Are You an ALMOND MOM? Talking EXTREME Generational Diet & Wellness Culture with Rina Raphael

In this discussion about children and diet culture, we cover a lot of fascinating findings: 00:00 - Introduction 01:49 - Mom Shaming 101 09:10 - Almond Moms & Kids Fit Bits 14:54 - Kids $150 Peloton 17:50 - Wellness Barbie 19:21 - Diet Culture in School 21:49 - Tween Wellness Influencers 25:00 - Adult Agendas for Kids Lives 28:45 - Goop is Dead 32:00 - Best Practices for Raising Healthy Kids References: https://portal.nifa.usda.gov/web/crisprojectpages/1020701-how-mothers-evaluate-and-spread-information-related-to-child-nutrition-on-social-media https://hbr.org/2019/08/research-on-many-issues-americans-biases-are-decreasing https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2562308/ https://publications.aap.org/pediatrics/article/141/4/e20172955/37784/Intergenerational-Transmission-of-Parent?autologincheck=redirected?nfToken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30847737/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31500945/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10357749/ Check in with today’s amazing guest: Rina Raphael Substack: welltodo.substack.com Instagram: @rrrins Website: rinaraphael.com Book: The Gospel of Wellness by Rina Raphael Disclaimer: The content in this episode is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is never a substitute for medical advice. If you’re struggling with with your mental or physical health, please work one on one with a health care provider. If you have heard yourself in our discussion today, and are looking for support, contact the free NEDIC helpline at 1-866-NEDIC-20 or go to eatingdisorderhope.com. • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✨ Reach Your Weight & Health Goals — Without Dieting! Pre-order The Hunger Crushing Combo Method, Abbey’s revolutionary additive approach to eating well. Learn how to boost satiety, stabilize blood sugars, reduce disease risk, and improve your relationship with food — all while getting the best nutrient bang for your caloric buck. With 400+ research citations, cheat sheets, evidence-based actionable tips, meal plans, and adaptable recipes, The Hunger Crushing Combo Method is the only nutrition bible you’ll ever need. 👉 Pre-order today! 🛒 Where to Purchase: Amazon Barnes & Noble Amazon Kindle Apple Books Google Play Kobo Apple Books (Audiobook) Audible abbeyskitchen.com/hunger-crushing-combo • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • •✉️ Subscribe to My Newsletters: Abbey’s Kitchen Newsletter 📘 Check out my FREE E-Books: Hunger Crushing Combo™ E-Book Protein 101 E-Book 👋 Follow me! Instagram: @abbeyskitchen TikTok: @abbeyskitchen YouTube: @AbbeysKitchen Blog: abbeyskitchen.com Book: The Mindful Glow Cookbook • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • • 🎧 Don’t forget to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen — and leave us a review! It really helps support the show ❤️ 💬 If you liked this podcast, please like, follow, and leave a review — and let me know who you’d love to hear about next! ⭐ ⭐ ⭐⭐ ⭐ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot stop your new clients from emailing you at 3 a.m.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  We can help you sell, market, and hire in one place. We cannot help you be in three places at once. And while we can't help you organize your calendar, LinkedIn can help you land more clients so you have a calendar to organize. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com/smallbusiness.

• 0:31Abbey Sharp?

  Moms today are supposed to be self-sacrificing, perfect, but with little structural support. And when it's just on the individual, the stakes are much higher. It forces you to become more judgmental of others, but also of yourself.

• 0:50Abbey Sharp?

  Welcome to another episode of Bite Back with Abby Sharp, where I dismantle diet culture rules, call out the charlatans spinning the pseudoscience, and help you achieve food freedom for good.

• 1:04Abbey Sharp?

