The 'Scandalous' Life of Marie Antoinette

They called her a treasonous nymphomaniac who bankrupted France for diamonds and cake. The revolutionaries didn't just execute Marie Antoinette - they waged a brutal smear campaign to ruin her first. But what if almost everything you’ve been told about 'Madame Déficit' is a lie? From fake royal sex scandals to a black-market diamond heist that brought down a monarchy, this is how a teenage Austrian princess became the most hated woman in Europe. Joining Dan is Kate Williams, author of 'Regina: A New History of Women and Power’. Produced by James Hickmann and edited my Natasha Hughes. We need your help! Let us know what you want from Dan Snow's History Hit by filling in our anonymous survey here: https://forms.gle/PvgayWLkWGjYT4St6 Dan Snow's History Hit is now available on YouTube! Check it out at: https://www.youtube.com/@DSHHPodcast Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Dan Snow's History Hit is a History Hit podcast. History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

  Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard III. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:33Speaker 01

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Ah, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table's been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close.

• 0:49Speaker 02

  Time to kick end of year into high gear.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts and more.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 1:13Dan Snow?

  Glamorous, extravagant, scandalous, deeply misunderstood. Marie Antoinette became the ultimate symbol of the French Revolution. The poster girl for the excessive monarchy that feasted while the country starved, who draped themselves in jewels as people died in the streets. At one point, she was the most hated woman in France, the woman they blamed for it all. But did she deserve it? Marie Antoinette, she was a teenage Archduchess. She was a princess from Vienna, sent across Europe as a political bargaining chip to secure an alliance between rival empires.

• 1:51Dan Snow?

  In 1770, 14 years old, she entered the suffocating spectacle of Versailles, a court of ritual, a court of surveillance, where every gesture was judged and every weakness exploited. As the French monarchy began to fracture under crises that were totally out of her control, the queen became a scapegoat, a scapegoat for the nation that was desperate for someone to blame. As we love to do on this show, we are going to be sorting out the truth from the myth. There is no one better to do this than Professor Kate Williams, historian broadcaster, author of a new book called Regina, A New History of Women and Power. We're very lucky to have her on the pod once again. From the halls of Versailles, to the prison cells of revolutionary Paris, right, in

• 2:33Dan Snow?

  fact, to here, our podcast studio and History HQ, this is the story of Marie Antoinette.

• 2:44Dan Snow?

  Kate Williams, good to have you back on the pod.

• 2:45Speaker 03

  Thrilled to be here, thrilled to be here.

• 2:47Dan Snow?

  I mean, what a start. We're going to talk about Marie Antoinette. The key thing is, not French, Austrian. That's kind of essential to understanding her in many ways, right?

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Not French, Austrian, the Austrian princess. And she was criticised for that at the time, so she's not French. I'd say her spending didn't break Versailles, and she never said, let them eat cake. So there are some myths to overturn.

• 3:07Dan Snow?

  We're going to puncture myths left, right and centre. But the Austrian-ness is fascinating. Her mum, Maria Theresa, actually one of the great figures of the 18th century in her own right, like two seconds on Maria Theresa, held an empire together against Frederick the Great, who's pretty hardcore, whilst having children all over the place in a man's world. Extraordinary woman.

• 3:25Speaker 03

  Extraordinary woman. I mean, Marie Antoinette is her 15th child.

• 3:28Dan Snow?

  No.

• 3:29Speaker 03

  And she's last child, 15, and she's really up doing work on her papers while she's pretty much in labour with Marie Antoinette and gives birth to this small but perfectly healthy Archduchess. And when her husband died, who's a pretty benign figure, when her husband dies, when Marie Antoinette is a young girl, really, Maria Theresa then becomes the king. She then becomes the king. She rules with an iron fist. She rules for her son. I mean, she is one of the most powerful women really in history in Europe.

• 3:59Dan Snow?

  Would Marie Antoinette have had much access to her mum, do you think, in those early years?

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Oh, Marie Antoinette's mother was a control woman, a helicopter mother.

• 4:09Dan Snow?

  Oh, really?

• 4:10Speaker 03

  We've got a helicopter parent there. There's none of this gentle parenting with Maria Theresa. She was intent on Marie Antoinette. And there's a rather tragic moment, well, there's a series of moments, when smallpox sweeps the family. So what happens when you're the 15th Archduchess? You think you're probably a long way away from a major marriage chessboard moment. But in fact, two sisters get killed by smallpox. Another one survives, but her looks are deemed so bad that she has to go and be a nun and becomes a very powerful abess. But Marie Antoinette then moves up the sort of table of, and becomes a powerful piece on the chessboard.

• 4:50Speaker 03

  And that's why her mother becomes more intent on making her into this perfect princess. She's got to, she's got to be educated. She has music. There's a combination between having a rather fun childhood. They've got a menagerie with a rhino and there's Mozart comes and tells Marie Antoinette, perhaps apocryphal this story, he tells Marie Antoinette he wants to marry her and they have a rather lovely life with ice skating. But also Maria Theresa sees her daughters in particular as, a bit like Queen Victoria did, these are her way of creating alliances across Europe and you are going to toe the line. And Marie Antoinette, it's made very clear to her early on, you are born to obey.

• 5:28Dan Snow?

  And the Austrians have been fighting the French for longer than anyone can remember. But, and traditionally, they've sort of, Europe's been a sort of contest between those two. But now you've got the Prussians on the scene, you've got these Germans rising in the north, and you get this extraordinary revolution, don't you? This absolute 180. France and Austria do the unthinkable, prompted by this dangerous new player. They do the unthinkable and they form an alliance. And that's, and Marie Antoinette's key to that, I suppose.

• 5:56Speaker 03

  They form an alliance. And how do you seal this deal? With a princess. So Archduchess Marie Antoinette, she is going to be betrothed to the Dauphin, to the future King of France. They had thought about it for her sister, Maria Carolina, but because of the death of the elder sister, Maria Carolina goes off to marry the King of Naples and later has all kinds of drama in her life, including Emma Hamilton and Nelson. And Marie Antoinette, she's destined for the French court. And Marie Antoinette, her job when she's sent off to the French court, when she's only 14, after being married by proxy, her mother says, oh, do so much for the French that they say I've sent them an angel. It's a lot of weight on a teenager's shoulder.

• 6:37Dan Snow?

  Yeah, so first, a couple of, so she is a teenager still?

• 6:40Speaker 03

  She's a teenager still. She's, she's, is married by proxy, then she's sent over at 14 to conduct the marriage.

• 6:47Dan Snow?

  Any saying it herself? No, she did, this is just, you're told what you're going to be doing.

