#1520 Tarun Gupta | Will Stablecoins Be Bigger Than Bitcoin?

Tarun Gupta is the Founder & CEO of Coinshift. In this conversation we talk about what is going on with stablecoins, how big they can get, why so many people are trying to launch stablecoins, and the impact of yield-bearing stablecoins around the world. ========================Franzy makes franchise ownership accessible for dreamers, go-getters, and investors alike. With the AI-powered Franzy Fit Score, match with the best brands for your financials, experience, and goals. Explore franchise options, get pre-qualified, and access expert coaching to guide your journey. Ready to own a business? Visit https://franzy.com/pomp today!=======================Xapo Bank, the world’s first fully licensed Bitcoin-enabled bank, offers military-grade security with an unmatched blend of physical and digital security, as well as pioneering regulatory oversight, so your funds are always protected. Beyond secure storage, they enable you to grow and use your Bitcoin. Earn daily interest in Bitcoin, spend with zero FX fees using a global card, and make instant payments via the Lightning Network for unrivalled access and convenience. Visit https://www.xapobank.com/pomp to join.=======================Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/=======================View 10k+ open startup jobs:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's going on guys? Today, we've got an excellent episode with Tarun Gupta. He is the founder and CEO of CoinShift. They have created a new type of yield-bearing stablecoin that I think you're going to be interested in hearing about. In this conversation, we talk about what's going on with stablecoins? How big can they get? Why are so many people trying to launch these stablecoins?

• 0:47Anthony Pompliano?

  What the profound impact of people actually holding yield-bearing stablecoins could be all around the world to eight-plus-billion people? And of course, Tarun explains what they're doing, how they're doing it, what the risks are, and how they're trying to mitigate those risks. So I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Tarun Gupta.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:26Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:09Anthony Pompliano?

  So whether you're just starting or you're looking to expand, Franzie's got everything you need. Head over to franzy.com/pomp today and start your journey to business ownership. Again, that's franzy.com/pomp to start your journey to business ownership. Today's episode is brought to you by Zappo Bank. This is where eligible members can unlock the power of Bitcoin without selling it. Do you need cash fast? With Zappo Bank's Bitcoin-backed loans, you can borrow up to 20% of your Bitcoin's value in just a few minutes, and you can do so with low interest rates and zero fees. Here's the best part. You keep your Bitcoin, meaning you get to watch your holdings grow as the price of Bitcoin increases. Whether you're looking to buy a house, fund your child's education, or seize an exciting investment opportunity,

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• 3:34Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Tarun, I thought a great place to start this conversation is, you know, when I got into Bitcoin, I saw Bitcoin as a medium of exchange. It was a store of value, and eventually everything's going to be priced in Bitcoin, and you're going to get this hyper Bitcoinization. And one of the things that maybe I've changed my mind on is, at least in the short to medium term, Bitcoin really has dominated what I would call the global store of value use case, right? That is the thing that people are understanding. They buy it, they hold it, never sell your Bitcoin, it's going to be worth more in the future. And it's done a fantastic job of not only protecting your purchasing power, but actually increasing that purchasing power over time. What has changed and what the new information was that really changed my mind is that there has been the rise of stablecoins for that medium of exchange use case. And so you all recently created this stablecoin,

• 4:30Anthony Pompliano?

