:38Jocko Willink?

  After three years, I was beginning to set, and by the way, he's like 14 years old at this time. Just a kind of FYI. So after three years, I was beginning to settle in for a long-term job, when a series of small strikes put the damper on my enthusiasm.

• 3:56Jocko Willink?

  The persistent industrial action prompted my decision to join the army, where such strikes were not tolerated. You kind of get the impression, this is our guy, right? He's, they're having strikes, whatever. He says, where, where, where can I go? Where that's not going to happen. Oh, I know. The army.

• 4:16Jocko Willink?

  My father had been in the Royal Army Service Corps and my grandfather was the chairman of the Royal British Legion, so the army seemed natural enough in my family. I was encouraged by my Uncle Fred, himself a regimental sergeant major. I chose the foot guards because after a short term of service, I would be acceptable to the City of London Police. In those days, you had to be at least five and, five feet, 10 and a half inches tall to be a policeman. I was already 6'1" and still growing. I presented myself to the Guards Recruiting Office in London and enlisted with the First or Grenadier Regiment of the Foot Guards.

• 4:53Jocko Willink?

  And flowing forward a little bit, there was, there was one Corporal Tucker. So now he's, you know, going through the boot camp scenario. There was one Corporal Tucker, my squad instructor, who took great delight in marching us on to the frozen parade ground with extra zest, then put us on a charge if we slipped up. So you not only received a sore rump, but also got extra parade as punishment. Another approach was to march us toward a large puddle and then give the order to mark time. "Come on, knees higher," he would shout from a safe distance, scrutinizing each man in turn and looking for any signs of cracking.

• 5:34Jocko Willink?

  We were just numbers at Catterham, though to this day, I say it did me no harm as it instilled a self-discipline that has served me well through life. That's what you're gonna get. And, you know, you and I were talking earlier about basically normal face. Basically, look, I'm not gonna show that this is not fun. I'm not gonna show. And you were saying that you learn if you can, if you say, look, no factor, right? No factor. I gotta do this hard thing, no factor. Not, hey, I gotta do this hard thing so I'm gonna get mentally all fired up. No, no, just no factor. And you learn over time that saying no factor,

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  keeping it in your head, actually, you get better at it. And all of a sudden, hard things, you just go, all right, I'm just gonna do it. I'm just gonna attack it. That's one of the things that this type of military training does. And even he's saying, look, the stuff that this guy's gonna go through is a thousand times harder than doing mark time march on the parade ground for an hour. Thousands of times harder, infinitely harder. But there's a little lesson that he learned. And plus, he's British, right? And the Brits with the stiff upper lip, that's, that's like a whole culture. At least it used to be. Cause the culture's changed a lot in Britain, but this warrior culture of, hey, they're literally England.

• 7:00Jocko Willink?

  If you think about it, the stiff upper lip, which is, hey, we're just gonna go do, that's, that's the no factor. Culture of, hey, we got something to do. Cool. We're gonna go do it. Watch this. Well, this is England. What, what do we, what do you got? We got something hard for us? Cool. No factor. Stiff upper lip. Move forward.

• 7:19Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. He, so he gets, like, one of his first jobs is, is sort of guarding the, the royal family. And so he does some of that and then uh, moves on to kind of the, the regular army. Going back to look soon enough, I left the glamour of Windsor and the comfort of Victoria barracks behind and was sent to Pirbright in Surrey, where every guardsman goes for field work craft and firing on the open range. It was my duty to be able to handle and fire a gun in preparation to protect king and country in an emergency. But trust my luck to have fallen, have fallen foul of bad weather.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  It was not really my cup of tea to prostrate myself on a wet and windstrapped firing range with a sergeant breathing down my neck, whispering words of encouragement. An added supply of rainwater running over me in torrents from his ground sheet cape. This is, this is not the way you would hear a US Marine describe being on the range in a rainy day. You know, that's just such a, a British way of explaining this. And then he continues on, it must have done some good as I made first class shot, though for what purpose I was not yet sure. So guess what? This is post World War One. I think, I want to say this is 1939 when he enlisted. So there's, or maybe thirty, maybe in thirty-eight. Actually, I think it's thirty-seven.

• 8:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. 1937, he joined the army. So there's, you know, World War One was, what, 20 years in the past? That was the war to end all wars. Sure, there's a guy in Germany that might be getting a little uppity, but he's saying, hey, look, I'm, I know I gotta learn how to use this gun, but not really sure what I need to know how to do this for.

• 9:04Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, fast forward a little bit. In early in 1939, I was transferred to the home of the British Army at Aldershot in Hampshire.

• 9:13Jocko Willink?

  "I'll never forget the atmosphere of the night of the tattoo," which tattoo is like a word for a parade, basically. "When our battalion marched on, dressed in navy blue trousers with red piping down the out seam, outside out seam of each trouser leg, long sleeved white waiter-type jackets with brass buttons, and the guard's peaked cap with red band around the crown. Carried out without a word of command, our drill display lasted for 20 minutes, the finale being the only time a command was given. The battalion will advance in review order by the entire, by the center, quick march."

• 9:49Jocko Willink?

  450 men moved as one. And the reason how I did that, once again, when you just think about human beings, right? Psychologically, in that moment, look, you're a cog in the wheel. That's all you are. You're a pawn on the chessboard. That's all you are. But, and he, and he says it, like that feeling that you get of being a part of something that's literally bigger than you are. Hey, I'm just, I'm just a guy out here in a uniform, but there's 450 of us moving as one. And there's some part of human instinct that likes to be a part of that tribe.

• 10:35Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, "In August, some mysterious goings-on began. Unusual apparatus in the form of digging equipment, both powered and hand-operated, appeared, along with wheelbarrows and mountains of little sacks, which turned out to be sandbags. Lories loaded, the lorries loaded with sand would dump their contents at various points, and instead of the usual drill parades and kit inspections, we found ourselves filling these bags with sand and building barriers. I thought it must be some sort of giant exercise, and had no idea that it was in preparation for a real enemy. Being confined to the barracks with its own shops and theater, we didn't mix with the public, so knew very little about matters of, of national importance. Indeed, in those days, a serviceman was not allowed to discuss politics, and we would

• 11:20Jocko Willink?

  be put on charge if caught attending a political meeting."

• 11:25Jocko Willink?

  So these guys are completely isolated and I'm thinking about even when I joined the Navy and we go on a ship. We had no idea what's going on. There's no internet yet. And so we had no idea what was going on in the outside world and even even living on base. I mean, you at least when even when I joined, you had cable news, right? You knew the CNN was on. And you're watching CNN and you're knowing what's going on in the world. There's no CNN. There's no TV. There's nothing. So these guys are completely isolated. They're living, they're going, all the stores are going to are on base. The theater is on base. So they're just living on base. Paying no mind to what's going on overseas.

• 12:01Speaker 01

  What is put on charge?

• 12:03Jocko Willink?

  Means get in trouble.

• 12:04Speaker 01

  Just in general?

• 12:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, just in general, like, oh, he got in trouble.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, okay. So it's not like a, you know, because it's varying levels of.

• 12:12Jocko Willink?

  Yep, and it covers and he, I'm glad you brought that up because it's, he uses it throughout kind of the book because there's, you get, can get put on charge for all kinds of stuff.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:21Jocko Willink?

  And so it's just a general term that means being in trouble, maybe written up.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Written up, yeah.

• 12:27Jocko Willink?

  Maybe sent to the brig for a little time, whatever. But you know, you got put on charge.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, no court martial, nothing like this, but.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  Could be.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  You keep it up.

• 12:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, if you, well, it could be too. You like, if you did something really bad, you just got, okay, you know, he's gonna get put on charge for that.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I got you.

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  Is any level of trouble is what I perceived it is. Maybe a Brit military person will let us know if I'm wrong.

• 12:50Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on.

• 12:53Jocko Willink?

  On the 3rd of September, war was declared with Germany and I realized what all the sandbagging was for. Within days, my battalion was mobilized, reservists were called up and along with thousands of other troops. Two weeks later, two weeks later, we were in France.

• 13:13Jocko Willink?

  I think I was quite unperturbed at the possibility of getting killed. After all, I was a soldier, trained to kill. So why should I have any qualms? You know what's nuts about this? And I mean, putting into perspective, World War I, which was now 20 years in hindsight, was so insanely savage. And yet, this guy's still, Reg is like, yeah, you know what? Cool. I'm not worried about getting killed. I'm a soldier.

• 13:44Jocko Willink?

  And you think about the casualties in World War I had to be had you had to be. It shows you.

• 13:54Jocko Willink?

  It shows you how quickly we can forget, right? What war is because if you witnessed a day on the battlefield in World War I, there's no way you'd want to do any of that ever again.

• 14:07Jocko Willink?

  But whatever you're 20 years old, you're a crack shot with that rifle. Time to go get some continuing on in the forward positions. We oh yeah. And by the way, now I'm just jumping past. Hey, they get there. And by the way, like I said, they get to France two weeks later. This isn't like, okay, we're doing a prolonged preparation. No, we're declaring war on the third. And in September, the third of September, we're declaring war and then in September, two weeks later, you're on the ground in France, ready to get some.

• 14:39Jocko Willink?

  In the forward positions. So now they they start moving forward from France. In the forward positions, we took over deserted village called Tromborn about six miles from the German border. As it was snowing, our fighting patrol decided to make use of sheets to create. So they're in these they're in these areas that are pretty much abandoned. And so they're going into houses and finding stuff. As it was snowing, our fighting patrol decided to make use of sheets to create sets of camouflage gear, white suits, gloves, over boots, hats and coverings for our rifles, hunting around. We've I found a sewing machine, thinking that we might as well do things the easy way. As a fighting patrol, we didn't fire a shot. It was more a matter of listening and night reconnaissance in our white outfits, carrying only rifles and our and limited other gear. We traveled more comfortably than we had previously,

• 15:24Jocko Willink?

  which I skipped over the part where they're basically doing long, long movements to get into positions. On one night reconnaissance, we became overconfident.

• 15:35Jocko Willink?

  Don't let that happen. And one of our lads knocked up against the enemy wire. It was a still bright, moonlit night. We were in no man's land, just 75 feet from the forward German positions. Their talking stopped abruptly. As luck would have it, we were crawling, so we froze, hugging the ground for an hour without moving. On another occasion, we were on our way back to base. When, from, and by the way, on that one, they, they make it out. On another occasion, we were on our way back to base, when from the direction of a bend in the road, 50 yards away, we saw a group of figures. We were about two miles from our lines and knew that no other patrols were out, so these men must be the enemy. Our patrol leader gave the signal to lie still.

• 16:15Jocko Willink?

  We were straddled each side of the road in semi-open ground, but fortunately, the night was not too bright. The group passed by, 10 men in all spaced six to eight feet apart. They were well armed, but wore no white suits. Keeping them in view and moving only our eyes, we lay unnoticed. If we had been spotted, they would have had the advantage because of their automatic weapons and also the fact that they, as they passed down our center, we could not have fired on them for fear of hitting our own men. Never separate your forces. Which is hard when you're walking down a road, because when you're walking down a road, you're gonna be in what's called a staggered file, which means you got guys on either side of the road, right? Which generally, we're trying to stay off the roads anyways, but sometimes,

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  that road is the smartest place to move. You're gonna make a bunch of noise moving through the brush and you can get on that road and move really quietly, so it's something that can happen. But then when they see the enemy, they all get off the road. What's the quickest way to get off the road? It's on the side that you're on. And what does that mean? You're on both sides of the road. Now, when the enemy walks in between you and you start shooting at the enemy, you're actually shooting at each other.

• 17:23Jocko Willink?

  So you have to be cognizant of that, which these guys were.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, when I came into contact with two Germans, and this is another thing about this book. First of all, this book is not very long, but the other thing that's crazy and British and no factor in Stefan Lip is he'll describe the most insane things that were factually crazy as like in three sentences of what and just really matter of fact, you know, so although there are times where he definitely adds some color. But that's the way he is, just, just kind of matter of fact, very British about the whole thing. When I came into contact with the two Germans for the first time myself, I gave them five rounds of rapid fire

• 18:10Jocko Willink?

  at a range of 50 yards as they edged towards me under the cover of garden walls and fencing. They were my first shots in anger. I didn't see the two Germans anymore, so maybe they were lucky shots. Guardsmen Bateman and Elms doubled past and shouted for me to come on and we continued into open country, making our way over to a bridge and halting roughly after roughly a thousand yards where we took up defensive positions. Air activity was increasingly tremendous. Messerschmitt 109s were machine gunning at low level and had strafed our troops coming over the bridge only a few minutes after I crossed. There's these, these, talking about these and I, I don't know if I just never really thought about it this much detail.

• 18:56Jocko Willink?

  But he talks about these, you know, the enemy aircraft coming in at low level and strafing them all the time. And if you've ever seen a Messerschmitt, they're just really badass looking aircraft. And a lot of the German aircraft, they just were, I mean, all the aircraft back then, right? I mean, you got Spitfires, you got Corsairs, you got Mustangs, you got that P38, you got awesome looking aircraft. That, and if you can imagine this too, at that time, those were the most technologically advanced things, right? So they didn't look, they didn't look old, right? They looked like a X-wing fighter from Star Wars, right?

• 19:36Jocko Willink?

  That's what you were seeing. You were seeing this magical machine that was just, and now this thing is pointing at you at, at an altitude of like 300 or 400 feet and just dumping machine gun rounds at you. And can you imagine the noise that they make with those big giant engines? I mean, Yeah, and so he talks about that a lot in these books and uh, that's kind of the first encounter that he brings it up. The other thing that scares me about it is it's sort of random, you know, it's almost like mortar fire. Cause the aircraft's gonna come down. If it's pointed two degrees in that direction, you're fine. If it points two degrees in your direction, you're dead.

• 20:17Jocko Willink?

  And the rounds are hitting, you know, at a spacing of six feet or whatever, when they get to the ground. So if you're in between those two six feet, you're totally fine. Or you get hit in the face or in the head and you're dead. So there's this element of chance going on as well. Which I never like. I never liked that element of chance.

• 20:40Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, leaving the area and traveling mainly on foot, encountering few enemy on the ground, but experiencing continuous shelling and bombing from the air, we came to a stop by the river Ascot. Near the city of Tornai, six miles from the French border. Here, we went into a counterattack. During which a very well-liked platoon commander, Lieutenant, the Duke of Northumberland, was killed. Lance Corporal Harry Nichols and Guardsman Nash were ordered to flush out some bothersome machine gun nests 600 yards from our position. That's British, right? You're gonna describe machine gun nests as bothersome.

• 21:21Jocko Willink?

  The section I was in gave covering fire. What, what, what is that all about? Yeah, that's called cover and move. Fundamental. To our left, they picked their way with caution, Nichols and a light machine gun under each arm. Nichols with a light machine gun under each arm. I didn't see them anymore, but they must have completed the mission because there were, because the enemy fire ceased after a while. Lance Corporal Nichols was posted missing, presumed killed, but later reported as being alive in enemy hands. He was awarded the Victoria Cross for this action. In the semi-built up area on the river, the Germans afforded very good target practice for me.

• 21:58Jocko Willink?

  I found that I just could not miss, but we were all getting weary through lack of sleep and proper food. No one can live off scraps or from scavenging for long without feeling the worst for it. And enemy numbers were increasing tenfold, or so it seemed. Continuing on, we came to another stop. This was the last time I took part in a coordinated attack with the 3rd Battalion Grenadier Guards. We went into a bayonet charge.

• 22:26Jocko Willink?

  I say again, we went into a bayonet charge at Cortecure.

• 22:32Jocko Willink?

  Setting off, I felt very scared and all sorts of things went through my mind like, "What the hell am I doing here?" "Oh yes, I joined the army to become a policeman. What a laugh." The muck was flying fast, bullets whining and splattering, and I crouched lower to dodge them. On I went with the rest, my 16-inch Enfield bayonet blade fixed and protruding at the ready. Ready? Ready for what? The only thing I'd ever stuck with a bayonet was a sack dummy.

• 23:05Jocko Willink?

  Then I saw them in the swirling smoke, human beings, not sacks, real Germans. Blimey, I trudged on, wrenching my ankle in a pothole, on and on, until the order rang out, "Charge, charge." I began to double now with my bayonet thrust at full on guard. Those figures growing bigger and bigger until they were just a few yards away among the din and yells of pain. There were dead bodies from both sides littering my approach. I was a foot from the two Germans when suddenly, they both dropped their rifles and reached very high, chattering something about comrade.

• 23:46Jocko Willink?

  I was so bloody amazed and relieved that I said, "Come on then, I'll take you prisoner." Which is just that paragraph for me to think through, because I'm thinking when I see those Germans, "You know what I'm doing? I'm shooting them, right? I'm not going to continue with the bayonet charge, right? I'm not expecting to take these guys prisoner."

• 24:10Jocko Willink?

  Get some.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  "My battalion was now badly cut up," and he uses the term "cut up," meaning shot up, meaning wounded, injured, he uses that throughout the book, "with numbers well below effective fighting power, and we were ordered to attach ourselves to any unit and make our way." To Dunkirk, though no reason was given, and here I was stuck with two German prisoners. The journey was nerve wracking with hordes of refugees jamming the roads and making military transport movement almost impossible. Lories, guns, and French H39 Hotchkiss tanks were often seen abandoned in ditches rendered immobile, but clearly not by enemy action. What was going on? Were we throwing in the towel?

• 24:53Jocko Willink?

  So he's seen all these abandoned vehicles and they're being destroyed by friendly forces, only because we don't want the enemy to get a hold of our tanks. And he's trying to figure out what's going on. And obviously, anyone that knows anything about history knows that they're heading for Dunkirk to leave.

• 25:09Jocko Willink?

  The route was an absolute shambles with military and civilian gear constantly getting estranged. Rumors were plentiful now, such as the story that Leopold III of Belgium and his army were capitulating. Towns all over France were falling into enemy hands. French General Giraud had been taken prisoner. To pile on the agony, the Germans did not let up on their bombing or machine gunning one bit, and their slaughter of refugees was unnecessary and sickening to see. We did what we could in the way of tending to civilian wounded, using their own clothing or bedding for bandages, while their dead were either left covered, left or covered with something to hide their torn bodies and agonized faces.

• 25:51Jocko Willink?

  Even cattle grazing in the fields had not escaped the blitzkrieg and lay bloated through lack of milking or blown apart by shellfire. The carnage spread for a good two miles. After seeing those poor, wretched civilians so cut up, my occasional wounded soldier, the occasional wounded soldier did not seem quite so bad. My two German prisoners appeared to be as disgusted by all of this as I was. And you're going to see throughout this book, the impression that he gets of the Germans. You could see that there's definitely a wide range of, of Germans that they encounter.

• 26:29Jocko Willink?

  Obviously, some completely hostile, but there's some that clearly are not, are not totally engaged in the Nazi attitude. And there's, it's very interesting to hear as he interacts with people throughout it.

• 26:46Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, we reached the outskirts of Dunkirk to find a mass buildup of French and British soldiers with transport tanks and artillery pieces jamming the roads like a London rush hour.

• 26:57Jocko Willink?

  The next five days were a mixture of hell, hunger, and fatigue. And I think it was only thanks to the fatigue that I overcame the hell and the hunger.

• 27:07Jocko Willink?

  I know it was five days because I put a nick in my rifle butt each morning when roused by this visiting stukas and messerschmitts. So they're getting bombed and they're getting machine gunned every morning.

• 27:18Jocko Willink?

  During daylight, the appointed beach master, a British officer mustered officers and NCOs from all regiments and briefed them to organize parties of men to tend to wounded, bury the dead, and scavenge for ammunition and food. I found it most distasteful removing tins of bully beef and biscuit remains from corpses, but at least I still had my life. The beach was littered with abandoned lorries and trucks, as well as army staff cars with wheels missing and doors hanging off, as I wandered around going about my task among these mutilated forms that were once carefree young men. I remember thinking that I must be dreaming.

• 27:57Jocko Willink?

  I was brought back to reality sharply by the appearance of two enemy fighter planes which proceeded to distribute even more death and panic. I dived over a corpse and slithered down a sand dune, the staring eyes of the corpse saying to me, "Get your head down and arse up."

• 28:20Jocko Willink?

  After five days on the beaches, it was a relief to find that it was finally my turn to get into the snake-like line of troops readying for departure. As I drew closer to the vast mass of a ship, a minesweeper, heaving in the mucky-looking swell, I could see its multi-barreled AK-AK gun porting skyward in readiness for any stuka fighters or fighter attack, the operator seeming oblivious to our presence. One was scanning the sky with his binoculars, the water by now was well and truly up to my neck, and I still had 50 feet to go. I clung to the rope with both hands and pushed on. The man behind gave me a shove. The water kept lapping over my nose and into my eyes, gulping, choking, and spitting out the endless mouthfuls of oily foul-tasting salt water.

• 29:05Jocko Willink?

  I was now quite submerged. With a last mighty effort, I lunged in the direction of the boat, still grasping at that rope. I could not have been, it could not have been more than a minute that I was underwater, but it felt like a lifetime clinging on tight to the rope with my left hand. With my right, I groped for the rope mesh hanging down the side of the ship. And with great exultation, found and grabbed it. I managed to pull myself up, up, up and up, the ship rocking and heaving with each vibration of the exploding bombs which were arriving much too close for my liking. So finally, he's on board the ship and they're getting bombed and strafed. Flopping down exhausted, I was soon asleep, though inevitably, we had a visit, visit from a messerschmitt.

• 29:49Jocko Willink?

  And this woke me violently as its bullets danced along the ship's deck, causing large pieces of wood splinters to spew over everyone. These administers as much damage as the bullets to some unfortunate recipients. I dozed off again and slept like a log until we docked in England. So ended my participation with more than 300,000 others in Operation Dynamo, better known as the history, better known to history as the Miracle of Dunkirk. So that's the way you kick things off with your, with your war. And I forget the time that passed and I know that the time that seemed to pass was very quick, the way I just read it skipping a bunch of stuff. But it was like 200 days that he was on the ground.

• 30:34Jocko Willink?

  This was no, hey, I was there for a week. No, they were there moving forward, fighting, drawing back, going attack, back and forth this whole time. And, and you know, that could be, you know, just that experience right there could be a whole book in, unto itself, right? That's how, that's how low key Reg Curtis is. You know, he was literally extracted off of Dunkirk after this entire campaign falls apart and he covers it in 20 pages, not even 20 pages. Cause he's getting warmed up.

• 31:12Jocko Willink?

  So he gets home. And. He says, there followed two weeks of leave that I enjoyed more than ever before. The sheer ecstasy of white sheets and pint after pint of beautiful beer. And the days of roughing it in France seem soon seemed very long ago. Yeah, Ken, you gotta, you gotta think how hard. It's like when you're going through basic SEAL training. What they do is they, during hell week, you've been awake for like two or three days. And then they go, hey, they come up with this big story and they tell you that, oh, you're gonna, we've, we've kept you. We were too hard on you guys. We have, the, the commanding officer just told us, we gotta, we gotta put you guys to sleep for eight hours.

• 31:56Jocko Willink?

  So go get warm, dry clothes on and we'll come back to you guys and we'll wake you up in eight hours. And you're, of course you believe it. I mean, back in the day, we believed because we didn't know any better. No one gave us any heads up. There was no. In for intel network providing information. There wasn't, there wasn't like the movies about the stuff, right? So we just thought, oh, wow, that seems kinda crazy, but okay. And then you get all dressed in nice, warm clothes and you're all dry and you go, you go literally get in your bed. And then as soon as you fall asleep, like 20 minutes goes by and they're in there with machine guns and bull horns and they're waking you up. So when you think about that's, that's tiny, right? That's a tiny, tiny little thing when you compare it to what's going on here.

• 32:37Jocko Willink?

  This guy goes to France starving, like wounded and dead everywhere, fear. Gets back to England, goes on leave for two weeks. White sheets, you know, beer, it's all good. And then. You know, it's you, you know what's gonna happen. You're gonna go back.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  When, when you, when they did that to you, uh. In was that hell week?