  Today's episode topic is one that I really do feel passionate about as an anti-diet culture dietitian and mom of two. So we're going to be talking about raising healthy kids in an age of internet nutrition misinformation, fear mongering, shame, and pressure. Joining me today is the author of The Gospel of Wellness, Gyms, Gurus, Gup, and the False Promise of Self-Care, Rena Raphael. Rena is an acclaimed journalist who's been published with The New York Times, The L.A. Times, and so much more, specializing in a critical analysis of health, wellness, and consumer trends. So today, we're going to be talking about diet culture mom shaming, almond moms, kids fit bits, and so much more. A quick note that the information in this episode

• 1:47Abbey Sharp?

  is for entertainment and educational purposes only and is never a replacement for one-on-one health advice. Also, I would love if you would give Bite Back a follow wherever you listen to your podcasts, and also if you would leave me a review and a little comment. It really does make my day and help me out. All right, let's get into it.

• 2:14Abbey Sharp?

  All right, Rena, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to talk about this.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I'm glad to be here.

• 2:20Abbey Sharp?

  So obviously, there's just this enormous amount of pressure on parents to make sure, you know, that our kids are quote unquote, "healthy." And, and most of this falls on moms, who are often seen as like the nutritional gatekeepers. From your research in this area, what is it about food specifically that makes it such a magnet for social judgment and mom shaming?

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I actually wrote a piece for the LA Times on how judging other parents' food choices has become, quote, "a blood sport." And I live in LA, so that's, it definitely feels like that here. Just, I'm going to give one stat, but I think there was a Pew Research Center survey of more than 4,000 US parents. And it found that nearly 40% of parents feel judged, and the majority of that judgment centers around food. There was another poll by the University of Michigan that said that six out of 10 mothers of young kids say that they've been criticized about parenting, and half of those complaints were just about what they feed their kids.

• 3:21Abbey Sharp?

  Wow.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  So it has increased. And I have, I mean, I found some really incredible stories, like parents who were getting notes from teachers saying, "Stop poisoning your kids with donuts if they dare give them a treat."

• 3:38Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Or, you know, kids now needing permission slips to drink soda at a birthday party. It's funny, I have a friend here in Los Angeles who once told me that, it was a Sunday, she packed her two kids into the car with her husband, they went to a birthday party. They get to the birthday party, you know, they saw balloons outside a house, they went inside the house. They're sitting there, and they're realizing they don't- Recognize anyone at all. They don't notice any of their friends or their neighbors. They're like, huh? And then suddenly she spots something, someone pouring soda into a glass. And she turns to her husband and goes, oh, my God, we're at the wrong party. No one we know would serve soda.

• 4:20Speaker 02

  And it really does kind of feel that way, especially here in Los Angeles, where this idea of how you feed your children and what is children's nutrition has really taken on this sort of heightened alarm. And one of the most simplest reasons is simply for the fact that there's just so much more talk about childhood obesity. And while it's definitely an issue, that it is sort of in some situations become a sort of moral panic. And so all this sort of attention around childhood obesity makes people far more, I would say, alarmist about what they feed their kids. Or more than that, how others will perceive them if they feed their kids an Oreo. That's part of it.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  So this heated discourse has really put extra pressure on parents. And the second thing is that parents these days hold really, really fierce opinions about diet and nutrition. Right? I like to give the example of, and this is kind of a little side segue, but a couple of years ago, NPR did a piece on organic food. And they basically asked the question, is it healthier than non-organic food? And based on the research that they were, you know, basically giving out, they said, it's not necessarily healthier than non-organic food. And they were flooded with phone calls where people were so angry with them, where they had to do a follow-up segment. And why is that? Because it's not just organic food. It's come to symbolize a different type of values,

• 5:45Speaker 02

  come to symbolize an appreciation of nature, healthy eating, better parenting. It's instilled with all these values that people then internalize. So that when you are potentially criticizing organic food, you are criticizing the person and their value system. And the same thing goes to parenting. The way I feed my child, the preciousness, that, that all the sort of values I put into that, when someone necessarily looks at it, it might feel like they're not just attacking your mode of feeding, it's attacking your parenting. Definitely. But parents are also concerned about how their children will be perceived if they are larger sized, right? So they don't want to be judged by other parents.

