Olympic Coach Stuart McMillan On The Science Of Speed, Unlocking Your Body's True Potential & Why Sprinting Is The Ultimate Human Activity

Stuart McMillan is an elite track and field coach who has guided 70+ Olympians to over 30 medals across nine Olympic Games. As CEO of ALTIS, a global leader in sports education, he's revolutionized how we understand human movement. This conversation is an exploration of speed—not just as a metric, but as a kind of alchemy. At the heart of Stuart's philosophy is a powerful paradox: the marriage of ferocity and fluidity. Precision and artistry. Intensity and grace. We unpack why sprinting may be the ultimate human expression, how movement becomes a mirror for self-understanding, and why quality mechanics matter far beyond the track. Stuart is a master. This one might transform how you think about movement. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE⁠ ⁠Watch on YouTube⁠ ⁠Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% OFF your first order👉seed.com/RichRoll ROKA: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL👉ROKA.com/RICHROLL Birch Living: For 27% off ALL mattresses and 2 free eco-rest pillows 👉BirchLiving.com/richroll Ollie: Get 60% OFF your welcome kit with code RICHROLL👉Ollie.com/RICHROLL Calm: Unlock 40% OFF a Calm Premium Subscription👉calm.com/richroll Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com/host SHOKZ: Use code RICHROLL for $10 off your order👉shokz.com PPMP: Use code RICHROLL for $10 off your membership👉mealplanner.richroll.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  We need to figure out why you are really good. A good coach understands that. You have to know a little bit about this, a little bit about that. What's my joint structure like? What's my fiber type like? What's the stiffness like? What's my coordination like? We are going to move in ways that are determined and governed by the things that we are moving.

• 1:25Speaker 01

  If you're thinking your way through a 100-meter race or a 200-meter race...

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, you're done.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  You're finished. There's no time for it. Can't you just let it go and be peaceful? And then just run free or bounce the rest of the way? It's very few and far between where these truly elite athletes are also the truly elite coaches.

• 1:45Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. My guest today is Stuart McMillan, an elite track and field sprinting coach who has guided the careers and mentored the lives of more than 70 Olympians over nine Olympic Games to a medal haul that totals over 30, which is more hardware than most countries. But Stu's expertise isn't restricted to the track. He's coached and consulted athletes and coaching staff. ...in Premier League football, the NFL, National League Baseball, and much more, including Olympic bobsledders and skeleton athletes. So suffice it to say that Stu is an expert in high performance, and coaching is something he approaches as an art form, when he pursues to bring out the best of the athletes he

• 2:28Rich Roll?

  works with from a really holistic point of view that encompasses mindset, balance, and the yin yang of execution at the most elite level. We talk about sprinting, of course, what distinguishes it from running, or even running fast for that matter, and more importantly, why you should care, with actionable insights relevant to all of you out there who run and even those who don't. But the real meat and potatoes here are the many lessons that Stu has gleaned from his 30-plus-year career mentoring athletes at the upper echelon of sport. Lessons informed by sport but extend well beyond it and are applicable to all of us in all of our lives. Stu's a legend, it was an honor to learn from him, and my hope is that you find this

• 3:11Rich Roll?

  conversation both fascinating for its peek behind the curtain into this very interesting world in which he inhabits, but also valuable and actionable. You can find him online at altis.world, which is his coaching education platform, as well as on Instagram at Finger Mash and on Twitter at Stuart McMillan 1. So let's do this. This is me and Stu McMillan. Sprinters are a different breed. They are. Why are they so different? I'm just reflecting on like my experience in swimming and knowing, you know, there's just a joke, like, well, the sprinters, you know, like, that's just a different kind of human animal over there.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  They always have a unique relationship with the conditioning part of training and tend to be free spirits and also people who also seem to always have a better sense of what's right for them that often conflicts with traditional modalities of training. And I'm talking about like my experience way back, you know, in the late 80s and 90s, and it would appear That this translates into not, this isn't just a swimming thing, like this is a sprinter thing. Is that your experience or?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  The sprinters say the same thing about the distance athletes. Like, what is it with those weirdos?

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  But they're more, but they're more, but I think of distance athletes as more robotic and I think they're more open to following direction than sprinters are. Is that your experience or no?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  I think that's probably changed a little bit over the course of time. I feel like now we're so influenced by the NCAA where you're doing exactly what your leader tells you to do, whether you like it or not, that that now is embedded within the entirety of the system. And sprinters and jumpers and throwers and distance athletes are much more automatic, much more, I'm just gonna do what you tell me, coach. It's a little bit less.

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it sounds like you're saying that from a negative perspective, like that's not necessarily a good thing.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, no, 100%. Yeah, for sure.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  Sprinters are also performance artists. Like, there's a showmanship to sprinting that doesn't translate to the longer distances or to necessarily different disciplines. I mean, when you see Noah Wiles make his entrance into the stadium with the wardrobe and the suitcase and Snoop Dogg and the pearls in the hair and then, you know, the whole routine before he gets behind the starting blocks, the Pokemon card, like the whole, it's theater. It's incredible, right? You don't see this with athletes lining up to run a 50 kilometer trail, you know? But it gets the audience so engaged and so enthusiastic

• 6:11Rich Roll?

  about this event that is perhaps the most indelible in sport. Like, who is the fastest man? Who is the fastest woman?

• 6:20Speaker 01

  I don't agree.

• 6:21Rich Roll?

  You don't?

• 6:22Speaker 01

  No, I don't. I think it used to be that way. I think that's a bit of a myth now. I think a vast majority of the elite sprinters, male and female, are really boring. Really boring. But we see Noah Lyles and Sha'Carri Richardson.

• 6:37Rich Roll?

  And we translate that into thinking that is everybody.

• 6:41Speaker 01

  If you look at the 100 meter final in Paris last year, you've got one guy who's jumping around like a crazy man. And seven people are standing like this.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  That is true.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  And that's the history. And then saying, going back every Olympian. You've got Usain who's doing this and just playing around and being really playful, and seven others who are standing like this. And they don't have, honestly, like it's, most sprinters are pretty laid back, like really chill people, whether it be male or female. And then you've got the odd person like a Usain, or now like a Noah. Like Noah, I don't think Noah's being exactly inauthentic.

• 7:17Rich Roll?

  No, not at all.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  But I think he sees that one of his responsibilities of being, you know, the fastest man in the world, is how can I raise up this sport? How can I bring more eyes onto this sport? So he, you know, maybe he goes a little bit overboard with some of the things he does, you know, like the Snoop Dogg and the case and the Pokemon and all that sort of thing. It's still authentically him, but I think he's got a little bit of a different objective, where everybody else is just, I'm here just to race. I don't care about the sport. That's not my responsibility. And they're just being them. And in my experience, like, most people are just really calm. And there's two exceptions. Just Sha'Carri and Noah.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  Who capture all of the attention. Yeah. To be Sherry or Noah, you have to have a certain level of like self-confidence and self-belief. Like, there is an ego to like, the audacity to put yourself, you know, out there in that way. And yet, there's no way that you can compete at that level, at the highest level, without a healthy dose of humility. Like, you have to be humble and present and all of these things. Like, there is a yin yang to sport, and sprinting in particular, like, being entirely present while also being aware of how you're representing the sport

• 8:36Rich Roll?

  and what this, you know, kind of celebration around speed means to the world.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  I think it's a difficult one for many of the athletes. It's a difficult sort of line to navigate. You know, this where they have to, it's for me, and I say this to the athlete psych coach all the time. This is the hardest thing about this sport and why I love this sport so much. Because you cannot show up in the sport and just be at ninety-nine percent and just, you know, push as hard as you possibly can minus one percent, but relaxed and fluid and rhythmical. You have to have maximum ferocity and maximum fluidity. And if you don't, you've got no shot.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  No shot.

• 9:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  And it's, I mean, that is, that's the case with every event, every sport, almost.

• 9:22Rich Roll?

  Except that the margin of error is zero.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:26Rich Roll?

  Right? So, everything is heightened.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. So, it's only those that are so confident in their capacity to do this at the highest level, with maximum level of arousal, with a billion people watching them.

• 9:40Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Those are the people that win.

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That tension, that yin yang, like, you have to output to the best of your ability, put the push part, right? But your best performances are gonna be in that state of easy, you know, easiness, like ease and flow and fluidity, you know? And how do you balance those two things? It's like, it's an alchemy.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. I mean, across the board, they say, after the best performances, how did that feel? I don't know. Hundred percent of the time, I don't know how that felt. Or you ask them about how they felt or what they were thinking about in their best performances. I don't really know.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  Because you're, you're, you're, well, you have to, you have to coach presence.

• 10:24Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Rich Roll?

  They don't know because they were so present in the experience, you know?

• 10:30Speaker 01

  A little bit easier said than done.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Which also, I mean, that's also why some of the best athletes make for the worst interviews and podcast guests, because they don't necessarily know how to explain what they do or how they do it. They're doers.

• 10:44Speaker 01

  And they often make for the worst coaches.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  Tell me more.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Because they know the know-how, not the know-what. They know how they did that thing. They just went out and expressed themselves maximally and did the thing that they've done a thousand million times. They don't know what it was. They can't explain that to somebody else. Well, just do this. What do you mean, just do this? I can't do that. And it's very few and far between where the truly elite athletes are also the truly elite coaches.

• 11:13Rich Roll?

  What is the key or the multiple key differentiators between the absolute peak of excellence in your world and the person who's unbelievably good but is never going to take that final step?

• 11:30Speaker 01

  It's what we've been talking about the last five or 10 minutes. It's that piece of it. Most elite athletes have very similar capacities, very similar ability to produce force, fast, in the right direction. Most of them are really technically, you know, superior. It's the ones that can do that at incredibly intense levels of arousal. Those are the one, that's the separator. We've seen that all the time, you know, all the time, in all sports, right? And it's such a difficult thing to train because the only opportunity they get to actually express themselves at that level of arousal is in those races. That in our sport come about maybe once a year at world championships or, you know, even more than that, once every four years. So how do you train for that?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  I say, go back to that question. It's really, really hard. It's one thing saying, I want you to be present and just focus on this and, you know, what your breath and whatever it is that we talk about, you know, working their way through the race. But it's another thing to actually do that and be able to still express yourself maximally while you're doing it.

• 12:33Rich Roll?

  But your job is to deconstruct that and figure out a way to train that. So how do you do that?

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. I spent about 40 years trying to figure that out. If you've got an answer, please let me know. Yeah, it's great. I mean, that's the one thing about this job that I really enjoy is that balance, that yin and yang, you know? I'm known as a bit of a technician as a coach. I think mechanics matter. I think the way that you move really matters. I think effective movement and the quality of movement is really, really important. But that's all trumped by the efficiency and the fluidity and just running and just moving and being present. So it's marrying those two things. So when we're on the track and we're in training, we're trying to get the athlete to move in as an effective way as he possibly can for them as an individual. And then what we try to do, and there might

• 13:24Speaker 01

  be some queuing involved in that, you know, drive the knees forward, you know, dorsiflex your feet, you know, be active on the ground, you know, something with the arms or the carriage of the head or the breath or what have you, right? We've got this long list of different internal and external cues that we use. But what we try to do is we try to attach those cues with an emotion. And over the course of time, because if you're thinking your way through a 100 meter race or 200 meter race.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  Oh, you're done.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  You're finished. You're finished. There's just no time for it. But if you can just connect with the emotion, and if we've in training connected that emotion with all this long list of cues, then those cues just sort of come along for the ride when you're thinking about that emotion. So in 100 meters, for example, the first 30 meters of it, one of the emotions we talk about is pressure. So just try to apply as much pressure as you possibly can. And that doesn't work for everybody. Sometimes it's force, sometimes it's power, sometimes it's whatever. But pressure is one that I really like. And then, once you can no longer apply any more pressure, can you just let it go and be peaceful? Or find freedom? And then just run free or bounce the rest of the way? So you've got

• 14:31Speaker 01

  these emotions, these mood words that you can connect to, and then this laundry list of technical instructions just come along for the ride.

• 14:40Rich Roll?

  The technique has to be so internalized and so remote that it doesn't involve thought processes, but can be triggered by that cue.