• 33:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 33:04Speaker 01

  They did? Okay, so before there was before there was like a a network, right? How you say the and you said you believed it like when they say, oh, we put you all right. Was there a part of your mind like or as far as part of the reason why you believed it is because like they are pushing you pretty hard at any point where you like, hey, I wonder if they're pushing us too hard. Yeah.

• 33:25Jocko Willink?

  Actually, I thought what you were gonna say is was there part of my mind and this would have been I would have said yes. Was there part of my mind was like, this is too good to be true. This is happening. That's what you know that I would say the bigger part of my mind was saying that, but I kind of was like, oh, I seems like, hey, cool. Like they're they're telling us this.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Right. But no, no, before that, though, like at any point where they like, I know hell or were you or whoever being like, I know how we supposed to be hard, but like this is kind of excessive like.

• 33:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I had no data on which to judge it.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:55Jocko Willink?

  You knew it was gonna be hard. You know, I was talking to a guy that quit buds. And I said, you know, like, why did you quit? And he said, cuz it sucked. And I said, well, didn't you know that it was gonna suck when you went there? I mean, that's where you're going like we all know it sucks. Go watch it a video, you know, and it's like, it's gonna be, it's gonna suck. It's gonna be cold. It's gonna be wet. It's gonna be miserable.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  It just feels like that. Yeah, it's gonna suck like that part, but then you know how like it goes sometimes in your brain anyway. It'll go beyond sucked into like whether it be dangerous.

• 34:27Jocko Willink?

  I never felt like that. No, I was always like, oh, this is the this is just the training, right?

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Okay, then, yeah, then that makes sense that you could go to when they say, oh, yeah, here's eight hours sleep or whatever. You could go to, well, this might be too good to be true.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I'm saying what you're saying is you're sure that there's guys that were like, yeah, that's right.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 34:44Jocko Willink?

  Of course, it's way too hard. And then those are the guys that when they get when the trick comes, they get trapped, bro. They're devastated. Yeah, they're devastated mentally devastated. That's why it's one of the best things. Well, not a lot. There's a lot of people that don't get out of that bed, right? They don't get out of that bed cuz as soon as you get out, you're going straight to the surf zone. And people don't like that, man. I mean, you can hear seals talk about it. Guys can get scarred from liking the ocean for years, man, for years.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 35:13Jocko Willink?

  They they don't want to go in the water. They they don't want to do it cuz cuz cuz they just they use it as an implement of torture.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:22Jocko Willink?

  Me, I didn't care, you know, like I surfed and it was all good, you know, let's go get some.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Sort of how?

• 35:31Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book.

• 35:34Jocko Willink?

  So he's home. He's taking a little time off. He goes back and starts doing a kind of local. Let's call it like local guard type activities. And then we get this, "In August, I received a telegram telling me that my home in South London had been hit by a sea mine. And I was given compassionate leave to return. What the hell was a sea mine doing inland? It must be a mistake, I thought. However, apparently there was such a thing which came down attached to a parachute." So that's what the Nazis were doing.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  And so he gets little leave to go and check things out. And so he goes and here we go. This is him finding his home. "Upon reaching Grove Park, as I turned into Fairfield Road, I immediately saw that our house had received a direct hit. There was now just a heap of debris where once it stood half a dozen houses and dozens more were badly damaged. The local ARP warden told me that not one person had been killed because everyone had taken to their Anderson air raid shelters. My parents were both okay and staying with some friends a mile up the road. It was a shock to see our home destroyed, but after all I had seen in France, I think I must have become immune to any real emotions."

• 36:46Jocko Willink?

  And then this happens in October. "As a result of a directive sent out by our Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, we received a letter which was read out to us by the Regimental Sergeant Major. Volunteers, he shouted, for a new type of fighting soldier are required."

• 37:05Jocko Willink?

  He glanced over the top of the paper, beady eyes registering some amusement. "Soldiers," he carried on, "to be trained as commandos and parachutists. Now, I know that you would not wish to desert the regiment, but anyone wishing to volunteer? One pace forward, march."

• 37:26Jocko Willink?

  Glaring as he did so, he took three stealthy steps towards us. Well, you all chicken then? There was not a titter, nor even a hesitant shuffle. Meaning everyone was just standing fast. I thought back to the days in France. I thought of the carnage of the British prisoners of war. The Warwick regiment herded into a field just outside Dunkirk and machine gunned to death by the Waffen SS. I thought of my home being blown to smithereens and how the Germans were blocking my ambition to become a London policeman. I took a pace forward before it was too late.

• 38:11Jocko Willink?

  And some time passes as they try and get everything organized and then it continues on. I was to join number two commando, later renamed the 11th Special Air Service Battalion, and still later, the 1st Parachute Battalion. In Britain at that time, there was little or no knowledge of the techniques of parachuting. So, everything had to be thought out very carefully. There were no special types of parachutes for jumping from aircraft and no suitable aircraft. The whole lot had to be devised, developed, and tested all too often with fatal casualties or severe injuries.

• 38:44Jocko Willink?

  Just learning how to conduct parachute operations from scratch.

• 38:52Jocko Willink?

  So, they start their training and the training is is really, really hard as, as you can imagine. Here we go, now we settled down to some real soldiering and I actually begin to enjoy the tests thrust upon us. I didn't realize at first that we were being used as human guinea pigs, trying out new methods of roughing it and of delivering a soldier to the place of battle. For everyone, for everyone, it was a taste test of strength involving guts, sheer cunning, and a determination to win. Some conditions were abominable, but my conscience told me that this was a challenge I must rise to.

• 39:34Jocko Willink?

  And again, this is when you got someone that's learning through repetition, how to take pain and suffering and do it in a way that is no factor.

• 39:53Jocko Willink?

  So, jumping forward here through some training that they go through and all the training is just, it's like guinea pigs, right? The training is just guinea pigs, they're just doing crazy things to these guys. And then they do their first parachute jump, gets done with that, within the next week, our seven jumps had been achieved and we could not wait to sew those blue wings on the right arm of the battle dress blouse. One laddie even brought his sewing kit along with him and sat down in the corner of the hangar to get them on before anyone else. It was odd to see a man walking around in Withenshaw in Manchester with their wings, winged shoulders slightly forward of the rest of their bodies.

• 40:37Jocko Willink?

  Civilians and other non-paras soldiers were asking, "Who are these blokes with the wings? Some sort of secret unit?" That's just a little bit of unit pride, right? This is why dichotomy of leadership, when Leif and Seth disobeyed, big Jaco started wearing patches, this is one of those things that, you know, I was thinking in the back of my head, like the, if you're gonna, if that makes you hold your chest out a little bit higher and you get that unit pride, I'm gonna let it slide. Continuing on, "We were training both as parachutists and also for the specialized work of the commando."

• 41:20Jocko Willink?

  Which meant that a lot of extra work had to be put in to achieve the very best end result. Above all, above all, it was emphasized, it was emphatically stressed that we should never accept defeat, even when up against overwhelming odds, and we were taught to persevere to the end and to be able to endure great, if not impossible, fatigue. Sound familiar? That's what we do. That's what we do in the military.

• 41:59Jocko Willink?

  Taught to persevere to the end. And I guess that so much of that is. So much of that is what the way you know how you're taught to do that? Cause you do it. Cause when you go to like SEAL training or whatever, there's no class that says, okay, when you get tired, think about this. No class that says that. No class that says, when you feel like you want to quit, then you should think about this, or you should say this, no. If if you're, if that's where your head is at, and you want to quit, there's no, they don't teach you anything to stop it. What what you learn? The way you're taught is by, oh, I'm going to get through this. That's what's going to happen. I'm going to get through this.

• 42:43Jocko Willink?

  Of course, we have to learn a little bit about.

• 42:47Jocko Willink?

  Hand to hand combat. We practiced not only the use of the knife, but also how to best avoid one when used against us. Chinese experts taught us judo and unarmed combat with a rifle and fixed bayonet. We would be flung at you, or sorry, a rifle with fixed bayonet would be flung at you by the instructor who would yell, come on, lunge at me.

• 43:10Jocko Willink?

  I lunged hesitatingly for the first time. Come on, Longshanks, lunge. You won't get anywhere near me. Right, mate, I thought you asked for it, and I took a really good lunge, but this man was an old hand. Like lightning, he parried my blow, and before I knew it, I was flat on my back minus the rifle. It was the same with the fighting knife. And quite a few of us nursed cuts at the end of a day's training. Those knives were razor sharp, just going real world.

• 43:40Jocko Willink?

  In April of nineteen forty one, we were visited by Winston Churchill. Accompanied by Sir Arthur Barrett and Major General Sir Hastings Ismay. And he goes, he actually go, I'm not going to tell the whole story, but there's a one point where. Where where Reg has a little very short conversation with with Winston Churchill. And basically, he he he's Reg is the receiver on a. This on like a hand to hand combat display. And he ends up getting thrown, you know, like a hip toss, I'm imagining. And and when he's done and he's kind of getting up off the ground. And and Winston Churchill looks at him and says, uh, did you really try lad?

• 44:24Jocko Willink?

  And Reg looks at him and says, "What do you bloody think, sir?"

• 44:31Jocko Willink?

  And then he said Winston Churchill pursed his lips, gave a big grin and waddled off looking delighted. So, that's pretty awesome. Interaction with Winston Churchill, who by the way, we haven't, we haven't even, we haven't even started to get into the Winston Churchill scene here on the podcast. But you know it's coming. You know it's coming. And, and that'll be, I'm sure, many podcasts. And this is a little glimpse into the future. Continuing on bypassing usual military procedure, various unorthodox methods and the use of small arms explosives were adopted and official eyes were shut so long as the end end result was achieved.

• 45:16Jocko Willink?

  One such stunt was to withdraw the safety pin from a hand grenade, release the arm, which we call the spoon, release the arm, which in turn would fire the four second fuse in the primed grenade, making it really live. Hold it for a second and then throw it quickly. The object being to make sure the enemy would have no time to throw it back. Anyone refusing this dangerous venture would be subject to a variety of flowery names. Luckily, we had no casualties as a result. And what makes that scary is, so a grenade has a four second fuse. When you pull, you're holding something that, what do they call it? The arm. It actually fits into the web of your hand, this, this, this piece of like light aluminum.

• 45:58Jocko Willink?

  And you, when you put it in the web of your hand and then you hold the grenade, that thing is stuck in place. Now you, then you, next thing you do is you pull the pin.

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  Cause when the pin's in there, that arm doesn't go anywhere because it's spring loaded. As soon as you pull the pin, that, there's tension on the spring that's ready to make that spoon or arm fly off. And that's what arms it to blow up in four seconds. The problem is, is that the fuses aren't perfect. So depending on the fuse that you get, could be, could be three seconds, could be six seconds, could be four seconds like it's supposed to be. Is there a possibility it's two seconds? Yes, there is. So when you cook, we call it cooking it off. So when you cook off that, that grenade, there's a possibility that it goes off. But.

• 46:50Jocko Willink?

  If you don't cook it off at all and you throw it, the enemy could throw it back at you, especially if it's four seconds. I mean, what are their choices? They can either jump on it, they can dive away, or they can grab it and throw it back. If they think you haven't cooked it back, well, best thing to do is get it out of there.

• 47:03Jocko Willink?

  Remember T. Fred Harvey? He was getting in grenade tossing fights with the Japanese.

• 47:13Jocko Willink?

  So,

• 47:15Jocko Willink?

  as this training is going on, also, we have to remember, there's the mental fortitude part, there's the tactical training, but we can't ever forget just physically being hard. To keep on top form, we had plenty of physical training, cross-country runs, compass marches, and night exercises. Discipline was self-imposed, and any need to impose it by a superior was frowned upon. Yes. That's what we want. We don't want to have to impose discipline. Wrote about it in Leadership Strategy and Tactics. If you have to impose discipline, something's wrong. And you know what's wrong? Your leadership is wrong. Because if you're leading correctly, the troops will put discipline on themselves. They will acquire self-discipline,

• 48:00Jocko Willink?

  because they understand why it's important.

• 48:03Jocko Willink?

  Psychological and physical resistance were driven to the utmost until men could take their limit and even more. But it was never enough. We were marched, counter-marched, and marched again in fair weather and in foul. Live ammunition fired at close range actually helped. I found myself so preoccupied with making sure I did not get hit that I became oblivious to fatigue and plodded on. At the end of a day's training, I would stretch out on the hangar floor absolutely shagged. On passing, Sergeant Sid Oxley might prod me and say something like, "Not bad lad, not bad. Do better tomorrow, eh?"

• 48:42Jocko Willink?

  "Get stuffed" was the usual quiet reply as I slipped a well-earned cigarette between my lips and drew hard.

• 48:51Jocko Willink?

  So, there's a pretty good chunk of this training in there and again, all this training was, they just created this. They just created that. This was new. We're like, we're making up. And props, one thing. When I look at the course of my entire life, there's like a couple of moments in time where things made an impression on me. And one of the things that made an impression on me as a little kid was I had these toy soldiers. I had a lot of toy soldiers. But, the British commandos from World War II, they had little ladders. They had little grappling hooks. They had boats.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  And they had beanies. Right? You know what I'm talking about? And when you're a little, wait, you don't know what a beanie is?

• 49:40Speaker 01

  I know what a beanie is, yes.

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay, you know when you see a stereotypical, like, let's say a robber in a movie? And they're sneaking around and they're wearing a black beanie? I think that all stems from the British commandos.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Oh, for real?

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  So, for me, when I saw, like, those little soldiers that I had, with black beanies and rubber rafts that looked like Zodiacs, they also had, I had a little kayak for them too.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  Interesting, yeah.

• 50:08Jocko Willink?

  And I think, seeing those things, I was always drawn to the maritime component of special operations.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 50:16Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I want to be the closest, what's the closest thing I can be to a British commando? I see these guys with boats and the weird thing is, I mean,

• 50:25Jocko Willink?

  that's, that's not what these guys were doing. In fact, and I didn't say this, Reg Curtis didn't know how to swim. That's why he was so scared and he didn't, he doesn't say it until later in the book. That's why he was so scared of Dunkirk. That's why he's talking about how he's underwater. There's nothing he can do about it. He's hanging on the rope because he doesn't know how to swim and he's weighted down.

• 50:45Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, the uh, the British Commandos, which I'm sure broke off from the parachute guys, but that was kind of a, a major, a major influence on a whatever fi- six-year-old kid.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't remember any. Well, then again, I, I guess I wasn't into the toy soldiers element.

• 51:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you were just getting like the regular big green toy soldiers from like the, the grocery store, right?

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Little army men.

• 51:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, army men, for sure. I had.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  NGI Joe.

• 51:12Jocko Willink?

  I graduated from plain green army men to legit little soldiers that came from different units. And I had all these different units and I knew what kind of gear they had with them. I had the Africa Corps, right? The Na- the Nazi Africa Corps. And again, the ones that stand out were the ones that had like looked a little bit different. The Africa Corps guys were tan instead of green. The British Commandos were green. I had, I had paratroopers.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Oh wait, they were the same little army men, just more of the event.

• 51:46Jocko Willink?

  They were smaller than the regular army men.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Smaller, huh?

• 51:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, they were small. They were, I think, I think their nomenclature is one thirty-second. I think, they were really small. They were, you know, half an inch tall, maybe, maybe a three-quarters of an inch tall. Each, each individual soldier.

• 52:01Speaker 01

  That bottom platform thing.

• 52:02Jocko Willink?

  Had a little bottom platform.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Huh. Dang.

• 52:05Jocko Willink?

  And I would set up battle scenes, you know, out in the yard and play by play the way things were unfolding.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could, you probably went deep though. I'm like, you know, on the, the regular army men set, man, set? The guy who's crawling, you know, the low crawl guy?

• 52:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  He, like, he would be flying sometimes in my.

• 52:24Jocko Willink?

  Oh, in your scenarios?

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, cuz he, he could be in that flying position.

• 52:29Jocko Willink?

  Well, I had the, I had the model planes too. I also had a teacher named Mr. McGurk in high school. And he had little army, he had little planes all throughout his room, uh, the classroom, hanging. You know, little, little model planes. So I had model planes too. Cuz it was all trying to make, make this battle scenario. And the weird thing is, the weird thing is about this stuff is, like, okay, if my son, let's face it, if my son has army soldiers, we kind of expect that just to be normal, right? Like, hey, of course. I mean, by the time that kid was born, he had more army soldiers than he knew what to do with.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:06Jocko Willink?

  But there's some instinctual thing. Even you, you were like back in Kauai.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 53:11Jocko Willink?

  Right? There's no, I mean, your mom wasn't saying, hey, I really want you to be interested in military stuff.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  No.

• 53:18Jocko Willink?

  Right? And yet you had Green Army soldiers.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:20Jocko Willink?

  And even though some of them could fly, which was a little bit unrealistic, some of them were still low crawling, right?

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:26Jocko Willink?

  Some of them were engaging in battle against other soldiers.

• 53:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:29Jocko Willink?

  So you have an instinct for war.

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Yes, big time.

• 53:33Jocko Willink?

  And I think most, ju- just like I talked earlier about the instinct for like, hey, I'm part of something bigger than me.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:41Jocko Willink?

  Which is a beautiful thing, if you think about it, right? That's a beautiful thing. Like, I am part of this group that I'm, I'm subordinate to this group.

• 53:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:51Jocko Willink?

  That's a powerful thing. And it has to be countered correctly, because you don't want to be someone that gets brainwashed and joins a cult, right?

• 53:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:59Jocko Willink?

  The, the Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh cult.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:04Jocko Willink?

  Right? You don't want to be that person.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  No, no, not really. That, yeah, that is weird. Now that you mention that, like, you had, what do you call it, an instinct for war?

• 54:12Jocko Willink?

  Instinct for war.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  Like, I, I think, because it's, it's so common. Like, consider like G.I. Joe's. Okay, I'll ta- I'll say the scenario. So we, um, we had a, we, my dad built our house and, and he, well, he was one of the people who built our house. So, when we're digging the, um, the cesspool, it's like,

• 54:30Jocko Willink?

  Septic tank?

• 54:31Speaker 01

  Septic tank, I guess. It's like a huge hole. The hole is super deep. Anyway, they put the cap on it.

• 54:36Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Um, this big concrete cap on it, right? And then they fill it in and then, but as it remains, it's still a big hole, like the size of a jacuzzi.

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  About that size. But it's just a dirt hole. It's weird. It's like a, literally like a dug-in jacuzzi in dirt. So.

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  I'm not sure what this is, but go on.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just the way it, it sorted itself out.

• 54:57Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Um, so.

• 54:59Jocko Willink?

  It sounds like a foxhole.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, we call it that, yeah. But, um, for, and then it, it rained, um, quiet rains pretty much every day, so.

• 55:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Not necessarily storming, but enough to put a cool little shallow puddle in the bottom of that and mud. So we're in a muddy terrain scenario, G I Joe wise. So we got hills, we got the top of the hill, we got the valleys, the, you know, the, the water scenario at the bottom. And oh yeah, it was like battles going on the whole time. We'd light stuff on fire.

• 55:32Jocko Willink?

  And your dad was no military experience. Your mom was no military experience. Your neighbors?

• 55:38Speaker 01

  My grandfather was at D-Day, but I did not know this.

• 55:41Jocko Willink?

  Canadian D-Day. That's right. Salute.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  But I had no idea at this point, obviously. But nonetheless, we're still doing it. G I Joes, good guys versus bad guys, killing. Like, you know how you could take a part of the G I Joes? Like, you could blow them out with firecrackers and then bury them and like do all this stuff?

• 55:59Jocko Willink?

  You're having ceremonies and stuff, bro. You were going deep.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Big time.

• 56:04Jocko Willink?

  Catching the whole dramatic thing.

• 56:06Speaker 01

  And it's not like someone like told me to do that.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And how much, how much did you see? How many war movies had you seen on TV? Do you even remember?

• 56:16Speaker 01

  I don't remember, but you know, you could, I mean, this is what, like eighties, we'll say, like nineteen eighty.

• 56:22Jocko Willink?

  So maybe there's some A-Team going on?

• 56:24Speaker 01

  A-Team and I watched it, not like religiously or nothing, but.

• 56:28Jocko Willink?

  So it's just, we're talking the instinct. That's the bottom line.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did. I mean, MASH was on. I don't think I'd ever watched MASH. That's more of a comedy though. That's not like a, but.

• 56:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it is kind of a comedy. If you, if you watch that show, it's actually, in many ways, there's some pretty heavy episodes of MASH, actually. Cause I remember watching it when I was a kid. And there's definitely, I remember watching that movie going, or watching that show sometimes and everyone's expecting to laugh, but then sometimes it would be super heavy because they would occasionally inject war into MASH, right? And yeah, so, yeah, so I think there's just an instinct that people can have at some level. And I think obviously, just like instinct of being something bigger than yourself, that's an instinct that people can have at different levels, right? Not everyone's a ten in, hey,

• 57:20Jocko Willink?

  I want to be part of a group that's bigger than me. Not everyone, not everyone is. In fact, I, I would say maybe you don't even want to be a ten because then you're just looking for a cult to join, right? Next thing you know, you're buying a guy Rolls Royces.

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  Which is what you gotta watch out for, right? So we're not looking to do that. Same thing with the warlike instinct, right? There's some people that are pretty high up on that. I believe I was pretty, pretty high up on that because I don't remember wanting to do other things. Right? So like, when I thought about my future as a child, the thought was be a soldier. Like, that's what I remember. Be a commando. That's what I remember. So it's, you know, it's something that, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other, you know, like a fatherly instinct, right? Or a motherly instinct, or, uh, here's another interesting one. Some people like to travel, right? Some people want to move around a lot. Some people want to stay home. There's like different levels of instincts that people have. Some people want to settle down and hold what you got.

• 58:18Jocko Willink?

  Some people don't want to do that at all. So people have various instincts. So I would say that what they did in this training is hone the instincts that people did have and get rid of people that didn't have enough of the instinct for war. And, you know, once again, talking about SEAL training, they're not really teaching you anything. They're just getting rid of people that don't have the right instinct.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, can't do that.

• 58:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's what they're really doing. They're not teaching you anything. You learn only because you learn from your experience, but it's not an active teaching protocol.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. So do you, what do you think? Do you think that that's like good? Like, is that, and of course, I'm not gonna say, is it the best way? Cause who knows the best way? But is that kind of the best way to do it? Cause it kind of seems like it could be the best way to do it.

• 59:09Jocko Willink?

  No, it's definitely, it's definitely, you're not gonna get any, well, you're gonna minimize the amount of stray voltage. Don't you kind of want to work with someone that has a higher instinct for winning?

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:22Jocko Willink?

  Than someone that's gotta be coaxed and trained?

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's what it seems like.

• 59:26Jocko Willink?

  So that's why it seems like it's a pretty good thing to me.

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's almost like.

• 59:29Jocko Willink?

  Who would you rather have on your football team? Someone that, and think about this, think about you're the, who's the person that brings people onto the team? It's not the coach, but like the GM? I don't know. So let's say you're in control of a football team and you're gonna take this thing as far as you can. This is your only job. Do you want the guy that you get, that you have to train a bunch to get him to be able to run a, a, a fast four, a fast 40? Or do you want a guy that comes out of the gate and he's kind of already there, right? This is the no brainer, of course. Now, there are. outliers that I actually want this guy that was slow, but he's such a hard worker and a grinder that he's going to excel anyways. Like I want that guy. And guess what? SEAL training does that. You don't, if you're a gazelle and you're a really great athlete,

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  it doesn't test you as much as the guy that's a grinder.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:17Jocko Willink?

  But the guy that's a really great athlete has a little bit more value out of the gate than the guy that's a grinder. Once you show up at the team though, you want the guy that's a grinder more than you want the guy that's a good athlete.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. So almost like it's all sort of in that's

• 1:00:31Jocko Willink?

  not a guaranteed every time because there's some guys that were freaking great athletes and they were just incredible. So don't, don't take that one wrong, but necessarily a guy that's a great athlete versus a guy that is just has, can gut through it.

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:46Jocko Willink?