  and I think you got a lot of thoughts on it. But maybe we could start with this idea that like, you know, Bitcoin has got the store of value. Stablecoins seem to be coming more of like that banking infrastructure. How do you look at stablecoins' role and like what's happening here?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. So, so the way we see this is like for the last 10 years, right? As you said, Bitcoin has been like pretty successful as a store of value. And that's why everyone thinks it as replacement or or an alternative to gold reserves, right? But at the same time, what we have seen is like the world has changed into an internet economy. And and the e-money, which we call it like the the banking e-money is being like used by everyone very easily, right? And then the emergence of new banks, for example, like Revolut, Brex or Mercury, has really decreased the barrier and democratized the access to financial services across the world, right? With just internet money.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  And after this Bitcoin blockchain or innovation, what we have seen is like because of Ethereum blockchain, you can really program the other use cases, right? And and this made the emergence of these like two major stablecoins like USDC and USDT became like the the ninety five percent of the stablecoin market today, which is at $200 billion, right? So, think of like, let's define like what is a stablecoin even means, right? So, so basically, essentially, it's like a dollar being put on a blockchain, right? So, so what Circle has been trying to do in the last 10 years is like, can you just bring dollars on the blockchain?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Very simple use case, and it becomes like a simple money use case. And then it merits the properties of blockchain. What what is the property of a blockchain is just this distributed ledger, right? So, what the entire trade fire today is working on this problem statement of reconciliation and settlement, right? Why your money moves slow if you think what the architecture of money is just dependent on this reconciliation and settlement layers? And the more you have, basically, the amount of money, the more risk you are taking while reconciling, right? And this specific property is if you dedicate to a decentralized ledger like Ethereum, then you solve this risk layer, right?

• 6:50Speaker 02

  And if you if you have this risk layer solved, then you can move money. Irrespective of the amount and the speed of almost blockchain, right? So this is like a fundamental disruption and that's why USDC is has been growing. It's almost like sixty billion right now and and USPT is like almost more than hundred billion dollars. Right? That proves the use case. But what these stablecoins are doing under the hood is basically they are just keeping these reserves. For example, in case of USDC, they're keeping majority of the reserves in overnight treasuries or in other government bonds or there's like a reserve requirement, you can say, right?

• 7:29Speaker 02

  And their entire promise is when you hold USDC, they will give you one dollar when you want to redeem it. And that is that has been their promise for a very, very long time. And and and because the regulations have not been like super sorted for a very long time. Obviously, you need to trust their auditor reports and everything. But yeah, I think this this has been like the true use case so far. And now we are seeing basically because these stablecoin issuers are making money from their reserves. Right? And they are not sort of easily can distribute the yield. For example, in US, you cannot just distribute the yield generated from cash equivalents like overnight treasuries. It is not legal right now. It is not regulated.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  And that's why we have seen the emergence of other stablecoins, which is like yield-bearing stablecoins, where users want to get the yield from the underlying asset. And we can talk more on that. But yeah, just to summarize as like the the use case is very simple is money. Lot of people have seen they are generating lot of yield under the hood. They want to take a portion of that yield, right? And there is a lot of demand of of that yield-bearing stablecoin. And that's why the last five years, if we see like there is a huge competition to these two stablecoins. Still, they have been like the strongest, but there are like hundred-plus stablecoins exist. And out of that, there are emergence of stablecoins like Athena, which is at six billion right now.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  And and Sky, which is like Maker Dow, almost at eight billion dollars right now. So they are also growing and we can touch more on that. But yeah, I think these are like the distinctions and that's why it is working.

• 9:08Anthony Pompliano?

  So you all are building like a yield based kind of value proposition for folks. And one of the things that I always think about is in the United States of America, we're spoiled. We get yield, right? You go, you put your money in the bank, the bank holds on to it for you. They'll give it back to you when you want it. You don't worry about them taking it from you. They'll pay you some yield, although in certain accounts it's very low and other accounts it may be a little bit higher. But this concept of compounding and yield generation, all this kind of stuff exists. If you go in many places around the world, let alone putting your money in the bank and them giving it back to you, that actually may not happen, right? There's not kind of that strong of a clear rule of law. But this concept of yield can be life changing.

• 9:49Anthony Pompliano?

