90: Tough As They Come. Travis Mills. Soldier. Warrior. Hero.

0:00:00 - Opening. 0:08:38 - Travis Mills 0:29:22 - First Deployment. 0:36:57 - R&R... And Romance. 0:41:31 - Re-Deploy. 1:05:22 - Home for Leave. 1:26:33 - Re-Deployment. 1:39:49 - Wounded by an IED. 2:03:25 - Recovery. Pain. Family Support. 2:22:28 - Moving to Maine. 2:24:12 - Starting the Travis Mills Foundation. 2:27:34 - Final Thoughts. 2:32:46 - Support, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, Origin Brand Apparel http://www.originmaine.com, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. http://amzn.to/2szgaEj Extreme Ownership Muster 004 http://www.extremeownership.com in San Diego. 2:53:54 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast, number 90. With Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening.

• 0:14Jocko Willink?

  As my wife Tori mentioned, this past week has been one of the most challenging of my life.

• 0:23Jocko Willink?

  I want to say thanks to my friends and family for your support. You really have no idea how much a few words of encouragement can mean when you are at a time and place like this.

• 0:35Jocko Willink?

  Thanks again.

• 0:38Jocko Willink?

  My platoon is in a very active area of operations in southern Afghanistan. Our mission is to close with and destroy the enemy. There is no outside the wire here because there is no wire.

• 0:54Jocko Willink?

  My boys are simply always on alert.

• 0:58Jocko Willink?

  We haven't had a shower since we've been in Afghanistan. We've run non-stop missions and have been very successful at accomplishing these without experiencing any injuries to our own.

• 1:14Jocko Willink?

  I'm just trying to paint a picture of life here. And not trying to make you feel sorry for us.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  Trust me, I belong here with these guys and we are a family.

• 1:29Jocko Willink?

  Rather, I want to paint a picture because I'd like to tell you about Travis Mills.

• 1:36Jocko Willink?

  I know you don't know him, but it would mean a lot to me to be able to spread his story.

• 1:44Jocko Willink?

  My platoon's string of missions without injury came to an abrupt and violent end last week when we hit a dismounted IED during combat operations.

• 1:55Jocko Willink?

  I had three paratroopers injured from the blast. One was minor. One was severe.

• 2:05Jocko Willink?

  And one was simply beyond words.

• 2:10Jocko Willink?

  The most severe injury was sustained by my weapon squad leader Travis Big Mills.

• 2:19Jocko Willink?

  I'd like to take the opportunity to tell you about him.

• 2:23Jocko Willink?

  Even under the conditions that I've described, he is the best of us. He was the biggest guy in the platoon and has the biggest heart to go with it. He was eager to please and always cheered us up.

• 2:38Jocko Willink?

  He led from the front and was injured because of it.

• 2:42Jocko Willink?

  He preferred that he take the injury over any man in his squad.

• 2:49Jocko Willink?

  He was the most fearless person I have ever seen in combat.

• 2:56Jocko Willink?

  When we weren't in combat, he was great to have around. He woke up every morning and sang a bunch of different songs to us. Usually Kesha, or Britney Spears, or the songs of some other girl band.

• 3:12Jocko Willink?

  We had this ritual. Anytime we finished a patrol where we had a firefight, once we returned to the strong point, he'd run to the front of the formation and sing songs about the 82nd Airborne.

• 3:24Jocko Willink?

  He would do dance gestures and all. He even did it for the brigade commander when he came to visit.

• 3:32Jocko Willink?

  It was a big hit.

• 3:35Jocko Willink?

  I laughed at how, or he laughed at how serious I am, and how I don't like to be touched.

• 3:43Jocko Willink?

  So, he made it his personal mission to make me laugh. Usually this involved an overly aggressive and a little too intimate man hug, followed by a middle school style dance where he'd grind on me.

• 3:59Jocko Willink?

  He kept me sane.

• 4:02Jocko Willink?

  I laughed at his antics constantly.

• 4:05Jocko Willink?

  In combat, there is no one we would rather have been with.

• 4:11Jocko Willink?

  He risked his life to save others constantly, and I can recall two times specifically where he literally saved me.

• 4:20Jocko Willink?

  Needless to say, I took his injury hard, including the personal guilt that a leader feels when he is responsible for his men.

• 4:29Jocko Willink?

  So I wanted to tell you these things.

• 4:34Jocko Willink?

  Everyone is asking how I'm doing. Yes, I am hurting. But you know I'm gonna be okay.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  More importantly, Travis is going to be okay.

• 4:49Jocko Willink?

  The truth is, I've seen things here so terrible that I'll never be able to put them into words. Travis's injury being at the top of the list.

• 5:00Jocko Willink?

  But I've also seen things here so wonderful that I'll never be able to put them into words either. I know that sounds crazy, but it's true.

• 5:11Jocko Willink?

  How do you put into words this spirit like the one I've just described in Big Mills?

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  The reality of it is that I have the honor of leading people like Travis.

• 5:25Jocko Willink?

  There are many more in my platoon just like him.

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  So while I've seen some things I'd like to never talk about again, I've seen just as many that I'll spend the rest of my life trying to explain to anyone who will listen.

• 5:43Jocko Willink?

  I've seen a tremendous love and care between brothers that have only each other to rely on.

• 5:51Jocko Willink?

  And have only one care.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  To bring each other home.

• 6:00Jocko Willink?

  It's a selfless, deep, everlasting bond that I consider myself lucky and absolutely privileged to be a part of.

• 6:11Jocko Willink?

  Thank you so much again for your support. But know that I am fine.

• 6:17Jocko Willink?

  I am exactly where I need to be right now.

• 6:22Jocko Willink?

  My family here is taking care of each other. And we will persevere as one.

• 6:35Jocko Willink?

  Now that is a

• 6:41Jocko Willink?

  letter that was written to friends and family at home from Lieutenant Zack Lewis. Commander of First Platoon Bravo Troop.

• 6:55Jocko Willink?

  For Seventy Third Cavalry Squadron, Fourth Brigade Combat Team of the Eighty Second Airborne Division.

• 7:05Jocko Willink?

  The All-Americans.

• 7:09Jocko Willink?

  And I think that letter describes Staff Sergeant Travis Mills as only a fellow platoon member could.

• 7:22Jocko Willink?

  Explaining his unbelievably positive attitude.

• 7:28Jocko Willink?

  His courage under fire.

• 7:31Jocko Willink?

  And his unwavering leadership.

• 7:38Jocko Willink?

  And tonight,

• 7:41Jocko Willink?

  I am honored beyond words to have the man that Lieutenant Lewis spoke of. Travis Mills here with us to talk through his experiences on the battlefield and off.

• 8:02Jocko Willink?

  Travis, welcome to the show.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Good evening. Thank you for having me.

• 8:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, now, I'm gonna say this upfront. I was a little nervous about having you on because this show has a reputation of being very serious.

• 8:23Jocko Willink?

  And very solemn. And I know that you have an issue with both of those terms in a broad perspective. So for those of you that haven't heard anything from Travis before,

• 8:37Jocko Willink?

  there's not a lot of serious stuff that Travis does. So, um, serious comedian and hilarious guy with an incredible attitude. Um, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for coming on.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I'll do my best to be serious. Um, I think my LT described it very well in that letter he wrote to his family. I, I made sure that I kept the spirits up and I would hug him and everything like that, but under fire, I was a whole different person.

• 9:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I thought he did a great job of capturing, you know, what everyone's feeling over there. And I didn't, I didn't go in Afghanistan, but what's just similar to what we'd feel in Iraq. Um, and you know, I talk about this a lot about the fact that this is why guys miss combat, you know, you miss combat, even though it's when you're over there and you, you're in this crappy situation and you're like, oh, I can't wait to get home. But then when you get home, you have that little thing in the back of your mind that says, that misses that camaraderie, which only comes from that place. So he did a good job of describing that. So I think to, to understand

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  where a man ends up, we kind of got to understand where a man comes from. So going back to the beginning, the, the young Travis Mills, the young Travis Mills and you know, how you grew up and all that. Um, talk a little bit about that.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, uh, I'm from Michigan. When I go around and I speak throughout the nation, I always say, is anybody from Ohio? And before I tell them from Michigan, I yell, OH, and then they yell, I O, and they get real passionate and then I yell sucks. Um, you know, and I get, I get some booze, but I'm from a small town in Michigan, um, right around the thumb area. I grew up playing football, basketball and baseball. I have an older sister, younger brother. Um, my parents are phenomenal people and you know, just good wholesome values. And then I went to college to play football, uh, after high school was over and. Decided that probably wasn't the right time for me to go to college and take it serious. So I went to the

• 10:47Jocko Willink?

  So, so, hold on. So you were playing three sports in, in high school?

• 10:51Speaker 01

  In high school.

• 10:51Jocko Willink?

  And I, I got a quote from your book in here, by the way. Um, I'm gonna read it.

• 10:57Jocko Willink?

  "I was the fun kid who lived at the end of your block. I was big for my age and for a lot of boyhood years, I had a big gap between my two front teeth."

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 11:08Jocko Willink?

  Now, is that a negative thing?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Um, I, no, not at all.

• 11:13Jocko Willink?

  Okay, cuz some of us at the table here still have a gap between our front two teeth. I'm just saying.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I, on the sides now, right? Yeah, I do. But I

• 11:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, "I liked to wear my hea- my hair shaved and a buzz cut, particularly in the summers when it got hot. With that Opie Taylor kinda look, I fit into small-town America." And you did karate, by the way.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  You're looking at the 1993 Karate State Champion of Michigan.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I was six, but

• 11:43Jocko Willink?

  That's a, isn't that a competitive age bracket for karate championships?

• 11:47Speaker 01

  I was spinning back kick kids right over wrestling mats, breaking ribs.

• 11:50Jocko Willink?

  Uh, actually, you had a, you had a contest here. I'm gonna, I'm gonna read about it. "It wasn't all easy. In one of my first karate matches, I got kicked hard in the sternum and couldn't breathe. I gasped, panicked, and tried to suck air. When my normal breathing didn't return immediately, I raised my hand and forfeited the match."

• 12:09Jocko Willink?

  I'm kinda disappointed. "My dad rushed over. Travis, what are you doing? You forfeit a match. You ne- you never forfeit a match, no matter how hard you're hurting. You never quit, ever."

• 12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad was disappointed in me too. Uh, so I never did again. And then I just, I don't know. I just went hard the rest of that, after that. I just, I don't know. My dad taught me good values. My mom took karate with me. Um

• 12:32Jocko Willink?

  So, don't mess with your mom either.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  No, no. Well, yeah. She's, she's five foot two, like 125 pounds.

• 12:40Jocko Willink?

  How did, how did she produce your big ass?

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

• 12:43Jocko Willink?

  How tall was your dad?

• 12:44Speaker 01

  Uh, like 5' 11".

• 12:46Jocko Willink?

  No kidding?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I was six foot three when I was at my walk-around weight. And, uh, the first match I ever had, I had a girl and she beat me cuz I wouldn't hit her.

• 12:56Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  And then I was cleared to like hit girls and I thought that, okay. So the next girl I fought, I went, went to town on. You know, just put a whooping and now I know you don't hit girls either way.

• 13:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  I learned, you know.

• 13:07Jocko Willink?

  That's a lose lose situation. But then your mom, your mom told you, no, go hit her.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:11Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's what it says in the book. Like she was like, hey, listen, you gotta go beat her up.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so it was competition and she was in my, you know, they didn't have this separate gender brackets. So everybody was the same and the first girl I faced, I wouldn't hit and I lost the bout. And then the next girl after that, my mom was like, you can, you can hit him. I was like, oh, okay. So I was just like, you're going down, you know? And I went after it.

• 13:35Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's jacked up, man.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I was six, so I mean, I hadn't.

• 13:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  You know, puberty and everything, didn't hit yet. That was seven for me.

• 13:47Jocko Willink?

  The, uh, football team, Vince LeVille, did I say that right?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Ah, Levy, eh.

• 13:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay. Well, you know.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Don't worry about it.

• 13:53Jocko Willink?

  So much of a French speaker over on my end, or whatever that language is.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  If I didn't know his name, I would've said the same thing.

• 13:59Jocko Willink?

  Here's how he described you. The first time I met Travis, he was in middle school at track meet. I'd heard about him, so I went over to watch him. He won the shot put, which meant he was strong. Then he ran over, then he ran over to the 100 yard hurdles and won those, which meant he was fast. You don't see that combination a lot. I knew that this kid was going to be a special athlete. In high school, he became a superstar, three sport athlete, baseball, basketball and football. He was the leader on each team and made first team all conference in all three sports. With football, he was definitely a big cog in our team's wheel. We were the smallest school in our conference and we got beat up for a lot of years. But his junior year, Travis and his friends got into weightlifting and powerlifting and went to all the football camps.

• 14:40Jocko Willink?

  That year, we won the conference championship and made the playoffs for the first time ever. Travis's work ethic motivated everybody, motivated everybody. Everybody got stronger because Travis was their leader. Jack and steel.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  What champions do. First time we ever made the playoffs.

• 14:57Jocko Willink?

  How did you, how did you, what like got you, what made you start lifting?

• 15:01Speaker 01

  Uh, Coach Levee, when I was in seventh, sixth, uh, seventh grade, he said that after school, if I wasn't playing a sport, I had to go lift weights. And he was the vice principal of the high school. So having friends in high places is nice. Cause when you get in trouble, you don't really get in trouble, you know, um, the story, yeah. The story in there about me getting in trouble in class freshman year.

• 15:21Jocko Willink?

  What'd you do?

• 15:22Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't, we don't got, I broke, uh, it was childish, never mind.

• 15:27Jocko Willink?

  But just tell us what you did. It's in the book. You're not gonna hide from it now.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  My buddy farted in class, got kicked in the hallway. So then my other buddy did. So I wanted to go out there. So I finally let one rip. So I can go out in the hallway. And he took us into the office, but he just like, guys, knock it off. You can't do this anymore.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  Too much protein powder?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Oh, that's all. Yeah. So my buddy, Eric, he got, uh, his parents are very competitive, like mine were. And we were both the, the team captains and stars of the show, if you will. So I went home and said, hey, can I get some Cell Tech or Nitro Tech? And it was before like they had the regulations on it. And, uh, my parents like, no, you can't do that. I'm like, well, Eric's parents let him get it. Maybe it wasn't true.

• 16:01Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Eric went home and said the same thing to his parents. So we both got to get on those. And I mean, you know, protein powder.

• 16:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. That's, that's gonna disrupt science class.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, a wee bit, a wee bit. But no, I mean, it was, it was fun, you know, everybody, I worked at a grocery store. Um, after the football games, the old men would come in, drink coffee and hang out with me.

• 16:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  And my boss, just like the owner of the store just accepted it. Like the wives would shop and I'd be.

• 16:24Jocko Willink?

  They'd just let you get away with it.

• 16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was at the water cooler, but it was a coffee pot and we'd just hang out. They'd tell me what I did wrong, what I did right. Very varsity, uh, varsity blues style.

• 16:34Jocko Willink?

  Right, right. Big time.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I saw some video footage of you at those games. It was like madness at those games.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Well, the one, the one run I had was, it looked pretty good on film.

• 16:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it looked pretty good to me.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  That's one time I did anything special.

• 16:47Jocko Willink?

  So you get done with your senior year of football and did you maintain the high level of discipline in your grades after that point?

• 16:57Speaker 01

  No, actually I broke up with a girlfriend that had a 4.0.

• 17:00Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  So my grades went right down.

• 17:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No more study partner?

• 17:04Speaker 01

  No, no more like she would.

• 17:05Jocko Willink?

  Help with homework?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, be in the same class and right, left handed for the scratch work and hand it to me. So I'd be right, nothing like that.

• 17:13Jocko Willink?

  And so that that meant, did you get looked at, did you get looked at for college ball?

• 17:18Speaker 01

  I did. I had a couple of offers for baseball and football, um, D2, couple of D1s, smaller D1s. And for some reason, my guidance counselor, he just, I think he just knew, Mr. Simpson, great guy. He kind of figured I wasn't gonna like college and be disciplined enough. So he's like, what about this community college? They're really good. Um, you can go there and play football. And I, and I decided to go there and, uh, I just, I mean, if I was cut out for football, I wasn't cut out for this studying there at that time in my life.

• 17:45Jocko Willink?

  Right. And so you went there for what, uh, one year?

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Uh, semester.

• 17:49Jocko Willink?

  One semester?

• 17:49Speaker 01

  And then my girlfriend was like, you should move home. So I did.

• 17:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  And then I met her boyfriend, Colin, you know, so then I, then I joined the army. If you look back at my life, how'd this happen?

• 17:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  It's her fault.

• 18:00Jocko Willink?

  Colin.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You been running into Colin lately?

• 18:04Speaker 01

  I, I haven't talked, I haven't, no.

• 18:06Jocko Willink?

  We'll look him up.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I mean, he worked at a, at a putt putt golf course when I found everything out. So I grabbed my buddy up and went over there. And the manager of the place, like, sent him home.

• 18:15Jocko Willink?

  Why'd, why'd she tell you to come home?

• 18:17Speaker 01

  She was like a B buyer, I guess. I don't know. And then I was like, hey, what's this about? And then she finally broke down and told me. So I was like, oh, hey, did you know the army was taking people and giving bonuses? See ya.

• 18:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Cause you were in debt. You, you ran up.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  I was, you know, I was about 10 grand in debt for a community college, but that was for the whole year. Cause uh, the baseball coach asked me to play there too.

• 18:34Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 18:37Jocko Willink?

  But then you, uh, you're in debt, you're, um, Colin was on the scene now. That kind of threw a loop. So you, so you end up joining the army?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I joined the army. I went to all the recruiters and the army had the best thing going.

• 18:48Jocko Willink?

  Which was cash?

• 18:50Speaker 01

  $24,000. You know what that money's at today?

• 18:53Jocko Willink?

  No idea.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, me neither.

• 18:54Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Uh, does, did Budweiser get any of that money?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  You know, nah, uh-uh. I don't, I'm actually, I'm not a beer fan.

• 19:00Jocko Willink?

  Not a boozer?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  No, whoa, I didn't.

• 19:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, okay.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Whoa, whoa, I'm not. No, no, I was not go that far. I'm a whiskey fan.

• 19:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  But, uh, no, I mean, I just, I saw a way to pay my bills back. I saw a way to travel and do some more fun stuff. I went in there to be an electrician and they showed me airborne video. I was like, I want that.

• 19:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah. The old, the old, uh, what's that called? Baton switch?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:23Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. What I really want to do is I want to get a good, um, thing, you know, where I can carry on in the civilian life and have a good trade that craft that I can bring back to the civilian world. They're like, watch this video. You're like, yes.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Yes, that's me.

• 19:35Jocko Willink?

  That's all. So I showed you an, uh, is it like airborne recruiting video?

• 19:39Speaker 01

  Um, well, to be honest with you, it was a Ranger regiment recruiting video and I signed up for all that, but then all the rumors were like, if you don't make it, you're going to Korea. And I'm like, I don't want to go to Korea.

• 19:50Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  And then 22 of my friends went to Fort Bragg because you got to pick your duty stations. They were filling up the new brigades. And they're like, oh, you guys, we need you to fill in here and you can pick where you go. So all of us from basic training went.

• 20:01Jocko Willink?

  Cause what year is this?

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Uh, 2006.

• 20:03Jocko Willink?

  Oh yeah. So that's so that's totally different from me because I joined the Navy in 1990.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. That's before I was even a Cry State champion.

• 20:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. We're talking old school. So there was no war going on. And even though in my mind, I always thought like the SEALs were just like fighting wars worldwide at all times, which was not true, but I thought that. But yeah, it wasn't like everyone that was joining the military. It's not like when you guys joined the, your generation of people joined, you knew you were going to war.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 20:33Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  You know, I, uh, the, the biggest regret I actually do have and, and not to kiss up to what you, what you've done, but it's not try to go to the Rangers or go special forces or to the sea. Like not even, I didn't even try. I wish I would have.

• 20:46Jocko Willink?

  Well, you would have. Did you start thinking about that further in your career?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I was going to come back, um, and I was either going to go recruiter and get my last year and a half of college. Cause I went to college. When I could, I took college off unreenlistments and I was going to try to go recruiter to, um, go ahead and get my degree and then go to the special operations world. Because if you don't do it that way, if you become an officer, you gotta go back through the queue and everything.

• 21:08Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  But it was either going to be go right to special operations and try that out or go become an officer and then go. But yeah, I just, uh, you know, I don't know. I have no excuses.

• 21:20Jocko Willink?

  It's a weird thing. It's a weird thing. And I don't really like anybody, like I was. If you compare you as an athlete in high school and me as an athlete in high school, it's not even comparable. You were like 10 times the athlete I was. For some reason, I was stupid enough to think like, I can make it through that training. And you weren't smart enough to go like, I can make that through that training.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Cause you would have. The saddest thing is with the whole, uh, the Ranger contract I had and all these guys were going. And I got to talk to my buddies that are going to Fort Bragg. I ran into a bunch of them. They're like, oh yeah, we made it. I was like, oh my gosh. I could have. I was, you know, this is ridiculous.

• 21:53Jocko Willink?

  It's an interesting, it's an interesting, uh, it's actually humility. It's you being like, hey, man, you know, I don't know. I played, you know, football and baseball and ran track. Or was that, is that right?

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Well, basketball.

• 22:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh, football, baseball and basketball. I'm a great athlete, but I might not make it through. That's, that's actually a form of humility, you know? I think it is.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  I was just, yeah, I don't know where my head was at. I just, I, I, you know, looking back now, I'm embarrassed about it a little bit and I wish I, I wish I would have went and tried it out. I mean, I live a really good life. I have a wonderful wife and everything. Not to jump ahead. Uh, two beautiful children. So life, life's good. As bad as the situation I'm, you know, I found myself in, in April of 2012, but, but looking back, I wish I would have tried something.

• 22:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, but the 82nd Airborne is which is where you ended up is a freaking awesome unit.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Oh, I, yeah. I mean, you drink the Kool-Aid and everybody's like all about standards.

• 22:44Jocko Willink?