  Probably I would lean towards the guy that can gut through it because he has a level of grit. You're not, you don't face a pull-up bar out in the battlefield, right?

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  You're not, you don't, you know, it's not there.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, and that makes sense. I mean, it's all kind of in the same bucket really, but where like, these are just attributes, right? So how, how does Leif put it? He'll say, um, Bud's is just a screening process to weed out people who we don't think have the characteristics to be successful on the battlefield, which is a very eloquent way of putting it eloquent. So those characteristics aren't necessarily who can do the most pull-ups. It's not that because look, if you're doing like, there's a minimum though, right? Obviously like, do you have to do a certain amount?

• 1:01:28Jocko Willink?

  There is the minimum is so minimum to like get to Bud's, the minimum is so minimum, it should be disqualifying if you can actually only do that many. I'm not kidding. The minimum pull-ups to go to Bud's is something like 10.

• 1:01:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:01:39Jocko Willink?

  It's tiny. It's ridiculous. It's embarrassing.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So just like how you said, it's like, okay, we have, we have a minimum and that's sort of it. So who cares if you can do 50? Who cares? Really? We care about other stuff.

• 1:01:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Well, there's a well-rounded component, right? And, and that's what makes, that's the thing that makes SEAL training hard is you can't just be a fast runner. You can't just be a fast swimmer. You can't just be strong upper body. You can't just be comfortable in the water.

• 1:02:12Jocko Willink?

  You can't just be durable. You gotta be all those things. And what's hard is they're contrary to each other, right? Because being able to run 14 miles is one type of person that's gonna be really good at that. Being able to get through the obstacle course is another person that has a lot of upper body strength. This person has a lot of endurance, this person have, and then you add in, hey, you need to be able to pick up your buddy and sprint with them over the berm. That's explosiveness. So we want this really kind of middle of the road on a bunch of different things. Well-rounded, as opposed to someone that's just really good at one particular thing.

• 1:02:53Jocko Willink?

  And there's all kinds of people that show up that are great athletes in one category, and it doesn't work for them.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the attribute of all the attributes, the attribute about the guy who can gut through stuff sort of lifts up all those extra attributes if they're not that high. So let's say that's the main one, then yes, yes, you want the guy who that comes naturally to, rather than the guy who it might, their teaching may falter later.

• 1:03:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I want that to be part of you.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Makes sense.

• 1:03:25Jocko Willink?

  Part of you, and man, what a good quality to have. That's the thing, that's the thing. People, look, everyone gets a certain amount of talent. You can decide to work hard. You can decide to work hard. Now, now, there are people that say that work ethic is a talent, right? I, I get that concept, and I think the reason it appears to be that way is because you get people that work so hard that you think, oh, that must be a talent of theirs, right? To have this talent, that you're gonna work so hard. I don't, I, well, I think that you have, well, you do. You have way more influence over that talent than you do over your explosive strength. I mean, infinitely more.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, cuz you can't, I don't know the, obviously I'm no genetics expert, but I don't know that there's a gene or a series of genes that gives you work ethic.

• 1:04:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I would say the answer is no.

• 1:04:24Jocko Willink?

  I mean, we could check with the bro-science like schools on that one.

• 1:04:30Jocko Willink?

  But there, I bet, you know, when they start breaking down this genetic stuff, they're gonna start finding stuff about people that's gonna be really interesting and some of it will be tight. I mean, I'm not going Sam Harris, you know, uh, you, your, every decision that you make is kind of pre-planned, free will. But, you know, I'm sure Sam and I will have a chance to sit down if he has the courage to, to step up to the plate and have a real conversation with me.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  But, but I'm, I bet as this stuff gets uncovered, they will find that there's a propensity. Like a propensity for focus. Cuz that's what hard work is, kind of, is just, hey, look, like, when I was going to college and I would get to, I, I would, one semester I took five English classes, the dumbest thing I've ever done. I would be so crushed with reading over, you know, during the week, but then on the weekend would come and I'd have to read five English classes worth of reading. And that was when I would be like, okay, I would have to like turn the switch in my head and just go full on

• 1:05:36Jocko Willink?

  sit there and read for 10 hours and read and memor- remember what I was reading. So that was a switch. It was like, oh, and I remember thinking to myself, I'd be talking to other people that had one English class. And they'd say, I'd say, they said, did you do the reading? Can you tell me what happened? And I'd be like, yeah, of course I did the reading. And they'd be like, I cannot sit down and read for that long. And I'd be like, well, A, you don't care, B, you lack discipline, C, maybe I've got a little propensity to be able to turn it on, or maybe it's just through force of will. Look, I wanna get an A in this class. Why? Because. Because I don't want these instructors looking at me thinking that they got a little something on me. No, you don't got anything on me.

• 1:06:20Jocko Willink?

  I'll read this material and I'll know it.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:25Jocko Willink?

  And all that, and all that right there is, it's so you do, just so everyone realizes I'm not crazy. That's just gamification. That's just gamification in my head to make things fun, to make things challenging. Right? I'll do that with anything all day long. You, if I've got something to do, I'm gonna have a good time with it.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it makes sense.

• 1:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we're gonna have a good time with it. I'm fine. So when you hear me, you know, I was watching something on Larry Bird.

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:06:48Jocko Willink?

  And he was this, he's famous for talking trash to all the other players. And, but he worked so hard. He was also famous for his work ethic. But I think there's a little bit of gamification, right? When you go, I'm gonna do this to you. I'm gonna do this. Like, he would come down the court and be, and you know, he'd say like, he'd say, uh, here comes three, who wants it? Meaning, come and try and guard me. I'm gonna hit a three pointer. And he would do it.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:13Jocko Willink?

  You know, there's a little bit of gamification. People respond well to that. So that's me when I was going to college. As a 28-year-old man, by the way, I'm not talking, I was an 18-year-old kid, all worried about how I looked and what the party, well, I wasn't worried about any of that.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:27Jocko Willink?

  I was in there to win. And in order to win, I made it into a game for myself. Oh, you think you're gonna ask me, you think that you're gonna come up with a question on this reading material that you gave me that I'm not gonna go know the answer to? Watch this. So that way, I'm actually paying attention, actually paying attention to what's going on. As opposed to, I don't care, doesn't really matter. I'm in the Navy anyways. Who cares what I get for a grade, blah, blah, blah, blah. I could make those excuses all day. You can always take the easy path if you want to. It's always there. But you just gotta remember that it leads downhill.

• 1:07:58Jocko Willink?

  And if you take the righteous path, well, then you're gonna move in the right direction.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it still seems like you got all those methods, we'll say, like from, you know, like you weren't born with that, you know, kind of thing. It seems like.

• 1:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Who knows?

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  You got.

• 1:08:17Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it does seem, it seems like it's a choice that I make. And it seems also like where, where you like, what you learned along the way, what, how, what, what lessons got reinforced? You know what lessons got reinforced for me? If I don't work hard, I'll lose.

• 1:08:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:33Jocko Willink?

  That lesson got reinforced on me over and over and over again. If I don't work hard, I'll lose. If I work hard, I can do better. I might not win, but I can do better. And I'll tell you something else.

• 1:08:46Jocko Willink?

  If your attitude is like, if your attitude is only, I'm gonna win. Like, that's why I'm doing this. You're not gonna win every time. But let me tell you what your attitude can be. I might not win every time. But I'm gonna get your respect. Yeah. You, when you get done beating me. When you get done beating me and you shake my hand, you're gonna mean it. Yeah. Because you, you had, you're gonna mean it. I'm gonna push you. At a minimum, that's what's happening. So if you beat me, and, and by the way, I don't hold it against you when you beat me. I respect. If you beat me, I know you worked. I know you got, I know you got after it. Which is cool. And I don't, I don't hold any angst whatsoever.

• 1:09:27Jocko Willink?

  It's good, actually. Cause I know that this guy worked harder than me and I know I gotta work even harder. So good for you. So that's, that comes, that's learned. That's me learning as a kid. Oh. I wasn't good at this. And even I look, look back at my life now. Like I wasn't great at soccer. I never played soccer outside the soccer season. Other kids are running around dribbling the soccer ball, whatever. Going to camp. Whatever. I didn't, didn't care enough. Didn't, didn't understand. The first thing that I got, well, I got very focused in the SEAL teams. And in the SEAL teams, because you're going against high caliber people. Not all of them, but you got some people at the top of the bell curve that are freaking badasses.

• 1:10:09Jocko Willink?

  And if you're, for me, so I got these incredible athletes. You know, when I checked into SEAL Team One, I'm gonna try and think of this, there's probably ten of us went to SEAL Team One, a pretty good chunk of guys went to SEAL Team One. There were some guys in, that went to SEAL Team One, that were total athletic studs. I mean, infinitely better than me in every category of athleticism. You know, and I knew like, okay, if I'm gonna hang with these guys. I'm gonna have to work really, really hard just to hang with them. Just to hang with them. Not to beat them. Just to hang with them. So that idea gets reinforced over time. Oh, okay. If I don't work hard, I'll be at the bottom of the barrel.

• 1:10:51Jocko Willink?

  And and then what it boils down to, if I'm at the bottom of the barrel, how much am I helping the team?

• 1:10:57Jocko Willink?

  Cause if I'm if I'm a if I'm a detriment to the team, I'm now now what am I even doing with my life? Right? I do not want to be a detriment to the team. I want to be a positive to the team. And even though I might not be the best guy in the platoon, I might not be the strongest, the fastest, the best shot, whatever those things are. If I'm third or fourth or fifth in some of those categories. Okay, well, now I'm a benefit to the team. Now I can help, which is what it all boils down to. And what it all boils down to is like, you know, you can make an excuse for yourself and live with it a little bit. Right? But you can't make an excuse for the team.

• 1:11:34Jocko Willink?

  Meaning, hey, look, even in extreme case, well, you know, if I'm not that great of a shot and the enemy gets a shot off quicker than me. Oh, well, I'm gonna die. That's the that's the job I've got. That's the choice of, you know, whatever. But if you just play that out one step further, if I don't get this shot off, this guy will have the chance to shoot one of my buddies. That's you need to you need to put more rounds downrange. You need to shoot more. You need to get better and faster. Faster on your reloads, faster on your draw, faster in your sight picture. You need to get better. Cause you don't want to let your teammates down. Yeah. So when that's what's really driving you, that's powerful. That's more powerful than I just want to be the best. I don't want to just be the best, because you can give yourself a little slack in there.

• 1:12:16Jocko Willink?

  But when you look at it, you say, oh, I don't want to let my teammates down. They're counting on me. That will make you stay up later. That will make you wake up earlier. That will drive you to try and be better. And that lesson, that lesson on me got reinforced over and over again. And if I didn't work hard, then I wouldn't be. I failed something in BUDs called pool competency.

• 1:12:43Jocko Willink?

  And I I failed it, right? And I was gonna say I shouldn't have failed it. And the reason I was gonna say I shouldn't have failed it was because I I was comfortable in the water. I'd done all the water stuff kind of first time every time, meaning. Not tying and life saving. I was good. I felt really comfortable. And so when I failed it, I was sort of, I was deeply disappointed that I failed it. And I was hyper worried that maybe I'm not gonna make it through this training.

• 1:13:12Jocko Willink?

  And so we, me and a couple of the other guys that failed, we spent the entire weekend in the dip tank, which is the, a little, a little box that you fill with water to clean stuff in. And I don't even know that, why the, the instructors led us to use dive gear. I have no idea why. This was not safe. And maybe we just did it. I don't really remember. But we got in this dip tank and we, we did pool comp to each other for hours. And we just ripped the stuff off and rip, you know, crushed each other until we went through the procedure so many times. When I went to retake pool comp, it was, it was easy. It was easy when I went to retake it on Monday. So, what, what lesson got reinforced? I need to prepare more. I need to work harder. I need to go the extra distance or else I can fail.

• 1:13:57Jocko Willink?

  So there's another little reinforcement. I told you this one before. I failed a run in SEAL training. Why did I fail run? I failed to run in SEAL training because I paced myself and said, well, you know, I'll save a little something. And I didn't have anything to save. What I needed to do was run as hard as I could. So, I failed the run when I paced myself. The next run, what did I do? When that, when they said go, I ran as fast as I could for the entire thing. Cause you're not allowed to wear a watch. So you have no idea what the time is. You, you just, and so you think about that. You think about when you're cruising on a run versus when you're running as hard as you can. It's hard to tell where that cruise level's at. Cause am I running, am I running a six minute mile?

• 1:14:38Jocko Willink?

  If I'm cruising, am I running a 630 or am I running a 720? It can be hard to judge, especially when you're sore. Like your, your body's sore. So, you know, if you did, if you did 500 eight count bodybuilders at three o'clock in the morning. And then you go out and you run your run, your pace, you might seem like you're running faster than you really are. So what did I learn from that? I failed the run. And now what did I have to do? I realized I could never let off again, can't ever. So there's a little lesson getting reinforced.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:09Jocko Willink?

  Over and over and over again.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Don't leave it up to chance.

• 1:15:11Jocko Willink?

  Don't leave it up to chance. Do the work. And that's the way, that's how you develop these things. No one told me, no one told me what I just said. I, maybe I wish somebody would have. And the reason I say maybe is because maybe you still don't learn it. Because there's some things that you have to actually go through. There's some things that the only thing that's going to teach you is experience.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and even, um, like these, you went through these things where the environment sort of provided these lessons. No matter how like overt or covert, they were like provided to you through the envi- Like, you know how like a, like a farmer or something like this, someone who's sort of grew up just working hard as a way of life. You put them in another environment where working hard will show itself or whatever. Or they'll work hard. Yeah, because the environment sort of provided that or whatever. So, yeah, so that makes sense. And obviously, we can't count every second of your life. And here's where this came from. And here's, you know, obviously, but it seems like the work ethic and, and being able to like show fortitude, like mentally through things or whatever. It seems like that's an environmental thing fully.

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  It is, and that's why Reg Curtis was biking five miles to work and five miles home every day, Monday, Monday through Saturday.

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Jocko Willink?

  Six days a week, get some.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Uphill both ways.

• 1:16:25Jocko Willink?

  Uphill both ways.

• 1:16:29Jocko Willink?

  So, that is what they learned in this training. Some of these things that we just talked about. And, and again, the book details these things really well. Uh, but, we're going to jump ahead right now to a, chapter five, a cruise to North Africa.

• 1:16:44Jocko Willink?

  "On the ship, I boarded and after endless trudging along narrow passageways and up and down the steep stairs and gangways, I was directed to an area below the waterline after the ship. Soon after casting off, we learned that we were heading for Algiers, from where we would take part in a combined operation by Great Britain and the United States codenamed Operation Torch." That's legit. You get on this ship to leave, you don't even know where you're going. You're just going to go get some. You, yeah, that's what you know. You know, you know you're going to go get some.

• 1:17:14Jocko Willink?

  Moving forward here, they're on the ground. And again, I hate to skip these parts. This is a book you gotta get. And I'll talk about how to get it at the end, because it's not a normal book. "We were informed that our objective was an enemy emergency airstrip close to a place called Suk El Arba in Tunisia. Along the way, we were attacked by two ME-109s. But these were successfully shot down by our escorts of Spitfires. Boom." "Thanks to the Americans easing their rule about smoking on aircraft, I managed to feel more relaxed by puffing through half a dozen cigarettes." So now they're going for the jump, by the way. They're going to jump into this into this emergency airstrip.

• 1:17:59Jocko Willink?

  "It was a three-hour journey in very hot and humid heat, and we sat in the plane sweating like pigs, singing songs and cracking jokes to try and hide our feelings." Chunky said, "Well, Lofty," that's his nickname. He brings it up a couple of times, "Well, Lofty, it won't be long now. See you in heaven." "You must be joking, mate," I replied tersely.

• 1:18:19Jocko Willink?

  "He's gotta be a damn good Jerry to catch up with me." Then the order was bellowed out. "Action stations!" It made me shiver. "Hook up!" I was sweating sweating like hell and felt a bit weak at the knees. I wondered out loud, "What sort of reception are we going to get?" "What, mate?" Crabtree asked. "Oh, nothing," I muttered. I hooked up my line with shaky fingers, managing to endure 10 minutes of standing while the plane came in to drop us at the airfield out in the wild 70 miles from Tunis. So the reason I put that part in there is just letting everybody know, especially you young troopers out there that are gonna go out and hold the line, you're gonna be scared.

• 1:19:03Jocko Willink?

  And even this guy, that is just a fundamental badass across the board. He's shaking fingers, he's sweating profusely, he's scared. And by the way, he's hiding it to the best of his ability. He's stifling that emotion.

• 1:19:21Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on, the jump master's piercing voice cut through the sound of the aircraft. Stand to the door. I swallowed hard and prepared for the exit. When the order to go rang in my ears, I became a changed man. It suddenly felt so much cooler being whisked about in the air. All around me were hundreds of parachutes. We were finally dropping into action.

• 1:19:41Jocko Willink?

  There you go. So, you're gonna be scared. Once you get in the action, you'll, you'll settle down. And, okay, so now this is they land, they move, and now they get into a situation.

• 1:19:58Jocko Willink?

  We were machine gun constantly. One minute we were in, put in buses, and the next, taking cover. Once, with Pat Dolan and Chunky, I dashed for safety across an open ground and slid into a hundred feet, slid into a hollow a hundred feet from a dirt road, as three small specks of Messerschmitts came diving straight for us from 4,000 feet. I lay on my stomach, looking at the aircraft through my camouflage net scarf as they came in fast. Much closer now, and the three of them opened fire. One concentrating on the road transport, the other two on our men scrambling for cover on each side of the road. Bullets slashed the ground 10 feet from us, kicking up fountains of dust. Bloody hell, Pat, that was close, said Chunky. They circled and came in for another run. This time really low, only about 50 feet from the ground.

• 1:20:45Jocko Willink?

  A couple of our AK-AT guns let fly. Jerry let rip, and Muck seemed to be flying everywhere, mainly rock splinters and dust. As one aircraft clattered by, I saw quite plainly the pilot with a white scarf around his neck. "You fucking fool, you might have killed us," someone shouted, and then let out a bellowing laugh. Amazingly, after all that strafing, no one was seriously hurt, and only two of our vehicles were rendered unserviceable. As time went on, things continued to hot up. And the buses were soon abandoned in favor of footslogging.

• 1:21:22Jocko Willink?

  So, again, this is like a horrifying thing to think about, these Messerschmitt 109s coming down and strafing you with machine gun. This pushing forward a little bit in the book, they're another.

• 1:21:36Jocko Willink?

  Situation. Then they turned towards us. Three Stuka dive bombers approaching us at about 5,000 feet. The sky was clear and visibility was good. It was most weird not knowing whether they were interested in us or just passing. But they were interested in us alright. The leading pilot made half a roll and nosed down the preliminary commencing that awe inspiring Stuka dive angle of 85 degrees. As it whined nearer, I could see the evil gullwind shape so clearly. It seemed to be approaching me head on and it was, and I was at my wits end as to whether I should get out and run for it or stay safely put but possibly perish.

• 1:22:17Jocko Willink?

  Before I could make up my mind, I saw four black dots moving away from the aircraft. They were bombs seemingly aimed directly at me. Their descent accompanied by a high pitched scream. I gripped my smock and braced myself. The sides of my slit trench took shook and a shower of freshly dug soil cascaded over my face, partly filling the trench. Christ, that's close, I thought aloud. The other two Stukas came in to repeat the treatment and there seemed to be a never ending succession of bombs violently vibrating around. Then the drone aircraft drifted away and as, and as black smoke billowed slowly skyward, voices began to ring out as men sought to, sought reassurance that others were okay.

• 1:22:59Jocko Willink?

  Chunky was there on the edge of my trench, asking if I was alright. Putting on a brave front, I said I was. And I was, except for a little excretion. But then getting away with nothing more than a wet pants after that lot did not hurt my pride. I didn't tell the others though. So that freaking bombs dropped right on top of him. Pissed his pants. No factor, happy to be alive. Continuing on, we'd only been in, and this is again skipping, we'd only been in Tunisia for a few days and our bag of enemy killed or captured was fast increasing, together

• 1:23:42Jocko Willink?

  with quite an assortment of armored cars, motorbikes and weapons.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  They get into some gunfights. I found myself going on a volunteer burial party for men known to be lost or killed in action. For any dead or wounded paros, that's the parachute guys, the Arabs could be the biggest menace as some of them would think nothing of stripping a corpse of its clothing and then just leaving it. If a ring would not come off the finger with ease, the finger might be severed to achieve their greedy end. At times, it was reported that wounded of both sides were mutilated by these scum.

• 1:24:23Jocko Willink?

  And here's out on these, um, basically like on a little burial party after some of these battles had taken place.

• 1:24:32Jocko Willink?

  We came upon two more paras, one lying by a large rock, a jagged cut with dried blood right across his temple. The other, just a few yards away, looking a bloated blue-green. I had seen dead soldiers before, usually just after being killed, but this retrieving of privates, papers, of private papers and dog tags from dead men was not in my book of training. And I was lost for a moment, wondering if I was alone in this nightmare.

• 1:25:03Jocko Willink?

  And then there's a, there's a padre with him, a, a minister with him. And he says, the padre broke the silence by inquiring in a most serene voice. Now who have we here? We buried those two side by side.

• 1:25:21Jocko Willink?

  And then he goes forward here, things were beginning to hot up now, and we found ourselves taking part in some large scale skirmishes with an enemy who is not going to take it all lying down.

• 1:25:35Jocko Willink?

  And he says hot up, he doesn't say heat up, and he says that throughout the book. So I'm, that's why I probably put a little extra expression on it. So people don't think that I was mis- misreading it. But he says, things were beginning to hot up now. Maybe we'll bring that back.

• 1:25:51Jocko Willink?

  And here we go, fast forward a little bit. I was just taking up position with the mortar when the CO went around firing his pistol in the open side slots of the tanks and calling for the crews to come out. So here's the CO and there's some tanks, some enemy tanks, and this guy's approaching them with the pistol. On reaching the third tank, shots were fired back and he fell clutching his chest, followed by his adjutant, Captain Miles Whitelock, who was hit in the face amid the general din of battle. I was too busy to get, trying to get dug into the rocky soil to make out exactly what had happened, but Sue learned that the CO had been severely wounded and Major Pearson was now to take over command. It was a great blow to me at this time, also

• 1:26:34Jocko Willink?

  to hear the death of my old friend Stanley Wandless.

• 1:26:41Jocko Willink?

  I was horrified by a different sight, an enormous brute of a pig munching away at a dead German soldier. It seemed the pig had somehow come across the wine in this farm, got filthy drunk, and was eating everything. Such scenes became horribly familiar, but my stomach gradually grew accustomed to them.

• 1:27:05Jocko Willink?

  On Christmas Day 1942, I watched the rainfall as I tried to make myself a little more comfortable in my slit trench. Rain trickled down my neck, my hands were wet and cold, and if I had had a cigarette, I would have enjoyed it. My feet had been constantly wet for God knows how long, and I was beginning to feel a teeny bit browned off when, good news, we were being withdrawn for a rest. Off we went to Suk El Kamis, where I thoroughly enjoyed the luxury of a mobile bath unit, delousing and refitting. It was heaven, but we soon returned to the grind once more. So again, I picked out some highlights of the first kind of action that they had, but you

• 1:27:47Jocko Willink?

  have to get the book to kind of follow along exactly what they'd been through, but they'd been through really tough fighting and then finally they get the, they get the turn, they get the word that they're gonna take a little break, which they do, but you know, like I said earlier, it's a little break. It's not big. And just like I talked about the times where you get a little reprieve from the cold, wet, miserable, but then it's time to go back in and that's what you have to do. And these guys do that.

• 1:28:18Jocko Willink?

  Going on here between the two that they end up in this spot between the two towns is a hill called Jebel Mansour. The commanding height to the Pont du Tunis road. It's 2,000 feet above sea level, five miles around at the base and has an easiest climbing angle of 45 degrees. Also known by us as Hill 648, it was occupied by crack German Africa Corps and Alpine troops. And it was our job to take it at all costs.