• 14:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 14:49Rich Roll?

  That emotional cue. That's interesting. It's sort of like an actor going off book, an actor who has trained for many years with technique, and then reads the script and rehearses it a million times so they don't have to think about what the words are. And then onstage or on camera, it's like the cue is pressure or whatever, and the body just sort of adapts that stance.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  You know, the human system's a self-organizing system. And, you know, when I reach over here to pick up this, I'm not thinking about what I'm doing with my arm and my fingers and grasping it. I just do that. It's the same thing with sprinting, or any movement. You're just thinking about the outcome of that movement, and you find your body just self-organizes into the most efficient way to do it. So that's what I mean, like efficiency is the key. But that doesn't mean that there's no rules. You still have to do it with an effective technique. So it's always marrying those two things.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  Your background is super interesting because you were an athlete. You played soccer and you were a sprinter. But you like went to art school and you're a DJ. You had a radio show. And when I think of that, I think, well, this guy, you know, is stepping into this world as an artist. Like your medium are these young people, right? That you're shaping and they're your canvas. Like you're taking this very artistic approach to like, how do I take this person? This talented athlete and, you know, dial it up and tune it in so that they can, you know, do their performance art.

• 16:18Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 16:19Rich Roll?

  It's pretty cool.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  You know what? It took me quite a long time to start thinking of it that way. Think when I started coaching, and by the way, you said I was a sprinter. I was not a sprinter. I was a really, really bad sprinter. So if anybody's listening.

• 16:31Rich Roll?

  You ran sprints.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  That knew me back then.

• 16:34Rich Roll?

  I assure you, you're probably faster than most people, but go, keep going.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I was terrible. I was a pretty good soccer player. I was really, when I started, you know, my dad's a civil engineer. And I'm very structured. My brain sort of works that way as well. So I was very much about this needs to make sense. It's all linear. It's this and it's that and it's this and then it's that and this and that. So you've got this periodized program over the course of, you know, like it's a math problem. And it took me probably a couple of decades to figure out, you know, human beings are not math problems. They're human beings, you know? And here's an opportunity now to flex those creative muscles that I do have. You know, like I was, I was an artist. I did go to art school. DJed for 25, 30 years. Like I've, this is, and I feel like that's whatever success that I've had. It's been because of the marrying of those two things.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  The scientific part of me, the structured part of me, the linear thought processes. But also my capacity to understand this is a nonlinear thing. These are nonlinear, complex systems that we're dealing with and we've got to respect that.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  There is engineering involved, but it's not an engineering problem. Otherwise you could just give people a program and you would get the, you could predict the result and the result would track every time.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  And how boring, how boring would that be?

• 17:46Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Like people.

• 17:48Rich Roll?

  But also probably frustrating at times, too.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. Like, a lot of coaches say, man, wouldn't it be so great if that's what it was? I would say, no.

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:55Speaker 01

  Why would that be great?

• 17:56Rich Roll?

  Well, AI would replace you quickly.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  So I love the creative aspect to this, you know, it's a puzzle. Every athlete's a puzzle, the interaction's a puzzle, everything that we're working on is a puzzle. And it's our job, what's the most important puzzle for us today to try and solve?

• 18:12Rich Roll?

  Beyond the technique side of things and the conditioning side of things, what is the most challenging and interesting puzzle when it comes to deconstructing the athlete and trying to figure out what makes them tick so that you can guide them in a way that, in a language that they can hear and adhere to?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  You know, so I own this company called Altus, and our head coach, his name's Dan Pfaff. You may know Dan, I've heard of Dan, like he's a very legendary track and field coach, he's in his seventies.

• 18:42Rich Roll?

  He's your mentor, yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  He's my mentor, I met him in the mid nineties. And I met him in 1995, he was coaching one of my best friends at the time, Donovan Bailey, still is one of my best friends. I asked Dan, like, what is the key to being a great coach? Like, what is it that makes you really good at what you're doing? And he says, well, it's understanding that coaching is more about just this biomechanics, or the physiology, or the psychology, or the nutrition, it's all of that. And more than all of that is, it's understanding how all of these things interact in space and time. So a good coach understands that you have to know a little bit about this, a little bit about that, a little bit of this, a little bit about that, a little bit of this and a little bit about that. So for me, I've taken that throughout my entirety of my career now.

• 19:25Speaker 01

  And at the start of every year, we sit down with the athletes and we explain what the health and performance system looks like. And we ask them, we have, we try to get the athletes to lead this. And I say, Rich, first we talk about what the objective is, like, what are you trying to get done this year? And then how are you gonna do that? And typically, they'll say, well, we're gonna train a certain way, we'll train hard, and we do whatever, and we'll talk about training. So, yep, great, perfect. What else are you gonna have to do? Well, we're probably gonna have to recover from the training. And what does that mean? Well, I mean, we have to sleep, and we have to do, maybe get some massage, and so on and so forth. Great, what else do you have to do? And then after some thought, maybe they'll come up with, well, we probably have to fuel well. What does that mean? Well, we have to eat good food, and good timing, and blah, blah, blah. I say, yeah, perfect. And what else is there?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Like, what else is maybe gonna constrain your ability to reach this objective? Well, maybe, and most of them can get this one as well. Well, maybe it's something to do with my psychology, my mental resilience. Great. Now, what else? Is there anything else in this big health and performance system that we have to try to navigate over the course of this year? And many of them say, well, you know, it's good that maybe I've got some social support, my friends and my family, and I'm doing some things outside of the tracks. Great, perfect. So that gives us five things to work on. So we have these five things in the health and performance system that we start. And we rank, and the athletes actually rank out of 10, where they feel they sit on each of these component parts of the system. And if they say, well, right now, I'm about a seven out of 10 on physical.

• 20:53Speaker 01

  I'm about six out of 10 on the nutrition and the food. I'm a nine out of 10 on my recovery and regeneration. My mental resiliency is great. I'm a 10 out of 10 on that. And I've got a great familial support, and I've got great friends, and so on and so forth. And that gives us a ranking, like a hierarchical ranking of all the things that we feel are important. And then we break those pieces down. And where can, within this, then, can we improve? What is it about your food, or your fueling, or your recovery regeneration, what have you, that we can make the most changes right now that's going to help you? So this becomes the puzzle. And this is one of the rules of complex systems. Any attempt to optimize a single part of a complex system comes at the expense of the entirety of the system as a whole.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  We see that all the time, where athletes over-focus on one piece of the system. And because of that, it pulls the entire system kind of out of whack a little bit. They forget about these other pieces that are also really important. So our objective is always, can you be an eight out of 10 on all things? And once you're that, all right, can we be an eight and a half? Can we be a nine? Can we be a nine and a half? Understanding that we're never going to optimize any one single thing. But that gives us, it gives us not only an outline and a structure to the entire year, but also an outline and a structure to every conversation that we have there.

• 22:10Rich Roll?

  Right, and a built-in accountability system for that. But implicit in all of that is buy-in and involvement with the athlete. Like, this is very different from, you know, my generation as an athlete. Like, you show up, the coach tells you what to do, and you do it. And what you're sharing is very much a collaborative relationship in which...

• 22:33Rich Roll?

  You're saying to the athlete, like, you tell me, you know, and let's work with you towards this goal that we that we have. Like, it's almost an inception. Like, maybe you are calling all the shots, but you're giving them.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm not calling the shots at all.

• 22:45Rich Roll?

  But like, you know, it's like, okay, you said this is what you want, and you're sharing with me, these are the ways in which you want to move forward. And so I'm here to support to support that. But the idea is being led by the athlete.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  There's three big things that we talk about at the start of the year. One is, we need to figure out why you are really good. And we train you towards that thing. So let's have a conversation about that. Number two is, this is a partnership. This is me and you working together. This isn't me directing this. I'm helping, I'm guiding you, I'm facilitating this. But this is always going to be an ongoing conversation. And number three is what you alluded to, which is the most important thing is, you need to believe 100% in yourself, everything you do, your support team, all the things that that are around this, and me as your coach and the program that you're that you're buying into. Without those three things, you're not, you're not going to reach these objectives. So it's 100%. Like, that

• 23:44Speaker 01

  for me is everything. Now, that's a little bit different if I'm coaching 14-year-olds. 14-year-olds is not a 50-50 partnership. It's probably a 98-2. You know, it's still, they're going to have some autonomy into some of the things that we do. I think that's still important. But it's not 50-50. But the more experience that we have with athletes, and maybe I'm starting with a 20-year-old. You know, I coached a boss named Steve Messler, three-time Olympian, ended up winning a gold medal in 2010. And at the start of the program in 2002, 2001, I was a different coach. I mean, it's a long time ago. I'm a director. I'm telling him exactly what to do. 10 years later, he's telling me exactly what he's going to do. And he won an Olympic gold medal. You know, that's, that's really, truly, that

• 24:27Speaker 01

  should be the nature of a coach-athlete relationship over the course of time.

• 24:31Rich Roll?

  So, under this rubric, what are the characteristics of the athlete that thrives in that type of environment and the ones that struggle?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I've actually struggled with this as well. Because I don't like coaching automatons that just want to be told what to do. Like, I don't find that... You know, I can see what they can't see, but they can feel what I can't feel. So that back and forth is really important for me. So when I'm coaching athletes that just want to be told what to do, typically that doesn't work for me. I coached a really, really elite sprinter who's now got seven Olympic gold medals... Oh, I'm sorry, seven Olympic medals. And he was that way. He just wanted to be told what to do. He wasn't interested in the system or what he needed to know or do to have a long-term sustainable career. And I only coached him for three years because of that.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Now, he's had a long-term sustainable career because he's found out over the course of time, yeah, this is important, and I need to ask these questions, be a better actor or partner in this relationship. But I find it out really, really, really hard. You know, when I'm talking to athletes that I may be entering into a new relationship with, I make sure that they're on that same boat. Is this something that you're also interested in? Or are you just interested in being told what to do? Because you can succeed both ways. If you are only interested in being told what to do, that doesn't necessarily mean you're not going to succeed. There's plenty of people that succeed that way. It's just not going to succeed with me.

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. In your experience, what are some of the common mistakes that coaches make?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 26:19Rich Roll?

  I ask that intentionally in the broadest of ways.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:24Rich Roll?

  I mean, I feel, I would say, as a preface to that, like, coaching philosophy has come a long way, you know? And it seems to me, you don't see, like, the bad behavior coaches in the way that you used to, but that doesn't mean that everybody understands how to coach at the level that you're coaching.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think it has come a long way. And I think it has come a long way, especially in collegiate ranks. And maybe Europe and other places. I mean, there's some really good coaching going on, for sure, in all sports. I feel like there's probably two or three really... Significant things that I think coaching as a whole, and coaches as a whole can do significantly better. One of it is this, stop being a director and start thinking of your role as being a guide or facilitator. And coaching, especially in this country, has always been, you know, the coach is an authority figure, you know?

• 27:25Speaker 01

  And there's no autonomy for the athlete. And that can work, and it does work. Especially in the NCAA, you know, you've got quite a lot of, you know, directors in the NCAA that just tell you what to do. And for short term, that can definitely work. But long term, I don't feel that works well, meaning you may succeed that way. But I don't think that's really setting you up to be having a healthy relationship with the sport, enjoying your experience in the sport, maybe even enjoying your life. I feel like that is really, really important, and I think a lot of coaches don't understand that. A coach often sees their role as, I'm coaching you, Rich, I want you to win. Mm-hmm. And that's it.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  And forgetting, and maybe even ignoring that, maybe that's not what you exactly want from your experience in sport. Winning might be important to you, but maybe having spend, spending time with friends might be just as important. Or finding out more about yourself through this expression of sprinting or jumping or throwing or whatever, might be more important, or traveling might be more important, all of these different things. So I feel like coaches can do a better job of having these conversations with athletes and trying to understand what it is that they are trying to get out of this thing that they're doing. So we can support that, that's our role. Rather than telling you what's important to me and just assuming that's important to you as well. So number one is that. Number two, I think, is from a technical perspective, and we see this across, across the board, on all sports, at all levels, especially at the professional level.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Is coaches coaching athletes as if they are the average of all the athletes that they coach? So not coaching individuals, coaching the average of all the individuals. So whether that being from a technical perspective, a programming perspective, a mental resilience and emotional psychology, psychological perspective, not treating the person as an individual, I think is the biggest error that I see in all coaching across the board. So those are probably the two biggest things for me.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  That's a scalability problem, though, you know, because not everybody can have their own coach and program tailored specifically for them.