  If you now can save money in a asset like dollars that are better than your local currency and you can then go ahead and get yield, that feels like it's pretty profound. And so talk a little bit as to how these yield bearing stable coins are working? Are people getting more stable coins? Or is it just like increasing the value more like a stock buyback type situation? Like, like walk me through exactly how this works and how you guys have built it.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  No, this is a beautiful question. So, so think of right, once you as an institution or a business, you just start keeping these stable coins right on chain. So you are on chain right now, right? And once you hold this, like what you can do after that, right? And at the same time, the underlying stablecoin issuer is generating a lot of heat, which is not being passed to you. So the, the, the next thing comes, once you have these stable coins on chain, the next thing comes is credit, right? Everyone wants to generate some kind of yield on top of it. And that's why the emergence of lending protocols in Ethereum just became like so popular, like Aave, Morpho, and there are like a couple of other lending protocols. So users are sort of generating an additional yield through these stable coins by putting into a lending tool.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  And from there, the BTC, the Bitcoin holders or Ethereum holders can come. They borrow these stable coins and the end user gets like an IOU similar to bank. It's like a USDC in case of Morpho, sorry, in case of Aave. It's like an Aave token and a USDC is representing your USDC that is lent out to Ethereum, Bitcoin and other collateral holders. And that borrow yield is a real yield because there is a real demand for USDC in the borrow side. You generate this additional yield, very similar to your bank, basically, right? So, so there is a huge. A combination of these regulated sort of stablecoins with the lending markets and that's how the end user is able to sort of generate lot of it.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  And then this was like the similar concept, if you know Maker Dow, Maker Dow is just does not dependent on, in the initial days, it was not dependent on any regulated entity or stablecoin issuers. So what they did is just come up with your Bitcoin and you will be able to, sorry, come up with your Ethereum and then now BTC as well, you will be able to mint the DAI directly and the BTC holder is just borrowing the DAI, right? So any DAI is in circulation is backed by over collateralized Bitcoin or Ethereum, right? So this is another way to actually create a stablecoin. But what is interesting about this, the generation of yield is the borrowing fees, right?

• 12:26Speaker 02

  So what they did is they introduced this saving rate module around 2020 and what you can do is you deposit your DAI, it's like a saving account, you put it into S DAI, which is saving DAI and you get this borrowing fees as a yield. So think about a risk profile now, I'm a Bitcoin holder, I minted DAI, right? And DAI is back to a dollar, just on the ticker side and then you put this DAI into S DAI and then you start generating yield on your Bitcoin in a sense, right? So it's a very interesting way to really launch these stablecoins which can pass on the yield to the direct user. So the method we have seen last five years is just this additional staking layer.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  So you have this money layer and then you stake it somewhere to the lending protocol or saving rate module and then you pass on the yield, right? And then I think last three years, what we have seen on the yield use case is having this delta neutral stat, all hedge funds are generally delta neutral, right? So let's say you have $10,000 worth of ETH, you are already long in this position as a collateral, you can go to purse exchanges like Binance and all, you can put like a one is to one delta neutral position on the short side. So this delta neutral position. Athena like player has tokenized that and brought it into DeFi and they are calling it like a stablecoin. We call it like a suitable circle coins in in in coin shift where but

• 13:50Speaker 02

  end of the day it's representing a delta neutral position, right? And the more the market is doing the long, basically the more yield you can generate, right? From the underlying collateral and that has been passed to the end user. So, so these yield are just to summarize, there are two sources of yield so far. One is the lending side. I'm talking like a real source, not like these tokens and all. Real source is lending. The second is delta neutral position. Both has very different risk profile, right? On the lending side, you are trusting the protocol you are using. You're trusting their risk managers if they are allocating the right collateral or not, right? Or on the delta neutral stage, you are trusting that issuer who's dealing with the custodians to

• 14:35Speaker 02

  have your collateral and dealing with the centralized exchanges, right? So, so I think these are the two ways and it is getting pretty hot these days like in terms of generating these huge yields and we have seen for up to thirty percent of yield on USDC because of these two reasons like lending protocols and and margin trading basically.

• 14:57Anthony Pompliano?