  How'd you like, and this is something I, because a lot of people that listen to the podcast, um, they join the military, believe it or not. And like, we just met a guy the other day who's going, September 18th, going to the Marine Corps. But I always want to tell them like, when you show up to boot camp, it's going to be a shock to your system, right? I mean, it is going to be, you're going to lack of sleep. It's not going to be stuff that you're used to. It, it sounds like you got a little, you know, shocked to your system when you showed up there of just normal military stuff. And I guess my point in saying that is when you show up to boot camp, boot camp isn't, is, is not going to be fun for you. It's going to be a transition.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  I mean, you can mentally prepare all day, you know, and then you get yelled at and you're like, why is this guy always yelling at me? I didn't, I didn't do anything wrong. Leave me alone. Um, they made me eat coleslaw. I don't even like coleslaw. I mean, the first thing like, I come out and they're like, everybody gets coleslaw for lunch. I'm like, shit, I don't, so they put it on my plate. And then after I eat the coleslaw, I eat it first. I'm like, oh, he wants me to eat this for some reason. So I'm going to just do this. And then the next time at dinner, I'm like, okay, finally no coleslaw. He's like, Millie's your big bastard. You ate first. I remember you. You get two scoops of coleslaw.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  You know, so.

• 23:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, that's uh, that's boot camp, right?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:55Jocko Willink?

  That's.

• 23:56Speaker 01

  I always felt when I talk to people that are going like, just play the game.

• 23:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  Understand it's gonna end and make the army what you can make it like make it work for you.

• 24:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Understand the job you're getting yourself into and things like that because people ask, would you still join if you know what happened? I said, yeah, absolutely. I would.

• 24:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I enjoyed every second. I was gonna be a 20 year guy. I figured.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  I re-enlisted and, and uh, just, you know.

• 24:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's, it's cool. This is a cool uh, thing that you wrote kind of as you're wrapping up boot camp. Um, you're thinking about September 11th, you know, like I said, that for you is one of, you clearly knew that going in in 2006. And here's what you said, I remember feeling a ragged mix of emotions, anger, confusion, dismay, and wondering why anybody would want to do this to us. I was American. I understood we'd been attacked and that our country was now at war. And that when there's a war, somebody needs to have the courage and intestinal wherewithal to do the actual defending, fighting and unavoidable killing that accompany military actions. That would turn out to be me.

• 25:02Jocko Willink?

  And that's another thing that people need to think about if you're joining the military. And I've gone through this with a bunch of people that, you know, I, I, this happened to me a long time ago. This parent, you know, said, can you come talk to my son? And he really wants to be a SEAL. And I was like, yeah, sure. No problem. And so I meet this kid, strapping young kid, looks super happy and positive. And he does water polo and he's a great athlete. And he's like, I really want to join the SEAL teams. You know, what, what advice do you have for me? I'm like, are, are you ready to kill people and are you ready to die? And it was like the whole room got, well, just them two, but they're looking at me like I'm crazy. But my point was, like, that's what the military is. You kill people and you risk your life. That's, that's what the military is.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I mean, yeah, absolutely. They have the combat and non-combat uh, combat MOSs, you know, just in every, every service. So with the SEAL teams, with the infantry, that's, that's what your job is. And you're willing to risk your life um, for others. I mean, it's just, when I signed up, I was like, yeah, I'm ready to do this. But you never really understand everything. And then when you go through basic training, they show you all these videos. And a lot of it, they showed a lot of Band of Brothers stuff, which is what got me interested in going into the military. And um, I just took it as like, this is what I, this is what I'm born to do. This is awesome.

• 26:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  But, but I get what you're saying. And then people ask me, can you talk my son out of doing this? And I'm like.

• 26:17Jocko Willink?

  No, that's like, no, you can't, you can't talk a young man out of doing this stuff.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  You ever find people that want to tell you like, well, I was gonna join, but then I, I did this. And I'm like, I don't, I don't care. Like, don't, you know, and everybody I talked to, not everybody, but a lot of people I talked to, they got to give me their worst story possible. I was like, oh, I got a brother's friend that lost two legs, you know, in a bear trap. And I'm like, okay, so I know what you're going through. I don't, okay, that works for me, I guess.

• 26:45Jocko Willink?

  Dude, watch out for them bear traps.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  I know.

• 26:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sneak up on you.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, my brother's friend is crazy. I met him one time, but I get what you're, I know exactly what you're doing. Like, okay.

• 26:54Jocko Willink?

  Dude, uh, this cracked me up. You're at airborne school. Most, uh, you're, you're doing your first jumps. You do five jumps at airborne school. Most, back to the book, most were without incident, except my third jump, which was supposed to be a daytime combat jump with full gear. On the way down, I dropped my rucksack too slowly. You're supposed to release it when you come to the tree line, but when I released the pack, it stayed just ahead of me and I landed on top of the metal frame, frame. Ouch, I yelled in pain. The jump master was already on the ground and yelled back at me, did you bring something, Private Mills? I said, no. He glared at me and added, then shut up. I shut up.

• 27:33Jocko Willink?

  Airborne school's really funny. And so this is what happened to me at airborne school. I was a, for, for, I'm not like, um, I, I'm a person that falls fast through the air when parachuting. I don't know why. I'm just one of those people.

• 27:44Speaker 01

  You don't float.

• 27:45Jocko Willink?

  No, I don't float. And, and the other thing was, I didn't like doing a PLF, which is the proper way to land, which is you keep your feet and knees together. And then you like, act like you have one big leg and that's the way you're supposed to prevent getting injured, breaking your ankle or knee or whatever. And so when I was parachuting at airborne school, I wasn't really doing a PLF. I was just kind of athletically landing on my feet, right? So anyways, they got these loudspeakers down on the, on the, uh, field. And as all these new guys, all of us are just new, and the guy's on the megaphone, he goes, and he's talking to me, because my feet are apart, and I'm just gonna do an athletic thing, and he goes, feet, knees together airborne, feet, knees together airborne, feet, knees together airborne, feet, knees together airborne.

• 28:26Jocko Willink?

  You all right airborne?

• 28:29Jocko Willink?

  So, uh, yeah, I thought that was funny. That crack.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Did it hurt?

• 28:33Jocko Willink?

  No, I, I didn't get hurt.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  That's impressive.

• 28:35Jocko Willink?

  Didn't get hurt.

• 28:36Speaker 01

  Cause you got, you know, I was, I was actually a jump master direct towards the end of my, you know, military time that I was in and, you know, got the balls of feet calf time. You know, I had it all down.

• 28:45Jocko Willink?

  You were dialed.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 28:46Jocko Willink?

  Those instructors, how long is the, the jump master school to be an instructor at for Benning?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Well, at Benning, so it's completely different. So, well, I mean, it's not that much different, I guess. But for me, it was like a three week course and I was able to like check people's equipment.

• 28:58Jocko Willink?

  But they didn't make you memorize the term and, oh, they did, did, did they?

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Uh, you gotta memorize like the pre-jump brief and everything and stuff like that. But no, like, like this is a nylon stitch with 5,000 grain test and steel that's stronger than America. You know, like, it's like, that's no way it's stronger than America, no way. But no, they don't, they don't do that to you.

• 29:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's a, that's a good times. Um,

• 29:24Jocko Willink?

  you're getting ready for your first deployment. So you show up at 82nd, everyone, you're, you're there, you're getting ready for your first deployment. You know, you're going to Afghanistan and you're leaving just after Christmas. And here we're going to the book. My dad didn't talk to me about leaving. Over the next few days, we hung out and did whatever we normally did. But most he said during that time was be sure to keep your head down. Then the day before I left, dad told me a story about when he went into the army. He'd taken washable paint and written a note to his parents in their shower stall where they were sure to be able to see it. It said one short sentence of reassurance. All will be fine.

• 30:11Jocko Willink?

  Early the morning that I left, I took a washable marker and went into my parents bathroom. Right above the faucets where they were sure to see it, I wrote the same short message. All will be fine. I was miles away from the house when my dad called. He told me he saw the note. I didn't say much and he didn't say much. He told me he loved me. Then his voice became hoarse and his words of support for me came out broken and choked.

• 30:46Jocko Willink?

  First time going on deployment.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  And it was, it was a little rough too because um, a guy from my hometown, a marine, uh, he was a buddy of mine. His dad's my baseball coach, uh, his brother's in my grade. On the day after Christmas, on the 26th, he got shot by a sniper in Iraq and ended up right through his heart and he didn't make it home. So his uh, my brother's actually, his girlfriend was his uh, that this Chris's uh, little sister. And she was at my house and I found out from, from friends that what had happened before the family found out. Uh, from people that were deployed with the unit. So, I mean, that was, that was rough of my parents, you know, to have me, you know, in a couple of weeks going overseas. And then I'm at home and the day after Christmas, you know, a guy gets shot that I know.

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's uh, um, that's one, I think that's one of the hardest things for uh, when, when military families see someone wounded or killed, they know that that could be their, their loved one. And that's why that, that's, I mean, days before you're leaving, man, that's, that's harsh.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  And, and we're good, we're close friends with the family. Like, like I said, his dad coached me from, I think, uh, 10 years old up to 14 and, or yeah, yeah, 14 or 15, but you know, knew the family really well. So, so it was a little rough and things like that for a bit uh, on my parents. But you know, people now, when they see me, they, they say, hey, do you go and speak to a lot of military things? I'm like, you know, I don't really do that, that much. If they want me to come in, I will, but I'm not sure. But guys going overseas want to see me on stage saying, hey, guys, you're gonna be A-OK. You know, I mean, it's trying not to route. I mean, I mean, I talked to a lot of companies, but when it comes down to that, I'm like, hey, guys, you'll be good over there. It's like some movie that, that six, uh, I don't know what it is, but they're like, may have to remake me the man I am today.

• 32:28Jocko Willink?

  Starship Troopers.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've never seen it, but I get told that line. He's got like two fake legs.

• 32:32Jocko Willink?

  He's good. He's real good with movie quotes, especially bad movies.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  I'm so glad. I forgot you were here. No, it's great. Every now and then chime in.

• 32:42Jocko Willink?

  Uh, so your first deployment, what are you, are you an E3 or an E4?

• 32:46Speaker 01

  Um, when I went over there, I think I was an E3.

• 32:49Jocko Willink?

  That's.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  Or I might've been an E2 actually in my first one. Yeah. I was only in the military like six months before I deployed.

• 32:54Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's crazy.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  Oh, it was a good time. I worked for a Colonel.

• 32:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and you're doing basically PSD for the Colonel, right?

• 33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so like try being like a young private, you go to a unit that's not infantry, you don't get treated like crap. You work for a Lieutenant Colonel, who's a direct descendant of Colonel Custer. He's a, it was his great uncle. The guy's just as wild, Scotty D. And he always walk around saying, what's better than a pair of aces, guys? Two pair. And he show like the double As on his arms. And phenomenal guy, really. And we just go around with him. So if we ever got yelled at, my, my team leader was, was a cook, Sergeant Rush. Like if we, if we ever got yelled at, he'd just go to the Colonel and be like, hey, so they're bothering us? And the Colonel be like, don't you touch my guys. And I'm like, this is so nice being protected by literally a Colonel.

• 33:40Jocko Willink?

  So that was a relatively cush. And you were living on a, if you were the Colonel, I'm assuming you were living in like pretty good?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  FOM Salerno?

• 33:47Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  And they have like hard buildings and they had tents. We were in the very first hard building. Oh, we all went in and bought satellite internet and had a shower every day, hot meals.

• 33:58Jocko Willink?

  And how often are you rolling out into town?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  But we'd go out and do government work and come back, you know, and then I was in the gym. I'd go at eight o'clock. I, I don't like being in the gym with people. Like I was like, I don't want no one on my machines. And I super set it a lot. So I'd go from eight to 11 at night, just crush it. And then midnight chow, which is like the greatest thing ever.

• 34:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. No crowd?

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Oh, you just, you're like, I was like omelets and hot wings today.

• 34:21Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you get the combo breakfast and dinner scenario going down.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  I know you're a much cooler guy than me, but when you got the midnight chow at FOM Sal, I'm telling you, it's like, yeah, I want the, the hot wings. I'll take pancakes and omelets. And I want you to some potato, mashed potatoes and gravy on that.

• 34:39Jocko Willink?

  And you guys, it sounds like on that first, well, you didn't, you didn't even shoot, you didn't shoot your gun first and foremost.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  Didn't have to. I was on patrols every day. I had a suicide bomber run off on us and like detonate on the front of our truck. Just like, what an idiot. You know, no, I mean, like, and like, you know, his nutsack's hanging off the light and his, you know, but he's just, the truck's not hurt at all. It's like genius, bro. Genius. Job well done.

• 35:03Jocko Willink?

  A for effort, like a F for judgment?

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:07Jocko Willink?

  But still, that, I mean, that, that having a suicide bomber hit your truck. That's like, uh, that's at least a reality check at a minimum, right?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, yeah, so it was, it was our, uh, one of our, our front trucks. And then also we had a guy run up on the Colonel opening a hospital and detonate himself. Um, I was in the truck at that time, like in the gun, but we just found out if we go out there, we just make sure that everybody knows we're really aware. Every time we take a turn, you know, our guns are rotating, we're not sleeping, we're up and out. Um, we didn't really get messed with and, um, and that, and that helped. I mean, I was, you know, I was in a, a place where there was bombs and things like that, but I was very protected, you know, EOD would roll out before the Colonel went anywhere.

• 35:49Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:51Jocko Willink?

  How many gun tr- how many gun trucks did you take on a convoy?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Just four, just four of us.

• 35:55Jocko Willink?

  With him and the three truck or two truck?

• 35:58Speaker 01

  He was in the two, I was his gunner the first like six months.

• 36:00Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 36:00Speaker 01

  And then I was, uh, I moved to like be a TC.

• 36:04Jocko Willink?

  But it, it, it, the threat level was like medium? I mean, cause you would have taken, yeah, you would have taken a bigger convoy with more aggressive facilities if.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  I was in the, the Humvee, it was all Humvees before like any other vehicle. And I had a two, four, nine, like as my, my main weapon, I had a saw.

• 36:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  They're like, yeah, okay, the front truck, yep, 50 cal. Uh, back truck, we're going to give you a mark and you're just going to get a saw. And I was like, oh, awesome.

• 36:29Jocko Willink?

  Thank you.

• 36:30Speaker 01

  So I had, I had a saw, that's why I put it up there like it was a big old gun.

• 36:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's awesome. Uh, good times.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:38Jocko Willink?

  Why didn't they give you a real gun up there?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Uh, apparently the, my biceps were big enough, that was a real gun show. You know, and I get that. I had 22s at the time.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  I got some supplements sent to me.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  The SF guys found a way for me to get some of their supplements, wonderful.

• 36:56Jocko Willink?

  Uh, now, do you went to, for, is this, is this deployment you went for, home for R and R on?

• 37:02Speaker 01

  It is.

• 37:03Jocko Willink?

  And you had your, um, first meeting?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  First meeting.

• 37:06Jocko Willink?

  With one of your platoon mates' sisters.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  You know, I love to, I love to antagonize people and I got a MySpace friend request. And, uh, I thought, I thought, man, this must be a dating page. It was a, you know, cowgirl hat, brown blouse or whatever, jean skirt. I was like, that's a dating site, you know, this is an ad, wait a second. Huh, that last name is the same as my medic, let's do some investigation. He was home on R and R and I was looking through, I was like, that's his little sister. She's 18, so it's legal. And I was just like, except, you know. And we started chit chatting and I just did to make him mad, you know. But we ended up enjoying each other's company. The first time we ever met, I was like, I deserve a vacation. I've been here eleven and a half months, you know, I got coming home for thirteen, for eighteen days. You want to, you want to go on vacation? She's like, yeah, sure. So we decided we're gonna go to Cosmo, Mexico.

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  How'd you, how'd you talk the, uh, her dad into that?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  She was eighteen, so she did what she wanted, I guess, I don't know. He didn't kill me, so had every right.

• 38:01Jocko Willink?

  And so you go to Mexico, that's your first date, it's like, hey, I'm just gonna take you to Mexico.

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you, you guys, I say I don't know that twenty-four thousand dollars, man, I know exactly where.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Went to Mexico, then back to Michigan for a week. Had a great time. Uh, she went back to Texas, had to go back overseas. I got held up in Atlanta. So I called her up, like, hey, I'm in Atlanta for the night, you want to come? And she said, yeah. So she came out. Next morning, saying her goodbyes, crocodile tears streaming from her face. Um, and she's like, I love you. And I'm like, I'm no idiot, so I love you too, you know, as fast as I could. She's like, I love you. I didn't even pause, you know? And she's like, in between her sobs, I want to marry you. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. But you know, in my head, I said that, cause I was like, I want to marry you too. Real Casanova here. I'd jump on that airplane, get back overseas, give her a call. Right, twenty-four hours later in Afghanistan, I'm like, hey, what's going on, babe? She's like, guess what? I'm like, I don't know what, wedding's planned.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  Zales dot com, bought her a ring and called her dad and whatnot. And he's like, yeah, I guess that's cool. I'm like, well, okay, thanks. And then we got married.

• 39:02Jocko Willink?

  How did her brother feel about it? Cause you, was, was her brother in your building with you?

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Oh, he was my medic, yeah. He actually rode in the same truck as me.

• 39:08Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 39:09Speaker 01

  And my colon would pick on him on the radio, hey, Buck, what do you think Mills doing with your sister and that stuff? And it's like, I'm like, break, break, break, you can let that go. Cause you mean, I'm standing up in the truck, you know, and Josh can just hammer me from the backseat. And I'm like, no, no, no, don't do this, don't do this, sir. Um, but, uh, nah, he, he knew I was a good guy. He's like, he told his mom today, he's like, look, I, I know how it looks. He's actually a good guy and really nice, so we'll see how it works out. And then I ended up marrying her.

• 39:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's awesome, man. That's, that's a, a great story. You detail it, um, in here. That it's pretty, uh.

• 39:43Jocko Willink?

  It's pretty unbelievable, you know, that you pulled all that off.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Well, and the Colonel was actually setting me up to go to the prep school in Virginia for West Point. He's like, you should be playing football. My, my lieutenant at the time, Lieutenant Phillips, now he's a major, but maybe he's a Colonel now. But he was training me, he was a football coach and he holds a record in Chicago. Yeah. Most consecutive losses at the school that he was coaching at in high school. Yeah, they were that bad. Great guy though. And he was like helping me coach and train up and lift weights and do whatever. But then I met Kelsey. I was like, I think I'm just gonna do this, you know? So we got married when I got back.

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  How long, how long after you went home for Christmas did you come back?

• 40:22Speaker 01

  I came back in April on the 13th night, 14th morning. And then you won't find it in my book, but we got married at the courthouse on the 17th.

• 40:29Jocko Willink?

  There you go.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then we got married again in like a big wedding in June.

• 40:33Jocko Willink?

  But you wanted that money?

• 40:34Speaker 01

  Well, I needed to. I spent all my money, you know? I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna get a house.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  I'm like, look, we need to, I need that BAH for three months to pay for this damn wedding, you know? So.

• 40:45Jocko Willink?

  Where'd you guys have your wedding?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  In Texas, in McKinney, about 112 that day.

• 40:49Jocko Willink?

  And then, so you settled down and now you, now you know you're staying in the Army. You're pretty, pretty much saying I'm staying in the Army at this point.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I really enjoyed it. I got moved around to another unit when I got back. Cause I had to go to like a line unit, couldn't be a PSD guy the whole life. I mean, I was up for it. I was like, this is awesome. But yeah, we got a house or an apartment in North Carolina, right outside Fort Bragg there, bought a dog. Life was good and, and I figured the military's doing well and then just kinda hung out for 15 months or 18 months before I deployed.

• 41:19Jocko Willink?

  That's what I was gonna say. So it's 18 months between deployments for you?

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Uh, it was that. It was usually a year and three months. So like I went for 15 months. So they gave me 18 months off. I went for a year and then they gave me 15 months off. Then I had to go again for my third, but I'm jumping ahead here.

• 41:35Jocko Willink?

  So you, you get back over on deployment.

• 41:40Jocko Willink?

  And this is, this is like within days and you'll, you'll type me up on that, but one of your, one of your friends, Tyler Juden, is I saying that right?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yup.

• 41:50Jocko Willink?

  He's, uh, out on a mounted patrol, IED hits the first vehicle, then they get a small arms ambush, and I'm going to the book here, our guys needed to get the disabled vehicle out of the way. And while they worked toward this objective, Tyler sprinted up to a high site on a nearby hill and fired through some five to seven magazines of ammo protecting his soldiers below. When the disabled truck was finally cleared, Tyler sprinted back to the truck. But the enemy had specifically targeted him. An RPG flew in and he was hit. They rushed him back to the hospital at the FOB, but it was too late. Tyler died on the operating table. Fury rose up inside of me. I wanted to find whatever Taliban savages did this to Tyler and shoot them in the face.

• 42:35Jocko Willink?

  Tyler was always cautious, he took his job extremely seriously and never made mistakes. There was no reason for him to die. He described to me once how he believed his job as a sniper ultimately saved innocent lives. He was putting into practice what he knew to be true. He was helping the world, not hindering it, and he'd been trained to be one of the rough men who stands ready in the night, prepared to do his duty, prepared to visit violence on those who would do us harm.

• 43:04Jocko Willink?

  Tyler's death far, hit far too close to home. And we'd only just arrived.

• 43:12Jocko Willink?

  So that's not a fun way to kick off deployment, damn.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  And I'm not sure if he's experienced in your unit, but it seems like the guys that get hit are the ones that you don't expect will ever get hit. So Tyler was a year older than me. Uh, I respected him. I mean, it was, it was crazy because you know, a guy's a year older, it's like, oh, whatever, but he had such a professionalism about him and I looked up to him and I tried to learn what I could from him. And he only had like a, he probably had an extra year and a half in the army than I did, but, but either way. And highly ranked sniper and, uh, he went up and just, he didn't take bad shots, so he was just popping everybody and they, they did target him. He actually, I'm pretty sure it was, uh, Camp Chapman that he, that, uh, I'm not sure if you've ever been to the SF.

• 43:51Jocko Willink?

  No, I haven't been there.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Base there, um, uh, but anyway, that's where he ended up not making, it was only two weeks into the deployment. And, um, you know, when, when that guy like that gets hit, one, you're obviously frustrated and angry, you don't know why it happened, but two, it's like, well, jeez, if he can get, you know. Hit or taken out, you know, it kinda takes you down in confidence of Peg or two as well. Because he's the guy you wouldn't expect. Not that you expect anybody to get hit, I guess.

