Toby Wilkinson on Ptolemaic Egypt and the First Great Commercial Civilization

Toby Wilkinson is one of the world's leading Egyptologists, whose books have ranged across the full sweep of pharaonic history. His latest, The Last Dynasty: Ancient Egypt from Alexander the Great to Cleopatra, covers the 300-year Ptolemaic period — stranger and more modern-feeling than the Egypt of the pyramids, built around commerce and cosmopolitanism rather than divine kingship, and home to the greatest concentration of scientific talent the ancient world ever saw. Tyler and Toby cover how Alexander took over the empire almost without a fight, why Alexandria became the Manhattan of the ancient world, whether the era was as philosophically fertile as it was scientifically, whether your ancient doctor's visit had positive expected value, what Egypt was actually exporting and selling, whether living standards rose above subsistence or stayed Malthusian, how the ethnic divide between Greek rulers and Egyptian subjects shaped society, what constrained the Ptolemaic Empire from becoming the next Rome, whether Cleopatra has been overhyped, what Julius Caesar was really thinking when he sided with her over her brother, the new frontiers in archeology, whether Herodotus can be trusted, what ancient Egypt knew about Israel and India, when Egyptian jewelry peaked and why, what triggered the sudden emergence of civilization across the ancient world, why a six-year-old Tyler knew King Tut better than Napoleon, and much more. Read a full transcript https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/toby-wilkinson/ enhanced with helpful links, or watch the full video https://youtu.be/kjvGbkIxJZw on the new dedicated Conversations with Tyler channel. Recorded March 23rd, 2026. Other ways to connect Follow us on X https://twitter.com/cowenconvos and Instagram https://www.instagram.com/cowenconvos/?hl=en Follow Tyler https://twitter.com/tylercowen on X Sign up for our newsletter https://mercatus.tfaforms.net/5060931 Join our Discord https://discord.gg/JAVWP7vTxt Email us: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] Learn more about Conversations with Tyler and other Mercatus Center podcasts here https://www.mercatus.org/podcasts. Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:29 - Intellectual Activity of Alexandria 00:11:07 - The Alexandrian Economy 00:14:36 - The Ptolemaic Empire 00:21:19 - Unanswered Questions in Ptolemaic Egypt 00:23:32 - Modern Alexandria and the Future of Archaeology 00:26:37 - Other Topics in Ancient Egypt 00:42:10 - Toby's Career 00:45:26 - Outro Photo Credit: Benjamin Frei

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Tyler Cowen?

  Conversations with Tyler is produced by the Mercatus Center at George Mason University, bridging the gap between academic ideas and real world problems. Learn more at mercatus.org. For a full transcript of every conversation enhanced with helpful links, visit conversationswithtyler.com.

• 0:28Tyler Cowen?

  Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Conversations with Tyler. Today, I'm chatting with Toby Wilkinson, who is one of the world's leading Egyptologists. I'm quite intrigued by his latest book. It is called The Last Dynasty: Ancient Egypt from Alexander the Great to Cleopatra, and he is also a fellow at Clare College, Cambridge. Toby, welcome.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Thank you very much for having me on the show.

• 0:51Tyler Cowen?

  So, Petolomitic Egypt, you know, it lasts around 300 years. When exactly does it start and end? And where was it? Just to give our listeners an introduction.

• 1:00Speaker 01

  Sure. So, we're talking here about Egypt, the Valley of the River Nile, in the northeastern corner of the continent of Africa, but always really a crossroads between Africa, the Middle East, and Europe. And the time period we're talking about starts in 332 B.C. with Alexander the Great's conquest of Egypt, and it ends in 30 B.C., so 300 years later, with the death of the famous Cleopatra and Egypt's absorption into the Roman Empire.

• 1:29Tyler Cowen?

  And Alexander is able to take over Egypt because Persian incursions had weakened it? Or how did that happen? We think of Egypt as so strong and mighty and everlasting back then.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Egypt, of course, had been a very, very mighty civilization for thousands of years, but in the centuries before Alexander the Great, it had been weakened internally and threatened externally by a variety of other powers, and it had fallen to the might of Persia. Well, the Persians were hated in Egypt. They really were loathed and despised because they didn't celebrate or even pay due respect to Egyptian gods and Egyptian traditions. So, when Alexander the Great Who himself was trying to overthrow Persia, arrived at the gates of Egypt. He was welcomed as a hero because he had thrown off the hated Persians. So I suppose it was the old principle, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  So Alexander the Great was welcomed as a friend into Egypt and took over control of the country almost without a fight.

• 2:29Tyler Cowen?

  So either technologically or institutionally, what is it that the Persians had that the Egyptians did not?

• 2:35Speaker 01

  Well, the Persians had a pretty formidable army. Their military technology was certainly superior to the Egyptians at the time that they conquered Egypt. Originally in the sixth century B.C. But they, like many empires, I suppose throughout history, they kind of overreached themselves. They overextended themselves. And they found it increasingly hard to hold together this empire, stretching all the way from the Aegean to the, you know, the borders of India. And so bits of the empire started to kind of fragment and pull away. And Egypt had always had this very strong sense of its own identity. So, you know, when it had a chance to throw off the Persian yoke, it took it.

