Bryan Johnson & Kate Tolo On Curing Their Incurable Diseases, Addressing The Disparity In Women's Health & The Don't Die Mission

Bryan Johnson and Kate Tolo are entrepreneurs, partners, and the subjects of the Netflix documentary "Don't Die." This conversation explores the couple's challenge to a presupposition around our mortality. We discuss AI, consciousness, Kate's endometriosis diagnosis, and our culture's relationship with death. I appreciated their openness. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Go Brewing: Get 50% OFF your first subscription order to Go Brewing's Beer Club👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com/richroll50 LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Birch: Get 27% Off Sitewide👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 50% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:27Bryan Johnson?

  If we are to be, don't die, we both have to cure our incurable diseases. So either they get us or we get them.

• 1:33Speaker 02

  Anti-aging entrepreneur Brian Johnson.

• 1:36Bryan Johnson?

  We revealed a recent diagnosis of autoimmune gastritis. Kate Tolo is the most measured female in history.

• 1:42Speaker 03

  One of the sharpest content minds, Kate pitched Brian, what if the science experiment was done in public?

• 1:47Speaker 04

  So we're spending $2.6 million on my protocol. I was like, oh yeah, I think I have suspected endometriosis. Brian hears about it and I was diagnosed in something like 42 days. Women typically take six and a half years to get a diagnosis.

• 2:01Bryan Johnson?

  I think it's possible that we have a cure within like six months. This has never been done before. We've done all of this in four weeks' time.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  There's a perception that this is about you wanting to live forever.

• 2:13Bryan Johnson?

  I can't understand what living forever means. I simply want to say yes to existence. And what I really concluded is that.

• 2:26Rich Roll?

  Super nice to be here, you guys. Thank you for inviting me into your beautiful home, into the sanctum. I'm excited to talk to both of you together. And my first question really is for Kate. Like, I just want to know, like, what is it actually like to be in a relationship with this lunatic?

• 2:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. To look over and you're just smiling.

• 2:49Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, just, you know, have at it.

• 2:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a lot. It's definitely different. Brian is a unique, special human being, and I've known that since day one, since the first moment I looked into his eyes. And honestly, I feel like it's out of my control. I don't think I am in charge of whether or not I love Brian. My body just does. And so.

• 3:12Rich Roll?

  What, what is your kind of like relationship history prior to this? Like in terms of like other guys that you dated and, and the kind of delta between that and the experience of like living with Brian?

• 3:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think Brian's just one of a kind. So I would categorize myself generally, like both in relationships, but also lifestyle, how I think about the world as a fairly normal, average bell curve person prior to meeting Brian. And so even in just the way I live life now, it's entirely different.

• 3:42Rich Roll?

  Initially, you were, you came in like as an employee, right? Like you were working here for quite a while, right? Before the relationship blossomed. What attracted you to want to be in his employ to begin with? Like, what was it inside of you that like wanted to be part of this whole thing?

• 4:00Speaker 04

  It was his neurotech company that I fell in love with so deeply. I was 21, I'd just moved to New York. I had grown up in a small town with immigrant parents. So I didn't have a ton of exposure to like, what is an engineer? And you know, what's a consultant? Like that, those words just didn't mean anything to me. I got to New York, I was working in fashion because I learned how so when I was eight years old. And I started to see the world for the big space that it is and learned about AI. This is back in 2016. And I thought that is the next thing happening. And I surveyed the world trying to find somebody who's actually working on solving the issue of the crisis that AI might bring. And I really felt like the only path forward would be to merge humanity and AI in some capacity to be able to speak the same language.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  And so I was looking into bringing tech companies, brain interfaces. These are, you know, can you translate the human experience into a computer's experience through some sort of interface? And 2016 December, I was sitting in a cafe in Brooklyn and I got an email from Singularity University. And I had a quote from a man named Brian Johnson. And the quote resonated deeply with me as a person who's working on this, who's vision aligned with mine. So I started reaching out to him and it took a number of years. And I was just every year paying him on these various platforms, saying, I would love to come work your neurotech company. But of course, going from fashion to tech is a really hard transition to make. And so, yeah, it took a while. And then eventually he responded, I think by chance, by accident.

• 5:26Speaker 04

  And then we started working together and it took us about a year and a half of when we started this project for science and for health before it actually took off. And then I transitioned full time to that Brian.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  How do you feel about how this AI experiment is going so far in the years between 2016 and what we're seeing currently? And this premise that the future is some merging of humanity with this, you know, superpowered technology?

• 5:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, I definitely was naive and I've been humbled by like what's happened across the last six, seven years. Um, I still have hope that if we can quantify and understand the human experience enough that we may be able to have a world where we truly merge. And what we're building is ultimately a path where we can swallow artificial intelligence to use it for humanity's benefit. Like what we're really trying to have survive is our kind. So not like our biological beings necessarily, but our shared intelligence, thoughts, collective consciousness, our libraries, the internet, those spaces where we come together. And it's something other than like our biological selves. It's our spiritual selves collectively.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  That's ultimately, we're trying to hitch that onto the backs of AI because AI has the capacity to run away as a train and become its own thing. And then where, you know, our existence is.

• 6:52Rich Roll?

  Right, you have to, like, how are you reconciling like that vision, that aspirational vision with the, you know, kind of potential for this being an existential threat?

• 7:03Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  That will augur the, the extinction of our species. It's like one or the other, like Brian, like what's interesting about like everything that you're doing? And maybe this doesn't get enough attention is the fact that like the substrate that's underlying all of this really is AI. Like I had the privilege of coming to one of your Jeffersonian dinners and the provocative prompt to instill the conversation to follow is if there was a superpower AI that had your best interest at heart and would basically tell you everything you need to do to be as healthy as possible, would you surrender all of your decision-making over to this AI with the understanding that you could never revoke it?

• 7:49Rich Roll?

  It would never expire. And that's, that's the very provocative question, obviously. I mean, did I get it right? Is that essentially like the prompt? And so the premise is that if we can understand this and we can empower a certain technology to help us make these decisions for us, because we're terrible at making these decisions. We're emotional beings, et cetera, that humanity by proxy would be better off as a result. That remains kind of the thesis?

• 8:15Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, the, the question itself is, is really more to draw out the person's beliefs than it is to practically answer the question. And so I, in this Jeffersonian dinner, I, I set the stages where I give two purposely provocative statements that draws people out. And in doing that, they show their cards, their beliefs, their biases, their preferences. And then I take that and then I flip it around and give them a mirror. And so it's a process that, that I go through. What I'm really trying to do is, is with AI, what's happening now is we are trying to say

• 8:59Bryan Johnson?

  intelligent things about reality. And when you bring up the topic of AI, you can go down a near infinite number of paths in trying to string words together that try to make sense. You can talk about jobs, you can talk about meaning, you can talk about, you know, utopia, dystopia, solving cancer. But I think the purest insight is it's possible no human can say anything intelligent about AI. And I don't think we, we fully internalize that, that relative to AI, we may be cavemen in terms of our ability to understand what's coming.

• 9:39Bryan Johnson?

  And therefore our models of reality, our perceptions of ourselves, our goals as a species, maybe they don't translate into the bridge. We don't know. And so what I'm really trying to do is I'm trying to say, as me as Brian Johnson, can I say one intelligent thing in this moment? And what I really concluded is that I simply want to say yes to existence. That's all I can say. Outside of that, I have no idea what to say. I don't know what to think. I don't know how to feel, other than like, I say yes to existence under all circumstances. And that's what this project is about. And so of course, people hear us through the language of the things we do together,

• 10:24Bryan Johnson?

  the experimentation and the therapies and the performance art. But that's really it, is the species at a moment in time of transitioning to something different that we can just open-heartedly say, we want existence.

• 10:39Rich Roll?

  There's a perception that this is about you wanting to live forever, but there's a ripple in that. Like there's a difference between this notion of living forever and don't die. Like what is the, how do you distinguish those two things?

• 10:53Bryan Johnson?

  The human brain is very funny. If you speak about it through the frames of Buddhism and reincarnation, it doesn't necessarily, a person doesn't feel concerned about that reincarnation cycle. If you talk about it through a Christian lens, that you go to heaven, that's soothing. If you talk about it from an Islamic lens, that is soothing. If you talk about it without those safe landing spots, it drives people crazy. You know, like, I can't understand what living forever means. I don't know how to compute that. And so you're just putting them in unknown land. And then the same is true if a person's an atheist. And so the mind has certain tracks that it follows that says, this is a safe thought process, or this is a dangerous thought process.

• 11:37Bryan Johnson?

  And then if you try to do another frame where, you know, we're speaking today on a Tuesday, tomorrow's Wednesday. All three of us are probably excited for what's coming tomorrow. And then when tomorrow comes, we're probably all excited about Thursday. So being excited about tomorrow is the same thing as living forever. You're just doing one tomorrow at a time. And so it really is just a, it's how the mind processes information. If you catch somebody off guard of living forever, but you don't give them a really constrained container, like it's this, it feels like this, it looks like this, and you feel safe like this. People are like, I don't know, man, that kind of sounds really scary. I don't think I want that. That's kind of, that's bad.

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  The impetus for this, having this conversation now is, is because of the, the health journey that Kate has been on. And so I want to hear more about how that has unfolded and what it is that you're trying to communicate publicly around women's health. We were chatting earlier. I shared that over the course of many years of hosting this podcast, I've, I've had the good fortune of conversing with many very accomplished women doctors who all, you know, share this, this sentiment that, you know, the science is lacking in terms of our understanding of, of the female body. Like when it comes to hormonal health and the issues that are unique to women,

• 13:03Rich Roll?

  that kind of get lumped in with just overall health and the canon of science that is, is, is basically, you know, all, all of these studies are essentially performed on men. And so there's a real gap in understanding. And I think there's a lot of women who suffer as a consequence of that oversight. And this is something that you've decided to address head on and do it with storytelling by sharing your own kind of personal experience with some of the things that you're contending with.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we're spending $2.6 million on my protocol. I'm measuring 1,900 biomarkers. I'm doing around 100 days of this, just to get baseline data on what happens to a female's body as she goes through the menstrual cycle. So like, you can think about the female body as a waveform. And we know generally there's a waveform, like, you know, X biomarker changes in this way, and this biomarker changes this way. But we don't actually have enough robust data on exactly what happens through the female body. And so I'm taking on that challenge with Brian's protocol and setting it up. What we were able to do was like, take his baseline pretty much one day, and then start off the races in terms of optimizing. But for female health, we don't have the luxury of having this huge data set

• 14:18Speaker 04

  on what we can compare me to and actually understanding the female body. So like, for example, something as simple as cholesterol, we know that in the first half of the cycle, it can be up to 19% higher, the result, than in the second half of the cycle. So there's one study that looked at this in women, and around 6% of women actually tested high, above, out of range for cholesterol in the first half, and then they get tested again, and they're back into the normal range. And so it has these implications because nobody, when they go to the doctor to get their blood drawn, is being asked what, where are you at in your cycle? So we can compare reference ranges for cholesterol specifically. And so another study looked at around 400 metabolites in the blood. So these like downstream byproducts that are happening in the body.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  And around half of them, they discovered did fluctuate through the cycle. But that has not been characterized. So we, that's, we know it moves. We don't know how, we don't know what's normal. And it's a really hard measurement problem. Because to be able to do that, you need lots of women tracking their hormones daily. And then as soon as, you know, the LH surge happens, and you transition into the second half of your cycle, you go in for blood work testing. That's an extremely logistically complicated problem to solve. And so we thought, why don't we start with my body and see if we can create the most quantified menstrual cycle ever? And so now I'm on day 29 of that process.

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  And the impetus for this was an endometriosis diagnosis.

• 15:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:43Rich Roll?

  Can you talk a little bit about that? What is endometriosis? How is it traditionally treated? And how are you kind of like treating this differently? Or using it as a, a means to better understand the female body?