• 44:14Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  But you know, like a super soldier.

• 44:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  Style guy.

• 44:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and I'm sure like, everybody, if you held him in that regard, everybody held him in that regard. And so, everybody's feeling that same.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:28Jocko Willink?

  Kind of, uh, straight up nervousness, right?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there was, he would walk by, like, on our ACUs, like, have a string, you're supposed to tuck the string in. Some standard stuff. If, mine would always be hanging out. He'd walk by and yank on it, and they make me do pushups and yell at me. And I wanted to punch him in the face. But I couldn't, you know, and I understood why he was doing it, so. It's just a fun story, I guess, I like to tell people, because I mean, if I could have decked him, I probably would.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  I've only been in one fistfight, ever. I knocked myself out, playing volleyball.

• 44:56Jocko Willink?

  That was it? That was the one?

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's sad but true, it's in the book. Uh, yeah. It's, I don't know what that.

• 45:04Jocko Willink?

  Well, you might as well tell it.

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, we were just playing volleyball and everybody got mad, I was going over the net, we made OE, uh, OE 254, like, cables.

• 45:11Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  For the antennas, we used those and 550 cord.

• 45:14Jocko Willink?

  Uh huh.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And everyone was like, "Quick, go over the net!" And I was six foot three, and the net was only six foot tall, so I was like, just hammering it home. I had a vertical, you know, like LeBron, so, he's ridiculous. Whole belly button above the net, and I kept going over and they kept yelling at me, so I pulled my hand back real fast before I did it. And then I caught myself right in the eye socket. Ooh, knocked out.

• 45:34Jocko Willink?

  You actually knocked yourself out?

• 45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. But, but later on, when I had this happen, I did get knocked out.

• 45:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  So it's like, can you imagine what the Fist of Fury could have done? Floyd wouldn't have stood a chance against me.

• 45:47Jocko Willink?

  I don't know if I'm impressed, if that's like, super impressive, or super not impressive.

• 45:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:51Jocko Willink?

  You either have, yeah, fists of iron or a glass jaw, we're not sure which.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  I hit a bomb.

• 45:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, sure.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  And I didn't have to get knocked out, so my answers have been.

• 45:58Jocko Willink?

  Fists of iron.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, the questions have been answered. Probably be in jail right now if I ever went fisticuffs with anybody.

• 46:05Jocko Willink?

  So, uh...

• 46:08Jocko Willink?

  You, it sounds like you, you guys ended up doing over watches of a road in, um, what up by?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Zabzik Pass.

• 46:16Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:17Jocko Willink?

  And.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Great time.

• 46:19Jocko Willink?

  How long were you on that for?

• 46:21Speaker 01

  Oh, we went out there and they were like, yeah, just go ahead and pack for, you know, a couple of weeks. And then we were out there, I think 50 some, 50 days or so. And we're just living on top of a mountain.

• 46:30Jocko Willink?

  And then like. Just monitoring the road?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, just cause they had, uh, they were bringing up convoys, the jingle trucks with military gear on it to build another FOB. And we had people on both sides and I actually, uh, I was so afraid to tell my wife, I, I went down one day to get some food or something or get a resupply. And, uh, on the way back up, they made a stop. They want to register mortars. And I was like, what the, I just want to get back up there. I got out and I slammed my door and like the brilliant guy I am, I went ahead and used a fist of fear and I hammered a Hummer. And I ripped the scab open on my hand. I told the wife, my story to my wife, it was so much blood, it was gushing, it was ridiculous. But, uh, it was my wedding ring fingers. I took my wedding ring off, put on the front of the Hummer. And I got the medic, I was like, get out of your doc, you know, Willis or whatever. Fix this up for me.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  And he had to put tape on it. I got back in, left my wedding ring right on the front of that Hummer and drove back up mountain. So like for 30 some days, every time I got a chance to go down the mountain, I had a metal detector out like, please find this tungsten ring. Please, I don't want to tell my wife.

• 47:25Jocko Willink?

  Never found it.

• 47:28Jocko Willink?

  I, I, uh, I always like to give people that didn't serve a little, you know, impression or of, of what it's like. And I thought this one wrapped it up pretty good. Going to the book here. Going so long without taking a shower came with a share of complications. Guys got trench foot from their feet being wet and sweaty and not taking care of them properly. I got strange rashes in intimate areas and it wasn't uncommon for a guy to mutter about his balls sticking to his leg when he hiked. Every dude got chafed up pretty badly in his bodily crevices. And a common complaint was that a guy had swass, slang for sweaty ass.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 48:07Jocko Willink?

  My armpits hurt. I sweated so much that the salt got trapped in my skin and my back broke out in a raised bubbly rash. This happened to other guys too. The only solution is to get your ID card out and have another dude scrape your back hard until the salt crystals pop out. It's a brutal procedure and it feels like getting cut with a razor blade, but it's all part of the fun.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yep.

• 48:35Jocko Willink?

  Day to day.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:36Jocko Willink?

  Day to day get some.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  I mean, it sounds like I was complaining in that one. Huh. No, it, yeah, watching someone like scrape salt crystals, like size of table salt come out of there. I'm not sure if you ever experienced anything like that.

• 48:49Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 48:50Speaker 01

  But, uh, yeah, it's pretty bad and you get so gro- and then, I don't know, I took four real showers that year.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Like real ones. I mean, you go get a water bottle, poke holes in the top and spray yourself down, but then you gotta get dirty all over again. It's this whole long process.

• 49:03Jocko Willink?

  You're talking in there like how it takes like nine days or something before you get comfortable with your nastiness.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:08Jocko Willink?

  And then you don't even want to break the cycle and get clean again. It's gonna take you nine days to get used to it again.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  No. The best part's like the winter, cause you don't smell as bad in the winter. Like when the winter, you don't take showers. You're like, oh, it doesn't matter. I brush my teeth, keep them pearly white, make my teeth look whiter. You know, but, uh, yeah, no, it's pretty, I actually decided, um, halfway into that deployment, I was like, told my wife, just send me eight pair of Ranger panties. So I, I wore a whole pair of like Ranger panties for a month and I just took them off. I was like, no, not gonna wash these. Just don't worry. Accept it and move on. 12 bucks well spent. So. Matter of fact, where Azabzak passed, my, uh, my pants got so torn, they were like chaps, like my butt cheeks were hanging out and stuff. And one of these sergeant majors came in, you know, and they're all out of, uh, out of shape, like, you ate up like a bag of dicks.

• 49:54Speaker 01

  And they're like, change your pants. I'm like, Sergeant Major, if I change my pants, I'm gonna get another pair that looks just like this. Like, is that, I'm not on the fob. Then you come in, they're like, you, you gotta get a new uniform and all that. I'm like,

• 50:04Jocko Willink?

  Bring me one.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  I'm like, yeah, okay, let me do that. You got it, bud. I know you're gonna get back in that truck and roll your ass out of here, so.

• 50:12Jocko Willink?

  Back to the chicken wings and pancakes.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Oh, I know. I ate a lot of MREs.

• 50:17Jocko Willink?

  Uh, that's good times. Yeah, you know, I gotta, just straight up, I mean, in, in the SEAL teams, we just don't have to eat that many MREs. It's just the way it is.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Have to or don't get to?

• 50:31Jocko Willink?

  The, either.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  You make them, you can make those things delicious.

• 50:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you can.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  That burrito, mm, get at me. Mix a little bit in there. Yeah.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  Uh, I actually, my first deployment to Iraq, we ate MREs for a little while and I was legitimately sick of them. And, and it was, it wasn't that long.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:50Jocko Willink?

  But I was already sick of them. It wasn't no 50 days, I can promise you that.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, yeah.

• 50:57Jocko Willink?

  You were just gonna say something about the SEAL teams, weren't you?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  No, not, I would never. Are you kidding me? I don't have Fist of Fury to defend myself.

• 51:03Jocko Willink?

  We're getting shipped in steaks and crap like that.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  I mean, later on at a point, we had like steaks on like one day a week, they'd bring out like these frozen steaks. We'd cook them over like an open pit of fire with a stick thrown.

• 51:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, dude, it is legit. Like I, we'd go out to some rant. My first appointment, we'd go out to, because we were living it, we were on buy up in Baghdad. Big Chow Hall, everything good. And we'd go out to do an op somewhere, there'd be some SF group in the middle of nowhere. And you'd see how they're living. And it wasn't always an SF group, sometimes it's an army, you know, some army platoon or company out there in the middle of nowhere. And you're like, dang, these boys are roughing it. Nasty.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  And we're here like, they brought Gatorade, they brought a case of Gatorade. Give me two, give me two, I'm gonna hide one in my pillowcase.

• 51:44Jocko Willink?

  You'd feel bad. They'd be like, oh, man, you're in the SEAL teams. We're like, dude, I'm ashamed to, to like even be hanging out with you right now.

• 51:51Speaker 01

  You guys smell so bad, I don't know why they brought me out here. Can you guys go sit over there? We're just gonna sit here, leave us alone.

• 51:56Jocko Willink?

  We'd get guys like, you know what? We've gone three days without a shower. This is crap, man.

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did that. It's totally the same life. But, you know, with, and during this, I mean, and during this, it's still like, it's funny, like my friends from high school, right? I have two really good friends that can talk with whatever, but if I run to another person from high school or whatever, we'll catch up on everything. And it's like, oh, great talking to you. And, you know, and then you find your way out of the conversation. But you friend the military buddies you haven't seen in years and you just go right back into it, you know? Just because you understand where you've been, what you've been through.

• 52:34Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of going through stuff. Here we go. Back to the book. The Taliban screeched to a stop and started shooting at the AMP. Bullets cracked all around us. We got word from higher command to engage. I yelled to my men, fire. We shot our rifles and Schwartz let loose with several bursts of machine gun. Rat-a-tat-tat, rat-a-tat-tat, rat-a-tat-tat. This is my first large scale firefight of any kind. It hit me with a wham that this wasn't merely a training exercise anymore. This was the real deal. My adrenaline rose and with it a surge of energy. But I also felt calm, as if all my training had kicked in at once, and I just did what I was trained to do. I honestly wasn't afraid.

• 53:16Jocko Willink?

  I took aim and fired at the bad guys, they fired at me, and it didn't faze me to think that I might kill somebody when I wanted, when they wanted to kill me first. I saw several Taliban members get hit and fall, more fell, and more. The last few who were left turned around and took off, took off up the wadi.

• 53:35Jocko Willink?

  We got word to get, not to give chase, because wadi's are great choke points for potential enemy ambushes. When the shooting died down completely, we approached close enough to see the bodies of the enemy soldiers I just helped kill. It was a surreal feeling, but I reminded myself that this is what a soldiers are built to do. We received reports later that three of my men, or three of the men killed were top Taliban leaders in the region. So there's your first gunfight.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So the A and P, um, A and P commander was a former Taliban guy, and he switched oversides and ran the A and P. He's like, yeah, they're having a big meeting, I gotta call, they're gonna come down to the wadi, we'll go check it out, and then all of a sudden just like, just dropping, you know, Mark 19 and, um, the 50 cal and 240 on them and just, hey, you know, going nuts, and then, uh, then, you know, they, they come back and they, they, they're really good about taking their bodies away with them. You know, they're, they're pretty good about it, but they were like 18 or, uh, 20 people deep in the, in the wadi coming, we just led into them. And, uh, yeah, that was my first, like, real taste of, like, actually shooting my gun at people.

• 54:40Jocko Willink?

  What were you, a, a team leader at this point?

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I was, so, I was actually a squad leader.

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's right.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  I was, I was a position up. So I was still in E5, but I was in a squad leader position. So, I was trying to do a-

• 54:53Jocko Willink?

  Of what, a weapon squad?

• 54:54Speaker 01

  No, no, we were actually, uh, we were mounted.

• 54:56Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  So I had my own truck, but I had two trucks that were under me, so I had two, two, uh, two trucks that were two teams. So I had, uh, two team leaders that were underneath me and then we each had a truck. So my senior, like, team leader had one of, he was a TC of his truck, and then I was a TC of the, the junior team leader that I had.

• 55:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  It was a good time.

• 55:15Jocko Willink?

  Again, I said that at a speaking somewhere the other day and I said something along those lines and like somebody said like, I think it's kind of weird that you say it's a good time and fun. And I'm like, well.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  It's a drilling rush like you're not gonna get.

• 55:28Jocko Willink?

  It's a good time and fun, I mean.

• 55:30Speaker 01

  They shot at me first. I mean, he started it. Yeah, defend yourself. But, uh, yeah, and then, I mean, yeah, I just, you know, doesn't, didn't faze me, it didn't hit me hard. I wasn't worried about it.

• 55:47Speaker 01

  Just kept moving on. As a matter of fact, that region died right down, like, completely after that.

• 55:52Jocko Willink?

  Well, if you kill all those bad guys, it certainly has an impact.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Like, that was our first night out there too. We moved out to the middle of nowhere in a snowstorm and that was like, maybe not first night, our second night out there, we just shot everybody and then for the next like two months, it was quiet and they were like, they backfilled us with some other platoon. They're like, hey, we're gonna bring in this platoon here. You guys are gonna go up north. Where there's a lot of fighting in Balmer Gob. Alright, cool, let's do it.

• 56:14Jocko Willink?

  So that's, that's the next big movement that you made, was to that spot? And that place had a bad rep? Like, as far as being a lot of fighting there?

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Uh, Balmer Gob was real heavy, real heavy. It was, um, the Balmer Gob River and when we got there, um, the Italians were there before us and I guess they were just like, hey Taliban, don't mess with us. Here's, here's some money and we're good. And we're, uh, we're the 82nd, so we're like, no, not gonna happen. And the infantry platoon that we replaced, and I mean, for the record, I am infantry. I was in a cav unit, but they always have, uh, charlie troop is infantry platoon they bring in. And then we had these coin platoons, it was like two infantry and two cav squads to make platoons up. But, um, yeah, we replaced these, uh, the infantry guys. They had two guys killed, unfortunately, fell into a river. There was actually a ceasefire with the Taliban to find the bodies and bring the bodies back. Um, and we got up there and

• 57:04Speaker 01

  there was like a, a line in the sand. They said, look, you cross this line, you're gonna get shot at. And we were like, alright, cool. So we would, we started taking ground and, um, Everywhere that there's a fighting position on top of a mountain, they would booby trap it when they were done. So a guy, one of the FOs, Sergeant Fox, good guy, he picked up a matchbox, like, yep, I got a matchbox, it looks like, and then just, they only found his torso. That was, you know, everything else was gone, just his body armor.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  But instead of staying in one spot at this one, we, we took one more spot. And they're like, yeah, well, some, uh, Marsat guys went up here.

• 57:41Jocko Willink?

  Was this the, uh, was these the strong points like Corvette and Impala? Is that what we're talking about now?

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah, these are in your book. Um, you talk about those being, and Impala was the, the even worse one, even further in enemy territory.

• 57:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were like, yeah, we had like a Marsat guy got shot in the head when he was up there. Um, because there's like a eight man team that went in and like, you guys can't really go there. So we decided one night we're going to go there. We trained, we got all ready for it.

• 58:07Jocko Willink?

  What was Impala physically? What is it like a little, uh, former like, like house or something?

• 58:13Speaker 01

  It was absolutely, it was a house. Um, and we decided we were going to take it one night because it was the last house on the edge of town. And then there was 1,200 meters between the next like village. And the Taliban would go in there and shoot at us and, you know, be able to sneak down a way far enough. And, uh, we had, um, a javelin team come up on one side. We, we went up in the middle of the night on this side. And we had other people on this side and we just, we just took it in the middle of the night. And then they said, we're going to go up there for like, you know, three days, do reconnaissance, come back. And they're like, oh, you know what? We're going to stay there. So the work didn't stop. We had to fill sandbags, put up barbed wire. And then we went up the side of a mountain and built and dug in a, uh, um, an OP.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  But it was like, we, we had 21 guys there. Taliban never knew. We only had 20 man, 21 man platoon. So we had like 13 down at the cop and then we sent the rest of them up on top of a hill. And they dug in so deep that was eight foot deep pits and there was a living room, a 240 pit, a 50 cal pit.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Like a little dining kitchen area and then like three sleeping pits, like three like that two cots would fit in, like it was huge.

• 59:19Jocko Willink?

  Did you put overhead cover on them somehow?

• 59:20Speaker 01

  Uh, no, we just dug them deep enough where he didn't.

• 59:23Jocko Willink?

  Didn't need it?

• 59:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we put, I guess we put our, um, ponchos over it, you know, things like that.

• 59:28Jocko Willink?

  But not protection from mortars?

• 59:30Speaker 01

  No, no, uh, and if you stood up when they were digging it and they started digging it when you stood up and you were digging, they start shooting at us and then we just rain hell. And, um, we dug in and after about a month of that, we just were killing so many, they just gave it up. They're like, all right, we're done. Um, and that's where we, I mean, we came, they came out, we were black on water and then like the brass came out. They're like, why don't you guys shaving, where's your haircuts? I'm like, we don't have water, are you kidding me right now, bro? And then the same sergeant, yelling for my pants, they wanted to go up to C R O P. So my platoon sergeant's like, hey, sergeant major, I need to, can you take one of your teams and just go? So we took four men out and I walked them right over, when I thought the road was clear, you know, but it was all filled with water

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  when we took the place, walked more huge IEDs, they just, the batteries had died in them because they waited, you know, way too long. But when they dried up, they're like, oh, there's a mortar. Oh, look at that. That's a, that's a A T mine, a triple stack, you know? Um, but anyways, so I was like, took them up on top of the O P and stuff like that. And it was funny because as they're yelling us for not being shaven or cleaned up, I go a quarter of the way up this, it's like a hundred yards probably, like almost straight up. And I, I go up a quarter of the way with them and I say, all right, I'll be right back. And so I run to the top and I'd say, hey, L T, you know, the sergeant major is coming up and the colonel, so just be ready. You know, so we're like trying to put our uniforms on and everything instead of like just our T shirts. And I run back down and he's bear crawling. He sits down, he's like, I can't do it. I'm like, go eat your midnight chow, leave us alone. How about that? Are you kidding me?

• 1:00:55Jocko Willink?

  That was it, huh? Did he make it to the O P?

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Uh, he, he made it up to the top. He did eventually. And I'm like, but I came back down. I kind of put a little bit of fear in him. I said, sergeant major, this is not the spot that you want to stop. Right there, that town, that's Taliban held. Anybody in that town shoots at us. And if they see that we're not moving quick, they're going to take pop shots. So you're going to need to, and I mean, mostly true, but he's like, he was like sitting down looking. And I was like, no, no, no, no, you need to, need to move, sergeant major, need to go. And I mean, and no offense to the brass, it wasn't even my sergeant major, I don't think that was there at the time. It was like a different unit or whatever, but. But yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it was a wild, wild west. We were just shooting firefight every day, but we were the northern limit. You know, there was nobody farther pushed than us.

• 1:01:38Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. I want, one part you're talking about how you, you ended up shooting 11 javelins in, in a day, I think. Yeah, that's, that's getting after it on, on pretty much anyone's standards.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we shot 29 that whole deployment. It was, it was cool.

• 1:01:55Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  See, conventional army can be fun.

• 1:01:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. Dude, the, the conventional army we were with in Ramadi were freaking getting after it every single day. Is, is, they were awesome. Awesome.

• 1:02:11Jocko Willink?

  Like you were getting in a firefight every day there, huh?

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  Um, for, for a bit there we were, and then it died right down. They were just tired because, you know, once they shot once, we just, we let loose. We had enough ammo to, to last us for years, probably. And we let them know. We let them know.

• 1:02:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. America's real cool when it comes to ammo.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Jocko Willink?

  In those situations.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  It's like, oh, you guys need more? Yeah, we'll be right there.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  All right. You are, yeah, same thing happened. You were like, you were like, didn't you find, you found triple stacked IEDs in your position?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So dumbest thing ever. We went in and we cleared it. And then we had like Marines EOD, like Marsoc EOD clear stuff. Like there was like unexploded RPG round on the side of one of the walls. And then there was all the booby traps. Well, it turns out where we were rolling all of our like big barrels for the generator and stuff like that was like, it was all booby trapped, right where exactly where we stepped. And this guy Sergeant Barton, he's a great guy. He, there's this metal out of the ground. He's like, huh, what's that? He starts beating on it with a shovel. And I'm going, I'm getting ready to go on my R and R.

• 1:03:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Ting, I'm like, what are you doing, dude?

• 1:03:19Jocko Willink?

  God.

• 1:03:20Speaker 01

  Something in the ground here, just looking, looking at it. He starts digging around. He's like, oh, oh, that's not, oh shit. And then turns out we were rolling these 50 gallon drums, taking all this supplies right over top, right in the breezeway.

• 1:03:31Jocko Willink?

  Good God.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  It's where I would, so it was so hot there. And, uh, I mean, I get Iraq's hot too, but it was so hot. Like me and my buddy, who was one of my team leaders, um, would go out there, we'd spray ourselves with water bottle. Be in our PT shorts, spray ourselves with the water bottle, lay on our cots and just see how long it took to dry. Usually about 10 to 15 minutes to get completely dry. And our cots were right on top of these. Just had no idea. Cause I mean, EOD came through and they didn't find anything.

• 1:03:57Jocko Willink?

  So was it, do you figure it was like a command debt that had the battery died or something?

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a, yeah, well, it was, um, uh, pressure plates.

• 1:04:05Jocko Willink?

  Oh my god.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  So like these big drums were having the circuit connect, but the batteries in them died. You know, luckily we didn't take the property to, you know, after like the, I think after the Marsoc guys got hit, um, they went in there and booby trapped it all, knowing that we were trying to take it, but somehow the batteries didn't, didn't work. Which helped out for us because like we jumped over a rock wall that they had, where there was like a hole in the wall already from, uh, probably a hellfire or something from time before. So right where we, you know, obviously be an easy place for us to jump over. That's where we all jumped over and there was stuff stacked there too. So.

• 1:04:36Jocko Willink?