• 3:12Tyler Cowen?

  So let's think about some of the achievements of Ptolemaic Egypt as an era. Infrastructure, what did they do that was most impressive?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Build Alexandria. Alexandria, the city, was a new foundation established by Alexander the Great to bear his name. And unlike all previous ancient Egyptian cities, it was a city built from the outset for commerce. It was a city built on the Mediterranean coast with a great natural harbour, with facilities for loading and offloading ships. It had a great lighthouse guarding the entrance to its harbour, which became one of the wonders of the world. So the whole city was really designed from the get go as a great commercial centre, looking outwards to the Mediterranean, rather than inwards to the rest of Egypt.

• 3:58Tyler Cowen?

  Canals, artificial lake, what else did they do?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  They built a city quite unlike anything previously seen in the Valley of the River Nile. With, in fact, any inhabitant today of a modern city would recognise the gridiron pattern of streets. Streets intersecting at right angles. That was something completely unheard of until this point in Egypt with vast public. Buildings. This was the Manhattan of the ancient world, if you like, both in scale, in grandeur and in the the level of commercial activity.

• 4:29Tyler Cowen?

  And how large was the library in Alexandria? And how did they build that out?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Well, this is interesting because the Ptolemaic kings not only wanted to be wealthy economically, but they wanted to be renowned throughout the ancient world as great scholar leaders. They thought it was important that a new dynasty establish its credentials as a patron of the arts and of learning, not just as the head of a great sort of commercial enterprise. So they invited all the leading scholars from the Greek-speaking world from right across the Mediterranean to Alexandria, where they provided them with a library, with what was called a museum or a temple of the muses, a place where scholars could think great thoughts and be well looked after.

• 5:14Speaker 01

  And the library was developed over centuries, really, as the greatest repository of learning that the world had ever seen up to this point. It is thought that maybe at its height it contained half a million volumes, half a million manuscripts, mostly written on papyrus, but representing really the sum total of human knowledge at that time.

• 5:36Tyler Cowen?

  And Euclid and Erasthenes are connected to this era?

• 5:40Speaker 01

  Almost any big name from ancient science has some connection with Alexandria. Euclid, the mathematician, studied there. Eratosthenes, who quite amazingly calculated the circumference of the earth, he carried out those calculations in Alexandria. There were leaders in the fields of astronomy, of anatomy and medicine, of geography, of philosophy, of literary theory. They were all active in Alexandria under the patronage of the Ptolemaic kings.

• 6:11Tyler Cowen?

  But am I correct in thinking that the era was quite weak in philosophy in some ways? There's no great name, maybe it's all lost manuscripts. But it seems to be a bit like China, infrastructure intensive. They build amazing things, it's commercial, but they're not really thinkers.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  I think that would be a misrepresentation. I mean, Alexandria under the Ptolemaics didn't produce a Socrates or a Plato. It is true. But what it did, what its scholars did was to synthesize strands of philosophy from ancient Greek thought, ancient Egyptian thought, Babylonian thought, ancient Hebrew philosophy and religion. So it was a melting pot and it maybe didn't throw up the big name, but it was a very fertile ground for the exchange and the interchange of ideas.

• 7:02Tyler Cowen?

  But say I try to read Deodorus, there's a lot of detail, but it's not to me very interesting. It just seems much worse than Herodotus, who is profound and in a way a step back. Maybe that's not representative.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I think there are a lot more scholarly works, I mean, both surviving and lost, that were composed in ancient Alexandria that would be more surprising and more revelatory than those that you've just mentioned.

• 7:30Tyler Cowen?

  So what was it exactly that was so special about the intellectual and scientific and productive environment of Alexandria and in Virens? Was it that the Egyptians were there or the mix of Greeks and Egyptians or something else? What?

• 7:44Speaker 01

  I think there are three factors really. I mean, one is certainly the Egyptian context, and I don't think those intellectual advances that were made in Alexandria could have been made anywhere else. So let's take anatomy, for example. In the Greek world in general, there was a taboo on cutting up human bodies. But of course, ancient Egypt had a long tradition of mummification, which involved dissecting human corpses. And so if you were an anatomist and you wanted to make discoveries about how the organs functioned, the only place you could do that at this time was ancient Egypt. And the same is true, actually, in many other branches of science. The Egyptian traditions of scholarship and of learning really laid the foundations for Greek thinkers to take them to the next

• 8:26Speaker 01

  level. The second aspect was the wonderful infrastructure that was put in place by the Ptolemaic to lure scholars to Alexandria. They were paid handsomely, they had access to the world's best library, they had all of the facilities at their disposal. So there was really no better place to be than Alexandria. And the third factor was really the kind of kleptomaniac of the Ptolemaic rulers. They were not just bibliophiles, but they wanted to acquire a copy, or preferably the original, of every book and manuscript circulating in the ancient Greek world. And to that end, they indulged in sort of downright thieving. They sent a word, for example, to Athens, which was one of the great centres of scholarship,

• 9:09Speaker 01

  a rival centre of learning, and requested copies of books from Athens City Library. And the copies arrived in Alexandria. They were then seized by the Ptolemaic authorities and kept for Alexandria's own library. And they were only too happy to pay the fine because they had the books. So it was a combination of factors that really led Alexandria to being the greatest centre for scholars and for scholarship.