• 1:28:53Jocko Willink?

  I thought this would be a tough nut to crack, but the men were determined to win.

• 1:29:01Jocko Willink?

  Through the through, but the men were determined to win through and shift the enemy once and for all. We checked our arms and ammunition and collected 48 hours rations. So there's this dominant high ground that they need to take. And it's got the Africa Corps, who I talked about earlier. It's got the Alpine troops. These are, these are really good German troops. And this point early in the war, you know, this is when, this is when the German army, the German military was, was really, really good. I mean, later in the war, they were still good, but they, you know, they suffered massive casualties and they started having like little, you know, younger troops, inexperienced troops, Hitler youth, you know, kids that were 14 years old out on the front lines getting after it.

• 1:29:46Jocko Willink?

  This is early in the war. These are experienced troops, you know, these are the troops that were.

• 1:29:54Jocko Willink?

  This is where, you know, the Prussian roots of military genius are showing through in these troops. And this is it, this is, this is, these are tough, tough. And this is a tough enemy.

• 1:30:06Jocko Willink?

  So going on here, we started off and it was quite a long way over rough and uneven ground before we halted at the base of an ugly, massive looking hill. The usual advanced bombardment that preceded most attacks was not forthcoming on this occasion as we wanted to maintain the element of surprise. This time Jerry would be first to rock the boat. As we waited at the base of the hill, the sky now and again became bright with German nightlights, which when fired heavenward made the whole area quite luminous. Everyone froze until they fell to earth and safety returned once more in the form of semi darkness. In this waiting game, I found my thoughts straying back to England.

• 1:30:48Jocko Willink?

  What I could do for a couple pints of English beer. It was not till four o'clock in the next morning, we ventured carefully toward, forward, through the undergrowth. Up went two more German nightlights, then two more, then still more. The place was illuminated like daylight. They must have got wind of us, or smelt us. We could determine the nationality of a soldier from, at fifty feet, if the wind was favorable. So probably they could do the same. From the top of the hill, two machine guns began firing. Then more joined in as the place were alive with them. And they slashed and ripped mercilessly at the bracken, slicing the branches of trees, as if an invisible sharp knife had done the job. A bullet went through my trouser leg, grazing my thigh, but I didn't think too much of it, as I was still mobile.

• 1:31:34Jocko Willink?

  German mortars started hitting the approach slope, and yells of pain here and there told me to take more care. The wine overhead was also warning that the enemy artillery was joining in. As things hoted up, with the occasional tracer bullet, mixed in with the machine gun fire, I could almost feel the hot lead piercing my limbs. It was certain I would not get away with it this time. Farther back, things had gone wrong with our usual stalwart mules. The amazing animals that carried our heavy gear, where men could not set foot. They didn't appreciate the sudden shelling and bolted out of control. Major Clemens B. Thompson managed to round some of them up with the help of a French officer, Major Preolou.

• 1:32:16Jocko Willink?

  And then all hell seemed to be let loose. Our men yelling, "Woo-hoo, Mohammed!", as the R and T companies went in with their bayonets. Unfortunately, S Company missed their correct route. The tapes laid to assist their ascent had been damaged or cut by the enemy activity. And, at the count, we were to find that they had suffered extremely heavy casualties. And this chant of "Woo-hoo, Mohammed", this is throughout the time that they're fighting in Africa, and they do it when they get to Europe as well. It's just something that the locals did, and they started doing it too. It's kinda like the term gung ho. Which gung ho, the Chinese term which means work, it's actually a Chinese communist term,

• 1:33:01Jocko Willink?

  which means work together. And, you know, we use it and they started using it, I believe it was in the Korean War. They started using that term, but it might have been in World War II, working with the Chinese. Anyway, that must have been when it was, must have been during World War II. When they were working with the Chinese and the Chinese would say, gung ho, work together.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Kinda means getting fired up now.

• 1:33:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, now, yeah, that's how we use it, Americans. We can take work together and turn it into get after it.

• 1:33:31Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:33:33Jocko Willink?

  The barrage we were set up against was intense. And a ricocheting bullet or shell splinter often did as much damage or more than a straightforward burst of fire. We could occasionally be lucky. At one time, an artillery shell failed to explode on impact with the ground and went on mercilessly ricocheting three times before coming to a rest with a dull plop.

• 1:33:55Jocko Willink?

  But the bombardment was unrelenting and we had to work, and we had our work cut out here. There was agonizing shrieks of pain right and left of me as I passed unrecognizable, as I passed men unrecognizable soaked in blood being tended to by our splendid medics. Those unsung unarmed heroes. Sam Koster and Frankie Thompson had reached the summit and searched out and dealt with the enemy with no ceremony whatsoever. As Sam told me afterward, Frankie was lunging and tossing men with his bayonet as though he, as though they were sacks of straw. Frankie was a big chap, usually very friendly and quietly spoken, but in action, a different man.

• 1:34:40Jocko Willink?

  Picture that. Bayonet on your rifle and you're throwing men off of it, lunging and throwing men with your bayonet as if they were sacks of straw. Frankie Thompson done play.

• 1:34:54Jocko Willink?

  Amid the, all the turmoil and dead and wounded of both sides, the curtain of fire had lifted and there was not a sound. This is once they get up to the hilltop.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  Looking around the hilltop, only a few of our men could be seen moving among the twisted forms. Our R, T, and S companies had suffered very heavy casualties. More than half of the battalion officers had been killed or wounded.

• 1:35:26Jocko Willink?

  He, as they kind of get settled on the top of the hill, he, as they're preparing for a counterattack, which they know the Germans are gonna do, he gets sort of tasked with going around and helping and gather up the sick, the wounded and the dead. He goes on here, "Setting about the job of collecting the wounded was something sickening."

• 1:35:47Jocko Willink?

  "As I gazed upon the scene of our once able and live comrades, now quite still or with torn limbs, I wondered whether there was any such thing as civilization."

• 1:36:00Jocko Willink?

  "I bit hard on my lip and went about my task with grim determination." "Looking around for someone to help, I noticed a lad who was in the same troop as me early in 1941." "Hello, Taffy, and what have you been up to? Like a lift?" That's how he greets this guy. "Cheers, Lofty," and like I said, Lofty is the nickname of Reg. "Cheers, Lofty. It's nice to see someone alive," he said wearily. He was in a sitting position and had apparently been hit by no fewer than five bullets. "They were all clean flesh wounds in the calf, thigh, forearm, and one through the apex of his penis,

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  and all rather uncomfortable, but no broken bones. He was pretty well saturated with blood, but cheerful."

• 1:36:49Jocko Willink?

  "Let's try a fireman's carry," I suggested. He'd had a shot of morphine, so I didn't think he would feel too much. "Anything to get away from here," he said. At that point, Jerry started up again with artillery and mortars, then a few snipers, and to make it really interesting, some Sukka dive bombers, Stukas dive bombers, that joined in the chorus. "Let's get going before it gets too hot. I've gotta get you on my back," I said. So once again, this is, you know, he's saying this so kind of matter-of-factly. He's up there trying to rescue this wounded guy who's obviously badly wounded. He's been shot five times.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  And then they start with artillery and mortars and then snipers and then Stuka dive bombers. That's what's going on. And then he says, he says, let's get going before it gets too hot. It's like, it doesn't get any hotter.

• 1:37:46Jocko Willink?

  "I've got to get you on my back," I said. "I managed to get him over my shoulder without causing too much pain." And we started along the long trek through wooded country ravines and open waste. It was a ticklish and tender job, but for two hours we struggled on. I was sweating like two pigs. And he goes through a description of how hard it was to get this guy to an area where he could get some of the help that he needed. Once he gets that guy dropped off, continuing on, "I joined a section of, I joined a section comprising men from T and S companies. They were mostly newcomers. I wondered what had become of all the friends I had not seen since the attack started. One of the lads told me that Major Canron, Conron, had been killed and Captain Mellor too.

• 1:38:30Jocko Willink?

  I felt so alone. No disrespect to the reinforcements, but the cream of our men were fast disappearing in the foothills of Tunisia." Jerry was counter- counter-attacking in earnest now and slinging everything at us in the way of explosives with batches of Stuka dive bombers joining in at two-hour intervals and making things even more deafening. The muck was falling heavily and a splinter from a nearby bursting bomb slashed a vein in my right hand while another pranged my helmet.

• 1:39:05Jocko Willink?

  Nipping over rocks and creeping through bracken and bush under a hail of bullets and screaming shells I'd been become, I became cut off from the party of men I'd been attached to. I was making good progress and stopping for a breather, dropped into a small depression in the ground. Suddenly a lone German pounced on me from the rear. I realized what was happening instantly when I saw the field gray cuff of his uniform. My schmeizer, which was out of ammunition, was slung bandolier fashion over my shoulder, but I had an American forty-five automatic Colt ready in my right hand. I went down on one knee, summoned up the unarmed combat I had been taught, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and heaved him with all my force over my head.

• 1:39:49Jocko Willink?

  It was my turn now and I was not so gentle. As he rolled onto his back, I sprang and landed my fourteen stone weight, feet first on his chest, grabbing the Colt which I had released to dangle on its lanyard. I started to squeeze the trigger, shouting, "You butcher bastard." To his, "No, no, comrade, no, no, no." I pulled the trigger. But it was empty. I grabbed his rifle, checked that it was loaded, and ordered him to his feet. "Donka, donka," he kept saying, hugging his chest as we moved off. And with that, he starts moving to get this prisoner back under control. Arriving back at Borada, after the formality of delivering my prisoner into custody,

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  I rejoined the rest of the battalion. We were in great need of rest and a refit, and we were all sent by truck to a place called Tabor Suk, some sixty miles away. While Borada was handed over with thanks to the Americans. We were very soon back with the brigade, so they get a little breather. We were very soon back with the brigade, this time in the Jebel Aboid area. The brigade's manpower was well down with the enemy, and the enemy usually outnumbered us three to one. Death Ridge, as my first para position in Happy Valley was known, also developed the name Shellshock Ridge.

• 1:41:19Jocko Willink?

  I tried closing my eyes at any given explosion. It was a terrible feeling, like waiting to be massacred.

• 1:41:29Jocko Willink?

  The Germans started to mount an attack. It was daylight and I could see motorized enemy units being dropped off at points as near as they dared to our positions, three or four miles off in the direction of Sedijan. They spread out in extended order and started toward us. We were told to hold our fire until the last minute, so the whole first battalion lay very quiet and still. Enemy mortars saturated the area. I felt the draft of an exploding shell, which deafened my left ear and left it ringing. And at the same time propelled me to the bottom of my trench, making me even wetter than I already was.

• 1:42:08Jocko Willink?

  Now the mortar barrage lifted and I could hear the silence of the Solothurn machine gun fire as it severed the undergrowth. The enemy getting nearer all the time, sixty yards, fifty yards, forty yards. I peeked gingerly over the edge of my hole in the ground, thirty yards, twenty yards. Then above the din, the order was bellowed, "Fire, fire, fire, advance, advance." As we went out to meet them, the battalion flung everything the enemy that it flung, everything at the enemy that it could. Tommy guns, Bren guns, Sten guns, captured Solothurns and Schmeizers, grenades.

• 1:42:49Jocko Willink?

  English, German, and Italian coupled with the cry of "Woo-hoo, Mohammed." Gripping my rifle, I advanced through the murderous fire, the haze of smoke, and the acrid smell of explosives. Every available man was on this one, even the cooks. Before long, the tables had turned in our favor. With two dead paras lying to my left, I hopped over a dead German and came upon a wounded one a little to my right. He was contemplating using a Luger pistol, but I booted it from his hand and clomped him in the face with the butt of my rifle. The whole episode was soon over, with the enemy beating a hasty retreat and leaving a bag of captured, clean-shaven German parachutists flown indirect from Germany to deal with us. What a shock for them.

• 1:43:33Jocko Willink?

  So that's like, just, again, whatever. A couple paragraphs, maybe two paragraphs. And, I mean, it's total insanity, right? The guys are twenty yards away before they get the, the order not only to fire, but to advance.

• 1:43:55Jocko Willink?

  Continuing on.

• 1:43:59Jocko Willink?

  This is now they're doing a coordinated attack.

• 1:44:03Jocko Willink?

  While we pushed on with two para and three para brought up the rear, the British 139th Brigade attacked on our right. In time, the pimple, well, this is the name of like a little knoll, was retaken and our brigade proceeded to press home the final assault amidst devastating artillery and mortar fire from both sides.

• 1:44:25Jocko Willink?

  Tragically, we found that we had gone a little too fast for our 25 pounders to increase their range quickly enough and we suffered heavy casualties from our own fire. At daylight, I passed Jock Pearson, crouched by a rock, bellowing into a field radio and none too pleased with the person on the other end. "What do you think you're doing?" he roared. "You're killing all my bloody men."

• 1:44:54Jocko Willink?

  So, little horrible blue on blue scenario happening.

• 1:45:01Jocko Willink?

  Man.

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  Everything, but everything seemed to be in our favor now. Even the weather was kinder and we must have advanced about eight miles under a curtain of continuous fire, both, until both Italians and Germany were ready to give in. And we're running to be captured. So, think about this scene with just massive fire and you're advancing under that fire for eight miles.

• 1:45:37Jocko Willink?

  They get, um. They're, they're doing this, they're continuing to advance this part in here. Messerschmitts buzzed the area, spraying the ground spasmodically and causing those nearest to drop quickly into convenient holes. We pushed on at a steady pace, past demolition guns, past demolished guns and supply dumps, the air stinking with appalling butchery. I glanced instinctively towards a shell burst 50 yards away as I watched its jet black smoke belch skyward. My gaze was transfixed by something odd on the ground. I wondered if it could be a human. Drawing nearer, I saw that it was the roasted body of a man in the sitting position.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  He must have been driving a scout car or light vehicle as there were small pieces of charred, twisted metal spread fifty feet around with dismembered arms and legs, torn and blood-soaked uniforms littering the black scorched soil. The aroma was diabolical. Someone accidentally brushed the sitting form on passing and the body simply disintegrated with a sickly sound.

• 1:46:51Jocko Willink?

  Fast forwarding a bit, the smell of burnt flesh coat floated in my direction and I quickly and I quickened my pace to get clear of it. Plotting on in these awful humid and dusty conditions, I think I felt almost immune to weariness and the shocking sights of war. Nothing seemed to be able to stop us now.

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  And this is, again, you gotta read this book, but this sort of concludes this section. The first parachute brigade group was not destined to take part in the final push to Tunis. Our role in the campaign had come to an end and we were withdrawn from the line, so ending five months hard slog. And again, that, I mean, we're just burning through this book and I'm skipping so many sections. This stuff is, this is five months. This is half a year just about of this type of fighting. Originally trained as shock troops in Tunisia, after the initial parachute assaults, we had served as plain infantry.

• 1:48:01Jocko Willink?

  But that's just the way the wind blew for us. Medals were plentiful and all ranks had earned them. Eight distinguished service orders, fifteen military crosses, nine distinguished conduct medals, twenty-two military medals, three Croix de Guerre and one Legion d'Honneur. In their own way, even our German adversaries had recognized the brigade's fighting ability by naming us the Red Devils.

• 1:48:36Jocko Willink?

  For those who were there, though, the price of success was unspeakably high.

• 1:48:43Jocko Willink?

  We had lost more than seventeen hundred men, killed, wounded, or missing.

• 1:48:54Jocko Willink?

  So, again, I hate to burn through five months of insane fighting.

• 1:49:01Jocko Willink?

  And, and I'll, I'll take a dig at Reg right now. Like, he's so matter-of-fact about stuff, and he only hits on the high points. I'm hitting on the high points of the high points, right? Just insane, insane to think about that for five months.

• 1:49:21Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, from there, they're transported from Tunisia back to Algeria, and they spend time training for a drop into Sicily, a parachute drop into Sicily, which, once again, you're fighting in Africa. Look, it's really tough conditions in Africa. Now you're getting closer to Germany. Like, you're going into, going into Sicily. You know what's waiting for you.

• 1:49:46Jocko Willink?

  It was hoped that if Sicily could be taken, it might prompt an Italian surrender. A large proportion of my battalion, including myself, now went down with dysentery.

• 1:49:57Jocko Willink?

  Goes into talking about a lot of that. This is no, this is just, it's like, no, nothing's easy.

• 1:50:04Jocko Willink?

  Between exercises, we acclimat- acclimatized our reinforcements to use every to use every type of enemy weapons, including Schmeizer automatic, which we found superior to our own Sten gun.

• 1:50:18Jocko Willink?

  So now, they start, uh, preparing for this mission in Sicily. There were three bridges to take in Sicily.

• 1:50:28Jocko Willink?

  And the password for them was to be desert rats with the reply, "Kill Italians."

• 1:50:37Jocko Willink?

  As the plane took off, Chunky said, "Well, this is it, our second operation." "I tried to act normally, but could feel the sweat running down my cheek." So, once again, he's stifling some emotions. And here they go, getting on this, getting ready to do this drop.

• 1:50:58Jocko Willink?

  And this is just, it's just crazy. As we drew nearer to our objective and at a thousand feet, I could see the flak and tracer zipping past the wing of the aircraft. For thirty minutes, we dodged everything they threw at us, but it was a tense half hour as we were helpless to do anything. So you're in an airplane, you're getting ready to parachute, and there's flak bombs exploding around you trying to take down your aircraft and tracer fire zipping. You know how much protection an aircraft gives you from tracer fire, from machine gun fire? Zero.

• 1:51:33Speaker 01

  What's flak?

• 1:51:35Jocko Willink?

  So it's anti-aircraft. They set it for a certain altitude, it goes up in the air and then just blows up in hopes that some of that shrapnel will hit the aircraft and damage the aircraft and take them down.

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Gotcha, so flak jacket.

• 1:51:51Jocko Willink?

  So flak, actually flak is just little chunks of, it's fragmentation, right? Little chunks of metal that, that come off of explosive device like a grenade or artillery round that's gonna blow.

• 1:52:06Speaker 01

  Like on purpose?

• 1:52:07Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  Like that's what it's for? And then a flak jacket?

• 1:52:10Jocko Willink?

  Is to protect you from flak.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  Gotcha.

• 1:52:13Jocko Willink?

  And in the old days, like the flak, the term flak jacket, the flak jacket would protect you from flak, it wouldn't protect you from a bullet.

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:21Jocko Willink?

  Cause flak isn't going as fast as a bullet is. So like an old school Vietnam flak jacket wouldn't stop bullets, but it would protect you from flak.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, like motorcycle jacket kinda thing, like it's like, it'll, it'll protect you, but not from the real deal.

• 1:52:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. So even, so even nowadays, right, the expression like, don't give me any flak. It's like kinda that.

• 1:52:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly what it is. So these guys are up there and like he says helpless, and by the way, this is a half an hour of this.

• 1:52:55Jocko Willink?

  Suddenly we're given, continuing on, suddenly we were given the order to hook up. I did so and waited. The engines cut back on the approach to our drop zone. We descended to around six hundred feet with all sorts of rubbish whizzing by and the plane pitching and tossing like a toy in a vast vacuum. Then there came a terrific explosion as our tail was hit. The order, "Jump, man, jump!" screamed in my ears and I tumbled through the doorway into the void below.

• 1:53:24Jocko Willink?

  So the aircraft finally takes a devastating hit. He doesn't, he doesn't mention whether the aircraft made it or not. He just says that it, you know, the tail was hit hard. I can't imagine that's super easy to fly a plane once the tail's been blown off.

• 1:53:40Jocko Willink?

  Now he gets on the ground, again, fast forward a little bit, on the ground about 300 yards to my left was the main coastal road to the town of Catania. And enemy traffic was in tremendous confusion. To my rear, I could hear Italian voices and about 100 yards to my right, Germans rapping out orders. Then down the road came a 15-strong German patrol. They could have been parachutists judging by their dress and headgear. Fortunately, I was not alone when they were just a few yards off and we opened up on them. There were some grunts, groans and sickly yelps, then silence.

• 1:54:20Jocko Willink?

  We slipped on in the direction of the bridge, around which our men were by now silently killing, harassing and panicking the German and Italian defenders.

• 1:54:30Jocko Willink?

  At night, small battles raged unceasingly and we were pinned down for a long time by mortar fire. When daylight broke though, I saw for the first time the vast mountain scenery at the base of which we had been fighting. Again, I'm, I'm just jumping through stuff. Then the sun starts to come up. It became warm. And then the heat became intense. Typical. You're never, you, you can never just be comfortable. It's always like freezing cold or too hot. You, what do you, he had 15 minutes where it was warm and then they were too hot.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  There had been no firing for some time and I realized that the enemy was no longer with us. Scanning the countryside, I could see burnt out cars, Italian tanks and ammunition dumps. The smell of burnt bodies and oil filled the air. I was glad to move on. Such a confusion of our brigade, such was the confusion of our brigade drop that come daylight, three men from, the men from three para discovered they spent all night fighting alongside the men of first para without realizing it.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  At the bridge, it was clear that there had been a fierce battle. The pillboxes had been rushed and dealt with ruthlessly. Here, the brigade mustered approximately 180 men, but the three-inch mortars and ammunition had not arrived, and there was a lack of communication with outside units. Wireless sets, those are radios, had been either incorrectly netted back in Africa, were damaged on the landing, or just did not arrive. We learned that German parachutists from the 3rd Regiment of the 1st Fallschirmjäger Division had dropped simultaneously on our drop zone the previous night. So we must have indeed have brushed shoulders with them when we came upon that 15-man patrol. How crazy is that?

• 1:56:17Jocko Willink?

  You're jumping into a drop zone and the Germans are jumping in there too.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  And then he goes, as things start to escalate, he's talking about how hot it was, like hot as in not heat, temperature, but hot as in enemy action. Little wonder things were so warm. The area within an approximately two-mile radius of the bridge was festooned with 88-millimeter and 20-millimeter guns, pillboxes, machine gun pits, and also a few coastal guns, and we were engaging with crack German troops, including paratroops. They presented a good target whenever they got too near the bridge. You could not miss, but word went around that our supply of ammunition was now drastically low. "Conserve ammunition and fire only when you are absolutely certain of a kill," was the order.

• 1:57:08Jocko Willink?

  But in due course, members of the 1st and 3rd pair of battalions at the northern end of the bridge withdrew to join us at the southern end. The enemy was getting harder to ward off as tanks and tanks began to appear.

• 1:57:25Jocko Willink?

  Now we got tanks, enemy tanks on the scene. We were using captured Italian 40mm anti-tank gun along with our own anti-tank gun. The battle worked up to a terrific climax. The Germans were sending their best troops in an effort to shift us. Their paratroopers probing for weak spots and allowing no respite. Food was in our haversacks, but there was no time to get it. It was fire, fire, and keep on firing. Finally, there was a lull at about 18:30 or soon after, giving us a chance to take stock. Maybe the Germans wanted to regroup. I checked my ammunition and found only four rounds left, plus one in the chamber. At 19:30, we were ordered to withdraw in order to avoid capture and go in small groups.

• 1:58:08Jocko Willink?

  We made it off in a westernly direction toward the Gorna Lunga River. If we could use the river and the road running parallel to it as a guide for a couple of miles, perhaps then we could be clear of any enemy concentrated attack. So these guys are basically bagging out of the area.

• 1:58:31Jocko Willink?

  And as they're doing it, they're doing it in small groups. At one point, as darkness fell, we came upon a deserted farmhouse, but decided not to enter as it was quite near an abandoned flak gun pit. We thought both sides would be, we thought both could be booby-trapped. It was approximately 0200 by now. We were very tired and hungry. We dozed off in an orchard 20 feet from the edge, each man at the base of a different tree so as to be less conspicuous. So they spend the night in this orchard.

• 1:59:01Jocko Willink?

  And then they set off. Once again, we saw no more of the enemy. Vialantini. We reached Augusta, some 15 miles from Prima Soul Bridge. Finding the town in our hands, it was a great sight to see so many of our own troops and tanks.

• 1:59:21Jocko Willink?