• 6:51Speaker 03

  Zero say, zero say. You are there to obey. You are there to create glory for Austria. And, you know, really with Marie Antoinette, you see this problem for the consort. On one hand, she's supposed to give everything to France. On the other hand, she's supposed to advocate for the interests of her home country.

• 7:09Dan Snow?

  The ultimate diplomat.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  The ultimate diplomat. So you've got a split personality.

• 7:13Dan Snow?

  So there's still quite a lot of agency here. It's like you're not just a piece on the chessboard to go and join the French. You are, you have to work hard. You, you're, the expectation is you are going to, you're a politician in your own right, you are going to, you are going to represent Austria, you're going to make France great, you're going to embody this new alliance.

• 7:30Speaker 03

  And you do that at 14. You have to make Austria great, secure the alliance. And it's so symbolic, Marie Antoinette's journey to France, because she sets off in this most wonderful trousseau, fabulous outfits, gorgeous gowns, they're all wondrous. There's this fantastic exhibition at the V and A of what could have been many of Marie Antoinette's gowns. And they are teeny tiny, and that's probably because these are, these are children wearing them, Marie Antoinette is so young. So she sets off in this wonderful trousseau. And then when she gets to the border, what happens is every piece of Austrian dress and her jewellery is taken off her. She's totally undressed by the ladies, by the French ladies, and then redressed in

• 8:13Speaker 03

  French dress, so that nothing remains of the Austrian clothing, not even underwear, because that is a foreign court. And even her pug mops is taken off her in Marie Antoinette, it's very sad, but that's just symbolic. The pug is actually sent later to Versailles.

• 8:29Dan Snow?

  Okay, good, thank you for that.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  Then Marie Antoinette then says, I don't want to hear anything but French. That is who I am now. And she sets off in her French finery, surrounded by women she doesn't know, who are very formal

• 8:42Dan Snow?

  She has new ladies in waiting.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  They're very formal with her. There's no hugs, there's no, you know, hand holding. They're very formal with her. And then she goes to meet her future husband, who is, well, he's one of life's pragmatic diarists. He just writes in his diary, meeting with Madame la Dauphine, and that's it.

• 9:00Dan Snow?

  That's it, okay.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  That's it.

• 9:01Dan Snow?

  So not much poetry there in his heart. And also, her name changes at that border as well?

• 9:06Speaker 03

  Yes, she was Maria, she was Marie Antoin, and now she's Marie Antoinette. And everything about her is supposed to be French, except, she says, you say, The child of the historic enemy. I mean, they've been the enemy for so long. So it's all very well the elite saying Austrians are friends now, but do the other people, the ordinary people, do they really feel that way? Now here is the young princess who is pretty, graceful, elegant, she's charming, she charms Versailles, but she is Austrian.

• 9:37Dan Snow?

  She speaks perfect French?

• 9:39Speaker 03

  She's learning perfect French. She's, you know, her mother constantly criticizes her for the standard of her handwriting and her reading. We might possibly say now that it may be that Marie Antoinette is, would be defined as dyslexic now, but my mother's always telling her off for her handwriting. But Marie Antoinette's speech and language is really very, really very, very good very early. So she, she, she's emured in the court very quickly.

• 10:05Dan Snow?

  Now, she, so she wins friends at court or impresses people at court. But there are lots of innuendo and rumours about her marriage and whether it was happy at first, or whether it was even consummated at first.

• 10:18Speaker 03

  So you have the grand wedding, the king, who is grandfather of her husband, he thinks she's delightful and everything seems marvellous.

• 10:25Dan Snow?

  Louis the fifteenth?

• 10:26Speaker 03

  Louis the fifteenth, but there is this one problem. The marriage does not seem to be consummated. And this means she can be put aside at any time. She's talked by the Austrians, you don't understand the danger, but she does. She understands that. And as to when the marriage is consummated.

• 10:44Dan Snow?

  And by the way, do we, how do we know that? Was consummation a sort of semi-public event?

• 10:49Speaker 03

  It's not a semi-public event. It's just the fact that she's not falling pregnant and the gossip is that they don't know what they're doing. And the question of when it was consummated is one that historians debate. It could have been three years, but we know for sure it's seven years because then she falls pregnant. So that's for sure. But I think it's probably around three, four years. It takes them to

• 11:14Dan Snow?

  To work out.

• 11:14Speaker 03

  To work it out. A sort of doctor has to be sent to talk to them. Her brother actually later goes to talk to them again. And it is obviously, you know, Louis, he's a very simple soul. He's a simple soul. He loves clocks. He loves playing with locks. He was never really intended to be king. And I think he just, he just perhaps wasn't his bag. And certainly, unlike every other French king, he doesn't have a mistress. So Louis

• 11:42Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  doesn't have a mistress.

• 11:44Dan Snow?

  She was Louis the fifteenth.

• 11:45Speaker 03

  Well, yes.

• 11:46Dan Snow?

  Grandpa Louis.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  Well, he's had, well, Madame de Barry is everywhere at court. And initially Marie Antoinette says, who's that rather lovely lady? And she's told, ah, um, she's there to give pleasure to the king. And Marie Antoinette says, oh, well, that's good. I'd like to give pleasure to the king too. And then like, yes. Not like that, dear. And initially, when, when, when Marie Antoinette realizes who Madame de Barry is, she's really rather shocked that a mistress is openly at court and won't acknowledge her. And finally, she's persuaded to do so, which is seen as a great diplomatic breakthrough, just to say, hello, aren't there a lot of people here today? Because Madame de Barry is all powerful and the old king is, is really in charge. And if, this is a moment when Marie Antoinette hasn't consummated her marriage.

• 12:29Speaker 03

  But she acknowledges Madame de Barry, the mistress who controls everything. She consummates the marriage and then things seem to go reasonably well. But the lack of a mistress is actually very annoying to a lot of people at court because they want a mistress and a wife. So you can have a, a, a, two pathways towards the king. And, and also what we'll see a bit later on is that people might want to criticize the monarchy, but they don't want to attack the king because that could be treason and maybe he's chosen by God. So they'll attack the wife and they'll attack the mistress, but with no mistress, it's all going to go on the wife.

• 13:05Dan Snow?

  And France is, I mean, I think France in a perpetual state of crisis, but that France is, has a problem in the seventies, sixties and seventies, isn't it? Which is not enough money, too much expenditure. They've taken an absolute beating from the Brits in the, in the seven years war. So they're keen for revenge. I mean, where does she, that, that, you've talked brilliantly about her in terms of the court, the sort of politics of court. What, what about the sort of wider, the challenges facing France? Is she involved in those conversations?