• 9:36Tyler Cowen?

  So how good was the medicine back then? Let's say they could set my broken leg, but if I'm sick and I just show up, is my doctor's visit even positive expected value? Or are they more likely to harm me than help me?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  I think we would be surprised, pleasantly surprised, by the sophistication of medical understanding at this time. There were ancient Egyptian papyri on medicine dating back many, many centuries before the Ptolemaic came to the throne. And these looked in detail at all sorts of different afflictions and whether or not they could be treated, and if so, what the recommended treatments were. I'll give you one example, migraine. Now, we think of a migraine as a relatively Western modern phenomenon, a medical condition. But actually, the ancient Egyptians recognised it, described it, they came up with a word for it, half-head migraine. And they developed very sophisticated electrical treatments for migraine involving an electric

• 10:32Speaker 01

  discharge from the head of a catfish. A Nile catfish emits a low-level electric discharge, and the ancient Egyptians had discovered that applying this to the head of a migraine sufferer could have a beneficial therapeutic effect. I mean, goodness me, it wasn't until the 20th century that modern medicine rediscovered the importance of electricity in terms of neural pathways. So, yeah, they were very sophisticated.

• 10:56Tyler Cowen?

  Should we do this today with the catfish?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  If you can find one that's sort of skulking along the bottom, maybe they live in the Mississippi too. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, but it does seem to have done the trick.

• 11:07Tyler Cowen?

  So what were the main exports of the Alexandria region? What are they selling, making?

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Oh, the two big exports that account for the lion's share of Egypt's wealth at the time are gold and grain. So, gold has been mined in Egypt for millennia up to this point, but it's still the place in the ancient world that produces large quantities of gold. And of course, you know, gold has always been a great currency of international commerce. And then Egypt is famed as the breadbasket of the ancient world. It produces a superabundance of grain, thanks to the fertility of the Nile and the benign climate, produces more than it needed for its own consumption by comparison with poorer agricultural regions in Greece and Asia Minor, which struggled to produce enough food. So, yeah,

• 11:54Speaker 01

  golden grain with the absolute engine of Egyptian prosperity.

• 11:58Tyler Cowen?

  There's metalwork, there's glass, or what else is there? Manufacturing, as we would call it today.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, there's, there's a big ceramics industry, so producing not just pots, but terracotta statues and votive objects. There's glassmaking, as you've said, there's advanced metallurgy, goldsmithing, ironworking, copper and bronze foundries. There's what we might call the decorative arts, so sculpture, painting, all of these things thrived in ancient Alexandria.

• 12:26Tyler Cowen?

  So do they have living standards sustainably above subsistence? Or is this a Malthusian equilibrium where they get some wealth and then more people survive and the wage falls again, and it doesn't get much above what is required to keep people alive?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Depended on where you lived, I think. If you were an urban dweller of Alexandria, you were living significantly above subsistence levels. You were a merchant, you were a trader, you were an artisan, you were manufacturing objects or trading objects. Yeah, you had a decent standard of living by the standards of the ancient world. If you were a peasant labouring in the fields of Upper Egypt, it was a pretty hand-to-mouth existence, as it always had been.

• 13:07Tyler Cowen?

  But what stops the living standards from being equalized? Is there a barrier to entering the city? Or why don't people flow in, as they do say in modern India, until the living standards are roughly equal?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  They do flow in, but there's an important dimension to Ptolemaic society, which is The ethnic divide, put very bluntly, the ruling class were Greek speaking immigrants from the Mediterranean world, of course, presided over by a Greek speaking dynasty of pharaohs, the Ptolemaic, and Greek speakers more or less monopolized all of the the key positions of office. And then the vast majority of the population out in what the Greeks call the kora, the countryside, were indigenous Egyptians, many of whom, most of whom probably couldn't converse in Greek, which was the language of of government and diplomacy. So it was very much a kind of, it was a society of two halves.

• 14:00Tyler Cowen?

  And how much slavery is there?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  So slavery is one of the less attractive aspects of the kind of Greek package that comes to Egypt with the Ptolemaic. Up until this point in Egypt, there hasn't really been slavery in the way that we would recognize it. There's been feudalism, but there's not been slavery. The Greeks introduce slavery to Egypt and they buy and sell slaves in markets, including in Alexandria. It's still not a defining feature of Ptolemaic society in the way that it would be later in ancient Rome, but it has reared its ugly head for the first time in Egyptian history.

• 14:36Tyler Cowen?