• 15:57Speaker 04

  You know, actually, we started this process. And then as my team were asking me about my health background, I was like, oh yeah, I think I have suspected endometriosis. And they were like, oh, okay, when did that happen? I was like, seven years ago. Did you do anything about it? No, like I got heard when I was like 22 from the doctor. You know, you can go get surgery to figure it out. And I'm not getting surgery. I have no idea. I'm young in New York, and I'm like, I'm not doing that. And so all this time goes by, and my symptoms get more and more severe. But because it's a general trend, and I know that surgery is the option, I'm like, I don't want to go down that process. Then Brian hears about it, and he's like, I think we can solve that. And so he starts calling doctors and scientists from around the world, sometimes at 4:00 AM when he first wakes up, so that he can catch them in various time zones.

• 16:42Speaker 04

  And through just pure persistence, like in a startup-like mentality, he able to essentially organize four different ways to confirm my diagnosis and get me diagnosed in something like 42 days. So like, an insane change. Whereas women typically take six and a half years to get a diagnosis. So they live with it for a very, very long time.

• 17:02Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:04Rich Roll?

  I mean, what is it? And, and how many women suffer from this?

• 17:08Speaker 04

  It's around 1 in 10 confirmed women suffering from it. But the suspicion is that it's much, much more. Cause it's such a general disease that affects so many people. And lots of women just never get a diagnosis. And what it is, is in the uterine lining, you have cells that grow outside of the lining. And then that creates problems because they act as if they're still in the uterus. And so they cause all these issues, like fusing organs together, scarring, having nerve firing, so that they're very, very painful. And so like, for example, one of the symptoms that's very obvious for endo that I experienced is pain while defecating on my period. You know, somewhere in my bowel system, there's endo lesions

• 17:50Speaker 04

  that are firing while I'm on my period and just causing excruciating pain.

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  And so this is something that, that develops over a long period of time, hence six and a half years before a proper diagnosis?

• 18:04Speaker 04

  No, the reason it's that long is because surgery is the traditional way of diagnosing it.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 18:10Speaker 04

  And it's expensive to get surgery. It's very invasive. And so women just put up with it.

• 18:15Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Or they go to the doctor saying, hey, I have painful periods. And the doctor will be like, that's normal. And then I send home. But there's a real missing education around what is endo? What can you do about it? So what we were able to do, we got a transvaginal ultrasound that came back negative. Then we went and got an endo-specific protocol. Cause it turns out you really need someone who's trained to do these ultrasounds for endo specifically. And then it came back positive. Same thing with my MRI. Firstly, it came back negative. We went and did an endo protocol for MRI, came back positive. I got a blood test done, and I also got a saliva test done. So with four different modalities, we were able to like kind of triangulate this and get confirmed diagnoses. And at the same time, I also got diagnosed with two other issues.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  At the same time, I had no idea that I had PMOS, formerly known as PCOS, and then a condition called adenioma. So my uterus is essentially swollen, and it shouldn't be.

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  So 10% of women are suffering from this. It goes undiagnosed, misdiagnosed, or diagnosed late. And traditionally, the treatment is surgery, and that's it. Right? And so the exploration that you're on is, are there better ways of detecting this? And are there alternative treatments that could be effective short of like having to cut you open?

• 19:32Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 19:33Rich Roll?

  And where are we at with that?

• 19:34Speaker 04

  Oh, man, it's so sad. So much of it is just like pushing things forward. Like, it's like, it's laying there. So we're actually right now working on getting this blood, blood test available so that women in the US can go and get this blood test drawn at home. And that'll give them signal, signal on if they've got it or not, without having to go and get an expensive MRI or ultrasound.

• 19:54Rich Roll?

  Reliable test, so you don't have to do all of the, the multiplicity of tests that you had to do to really confirm this diagnosis.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:02Rich Roll?

  And why is that not already widely available?

• 20:06Speaker 04

  A combination of sexism, people not knowing about this disease, the fact that it is, there's many different ways that this disease can present itself. Yeah, it's just an infrastructure issue, just not enough attention on this so far.

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  And is this initiative something that's being celebrated by the broader medical community? Are you getting pushback and criticism? Like, what is the feedback then?

• 20:33Bryan Johnson?

  Very positive.

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Are there women doctors who are like, finally, like, I'm glad somebody's doing this? Because a lot of the criticism that you get, Brian, is like, well, if you have all this money, you're spending all this money on yourself, like, why don't you put it into trials, you know, like, gold standard science? You could be, you could be approaching this totally differently that would benefit humanity and also, you know, kind of serve the purpose that, you know, this, this mission that you're on. These N of one experiments, like, how valid are they really? So it's easy to like, you know, for like, a traditional scientist medical approach to like, have a, a battery of criticisms around like, what you guys are doing. But this seems like it's something that you've, is not, you're not getting that kind of.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  No, like a sigh of relief, like, finally, and especially like, Brian, as a male in power, dedicating his brand, his platform to this cause, like, just women around the world, and especially in academic setting, they're just like, finally, somebody's gonna put the spotlight on this. So, yeah, it's really a testament, like, Brian truly, um,

• 21:36Speaker 04

  I have a hard time accepting love and being seen and being taken care of. And, but that entire first process, like, Brian was just like, all in, reading books on female health, educating himself. So, yeah, I was really lucky.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  You're feeling seen.

• 21:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, and it's complicated as a result. It's really complicated.

• 21:57Rich Roll?

  About that. Yeah. Why do you feel that way?

• 22:00Speaker 04

  Kate, what do you think after having been with me for five years?

• 22:04Bryan Johnson?

  Uh, yeah, I, so Kate, we've been trying to get to the bottom of this, actually, and that the hypothesis we had is that Kate is not legible to herself.

• 22:16Rich Roll?

  What does that mean?

• 22:17Bryan Johnson?

  She, she can't understand herself. She struggles to understand herself. And I think, and we also were trying to explore this hypothesis that women are not broadly legible to society. And so when you read the history of female health, the, the same words the Greeks used, they're trying to understand planetary alignment. And so they were, you know, they, they were trying to figure out planets, and they would like, draw these circles, like, they spin in circles to make sense of the, of, of the orbits, because they couldn't make sense. Because their assumption was, they thought it was stationary, and the planets are circling the earth.

• 22:54Rich Roll?

  First of all, like, I like, I ask a question about like, Kate's psychology, and you're talking about like, planets and.

• 22:59Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. And so in the same way, they, they refer to a, the womb as the same kind of chaotic structure. So they're like, the planets are chaotic, and the female womb is chaotic. And so there's a deep history of seeing females as chaotic, as like, systems that like, can't be understood. And that's, it's not like a, a centrial thing, it's recent. And so there's a bunch of carryover where women have never been as legible to the world as men, because they're more complicated, in the same way as planetary, you know, planets were at some point in time. But the, the women thing's never fully resolved. And so that's what

• 23:41Bryan Johnson?

  we've been working on is, is impart what Kate is doing by this quantification, is by showing how her microbiome changes throughout her cycle, and her eyesight, and pain tolerance, and metabolism, and breast size, and, and, and, and, and. You basically see, like, there's a system that moves, just not in ways that have been intelligible or legible. But, but really, it's a system that, you know, that produces life, like, that like, produces these cycles. And so, in many ways, we've been trying to like, figure out how to explain this to the world. It's not just about biomarkers. Kate is not trying to be the healthiest person in the world. She's not trying to biohack herself. It's a legibility project. And to me, that could really the heart of like, what does it mean to be female? And what

• 24:25Bryan Johnson?

  does it mean to be a male, understanding a female?

• 24:31Rich Roll?

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• 27:09Rich Roll?

  Well, legibility is, is an interesting word choice. I mean, it's really marginality, like, you know, the long history of women being marginalized, and men being confused by women and being dismissive of them, and just saying, well, they're complicated, or like, she's being hysterical. And, you know, that, that's the real context here of like, like, talk about, you know, an idea that we've incepted. It's like, oh, this, this less than perspective of women and what they're capable of, et cetera, that has, you know, been a real violence in terms of like, you know, existence and, you know, kind of the shared consciousness, et cetera, like, in an expansive way, like, it's really, you

• 27:52Rich Roll?

  know, an awful legacy, how, how we have treated women, perceived them, made assumptions about them. And that's reflected in the canon of science, in terms of how we understand them. And this is sort of an antidote to that. Legibility is a digestible word that, that sort of sidesteps, like, you know, like, just this really awful history in terms of how we've conceptualized women and their, their role and their, their strength and their power and the like in society. And so this is like a, a small example of just, let's celebrate these women, let's, let's, let's improve that, let's change that understanding.

• 28:30Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Like, one simple thing with her endometriosis is that, like, I've been working on my language to communicate to men, what is endometriosis? So how is it the case that you have this?

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  This is a whole black box to us. Like, I don't know, like, my daughter had an issue, and I was like, I don't know, this is like a girl problem, you know, like, it's a mystery, you know, we don't talk, we don't talk about it, it's between the women, you know, like, this is, this is not functional, right?

• 28:53Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly. So if you were hanging out, you're my friend, you're like, oh, Brian, I've never heard of endometriosis. What is it? I'm like, okay, Rich, it's like, one in 10 women, so it's a major disease, right? So what, here's what it is. It's like an alien is inside of you, fusing your guts together, and then it feels like you're kicking the balls.

• 29:14Bryan Johnson?

  That's what endometriosis is. Now, if a man is experiencing that, they're like, man, this sucks. We gotta solve this. So it's like this.

• 29:22Rich Roll?

  But with women, it's like, oh, you're being, you're, you know, like, you know, you're being emotional or like, you know, like, just it'll go away. Or like, yeah, the dismissiveness of that.

• 29:32Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 29:33Speaker 04

  Yeah. At the same time, I've been super humbled. I was hoping this was just an issue of historical sexism making its way into the medical world. And of course it is, but I've been really humbled through this experience of like, I'm a systems person. We built a business together. I'm extremely like, you know, if I want to solve a problem, I'll go and solve it. It is so hard to measure myself. It like just being able to separate the noise in measurement on just one person doing the same thing every day versus the signal of my body's actually changing. That's one thing. And then you stack up. Okay. You want to do that for hormones. So you can correlate it with where you're at in the cycle. Most people, most people think women ovulate on day 14, halfway through a 28 day cycle.

• 30:17Speaker 04

  Most women actually don't have a 28 day cycle. Most women actually ovulate on day 17, but it's incredibly variable. Like I think I ovulated this year, this cycle on like day 23 or something like that. And so there's like tons of myths around this, but what it means is that it's very variable. So how to kind of lock down in our existing paradigm of how we consider measurement, that process is incredibly difficult. And if I was to try and measure a hundred women at once, I'm not sure how I would go about it robustly to the standards by which science has currently set up our system of what we consider justice in terms of good science, you know?

• 30:59Speaker 04

  So I think we need a paradigm shift entirely. And that's actually why weirdly the N of one may be the perfect entry point that actually we may discover population level science on women through many, many N of one experiments at home. And then with that, you're able to kind of detach the signal from the noise.

• 31:16Rich Roll?

  Right. And at some point concocted the best clinical trial that you could run at scale.

• 31:23Speaker 04

  Yes. And it might look entirely different than what it does for men right now.

• 31:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But in the immediate kind of day to day of like dealing with this condition and trying to understand it, what else have you discovered that you think would be helpful to a woman who's watching or listening to this, who is struggling with that right now?

• 31:42Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, we, so we have a master plan to cure endometriosis.

• 31:47Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  Right up, right up our alley.

• 31:50Bryan Johnson?

  So first.

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  The, the, the, the hubris sitting right alongside the humility.

• 31:56Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, exactly. So like first, I'm going to give to the haters. So, you know, Kate and I did this documentary on Netflix. We are bright eyed, but she tells we're like, we're gonna, you know, take on death. And then within a year, we both have a diagnosis of an incurable disease.