  It's where you talk about it in here, um, and, and I heard this from the Vietnam SEALs. They would set up ambushes on VC and they would, you know, go, okay, we're going to shoot from here. And when we shoot from here, they're going to take cover over here behind this log. So they'd put a big claymore underneath that log. And they're, you're, you're talking about how the Taliban is doing the same thing over there. Um, you know, basically, oh, as soon as we start shooting at them, they're going to run to these covered positions. So we'll just put booby traps or mines in any of these covered positions.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we actually had to, uh, change up our, uh, SOPs or standing operating procedures on my third deployment. And instead of diving for cover, you had to take a knee.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you, yeah, that's, that's what I was reading and I was just, that's what it reminded me of. It reminded me of, that's what, that's what my predecessors in the SEAL teams in Vietnam would do to the enemy. And now the enemy was doing it to us or to you guys. It's really scary. Um, this is, this is an interesting spot. You're heading home for leave from there. I left in May and caught a series of connecting flights home to America. I gave Kelsey a huge kiss at the airport. In Dallas, when I got back to the house, gave our dog buddy a big hug. It felt great to be back, but it also felt surreal. And this is the strange part of this leave time. I didn't quite know what to do with myself. I could take a hot shower anytime I wanted. I could sit on the couch and play video games.

• 1:05:53Jocko Willink?

  I could drink a beer and eat a cheeseburger outside on the back porch. Nobody was shooting at me. Nobody stunk. Nobody was sleeping on triple stacked IEDs.

• 1:06:05Jocko Willink?

  Kelsey was finishing up the semester with college and work, so I bought a truck and we drove up to Michigan to see my parents. We had a few bright and happy days with them, then it was soon time to go, just like that. I hugged my parents, gave Kelsey a big kiss, and flew out to Detroit to head back overseas. It felt oddly good to be back to Afghanistan. The feeling is difficult to explain. In America, when I'd hung around with some friends in Dallas and got reacquainted with some of my buddies from high school back in Michigan, I'd seen firsthand how most of the people my age lived. If a dude was 22 or 23 like me, he was usually finishing up college or hanging out, trying to find an internship or an entry level job.

• 1:06:47Jocko Willink?

  He might be living in his parents' basement, trying to scrape together enough money to move out. Or maybe he was partying hard on weekends, or maybe still in a frat. He was almost always short on money, almost always wondering what to do with his future. Not that there was anything wrong with any of that, a guy's gotta do what a guy's gotta do. But by contrast, at my age in the military, I led people in combat. I controlled firefights. I handled hundreds of thousands of dollars' worth of equipment. I made decisions that affected whether people would live or die. It felt real. On a personal level, I made decent money. I was married. I had a good credit score. I was thinking of buying a house soon. It felt good to be trusted with this much responsibility.

• 1:07:33Jocko Willink?

  I was proud of my drive and sense of accomplishment. I was already a man.

• 1:07:41Jocko Willink?

  I think statements like that are like what get kids, or if I say kids, but like when I meet kids, like I've just met at this event we were just at and this, you know, he's like, hey, I'm 19, I just joined the Marine Corps, I'm leaving September 18th. And that, statements like that. Is what I think makes people join the gets a lot of people to join the military like 22 years old.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:03Jocko Willink?

  You're getting paid. You got a steady job. Your job is more meaningful than any job they could have. I mean, never mind. Maybe they're working at fast food, right? Like I did. You know, never mind that they're working at Wendy's. Even if they have a kick ass job somewhere, it doesn't matter. Your job is more meaningful because you're a soldier fighting for freedom.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and they would, you know, you go back home and you see what they're doing. You're like, wow, not a lot's changed. And I'm like, I've been in Afghanistan. I got married. I have an apartment. I, you know, I have two cars, whatever. And it's at that young of an age. I mean, and my friends back home, they they were still really nice and, you know, I still get along with them and everything. I just felt like what I was doing was was a different purpose and and I was trusted with more things. I mean, when you're in college and everybody's like, oh, you're a kid in college. But when you're in the army and you're like, oh, you're in your army. You're on your second deployment, you know, how what do you do? Well, I'm in charge of seven other lives included as well as my own. And I tell them where to move, what to do, how to shoot and how to how to do things. And they're like, oh, OK.

• 1:09:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I'll get some kid in the gym in my gym will be like, oh, well, you know, well, I'm only 23. And I'll, oh, yeah, when I was 23, I was in my third SEAL platoon. Killing people. Actually, we weren't. We were drinking beers because there was nothing going on, but anyways. Killing Budweiser. Killing Budweiser like a like a beast.

• 1:09:22Jocko Willink?

  So then how did you feel about that two weeks of leave during the middle of deployment?

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it's a constant worry. Like, how are my guys doing? We had a satellite phone. We didn't have internet or things like that. So I couldn't just like hit them up real quick on a.

• 1:09:35Jocko Willink?

  Because the army makes you do that.

• 1:09:37Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, yeah, they they allow it and then they they say you need, you know, this stuff and.

• 1:09:41Jocko Willink?

  But they're pretty, aren't they? Don't they push it pretty hard?

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:09:45Jocko Willink?

  Okay, I always thought they pushed it hard.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  Well, that's. And I don't discriminate, I don't know how to say this politically correct. There's the army that's at Bagram Air Force Base that wears PT belts that, you know, goes to Dunkin', goes against their Dunkin' Donuts. And that complains because the latte's too hot. And then there's the people like us where it's like, there's 22 of us or 21 of us, sitting out in the middle of nowhere. Taking no showers. No one's going to come say, hey, you need to do this. We had one kid come out and I ran into him again in Lansing, Michigan, actually at an event, you know, out of the military and I didn't realize it was him. But he came out, he chose to be a financial guy, enlisted in the financial world and that's fine. Hey, you want to do finance, you want to work in the S4 shop? Great. Comes out, they're giving a survey, some dumb survey that they're just, whatever, big army wants.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  You know, the good idea fairies or whatever, but he's on the rooftop and he's like, oh man, I hope we get in a gunfight, this is gonna be great. And look over and say, excuse me? And he's like, well, no, I just, you know, because I'm on the fob all the time, I just, I love, I want to see a gun, you know, I hope we get in a firefight. I said, what don't you get, if they shoot at us, my guys could get hit for what you're hoping happens here. I said, I got an idea, get off my roof. And he's like, well, I said, no, seriously, get, I'm gonna throw you off this roof if you don't get off it. And he looked at Critter, one of my, one of my guys and Critter goes, oh no, Sergeant Mills is real, he'll throw you off this roof. And I said, if we get shot at, don't get in my guys' way, stay the fuck off the roof and get down. And he was just like, but I don't get it. I'm like, it's not a game.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  This isn't, I mean, when we get in a firefight, you know, we get, you know, people run up in their PT shorts and their flip flops and they got their Kevlar on and their body armor, but. I mean, that's real life, bullets are flying and the way he was just so nonchalant, I hope we get in a firefight, that'd be really cool. It's like, my guys could get shot. Like, what part of cool don't you get? So, I mean, you know, the army does push some things, but other times, we're just left alone.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I just remember guys going from, from guys that were in combat all the time, not fobbits, but. And they, it seemed like the command, their commands wanted them to go home for those two weeks and hey, man, you need to take this break on your.

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  Oh, the leave's mandatory, yeah, I thought you meant like calling home, calling home stuff's not mandatory.

• 1:11:52Jocko Willink?

  Oh no, I meant going home, sorry.

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to go home.

• 1:11:54Jocko Willink?

  You have to go, okay, that's what I thought.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  And a lot of guys, some guys don't want to, but you have to.

• 1:11:58Jocko Willink?

  You know, the calling home thing, I think is, is, I don't know how often you called home, but I tried to call them like once a week.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  Once or twice a week.

• 1:12:05Jocko Willink?

  Because if you start doing more than that, I think it's worse on both of you.

• 1:12:08Speaker 01

  Well, you run out of things to say. Well, it's cool, you know, for, I mean, no offense to anybody's love life out there, but in my life, I mean, I get along great, you know, but. When I would call home, hey, what are you doing? Well, I just another day in Afghanistan. I don't want to be like, well, I was out and I got shot at and then I ended up killing two people. And then this guy got hurt, but it's, it's okay. He's going to be fine.

• 1:12:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, don't worry about me.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  You know, so you can't say that kind of stuff like, oh, well, you know, I went on patrol today. Got to help a, help a kid tie a shoe, you know? And like that gets old and then what'd you do? Well, I went to school today and I mean, there's no real story there. So I, you gotta let it build for a week or two. You know?

• 1:12:40Jocko Willink?

  I, I definitely recommend that.

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I mean that the nicest way possible.

• 1:12:43Jocko Willink?

  No, no, totally. And I think if you're, if you're calling home every day, then you're like, you're, you're missing it. You're connecting and just like, no, like you said, let it build. Have something to talk about real and.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  Well, cause then it gets annoying like, well, what are you thinking about? And then you get, you know, and I, I see it happen. I, you know, I, I even say I, it happened to me and Kelsey. Um, you know, like, what are you thinking about? Well, no, what are you thinking? What do you want to talk about? I don't know. Oh, you got nothing to talk to me about? It's like, no, I don't. And it's not a bad thing. It's not that I love you any less. It's that literally I can't tell you what happened here. Cause it's not going to make you feel better about the situation. And so.

• 1:13:17Jocko Willink?

  And you know, another like thing is, you know, you got all this stuff going on and then your wife's like, you won't believe this. And you're like, what? And she's like, um, we lost that library book that we got out and now they called and they want us to pay for it. And you're like, just cut the check. Just give them the check. We're going to be good.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  Well, are they overcharging them? Do your research. Can you find it online, you know, cheaper?

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, yeah, some of the, the big, the big.

• 1:13:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the big drama, drama at home.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  You know, the wide eyed like, oh no. It's like, that's not, okay. Well, I watched the guy bleed, bleed out today. I had to, had to put my finger in a bullet hole. So I get what you're saying. Same thing. I was like, whoa, my God, can you believe this? But you go ahead, tell me about what happened with you today.

• 1:14:05Jocko Willink?

  Tell me about the spoiled mayonnaise that you had on your sandwich.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's no joke. That's awful.

• 1:14:11Jocko Willink?

  You get home from that deployment. Going back to the book, my parents flew down from Michigan, Josh and Deanna. This is your, Josh is your brother-in-law. Deanna is his wife. Were there and some of the guys from my unit came over. I manned the barbecue. The smell of charcoal-fired hamburgers drifted over the neighborhood and I felt like the luckiest man alive. Kelsey and I had a dog, two cars, and now a house. We were a young family, living the American dream. So you had the gold mine house and now you actually bought one, right?

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  Law of attorney. I called my wife and she's like, guess what I did today? I was like, what? She goes, I bought a house. I'm like, how did you do that? She's like, well, you bought it. Signed that piece of paper, law of attorney. So, speaking of jokes I tell every time I talk. But, uh, no, we bought a house and then my brother-in-law, he was, they had a young, uh, young child. They still do Reagan, but at the time she was, uh, like seven, eight months old, I guess. And I was like, you drinking tonight, Josh? She goes, I have responsibilities. You know, like, oh, I'm, I'm all holier-than-thou or something like, I can't drink. And then by the end of the night, he passed out in a fire ant hill. Junk as could be. Smoked a pack of cigarettes. He doesn't even smoke cigarettes, smoked a pack of cigarettes. Trying to wake him up, he's in a fire ant hill in my backyard like, oh, that hurts so bad. And I was like, responsibilities, huh?

• 1:15:22Jocko Willink?

  Famous last words. Back to the book. Fortunately, after I got home, I didn't struggle with any past memories of combat, although I do, I know any number of soldiers who do. I told a few stories to Kelsey about our unit's time in Robat and BMG. About going without a shower for so long and about some firefight we got into at Impala and Corvette. But she didn't like to talk about those things much. And I understood that. I found I could shut off the memories pretty easily. My logic was straightforward. I was a combat soldier. That's what I did. I told my mind to go to certain places and I refused to allow it to go to other places.

• 1:16:01Jocko Willink?

  I found that I could connect with my family best that way, although I know other guys handled things differently with equal success.

• 1:16:10Jocko Willink?

  And the reason I threw that in there is just because, you know, I get a lot of guys that ask me about how to handle the, the whatever memories they're bringing home. And I thought that was a, you know, a pretty good methodology, man. Like, okay, I'm not going to think about that right now.

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it wasn't like I had to bury it. Um, you, you're just so desensitized when you're over there, like, um, I'm pretty sure the book talks about it, but we went on patrol and then one of the ANA guys or AMP was wearing a bright green, you know, uh, like a construction vest. And, uh, we were all in the, getting ready to load up in the trucks and someone made the joke, I think it was me or maybe Critter, but either way we were like, well, that guy's going to get shot today. Cause he stood out. He ended up being the only guy that was shot that day and he ended up dying, you know, eventually from his wounds, but she's like, oh, well, he got, yup, that guy died, but you're just, you don't say it like hoping to get shot, but you're just like, well, that's part of what happens. But, uh, she didn't like hearing my stories of the combat and things like that. So I was just like, well, I guess I won't talk about them. She's like, you just get so excited about telling those stories and you laugh about it and it's real serious. I'm like, well, I made it, like, you know?

• 1:17:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  But you still snap into action. I was driving to my house with my buddy and we went past the firing, uh, range and they opened up the two forties and like, I hit, hit the brakes, contact right, contact right. And I pull over and me and him are both, uh, reaching for our, our M4s. We're supposed to be next to us. We're like, oh, yeah.

• 1:17:26Jocko Willink?

  I'm in a minivan.

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  It was a Chevy Impala.

• 1:17:31Jocko Willink?

  For me, it was a minivan.

• 1:17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's beautiful. I have a minivan. I love it.

• 1:17:36Jocko Willink?

  Oh, speaking of minivans, you found out you're, you're, uh, going to be a daddy at this point too, when you came home from your second deployment.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Oh no, that'd be awful. If I came home from second deployment, I found I was going to be a dad. It took us a little while.

• 1:17:46Jocko Willink?

  Oh, well.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Four months after I got back, we found out we were gonna, yeah.

• 1:17:50Jocko Willink?

  Right on.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, that gets confusing when I get home.

• 1:17:52Jocko Willink?

  I wasn't trying to imply anything.

• 1:17:54Speaker 01

  No, I know, I know. Yeah, but we, uh, yeah, so, uh, didn't plan on it right away. Um, you know, having children, but found out we were going to have children or have a daughter and worked out great, you know, I'm very excited. Did the whole nesting thing. My wife had a sweet Mazda three hatchback. She loved it.

• 1:18:10Jocko Willink?

  Nesting thing?

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  You know, like set the baby room up, get everything ready. I kept telling my wife, cause I bought her a brand new car in 2010. It was brand new off the line. Mazda three hatchback. She loves it, loved it. And I was like, that baby seat's not going to fit in that car. And she's like, yeah, it's going to be fine. I'm like, no, it's not. Finally I got so mad one day, like after arguing with her about it, I went out there and I popped the car seat in. I said, go ahead and jump in your driver's seat, honey. Go ahead, jump in there. And she couldn't fit. She's like, oh, just get rid of it then. She was so mad. Loved every second of it.

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  You know, cause then I won. I won that game.

• 1:18:41Jocko Willink?

  You were right. That feels good.

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  I got you off topic. So yeah, we were gonna have a kid.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  I'm straight on topic. Way tight on topic over here.

• 1:18:51Speaker 01

  I know you're, yeah. Well, you're a professional. I didn't doubt that.

• 1:18:56Jocko Willink?

  September 27th, 2011, our daughter was born. Wow. I made some weird noises in the back of my throat. There our kid was with goo all over her and she was wrinkly and scrunched up and all I could think of that she was the most beautiful thing in the world. It's okay to cry, the nurse said. I didn't know how to cry. So I just kept making weird noises in my throat.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  It was awkward. I was like. And the nurse is like, it's okay. It's okay to cry, Mr. Mills. I'm like, I don't know how to cry. And I went, woo.

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  That was weird. And this lady's like, this guy's taking this kid home. I mean, I almost fought the pediatrician that day. Like one of the kids, they were talking about Belgium beer or some damn thing. And like, I hear the two doctors talking. My kid's in there crying and the nurse comes out and said, hey, who's supposed to be looking at my kid? And they're like, oh, doctor, this you have a baby in there. He goes, I don't have one in there. And she goes, you must have forgot. He goes, huh? I must have forgot, huh? And chuckles it off and then goes back talking. And I told the nurse, said, get that kid back in that room. And I turn around to that guy and I'm already up like, you know, 18, 20 hours. Cause we went into labor induced or whatever and eyes are bloodshot and I'm just like still jacked from lifting weights. And I'm like, you know, you're not gonna look at my kid. Find me a better pediatrician. And the guy's like, and I had to go get Kelsey something. And then they came in. She was, they were very nice when they came in.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  I was like, I don't know why. You know, I'm towering over this guy like, I will beat you if you touch my kid. You're not doing your job, bro.

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  Then we, then we put her in the car seat, take her home and we get home and my mother in law is with us and we're looking and Kelsey goes, goes to get out of the car. She goes, why is she not buckled? I said, damn it. I thought you did. She goes, Travis, I thought you did it. So. Strike, you know, strike one for my kid.

• 1:20:35Jocko Willink?

  Good dad award, number one. Coming out of the gates, coming out of the gates strong.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Epic fail, 45 minute drive, no car seat, no buckled car seat. I'm a good driver.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's good. Luckily. And meanwhile, this time you're still a soldier. You go to, you go to jump master school and. You failed jump master school the first time.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. And the sad part, it wasn't like the J N P I.

• 1:20:57Jocko Willink?

  What part did you fail?

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  The written exam. Yeah, that reading, it's fundamental.

• 1:21:03Jocko Willink?

  That academic part of jump master school, I've heard that's the most brutal part.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  It was rough, it was rough. And I failed, I failed that and everyone was like, oh, you must be a dumbass for failing. I'm like, I am, yeah. But I went back the next, you know, the next cycle and I ended up passing.

• 1:21:18Jocko Willink?

  Through. You know, I thought it was cool in here, you talked about, you know, one kid you threw out the plane.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I give.

• 1:21:27Jocko Willink?

  Another kid you kicked out the plane.

• 1:21:28Speaker 01

  They were fine.

• 1:21:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and that's the thing, they came and thanked you later. Cause they're just like scared, right?

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  I'm not sure if they made it, I don't know.

• 1:21:37Jocko Willink?

  Well, in the book that you made up here.

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Jocko Willink?

  You claimed.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Most fabricated. No, yeah, so I give my brief and they always made the youngest or the, like the least senior guy give the brief. So like, you tell them the brief, if, you know, I say, green light, go, and you don't go, I'll give you the order two more times. If you don't jump, I will unhook you, attach you, give you off order, don't touch your equipment, throw, you know, say, go to the real paratroopers or whatever.

• 1:21:59Jocko Willink?

  That's what a no jumper, is that what it's called? Do they have a name for it?

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, jump refusal.

• 1:22:03Jocko Willink?

  Jump refusal, that's right.

• 1:22:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:05Jocko Willink?

  Military term for it.

• 1:22:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And then as I'd say my brief, you know, it's all three pages you gotta memorize, I'd stop my brief right there and say, but I guarantee you today, if you're on my door, you are going. So I told the guy, you know, green light, go, and then the first guy went, the second guy went, third guy went, fourth guy or whatever, they all go, and then finally I get to like thirteen or fourteen, I'm supposed to exit all, you know, thirty paratroopers, or thirty-two, whatever.

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  And this guy's like froze and I'm like, I know you, uh, think you're not gonna go, but you better jump out of this plane, and he's like, you know. And I said, I told you you were going, and then back of his shirt, back of his pants, I just threw him out. And then the person behind was like, I'm like, get going. And then another jump, the same thing happened, I said, I told you you were going, he's, they're frozen in the door, like, one foot back, I just grabbed the top, oh, sorry, backed up, grabbed the top of the plane, I just kicked right in the back of his parachute, out the door he went.

• 1:22:55Jocko Willink?

  I was like, we'd hear those rumors, but I never saw it happen.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, if they don't jump, they're gonna lose money. And then they're gonna waste a good pass and then the plane either can go back around, make another pass and like prolong everybody's night. And make it harder because I have a person I gotta do paperwork on now, which I don't like to do, or.

• 1:23:11Jocko Willink?

  You can barely write from what I understand so far.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  No right hand, so at least be right handed, so everybody expect, but that's cool. Take, take pokes at me with my own mind.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  But, but yeah, I mean, I, so it was just fear got the best of them. And I was just like, no, we're going today and you're, you know, I said some other choice words in their ear, but they went.

• 1:23:29Jocko Willink?

  But what I liked about that from like a broader perspective than just airborne school is like so often, man, people just need to like go. Cause like you said, once you go and you get that first thing under your belt, then they go and they jump. It's no problem. You know, but so often people are, they just hesitate, they're just scared of the unknown, you know? And what you gotta do is just go, just jump.

• 1:23:48Speaker 01

  Well, my fifth jump in airborne school, back when I was, you know, PV2 mills. I jumped out and it was nighttime combat. I was so scared. I didn't know what to do. But I was like, I'm not gonna be the big sissy on this airplane, you know? So I dove out like Superman and I got my left leg caught up in the risers. I was coming down like a, like a flamingo and my chute started to collapse on me. And I was shaking my, I was falling fast and everybody had pulled my reserve.

• 1:24:11Jocko Willink?

  You, you, you pulled your reserve at airborne school?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:14Jocko Willink?

  No kidding?

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  They were mad about that.

• 1:24:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  But I was dropping fast and I.

• 1:24:17Jocko Willink?

  I guess you survived, which is a good thing.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but my, my leg was tangled up so bad. So then the first jump into vision, I'm like, oh, I don't know if I want to do this anymore. And then the guy in front of me went and I was like, well, okay, he, he did it.

• 1:24:29Jocko Willink?

  That's, yeah, that's not good to have a, uh, have to pull your reserve at airborne school.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  But I mean, it wasn't because of malfunction, it was because of my own stupidity. I dove out like Superman, my left leg got caught up in there and I couldn't shake it out. And then I was like watching the silhouettes above me, they're like, pull your reserve mills. I'm like, okay.

• 1:24:48Jocko Willink?

  You pick up E6. So now you're, now you're staff sergeant, take over a weapons squad.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Which is a senior spot, but I was, I went to work that day on the, I got picked, finished AL, ALC or whatever. And which is an E6 course. I went to my first sergeant, I have offers in, you know, second and first brigade. Uh, 508, I'm, I'm gonna take those. I don't have a squad leader spot, you know, when I get back from this four day vacation or four day break. I came back and they gave me the senior spot. Here you go.