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Challenges facing France are, as you say, Dan, catastrophic. There's the huge debt after the seven years war. Tax collecting is very inefficient and mainly falls on the poor who haven't got that much money anyway.

• 13:45Dan Snow?

  Aristocrats aren't paying any tax.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  Aristocrats aren't paying tax. In some areas pay more, more than others. The court, Versailles, is insanely expensive. It is insanely expensive. But the real cost is these wars that France has been engaged in and the fact that there's no tax collection. And it's a very sort of archaic, I would say, in terms of centralized bureaucracy and the civil service. It's really creaking. And so Marie Antoinette is in this court and what she's been trained to do is be the fairy at the top of the Christmas tree and organize this entire court. And yet also there are these waves of anger about people's lives just before the coronation.

• 14:29Speaker 03

  So when Marie Antoinette and Louis become king and queen, just before the coronation, we have what is known as the flower wars, battles over the rising price of bread and, and riots. And that is when it is said to have been the moment when the queen said, let them eat cake. But it's not actually true. It's, the let them eat cake is actually totally untrue. First of all, the quote was about brioche. So it was about let them eat brioche. But it was actually written by Jean Jacques Rousseau in his Confessions.

• 15:01Dan Snow?

  The philosopher Rousseau.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  The philosopher in seventeen sixty five. So when Marie Antoinette was about nine, he said, I'm going to a bakery, but I think my clothes are too nice. And then I remembered a great princess who said of the poor, let them eat cake. So this is when Marie Antoinette was nine. No one knew who she was in France. I mean, it's totally impossible it would have been her. And it just then becomes attributed to her in the eighteen forties and becomes

• 15:26Dan Snow?

  How interesting.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  a myth that we can't ever shake off. It's a bit like Catherine the Great, her contemporary, who, who later writes with some really helpful advice in the midst of the revolution. Catherine the Great writes to say, well, um, kings should just do as they please and carry on in their own way. You're like, yeah, thanks Catherine. Great advice. Yeah, very useful. She, the myth of her and the horse is, is created later and can't be dislodged. But so Marie Antoinette did never say let them eat cake. But as to how much she comprehended, understood, took seriously the riots of the poor about bread, no one did. Versailles was this bubble, this elite bubble. And they thought that if you just let the poor come in and watch you eat, that's enough.

• 16:09Dan Snow?

  So we got seventeen seventy four, they become king and queen.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  They become king and queen.

• 16:14Dan Snow?

  They're getting on pretty well at this point. They've got

• 16:15Speaker 03

  The marriage is going much better. And when they're in their apartments, when the old king is dying. And then this just sums up Versailles to me. They're in their apartments praying and then they hear this thunder, thunder of footsteps. And it's the entire court running from the king's deathbed to the new king and queen. And she's just eighteen. And that's the new centre of power. Poor old Louis the fifteenth, just left there. Everyone's forgotten about him and Jean de Barry's been sent away. So not even she's there. It is now the king and queen. And she says, we are too young. And yet she's now at the top of the tree, five hundred people. It's all about hierarchy.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  It's so ridiculous that when you get dressed, your, your outfit has to be handed to you by the most senior lady. So if someone else comes into the room, they have to start the whole thing again. And there's this wonderful book in the Archiv National of Marie Antoinette's wardrobe, all these individual pieces of material that she uses. It reminds me a bit of the beginning of Clueless, when Cher chooses her outfit on a computer. You're going to marry Antoinette's, all the outfits, but that's her job. And she sees that as her job to dress, to ornament, to preside over court, to support her husband. But what is wanted from the monarchy is changing.

• 17:33Dan Snow?

  And it's changing because there's a war brewing in North America and France will launch itself into that war. And that proves also incredibly costly. And ultimately the rewards do not accrue to the French. Despite Britain being defeated, but the, the French end up having had another, well, really kind of, I suppose, a strategic setback. You spent loads of money. The American colonies are independent, but sure, the French haven't actually gained that much out of it.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  I mean, it's, it's another disaster for the French and they're already in debt. And then they go and take part in this hugely costly war with Britain. So the national debt is ballooning by this point. It's simply going wild. And of course, the queen is going to be blamed.

• 18:15Dan Snow?

  And why? Is it because, because she's still presiding over this glittering cords and wearing all this jewellery, nice dresses? I mean, or, or is she, is she particular, is she a real spender? I mean, where, let's get, let's get into that myth. Is she fiddling while Rome burns at this point?

• 18:28Speaker 03

  The queen does spend too much. Her mother tells her off. She does spend too much. Versailles spends too much. The king spends too much. They see that as their duty. Their duty is to

• 18:37Dan Snow?

  Be fabulous.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  be fabulous, foster French, French manufacturing. That's their job. But I think there are such wider problems. And one of the real problems as to why there's so much anger against Marie Antoinette is because she excludes the traditional hierarchy of the nobility from her small circle. So initially, even after the marriage, we believe is probably consummated, it takes some time for a child to appear. And first it is little girl. Everyone's pleased, but it's girl. That's no good in France. It's got to be a boy. Giving birth is so public at the time that there's such a huge crush in the room of people all around poor Marie Antoinette giving birth that she faints and no one realizes because they're so busy talking.

• 19:24Dan Snow?

  The room is full of people and I

• 19:26Speaker 03

  And they're just chatting. Yeah.

• 19:26Dan Snow?

  And there's even, even some servants are like perched on top of cupboards.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  Having a good look, having a good look. Yeah. It's like that TV show that used to be on one born every minute, but the royal version. Well, you know, you think about how our births were publicly witnessed by politicians up until Elizabeth II, when she was Princess Elizabeth, was giving birth in, giving birth to Prince Charles, and the king thought, oh, maybe not.

• 19:48Dan Snow?

  The Home Secretary sat outside the door or something.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  I mean, royals, as Elizabeth II's governors said, are only private in the womb. If they probably could put the royal birth on a TV screen, we all watch it in Hyde Park.

• 19:58Dan Snow?

  It would do good numbers.

• 19:59Speaker 03

  People would all be watching it. So, yes, this is what poor Marie Antoinette has. And then she gives birth to her son, and her husband says she fulfilled the joy of France.

• 20:07Dan Snow?

  Little Louis.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  She's very popular at that point. But the problem is that when she arrived at court, she didn't like the hierarchy. It's not how she was used to in the Austrian court. And she felt that many of them had been rather cruel to her, of a childishness. So she has this very small group of chums, including the Princess de Lamballe, Polignac, the Count of Polignac. And the traditional aristocracy don't like this, and they feel excluded. So we see Marie Antoinette going after her, you know, the petty trianon, which you can still go to in Versailles.