  Given all the successes, what should I think of as the limiting principle behind rule here? So it stretches as far as what we would call Cyprus today, but it never becomes a very large area, right? It doesn't become the next Roman Empire. Why doesn't it?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  I mean, at its greatest extent, the Ptolemaic Empire includes much of the coast of modern day Libya, certainly Cyprus, the Nile Valley, parts of present day Lebanon and Syria and Turkey and some islands in the Aegean. So, yeah, it's not as big as the Roman Empire would later be. What are its constraining factors? Partly, it's a lack of ambition. Well, not a lack of ambition, moderate ambition. I mean, the Ptolemaic really want to rule Egypt, which is regarded as the jewel in Alexander the Great's crown. It's the most prosperous part of his empire. And the other territories that they conquer in a ring around Egypt are really only there as a defensive buffer zone to protect Egypt. So they have no particular

• 15:37Speaker 01

  ambition to to create a kind of world empire as Alexander the Great did. So that was one constraining factor, but they are also not the only players in the ancient world. I mean, there are other powerful dynasties of kings in in Asia and in the Greek mainland who have territorial designs of their own. So it sort of keeps these various powers in equilibrium and it stops one of them becoming dominant, really until the Romans upend the whole system. So I suppose, yeah, those are the two constraining factors, ambition and competition.

• 16:08Tyler Cowen?

  And you think the Romans had the ambition, in a way, Ptolemaic Egypt did not?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  I do. I think the Romans were motivated by a real desire to conquer. Ancient Roman military leaders were only as good as their last victory on the battlefield. I mean, you see that in the in the later days of the Republic and the beginning of the empire. Whereas in ancient Egyptian tradition, certainly, military success was not the benchmark of of a successful reign. It was something that you needed to do in order to protect your own borders. But there were other achievements, honouring the gods, building great temples, presiding over a glittering civilisation that were considered equally important.

• 16:48Tyler Cowen?

  So how is it that all this ends, or at least starts to decline? What's the mechanism?

• 16:53Speaker 01

  Well, it begins with the finances. So the Ptolemaic Empire becomes overstretched. It has to invest hugely in its armed forces in order to fend off not just the growing predations of Rome, but actually its closer neighbours as well. That leads to higher taxes. There's a series of climatic shocks, poor Niles leading to poor harvests. So it's a kind of perfect storm. The economy goes south pretty quickly and the only solution that the Ptolemaic can see is to go cap in hand to Roman moneylenders to bail out the Egyptian economy. And that then really gives Rome leverage over Egypt. That all gets bound

• 17:38Speaker 01

  up in the republican politics of Rome and in the rivalry between Caesar and his rivals, and then ultimately Octavian, who becomes the first Emperor Augustus. And Egypt...

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Goes from being a great civilization confident of itself to being a pawn in other people's power play. And ultimately, Rome is able to march into Alexandria, overthrow Cleopatra and seize Egypt for itself. And it's a kind of salutary lesson for our own time that a civilization can appear to the outside world to be magnificent and wealthy and successful, but actually the seeds of its own destruction are usually lying there somewhere, just waiting for the conditions to germinate.

• 18:23Tyler Cowen?

  Do we have a sense of how high the tax burden was then, or government spending as a share of GDP? Anything numerically?

• 18:29Speaker 01

  Nothing that we can lay our hands on in that sense, no kind of reliable statistics. But we do have papyrus records of farmers complaining of the increasing tax burden, complaining that an ever increasing amount of their harvest is being taken by the state in the form of an agricultural produce tax. So, no, we can't sort of chart this in graphs, but we definitely get a sense from the people on the ground that this is becoming increasingly burdensome.

• 18:57Tyler Cowen?

  And there was a system back then where companies would bid for government backed monopolies and they'd hold them as a kind of franchise? How did that work out?

• 19:05Speaker 01

  That's right, yeah. Particularly with regard to the manufacture of certain products which were controlled by the government. So I'm thinking here of oil, cooking oil, for example. That was a government monopoly, but you could bid to acquire the franchise to produce cooking oil. And, you know, if you won the franchise, then it was pretty lucrative because you then had an effective monopoly on this until the next bidding war came around. The same was true for farming crown land, so land held by the government. If you thought you could farm this more productively than the last guy, then you might be prepared to bid a little bit more and then you'd reap the benefits. So, yeah, it was quite an interesting economic system. This was entirely new in ancient Egypt.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  This was a product of the Ptolemaic and of their desire to maximize the tax take, really.

• 19:56Tyler Cowen?

  And how important to figure is Cleopatra in this whole history? Is it just marketing and Shakespeare and Elizabeth Taylor? Or was she really at the centre of what was happening? Did she matter?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  She mattered. You know, she was the last Egyptian pharaoh because after her, Egypt as an independent nation ceases to exist and it becomes part of the Roman Empire. But more than that, you know, she was the inheritor of a dynasty that had ruled for 300 years. She managed to play the cards that she had been dealt more effectively than her immediate predecessors. She was very smart. All ancient authors are agreed upon that point. She was very charismatic. She was a great strategist. She was the only Ptolemaic ever to learn to speak Egyptian. So she could actually speak to her own people in their language rather than through a translator.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  And I suppose the question for me is not so much, why did Cleopatra ultimately fail? But how did she manage to survive and succeed for so long? When all the other parts of Alexander's empire had already been gobbled up by the might of Rome? So yes, she does matter. She she manages to maintain and preserve not only her inheritance, but the inheritance of 3,000 years of pharaonic civilisation against all the odds. Of course, ultimately, we all know how the story ends, but she had a remarkable run of success.

• 21:19Tyler Cowen?