  When you see very large yields, right? You know, over ten percent, twenty percent, whatever. Obviously, there has to be some risk that's associated with it. And how do you think about what those risks are and then what you or others are doing to mitigate those risks?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so honestly, like as long as you were trusting, let's say on USDC, that is the first risk level, right? Basically, and then on top of this, you're trusting the lending protocol, right? So our way is like at thirty billion plus in AUM. So you can say, okay, like there has been like a good trust and they have been not hacked so far. So there is a smart contract risk you are taking and and and then their risk manager, you're taking the risk of their risk manager because you cannot just say, okay, it's a smart contract. End of the day, you're reallocating the positions, right? So there is a risk manager and there is a DAO and how centralized or decentralized the DAO, it's always like a question, right? And it is not regulated and and there is no bankruptcy

• 15:52Speaker 02

  protection, right? You have in the banking. So, so overall, these are the risks you are taking and then you are taking the risk of liquidation. So let's say somebody is borrowing from Bitcoin, USDC.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Right, let's say there is a downturn in the market. So you need to liquidate the position, right? If you don't do that, you end up in a bad debt, basically for your protocol. And that's why your collateral needs to be very, very liquid in the market, right? So you are taking typical all lending risk. Blockchain just brings the transparency, right? And over collateralization through a protocol. But every other risk is pretty much similar to lending risks, right? And in case of delta neutral strategy, you're taking the risk of exchanges. And we have seen exchanges go, you know, down in the last cycle as well, right? FTX and all, and then you're taking the custodian risk as well, right? So because they are taking the custody and this delta neutral strategy is not regulated at the same time.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  So all these are like additional risks and I would love to like talk about like how we are mitigating and how we work with our stablecoin, but yeah, these are the risks. Explain your stablecoin. Yeah, so, so we launched CSUSDL, our own yield-bearing stablecoin, which is backed by Paxos issued USDL. So Paxos is the largest, one of the largest stablecoin in Asia after like Circle and then Tether. And they work with PayPal, Mastercard, Stripe, as you see, no? So, so they, they work with Abu Dhabi government and they regulated this T-bills, like treasury bills yield out of Abu Dhabi. So what, what does it mean as like?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  They're literally representing the risk-free rate of treasury bills every single day on a blockchain, right? And this is like real innovation. And in case of worst case, right? Let's say Paxos does go down, still you have protection from FSR out of Abu Dhabi. So it's a fully regulated stablecoin and they pass the yield through a rebasing mechanism. So every single day, your USDL goes more in supply. So if one USDL today, it will go like 1.0 something and that T-bill is accumulating basically, right? So what we are doing is we work with Paxos as a distributor, right? And, and after passing this yield, they take the management fees and we take like a distributor fees, right?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  We make like twenty bips on every USDL minted through us. So think of CSUSDL is fully collateralized by USDL under the hood. And then we are combining the second source of the yield is like a lending protocol. So what we are doing is we are lending out this USDL to Bitcoin holders and Ethereum holders today. And how we are managing the risk of that, we work with Stickhouse Financials. So Stickhouse Financials work with Mekar Dao with their entire RWA program of two billion plus. So they are one of the most conservative asset manager out there. So they manage the risk of reallocating all these positions. And at the same time, this entire system is working on Morpho.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  So Morpho is another lending protocol, which actually gives you an immutable system where, where they can't do anything with your market. It's an immutable market. So if you say, okay, the Bitcoin holders will borrow from us, right? So Morpho cannot do anything in that. It's a, it's a very protocol driven thing and then Stickhouse can, can allocate based on that. So yeah, I think the risk is lending side, which is also very transparent from the Morpho protocol. It has like six billion in AUM and then the other risk is the Paxos and, and this Abu Dhabi sort of reserve management and all that. But at the same time, you are lending, you are getting two yield components, right? One is the, the T bill rate on a daily basis and the lending yield block by block, right?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  And this unique composition does not exist today by default, right? And we don't ask you to stake or, or do anything extra. You can directly hold CSUSDL through an exchange, a decentralized exchange and you will be getting these two components of the yield by default. And there is one more thing, just I want to mention, is the depositor risk, right? So let's say you're an institution and you're putting like let's say 10 million into our stablecoin. And you don't like how the collateral is managed, right, by Stikhouse. So there is a seven day time lock period which we have. It means whenever the new collateral is added, the depositor can veto the rights to remove that market and take their funds back.