• 29:30Speaker 01

  For sure, I agree with that. If you're coaching, say, a soccer team, you've got 25 players, you can't have 25 separate programs for 25 players. But you can still talk to them about what is important to them and treat them a little bit differently, especially at professional levels, and we don't do that well at all. You know, like, there's some of the best coaches in the world, you know, they do a really bad job of that. You either fit into the system, or you go find another system to fit into. And I find, you know, at least in my experience, my opinion, that that's not what coaching is. Coaching is now, like, if I've got 25 players, 20 of them might work pretty well with this system, and five of them, I'm gonna have to figure out a way to get the best out of

• 30:14Speaker 01

  those five. That's the objective. It's not about, all right, get rid of those five and bring in another five, you know? That's the biggest issue I have with so many people who've, you know, whether it be Instagram experts or whatever, saying, this is how you get better at this thing technically.

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Well, how do you know?

• 30:33Rich Roll?

  I was gonna ask you about how you navigate the landscape of, you know, online, not necessarily misinformation, but maybe not the best information when it comes to stuff that you actually know about.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  I try my best to ignore it, I really do. Like, if I see something, oh, man, like, I don't like how you're doing this, I blocked that person and mute that person so I'd never see it again.

• 30:56Rich Roll?

  You have to deal with it.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  I've had this conversation with a number of colleagues about whether it's the responsibility for coaches and coach educators to not only point people towards good things, but also point them away from bad things.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  And that's tricky. You know, because that's a slippery slope when you start doing that. You know, what is a bad thing even? You know, and who am I to even say that that's a bad thing? So I tend to just focus on the positive side. This is what I feel is important. If you don't, that's okay.

• 31:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm just thinking of Steve Magnus. He goes, you know, face first and do a lot of these things.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  He does, yeah.

• 31:34Rich Roll?

  And God bless him.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:36Rich Roll?

  That, you know, that, that front line is not for everyone.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  No, it's not. It's not, I'm not interested in it. But great, Steve. I love that you're doing it.

• 31:44Rich Roll?

  In many cases, you or someone like you, who is in, you know, a role similar to the role that you play, you're the most important adult figure in these young people's lives. Maybe in certain cases, more important than their parents. And so there is a role that you're playing and a responsibility, perhaps, that you're shouldering to mold these athletes as human beings and as people. Like, do you think about that? Do you have a philosophy around that? Because off the track, like, your influence is carrying into the rest of their lives.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It's, uh, it's interesting. I used to be, um, really clear on this, that my responsibility begun and ended with the physical piece or the health and performance piece. And that was it. But you're right. I mean, it's probably more than that.

• 32:35Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's convenient to tell yourself that.

• 32:37Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And it's a much easier job. It's still a really, really difficult job, by the way. I'm educated as a coach. I'm not educated as a life coach or a mentor for young people. So they're dealing with things that, you know, that's, uh, it's not my scope of practice here. I can be a good role model. I can, I can have conversations with you and I can be supportive and try to create an environment in which you're a part of and training within that is positive and you can feel supported and, and, and great within. But I think, you know, it's really challenging to, for a coach also, to have a significant amount of responsibility on the other 120, 130 hours a week that we're not seeing. It's hard.

• 33:20Rich Roll?

  But mindset is such a big piece of this.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 33:23Rich Roll?

  And however you're carrying that message or trying to, you know, instill the best mindset possible for them to perform at that level, that's something that is crucial throughout the rest of their life and that those people will turn to and rely upon in their decision making throughout the course of the rest of their life.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:45Rich Roll?

  I mean, maybe it's too, you think about it that way and it's like too much, but.

• 33:48Speaker 01

  No, but it's the job, right?

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  It is true.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  And so obviously you're teaching them, you know, important life skills in addition to, you know, track and field skills or sprinting skills.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  I think it's even difficult to disentangle their identity as an athlete and them as a human being. You know, anybody who's a master what they do, that there's a lot of crossover there, you know? I don't know how recent this was. There was an interview with the coach of the Boston Celtics and I'm blanking on his name. And one of the interviewers said, "You're a basketball coach." And then went to ask his question. And I think his name's Joe. I don't remember his last name. But he interrupted the interviewer and said, "I'm not a basketball coach."

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And he said, "I'm a human being who coaches basketball." And he talked about this separation. It was actually a really intelligent, well-thought-through answer. But I feel like, you know what? You're a basketball coach. Like, your identity is so entangled within being a basketball coach that it's really hard for you to disentangle that, you know? Like, that is it. I'm a coach. I'm a track and field coach and a coach educator. And these athletes at this level are track and field athletes and their identity as an athlete is so tied in with their identity as a human that that can become problematic. And sometimes it's a coach's role to better understand when that is becoming problematic

• 35:12Speaker 01

  and help the athlete disentangle that, that they go out and lose a race and they've just that ruins their next week. It's just a race, man.

• 35:21Rich Roll?

  Sure, these are attachments, right? Your attachment to your identity as an athlete, your attachment to achieving a certain goal. And on some level, these are helpful, you know, to anchor yourself in who you are and what you're striving towards, but they become unhealthy when you don't reach that goal and it's a threat to that identity, like who you are as a human being as opposed to something you just did or didn't do. It's still, it's back to the push and the pull, right?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 35:50Rich Roll?

  As hard as you have to push, you have to, you know, in equal parts, release.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:55Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's also accepting that there's something inherently unhealthy about being the best in the world at almost anything.

• 36:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you said that, like, you had some tweet or something like, yeah, this shouldn't be a controversial statement that like being an athlete at this level might not be the healthiest thing for people to do.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  It's not, it's not.

• 36:17Rich Roll?

  So tell me, tell me more about that.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  It's an obsession. You have to be obsessed by it. It's easy to say that you've got to disconnect and be balanced, but how do you do that when it is your obsession? And part of you being really good at this is because you are obsessed by it.

• 36:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not winning an Olympic gold medal because you're living a balanced life.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  No, you're not, you're not. You've got another 80 years to live a balanced life, you know, after that. Now, I'm not saying that balance isn't important. We talk about, you know, as I said before, this five component part health and performance system, that there needs to be some sort of dynamic balance between all of these component parts. And within that is included the community that you're a part of and your friends and family and you feel supported. It's really important, but it's also really important not only to be healthy human, but understanding that that being a healthy human... If you're not, it's constraining your ability to actually perform.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Also, the tension between what serves the short-term goal and what serves the long-term goal.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Hundred percent.

• 37:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it goes back to what the athlete's objective is. You know, are you in this to... Is it short-term for you? Are you trying to win an Olympic medal? Or are there other objectives? And what does the hierarchical list look like for you? Like, not everybody's doing the sport to win the Olympics. As you know, you know? So what is it? And we have to understand that, and then we support that. And for those that may, you know, "I just want to have some friends, I want to compete, I want to find out more about myself, I want to travel, I want to do this." Great. We can support that, too.

• 37:55Rich Roll?

  When you're an athlete at that high level, does anybody say that?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:59Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:01Rich Roll?

  Because I just assume they all are like, "I'm going to the Olympics."

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 38:04Rich Roll?

  "You're the guy who's going to take me there."

• 38:05Speaker 01

  But that's the story that they've been told since they were five. Right? And then they see it, and they start living it, saying, "Okay, is this really what I want?" You know, when they start doing the work to try to figure out their motivation, like, why are they still doing this thing? Rather than just doing this thing because they were the best in school at it. They start asking themselves these more existential questions. And they say, "Ah, it isn't that. It's this, this, this, and this instead." And many of them are forced to ask those questions because they're just miserable. They're not enjoying it anymore.

• 38:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:37Speaker 01

  You know, they got into the sport because they enjoyed it. Now they're doing it because they want to go to the Olympics. Not everybody wants to go to the Olympics.

• 38:44Rich Roll?

  You have said that sprinting is the ultimate human activity.

• 38:50Rich Roll?

  So justify that statement.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'll ask you. Do you know of any single metric that is a better measure for overall health and vitality than the ability to go out and maximally run?

• 39:08Speaker 01

  To be able to run maximally, like go out in the street right now and after a 10-minute warm-up, you can run as fast as you can.

• 39:15Rich Roll?

  I mean, probably not.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  I don't think there is. It's a proxy for so many other different things. If you can do that, you can move your body in so many different ways. And you can, you know, you can explore the world in so many different ways. So for me, that's why I feel like it's the ultimate activity. You don't have to sprint. It's not like, okay, you've got to start a sprinting program now and sprint five days a week. It's not that. It's can you do it? Do you still have the capacity to do it? Most of us lose that capacity at 15, 20, 25, maybe?

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You know? So this is the answer to the next question, I guess, on some level, which is like, you're a sprint coach. Like, my audience is full of average people, you know, many of whom are probably not interested in sprinting at all. Like, why should we care about this? Like, why should we care about understanding sprinting?

• 40:05Speaker 01

  I think you should care about being free to move your body in as many different ways as you want to. And not having, not being constrained by a body that cannot do those things. And I feel like that's really important. You have that freedom when you're young. And then we start losing that freedom. And we start being dictated to by a commodified fitness industry about what health and wellness and movement is about. And then 10 years later, we can no longer move in free ways and express ourselves with freedom. And that's a very slippery slope to not being able to move well at all. So I feel like it's not, again, it's not about sprinting.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  It's just about exploring, moving your body in as many different ways as you possibly can. That's the, it's the key to long-term health and wellness, you know, variability and adaptability.

• 40:58Rich Roll?

  What is the difference between sprinting and running? And even more than that, the difference between sprinting and running fast?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Let's zoom out and let's say the difference between sprinting and running from a health perspective. Most people who are listening do some sort of running or jogging. And short term, that's a pretty safe activity. It's one of the reasons why we do it. And long term, maybe not really safe. We know the statistics around health of running and jogging. Between 40 and 60% of all runners hurt every single year. That's pretty high. Sprinting's the opposite. Short term, acutely, there's some danger there. There's some significant risk. But long term, there's some really, really big upsides.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  So from that perspective, I feel, okay, that's one way to describe the differences. Why is that? Because sprinting, you're applying far more forces through greater ranges of motion, much faster. It requires much more coordination through the entirety of the system. Where jogging is nowhere near as much force, nowhere near as much velocity, nowhere near as much range of motion. And instead of having to coordinate through the entire system, we just have to basically coordinate through the foot and ankle and the calf complex, and that's it. And the rest of the body just goes along for the ride. By the way, I'm not down on jogging. I jog. I run every day. I feel like it's really, if you enjoy it, it's good for you. It feeds your soul and you can remain healthy. Go and run.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  But I feel like you also need to sprint.

• 42:38Rich Roll?

  From a biomechanical perspective, though, there is more difference than I think people would realize between running fast and what would technically be called sprinting.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's always, some of it's semantics, you know? Like, I get annoyed, and that's just me, you know, being annoyed for no reason really by the pop scientists espousing a certain protocol. It's a sprint for 60 seconds and then take 60 seconds off. No one in the planet...

• 43:08Rich Roll?

  The derivative ultimate workout, right? This is all you need to do?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Nobody on the planet is sprinting for sixty seconds.

• 43:16Rich Roll?