  If there were two or three burning questions, maybe you think about them every day. Things you don't know about Ptolemaic Egypt, but wish you did. What's on your shortlist?

• 21:28Speaker 01

  I'd love to know where Cleopatra was buried. Cleopatra's tomb has never been found, probably because it now lies underwater. Much of ancient Alexandria has, by a combination of earthquake and rising sea levels, been submerged under the waters of the Mediterranean. And that almost certainly includes the mausoleum where Cleopatra was buried. So it would be good to to discover that. Equally, it would be very neat to find the burial place of Alexander the Great, the guy who started it all off. We're told ancient authors who recorded visits to Alexander's tomb tell us that he was buried in a glass coffin richly kind of.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Overlaid with gold, it would be pretty amazing to find that too. So those are two of the persistent kind of questions that nag at Egyptologists and archaeologists. Finding the tombs of those two great figures from ancient history. But for me personally, I'd quite like to just be transported in a time machine back to Ptolemaic Alexandria. And walk the streets and soak up the vibe and see what it was really like.

• 22:29Tyler Cowen?

  But say conceptually, what's the biggest cause and effect mystery about this whole history? Something you don't know and would like to know.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I suppose for me, it would be, why was it that Julius Caesar decided to throw in his lot with Cleopatra? Which was not the obvious choice for a military general at that time of the famous meeting between the two. The tide was with Cleopatra's brother, Ptolemaic the thirteenth. He had the army on his side. He seemed to to have the wind in his sails. Why was it that Caesar kind of turned his back on his military instincts and decided to side with? A woman in the ancient Roman world, the idea that a woman might be a leader and a great leader at that was anathema. So it's a very peculiar choice for Caesar.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And of course, you know, historians have put it down to chemistry, it to love, but. This was a great tactician. There must have been more to it than that. And I'd like to get into his head and find out what was really motivating him.

• 23:32Tyler Cowen?

  When you visit contemporary Alexandria, do you learn anything about this ancient era?

• 23:37Speaker 01

  There's not much to see, to be honest with you. There are a few monuments left over from this Ptolemaic period. But, you know, in today's Egypt, Alexandria is a big metropolis. It's a bustling, busy, noisy, dirty city like any other big city. It's quite hard to see through that and glimpse anything of the ancient city that it once was. So for me, ancient Alexandria exists in the imagination and in the writings of ancient historians. But it's quite hard to perceive on the ground today.

• 24:09Tyler Cowen?

  Do you like current Alexandria? I've been there once. I enjoyed walking along the sea and eating seafood, but so much of it seemed to be a dirty mess.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I find it like any great city. I find it has a kind of vitality to it, which is quite energizing, but it's not a place that you go in search of the ancient past, I think.

• 24:29Tyler Cowen?

  And how is it we're likely to learn more about Petolomitic Egypt? Is it underwater discovery, DNA studies, LIDAR recovering manuscripts using AI? What are the frontiers for learning more?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  All of the above. You've just put your finger on it. I mean, only recently, there's been underwater archaeology, which has reconstructed the appearance of one of the islands in the great harbour of Alexandria, which it turns out Cleopatra spent a great deal of time fortifying and turning into a great sort of commercial slash dynastic port. So that's only come up out of the sea in the last year or two. That's pretty astonishing. Yeah, the fact that we can now read rolls of papyrus without unrolling them through X-rays and AI. We are poised really at the beginning of a revolution in the study of ancient texts, because many of these papyrus rolls are too friable, too fragile to unroll.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  But if we can now read them with modern technology, that will open up whole new vistas of understanding of the ancient world. So yeah, I mean, archaeological science is really poised to make some huge new breakthroughs, I think, in the study of the ancient world.

• 25:40Tyler Cowen?

  And what's the binding constraint? Obviously, money always matters, but is there enough talent and interest and people who know the languages or who know AI to do this? What's holding back progress from not being faster?

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Archaeology is still quite a small subject. It's not something that many people choose to study at university, not by comparison with, you know, economics or math or whatever it might be. It's still quite a niche pursuit. Funding, as always, is a constraint. You know, mounting a big archaeological excavation or underwater exploration is not a cheap undertaking. It's not an inexpensive thing to do and the sources of funding are constrained. So I guess, yeah, getting more people into the discipline and finding ways for them to utilise their talents, that would be great. I think the understanding is there, but it's shared amongst a fairly small group of experts. So bringing more people into the discipline would certainly be a good thing.

• 26:37Tyler Cowen?

  Now, most of your books are about non-Petolomitic ancient Egypt, the kingdoms, and I have a few questions about those.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 26:45Tyler Cowen?

  To what extent can we trust Herodotus?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  More than we used to think we could. So it was fashionable 50 years ago to decry Herodotus as a charlatan, making up stories, you know, tall tales of Egypt, none of which seemed to stack up. The more we've done archaeological excavation, the more documents that we've unearthed, the more it turns out that Herodotus was actually quite accurate in many ways. Yes, of course, he embellished his accounts, as all historians, ancient and modern do, I suppose, to an extent. But at its core, Herodotus is not that unreliable.

• 27:21Tyler Cowen?