• 20:19Speaker 02

  So this kind of system does not exist outside, you know, CSU's deal, like our stablecoin.

• 20:25Anthony Pompliano?

  And right now, like what stats can you share about how it's going so far? What yield people are earning, where these people are, what they're doing with it?

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so overall CoinShift has been like a treasury management solution for the past three years. We manage over like 1 billion plus in, on Nosisave, like a multi-sig account through only CoinShift by working with like all the largest institutions like Awe, Gitcoin, Uma. They are our clients, right? And what, what we are doing in the CSU's deal, we launched in January 7th. And so far we are at almost like 37 million plus in, in the AUM of the stablecoin. And are offering us like largely for institutions because we want to reach to at least 100 million dollars in, in total value lock before we start pitching it to businesses on chain. All right, so everyone wants to like trust the asset which is at least trusted by the larger institutions.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  So, so that's how this trust thing works, right? So, so right now the largest market makers like Amber Group or GSR, they are, they are already put CSU's deal on their balance sheet, like large liquid funds and large hedge funds are already using it. And we are pretty confident to cross it to 70 million like almost in next two weeks. So yeah, we are going very, very fast and their primary reason is basically the risk is very well known. The risk is very conservative and everything is not controlled. The CoinShift cannot do anything from the assets. Anywhere it's Paxos and, and the, the Morpho protocol, right? So that is the highest appealing part.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  And the yield right now, the market is even down, we are still yielding at like 5.2%. Basically where the 4% is coming from the treasury bills almost and that the rest is coming from the lending side.

• 22:11Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you see this kind of conversation with these businesses, with these corporations and institutions, what are they looking for? Are they looking for better rails? Are they looking for higher yield? Something else? What is the value proposition to them?

• 22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think let's go one by one. So for liquid fund, for example, right? Let's say you have USDC on your balance sheet. So right now, these institutions think USDC as their exit stablecoin. So they do something risky, let's say you're putting money somewhere and they want to come back to USDC, right? Rather than dollars. So can you build a risk profile which is closer to USDC? That was like our value proposition because that's why we work with Paxos, right? So, so I think what they're looking for is like from lowest risk to highest risk, different instruments to put their money on. And, and we come at the lowest risk side. So recently Morpho executed like a third party audit on the credit rate,

• 23:12Speaker 02

  like overall ratings of all these, you know, vaults. And we are like one of the highest rated A plus rating in terms of the risk, underlying risk disclosures, right? So the risk profile matters a lot for these institutions. And we come under a lowest risk site as compared to delta neutral strategies and all. And the other reason is like CSUSDL has 96.5% L L T V, right? Which is very, very difficult for a lot of these stablecoins to get that highest loan to value ratio. And because of our risk profile is different, like people are willing to give loan on this collateral. So, yeah.

• 23:52Anthony Pompliano?

  And then how do you think about regulation of this stuff? You mentioned that, you know, there's some stuff that may be specific to your local jurisdiction, but how do you think globally and then also locally?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think in terms of US, they are just getting started with the regulation, I would say. It's, it's pretty warming up and. I think the the payment use case, the payment focused stablecoins, uh it is going to be like fully regulated as as the bill has has been passed, right? After that, I think uh almost all fintechs either can use directly USDC, uh right? Because it can comply with the entire requirements. But they are not letting like this yield distribution directly to the end users in US yet. It is not regulated at all. So I will say it's a step by step process because previously it was like little, uh you know.