• 20:39Dan Snow?

  Which is like a little, she builds a little, carves out a corner of Versailles.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  And she sort of renovates it. It's very beautiful, but it's tiny by royal standards. And that's where she can go to feel much more free away from the stultifying court. But it's a small group of people who are allowed there. And Antonia Fraser, who's written just an iconic book about Marie Antoinette, she writes so well about this small group, this small social group that Marie Antoinette becomes socially dependent on. And it's actually shown very well in the Sofia Coppola film. But it's all, it's, you know, these young, fun people. But it's a problem because the traditional aristocrats of Versailles, they don't like being excluded. And when they want to whip up hatred against Marie Antoinette, it's not going to work for them to say,

• 21:26Speaker 03

  oh, wow, no one invited us to the party. Oh, dear. Oh, well, where am I? But if they say, oh, this place where Marie Antoinette parties, she's pretending to be a shepherdess. She's playing at being a shepherdess and she's getting involved in all these strange orgies. That's what's going to work. So some of this is disgruntled aristocrats who aren't being invited to the party. So if that's a mole, invite them all.

• 21:51Dan Snow?

  As your mum says, the bullies, they're just jealous.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  They're just jealous. Invite the whole class to your party. Marie Antoinette did not invite the whole class to her birthday party and.

• 22:00Dan Snow?

  And, and we should say, so, and so you've mentioned this little cottage and they're all there and they have great times and a bit of privacy. They do, they do, you mentioned the shepherdess and they have, what, animals and things? I mean, she, she's not doing cosplay to be a shepherdess. Presumably she's got a sheep there, it's nice, right?

• 22:14Speaker 03

  It's a real sheep. It's a real sheep. Yes, it's the petty hammock is Marie Antoinette's farm. And it's a working farm. It is a working farm. And this is very fashionable in the aristocracy to have small working farms. It actually puts food on the table in Versailles. So we might say she's a very early allotment keeper. But what is a very traditional occupation for women, pretty common among the aristocracy, is easily shaped by the caricatures into this playing at being a shepherdess.

• 22:41Dan Snow?

  So divorced from reality.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  So divorced from reality. People are starving and here she is, dressed a bit like Bo Peep in Toy Story, wandering around looking for her sheep.

• 22:51Dan Snow?

  And then what about sexual, the suggestions that that was also a place where she could have affairs? I mean, this has been levelled at every single woman who's ever been wielded power. So, I mean, how seriously are we going to take this?

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Marie Antoinette is accused of having affairs, that when she does have this son, that he's not legitimate. She's accused of having various lovers, lesbian lovers, that Princess de Lamballe is accused of being her lesbian lover. All kinds of lovers. Basically, anyone who comes anywhere near Marie Antoinette is her lover. And all of them, I mean, absolutely not. There's a possibility, we scholars discuss it with Count Fersen, who is a very handsome soldier. And he's very much in Marie Antoinette's inner circle. And the letters that have been found and decoded are from their later friendship. And they seem very affectionate. So all that tells us is they had a very affectionate friendship later in life. Did they have an affair? We, I think, will never know.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  But certainly, all the caricatures, it wasn't about the truth. And in fact, the lesbian love, the sort of lesbian love accusations were much more potent, it seems, because those were the really shocking ones. That's the outrageous ones. The queen corrupts even the ladies in her circle. She corrupts everyone, the attrition.

• 24:00Dan Snow?

  So in the 1780s, the wars come to an end, but France is kind of on the winning side, but hasn't really got much to show for it.

• 24:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 24:07Dan Snow?

  And is utterly bankrupt. The French system depends on a super charismatic, capable king at the top like that. It's not like Britain, where they've got sort of political class ruling. So you need.

• 24:17Speaker 03

  Yes, that's true.

• 24:18Dan Snow?

  You need a kind of Louis XIV style baller in charge. Louis XVI is not one of those people. So there's a lot of problems.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  You're absolutely right. You know, you need, he, he just wants to be looking at his clocks. You need to be charismatic, rule with an iron rod, come down hard on the aristocracy. You're absolutely right. That is what France needs as a monarch, if a monarch is to survive. And our man Louis is not that. He's in a bubble.

• 24:42Dan Snow?

  Right. And, but Marie Antoinette keeps getting the blame for things. I mean, I always, I look at this period and think, the person, the guilty man here is Louis. He's an incompetent fool. I mean, nice guy, tinkering with his clocks. But poor Marie Antoinette keeps taking hits for her husband, effectively in poor government.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  She takes the hits. And this is the fascinating question about queens. Yes, they live in gilded palaces. Yes, they live in gilded cages. Yes, they can, they, they eat wonderful food when their people starve. But sometimes they're just there to be put in a, sort of lined up and like a bowling alley, and have a ball thrown at them and knocking them down. Because that's what she's used for, attacked over and over again. People, you know, generally leave Louis out of it. She is the one, she's, she's sexually depraved, she's spending, she's Madame Deficit. She's the one that's causing this ballooning debt, which creates massive inflation, huge prices of bread.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  It's all her fault. And she's this easy target. And she, you know, she does try and counter this with images of her as a royal mother. And it really fascinates me in the history of queenship, how so many women try and use the images of them as a royal mother, from Cleopatra, Marie Antoinette, I'm sure Amber Lynn did so as well, when, if we hadn't have lost so many of her portraits. But people don't want that. They want the sexy, wild, lascivious, party girl Marie Antoinette. And that's what was thrown at her over and over again. And then she comes to the biggest scandal of all, which is going to tear her reputation apart.

• 26:18Dan Snow?

  Oh, what's that?

• 26:19Speaker 03

  That is the affair of the diamond necklace.

• 26:22Dan Snow?

  Sounds like Sherlock Holmes.

• 26:23Speaker 03

  It sounds like Sherlock Holmes. Now, Dan, I, I know you're a one for beautiful jewellery and glamorous, glamorous jewels. I know, yes. You've got to imagine now, the most unpleasant diamond necklace. I know it sounds an oxymoron, doesn't it? But it's this diamond necklace, it's a sort of giant thing, it's a square thing, 650 stones, tassels, tassels and crosses and blobs. It's not very appealing.

• 26:49Dan Snow?

  No, it sounds rubbish.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  It's totally rubbish. Now, this necklace was made by Louis XV for Madame Dubarry.

• 26:56Dan Snow?

  His mistress.

• 26:57Speaker 03

  His mistress, commissioned for her. It was going to be her insurance. So I suppose when you're using a diamond necklace as insurance, you don't want it to be just a delicate little solitaire diamond. You want all the whoppers so you can use it as a piece to fund you when you get sent away. Now, it didn't get finished before the king, Louis XV, died.

