Reach for Greatness with Steven Spielberg

This week, Michelle and Craig are joined by one of the most influential filmmakers in the history of cinema, Steven Spielberg! On only his third-ever podcast appearance, the legendary filmmaker opens up about his childhood, his craft, and his new movie Disclosure Day. Plus, he shares which actor almost played the iconic role of Indiana Jones, and how the moviegoing experience can build community. Have a question you want answered? Write to us at imopod.com http://imopod.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I've never really been in psychoanalysis at all my entire life. Because I think the camera was my-

• 0:05Michelle Obama?

  Well, we're gonna do that here.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  Well, I figured we were going there.

• 0:08Craig Robinson?

  We got him in a nice-

• 0:09Speaker 00

  I figured we were going there.

• 0:11Craig Robinson?

  Don't scare him away.

• 0:11Michelle Obama?

  We're gonna do that right now, Steven.

• 0:13Speaker 00

  And I don't have my security blanket, which is my, uh, Bullex. My Bullex camera.

• 0:24Michelle Obama?

  This episode is brought to you by Chase Home Lending.

• 0:30Michelle Obama?

  Well, hello. Hi, there is a, there's a buzz in the room.

• 0:34Craig Robinson?

  I know, it's a full house here.

• 0:36Michelle Obama?

  It's a thrum.

• 0:39Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, it is a full back pen bench. I mean, you know, and everybody is like, I'm sitting in this one.

• 0:45Craig Robinson?

  I wonder why, huh?

• 0:46Michelle Obama?

  Oh, man, really truly special guests we have today. Steven Spielberg, the one and only Steven Spielberg. And we're gonna talk about his films and his movies. But the truth is, is that I've had the pleasure to get to know him as Steven, my friend. You know, I, I know his work, but I have fallen in love with him and his family because of the man that he is. The person that he is. And, um, you know, he is really only doing this because he loves me dearly. I know that. He does not like talking about anything but his work.

• 1:27Michelle Obama?

  He has told me that this is only his third podcast that he's ever done. Um, and, and I'm just thrilled to have him on because I love him. He is one of the best human beings that I've, I've, I know, and you've-

• 1:42Craig Robinson?

  I've gotten to know him through you and, uh, and I can't, I have a couple of things to share with him when he comes out. So I'm, I'm really excited that he's here too. And when we were talking a little bit before we came on, I was really-

• 1:59Craig Robinson?

  Touched that he was excited to be here and that he doesn't do this. And he seemed like he was enjoying, at least enjoyed the, the, the pre-part of it.

• 2:11Michelle Obama?

  Well, let's introduce him and get him, get him out here.

• 2:15Craig Robinson?

  I, I will. And I, I almost, I, I almost feel, um, I, I shouldn't be the one introducing him. He's so revered and such a, such a, an icon.

• 2:28Michelle Obama?

  But you must introduce him. So please read the introduction.

• 2:31Craig Robinson?

  Steven Spielberg is one of the most successful and influential filmmakers in history. He has directed major feature films since the mid 1970s and is considered the father of the modern blockbuster. Spielberg, which I realized from reading the research when he was younger, he did, people called him Spielberg and he is, he didn't want to be called by his last name, you know? So I, I, I feel honored that I can call him Steven. Is one of the few to achieve EGOT status.

• 3:09Michelle Obama?

  Just got that.

• 3:10Craig Robinson?

  Just got it. Having won Academy, Emmy, Grammy and Tony Awards across film, television, music and theater. In 2015, President Barack Obama, who we know, presented him with the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. And in 2024, President Joe Biden awarded him with the prestigious National Medal of the Arts. So without further ado, please welcome Steven Spielberg.

• 3:48Craig Robinson?

  Thanks for being here.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  My pleasure.

• 3:53Michelle Obama?

  We want you to feel at home because you were at home. You said you're not used to seeing me without, you know.

• 3:59Speaker 00

  Palm trees.

• 4:00Michelle Obama?

  Palm trees or casual clothes.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 4:04Michelle Obama?

  In a swim cover up or something, but.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Because it's interesting because I don't think I've ever. This is only my third, I believe, only my third podcast. And this is my first podcast with a dear friend. I've never done one with a dear friend before.

• 4:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, well, we have fun here. As I said, we let the conversation flow. And I want to start by giving you a compliment of how completely cute you look today.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. Thank you, Kate Caffrey, my wife.

• 4:38Michelle Obama?

  See, this is why I bring this up because, you know, I asked you, who dressed you today?

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Well.

• 4:46Michelle Obama?

  Were you allowed to?

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, who dressed me today? Because I'm here with you in L.A. And Kate's back in our home in New York City. And of course, she's not here. But of course, when I came home last night, the entire outfit for today was already hanging up in the closet with everything laid out.

• 5:05Michelle Obama?

  She's very clear. She's very clear. You direct many things, but your look, you do not, you're not allowed to touch your own look.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no. I produce my career, but Kate produces my life.

• 5:19Michelle Obama?

  Well, how you feeling?

• 5:20Speaker 00

  I'm feeling good. I'm feeling excited. I'm feeling nervous. I'm feeling all those things that a person feels before they have a film come out.

• 5:28Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's the, we talk about this, how nervous you still get when you've got a project coming out. The great Steven Spielberg. You still feel those jitters to have your piece out there in the world?

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, one would think that I would by this time in my life and career, I'd be standing on a solid cement floor, but it's still pretty liquid. You know, it doesn't matter how many movies, you know, I've directed or produced. Each one in a way, especially the directed films, each one. In a way feels like an earlier work, not something with a lot of experience to back it up. So every film is a new, is a new experience for me.

• 6:09Craig Robinson?

  And are you nervous for the, the reception? Are you nervous for what your friends would think? What are you nervous about?

• 6:16Speaker 00

  Oh, no, I'm excited for the reception. I cannot wait to unleash this film on the world. What I'm nervous about is I now have to talk about it for the next eight weeks. Before it comes out.

• 6:26Michelle Obama?

  It's the talking part. You do not like to be out in front.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Well, I'll tell you why, because it's really, really hard to make a movie. And, and when I finish a film, I think the film is over. But today, with the way information is collated and disseminated about stories, films, it's almost like going back to work again and starting the movie from scratch. Even though the movie already is there, about to speak for itself. The, my, my job now is to sort of speak up for the film without giving too much of the film away. And that's the delicate, tightrope. We all have to walk, especially if you've made a movie that's all about mystery. And, and you don't want to give too much of that mystery up.

• 7:09Michelle Obama?

  And you've been pretty good about this, this movie, keeping it under wraps. I will tell you that my husband is a bully to you when it comes to your movies. You know, I always reprimand him, but what did he, what did he, because you haven't let him see this one. And he's very mad about that.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, he said if he wasn't among the first to see it, he was going to watch it only on an iPhone.

• 7:32Michelle Obama?

  Which.

• 7:33Speaker 00

  And he said he was only watching.

• 7:34Michelle Obama?

  Which he knows would irritate you.

• 7:35Speaker 00

  And he said he wouldn't watch it horizontally, he'd only watch it vertically.

• 7:40Craig Robinson?

  Oh, that's not nice.

• 7:42Michelle Obama?

  But he got to come on set for this one.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  This is the first set Barack ever visited. Even though your daughter's a filmmaker, Malia. So I feel bad. I scooped Malia and he came on my

• 7:54Michelle Obama?

  She doesn't care. She will never invite us to anything that she does. You know, she doesn't want us around her stuff, but he had a ball.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was great. It was great. It was, of course, for my cast, it was a bit of a religious experience because in walks this iconic president who comes onto our set.

• 8:13Michelle Obama?

  That seems like a lot of pressure.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  To me, he's a, he's a good friend. Of course, all of us, he's, we know, we know each other so well. But on the set, the kids didn't know Barack except from, you know, what he's done for the world and who he represents. And they were just absolutely, and I have a very extroverted cast. You could hear a pin drop when he walked in. They didn't know what, they didn't know what to say.

• 8:36Michelle Obama?

  Did they know he was coming ahead of time?

• 8:38Speaker 00

  I didn't tell all of them. I told some of them, but not all of them.

• 8:44Michelle Obama?

  And I know you, well, we're, we're talking about your latest project, which is Disclosure.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Disclosure Day.

• 8:50Michelle Obama?

  Disclosure Day. And why don't you give us the premise of, of, of the movie, what, what we can expect?

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Well, the movie, I, you know, I've been, I've, I've been sort of on this dance floor before when I was much, much younger. I made a movie in 1976, which came out in 1977 called Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

• 9:11Michelle Obama?