  Shocking that would bother you.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. Or even twenty seconds, you know, you're not sprinting, you're jogging. Or you're running fast, or you're running as fast as you can. So there's, the biggest difference is like the, the basic one, you know, away from being just semantics, is the amount of time, uh, space that you're taking up in the world. Like sprinting, you've got, you've taken up much more space. Like it's just bigger range of motion. Uh, as I said, it's much more force and much more velocity. For me, the, the biggest thing or the most important thing, it's sprinting is a coordinated activity. A full body coordination. Where running is a little less coordination because you're spending much more time on the ground. So it's not as important how you coordinate what's going on at the foot and ankle, what's going on at the knee and what's going on at the hip. But for sprinting, that's really important.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  So that's, that's the main sort of non-semantic or sort of less scientific reason. Uh, if, if you wanna call it sprinting, go ahead and call it sprinting. Running as fast as you can, if you wanna call that sprinting, you can call it sprinting. I'm not gonna get annoyed anymore at that. But, um, the one thing that the elite sprinters do, that no one else can do, is they create this negative foot speed. So meaning the foot is coming back underneath the center mass, almost faster than the horizontal velocity of the center mass. So the center mass is moving horizontally and you're moving the foot back at that same velocity and you're creating the secondary mass. It's called the two mass model. It's, it's developed by a friend of mine named Dr. Ken Clark.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  And how, the, the elite sprinters are able to create the secondary mass of up to about ten percent of the total ground reaction forces. That's sprinting. That is one model, the two mass model. That's available to less than a thousandth of a percentage of the population. Everyone else, including me and you, have a, what's called a spring mass model, where we just hit the ground like a spring and we just spring off. We hit the ground like a spring, we just spring off. There's no secondary mass. So the, the most that we can get out of our system is about ninety percent of it. That's it.

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  And is that rare version something that can be taught?

• 45:19Speaker 01

  I wish it was.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  This is a gift. You're like, this is a gift.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's one of those things where if you don't have the capacity to do that, good luck. It's really, really hard. The ability to time the impact on, and it's not a capacity thing. It's not, you just gotta get a little bit stronger or work on the velocity of, of your, of your foot as it comes back. It's a coordination thing. It involves the timing of the impact into the ground. That happens in a thousandths of a second. It's so hard. It's something that Noah Lyles does better than everybody else on the planet. And that's why he's the fastest man. But it's and it's something that a guy that can run 99 doesn't do as well as he does.

• 45:58Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  It is the differentiating factor in elite sprinting.

• 46:03Rich Roll?

  The difference between really good and the best.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 46:08Rich Roll?

  And that gap will never be bridged through conditioning and technique.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  It's really, really hard, really hard, but we try.

• 46:15Rich Roll?

  Just like a drummer with timing or, you know, a singer with a certain pitch. These things are just things that certain people come into the world.

• 46:22Speaker 01

  You can get better at them, right? I mean, you can, you can drum better. Your rhythm can get better. If you, if you can't dance.

• 46:27Rich Roll?

  Fundamentally, it's one of those things like, you know, that woman or that guy has it.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 46:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  You can, you can either dance or you can't. And if you can't dance, you can become a better dancer. But you're not going to be, you're not ever going to have the coordination of the rhythm that a great dancer has.

• 46:41Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Or a singer or a drummer.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  When you were on Huberman the other week, he opened it up by talking a little bit about you guys being out at the Malibu High School track and you being able to identify, you know, a kid across the track who, you know, kind of stood out like, oh, that guy has something these other kids don't. I'm not, I'm not saying he had that very special thing, but, but just an innate kind of predisposition for this type of activity.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's pretty obvious pretty immediately. We had a kid from high school actually join us last year for a, so an athlete we used to coach, his friend had a kid that wanted to know whether he had a future as a sprinter or a football player. So they asked, they asked us to have a look at him for a week and, and basically give them some advice on whether he should be a sprinter in the NCAA or should, should he go down the football route? And he came out and his, his name's Jeb Moon and he's like, he's so coordinated. Like his just his rhythm and his timing is beautiful. He just bounces off the track and he's small and skinny. So it was pretty, it was a pretty easy answer for me. I said, all right, this guy can definitely be a runner.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  I don't know if he can be a sprinter, but he has the coordination, the rhythm and the timing to be able to do that. And then, you know, less than a year later now, like he's getting thirty, forty looks from NCAA programs because he's gone all in on the running part. He's going to be an elite eight hundred meter guy. And it was clear immediately, you just watch him run down the track and you'll see it. You go to any track meet, you go to, you go to a marathon, you'll see the guys and the girls at the start of the marathon and just bounce for twenty six miles and the ones at the end, it just looks like a slog. I mean, there's a massive difference and it's not only capacity. Capacity is important, but most of the difference that we see, the aesthetic differences we see is just, you know, people watching is that coordinate factor, that coordination, the rhythm and the timing.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  They've just got something that is so hard to coach, so hard to improve.

• 48:40Rich Roll?

  And then within that, there's a whole universe in which you can counsel, teach, coach and hone and improve technique. And there's no sport in which technique is coming into play, you know, in such a material way as sprinting.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. However, you look at eight finalists in the Olympic, Olympic final, all of them, the eight best in the world, move in eight different ways.

• 49:11Rich Roll?

  And there's a, there's a wider variation in body type than you would expect.

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Massive.

• 49:16Rich Roll?

  Like you look at Noah Lyles and you look at Usain Bolt, they don't look like they're in the same sport.

• 49:20Speaker 01

  Well, look at Christian Coleman and Usain Bolt. Christian Coleman's five foot seven, Usain Bolt's six foot five. They're pretty similar performers or were, you know, they're, yeah, I mean, Zarnell Hughes, six foot three, Trevon Bremel, five foot, five foot seven. I mean, it's, you know, they're all over the shop. We are going to move in ways that are determined and governed by the things that we are moving. You know, I'm going to move differently than you. I'm a little bit skinnier than you and a little bit taller than you. Those are the obvious things that we can see. But all these other things as well, you know, what's my joint structure like? What's my fiber type like? What's my force capacity like? What's the stiffness like? What's my coordination like? All of these things govern how we move. And so our job as coaches is to try to understand what is it unique about you?

• 50:05Speaker 01

  That I can really understand so I can get you moving how you need to be moving, not what I feel like you should be moving. And that's the hardest thing for me.

• 50:13Rich Roll?

  So in the context of a typical training cycle with one of your athletes, how would it break down percentage-wise between time invested in drills and technique versus conditioning?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  Everything is everything. Yeah, everything that we do, we're trying to do as technically proficient as we possibly can. So whether that's a walk around the track, whether that's a skip, whether that's a stride, whether it's a sprint, an acceleration, any sort of drill. So we don't separate, okay, we're going to warm up and now we're going to do some technical work and then we're going to do the main part of the session when we don't think about it. We think about how you move from step one to the time we get in the car. There's no separation there.

• 50:57Rich Roll?

  And like back to the actor thing, it's method acting. You're taking it home with you.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. And again, it's different athletes are at different levels of their journey here. Some of them are technically extremely good. Like if you look at a model of what you would think is the most effective way to, you know, make a jump shot or throw a football or sprint. Yeah, that person is that. And then at that point, what are we doing? We're just encouraging and reminding and maybe putting in things that ensures that they, you know, don't get too far away from that. But the rest of it is just trying to impact efficiency and coordination in ways where we're going to challenge that model in a different way.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  You know what's really ironic about that? Obviously, there's a heightened attunement to technique in sprinting because the smallest differences are all the differences. But if you look at endurance sports like a marathon or imagine a 50 miler or 100 miler. If you paid more attention to technique, you attuned yourself to that. That would translate into like just unbelievable gains, right? Like just life-changing amount of improvement. And yet, these sports are far less attuned to technique.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  It took decades for even the best coaches of middle-distance athletes to figure that out. Oh, technique matters. You know, and that's, these are the best coaches of the best athletes in the world. They know that now. And, you know, not all of the best middle-distance coaches in the world are all in on mechanics. But most of them are at this point. In 100 meters, the fastest men take about 40 to 45 steps. And the fastest women take about 45 to 50 steps or about 50 to 55. I don't know how many steps there are in a marathon or 100 miler. But it's a lot.

• 52:54Rich Roll?

  But like whatever tiny marginal gain that you're getting in sprinting, like if you, if you made a technique shift and it becomes rote and intuitive and it allows you to run more efficiently or more swiftly. Yeah, that translates into massive performance gains.

• 53:10Speaker 01

  And health.

• 53:11Rich Roll?

  And yet, it really is sort of an afterthought, I think, still. Which is exciting because once that enters that world, you could expect to see some real leaps.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  It goes back to kind of what we were saying before. You know, what's the solution for that? There's social media coaches that say, do these drills. And that's your technical work, right? And that's going to magically make your technique better. You'll just do five minutes of drills before you go do your run or 10 minutes of drills. It doesn't work that way. You get better by moving in a better way. That's the only way to do it. You actually have to make changes. Now, the tricky thing is, is what does that look like? Because we self-organize towards our most efficient strategy. So if we just went out and ran, ran down the street right now, we're not thinking about it. We will run in our most efficient way. It may not be the most effective.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  But it is right now our most natural way to do that. So the coach's job is to look at that and say, eh, can we improve that effectiveness without necessarily negatively impacting the efficiency of that strategy? And that's really hard. There's always going to be a gap. Improvement of effectiveness comes at the cost of efficiency, always. It's just a matter of what that cost is. Is that cost a year? A year and a half where you're going to be moving in a less efficient way? Or is it if you're working with a 15-year-old kid, like a week? You know, because it's so plastic.

• 54:41Rich Roll?

  Right, the neuroplasticity, yeah. Like when Tiger Woods decided he was going to change his swing. It was like this huge commitment that didn't pay off for quite some time.

• 54:51Speaker 01

  It's the greatest example in sports. He ruined his career by messing what was already an incredibly effective and efficient swing, trying to make it more effective and ignoring, not understanding how this is going to impact his efficiency. And it just, it ruined his health and his career hasn't been the same, obviously.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  Also, when you make that technique shift, it doesn't feel right. It feels wrong. And even if you have a coach saying, trust me, this is going to make you better, everything in your body is like, no, like, I want to move this way, and now when I move this way, it just feels like the wrong way. Like, I'm obviously thinking back on my swimming experience, like, very technical-oriented sport, and subtleties matter, and you can really only focus on changing one thing at a time. And when you begin to make that change, whether it's you're making your elbow a little bit higher, or, you know, the hip rotation, or whatever it is, it feels unnatural. And your brain is convincing you that it's wrong, you know? And it's only through, like...

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  Continually like repeating it and reaffirming it until it becomes rote that you start to like click into a new mode and see gains. But when I look at masters athletes, triathletes, or master swimmers, their technique's terrible, like because they didn't learn how to swim as a kid, right? And so it's really hard to learn it later in life. And they're time crunched. And when they go to the pool, they need to get in there 3000 meters or whatever it is. And there's no time for the technique. But they're so inefficient and they're in a hydrodynamic environment, right? Like, like, everything is exponentially more significant, every poor technique problem. But the resistance to focusing on that ultimately becomes the Achilles heel.

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  And it's like, forget about the conditioning. Like, you need to take a year and focus on your technique. The water's not working for you. You're fighting it. And so you're exerting all this energy to go incredibly slow.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree.

• 56:55Rich Roll?

  And so it's not any different in track and field. It's just that you're moving through air instead of water.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  It's the same in any task that you're trying to improve, any motor task. There's essentially, we've got three buttons that we can press. We can press the structural button, which is your structure, which includes your body weight, your limb length, your height, your muscle fiber type, all of these different things, your joint structure. Some of those things we can impact, like your weight, we can't impact your height, but some of the things we can impact, and some of them we can't. There's your function. So those are all the different capacities. Your endurance capacity, your force capacity, your range of motion capacity, all of these different things. We can affect that. That's a button to press. And we can improve your swimming ability or your running ability by improving one of those capacities or a few of those capacities. And finally, there's the technical part, the coordinative

• 57:45Speaker 01

  button. And that's your, you know, your degrees of freedom, and how you free them and freeze them, and your self organizing, organizing capacities, or your understanding of how to move. So it's, you know, coaching. And even when you're coaching yourself, and, you know, many of us, that's what we're doing, right? We're just exercising and moving and doing things and trying to improve and really coaching ourselves. We don't have coaches. But think about it, those are the three buttons. Am I going to get better just by losing 20 pounds? Do I need to lose that? Is that a bigger thing for me than maybe getting stronger or becoming more technical? Yeah, that's probably a good, good start for me. Or is it, I'm, I'm pretty happy with my structure. But I'm really weak, or I've got no endurance capacity. But I'm pretty coordinated. Alright, so that's the button I'm gonna press.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  Or, you know, the structure's pretty good. I'm, you know, I'm lean, I'm, you know, there's not a lot more I can do there. I can apply good forces through good ranges of motion, I have good endurance capacity, but my coordination really sucks. So that's the button I'm gonna, I'm gonna press. What you're saying is, with most of these athletes, they got this one, they've got the structure, they've got the function, but they're lacking the technique. And I feel like that's where people really get it wrong, you know? And that's, what is the solution for that? I'm gonna do some technical drills prior to doing this thing. That's not how we get better at anything. We actually have to think about getting better at the thing while we're doing the thing. And that's the hard bit. And understanding, as we said, the gap, and how long of a commitment that you're signing up for.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  And you may even be signing up for a mistake, like Tiger Woods did.