• 27:19Dan Snow?

  Oh, no.

• 27:20Speaker 03

  And so it kind of, the jeweler, Burma, carries on doing it. And then thinks, what shall I do with it? And he says to Marie Antoinette, when she comes to the throne, would you like this? And she says, oh, no, because she doesn't want something made for a mistress. It doesn't suit her taste. She goes for these much more simple outfits, very simple Muslim dresses, this is the new fashion, doesn't suit her taste. And she also thinks it's too expensive. She says, we need ships more than we need a necklace.

• 27:49Dan Snow?

  A woman after my own heart.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  I know, isn't she just, isn't she just so very heroic?

• 27:53Dan Snow?

  Run me over, Mary.

• 27:54Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly, exactly. She'd buy all the ships. And then when she has a son, up comes the jeweler. Ooh, a push present, I believe we would call it. Would you like this present? And, you know, just 1.5 million livres? And she says, no. So the jeweler's got this ridiculous necklace on his hand. And he sends a paste version round the other courts of Europe. And all the other women say, oh, I'm not buying this, it's horrible. And then we have a man called Cardinal de Rohan, who had been the ambassador from Paris in the Austrian court. And Marie Antoinette thought he'd said mean things about her, so she doesn't like him. And he feels excluded.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  And then he gets a message suggesting that he meets a mysterious lady in the gardens of Versailles at night. And he turns up there in the gardens of Versailles. And there is beautiful, gorgeous Marie Antoinette. And she says to him, you may imagine that the past is forgotten. And essentially asks him to buy the diamond necklace for her in a secret, so no one knows. And then she'll pay him back. And so transported, because number one, he's back in favour. Number two, he thinks he's going to have an affair with Marie Antoinette.

• 29:15Speaker 03

  He thinks that, you know, meeting her in the twilight zones of the Versailles gardens means very exciting stuff. He speaks to the jeweler and the jeweler, poor old jeweler, is over the moon that he's going to sell this white elephant necklace that everybody thinks is disgusting. Well, maybe a bit far disgusting, but not, not the most beautiful necklace anyone's ever seen. And, and so the necklace is handed over and de Rohan thinks it's all marvellous. But then there's a problem. Marie Antoinette still keeps ignoring him. She just cold shoulders him at first sight. And that's weird. And then the jeweler writes to Marie Antoinette, her lady-in-waiting, her chief lady-in-waiting, Madame Kampam,

• 30:01Speaker 03

  and says, I can have the money now. And Marie Antoinette and Madame Kampam, what's he talking about? He's just, he's just trying to get us to buy something. We're just going to ignore this sales, sales pitch. And the jeweler says, no, no, you actually owe me the money for the necklace. You bought it, you need to pay for it. And the whole thing gets exposed. Now, what has happened is Cardinal de Rohan had this very glamorous mistress, Jean, who was an illegitimate, illegitimate descendant of the French royalty, Countess de Lamont. And she could see how naive he was. And therefore got a Parisian sex worker called Nicole Doliver to dress up as Marie Antoinette and pretend to be her in the gardens of Versailles.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  And therefore the necklace was then delivered to Jean de Lamont, who nicked it, took the whole lot and sold it off. And now everyone's in the midst of a drama. And Cardinal Rohan is called in front of the king and queen to, to account for this. And he says, but look, Marie Antoinette, you wrote me letters. And he gets these letters out. And they say to him, because that's not, because she signs them Marie Antoinette de France. And that's not how queens sign the letters. It's like Elizabeth R. You would just be Marie Antoinette. And they say to him, how did you knew this? How did you not know this? And he says, whoops. And we have this gigantic problem. If Marie Antoinette had bought that necklace, stuffed it in her jewelry box, just said to herself, okay,

• 31:28Speaker 03

  I hate it, but it was commissioned by the monarchy. Maybe I have to fulfill their debts. I think it would have just been a minor scandal of spending. This blows up. Now, some courtiers say, I think, King, hush it up. This is just too scandalous. Hush it up. But the king and queen think that making this a public discussion is a way of saving Marie Antoinette's reputation.

• 31:54Dan Snow?

  Yeah, because she's said, no, I'm not buying it. It's expensive.

• 31:56Speaker 03

  I'm not buying it.

• 31:56Dan Snow?

  Fiscal prudence.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Exactly. I'll take ships instead. And she has been defrauded. I mean, Jean de Lamotte is the original romance scammer. So all those, you know, people, you know, when people, people, you know, you know, all those people who contact you saying, well, I think, I think Brad Pitt went around asking people for money, you know, and got hundreds of thousands of pounds from people. So Brad Pitt and George Clooney and Elon Musk, apparently, I'm sure in about, in a few years' time, I'll fall prey to them and send George Clooney lots and lots of gift cards. But all these romance scammers have their ancestor in the, perhaps the biggest romance scammer of all, who doesn't just get some gift cards and, I don't know, your, your, your retirement fund. She gets 1.5 million lever of necklace and

• 32:41Dan Snow?

  She's done very well.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  She gets all of this. And there is a trial. Jean is branded, found guilty and branded with a V for voleurs, for thief. So she's put on trial and found guilty, but still, it's a massive scandal against Marie Antoinette because, you know, Rohan is acquitted. And this sort of suggests that maybe him thinking that he could have met Marie Antoinette in the gardens of Versailles might be possible. And that's, the poor old sex worker, Nicole Oliver, she just thought it was, I think she thought it was a sort of game that she was employed for. She's let off, poor woman. But, you know, initially, there's not a huge conversation about the diamond necklace, but it is going to explode much later.

• 33:25Speaker 03

  And one of the jokes that is played upon is that bijou is slang for female genitals. So there is this joke that Marie Antoinette is sexually lascivious and she's fiscally lascivious. So throwing her bijou around and, you know, sometimes I wonder, Cardinal Rohan, were you that, were you that naive? Were you, did you really, were you in on the plot? Did you think you were going to get some diamonds as well? Because he does destroy his correspondence, a lot of it, before the investigators get there. I mean, we will never know, but there is one big consequence of this. And when the story gets out in the midst of a lot of anger against Marie Antoinette because of rising prices,

• 34:05Speaker 03

  when Jean herself escapes prison, she comes to London, publishes her memoirs, says she was a lover of Marie Antoinette. And of course, the British think this is marvelous, lap it up. Oh, yes. Give us more about our enemies. Yes, this is splendid. And God knows where all the money goes. And this is, becomes this huge drama and Marie Antoinette can't escape it. She cannot escape it. So that is the background against which we are heading into the revolution.