  Oh, that one. I think I remember that.

• 9:15Craig Robinson?

  You think you heard of that one, huh?

• 9:17Speaker 00

  And that was a movie certainly about the first time, you know, humankind meets an advanced civilization from off, off our world, from, from out there. So, and I haven't really visited that particular subject matter for close to 50 years. Next year, it'll be 50 years when Close Encounters was, was released.

• 9:38Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 9:38Speaker 00

  But I felt, starting back in, I think, 2023, when the New York Times came out with a story, it was a story influenced by a whistleblower that released some footage to the New York Times. And it was a story written by, I believe, Helene Cooper and Ralph Blumenthal and, and Leslie, Leslie Keen.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  And it was a story about what Navy pilots had photographed on their FLIR systems, their infrared systems, their forward-facing infrared systems, of a UFO, now called a UAP, which stands for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomenon. I kinda like unidentified flying objects better. I like UFO better than that.

• 10:25Michelle Obama?

  I'm so used to it, yeah. I won't remember that.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  But in a sense, it brought a more of a serious, more of an acceptable sort of lexicon of terms to a world that even now, 50 years after Close Encounters, is more likely to believe that something has been happening for decade upon decade upon decade about our world being visited. And our movie is about what would happen if all this information was disclosed, all at the same time. How would that affect everything? And the story really is about the attempt to stop any disclosure from ever taking place. And that's why a lot of this film is a wild, wild relentless chase.

• 11:12Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. What is your, I won't say obsession, but your deep interest in what's happening beyond our planet?

• 11:24Speaker 00

  I guess it's just because of my curiosity, even more than my imagination, because there's a lot of Close Encounters that I made up, but there's a lot in Disclosure Day that I don't really feel I needed to make up because it's out there, as they said with The X-Files. The truth is out there, and I think the truth is now here. And who is brave enough to really come forward and tell all of us that we shouldn't be afraid of living with this truth? And that curiosity, more than imagination, is what drove me to tackle the subject.

• 11:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. And you have told me how much you love this cast.

• 12:04Speaker 00

  I love this cast. Everybody had Emily Blunt and Josh O'Connor, Coleman Domingo.

• 12:11Michelle Obama?

  It's just like the hits keep hitting.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Colin Firth and Eve Hewson, Wyatt Russell. I was blessed with a great cast.

• 12:28Craig Robinson?

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• 13:12Craig Robinson?

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• 13:34Speaker 03

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• 13:37Craig Robinson?

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• 14:21Craig Robinson?

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• 16:42Michelle Obama?

  And you like working with people again and again.

• 16:48Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 16:48Michelle Obama?

  Is that intentional? I mean, you know, you think of Tom Cruise and you think of Tom Hanks, all the Toms, and Harrison Ford.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Right, Harrison Ford. I love working with, you know, the same actors again, but the main, my main family really is the, is the crew.

• 17:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  I've had the same composer, John Williams. I was with him yesterday finishing up our film.

• 17:13Michelle Obama?

  Wow, and how many films have you guys done together?

• 17:16Speaker 00

  John and I, this is our 30th film together as director composer. And, and you know, my, my, so many people in my life, I've had in my life.

• 17:27Michelle Obama?

  Tony Kushner.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  Tony Kushner has, has written five, four, four, five, David Koep, who wrote Disclosure Day, has written five other films for me.

• 17:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 00

  It's, it's, you know what it does, Michelle, it creates a shorthand. And also, when you have people that really service the story, as Shakespeare said, the play is the thing.

• 17:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 00

  And that's the most important thing. And when you get people that know how to service, not my needs, but the actual needs of the story, and they all do their jobs, and they do their, and they do their jobs so brilliantly, there's no reason on earth that you shouldn't want to hire those people over and over and over again. So I brought with me Kristi McCosko, has been with me for 29 years. Kristi McCosko already has five Oscar nominations for Best Picture. You know, we have a great family.

• 18:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  Very lucky.

• 18:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, but that, you know, that comes from the, the head, you know? There are a lot of people doing great movies, they don't want to work with the same director again and again, you know? And that says a lot about you, Stephen.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  You know, I give good rap gifts, they're always gonna want to work with me again.

• 18:32Michelle Obama?

  You think that's it? I don't think that's it. I think it's a little bit more than the rap gift.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:37Michelle Obama?

  You know, I think it's the, I think it's the way that you are with people, and your passion for what you're doing, and you're also a loyal person.

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:47Michelle Obama?

  You know?

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Well, I, you know, I, I, loyalty is, is important, but it's something, loyalty is something that. Is sort of a natural thing for me. I mean, it's a natural thing for me based on who my mom and dad were and and the four kids they raised and the values that they imparted on all of us.

• 19:05Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 19:06Craig Robinson?

  Well, I'm glad you said something about your mom and dad because the last time we were together was at Misha's place in Martha's Vineyard.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:16Craig Robinson?

  And I want our audience to know that Stephen's wife Kate did a painting of one of the pictures of Misha and mom and

• 19:30Michelle Obama?

  You.

• 19:31Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, the three of us.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 19:33Craig Robinson?

  And the picture was so moving.

• 19:39Craig Robinson?

  The painting was so moving that it brought us all to tears. And I, and the last time I was with you was with mom.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 19:50Craig Robinson?

  And she was such a huge fan of yours and you were always so kind to her. And she felt like she had a relationship with you just over the few times that you guys had met.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:02Craig Robinson?

  And I want to thank you for that.

• 20:03Speaker 00

  Thank you for telling me that. Well, we had more than a few times together. And she was, as we used to say, I'm a baby boomer, so I'm able to say this, she's a card.

• 20:14Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 00

  And she was endlessly delightful and completely forthcoming and brutally honest in the most warm, loving way. And just adored her. And thank you for mentioning Kate that way because no one knows until now.

• 20:30Craig Robinson?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  That Kate painted the picture of you and Michelle and your mom.

• 20:36Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, she is a really gifted, gifted woman and, you know, the ultimate true partner. I know, and I know you know, that you couldn't do what you do without somebody as sturdy and talented. And, you know, she's your creative partner in so many ways.

• 20:57Speaker 00

  Oh, no, in every way, in every way.

• 20:59Craig Robinson?

  But I was watching you with my mom and I was wondering about your relationship with your mom. It must have been wonderful because, given the way you treated our mom.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  When I grew up, when I grew up with my mom and dad, and this is just to find who they are, and I love them both so tenderly and equally, and I miss them equally as well. But, you know, my dad was a real dad, and my mom was a playmate.

• 21:25Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:26Speaker 00

  So when I was a little kid, I had friends, and I had my mom, who was my friend. And, uh, and that was the way she was with Aunt Sue and Nancy, all of us.

• 21:35Michelle Obama?

  They're sisters.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  She really, it wasn't that she had to drop down to our level to relate to us, she kinda pulled us up to hers. And, um, and we just got a hell of a kick out of each other. And to be able to be raised by a mom, who you so thoroughly enjoy hanging out with.

• 21:55Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 00

  That's what, that's, that's, that's where I think I had a very privileged and lovely childhood.

• 22:00Michelle Obama?

  What would be some of the best play moments that you had with your mom?

• 22:05Speaker 00

  Oh, well, my mom, you know, when we were living in Phoenix, I was, I was the oldest of, uh, of, of, I'm the oldest in the family of four. And, um, we, we got to Phoenix, Arizona, and the first thing my mom did was, I was 12 years old, 11, no, I was 10, 10 and a half years old, we got to Phoenix, and my mom went out and got a Willis Army Jeep from the Korean War.

• 22:25Michelle Obama?

  What?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  And went running around town with all of us in the back of the Jeep. In those days, by the way, there were no seatbelts or airbags.

• 22:30Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah, no. Just bouncing around in the back.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  So we're in an open Jeep with no seatbelts, with my mom, who's, uh, who, who was a, basically, she was a pretty fast driver. And we'd be, and Jeeps have no suspension, so we're just trying to not pop out of the car, going down, you know, Black Canyon Highway, going 55 miles an hour. And, and with my mom wearing a, a, a sort of a, kind of a cowboy hat and a serapi.

• 22:56Michelle Obama?

  Wow.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  So, so my mom, every, my, my mom had a personality that stood out.

• 23:01Michelle Obama?

  Wow. And did that, you know, sometimes that can make a kid feel uncomfortable, that you have a mom that's kinda out there, kooky, um, how did you feel growing up?

• 23:12Speaker 00

  That was great, cause all my friends just loved hanging out with her. Because once again, she was part of my peer group.