• 32:12Rich Roll?

  It's so delicious.

• 32:13Bryan Johnson?

  It's so delicious. So there you go haters like.

• 32:15Rich Roll?

  Autoimmune disease for you, endometriosis.

• 32:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:19Rich Roll?

  Uh, you know, karma is alive and real.

• 32:21Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly. So like, there you go. It's a gift. Now, also, the dual diagnosis has been the best thing that could have ever happened to us. Because like, if you think about this from the universe's perspective, irony is always going to show up and play a role. So it's a journey now, right? Like if we are to be, don't die, we both have to cure our incurable diseases. There's just no path forward. So either they get us or we get them. But there's just no middle ground.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  It's clarifying.

• 32:51Bryan Johnson?

  So like, you know what? We've got, we have our tasks laid out for us very clearly. So we have been hustling both. And we immediately got to work. So we have a, we have probably on each of our teams, like three or four international groups helping us try to solve this. We've had all these people rally around the, the intent. So what we find is that the, in any given area, of course, there's a rich world exploring these things, but oftentimes they don't have the publicity or reach or focal point. And we happen to be that on these two diseases. And so we just rallied so many incredible people to work on these things.

• 33:33Bryan Johnson?

  And so we think we could potentially make significant headway on both within 12 months.

• 33:38Rich Roll?

  What is your autoimmune disease specifically? Uh, how is it impacting you? And where are you at in terms of like addressing it?

• 33:48Bryan Johnson?

  It's, I have no symptoms. It's basically, I don't really, I didn't realize I had it. So it is my immune cells mistakenly attack my stomach. So they basically eat my endothelial lining of my stomach. It is a autoimmune condition I had starting about 30 years ago with my thyroid. So it's been cooking in my body for a very long time. It has nothing to do with what I've been doing in the past five years. And in fact, had I not been taking strategic care of myself for the past five years, my diagnosis could be really bad. So just to be clear, because a lot of people, they think this autoimmune condition is from that. It's not. It's from a thyroid and.

• 34:26Rich Roll?

  Hypothyroidism.

• 34:27Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, hypothyroidism and the stomach are very closely linked in the immunology. So that's, that's the pairing. But it's not what I've been doing the past couple of years. So what we're doing now is we did two things. One is I got my immune system sequenced. So we did a blood draw. We got a million of my immune cells and we looked at each one of these guys individually, like who are you? What's your job? And what's your, you know, special key? And then I went under again, two weeks ago. Kate was there for it. So I went under general anesthesia. We had a, a scope down my throat and we took 24 biopsies on my stomach. And so we biopsied the actual autoimmune condition. We took those samples.

• 35:09Bryan Johnson?

  And then we did like an Ocean's Eleven style operation to cool them at the proper speed, deeper cool them at the proper speed, then cryopreserve them, transfer them over overseas to a special lab. So we now have a mini Brian growing in a dish from these immune cells. And so we'll take these, we'll actually get results in a couple of days. We'll take my biopsy and my immune system and say, now we have a full picture. Who are you guys? And what are you doing? And with that, we can then say, okay, we're going to do this therapy or that therapy and we'll carve out the path. But this has never been done before. We've done all of this in four weeks' time.

• 35:46Rich Roll?

  And how receptive is the traditional medical community to this initiative or this ambition?

• 35:52Bryan Johnson?

  It's purely, it's a scientific endeavor. It is as purely scientific as you can get. Yeah. So it's, it's like, uh, it doesn't, um, it doesn't get caught up in things like, you know, should you eat meat or vegetables? You know, where people are like going to war with each other? This is just a pure biology play.

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  Got it. Uh, you mentioned, uh, mini, mini Bryans growing in a Petri dish. You know, perhaps the, the, your greatest accomplishment in terms, in terms of like attention farming is this idea that you're cloning yourself, right? Like this is just headline bait and internet gold again. Uh, the reality of that is of course very different. So walk me through, uh, where you're at with that, what's going on? Basically what you're doing is you're, you're establishing a culture of pluripotent stem cells, right? Which are cells that can express them in any number of ways that can be replacement for cells that are diseased, et cetera, to, you know, eventually, and hopefully like

• 36:55Rich Roll?

  rebuild organs and all kinds of, you know, interesting things that are happening at the very, you know, sharp edge of these technological advances in medicine. Is that, is that accurate?

• 37:06Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. So the way this works is I did a blood draw, uh, 150 milliliters. You separate the, out the cells and you take the cells and then you apply Yamanaka factors. And that will reverse the age of my cells from 48 to zero epigenetically. So now they're in an embryonic light state. Now, what it doesn't do is my cells at age 48 has gone through a number of cell divisions. And I have these somatic mutations, like it has the errors in my DNA and my mitochondria. So it doesn't fix that. It takes the epigenetic age back to zero, so embryonic. So now I have these raw materials. So if I get a disease like an autoimmune condition and I need to rebuild my stomach lining,

• 37:47Bryan Johnson?

  I have my own cells. I can say, can we build, rebuild my stomach with my own embryonic like cells? So now I have the raw material to do that. Because if you take somebody else's cells, your body might reject it. You have the high risk. And so currently in the world, there's trials going on where people with Parkinson's disease are using their iPSEs induced pluripotent stem cells to replace the neurons that die in the Parkinson's process. And then also for heart failure. So it's the raw material. So the, the technology is phenomenal because.

• 38:20Bryan Johnson?

  Everybody should have their, their cells banked.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  Right. You have this bank and this is available to you if and when you're going to need it at some point in your life.

• 38:30Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly.

• 38:31Rich Roll?

  And on a surface level, it's like, okay, this is insane. This is some sort of Gattaca, you know, kind of situation.

• 38:40Rich Roll?

  And indulgence of a, you know, wealthy, privileged person, but it's just like anything else. I mean, when Elon Musk started Tesla, like his first offering was that like Lotus supercar, which was very expensive, but that's what you have to do to get to the Model three that's affordable, et cetera. So by dint of, of, of you kind of investing in this and trying to share understanding of it, the idea is that at some point, um, this will catch on, it will incept as an idea. And then with scale, these things become affordable and just second nature. On some level, we've already been doing this. You take like, when you have a baby, you can get, you can get the stem cells then, and you can bank them, et cetera, for

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  future. So it's not necessarily a new idea. It's just a more kind of like advanced, refined version of that.

• 39:29Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Yeah. We've done the same with my immune cells. So we, we did, uh, during this immune profile, we take my immune cells, we also bank them because you want to store your immune system as young as you possibly can, right? Cause every day you age and the cells have more somatic mutations. So I'm trying to basically take all of my body's raw material in the IPSCs, you take it back to zero, uh, genetically with the immune systems, you're taking 48 year old Brian, but still like your immune system is your ultimate weapon to detect disease and cure disease. And so we're trying to take all these precautions of like, this is the way for everybody eventually, like you're saying, to have a shot at, if we say that we are going to be able to extend our lifespans

• 40:11Bryan Johnson?

  and imagine a future where we're not decrepit, we're healthy and we're vibrant, we can rest, we can rejuvenate our organs. These will be the raw materials that will help along that path. So we're just like, it's, it's the next stage in our evolution. We are an example of what we're doing. Uh, we're an example that we're rolling this out to our customers today. So they, they also have access and we'll just, it'll get cheaper over time and more accessible.

• 40:33Rich Roll?

  How accurate are these, uh, biological age measurements? You know, like now we're all wearing wearables, et cetera, depending upon the device, you're, you get different analytics. These things vary wildly. Like I have one device that says I'm 44 years old. I've got another one that says I'm like one year younger than I am. Like the delta is gigantic, right? And I assume that you have a different measurement system that on some level you're going to contend is superior, but it does seem like, do we really, how like reliable is any of this? Or is this just all nonsense in the interest of like this longevity Olympics and the leaderboard of who's the youngest, et cetera?

• 41:13Speaker 04

  I'll take one example, um, Eight Sleep, um, they're just about to announce this. They did a age bracket where they had a model, like an AI model, and they showed it data of nights of sleep. And it said, the question to the AI was here are two separate nights of sleep. Is it from the same person or not? That was the only task that the AI had in determining this data set. So it just went through a bunch of iterations to find out, okay, yes, these two data sets are from the same people. These ones aren't, these ones are, these ones aren't, et cetera, et cetera. And it got checked on that ability. Through that process, essentially mapping, what is the same about these data sets to establish the same person versus what's different? What changes? Maybe you have alcohol the

• 41:55Speaker 04

  night before one, and so your breathing rate is a little bit higher. In that process, it actually ironically found all of the markers that are associated with age. So you're built, how good is your heart pumping blood, for example, is a really good age marker. So it was able to detect within, I think, three and a half years of precision, how accurately, how old that person is, just based on their sleeping patterns. And so that's an example of like scientifically backed, um, or the scientific process of within three years delta accuracy of that. And so then you apply, okay, take this person, have them sleep in this bed. What does their body act like? And it's like, okay, it acts like a 21 year

• 42:39Speaker 04

  old with, you know, a three year degree of margin. So some, uh, of these algorithms are just like, pretty much like washouts. You know, they're like, they just grabbed like three markers, put it together and they say, yeah, oh yeah, this is like typical of like a 21 year old. Others are actually like genuinely, um, predictive and accurate, and you can actually prove it with science.

• 42:59Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, you could probably just do a ranking. So one thing I'm proud of, we gave birth to biological age. Like everyone doing biological age markers has come from our initiative of like making it as a centerpiece of conversation and bringing people in. And so you can just take a ranking, if you look at volume of the brain via MRI, that's a very good marker predicting age, right? The brain shrinks with age. There's of course some variation according to certain things, but that's going to be a more powerful predictor than your off the shelf wearable. And so you just look at, we basically, in our effort, we are willing to accept hundreds of inputs into biological age. We know some are better than others. And so the one, like the wearables, we just kind of discount a little bit because

• 43:42Bryan Johnson?

  it's like, the, it's a, the measurement robustness is not as good. You have a lot of variability, et cetera. So yeah, I mean, biological age is a real thing. We visually can know that's true in our lives. And then depends on the measurement modality and the data behind it.

• 43:54Rich Roll?

  Sure. It depends on how, uh, how good these sensors are. I mean, it's like your wearable is never going to be a comp for like being in a sleep lab where you've got like, yeah, things all over you or whatever. And it's measuring you at a, at a, at a much more accurate level.

• 44:08Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  And then the algorithm making decisions about, uh, you know, where all of these metrics fall in the hierarchy of what's important.

• 44:16Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  And this percolates into, you know, social media discourse around this. One month it's VO2 max and the next month it's, you know, mitochondrial health and mitochondrial density. Like, you know, it's, it's all, it's all about like, it's, it's the human mind, like wanting to just, just give me like this one thing. And then I, I have certainty around that. It's more complicated. It's vastly more complicated than that. But for the average person who's thinking about their longevity, who's living on a budget, who has a busy life, you talk about these principles for, you know, how to like live an average life and do what you can within the constraints of your busy life on a budget to, you know, extend your long, your health span. And those are,

• 45:01Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  They're simple things.

• 45:02Bryan Johnson?

  They're very simple things. Yeah. I mean, I, we tell people to, to not be intimidated by the complexity of the world, the chaos, the disagreement, but just think about and understand their health through one marker, their resting heart rate before bed. It's an oversimplification, but also that's what makes it beautiful. And so when you go to, before you go to bed, your heart rate is basically an accounting system that tells you how much food did you consume? Did you drink alcohol? Are you stressed? Uh, did you stay up late? Did you have light in your eyes? You know, like it's basically, you can't cheat it. And so that resting heart rate is a representation of you and your entirety. And that will then determine how well you sleep. And sleep is, you know,

• 45:45Bryan Johnson?

  the best longevity drug in the entire world because it determines how you feel in life. When you're poorly rested, you have poor willpower, you're generally more discouraged. When you sleep well, you feel great. You want to exercise and eat well. So it creates that bifurcation of I do bad stuff or I do good stuff or I have the ability to do so. So yeah, we simplify and we just say, your task is to build your life to lower your heart rate before bed. Most people's current habits drive their heart rate up. So they eat late, they eat close to bed, they have a lot of light exposure, they are stressed, they'll work up until bedtime, they'll scroll on their phones. So the five rules are no food four hours before bed. So if your bedtime's 10, final food by six. Two is screens off,

• 46:29Bryan Johnson?