• 59:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:20Speaker 01

  He wasn't trying to get worse. He wasn't trying to hurt himself. He was trying to get better. So we've got to be really careful, first and foremost, before, before we say, you know, I'm gonna try and improve my technique by doing X, Y, and Z. We have to be really careful, first and foremost, before doing that.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  Hmm. What is the average volume of the average elite sprinter in terms of the amount that they're running every week?

• 59:48Speaker 01

  I think that differs from system to system. When you talk about volume, you can be talking about anything from, say, sixty-five to seventy percent of their maximum sprint speed, all the way up to a hundred percent of it. The amount of time that we spend doing a hundred percent maximum sprint speed per week, probably less than three hundred meters? Like, it's not much.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  And some programs might be maximal about a thousand meters.

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  It's very, very little. Most elite sprint programs are pretty polarized, like most middle-distance programs are at this point pretty polarized. There's a little bit of high-intensity work and quite a lot of low-intensity work. It's the same as sprinting. We do a lot of work at sixty-five to seventy percent, probably somewhere in the neighborhood of four to five thousand meters a week of that. We do a little bit of work, anywhere, somewhere, you know, two hundred to five hundred, that's probably about the range of maximal work. And the rest of the work, a little bit of work happens in the middle, but not much.

• 1:00:48Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. But in terms of the amount of, let's just put it in mileage terms, like how many miles a week? Like a lot of, you know, including like warm-up, just running really slow around the track. I'm saying this because I think there is a misconception out there that that these athletes aren't doing that much running, when in fact they actually are probably doing more running than the average, you know, amateur ten K runner.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  There's a lot of movement. There may not be a lot of just linear running, jogging, you know, but there is, you know, we will go out on the track and we start training at nine forty-five. The athletes get there at nine fifteen. They do about half an hour of prep work on themselves, rolling and stretching and doing whatever, maybe getting some therapy. We start the warm-up at nine forty-five, and typically we finish about one o'clock. And there's a lot of moving between that nine forty-five and that one o'clock. I'd need to check the GPS, but I would, I would think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of six to eight miles of movement.

• 1:01:47Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:48Speaker 01

  That's every day.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:49Speaker 01

  You know, and then we go to the weight room and we do a bunch of stuff.

• 1:01:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so six to eight miles. So you're looking at like, you know, eighty miles a week of running or of movement, I would say, right?

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, six to eight a day multiplied by five or six. So fifty?

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  Fifty?

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, forty to fifty. It's a lot.

• 1:02:07Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. We don't do any jogging. We do zero jogging.

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  Zero jogging.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Zero jogging. We do, we do striding and sprinting and that's it.

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  Speaking of jogging, what, what do you think the, again, back to the average kind of endurance athlete or running enthusiast, what can that individual learn from the world of sprinting? You know, I think endurance athletes, you know, we love our zone too, you know, and we like building our base, you know, and, and quite frankly, for most people, you know, a lot of speed work, is that gonna, is that gonna make them faster in a 50K when their, you know, average pace is 8:30 or nine minutes a mile or something like that? But I think there's more and more interesting science coming out around the importance of doing threshold and speed work in terms of improving your capacity as an endurance athlete.

• 1:03:00Rich Roll?

  So I'm curious around your thoughts.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, speed reserve matters for sure. It matters at every event from 100 meters up to a marathon. I don't know anything about any of the ultras, I'm sorry, but it, typically, the fastest marathoners or the people that win the marathon races are also really, you know, they're the fastest people as well, you know? You put them in a 400 meter and they would win the 400 meters.

• 1:03:21Rich Roll?

  Sure, at the elite level, yes. Like, they're, they're doing a lot of intense speed work, of course.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Hundred percent, hundred percent. So the question then is, what is the transference down to the, the average, you know, Joe or Jane? And for me, it's, it's like, are you really that interested in maximizing your 10K, your marathon or your 100 mile? Like, if that's really important to you, then try to figure out what is, you know, what you need to do. So capacity is first and foremost the most important thing. If this is really important for you, the performance of this and not just the experience of it, or just being excellent, or doing things that you really enjoy, then find a way to do some speed work within that. Because that will, that increased sort of, that increased speed,

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  any speed that's below that speed will be at a lower percentage of your maximum sprint speed. So you can be a little bit more economical at these various speeds. That's basic, you know? It's just then, like, what does that look like? You know, for, speed work for us, and this, this is a speed session, might be two by 60 meters.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:04:34Speaker 01

  That's it. That's the session.

• 1:04:36Rich Roll?

  This is the, yeah, this is the focus of the entire day.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:04:39Rich Roll?

  We're doing all the other stuff, but it's really just about

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  We are warming up for an hour and a half. Plus getting maybe an hour of treatment for two 60 meter runs.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:04:52Rich Roll?

  That's fucking hilarious.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  That's probably different from most people who listen, right? Speed work for them might be, alright, we're gonna do some one minute repeats or 30 second repeats or whatever and take a long recovery. That's the big thing is like when we were saying before about the difference between running and sprinting. If you're actually trying to get faster, think about the recovery that you have or the density of your programming. Doing 30 seconds on, 30 seconds off for three miles isn't speed work. That's maximum aerobic speed. It's not improving your speed. Improve your speed, you need to look at, you know, rest to work ratios of upwards of 10. So if you're running for 30 seconds, five minutes recovery.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  And that's hard for many joggers and endurance athletes, you know, it's hard.

• 1:05:51Rich Roll?

  But from a biometric perspective, you're not going to be able to run fast unless your body knows how to run fast.

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:05:59Rich Roll?

  Also, right?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:06:00Rich Roll?

  So aside from the conditioning part, there's just a kind of neurological piece there of connecting like just, just your body knowing that it can do that and what it feels like when it's doing that. Are you familiar with this guy, David Roche? I had him on the podcast.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:16Rich Roll?

  He's a long time endurance athlete, you know, kind of marathon runner, was a track and field athlete and has been a coach in Boulder for a long time. And had never done anything in the ultra world. And then he decides he's gonna do his first 100 miler, never done a 100 miler before. And he trained for it in a very unconventional way by doing almost not exclusively, but way more than anybody else had before, like focusing on threshold work and running fast and acclimating his body to be able to withstand.

• 1:06:48Rich Roll?

  Running at speeds much faster than people are used to running for distances like that. And granted, he had this huge base that he'd been building for, you know, I don't know, 20 years or something like that. So obviously, he's tapping into that. But his approach was really unique and it paid off. He like won, he won Leadville and like, you know, just crushed it with like an insane time. Did he break the record? I think he broke the Red Leadville, did he break the level record? I think he did. Yeah, in his very first 100 miler. I think he got injured recently, but then he was going to go to Western States and try to do it again. But, but basically, I'm bringing all this up because he's introducing the concept of speed in a world in which, you know, for

• 1:07:31Rich Roll?

  the first time, kind of, or in a different and new way in that world. And I think there is something to be said for playing around with different approaches. And so with you being the speed master, obviously, your, your, your world is like speed in the most, you know, finite way. And it's unclear how much that would translate into that other very different world. But I think from a technique perspective and from a biomechanical perspective, I think there's a lot to be learned.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. Hundred percent. For me, the fastest athletes, even the best athletes in any other sport are the ones who coordinate all the component parts of their system the best. So they may, you know, have really strong calves, or really strong quads, or really strong glutes, or, you know, great pecs, or whatever it is. And, you know, all the best ones have that. But the really truly best are the ones who could coordinate every single component part of their system. So from what's happening down the foot, to the ankle, to the knee, to the hip, to their arms and their shoulders, and how they're carrying their head and all of these things. How it coordinates, how the entire system coordinates. Now, each component part of that system is really important. It's important that you've got a, a really stiff spring at your ankle, so you can attenuate some of

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  these high, high forces. But How that ankle relates to the knee, and how the knee relates to the hip, and how those three joints relate together, and how that relates to the entire system as a whole, that's more important. And that's coordination. So in coordination, really, what we're talking about when we're talking about 100 miler, that's economy. So if you can be more coordinated, you can be more economical. So perhaps by doing more speed work for this guy, he became a little bit more coordinated. He learned how to intuitively, he wasn't probably cognitively aware of this, but his system became more connected. So how his ankle related to his knee, to his hip, to the rest of his system, everything just started working in a much more coordinated fashion. We don't do that when we're just doing his own two work.

• 1:09:26Rich Roll?

  And being able to maintain that for a longer period of time, because he trained it.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  Right, 100%. Now, that's kind of what we were saying before, right? We've got to identify what it is about us as individuals that make us us. Like, what are we good at? And then lean into that. So just because he trained that way doesn't necessarily mean that everyone else would be trained exactly that way.

• 1:09:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, back to the internet, you know, drawing a reductive conclusion from that. Like, this is the way, it's the Norwegian 4x4.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  It's a different version of that idea. Yeah. How much does technology come into play in terms of how you work with athletes? Like, what technology do you use? Like, I would imagine, you know, videoing your athletes and finding ways to really, like, get granular about their technique, or how is the body, you know, coordinating from an internal perspective? Is there a way to measure that? And to, like, measure progress?

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. A lot. Track and field is the ultimate technology sport. So stopwatch. And everybody's used a stopwatch for going mountain, you know, 100 years or so. And even beginner coaches have a stopwatch. And now beginner coaches also have a camera. Beginner coaches also generally have a camera and some sort of biomechanical app that they're, they've paid $5 for or whatever, right? So that's where we start. At the higher levels, it's significantly more than that. You know, so if you look at what sprinting is, or even what running is, ground contact time, flight time, step length, and step frequency, and velocity. And velocity is the result of these four things. Contact time, flight time, step frequency, step length.

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  If I watched you run out there, I can probably have a pretty good guess of what those four things are. But it wouldn't be a great one. I wouldn't be able to accurately understand the difference between your contact time of 12 hundreds or 14 hundreds, for example. So you need really robust technology to be able to do that. Luckily, there's techs out there now that we don't have to rely on doing that in a lab with a biomechanist, there's different AI apps. In fact, we've got one, it's called Motion IQ, where we just film it with a camera and it'll tell us what the contact time is, what the flight time is, what the step length is, and what the step frequency is. Now, all of these are component parts of the system. They're called spatial-temporal variables. They determine how fast you are.

• 1:11:52Speaker 01

  All of them are important. But if I told you that my step length was 250 centimeters, that doesn't tell you anything about how fast I am until I tell you what the step frequency is, what the contact time, what the flight time is. So it's always this connection, the interrelationship between these component parts. So this is, coaching at this level is you have to know this data. You have to know that the elite males have to have a step frequency of between 4.4 steps a second and 5 steps a second, and they need to have a step length of somewhere between 240 and 280. And there's a big range because of the range of the athletes that we're talking about. Usain Bolt had a step frequency, and the world record of, I think, 4.38.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  So 4.38 steps a second, but his step length was 278 centimeters. Right. So if you have a small step frequency, you better have a huge length. And if I don't know that data as a coach, then I'm just sort of blindly thinking about, what am I doing here? What am I trying to improve then if I don't know the step length and step frequency, or the contact time and the flight time? If you've got a contact time of .080, for example, which is less than a hundredth of a second, and you're in the air for, let's say, 0.15, then you're, that's way too long in the air. And you can kind of see that if somebody's, ah, he just looks like he's bounding. But if we've got a way in which we can actually look at that and determine, you know, objectively what that is,

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  that for me is really, really valuable information.

• 1:13:22Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's way more intense than I thought.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Is that right?