• 6:27Speaker 02

  But more than that, they're also worried about how it will set them up for life. I think we're seeing a lot of sort of middle, upper middle class anxiety about children's futures, where they're so concerned about them getting into the right schools, getting into the right colleges.

• 6:40Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  All those things they believe start at a younger age. This idea of why would I hold my child back from maybe being as athletic as he can be? And then he's not going to get on the right teams and he's not going to get the right scholarship. It's like a really almost snowball effect that goes into people's minds. The other thing I'll say is that good parenting, and I'm using air quotes here, good parenting, however you want to define that, it's become really idealized. And there's so much pressure these days on people being sort of perfect parents and having sort of these like perfectly situated asayebos for their kids when they come home. Like, everything's kind of become a lot harder for parents in terms of how they actually parent their children.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  So moms today are supposed to be self-sacrificing, perfect, you know, but with little structural support, you know? And without that institutional support, it's on the individual. And when it's just on the individual, the stakes are much higher. And when the stakes are much higher, it forces you to become more judgmental of others, but also of yourself. So when we talk about people judging other parents, they're just as hard on themselves.

• 7:53Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, yeah, no. It is such a hard time to be a parent. And, you know, like, it's so hard to feel confident in your choices when there are so many conflicting messages online for parents to try to absorb. And, and like you said, I think that unfortunately, we live in diet culture. We live and breathe in this world where, at the end of the day, larger body folks are in a lot of ways disadvantaged, right? So it's not just about their, their child being able to like be the star athlete. This is, you know, about are they going to be able to get the job that they want? Because we know that unfortunately, folks in larger bodies are often overlooked for,

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 8:30Abbey Sharp?

  you know, positions that they should have. And are they going to get the healthcare that they provide that they want? Are they going to find the life partner that they should have? Like, all of these things, it feels like such a daunting, daunting thing for parents to have to grapple with.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  And they're doing it alone.

• 8:44Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  And they're doing it alone. And it's so funny because you're really at the Venn diagram of the people who are most scrutinized. Because in my piece, I interviewed a lot of nutritionists and dietitians who say they're really under a magnifying glass.

• 8:55Abbey Sharp?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:56Speaker 02

  Where anytime they know they give their Gatorade, someone's like, I can't believe you of all people.

• 9:00Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  But it's also being a mom and how they're treated different than dads. You know, there's one anecdote that someone told me was that, you know, they were, had a group of friends who would meet once a week for like a picnic in the park. It's usually moms. And if one mom brought something like, you know, goldfish crackers or this and that, people behind, behind her back would be like, I can't believe she brought that, you know? She should be feeding her kids something healthy.

• 9:24Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  But then the dad shows up one day and he comes with an armada of like Oreos and cookies. And the response was, what a good dad. He brought snacks.

• 9:32Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Remember to bring snacks.

• 9:34Abbey Sharp?

  Fun dad, fun dad.

• 9:37Abbey Sharp?

  I know, it's, we are absolutely not held to the same standards. And so it is so interesting. I mean, we, we hear a lot about the kind of quote unquote almond mom trope that, that goes around. We don't hear about an almond dad so much. You know, essentially what this is are, are moms who feel obsessed or concerned over their children's diet and their children maintaining this kind of healthy, perfect, or, you know, socially desirable body shape and size. And there's like a lot of ways that these, this trope can kind of manifest within families that can be very dangerous. And I'm curious because you've done some reporting on this in families with, you know, young kids getting given Fitbits to encourage them to exercise.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:17Abbey Sharp?

  And I'm sure this is done with the best intentions because again, we as mothers and as parents, no exercise is good for our kids. And we, you know what? We want our kids to move their bodies and get their steps in, all this. And this is really basic. Based on what we are reading and seeing online. But based on the interviews that you've done, like, what are some of the unintentional outcomes of giving kids these kind of wearable devices to encourage them to, you know, do what diet culture has really taught us that we should be all doing, which is exercise and getting 10,000 steps a day?