  30 minutes before bed. Three is a wind down routine. So in that last 30 to 60 minutes, read a book, go for a walk, talk to a friend, literally anything other than scrolling your phone or working. Uh, light, uh, be mindful. So like red and amber are great. White, uh, right. White and blue is bad. Uh, then, um, last caffeine by noon. And those five simple things, uh, dramatically changed people's lives because they finally get into a state where they can sleep well. A book in hand before bed and that wind down routine is the best thing you can do. It's, it's on par with a sleep medication. So, but really just trying to, you're trying to curb late night, bad habits, which come out when you're stressed, you're done, you just want to like do nothing. So those are the things we focus on.

• 47:13Rich Roll?

  After 10 PM, Brian. Uh, you know, Brian, you, you've surrendered your will over to these rules and, you know, it's removed all of the analysis paralysis and, and you're relatively robotic, robotic in your, your consistency with this. Like Kate, where's the sticking point? Like what, what is, where's the struggle?

• 47:31Speaker 04

  For him?

• 47:32Rich Roll?

  For you.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  For me?

• 47:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 04

  In what sense?

• 47:34Rich Roll?

  Like which is the hardest thing for you?

• 47:37Speaker 04

  For me?

• 47:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  Oh God, everything. This is like the antithesis of Kate. I was telling, we, I was meeting Brian somewhere the other day and I arrived at the garage with one kilometer left on my gas tank. Like I'm the most measurable female in the world, doing a hundred tasks a day, like this insane morning routine. And I arrive and I'm like, Brian, can you take me to the gas station so I can fill up like a canister, take it back to my car, fill up my car so I can get home. So yeah, no, this whole thing is just like the antithesis. I'm a creative, chaotic human being and structure is not my default mode.

• 48:07Rich Roll?

  What's the hardest?

• 48:09Speaker 04

  It's everything. Every morning I wake up at 6:30 AM on the dot. I immediately spit into a tube. I turn on my, my therapy light. So I get light in my eyes immediately. I put on a HI, HRV device and measure my HRV every morning. I log my subjective sleep score, my subjective feeling. I breathe into a mask for 10 minutes and measure my resting metabolic rate at rest. I take my blood pressure. I measure my face to check for like, is there bacteria growing in my skin as I get later into my cycle? I measure my reaction time, my grip strength. I measure my brain using essentially like a portable MRI device, the neurotech company, the Brian built Kernel. I measure my vaginal microbiome, my female

• 48:52Speaker 04

  hormones through urine, my cortisol through urine. I measure my breast size. I do my smart scales. Just goes on.

• 49:02Rich Roll?

  I mean, you have to understand that hearing that it comes across like some kind of obsessive compulsive, like neurotic condition.

• 49:13Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. That's what I'm saying.

• 49:15Rich Roll?

  So how sustainable is this really?

• 49:17Bryan Johnson?

  That has to me. That's not like a stained person to me.

• 49:21Speaker 04

  He's like, I love that routine. No, totally. I'm doing this because women need it. Somebody has to do it. There needs to be a Rosetta CERN for women to make, to translate it into the masculine world we live in of numbers and everything's digestible through data. And so I will, I will zip my mouth shut and do my task.

• 49:41Rich Roll?

  Doesn't the constriction of it like impinge upon your happiness and your ability to enjoy your life and the ways in which those are very important emotions to be able to channel and experience in terms of like your overall wellbeing?

• 49:56Speaker 04

  Yes. I am not doing this for my happiness.

• 50:00Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that.

• 50:01Speaker 04

  I am not doing it. On my second week, I had a panic attack. My cortisol was through the roof. Like now, fortunately, I'm in a routine where it's, I've stabilized. So I feel like I can go a little bit on autopilot in my five hour morning routine, but absolutely this is not happening. So that's why, as much as I can hit home, that like, we would rather be in a cabin, not living this life.

• 50:21Rich Roll?

  What about your girlfriends? Like, what do those texts look like? What do they think about all this?

• 50:26Speaker 04

  I mean, you know, my sister is an Olympic athlete. And so we've grew up in a family where we like hard things. And so everyone knows that I, I wake up, I'm alive. And I'm like, what do I do? That's the most valuable thing for humanity. And that's my, the way I look at things through. So my friends and family are like, you know what? That's just Kate. Like she's going to do her thing.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  One of the things I love about Rivian is the way they fill their vehicles with so much amazing high performance technology, but always make sure it feels like second nature, that it keeps that human touch. And a great example would be the haptic halo wheels on the new R2. On either side of the steering wheel, there's a dial that you could roll, push and pull to adjust things like the AC or skip to the next song. And they have this incredibly satisfying tactile feel because you're really clicking a button and rolling a mechanical wheel. I was recently able to drive an R2 with RJ Skarringe, the founder and CEO. And he shared the thinking behind this cool and unique feature. So walk me through the thinking on that because as technology is sort of informing

• 51:35Rich Roll?

  this screen only experience, there is something in the human animal that craves that kind of tactile control.

• 51:42Speaker 05

  Yeah. And that was part of what the logic was here is we, and that was from the feedback we had in R1 is the desire from some more mechanical touchpoints and also the ability to not have to use the multi-touch screen for everything. And so being able to HVAC through this side, your entertainment through that side, you also have drive modes in you as well.

• 52:03Rich Roll?

  There are just so many features packed into this vehicle. You can learn all about them, watch the rest of our conversation, and even book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com/richroll.

• 52:18Rich Roll?

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• 53:00Rich Roll?

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• 53:35Rich Roll?

  You're confronting people with uncertainty in a way that is discomforting, right? Like if we're questioning these things, we're questioning the very nature of reality as we understand it, right? And, and, and that's a difficult pill to swallow. I'm curious around how your experience with psilocybin has informed that perspective because I've had my own experience with that.

• 54:00Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I mean, Kate did both live streams with me. I mean, I guess my favorite thing.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  I mean, this is, this was internet gold, you know, like you're live streaming this, you've got like Grimes coming on, there's special guests, you're putting on a show. It's all part and part of like this bizarre rom com that you guys are living. Like this, this whole thing is like, it's total theater on one level, while also trying to get at something meaningful at the same time.

• 54:28Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I mean, one, I'm very proud that this was the most quantified psychedelic experiment ever done. We bridged psilocybin into the world of longevity, whereas before it's been an ancient medicine. It's been more recently in clinical trials for various, you know, indications. And we've bridged to longevity. And I'm very proud of that. So it's now people are seeking funding for that. So that would be cool if psilocybin were understood as a longevity therapy. But then I think our adventure spirit as a species is to look outward, which makes sense. Our eyes point forward, our brain is right behind us. So in many ways, our brain is kind of hidden from our own perspective. So we see the world and we say, I want to climb that mountain, or I want to go to that star, or

• 55:11Bryan Johnson?

  I want to go to that moon, or I want to go to this place. We very much think about ourselves moving forward with visual contact moving forward. And psychedelics, you reverse that, right? You're actually going to things you can't see and you're exploring the inner world. And if we map the space of exploration going forward, and you say, what is, how big is space and how, how fast can you get there? What is the space internally? I think it's possible internal exploration is the new world of exploration, even though right now Mars and the moon kind of has the zeitgeist of like, how do we be adventurous as a species? What is, what is cool to do? And I think this is certainly, you know, you find these kind of thought processes in the world of psychedelics, but as we get really good at

• 55:54Bryan Johnson?

  drug design with, with AI, we, I mean, if you look at the number of possible psychedelic molecules that have the capacity to be like psilocybin or 5-MO DMT, it's very large. And if you can now start designing these and constructing experiments, you may find that like that itself is the deliciousness of the future. Our ability to start changing the ways we process reality in ways that, you know, in new ways that like, almost like a GLP-1, but for consciousness, right? Like if these, these modifications of how we process the world that just fundamentally change how we understand ourselves and how we go about. So I think that to me is very promising.

• 56:36Rich Roll?

  What was your experience, Kate?

• 56:39Speaker 04

  I mean, I think it was reflective of our roles where I can't imagine having so much faith in your own mind to be able to do that on a live stream and then not only do that, but then do 5-MO DMT on a live stream too. So my experience was just like, how can I be the container for Brian in this moment such that there's a safety net here that if he wobbles, that there's like some buffering around him. So yeah, I was just really proud and, and in awe of his ability to like navigate that so, such a complex space publicly and in lifetime.

• 57:17Rich Roll?

  I mean, for me, it just gave me a humility and a capaciousness. Like it just rewrote my understanding of reality, like how we process time, like you're saying tomorrow and the next day. And it's like, this is all an illusion, you know? Like I went in thinking I'm going to heal this childhood wound and it sort of said, well, that's really cute. Let me just show you the way things actually are. And you know, it just, not a day goes by that I don't think about it. And it has fundamentally altered my convictions around like what's real. And I'm becoming increasingly convinced that, that, you know, the real outer space is the nature of consciousness. I really don't think that this materialist definition of consciousness is correct. You know, it's called the hard problem for a

• 57:59Rich Roll?

  reason. And the materialist definition just always falls apart. And I think that like we're all, I think that there is one vast consciousness and the material world is a projection of that as much as anything else. Like it seems, it seems like that, that makes more sense in the wake of having that experience. Whether or not that's true is almost irrelevant to my daily experience because it's enriched me in that way and gave me a different lens on how to make decisions and navigate, you know, the difficulties of being in a human body.

• 58:31Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 58:32Speaker 04

  I feel like that's part of what you see for yourself, having gone through these experiences is like, that's the prize on the other side of this ginormous transformation we're going through as a species that potentially it's the tools and ability to be able to go and explore that freely. Like, do you know what I'm saying? Like the 10th dimension type of thinking?

• 58:51Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 58:52Speaker 04

  What is it?

• 58:53Bryan Johnson?

  What I really enjoy about these thought experiments is, and the one, the contrast I always use, which makes sense to me, is contrasting myself with Homo erectus, a million years, a million years ago. So let's just say, we are going to experience a million years equivalent of evolutionary advance in the next, what, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And that we have access to our root biology, right? We now can, we can design these molecules. We can discover these molecules, the speeds that would defy any previous model. And so if you, if that's the stage, then I don't think it's a reasonable basis at all to imagine that what is, will be, that we'll have the same motivations, same

• 59:37Bryan Johnson?

  aspirations, same characteristics. I mean, we see even now like GLP-1s turn off a hunger response, like a primal need of the body just gets turned off with an injection, right? That is crazy. What other primal things just get turned off? And so, or on, or, or, created. And so I guess like what I like about this is I like that you can basically Ask a question with no assumptions about what would be limited is a full suite of possibilities. And so that to me is the most exciting moment.

• 1:00:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's a fundamentally optimistic view of what's going on. And it's not that I don't share it, but I think I couch it with recognition that humans are they're overconfident in their predictive abilities. Like, we kind of think we know how things are going to go. And the history of our species is that we rush forward impulsively and break things. And then deal with the unforeseen ramifications in the aftermath. And I don't see any precedent for this being any different. And so in your example of like homo erectus, it's like dropping and giving them an atom bomb and saying like, figure out how to use this.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  Like, you know, like, like, we're literally playing with fire and the fire is more potent in ways that we can't possibly imagine. And I think we're arrogant to think that we can control it and put these guardrails on and make it work for us. What are we like intentionally bringing in like in a way that we're, we're not, we're not developed enough to really truly understand? Like, how is that experiment going to go? Right? And I think anybody who says they know how it's going to go is going to be proven incorrect.