• 1:13:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. No, that's fascinating. And then within that, can you also gauge force? You know, the force at which the foot is...

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  You can estimate force.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  You can?

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  You can estimate force.

• 1:13:35Rich Roll?

  Are there like sort of power meters that you can put in those shoes?

• 1:13:38Speaker 01

  You can do that too. There's many other different ways. But in fact, J.B. Moran and Dr. Ken Clark and Peter Weyand, many other sort of sprint biomechanists have looked at this. And there is a pretty accurate way to measure vertical force based upon how fast you're running and your body weight. So it's, and you can estimate that with a pretty good precision, actually.

• 1:13:57Rich Roll?

  And then, of course, over like 100 meters or 200 meters, there's stages within this race, right? And if you, if you were to measure those factors across those distances, it also becomes a factor of looking at when they begin to decline, right?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And if you don't have that data, again, like we, all we're seeing is with our eyes. And the eyes are great. We have a master's program that we've started this year. And a big part of it is, is the first couple of months is trying to get across to the students the importance of actually coaching. Over the course of the last 40, like when I started coaching 40 years ago, there was no tech. We had no tech. We had a stopwatch, really.

• 1:14:39Rich Roll?

  You could video people.

• 1:14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that was even that. Like we had, you had to have money to buy a $500 video camera. Like it was, it was hard, right? You had a position transducer that you could attach to a bar that might cost 300 bucks. And we, so we could get velocity from this position transducer. But not much else, you know, it was really, really hard. And now because there's so much tech... Coaches are just being inundated with all of it and they've forgotten, yet we still have to coach. You still have to develop an eye, you still have to have some basic, some subjective level of understanding of what you're seeing in front of you. And the capacity for many coaches right now, they kind of lose that, you know, it's still really, really important. So when it comes to, you know, the fatigue, we can see it. If you've got a good coaching eye, you can see, okay, this athlete's slowing down and

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  they're slowing down because they're spending longer on the ground, but you still don't know when that is, when that is happening, how much longer they are on the ground, what is the second order effects of that and how we can improve it. We've got to be able to come up with ways in which we can measure that. So it's, that's where tech, we can use tech really well. My rule on tech is I identify the tech that is the most important for us and rely on as little as we possibly can.

• 1:15:53Rich Roll?

  But you can foresee a situation, and maybe you already can do this with your AI tool, of feeding the AI all the data from a certain athlete's, you know, training and race performances with all of those metrics that you were talking about, and the AI being able to crunch that and saying, listen, here's what's happening at 80 meters, and if this athlete just, you know, shortened their stride length by, you know, two millimeters and can, you know, basically lift off more quickly or, or stay on the ground longer, we can avoid this because this person does this every time and here's a possible solution for you to look at. Is that?

• 1:16:32Speaker 01

  Maybe. Maybe.

• 1:16:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'm like, I don't know anything, so I'm just like...

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  There are tools out there now that it's going that way.

• 1:16:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  I'm skeptical.

• 1:16:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  I'm really skeptical. This is a complex system. It's a nonlinear complex system where we don't really understand the relationship between component parts until after the fact. Now, if AI can come in and help us understand those relationships a little bit quicker, great, but it's not going to make decisions for us, there's no way. Not in our lifetime, anyway.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's probably not going to be able to tell you whether, you know, Noah Lyles will be better if he doesn't wear the pearl necklace, you know, or brought out a different Pokemon card.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:17:15Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:17:17Rich Roll?

  So I don't, I don't think your role is going anywhere.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  At least for the next 20, 20 years or so.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, humans are incomprehensible.

• 1:17:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:23Rich Roll?

  In a way that will provide you with career longevity, I think.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Good, I'm glad.

• 1:17:29Rich Roll?

  You know, what do you recommend for some, somebody who's listening to this, who has never really thought about sprinting and is thinking, maybe I should, you know, like, learn more about this. Like, what's a way in? On Huberman, you went way deep on drills and plyometrics and skipping and tools. And I don't want to necessarily retread all of that area. I think, you know, you guys had an amazing conversation. And if people want to hear in detail more about that stuff, they should definitely go and watch or listen to that. But just to initiate, you know, the average human being or that avid endurance athlete, like, how do you usher them into your world a little bit?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Skip. I think skipping is really important. So I will repeat that. I think skipping is a really nice gateway into sprinting because it's a very similar gate pattern that requires the coordination of the ankle, the knee, and the hip. That's really important because that is the biggest difference between sprinting and jogging. Jogging, there's not a lot of coordination going on. There's a lot of just, you know, overamortization essentially. You're spending a lot of time on the ground and you're just rolling through the joints. It's not super coordinated. Where skipping, you have to be coordinated. So I think skipping is a really good way to do it. And skipping to warm up or put skipping into runs or, you know, every five minutes do a 30-second skip. I do feel like that is a really good gateway into sprinting.

• 1:18:46Rich Roll?

  Like, what is it doing that is so important?

• 1:18:49Speaker 01

  The best things are the ones that teach you without you having to think about how to do it. Skipping is a pretty innate intuitive gate pattern. You know, so it's something that we learn to do when we're like three or four years old, right? If you skip, if we just went out and skipped down the street outside here, we'd be able to do that. And you could see that the ankle joint, the knee joint, and the hip joint all coordinate, meaning they all, they all fire and relax in a coordinated fashion to keep us moving effectively and efficiently. And it's much stiffer than if you were running. You can go out there and run a zillion different ways and you can think about it. But when you're skipping, it's, there's a lot less

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  cognitive involvement in that. So I think just the stiffness, the systemic stiffness, the vertical stiffness, which is the coordination between the ankle, the knee, and the hip, is something that we don't improve when we're jogging. We only improve when we're at a higher velocity or when we're skipping.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  So I feel like that is one way to do it. Another way to do it is when you do do your speed work, or when you're doing your Inova work or your fart lick or whatever, think about sprinting as if somebody's up in the sky. You've got a rope attached to the top of your head, and they're pulling you as tall as you possibly can. So you're always up here. And that just alone better coordinates the lower body joints. Because typically, running, especially if we're running longer distances, we tend to just shrink a little bit. And we go small, and we just drop down. Now, if we're gonna put in a sprint, we're gonna put a 30-second sprint in, just think about being taller, not pushing the chest out, but just being taller from the top of the head. And then think, so that's from the top.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  That's elongating everything and just forcing a more coordinated spring. And second, being stiffer on impact through the foot. So think in being flat foot on the contact and getting off pretty quickly. So just flat foot, flat foot, flat foot, flat foot. As if you're almost jumping on a trampoline. If you pushed off or toed off on a trampoline, you'd get over-rotated and you'd fall forward. But if you thought about just being flat and just bouncing with a really, really stiff foot and ankle, that's required on sprinting, but isn't required on running, by the way. And that's fine. But just think about doing that. So just, for me, there's not drills other than, you know, just doing, as we said, some plyometrics, some skipping, so on and so forth.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  It's just when you're running, just thinking about it. Just think about being a little bit taller. Thinking about the position of your pelvis. Am I really entirely rotated here? Am I just sort of, or do I need to tuck my pelvis under? Do I need to be a little stiffer on impact? All of these types of things. Just think about how you're running when you run.

• 1:21:33Rich Roll?

  What if you're an avid runner, and perhaps you do tempo work and, you know, threshold work and stuff like that, but you can't remember the last time you just said, "I'm gonna run 100 meters as fast as I can."

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't do it.

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Even if you're a very fit person, this is not something I would recommend you do. Like, you're risking injury, right? So what do you suggest in terms of building somebody up, you know, into a place where then they can begin to do that kind of thing?

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  There's a very unique demand on the tissue when you sprint maximally. And if the fastest you've gone as a percentage of your maximum sprint speed is 80, and all of a sudden you go to 100, it's only gonna end one way.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Speaker 01

  You know, so it's the same rules as everything else.

• 1:22:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  Progressive overload.

• 1:22:19Rich Roll?

  But we all still think we're 14.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  We're not.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  We're not, you're not.

• 1:22:23Rich Roll?

  What do you mean? I could go like, you know, I remember when I used to do that. Why can't I do that now?

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  No, you can't. You can't. Like that, and that's, you cannot do it, so don't try. But if you've gone to, you know, 70%, go to 75% and do that for three or four sessions. And once you can do that, go to 80%, 80, 85%. Time yourself. You know, this is the only way to get better at anything. You don't, if you're trying to get your bench press from 200 pounds to 400 pounds, you don't put 400 pounds on the bar. You put 205 pounds on the bar. Next time, maybe 210. And maybe in three years, you can do 400 pounds.

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:58Speaker 01

  It's the same.

• 1:22:59Rich Roll?

  I wanna know a little bit more about the world of bobsled and skeleton. So you've coached athletes in this world. It's so interesting. How is getting an athlete prepared in those worlds similar or different than working with a track and field athlete?

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  I love working with bobsleds and skeleton athletes. I've, I started in this business of speed in about 1995, 96. And I started working with bobsled athletes in 1998. So immediately, I was based up in Canada, in Calgary, where there's winter for seven months of the year.

• 1:23:37Rich Roll?

  There's not a lot of- More bobsledders than track and field athletes.

• 1:23:39Speaker 01

  There's not a lot of elite sprinters in Calgary. But there's a lot of bobsledders. You know, we had the 1980 Olympic Games there, right? So you've got a bobsled track. So there's lots of people wanting to do bobsled. But the biggest thing, the biggest difference is sprinters or elite sprinters have always been elite. They've always been the fastest kid. So they've always felt like they're the best athlete. Bob's letters are failed athletes in another sport. They're failures. So they've either failed in football, or they failed in track, or they failed in rugby, or they failed in baseball, or failed in decathlon, or whatever it is. And they pick up Bob's there because they couldn't do something else. So you have a certain type of mentality in psychology when you're working with Bob's

• 1:24:24Speaker 01

  letters, a certain type of humility, a certain type of respect for the process that it was required to be a sustainably long-term elite athlete. And maybe something to prove. And something to prove, hundred percent, which you don't always get in sprinting because it's all they've always been the fast kid. So you take it for granted a little bit until it's too late. I can't take this for granted anymore. I gotta do something else. Bob's letters not like that, and skeleton athletes are not like that. So I I really enjoyed working with those athletes because they're all in on whatever they needed to do, right? You talk about marginal gains, they're all in on whatever. What is the marginal gain that I can do this better? How can I get better? We're sprinters, I'm already fast, man. Like, what are you gonna tell me? I coached a kid, Andre Grass.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  He's seven, seven-time Olympic medalist. He got three Olympic medals in the 2016 games when I coached him. And we're having a conversation at the start of the year about nutrition because his nutrition wasn't great. So I'm talking to him about it, and he's listening to me, and he's a really nice kid. And he said, Coach, last year I won NCAAs in the 100 meters, in the 200 meters. In the 100 meters, in the final, I ran 975. And then I had a foot-long subway. And then 45 minutes later, I ran the 200 in 19, I think he ran 1957 windy and won the 200 meters.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  So, and that's he stopped. Yeah. So, I get it, you know what I mean? Like, it's a what can I tell you? We had a conversation about it. We didn't just stop there, but it's it's it's fair. You know what I mean? Like, a kid at that level with that type of ability, that type of capacity can go and eat a foot-long subway forty-five minutes before running like nineteen-five in a two-hundred meters.

• 1:26:12Rich Roll?

  I grew up with this kid, Mike Barrowman, who went on to break world records in breaststroke and win gold medals at the Olympics. And his pre-race meal was going to McDonald's. And he would talk about it in interviews.

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  It's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. And the other thing that Bob said that I really enjoyed was, I see this in sprinting as well. It took me a little bit of a longer time. But in Bob's said, you don't have to be really strong to be a great bobsled. But if you're not really strong, you better be pretty fast. You don't have to be really fast. But if you're not really fast, you better be really strong. And apart from that, you may not just be average strength and average speed, but you may be super elastic and you can be elite. So there's many different ways to be super elite in Bob's said. And I enjoyed the puzzle of trying to figure out, like, what makes you unique? What makes you elite at this? And how do we get that better? Well, maybe working on some of your weaknesses as well. Where in sprinting, it's, you know, intuitively, you think,

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  all right, they're elite because they're incredibly fast. And it took me a long time to figure out what that was. All right, there's much more to that than just being fast. You know, it's still, you know, as we said before, step length, step frequency, contact time and flight time, looking a little bit deeper into the system. But Bob's said was a really simple way for me to organize my thoughts around how to improve different people, whether that be football or basketball or bobsled or sprinters. Yeah.