• 23:19Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  And when I was 10 years old, she was part of our peer group. When I was 16 and driving, she was part of that peer group. When I was, you know, going to college, 18, 19 years old, she was part of that peer group. And my mom just really was, I think we dressed to her as opposed to her dressing down to us. I think we somehow, we always were, and we, I admired my mom's style, but I could never myself be that kind of outrageous.

• 23:44Michelle Obama?

  Out there.

• 23:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, out there.

• 23:46Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  She cornered that market.

• 23:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. What role do you think she played in you starting, picking up a camera? I mean, was that part of that imagination, her free spirit nature, did that impact your decision to make movies? Because you were, you were making movies so young, you know?

• 24:08Speaker 00

  I think it, certainly it did. It was, it was sort of my dad's camera that I borrowed, the eight millimeter Kodak camera I borrowed to start making movies. And my, my movies were just movies of our camping trips. Because I could hold the camera steadier than my dad did. He didn't have so much patience with the camera and I did. And it kind of started that way. So in a way, even though in The Fableman's, there's a scene where Mitzi, my mom, her name was Leah, Lee, she gives the character Sammy a camera. In fact, it was my dad in real life that gave me the camera for the first time. So my dad was pretty instrumental in getting me equipped with something that I could sort of vent

• 24:51Speaker 00

  everything I was feeling and seeing and, and being scared of. When something scared me, I went off and made a little eight millimeter movie so I could frighten other people. It's kind of like, well, that's something scared me. I'm going to make a movie about what scared me so I can scare others. And, and it was, it was a real, I mean, I've never really been in psychoanalysis at all my entire life, because I think the camera was my-

• 25:14Michelle Obama?

  Well, we're gonna do that here.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Well, I figured we were going there.

• 25:17Craig Robinson?

  We got him.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  I figured we were going there.

• 25:19Craig Robinson?

  Don't scare him away.

• 25:20Michelle Obama?

  We're gonna do that right now, Stephen.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And I don't have my security blanket, which is my Bollex, my Bollex camera.

• 25:28Michelle Obama?

  But you still do that. I mean, this is a beautiful thing, your gift to us when we're all together in a group. You mean, you're, you're not shy, you know? You're talkative, but when there's a moment- You're filming it, you know, you pull out your phone and you're sort of like the elf on the shelf. Just kind of, and then you give that gift back to us, you know, at the end of our time together. It's like, oh, Steven was back there and he was watching that and he captured that and, you know, what is that, what's that about in your personality where that's, that's your comfort spot?

• 26:06Speaker 00

  I think from my earliest memories of having a camera in my hand, that the great thing about seeing, let's say, the home movies, I was always aware of time passing, even when I was like 10, 11 years old and I was making a movie of my dad, you know, catching a trout and cleaning the fish and then having eggs and fish for breakfast in the White Mountains of Arizona. I would look at that even as a kid to say, I'm marking time, I'm marking this moment and I'm, because someday I'm going to look back on it. If I don't have this, if I don't have this antiquity, I'm not, I may not remember it. And I want, I want to be able to remember all the good times and all the bad times.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  And so I just started being a kind of videographer of our, of our family. Took all the home movies and then when I was on my own in college, I was taking eight millimeter movies of my friends in school. And then when I got into the movie business, I continued to take videos when film, you know, termed out and videos became popular, I switched my, my equipment. And I've always sort of been a little philosophical and very, very nostalgic. I've always been very nostalgic.

• 27:19Craig Robinson?

  What, when, so you, you talk about getting a camera and then trying to make, make films that, that affected you. So something scared you, so you made something scary. What kind of movies were you watching as a kid that sort of? Piqued your interest in the, in the, in the whole vocation.

• 27:45Speaker 00

  Well, when I was a kid, you know, growing up, there were two ways to see movies. One, your parents had to drive you to a movie theater. So, all the movies I saw were not by choice. They were the films my mom and dad thought was appropriate for them to take me and maybe Anne and when Sue got old enough and later Nancy, uh, to accompany them to the movies. So, all the movies we saw were pretty sophisticated films. Um, I loved musicals because my parents loved musicals. And so, we went to, to, to the movie theater to watch a big kind of, you know, Gene Kelly, uh, Frank Sinatra, some kind of a movie. So, that was the other thing. The, the other access I had to stories being told to me was on television because we had

• 28:28Speaker 00

  movies that were shown on television in the fifties called The Late Show.

• 28:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  And so, these are movies that were, came out in the nineteen forties and some of them in the fifties. And, uh, we didn't have color television. So, even a color movie you saw in black and white. But it didn't matter because those movies I had more access to than theatrical films. And, uh, it's only when I started, um, making money on a paper route or whitewashing citrus trees as I used to do to raise money to make, to make my eight millimeter movies and to buy film and processing, I would be able to go out on my own and see movies on my own. And that's when I became pretty independent and could make my own choices. And, and so, the movies were eclectic. All the films I was interested, I'd like, I loved westerns. I saw The Searchers in a movie theater in New Jersey in nineteen fifty-seven, I think

• 29:15Speaker 00

  it was, when I was, I was, I was like nine, ten years old. You know, I love science fiction. I was crazy about science fiction. I remember seeing the movie that George Powell made called Destination Moon.

• 29:29Craig Robinson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:29Speaker 00

  I saw it in a revival house because it had already played out in theaters. It was being. It was being shown years after its initial release and I went to a theater and saw it for the first time and it was about, you know, humanity's first trip to the moon, to the moon. And it was crazy, good. And I'll never forget that film. And I loved the music. The music sounded like the kind of classical music my dad and mom would play, like Ray Vaughan Williams, or Bartok, or Shostakovich. And suddenly the score of this movie sounded like classical music. It was a composer named Leif Stevens and it was the very first soundtrack album I ever purchased. And played it until I wore the record out.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  So that, it sort of all started with, I think, the Western and the science fiction film.

• 30:15Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah. And music for you has always been, the soundtrack has always been something, we've talked about this before. You were very savant-like when it comes to compositions. It's like, name that composition in one note and Steven can get it. Did that come from your mom, her love of music?

• 30:38Speaker 00

  It did, it did, because I was raised, I was raised with, you know, basically my mom was a keyboard artist and she pretty much performed Schumann, Schubert, you know, Bach, Brahms, Chopin. And that was the music of my childhood, that's what I grew up with. But my private life, I grew up with the music of, of, you know, Eric Wolfgang Korngold, Max Steiner, Franz Waxman, you know, so many of the, you know, Dmitri Tiamkin and Miklas Rocha. These are the great, most of them immigrants that came to America to write music.

• 31:19Speaker 00

  And they would have preferred to write concert pieces, symphonic pieces, or even opera, but they couldn't get jobs doing that, so they started to write music for movies. Max Steiner wrote the score for, you know, some of the greatest films, including, you know, the Western I love so much called The Searchers. And, and so while my mom was doing forehand with a friend in the living room, I'd be in my bedroom with my record player, playing motion picture soundtracks. And every time I heard a movie score, it would make me want to tell a story and write it down on paper.

• 31:55Michelle Obama?

  And storytelling, you know, what can you talk a bit about your your process for how you how you choose a story and and when I mean, your stories range from extraterrestrial to the Holocaust to world wars, you cover it all. What makes you decide to be interested in a story? And when are you when are you ready to tell it? Because even The Fableman's, I mean, you didn't touch your life, you know, you sort of stayed away from your biography.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  I did.

• 32:31Michelle Obama?

  Your entire career.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:32Michelle Obama?

  And then all of a sudden, The Fableman's comes out, which, by the way, is one of my favorite films of you. I've told you this before.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thank you, Michelle. Well, The Fableman's, you know, The Fableman's was kind of my reaction to the passing of my parents.

• 32:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  I would have told the story while they were alive, but I was a little too nervous to let out too much of that part of my personal life.

• 32:57Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  That wasn't just a metaphor. I was OK about taking my personal life and creating metaphor, but to directly recount things that happened and occurred in our lives and the trauma of the divorce that we all had to experience and live through and recover from, by the way, that was something I wasn't really willing to do. But when I lost my mom and dad, I kind of made the movie in memory of them, but also in a way, trying to get them back a little bit and back into my life.

• 33:25Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 33:25Speaker 00

  So I could run the movie and actually because Michelle Williams became my mom.