  And so they continue on reaching Syracuse without mishap on this on the 17th of July, just four days after dropping into Sicily. We soon set sail, arriving back at Seuss in Tunisia on the 20th. Our first parachute brigade group had not only suffered heavily in the North African campaign, but in Sicily too, where we had lost a further 300 men killed, wounded, or missing. It was time to rest, refit, regroup, and reorganize. And we also got to relax.

• 1:59:58Jocko Willink?

  So, I mean, this, this is a group of men that are now just hardened combat vets.

• 2:00:06Jocko Willink?

  And yet, there's no war, there's no end to this in sight, right? I mean, there's no end.

• 2:00:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I guess if you looked at it from a strategic perspective, knowing what we know today, maybe you could say there's an end in sight. But if you know, you're barely surviving this, you're barely surviving it. You know what the end is. I mean, you have to accept what the end is probably going to be. The end is probably going to be you're not going to live.

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  In early November, we were told that the whole first airborne division was returning to England and the first parachute brigade would leave from Algiers at the end of the month. On the 29th of November, we shipped out of Algiers on the SS Samaria, happily heading for Liverpool. Now, one particular chap made a popular appearance. Peter, the battalion's unofficial, unofficial, lovable dog. Peter liked water and jumping from planes and was the only parachute dog on record. At first, he was owned by a lad named Topper Brown, and rumor had it, they had both escaped

• 2:01:19Jocko Willink?

  from Dunkirk in 1940. Peter was a marvel and could do almost anything asked of him, never forgetting a trick. Put a stone on his nose and back away and he'd remain motionless. But at a given command, he would toss and catch that stone. Water was his god. There'd been static tanks eight feet deep at Balfour, into which a stone could be thrown. Peter would retrieve it in no time and then sit patiently, waiting for another run.

• 2:01:49Jocko Willink?

  When we had set off for North Africa in October the previous year, he had been smuggled aboard the Irundel Castle. Everyone helping in the scheming to get him aboard and keep him fed, exercised, and comfortable.

• 2:02:04Jocko Willink?

  He had been left behind in Algeria in the good care of the cooks and the rear echelon party when we went on to meet the enemy in Tunisia, where Topper Brown was taken prisoner and sadly never heard of again.

• 2:02:19Jocko Willink?

  Corporal Jim Nash, the battalion hairdresser of our company, then took care of Peter. And it was at Matmore in Algeria during training for the Sicily operation that Jim took him up for his first jump from an aircraft. A special bag had been made and was fixed to Jim's front with a hole at the top for Peter's head to protrude.

• 2:02:41Jocko Willink?

  They made a perfect landing, Peter running off as happy as Larry wagging his tail. After various other escapades, Peter returned to Algiers and was smuggled aboard the Samaria, where he was having a great time, until the locker door of his hiding place was accidentally left unsecured during one of our boat drill procedures, and he ventured out on his own.

• 2:03:06Jocko Willink?

  He was found wandering below by the ship's officer, who ordered him to be put over the side. We were just two days out from Liverpool.

• 2:03:17Jocko Willink?

  The men were furious, and it was just as well that the officer responsible could not be found, as a roving band of justice-seeking paras could not have been expected to be lenient.

• 2:03:29Jocko Willink?

  As far as Peter was concerned, he had such enthusiasm for water that maybe it was fitting to end up in a sea grave, but we felt his loss.

• 2:03:40Jocko Willink?

  I don't mind admitting that we fighting men had a soft side, even after all we'd seen and done, perhaps especially after all we'd seen and done.

• 2:03:54Jocko Willink?

  I wrote Peter a poem entitled "Epitaph to a Friend."

• 2:04:00Jocko Willink?

  Its last verse as follows: "Peter made us happy and carefree. He had no military apparel, he made just two jumps. His grave is the sea. His wings truly earned, and the name, Red Devil."

• 2:04:23Jocko Willink?

  Kind of a theme that we see come up from time to time. The attachment that soldiers can get to these, to these dogs that they, they come across at some point. And unfortunately, a, a recurring theme is some rear echelon person that doesn't understand killing those animals.

• 2:04:51Jocko Willink?

  And I also thought it was, you know, it's interesting, that line, "I don't mind admitting that we fighting men had a soft side even after all we'd seen and done." And he says, "Perhaps especially after all we'd seen and done."

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  That's something that is, I mean, I, I think that's absolutely true, you know, you, there's no better, there's, the sunset looks a million times, infinitely better. When you know the sacrifices that have been made to see the sunset. The white bed sheets that you get to sleep on, you appreciate infinitely more when you've been sleeping in the dirt for six months. And it goes on and on and on. And so when you see, when you see the depravity that, that human beings are capable of,

• 2:05:38Jocko Willink?

  well, that can actually expose the fact that you really can cherish a innocent, innocent little dog.

• 2:05:56Jocko Willink?

  And these guys arrive back home.

• 2:06:02Jocko Willink?

  Get stationed, the first battalion gets stationed at Grims Thorpe Castle. And at this point, they know something really big is in the air.

• 2:06:14Jocko Willink?

  And he says here, in August, men coming from our old training area of Tatten Park reported seeing thousands of tanks there, like a giant tank park. Sure enough, in mid-September, we were finally setting off somewhere. I checked over my gear, one Gammann bomb, two dot three-six hand grenades, combined pick and shovel, webbing equipment with small pack, two ammunition pouches and bandolier with three oh three ammunition, water bottle, mess tin, iron ration, field dressing, camouflage net scarf, triangle-shaped air recognition bright yellow silk scarf tied around the neck for, ready for instant use, rifle, and an escape kit comprising of a silk map of Europe, a small button compass,

• 2:06:59Jocko Willink?

  and a strong file the size of a nail file. That was about it, except for a kit bag strapped to the leg, and parachute, plus Mae West life jacket in case we finished up on the drink. I felt like an overdue pregnant hippo and didn't know where to put anything else. Though still, I added two hundred cigarettes, two bars of chocolate, and some boiled sweets.

• 2:07:23Jocko Willink?

  It's interesting, the, uh,

• 2:07:26Jocko Willink?

  the yellow scarf for recognition, and he specifically says, tied around the neck for instant use. And it's interesting, we, we kind of, I always carried one. The basic reason why I always carried one was because I was a radio man when I was a young enlisted guy. And I'd used it at times, I had learned the value of it, um, signaling helicopters and signaling boats in the jungle. Like, if you, and the weird thing is, you, it, it, when you're in a, let's say you're in a boat in a river along the jungle, there's so much jungle to look at that it's really hard to see someone waving their hand. Like, it seems so obvious when you're waving at some, waving at a boat, hey, hey, I'm over here.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  First of all, they can't hear you because they're running engines, shooting machine guns, they can't hear you. And second, because they're looking at- Whatever quarter mile or half a mile of green bush. They got this whole thing to try and find you. And you're in a green camouflage uniform and you're waving your arm. They can't see you. So you need, I would always have a aircraft panels, what we called them aircraft signaling panel, which is just bright fluorescent orange and I could whip that thing out really quickly. And then it, then you become a lot more visible. Same thing with the aircraft overhead. Well, in Ramadi, it didn't take long before everyone was carrying that. Because, and they were carrying big ones too, like a platoon or like an element that was going in a building would have a big giant one that you could

• 2:08:53Jocko Willink?

  hang out a window. Everyone, we are here. Hey, friendly forces, we are here. So even this guy, World War II, that bright yellow silk scarf, important signaling device at the hand.

• 2:09:10Jocko Willink?

  He says, I, I wondered how the rest of the men were going to fare on this hop. I was just getting used to the new faces. Like Frankie Panzer Manzer, Bill Silbury, Terry Brace, Dick Bingley, Dolly Gray, Major Perrin Brown, Sid Oxley, Gov Beach with his top hat. The Germans will surrender in surprise if he takes them with that, I thought. Joe McReedy, Patty McCormick and Captain Joe Gardner.

• 2:09:46Jocko Willink?

  I mean, just, I just had to read those names for two reasons. Number one, because they sound like the best bunch of characters you could ever hang around. And also, so everyone remembers that all these people that we're talking about, they're all people.

• 2:10:06Jocko Willink?

  Unfortunately Sergeant busty Everett had fallen ill and died at born.

• 2:10:13Jocko Willink?

  We were from all over the country and beyond, and on the whole, one big happy family. It was daylight when we clambered into trucks and headed toward the aerodrome at Barkston Hall. Everyone was tense, but ready to go. Come what may.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  He goes on here, "Our objective was to capture and hold the bridge straddling the Rhine at Arnhem.

• 2:10:43Jocko Willink?

  My first parachute battalion was to seize the high ground to the north. Our escorting Typhoon, Spitfire and Mustang fighters were weaving between the Dakotas and gliders as we crossed the English Channel. Tension began to mount in my plane. We approached land on the other side and could see the area that had been flooded to try and stop or impede the advance of our land forces. I was admiring the landscape when the order rang out. Action stations, hook up, green light, on, go."

• 2:11:11Jocko Willink?

  Being number 13, I had a few long seconds to wait as I shuffled forward. Then I felt a slight pat on my parachute back and again found myself tumbling out of the doorway into that familiar open void. My parachute opened once more obediently and I drifted down to earth without difficulty. After a good three-point landing, I was now in enemy occupied territory. Except for the occasional machine gun fire and some blasting from enemy machine gun emplacements, the landing had been unopposed and the whole dropping zone north of Heeslam was packed with gliders and discarded parachutes. Everyone soon collected themselves and rendezvoused at their respective points. The time was just after 1500 on Sunday the 17th of September 1944."

• 2:11:55Jocko Willink?

  The time was just after 1500 on Sunday the 17th of September 1944.

• 2:12:04Jocko Willink?

  Leaving the drop zone, we made our way quickly along the track, running alongside the wood west of Wolfhees and south of the railway. The end of the track lined up with a road running parallel to the railway. Turning right here and then over the road onto the railway sidewalk, we nosed our way toward Wolfhees Station.

• 2:12:26Jocko Willink?

  Suddenly, there was a loud explosion up ahead and some machine gun fire. And now this is when things start to

• 2:12:36Jocko Willink?

  get hot.

• 2:12:38Jocko Willink?

  Our company still up front became engaged in a fierce battle facing armored cars, mortars, and machine guns. It was getting dark now. The whole battalion laid doggo for a while to try to avoid further detection. We lay up in the woods for some hours, pushing on occasionally but cautiously.

• 2:12:57Jocko Willink?

  At one point in time, unbeknown to the enemy, they completely surrounded us.

• 2:13:04Jocko Willink?

  In the semi dark, so here they are, they're kind of like laid up, they're not trying to move too much. In the semi dark, we passed down winding lanes. This is when they start pushing forward through the woods and along the south side of the road. We were now about five miles from the Ardnam Bridge, and so far luck had been with us. At about 2 o'clock in the morning, there were sounds of battle ahead, apparently coming from an area northeast, north northeast of Lichtenbeek.

• 2:13:34Jocko Willink?

  On arriving there at about 0500, we found that the leading companies had met fierce opposition and had suffered heavily. Then, with no reason given at the time, the original plan to go for the high ground north of Ardnam was changed, and we instead turned south towards Mariendal and Osterbeek, some two miles from the bridge. At 0600, we entered Osterbeek, where we met members of the Dutch underground movement who showed us the easiest route to the bridge.

• 2:14:09Jocko Willink?

  We were moving cautiously in a file, ready for action, and everything seemed a little bit too quiet. At 0630, as dawn was breaking, we moved up into a built up area, and then it started. The enemy had been busy overnight, preparing gun emplacements, taking up positions at vantage points, posting snipers, and concealing tanks and SP guns.

• 2:14:32Jocko Willink?

  German gunfire shattered the peace and I darted for cover and took up position in the neatly laid out garden of a nearby house. More firing came from the house direction. With two other men, I ran around the back of the house and fired at two Germans in the shrubbery. They must have had their chips. With two other men, I rounded around the back of the house and fired at two Germans in the shrubbery. They must have had their chips amid the smoke and fire of machine guns, SP guns, and six-barreled mortars. The battle ranged, the battle raged and built to such a pitch that I became quite accustomed to it and went about the task as if on street fighting training back at home.

• 2:15:14Jocko Willink?

  We hadn't eaten since leaving England, but I was too busy to be hungry. Casualties were mounting incredibly fast and in every direction, I could see motionless forms of our men cut down in their tracks. Progress was slow and the battle became more intense as the bridge loomed gradually nearer. With two other chaps I did not know, I chased after some Germans in a house. We threw a grenade in and dashed through the door to finish them off with stand and rifle. Looking around for any more of the enemy, we were belted, we belted to the rear of the house. I tripped over a broken fence and went sprawling. As I scrambled up, I heard a close whine and recognized, which I recognized was a mortar. I dived for cover by a low wall and the bomb landed very near, near enough to feel the

• 2:15:59Jocko Willink?

  draft. Snipers were taking potshots at us, dodging and weaving through gardens and backyards. I came to stop at opposite a factory held up by, held up by heavy mortar machine gun fire yet again. I threw myself into the ground. It was absolute bedlam with the slicing sound of German southerner, so, southerner guns, their bullets cutting the air in every direction. And the repeated stonk of mortars, followed by the whine and sound of hot shrapnel hitting the rooftops. A small lump, lump of shrapnel hit my helmet, sounding like a pee on a drum. In the heat of battle, men were shouting curses, lobbing grenades through open doors

• 2:16:42Jocko Willink?

  and windows, and following up with shrieks of contempt for the enemy and the cry of "Woo-hoo Mohammed!"

• 2:16:49Jocko Willink?

  Casualties really began mounting. There were groans from men who had been hit. Motionless paras lay in the road and slumped over walls. I saw a pair of feet protruding from a garden gateway. One boot blown off but leaving the foot complete. Such was the magical phenomenon of war. The German firepower was murderous and all I could do was keep alert for the sound of English. I had a horrible feeling that my battalion was being cut to ribbons.

• 2:17:27Jocko Willink?

  Going forward a little bit, there was a heck of a battle going on inside the factory and men were scrapping furiously with grenade stens, Colt handguns and fighting knives. The wall of the house opposite received a blast of machine gun fire coming from behind me. I was about to move off in pursuit of a German in the garden of a terrorist house on my right. When I felt an explosion just beneath me and a sharp pain. Reeling over and looking down, I saw that the lower part of my right leg was in a most unusual position and blood was oozing out steady and fast. I shouted for help and two paras dashed up quickly and rendered first aid. One of them, Sergeant Nobby Hall, called for a medical orderly.

• 2:18:12Jocko Willink?

  I was worried but felt like a nuisance.

• 2:18:16Jocko Willink?

  As everyone was busy enough already without being lumbered with me. I was placed on a stretcher and carried into a wooden shed a few yards away where medics cut the boot off of the foot of my shattered leg smashed by an explosive bullet.

• 2:18:33Jocko Willink?

  It looked awful, but strangely I didn't feel much pain. They tore open the field dressing I had carried for so long in different parts of the world. But never previously needed and carried out a quick but thorough job. Pandemonium was raining outside as machine so at this point, obviously, he's been wounded. He's been wounded really bad. His leg is in very rough shape. He can't walk. Pandemonium was raining outside as machine gun fire echoed around the built up area. A mortar bomb landed quite near, but the medic administering a morphine injection kept a steady hand as if he were in the safety of a hospital back in England. So the talk about detaching. The medic is just cool and calm.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  While the other medic hunted around for suitable makeshift splint, a young Dutch girl appeared from nowhere and offered me a welcome cup of water. I was feeling cold and clammy and her help was a great comfort, as was the morphine, which soon began to take effect. There was another series of explosions just ahead. A clear signal to get moving. And I was carried cautiously to the corner of a house next to the road I had come down only a short while ago. Everyone was scattered. Everyone was scattered and there were dead paras in the road, on the sidewalk and in the gardens. Snipers were busy and our men were bent on winking them out. There was a thud, a whiz and a bark of an exploding shell, followed by another and another, all bursting on the rooftops of houses thirty yards back.

• 2:20:05Jocko Willink?

  Then something flashed from an upper window only twenty yards ahead and bullets splattered on the wall above us. The medic set me down to wait for an opportune moment to get across the road. And I saw four paras press themselves into the wall of the building opposite as they worked their way toward that flash. Went under the window, the leading para kicked the door out. And out of the window came a potato masher, which he immediately picked up and threw back in. The potato masher is the classic German grenade with a long handle on it. Which they did so that they could throw grenades as far as as the Americans could. Cause we play baseball and they play soccer and you don't kick. You don't kick grenades, you have to throw them.

• 2:20:49Jocko Willink?

  The leading para kicked the door and out of the window came a potato masher, which he immediately picked up and threw back in accompanied by a Mills bomb, which is their grenade thrown by another man. There was quite some explosion, following which four paras entered the building spraying Stengun fire in the room and threw up through the floorboards, a trick we had learned in training. I was more than relieved to get out of the line of fire was carried into the relative safety of a garden wall. As I lay helpless behind the wall, I had a clear view of the clatter and confusion of the battle and the through the demolished gateway. So he goes on here. Obviously, I'm not covering the whole book, but covering some sections of things that are unfolding.

• 2:21:34Jocko Willink?

  I was moved with a number of other wounded men to a nearby barn where I spent a fairly easy night, thanks to the powerful effects of the morphine injection I had been given. Early the following morning, all was reasonably quiet in the immediate vicinity, although I could hear the sound of battle not far off. Looking around the barn, I didn't recognize anyone from my first battalion and those men I spoke to did not want to know. They were either too preoccupied with their wounds or unable to talk at all. Some of them looked as though they had just lived through a nightmare, which I would say is an accurate statement. And again, it's like everything that he's talking about is just, you know, complete

• 2:22:19Jocko Willink?

  mayhem combat. That's what he's talking about. It's just totally out of control. And finally, it settles down a little bit for that night. And it sounds like maybe the probably the Brits at that point had done done a good counterattack, maybe established a perimeter. Unfortunately, doesn't last. At about 0700, two medics came up to me and said that my turn was next. This is as they're trying to extract him. Lifting the stretcher, they carried me to a waiting Jeep. It's engine running. There were four walking wounded in the backseat and I was strapped to the front of the bonnet alongside another chap who was already strapped in on the on beside the windscreen. He forced a grin. What's yours?

• 2:23:04Jocko Willink?

  I asked. They got me in the guts, he said bluntly. That's a nasty place to cop it, I thought, feeling sorry for him. A short, stocky medic jumped in the driver's seat, saying, "Hold tight in the back and don't wear U2 in front on the bonnet. We might have a rough ride and it will be a bit fast."

• 2:23:29Jocko Willink?

  What do you even do? I mean, they take you, they put you on a stretcher on the hood of a freaking Jeep. And they're like, and the medic says, "Hold on to the guys in the back and says, "Hey, up front, don't..." They've got him strapped down. There's nothing they can do. They can't move. I wouldn't want to do that on a Tuesday afternoon.

• 2:23:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:23:46Jocko Willink?

  You know, going like to the market.

• 2:23:49Jocko Willink?

  I mean, imagine I'm like, "Hey, Echo, I want to take you to the market. I put you on the hood of my car, strap you down and say, "Hey, it's gonna be a little rough."

• 2:23:59Jocko Willink?

  After a fast, fast forward, after a fast, bumpy journey, the Jeep tore through Oosterbeek, past the divisional headquarters at the Hartenstein Hotel, and pulled up sharply in the drive of the Taffelberg Hotel a few hundred yards farther on. Airborne medics quickly unstrapped me and took me inside, setting me down on the floor opposite a window in the entrance hall. The Hotel Taffelberg had been German Field Marshal Walther Modell's headquarters prior to our arrival the previous Sunday, and we were now using it as an improvised military hospital. It must have taken a few knocks, as it was now in absolute shambles. As usual, the British Tommy had managed to brew up,

• 2:24:41Jocko Willink?

  even in such hazardous conditions, and I was given a mug of tea and a bar of chocolate, my first food since leaving England two days earlier. I had not touched my ghastly iron ration. I tried to sleep, but with the interruption of shelling and mortar fire prevented that. When night fell, I just longed for daylight to come again. I hated the nights. It was bad enough to be meeting angry Germans in battle, but it was worse to do so while I slept.

• 2:25:07Jocko Willink?

  The next day, Wednesday, I was grateful to be taken into the operating room ingeniously rigged up in the kitchen of the hotel.

• 2:25:16Jocko Willink?

  So he gets some, he gets some preliminary work done on his wounds.

• 2:25:21Jocko Willink?

  And of course, the Brits, I know I've talked about this, they like to brew up their tea, and they will do it.

• 2:25:29Jocko Willink?

  That's how they roll. "I was returned to the entrance hall where the din of battle and bullets hitting the wall outside made me look out. I was surprised to be, to see a German wandering about." So picture this, you're in a hospital, you just got like the shrapnel cut out of your leg, they take and set you down, and now you're watching the battle out a window and you see a German wandering around.

• 2:25:50Jocko Willink?

  "He took up a stand positioned by the door and then began pacing up and down."

• 2:25:56Jocko Willink?

  "Just then there was a loud crump outside and debris, plaster and glass fell all around. I looked to see where that one landed and the German I'd seen outside only a few moments ago was now sprawled out, killed, I presume by one of his own mortar bombs." But that should tell you where the situation there is, there's Germans outside the window, walking around.

• 2:26:17Jocko Willink?

  "I was set down at the head of the stairs. To my right lay a glider pilot, who had a face and arm injury. Amid all the wounded, who covered most of the landing area, came a wounded man walking. Our eyes met. Did I know him? I hardly knew anyone. They were unrecognizable, clotted up with blood and dirt."

• 2:26:37Jocko Willink?

  Then, up the stairs, belted some combat paras. And we asked them how it was going. And I had, I had to capture this because this is just as British as it gets. So these, there's, like we just said, there's Germans walking around outside, this place is total shambles, and they see a couple paras and he says, "Hey, how's it going?" And one of the paras answers, "Not too bad, not too bad, could be a bit better."

• 2:27:05Jocko Willink?

  Before disappearing back down again. That's like, uh, that's a no factor response. Yeah, oh, by the way, we're about to get overrun, but, not too bad, not, could be better, but you know, we got this.

• 2:27:18Jocko Willink?

  Fast forward a little bit. A wounded man with his arm in a sling approached me with an inquiring look. "What unit, chum?" he asked, almost in a whisper. "First pair," I replied, amid a shower of dust and smoke as yet another shell exploded very near. He winced and withdrew from the direction of the shell blast, just as we felt the ominous vacuum of warm air. He was almost incoherent as he glanced around the terrible scene of man-made destruction. "I just left the bridge," he said. There was quite a pause. "What's it like there?" I asked. He swung around, glaring at me as if the whole war was my fault, his eyes hard, staring in red with fatigue. The poor fellow had been hit through with something bad. I offered him a cigarette,

• 2:28:02Jocko Willink?

  and with a trembling hand he took one. It hung limp in his grasp. "Thanks. I don't really smoke, but I'll have one," he said. Then he answered, "It was bloody hell there. Tanks belching fire, blokes getting killed left and right. The carnage was terrible." He paused as a medic passed by with a man clutching his side and hobbling on one leg, a bloody congealed bandage wrapped around the stump where once had been a foot. My lad drew hard on the cigarette, and coughing, continued, "There were hordes of them. It went on for hours, attacking, shelling. Then the bastards started burning us out. My two mates got killed. The twisted and broken bodies of our men were strewn everywhere."

• 2:28:47Jocko Willink?

  He leaned back against the wall, looking a little more at ease. I don't know, but I think it may have been the first, I may have been the first person he had spelt out his experiences to. Later he told me that it was his first time in action. I thought he had ridden it bloody well.

• 2:29:06Jocko Willink?

  The next few days seemed to drag on forever, with my leg giving me much more pain now than it had during the first 24 hours after I was hit.

• 2:29:16Jocko Willink?