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, so first and foremost, I think it's kind of backwards to think that we're going to get kids excited about movement with these sort of extrinsic rewards, you know, these games, these points, et cetera, versus intrinsically them being excited about play, which is very simple. They just need opportunities to be with other children.

• 11:11Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  But, you know, what's funny is that it's worth asking whether these Fitbits for children actually work, and let me explain why. The first is that some studies that are done on schools that have sort of incorporated these have found that some kids don't react well to them. It makes them really competitive with their peers. There was one case of one kid who wanted to get, who got 25,000 steps in a day to sort of become the victor of his classroom. They found, much like adults, that sometimes these trackers can kind of suck out the fun out of an activity. It becomes about getting as much steps in versus sort of, again, just play, just enjoying it. And you become so focused on sort of,

• 11:56Speaker 02

  again, this sort of extrinsic thing, you have to get these certain points or steps. And this idea that kids would care about how many steps they take, I mean, that's what armies do. It's like, it's just, it's a very silly thing for kids to want to care about. So that's the other thing. The other problem is that, much like adults, same thing, they lose interest after a couple of months. I mean, I think there was one study that found that half of consumers, adult consumers, throw their, you know, activity trackers in a drawer after a couple of months because they just get bored of it, or because they don't enjoy it. So the same thing happens to children. So I think even just from a functional point of view. It's not necessarily something that is worthwhile for a parent.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  But it really does get back to what we see as the fetishizing of health. That this concern about health, this concern about fitness, movement and diet, is seeping into younger and younger age groups. And parents are doing everything they can to get a leg up on that. And in some ways that I think are counterintuitive. So I think my one advice for that is it's worth asking your kid what they actually enjoy. Maybe it's skateboarding, maybe it's free play with friends, whatever it is. And then going that route versus trying to dangle this shiny thing, you know? Because what's actually funny is when I was reporting on this, was it wasn't just children who become sometimes obsessed with getting in all their steps

• 13:21Speaker 02

  or doing all their, you know, there were stories of kids who'd be waving their arms for half an hour after dinner because they didn't get enough steps in and they're trying to sort of game their Fitbit. Which is funny only because like Fitbits are also only, I think, something like 80% accurate. So sometimes they're not even, they're not even necessarily accurate. So you're just basically doing all this extra exercise. There were tales of parents who said that their kids were running circles in the kitchen because they didn't feel like they made their points for the day. But also, parents were becoming obsessed. Parents were checking their kids' stats before they went to sleep. So it was kind of like a multi-generational fetishization of it.

• 13:57Abbey Sharp?

  And that's terrifying to me. I mean, you know, that if we do look at the research in kids specifically, like there was one study on kids that were like 14 years old. And they found that Fitbit use did promote these like negative feelings around their activity, made them, you know, equate exercise simply to just like not being fat, which is kind of the starting point for an eating disorder. And even if it doesn't result in a full-blown ED, there's, there's lots of research showing that tracking every single steps, like you said, like makes us dislike movement. And also dissuades us from engaging in well-rounded exercise that doesn't like rack up steps on the ass. Like strength training and biking and swimming and yoga and like skateboarding and things like that, right?

• 14:39Abbey Sharp?

  It doesn't, you know, it's not running around in circles in your bedroom, which is really, it's borderline, it's a slippery slope. I personally hate them.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and they don't work. I spoke to, I think it was University of Washington Health Kids Fitness Clinic. And they said that what works the best is actually modeling that behavior. The family goes on walks, the family plays sports, the family, it's not just telling your kids, you should exercise, here's a thing that's going to force you to do it.

• 15:09Abbey Sharp?

  Hundred percent.

• 15:24Abbey Sharp?

  And I also, okay, I need you to tell listeners about that little Tyke stationary bike thing. Like, the ad for this toy is wild. Do you just, can you just explain what this, this toy is and how it's marketed to parents? Cause it's wild.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. So they have something called the Pelican, and it's basically a Peloton, but it's for, you know, toddlers and little kids. It costs $157. And the idea is to instill good habits at a younger age. But the funny thing is, is that the reason that the Peloton exists is because adults do not have time to go out and play and have fun and be outside.