• 33:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 33:29Speaker 00

  Like, I couldn't imagine anybody becoming. I couldn't. I didn't think it was possible. But Michelle, based on some home videos that I showed her and some eight millimeter sound movies of my mom, Michelle had some kind of a, I guess, I guess you would call it a transcendental, you know, transference, where she either my mom came to her, and I think my mom did come to her on the movie, but she was her. And that was that was remarkable. As, you know, as was Paul Dana, was my dad.

• 33:59Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. And you shared that moment. You were trying to keep it together to make sure because you said. The cast and crew, they were worried about you through the process. They wanted to make sure that you were OK. And you were trying to settle them down. And then what happened when you came on set?

• 34:14Speaker 00

  What happened was I told them early on, I said, look, I've gotten all my tears out of the way with Tony Kushner. Tony wrote this as my writing partner. We wrote this very quickly. And Tony sort of got a lot of this out of me because he himself has some therapeutic skills that opened me up to allow me to be brave enough to put some of this down on paper with him. But I told everybody, I got all my tears out writing the script. I was going to be fine. And we got to the set of the very first day. And I had seen some of the wardrobe tests with the actors at the studio months before. But suddenly there's the set and the set happens to be the house I grew up in that Rick Carter, the production designer recreated based on all the home movies

• 34:58Speaker 00

  and home videos I had taken of that house. And he went on eBay and he found things in my bedroom that I forgot were in my bedroom. And he put them in the set of my bedroom, my childhood bedroom. And I walked onto that set and suddenly I'm home. I'm back in Phoenix and I'm home. You can't go home again if you make a movie. Only if you make a movie. And then Christie said, the cast is coming out for the first rehearsal. And Paul Dano came around the corner and Michelle Williams came around the corner. And what I really saw was my mom and dad back to life.

• 35:33Michelle Obama?

  And back together.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  And back together again, coming toward me. And I completely went back on my word and I lost it. And they were great. Michelle hugged me in the front and Paul came around the back and he hugged me around back. And we're in a bit of a Stephen sandwich. And they supported me through the whole process. And I needed the support.

• 35:59Craig Robinson?

  That's amazing. It's just amazing. And you taught, I heard you talk about in other interviews, or I read it somewhere during the research, that the thing that you were most worried about was how your sisters felt about this. Can you talk about the pressure of that? Because I can't even imagine doing something and worrying about her. I mean, I can imagine it, right?

• 36:24Michelle Obama?

  Well, you're telling everybody's story, right?

• 36:27Speaker 00

  Yes. But I'm not everybody whose story was told.

• 36:31Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  I'm only me.

• 36:32Craig Robinson?

  Right.

• 36:33Speaker 00

  And I could only tell my story and assume I was getting their stories right. So the first thing I did was send them all the screenplay. And I wanted them to give me notes, tell me where I made it up, tell me what was not accurate. Tell me, and they were great. And they had some adjustments and some notes to give me about their characters, about things that I didn't even know they were doing at the time these events were taking place, which helped the movie. And then they came onto the set from time to time, not all the time, but maybe once a week they'd come onto the set to visit and to watch and to cry and to commune with me. And the biggest nervous thing was when I showed them the film for the first time. And I showed it to Nancy and Sue in New York City and Ann in Los Angeles.

• 37:13Speaker 00

  And the first greeting was for my two sisters who were closer to where I was in New York. And that was, that was hard. That was hard because, because it was less about the film and more about what it felt like for them to be taken back in time, not reminded of something, but being given an experience that was very lifelike for them. And brought, brought everything up, all the antisemitism we experienced growing up, all of the tumult between my mom and my dad, the affair my mom had with my dad's best friend and business partner that eventually caused their marriage to dissolve.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  And it was really traumatizing to be in a room with them and experience them experiencing our lives together.

• 38:04Michelle Obama?

  Did it feel healing at all?

• 38:06Speaker 00

  It did, eventually.

• 38:07Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 38:08Speaker 00

  Not at first, because at first, all the old swords start to hemorrhage a little bit. And then after a while, it's completely healing.

• 38:17Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:19Michelle Obama?

  So what made it right to do that? You said to do to so it just felt like you were ready for that with Fabelman's?

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was ready to bring mom and dad back.

• 38:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. And other stories that you decide to tell and when? What's your, you know?

• 38:38Speaker 00

  Well, it depends because I'm a history buff. I love history. You know, I didn't do good in high school. The only thing I got a good grade in was history. And I love reading biographies. And so a lot of my films are historically, you know, anchored the Holocaust, World War II. Certainly the the the the Amistad and the Amistad Africans. You know, the story about Lincoln, you know, and the passage of the 13th Amendment. These are films that are very close to my heart because the history is close to me. And and so so I just love telling stories that actually happened and trying to get it as as right as possible. My dad fought in the Second World War. He was with the 490th Bomb Squadron called the Burma Bridge Busters stationed in Karachi

• 39:23Speaker 00

  and places in Burma. And my dad was eventually in charge of all the ground to air communication when all these B-25s and cargo planes were flying the hump, which was a very dangerous, you know, sortie to fly. And my dad was coordinating all of these flights. And so I heard stories as a child about two subjects. The Shoah, which they call the Great Murders, the Holocaust, and stories about World War II. So I had always been looking for a war movie to make, and I had seen a lot of war movies on television growing up, you know, but they're all sort of war movies that are pretty much

• 40:05Speaker 00

  filled with tropes, you know, and and yet you think those tropes are accurate until you actually meet the people that fought in that war. And and when Steven Ambrose wrote his book D-Day and the other book Citizen Soldier and introduced me to some of the veterans that landed on Omaha Beach on June 6, 1944, I suddenly realized that, oh, my God, we need to tell the story of what really happened with no tropes or a few tropes that we could possibly include.

• 40:38Craig Robinson?

  I've lived in quite a few major cities over the years, and I've always loved how much each one changed whenever a big event came to town. All of a sudden, Chicago would be filled with music lovers, or film aficionados, or of course, people dying to see the Cubs win. And in those moments, it can suddenly be quite difficult for visitors to find a place to stay, which is where Airbnb comes in, offering travelers an option with a bit more local charm. So if you've got some travel coming up during a big happening, like a music festival or a big sporting event, consider listing your place on Airbnb. It's an excellent way to be part of your city's experience.

• 41:24Craig Robinson?

  You're helping someone enjoy the weekend, the game, the whole vibe of your neighborhood, all while making a little extra income, some cash you could put towards your next big trip. I know when I've traveled, I've always appreciated those little details, the personal moments that help make me feel connected with somewhere new. It's what makes a trip memorable. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 42:01Michelle Obama?

  What's been the hardest location? I asked, maybe leading a little bit, but the first time you came to visit us, it was in Martha's Vineyard. And you hadn't been back to Martha's Vineyard since filming Jaws, because you said that you just couldn't face going back to that island because of the experience. Can you talk a bit about that?

• 42:28Speaker 00

  Well, actually, I have got you. You were like, when I was, saw you all in the Vineyard, that was maybe my fourth trip back.

• 42:35Michelle Obama?

  Okay.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  But I didn't go back for years and years and years after making Jaws, because that was the toughest location of my career was. Anybody, I mean, we were in the 12 miles out to sea, past the Cape Hoke Lighthouse. And it was, it's tough making a movie on the water. And I won't go through all that. Just, just read the documentary, Jaws at 50.

• 42:54Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Speaker 00

  It'll save me a half an hour of telling you on a podcast. Just go watch Jaws at 50, you'll see how hard it was.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  And, and, uh, thanks for the plug. Needless to say, it was, it was very, very, it was almost an impossible mission. A mission impossible. And if I probably knew how hard it was gonna be, I might not have done the movie if somebody had come out and told me by looking at a crystal ball. And instead of seeing Auntie Em in the ball saying, Dorothy, where are you? Instead of seeing that, you're seeing everybody throwing up over the, over the side of the boat and the ship in six foot waves and not, not getting our shots and the shark falling apart and coming out of the water tail first when it's attacking. You know, things like that. Uh, you, you probably, I probably might've had second thoughts about it, but, um, but,

• 43:45Speaker 00

  but it, it's a movie that also, um, because of the, what followed, because the film was so successful, it gave me freedom to make Close Encounters. So I never had to go, really go to a studio again and say, will you let me direct this movie? Because the studios after Josh were coming to me, as they do to any successful filmmaker to say, what do you wanna make? The phone book? We'll, we'll finance the phone book. And so it gave me, it gave me a lot of freedom. After that.

• 44:13Craig Robinson?

  I, and Nish said she just watched Saving Private Ryan. I just recently re-watched Sugarland Express.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  Oh, that was one of my

• 44:23Craig Robinson?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Best experiences. It's my first movie.