  Is there talk of Israel in Egyptian hieroglyphic texts? And if so, what do we learn from those?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  In the entire corpus of ancient Egyptian writing, the name Israel only occurs once, and this is on a victory stealer from the reign of Muren Ptaa. So this is the 13th century B.C. It's in the context of a whole list of lands and peoples that the Egyptian pharaoh has conquered. And Israel is included there, not as the name of a territory, but as the name of a tribe. And the phrase is, "Israel is vanquished, his seed is no more." So this is referring to the Israelites, rather than Israel as a territory. And it's almost a footnote in the ancient Egyptian record. So it's always been one of those curiosities,

• 28:09Speaker 01

  people looking for echoes of the biblical, the Judeo-Christian narrative in ancient Egyptian texts. They don't find a lot, and Israel occurs just the once.

• 28:21Tyler Cowen?

  And say, the legal reasoning in the Book of Exodus, the commandments, the constitutional structure, the covenant, to what extent, if anything, if any, do you feel that comes from Egypt?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  I think there was a lot of sharing of ideas in the ancient world, the idea that, you know, Egypt was on its own, and the Middle East was on its own, and the Greek world was on its own. Not at all. There was always exchange of people and materials and commodities and ideas. And if you look at, for example, some of the Psalms, you'll find not just echoes, but entire chunks of ancient Egyptian literature that have been sort of... As we would say today, cut and pasted from one to the other. So people of learning, scribes, writers, poets certainly would have shared ideas with others of their kind across national and linguistic boundaries.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  And the more we study the ancient world, the more of these interconnections become apparent to us.

• 29:23Tyler Cowen?

  How much of a sense of, say, India did the ancient Egyptians have?

• 29:27Speaker 01

  Not a lot until the Persians. And as we spoke about at the beginning, the Persian Empire runs at its eastern extremity right up to the borders of India and also includes much of Egypt. And it's through that medium, the Egyptians become cognizant of Indian civilisation. So for example, Darius I, great emperor of Persia, but also ruler of Egypt, he cuts an early version of the Suez Canal to join the Red Sea with the Nile and sets up along his canal, a whole series of kind of boundary stones. And on them, he has an inscription which celebrates him as a great leader.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  And he mentions the lands under his control in ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. And they include Sind, the ancient name for India. So it was really through the medium of the Persians that these two great civilisations come to know each other.

• 30:24Tyler Cowen?

  When did the quality of ancient Egyptian jewellery peak? And can we infer anything from that?

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Well, I think different Egyptologists would have different opinions on this. I personally think that the most sophisticated and refined jewellery was produced in the 12th dynasty. So this is between about 1950 and 1800 B.C. Very beautiful designs inlaid with carnelian and turquoise and lapis lazuli, gold filigree work. It's a very refined aesthetic. Why? I think because you had a strong and stable regime that was able to be a great patron of the arts. I like to compare Egypt in the 12th dynasty with France under the

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Sun King Louis XIV. It was a time when arts and craftsmanship really excelled under royal patronage. You know, later on, the Egyptians produced heavier, more gaudy, more kind of showy jewellery, but to my mind, the 12th Dynasty is really the pinnacle.

• 31:29Tyler Cowen?

  Have you been to the new Cairo Museum yet?

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Not yet, but I'm going later this year.

• 31:32Tyler Cowen?

  It's incredible. I went.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  Looking forward to it immensely.

• 31:35Tyler Cowen?

  It was much better than what I was expecting.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  That's good to hear.

• 31:37Tyler Cowen?

  How were the pyramids built?

• 31:39Speaker 01

  With a lot of people and a lot of grunt work, but essentially hauling blocks of stone on wooden sledges up from the quarry to the building site, up large ramps of earth, and then laid in place very carefully and dressed from the top down as they cleared all of their ramps away. So it can be done, it just requires a big workforce and a lot of time.

• 32:04Tyler Cowen?

  So no major role for hydraulics or water?

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, in those days, the Nile, when it was during the inundation, when it was flooded, came right up to the base of the Giza Plateau. So it would have been possible to float blocks of stone from the quarries on the other side of the river, right up to the base of the building site in a way that couldn't be done today. So yeah, some blocks brought to the building site by water, but then dragged up the slope to the site itself.

• 32:32Tyler Cowen?

  In one of your books, you defined ancient Egyptian civilisation as monumental hieroglyphics and divine kingship. Is that still true? Why are those the essentials?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Writing defines the civilisation from the outset until the very end. Writing is not just a means of communication, it's not even principally a means of communication in ancient Egypt. It's hieroglyphics, quite literally, the signs of gods, the sacred signs. Hieroglyphics is a way of recording for posterity an ideal state of being, and this includes rule by the pharaohs. So it encodes their whole worldview. It's not just a way of communicating everyday ideas. And it is coeval with Egyptian civilisation, so very much a defining feature. And then kingship, I mean, what makes pharaonic

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Egypt pharaonic is the fact that it had a pharaoh and a pharaoh is not just a king. He is God on earth. He's God incarnate. And it was that idea that there was ancient Egyptian society was almost like a pyramid itself with the king, the pharaoh at the apex and the idea that the gods and the people had this contract mediated through the person of the king is the defining idea of ancient Egyptian civilization and gives rise to all of those aspects that we would recognise today as most characteristically Egyptian. Pyramids, temples, tombs in the Valley of the Kings. It's all, it's all there because of the idea of divine kingship.