• 34:31Dan Snow?

  Because that's the 1780s, we're in mid 1780s. So we're very close to this Icelandic volcano that goes off. French harvest completely destroyed. All of France's problems get a lot worse. And then late 1780s, the, the rubber hits the road, storming the Bastille, government, you know, they are, they know more money. It's all chaos.

• 34:50Speaker 03

  Storming the Bastille, the king is told while he's in bed that the Bastille has been stormed.

• 34:55Dan Snow?

  Big castle in Paris stormed by the people.

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Full of munitions and king asks, oh, is it a revolt? And the duke who tells him this says, no sire, it's a revolution. It is a revolution. We have the real, and what happened before this was that the king actually called a meeting of the estates general, which hadn't met since 1614.

• 35:18Dan Snow?

  So a sort of parliament.

• 35:19Speaker 03

  A sort of parliament. We have the aristocracy, we have the clergy. And it was decided that the third estate would also meet as well, that the poor, that very large, you know, lower working class, increasingly the middle class as well, that they all should be represented. But, but the king and Marie Antoinette, their, their son is dying during this. So they aren't really very present and this isn't seen as understandable. And really from this, you see the big movement of the aristocracy, who don't want to pay any land taxes, any property taxes. I mean, some aristocracy, I think genuinely do believe in, in freedom. Some just don't want to pay any more tax. And the rise of the third estate, the rise of the third estate, who become this very powerful grouping.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  And, you know, when, when they want to meet, they can't meet. So they meet in a tennis court in Versailles. So the, the rise of these political voices of the people, of all the sections of the people. And increasingly, the king and Marie Antoinette seem at odds to them.

• 36:18Dan Snow?

  We're going to pause right there, but there's more coming up after this.

• 36:23Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the 1700s would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery, a detail. But suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialized. Now I wonder what all baffled historians about us, mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Ah, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table has been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Time to kick end of year into high gear.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts and more.

• 37:32Speaker 02

  Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 37:46Speaker 04

  After civil war, regicide and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  I'm Professor Sisana Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on Not Just the Tudors from History Hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 38:19Dan Snow?

  Kate Williams, what happens next? The big moment.

• 38:21Speaker 03

  Big moment. Early October, we see the Women's March on Versailles. The women head, the market women, increasingly, you know, a huge group of women.

• 38:32Dan Snow?

  Parisian?

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Parisian market women who are angry at the price of bread, you know, thousands head towards Versailles. And here, they are initially sort of calmed a little by the king making promises. But in the evening, it really surges once more and they come into Versailles. And this is the moment when the royal family, well, that is the end of them and Versailles. They are then taken to the Tuileries and they are pretty much then prisoners.

• 39:03Dan Snow?

  So the takes of the physically taken out of Versailles and taken to Paris, the Tuileries Palace in, in the heart of Paris. I just don't understand this. They're meant to have the biggest army in the world. Like what's going, they're meant to have the biggest, most effective army in Europe. Why is there a crowd control issue at Versailles at this point? What's going on?

• 39:18Speaker 03

  The, the king and queen have the Swiss Guard, but they are overpowered. And also, the king, he sees himself as the father of his subject.

• 39:28Dan Snow?

  He doesn't want to shoot lots of women.

• 39:29Speaker 03

  He does not want to. I mean, pretty wise, but he, he wants to be the kindly father. And he really feels, I am booked by God. I am here. And if I am nice and, and speak gently, then I will be appreciated. And Marie Antoinette is so much more hated than the king. She doesn't want to sleep with him in the same room in case, in case he is, you know, he is attacked and a stake is driven through her bed. She is the one that garners all the hate. He is really forgiven. And I think that's because, yes, he, he's chosen by God, that's the principle. But there is, I think, the majority of people at this point, they, what they want is a constitutional monarchy, what we would see as a constitutional monarchy.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  I would say probably ninety five, ninety six percent of the country want Louis to be a figurehead.

• 40:18Dan Snow?

  Not unlike Britain.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  Spend less money, a sort of Swedish model. Spend less money, be a figurehead and really accept that role. That that's what they want. And, and, and Louis believes he can write it again. He believes he can come back. So they head to the Tuileries.

• 40:34Dan Snow?

  So they're taken from Versailles.

• 40:36Speaker 03

  Versailles has, they've, they've, the women have marched into Versailles. The queen's bed has been torn apart.

• 40:40Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  Barely anything can be taken. And the royal family are then taken to the Tuileries and they are now under house arrest. A rather lovely house arrest. They, they have freedom to walk around, they can go to church services, have visitors, have quite a lot of visitors, but they are now under house arrest.

• 41:01Dan Snow?

  And the king is ineptly attempting to restore his position, play politics. There's discussion, should we have a constitution? The constitutions are issued with the king as a, as a, as a, a head of state, but not all powerful. There's, there's a, it's a period of upheaval.

• 41:18Speaker 03

  This is a period of endless negotiations, endless upheaval and sort of battles within the powerful people in Paris as to what this new state, what this new country is going to look like, what, what, what do we have? What is the rights of man? What is it? And, but, you know, generally the royals are in a reasonable position.

• 41:39Dan Snow?

  Yeah, it's still reasonably friendly. I mean, it's a political wrangle, but then we're not, not, we're not pitchforks and firebrands at the moment.

• 41:45Speaker 03

  And then they make the fatal error.

• 41:49Dan Snow?

  Ah, yes.

• 41:50Speaker 03

  They make the fatal error of trying to escape in summer seventeen ninety one.

• 41:55Dan Snow?

  Why do they try and escape Paris?

• 41:57Speaker 03

  They probably are aiming to get over the border.

• 41:59Dan Snow?

  Just get the heck out of France.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  Get the heck out of France, be protected. Plenty of other royals fled in seventeen eighty nine. Plenty of the royals and aristocrats fled in seventeen eighty nine and got over the border and escaped. And what are they trying to do? Are they just trying, as they say, to go to a different part of France and really show themselves as the wonderful king and queen of France and there create a lot of loyalty? Well, maybe so, because certainly the further you get from Paris, the more generally royalist it is. So that is true. But either way, they are completely acting against the modern government. So what they're doing is almost traitorous, whatever, whether they're trying to get to a loyal part of France or whether they're actually trying to get to Austria.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  Either way, they're going up against the government.

• 42:48Dan Snow?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 03

  And this is a real problem.

• 42:50Dan Snow?