• 44:26Craig Robinson?

  I know. Can you talk about that whole process? Because

• 44:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:30Craig Robinson?

  I had, so I saw it a long time ago and then I watched it again. I haven't, and, and then I wanna talk to you about movies that get people to re-watch all the

• 44:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:39Craig Robinson?

  Over and over again, but that's another question. But I was watching Sugarland Express and the way you make the antagonists feel like a protagonist is my favorite thing in that movie. I was rooting for them the whole way and like everybody was, but can you talk about making that? And you talk about extras. How many police cars were in that movie?

• 45:07Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, there were like 50 or something. There were a lot of police cars.

• 45:10Craig Robinson?

  It felt like more, yeah.

• 45:11Speaker 00

  I don't remember. I just, I just know that I was I was making TV.

• 45:17Craig Robinson?

  Uh huh.

• 45:17Speaker 00

  I had made Duel, which sort of was considered my first feature because it was released in theaters internationally. Not domestically, it was on ABC Movie of the Week here in this country. But overseas, it was released theatrically. So, most people that do the filmographies sort of list that as my first film. But Sugarland was my first real theatrical American film. And I got the idea from reading a newspaper that came to my house. And I was living in an apartment in, off Lancashire Avenue and right across from Universal Studios. And it was, it was a newspaper called The Citizen News and there was a story about a Texas couple. They were trying to get their baby back from foster care. And they were in, and the guy was in pre-release, in a pre-release form.

• 45:59Speaker 00

  And they basically kidnapped a highway patrol officer and got in, or they stole a car. And they led this riotous chase, a caravan of police cars, until a very tragic ending occurred. And I, I went to my friends Hal Barwood, Matthew Robbins, who were friends, who I was, that, who were the guys that introduced me to George Lucas in the sixties. And they wrote a brilliant script based on the story that I sketched out. And I went and tried to sell it to the studio like the script. And they said, if you can get a movie star, we'll make this movie and let you direct it. And then I went through the business of being, of being said no to by many movie stars. Many, many people turned me down.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  But the one person who didn't say no was Goldie Hawn. And Goldie Hawn loved the script, loved the character of Lou Jean Poplin. And she said yes. And had she said yes, that would not have been made, that movie. She got that movie made.

• 46:56Michelle Obama?

  Ah, yeah. You, you know, we were talking the other day about casting, right? And you said something like,

• 47:06Michelle Obama?

  You know, the right cast member always kind of shows up because there's always, there's the timing issue, you know, you, you, you have an idea, you have somebody that you write for, you think it's that, that actor, and then they're not available.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 47:23Michelle Obama?

  So you, you, what, do you remember we talked about this?

• 47:27Speaker 00

  I do, and I, and I think one of the things I was saying is, the actor you thought you wanted, who was the only actor you could imagine playing that role, was not the actor you eventually found out you were wrong about in the first place, because the person you wound up with was the only person destined to play that character.

• 47:43Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  And I really, truly believe that, because I've had many experiences with actors saying no to me, but the person that eventually said yes, I cannot imagine anybody else playing that role. And, and I just think that's a little bit of determinism versus free will. We can get into those conversations, I'm not sure we should, but, but that's the whole thing where I sometimes believe that there are strings connecting everything, and the strings have already been laid out before we get to that juncture, right in the road, where we, where we think we're making a decision, when in fact, the decision's already been made for us.

• 48:18Michelle Obama?

  What's been the biggest casting karma that, that happened that you can remember?

• 48:25Speaker 00

  Oh my, there's been, there's been a number of them.

• 48:27Craig Robinson?

  Harrison Ford, was, did you think of him?

• 48:31Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 48:32Michelle Obama?

  Okay, Craig, so was Harrison, he wasn't the first?

• 48:35Speaker 00

  What happened was, George and I had, had interviewed a lot of people to play Indiana Jones, and we tested them, and they came to George's, he had a small office in Los Angeles, across from Universal, and we tested a lot of actresses for Marion Raven, and a lot of actors, especially for Indiana Jones. And that was going to be whether we made the movie or not, and we both discovered and decided that Tom Selleck should play Indiana Jones. He came in, and he, and he read for the part.

• 49:04Michelle Obama?

  No diss to Tom Selleck, but just can't.

• 49:07Speaker 00

  Oh, he was good, his, his test was good. I loved it.

• 49:10Michelle Obama?

  Would he have had a mustache?

• 49:12Speaker 00

  You know, he wouldn't have, I wouldn't have let him have a mustache. Maybe if the films were as successful, he could have demanded the mustache later, and then George and I would have given it to Tom. But, but there's where the strings of destiny didn't, didn't cross with Tom. We wanted Tom, we gave Tom the part. And then he had, which we didn't realize, an outstanding contract with CBS Network to do Magnum P.I.

• 49:36Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  And Bob Daley, a very close friend of mine, but I didn't know Bob at the time. When they heard we wanted Tom, they immediately put Magnum P.I. into production, preempting Tom from being in Indiana Jones.

• 49:52Michelle Obama?

  And now Tom is mad at everyone.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  Tom's a great guy. I adore him. And so what happened was George, at the same time, asked me to come look at a rough cut of the second Star Wars movie, Empire Strikes Back. So I went up to Northern California, went to the screening room, sat in a room, saw Empire Strikes Back, which I adored.

• 50:15Craig Robinson?

  Yeah.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  And when the screening was over, we were talking about the movie with about thirty or forty people, and I pulled George aside. And I said, "George, what about that guy who plays Han Solo to play Indiana Jones?" And George looked at me funny and said, "Well, but he's Han Solo." I said, "I know, but, you know, John Wayne might have been in the same Western forever, but he played different characters." I said, "You know, he could do more than one role." And George said, "Okay, but I've got my mind on other things." He was working with Irving Kershner to make this movie. So about a week later, he called me up and said, "I've sent the script to Harrison." So on his own, he had a few days to think about it.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Without telling me, he sends the script to Harrison. And Harrison reads the script and he wants to do it. That was how it all began.

• 51:05Michelle Obama?

  Man.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:07Michelle Obama?

  Man, oh, man. I wanted to ask you about working with kids. I mean, you know, probably because of your childhood, you know, there's always, you know, a child, an innocent, in the midst of it all, who's trying to work their way through. But that means that, you know, you have worked with... A long list of child actors throughout your career. And I watched War of the Worlds a couple of weeks ago.

• 51:51Michelle Obama?

  And Dakota Fanning in that movie, I mean, she was, she was, she helped to make that movie.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:59Michelle Obama?

  You know, and I, I just keep wondering with like a Drew Barrymore, there's so little. You know, how do you get these amazing performances consistently out of these little people?

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Well, a child actor is like an adult actor without all the bad habits.

• 52:17Craig Robinson?

  Now, now you sound like Mary Robert.

• 52:21Craig Robinson?

  Now you sound like, like my mom.

• 52:23Speaker 00

  Maybe she's, she's with me now, she's gone from you to you to me now. Yeah, you know, there, there is such an innocence and there is such, there's such an ability. And especially if you don't talk down to kids, you don't talk down to children who are acting in your movie. But you treat them, the way my mom raised me and my three sisters, she treated us like peers. Not, my mom is more a peer than a parent. And I, and I want to be a peer to a young person, not a parent slash director to that young person.

• 52:56Craig Robinson?

  You treat them like little adults.

• 52:58Speaker 00

  And you, and you, and you'd let them tell you what they'd like to do in a real life situation. Because, because young people are able to imagine better than older veteran actors. They're able to really teleport themselves into a real situation, even though it's all made up by writers and the lighting and the special effects, to them it's reality. And sometimes they've got the best ideas of where to take their, their, their little personalities. And so I've just been really open with young actors and I rely on them to help form their own characters without me giving a lot of direction. With Drew Barrymore, I took some of her improvisations because she would just talk to E.T. all the time. She'd stand around as a six year old talking to E.T. when he wasn't being operated by the puppeteers.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  And they would, she'd just be talking to them and telling E.T. about her punk band that she had and, and the rock, the rock, rock and roll tour she wanted to be on when the movie was over and her other aspirations. And she'd make up stuff that I would use in the movie.

• 54:00Speaker 00

  You know, there was a scene around a dinner table where Elliot and Michael are kind of not getting along and Michael's teasing Elliot about, because Elliot says, "I really saw this creature, he was really in the woodshed out behind the house." And Michael says, "Well, maybe it was alligators in the sewers." And I saw that every time he said it in the rehearsal, Drew was mouthing, "Alligators in the sewers." So after a while, Drew, everything he says, just repeat what he says, because you want, you know you want to do that, don't you? You're doing it right now. So every time she repeated what Michael was saying, that's true.