• 16:04Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  It's because they need, like, they only have like a 30 minute break at home, you know, in between work where they're able to work out. That is not what we should be subscribing to children. Like, it's kind of like this

• 16:14Abbey Sharp?

  Hundred percent.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  worst kind of like hysterical thing. Now, you know, people will also say, no, kids are interested in everything that, that their parents do. In the same way that we used to have like sort of baking sets or a whole bunch of stuff that like kids just want a model of parents. Sure, but there is something kind of dystopian about it because the idea of a kid sitting at home riding on their little Pelican versus just going outside and being on their tricycle seems kind of backwards.

• 16:40Abbey Sharp?

  So backwards. It really does overlook the movement benefit matrix that is so key to childhood, like, physical and emotional development, like, taking into consideration the community and the imagination and the teamwork and nature and creativity, the risk taking of just like going outside and get yourself dirty and climbing a tree. Like, you can't get that.

• 17:01Speaker 02

  Or asking a friend to play. Even the idea of asking a friend to play has its own set of risks. There's so much that's being learned when you go outside and play.

• 17:10Abbey Sharp?

  One hundred percent.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  This idea that we have to instill better health habits. Starting younger and younger, it's sort of, it's just really funny. I mean, even Cocohellen, which is a very famous children's song group, you know, they have like now, they have a song that's called like Stay Healthy and another one called like Working Out Is Good For You. I mean, it's just, and, oh, there's also another- Peas, peas, you gotta eat your peas. Yes, yes, yes. Oh, you know it. And, but- Oh, I know it. But there are even like toy barbell powerlifting sets to quote, "train children slowly." And I think the Fisher Price one comes with like a fake protein shake. I mean, Wow.

• 17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's just, you know, the kids market is really, really interesting because there is a market for it. And especially for parents who love wellness culture, or it is very much part of their identity, they kind of want to give that to their kids. But I do think a lot of parents believe that it's going to actually instill habits in their kids. When I don't, when I think that at such a young, impressionable age, they may not sort of get the message that you want. For example, Mattel has a Wellness Barbie collection. And Wellness Barbie basically has, you know, her little smoothie stand and her spa accessories and, you know, her athleisure wear. And basically, the message

• 18:35Speaker 02

  you ultimately give to kids is that health or wellness is all about all these accessories and looking nice. Yeah. It's all about products. They, they start to conflate health with sort of the wellness industry. And the wellness industry, which is very productivity pressured and very much focused around consumerism, is very different than actual health habits, which are much simpler. So that's sort of the problem, I think, with all this. And, you know, even Barbie, she has like a YouTube page where she talks about self-care. And it's always about like, you know, me, myself, and like my gratitude journal. It's very much a lonesome endeavor of how Barbie gets well. Barbie never says I'm gonna get well by going out and hanging out with my friends. And so it just sort of instills this idea that it's

• 19:20Speaker 02

  a solo journey. That, and, and so funny, I mean, I always used to criticize the wellness industry that the one, the one of the biggest pillars of health- Is socialization, is being social.

• 19:34Abbey Sharp?

  Yes.

• 19:34Speaker 02

  And they completely, and they completely ignored it. Why? Because it's really hard to monetize. That's the number one reason. You, now they're trying to monetize it in weird, kooky ways with all these sort of like social groups. But in general, it just didn't make money, not the way that a product can.

• 19:50Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, no, 100%. Um, I also kind of want to talk about the influence of school because I just remember when my son was like maybe four years old. He was sent home with this assignment to sort foods into like healthy, quote unquote, healthy and quote unquote junk categories. And obviously as a dietitian, I was like freaked the fuck out. Um, but anyways, my preschooler got the assignment wrong because he put tacos into the supposedly healthy category because he knows we have tacos every single week. But apparently the tacos were supposed to be categorized as junk.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 20:22Abbey Sharp?