• 1:27:37Rich Roll?

  In bobsled, I mean, you have to. Be down low and you're pushing something. So there's an added dynamic to all of that.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:46Rich Roll?

  I would suspect that the track and field athletes that are really good out of the blocks, that would be something that would translate into bobsled because you're down in that lower position where you're really driving

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  force forward lower.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've coached a couple of really excellent bobs setters who transitioned out of track and field and they were incredible starters. Lolo Jones and Lauren Williams.

• 1:28:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was gonna ask about Lolo. I mean, she's probably the most famous

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Rich Roll?

  sort of transfer over.

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, incredible athlete, absolutely incredible. She's 41 years old and she just represented USA.

• 1:28:19Rich Roll?

  She's still doing it, right?

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  She's still doing it. She was a world champion this past year, pushing the USA One sled at 41. Like, really incredible athlete. And the other one who's also incredible was Lauren Williams. Lauren Williams was an Olympic silver medalist in the 100 meters, ran 1084. And she's also got an Olympic medal in bobsled. Lolo didn't.

• 1:28:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there hasn't been any medals there, right?

• 1:28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, but Lauren has two, both in winter and summer. And the transition's really easy. Like, if you're, bobsled is not that hard for a sprinter to pick up. You're just now running with your hands on something.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  Then why aren't more people doing it? Like, if you're getting fourth at the Games or you're going to Diamond League and you're finaling, but you're not winning, like, it seems like, let's just go over here.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  You don't get paid.

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, there's that.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Right, that's, yeah. There is a potential that you can go to the Olympics and medal.

• 1:29:12Rich Roll?

  And that's back to your goal, too, right?

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Back to your goal.

• 1:29:14Rich Roll?

  Is your goal to go to the Olympics?

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  Your goal is you've always dreamed of going to the Olympics for 100 meters, or your goal is always to run track, or your goal is that. No one dreams of being a bobsetter when they're 12 years old. Nobody.

• 1:29:26Rich Roll?

  I bet there are kids in Calgary that do.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Maybe. Yeah, there's probably a few. There's probably a few. So it's always, it's hard, right? It's, we're going through this process right now. I'm coaching Kaylee Humphries, American bobsetter, and we're trying to recruit. So if anyone's listening here and you think you can be an incredible bobsled push athlete, we're trying to recruit a push athlete for her for this Olympic season in Winter Olympics. And we're looking at the track and field lists, you know, who are the, who are the fast, you know, 60-meter athletes or 100-meter athletes that may not be going, you know, the world championships in track and field, but maybe could make it to the Olympics and maybe get a medal in Winter Olympics.

• 1:30:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  You know? Yeah, it's fascinating. Coaching athletes in both of those sports. And in fact, I think, you know, a lot of the athletes will say, who've done both, who've gone back and forth like a lolo, that bobsled actually makes them better. Because bobsled, you know, you're pushing this 200 kilo thing. You've got to be pretty strong. So it forces you to work on that capacity for a year or two. A year or two that you're not doing track. And maybe you even needed that mental break from track. And then you can go back and do it again. I've seen a lot of athletes actually improve.

• 1:30:36Rich Roll?

  So they've gone out, done the bobsled, come back to track and field and then done PBs?

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  And been better, yeah. Seen that multiple times, yeah. The Canadian relay coach, the Canadian 4x1, 4x4 relay coach, his name's Glen Roy Gilbert. He did that. So he was, uh, he was part of the relay program in 95, 96, 97 for Canada. So he's got, he's got an Olympic gold medal in 1996. He went and did bobsled, came back and ran his PR in the 100 meters.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:31:03Speaker 01

  There's quite a few of them have the same story.

• 1:31:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would imagine there would be even more, but for the fact that, and maybe I'm wrong about this, that most of the athletes that make that transition are doing it in the sunset of their career. It's like, it's a way to, you know, extend the longevity of their professional athletic career. So the chances that they're gonna do that and then come back and do a personal best on the track are probably pretty low.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's less, for sure. But most of the athletes that do this, this is at the end of their, their, whatever it was in the football career. They failed at something, as I said, right? Some of them are not that. Some of them can, like a Glen Roy, and others can do both, for sure, and come back to it. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's a lot of fun working with those athletes.

• 1:31:44Rich Roll?

  World records get broken with less regularity these days, especially in the sprint world. But what's your perspective on, you know, ultimate human capacity at 100 meters?

• 1:31:56Speaker 01

  Ultimate.

• 1:31:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, like, how much faster, what do you think, you know, is possible?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Given the, uh, the track that we have right now and making some assumptions that maybe that track will improve.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  But not making the assumptions that they will improve it to the point where it actually can be significantly more additive. So let's say it's about the same. Maybe it's a little bit better, but it's about the same. Because you can make a track that just adds to every single step. And then who knows, right? This is one of the issues I have with with the sport right now, with some of the technological things. Super shoes, yeah. But not even super shoes, but also the tracks. The tracks are going that way. It's so it's hard. You know, one of the fun things about track is we can compare across, you know, decades and eras. And that's fun. That's great. We can't really do that anymore. When in 10 years, and it'll probably be 10 years, maybe 15 years, a male athlete comes and beats Usain Bolt's world record.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  You can't compare him to Usain Bolt. Because he's got, Usain Bolt didn't have super shoes and had the track that was available to him in 2013 when he broke that world record. So given those constraints, that the shoes don't get significantly better, the track doesn't get significantly better. And a Usain Bolt comes in again, but maybe just a little bit better than a Usain Bolt. And let's say, rather than getting hurt like Usain Bolt did when he was 23 years old and didn't really get any faster after that, maybe he he's healthy and continues to run faster for another five, six, seven years, maybe we see 93.

• 1:33:34Rich Roll?

  His record is 958?

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  958, correct. Correct. You know, if you had to replay Bolt in today's scenario with the super spikes, and we did a better job, not we, but somebody, whoever's involved in the system, were able to maintain his health and he stayed motivated for another five or six, seven years, he would have run close to 930, I think.

• 1:33:56Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Rich Roll?

  Beyond bobsled and skeleton, like you've mentioned, you work with all kinds of other athletes also, though, in many different sports.

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, we coach in person, only elite track and field athletes. And that's fun. You know, I started off as a coach, and I really love coaching. But I've done that for 40 years. You know, we also, you know, at this point in my career, I think it's just as fun for me to educate other coaches. So we've got this, you know, a big platform online, a digital platform. We've got a master's degree and we also consult with a lot of different professional teams and the athletes that they work with. So I just got back from Cleveland. I do some work with the Cleveland Browns, do some work with the Cleveland Guardians. We do a lot of stuff in baseball and help those coaches and educate those coaches and work with some of their athletes on some of the things that they're dealing with.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  You know, speed is more and more important in all of these sports now, you know, whether it's soccer or football or baseball or hockey or what have you. And so more and more coaches are reaching out to people like me who are experts, quote unquote, in, in speed for helping them with, with some of the challenges that they have.

• 1:35:08Rich Roll?

  And what have you learned yourself from interfacing with like NFL football coaches? Like I'm sure there's lesson, you know, there's things they're doing that are informing your approach as you're counseling them on speed.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  I'm not learning a lot about how to coach speed.

• 1:35:25Rich Roll?

  No, they're not going to teach you how to coach speed, but just being exposed to like high level coaches in a completely different sport.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  You know, I've, I've consulted now with over a hundred professional teams over the course of the last 15 years. And the thing, the biggest takeaway that I, that I've got is the best, the most successful organizations are the ones where all the staff are on the same page and they all have an integrated system where they all, and they work on that. You, you would think that it would be really integrated, but traditionally and still to this day, many teams have a very siloed system. Here's the therapists, here's the doctors, here's the strength staff, here's the technical staff, here's the GMs, here's the whatever. And it's very siloed.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  Or even the defensive coordinator and the line coach.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. The best football teams, the best soccer teams, the best basketball teams are those that are led well from the top. And the person at the top of that system, understand the importance of having a truly integrated one. Where everybody's having a conversation daily and working together daily. That's the biggest lesson that I've taken to our work. You know, I talk a lot about it and it's, people maybe getting sick of me talking about the importance of a system and a well-functioning integrated system. But it is everything in sport. At every level, at every scale. You know, so does the athlete feel supported by the entirety of the system? What does that mean? Is everybody working at the, with the same objective, having the same words and same

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  conversations and singing from the same hymn sheet? It's everything. Every time I go into a team that does not have a functioning system, it's obvious immediately. You see it immediately. I'll go, I'll go in and they bring me in to talk to them about speed or health or performance or whatever. And there might be six people there from the strength staff.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  And the physios haven't shown up, or the ATs haven't shown up, and the assistant GM hasn't showed up, and the nutritionist hasn't shown up. So, okay, this, there's a reason why you guys are four and 12, for example, you know?

• 1:37:35Rich Roll?

  Is there a team that you're comfortable sharing about that does this really well? Or not necessarily a team that you've worked with, but like, look at Premier League or look at, you know, different sports and you go, these people have it dialed because they're all like, operating as in unison at the highest level?

• 1:37:53Speaker 01

  Smaller clubs, smaller teams in smaller sports are forced to do this well because they don't have very many people. So, most of the smaller teams and smaller leagues do this well. The bigger the team, the more component parts within it, it's more and more difficult to integrate. That said, at that level, when it's a bigger team, there's two teams that I feel have done this better than anyone. I did some work with the LA Rams a few years back. And they're Really, really impressive. Like, that is a well-functioning team. And then for a few years, I've helped out the guys at Arsenal FC in the Premier League.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  And that's a great team, like, really, really well-functioning. And so, as I said, it requires the right leader to understand the importance of this. And in both cases, you've got the right head coach who understands, oh, this is what is important. This is how I'm going to build a sustainable, long-term, successful team, is by having everyone, you know, be integrated together. Both of them have at least forty-five-minute morning meetings with, I think Arsenal have eighteen people on that table every morning with the head coach.

• 1:39:04Rich Roll?

  Every morning?

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  Every morning.

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:39:06Speaker 01

  You know, so it's really impressive. Those guys, Arsenal for sure do a great job. It's not surprising at all how well they do. And then, you know, I did a little bit of work with Man City for a while. And Man City's a machine. Like, that is a massive machine with a lot of different moving parts. And it's really, really challenging when you've got that size of machine to be integrated. So I get it from their perspective. It's hard, you know, you just have to work harder to get there. I feel like they could be more successful even if they were a little bit better integrated.

• 1:39:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Soccer's your passion now.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Oh, it is, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  If Arsenal said, you know, "Come on board full-time."

• 1:39:45Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't do it.

• 1:39:46Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:39:47Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't do it. I'm a Man City fan.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  Man City, they're your guys?

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, if they called me up and said, I still wouldn't do it, no. I love what I'm doing too much.

• 1:39:55Rich Roll?

  Even though you can see a clear path to solving the problem and, you know, getting them to...

• 1:40:01Speaker 01

  The great thing about working in multiple sports, and the great thing, well, first of all, I get multiple different challenges across these sports, and multiple different conversations, and multiple different people doing different things, and that's really energizing for me. I love that. But I coach track and field, and I love coaching track and field. If I was coaching soccer... And you're a soccer player and we see this problem with how you run or how you perform or what's going on with whatever and we can improve that. We don't see the direct correlation to your performance as a soccer player or the performance of the team. It may have impacted it in a positive way. We see that immediately in track. Immediately.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  If I make a technical change or a programming change or a change with your therapy, therapeutic input, we see that immediately. And that's what I love about track and field.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The lessons that you learn in sport are lessons for life, though. And as much as you bump up against the idea that you're shaping young minds, you are. And I would imagine in turn, you're learning from these athletes and these experiences that you're having and these other teams and athletes outside of track and field that you're working with. Like, what are the lessons that you've taken away through these many decades of doing this that are lessons that you apply in your life off the track?