  Because the king is pretending to be negotiating good faith. The government's saying, yeah, sure, I'll be one of your constitutional monarchs and we can work together, that's fine. And now he's just dashed out of Paris, look, perhaps go and work with the enemies of France.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  With the enemy, with the, with the Austrians, with the enemy, because yes, they're enemies now. So with the enemy is, is what he's doing now. The whole idea of escaping, I think, could have been possible. It could have worked, but the entire execution is a disaster. It's a disaster. And the first disaster, I'd say, is the fact that they go in this rather large, rather large travelling berouche, in a rather large carriage, because we have to be dignified. And they think as, well, you know, when, you know, the, the very famous go and incognito and everyone recognizes them, they think, oh, you know, I'll just, I'll just maybe drive a smaller Rolls Royce and no one will know it's me. They really think that they, they look, make themselves look much humbler, but it's pretty obvious what it is.

• 43:45Speaker 03

  The other problem, I would say, is that there isn't with them a military man who knows how to command and think on his feet in what is going to be a very complicated operation. The queen is there and the royal governess is there and the king's sister is there. So it is the king, some women, some children, and the king, as we've talked about, he's a bit like Fatherington Thomas in Molesworth, isn't he? A bit, hello clouds, hello trees. He's not going to take command in a military operation. So it, it's all got a lot of issues to start with. And then they're late. They are late to the first post. So each, each post, they're going to get more horses and carry on going and the military

• 44:29Speaker 03

  escort, it's all been planned, the whole thing's been planned. And there's a chap called the Duc de Choisill, who is known for being a little bit panicky, a little bit panicky. He's on the first post, which is a great idea, isn't it? So he decides when they haven't arrived bang on time, he thinks, it's not happened, the whole thing's not happened, oh my goodness, everyone stand down, stand down guys, let's go, let's go to bed, let's go to bed, stand down. And so when the first rider gets there, there's no, there's no men, there's no horses, and this really begins the disaster. And they, then they, then they try and find horses and they're looking for horses and they, they try and carry on and there's an overturned furniture wagon and everything that could go wrong does go wrong. So within twenty four hours, they are captured.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  They've been spotted, they're captured and they're put in the house of the procurator, Monsieur Source. Now, at this moment, they are surrounded by the villagers, but at this moment, perhaps they could have escaped and perhaps they could have escaped and got out, but Louis doesn't command. And in fact, there are commands that if the king was taken prisoner, you know, that it should be fought to, to take him, that the men, the military men should fight and get him out. But, you know, they, they doesn't. And they stay in the house of the procurator, Monsieur Source. And, you know, then Marie Antoinette tries to sort of delay their leaving, just in case some people are coming to save them. And actually, people do come to save them.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  By the time they arrive, it is too late and they are being escorted back to Paris. And on this journey, it is horrendous because people turn their backs on them. They watch them in silence, they turn their backs on them. And that attempt, that flight to Varennes, that attempt to escape, I think, is the big turning point in this whole story. Because after this, the idea that, as you say, Dan, the idea that we could have this constitutional monarchy and the king was agreeing to it and it would all work out and we could put him on the throne and he could just do a bit of smiling and waving and the rest of the time could be much more equal, that's over.

• 46:36Speaker 03

  It's now war between the assembly, the convention and the king and queen.

• 46:43Dan Snow?

  So they're back in Paris.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  They're back in Paris.

• 46:45Dan Snow?

  Are they now under closer?

• 46:46Speaker 03

  Close arrest. Marie Antoinette's hair turns white overnight, she's only in her thirties. It turns white in the entire moment of the horror of this flight. And now things are beginning to become very severe. So in seventeen ninety two, they are moved to the, the prison, the temple in the Marais, the tower, they are moved there and their associates are really in danger now. So the Princess de Lamballe, who was a great friend of Marie Antoinette, who's actually the sister-in-law of the Duc de Orleans, who's, who's very instrumental in the whole aristocracy uprising of the French Revolution, she, she is, you know, she's beloved by Marie Antoinette, that, oh, I feel so sorry for her, because she actually did manage to get

• 47:31Speaker 03

  out of France. And then she comes back because she feels so sorry for Marie Antoinette. And she's basically executed pretty swiftly. Now, some, this, at this point, it, it isn't really as brutal as it gets to be later. Some of the executioners and the, and the guards let the women go because they just think they're just women, but they can't let her go. She's been in every caricature, she's, you know, all these images, she's Marie Antoinette's lesbian lover, another profligate, excessive woman. She's hated by all the aristocrats because she got all the party invitations. And when she's executed, what they do, the mob, the crowd, is they get her head and they put it on a pike. The Princess de Lamballe is very pretty, so they take her to a hairdresser, have her

• 48:14Speaker 03

  hair all done in the ringlets, so it just looks like it would do at court. And then they take this head and they wave it all along the street. And then they get to where Marie Antoinette is imprisoned in the temple in the Marais and, and they wave it, they wave it outside her window.

• 48:31Dan Snow?

  And what condition are they being kept in? Are they, they're still together as a family?

• 48:35Speaker 03

  They're still together as a family. It's, it's, you know, they can play cards, it, it, you know, it's not total imprisonment yet, but the end is nigh. I mean, they, they have to know that and they can, they know now that their friends are being executed and, you know, Marie Antoinette is so hated. So no one wants to wave a head outside the temple tower for the king. They want to do it for the queen because even though the whole point of a queen, a whole point of a woman is she can never have the throne in France. It's a Salic law, you can never have the throne. She is just a consort, but still she is hated so much more than the king. And yes, she had some political power, yes, she may have given information to the Austrians,

• 49:18Speaker 03

  yes, she did have, you know, she did have influence over ministers, what they did or they didn't do, and who was in charge and who was not. But overall, she's a consort and she is the one who's hated. There's, it is misogyny, it is anti-Austrian propaganda, but most of all, she, I think, is the easy target of the revolution. And the revolution is going to be a world of equality for men and liberty, égalité, fraternity for men. And so it's the queen who's got to be sacrificed.

• 49:48Dan Snow?

  We'll take a quick break here, folks, but there is plenty more coming up after this.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Ah, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table's been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Time to kick end of year into high gear.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts and more.

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 50:36Speaker 04

  After civil war, regicide and Cromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned. But Britain would never be the same. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this month on Not Just the Tudors, we're transported back to the age of Restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on Not Just the Tudors from history hit, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 51:09Dan Snow?

  Yes, this foil, she's the perfect foil, isn't she? She's a simple, every movement like that needs a great stories. And you've got this foreign, spendthrift, sexually deviant queen that's ruining France.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Sheep chasing, yeah.

• 51:23Dan Snow?