• 1:25:19Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:25:22Jocko Willink?

  And Kelsey, she didn't really want you to go overseas again, did she?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  I mean, yes and no. She understood it, but I mean, obviously, no wife wants their loved one to go overseas or their husband to go overseas, but we just bought a house. The baby was just born. Quite frankly, we could have used, we could use the tax-free money. Hundred percent, we could use that, the money that you get from being over there. And also, we have the soldiers come to my house and have barbecues. And she sees how they look up to me and how I'm in charge of them. And it's this whole camaraderie and brotherhood thing. I had orders to Fort Hood. I had my sergeant major cancel them. I was like, I don't know why you're kicking me out. He goes, I'm not kicking you out. I said, Sergeant Major, I have orders of Fort Hood. And he's like, you not want to go? I said, no, I need to deploy with these guys. So he's just like, I'll take care of it.

• 1:26:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. The way you put it in the book is the reason I went overseas was because of the soldier next to me, the guys in my squad. Our job was to protect America and keep the Taliban at bay. I trained my men. I taught them all I knew. It was my job to take care of them. I couldn't imagine them deploying without me.

• 1:26:23Speaker 01

  And I mean, I was quite frankly upset when I got those orders. But they were building a new brigade and they wanted combat NCOs with over two years of combat experience to go help, you know, lead these guys. And I was like, noble, I get it, but not, not for me right now.

• 1:26:40Jocko Willink?

  You're leaving.

• 1:26:43Jocko Willink?

  And Josh is going away at the same time, your brother-in-law, your wife's brother, going away, same time. Here we go, back to the book. She was in tears, a beautiful mess. Josh was leaving on that same deployment too, but a day later than I was. So he came to see me off and support his sister. I hugged him and he hugged me back. Chloe was five months old and sleeping soundly in her car seat. She never woke up when I kissed her cheek. I unstrapped my daughter, picked her up and cradled her tightly one last time in my arms. She inhaled deeply, smiled, and carried on sleeping. Then I waved goodbye. Walking away from my loved ones, I had to ask myself if this third deployment felt different from the first two. I had a child to think about now, a family.

• 1:27:29Jocko Willink?

  I knew there would be tense days and firefights ahead, but honestly, I wasn't afraid of dying. I wouldn't be reckless and make myself an easy target, and I didn't want to die. But I knew that if I got hit, then I got hit. If it happened, then it was meant to be. As a soldier, it's not like I talk about my emotions every day. I don't write poetry. I don't watch romantic comedies as a rule. I'm trained to kill people. That's what I do. You've got to be tough in the eighty second. You've got to be as hard as life. You don't want to show weakness ever, particularly with any of your guys around. When you're overseas and out in the middle of nowhere and you have twelve to twenty guys with you,

• 1:28:14Jocko Willink?

  you can't take a seat and say you're done. As a leader, I couldn't throw my helmet down and complain that things weren't fair. You have to make the best of it. You have to keep going. You've got to be as tough as they come. But even so, as I walked away from my wife and child and brother-in-law, the wind struck my eye. And I wiped away the wetness with the back of my sleeve. Harder going away on this deployment?

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah. It didn't feel right. I actually had a conversation with my brother-in-law in his garage with him. And I was like, you know, Josh, it's always a guy that you don't expect to get hit. That gets hit. And we started naming out the people from our deployments because we were the same brigade always, just different units. And I said, I just don't feel good about it, you know? I mean, not that I couldn't go where I wasn't going to go, but yeah, it was harder. You know, my wife and everything. I was supposed to leave the next day. I went to work and they're like, hey, look, we need you to take this truck of guys over. Can you leave tonight instead of tomorrow night? And I was like, well, yeah, but I gotta leave work right now. And I gotta go see my wife and my kid. And they're like, yeah, you can go. So I went. But it does, you know, I wouldn't say each deployment is harder. The second one wasn't hard for me to go.

• 1:29:31Speaker 01

  I mean, had to say goodbye, but part of my job. The third one was more, man, I hope I get, you know, to come back home. But you got to push those thoughts, you know, out of your head. You can't, I always tell people, we can't dwell on it. You can't think about it. You can't, you know, worry about what's going to happen. You gotta just push through and whatever happens does happen. But, you know, as long as you're not reckless and careless, you know, you can't affect what your outcome is going to be anyway. So you might as well just keep pushing forward.

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. You, and now you end up on this deployment, the fob or the strong point that you're in so small, it doesn't even have a name. Just like out in the middle of nowhere.

• 1:30:08Speaker 01

  This is strong point.

• 1:30:11Jocko Willink?

  And you got there, what was the, what was the environment like there?

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  I mean, the, the units that leave always give real great advice. Um, and their commander told our commander, you're not going to really change a lot of stuff here with how the rules of engagement is now. Um, because the rules of engagement is over different presidencies or different leadership changed. And they said, you know, when we go out, we take shaving cream, we line where we walked. You know, we come back, that's all you're gonna do. And of course, when we get there, we're hard charging. We're like, we're gonna go here, here, here, and here, and here. And SOPs changed, the bow space all changed. Um, we lived in, um, it like my first deployment, I was on a big FOB. Second deployment, I was in a row of little out, uh, little strong points and FOBs. Um, and then this one, we were just like, hey, here you go. We're gonna helicopter you in, you're dropped off.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  This is you. 360 around is all bad. And, uh, that's just how it was. So we'd go out. The first day we went out, got a huge firefight. Um, and that's when my guys really understood, like, I, I was in a lot of schools. Like, I went to college, I went to jump match school, went to the advanced leadership course, the ALC course for E6. So when I got back and I got to, uh, the weapons squad leader spot, some of the guys didn't know who I was from anybody.

• 1:31:24Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:31:24Speaker 01

  My first sergeant knew me, that's why I got the spot. But, um, the other guys were like, why the hell is it, this guy jokes around? He doesn't, he's not mean, he doesn't smoke anybody, he's, he's, you know, really, I was polite, I guess, or whatever. You know, normal, everyday guy, I didn't have this chip on my shoulder. After our first firefight, like, two of the guys that came from a different infantry unit were like, look, I didn't get why you were the squad leader, I didn't get how you got E6, um, and why you were in charge, but now I do. Because, you know, when shit hits the fan, I was, I was the guy that needed to be there, I guess.

• 1:31:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I mean, this firefight going, going to the book here. Uh, Sergeant Butler yelled, I'm hit, I'm hit. One of his team leaders, Sergeant Marty Miller, ran over to him and swept his hands along Butler's body to look for blood. Miller ran back to our lieutenant to report, we could, he couldn't find any.

• 1:32:11Jocko Willink?

  And you, you just, um,

• 1:32:15Jocko Willink?

  You sprinted out into this riverbed during this firefight's going on. And here you are, I'm still wearing my body armor, but I was essentially weaponless. If I'd kept my rifle, it would have only slowed me down. I ran over to where Sergeant Butler lay. He was probably 50 meters total away. "It's my leg," he shouted, "I can't put any weight on it." "Shut up," I yelled. "Get on my back now, let's go." Without waiting for him to answer, I grabbed his right hand with my left, squatted down and threw him over my shoulders in a fireman's carry. He was probably 185 pounds. I hefted him up and ran back to safety. So, there you go, just, uh... I understand, after you've performed like that in a firefight, your boy's like, "Oh yeah, we get it."

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Well, we, uh, yeah, so we were on one side of the wadi, the dry riverbed. And, uh, my CO was like, "We're gonna cross this riverbed." And we're like, "All right, I mean, that's really, really open, but let's do it." So, First, Second, and Headquarters, whatever, went across.

• 1:33:10Jocko Willink?

  Right, and just, just, I always have to point this stuff out. Cause we have a lot of guys that are in the military that listen to this. And, so you're just doing a classic cover and move. One element's gonna stay back on the high gr- or on one side of the river to cover as the other, other elements pushing across.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this was our first day in country, so we're just trying to learn the battle space. Cause we were thinking about setting up another, uh, OP or strong point on the, on the wadi. Cause there's a lot of traffic. And, um, they start to move over, over there, and they get about 50 meters away, 75 meters, whatever. And then, all hell breaks loose, shots from everywhere. And Third Squad and Fourth Squad, Weapon Squad, which is me, are over on the river, you know, riverbed. And we start laying in, everybody ducks down, takes cover, and, and I'm, I'm still standing, and I'm yelling, and I'm, one of my guns is shooting to the far left, where he should be shooting to the far right, he's the right element. So I walk over and I kick the team leader, you know, actually, I think I might have smacked his head real hard. And I said, "You need to fix this and fix it now." And I told him where to shoot.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  I went back over and, uh, directed some more traffic, and then, some of the, the other two team leaders from the Third Squad were just firing all their rounds. After we already gained some higher superiority, so I yelled at them, said, "You two know better, you've been here before. Control your rounds, control your fire, and just make sure it's suppressing." And then Butler went down and we're like, oh, Butler just got hit and he ended up tearing his MCL, ACL and meniscus or whatever. I mean, this is pretty bad damage. And my first sergeant's like, third squad, go and get him. And I, I said, oh, first sergeant, no worries. But I got it. So I took my weapon off and my M4, you know, and I was like, here, hold this for me. I tossed him my M4 because there's just, you know, it gets in the way. And I ran down. Then the A and A and A were on the riverbank, right, kind of right behind where they're at. I said, you guys do not shoot. I said, don't you can shoot, you know, don't you shoot me in the back.

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  Sorry about that. I ain't gonna edit that, but or maybe you don't. But I was like, don't you guys shoot me? So I ran out and got him, took him back and I set him down. So I ran out 50, came back and took him about, about 50 to 80 behind the building, set him down. I sat down to get a drink of water. My first sergeant goes, Sergeant Mills, need you back here. I'm like, oh, okay. I ran back. I was like, oh crap, where's my gun? And Marty had it. So Marty's like, oh, here you go. And I was the last one on the objective.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  We had to hike back two miles with Butler on a stretcher, but I was the last one with the FO on the objective. Pop and smoke for the Kiwas to come over and cover our movement.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  The two guys I yelled at, the ones that told me they'd follow me to hell and back, like, we get it now, Sergeant Mills, we'll follow you to hell and back. They were just, kept shooting. I'm like, you guys are team leaders. You've been here. What are you doing?

• 1:35:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's awesome, man.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Just reality check.

• 1:35:36Jocko Willink?

  It's a, it's another example. I mean, again, just you're talking about how you were in leadership position. You're just backed off a little bit. You're, you're paying attention to what's going on instead of you being on your gun and shooting. You're backed off. You're watching. And that's what you need to do in a leadership position. You gotta back off a little bit. You gotta observe what's happening. You gotta make sense of what's happening. And then you gotta make sure that people are doing the right things.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, you know, if I shot my gun, I mean, that's great. I got the chance to shoot my M4 and do what I had to do. But if I wasn't controlling my two heavy weapons squad, you know, like I had the 240. That was the king of the battlefield, if you will, with the heaviest firepower that I was in charge of. If they weren't doing the job the right way, then we were all in trouble.

• 1:36:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. As I always say, God bless the machine gunners.

• 1:36:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:27Jocko Willink?

  And that, it sounds like that deployment was, I mean, the, the firefights that you talk about in here were

• 1:36:35Jocko Willink?

  a lot. You're getting a lot of firefights.

• 1:36:37Speaker 01

  Every other day, if not every day.

• 1:36:39Jocko Willink?

  And so, so this one here, you went out and did this raid, um, and then you get word after you do this raid, that there's no aircraft to come and pick you up from the raid and go ahead and walk back.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:53Jocko Willink?

  That's good times.

• 1:36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, uh, we went out, we, um, I told my guys, like, look, it's gonna be hellacious, bring extra. We had each of us 2,000 rounds of 762.

• 1:37:02Jocko Willink?

  Dang.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  And then we also had, um, I always carried 2,000 rounds of 762, or I guess depending on the mission, it would change between 1,000 and 2,000. And then I carried 20 grenades, 10 on my, on my, uh, armor and 10 in my bag and then another, uh, 20, 40 mic, because I had a 203.

• 1:37:20Jocko Willink?

  Jesus.

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  And then 420, um, 556 rounds, like, not in my magazines and I always had 12.

• 1:37:26Jocko Willink?

  Bro, that's like freaking 200 pounds.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, would, yeah, but without, without ammunition, you're kind of screwed.

• 1:37:32Jocko Willink?

  That's true, good point.

• 1:37:33Speaker 01

  So I always had 12 magazines on my person and then I'd have, you know, 13th one in my, in the chamber. So I had 13 full magazines on me. Not because 13 is like some special number, just because like my mag pouches were, yeah, my mag pouch was, you know, too deep. So I could have six, three on each side.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we went out there and we ended up getting like seven different firefights on the way back home. We had four detainees. And, uh, I got, I got, um, I got put next to the gun the one time and you know how, it's called pigtail and rattail, they call it. When you put your 762 link in, you have one side come out and then you, you know, switch back it in and the other side come out. So when you hook to a gun, it pulls out of your bag and then if you have another bag next to you, you clip it together. Well, we shot through all my rounds one, and one of the things, we shot through all the, the 762 rounds. I was like, oh, this is so much like lighter. And I got to another spot and one of my, my guys, Brandon, um, Fessy, he was one of the guys that got hurt with me later on, but he was almost knocked, like passed now, so heavy. I said, oh, I take my bag. He goes, no, I got it. So I was like,

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  give me your bag. Don't argue with me. And I was like, you need to make it back to the FOB. And then our, uh, our PA, the, that came out with us, awesome guy, Ranger, uh, regiment guy. And he's turned into a doctor. He was dehydrating really bad on the walk back, going hallucinations and stuff. So, um, We decided, me and two other guys, or three other guys, we went ahead and just trot ahead and walked faster than everybody else and like made it back to the fob first to get a, get a MRAP to come get them. But, yeah. And we actually, one of the guys we detained, we detained all these guys, they had 600 pounds homemade explosives, batteries, RPGs. The thing was a drone followed their RPG team back on a motorcycle to this compound, AK-47s, but we didn't get pictures with all their stuff.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  So we turned them over to the local national government and they said, well, you didn't get pictures, these guys are, these guys are free. So they let them go. Turns out, the guy that, we had detained one of them, because we hided them, fingerprints were all over my bomb. And there was 13 bombs in a row, and they were all over the bombs that, the one that I hit. So, the guy that we captured is the one that put the bomb in. Alpha Troop caught him, the ANA took care of him.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  So.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  Alright.

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  Sorry, did I bring it down to tone?

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  No. Going to April 10th, 2012, you get some intel in the afternoon that there's a IED out in the village and you guys are gonna go check it out. And here we're going to the book, we hiked only about 400 yards to the village. In addition to my weapons team, there were other squads along on patrol, a total of 28 soldiers. My lieutenant, Zachary Lewis, went to the left with the first and second squads, heading to meet with the village elders, while the rest of our men went with me around the village to the outside to offer support in case of an attack. Along with my gun team, I had my platoon sergeant and a medic, Sergeant Daniel Bateson, with my group.

• 1:40:34Jocko Willink?

  All looked calm. It was just another day in Afghanistan, another normal patrol. We approached an abandoned ANA security post, two portable buildings, and stopped near the buildings to establish a security perimeter. I called for FSC to bring the Minesweeper.

• 1:40:53Jocko Willink?

  "Check this area," was the only order I gave. Fessy walked up a path used by villagers and scanned all of the area around. He went up and back and all was clear. No beeps. There was no reason to question anything. Fessy finished his mine sweeping duties and went up and went to set up on the far flank. I called Riot up to me and asked him where he thought we should put the gun. I knew where it should go, but I wanted to let him decide, making sure he knew his stuff. He motioned to exactly where I thought we should put it, a good spot, and I said, "All right, go get Neff and bring him up here." That was it.

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  Riot left to go get Neff, and as he did, I set my backpack down. The backpack touching the dirt was all it took. Such a simple act of war. My world erupted. I saw a flash of flame and heard a huge kaboom. Hot jagged pieces of explosives ripped through me. I cartwheeled backward, end over end, hit the ground, and slammed my face hard against the compacted earth. Instantly, I felt my left eye starting to swell shut. I smelled burning flesh, my own.

• 1:42:13Jocko Willink?

  I tasted dirt, and I was wet with sweat and moisture, just like I'd walked out of a hot shower.

• 1:42:20Jocko Willink?

  Dirt fell everywhere through the air. It rained down and clung to my eyes, nose, and mouth. I don't remember rolling over, but I must have, because I glanced to the side and saw that my right arm was completely gone.

• 1:42:33Jocko Willink?

  I caught a glimpse of my left arm covered in blood and tattered. My arm trembled as if it had a will of its own. I looked down and saw my right leg was also gone. The stump looked like a piece of raw meat. The bottom of my left leg was still attached, but held on only by a few strands of skin. I saw all this in a flash, in an instant.

• 1:42:58Jocko Willink?

  I felt confusion but no panic. My first thought of was of my guys. I flopped my remaining arm toward the microphone clipped to my carrier plate and somehow managed to push the button. "I hit a bomb," I said. "I need help." Bateson, my medic, rushed up to me along with Staff Sergeant Keith Hambright, our platoon sergeant. Only about thirty seconds had passed since the blast. Immediately, they applied tourniquets to hold whatever blood was still inside me. "I'm not gonna make it," I said. "Leave me and go to save my guys." "Shut up, Sergeant Mills," said Bateson. "Let me do my job." I ignored Bateson and yelled my men's name like roll call: "Fessy, Riot, Neff," to see if they were okay.

• 1:43:42Jocko Willink?

  Two were hit, Fessy and Riot, and other medics were already caring for them. They were bleeding, but nothing was missing. They yelled back that they were gonna be okay. I calmed down. More soldiers ran toward me. Sergeant Alex's voice and other medic wondered aloud where to best get IV access. There were no pulses to check except for my carotid artery. He quickly ripped open my vest, shaved a spot on my chest, and put an IV straight into my sternum. It hurt going in, and I must have howled because he yelled at me that I was gonna be fine. I yelled back, "Doc, shut up. I know." He and I both calmed down.

• 1:44:29Jocko Willink?

  Someone stuck a fentanyl pop in my mouth. It's a potent painkiller that releases as the pop dissolves. I downed the first one, spit out the stick, and asked for another. "You won't need it," someone said.

• 1:44:41Jocko Willink?

  I was still thinking that I was going to die. I didn't want to show fear. I didn't want to freak out. You never want to show fear around your men. "Let me, let my family know I dealt with it without crying," I said. "Tell them yourself," someone grunted. He was being encouraging, letting me know I wasn't dead yet.

• 1:45:05Jocko Willink?

  I tried to see around me. I raised my head, wanting to get a visual of Fessy and Riot. Someone shoved my head back down. But I still commanded a voice.

• 1:45:18Jocko Willink?

  My one eye was swollen completely shut.

• 1:45:22Jocko Willink?

  The other eye was blurry from dirt. I tried to raise my head again. Again, I was pushed flat. My eyes were watering now, the dirt turning to mud. Time passed and I didn't know what was happening. I mumbled something, but there was no reply. Only the steady whoop, whoop, whoop of a Black Hawk helicopter touching down nearby. Six men surrounded me, hefted me up and carried me over. All told, it might have been ten minutes since the blast until the helicopter arrived.

• 1:45:52Jocko Willink?

  Fessy and Riot were first inside the helicopter. Everything was foggy and noisy and I couldn't make out my surroundings clearly. My two guys were on seats and I saw blood and bandages jumbled in their direction. Fessy had shrapnel in his face, Riot had shrapnel in his face, legs and hands. Their images faded away.

• 1:46:13Jocko Willink?

  I focused on the noise of the rotors.

• 1:46:17Jocko Willink?

  We were in the air and the flight medic were taking care of me.

• 1:46:22Jocko Willink?

  Riot yelled in pain. I tried to look around. Someone needed to attend to Riot. Where are the medics? One of the medics was talking to the pilots up front. Riot was yelling again. I looked in Fessy's direction and told him to calm down. Fessy nodded. Riot stopped yelling and I winked at him to let him know he was gonna be okay. It was all I could think to do.

• 1:46:45Jocko Willink?

  The flight medic was in back in view. I could barely see him through the goop in my eyes. He wore a green flight suit and had a big Darth Vader helmet. I tried to speak. He gave me a quizzical look. I yelled as loud as I could. "Take your helmet off." He took his helmet off. "Give my guys water and tell them they're gonna be okay," I barked. "Don't worry. I'll take care of them for you," he said. He was busy with some task on me that I couldn't see. A moment went by and I added, "I'm sorry." "For what?" the medic asked. "For making you take your helmet off."

• 1:47:22Jocko Willink?

  He gave me a wry grin. I realized he'd been doing his job all along, doing it well. Both the medic's head.

• 1:47:32Jocko Willink?

  I just couldn't see all that was happening around me. My mind went in and out. I was coherent but fuzzy in spots. In fifteen minutes, the helicopter landed in Kandahar. Hospital staff rushed me straight to the operating table. "We're gonna put you under now," came a voice from above me. "I'm fine," I said. "Leave me alone." The mask came over my face and I tried to push it away. I remember asking one question.

• 1:48:03Jocko Willink?

  "Am I ever going to see my baby girl again?"

• 1:48:21Speaker 01

  A little intense.

• 1:48:22Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, uh...

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  There might have been some more choice words I didn't put in the book I said to the flight medic. I had to yell three times. And then the last time I threw the F-word in there, "Take your F-ing helmet off." And he did. Uh, in my head, I was just thinking, "Saving Private Ryan, don't go out yelling like for your mom like the medic when he got shot in the movie." And, uh, I just, you know, I was a guy that I had a sniper round crack next to my head and I rolled in and I was so embarrassed that I rolled away from it, um, that I stood on top of the mountain and shot off a magazine and a half before I got back down. And, uh, so just the whole "don't show fear," I figured I can't change what happened right now. Uh, if I raise my pulse, I'm gonna bleed faster. And, um, you know, thanks to my platoon sergeant, Sergeant Hambright, and Doc Bates, and then Doc Voice,

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  uh, I was able to maintain most of my blood.

• 1:49:12Jocko Willink?

  They must have slapped those things on you quick, tourniquets.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  Oh, within twenty seconds or thirty seconds, I think.