• 24:40Speaker 02

  So think about from the regulation perspective is already a a uh a threat to the banking infrastructure, right? So the first use case is just have the payment use case and then then I think I'm pretty confident like over the years. Everyone will realize, okay, passing the yield will make your dollars more dominant uh to the end users. But outside US, yes, you can do that. So for example, Abu Dhabi in Bermuda and you can build these kind of instruments where you can buy the T-bills and pass the yield to the end users. So these governments are utilizing their underlying reserves to pass that yield, right? So the regulation is pretty becoming competitive. I would say US is just getting started and and uh because it's competitive. End of the day, if if people are holding more US reserves in Abu Dhabi government, right?

• 25:25Speaker 02

  The other insurers will also feel right, we want to provide the service to our users. So it's very competitive. And regarding Europe, I think they are the most stringent, I feel like in terms of strictness. They have like lot of capital controls and and uh even on the payment use case and the reserve requirements are pretty tight. So in a sense, I feel uh it's good for the industry because it will bring more sophisticated players to actually have consumer protection for the end user. So I think we are in this time of the industry where you cannot just, you know, build any random uh instruments and and you know pass the entire yield through your uh token and and you know.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  So you just need to get into the the real regulation and and yeah, I think Brex and Stripe and all these players are making major investments in stablecoins.

• 26:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I think that makes uh that makes a ton of sense. What is the biggest challenge for you moving forward?

• 26:21Speaker 02

  I think first is regulation for sure. If I think countries like US and others like regulate this yield bearing instruments, it becomes so easy to really, you know, like launch CSUSDL there. But right now it is not available for US citizens. It is only for offshore and that's why we only work with institutions because they have these offshore setups. Right? Very easily they can acquire the asset, right? So the real challenge is liquidity. How do you put the liquidity in the beginning and how do you create on chain liquidity, right? And how do you create mints and redemptions at scale? So Paxos has like a great experience in working with PayPal to build that entire infrastructure to scale.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Right? Because there is a regulatory requirement, you can't just mint and redeem that easily. So yeah, I think that they have been huge help in facilitating all this. So liquidity and then overall this regulation is the biggest challenge I would say to scale this back.

• 27:20Anthony Pompliano?

  How big do you think stablecoins are going to be? You know, we see Bitcoins at 1.5, 1.6 trillion dollars in market cap. Total crypto is, you know, call it 3 trillion or so. Stablecoins are 200 billion. Should we expect stablecoins to be even bigger than Bitcoin collectively or how do you think about it?

• 27:36Speaker 02

  The strange thing is everyone I know right now wants to launch a stablecoin. So even TredFi or DeFi, right, does not matter. I think very clearly the e-money should be like move to USDC or like these kind of payment use cases, right? So we will definitely see like trillions or dollars coming in the next five years. 100% like for sure, this is like inevitable after this stablecoin bills passes, right? And then I think it depends like if that is successful, then all other yield instruments, regulated yield instruments will come because once your money is on chain, right? What will do with that? You need to build credit instruments for that, right?

• 28:21Speaker 02

  And that's how the financial system works. So it's like, you know, saying when the internet happens in the early days, okay, a lot of people just believed, you know, cash because it's tangible and all that, right? But eventually everything moved into internet, right? So yeah, I think the finance should work on stablecoins and that is the use case. That's why these countries are regulating it. So we should expect like trillions or dollars.

• 28:45Anthony Pompliano?

  That makes a ton of sense to me. Where can we find more information about CoinShift?

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you can reach out on Twitter. It's like zero expansion. You can reach out to me like Tarun Gupta 14751 on Twitter.

• 28:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing. I'm very fascinated with this idea of the yield-bearing stablecoins. You guys have been out at the forefront of working on this. And I think you got some pretty unique ideas around your thesis of stablecoins, how big you'll think they'll get, and then also the infrastructure that's needed to be able to build this. So I appreciate you taking the time to come talk to us today, Tarun, and we'll definitely do it again in the future.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here.