  And I just want to make it like super duper clear that this is not the teacher's fault. They're not nutrition professionals. They are being influenced by the same kind of problematic content that parents are and children are. But I'm kind of curious from your research, like what are some of the other most misguided initiatives taken by schools to, you know, with, you know, with best intentions, of course, but to try to control children's meals or bodies. You kind of mentioned it earlier about like the, the permission slips and stuff. What, can you talk more about that?

• 20:54Speaker 02

  Those are for birthday parties. Those are for birthday parties. But yeah, no, I, I did a story that, um, found that a lot more schools these days are introducing wellness courses or wellness curriculums. Um, and they're not being taught by a dietitian or nutritionist. It's basically like a homeroom or just a teacher who's not necessarily specialized in health or wellness. And for example, some of the assignments they give are food tracking diaries where they ask tweens, you know, young. Girls and boys to sort of track what they eat and then dictate whether it is, you know, either bad or good, healthy or unhealthy. And I spoke to one parent and one girl who she developed an eating disorder because of that.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  Now, I don't think that's the norm. I don't think most kids are, you know, developing eating disorders, but it does show sort of the risk of it. But also, what do they actually get out of this? This idea of sort of moralizing foods as good as bad. It's especially problematic at this age because it's such a vulnerable age. And also, it sets the stage for a lot of health habits and eating habits for later in life. I read one study that I believe that orthorexia is very, a lot of time starts between ages 13 to 16. It's one of the biggest demographics and orthorexia is obviously an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy. So there is sort of a, maybe a more insidious harm that could show up later.

• 22:19Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah, okay, and it's obviously not just, you know, parents and educators who, you know, are being swayed by wellness culture and diet culture. Can you talk about this whole genre of like Gen Alpha influencers? Because again, it's like young people talking to young people.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're finding that, you know, it used to be you had an idea of who a wellness influencer was. She was gorgeous, thin, she had this perfect, you know, kitchen where she made all her smoothies, but was maybe sort of in her twenties or older.

• 22:48Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  And now you're finding that a lot of teens are even attracted to making content around wellness. And that is for the simple reason that they open up their Instagram or TikTok, and that's what they're being served. They're no different than us.

• 23:00Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And again, it's just what's popular. I was just reporting on the fact that there's now kind of a lot of, I would say more Maha specific teen influencers, and these are kids who are touting drinking raw milk.

• 23:11Abbey Sharp?

  Yikes.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  And mouth taping and, you know, sort of parrot all the same concerns about like red dyes and organic food. And they're gaining a loyal following because there are, there is a teen market that cares about that stuff. Now, I would say the girls' content is very different than boys' content. Girls care a lot about sort of clean eating, avoiding, I'm using air quotes here, chemicals.

• 23:33Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  They might be into something faddish like avoiding seed oils or whatnot. Boys care much more about fitness, eating protein, gaining muscle. But they have their own sort of, I would say, concerns in the sense that they talk about only eating protein and taking all of these supplements. And they also want to eat clean. It's kind of almost a mirror of what girls have, but it's a little bit different. And I spoke to several kids' health clinics and dietitians who said that they're seeing many more boys have eating disorders because they're indexing and only eating protein to the exclusion of other food groups.

• 24:08Abbey Sharp?

  Oh, yikes.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  And the idea that something's coming from your peer is all the more powerful.

• 24:13Abbey Sharp?

  Definitely.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  But when I ask these teen influencers, because I've interviewed them, how did you get into this? They'll say, well, I opened up Instagram and it was like all health and wellness content.

• 24:22Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Or a lot of them also have the same origin stories as adult influencers that we all kind of got accustomed to. They had some gut issue or they had some health issue and then they tried some radical new diet and poof, they felt better. And then now they've been sort of christened a wellness influencer.

• 24:39Abbey Sharp?