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  And was the aircraft airborne somewhere? And got redirected to you? How'd you guys get a helicopter there so fast?

• 1:49:25Speaker 01

  I don't know. We usually only went out when it was, when there was helicopters on station. Because the threat was so, so real.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  Not that we need to talk about this and you guys edit it out, but at nighttime, the Taliban had free rein to do what they wanted. We were told because of politics or whatever, somebody said we couldn't go out at nighttime. So we had the best nighttime capabilities, but we couldn't go out. So on the raid camera, 30 feet in the air, we would watch them on the screen and watch them put bombs in at nighttime. And we couldn't shoot them, couldn't shoot mortars at them, and couldn't get them. So it kind of sucked because you'd watch them put the bombs in, then the next day you're supposed to go out and try to find them. And that's why in 2012-

• 1:50:06Jocko Willink?

  So they wouldn't let you shoot them?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Uh, they wouldn't let us go out and get them. They're like, "No, I can't go out at nighttime." And we're like, "But we can see them." I mean, I don't mind if you guys talk about it. You know, it doesn't bother me.

• 1:50:16Jocko Willink?

  It's a reality.

• 1:50:17Speaker 01

  You know, I don't like, you don't get political, so you don't have to on this with me, but just watching them put bombs in, knowing I had to go out and try to find them. And then the guy that I found, or we walked back through, you know, seven different firefights in 10 clicks, when they went out to do the surveillance on the site that got blown up at, I blown up at, there was 13 in a row, right there. And for some reason, the mincer were, Brandon went up and down, not once but twice, and nothing alarmed him. So there was six daisy chained together called squad killer, so you had to be the front guy to hit the first one, and then everybody behind him would get just taken out. So in a way, it was probably better that I got hit that day than have somebody walk past and hit it, and then everybody behind me would be taken out too. Yeah, so just, just the politics of war, I guess, kind of sucked because I would watch them put bombs in, I couldn't

• 1:51:02Speaker 01

  shoot them. The kaiwas would come out stationed, the guy shooting at us 800 yards away would drop their weapons and walk away. And all of a sudden, they were no longer combatant, until the kaiwas were out of fuel. And we weren't going to run, you know, 1,000 meters this way, because if we did, then the guys would just take, leave their AKs and take off. So, you know, the red tape. But when I got blown up, I did radio my LT and tell them, "Yeah, I got hit. I don't know how bad it is." And I told my medic, "Get away from me," and he kept fighting me off and telling me to let me do my job. Then the doctors worked on me for 14 hours, I was told, nine doctors and seven nurses. And two nurses for nine hours pumped air and out of my lungs to keep me alive, like took turns pumping air. I was so low on blood, they did over 30 transfusions.

• 1:51:44Speaker 01

  And they didn't have enough in stock, so they were like on the big speaker in Kandahar saying, "A positive blood and universal, we need it now." And they were right from, I had a lot of tests I had to do for like, you know, possible HIV or things like that because it was just like-

• 1:51:57Jocko Willink?

  They were just taking and putting it right in.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  Yep, cool, alright, thanks for your blood, we're gonna put it right in them.

• 1:52:02Speaker 01

  They knocked me out medically, you know, made me unconscious, and they kept me like that for four days, so.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  I just realized, you know, I always say, "God bless the machine gunners," but how about a little, "God bless the doctors and nurses for sure."

• 1:52:15Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely, and the medics, I mean-

• 1:52:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the medics.

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  Every time I go and I speak, I, uh, my one slide's about perspective and I tell them, you know, about the guys that have not made it back home, and I'm thankful to still be around and, and living, and I'm gonna keep living, you know, for them, so that, you know, their sacrifice wasn't in vain, because what happened to me is nowhere near what happened to my buddy Francis Gene Phelps the 4th, or Frankie, great friend of mine, he died, you know, left behind a wife and a four-year-old at the time. So, I'm thankful for the medical advancements. In Vietnam, a lot of guys didn't come back like me, and I get, sometimes people are like, "Well, we just didn't see people like you during the Vietnam War," it's just, it's so sad this happened, and I say, "Well, that's because the guys, they didn't come back." You know, so, so yeah, I mean, then the doctors knew how to tie things in, and my calf muscles are on the end of my left leg now, I guess, for padding or something.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Just nuts, you know, but, um, that was on the 10th, and then I still had my left hand when they, they got done working on me. My wrist was blown out pretty bad by my finger, um, my index, my middle, my thumb. And then two days later, in Bagram, they cut it off. My brother-in-law flew in from his outpost to Kandahar with me and escorted me, because, did you guys have to fill blue books out before you deployed? We call it the blue book, it's like, "If I die, bury me with this."

• 1:53:28Jocko Willink?

  It's not a blue book, but we do, we do do that.

• 1:53:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I, I don't, it was, yeah, like a little blue pamphlet, they call it the blue book in the army, but it's like, "If I die, you know, I want my wedding ring, I want a picture of my wife and I and my kid," or, you know, "I want this music to play." Basically playing your funeral is kinda morbid, but I guess it's, it's alright. But he was a guy who was supposed to escort my body back home, so he came to where I was at, and then- They shipped me to Bogrom on April 12th and April 12th they took a look at my hand like it's not gonna make it. It's just necrotizing and you know limb length is a huge thing so they cut it off. And then so they didn't tell him they're doing it. So I rolled into surgery and I came back and my hand was gone. But I didn't know because I was still you know medicated.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  And then two days later they went for the very first time on April 14th. And I woke up in the room, my brother-in-law, he was wanting to tell me but what I don't know if I put it in the book. I don't think I did. April 14th actually my birthday. So my 25th birthday I found out is a quadruple amputee. And it's funny because at my first deployment when I didn't know about amputations and things and Josh was just a friend of mine, not my brother-in-law. I was like, look, I'm very athletic. I play a lot of sports. If I if I lose a leg or something, just let me bleed out. Like, I mean, I was that naive at 19 years old. Like, if I lose a hand, just I don't I don't need to live, you know, because I didn't know any different. Where now I have I wake up no arms and legs. And I'm like, oh, okay. Well, at least I made it, I guess.

• 1:54:51Jocko Willink?

  Meanwhile, back on the home front, going to the book, Kelsey received a call at 11:53 a.m. her time while standing in her parents' kitchen in Dallas, Texas. She was making a tuna fish sandwich. And and then it's the commander on the phone. And she describes, you know, he tells her straightforward, you know, the severe injury. And this is what she wrote in her journal. I could not wrap my head around the pain my husband must be feeling. I was all alone in the house and my actions upset my daughter to the point where she was screaming. I could do nothing to soothe her. I couldn't pick her up. I couldn't look at her. My body felt like it was being torn in two. I wanted so badly to be able to talk

• 1:55:34Jocko Willink?

  to Travis and let him know I love him and that I thanked God that he was still alive.

• 1:55:44Jocko Willink?

  Then it continues on. Kelsey called my dad in Michigan, but when she tried to tell him what happened, little would come out. My dad knew something was wrong and kept repeating, is he alive? Is he alive? Is he alive?

• 1:56:00Jocko Willink?

  And then your dad said this, until you go through something like that yourself, it's hard to describe the feeling. There's no eating anymore. You don't leave the house. There's a lot of pacing around. You just wait.

• 1:56:11Jocko Willink?

  Whenever the phone rang, we jumped. You look at the phone and you don't know if you want to answer it or not.

• 1:56:25Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  It wasn't, obviously, it wasn't just you that got hit. Two, you know, your, your family back home gets hit with the shock of all this and all, also in your squad. Theriot?

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, Theriot.

• 1:56:42Jocko Willink?

  Which is the coolest name ever, because it spells the riot. And I've, I've mentioned him earlier. But yeah, he got wounded.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  He was, he was pretty bad. I mean, he was able to get up and walk a couple of days after. He was, he was, he was sore for quite a bit.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  And then, and then Fessy got hit as well.

• 1:56:58Speaker 01

  He did. And luckily he had his sunglasses on, because he, his face was just blasted. But he still has his vision. He's doing great. Just got engaged. So. I mean, that, yeah, it's just a bad day. You know, my dad, when he says he, you don't eat and do that stuff, he actually was in the hospital with me. He got diverticulitis real bad. And he almost died. He was so dehydrated, they had to go in and like, give him surgery and like, get, he had to like, for six months, he'd probably be mad if I told everybody, but he had a colostomy bag because he got so dehydrated. Because he cared, you know, it was just so, so worrisome for him. You know, and then when I woke up, I was kind of a dick. I didn't want to, like, my brother-in-law was like, you gotta call, you know, Kelsey, you gotta call your mom and dad. And I'm like, I'm not talking to anybody. Because you're angry, you're upset, you're questioning.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  Does God hate me? Am I a bad person? What did I do wrong in life to get this? I mean, I pay my taxes, you know, I have a family. Why would this happen to me? And then a little bit goes to like Forrest Gump where it's like Lieutenant Dan, like, no, what? What the hell, you know, why didn't I live through this? Um, you know, is this some kind of sick punishment that for something I did wrong? And, uh, I mean, you come to a realization like, hey, you know what? Just sometimes bad things happen to good people. It is what it is. You can't change it. You might as well keep pushing forward and it's nothing I did wrong in life. It's just what was slated. So, you know, that's what happened.

• 1:58:11Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I thought it was interesting, um, uh, that one of the guys on the medevac bird like wrote a, wrote a, a Facebook to Kelsey and was explaining, you know, what it was like and, and, uh, yeah, I mean, here, here's what he wrote. My name is First Sergeant Wade. The other medic, the other flight medic with staff Sergeant Hockersmith. You belong to a family of warriors. Other wounded soldiers in the aircraft were injured and screaming, but your husband was more worried about, more worried about them than himself.

• 1:58:51Jocko Willink?

  He described, then he describes like how you were doing the thing and tell him to take his helmet off and, and, uh, you know, here coming back to the book, his face was dirty and there was dust in his eyes, but he never shed a tear. I replay in my mind a moment when he looked at other wounded soldier, at another wounded soldier and winked to reassure him that it would be okay.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  My crew is still on duty in his unit's area now. We go back to Kandahar on Monday, but we won't go back the same way. I'm an E8, but this E6 is the example for myself and others to emulate.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  And I actually, I had to get my, I was strapped down, so I had to get my arm out. Cause when I was yelling at him, I was like, hey, take your helmet off. I said, take your helmet off. And then finally I got my arm out.

• 1:59:36Jocko Willink?

  Dude, how the hell were you conscious, man? That's freaking crazy.

• 1:59:40Speaker 01

  Good genes, I guess. Uh, you know, but I pulled my arm out and I, I said, take your, you know, helmet off, F word helmet off. And I put my hand over my head to motion like, you know, as my arms drooping down or whatever. But I just like, take your helmet off. And then he did. And I was like, give my guys water, it'll be fine. And then later I did apologize for yelling at him. I was like, I, hey, sorry I yelled and it's all right. You know, but, you know, at that time, I guess it maybe was easier for me to like, think about. Everything else going on except for myself.

• 2:00:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  You know, and I just, I just figured it is what it is, whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. And it doesn't do me any justice to scream out or yell or, or be afraid. I mean, hey, I can't change what's going on right now. So just do the best I can to, you know, help the situation.

• 2:00:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Ah, man. And, and Josh shows up, like, you know, you just talked about this and then Josh just saying, "Hey, I'm gonna tell it to you straight."

• 2:00:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:30Jocko Willink?

  Cause you asked, you said to Josh, "Hey, am I paralyzed?" And I'm going to the book here. "No, man." Josh said, "You're not paralyzed. You don't need to lie to me," I whispered. "I can take it. I'm gonna tell you straight." Josh knew I'd want to know the truth. "You're not paralyzed, but both your arms and legs are gone."

• 2:00:50Jocko Willink?

  The date was April 14th, 2012. Still the same day as when I'd heard the news. I was a quadruple amputee. It was my 25th birthday.

• 2:01:06Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 2:01:08Jocko Willink?

  You talk about the pain, and I think this is something that people don't get, myself included. Um, uh, "The pain was so bad. Part of the pain was the thought of what I'd become. I could hardly picture the new me. Yet the pain was more than emotional. It was a physical pain. It coursed through my body. I felt like I was on fire. I tried to focus on my breathing and take stock of why my pain was so bad. Even with all the medications flowing through me, it still felt like I was in a red hot vice. I could hardly take it. I knew Josh would never lie to me, but my arms and legs still felt like they were attached. My hands felt like they were burning, like someone was clamping them inside of an industrial furnace,

• 2:01:49Jocko Willink?

  but my hands weren't there. The flames were eating away my ligaments, my nerves, my skin. My legs, my phantom legs were clamped in that same fire. Bolts of agony surged from limbs that weren't the regist- that weren't there and registered to a brain that still was. The pain came and went, came and went, came and went."

• 2:02:12Jocko Willink?

  Josh started in his seat and leaned, or started in his seat and leaned closer. Travis, you needed me to get the nurse? I didn't say anything. I was itchy and sweating bad. He pressed a buzzer, then, then went out and got a cool cloth and laid it on my forehead. The nurse came in and upped my morphine. Just before I went under again, everything that I'd always drilled into myself rushed through my mind. Never show fear. Never let your guys see you in pain. Don't cry out. Even when I'd been lying on the ground, right after the blast, I'd felt pain then, but I hadn't showed it. When that IV was shoved through my chest, that was, chest, that was painful, but I wasn't gonna complain then. You don't let people down. You just don't.

• 2:02:57Jocko Willink?

  But this time, the pain was so bad, it was still so bad, even with more painkillers in me now. So bad, so bad, so bad. This time, I wanted to do the unthinkable.

• 2:03:12Jocko Willink?

  Two words rose and began to vocalize within my throat. "Josh," I said. "Yeah, what do you need, buddy?" I swallowed and whispered two words.

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  "I quit."

• 2:03:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, not good. I, uh... I don't know what, I mean, it was just a lot of pain, I guess. I don't know why.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  You know, you sit there and you question like, am I gonna be a burden on my family?

• 2:03:46Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 2:03:46Speaker 01

  Why, how, you know, my wife, should she stay with me? I mean, what do I have left to offer? Um, my daughter, am I gonna be a monster when I get to see her finally? And then it's like, why did I live through this? Why? You know, why did I make it? Not that I'm, I guess angry I lived her at the time of, you know, when that was happening. I wasn't so much angry, it's just more of a question like, why? What's, what's the purpose? Why not just let me go out, my wife gets, you know, four hundred thousand from the government? And then she can go remarried and have somebody that's able-bodied and, and live a happy life. But, you know, a lot of questions are, you know, when you're sitting in the hotel room, I mean, the hospital bed, you know, in the hospital room, and you just gotta stare at the ceiling the whole time. You just never know what, what to think. In the military, it's easy. Everything is laid out for you. This is our mission today, this is our plan, what we're gonna do, is how we're gonna get it done. There, it's just all unknown.

• 2:04:32Jocko Willink?

  And that pain like from missing limbs, it sounds freaking horrible.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like a spike getting drove through my heel, uh fingernails getting like just ripped off and then seared and it was just, it was bad.

• 2:04:45Jocko Willink?

  What causes that?

• 2:04:47Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, a lot of it is phantom limb pain. So your nerves try to find where your hands and your feet are. And if they can't find it, they try to redirect and keep trying to find it. So it's just one excruciating, you know, zap to another. And then they are, and you're probably gonna talk, they had like experimental, um, things they tried on me because it was so bad. And after the second one, they tried, um, I was like, oh, I feel a little better. And then the, the doctor like was all excited. And I was like, oh, no, the pain's back. And I went, you know, got all yelling out in pain and stuff. And he just, he actually cried. He felt so bad because it was to the point where they gotta find some cure or I'm gonna be so, um,

• 2:05:29Jocko Willink?

  Just in agony.

• 2:05:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, agony, or I'll, I'll be so used to the medication, um, that the doses are gonna get to the point where I'm just gonna OD on them. You know, because I'm gonna be so, so accustomed. I can't think of the word right now. It's killing me. Uh, Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My tolerance would be so high that I'm just gonna end up ODing.

• 2:05:52Jocko Willink?

  Damn.

• 2:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Of course, I was kind of, you know, you wonder where you get your sense of humor. You're telling your dad what happened and you're like, I stepped on a mine, went flying through the air. I did a 180. It was crazy. Well, Travis, my dad said, the important question is, did you look good doing it?

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I, I, I mean, I think I did. Yeah.

• 2:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Um, and meanwhile, Kelsey, she, she, you know, you've been voicing some of these concerns like about, hey, can I even be a good dad now? Can I, am I gonna be a burden? You're kind of telling Josh some of those things. And she told, or he told Kelsey, and here we go back to the book. My brother told me that Travis is nervous to see me because he doesn't know how I will react or if I will continue to love him as my husband. These worries seem so trivial to me because I will love him through sickness and health until death do us part.

• 2:06:48Jocko Willink?

  I did not use those words lightly when we got married. I will be by his side every day for the rest of our lives, whether he likes it or not.

• 2:06:56Jocko Willink?

  I know his natural reaction will be to push me away because of embarrassment or feelings of letting me down. But I just wish I could constantly reassure him that my love for him is unwavering.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, when I saw her, I told her she should go. I said, you know, hey, you should take what we have. The house is yours. The cars are yours. Sell mine. You know, whatever, and do what you need to do, and I'll financially fund whenever I can. You know, and she was like, that's not how this works.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  I want that handicap parking, you know, what she said, so it's like.

• 2:07:30Jocko Willink?

  Oh, man, you are.

• 2:07:34Jocko Willink?

  There's like a level of luck involved when you get married. I don't care who you are.

• 2:07:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:39Jocko Willink?

  Like, you could easily marry like Satan. You know, and I know, I know you, I know plenty of guys that have made some really bad, I can't even call them bad decisions, because just like. Okay, I understand if you have this great courting thing and all that and you're whatever, that you can make a good decision and that's great. But like a lot of guys in the military, you're young and you're like, you know what, we're getting married. And there's just like a flip of the coin. And you, you got a saint.

• 2:08:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I literally did flip it. I'm like seventeen days in person. You know what would be great? We just went to Mexico and then saw we were gonna get married, and then we just got married.

• 2:08:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:08:10Speaker 01

  Let's do that. That'd be a great story for everybody, whether it works or not, you know?

• 2:08:15Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, man, you scored for sure.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  And she got lucky to have me too.

• 2:08:22Jocko Willink?

  Well, I didn't really pick that up, but um, okay, we'll go with it.

• 2:08:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, moving on.

• 2:08:27Jocko Willink?

  Hey, how was it when you saw Chloe for the first time? So you didn't get back to Walter Reed?

• 2:08:31Speaker 01

  I did, uh, April seventeenth, I got back and um. The first time I got to see Kelsey wasn't that Hallmark moment, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, I love you so much. It was actually. I was getting rushed in, my right, uh, one of my right leg ripped open. And then like, Mrs. Mills, you're in charge of the medical history now. You have to sign this piece of paper. Um, he has to get two inches of coffee, his right leg. We need your consent, you know, consent. And she's like, what? And she almost passes out and they're like, Mrs. Mills. I'm like, Kelsey, just sign the paper. And I'm yelling, just sign the paper. It's okay. And she signs it. And that's the first time I got to see her. Just real quick. Yep. Go ahead and hack them up. And they went and took my leg two inches off on the right and resealed it. And next day is when I tell her like, you know, this isn't probably anything that you signed up for. You, you can go and you know, you're no, it's no big deal. I'm not worried about it. And she's like, nope.

• 2:09:15Speaker 01

  Not how this works. We'll get through this together. And then they, you know, they induced me into this coma later on. Cause the pain was so bad and I was getting my tolerance level built up for the pain meds. And, uh, she sat on my bed like 20 hours a day and knowing I wasn't going to wake up for five days. Like, we're gonna put them out for five days.

• 2:09:30Jocko Willink?

  So, yeah, so this was crazy. Uh, reading about in the book, you, you're in such horrible, horrible pain. Like undescribable pain. Is this basically an experimental thing, procedure that they did on you?

• 2:09:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm the, uh, second in the nation to ever have the ketamine coma and 30th in the world. And a lot of case studies on me.

• 2:09:49Jocko Willink?

  The ketamine coma is 600 milli- milligrams of ketamine per hour.

• 2:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it goes.

• 2:09:55Jocko Willink?

  Around the clock.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Well, it's based on like weight and things. So I'm sure like everybody's different measurements, but, uh, they, when they did it, you go in and then it just circulates through it. It's supposed to reset your brain to think where your nerves end and where they end. And, you know, you come out and it's just you hallucinate like crazy. Anything on TV is what was real life to me.

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, the, I'll, I'll hit some highlights from your hallucination. Cause when you get, when you get done out of the coma, you're in a coma for five days, which is just black, nothing, right? There's no, nothing, nothing there. Then you go into hallucinations. You got, um, chasing kids that stole things from Walmart. You got Genghis Khan, that you're out with Genghis Khan. You're, a SWAT team is coming to get you. You got you and your cousins are riding skateboards in a TV reality show. You got yourself playing hockey in the NHL. Um, I was particularly concerned about a 50-year-old go-go dancer that crawled on a leash down the hallway of Walter Reed. That one made me a little bit nervous.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  Uh, it was a service dog, apparently.

• 2:10:57Jocko Willink?

  Kramer from Seinfeld stops by. So, so you go through these massive hallucinations. That, that's freaking weird.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it got to the point where. I'd get on my tangents and they said for the first like seven days, you know, it's gonna be bad then after that it'll start to fade out and at 10 days you should be able to tell when you're having one or not. But I remember my father-in-law come in one morning and the Caps game was on the night before and I was watching it. I was like, I scored nine goals with Ovechkin. I had a triple hat trick. He's like, oh, that's, that's great. And then I thought that way I got blown up and I woke up the very first day, I thought that this guy from my hometown made a derogatory comment towards my mom, my wife, my daughter and my buddies and I jumped in the car and chased him and went off the road and I smacked a tree and I killed my two best friends. And like I made my mom and my wife.

• 2:11:40Jocko Willink?

  And you full on believed those 100%.