• 1:01:23Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, well, I agree with that. This is the struggle for literally anybody on planet earth to say anything intelligent.

• 1:01:32Rich Roll?

  Right, it's back to that premise then.

• 1:01:33Bryan Johnson?

  And so.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  So, and, and we're just going to do it. We're going to do it. We're going to barrel forward and we're going to see what happens.

• 1:01:39Bryan Johnson?

  Yes.

• 1:01:39Rich Roll?

  And what will be, will be.

• 1:01:40Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. And so the guard, the only guardrail I want to have in place, which again, this, I'm not saying this guardrail is not going to have also negative consequences, because everything always is a double, double edged sword. But I think the guardrail I want to have in place is that we as a species prioritize existence. That we say, what, what we can say would might be bad is we don't want to go to war with each other. We don't want to put ourselves in that kind of situation. We don't want to kill each other. We, we don't want to be making products and services that kill other humans or make them degraded in their, in their ability to give them disease. Like some basic rules, the road of like, can we agree? We don't have to be kumbaya.

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  Don't we already agree on that? It's just that our actions belie that sentiment.

• 1:02:21Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah, I mean, there, there is a starting point, like, you know, if you look over the past couple of decades, we've made good progress, right? Marching those basic principles forward, but still we are a society that says your highest status is given with abstract, you know, accumulation of money, power and status. That's, that's the ultimate trophy we give out to people in society. So I'd say that, that, but that trophy has side effects and consequences. Now it's a good engine of innovation, but it says, we will give you that trophy. Even if you kill yourself, even if you kill others, and even if you kill the planet, you still get the trophy.

• 1:03:02Bryan Johnson?

  And so we just have some misalignment among us humans on what is worth doing and what is worth granting someone a trophy.

• 1:03:09Rich Roll?

  Hmm. I'm in total agreement with the power, property and prestige incentive structure of our society being misaligned with human flourishing. While also acknowledging, yes, it's, it's given us, you know, all of this bounty and incentivizes people to work hard and innovate and, and all the like. It's also given rise to, you know, tremendous economic disparity and suffering and addiction. And, you know, all the like that you talk about all the time. And so another kind of like substrate underneath all of this is a questioning of these, of these systems, right? From government to healthcare, et cetera. And back to like the Jeffersonian dinner that I attended.

• 1:03:52Rich Roll?

  You know, that was populated with some interesting characters who are questioning our governmental systems.

• 1:03:59Rich Roll?

  In a way, maybe I don't agree with. I appreciate the curiosity to engage with a difference of opinion about like where we should go.

• 1:04:10Rich Roll?

  But I can't help but think that there is this strain of wealthy tech personality. These people like yourself who are very wealthy and have figured out a way to like bend the universe to their will. And then in the wake of that, like, enjoy, you know, the, the benefits of that, like surround themselves with the trappings of wealth, et cetera, only to discover like, oh, well, this isn't actually like fulfilling in a way that I thought it was.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  And in the, in that kind of like history of being able to like make shit happen and, and the kind of hubris that can set in with that, like, I know better than everybody because I was successful in this regard. The, the real frustration is that you can't, you can't bend time. Like, you know, like time and your mortality are hanging out there. It doesn't matter how powerful or prestigious you are, et cetera. And so what are we going to do about that, you know? And so hence, we see this movement around very wealthy people trying to expend their, extend their health span, et cetera. And with that kind of galaxy brain mentality, there's a sense of like, well, we need to change the government and it needs to be this way. And we know better and like, people shouldn't really have to vote, you know?

• 1:05:28Rich Roll?

  They shouldn't, they shouldn't have the right to vote, like, we should just, what they really need is a strong leader. And like, maybe a techno autocratic society would be better. Like, where are you on that? I think it would be good to like, have a little bit of clarity of around like where you fall and that, because it's, it's simpatica with this idea of like, giving your, like surrendering your decision-making and your will over to like a superpower AI. Similarly, in a government context, like, let's just have somebody who is in charge. We're going to trust them with our wellbeing and society would be better. Does that make sense?

• 1:06:03Bryan Johnson?

  It does.

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:04Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. I've steered clear of any political engagement and any expression of opinion. I think our existence is about a singular thing. We're trying to change the objective function of the human race from power, prestige and wealth to existence. Now you can still achieve power, wealth and status in the pursuit of existence of the same things work. But our only objective is that swap. And, and primarily because I do think that like on some grand scale in the universe, there's this question, where is life?

• 1:06:49Bryan Johnson?

  Are we the only life? Is it true that other species get to a point of advance like we are and they destroy themselves? Like, we're, we're playing the biggest of all possible games. And politics plays a game in the species we do, you know? It's like a part of our, of our society. I don't think my opinions matter in that regard. We are, as far as I know, we are a singular voice of this new philosophy. If you look at planet earth, who is fighting for existence? Like, who is actually saying like, you guys, this is very precious. This, it's unbelievable. We're actually conscious, all of us on this planet. Our planet is precious and delicate.

• 1:07:33Bryan Johnson?

  And we should probably suspend everything that compromises

• 1:07:39Bryan Johnson?

  or, or makes us weak in our ability to persist as a species. And so I'd rather us be a singular voice, a singular focus than I would dabble in all these little side quests, which create an acrimony disagreement, it was splinter. We're trying to be more of a unifying focus. And like, this is true among all religions, political class, all people. So we're really trying to be extremely narrow in what we say and what we're trying to achieve.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:08:05Speaker 04

  It was also one of the things that like, was really important to me when we first started dating. Cause we were private for three years before we announced our relationship. And a big part of that three years was a, like, what happens when we reach conflict? How do we resolve that? It's also like, I remember having conversations with you really early on being like, I don't know, like, what happens? If we become really successful in this path? Like, who are you going to be on the other side of that? And are you going to be that person that you're describing that doesn't realize that they're pursuing something and then ultimately changes their mind? And Brian was really clear. He was like, Kate, like, I've already been successful in all these ways and like it, and who am I?

• 1:08:44Speaker 04

  I've set my life up in a way where he's devoting his body to the bigger picture of humankind. And that really for me was like, okay, yeah, I actually, I believe that and I see that. And it's held true that the more power we gain, we try to have real integrity that we are devoted to the cause rather than to our own individual self-interests. And of course, like I'm, we're, you know, faultable human beings. And so I'm sure there's plenty of ways that I'm like, not able to see that that still holds. But I think out of the people, you know, like where we're really trying to, our essence is in devotion of a cause.

• 1:09:21Rich Roll?

  Hmm. You have the property box checked and this kind of social media celebrity is sort of checking the prestige box on some level like it's human to like enjoy the attention and all of that. So how do you keep that in check? So it doesn't become this hypnotic addictive thing where you're serving a digital audience?

• 1:09:44Bryan Johnson?

  We don't care about it.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  You don't care about it?

• 1:09:47Bryan Johnson?

  For for real, I think we would, we would be happier in a cabin in the woods doing our

• 1:09:53Rich Roll?

  I don't buy that. I don't buy that. You're loving this dude. Come on.

• 1:09:57Bryan Johnson?

  You speak up.

• 1:09:58Speaker 04

  I mean, we have this conversation all the time. It's a sacrifice. I know that sounds like insane to say, but you you become not a human, you're a symbol and that's a giant, that's the biggest trade off you can make in life. Like you walk somewhere and people relate to you as something that you're not ultimately. They relate to you as a symbol. They think you are versus who you are. And so we like knowingly have walked into that being like we accept those terms. Sure, like it's fun at times, but you know, are we going out to parties in the weekends, like having these really insane lavish lives? Like, no, we're like hanging out, playing pickleball, watching a movie.

• 1:10:37Rich Roll?

  It seems that you've you've backed away from, there was a moment, maybe a year ago, where it was like, oh, you're entering guru terrain, like, you know, these don't die get togethers, which are cool, like these community events, but it was, there was sort of a dr- the same drapery around like, you know, cult status stuff. And it seems like you've retreated from that. Is that a, is that true? Is that a conscious thing?

• 1:11:01Bryan Johnson?

  I wouldn't say retreat. I think a truly intelligent being on planet Earth right now would say, okay, let me survey the situation. I am on a habitable planet with resources. I'm going to measure the energy capacity of my distant stars. I have this much capacity to exist, and these are the threats that could undermine my existence. That would be like the most coherent thought process of an intelligent being. And instead, we branch off into these groups like I hate you because of blank, or I want to pursue this because of my own sensory needs of feeling status or power. But like, we are, we are an intelligent species, but

• 1:11:42Bryan Johnson?

  we are also an idiotic species, right? Because if you're really truly intelligent, you're just, you just want to exist and you want to not die. And so we just have never had that opportunity. And as a species, we vote, death has always been inevitable. Therefore, we make up these other games like religions and afterlives and these status gains for capitalism and accumulation. But I guess like, to get to your point, this is not about fame. It's not about attention. It's not about we personally, while like, we would so much rather be playing another game. We're trying to, we're trying to pierce this moment with our best intellect and say, in the like, the most sober way possible, how can you say something intelligent?

• 1:12:27Bryan Johnson?

  Without getting distracted and all the primal things that occupy our minds. So, but that genuinely is, is our thing. So they don't die, back to your question on the gatherings, we were formulating a hypothesis on how you build, don't die globally. It's like build these, these events, build up local chapters. And we came back because we said we were not convinced this is the right strategy. What you really want to do. And so we wrote two essays. Kate wrote one called the antientropic systems. I wrote one called immortalism. And Kate's frame was like, you want to basically build antientropic systems. Like, think of it like, a nation state is an antientropic system. Like, it propels itself over time. A religion propels us over time. And individuals, if you look at it through an age perspective,

• 1:13:11Bryan Johnson?

  religions are the most enduring institution society has ever created. They're remarkably resilient. The actually DNA even exceeds religions. And so we're trying to say like, how do you build this incredibly resilient structure that rides through the next couple centuries with AI and however it emerges? And so I approached it via math. Kate approached it through this framework. We said, basically, we don't think the move right now is to build a human based system of organization. It's you have to build like a computational model that works on entropy. Like they, like basically, you have to give AI the philosophy and the

• 1:13:54Bryan Johnson?

  math to go after this objective. So we wrote this out in the essays, but that's probably a very confusing answer.

• 1:14:02Speaker 04

  I'll, I'll take a stab at it. Um, we stopped the don't die summits because they reached like 1,700 people per time, whereas our social media efforts reach millions of people every time. And so it's just a strategy on like communication. An antientropic system is like, why has Christianity been around for 2000 years and there's no CEO in charge? And I'm not saying that there's not some spiritual element to it that propels it. I'm saying, why has it survived that long? Out of all of our institutions, why has that and other religions survived for so long? So something about the structure of that allows it to defy entropy for that long. And you can pair that to, you know, the world's most powerful company as of when I wrote this was like Nvidia. And that's been around for I think like 33 years

• 1:14:47Speaker 04

  or something like that. And so like the contrast there on how antientropic is Nvidia versus Christianity. Christianity has proven itself so far to be much more antientropic. So what structure would allow itself for us to build to be as antientropic as possible? People currently point themselves at companies. They say that is the best place for me to spend our time. Our hypothesis is that there are so many other antientropic systems that people don't look at right now, that are higher chance success that have been pooed by society because they're not in the zeitgeist. So religion is one of those things incredibly important. Our brains operate through storytelling and it's untapped that we have no zeitgeist

• 1:15:32Speaker 04

  storytelling to connect us as a species. On the individual level, yeah, we care about each other and we won't, you know, do something horrible for 50 bucks. But on the global level, we create systems for that exact exchange because on the global level, there's something missing in terms of our zeitgeist storytelling. So the guru element is, it's framed in that way, right? Because that's the way we relate to it today. But what we're trying to say is, science has bulldozed through storytelling. It's made it very hard to believe in bigger picture stuff, because science is extremely sound. It's really like entered the zeitgeist. How can you pair storytelling of our species to soothe our conscious minds and science at

• 1:16:15Speaker 04

  the same time? That's what immortals don't die is.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  Humans are storytelling animals. We use story to understand the world. It's how we relate to each other. It's how we form emotional bonds. And I think you're, you're correct in saying that we've like, lost our appreciation for the stories that we rely upon to like, understand what's important, et cetera. We've supplanted it with the rationalist model with, you know, kind of the enlightenment of, of science. And we've, we've kind of put that on, you know, the pedestal as the ultimate in human understanding at the cost of storytelling. And when you were sharing, Brian, I was thinking about the movie Inception. Have you seen this

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  movie? So the most antropic thing is, is an idea, right? Like, how do you incept an idea? It's not about an individual. And once that idea is firmly planted, it has antropic properties, right? It will, it will outlast and have a certain legacy that is in contingent upon a certain individual. And as much as, you know, Jesus Christ is fundamental to Christianity, it, it, it exists beyond that individual as an idea, as a story. You know, you look at Alcoholics Anonymous, there's nobody in charge, there's no boss. Like, this is an idea, right? That is about a shared agreement and a story amongst people, right? And so the idea that you are trying to incept is this challenge to a presupposition around

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  our mortality. Is that essentially what you're trying to say?