• 34:02Tyler Cowen?

  And why is it relatively so stable for so incredibly long?

• 34:06Speaker 01

  That's a good question. Egypt is fairly secure within natural borders for much of its history. So if you think about it, it's bounded by deserts with the Mediterranean Sea to the north. The only land bridge between Egypt and, and the continent of Asia is this very narrow isthmus along the, the northern fringe of the Sinai Peninsula. So it's quite hard for aggressive forces actually to infiltrate Egypt. It has pretty secure natural borders. It has an incredibly fertile ecology, thanks to the River Nile. So it's able to produce enough food, more than enough food for its own purposes and, and really power a great civilisation.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  So climate, ecology, natural borders. I think they, yeah, they make a pretty, pretty strong and, and stable combination.

• 34:57Tyler Cowen?

  But why not just cross the Mediterranean with boats? It's very much a navigable sea and start taking things. It seems open as prey.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Curiously enough, the Egyptians throughout most of their history don't seem to have been motivated by a great sense of empire building. They had a sense of themselves as a chosen people and the sense of their land as a chosen land. And when they write about other countries and cultures, they are very pejorative. They're very denigrating of other countries and cultures because Egypt to them is special. The land of Egypt, the people of Egypt are are unique. They are God's creation. So they never really have that same sense of wanting to conquer lots of other territories because nothing in their minds could ever live up to to Egypt and the Egyptians.

• 35:49Tyler Cowen?

  This is a very speculative question, but I'm sure you've thought about it. So humankind has been around for a long time and it seems there's not much progress. And then all of a sudden, there's the Sumerians, the Assyrians, the ancient Egyptians, then more. What is it you think happened? Was it writing, something else?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  I think when we look at the origins of these great civilizations, all within a few centuries of each other, there's a kind of combination of factors that each one individually perhaps wouldn't have have tipped the balance, but taken together, they made a difference. Climate, very important one. So this is a period where there is a shift in the rain belt across North Africa and the Middle East. It shifts further south. It it leads to the drying out of large swathes of land that had previously been inhabitable by cattle herders and and small scale farmers. And what this does is concentrate population in river valleys. They people head for the permanent sources of water and that critical mass of people

• 36:50Speaker 01

  in a fairly constrained area does give rise to social change and to to the emergence of civilization. So climatic stress, climate change, environmental pressures, certainly a big factor right across the Middle East.

• 37:04Tyler Cowen?

  But there's a whole world of people and for three, 400,000 years, this never happens? I always find that strange. Or maybe it did happen and there's no surviving record of it, but that's strange as well.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I'm not sure that I've got a satisfactory answer to your question, Tyler. It's a it's a good one. Why at this moment in history did it all suddenly kind of come together and not before? Yeah, I need to ponder that one a little more.

• 37:29Tyler Cowen?

  Here's a very sociological question, in in America in particular. How is it that King Tut became so very famous? So when I was six years old, I knew who King Tut was, but I had no idea, say, of Napoleon. I'm not even sure I knew who Hitler was. How did it become such a big deal?

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Well, the discovery of King Tut's tomb was the first archaeological discovery of the modern media age. So Lord Carnarvon did a very smart thing. He entered into an exclusive relationship with the Times of London to cover the excavation and the discovery of all these amazing objects. And so it was hot property in media terms and, you know, the Times then syndicated its stories around the world. It was also something about the era, I think, the early 1920s. You know, the world was picking itself up after the First World War. There was a real hunger for glamour and stories of, you know, of kind of beauty and opulence and magnificence. So it kind of struck a chord with the zeitgeist, you might say.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  So it was a combination of the media frenzy, the time. And also, let's face it, ancient Egypt is just such a visually appealing civilisation. It's a civilisation that produced great art, but it's also the exoticism of Egypt. It's the sheer antiquity of Egypt. And I think all of these ingredients just combined to make it the gift that kept on giving as far as the media were concerned. And it became a global sensation in a way that no discovery really before or since ever had.

• 38:57Tyler Cowen?

  There's the old Hollywood movie, The Mummy. There was the Egyptian theatre in Hollywood, which I think is maybe still there. Do you see anything like this obsession coming back today? Are there any signs of that?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  Not to the same degree as there was in the 1920s, when Egyptian themes were picked up, you know, in almost every domain, from architecture, as you say, to jewellery, design and costume and songs and films. But the Egyptian influence is still one of the kind of traditions that artists and designers do draw from time to time, whether it's the Luxor Hotel in Las Vegas or, you know, Egyptian elements that are popping up in art and design. But it doesn't have the same worldwide appeal that it did in the 1920s.

• 39:39Tyler Cowen?