• 2:11:43Speaker 01

  I told my brother-in-law the story, just as intently or intense as I told my wife. And he listens like, oh yeah. And everybody was just going with it. Instead of trying to like argue with me, they're like, we're just gonna go with this. And I called my buddies a message and I'm like, I'm so, I, I hope you're not dead. And then I finally came out of hallucination and I realized what happened and my brother-in-law walked back in. I was like, hey, man, thanks, you dick. He goes, well, I didn't want to tell you any different. And I was like, yeah, no, I understand.

• 2:12:06Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's like, don't text when you're drunk or whatever. Don't, don't, don't call people and leave messages when you're on seven day hallucinatory trips.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  And I only left two messages, but they were for my best friend. So it was cool.

• 2:12:16Jocko Willink?

  And both of them was, I'm sorry I killed you?

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  Hey, man, I hope you're not dead. I think I killed you. And, uh, and then I got to the point where I could tell what was going on. So I like, I started to have another one. Um, and then I was like, oh, that's hallucination. And then finally I got to the point where I was playing with people. Like Josh was in my room and I was like, Josh, he goes, what? He goes, I see dead people. I said, what? You're serious? And he's like, no, I'm just kidding. He's like, okay. And then I started looking at the ceiling. I was like, oh, they're all around me. He's like, where, where? I'm like, oh my gosh, Josh, everywhere. And I like grabbed him and I was like,

• 2:12:47Speaker 01

  so I started messing people once I got the hang of it.

• 2:12:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh, that's awesome. Uh, and that kind of like did it though, right? Like?

• 2:12:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. So I did about five more months of pain pills. Um, and then finally like in October, I was home for Thanksgiving in North Carolina at my house at Fort Bragg. And I was just like, you know what? Kelsey came in, I was like, I don't want them anymore. I'm done. She's like, you can't just quit these. And I said, no, really, I'm done. So it was like five days of pain and then. Now, no medication, nothing, I'm good to go. So, the academy coma, my documentary, you know, it says, "I wouldn't do it again," but that was five months after the fact. So, I was still like doing pain pills and stuff. Or four months after the fact, I guess, because it was in September. Um, but looking back, like, that was the best, the best thing for me, to get me past the, you know, the pain part and then onto my recovery.

• 2:13:30Jocko Willink?

  Are you the second person that ever had that done?

• 2:13:32Speaker 01

  I guess, in the nation.

• 2:13:33Jocko Willink?

  That's crazy.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  I guess, yeah.

• 2:13:35Jocko Willink?

  Um, I thought this was a great, talking about your kind of transition mentally. Going back to the book, "Back in normal days, I loved the challenge. The quest to succeed in the army had always been a challenge for me. My situation now is a quadruple amputee held out the same sort of dare to succeed. Sure, if I could have changed things, I wouldn't have been in this situation, but I couldn't change things. Being a quadruple amputee was my new reality. I, I could quit for good. I could shut myself off from the world. I could will myself to die. Or I could fight forward and keep on living." Legit.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, it came down to a choice at the end of the day. Um, I was still here, my wife's gonna stay by my side, my daughter, who I think's gonna think I'm a monster, still laughs and snuggles up with me and, you know, I mean, when she first saw me, I thought she was gonna be really afraid, but then, short arms, short legs, fuzzy chest, I look like a teddy bear. She's like, "Oh, another toy," you know? But-

• 2:14:29Jocko Willink?

  This one can talk.

• 2:14:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:30Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  And-

• 2:14:31Jocko Willink?

  Interactive.

• 2:14:32Speaker 01

  I've never been stern with my mom. I did break my mom's nose one time, whole different story.

• 2:14:37Jocko Willink?

  Karate?

• 2:14:38Speaker 01

  Uh, no, my dad and me were slapboxing in the kitchen, which meant I was seventeen, my dad was trying to mess with me, but if I slapped back, he'd be like, "You gonna take me?" And I'm like, "No, bro, that we were just playing." But he slapped at me, my mom was behind me, and I caught her in the back of my head. Scariest day of my life. Um, you don't make her mad. And, but anyway, so, I was only stern one time, my mom, I woke up, you know, and I was supposed to get all the rest I could. And I said, "Where's Chloe at?" And she's like, "Oh, they already came to visit, but you were sleeping." And I was like, "Don't ever let me sleep through that again." That's the whole reason that I'm able to still keep functioning, is because of my daughter and, you know, uh, being there and my wife. But, uh, you know, the mental part was the worst.

• 2:15:11Jocko Willink?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:15:12Speaker 01

  About four o'clock to six o'clock at night, I couldn't have the lights on in my, in my apartment. Something to do, I thought it was like the operating table, I'd start sweating real bad. I just, I mean, now I'm fine, but for the first, like, you know, five, five, six months, I was just like, "No lights at this time, it's quiet hour." And things like that.

• 2:15:28Jocko Willink?

  And man, I started watching like I watched a, you know, video of you as you were training, as you were now relearning everything. And I, I never really understood when people say, oh, you gotta re, you know, gotta relearn to walk and you gotta relearn. And I didn't really make sense of it, but it's really clear to see when you watch your progression, what that looked like, like how you were clearly relearning how to walk. Like I never understood that, but when you watch the videos and the, the progression that you made, you can see that that's what it's, it looks like when you first stood up, I'm like, oh yeah, it looks like he's learning how to walk. And sure enough, you got better and better and it's pretty amazing.

• 2:16:02Speaker 01

  And, and two things you're gonna find out when I, when I was going through my recovery. The first thing, I learned how to walk with my daughter, which is kinda cool. They got me little short legs and I was stumbling around and she was stumbling around, we're holding hands. And the next thing you found out, my love for Philly cheesesteaks. Because I do less workouts and stuff like that at the gym, you know, as you go, but I went from 250 to 140 and I was real skinny and then all of a sudden I start getting fatter and fatter and fatter because of Lyrica and the medication. And I was just like, oh, I love Philly cheesesteaks. So I'm trying to work on that now. But my progression is I got better, I got fatter too.

• 2:16:34Jocko Willink?

  And you got a visit from a guy named Todd Nicely. And that must've helped out a lot.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Uh, my competitive edge did. He walked in on his fake legs and two fake arms and he, first thing out of his mouth was, hey man, welcome to the club. I was like, I wanna be in your club. He said, kinda late now, don't you think? And I looked at myself and I was like, you got me there. And, uh, as he walked over, I said, you want a ginger ale? And he heard me wrong and he went over to the counter, uh, or the sink and underneath the sink was, was a 12 pack of ginger ale. I got hooked on it like crack at the hospital. I got off it now, but either way. He bends down on one knee, bends down on his other knee, reaches on with his fake hand, gets it out, pops the top of his other arm and walks over and hands it. He goes, here you go. I'm like, oh no, I was asking if you wanted one, but before I got the full sentence out. I said, how'd you do that? He's like, hey man, I'm Todd and I'm the second ever. Welcome to the club, you're the fourth.

• 2:17:24Speaker 01

  Uh, quadruple apetite to make it back home. You're gonna be fine. I live in Missouri with my wife. I drive, I have a boat, I do whatever I want, I walk. It just takes time.

• 2:17:34Speaker 01

  And he's like, I'll even work out with you tomorrow. You know, this is like, I'm still thinking I'm in hallucination mode. This is, this is like maybe eight, nine days after my ketamine coma. And he's like, I'll work out with you tomorrow. So the doctors come in and I'm like, hey, I gotta work out today. And they're like, you can't work out. You know, and I was like, no, no, seriously, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work out with Todd nicely. He said I can work out at one o'clock. And they're like, well, you're not ready. And I had to let him know, I was like, I don't know what you don't get, buddy. I'm working out today. And he said, I'll think about it. So I called him every half hour, four hours straight to find out if I could. And I went and met Todd and Todd did a workout and I laid on my stomach with a pelvis pad under my stomach or whatever. So that stretched my pelvis muscle back out and heating pad my back and I fell asleep 20 minutes. Best workout I've ever done. But I started my recovery that day.

• 2:18:18Speaker 01

  And as far as the physical was easy, you know, I liked the physical challenge. The mental was the hardest part for me. I mean, bar none, it was, it was the worst, you know? I couldn't look at myself in the mirror for a while there because I didn't like what I saw. You know, seeing my, my arms gone, the scars, just overall mess that I was. And thinking that was gonna be a burden and all that. So it just, that's just how it went.

• 2:18:41Jocko Willink?

  So the more capable you got, the more comfortable you got in your new skin?

• 2:18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I found out that they let you go for one hour and then a physical therapy and then one hour of occupational therapy. And then they let me do another one and another one turned into four hours of each. So eight hours, I was putting eight hours a day at the gym in my recovery. Well, at the gym and occupational therapy, learn how to use my hands, how to wash myself again, how to dress myself again. Learn how to drive, learned how to do all that stuff. But it took 19 months of, at Walter Reed. 13 months in paperwork was after that to get out, but government.

• 2:19:20Jocko Willink?

  And you, you, um,

• 2:19:25Jocko Willink?

  you eventually went and met your guys when they came home though.

• 2:19:29Speaker 01

  I did.

• 2:19:29Jocko Willink?

  Freaking awesome.

• 2:19:30Speaker 01

  I did. I set some goals. Um, when I was in the hospital on my birthday, I called my wife and my mom and dad. And I was basically really short. Hey, guys, what's up? Fine. Love you. Bye. That's all I wanted to say. I didn't want to talk and have a conversation and go over what happened to me. Um, I kept it very short, but I told my brother-in-law, I said, I have to call my guys in my unit. You need to find the number to my strong point and let me talk to them. So there's a picture going around where I had a, a baseball cap, or no, I was out on patrol and I had sleeves rolled up and, uh, helmet off, sunglasses. I mean, everything out of standard as they, as, you know, they have standards or whatever. And I got ahold of my sergeant major. I said, Sergeant Major, I'm so sorry. I understand you gotta take my rank. Uh, I shouldn't have been out of uniform. I do apologize. And now the picture's going public. And he's like,

• 2:20:11Speaker 01

  you're crazy, dude. Like, just get better. You're fine. And then I got ahold of my, my guys and I told them, guys, I'm fine. I'll be okay. And I'll be there when you get back from Afghanistan. I'll be there at the, you know, the ramp to give you guys a hug on my tall legs. And it took me a while. I got my tall legs that morning when they got back. I had to work out three hours. And then the tall legs don't bend, but like not the ones I'm wearing now, but they're, they make me at least six foot tall. Well, you can't take those legs home unless you can stand up when you fall down. So the whole day, the therapist walks up and says, trust fall. They knock you down. You're like, what the hell? Like, that's not a trust fall. You're supposed to catch me. I'm supposed to close my eyes and trust you're gonna catch me. And they're like, that's the catch. You gotta get yourself back up.

• 2:20:48Speaker 01

  Therapists are great. No, I had, I had two of the best therapists, uh, that, that you could ask for. No, I'm Carrie and Joe. And they got me, you know, back to where I was at. But I did meet my guys. And the first, one of the first people I got to hug was Doc Bateson, you know, and say, hey, man, thanks for all you did.

• 2:21:02Jocko Willink?

  And then you end up doing a 5K?

• 2:21:05Jocko Willink?

  5K run?

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  So, well, I mean,

• 2:21:07Jocko Willink?

  That was like another goal?

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So Todd Neisser came in. When he met me, he had four firefighters also for telling the towers 5K they do in New York City. And they also, they partner with Gary Sneeze and they build houses and things like that for guys that have been through traumatic injuries. And they were like, hey, we're gonna have a 5K in September. We're gonna, you know, we'll push you. I'm like, I'll walk it. And they're like, well, yeah, but like, we'll push you. It's no big deal. And I was like, no, you don't understand. Like, I'm just gonna walk it. And like, well, you don't have legs yet, but if you do walk it, that's cool. So I went out to New York City after my daughter's birthday, uh, the day after and. Walked the 5K. I came out of the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel thinking, okay, I'm gonna sit down now. Like, I'm tired, my back hurts, I got a mile, you know, 1.2 miles or something to go. My right leg, I had completely rubbed raw, and I was bleeding inside my socket, and I was like,

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  it's good, I've met a goal, I've walked over to, you know, two miles now. And I came out of the tunnel, there was 343 firefighters with banners around their neck for 9/11. I thought, geez, okay, well, if those guys and gals can go up down those flight stairs and then ultimately die, you know, trying to save lives, I can finish this. So I did. I was sore, it was bad, but I did finish it.

• 2:22:11Jocko Willink?

  And then eventually, like you said, you're driving now, you went out and did like mountain biking and skiing and all this other kind of, just getting after it, basically, for better, for lack of a better term. And then you retire, you retire from the Army. And what's your next move? Your next move is you figure out you're gonna get a house and you're gonna move to...

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  I had to move to Maine. My wife is from Maine originally. The heat doesn't do well with amputees, because your blood circulates faster, it comes back warmer. When you release heat from your body, it's had hands and feet, so I'm missing, you know, four of the five. And then my legs are capped off, so if I wear pants or if I wear shorts, it's the same. There's no air hitting a third of my body. And yeah, so we decided we're gonna move to Maine. We did start a nonprofit to help with care packages at first, and then we grew it to the retreat center that we have here in Maine. It really through my work at Walter Reed. When I was at Walter Reed, I was such an upbeat person. I was the same person as before the blast. I was still going in and having Kesha Fridays, because it made people annoyed, but other people loved it.

• 2:23:18Jocko Willink?

  You were having what Fridays?

• 2:23:20Speaker 01

  Kesha Fridays. I'd go put my, take my phone, I'd turn on Kesha and Pandora, and we'd just rock out.

• 2:23:26Jocko Willink?

  I unfortunately saw videos of you like dancing, which cannot be unseen, apparently.

• 2:23:32Speaker 01

  Burn into your retina, you're welcome. But, you know, they started to ask me if I'd meet people upstairs, and it started out, hey, you know, Travis, we have a guy upstairs, I can't tell you his name or his room number, but if you could talk to him, really help. He's not in 41, and he's not in 43. But if you could find him, you know. And I'm not a Marine, so, you know, obviously I'm smart enough to find that it was number 42. I don't eat crayons. But anyway, so I would go up and talk to him, and then that turned into like, hey, we have PFC Johnson, he's missing two legs, his mom, his mother-in-law, and his two kids are here. Can you go see him? I told him you'd be up around this time. And that's how the book got started, my documentary got started, and then the foundation was just because all the nonprofits at Walter Reed doing great things, Kelsey and I wanted to give back some way, shape, or form, and this is how we've decided, you know, that

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  we can give back the best.

• 2:24:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so, um, what, tell us more about the foundation then?

• 2:24:24Speaker 01

  Uh, so the Travis Mills Foundation was started really just for care packages overseas, and then I went out to Colorado, learned how to go downhill mountain biking and doing things, and then I realized that Walter Reed does a great job of taking the service member out there. The only thing that the government doesn't lack, but because of the funds have to go to the soldiers, they don't get to bring all the families. Like, my wife got to go because I needed assistance and things, but a lot of the guys that could take care of themselves couldn't bring their loved ones, and that's fine, that's okay. But we thought we could do something in that, in that space. My whole reason for getting better was my wife and my daughter, easily. So, we started bringing families out, we did it for one week of a year, and we brought families out and showed them how to do things adaptively, kayaking, canoeing, and things. Then we did another one, and it went so well, we thought, well, we should buy a property.

• 2:25:09Speaker 01

  So, we bought a property, supposed to be a $500,000 project, now it's a $3 million project. Uh, we did our first week of program, or, I mean, first year of programs this year. Uh, we did seven weeks, 56 families, and we bring them up, uh, we host eight families per week, up to 40 people, and we show them how to do things. We have a place on the water for kayaking and canoeing and tubing and boating, and we just, um, do horseback riding and archery and just all these activities. We have ropes course, and we just say, you know what, I understand what you're going through, I understand it can get tough, here's a network of people that are just like you, whether you live in Chicago in the inner city, or you live in the plains of Montana. Reach out, understand that these families are going through the same thing. Um, feel comfortable when you come here, that you can fall out of a kayak and nobody's gonna freak out, they're gonna understand what you're going through, and it's just

• 2:25:54Speaker 01

  as much of, uh... A place for the loved ones, you know, the wives that can talk to other wives or spouses. And the kids can run around and see that, you know what? My dad has one leg missing and one arm, but this dad has two legs missing. And that's pretty cool because they know what we're going through. And after our first year of operations and running, it was such a great success. We're going to do strategic partnerships with other nonprofits that share our mission. And they'll donate what it costs for a week and they'll run their own retreats up here as well. So we're talking with Gold Summer Families as well as PTSD and TBI. Cause right now I focus on limb loss or paralyzation. But this hopefully will run 40, 45 weeks out of the year. It's all donation based and the cool thing is like as the president and the six other board members I do have,

• 2:26:38Speaker 01

  we don't take a dime. We never will. We're auditing ourselves right now. So we can get on the CFC, the Combined Federal Campaign and it's all about giving back. So it's been really rewarding and fulfilling and I'm glad to be out there helping these families cope with their situation and tell them that there's other people out there like you, keep going, never live life on the sidelines. And most importantly, never give up and never quit.

• 2:27:00Jocko Willink?

  If people want to help this organization, what's the best way for them to do that?

• 2:27:04Speaker 01

  Visit the website travis mills.org. It has all the information on the foundation. There's ways to donate online. There's ways to do volunteer options. You know, we had people fly in just to volunteer for the week and help us out. And there's also, you know, ways to do corporate sponsorships. We had Wayfair come in, donate all the furniture. New Balance came in, donated to us and things like that. So we're growing. We believe in our mission. We know we can do this. And there's other things we want to get accomplished out here. We need to build a multipurpose center. We have a pool going in and things like that. But it's all about giving back and the mindset of the service member that we're trying to host and the family.

• 2:27:43Jocko Willink?

  The book, Tough As They Come, that's what we read today. It's a great book. I read small chunks of it. Yeah, you can pick that up. Uh, anywhere where they sell books. And what about the documentary?

• 2:27:58Speaker 01

  So the documentary, uh, it's called Travis's Soldier's Story. It was done in 2014. And it was actually, uh, unveiled at GI Film Festival. And, um, we took first place in 55 short films. Uh, I got to meet Marcus and Melanie Luttrell that night. It was really, really great to meet them. And now Netflix has signed us on for a two-year run. So we got on Netflix in May. So if anyone wants to watch that, it's on Netflix. It's called Travis Soldier's Story. Um, and it just tells the whole story. It just has iPhone footage of everything that Kelsey and I went through.

• 2:28:26Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:28:26Speaker 01

  And the two medics that, the two medics saved my life are actually are reenacting me getting blown up. And the two guys that got hurt are in the documentary as well.

• 2:28:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:33Speaker 01

  And my brother-in-law, so all the people that were there are in the documentary.

• 2:28:36Jocko Willink?

  No, between the book and watching the documentary and you get to see the faces and everything, it's really, uh, it's really cool. It's real powerful. And, um, what about social media? How's your social media presence, Mr. Popular?

• 2:28:50Speaker 01

  It's not yours by any means. Uh, we're about sixty, sixty thousand and some strong on our Facebook page. I do little videos. Uh, my daughter learned how to tie her shoes the other day. We taught her in the morning and, you know, by like, we taught her like seven and by nine o'clock, she's tying it by herself, giving an intro, uh, to tying your shoes online, but just SSG Travis Mills is my page. If you want to check it out, share my story, that, that really helps us out.

• 2:29:11Jocko Willink?

  And it's Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. You're on all three. SSG Travis Mills. That's, that's where you can find it.

• 2:29:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:23Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, you, you put the, the last thing in the book, like the last line in the book. He said, "Live in freedom, to go forward, to love your family, to make something of your life, to never, ever give up, to never quit." That's success.

• 2:29:41Jocko Willink?

  And

• 2:29:43Jocko Willink?

  obviously, um, in my opinion, if-

• 2:29:47Jocko Willink?

  If never giving up and never quitting is the definition of success, then I think you're the most successful person I've ever met in my life, brother, for real.

• 2:29:54Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate that. I just, we, we realize the people that depend on you, the people that went into all this and the lives that are lost. I mean, you've had a lot of buddies, I'm sure, that didn't make it back home. My situation is not, not life ending. My situation is just, I got a couple more steps in the morning, put my legs on, put my arm on, take my daughter, tomorrow's actually my daughter's orientation at school. I get to take her. My wife and I just had a baby. And I named, I named our little boy after my two medics. His name's Dax, D-A-X, after Daniel and Alexander, for the medics that saved my life. So thankful to still be here, through all the smoke and the dirt and the dust. It's all settled now and I'm, I'm living life to the fullest and doing the best I can to make sure that people understand life goes on and to never, ever give up and never quit.

• 2:30:40Jocko Willink?

  Anything else? Any closing thoughts?

• 2:30:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I just obviously want to thank, everybody went into this. I mean, from my unit on the ground, I know I was a heavy guy, you know, walking around, weight was 400 pounds. So to get, you know, with all my gear on and all that, to get me out of there was great. This medical staff, doctors, nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists, everybody. Obviously, my family that went into it. I want to say thanks for being there on my side. My beautiful wife and my wonderful children, for, you know, really accepting what happened and moving forward in life. And just, you know, let everybody know, you know, you can't always affect your, your situation you find yourself in, but you always can affect your attitude. And that's, that's where I find the most, I guess, the most realization in my situation. I can't always affect, if I drop something on my hand, you know, I can't pick it up right away, or I have to do something weird and get mad about it. Cause

• 2:31:25Speaker 01

  getting mad doesn't, I'm getting mad doesn't do anything. So I always try to keep my attitude positive and keep pushing forward. But thanks for having me. Also, I want to thank you for having me on here. Both you gentlemen, I didn't look at you very much. I'm sorry. I know, we talked about this earlier, but he said not, you said not to?

• 2:31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, trying not to. It's at your discretion, for sure.

• 2:31:44Speaker 02

  We gotta redo this then, so I can look at you more. You're all good, you're perfect, perfect.

• 2:31:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Hey, man, thanks for coming on. Of course, thank you for your service to this great nation, not only as a soldier and a leader on the battlefield, but for your continued service that you're doing today for veterans and also for the gift that I think you give everybody that hears about you or comes and contacts you with you in any way, and that is

• 2:32:18Jocko Willink?

  just a living example of grit and of determination and of will.

• 2:32:26Jocko Willink?

  And I just think you're the absolute model of what it means

• 2:32:35Jocko Willink?

  and what people can accomplish

• 2:32:39Jocko Willink?

  if we do as you say, and that is to go forward, never give up, and never, ever quit.