  Yeah. And so, of course, she's the perfect foil, I suppose. The revolution descends in this kind of spiral of radicalism. The king, so that's August 1792. Within six months, he'll be, he'll be killed.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  The king, there's a trial, his lawyers have given the evidence, he's put on trial. And there was a vote, there's a vote about, the convention takes a vote on whether or not he should be killed. And it's passed by six votes.

• 51:51Dan Snow?

  Yeah, it's close.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Slim, slim majority, but it is passed. And so it is the democratic decision that the king will be executed. The king is also given time to pray before he is executed. He's given time to pray. And Marie Antoinette says to the king, well, we'll come and talk and be together the night before you die. And the king doesn't want that. The king manages to escape. He doesn't want, I think, it to be imposed upon the queen that that's what's going to happen. So the king goes to his execution and he's executed in front of everyone. And the king's been executed. Well, you might think, there we are, job done. The king's executed, there's no more monarchy, there's a son, but he's a child and the king's

• 52:35Speaker 03

  brothers, but yeah, they've, they've gone, you know, they've, they've, they've gone.

• 52:38Dan Snow?

  They're abroad.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, they've whizzed off. So surely, surely job done, matter is done and the revolution can now continue.

• 52:48Dan Snow?

  The son's being reeducated now.

• 52:50Speaker 03

  So the son is taken and given to a cobbler and he's being reeducated. And then the big question comes, what do we do with the queen? Because there's a long discussion, should we send her to Austria in sort of a hostage exchange? All the rest of the aristocrats are in Austria, so there'd be plenty of people to hang out with there. What can we do with her? I mean, she has no political power, but there's this all night meeting, there's this all night meeting. Albert, this politician journalist, he said, I have promised the people, the head of Marie Antoinette, and I'll cut it off myself if you don't give it to them. And he also says, if we don't give the Marie Antoinette's head, they'll take ours.

• 53:33Speaker 03

  So she's now going to be this sacrifice to appease the crowd. This vision that the politicians who are now in control have, that yes, they've, they've killed the king, but that's not enough. They've got to kill the queen. And that's what the crowd really, really wants. So Marie Antoinette must be put on trial for treason, collaborating with Austria, pushing the king ETC. But in the middle of the trial is brought up that she committed incest with her son, that she corrupted the heir to the throne. And this, Marie Antoinette is devastated, she says, in an appeal to the other mothers, you know, I wouldn't do this. And actually, a lot of the women in the room are sympathetic. And I think almost that's a problem for the committee, because I think goodness me, when

• 54:17Speaker 03

  the queen speaks, it's not good.

• 54:20Dan Snow?

  Quite convincing.

• 54:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's quite convincing. So we probably really do need to get rid of her. And there isn't a vote, there isn't an actual democratic vote on whether or not to behead her as a consequence of the trial. You know, I mean, yes, you might say she has no political role, so she doesn't need a vote, but at the same point, this is the queen we are executing. And it is simply decided that she's going to be executed. She expected life imprisonment, but execution is what she's going to get and they want to execute her very, very fast. And she's put, and she's been, she's been transferred to the conciergerie under very cruel restrictions. Guards watch her all the time. She has this devoted maid, Rosalie Lemailler, who looks after her, tries to shield her

• 55:06Speaker 03

  when she's getting dressed because the, the guards are trying to watch, you know, she tries to sit her in the corner and stand so no one can see. And on the morning of her execution, Rosalie begs her to have some broth, she really wants her to have some broth. And I think Marie Antoinette just does it because she wants to please Rosalie. And Marie Antoinette's been, everything's been taken from her. And what I find so striking is that the king went to his execution in a carriage. Marie Antoinette goes in an open cart. She is the real enemy of France, even though she could never, ever be on the throne. The history of queenship, we see an awful lot of women who were consorts then popping up and taking the throne for themselves, including Catherine the Great. Absolutely.

• 55:50Speaker 03

  She was an iconic figure of, oh, well, um, oh, bye bye husband, it's me, heavens. Marie Antoinette couldn't do that. But yet she is the ultimate enemy. She's public enemy number one. Her hands are bound together and she's jeered, she's laughed at, and she gets up onto the scaffold and she steps on the executioner's foot by mistake. And she says, excuse me, monsieur, I did not mean to do it. And those are her last words. The queen is beheaded, she's executed, her head falls to the ground and then she's thrown into a communal grave. So we don't know where she is.

• 56:29Speaker 03

  But Madame Tussaud sets up her wildly successful wax model museum, that head of Marie Antoinette that she sculpted just after the queen's execution. That will be pride of place.

• 56:43Dan Snow?

  I went to the Vatican Archives once and I saw the last thing, she had a little scrap of paper she wrote to Pope, one of the last things she did, didn't she? And she asked him, yeah, it's amazing thing.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  You saw it.

• 56:51Dan Snow?

  One of the treasures of the Vatican Archives, extraordinary. The Hat to Kill, Prison 280, Kate Williams, that was so interesting and fantastic. If people want to know more about it, they can read your book.

• 57:00Speaker 03

  My new book, Regina, is out, The History of Queens.

• 57:03Dan Snow?

  A smash hit, History of Queens.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  What happens to queens? They get satirised by everyone from caricaturists to medieval chroniclers. So you think of the history of queens, they're attacked for vanity and spendthrift and disgraceful nature, pulling the king from his true aims, from the medieval chroniclers of early Aquitaine, right up to the paparazzi photographs now and Marie Antoinette and that battle that she has to try and control her image, which fails in every way. Because what everyone wants is a spendthrift, disgraceful, shocking queen. And she who has to die for the revolution to be truly born.

• 57:41Dan Snow?

  I, you sent me a copy of that book, prepublication, I could not put it down.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  You do, thanks for your kindness.

• 57:45Dan Snow?

  Well done, Kate, congratulations on getting it published. Kate, well, that was amazing. If you want to see more episodes like that, make sure you like and subscribe and follow and all the things, hit the buttons, folks. See you next time.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Aw, fall. That cozy season where we swap the swimwear for sweaters and sunnies for scarves. But before the Halloween decorations are put away or Thanksgiving table's been set, there's already holly jolly music playing in the grocery store, reminding you that the year is coming to a close.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  Time to kick end of year into high gear.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  When you use Apple Card with Apple Pay, you earn 2% daily cash back on all purchases, including food, decorations, gifts and more.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Get a head start on your end of year purchases. Apply for your Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today and start using it right away with Apple Pay.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

• 58:58Dan Snow?

  Have you been enjoying my podcast and now want even more history? Sign up to History and watch the world's best history documentaries on subjects like how William conquered England, what it was like to live in the Georgian era, and you can even hear the voice of Richard III. We've got hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, and there's always something more to discover. Sign up to join us in historic locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.