• 1:41:23Speaker 01

  There's not much of an off-life track.

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. These things are integrated, I get that. But you know what I'm getting at? Like, I'm trying to leave the audience with, like, you know, kind of the valid lessons for life that are applicable in sport but are really, you know, guiding forces in, you know, your value system, your worldview and how you approach decision-making, you know, in general.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna zoom in slightly and then maybe we'll zoom out. I'm a big believer of first and foremost, when I'm coaching an athlete, of trying my best to understand what it is that makes them them. Like, what are their unique abilities? That's so important to me. And I was actually, I was driving over here today, so I have a funny story, I was just thinking about this analogy. So I flew into Burbank last night and I picked up a car, you know, I rented a car. And I haven't driven a new car, I haven't bought a new car since 1988. And I think that's the last time I bought a new car, 1988. I don't have a new car at home. So I'm driving this car and I'm on the freeway.

• 1:42:28Speaker 01

  And I'm just changing lanes and there's no cars around, so I change lanes and it pulls me back into this lane. So there's this governing system within the car that's trying to keep me here. And then, you can push through it.

• 1:42:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  But the whole time I'm driving here, I'm feeling this and it's pissing me off.

• 1:42:47Rich Roll?

  It's giving you a nudge.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  It's annoying.

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Why are you doing this to me? Like to the point where I'm getting phenomenologically like uncomfortable through this. Like it's like I want to stop and figure out how to turn this thing off. And I'm thinking while I'm doing this, you know, this is like coaching. So many coaches do the same thing with athletes. You know, they they put they set these really narrow guidelines and they keep them here. Our job is to try to understand what it is in that athlete that made them do this thing. How can they express themselves fully in this thing? And then try to find that and allow allow that to flourish. And we call that, you know, trying to understand what their unique abilities are and then just feeding those unique abilities.

• 1:43:33Speaker 01

  And I feel like that is a lesson for me, like a really important lesson for me. You know, what is it that's unique about me? What is it unique that what is feeds me? You know, what feeds my everything? You know, what's important for me from a movement perspective? So don't allow the, you know, the system to tell me what exercise is or what type of exercise I should be doing. What what's going to feed me today? What serves me? So I feel like that's one of the biggest lessons that coaching has given me. The way in which I look at coaching towards an athlete's unique abilities. Let me come back out and rather than just falling into commodified exercise routines that the the system tells me is is the most healthy thing to do is, right? What do I feel like doing? Like, how am I going to explore this universe?

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  You know, this space around me? That's probably the biggest thing.

• 1:44:21Rich Roll?

  Being connected with yourself.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:44:23Rich Roll?

  And not only that, like listening to that voice.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. I I think that is for me, it's so important. It really is.

• 1:44:33Rich Roll?

  But you also you need somebody outside of you to to be able to see that in you and and help you kind of bring expression to that, right? Like who's coaching Stu?

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Stu is, right?

• 1:44:44Rich Roll?

  Right? That's part of the problem. You know, we all need a coach.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  We need somebody. We need some direction. Problem is, we're being directed by the incentivized system. You know, like commodified incentivized system to do these things that, you know, are is confusing exercise with with movement and health and fitness.

• 1:45:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 01

  That's the problem. But I but I totally understand it. Like I'm I'm experienced and an expert enough where I'm able to coach myself. And many others are not.

• 1:45:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you think.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so I hope.

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Because we all have our blind spots.

• 1:45:19Speaker 01

  Right, oh, for sure, for sure, right? What I would hope, and this is one of the the the factors that I kind of live my movement life by, is I try to do as many different things in as many different ways and in as many different environments as possible. And I think it's that variability that is really important to lean into as we age. You know, we had that when we were kids. We just did everything, all the time.

• 1:45:43Rich Roll?

  And the beginner's mind.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it just becomes a narrower, a narrower, a narrower, a narrower. And now all we do is we jog, and then we lift weights and do some yoga.

• 1:45:51Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  You know? And I feel like it's important, you know, really, health is about variability. Can you do a bunch of different things in a bunch of different ways? Adapt, being adaptable.

• 1:46:00Rich Roll?

  Well, this relates to curiosity. And curiosity is something you talk a lot about in terms of making sure that you're approaching the athletes with curiosity, that they're being curious about their own careers, like that, you know, like the beginner's mind, the staying active, doing different things, the variability is really about indulging your curiosity.

• 1:46:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's really well said. We get this question a lot in some of the education events that we do, like what is the most important trait that that you have or that you think other coaches need to develop? That's always the answer for me.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  Curiosity.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Curious. We bring in 12 interns every year, and I look for the curious ones. They don't need to be expert, they don't need to be experienced, but are you going to ask questions? Be curious. You can always tell who's going to be an excellent coach. The head of strength and conditioning at Arsenal, his name is Sam Wilson, he came and spent 12 weeks with us about seven years ago. He was at the time, an academy strength and conditioning coach at Arsenal. And man, that guy didn't leave my hip for 12 weeks, like he was annoying.

• 1:47:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  Like just asking questions over and over and over, and I loved it. I loved every second of that. And I knew immediately, this this cat's going to be a great coach. And now he's head of strength and conditioning at, you know, one of the biggest football teams in the world and just killing it.

• 1:47:20Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  As we wind this down, I want to turn attention back to some of the things that we can take away and use in our life. We talked about skipping. Is there other sprint oriented, running, situational sort of things that we could start to practice and play around with, with curiosity?

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  I think there's two ways to look at this. There's one, when you look at, we want to be high quality movers. We want to move in a high quality way, generally. You don't want to move crappily. I think everybody's going to, you know, admit to that. So what is high quality movement? So think about it from a quantitative perspective and a qualitative perspective. The quantity, we kind of do okay on mileage, weight on a bar, all of these different things. But quality, we don't. So just think about the quality of your movement and try to be generally a little bit more aware of what that is and how I can do this thing, whatever that thing is, hiking, jogging, running, sprinting, lifting weights, yoga. Just think about how can I do this with more quality? And sometimes that's enough.

• 1:48:25Speaker 01

  You know, you don't need somebody to say, and hey, Rich, you know, the quality of this isn't good enough. I want you to do it better. You can, you can feel that yourself. I'm going to try to do this with a little bit more quality, slow it down, be a little bit more of aware of what my body is doing in space and time. So just take the time to pay attention to how you're moving in anything. I feel like that is really important. And number two is the quantitative aspect. Some, one of the, some of the things that we don't do is we, we do volume pretty well and we do intensity pretty well, but we don't think about the actual pattern of movement that we're trying to improve. Think about the weights that we do.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  We think about these, you know, six or seven fundamental movement patterns or whatever they are. The one that we kind of ignore is that hip extension pattern, which is so important. The best walkers, the best runners, the best joggers, the best marathoners, the best sprinters, they always have the best hip extension pattern. So find ways in which you can work on that pattern specifically. So that means doing a lot more unilateral work in the weight room. If you like doing weights, go in there, spend time on one leg. Or stagger stance, or kickstand stance, rather than doing double leg work. Do lunges, do reverse lunges, do different things like that. Working in an extended hip pattern is such an important piece. And if you do that through different velocities, different ranges of motions, at different forces,

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  you'll become a much better mover.

• 1:49:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this is Kelly Sterrett territory.

• 1:49:58Speaker 01

  It is. Kelly and I have talked about this a ton. I think he started while he's having a conversation with me on the phone one night. Now, we gotta start, you know, because this is when knees over toes, this guy was just coming out. And he was just starting to get popular. And Kelly says, "Man, I like this cat, he's pretty good. But we need to start a knee behind butt thing." So he's got the Instagram handle, knees behind butt, that's Kelly.

• 1:50:24Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's nothing on there right now. But we've always talked about let's feed into that thing and make this thing a thing. It is a thing. Knees over toes is important, I think it's a little bit overplayed. But knee behind the butt is really important.

• 1:50:37Rich Roll?

  Knee behind the butt.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Knee behind the butt.

• 1:50:39Rich Roll?

  So how do you get your, how do you, oh, knees behind the butt. So give me an example of that.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  So doing a reverse lunge and putting this, just walking.

• 1:50:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Just walking, you know? Most people, when they run, the knee might just go just behind the butt. And if you don't have maybe the capacity, or the flexibility, or the mobility in the hip, then just to get it a little bit further, you might get an anterior rotation of the pelvis. And then you don't have a high quality knees behind butt pattern.

• 1:51:05Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  If you have better structure, better mobility, better flexibility, you can get your knee behind the butt better.

• 1:51:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I think you need to get on that Instagram account.

• 1:51:15Rich Roll?

  But on the first piece, I mean, I think that's the bigger piece. When you think of sprinting, you think of athletes who are so finely attuned to their bodies and every detail in every microsecond of what's happening, right? The level that they're paying attention to holistically, everything that's happening is like at such an insane level. So and to the extent that we can take some, some small portion of that and apply it into our daily lives and our, you know, physical routines, like, you know, it's, it's just, it's, it's actually a small ask. You know, I know I go out and I run and, you know, half the time I'm tuned out, I'm thinking about other things or, you know, I'll call it active meditation or whatever.

• 1:51:58Rich Roll?

  But if you were to ask me like, how's your foot landing or what, you know, what, what are your shoulders doing like, I don't know, you know, I'm not paying attention to it.

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  You know, the, the best, we're always aware. It's just a matter of whether we're actually cognitively aware at that moment in time.

• 1:52:14Rich Roll?

  Where you're focusing your attention.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And, and, you know, the elites, it's not like, you know, I'm asking athletes to be aware of every single part of their system as they're doing this thing, you know, it's just one piece. And as I said before, sometimes it's just an emotion or a mood. But there has to be a point where you know what you're doing. And I guess here would be the third thing that we can take away is the fact that the system, the body is a rotational system. The hips oscillate and undulate, meaning they go back and forth. So there's internal rotation, external rotation, and they also go up and down. So they go up and they go down. And the shoulders do the same thing. They go back and forth and up and down. And the spine connecting them rotates, side bends and extends and flexes.

• 1:52:57Speaker 01

  And it's really important for that system, that shoulder, spine, pelvic system to do that really well. So one thing I, I suggest when people go running or sprinting is start to pay attention to what that feels like. Can you feel your shoulders going back and forth and coming up and down a little bit? Or are you just moving your arms and your shoulders aren't moving? Cause chances are if your shoulders are rocking and rolling a little bit, so will your hip. The hip has to have the capacity to do this. It's typically. This gets worse, but it's not as big of a problem as this going up and down. Back and forth is something that gets harder and harder and harder for us as we age. But this going up and down is even more problematic.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  If as you're swinging through, if that side of the hip doesn't come up, that's where we trip, that's where we fall, that's a problem. Can we still maintain the capacity to lift the hip up as we move like this? It's so important. So to think about it when you're running, allowing the shoulders to rock and roll a little bit and feel that same rocking and rolling in the hips. So that would be a qualitative thing to pay attention to.

• 1:54:06Rich Roll?

  You should do a master class on running. Yeah, that was pretty good.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Thanks. I should do this for a living.

• 1:54:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think you might have, yeah, there's something, there's something here for you.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, appreciate it.

• 1:54:17Rich Roll?

  No, this was great. I really appreciate it. Any, any kind of closing thoughts? Anything you want to leave the audience with? I mean, this has been an absolute treat and a pleasure.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  It's been fun, man. I'm a big fan of your work. It was great to be here. A little bit jealous of your beard and your hair.

• 1:54:30Rich Roll?

  No, I mean, listen, I'm looking at your beard.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  No, man, that's a way better beard than mine.

• 1:54:34Rich Roll?

  We could have a beard grooming podcast afterwards because this is new to me and I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  It's really good. Yeah, you're doing, you're doing a great job. Really good job.

• 1:54:42Rich Roll?

  Well, we can beard out later.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Rich Roll?

  But I appreciate you and, you know, you've been doing great work for a long time. And you're just, you're so full of knowledge and insight and it was a real honor. Thanks, Stu.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Back at you, Richard. I appreciate it.

• 1:54:54Rich Roll?

  Cheers.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:54:55Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 1:55:01Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at mealplanner.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in

• 1:56:29Rich Roll?

  2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support, see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.