• 54:39Michelle Obama?

  And you kept that in.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  I kept all that stuff in. She walked over to E.T. one day in a scene, and she said, "I don't like his feet." And she meant it, and so I left that in the movie. So with young people sometimes, and also with actors, with adult actors, you let them help you find their characters, because we can't do it all. I'm not an actor. I know what I think I want, but when an actor lands on something, it convinces me that, oh, I want that instead. You got to collaborate. It's a, this business, this, it's a collaborative medium.

• 55:12Michelle Obama?

  Well, that gets us to the industry. And we've talked about this a lot. I mean, you're, you know, we said earlier, Barack threatened to watch your movie on his iPhone. I know you have deep beliefs about what movies mean, what they should be. You believe in theaters, you believe in the entire experience, yet the industry feels like it's moving slowly away from that, that, that view of, of movies. What are your thoughts and feelings on this? What do you think, where do you think the industry is going?

• 55:50Speaker 00

  Well, I, I think certainly, the industry, I was born in the age of TV. So when I was born, television, television sets were being sold for the first time. I was born at the end of 46.

• 56:05Michelle Obama?

  There are going to be a lot of listeners going, "Wow."

• 56:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Long time ago.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  Long time ago. But there were a lot of, you know, Sylvania and GE black and white TV sets were being made then. And so I was, I was the first, my, the greatest, not too great, my dad was the greatest generation. We're the baby boomers and we were born in front of a black and white television screen. Yet, we went out to the movies because they were in color and the screens were super duper big. And we got in and it was exciting and it's kind of dangerous. You go, you go to a room and you sit in the dark and you're watching a movie. And I fell in love with movies, not by, by watching movies on television. I fell in love with the movies by being at the movies. The old term movie going. That was something that we just took for granted.

• 56:53Speaker 00

  And then, and then, but there's always been this competition, this kind of, I guess you called a, a sport between those that produce television series and those that make motion pictures.

• 57:09Speaker 00

  And then along came something back in the sixties called Saturday Night at the Movies.

• 57:14Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah.

• 57:14Speaker 00

  And they would take recent movies that had only been out of circulation, maybe five to seven years, and they put them on TV. And the, the networks are trying to lure people away from weekend, going to the movies on weekends, which are big.

• 57:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  You know, Friday, Saturday and Friday and Saturday are the biggest movie, movie days or movie nights. So they were already starting to chip away at movie goers by putting on Saturday Night at the Movies, which was successful, got a lot of ratings points. Meant people were not watching movies, they were watching some old film on television because it was unique to be sold a semi, semi-current film to, to be viewed in your homes. And all of a sudden, there was a, there was, there was competition for filling seats. The seats that I was interested in watching movies at were were seats in the mezzanine or the orchestra or even the balcony.

• 58:11Speaker 00

  That's where I wanted to watch my movies, not sitting on the divan or in the beanbag or in bed.

• 58:17Michelle Obama?

  Right.

• 58:18Speaker 00

  But I wanted to go out. Adventures adventures and movie going. And that was something that was very important. And my generation grew up that way and my generation loves it. But my kids have the opposite view.

• 58:30Craig Robinson?

  Uh huh.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  My kids want the convenience of being able to see a story being told in any pop on any platform that's available, including an iPhone. They don't care. But when a certain movie does come out where the iPhone experience or the streaming experience is denied to them because the studios believe this film should be seen in movie theaters. And when the studios are brave enough to say, we're not going to go back to the three week or 17 day window like Donald Langley at Universal just did. All Universal films now have a 45 day window before they go on, you know, the pay channels and eventually to their streaming platform.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  And this is very, very important that studios give an audience an opportunity to find these films, not by saying it's only going to be in a theater for two weeks because then we get to qualify for awards later in the year. But it's going to be in a theater as long as people attend that movie. And that's the battle we're fighting and COVID really hurt us. Really hurt movie going because people who couldn't go out to the movies got very accustomed to watching movies at home. And the studios started taking movies away from their release dates and putting them directly on HBO or directly on, you know, pay per view.

• 59:48Michelle Obama?

  How does that affect the viewers, do you think? Do you think we're missing out on something? The experience of watching something as a community?

• 59:59Speaker 00

  When you watch a movie at home, there's nothing wrong with it. I watch a lot of movies at home, but it's not an event to stay home and watch a movie in your living room or in your family room, in your bedroom. It's an event to make a night of it or a day of it, an afternoon of it, even a morning of it and go out to the movies. That's an event and it makes it more exciting. And when you see a movie in a theater, you're also being surrounded by people who are strangers. And there are people in that theater that you know do not believe what you believe. You know, there are people in that theater who actually believe in the opposite of your core beliefs about democracy, about this country, about the world, about our needs, about what we need.

• 1:00:44Speaker 00

  But in a movie theater, everybody is tuned in to the story being told to them from the screen. And for one moment, we are in communion and we are in agreement and we are a community. We're a community of strangers watching something that makes us laugh and cry and sing out and want to share those feelings. And often you go into a lobby and you're still buzzing about the movie and you talk to strangers. You're not talking about the stuff that divides you. You're talking about what just united you. And that is the great thing that movies build community. And we need community now more than ever.

• 1:01:21Michelle Obama?

  Desperately.

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  And movies can do that if studios will continue to allow movies to play for longer periods of time before they go on television.

• 1:01:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:32Craig Robinson?

  You know what I miss? I was thinking about when you're talking about community and going to the movies because we didn't go to the movies like you did. We went to the drive-in because it was more economical.

• 1:01:43Speaker 00

  Me too.

• 1:01:44Craig Robinson?

  Wasn't that great?

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  I love drive-in. Arizona is full of drive-ins.

• 1:01:47Craig Robinson?

  Oh, my God. I was hoping that with COVID, drive-ins would make a comeback, but...

• 1:01:53Michelle Obama?

  Like ventriloquism?

• 1:01:54Craig Robinson?

  Yes, like ventriloquism. This is a big joke because I think ventriloquism is an underutilized art form. And now I haven't seen Steven Spielberg laugh this hard in all of the times that we have been together.

• 1:02:11Michelle Obama?

  He has a ventriloquist dummy that the team gave him.

• 1:02:15Craig Robinson?

  They gave it for a president. Name is Woodrow and I'm gonna be practicing with him because I'm gonna learn how to be a ventriloquist. I'm not too old.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

  Okay. I'll video it.

• 1:02:28Craig Robinson?

  I'm holding to it.

• 1:02:30Michelle Obama?

  So how do you balance, you know, all that you have to be to make these films? And the, you know, the, the level of yourself that you have to pour into each project? And not just the project as a whole, but the cast and the kids and the, with your real life?

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Michelle Obama?

  Um, because you've got a big real life. Um, y'all got a bunch of kids.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Seven kids, six grandkids. That's a lot.

• 1:03:03Michelle Obama?

  It's a lot. Requires a big boat.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Well, they keep me relevant. I'll tell you, they keep me, they keep me current to the times, my kids do.

• 1:03:11Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. How, how, what have been some of the challenges for you as a dad? Being you, um.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  Getting home for dinner.

• 1:03:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  You know, one of the biggest challenges is just running out of excuses why I can't get home for dinner. Because it, because it, it's my loss. It's their loss, but it's also my loss. When we formed DreamWorks, Kate said, the only way I'm really gonna say this is okay with me is if you get home every night by six, 5:45 is better and have dinner with the family. And don't go to work at six or seven. Unless you're shooting, you can get up at 5:30, which we usually do. Well, you're not, when you're running a studio, you gotta have like a nine to five job. And I made that a condition of my involvement with David and Jeffrey. And I, I said, I'm not doing this company unless this for me is gonna be a nine to five job. Because I, it's gonna be a real time drain for me and I need to be with my family.

• 1:04:04Speaker 00

  They understand, a kid understands when I'm making a movie, that goes out the window. I don't have control over that, over that schedule anymore. So what Kate did was take all the kids, whenever I went abroad to make a film, and we live abroad. We lived in Hungary for four months making Munich. We lived five months in Krakow, Krakow, Poland, making Schindler's List. We lived in London making Saving Private Ryan and Ireland. I mean, and with all the kids went to school there. They were, they were, they were homeschooled there. And then at the end of the movie, they'd all get back to their schools in Los Angeles. And so, so if, if Kate hadn't been, uh, hadn't agreed to a, a, a mobile home life.