• 1:17:48Bryan Johnson?

  You said it so well. We are playing inception with life, consciousness. That's entirely what we're doing. We're implanting an idea in humans' minds about what it means to exist as an intelligent being. You start at that base. If I wake up and I'm intelligent, what do I care about? What are my priorities? How do I relate to you? What stories do I tell? We're trying to get at the core of like that thing. And, and around it, of course, is like, we've got thousands and thousands of years of stories and, and architecture and culture and ethics and norms. And this has a friction with what we're doing, which you've pointed out. But that's what we hit at every day. We're basically, we're provoking

• 1:18:33Bryan Johnson?

  that and reminding people there's a contrast with the way they understand reality. And there's a different way to understand reality. And that may be scary initially, but if you just can slow walk bit by bit, you can kind of warm people up, you can thaw them out. If you look at the, actually, we did this deep analysis on sentiment towards us for the past five years. And you look at the chart, it was deeply negative. When this went viral initially, people were just like, I'm repulsed by this situation. It has steadily climbed, where now we just cross over majority positive. And so we now have defenders actively out there. So it has been unbelievable that the zeitgeist has changed so fast in a five year

• 1:19:15Bryan Johnson?

  time period to almost be thought of like, we might be open to new ideas about ourselves in the world.

• 1:19:21Speaker 04

  And that's why we're willing to make the trade off of losing our day to day existence for it.

• 1:19:28Rich Roll?

  If you had to distill, you know, this definition of reality, or this like, different understanding of it down to, you know, like, like a log line, like, what is that?

• 1:19:42Bryan Johnson?

  Yes, to existence. So I, I personally experienced this with 5MEO DMT. So it's an entheogen, right? And I did 27 milligrams, which is a gigantic dose. So for those listening, you know, it's like 5MEO psilocybin, like they're kind of like in the same, like similar worlds. That took me to the most challenging experience I've ever had in my entire life. It was also the pinnacle. It was like peak experience I've had as a conscious being. And where I went is

• 1:20:18Bryan Johnson?

  To the absolute epicenter of existence. And that every layer is almost like Dante's Inferno, where like every layer, it was like, I'm going to put this enormity of pain upon you. And you have to say yes to existence when the body is screaming panic. Like, I can't control anything. I don't know what's happening. I just want to be out. And you have to just breathe through it and say, yes. And then you get to the next gate and it gets even more punishing. And you have to say, yes. And then you get to the center after you finally kind of breathe through it. And you are just absolutely dumbfounded, speechless.

• 1:21:01Bryan Johnson?

  At the exquisite and magnificent nature of existence. Like, just, our minds cannot understand it. And so I'm sure people who are listening to me speak, they're struggling to connect. Like, what is he talking about? And how do I relate to that? You can't. You can't convey through words, but you just leave that. And you're so humbled and so appreciative that we are alive. It's like, you just weep. Like, you just, I was speechless for, I don't know how long, but it's like that. It's like, as a species, we just say yes more fully than anything we've ever done before. And that, to me, is it, is like, that's the beauty of this moment.

• 1:21:47Rich Roll?

  The moment is all there is. We live our lives captured, you know, rehashing the past or lost in imagining a future that hasn't happened yet. And we're very rarely actually present for the only thing that is real, which is like what's happening right now, you know? That's a form of insanity that is, has an evolutionary advantage. It allows us to, you know, kind of live and thrive and procreate and all the like. But it's fundamentally blind to the true nature of what actually is, you know, which is interesting. And, you know, my experiences with a version of what you just shared, you know, like mimic that in that way.

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  It just gives you this profound humility and appreciation. And you're flirting with a sort of understanding of that reality while also appreciating that you can't, you can't actually grasp it. We never got to the bottom of Kate's discomfort with being seen and a theory of mind.

• 1:22:52Speaker 04

  Well, isn't that a nice reflective of reality? Maybe we'll never get to the bottom of it.

• 1:22:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're deflecting right now.

• 1:23:00Speaker 04

  I know, but like, you know? Yeah, I don't know. I, I'm really good at being the space between objects rather than the object itself. And I think we live in a world that views things as objects. But I'm someone who says, how can I influence the room such that people might not even notice my involvement or my presence? Obviously, now I'm stepping more into this object-related role. But traditionally, I've been much more of the space. And so I'm much more like in your head, in his head, trying to facilitate a certain vibe within the world. But that does make it hard for me to be seen by others, but also for me to see myself.

• 1:23:41Rich Roll?

  So you have a sibling who's an Olympic athlete. Did you grow up in Australia? Where in Australia?

• 1:23:46Speaker 04

  And do you know where Brisbane is? Like a 10 to 12 hour drive north. So kind of right in between the middle of Australia and the very top, so far north Queensland.

• 1:23:55Rich Roll?

  But like Olympic athlete sibling, so I imagine, I'm projecting, but like, some discipline in the household, some expectations that parents who raised you to be achievement oriented.

• 1:24:09Speaker 04

  Yes and no. They immigrated from Bosnia. So more of an immigrant child mindset where we felt we needed to do them justice for everything they gave up to move to Australia and give us such a fortunate life. My sister is also 6'5". And so from a very young age, both her and my brother were really into basketball. And so our whole lives centered around basketball and getting them to practice and driving. My parents were extremely dedicated and never like letting them miss a game. But, I mean, Brian just went home to Australia to meet my parents. What's your sense on discipline?

• 1:24:46Rich Roll?

  Or just the impact of her upbringing, like what you noticed and saw?

• 1:24:51Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:52Rich Roll?

  That contributes to her character and sense of self? Or failure of legibility?

• 1:24:59Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  As you put it.

• 1:25:00Bryan Johnson?

  That's what it is. Kate was not legible to her family.

• 1:25:04Rich Roll?

  Invisible because your sibling was 6'5" and getting all the attention?

• 1:25:09Bryan Johnson?

  She's neurodivergent and her thought patterns are different. And she's difficult to understand. She expresses her ways, herself in ways that are not obvious. They don't fit into certain boxes or certain patterns. And so unless you really investigate and can kind of get your head around it. I went through her old bedroom and we went through her art books and school books. She is just a different person, like wildly different. Like even when we go out now, I always joke that, you know, she's like socially, you know, challenged. Because you'll see a bunch of women swapping gossip and Kate's just stunned. Like, she just can't, she just knows what to do. She's like speechless. And so you get her engaged on like a meaningful topic and she'll chime in on a certain thing,

• 1:25:53Bryan Johnson?

  but she just doesn't flow within society. And so I think, you know, I think she'll say this, that I was probably the first person to see her. When she showed up in my life, I was like, ah, I got you. Like, I understand this. And, you know, we would be in my office at Colonel and I would just say, talk. You know, and she'd be like, about what? I don't care. Just like, go. And she was able to explore like her expression of what she is, but no one had ever done that. And so I think that she's had a legibility problem her entire life, that she basically gave up on it. At the age, we met at your 23, 24.

• 1:26:29Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm, 25.

• 1:26:31Bryan Johnson?

  She had, she'd given up in terms of, you know, like, expecting that a person would understand her.

• 1:26:37Rich Roll?

  I see what you're saying.

• 1:26:38Bryan Johnson?

  So she was in this supportive capacity where she could show up and understand you and service you and be present for you and, and give you all the social signals of like, I understand the rules of the game and I'm going to be, you know, a good social partner. But if you flipped it, there was, it's very hard to get something out of her because she...

• 1:26:53Rich Roll?

  Is this a point of commonality, like a source of your bonding? Because I would imagine there might have been a legibility problem with you, Brian, growing up. I mean, you're a very unique individual. I don't know if you're neurodivergent or not, but you're certainly unique in your, in your wiring. And perhaps, you know, just a different kind of kid. I do have a, you know, a better understanding of how you were raised and the impact of that on the person that you've become. But now I'm starting to see like, maybe that's something that you share.

• 1:27:29Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:31Speaker 04

  I mean, the funny thing about Brian, also, one is when we met, it was just that, like, he, he just wanted to know more. Like, I didn't even feel particularly like understood initially because it's very hard to understand. But he just like, he was like, go, like, start giving me breadcrumbs. And every time I usually do that with someone, I get blank stares. And I like, I remember my very first memory in life, I was like six years old. I was pacing around the top floor of my family home growing up. It was like a Queenslander where like, similar to Florida, where you have a lot of cyclones and so.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:03Speaker 04

  On stilts. And I was pacing around and I remember just being like, I've, I can, I can see that I'm being taught all these rules subconsciously by everyone. And none of the adults realize that they know, that they're being run by all these rules that they learnt a long time ago that no one's present to now.

• 1:28:23Rich Roll?

  We're all just playing out a program that was imprinted upon us.

• 1:28:26Speaker 04

  Exactly. And I was like, I want to write all these things down because I know I will forget them too. And I will become cemented in these rules that are oblivious to me. And I was noticing that the street signs were the popular kids' last names at school. And I was like, I'm walking into the system that's like pre-established, that is greater than me. And this frustration of how much we don't see what's right in front of us. The space between the objects rather than the objects themselves. And so I just remember wanting to write that down, but never quite being able to communicate to the people around me. Like, do you guys see this and feel like they could understand? Then Brian rolls around 25 years later, or 20 years later, and we're interfacing.

• 1:29:07Speaker 04

  And I'm kind of just like, I'll, I'll take a gamble because you gave me the space to say something. Can you see what I see? And then we slowly, you know, walked into this world of where we're at now, where we're saying, hey, we'll give up our anonymity, our individual identity as human beings become symbols because we see the same picture and like the world being run by this certain algorithm.

• 1:29:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, so the legibility issue being a young person who's seeing things differently is trying to connect with other individuals who aren't really understanding you. And so then there's a withdrawal, like, I guess I'm, I'm on a solo mission here. And better to just, you know, kind of keep quiet.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 1:29:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:47Speaker 04

  Precisely.

• 1:29:48Rich Roll?

  That makes sense.

• 1:29:48Bryan Johnson?

  Like, that's the entirety, like, you maybe now see our pattern, right? Like, that experience she had at six is what I've been experiencing the past couple of years. And we were both just like, wait a second. The world is structured a certain way that makes no sense in the context of AI, like, no sense. Isn't this obvious? Like all the rules and we're like, we gotta change the situation because these rules don't make any sense. And people here say this are like, you guys are fucked up. What are you talking about? Right, like, I'm gonna give you all the reasons why that is an unacceptable way to view the world. But for Kate and I, we're just like, oh, like, this is so clear.