  And so, obviously, these guys are rallied up and they're suffering, but it doesn't mean that they're safe continuing on. There are so many shells landing in, on, and around the building, plus the occasional burst of machine gun fire splattering the inner walls, that I imagine we must be slap-banging in the front line, or somewhere in no man's land. By the way, that's the field hospital. There were hundreds of wounded, enemy included, as well as Dutch people caught up in the fight, so many that some got moved to the hotel's annex across the driveway. And any man with flesh wounds or injuries that did not hinder the use of a firearm was ordered outside to fight. So if you could fight, now it's

• 2:29:59Jocko Willink?

  time. It was now the 23rd of September, and I was lying still at the head of the broad stairway, and there was commotion down below. "Those ruddy huns again," said the glider pilot. "There was a shuffling and German orders were being wrapped out." Then, some SS troops dashed up the stairs. A sinister-looking type, about 20 years old, led the way and was coming right out, coming right at me. I found myself looking straight down the barrel of his schmeizer, his trigger finger shaking. I didn't bat an eyelid. I just did not want to upset him and give him a cause to let rip. He was glaring at me with red beady eyes. "Christ, this is it," I thought. I had heard of other wounded being shot up, but my luck

• 2:30:40Jocko Willink?

  was in and he passed me by. He and two other SS men had a good look around, and then took up firing positions at windows in rooms leading off the landing. As they started to fire out, Colonel Warwick dashed up the stairs, swearing and rebuking them for firing from a clearly-marked Red Cross building. Discipline took over. They looked defiant and sullen, but with fingers handling their automatics hesitantly, they reluctantly obeyed the officer's command and stopped firing.

• 2:31:10Jocko Willink?

  So as I, as I talked about earlier with the, I mean clearly these are some Germans that have respect for the law of armed conflict. And they, they're, which, uh, let's just start with this. We're in the hospital building and now we got the, the Germans in the building using it as a firing position. I don't even know what to say about this. Like what, what is that even, how do you even translate that into, into reality? You're wounded, your, your hospital is getting ordered and machine gunned. And then there's German enemy soldiers in your building firing from inside your building. Walking around, looking at you.

• 2:31:54Jocko Willink?

  Oh, and he comments about this. It was most strange to have enemy in the building one minute, only be replaced by your own combatmen the next. So that's his statement about it. Is that, yeah, it was strange.

• 2:32:07Jocko Willink?

  I wondered how the rest of my first pair of battalion were doing. Right from the Sunday night, RR Company had had a tough time losing half of its men in the De Liridoodle area. Then 40 men of 6th Platoon, S Company, were killed in two minutes on the approach to Arnhem, Arnhem. And in the Denbrink, St. Elizabeth's Hospital and Factory area, the rest of the battalion was badly mauled. In the midst of it all, Father Benson, a Roman Catholic priest, was busy making his rounds and answering urgent calls. One man so constantly needed.

• 2:32:52Jocko Willink?

  Things began to get on my nerves that morning. Which is kind of interesting. Because he's been through all this stuff. He's wounded, he's surrounded by the enemy. He's on his whatever, however many hundreds of days in close combat that he's been in over the past few years. And now that he's wounded and surrounded, and there's men screaming and dying all around him, things are getting on his nerves a little bit this morning.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, makes sense.

• 2:33:21Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what, that's what Reg is up to.

• 2:33:25Jocko Willink?

  So, things began to get on my nerves that morning. What with the continuous din of battle outside and my leg getting more painful through lack of proper medical attention, I called for Father Benson to offer a few words of comfort. So he came and put me at my ease. Later, he was, too, wounded by tank fire into the building. I'm sorry to say that he died from those wounds.

• 2:33:49Jocko Willink?

  And was buried in the grounds of St. Elizabeth's Hospital. On the following day, the disposition was frightening. Once again, understatement. The British understatement. Because as far as I'm concerned, everything up to this point is completely horrifying.

• 2:34:09Jocko Willink?

  On the following day, the disposition was frightening. Our men were still doing their damnedest, but the Germans were slowly closing in, very slowly. Mark you, for they lost heavily and had to fight for every inch of the bloody ground they got there.

• 2:34:24Jocko Willink?

  With things getting hotter still, I was moved again to what was thought to be a safer spot, just to the other side and along the landing area. Suddenly, there was an almighty explosion in the room on my right. Men were already wounded, once, twice, were hit again, and some were killed.

• 2:34:43Jocko Willink?

  There were piteous cries coming from that room. It was at this time that Major John Waddy of the 156th Parachute Battalion, who had started his parachute days in India when the battalion was first formed, was wounded again, and two English medics and a Dutch nurse were killed. A medic now came out, cradling a form in his arms. The chap he carried could have been dead or unconscious. He was covered in blood, and his arm was shattered and hung pathetically by his side. His left leg bandaged from his first wounding.

• 2:35:18Jocko Willink?

  Christ, I wish I were outside.

• 2:35:22Jocko Willink?

  There was another resounding crash of bombs followed by curses. Perhaps I was better off in here. It was bloody awful for everyone, everywhere.

• 2:35:34Jocko Willink?

  Outside, the situation was getting completely out of hand. Further enemy reinforcements were mustering around the perimeter in the form of powerfully armed tanks from the SS Panzer divisions with long-barreled high explosives and armor-piercing shells. The passage where I lay ran from front to rear of the hotel, and I was facing the rear with a grandstand view of the battle through a gaping hole in the wall where once there'd been a window. Now and again, one of our men would break cover to stalk the enemy, and then the enemy would repeat the process with the multiple accompaniment of shell burst, tank fire, machine gun fire, curses, and yelps of pain.

• 2:36:13Jocko Willink?

  I heard the ominous sound of an approaching tank. I couldn't see it, but the squeaking of its caterpillar wheels grew even louder. Then it came into view, its great gun traversing from right to left. Picking its way through the trees, it stopped for a few minutes to feel its way. And then the gun barked out, sending a shell across my front to an unseen target. The other wounded were lying huddled together, trying to afford each other protection. The floor was littered with debris, blood, and glass, and there was an incessant whine and explosion of mortar bombs, together with the shriek and crash of artillery vibrating the very foundations of the building, which I thought would at some point tumble down.

• 2:36:59Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what time it was when the shelling and gunfire stopped, but after a din of the last six days, it felt very strange to suddenly be so much quieter. There was still spasmodic firing in the distance and a little shelling, but nothing to worry about. We began to converse more freely. "Gone on strike, Jerry?" one man almost shouted, except that his had half his mouth bandaged from a shell splinter wound. "Nah, he's packed up as Jerry and buggered off," a Cockney put in. The glider pilot was more cautious. Crafty sod is the hun. He's got something up his sleeve.

• 2:37:39Jocko Willink?

  Then I saw men being carried downstairs with great activity going on outside, but not of battle.

• 2:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Two medics picked me up, both of them silent and not looking too pleased. "Where to now?" I asked. The Elizabeth Hospital, one told me.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  The enemy had overrun us and was calling the shots.

• 2:38:06Jocko Willink?

  So, the Germans were now in control.

• 2:38:10Jocko Willink?

  He gets taken outside. Outside was a ghastly sight with the fallen, dead of both our sides, lying where they had gone down. British and German medical orderlies were putting the wounded into jeeps and various other vehicles, including two small vans improvised as makeshift ambulances. Three of us stretcher cases were loaded into a small, open German lorry with shallow sides, which would prevent us from bouncing off in transit. There was just enough room for five walking wounded.

• 2:38:42Jocko Willink?

  Now they're on this drive. "We all had shattered bones of some sort, which made us cry out in pain during the rough ride in this antiquated lorry, and I was still more than pleased when it finally came to a standstill at journey's end. At the hospital, there had clearly been heavy fighting and as spent cartridges could be seen littering the floor and entranceway.

• 2:39:06Jocko Willink?

  I heard the familiar voice of a friend. "What the hell are you doing on that stretcher? Scrounging for a lift?" I went to answer, but nothing came out.

• 2:39:18Jocko Willink?

  Can you imagine you go to a hospital and the floor's got bullet casings all over it?

• 2:39:25Jocko Willink?

  Word got around that the whole show was over, and I began to wonder what really went wrong. The battle had been lost, but it had been some fight. As mortar sergeant Dick Winningham later riley remarked, "We may have lost the battle at Arnhem, but we did come in second. It should be noted that there had not only been a great loss of life in this battle, but also massive local destruction with one in four houses,

• 2:39:54Jocko Willink?

  totally destroyed and most of the remainder badly damaged."

• 2:40:02Jocko Willink?

  And so, again, you know, I talked about the seeing the different sides of the Germans. And, you know, we already saw some of the Germans, the prisoners being sickened by what the kind of civilian casualties were taking place as they evacuated Dunkirk. The Germans that were firing inside the hospital and then when they get told by an unarmed, you know, leader, "Hey, get out of here," they're, "Okay, fine." They're grumpy, but they leave. Just the fact that these, the patients are, the wounded are getting treated actually pretty well. So they end up in this sort of makeshift hospital. "A South African orthopedic surgeon, Captain Alexander Lipman Kessel, was going to see me.

• 2:40:47Jocko Willink?

  He commanded one of the surgical teams of the 16th Parafield ambulance. I was thankful that I was not going to have a German butcher. I had seen the end result of a German doctor's amputation of a man's foot, crudely almost guillotined and without anesthetic. I was carried into a large room with medical apparatus everywhere, trolleys and tables laden with all sorts of instruments, bandages, field dressing and splints. I was placed on a hard, narrow table about four feet from the ground. In the distance, I could hear the sound of gunfire and German flak, which meant that our aircraft were in the vicinity. The anesthesiast put up, had his needle at the ready and medics were preparing for the operation when there was a noise rather like a giant balloon having air released and then a terrific explosion.

• 2:41:31Jocko Willink?

  With a very quick presence of mind, one medic threw a blanket over me and shielded me from the blast with his own body as shattered glass fell in small pieces and slivers all over the operating theater. Then all went quiet again and the blanket was pulled carefully to reveal yours truly with popping eyes. My treatment had to wait another day while the place was cleaned up. Fortunately for me, the next visit was uninterrupted. The wound was cleaned and redressed and I had my first plaster cast put on." And so, like I said, it seems like at this point, it's relatively civilized.

• 2:42:08Jocko Willink?

  I mean, if you can forgive a bomb exploding while you're about to get surgery, but relatively civilized compared to what they'd been through. At one point, there's an SS officer comes in and they kind of go through the different individuals there and they finally get to him. And when he tells him he's a airborne guy, they say, "You're going to a prisoner of war camp."

• 2:42:31Jocko Willink?

  And he says, "Here, it was September 28th, it was the 28th of September when German orderlies carried me out of the hospital, not so carefully as our own medics, and I had to hang on to the sides of the stretcher as we descended the stone steps at the entrance to avoid sliding off."

• 2:42:47Jocko Willink?

  And now he gets transported again. This time he ends up at the Wilhelm III Kassern Barracks.

• 2:42:58Jocko Willink?

  "We were given iron beds with straw-filled pillows and the floors were dirty. There was no heating and only a meager supply of medical necessities."

• 2:43:10Jocko Willink?

  And then at one point, a doctor, or I presume he was, entered the room, accompanied by a rotten Führer of the SS Medical Corps. "The stench from my wound caused disapproval on the face of the doctor and grabbing my big toe with his finger, he slowly raised the leg which began to bend at the wound beneath the knee where both the tibia and fibia were broken. Stopping, he peered at the wound inquisitively. 'Do you mind? That hurts,' I told him, whereupon he simply released the hold of my leg and let it fall on the hard table, instantly turning to go, looking at me in the eyes with a sadistic expression

• 2:43:48Jocko Willink?

  as he did so. You bastard, square-headed shite hawk,' I said. I couldn't care less if he didn't understand the phrase. He just raised an eyebrow with an inquiring look and departed, while I returned to my private world of pain. Then the medics came back with that infernal SS guard and redressed and replastered my leg."

• 2:44:13Jocko Willink?

  So, like I said, there's, I mean, it's not great treatment, but I mean, let's face it, he's alive. And, yeah, he goes on here, "I was at the barracks for a little more than a week, when one morning, I was prepared for yet another move, this time, a short journey to the Juliana Hospital in Appledome, Appledorn. My stay at Juliana Hospital is going to be the longest and best as far as medical cares go. The hospital was staffed with Dutch doctors and nurses, helped by our own doctors and orderlies, and the Germans left us well alone to fend for our own medical requirements." Like I said, that seems fairly civilized to me.

• 2:44:56Jocko Willink?

  And they're trying to help him out, and here we go, "It was decided to apply a gadget called a Kirchner wire extension to my leg. As both bones were broken below the knee, the theory was to stretch the leg and try to marry the bones in the correct position. Under an injection of Evapane, a steel bar was shot through my ankle bone to act as an anchor. A steel cable was then attached to the anchor and to a pulley apparatus below the foot of the bed. Weights were added each day to steadily stretch the leg, otherwise I was told, I would be left with a two-inch shortening, necessitating the use of a club boot at a later date, which I didn't much care for. But my general condition, my general and local condition had regressed considerably,

• 2:45:38Jocko Willink?

  and I was at my lowest ebb. I was now wishing that I could see the end of this confounded, useless lump of decaying flesh and bone. On the 19th of November, I got my reluctant wish, and my leg was amputated by Major Peter Smith of the 133rd Parachute Field Ambulance. As I later learned, it was not a moment too soon. Prior to the operation, I had been regarded as a hopeless case, one of those certain of not lasting."

• 2:46:13Jocko Willink?

  After surgery, however, I made such an amazingly quick recovery that I was back to life and sitting out of bed only a week later. The medical orderlies could not do enough for us, from baths to fetching bedpans, carrying patients from the bed to the loo and back again, soothing and dying, soothing the dying or reading a book for those too weak or exhausted to do so for themselves. They were always on call, all hours of the day and night. I wondered when they managed to eat or sleep. I asked one who was passing with a bottle in his hand. He answered quite cheerfully, "Oh, we get forty winks now and then with a snack in between." So there you go. I mean, almost one sentence.

• 2:46:55Jocko Willink?

  No, two sentences. He was wishing that he could get this, this decaying hunk of flesh off of his body and the next time, the next sentence is he got it amputated. That's, that's, that's how much... That's, that's... That's as matter of fact as you can get, I guess is where I'm going with this. This is one last little section of this. A Polish para who had dropped at Arknim was opposite me in the corner of the ward. He'd been cut up badly and was having a rough time.

• 2:47:38Jocko Willink?

  A German military clergyman kept calling to say prayers and finally came to administer the last rites. As he stood there, in the, in his dark olive green uniform, black jack boots and belt, peaked cap under his arm, I scrutinized his close-cropped bull neck and square jaw. I could not help but notice and thought how strange that he wore a gun holster. A man of the cloth with a pistol in a hospital. What next?

• 2:48:12Jocko Willink?

  So he talks about, you know, the care that he gets. He starts getting moved around a lot. The Germans kept shipping us out as soon as they thought we were fit enough to travel. And once again, I found myself in a truck this time heading to the rail station at Appeldorn, where we pulled up alongside and boarded a Red Cross train.

• 2:48:30Jocko Willink?

  And of course, this stuff just never gets easy. Daylight came with a German doing his nut and shouting Spitfire, Achtun, Spitfire, Achtun. I watched a lone Spitfire turn and fly parallel to the train at about 100 feet with the same distance from the train. It was quite cheeky, I thought. The pilot was having a real close look to make sure it was a hospital train. I could see clearly his goggles were off and white scarf and felt like giving him a wave as he disappeared behind some pine trees. We were now in Germany with snow-covered mountains and forests of fir, log cabins dotted here and there, making it all so picturesque.

• 2:49:07Jocko Willink?

  As nightfall came, we halted at a dismal-looking place, a small town, I think. Unfortunately, the luxury was now over, and we were ushered off the train in a collection, on a collection of crutches of varying lengths that were produced and given to the leg amputees.

• 2:49:25Jocko Willink?

  So they get, end up in this like, just junk place. We were all a bit under the weather with the added unpleasantness of an amputation. One lad had an arm and a hand missing, another two arms off, and most, like myself, had lost a leg. One poor fellow was the worst for blisters on his one and only foot. We had a wounded medic who was with us and did all he could to help with minimal medical supplies. We had only paper bandages. It was not the best of nights on the cold stone floor, but I somehow slept. Others were not so fortunate. And one chap did not even live to see the rest of the journey, remaining motionless the next morning

• 2:50:06Jocko Willink?

  as we were roused by the guards. So this is, transport continues, gets on a train.

• 2:50:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh, finally ends up at another place. The snow was quite thick and we pulled in what looked like a school in a small town near Munster. Three of the Yanks and myself were told to get out and then a lorry carried on its way, leaving us standing in the crisp snow. A voice called, "Welcome buddy, come in." He was a big American from Indiana called Marvin Adams.

• 2:50:37Jocko Willink?

  Inside, he showed us to a room on the left. "Grab yourself a pillow and bed down here." "I'll do yours bud," he said, looking me up and down. "How'd you manage that, feller?" "Put the best foot forward at the wrong time," I answered. "Ah, well, this ain't the Ritz, but we'll have fun," he said. I wondered what he meant by that. Always good to be that person with a good attitude, even when you're in a damn prisoner of war camp.

• 2:51:07Jocko Willink?

  Going on here, the Germans' guards were nonexistent except at night. As we were all severely wounded and there was thick snow outside, they were obviously not worried about a mass escape. Food was sparse but regular.

• 2:51:22Jocko Willink?

  And then, again, more moving. I was just getting used to this place when word went round that Jerry was moving us, some of us maybe for repatriation. Having only one pin, meaning leg, I thought I stood a good chance to be in on this. Then, early one morning, three Yanks, two Russians and myself were ushered to a truck and taken on a passenger train, in which we traveled a few miles, only to detrain again, perhaps to get another connection for as our yet, for our as-yet-to-be-undisclosed location, destination.

• 2:51:56Jocko Willink?

  And then they get off that train, they get on another train, they get on this other train. After shunting around a bit and hitching up to another train, we rolled off again. It was dusk, cold, and pretty dismal, all told. Then someone struck up our version of the song, "Bless 'em all."

• 2:52:18Jocko Willink?

  And their version of the song was sawed them all, sawed them all, the long and the short and the tall, sawed all the sergeants and the W O ones, sawed all the corporals and their bastard sons, for we're saying goodbye to them all, as back to their billets they crawl, you'll get no promotion this side of the ocean, so cheer up me lads, sawed them all.

• 2:52:44Jocko Willink?

  And he says, it seemed we had joined a group of British soldiers, but this was by way of an introduction.

• 2:52:54Jocko Willink?

  They finally make it to Bremen, we pulled in slowly and as the train came to a stop, there were sounds of doors opening in the hustle and bustle of people getting off and making their way along the platform, and then it happened, an air raid warning winded out, civilian and military personnel immediately began scurrying about, and the military, I noticed, did not hesitate to shove anyone else out of their way. A little shot at the, uh, German military, the civilians are getting pushed out of the way so they can get to cover.

• 2:53:23Jocko Willink?

  The air was humming with aircraft, American Boeing B seventeen flying fortresses, and our guards quickened their step way ahead of us, periodically turning to beckon us to hurry it up. We entered the shelter, big enough for about a hundred people, and after a lot of pushing and shoving, settled among amid glares and remarks thrown our way, I was happy to let it happen, but somehow I'd been pushed and guided into a corner of the shelter away from the door. If a bomb lands too near that, the Germans take it blast, take the blast and cushion any effect on us, I thought. There was a wooden bench fixed to the wall, I dropped to it exhausted, three guards had spread out between us and other occupants, and when the bombing started in earnest, the shelter shook.

• 2:54:04Jocko Willink?

  I was sure one had landed close outside because I felt its draft reminding me of being blown off my feet in North Africa, only that time it was just fifty feet away. Everyone fell silent as the drone of aircraft and wind and crash of bombs went on with ever increasing ferocity for a good hour before dying down to a steady drumming and an occasional distant explosion. I must admit, I always think of these bombing runs as taking like, maybe ten minutes, but we're talking about a good hour.

• 2:54:40Jocko Willink?

  People began to chatter, this is once everything's kind of faded. People began to chatter as interfeared dispersed and external bravado took over. I could hear the gnashing of teeth. Glances accompanying finger pointing in our direction. The crowd was getting restive and a big man started pouring forth with words of abuse.

• 2:55:01Jocko Willink?

  A big Frau about forty years old worked her way nearer to us until she was only a couple of feet away. I felt the moisture of her spittle as she argued with the guards about the privilege we had being allowed to be in the same shelter as the German people. I gathered that that was the crux of the matter, that was the crux of the matter. At this point, a heavy booted foot came out and started propelling my way. I parried firmly with my right hand and the boot just brushed my balls. Coming to a harmless glancing blow on my left thigh. The guard stood firm restraining the woman and trying to calm everyone down. It was only then that I noticed

• 2:55:37Jocko Willink?

  a familiar sound in French.

• 2:55:40Jocko Willink?

  Our guards were Frenchmen conscripted in the German army. Anyway, they saved my nuts from being cracked.

• 2:55:49Jocko Willink?

  There must have been another hour's wait at the station, so now they're back, uh, gonna transfer again. There must have been another hour's wait at the station until I, an old army type lorry with solid tires turned up. Oh, sorry, they were waiting for a truck. I couldn't care less at this stage, provided I didn't have to hobble on crutches. Before long, I saw the large POW camp ahead with its eight-foot high wire fences and guards platforms sticking up like sore thumbs all around. There was a collection of dingy-looking huts dotting the interior. The lorry slowed at the gate and the senior guard jumped down through the handing over, to go through the handing over ceremony. Then the big wood and wire gates creaked open and the lorry jerked into the compound where out we tumbled.

• 2:56:35Jocko Willink?

  I was exhausted and sweating as if I'd just come out of a Turkish bath. My stump was throbbing. I stayed lying on the ground where I landed, managing to support myself on one elbow, while the rest of the party sat, knelt, or remained standing with the aid of their crutches. I didn't want a welcoming committee, but wished that someone would show us where to go. One of the guards was busy having a chat and laughed with his mate. Eventually, he gave us the go-ahead and the party moved off slowly and wearily. I found myself left behind. I tried to get up, but I could not muster enough strength to make it. So I started crawling, dragging the crutches. I'd only managed five or six yards when I heard voices and saw two pairs of gated boots. "Come, come on, me old mate," a voice said, "we'll give you a lift."

• 2:57:18Jocko Willink?

  On which they lifted me with ease and carried me I don't know how far. I didn't even get a glimpse of their faces to say "thanks."

• 2:57:28Jocko Willink?

  Sinking down onto a straw mattress, I just slept and slept for the next two days. When I awoke, I found that I was in Stalag X1B in Saxony, along with a large number of other airborne men. It was not long before I contracted more complaints to add to my already sorry condition. Lys and bugs were in abundance in my hut. The nights were the worst. The iron stove was stoked right up at night and the heat was awful with all the doors and windows shut tight. Urine buckets would fill to the brim in no time, making the stench nauseous. I went down with dysentery, plurisy, and scarlet fever, which together with my amputation, meant that I did not feel all that good.

• 2:58:13Jocko Willink?

  Reg is hard as nails. If I had wanted to die, I would have. But fortunately, that didn't enter my head.

• 2:58:25Jocko Willink?

  Little keynote. As I read that, I thought, hmm, let's think about that.

• 2:58:33Jocko Willink?

  If you want to die, if you want to give up, there's the time. But luckily, fortunately for him, that thought did not enter his head. After a short time, promising news. Again, I'm jumping ahead, like this is, we're talking, every little thing that he just talked about is a nightmare. And he's got them all at the same time.

• 2:58:54Jocko Willink?

  It's been a while since we talked about lice on the podcast.

• 2:58:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:58Jocko Willink?

  We've been missing out on that one.

• 2:59:02Jocko Willink?

  We think lice is no big deal because your kid gets it and then you get some special little medicine from the store and then you put it in their hair or you shave their head and, and either way, problem solved. These guys are got it. And there's no way to get rid of it.

• 2:59:20Jocko Willink?

  This is, by the way, while they've got dysentery and Plurzy and scarlet fever and an amputation.

• 2:59:30Jocko Willink?