• 1:04:45Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:45Speaker 00

  While I was in the physical, with the whole family.

• 1:04:48Michelle Obama?

  And it wasn't, you, you, that, yours weren't spread out. I mean, they sort of were and then they weren't.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:04:54Michelle Obama?

  Cause she had a bunch of little kids in diapers doing this.

• 1:04:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:04:58Michelle Obama?

  Stuff.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  Look, McKellen and Destry are only eight months apart, you know, I mean, it's crazy. And it wasn't diapers, and it was really hard for her, and it was not easy for her. And I'm off doing what I love, and she's home doing what she loves too, but kinda wishes I was there doing it with her. That's the thing, that's the compromise we make. Look, I read your book and Barack's book, so I know all about what it was like for eight years as first lady in that White House. Well, it's hard.

• 1:05:29Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Craig Robinson?

  Is there an idea or a movie that you'd still like to make that you haven't?

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  I really, and I've said this ad nauseam, I wanna make a western. I've never really made a western since I was in, I made it eight millimeter and there's a little western I shot in. But I wanna make a western, and I love them, I've seen them all, and I'm working on one right now. I don't know when it's gonna go, but I have something going right now.

• 1:05:58Craig Robinson?

  Nice.

• 1:05:58Michelle Obama?

  Is it John Wayne like, is it Giant, which you introduced me to?

• 1:06:02Speaker 00

  I showed you Giant for the first time.

• 1:06:05Craig Robinson?

  I'm surprised you got her to watch something that old.

• 1:06:07Michelle Obama?

  I loved it. At first I was like, okay, we're watching Giant, but it was great, it was really great.

• 1:06:15Speaker 00

  Because it stands the test of time, as all George Stevens films do. But the western, the premise, it hasn't been decided yet, so it is just not gonna be filled with western tropes and stereotypes. It's not gonna be that at all. It's gotta be something new. I've seen so many westerns, and you know, the great thing about the western genre, it was supplanted by science fiction. So when Stanley Kubrick made 2001: A Space Odyssey, that was really the death of the western.

• 1:06:42Craig Robinson?

  Really?

• 1:06:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was the turning point. That was the turning point. The western went away, stayed on television for a number of years. But when it left movie theaters, it started coming out on television.

• 1:06:53Craig Robinson?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Rawhide.

• 1:06:54Craig Robinson?

  That's what I was around.

• 1:06:56Speaker 00

  And the Rifleman, you know, and I mean, High Chaparral, I mean, the Virginian, one after the other. And that, when science fiction supplanted the western. So every time I see a Marvel movie, or I see a fantasy film. I say, and there's, there's, there's a dearth of that. I mean, there's a plethora of that right now, everywhere. When I see those series, those brands, those big IPs, I say, well, that's where the Western went. It, it, it basically dinosaurs turned into birds and Westerns turned into superhero and fantasy films.

• 1:07:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:30Speaker 00

  And, and that's where we're, we're at right now. So I kind of want to make a Western that isn't a bird, but is something a little different. A bird of a different feather. Not quite sure what that is yet, but I'm working with a really good partner on this right now, trying to concoct one.

• 1:07:47Michelle Obama?

  Well.

• 1:07:49Craig Robinson?

  Oh, the listener question. We better.

• 1:07:51Michelle Obama?

  Oh, yeah. But we gotta leave a little time for the listener question. One of the things on IMO we like to do, Stephen, is help out people and give some, some good advice. So we take questions from our listener viewers.

• 1:08:05Craig Robinson?

  And this one's from Anna, who's in Colorado.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  Dear Michelle and Craig, I'm 24 years old and I am a struggling aspiring writer in the entertainment industry. I have a low paying job that pays my rent, but not much else. I worked hard to go to film school and try to get a foot in. I'm from a small town and have no connections, so I try to make all of the right choices, but I haven't gone anywhere. It feels like every door is slammed shut before I can even knock. There's nothing I've wanted more than to be a famous writer, but I don't have the means to take the financial risk to support those dreams. I'm also incredibly worried that AI will take over the entry level positions that could help me get my foot in the door, or will mean that fewer shows and films will all get made, period. It feels like the latter was pulled up before my generation could make it to the party. At what point do I

• 1:08:53Speaker 04

  stop dreaming and pivot career path or even career dreams? Thanks.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  Wow. Well, Anna, you, here's the thing, the big test for you. Is will you persevere?

• 1:09:07Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:08Speaker 00

  That's the key word is perseverance. Not ever giving up. Continuing to do what has not worked for you so far. Continuing to write. Keep writing. And the other thing you can do, which is great, is you can post some of your ideas. You can go on Instagram, you can go on YouTube, you can post some of your things if you have a, if you're a writer, you're not talking about being a director. But you may take something you've written in short form. Find somebody you went to school with who wants to be a director and put a little film together and use your, use your device, use your camera on your phone.

• 1:09:45Michelle Obama?

  Take advantage of the technology.

• 1:09:46Speaker 00

  Take advantage of the technology and to get your voice because where there's a, it's a terrible cliche to say this, but where there is a will, there's a way. And where there is a passion, there is an even better way. And if you have that passion through perseverance, you'll get to where you need to be.

• 1:10:03Michelle Obama?

  Hmm, yeah, yeah. What about the economic piece too? I mean, the starving writer, the starving artist. It's, you know, expensive to be in this town, LA, or to be in New York, or to be where, where the industry is.

• 1:10:20Speaker 00

  Well, you have to, you have to hold a job that's going to, you know, meet your immediate needs. And especially if you have a family, you have a responsibility to doing the work that's going to provide for your family. But at the same time, your passion can still be on that second track. We talked about the different compartmentalized. You can, you can have, you can have it all, but you have to be able to have one to be able just to subsist. And then you, you can, while you're working on the other.

• 1:10:48Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:49Speaker 00

  The impossible dream.

• 1:10:50Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. I, I've had this conversation with my eldest daughter, Stephen, as you know, is an aspiring director filmmaker. And in these times, she has wondered aloud, you know, when there's so much going on in the world, so many problems that we face, whether it's the environment or saving our democracy, you know, sometimes she feels like, you know. Should I be writing stories and, you know, thinking about making movies? I mean, should I be out on protest lines? Should I be doing more? Is this the same thing? Is this the right field? The thing I tell her is, oh, my God, these are the times that we need stories.

• 1:11:34Michelle Obama?

  You know, we need storytellers. And we need storytellers of all backgrounds. So what I would say to Anna is, definitely don't give up. Because we can't cede the arena to the wealthy few who can afford to persevere. Because we need all these perspectives. You know? I mean, I tell my daughter, we need to hear from young black writers. You know? So it's like, you know, the voices have to be diverse or else we lose the full story. We don't get the full truth if we're only hearing one person's perspective. And as a woman, as a young woman in this art, in this art form,

• 1:12:19Michelle Obama?

  it's like I desperately want Anna to stay the course. The one thing I like when you talk to young people about careers, first of all, you went to film school. Oh, did you?

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

  No, I didn't.

• 1:12:34Michelle Obama?

  You did not go to film school.

• 1:12:35Speaker 00

  I tried to go to film school, but USC wouldn't let me in.

• 1:12:38Michelle Obama?

  Oh, that's right. That's right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to bring that up, Stephen.

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  My grades were so bad for making, for making my little eight millimeter, 16 millimeter movies that I got accepted at Long Beach. I liked Long Beach. I went only, I was only there for two years, but I wanted to go to SC.

• 1:12:53Michelle Obama?

  Mm-hmm, yeah. But you tell young people, or what you've shown in your career is that you just love making stuff. And it was like you weren't precious or particular about what you made. Can you talk a bit about that?

• 1:13:08Speaker 00

  You know, I started by writing as well. Writing is one of the best ways to break into the business. One of the hardest things to do is get somebody to read what you've written. Because there's all kinds of, you know, there's all kinds of lawsuits called copyright infringement. Producers say, well, if it's not registered, it doesn't come from an agent that I know, I can't read it. It's unsolicited material. And that's the struggle that young writers have in getting their stuff read. But the best, the thing that I did, I remember watching TV and watching an episode of Combat. And writing my own Combat episode and sending it to Norman Felton, who was the producer of Combat. And he was so impressed by the script, he actually read it, he probably shouldn't have.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  But he read the script and he had me come into his office and I got a chance to meet this big producer of a television series. And he told me that, that he took one look at me, I looked like I was 13 when I was maybe 18, 19. He said, well, we're not gonna buy this, but it's really, really well-written and keep writing. He just gave me about a five-minute really good pep talk, which was wonderful of him. But most of the scripts that I wrote on spec were television shows. I wrote, I wrote two Mission Impossible, uh, episodes, because I love Mission Impossible. And the man for, I'm not Mission Impossible, I'm sorry, The Man from Uncle. I wrote two episodes for that.