  We actually just had a similar discussion that was specific to young boys and men around the intersection between diet culture and the manosphere. And this kind of like pipeline that so easily young boys can fall into from this like looks maxing kind of space of how do I get my jaw to be defined? How do I get those muscles? And how like you very quickly can like fall into like the Andrew Tates of the world. So yeah, it, boys, unfortunately, we've overlooked young boys and men when it comes to protecting them from diet culture and wellness culture and talking about it and body positivity and all that. But you're right, like, like, boys are absolutely so susceptible to these messages as well.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  The other thing that I think is really interesting is that we're just sort of seeing and discussing all of this, it's really sort of seeing this adult culture trickle down to teens in the sense and almost of a blurring of the barriers between kids and adults. And I spoke to Nancy McDermott, who's the author of The Problem with Parenting: How Raising Children is Changing Across America. And she told me that more and more, we're seeing adult agendas really dominate kids' lives, you know? And I think that's really, really true, that this idea that there's just kids' culture just isn't really true anymore. They're really starting to mimicking what us adults care about. And I think that,

• 26:19Speaker 02

  in some ways, that could be good, but in general, I think that could be really, really problematic. This idea of even these teen influencers going online, and a lot of them are telling me they're spending between 30 to 50 hours a week working on content. And they'll tell me things like, "We don't go eat out with our friends. We don't do sleepovers because I have to be asleep by 8:30, and I can't go out and eat because I don't trust that food." It kind of robs them of their youth when they're caring so much about these adult agendas. And that's what I think the saddest thing is.

• 26:49Abbey Sharp?

  Is the saddest thing. I mean, generational diet culture runs so deep. And I hear from so many of my followers who struggle with disordered eating patterns, that they're so scared to pass these problematic behaviors or thought patterns on to these kids. But it's just so sad that now it's almost like the possibility is that this is flipped, and that now it's young people who are being indoctrinated so early on into these wellness and diet culture messaging, that they very easily could be passing that on to their own families, bringing this home, being like, "Mom, we can't have seed oils anymore. We can't eat any sugar in the house anymore. We can't go out to eat with family. I don't

• 27:30Abbey Sharp?

  want a birthday cake." You know, like, all of these things, it's not just from parents on to children, but actually it might be from children on to family. It's, that is so sad.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  I was speaking to the founder of Generation Skeptics, which develops curriculums for better critical thinking for kids in schools. And they were telling me that there's these battles being waged right now within schools, where these kids are coming to school with all these sort of, you know, conspiracy theories about dieticians and, you know, the health industry and pharmaceutical industry. But also coming in with, you know, they are observing raw diets. They're drinking raw milk. They're, you know, they're really into something called pheromone maxing, which is, I believe, not showering for a few days because they're told online that it'll help attract the other sex. They're taking all of these supplements and doing all these crazy diets because supposedly it'll heal their acne. They're getting this stuff online, but also sometimes from their parents because their parents are also.

• 28:27Abbey Sharp?

  Online.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Online and just sort of in taking all of these sort of wellness ideas that aren't necessarily evidence-based. So, and basically, these teachers are put in these positions where, you know, they're kind of having to try to inform the kids, but sometimes are backed up by parents who believe these things themselves. So it's become very, very hard for them.

• 28:46Abbey Sharp?

  The echo chamber is so loud, once you're in it, that it's very hard to think critically and break outside. Okay, so this is all quite depressing, obviously. You know, I've got, I've got young Gen Alphas who are not on social media yet, and I'm going to just do whatever I can to delay that as long as I can. But is there anything hopeful that parents can take away from this?

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, one thing is that sort of the goopification of wellness is sort of on its way out. I think you'll notice we don't see as many ridiculous items. If you go back, you know, several years ago, it used to be like every week there was a new item that seemed like it was literally stripped from S seen on TV. It'd be like, it'd be like adaptogen ice cream and CBD toilet paper and, you know, charcoal infused cheddar cheese. And that's kind of died down for a number of reasons. And one is sort of Gen Z's influence. Gen Z is not as interested in this sort of productivity pressured perfectionist, glossy wellness that was really sort of identified with the millennial age group.