  However, fast forward a little bit after a short time, promising news. I was told that I was going to be repatriated. I boarded yet another train. No sooner did we set off that there was a terrific whoosh and the train stopped in the middle of nowhere. I could hear the guttural tang twang of German civilians as they ran hell for leather on each side of the train to take cover from what must have been our own aircraft overhead. One of the guards just vamoose and left it to us. Looking down to the track, I saw that it was much too high for me to jump with only one leg. Though some of our party of eight jumped and took cover.

• 3:00:01Jocko Willink?

  I fouled my pants and don't know whether it was fright or the dysentery that was still with me. The planes returned. They were two rocket firing RAF typhoons which specialized in ground attack. I recognized the sound as they got nearer. There was another whoosh and then another, followed by an ear splitting explosion. The carriage shook so violently that I thought we were going to topple over. As always, in such a task, it was over in no time, with such a tax, it was over in no time and all was suddenly peaceful again.

• 3:00:33Jocko Willink?

  So they have to go and repair this train and then finally, we had reached a snug little village called Meisberg on the German side of the border with Belgium.

• 3:00:44Jocko Willink?

  And once again, we see some nicer treatment. Our first job was to be cleaned up and we were taken in pairs into the shower. I was asked to remove all personal items from my pockets and all clothing was to be cleaned and fumigated. "Don't worry, you'll get everything back," an English medic told me. "Here, put this on." It was a sort of cotton smock which tied in the back, was just long enough to cover to the knee. First in came a great big American with the same garb with forearms like tree branches. He lifted me bodily with the ease of Sampson himself. Mind you, I was down from fourteen stone to just over eight since last September, and to translate that into American English, he weighed 196 pounds in September and now he weighs 112.

• 3:01:33Jocko Willink?

  On reaching the shower, his mate asked, "Can you stand on one leg, bud?" "Sure," I said. Sampson had taken his smock off and proceeded to bathe me while Hercules steadied me. I was carried back to a most luxurious bed with white sheets. God knows where they scrounged the sheets, but trust the Yanks. There were approximately forty wounded there, a mixture of English, French, and American, with four American and two English orderlies. One of the walking wounded acted as a cook, all the others doing menial tasks. They did not mind, though. So, he's in this pretty... God, can I even say? Let's say, let's just say, "An improved situation." An improved situation is what he's in. That goes on a little bit.

• 3:02:19Jocko Willink?

  No, even he calls it "the luxury." Things began to liven up outside. The rumbling in the distance grew nearer and groups of bedraggled, weary-looking Germans plodded through the village. The wounded borne by horse and cart. Field guns were manhandled. The luxury of any motorized transport being afforded to senior officers only, who clearly wished to withdraw in as dignified a manner as possible, leaving Unter-officers to do all the donkey work along with the Schutzen and suffer all the humiliation of being seen by their own countrymen. It was a pathetic sight, like

• 3:02:59Jocko Willink?

  a cutting from the First World War film archives. As the dawn approached, the throb of motorized transport and tanks was very near. So he's seeing the Germans kind of walking back. He's seeing the officers in the vehicles, the German officers in the vehicles and the German troops walking or being carried if they were wounded. And here's tank activity, right? Which is kind of an indication when you hear tank activity, but you see people withdrawing with horses and carriages. That's an indication that perhaps the tanks that we're hearing are good friendlies.

• 3:03:37Jocko Willink?

  As dawn approached, the throb of motorized transport and the tanks was very near. You could hear the squeak of the tanks' wheels rubbing against the caterpillar track, thirsty for lubrication, edging and shunting into position for the impending advance in the village. That noise that a tank makes in the city is just, well, is awesome. And it's also horrifying. Like, these guys, when they were hearing the German tanks outside, when they're in that battle where they're about to be overrun, the horror, can't even imagine, of tanks coming. And now the joy, which I got to experience some of the joy in Ramadi of, hey, the tanks are coming. It's glorious. And God bless the tankers.

• 3:04:22Jocko Willink?

  And here, these guys feeling the same way. The American orderlies were jubilant. "They're here, Limey. The Yanks are here!" exploded Hank. Anyone who'd get up, walk, hop, or propel themselves in some way momentarily forgot their wounds and discomfort. They peered through the cracks in the doors, through the windows. "I could not see anything from my window, only the Nazi flag of the local garrison, hanging listless, like the enemy itself." Bill, one of the English medics, came dashing in, not knowing which way to turn in his excitement. "There's hundreds of them. There's hundreds of tanks out there. Bloody well, hundreds of them."

• 3:04:57Jocko Willink?

  Sherman tanks of General Patton's armored division had encircled the village in the early hours of that morning and were in a very advantageous position as we were in the valley and they were on the high ground. Every gun would have its own selected target with orders to open fire if fired upon. Thankfully, the tanks played a waiting game with the nonexistent enemy because unknown to the Americans, the birds had flown.

• 3:05:27Jocko Willink?

  An American scout car ventured cautiously toward the village. Unmolested, it reached the outskirts, scanning the buildings where white flags were protruding.

• 3:05:38Jocko Willink?

  No sign of the enemy. Still in view of the tanks on the hill, it became bolder and cruised gently into the village.

• 3:05:46Jocko Willink?

  Our makeshift hospital with a painted red cross on the roof must have been in view of the scout car now. All these goings on were being shouted by one of the medics in the passageway for the benefit of all those like me who could not see for themselves. So he's getting a play-by-play.

• 3:06:04Jocko Willink?

  The scout car came to a stop, its occupants clutching their automatics at the ready.

• 3:06:10Jocko Willink?

  They must have spotted someone stepped carefully into view. That person was a medic with a red cross armband. Hank, the orderly from Ohio. He was about 100 yards from the scout car and they stealthily approached each other. Hank not wishing to be mistaken for a German ruse, though in the scout car not wishing to fall for any trick. As they drew closer, the realization dawned that they were brothers.

• 3:06:40Jocko Willink?

  A wireless call was immediately sent to the tanks on the skyline and in minutes, the village was alive to their rumble as they thundered on through, leaving an acrid smell of oil and exhaust fumes.

• 3:06:56Jocko Willink?

  I was almost home.

• 3:07:04Jocko Willink?

  And you know, I got to that point in the book and I was like, well, that's, that's where you stop.

• 3:07:11Jocko Willink?

  And it's definitely a good place to stop, but

• 3:07:16Jocko Willink?

  let's, let's take that as a stop.

• 3:07:21Jocko Willink?

  That incredible glory of seeing the Americans, seeing Patton's armored division roll in

• 3:07:31Jocko Willink?

  and knowing that he was almost home.

• 3:07:36Jocko Willink?

  But there are some things to think about. And he covers them in the epilogue here. He says, "The casualties in the Arnhem area alone were 8,000 airborne killed, wounded, captured, or missing." Including Poles.

• 3:07:54Jocko Willink?

  Plus more than 400 RAF pilots and crew.

• 3:08:00Jocko Willink?

  There were 750 Dutch civilians and underground fighters killed. At least 2,500 Germans. And in the following winter of 1944 to 1945, some 200,000 Dutch died of starvation. So it's important to understand that these, you know, you see this through one man's eyes. But that thousands, in fact, hundreds of thousands were affected by this particular battle.

• 3:08:36Jocko Willink?

  And again, that might be a good place to stop, but there's another note here. He talks about several years later, "I visited the place of thinking," if you will, "of that great man and founder of the parachute regiment, Winston Churchill."

• 3:08:52Jocko Willink?

  "The war rooms, situated far below ground at the Treasury Chambers in Westminster."

• 3:09:00Jocko Willink?

  "The existence of these warren of rooms was a well-kept secret during the war years. The tour was fascinating. Everything remained exactly as it had been back then. I sat in Churchill's chair, in front of me on the desk, printed on a black card, printed in black on a card, the words of Queen Victoria.

• 3:09:21Jocko Willink?

  "In this house, we never speak of defeat."

• 3:09:31Jocko Willink?

  In this house, we never speak of defeat. And he goes on, "In the toilet, there was a red telephone, a direct line to President Roosevelt in Washington. In the visiting ministers' room, I opened a book entitled World War II on the Sicily landings and saw a training shot of members of my 11th SAS battalion. Two of the four in the lineup were Harry Bance, Corporal Hudson, Jimmy Metcalf, and myself.

• 3:10:12Jocko Willink?

  Down here beneath Westminster, I'm surrounded, I am sure, by a dedicated team. Churchill did his job extremely well.

• 3:10:22Jocko Willink?

  I would like to think that I did my best alongside other leopards, lions, and tigers of the First Parachute Brigade."

• 3:10:38Jocko Willink?

  And, again, I really didn't get into the fact that at some, at one point, their, their call signs, their code names, had been the leopards, lions, and tigers. That's what their, the different battalions were called.

• 3:10:56Jocko Willink?

  Could be a good place to stop, and I'm gonna go a little bit further. This is actually in the preface of this book, and he says, "When the war ended," because this is, he survived, he was home. "When the war ended, I found it a little difficult initially, knuckling down to civilian life. The letter from the government saying, 'You are now a civilian,' seemed so sudden."

• 3:11:24Jocko Willink?

  I couldn't face the prospect of an office job, so I tried manufacturing, making handbags, before joining my brother-in-law John in his landscape gardening business, and then branching out on my own in the same line of work.

• 3:11:39Jocko Willink?

  Having an artificial leg didn't help, but I didn't let it hinder me. And the limb fitting center at Gillingham kindly reinforced my artificial knee for kneeling several times.

• 3:11:53Jocko Willink?

  I got a BSA motorbike and sidecar, and had the gears modified to operate by hand instead of foot.

• 3:12:04Jocko Willink?

  I built my own house.

• 3:12:09Jocko Willink?

  You do the best you can.

• 3:12:16Jocko Willink?

  Again, I mean, hey, found it a little rough, but guess what? I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to work, I'm gonna start a business, I'm gonna build a house, I'm gonna drive a motorbike around the country with a sidecar.

• 3:12:34Jocko Willink?

  You do the best you can.

• 3:12:43Jocko Willink?

  And I also wanted to say that he wasn't alone, he obviously needed that sidecar for someone. And I'm quite sure that that was one of the dedications of the book, is for Betty Francis, Reg's wife.

• 3:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Who, who, as he puts it, "helped me so much."

• 3:13:07Jocko Willink?

  And the last thing I'll say, and the last thing I'll read from this book, I should say, is the dedication.

• 3:13:30Jocko Willink?

  And he says, "I dedicate this book to all my airborne friends who never came back, whose actions made it possible for me and other airborne friends to enjoy over 70 years of living." And that is... Well, that's the parts I'm gonna read from this book, but um...

• 3:14:07Jocko Willink?

  Reg Curtis died on January 29th, 2016, 94 years old. He was the last surviving member of the original first parachute battalion, the last of those initial 500 men that took that step forward and volunteered for parachute and commando training in 1940. And the book, the book which is called "The Memory Endures," the book, it's actually not available on Amazon, it's not available in bookstores. I actually got it.

• 3:14:51Jocko Willink?

  I got it from somebody that, that sent it to me. And with no inscription in it, it says, he sent me a note, it says, "Dear Jaco, keep up the great work, best wishes." I believe it says Rick or Rich. So, that's where I got the book from. Luckily, it was sent to me. I wouldn't have known about it otherwise. If you want to get this book, which you should, it's available from pilotspublishing.co.uk and there's also a Facebook page, thememory, facebook.com/thememoryendures.

• 3:15:31Jocko Willink?

  And as it says in the book, "The author's royalties in respect of this book will be donated to the parachute regiment charity."

• 3:15:47Jocko Willink?

  And there you go. Another hero, teaching us the sacred lesson that we must never forget that life is a gift. And as Reg Curtis tells us, what you do with that is you do the best you can. You do the best that you can. And with that echo, Echo Charles, as I decompressed over here a little bit, maybe you've

• 3:16:28Jocko Willink?

  got some ideas of how, how we can be the best we can.

• 3:16:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:16:35Jocko Willink?

  What do you got for us?

• 3:16:37Speaker 01

  I, one of the many things that I took was, I don't know if it was his attitude, or if that's the culture, or both, you know, could be a bit better. And that was the other guy, right? Who was like, could be a bit better.

• 3:16:55Jocko Willink?

  We can do a bit better.

• 3:16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, on these terrible conditions, right? Could be a bit better.

• 3:17:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, oh, you're talking about the guy that says, not too bad, not too bad? Could be better.

• 3:17:07Speaker 01

  Could be a bit better, yeah. So, you know, like I said, probably, probably both, right? Attitude plus culture. The attitude, right? On things, when you go through adversity, you can have that attitude.

• 3:17:22Jocko Willink?

  Not too bad, not too bad, could be better.

• 3:17:23Speaker 01

  Could be better.

• 3:17:24Jocko Willink?

  Hey, we're about to get overrun, and there's a strong possibility we're gonna get killed.

• 3:17:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:17:30Jocko Willink?

  Not too bad, not too bad, could be better.

• 3:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, could be better.

• 3:17:33Jocko Willink?

  There's a little positive thought pattern there.

• 3:17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's kinda like, well, it's really a good news, bad news, you know?

• 3:17:37Jocko Willink?

  It's also a realistic view, right?

• 3:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:41Jocko Willink?

  Hey, I'm still walking. Hey, I still got ammunition.

• 3:17:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:17:44Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, it's not, not too bad means we don't have to do anything. Could be better, though.

• 3:17:48Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:17:49Jocko Willink?

  Maybe there's some things we can work on.

• 3:17:50Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, well, I forget what movie it was when he's like, I got good news and bad. I think it might have been Tango and Cash. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But anyway, he said, I got good news and bad news. He goes, what's the bad news? We're almost, almost out of gas. And he's like, well, what's the good news? We're almost out of gas. See what I'm saying? So it's the attitude, really.

• 3:18:11Jocko Willink?

  Good, man.

• 3:18:11Speaker 01

  So just, anyway, speaking of attitudes, good and bad. What we're doing, one of the many things, is jujitsu. Okay, so that's a really good news, bad news scenario as well.

• 3:18:21Jocko Willink?

  Really? What's the bad news?

• 3:18:22Speaker 01

  Bad news is you're gonna get choked from time to time. I know this firsthand.

• 3:18:30Speaker 01

  That's, that's the bad news. But the good news is you are exposed to an environment that will teach you how to choke others if the need may arise.

• 3:18:44Jocko Willink?

  Good.

• 3:18:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:18:46Jocko Willink?

  So, good news is you're getting choked. Oh, sorry. Bad news is you're getting choked. The good news is you're getting choked, which means you're learning how to defend, also choke other people.

• 3:18:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:18:56Jocko Willink?

  So, okay.

• 3:18:56Speaker 01

  Repetitively. Well, that could be good or bad news, whatever. So it's a matter of your, uh, attitude. Really?

• 3:19:03Jocko Willink?

  How is your attitude lately on getting choked?

• 3:19:05Speaker 01

  A lot of learning, um, you know, a lot of learning. Uh, what do you call it when you relearn something? You know?

• 3:19:12Jocko Willink?

  Lessons learned, repetitive.

• 3:19:14Speaker 01

  Repetitive.

• 3:19:15Jocko Willink?

  Iterative learning sessions.

• 3:19:16Speaker 01

  Hey, it's not an inoculation. You know, it's repetitive. Well, it is. It's both.

• 3:19:20Jocko Willink?

  Imagine that. You get choked one time and you'll never get choked again? Nope.

• 3:19:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:19:23Jocko Willink?

  That's not the way it works with the jujitsu. So we are, it sounds like jujitsu, even though there's a negative possible thing, right? But it's not too bad. Not too bad. Could be better.

• 3:19:35Speaker 01

  Could be better, yeah.

• 3:19:36Jocko Willink?

  If you train it.

• 3:19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:19:37Jocko Willink?

  Start training.

• 3:19:38Speaker 01

  The more you train, the better you get. So there you go. Anyway, while we're training, we're gonna need a gi, cuz you're gonna do gi. What do you do? Not do gi? Well, I guess that's possible, but okay, how about this?

• 3:19:47Jocko Willink?

  Not recommended.

• 3:19:48Speaker 01

  No, not recommended.

• 3:19:49Jocko Willink?

  Are you gonna fight people all the time that are just wearing shorts?

• 3:19:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 3:19:53Jocko Willink?

  No. What if you get in a street fight? Okay, if you get in a street fight at the beach, maybe. What if you get a street fight at the supermarket?

• 3:20:01Speaker 01

  With the guy with the jean jacket on.

• 3:20:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, somebody's.

• 3:20:03Speaker 01

  Something like this.

• 3:20:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:20:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:20:05Jocko Willink?

  Somebody's taking the last, you know.

• 3:20:07Speaker 01

  And and really, that's like, that's the last one.

• 3:20:10Jocko Willink?

  I don't know.

• 3:20:10Speaker 01

  Broccoli or something.

• 3:20:11Jocko Willink?

  Last piece of broccoli.

• 3:20:12Speaker 01

  You don't like that. You gotta fight him for it. Something like this. But that's even just one of the actually teeny tiny way of looking at it. Where it's like, okay.

• 3:20:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, I see what you're saying.

• 3:20:21Speaker 01

  Because the chances of you getting in an actual fight are pretty low. If you have a, you know, if you're smart about it.

• 3:20:27Jocko Willink?

  No, that's a good point.

• 3:20:28Speaker 01

  Not to say that you shouldn't, you know, I'm not saying that, but they're pretty low. Is what I'm saying.

• 3:20:33Jocko Willink?

  And especially if you're gonna avoid actively avoid getting into a fight.

• 3:20:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:20:36Jocko Willink?

  If you're smart.

• 3:20:37Speaker 01

  If you're smart, yes.

• 3:20:38Jocko Willink?

  The problem is you can't always avoid it.

• 3:20:40Speaker 01

  No, you can't.

• 3:20:40Jocko Willink?

  There may be a situation, and here's the deal. If you are forced into a situation that where you have to defend yourself and you don't know how, the result is catastrophic.

• 3:20:50Speaker 01

  Huge, yeah.

• 3:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Catastrophic. We, why, why have that catastrophic possibility? Here's the deal. If that's the only reason you were training jujitsu, if that was the only reason, it would be worth it. If that was the only reason, here's the deal. You're, that's not the only reason. There's a thousand other reasons. There's, there's an infinite more reasons, right? You're gonna get in better conditioning. You're gonna get mental stimulus. You're gonna meet other human beings. You're gonna develop relationships and have friends. You're going to think, you're gonna develop discipline in your life, right? This is a long list. I mean, this goes on. So even if the only thing you were gonna get was just you learn how to defend yourself. Totally worth it.

• 3:21:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, not only are you gonna get to defend yourself, you're gonna be able to get these other collateral bonus things. Which, by the way, some people, in order to work their cardiovascular system, they're riding a spin bike somewhere.

• 3:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:21:48Jocko Willink?

  Someone else, in order to work their flexibility, is doing a yoga class. Someone else, in order to work their strength, is lifting some weights. I'm not saying, no, I'm not saying you don't do all those things. But I'm saying you can get all three of them. Like a little, a little hitter of all three of them. No problem. Get on the jujitsu mats.

• 3:22:06Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:22:07Jocko Willink?

  Gee, no gee. Both of them.

• 3:22:10Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, yes. But if you're, if you're doing gi only because someone on the street might be wearing certain types of clothes.

• 3:22:19Jocko Willink?

  Exactly.

• 3:22:20Speaker 01

  There's a lot more.

• 3:22:21Jocko Willink?

  Same exact, same exact point I just made.

• 3:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:22:24Jocko Willink?

  If you're only, if you only gonna do gi because of that, it's worth it. But there's all these other beneficial things.

• 3:22:30Speaker 01

  Yes. And I'll tell you this right now, really the number one thing that'll keep you in jujitsu, doing it, the number one thing, and it's maybe even by far for most people, is that it's fun.

• 3:22:41Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say fun.

• 3:22:41Speaker 01

  Straight up.

• 3:22:42Jocko Willink?

  I hope we're aligned on this.

• 3:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope. It's true. Because look, think about it. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do jujitsu for self-defense. Oh, yeah.

• 3:22:51Jocko Willink?

  That's where everyone starts. When I started, when I started jujitsu, me, when I started, I was like, hey, I'm just gonna get good enough, you know, so I can, so I can handle myself. Which is like, it's about a six-month period. About six months, you know, if you're an aggressive guy, and you, you're a good athlete, or strong, or whatever, six months, you're pretty good to go, right? Six months of jujitsu, you know what's up. It's been twenty, whatever, years.

• 3:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so, oh, yeah, don't, I mean, and if you tap someone out, try the first time, the first time you tap someone out, then say like, oh, yeah, that's

• 3:23:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's, I made, I made that up, by the way. You're trying to impinge on my, my, uh, statement?

• 3:23:29Speaker 01

  Well, you might have made up saying that, maybe bringing it to light, but the fact is true.

• 3:23:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, so you're saying that I only quoted like, uh, like a universal truth?

• 3:23:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, self-evident.

• 3:23:41Jocko Willink?

  I don't know, man, because people used to ask, how long should I train for? Or, no, I mean, we got the question on the podcast. How long should I, I really don't like it? And the answer was, at first, like, well, you should try it for six months, oh, three months, whatever. No, no, no. You train until you, you tap someone out. I don't want to use the term in anger, but you tap someone out for real in a jujitsu training environment.

• 3:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:24:02Jocko Willink?

  And then you're good.

• 3:24:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're right. That was, that was a specific answer. So, yeah, that is yours. Okay.

• 3:24:07Jocko Willink?

  Okay. I'm just making sure, because I'm over here wanting full credit.

• 3:24:11Speaker 01

  Nonetheless, if you're training it just for self-

• 3:24:13Jocko Willink?

  If you would have said it in not such a, such a way, like the way you said it, man, you thought you, you said it as if you just created like E equals mc squared over there. You're like, you should train until you, you were looking down your nose at me as you said it as if. So I had to call you out on that one. There, my little bro, Zinho.

• 3:24:32Speaker 01

  All good. I was just remembering the other day, Kurt, well, the Australian guy that came, came Kurt, is his name?

• 3:24:38Jocko Willink?

  Kurt, yeah.

• 3:24:38Speaker 01

  His name, yeah, so.

• 3:24:39Jocko Willink?

  Young Kurt.

• 3:24:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I asked him, I was like, how long have you been training? He said like a month or something. It's like some kind of, kind of new or really new. And so I said, have you tapped in and went out yet? And he said, yes. So I'm like, oh, this guy's in the game I knew already, you know? So maybe I kind of drew from that recent experience to, you know, to kind of say it. But nonetheless, like I was saying, if you train only for self-defense, only for self-defense, not because it's fun, not because it's a good workout, not because you got a bunch of new friends, not because all this stuff. Only for self-defense. After a while, not even a long while, after a short while, you can be like, bruh, like, I don't even know I'm doing it. Like, bruh, I'm not even, I'm not using it to defend myself, really.

• 3:25:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:25:18Speaker 01

  You know, because those are kind of rare, you know? Then you might not do it, you know, especially if it's not fun. So, there you go. Fun. People, like, there are people who train jiu-jitsu for decades, literally decades, that have never gotten a fight before, never got in a street fight, never got in a, like, a physical fight. So it's like, yeah, are they training for self-defense? Yeah, sure, of course. But-

• 3:25:38Jocko Willink?

  That's not why-

• 3:25:39Speaker 01

  That's not why they're in the game. Yeah, exactly, right. So nonetheless, when we do it, like I said, do the gi, that's gonna be one of it. The other, the other part's no gi. When you do get a gi, you get an origin gi.

• 3:25:49Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 3:25:51Speaker 01

  100%. Best gi's by far, factually.

• 3:25:54Jocko Willink?

  Now, same type of thing, if you're gonna get an origin gi just because you want the best gi, that's goo- that's a goo- that's a good reason. Like, that's solid, right?

• 3:26:05Speaker 01

  It's my reason.

• 3:26:06Jocko Willink?

  If you peel back the layer a little bit and you want to find out what else you're gonna get, well, guess what else you're gonna get? You're gonna get the fact that you are literally rebuilding an industry and a community.