• 1:14:24Craig Robinson?

  Oh, I watched that.

• 1:14:26Speaker 00

  Love The Man from Uncle. I love that series so much.

• 1:14:29Craig Robinson?

  Napoleon Solo and Ilya Kiryakin. Oh my God, David McCallum.

• 1:14:33Speaker 00

  David McCallum, exactly.

• 1:14:34Craig Robinson?

  I wanted to be in Uncle.

• 1:14:38Craig Robinson?

  When I was younger, I wanted to be in that group.

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  And I wanted to be Robert Vaughn.

• 1:14:44Speaker 00

  But, but I also wrote that, so sometimes it, it may seem futile to write something you're not gonna sell, but, but that's the greatest way to understand how to structure a story. First of all, if you wanna structure a story, it's gotta be about something. So your first stop is, what do I wanna say? What, what, what in this world do I want to say that somebody might listen to? Do I have anything to say? And if I have something to say that's important, maybe, maybe I can say it on paper first. You can't write anything until you have something to say. It doesn't have to be the word according to blank, blank, blank. It simply has to be important to you. And, uh, and then you, then you become somebody that is, comes from a place of passion. A place of, a place of, uh...

• 1:15:29Speaker 00

  Because you want to communicate something that's important to you.

• 1:15:31Michelle Obama?

  How are you thinking about AI in this? I mean, you've you've done every.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  I made a movie called AI.

• 1:15:38Michelle Obama?

  I know, I watched that last month. That was, I hadn't seen AI before. I mean, it's like, how, what crystal ball do you have, Stephen? What scary crystal ball are you living in? I mean, how do you, how do you foresee this stuff?

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Well, I, I'm, I'm kind of withholding judgment on AI.

• 1:16:01Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Speaker 00

  Until I see really how it is being used. I think it's even being used more frequently and better currently. I'm reading in China that China is ahead of where we are right now in its use of AI. But how it's being used, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not certain about that. But what I do know about AI is that I'm sure it, it, it can, it's a tool that can create and find solutions to medical issues.

• 1:16:35Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Speaker 00

  You know, in finding solutions to, to how to put together a curriculum and how to get young people really more stimulated and interested in the lessons that they're being taught in elementary and junior and high school and, and, and so on. What, where I, where I don't love AI is where it takes a, a position or there's an empty chair at a writer's table.

• 1:17:00Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  And there's six writers and there's an empty chair and there's a, there's a, there's a computer in front of the empty chair and it is the seventh writer at the. I, I'm not willing to, to substitute the, you know, because I don't really believe.

• 1:17:20Speaker 00

  Incentive, incent, incentience. I don't believe that there's any substitute. There's any substitute for the soul.

• 1:17:27Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:28Speaker 00

  I don't think that is a, that is an algorithm.

• 1:17:31Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  That is inventable, if that's, if there is such a word. Um, and I think that the difference between a computer that's smarter than people.

• 1:17:40Michelle Obama?

  Hmm.

• 1:17:40Speaker 00

  But a computer that thinks it's, it feels more than we feel.

• 1:17:44Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  Is anathema to the way I was raised.

• 1:17:47Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:47Speaker 00

  And, and, and how I'll practice my own trade of producing and directing in the future. I don't want AI involved in that way. If AI wants to help me find locations.

• 1:17:59Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  That's great. Save us all a lot of legwork.

• 1:18:01Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:02Speaker 00

  But don't tell me that I don't have the right antagonist in this movie. Don't tell me how to write my dialogue for this character. Don't tell me where the camera has got to go.

• 1:18:12Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:13Speaker 00

  And also, don't tell me what the set should look like unless AI is simply a tool in a large tool chest of the production designer. And just one of many tools the production designer uses. So their own impulses are what is going to determine how good my sets look.

• 1:18:30Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 00

  Use AI as a tool, but do not use AI as the final word on anything creative. That's where I, I draw the line.

• 1:18:37Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm. I know that you have a house full of creatives.

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  I do. I have filmmakers and actors and actresses and.

• 1:18:43Michelle Obama?

  What do you tell your, your, your kids?

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  I, I, I tell my kids to follow their hearts because their hearts are going to tell them, their, their hearts are going to pave the roads for them more than anything else. Just follow your hearts. If this, if, I have, I have kids that do more than one thing, which is great. They just, I, I, I have kids that act and paint.

• 1:19:02Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:02Speaker 00

  And they write and they perform and they sing.

• 1:19:05Michelle Obama?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  And, and they have imaginations. They've all got great imaginations. And, um, and I just say, you know, hey, you know, if, if you, if you have the urge, you have to follow that urge. You have to let it lead you.

• 1:19:20Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:21Speaker 00

  And who knows where it's going to take you.

• 1:19:23Michelle Obama?

  Well, your kids are amazing and I've had the privilege and the honor to spend time with them. They are creative and interesting and.

• 1:19:32Michelle Obama?

  Humble.

• 1:19:33Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:35Michelle Obama?

  Charismatic, all of that. And that's a tribute to both you and Kate.

• 1:19:41Speaker 00

  My kids are making their own names.

• 1:19:43Michelle Obama?

  They are.

• 1:19:43Speaker 00

  I'm proud of them for that. They are making their own names.

• 1:19:46Michelle Obama?

  They are.

• 1:19:46Craig Robinson?

  That's great.

• 1:19:47Michelle Obama?

  They are. Well, Anna, Craig, did you have anything to add to?

• 1:19:51Craig Robinson?

  No, I don't, I did, I think we've, we've covered enough for Anna. But this has been really neat, Steven.

• 1:19:58Michelle Obama?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:19:59Michelle Obama?

  Anna gets some advice from Steven Spielberg.

• 1:20:02Craig Robinson?

  How about that?

• 1:20:02Michelle Obama?

  It's like, whoa.

• 1:20:03Craig Robinson?

  How about that?

• 1:20:04Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Steven, I love you to death.

• 1:20:07Speaker 00

  I love you to death, too.

• 1:20:08Michelle Obama?

  Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not trying to suck up so I can see Disclosure Day before it's...

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  I gotta show it to you sooner than later.

• 1:20:17Craig Robinson?

  That would really start something if you saw it before Barack saw it.

• 1:20:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:21Craig Robinson?

  Not that, not that I'm trying to start stuff, but that would really start something.

• 1:20:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, he may never let me back into the high ground again.

• 1:20:32Michelle Obama?

  Well, I, I, I know it's gonna be an amazing movie. The buzz has been good. You've got an amazing cast. And it is so timely, you know? Everybody's asking and the question's already been answered. But Barack Obama, he, what, what it, you know, is like, what's the answer? Is there, is there life out there?

• 1:20:57Speaker 00

  Well, Barack was right when he said that he believes there is light, life out there. I think it's mathematically and scientifically impossible that there isn't life out there.

• 1:21:07Michelle Obama?

  That's right.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  Where there aren't advanced civilizations out there. The big question remains, have they ever come here? Or the other question is, are they here now? And that's the question that my movie tries to answer.

• 1:21:22Michelle Obama?

  Stay tuned.

• 1:21:23Craig Robinson?

  Can't wait. Can't wait.

• 1:21:26Michelle Obama?

  This one I may go to the theater for.

• 1:21:28Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:21:29Craig Robinson?

  Oh, you better.

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  This is for the, this is, this is for a big audience. This is for big audiences.

• 1:21:33Michelle Obama?

  You hear that, people? Don't watch it on your iPhone.

• 1:21:35Speaker 00

  No, this one's for big audiences.

• 1:21:36Michelle Obama?

  Barack Obama is just being petty.

• 1:21:41Michelle Obama?

  Go to the theaters right away. Steven, thank you again for being here.

• 1:21:46Speaker 00

  Thank you, Michelle. Thank you, Craig.

• 1:21:48Michelle Obama?

  I hope it wasn't too painful.

• 1:21:48Craig Robinson?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:21:49Michelle Obama?

  You did good.

• 1:21:49Speaker 00

  This was a pleasure. This was almost like sitting around the living room.

• 1:21:54Michelle Obama?

  Yay.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  It was. It was.

• 1:21:56Craig Robinson?

  Good. That's what we aim for.

• 1:22:18Craig Robinson?

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• 1:23:02Craig Robinson?

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