• 1:30:33Speaker 04

  And specifically that we need to help people create the systems that they're gonna be able to survive this next thing. Like, we'll be fine, right? Everyone will be fine. But we're not set up in a way where we have support systems, value systems, ideologies, beliefs that will allow us to usher in and not panic as AI upheavals our societal rules. And we're left with what ties us together. And so we're like, can we build some infrastructure and some ideological thinking to help keep us, our brains intact as we go through this transition, which we think can anchor on prioritize the fact that you're alive and hold on to that for dear life. Let go of the politics, let go of the wanting status and fame and capitalism and money in

• 1:31:16Speaker 04

  your bank account to go up and just hold on to those close to you and your existence and say, that's our most priority asset. And we won't give it up for anything else.

• 1:31:25Bryan Johnson?

  So there's, there's an example, this, I'm, I'm gonna give an attempt at this explanation. There's a professor from University of Chicago who has this theory called unichtext, where she says, social media has basically flattened context where before this, if you went to church, you behaved in a church setting. If you were home, you're a home setting, right? So you, you wore different masks, you had different mannerisms and behaviors in those settings. And now it's because social media knocks down all those walls and it's just one unichtext. It has this side effect where we now live in a perpetually comparative world. Where you're, you're never isolated in these small groups, but you're compared across the spectrum.

• 1:32:08Bryan Johnson?

  That creates this intense pressure, this psychological pressure. And then two is that everything turns negative. So in a private setting, the example she uses, I believe, is I can say, I really enjoy chicken enchiladas. And the person's like, that's cool. But if you post that on social media, people are like, I don't care. You gotta tell me who's racist. Right? Because they like enchiladas. And so it turns into like these really sharp takes, which then creates this perception, the world is very bad. And so she, like, the point to that, I think for me is that if a person in the modern world says, I kinda feel bad about life, I kinda feel bad about myself. I don't know why, I just like, I don't feel good, you know?

• 1:32:48Bryan Johnson?

  And so the, the tectonic plates are shifting underneath the feet of humans. And we don't know what's happening, because we can't quite put our fingers on it. We just know we feel stuff that makes us feel different. And so that's what we're trying to get at is as technology continues to move fast, we kinda slip into the psychosis where we can't quite orient ourselves to say like, who are we? What are we doing? Where's safe? Where's connection? And that's why we think that spirituality is the path is like, there's this open question, what does it mean to be connected? And to have a spiritual experience, what does it mean to be spiritual?

• 1:33:29Bryan Johnson?

  And it's kind of the first opening in kind of 2000 years since Jesus was here of like, because you've had Buddha, you know, some big figures like Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, where they kind of set these big structures. But right now is this opening for society of like, what is spirituality? And like, we're trying to poke at this question of like, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean to exist? What do you value? Why? How do you behave? How do you relate to others? And so we're really trying to get our minds around this. And that's why we're experimenting with all these approaches is like, we think it's really open, like very open for the first time in a very long time.

• 1:34:08Rich Roll?

  I actually really love that. And I think that that

• 1:34:12Rich Roll?

  gets to the very heart of what initiated this journey and this obsession, you know, in the first place? I mean, I have a theory of mind for you, Brian. I have no idea if it's accurate, but I want to share it with you because I think it's relevant to what you just, what you just said. My theory is that you were somebody who suffered a tremendous amount of trauma as a young person. You grew up in a chaotic environment of lack in poverty. You didn't have a dad. You were indoctrinated into the Mormon faith. And you dutifully, you know, kind of showed up as, as a, you know, good citizen in that community.

• 1:34:55Rich Roll?

  At some point, you questioned the faith and broke ranks with your community. You were like othered, right? And this alienated you and exiled you, not only from the church, but from the broader community and ultimately your nuclear family. And so there's a tremendous amount of pain that I think you carry and that you're trying to heal and make sense of.

• 1:35:23Rich Roll?

  That is a consequence of a set of circumstances that were extremely difficult. To heal that, your first impulse was, well, let me transcend my environment. And in a sort of, I don't know if it was, I'll show them, but like, I'm gonna make, make, you know, I'm gonna make my own way in the world. You go out, you become this very successful entrepreneur, you make a lot of money, get a lot of attention for that. And you, you know, enjoy, enjoy the spoils of all of that, only to realize like, oh, this actually didn't heal me and maybe the way I initially thought it might, because I'm just following blueprint 1.0, which is power, property and prestige.

• 1:36:09Rich Roll?

  Only to discover that it, it has betrayed its promise, right? You still have this hole in your soul. In the Mormon faith,

• 1:36:19Rich Roll?

  according to that blueprint, you live your life in a certain way and you are promised this beautiful afterlife. All those questions are answered for yourself. All you have to do is like act accordingly. That being stripped away, you fill it first with material things, realizing that's not working. What am I gonna do now? There's sort of a bereftness, a depression, perhaps a bit of an existential crisis. And what I've seen you do is attempt to fill it.

• 1:36:49Rich Roll?

  Maybe not initially with some version of spirituality, a sense of a higher power, a surrender to, you know, a humble sense of powerlessness in the vastness of the universe and trying to find comfort in some kind of spiritual tenants to hang on to. But instead, to deny the prospect of death altogether, because it's so ultimately terrifying. If there is no afterlife, as I was told in the Mormon church, and we don't know what it is, I can't, I short circuit on that. So what I'm gonna do is create a life in which I don't have to think about it, because I'm gonna do all these things that's gonna allow me to sidestep it and prevent it.

• 1:37:30Rich Roll?

  What I think you have now matured into is a recognition on some level, maybe not, you're not gonna admit it of, of like, perhaps mortality is inescapable. But in the midst of that, and maybe as a consequence of some of these, you know, alternative experiences you've had with psychedelics, in appreciation for some version of bespoke faith in something larger than yourself. So how does that land? Am I like way off the reservation with that? Kate, what do you think? Like, is this a, is this a reductive explanation to help me make sense of, you know, Brian's mind?

• 1:38:09Speaker 04

  Do you have anything to say?

• 1:38:10Bryan Johnson?

  I would love to hear your take.

• 1:38:11Speaker 04

  I figured that you would. Um, I think he's like 20 times more complicated than that. Like I spend every single second of my day decoding people from five seconds of information. There are still things that just don't add up. Like Brian was also captain of the football team, high school captain, what do you call it when you're like?

• 1:38:33Bryan Johnson?

  City club president, yeah?

• 1:38:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, I don't know, some mayor position. Like, didn't have any qualms with Mormonism until he went on his mission. So what I, I agree that a large portion of what propels Brian into the position that he's in right now is this, this historical context. I don't even wanna call it trauma, because it's very hard to actually look back and truly pick up the tangible fingerprints of trauma. And you know, that's obviously a really complicated word.

• 1:39:07Rich Roll?

  But you know, he, the video that you made where you visited your father is a very beautiful video, but I think it was, it's, it's, it's pretty revealing, you know, it provided some context for that relationship.

• 1:39:19Rich Roll?

  Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you.

• 1:39:20Speaker 04

  It's almost like, you know how you can arrive at something from the top down, the bottom up? Like, for example, Brian does therapy through his body, like he's very somatic. And he arrives at same conclusions as me through physical experience and the moving of his atoms in the world. Whereas I do that through being alone, thinking, processing, analyzing, getting data points, contrasting them until I find the overlap. And so if you could say it's entirely, you know, context trauma driven, or you can say it's entirely analysis until he came at the conclusion that he's at right now. Like, I don't think it's one or the other. I've gone so deep on, with it on him that even now, I'm, I still put my hands up on

• 1:40:04Speaker 04

  like, there's only so much I can understand or, or structure together into a coherent, pretty story that has a very clear through line. It's like most people like that. I think weirdly Brian escapes that pigeonholing, bucketing, you know, paradigm.

• 1:40:19Rich Roll?

  Okay. What do you think?

• 1:40:21Bryan Johnson?

  I mean, at first, I appreciate the attempt. That's cool. My lived experience of myself is I wake up every day and I try to shed my skin. And I say, what do I think is true?

• 1:40:37Bryan Johnson?

  And in that contemplation, I'm willing to basically eliminate everything in my life that is not true. And that's my lived experience as I've tried to crawl through because I feel like, you know, I was born into a system. I had to experience that system. I had to some point question the system. And if you look at the stages of my life, I've changed pretty radically, pretty quickly over short periods of time. And I still have that same kind of velocity. And so that's, uh, maybe I've said that multiple times in our discussion today, I'm just ultimately trying to string together. I give myself some kind of constraint, seven words as a budget, and you can say what is true to you.

• 1:41:17Bryan Johnson?

  And anything more than that is verbose and garbage. And so you have to distill reality into those seven words. Otherwise, I'm in an intelligible track. But it's very hard, it's very hard for me to see myself outside of that, of course, my own subject experience.

• 1:41:33Rich Roll?

  I understand.

• 1:41:34Speaker 04

  Can I, can I ask you something, Brian? How's it feel to hear that synopsis?

• 1:41:40Rich Roll?

  Your facial expression changed. And so I sensed like there, there's some kind of emotional response there. Yeah, I don't want to, I don't, I don't mean to offend you.

• 1:41:51Bryan Johnson?

  Oh, not at all. Yeah, it's not offensive.

• 1:41:54Rich Roll?

  Or to presuppose anything either.

• 1:41:56Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it definitely feels, um, like Kate said, my lived experience feels much more complex than, as I, from your vantage point, I think the pattern matching is good, right? You're trying to piece together these, these elements.

• 1:42:10Rich Roll?

  Yes, this, this is what I see. This is what shows up on the internet. I'm trying to like, make sense of it. Like, how, how does this fit into something that I can understand? I can understand how he went from there to here.

• 1:42:20Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Yeah. So I guess intuitively, it, um, it doesn't, it doesn't match my internal lived experience of what I have. I understand from your perspective why you would think that. And I think that a lot of people make similar conclusions in looking at me. And I also don't want to say they're wrong, because I, I'm not quite sure how to express confidence of myself, right? Of my subjective experience. Some other, others oftentimes have the superpower of seeing you much more clearly than you can yourself. So I try to be very careful to never step on other people's insights, which may be the thing I, I need to hear or would be helpful to hear. So I'm,

• 1:43:00Bryan Johnson?

  I try to tread very carefully. But yeah, my lived experiences is, it's much more complicated than what others perceive.

• 1:43:07Rich Roll?

  Of course. Well, it always is going to be, you know, because everything is more complicated than our ability to like, reduce it to something that we can articulate in a few sentences.

• 1:43:16Speaker 04

  I think if I had to like summarize it, you know how when you do LLM creation, you're predicting next token? You know how like, it's like you could have-

• 1:43:23Rich Roll?

  Theoretically, I understand that, but I'm not like an AI scientist person.

• 1:43:26Speaker 04

  Me, me either, least of, least of all.

• 1:43:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I understand that, that much. I understand.

• 1:43:31Speaker 04

  The cat, you know, the dog jumped over the fence, the fence would being the predictive word. When I try, I've gotten much better at predicting what Brian's next word will be, but I still am unable to be extremely good at predicting the next word. And so that's the part that I'm with you. I do this analysis on him all the time. He hears it all the time. We talk about, I always say like, the comment section is actually the, always the most right section ultimately. Like, it's the consolidation of the humankind into one space. And it says something about the way that we all, it's, it's collective, collective intelligence and consciousness, the comment section in, in places. But still, I'm unable to predict the next word. So all that to say that, for some

• 1:44:10Speaker 04

  reason, his, his essence is far more complicated than I think most people. And I think it's what he said, the shedding constantly, constantly rebirthing himself. Every couple of months, it feels like a new Brian arrives and we're all just like, who is it going to be? We don't know.

• 1:44:33Rich Roll?