• 29:52Abbey Sharp?

  Yep.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  They're kind of rebelling against this sort of perfectionist mandate, and they're much more able to talk about sort of their flaws and. They don't want this pressure to be sort of perfectly happy, beautiful and healthy. They're a little bit more messy. And so they're kind of rejecting a lot of that. They think it's absolutely silly. So there is ways that they're sort of fighting back against that industry. The other thing is just that, you know, there's two big things that I think really impacted the general consumer, but also Gen Z. One is COVID. During COVID, a lot of us were sort of barred from these very expensive, you know, classes or going to Sephora shopping sprees. And people sort of realized it could sort of get the same effects with just, I don't know, a cup of tea or going on a walk with a friend.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  It really sort of made us reassess how we treat wellness and health in our lives. The second is that people are watching their wallets more. You know, they, by now, every woman I know has a beauty cabinet filled to the brim with useless CBD creams. Like, at a certain point, people become more skeptical because they bought too many useless products. So there are no, so now they're looking for evidence, they're looking for scientific studies. The flip side of that is that the industry has kind of sharpened to that. And now they're doing a bunch of science washing where they pretend products have the actual scientific backing that they do not have. But you're seeing Gen Z kind of reject a lot of the things that I think made wellness a lot more toxic for the millennial class.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  They have their own issues within wellness and trust me, they love their gummy supplements. But I think they've, but I think they sort of watered it down a little bit and made it a little less potent. And I think that's also why companies like Goop are just completely irrelevant now.

• 31:36Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  And, oh, well.

• 31:37Abbey Sharp?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Thank God. And also, Gen Z was raised by Gen X. And Gen X just happens to be a more skeptical cohort. They're just more skeptical of consumerism. Remember, they were always rallying against the man. So they've just been raised with a little bit of a more critical eye. And so I think they are having an impact. I mean, I know they're having an impact. I speak to brand analysts, I speak to companies. They are already starting to Pull back a little bit on the reins of sort of all of this ridiculous health marketing that's going to boost immunity and promise all these things. They're kind of bringing it in because it just doesn't appeal as much to Gen Z.

• 32:11Abbey Sharp?

  So true, and also a bit of a hopeful message for folks who do have kids in that cohort. And hopefully those Gen Zs can influence our Gen Alphas and, uh, and be, you know, all just, uh, get over this, this neck, this, this phase of life. So, thank you so much, Rena. This was incredibly insightful and, you know, scary to think about, but also like just very, very important. So, uh, I'll be leaving links in the show notes below for where folks can find you and your book. So, thank you again.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Fun.

• 32:41Abbey Sharp?

  Such a great conversation and one that I can fully relate to as a mom of two myself. You know, as parents, we want nothing more than for our kids to live healthy, happy lives. And while we maybe can't prevent like a genetic predisposition to disease, or spill on the soccer field, or a virus picked up at school, our kids' diet does feel at least somewhat within our control. But we can create structure and boundaries that can support our kids' healthy relationships with food and their body without the harm of rigid control. A few key strategies here are to model a balanced, pleasurable relationship with food and exercise, avoid dichotomous good versus bad language when it comes to our bodies and

• 33:25Abbey Sharp?

  foods, teach kids to critically evaluate what they're seeing online, and discuss the value of movement and nutritious foods beyond aesthetics and weight management. Raising healthy eaters is a long game, and we need to be thinking about the holistic wellbeing of our kids, not just in childhood, but as they grow up later on in life. And I don't know about you guys, but I care a lot more that my kids dodge an eating disorder or develop low self-esteem or food fears than I care about the amount of vitamin C in any given meal, or how many steps they took that night. But that's all we have for today, folks. Thank you again to Rena Raphael for helping me to bite back against diet culture.

• 34:09Abbey Sharp?

  Also, again, I would love if you would give me a five-star review and just like leave me a nice little comment because it really, really does help me out as a new podcast. Signing off with Science and SaaS, I'm Abby Sharp. Thanks for listening.

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