• 2:32:47Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for coming on, brother.

• 2:32:49Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:32:52Jocko Willink?

  And after a little administrative break, Travis has left the building.

• 2:33:02Jocko Willink?

  Pretty damn awesome to have him on, man.

• 2:33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:10Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and he and every excuse that a person might have as a human being just got destroyed.

• 2:33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it, he really kinda illustrated how hard it got throughout the time when he was like, when he said, "Oh, I quit in the hospital."

• 2:33:32Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  And it's kinda like, it makes, just kinda when you're around him now, and you see just how he is. It kinda really brings to light how good he is now, you know?

• 2:33:45Jocko Willink?

  And and he couldn't, at that moment in time,

• 2:33:52Jocko Willink?

  And when people get into that darkness, they don't see, they can't, they can't see the future. They can't see that things are gonna get better. They can't see, you know, for him at that point in time, there's no way it was gonna get good.

• 2:34:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:05Jocko Willink?

  You know, so, yeah, that's very true. Very true.

• 2:34:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, another interesting thing is that when you see again where he's like concerned about his men, and even when he said I quit, he was concerned about like his wife. And like that was the significant element.

• 2:34:21Jocko Willink?

  Just a totally selfless person. Awesome.

• 2:34:28Jocko Willink?

  Well,

• 2:34:31Jocko Willink?

  speaking of.

• 2:34:38Speaker 02

  Being awesome?

• 2:34:40Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Echo Charles, you're awesome.

• 2:34:43Speaker 02

  Thanks, bro. We can talk about some awesome, American-made stuff.

• 2:34:47Jocko Willink?

  That's a good idea. I like where you're going with this.

• 2:34:50Speaker 02

  Origin.

• 2:34:52Speaker 02

  originmaine.com. But yeah, Origin, that's the brand. So what is Origin? We're in league with Origin. I like the expression in league with, by the way. I might have told you that before.

• 2:35:04Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's a good way of putting it.

• 2:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. So this is straight up the best American-made apparel in the world.

• 2:35:13Jocko Willink?

  You can, you don't have to say the best American-made apparel. You can say it's the best apparel in the world, and it's American-made.

• 2:35:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:22Speaker 02

  Is that subjective? I guess it's kinda subjective, but if you say it's the best American-made, well, I guess it all technically might be. I don't know. Either way, it's dope. Yeah. And it's all made in America, but here's the thing about made in America. I guess, I don't know, I could be wrong about this part, but technically you could be like, yeah, they, they sewed these, I don't know, pants or whatever, you know, in America. Like, hey, where'd you get the material? Oh, well, you know, we got it from somewhere else, not in America. Which I guess is cool. Technically it was made, it was crafted, but not here. So you figure what, like, let's say you're cotton pants, right? You get the material from.

• 2:36:07Speaker 02

  America. But how do you make the material? The actual cotton, where does cotton come from? You grow it. I used to have a cotton, like trees, like a bunch of them. By the way, I'm Kua, nonetheless. So where do they get, where does Origin get that cotton? America.

• 2:36:26Speaker 02

  What about the seeds to plant the cotton?

• 2:36:28Jocko Willink?

  They're from America, for sure.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  So straight up from the ground, from the earth, from the seeds to the pants that you get. In the event of you getting pants, by the way, there's other stuff. There's gees. And that one's a good one, the gees, if you're into jujitsu. Nonetheless, the pants that I got, the joggers. He was asking me, how do you like those? And, you know, the new joggers, they're kind of like, they have a different shape than the old school sweatpants. So I was like, okay, you know, and I looked into those. I was telling Pete this story where I ordered some, ironically, from overseas. I ordered them from overseas. They looked pretty good, so I ordered them. Didn't come in, by the way. This was about a year and a half ago, still didn't come in, by the way.

• 2:37:15Speaker 02

  But I looked into it, I was like, whatever, but it's probably not for me. It's poetic, you know, it's a sign, one of those deals. Either way, I get Pete's ones, I'm like, all right, cool, I'm gonna try these. I put them on.

• 2:37:27Speaker 02

  Surprisingly legitimate. As far as the look goes, cool, it's me. Pete even said that I'm like, I look good in them, which is a lot, because I just kind of met Pete in person over the past week. Anyway, good stuff.

• 2:37:40Speaker 02

  Just saying, it's good stuff. And again, all made in America, all of it. Some gees on there, some cool rash guards, the George Washington rash guard. That I feel like we're ready for that one to come back, so.

• 2:37:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:53Speaker 02

  So Pete should, yeah.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  Should have that one.

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Nonetheless, OriginMaine.com. And when I say Maine, it's the state Maine, so Origin M A I N E dot com, that's a good one. The best one, really, when it comes down to it. Also, Jocko has some supplements.

• 2:38:13Speaker 02

  Krill oil, which we need.

• 2:38:18Speaker 02

  And joint warfare. So really, this is like a full on like joint. Cause krill oil omega threes for your joints as well. Yeah. And then joint warfare is like, cause there's a bunch of things regardless of what you think. Yeah. Krill oil joints. Boom. Good. It's, there's more to it than that. Just like what like glucosamine, all like basically all the stuff that you have been taking for years.

• 2:38:40Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  You said, you know what? Let me come up with my own Jocko formula.

• 2:38:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, we have it now.

• 2:38:45Speaker 02

  Boom. Have it now. Two products, right? Super krill joint warfare.

• 2:38:49Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 2:38:50Speaker 02

  That's the one. That's the kit. That's the new kit.

• 2:38:54Speaker 02

  As far as kits go. Also.

• 2:38:56Jocko Willink?

  Those are also on originmaine.com by the way.

• 2:38:59Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Originmaine.com. Also on it. So, you know, we've been, we're on a trip right now. In the event of people not knowing that we're on a trip to Maine. I didn't bring the kettle bells.

• 2:39:15Speaker 02

  I thought that that might've been too much. Plus, you know, to check on kettle, they give you 50 pounds, right? In your luggage. My kettle bells, one kettlebell, more than 50 pounds. Nonetheless.

• 2:39:23Jocko Willink?

  Eighty-eight pounds.

• 2:39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. In your case, minus 62, I think.

• 2:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 2:39:29Speaker 02

  The werewolf times two, 124. Boom. Math on point. There was a guy at the camp that we went to that brought the kettle bells, the 70 whatever one, the gorilla one from on it, the cool one. I didn't, I didn't work out with them though. I was gonna, I wanted to, I intended to.

• 2:39:50Speaker 02

  Anyway, those gorilla and werewolf kettle bells that I'm talking about, these are the cool kettle bells. They're from on it. Those are.

• 2:40:01Speaker 02

  All kettle bells are good, really. But if you want that level up of coolness, um, yeah, get those on it.com slash Jocko. Get it. Jump ropes on there, a bunch of cool fitness stuff. If you're lagging in your workout, which I do sometimes. I lag in my workout, not in lag, like physically, but um. Interest wise, you know, you get kind of bored. Not you, you don't get bored, huh?

• 2:40:24Jocko Willink?

  No.

• 2:40:24Speaker 02

  You just like.

• 2:40:25Jocko Willink?

  Well, it doesn't matter.

• 2:40:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:40:26Jocko Willink?

  It doesn't even register bored or not.

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:28Jocko Willink?

  Execution is happening.

• 2:40:29Speaker 02

  It's not what it's about. Yeah. Well, some of us, we get kind of bored and it's not that we're getting bored, so we're not going to do it.

• 2:40:37Speaker 02

  We're looking for something like, oh yeah, let me try this new thing. Some new hotness in regards to workouts.

• 2:40:42Jocko Willink?

  Can you just not say new hotness anymore?

• 2:40:45Speaker 02

  I heard Will Smith say it.

• 2:40:48Jocko Willink?

  That doesn't like certify it for the podcast.

• 2:40:51Speaker 02

  I know, I know, bro. I figured I'd try it out though.

• 2:40:53Jocko Willink?

  Just no, it's been tried, it failed, next.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  Rejected, huh?

• 2:40:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:58Speaker 02

  Alright, if you want some new cool stuff to do in regards to a workout. Hey man, look, Onnit has all these one, they have battle ropes and maces and cool stuff. And they have cool videos on there, by the way. Don't get addicted to the website. Spend appropriate amounts of time on the website, not too much. Remember how you're talking about like, you know, when you watch a video on YouTube and then another one pops up?

• 2:41:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, six of them pop up.

• 2:41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, all formulated for you, by the way.

• 2:41:23Jocko Willink?

  Especially picked.

• 2:41:24Speaker 02

  Watch out for that.

• 2:41:25Jocko Willink?

  Weird YouTube munchkins that are like saying, I know what Jocko likes.

• 2:41:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's actually.

• 2:41:29Jocko Willink?

  He wants to see another street fight.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  That's what you watch, huh? Psycho. Anyway, just watch out for that on the website, on the Onnit website. Because the videos are real interesting, but they're about workouts though, a lot of them. So it's kind of, it's kind of a catch 22.

• 2:41:45Jocko Willink?

  Watching a video about working out does not replace working out, though.

• 2:41:48Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all. You gotta get after it for sure, but a lot of options on there. Anyway, Onnit.com slash Jocko, that's the one right there. Also, you know what though, in this camp, so.

• 2:42:01Speaker 02

  Some guys came to the camp, they brought this 200 pound.

• 2:42:06Jocko Willink?

  Bag.

• 2:42:07Speaker 02

  Bag of, he said it was a sandbag, but it's like gravel essentially. And the challenge is.

• 2:42:15Speaker 02

  To pick it up over your shoulder, 200 pounds. So even that really, I mean, that's not that easy 200 pounds. The way, when they're explaining it to me.

• 2:42:27Speaker 02

  It was Mike, Gerard, Brian, Victor. They were explaining to me, while they're explaining it to me. I'm thinking, okay, I know what 150 pound dumbbell feels like when you lift it up.

• 2:42:44Speaker 02

  And I'm thinking, could I get that? And that has a handle and balance, by the way. So I'm like, shoot, could, do I, ah, man, I don't know if I could do that. Could I, could I do that? And then they're like, oh, yeah, you know, like I've done it and I'm like, okay, so it can be done. Like it's, it's obviously not like this thing. You need years of practice or whatever. So I was like, but man, I don't know. And then sure enough, so it's, yeah, when I went and did it, it was like, it was hard. I failed the first one. I brought, you bring it up, you kind of bring it onto your lap, fuck 200 pounds, man. That's not like, it's like, you know how you say when you, when you pick up a, a person? And they're just dead weight. Similar to that. Anyway, boom, failed the first time. They're cheering me on. Thanks for that, by the way, guys.

• 2:43:27Speaker 02

  That helped me. And then the second time I did it, it was, it was good. One of the high points. Anyway, that, that was just a side note. Also.

• 2:43:35Jocko Willink?

  Just to, so a bunch of people don't have to ask me.

• 2:43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:38Jocko Willink?

  I did not participate in the challenge. I have an injured rib. That was that.

• 2:43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you weren't real happy about that. You're still not happy. I see it on your face, man.

• 2:43:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:49Jocko Willink?

  The ribs almost healed. Uh, thanks, Andy. That was Andy. Andy, Andy did that to my ribs.

• 2:43:54Speaker 02

  In a way, and this is, I think you paid a bigger price than me, but you messed up my rib in, in identical way. A few months ago.

• 2:44:02Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you were gonna get a submission on me? And then you hurt yourself?

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  No, I was trying, I, I was escaping the submission. So it was essentially the same situation, but instead this time you got the rib injury.

• 2:44:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:15Speaker 02

  Instead of the guy you were trying to tap out. So yeah, so in a way, good for you, you know, and I hope we've all learned something from this whole thing today. Anyway.

• 2:44:25Speaker 02

  Also, when you buy this book, and you will and should.

• 2:44:31Jocko Willink?

  Tough as they come.

• 2:44:32Speaker 02

  Tough as they come. Travis Mills.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  Get it through our website. That's a good way to support. I have a little section. We have a little section. Books from the podcast. Click on there. It'll be by episode. This is, um, you know. This is a good way to support. Click through there. It'll bring you to Amazon, even if you're gonna do any other shopping. Boom, even just as good a way to support that way. Just click through. Get the book. That's a good way. Small action, big reaction. Small click, click. One, two. It's like two more clicks. Super small action.

• 2:45:06Jocko Willink?

  Somebody asked me, they said, hey, does it really help the podcast to like do the Amazon click through? And I said, absolutely, it really does. And they said, well, like, how much? And I said, well, it's basically the way Echo describes it. It's basically the way Echo describes it. Small action, big reaction. So.

• 2:45:23Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:45:24Jocko Willink?

  You're actually very right on that one.

• 2:45:25Speaker 02

  Yes. Yep, I, you know, I just had a feeling from the beginning that that was, that's a good way to put it. And it is, really. Also, subscribe to the podcast. It's a good way to support. Stitcher, iTunes, Google Play, all these ones that provide pla- uh, podcasts. Um, this seems, you know, seems like something that everyone probably has done already, but you know, if you haven't subscribed to that, that's a good one. If you're in the mood, leave a review. That's a good one. Some good reviews on there already. And thank you guys for doing that. Very colorful. Would you say colorful? Is that a good?

• 2:46:02Jocko Willink?

  Yes, colorful, creative.

• 2:46:04Speaker 02

  Creative, yeah. It's good. They're fun to read from time to time. Also, YouTube. If you like the video or wanna watch the video version of this podcast, see what Travis looks like, see what Jocko looks like. See what I look like, if you're into that. Um, yeah, subscribe to the YouTube. Get a, get a little alert. When we upload a video.

• 2:46:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but beyond just watching what we look like, there's other things that come from the YouTube.

• 2:46:30Speaker 02

  Channel, yeah.

• 2:46:31Jocko Willink?

  That are not on the podcast.

• 2:46:32Speaker 02

  Oh, right, yeah, if you subscribe, yeah.

• 2:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Right, whether it's little augmented videos that you make with your creative, um, spin on them.

• 2:46:40Speaker 02

  Full hair.

• 2:46:41Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, there's just straight excerpts.

• 2:46:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:46:44Jocko Willink?

  And then there's deleted scenes.

• 2:46:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, deleted scenes. I think I'm put some more on there. I, there's a few. You know what? When you kind of go through and I, then I wa- you know, when I edit, right? So really, the edit, the audio editing process, pretty simple. You cut off the beginning. You cut off the end, you fade it in, you fade it out. Done. That's it.

• 2:47:04Jocko Willink?

  Easy.

• 2:47:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the parts that I cut off, there's some

• 2:47:09Jocko Willink?

  Some nuggets in there.

• 2:47:10Speaker 02

  Interesting stuff and you know, when you're in the, in the moment, I'm talking to you, it's just regular, we're just talking and whatever. Maybe we're laughing, maybe not, but when you kind of go back and listen to it, it's kind of funny.

• 2:47:21Speaker 02

  Anyway, I'll put some, some of those on there too. So yeah, if you subscribe to the YouTube channel, you can watch those. Those are cool. The excerpts are just kind of like, um, you know, shareable, smaller, you know, nuggets of Jocko wisdom, which is cool. I mean, you know, if you don't want to listen to the whole podcast just for the thing. In fact, in fact, there is a couple of people were there like, yeah, I listened to those, the, the guy at the camp. He was like, yeah, I listened to those excerpts like almost every day.

• 2:47:44Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:45Speaker 02

  Cause they're like, yeah, there's a lot of them there now too. By the way, also Jocko has a store. It's called Jocko Store.

• 2:47:54Speaker 02

  jockostore.com. There's some shirts on there.

• 2:47:58Speaker 02

  If you want to support, so I'm not saying buy a shirt. I'm not saying buy a hat. Got hats on there now.

• 2:48:03Jocko Willink?

  Snapback.

• 2:48:04Speaker 02

  Snapback. My bad. I thought they were.

• 2:48:07Jocko Willink?

  Echo was wrong.

• 2:48:08Speaker 02

  You know what?

• 2:48:08Jocko Willink?

  Echo thought it was flex fit trucker hats. They don't exist.

• 2:48:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they don't.

• 2:48:12Jocko Willink?

  Doesn't have those in the world, doesn't need them.

• 2:48:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it almost doesn't make sense. Well, maybe, I don't know. I for real thought they were flex fit, but you know what? I, I looked into it and I, I realized that the, um, the reason that I thought they're flex fit is because some new hats I'm coming out with.

• 2:48:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 2:48:29Speaker 02

  Maybe in a few weeks. They're like, they're a different style of hat and they're flex fit. They look dope too, by the way. I'll show them to you one day.

• 2:48:37Jocko Willink?

  Cool.

• 2:48:38Speaker 02

  Um, so yeah, I'm not saying, hey, I'm not saying, hey, buy, buy a shirt, buy a rash guard or whatever. I'm saying go in the store. Jocko Store. Look on there. Check out the items and if you like something, get something. Some hoodies on there, some women's stuff, some patches, which are cool. I've seen a few of those on people's backpacks. Actually, they look kind of dope. I'm gonna, um, probably put one on my backpack. Um, and you know, some other stuff.

• 2:49:04Jocko Willink?

  Thanks for letting us all know.

• 2:49:07Speaker 02

  You know, sometimes you just think, think out loud and whatever.

• 2:49:09Jocko Willink?

  Curious about that. We, we'll all be looking forward to seeing that.

• 2:49:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll show it to you when it's done. Anyway. jockostore.com, that's a good way. Also, Psychological Warfare. Who are we just talking to that? Oh, Pete. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where, okay, basically Psychological Warfare, what is that? It is an album with tracks. Jocko tracks. Where in your campaign against weakness, meaning if you're, if you have goals, like, okay, so I listen to Jordan Peterson. And he kinda, he has this thing, I'm not gonna go like too much into it, but he has this thing where it's like, okay, why don't, why don't people get what they want? And so, because, and one of the reasons is because they just don't know what that is. And we kinda don't.

• 2:49:56Speaker 02

  Even if you say, I wanna get better, better in what?

• 2:49:58Jocko Willink?

  Jiu-Jitsu.

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  Cause you can do one push-up a day and you're technically better. Technically. So it's like, what do you mean better? Better how? Whatever, whatever. So, anyway, back to the psychological. If you wanna, I don't know, lose weight, you wanna wake up earlier and be more disciplined in these specific ways and all this stuff. You wanna clean up your diet. To clean up your diet, you gotta avoid junk food, all this stuff. Junk food, you get distracted by short-term payoffs, right? With junk food. Cause junk, the whole idea of junk food is short-term payoff over long-term payoff. Good diet, long-term payoff. Bad diet, short-term payoff. Anyway, if you get tempted by weakness, you listen to the Psychological Warfare album, or just a track or whatever.

• 2:50:42Speaker 02

  So, look, you're waking up early in the morning, 4:30 every day, that's what I'm doing from now on. That one day when you're kinda tired and the alarm goes off and you're tempted or compelled to press the snooze. Or just stay in bed, I'll wake up later, or wake up at noon. Just saying, some people wake up at noon sometimes. Play this track called Get Up and Get After It. I guarantee you won't wake up at noon. You'll wake up at the assigned time. Assigned by yourself, by the way. Hundred percent, um, success rate on that. If you fail, if you listen to this and you fail at your little thing, yeah, I don't know, I don't know what to say. But that's a good one. Psychological Warfare, Jocko Willink, look for it, look into it.

• 2:51:28Jocko Willink?

  Also, you can get some Jocko White Tea. You can get that on Amazon. It'll make you be able to do amazing feats of strengths.

• 2:51:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:51:36Jocko Willink?

  With no effort, barely at all.

• 2:51:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, like the Rock Bag.

• 2:51:39Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the Jocko White Tea. Boom. You nailed it.

• 2:51:42Speaker 02

  Easy money, one hand.

• 2:51:43Jocko Willink?

  Uh, books, like Echo said, Tough As They Come by Travis Mills. You can get that. You can also get a book called Extreme Ownership that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin. It's about combat leadership. Way of the Warrior Kid. If you want your kid or a kid that you know to be stronger, smarter, healthier, and therefore, because they're stronger, smarter, and healthier, they're also more confident. If you want to do that for a kid, get him a book called Way of the Warrior Kid.

• 2:52:15Jocko Willink?

  Then you can also get the Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Um, it got a little bump the other day. I don't know. I think, uh, like in social media, I put something out and it got a little bump and all of a sudden the delivery dates of people that just ordered it got pushed back.

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:52:34Jocko Willink?

  So I don't know. I don't know specifically like what that means, but I tell you this. It means you should order it now. If you want to get it when it comes out, order it. If you want that first edition copy, which is pretty much what you want. If you need leadership in your world, which you probably do, because that's the way things get done, is through leadership. And you need help in that department, you can contact our leadership consulting company, Echelon Front. It's me. It's Leif Babin, JP Denell, Dave Burke. You can email us at [email protected]. If you want us to come speak or work with your company, that's what you do. And finally, and this is uh, the muster.

• 2:53:19Jocko Willink?

  We are close to selling it out right now. Um, the one that's in San Diego, September fourteenth and fifteenth. Leadership Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for Business and Life. Get better at everything. Get registered. Do it now before it sells out. It might even be sold out by the time this podcast comes out, but check it out. See if you can find it. Um, see if you can get there. Extremeownership.com. And until the muster, if you do need to communicate with us, we're actually cruising on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram.

• 2:53:56Jocko Willink?

  And also, the Facebook people, ah, Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocko Willink. And to all the military members out there that are holding the line, thank you. And to those veterans that stood the watch, especially those that were wounded.

• 2:54:23Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for giving us our freedom.

• 2:54:28Jocko Willink?

  And to police, law enforcement, firefighters, EMTs, and other first responders, thank you for your service. And thank you for keeping us protected from man and from nature here at home.

• 2:54:47Jocko Willink?

  And to everyone else out there facing struggles and facing hard times, remember.

• 2:54:57Jocko Willink?

  Remember the challenges that Travis Mills faced and still faces. And he faces those incredible challenges every minute of every day.

• 2:55:13Jocko Willink?

  And he does that with tenacity and positivity and proves without question

• 2:55:25Jocko Willink?

  that if you never quit and you never give up and you keep moving forward, then nothing can stop you

• 2:55:36Jocko Willink?

  from getting after it.

• 2:55:39Jocko Willink?

  So until next time, this is Echo and Jocko. Out.