  You're in this constant process of like, change, evolution, growth, and, and transformation, right? Like, you're engaged with change as a, as a relationship, not as a thing you did or planned to do or in the middle of doing, but just as a, as a, as a way of being in the world, right? So many people struggle with trying to make a change. All of us want to be better in a certain way. I wish I could do that, or I plan to do that. Uh, most people fall short. Not usually because of a lack of information. It's because of systems or because of, uh, emotional reasons, et cetera. So from an emotional, psychological perspective, what is it that you think you could share for

• 1:45:18Rich Roll?

  somebody who has struggled to make a change, but feels strongly about like wanting to make a change? That would be helpful to the average person?

• 1:45:29Bryan Johnson?

  For me, the singular thing I care about is being correct from the vantage point of the year 2500. That when they look back-

• 1:45:40Rich Roll?

  I'm not going to get a simple answer out of this guy. He's going to talk about like 50 years into the future.

• 1:45:44Bryan Johnson?

  So like, but, but the reason why that's helpful to me is because, you know, with that distance of time, we have sobriety to look back at historical figures and assess their wisdom in the context where they, they could see something that was extremely unique and hard, like invisible, zero. And so why I use this as an example is so much of what keeps people locked in to their versions is they're scared of what other people say. They're scared of their reactions of their immediate family, their coworkers, of the comment section. Like, so many of my smart friends, you know, we're in similar chat groups. And really powerful, smart, capable people are legitimately

• 1:46:28Bryan Johnson?

  fearful of the comment section. And it keeps them in a certain state. And so the reason why the 21st century frame is useful for me, and I think for others, is it tells you to not give a fuck what anyone thinks, right? That basically the starting premise is, everybody in the 21st century is wrong. And there's probably like, you know, a few hundred of us that maybe get through with a kernel of truth. Like some kind of insight that carries over the ages. Otherwise, most things that exist today will be viewed as extremely primitive. They're just like, we're puppeting behaviors that we were given. So to me, that's it, is like, you want to unshackle yourself so

• 1:47:11Bryan Johnson?

  you can explore concepts and be a persona, like, you know, so much of, like, the, the lunacy of us online, is we're willing to do things that rain hell upon us, right? That are, that it's so outrageous. And anyone else who did it would just be clobbered by hate and dismissal. And they would worry about being ostracized by the tribe. And we're like, you know, we love it. It feeds us. Um, and so, yeah, I'd say that would be my advice to people is, is try to get yourself in a position where you don't get trapped by the influence of other people, because ultimately, it's a, it's

• 1:47:51Bryan Johnson?

  an illusion. Uh, that, that they don't represent the, the things you necessarily want. And if you can overcome that, then it gives you more space to say, I'm okay to ride through this and experiment with what I want to become.

• 1:48:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure. I mean, that's sort of an ephemeral idea, though. Like, I'm imagining the person who's like, just help me get over myself so I can lose those 10 pounds, you know, or like, like drilling it down into something practical. They wake up in the morning, like, what am I going to do differently today to set myself up for success?

• 1:48:20Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Rich Roll?

  In the wake of, you know, relapses and, and, you know, shortcomings, et cetera.

• 1:48:25Bryan Johnson?

  Okay, so here's something very practical. Uh, so like, I had a, I had a behavioral problem. Uh, I ate a lot of food at nighttime, 7:00 PM. The day that would come, I would be dealing from all the stress of building a startup. I had little, three little kids, a challenging personal relationship, and chronic depression. You stack those on top of each other, and at 7:00 PM, I'm powerless to stop myself. So like, if I have a box of graham crackers, I'm going to eat the whole goddamn thing, right? Or like, if there's a pan of brownies, not just one, it's a whole pan, right? It's the way I soothe myself to deal with my pain. So I try to-

• 1:48:55Rich Roll?

  Share that. Go ahead, keep going.

• 1:48:57Bryan Johnson?

  So I, I, I couldn't stop this self-destructive behavior. And of course, when I did that, it made me miserable, right? I couldn't sleep. And then I woke up the next day, I felt awful. It made my depression worse. I got fat. Like, everything was awful. And so what I realized was that when I woke up in the morning, even if I was, you know, uh, beat down, my willpower, my spirit was as high as it's going to get. Like, I am going to change myself. I am going to exercise. I'm going to make good decisions. I'm not going to do that thing tonight again. But then as the day tapers on, different versions of Brian come out, right? And so by the time 7:00 PM comes, it's a literally a different Brian. It's a different biochemical Brian. That biochemical Brian does not have the capacity to say no. He's just like, he's too worn down. And so the system I created, as I said,

• 1:49:40Bryan Johnson?

  morning Brian is my best Brian, and he gets to have the authority to make decisions in my life. So that means evening Brian, who comes on duty around 5:00 PM and then hits his peak at 7:00 PM, he does not have authorization to eat food, ever. It's just, it's out. He cannot eat food, period. And that kind of firm rule for me was like, really helpful, because then I could break myself out to my different Bryans. But to, to give myself space to say, I don't need to, need to feel shameful about evening Brian. I don't need to punish him. He doesn't need to feel guilt. Like, he's just doing his best with the situation he has. But this setting that firm rule, and that has led to my ability now where I have absolute, perfect control with what I put in my body. Like,

• 1:50:20Bryan Johnson?

  absolute perfect. I do not eat anything that does not nourish my body. And I'm at the proper weight. I'm the proper biomarkers. I feel great about food. I don't have an eating disorder. But to have this kind of perfection is like one of my life goals. It's like, it's unbelievably empowering to just say, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to eat bad stuff. It's, it's real. So separate yourself into your different versions, um, make decisions and then follow through on those actions, because, uh, it is the easiest way to set rules yourself. You, you never want to put yourself in a situation where you're making a call in the moment.

• 1:50:51Rich Roll?

  This is another version of basically acknowledging your negative inner monologue that doesn't have your best interest at heart. First of all, realizing that there's you and there's your inner monologue. Like, these are two different things. Uh, not pretending it doesn't exist, acknowledging it, but just saying, but disempowering it, I guess, on some level. Uh, and then recognizing that like, discipline is freedom, you know, in this sort of way.

• 1:51:13Bryan Johnson?

  Exactly right.

• 1:51:13Rich Roll?

  I mean, is this, is, would you, do you share that? Do you have a different means for this? Like, you're, you're now, you're the chaotic creative person who seems maybe a little more resistant to the notion that your life should be driven by all of these restrictive, you know, kind of tenants. How are you wired to like, navigate through all of this?

• 1:51:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, I definitely wouldn't be this disappointed if it wasn't for the thousands of women watching. Like, it's not like I-

• 1:51:40Rich Roll?

  Also the communal pressure, the, as an accountability partner.

• 1:51:44Speaker 04

  Exactly. Yeah, I haven't reached some like, next level of self-control here.

• 1:51:47Rich Roll?

  You have to do it because like, there's an expectation. There's an external, uh, layer on top of this that's informing it. Interesting. You said that eradicating death is the most urgent and important issue of our time. Um, but setting aside notions of, of-

• 1:52:05Rich Roll?

  Lifespan extension, immortality, et cetera. I think that we can all agree, and this goes back to like, systems, that our culture has a very unhealthy relationship with death. I have aging parents right now. I have a mother with dementia who's in a memory care unit. And the whole kind of industrial complex around aging and death is one of the most inhumane things I've ever seen. And the degree of suffering is off the charts. Not to mention the kind of economic incentives that are driving all of this. And it was interesting, I recently visited my mother, and it was in the midst of having to put down one of our dogs,

• 1:52:48Rich Roll?

  who was very, very old and was suffering, that our culture accepts as compassionate, right? And it led me to thinking about like, why we contextualize it different with human beings? When these people really have no quality of life whatsoever.

• 1:53:06Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:06Rich Roll?

  Our priority is to nonetheless extend it. And I think that stems from an unhealthy relationship or understanding of death and what this signifies. That is, that is kind of a disease in our society. So I'm curious, like, setting aside like, okay, death is not happening, to acknowledging that death is a reality, you know? How do you think about that? Like, how we interface with the notion of, of death? And how we could perhaps have a healthier perspective on it? For the people we care about?

• 1:53:40Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah. Both my parents are in their mid seventies. They're experiencing aging. And I watch it happen in real time. And it's excruciating to watch. It's so unpleasant. It's so uncomfortable to watch it. And I've had this conversation with my dad as well of raising the topic with him in ways I haven't before. Dad, how do you feel about death? And dad, have you reconciled with death? And dad, have we talked about everything you and I want to talk about? Before death? Do you have things you want to say? And do I have things I want to say?

• 1:54:25Bryan Johnson?

  And Kate has been instrumental. Like, I had the sweetest moment with my dad. We were having a conversation. We retraced my childhood and were frank in ways that we had never been before. And we were in a studio. And Kate was bridging the conversation. And she said something to my dad of something like, Brian doesn't express himself to you because he's played this role in your life where he's tried to be protective and supportive and always there. And he hasn't taken on the role of being a son.

• 1:55:08Bryan Johnson?

  And my dad got into a position where he said, I'm open to, I'm open, I want to hear from you. And for whatever reason, these sounds started happening inside the studio. And we weren't quite sure what was happening. And the only thing I could do is just be quiet. I had nothing to say to my dad. And after I said, I, when I kind of like understood what was happening, I said, Dad, I want you to understand what silence feels like. You know, and like, it's like being in middle school.

• 1:55:52Bryan Johnson?

  Like, I'm going to break down, I cry. When like, I'm waiting for my dad. And he's not there. And, um, like, so many times where he's just not there. And, um, he said, I want you to feel it. Silence. And, um, to his credit, he did. He sat in it. And I think we were able to, um, you know, broach that because death is kind of in the backdrop now of our conversation. And so there's this beauty of reconciliation that happens between humans when you're faced with that.

• 1:56:37Bryan Johnson?

  You get this sobriety. So I, I certainly haven't reconciled with it. My default disposition is defiance. That, you know, I'm going to personally save my father from death through all these things you're doing, and my mother. And I'm much less accepting of it than maybe one would expect. But I also, in being open to it, it's allowed me to have experiences and conversations that are healing for both of us.

• 1:57:13Rich Roll?

  I appreciate the openness, that answer. I think that's worthy of deeper interrogation on your part. You know, I think there's a lot there.

• 1:57:25Bryan Johnson?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:25Rich Roll?

  The intolerability, the unacceptability of it, you know? As an animating influence on your daily life now, in the present moment, you know? It's beautiful. I think that's a great place to end it for today. I'll end it by saying that I appreciate, again, like you, opening your home and, and being so vulnerable and open with me. I have a great fondness for you. Like, I don't know you that well. We've spent some hours together. And I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about, you know, who you are as a human being and who you guys are as a couple. Part of that is your fault because of the way you present, you know, on the internet. You're inviting, you know, that kind of misunderstanding on some level.

• 1:58:10Rich Roll?

  But I appreciate the service that you're performing. And I certainly enjoy watching you perform all these experiments. And, you know, I think from a spirit of trying to better understand things so that we can understand things better. There's so much confusion on the internet right now. Like, you know, it's just, it just, everything's flip flopping every single way. And we need ballasts. And we need stewards, you know, of, of information in this age of skepticism and the denigration of institutions and the distrust of experts, et cetera. Like, where do we find our footing? And behind the, the kind of P T Barnum entertainment value

• 1:58:53Rich Roll?

  of what you guys provide, I think that that is, is, is the true sensibility of who you guys are. And my hope is that I've helped to underscore that for you. So, thank you for sharing this afternoon with me, you guys.

• 1:59:07Bryan Johnson?

  Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed it.

• 1:59:09Rich Roll?

  Cheers.

• 1:59:10Speaker 04

  Thanks for putting a spotlight on female health.

• 1:59:12Rich Roll?

  Awesome. And keep us posted on the women's health front, please. I think what you're doing is, is vital and important. And I'm here to celebrate it.

• 1:59:20Speaker 04

  Yay. Thank you.

• 1:59:22Rich Roll?

  Thanks, you guys.

• 1:59:23Speaker 04

  Thanks.

• 1:59:23Rich Roll?

  Peace.