• 3:26:19Jocko Willink?

  And an economy inside of America. You know, that's a little, that's not even a little bonus. Like there's some people that would look at that and say, I'm gonna buy an origin just because of that.

• 3:26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then if I even do jujitsu, that's sort of secondary, see what I'm saying? I could dig it.

• 3:26:35Jocko Willink?

  Now, if you're feeling it, let's say you're feeling it, you're feeling that part. You're feeling like America, you're feeling the economy, you're feeling the community, you're feeling the industry. You're gonna bring it back, you're gonna help, but you still haven't gotten over the hump of showing up at jujitsu school. But you still wanna support. It's okay, it's. We'll say a step in the right direction. We, we have genes that you can get, right? You can get genes. You're still gonna help those other three. I would prefer the first thing that you get. In all seriousness, the first thing I would prefer you get is a gi. Cause that tells me you're gonna go get on the map. If you, if you, cause so many people, and you know what?

• 3:27:19Jocko Willink?

  Everybody, well, you know what 99% of people say when they finally start jujitsu? I wish I would have started, well, you know, when I first this, but you know? That's what people say. Tell you this, I'm meeting people now that are purple belts that started jujitsu when they started listening to this podcast. So we're about probably three to four years away from having somebody that started jujitsu, listening to this podcast will be a black belt. In jujitsu, which is an awesome achievement. Here's the thing. There's also people that will say, I started listening to the podcast and three years went by before I started. You could have been a purple belt. Don't wait, I'm telling you right now, like, I'm telling you right now, start jujitsu. Emphatically telling you that.

• 3:28:04Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, we touched on a little, uh, kind of combatives, hand to hand combat in this book. And there's a whole line of, a whole, um, thread we can pull on that and we will at some point. The, the, the British combatives program, World War II, very cool. I'll, I've done, I've read a bunch about it and we'll, we'll dig into it here, cause it's pretty awesome. What the way they were doing things, their concepts, et cetera. But. If they were alive today, they'd be learning the jujitsu.

• 3:28:38Speaker 01

  Jujitsu all day. Yeah.

• 3:28:41Jocko Willink?

  And, and they'd be getting American gees, even from England. They'd be like, you know what? Those, those Yanks, get the Yanks, get yourself a Yankee gee.

• 3:28:49Speaker 01

  Right. Cause again, really the primary reason is because it's factually the best one. See what I'm saying? Yeah. Same thing for jeans where I would say since I got my pair of Origin jeans, which is like a while ago, when you think about it, when they came out, it's a while ago. I have not worn any other jeans ever.

• 3:29:08Jocko Willink?

  No. Yeah. Why would you, why would you do that?

• 3:29:11Speaker 01

  No reason.

• 3:29:12Jocko Willink?

  There's not even a reason to do that.

• 3:29:13Speaker 01

  No reason. I only have one pair too. Or no, I don't have three, but nonetheless, that's the only ones I wear. Also, we have other stuff here at Origin.

• 3:29:22Jocko Willink?

  We do.

• 3:29:23Speaker 01

  So yeah, joggers, you know, more athletic wear, all kinds of good stuff. You go to originmaine.com, Maine, like the state. Also supplements, keep yourself in the game.

• 3:29:34Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:29:35Speaker 01

  Propel yourself further down the path.

• 3:29:38Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 3:29:38Speaker 01

  As it were.

• 3:29:39Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Um, get yourself joint warfare and krill oil out of the gate. Once again, and I feel bad because I did this on social media where the guy was like, hey, what can I do to help? And I was, I, I, I didn't want to be that guy that was like, well, you know, here, try my supplement line. You know, I, I just don't, I just don't want to be that guy.

• 3:29:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:30:00Jocko Willink?

  And then later I felt bad. I was like, I should have just been straight up and said, hey, listen, man, do whatever you want to do, get yourself some krill oil and joint warfare immediately. Order that. Oh, what? You're 36 years old and you feeling sore in your joints and you're at, the guy was literally asking me how my joints and I was, and I didn't say it. Cause I don't want to be that guy.

• 3:30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Right now I'm being that guy. You know what guy I'm being? The guy that's actually trying to help people. Cause I didn't help that guy as much as I could have. I should have said, listen, do what I, you know, be consistent. Don't take big chunks of time off. Order krill oil and oil joint warfare right now. That's what you have to do. That's my recommendation. I feel bad for not doing that. I will try not to make that mistake again.

• 3:30:41Speaker 01

  No, I had the same experience. I went on with Pete and Brian on Hens in Daylight.

• 3:30:46Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:30:47Speaker 01

  I had an episode with them recently and he was, and Pete was saying, oh yeah, you're like durable. Cause I don't have like ailments, you know, Pete's jammed up his back and he's just like, you know, we're, I'm older than him actually. And he's like, oh yeah, you're durable, you know? And I was like, Yeah, I mean, cuz I never thought I was durable at all like.

• 3:31:06Jocko Willink?

  Especially being hanging out with me.

• 3:31:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Thought I was pretty fragile, to be honest with you.

• 3:31:13Jocko Willink?

  You guys might cuz you know what Pete said to me like when he was just out here? He was like, you're, he told me I was durable.

• 3:31:19Speaker 01

  Well, you are durable.

• 3:31:20Jocko Willink?

  I figured that you guys had that conversation cuz I said that's what Echo told me one time. And you told me, when you told me that, it had been like, it, when you told it to me, it had been like you had been contemplating it for quite some time. You were like, you know what I figured out about you? And I was like, what? And you said you're durable.

• 3:31:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, like a tank.

• 3:31:35Jocko Willink?

  I was like, hmm, that's interesting. And I had to kind of agree with it.

• 3:31:38Speaker 01

  Yes. And so he said that I was durable. And I was like, well, and we even said, no, Jaco's durable. I don't, and then, but then I guess I'm in a way, yeah, I guess I am.

• 3:31:47Jocko Willink?

  You are. You've bounced back from some pretty significant, you know, knee, well, how many knee surgeries you got?

• 3:31:52Speaker 01

  I had one knee surgery, but a few knee injuries, plus my loose knees. I know, I know, I know. Anyway, they're loose for real.

• 3:32:02Speaker 01

  Anyway, so they pop out all the time is what I'm saying, that, you know, and they'll get swollen up.

• 3:32:06Jocko Willink?

  Why don't you do squats?

• 3:32:06Speaker 01

  I do. And how's this? I do do squats. And actually now I go deep, like all the way down like you.

• 3:32:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 3:32:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's the routine.

• 3:32:15Jocko Willink?

  And how's that feeling? Tighter?

• 3:32:16Speaker 01

  No, no, great. I mean, same. No, they still pop out in jujitsu. Like when I do butterfly, anyway, as long as it doesn't matter, they're loose clinically. The doctor, orthopedic surgeon told me that. Anyway, they pop out. So anyway, I don't feel.

• 3:32:32Speaker 01

  You're like, anyway, given the circumstance, yeah, I guess I am pretty durable. But anyway, the point is, we're talking about this stuff and then, like, I'm like saying, like, oh, yeah, plus I don't take time out and then I'm, and I'm naturally going into plus to take joint warfare, acrylic oil every day, like religiously, you know, so it's basically the point was to, to, to say you gotta, like actively be durable, you know, kind of thing.

• 3:32:55Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's a good point. It's not like purely genetic, apparently.

• 3:32:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 3:32:58Jocko Willink?

  Increase your durability. Also, we got other stuff. We got Discipline Go in a can, which is just awesome. It's awesome. No sugar.

• 3:33:10Jocko Willink?

  It tastes delicious. It has some caffeine in it. It has, let me, it's got some other things in it, but it's got a little kick that goes with it. Same with the discipline powder, which is what I drink pretty much all the time. It's almost, it doesn't have too much caffeine in the, in the discipline powder. It's got like 15 milligrams a scoop, which is not crazy at all. It's a microdose. Even if you have two scoops. What's that 30 mil, you know, 45 milligrams for three scoops? It's not that big of a deal, but tastes delicious, has some other ingredients that give you a little, give you a little kick. And then of course, milk.

• 3:33:48Speaker 01

  Yes. Protein in the form of a dessert. For adults and kids, even though it's like, sure, the kids are gonna drink the regular milk and let's face it, the adults gonna drink the warrior kid milk as well.

• 3:34:02Jocko Willink?

  So much warrior kid milk. I'm surprised I haven't turned, gone down in age, bro.

• 3:34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. The last, those are there too, so.

• 3:34:12Jocko Willink?

  And they taste insane. That's the thing. So that's that. Also Jaco Whitey. And by the way, right now, this, all this, all these supplements that you might wanna try are available at the vitamin shop nationwide. And everyone that's been going out and buying stuff there, it's pretty cool. Appreciate it. They're like, hey, everything's selling out. And we're like, yeah, get more people. People are in the game across the board. Originmain.com.

• 3:34:44Speaker 01

  Get some.

• 3:34:45Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 3:34:46Speaker 01

  Also, again, reminder, if you're gonna get this book.

• 3:34:50Jocko Willink?

  You can't get this book on Amazon.

• 3:34:51Speaker 01

  Get it on Amazon. You have to go to pilotspublishing.co.uk.

• 3:34:57Speaker 01

  Go to the facebook.com/the memory endures. Also, Jaco has a store. It's called Jaco's Store and this is where you can get the gear. I don't really use the word gear that much, but I'm gonna use it. The gear, t-shirts, rash guards, hoodies, hats, that kind of stuff to represent the path. Gear. Discipline equals freedom. Good. Take the high ground or the high ground will take you.

• 3:35:23Speaker 01

  etc. Unless you want to represent while you're on the path, that's where you do it. Jaco store.com.

• 3:35:29Jocko Willink?

  Also subscribe to this podcast if you haven't yet is if there's a possibility that you've listened to 500 hours and you've been like, well, I'm not quite sure yet. I'm, I'm asking that you just, you know, go for it. Just, just get crazy.

• 3:35:46Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, it's crazy, man.

• 3:35:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and subscribe. I don't even know why someone would not subscribe.

• 3:35:52Speaker 01

  You know, just trying it out. I guess, you know, in the beginning, it makes sense.

• 3:35:56Jocko Willink?

  If you also want to leave a review, some people leave really good reviews and by good reviews, I don't mean, hey, it's a great podcast. I really like the insight that, no, I mean, I mean, reviews that are, let's just say there's, they've got layers.

• 3:36:10Speaker 01

  Layers, fun, colorful.

• 3:36:12Jocko Willink?

  Colorful. They make me laugh. They make me chuckle.

• 3:36:15Speaker 01

  Yes, sir. And don't forget about the grounded podcast.

• 3:36:18Jocko Willink?

  So shines.

• 3:36:21Jocko Willink?

  A good deed in a weary world.

• 3:36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sorry, I don't know. I don't know what that.

• 3:36:28Jocko Willink?

  Maybe you haven't seen, uh, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory lately.

• 3:36:32Speaker 01

  No, I, to be, I don't think I've seen that one, any of them. I saw part of the Johnny Depp one.

• 3:36:37Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 3:36:38Speaker 01

  Part of it.

• 3:36:38Jocko Willink?

  Foul.

• 3:36:39Speaker 01

  Well.

• 3:36:40Jocko Willink?

  Foul, wrong. You gotta watch the original one. It's awesome. It's a great movie.

• 3:36:44Speaker 01

  All right. Well, interesting. That's interesting. Jaco, you heard it. Jaco.

• 3:36:50Jocko Willink?

  Watch that movie.

• 3:36:51Speaker 01

  Said Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is an awesome.

• 3:36:53Jocko Willink?

  Yes, it is an awesome movie.

• 3:36:55Speaker 01

  Okay. Oh, all right. Hey man, maybe I'll look into it. Maybe, maybe not. I'll report back. Nonetheless, grounded podcasts.

• 3:37:04Jocko Willink?

  I mean, I'm over here throwing out quotes from the movie, right? We're doing Shakespeare. We're doing, we're doing the memory endures, but we're also throwing out some Willy Wonka.

• 3:37:14Jocko Willink?

  Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

• 3:37:15Speaker 01

  Right, sure. All right. Well, there you go. It will make sense. Anyway, like I was saying, grounded podcast is a podcast about life. Jiu Jitsu, life, life, Jiu Jitsu, Jiu Jitsu is infused into life, or is life infused into Jiu Jitsu?

• 3:37:31Jocko Willink?

  Both, but more important, I think, life is reflective of Jiu Jitsu, and Jiu Jitsu is reflective of life. So if you can learn from one, you will learn about both, which is important.

• 3:37:41Speaker 01

  It's true. Not quite as often as Jocko Podcast, but it's out there. So.

• 3:37:47Jocko Willink?

  Which is weird, because it's like really hard to make this podcast, and it's really easy to make a grounded one. But you know what we do? We do the hard things.

• 3:37:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:37:54Jocko Willink?

  That's what we focus on.

• 3:37:55Speaker 01

  Prioritize, prioritize, and what is the second part?

• 3:38:00Jocko Willink?

  He almost just got a knife in the throat, bro.

• 3:38:02Speaker 01

  Warrior Kid Podcast, which is a good one for the young trooper warrior kids.

• 3:38:10Jocko Willink?

  And don't be shy if you're a parent to listen, because you're gonna learn. I wish I would have had that podcast as a parent when my kids were young.

• 3:38:17Speaker 01

  Actually, in a way, it's a parent podcast.

• 3:38:19Jocko Willink?

  It is, it is. It is.

• 3:38:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you know, like, you know how like, when you, when you hear of like, certain people's childhoods, or whatever, like, certain, like, people who are like, successful in X, Y, Z, whether it be athletes, whatever, right? And you learn about their childhood, you probably, you could probably learn some solid stuff, like, oh, I just, just that one little thing, let me, let me try to, you know, start incorporating that. Yeah, yeah, so the Warrior Kid Podcast, it's all in there.

• 3:38:44Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Uh, speaking of warrior kids, don't forget about the Warrior Kid Soap at IrishOaksRanch.com, and actually, right now, live, live, is a new, hmm, what's it, model? What's it called? A new?

• 3:38:59Speaker 01

  Sure, model. It's not flavor, because you don't eat it or whatever, the new, uh.

• 3:39:03Jocko Willink?

  It's a new.

• 3:39:06Speaker 01

  Scent. No, it's not a scent.

• 3:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Come on.

• 3:39:09Speaker 01

  I'm thinking of regular soap, so, you know, like, I don't know, what do they say, new?

• 3:39:12Jocko Willink?

  It's a new version. We have a new model, a new version of soap. You, you actually have to check it out, because it's so legit. It's called, well, what it does, let me, what it does is it's got some antimicrobial.

• 3:39:29Speaker 01

  Microbial.

• 3:39:30Jocko Willink?

  Antimicrobial.

• 3:39:32Speaker 01

  I think, I think that's what you said.

• 3:39:34Jocko Willink?

  It's got some anti-fungal, natural elements to it. One of those elements is, like, it's got, like, T-trial, it's got activated charcoal. And what's cool, so this is what's cool. So first of all, the soap is called Killer Soap. That's the name of the soap, but what, but what it's, it couldn't be any more perfect. Cause it is because of the charcoal, it's black.

• 3:39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:39:58Jocko Willink?

  So it's black and it's awesome.

• 3:40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:02Jocko Willink?

  So get yourself some killer soap from Irish Oaks Ranch.com. And by the way, this is a kid that's making it. A kid that started a company and pitched me, you know how much stuff I get pitched? I get pitched stuff five times a day. I get pitched something, this, that, and the other. This kid pitched me, but you know, he pitched me, he's like, hey, I'm already rolling.

• 3:40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:22Jocko Willink?

  You know, I'm already rolling. I'm already making soap. By the way, I'm 10 and I've got a soap production line. And I've got vertical integration. I mean, he was getting after it.

• 3:40:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:34Jocko Willink?

  So when young Aiden pitched me, pitched me. And of course he didn't even pitch me by, oh, can you help? No, he was like, I want you to know what I'm doing. There are openings. If you would like to get a piece.

• 3:40:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 3:40:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm like, hmm. And you invest in the people, right?

• 3:40:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:40:50Jocko Willink?

  I'm looking at a kid that's 10 years old, that's sending a business plan, that's sending samples. What do you like? So anyways, we went deep to cover the grappling and just the, look, there's nasty things in the world. And if you want to, you can get some killer soap. And that will help you as a person inside and out.

• 3:41:14Jocko Willink?

  To stay clean.

• 3:41:16Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good logo too.

• 3:41:18Jocko Willink?

  Are we just making everyone suffer through our own little inside jokes and everyone goes, good lord, please just stop.

• 3:41:23Speaker 01

  It's true. It's all true. So you can't even be mad. So yes, Irish Oaks Ranch.com. That's where you get it. And as Jock said, you know, hey, stay clean, man. Right? Anyway, YouTube channel as well. Jock Podcast does have a YouTube channel. So you can get the video version and also excerpts and stuff like that. Some enhanced videos, varying levels of acceptance and.

• 3:41:46Jocko Willink?

  Varying levels of enhancement. From like.

• 3:41:49Speaker 01

  From people. So anyway, yeah. So YouTube channel, subscribe to that if you want. And smash the like button. I said it.

• 3:41:59Jocko Willink?

  I said it.

• 3:41:59Speaker 01

  I said it.

• 3:42:00Jocko Willink?

  You can you.

• 3:42:01Speaker 01

  Edit that out. Maybe.

• 3:42:04Jocko Willink?

  How many times was that funny? I don't know, but it wasn't more than 29.

• 3:42:10Speaker 01

  It's only funny when you say it, because it's so.

• 3:42:12Jocko Willink?

  I don't, I can't even say it anymore.

• 3:42:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:42:14Jocko Willink?

  Because it's it's worn out, bro.

• 3:42:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 3:42:17Jocko Willink?

  So just note, no more. Let's stop.

• 3:42:19Speaker 01

  Noted.

• 3:42:22Jocko Willink?

  Also, don't forget about psychological warfare. Little psychological hitter.

• 3:42:29Jocko Willink?

  And I actually had the person point out to me, hey, that was me. Now, so that's one. I also had the person point out to me that there's a name for the type of shooting that we talked about, which is where you're shooting at where things are, you think things might be. It's called Drake shooting. And the dude is like, he's a guy that's on Twitter, who always brings up good points. He does his own personal research on stuff. But he's got a weird like handle that I can't remember what it is ever. I mean, I recognize in a heartbeat. I know I can tell you all the kind of things. So anyways, I apologize for not telling you that Drake shooting appreciate the info. He's always got good info. But the psychological hitter was someone that's realized that that's what psychological warfare is.

• 3:43:11Jocko Willink?

  It's not some broad course on how to have more discipline in your life. It's just a little bit of a

• 3:43:20Jocko Willink?

  in case you need it. So psychological warfare. And if you need a visual hitter, you can go to flipsidecanvas.com. Dakota Meyer, making a bunch of really cool.

• 3:43:32Jocko Willink?

  A bunch of really cool graphic images that you can hang up on your wall so you stay on the path no matter what. Books. Hey, look for this book right here, The Memory Endures, awesome book. An honor to be able to read it. Thank you to Rick or Rich who sent it to me. And yes, we will keep up the work that we're doing here. If you want to get this book, go to pilotspublishing.co.uk or go to facebook.comthememoryendoors. And if you'll also be helping out the regiment, the parachute regiment charity. On top of that, leadership strategy and tactics. Everyone that's got it, thank you. You're probably going to get copies of those for the people that you know, recommended. Let's get your team on board. Appreciate it. Warrior kids, one, two, and three.

• 3:44:20Jocko Willink?

  Probably the best kids books that you can get right now, in my opinion. I'm biased, but I'm only biased because I read them and I think, man, the lessons in these books. I wish I knew them.

• 3:44:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:44:35Jocko Willink?

  I wish I knew them. So Warrior Kid Books 1, 2, and 3, Way the Warrior Kid, Mark's Mission, and Where There's a Will, Mikey and the Dragons. If you've got a littler kid that wants to learn, one of the most important things that you can learn as a kid is how to overcome fear. That book shows you how to overcome fear. Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Get it so that you can read two pages. Read two pages. Okay, you know, let's say we made up a pill. That you could take this pill and you would get a mind shift. Like in a positive way, like you would, you, if you took this pill, you would increase your discipline. Factually, okay. Would that pill, pill sell well? Would people want it?

• 3:45:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 3:45:17Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Read two pages of this book. Your discipline will increase.

• 3:45:22Jocko Willink?

  16 to 18% by the way.

• 3:45:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:45:25Jocko Willink?

  The increase in discipline.

• 3:45:26Speaker 01

  Well.

• 3:45:27Jocko Willink?

  Read two pages.

• 3:45:28Speaker 01

  Well, in the defense of the pill people.

• 3:45:32Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:45:33Speaker 01

  Pill advocates, the whole purpose of a pill is so you don't have to do any kind of work, read, or do all this stuff. See what I'm saying?

• 3:45:40Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 3:45:40Speaker 01

  So.

• 3:45:41Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Two pages of this book is not an extended period of time. You're, you're finishing this in less than four minutes.

• 3:45:49Speaker 01

  Oh, so right. So this, this book essentially is the pill of books. So you know, instead of like the encyclopedia set of books. See what I'm saying?

• 3:46:00Jocko Willink?

  We'll take it.

• 3:46:01Speaker 01

  It's a rough, loose analogy.

• 3:46:03Jocko Willink?

  Not sure, not 100%. I'll think, I'll think through that one. And then, of course, we got Extreme Ownership and the Dichotomy of Leadership. These are the foundational books about leadership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. We got Echelon Front, which is a leadership consultancy. Look, if you have a business, if you have a team, if you have a company and you have problems, every single problem that you have is a leadership problem. I guarantee that every single problem that you have is a leadership problem. And what we do at Echelon Front is we solve problems through leadership. So go to echelonfront.com for details. We got EF Online, which is Leadership Interactive Leadership Training Online. It's EFOnline.com. You can get the information, you can get the repetitions, you

• 3:46:47Jocko Willink?

  can get put, you can get put in scenarios that will help you think through problems at EF Online. We also do little live webinars where we answer questions. EFOnline.com. We got the muster coming up in Dallas, Texas, Orlando, Florida, and Phoenix, Arizona. Every event that we've done has sold out. If you want to come, go to ExtremeOwnership.com right now and register. Leadership Seminar, that's what we do there. And of course, we've got EF Overwatch and EF Legion.

• 3:47:27Jocko Willink?

  Placement for military people that understand Extreme Ownership, that understand the dichotomy of leadership. EF Overwatch is for executive leadership inside companies. EF Legion, frontline troops and frontline leaders. Go to EFOverwatch.com or EFLegion to get involved in that from either side, whether you're a vet that wants to get into a civilian job, or there's a civilian company that needs veterans to help you lead and win. Go to those websites and get that figured out. And if you have not heard enough of my overly dramatic speech patterns and excessively long pauses, and you haven't heard enough of Echo's ridiculous commentary about the heroic life of

• 3:48:13Jocko Willink?

  being a bouncer, then we are available on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, and on ye old fashioned books. Echo is at EchoCharles and I am at Jaco and Linkin. Thank you all for listening to the podcast and for giving this podcast your support.

• 3:48:35Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for spreading the word. Thanks for telling your friends. Thanks for getting some Defcore gear, or some Origin gear, all of which allows us to do this podcast. And of course, thanks to Reg Curtis for your service and sacrifice to keep us free. And all the military members out there in uniform right now, doing the same thing, keeping the enemy at bay. And also to our police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service and all first responders.

• 3:49:15Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for keeping us safe every single day here at home.

• 3:49:22Jocko Willink?

  And everyone else out there, remember what Reg Curtis taught us.

• 3:49:30Jocko Willink?

  To never give up, even against overwhelming odds, to never accept defeat, to persevere and endure until the end. And then, when you get tripped up, or you get knocked down, even then, what you do is you do the best you can.

• 3:49:55Jocko Willink?

  Lesson learned.

• 3:49:58Jocko Willink?

  Thank you, Reg Curtis. And we will be out there in your honor.

• 3:50:06Jocko Willink?

  Getting after it. And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco. Out.