  If you think about current Egypt, and surely you've spent a lot of time there, knowing a great deal about the distant past, does it give you any insight or does it just feel quite unconnected to you?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Both and, I would say. So particularly when you're out of the cities, in the countryside, in a small Egyptian village, you will see patterns of subsistence, of farming. Architecture of mud brick houses that has changed very little in three, four, five thousand years. So life, the rhythm of life, the patterns of life in a rural Egyptian community are still very recognisable from the days of the pharaohs. But contrast that with, you know, the cities of Cairo, Alexandria, these are big, modern metropolises that don't seem to have very much to do with or very many visible signs of the ancient world. So it's both and. I think, you know, for me as an Egyptologist, I love getting into into

• 40:32Speaker 01

  the rural parts of Egypt because there one can almost feel the past as still very much present.

• 40:37Tyler Cowen?

  What's the most interesting rural part for you to go to?

• 40:40Speaker 01

  I love Middle Egypt, which is the stretch of the Nile Valley between Cairo and Luxor. It's not very much visited by tourists. There's a rhythm of life there which is slower than in the big cities. It's a place where the past feels much more tangible. It's scenically very beautiful, cliffs coming very close to the river's edge. Yeah, I love Middle Egypt.

• 41:02Tyler Cowen?

  And how important is ancient Egypt as an object of political display today? So the Egyptian government, obviously that has been contested. And insofar as a lineage can be claimed or new discoveries shown off, or the new museum in Cairo, to what extent does it bolster the claims of the current rulers? Or is that more or less irrelevant?

• 41:21Speaker 01

  I think it's a really good question. Egypt is a proud nation and the Egyptians are a proud people. And I think they are very proud of their past and like to share, I think, with the world, the achievements of the Egyptian civilizations of the past. So I think they're, I think they draw great sustenance and great, a great sense of their own position in the world from the ancient forbears. I mean, put it very prosaically, of course, tourism is is absolutely critical to the Egyptian economy. There are literally millions of people dependent upon the tourist dollar. And those tourists largely come to Egypt for its ancient remains. Some go to the Red Sea for scuba diving, but most come

• 42:04Speaker 01

  to Egypt to admire its temples and its tombs and its pyramids. So it is both a source of national pride and a source of national income.

• 42:10Tyler Cowen?

  For our final segment, just a few questions about you and your career. What is it you had to learn to do what it is you've been doing?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  I've had a pretty, well, I was going to say circuitous kind of career. I've done lots of different things. I suppose if there's a common thread to everything I've done, whether it's in my writing or in my leadership roles, it's all about communication. I love to take a lot of information, distill it and to communicate it in a way that hopefully is accessible and relatable. And I guess that's the common thread. I like words. I've always loved words since I was a kid. And manipulating words, whether it's, you know, writing a book or writing a strategy, it's all about words at the end of the day and how you tell a story.

• 42:50Tyler Cowen?

  And what languages did you have to learn?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  So I can get by in French, German, a modicum of Italian. I can make myself understood in Arabic. Those are the modern languages. Then in terms of ancient languages, ancient Egyptian, of course. I dabbled a little bit in Sumerian and Akkadian and Hittite once upon a time, but I've forgotten much of that now.

• 43:10Tyler Cowen?

  How did you end up doing development work for Clare College, Cambridge?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a, that's a kind of long story, but yeah, I think I would say that research in the humanities can be quite a solitary occupation, unlike in the sciences where scientists are working in labs in teams. In the arts and humanities, more often than not, you're on your own in a library. And I enjoy that, but I also enjoy working with people and in bigger teams of people. And so I was able at a fairly early stage in my career to kind of, to ride both horses, to work in bigger teams in a much more outward facing role whilst maintaining my research and my interest in ancient Egypt. And it's been a great combination.

• 43:49Tyler Cowen?

  How has that changed your scholarship, having the connection to the external word world, seeing what's relevant, seeing what other people think is relevant?

• 43:57Speaker 01

  I think it's helped me, I hope it's helped me to write for a broader readership. If I look back at some of the first things that I wrote as an academic, they were pretty satiric, pretty dry and dusty, as a lot of academic journal articles tend to be. I now try to write in a style that is well grounded in research, but accessible to anybody who's interested in the ancient world. And I think that has come out of needing to be much more outward facing.

• 44:25Tyler Cowen?

  And you worked for a while as a dean in Fiji, is that correct?

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I headed up the National University in Fiji for a period. That was pretty exciting, especially as it coincided with the COVID-19 pandemic. So that brought a whole set of challenges. Again, you know, common thread being one of communication. Leadership is really all about communication. And I was also able to indulge my love of languages by learning some Fijian as well, which is, which is a fascinating language.

• 44:53Tyler Cowen?

  Before my final question, just another plug for your last book, The Last Dynasty: Ancient Egypt from Alexander the Great to Cleopatra. I enjoyed reading all of your books. And finally, what will you do next?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I've just finished my next book, actually, which is on another aspect of the ancient world. I can't say much more than that because I've signed an NDA with a Hollywood documentary producer. So watch this space. And it may be coming to a screen near you as well as to a bookstore near you fairly soon.

• 45:22Tyler Cowen?

  Toby Wilkinson, thank you very much.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me.

• 45:28Tyler Cowen?

  Thanks for listening to Conversations with Tyler. You can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. If you like this podcast, please consider giving us a rating and leaving a review. This helps other listeners find the show. On Twitter, I'm at Tyler Cowen, and the show is at Cowen Convos. Until next time, please keep listening and learning.